SMS Text Messaging & Youth Debt One

In the Philippines by Pao|o · 2005-01-09 02:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

In the Philippines we've (kinda) solved this problem by having prepaid SIM cards. They make up the bulk of accounts in my country seeming most of population can only pay on a staggered/installment basis. Maybe America's youth should do the same.

Re:In the Philippines by retartedted · 2005-01-09 02:34 · Score: 1, Insightful

well i dont know if SIM cards work the same in the Philippines as they do here in Afghanistan but every time you get a new SIM card your phone# changes. And for us Americans that is unacceptable. and just downright annoying.

So far in the past few months I have had 2 of those cheap SIM cards break on me, so i sent out the e-mails and made the phone calls informing people of my number change. i felt like an idiot child who broke his toy. 99% of americans would never go for this with their primary cell phone. Parents buying these for their kids MIGHT work. but i doubt it. high school kids are alittle more technologically advanced now.

the cell phone family plans from major carriers in place in america are much easier for parents to manage then to continually purchase SIM cards and phone cards. it may just boil down to parents scolding their kids and getting them to MANAGE time and money. GASP!

p.s. for those of you unfamiliar with a SIM card, you get a cheap little credit card looking deal and pop out a little section of it and insert it into your phone (underneath the battery). your phone number pops up, then you load minutes on it with another prepaid phone card.
Re:In the Philippines by Daengbo · 2005-01-09 02:41 · Score: 1

My coworker in Thailand always used to message back home to the Philippines, and then he'd fill up on cards when he went back or have his wife buy them and mail them to him.
I live in Korea now, and I get the feeling (by how much it's used) that text messaging is free with cell service. All I'm sure about is that the teens seem to spend their entire day doing it, so it has to be cheap.

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Re:In the Philippines by frisket · 2005-01-09 02:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

"Bills"? What bills fer fuxsake? Everywhere else in the world, kids cellphones are on a "pay as you go" basis, where you buy prepaid credit in any corner store. It's impossible for anyone under 18 and not in full-time employment to get a monthly-bill phone, for blindingly obvious reasons.
Only complete and utter congential cretins like the US telcos would think of giving monthly billable credit to kids. Hardly surprising that the economy is falling to pieces along with the social structure :-)
Will the last person to leave the USA please turn out the lights?
Re:In the Philippines by Ithika · 2005-01-09 02:46 · Score: 1

Inform your network that you're changing and they can give you a ID number (I don't remember its specific name) which identifies your phone number, so you can tell your new network - or even the same one - when you switch. My girlfriend's switched networks 3 times in as many years without changing numbers; it's easy.

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Re:In the Philippines by The+Dark+P · 2005-01-09 02:52 · Score: 1

When he said pre-paid sim cards, I presume he meant pre-paid phone accounts. You don't replace your sim card each time, you buy the sim card and top up the account. In the UK most kids with mobiles use prepaid accounts. Hence you can't get into debt because you can't send messages or phone people without credit. Phones are topped up through little machines in mobile shops, buying prepaid numbered cards with a certain value or in the case of my bank, through the ATM.
Re:In the Philippines by yasth · 2005-01-09 03:01 · Score: 1

They don't get monthly billable credit to kids. They can't legally enter the contract. Generally what happens is they whine at (see convince) their parents to add a line (costs about $10/mo (eur 7.67)) to the parents credit based plan,. They are given a firm lecture that they will have to pay for anything they use (except of couse free nights and weekends, and free mobile to mobile that is pretty standard on these plans) over some number of minutes. Of course most of the parents probably have no idea of text messaging, so they probably don't even mention it.

Child then proceeds to go wild. (often times just with voice minutes, but that makes a poor article) Bill comes, grounding ensues.

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Re:In the Philippines by bryanp · 2005-01-09 03:02 · Score: 1

Only complete and utter congential cretins like the US telcos would think of giving monthly billable credit to kids.

They don't. Their parents have the cell phone account and supply phones to their kids. Stupid, I know. It's just like a kid running up a huge long distance bill on his parent's phone. Except that unlike my childhood they generally don't have to worry about dad beating their ass with a belt if it happens. A pity if you ask me.

Hardly surprising that the economy is falling to pieces along with the social structure :-)

The last time I checked our economy was still the envy of most of the world. At least that's what I hear from the millions of Mexicans trying to sneak in.

As for social structure, I can't entirely disagree with you. Things would probably be better if we weren't turning in to such a nanny state.

Honestly, mostly things look pretty decent where I live. But I suppose you can be excused: US bashing is the in thing these days - all the cool kids are doing it.

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Re:In the Philippines by Zontar+The+Mindless · 2005-01-09 03:24 · Score: 1

> Only complete and utter congential cretins like
> the US telcos would think of giving monthly
> billable credit to kids.

This phenomenon is neither new nor limited to the USA. Not long after my arrival here in Oz in mid-2002, I got the privilege of loaning my new teenage stepson some money to pay his mobile bill, most of which consisted of charges for text messages.

(He did pay me back a month or two later, BTW.)

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Re:In the Philippines by bev_tech_rob · 2005-01-09 04:31 · Score: 1

We did the same setup at our house. Luckily our sales person at Alltel advised us of the text charges if that service is used and we promptly promised to stick a foot in our boy's a** if we found a big charge for texting. Luckily, he is very mature for a 16 year old and appreciates what can happen (I hope) :)

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Re:In the Philippines by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 06:20 · Score: 1

The last time I checked our economy was still the envy of most of the world.
Do you know what a Ponzi scheme is? Take a look at the budget deficit and get back to me.
At least that's what I hear from the millions of Mexicans trying to sneak in.
That doesn't prove it's the envy of the world, just that it's better than Mexixo or any of its other neighbours. Not exactly a prestigious class to be the valedictorian of.

--
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Re:In the Philippines by CoolCat · 2005-01-09 06:32 · Score: 1

In Norway (and most of the other countries I've travelled), they solve this by giving users single SIM card and have them to prepay (like recharging) credits (recharge cards can be bought from virtually everywhere, even via SMS and internet). Works like a charm for people who cannot afford/control the bill.
Re:In the Philippines by Flaming+Foobar · 2005-01-09 09:09 · Score: 1

The last time I checked our economy was still the envy of most of the world.
You are mistaken. See this forum for a bunch of Europeans discussing the American economy.

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Re:In the Philippines by penguinoid · 2005-01-09 11:03 · Score: 1

Will the last person to leave the USA please turn out the lights?

No need, we're already walking in the dark here.

As for our horrid economy, please tell me how much you know about foreign countries? Don't worry about the economy, it will, as far as I can see, improve drastically now that the election is finished.

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Re:In the Philippines by rainman_bc · 2005-01-09 12:42 · Score: 1

Best part is under common law (in Canada at least) a minor cannot enter into a contract. A minor, at any time, can reneg on a contract with no penalty (although the court has been know to grant exceptions to that rule)

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Re:In the Philippines by lachlan76 · 2005-01-09 14:32 · Score: 1

You don't replace the SIM card, what you do is you go to a store, and then they give you a card with a phone number and code on it, which you call, and then give the code to the phone company. This just adds however many dollars you payed for to the account.

It works fine for me.
Re:In the Philippines by gweihir · 2005-01-09 18:05 · Score: 1

Best part is under common law (in Canada at least) a minor cannot enter into a contract.

Same in Germany. Banks and telcos have tried to give a credid line to kids, in the hopes that their parents will pay. Many do, but there are now several court decisions that there is no legal obligation to pay back these debts, because the contracts are invalid.

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Re:In the Philippines by Flaming+Foobar · 2005-01-09 18:54 · Score: 1

I bow down before this "bunch of Europeans" on a forum called "Purple Motion."
That was just the first discussion group I Googled up. Had you actually bothered to READ what's written there, you might have realized they are actually quite well informed. Of course, on Slashdot, that's always a long shot...

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while true;do echo -e -n "\033[s\n\033[u\134_\033[B";done
Re:In the Philippines by bhtooefr · 2005-01-10 01:20 · Score: 1

I barely use my phone, FWIW. The only problem was that I used my Vision (Sprint's wireless web) service ONCE, and got $2.96 (296KiB) of charges, because it turned out we didn't have the trial for some reason, and didn't pay for monthly service.

Responsibility by AlexTheBeast · 2005-01-09 02:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

Wah, wah, wah.

You could say the same thing for cell phones in general.

I had to "work-off" my long distance phone bills in the BBS days...

You set the limits as a parent... and if the kid goes over it, he/she pays.

It's called growing up.

Re:Responsibility by beagle · 2005-01-09 02:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

Yup. I mean - oh, the horror of learning that things in life really aren't free!

This is a story?

PS - there was an article in the local paper recently about how "the fees add up fast." Indeed they do, and this is why I don't have many of these monthly-fee services.
Re:Responsibility by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-09 03:11 · Score: 1, Insightful

Sure being responsible is one part, but I think the article is trying to bring attention to a particular corporate practice.

The fees that cell phone companies love to raise seem to be the ones most customers are not likely to even notice that it existed in the first place, or not expect to be much. Going broke over just text messaging reeks of extortion.
Re:Responsibility by jo42 · 2005-01-09 05:56 · Score: 1

Even worse, the parents today just pay the frickin' bills regardless. What happened to telling this generation of spoiled brats "No."? $150+ corporate branded running shoes. $100+ a month cell phone bills. Are the parents getting kick-backs from the corporates crapping this stuff out? I don't think so... Just how far in debt is modern consumerist society anyway?
Re:Responsibility by nanosmurf · 2005-01-09 06:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

In July, I caught my twit of a summer-student/intern severely abusing her internet privileges. I couldn't fire her because she was a short-term contract employee and some other HR-policy crap. My first response was to cut her off, so I blocked all the IM traffic coming out of her computer. I gave her a what-for and put a parental blocker on her machine (she still needed some access to the net to do her job). She thought she was being secretive about the whole thing and HER FIRST RESPONSE was to pretend to type and work, all the while diddling her cell phone under the desk. When she switched to her cellphone she would spend ALL DAY msn'ing back and forth with her pals. I was rightly pissed off at first. There was nothing I could do unless I could prove it, and I couldn't prove it without violating a bunch of organizational privacy rules. But all was right with my world when she vapidly proclaimed at the lunch table one day that her recently arrrived monthly phone bill was roughly equivalent to her monthly pay. Easy come, easy go.

And she just didn't get it.

Still, it was quite a waste. Soured my opinion of summer-students all around.
Re:Responsibility by Jorrit · 2005-01-09 06:56 · Score: 1

Well cell phones are very useful for kids for emergency situations. i.e. they have to get from school (or another place) early for some reason. Also if the parents urgently need to contact the children if they can't manage to be somewhere in time. Here in Belgium most kids (more then 90%) have cell phones and they are allowed in schools (although you must turn them off in the classroom). I certainly plan for my kids to have a cellphone but I will make sure that it is only used when they really have to use it.

Greetings,

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Re:Responsibility by Sax+Maniac · 2005-01-09 07:12 · Score: 1

Me too. For one month. Then we used hacked phone card numbers. It was ridiculously easy. I remember the days of 4 or 5 digit combination customer ID/PINs that you could easily guess. You could have a computer do it if you really were lazy. Growing up is not using the stolen cards anymore. Oh wait, that was ANI...

--
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Re:Responsibility by Negatyfus · 2005-01-09 07:30 · Score: 1

Heheh, I was spoiled.

The only thing my father did when I ran up a phone bill of $500 or more, was take away the cables needed to connect the modem to the phone line. Of course, it goes without saying that I went out and secretly bought me new ones that I kept hidden. Unfortunately, it was much harder to hide the resulting subsequent phone bills.

Ahh, the sweet nostalgia of dial-up BBS addiction...
Re:Responsibility by Pope · 2005-01-09 07:55 · Score: 1

And I'll respond that people have been getting along without cellphones just fine for a *very* long time.

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Re:Responsibility by drsmithy · 2005-01-09 09:16 · Score: 1

Going broke over just text messaging reeks of extortion.
You have to remember these twits are sending hundreds, if not thousands of text messages *per day*. The problem isn't that they're getting ripped off, the problem is they're sending so many bloody messages.
Re:Responsibility by Cynikal · 2005-01-09 12:24 · Score: 1

exactly. considering you can get unlimited text messaging with most carriers, and the nameless one i work for makes it a point to offer it to new and existing customers repeatedly.

its the ones who still say "no we just wont use it, or we'll pay whatever 30 cents it adds to the bill" who get hit. and then they call in a few months later and say "my kid used all these text messages and my bill is $400, can i get a credit?"
Re:Responsibility by LucidBeast · 2005-01-09 12:25 · Score: 1

My ten year old daughter was the last one in her class to get a cell phone. But then again we live in the Nokia city (Espoo, Finland). Other kids got them few years earlier. Text messages are about 10 cents a pop (in US dollars here). Calling is pretty expensive, but I tell the kids not use the phone as a toy. Some kids do get into trouble, but in recent years it has become less of a problem since parents know that a potential problem exists. It is also possible to set a cap on the phone bill for a 1 euro or so. We used to have 10 euro cap on our eldest daughters phone, but dropped it since she never hit it.
Re:Responsibility by Brandybuck · 2005-01-09 12:30 · Score: 1

I had to "work-off" my long distance phone bills in the BBS days...

I remember that. It taught you very very quickly to make sure your modem hung up after the download was finished. You learned never to browse directories online. You learned to write usenet posts offline. Yada, yada, yada.

It's called growing up.

Back when I was a kid, growing up was a normal thing to do. But for some crazy ass reason or another it's now considered normal to blame everyone else except the child for childish actions. Too high of a phone bill? Blame text messaging! Too high of a credit card bill? Blame Visa and Mastercard! Kid came down with three different varieties of the clap over spring break? Blame Fort Lauderdale! Kid flunked out of college? Blame the Bush administration!

--
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Re:Responsibility by kz45 · 2005-01-09 13:12 · Score: 1

Going broke over just text messaging reeks of extortion

You could say that about anything. You know going into it that you have to pay for messaging. All the cellphone companies I have used (cingular,at&t wireless(before thay were bought by cingular, and now nextel) have made it blatently obvious that there is a charge per message (usually around .10).

I send around 500 messages a month and I didn't want a $50 phone bill so I switched to a messaging plan (Unlimited text messaging for $7.95 a month). I know almost all companies have similar plans.
Re:Responsibility by Matt_Joyce · 2005-01-09 15:14 · Score: 1

"I had to "work-off" my long distance phone bills in the BBS days..."

Too right mate, and that was before British Telecom had 'Best Friend' number etc.

The upgrade to 9600 would have saved me a fortune, but I just spent the same time online, just quicker.

heady days.
Re:Responsibility by cheekyboy · 2005-01-09 16:12 · Score: 1

more like the horror of scumass business charging 5000% markup profits! welcome to the real world.

150byte text message = 0.03 cents.

--
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Re:Responsibility by Jorrit · 2005-01-09 17:34 · Score: 1

Does that mean that your kids also don't get to work with computers and even paper? Humankind has been without those for a long time as well.

Greetings,

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Re:Responsibility by Arcane · 2005-01-10 13:09 · Score: 1

You realize that telling kids to "grow up" is also telling them to "take responsibility for their actions". Now that is just a pretty damn UN-American concept. Even the President and Congress don't have to take responsibility for their actions. ie. "Umm, I don't recall that incident, let me get back to you." "I never said Iraq was connected to 9/11, the American people misunderstood"

I have 2 x 15 year olds, if they go over their cell phone limits and it comes out of their lunch money... Talk/SMS or eat.

Solution by yasth · 2005-01-09 02:20 · Score: 1

OGO provides free SMS, and one IM service for 17.99.

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Re:Solution by Keruo · 2005-01-09 02:47 · Score: 2, Informative

> OGO provides free SMS, and one IM service for 17.99
get stuff free, pay only 17.99

<offtopic rant> that sentence pretty much describes why I hate internet today<br> 3-4 years ago you could actually find stuff that you need easily, like datasheets for components etc. now you get 100 hits for sites selling the datasheets and you have to dig hours to find what you need</offtopic rant>

sms costs 5 cents to send, so 17.99 gets you 360 sms from your phone and sore thumbs
in average month, that's about 12 messages per day, which is alot from my point of view, then again, I might not be the most active sms sender
apparently it's too hard for these kids to use the IM clients in phones which work over GPRS
much cheaper than sms if you have to send more than one message

--
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Re:Solution by yasth · 2005-01-09 03:10 · Score: 1

Eh forgive me I was typing swiftly. Regardless they have unlimited domestic text mesaging I am not certain where you see $.5 to send. (They also have unlimited email), of course there are other problems with it (mostly that it requires another phone number and most people send texts to well the mobile phone number in thier phonebook, not some other random number.

(as for datasheet problem, try -ing the payment mediums (-paypal and -visa generally work), honestly though most places that sell components generally have the datasheet certainly mouser, jamco, and digi-key do.)

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Re:Solution by HairyCanary · 2005-01-09 03:50 · Score: 1

The point, I believe, was that for the price of the OGO you can send 360 messages on your regular cell phone. That is important to consider, because the OGO cannot replace your cell phone, it is only a SMS/IM/E-Mail device.
Re:Solution by Trejkaz · 2005-01-09 10:08 · Score: 1

Another solution is to use prepaid cards. They may end up costing more, but it becomes impossible to build up a debt.

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Re:Solution by yasth · 2005-01-09 12:07 · Score: 1

Oh thanks, not thinking obviously

Even still SMS actually costs $.10 for most plans to send. Tmobile charges both sending receiving at $.05 so we end up with something like $.10 per sent.

So it ends up being 180 text messages/mo (or less if you have Cingular which is $.10 for every message sent or received). Which is fairly easily doable (esp. since most phones come with an IM client that burns text messages, (and I do mean burns something like 5-7 messages for a logon, more for refreshing the contact list, and of course one for every message, and the messages tend to be much shorter then SMS messages which tend to look more like short notes, "You want to go out at 8 to the movie" vs. "Hey," "Hey" "You free tonight" "yeah" "wanna go to a movie" "sure, what time" "8".)

If you have an IM/SMS crazed child though, well the OGO certainly removes some pain. (it also avoids that problem of prepaid cell service you want the child to always be able to contact home or the parents, but I haven't seen a prepaid plan that allows reservations or such).

Of course the other use that suggests itself is for working with the deaf or mute. Then it is a fine replacement for a cell phone.

--
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Shocking truth by DaKritter · 2005-01-09 02:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

Commercial services may cost money!

Shock horror.

Re:Shocking truth by ahknight · 2005-01-09 02:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's not even that, it's that they're using it wrong, too. For instance, with Sprint I can pay $10/mo. and get unlimited SMS messages. For $10. Screw this $800 crap, with just a little planning and a little forethought they wouldn't pay more than $60 a month for the whole package.

It's just another sign that people are stupid.
Re:Shocking truth by thegenerousjew · 2005-01-09 03:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

The above post is modded insightful. Will I be modded insightful or funny for pointing out it should be modded funny and not insightful?

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Re:Shocking truth by Carewolf · 2005-01-09 04:04 · Score: 1

You might want to check again. We have had them in Denmark for a year now. It started with a prepaid number of SMS per month (like 100 or so), but then one provided upped the number of prepaid to one billion, and since then many subscription based services for teenagers have free SMS.
Re:Shocking truth by cammoblammo · 2005-01-09 06:55 · Score: 1

Yes.

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Cogito, ergo sig.
Re:Shocking truth by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-09 08:31 · Score: 1, Insightful

Well, or simply poor, uneducated, or in some cases, suffering from being a minority. Sometimes it's easy forget what a difference growing up a lily-white middle-class environment makes to even knowing what options are available, let alone having the knowledge or experience to be choosing them.

I have a number of younger lady friends (for me anyone under 30 yo ;-), yes, all over 18, tfa!) who consistently were hitting me up for geld for their phone bills (which kept going delinquint resulting in having service being shutoff, then having hellacious restore fees - which they would ask me for help with the next month). They happen to be Black aka African-American and on the poor end of the US economic scale. I finally sat down with a couple of them and went over the last couple of months of phone bills. My observations include:

1. They didn't shop around for carriers - they typically used the same phone store their friends used which was in their neighborhood. They generally didn't venture out of their neighorhoods anyway, but certainly not to chase phone deals. Most of the phone stores in the "hood" were way overpriced compared to stores in "white" neighborhoods.

2. They always took the cheapest *up front* plan with minimal minutes. It seemed cheaper based on the cash in their pockets at that moment. Free phones were also a selling point but sometimes didn't give them the lowest TCO.

3. They always took the no-contract, month-to-month plans despite having been with the same carrier for over a year or two anyway, thinking they didn't want to be "locked-in" or "tied down" even though they *were* already by default (by the monthly bills and as long-term customers). Sometimes this was basic with little or no credit they weren't allowed to take cheaper contracts! Only in America you *have to* have credit to get a phone at a reasonable price; not the case anywhere else in the world BTW.

4. They always went way over their monthly minutes and most of their bills ballooned from overage charges. Their monthly bills were often hundreds more than even I have. I'd have to go 3 months on both land and cell bills to hit what one girl's monthly was - and that's with me running a business on those phones.

5. Most could have saved hundreds of dollars simply by signing up for a time contract and paying an extra $10-20 per month for more minutes - if they could "qualify" the credit test or negotiate otherwise.

6. Many of them routinely overextended themselves in other regular expense despite being far from wealthy (maybe the cause, maybe the effect :-( ). They all live month-to-month on the ragged edge. Most have unacceptably (to most people) unstable and volatile income cashflows. Hey they're poor - that part of why they're poor.

7. Most have poor or non-existent credit histories which unfortunately gets used by *some* unethical carriers to summarily reject applications for contracted, lower cost plans. In several cases I called their carriers for them after they were rejected for plan changes and was able to jawbone them decent contracts which had less cash-flow volatility (and make them better customers since they can make their bills more reliably) but that should not have been necessary.

8. Most don't have a good understanding of budgeting and certainly no concept of cashflow let alone NPV. This partly comes from being from poor families and being raised in bad school districts. Most are technically below the federal poverty definition.

9. Oh yeah. None have computers or general internet access. More people are falling into these categories, esp. recently. They get victimized because they have no access to information to shop around.
Re:Shocking truth by penguinoid · 2005-01-09 11:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

Commercial services may cost money!

Wrong. Or did you mean to say, "Commercial services may be expensive." It may be splitting hairs, but sending SMS messages costs almost nothing but is grossly overpriced. For no reason other than that it is usefull enough that people will pay anyways. Ahh, the free market at its best!

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Re:Shocking truth by dwillden · 2005-01-09 12:48 · Score: 1

A couple points, the length of sms format text messages being 160 is actually part of the standard. The longer messages you are able to send are sent as emails.
My second point is, I work for Sprint(through a contractor) as a customer service rep and it is amazing how often I try to advise people, who have large bills from text messaging or internet usage, about the unlimited usage planss, and they don't want to get the option added because it will cost them more money. This inspite of the fact that their bills have been outrageous for months becasue of the messaging or internet overages.
Of course I see the same thing with basic minute plans, but changing basic minute plans usually requires a new contract whereas the attachable options do not. And the thought of having to extend the period of indentured servitude is often enough to make people balk at such changes.

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Re:Shocking truth by Amorya · 2005-01-09 13:08 · Score: 1

A couple points, the length of sms format text messages being 160 is actually part of the standard. The longer messages you are able to send are sent as emails.

They're not - they're sent as multiple SMS messages. Any recent phone will join them together, but older phones get a series of messages with "1 of 3" at the top.

Amorya
Re:Shocking truth by iamlucky13 · 2005-01-09 13:19 · Score: 1

Holy pick-pocketing batman! Teaching kids fiscal responsibility? Don't be ridiculous.

I've never used them. How much do these messages cost if one can actually accrue an $800 bill in one month? I can't believe sending text messages would be such a severe tax on the cellular infrastructure that they would even need to be more than a small scheduled fee. Even if it's $0.25 a mesage, which is a lot more than I'd pay under normal circumstances, I could send 3200 messages each month for that cost. That's 100 messages per day. I just did a brief scan of my GAIM logs, and I doubt I come anywhere close to that on average, with 10 fingers! Don't their thumbs get sore?
Re:Shocking truth by cheekyboy · 2005-01-09 16:15 · Score: 1

So why cant the telco auto give you unlimited when you hit $10 worth? they wont because they love the ill informed public, yet computers could auto choose adjust plans at the cost of profits for the telcos.

Still id love to be in the board room of a telco deciding prices/plans ," yes bob, lets rip off these loosers and get rich hahahhhaha"

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Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Re:Shocking truth by SunFan · 2005-01-09 17:04 · Score: 1

Everyone is a minority, so get off your soap box and go troll somewhere else.

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-- Microsoft is the most expensive commodity operating system and office suite vendor in the marketplace.
Re:Shocking truth by ahknight · 2005-01-10 00:12 · Score: 1

Sprint actually does this. They have a plan called "Fair and Flexible" that auto-adjusts your plan each month based on your usage. So far, it's worked great for me. If that's what you're after, check it out.

one simple solution by kraut · 2005-01-09 02:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

Pay as you go phones. Pay for the credit upfront, and when it's used up, you stop until you can buy more from your pocket money.

--
no taxation without representation!

Re:one simple solution by Carthag · 2005-01-09 02:52 · Score: 1

Services like these have popped up in Denmark during the last 5 or so years. They might have been there before, but I didn't pay much attention to cellphones until recently (only had one for about 18 months). The one I use is fairly cheap by Danish standards (0.80 DKK per minute, 0.20 DKK per SMS), so with my usage it comes to around 200 DKK (~35 USD) per 50 days.
Re:one simple solution by EvilNTUser · 2005-01-09 02:53 · Score: 1

That's not a solution. The solution is stop being fucking irresponsible.

--
My Sig: SEGV
Re:one simple solution by NormalVisual · 2005-01-09 04:10 · Score: 1

I agree that's the ultimate solution, but in the meantime, PAYG ensures that their irresponsibility doesn't affect others, and comes with built-in consequences - if you overrun your paid time, you don't get to use the phone again until you pay for more time.

--
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Re:one simple solution by Taladar · 2005-01-09 04:11 · Score: 1

Another even simpler solution: Don't have a mobile phone if you don't need one for work.

--
Linux is not Windows
Re:one simple solution by wisdom_brewing · 2005-01-09 04:12 · Score: 1

in the uk, cost of a text (sms message) on pay as you go - 10p, cost on many pay monthly services, 4p. i pay something like 2p a message, but then again im on a very expensive contract (something along the lines of 170 dollars a month, but thats international calls cheaper than from a landline, 1000 minutes to anywhere in the country, any network and 500 texts) after that calls and texts are tantamount to free. on pay as go id be spending about 1000 bucks a month, if not more. for me calling is a lot more imporant than texting

pay as you go is only good for very short term usage (eg 2 month trip to the country) or very low long term usage (under $30 a month) thats the case in the uk anyway

but the whole thing with paying for ringtones and the like, those prices are ludicrous everywhere. simple solution. dont do it.

and you can set limits on contract phones

--
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
Re:one simple solution by hughk · 2005-01-09 04:38 · Score: 1

My kids have pay as you go phones. Their allowance includes an amount for telephone calls. We ask them to choose how much they pay towards their calls on the condition that they keep enough credit to always be able to call us (we return the calls).

--
See my journal, I write things there
Re:one simple solution by miyako · 2005-01-09 05:54 · Score: 1

The biggest problem with pay-as-you-go phones is that generally, you end up paying 2 to 3 times as much, sometimes more, for the same service that you could get with a plan. Also, most pay-as-you-go phones will only hold credit for one month, so most people (in my experience anyway) end up buying at least 1, sometimes 2 $50 cards a month, when they might as well just get more service with a plan and be careful to not go over their limits.
I used to have a pay-as-you-go phone, and was spending about $50 a month, and I would use the phone for maybe 10 to 15 minutes every couple of days, almost exclusively during the hours when you get unlimited calling on most plans (I think most cell phone plans give unlimited calling between 8pm and 5am M-F and all day Saturday and Sunday).
Of course, I've since decided that I find the idea of being reachable anytime, anyplace absolutely abysmal, and when you have a cell phone, people get pissed if you ever turn it off, so it's much easier to just not have one (YMMV of course).

--
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
Re:one simple solution by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · 2005-01-09 06:11 · Score: 1

Idiot. The idea is that they learn to be responsible without wasting $500.
Re:one simple solution by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · 2005-01-09 06:17 · Score: 1

With Vodafone NZ, the credit lasts a year. So that's about US$10 a year to keep my phone active. I usually top mine up every few months, since I hardly ever make any out-going calls. Your cellphone networks sound pretty harsh.
Re:one simple solution by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-09 06:31 · Score: 1, Funny

If you're in highschool or college and you can't figure out that the service you signed up for that carries a per-use fee is going to cost more when you use it more, then the idea of being responsible is lost on you. This isn't even something that parents need to instill in their children. It's just common fucking sense. I mean, how the fuck do you get accepted into a college if you can't even understand something as simple as "My phone company charges 10 cents per text message and if I send 8,000 text messages in a month, I'm going to owe $800".

Also, when would sending a text message on a portable device that is itself a phone *EVER* be more convenient than just hitting the autodial button and fucking TELLING them something? And 8,000 messages?! That's 267 per day, 17 per waking hour - or one message every 3.5 minutes.

If you're wasting that much time chit-catting on your cell phone - text or not - you're probably also failing college, failing highschool, or edging toward a firing at work.
Re:one simple solution by Chiisu · 2005-01-09 06:44 · Score: 1

Same reason why I cut up my credit card and got a debit card. Now I'm much more financially responsible.
Re:one simple solution by Seumas · 2005-01-09 06:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm 27 and I don't own a cell phone. I never have. I've only used one a few times. I'm a software engineer for a big corporation required to provide 24x7 responses. To that end, I wear a $10/mo company-paid two-way pager.

Carrying a cell-phone around strikes me as needless baggage and excessive availability. I prefer not to have to be reachable by every human being on earth every moment of every day. I'd like to consider my time sipping a coffee and reading the paper in the local cafe on a Saturday morning as _my_ time. Nobody should ever need to reach me so urgently that I need to carry a device that would permit disruption of that.

I understand why UPS drivers need a cell. I understand why cab-drivers need to. I can even understand why a CEO or an IT manager might. But beyond that, it's just a frivolous toy. Children managed to keep in touch with their parents and let them know where they were and what htey were doing for decades prior to this without posessing cell phones.

If I had a child, I can't imagine them providing any viable excuse as to why I should purchase a cell phone for them and pay the bill. And as their parent, I would not let them get one and pay for it themselves for the simple fact that I want to avoid them putting themselves into debt before even seeking out college loans a few years down the road.

Why six year olds and fifteen year olds are carrying them around like a house-key is beyond me.
Re:one simple solution by Seumas · 2005-01-09 06:54 · Score: 1

Of course, it's hard to get a house or car loan without a credit history and credit cards are typically the first step in acquiring that. And having a history of bad credit often is more preferable to lenders than having no credit (if you're like me and have the "if I can't afford it with cash, I shouldn't be buying it" philosophy).

Big difference between financial responsibility and financial viability. To banks, and mortgage lenders, at least. :)
Re:one simple solution by kgutwin · 2005-01-09 06:59 · Score: 1

Well, perhaps I was an anomaly, but I managed to use pay-as-you-go for nearly a year and a half and paid less than I could ever have with a real monthly plan. I used Verizon Wireless's FreeUP service, had a relatively featureless phone, but only paid $15/mo.

The biggest problem, I found, with an infrequently used pay-as-you-go phone, is that it's too easy to forget to recharge the phone monthly -- and if you forget to recharge, not only do you not get any incoming calls, but you lose any balance that was carried over from your previous months! I lost a bit of money that way (well, I had a $50 'rebate' that was posted to my account that I lost).

It's true that pay-as-you-go costs more per minute than a monthly plan. However, it is possible to save money in the long run, if you don't use the phone all that much or all that often. And if you find yourself spending $50/mo in pay-as-you-go, why not switch to a monthly plan? Well, unless you have poor credit, but that's a different situation... I dropped my old phone when I moved and had to use my cell phone as my primary phone - there was no way that I could afford to talk with my girlfriend like I do on a pay-as-you-go plan. Now I pay more per month, but it's worth it.

--
[root@kgutwin /dos]# file msdos.sys
msdos.sys: fsav (linux) virus (17518-87)
Re:one simple solution by cammoblammo · 2005-01-09 07:07 · Score: 1

I've noticed how a lot of people who text me don't seem to grasp the fact that they don't actually need to reply to every message they get.

A friend of mine always seems to do this, and I'm pretty sure she's not alone.

"Hey! Seen Slashdot today?"

"No."

"M$ story cool. When will you read it?"

"Lunchtime. What's it about?"

"IE security flaws, monopolistic behaviour, Bill Gates. Mongrels, eh?"

I figure a reply's a waste of money, until,

"IE security flaws, monopolistic behaviour, Bill Gates. Mongrels, eh?"

"Yeah."

"Tell me when you've read it. You still using Mozilla?"

and on, and on, and on.

What she doesn't realise is that for the price of all of those text messages she could have made a thirty second phone call, got the info she needed, and be gone."

But then, it's probably not about information exchange. I'm sure as heck though, that like the Verizon ad, this inanity is the new bread and butter for telcos.

--
Cogito, ergo sig.
Re:one simple solution by andreasmor · 2005-01-09 07:46 · Score: 1

In Italy with Wind it lasts one year and you pay only 5 Euro for recharging. You don't need to buy a new card or so, you recharge the phone on the bancomat ( don't know if they exist in the USA )
Re:one simple solution by Viceice · 2005-01-09 08:00 · Score: 1

Yea but last time i was in Auckland, prepaid calls cost NZ$1.49 a minute.

Thats grossly overpriced by any measure.

--
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
Re:one simple solution by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · 2005-01-09 08:13 · Score: 1

Most are probably signed up by their parents, who probably have no idea what SMS is, let alone think to tell the child to go easy on it etc. The child is probably either not aware of the charges, since they're not the ones who are dealing with the finance side, or they assume the parent must have it covered or not mind, since they never set any limits or warned them.
Also, when would sending a text message on a portable device that is itself a phone *EVER* be more convenient than just hitting the autodial button and fucking TELLING them something?
Cheaper. More discrete. Atleast that's what they think (because it's generally true if you don't go insane like these kids ).
And 8,000 messages?! That's 267 per day, 17 per waking hour - or one message every 3.5 minutes.
Of course, that 8000 number is obviously an extreme example of the problem. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. Plus half of those messages may be for receving, not just sending. It's also more likely to be one small conversation per half-hour or something, than one message every 3.5 minutes. Don't forget to add voice time onto that either, because the artical never said anything about $800 worth of SMS charges.
When you take all that into account, it's not so dramatic. It seems as if you failed highschool yourself. Not that they teach you to think logically in highschool, mind you.
Re:one simple solution by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · 2005-01-09 08:25 · Score: 1

It is. But it depends how often you use it. There are also different pre-paid plans aswell, charging different rates at different times etc. You might not have been on the ideal plan.
Re:one simple solution by zakezuke · 2005-01-09 08:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

If I had a child, I can't imagine them providing any viable excuse as to why I should purchase a cell phone for them and pay the bill

1. Payphones are not everywhere anymore. Even when I was in school there was only one payphone on campus for grades 7-12. Now there is none.
2. Collect calls cost an arm and a leg. After getting a few "come pick me up" calls I was in awe.
3. Calling cards don't always work in payphones.
4. You can often get a family plan with unlimited airtime between family phones.
5. Safety

I'm not saying that getting a cellphone for a kid is the right choice. But there are good reasons why one may consider it. I went with a pre-paid phone for my nieces. "Come pick me up" cost 25-55cents and there was no chance in hell there would be a charge above and beyond what was pre-paid.

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Re:one simple solution by antic · 2005-01-09 08:52 · Score: 1

Never gone out at night? Never needed to call a friend to find out what pub they're drinking at, or call your girlfriend to change plans on when/where you're going to meet after she's been shopping?

Without a mobile phone, you're stuck to the original plan, or you have to trawl the city's pubs and clubs looking for whoever you're trying to meet.

If you don't want to be disturbed while you're reading the paper, turn the phone off.

--
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
Re:one simple solution by neurocutie · 2005-01-09 09:13 · Score: 1

on the condition that they keep enough credit to always be able to call us (we return the calls).
Unless you have an incoming calls free rate (Nextel), don't see how calling them back on their cell phone helps at all, since most carriers charge for airtime regardless of "incoming" or "outgoing".
Re:one simple solution by barnaclebarnes · 2005-01-09 09:13 · Score: 1

Go for Fresh Mobile from The Carphone Warehouse. 15p any call cany network and 5p txt messages.

--
[Please type your sig here.]
Re:one simple solution by BeerCat · 2005-01-09 09:35 · Score: 1

Unless you have an incoming calls free rate

Huh!? Your telcos are screwing you so much that you pay to receive calls?. AFAIK, in the UK, free incoming calls is so much of a given that no company could even think of charging.

--
"She's furniture with a pulse"
Re:one simple solution by arekq · 2005-01-09 09:38 · Score: 1

The biggest problem, I found, with an infrequently used pay-as-you-go phone, is that it's too easy to forget to recharge the phone monthly

In Canada, some providers (Rogers and Telus AFAIK) give you an option to automatically recharge your PAYG account with credit card every month. This way you don't need to manually keep track of the expiry date.
Re:one simple solution by jabuzz · 2005-01-09 09:58 · Score: 1

Unless you go abroad, at which point it costs to receive both calls and texts :(
Re:one simple solution by BeerCat · 2005-01-09 10:23 · Score: 1

Oops, I forgot about that one!

An earlier poster did suggest getting a local PAYG SIM card when going abroad (even my bottom of the range Virgin mobile is a tri-band, so usable worldwide), although I'm not sure how easy and/or expensive that is in many contries.

--
"She's furniture with a pulse"
Re:one simple solution by thogard · 2005-01-09 10:37 · Score: 1

What I find odd about the Vodafone NZ plan is it lets you call phones in other countries for the same rate as calling a local phone and it roams to a few other countries at the same rate. Their rate is several times more than Vodafones rates in Egypt though so I think they are taking advantage of their almost monopoly.
Re:one simple solution by Paul+Menage · 2005-01-09 11:52 · Score: 1

AFAIK, in the UK, free incoming calls is so much of a given that no company could even think of charging.
But in the UK it costs about 10 times as much to call a mobile phone (from a landline or a different network) as it does to call a landline. In the US mobile phones have standard geographic numbers (rather than 07xxx as in the UK) and it costs no more to call a mobile than to call a landline in the same area.
The flipside, of course, is that you pay the same for incoming calls on your mobile as you do for outgoing calls. But this means that the owner of the phone is acutely aware of the cost of mobile calls (in the UK it's the incoming callers who are aware of the cost) and so there's heavy pressure amongst the phone companies to offer cheaper deals to customers (as anyone can switch their number to a different network to save money). Most plans now give you unlimited night/weekend minutes and a few hundred daytime minutes per month, which is enough for almost all casual use. Paul
Re:one simple solution by BeerCat · 2005-01-09 12:05 · Score: 1

True, the cost (per minute) from landline to mobile is higher than from landline to landline, but with BT (and ntl, one of the cable alternatives) having minimum call charges (if you're not on one of the plethora of landline call plans), then, for short calls, the difference is not as large as it used to be.

Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.

--
"She's furniture with a pulse"
Re:one simple solution by skrolle2 · 2005-01-09 12:14 · Score: 1

Why does a post saying "I'm old and don't understand why younger people want to use thems new high-tech thingies" get moderated INSIGHTFUL on SLASHDOT?!?

Yes, there are problems with excessive availability, and yes, it's a bad idea to let one's kids get into debt.

But non-understanding should never be a virtue.
Re:one simple solution by Geoffreyerffoeg · 2005-01-09 13:03 · Score: 1

a $10/mo company-paid two-way pager.

As a high-school student who almost never calls anyone other than my parents (IM is preferable because of presence data), I practically use my phone as a two-way pager -- and I pay less than $10/mo. I've got T-Mobile prepaid, and that's about .25c/min -- meaning that even if I were to make a call on it every day (I actually use it a little more than once a week), I'd still pay only $7.50/mo.

Nobody ever calls me on it; this is my way of contacting my parents a lot more easily than using a pay phone. It's cheaper than a pay phone.

Consider that: if your children are involved in enough unknown-time extracurriculars (like myself), you'll probably pay less for a cell phone than you give them to use pay phones.

Children managed to keep in touch with their parents and let them know where they were and what htey were doing for decades prior to this without posessing cell phones.

For decades prior to this, children walked 10 miles in the snow uphill both ways. Today, we have parents with cars. My parents are available enough that this is much more efficient. (For example, I had to give 2 friends a ride yesterday home from a math tourney that ended earlier than expected: one's parents had no cell phone although they would've been available. She actually used my cell phone about 3 times trying to reach them.)

putting themselves into debt

Get your kids one of those $10/mo two-way pagers. I doubt you can go into debt paying that.

like a house-key

Very true. My parents prefer that they give me a ride home (or to their workplace, as necessary) instead of letting me maybe go home or maybe stay where I am without them knowing which. In effect, this is my house key.
Re:one simple solution by pchan- · 2005-01-09 13:14 · Score: 1

Never gone out at night? Never needed to call a friend to find out what pub they're drinking at, or call your girlfriend to change plans on when/where you're going to meet after she's been shopping?

of course not, his slashdot id is even lower than yours. he probably hasn't seen anything outside his parents' basement in years.

while i'm butting in to the conversation, i'd like to point out that you can turn the phone off at your discretion. it's amazing how many luddites like the grandparent fail to grasp this concept. don't want to be bothered? turn your phone off. don't like work people calling you on the weekend? reject their calls. don't want your kids racking up $800 sms charges? disable sms on their phone (or better yet, teach them to act responsibly).
Re:one simple solution by xgamer04 · 2005-01-09 15:54 · Score: 1

Children managed to keep in touch with their parents and let them know where they were and what htey were doing for decades prior to this without posessing cell phones.

Try telling this to my mother ;P

--
When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
Re:one simple solution by rob_squared · 2005-01-09 16:24 · Score: 1

I think we *all* know that pay-as-you-go phones are only used by mobsters and kidnappers.

And my mother... strange.

--
I don't get it.
Re:one simple solution by EvilNTUser · 2005-01-09 17:23 · Score: 1

No, that will teach them to abuse any resource they have, as they will have learned to expect a hard limit to always save them. It's the very opposite of being responsible.

--
My Sig: SEGV
Re:one simple solution by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · 2005-01-09 20:05 · Score: 1

Really? How will it teach them to abuse any resource they have? Now you're just talking nonsense.
It's called taking steps. You're giving them a small amount of responsibility. Once they've proven they can do that, then you give them more freedom, and with it, more responsibility.
Re:one simple solution by Viceice · 2005-01-09 20:35 · Score: 1

I agree with you on the taking advantage part, but they arn't exactly a monopoly. Telecom NZ operates a mobile network too.

But their pricing structure is almost teh same, so i would think they are in cahoots and it's a oglipoly.

--
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
Re:one simple solution by raduf · 2005-01-09 21:16 · Score: 1

I was watching a movie a couple of years ago... I think it was Vidoq. Anyways, the good guys found out that the bad guy gave them the slip and went to murder somebody. So they all got into a carriage and hurried as fast as their horses would take them (the action takes place around 1700).

Until then I had been completely imersed in the movie, but at that particular moment I was struk by the fact that none of them would take out their bloody phone and call the victim-to-be from the carriage. And then I realised that sure, it was like middle ages and they don't even have electricity.

How was that quote? "Of course he has a knife! It's 1100 year and we are barbarians!" Same here. It's 2000 and we all have cell phones. In most of Europe at least. It's simply bound to became as common as having a wrist watch, and in some places it is (and I'm not even talking about Japan ;)

Point is, if you had a child you should get him a _pre-paid_ cell phone for just the same reason you'd get him a watch - it's useful. And btw, you can turn of the sound on sunday mornings and sip your coffe in quiet, and when you have time you can check who's called in the meantime and return their calls. That's what I do.
Re:one simple solution by hughk · 2005-01-09 21:54 · Score: 1

Not always possible as some places require you to show a permanent address in the country you are visiting. This is to prevent terrorists and drug dealers from using Pay-as-you-go SIMs. It amy also help with the double extortion that happens during roaming.

--
See my journal, I write things there
Re:one simple solution by hughk · 2005-01-09 21:58 · Score: 1

Calls yes, but not always for texts.
When our kids are travelling then we have a roaming agreement on the SIM, it comes direct out of my bank account. However, they know this and know they should explain any big costs, so they are generally quite responsible. We then have the peace of mind by knowing that they can call us at any time.

--
See my journal, I write things there
Re:one simple solution by Sri+Lumpa · 2005-01-09 22:45 · Score: 1

"I think we *all* know that pay-as-you-go phones are only used by mobsters and kidnappers.

And my mother... strange."

Maybe she is not your mother but kidnapped you when you were a baby? That would explain it.

--
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
Re:one simple solution by wisdom_brewing · 2005-01-10 07:52 · Score: 1

past my minutes, 2p a minute any network calls, 2.5p texts

--
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
Re:one simple solution by jasonjacks0n · 2005-01-10 09:02 · Score: 1

I prefer not to have to be reachable by every human being on earth every moment of every day. I'd like to consider my time sipping a coffee and reading the paper in the local cafe on a Saturday morning as _my_ time. Nobody should ever need to reach me so urgently that I need to carry a device that would permit disruption of that.

Yeah, I feel the same way. But I've been able to manage with only a cell phone (no land line) for the last 6 or so years -- by not answering the phone when I don't feel like it.
I've heard a lot of people express the same basic reservations you have, and I'm not criticizing -- whatever works for you is fine with me, including no phone at all. =) I just don't understand why people feel like a ringing phone must be answered. That's what voicemail is for!
Cheers,
-jason

--
This space intentionally left blank.
Re:one simple solution by Chiisu · 2005-01-11 12:22 · Score: 1

true, though while i did cut up my card, i dind't cancel it. so it's still building up credit, and i occasionally use it for online things.

How much do you pay for SMS by emj · 2005-01-09 02:26 · Score: 1

In Sweden we pay between 0.60 kr - 1.50 kr per SMS ($US: 0.09 - 0.22) that would be roughly 15 SMS per hour if you pay $800 a month.

Re:How much do you pay for SMS by yasth · 2005-01-09 02:46 · Score: 1

Only Tmobile of the big companies charges for incoming IIRC. and they charge .5 per msg so if you are balanced it comes out the same.

--
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by ckaminski · 2005-01-09 03:03 · Score: 1

No, they will all charge. Used to be a year ago I'd get my weather alerts for nothing, and 200+ SMS messages per month for no extra money. Now, Verizon is slapping me with $.10 a piece for them when I got a new phone and signed a new contract. In hindsight, I shouldn't have signed a new agreement, but I wanted a new phone and took the discount.

It only took me 10 days to catch the error and cancel my weather alerts. Nothing worth $.10 per day when I have Weather Alerts in Firefox.
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by madfgurtbn · 2005-01-09 03:08 · Score: 1

In Sweden we pay

It seems like the whole world's checking in to report their mobile phone plans on this thread. I knew /. was international, but still fun to see how much so.

Anyway, what I'm wondering is, what are the coverage areas of these plans in other parts of hte world? Do mobile plans in Europe work throughout the EU, for instance?

I think my basic plan covers most of three medium sized U.S. states without any roaming fees, or I could pay something like an extra $20 a month for nationwide service.

--
Send lawyers, guns, and money. Dad, get me out of this.
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by yasth · 2005-01-09 03:23 · Score: 1

$.02 per msg for TXT received actually, they are probably alerts differently. You could try another SMS alert provider if that price is more agreeable. (And I checked Cingular is apparently charging the full $.10 send and receive.) Annoying to say the least.

I hear you about the ForecastFox, handy little toy.

--
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by MaynardJanKeymeulen · 2005-01-09 03:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

What I found the strangest thing in the article,
is that one has to pay for recieving messages.
Here in Belgium, you only have to pay for sending, mostly about 0.13 (about $0.10 or less)
It's not like you have to pay to recieve a phonecall or something, or am I mistaking?

--
"The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is the day they make a vacuum cleaner."
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by Rosonowski · 2005-01-09 03:41 · Score: 2, Informative

Nope, you have to pay for receiving calls too, although you have the option to not answer if you don't recognize the incoming number, although that's not as much an option with SMS. (or any of the horrible bastardizations)

From what I understand, this is quite backward from how the rest of the world does things. Land lines do have free incoming calls, but this is not the case with cellphones (mobiles)

--
01101001 01100001 01101101 01101110 01101111 01110100 01100001 01101100 01100001 01110111 01111001 01100101 01110010
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 04:09 · Score: 1

Nope, you have to pay for receiving calls too, although you have the option to not answer if you don't recognize the incoming number
Twaddle. You only pay to recieve calls or text if you're outside Belgium, i.e. roaming.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by Detritus · 2005-01-09 04:13 · Score: 2, Informative

I think it's mostly due to historical reasons. Before there were cellular phones, there was a mobile phone service that used VHF FM radio. The mobile phone subscriber paid the airtime charges on all calls, no matter who originated the call. It was an expensive service, so why should the wireline caller get stuck with the bill? The mobile phone subscriber had a normal telephone number. Instead of terminating at a telephone set, it terminated at a two-way radio base station. A radio operator at the base station would complete the call to the mobile subscriber and fill out a billing chit for the call.

--
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by ahillen · 2005-01-09 04:22 · Score: 1

From what I understand, this is quite backward from how the rest of the world does things. Land lines do have free incoming calls, but this is not the case with cellphones (mobiles)

That's because the number system in Europe works different, AFAIK. Here cell phone networks have their own "area code". So if you call a number in Germany that starts with 015, 016 or 017, you know that you are calling a cell phone, which is more expensive. So the caller pays an extra charge, while in the US, where the caller can't know whether he calls a cell phone pays the same as for land line, and the recipient pays the extra charge.
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by dunkelfalke · 2005-01-09 05:05 · Score: 1

most of them, yes. the roaming works practically everywhere where gsm is availiable.

but (at least for all german plans) you have to pay for receiving calls if you are in an other country.

--
Conservatism: The fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is your inferior is being treated as your equal.
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 06:23 · Score: 1

I wanted a new phone and took the discount.
What was wrong with the old one?

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by wing03 · 2005-01-09 06:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

Pay to receive?

So cell phone SPAM also incurrs a charge?

Yeesh!

We pay corporations to wear the clothes they make in sweat shops so we can display their logos.

We get increases in ticket prices to go see movies which have become chock full of placed products that advertisers pay the studios to put in.

Now, we pay the cell phone companies every time an advertiser sends us an SMS ad?!?!

WTF?!?!

Next time someone sings the praises of the capitalist free world, I'll be sure to shovel all that back to them and remind them how great it is that big business can freely make us pay through our noses!
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by TheoMurpse · 2005-01-09 08:35 · Score: 1

In Japan you have to pay for receiving text messages, too. I always figured if someone pissed me off real bad, I'd write a script that texted them about a thousand times or so.
Also, in Japan receiving calls are free, but the caller pays the cell phone charge (even if they are on a landline, which you also pay for outgoing calls on!). Cellphones have a different area code (090), so you cannot say "whoops, I didn't know I was calling a cell!"
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by cduffy · 2005-01-09 08:42 · Score: 1

My AT&T plan doesn't charge for incoming SMS, and I don't recall paying extra for that.
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by afidel · 2005-01-09 09:04 · Score: 1

Correct, most AT&T plans include unlimited incoming SMS with a $0.10/message outgoing fee. There are some plans (mostly older ones no longer offered) which do charge for incoming. I think they came to realize that customers got pissed off paying for SMS spam. Besides when you have a network that can handle 2.5G speeds how much of your bandwidth does SMS take up? Not very much I would suspect so charging for SMS is just gravey.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by xtort17 · 2005-01-09 12:06 · Score: 1

If you don't like the way cell phone companies do things, don't purchase one: the amazing thing about capitalism is that there is competition, and you're not obligated to buy anything you don't want to.

You do pay corporations to wear their logos, but, again, that's a choice YOU make. Buy some other type of clothes if you don't want to advertise or if you disagree with the way they produce their products.

You do pay to go see movies with ads - again, if you don't like it, don't go see it.

Instead of bitching about things, why don't you change things: start your own company and sell cell phones that don't incur charges for incoming calls or that have an option not to recieve sms messages. That's the other great thing about capitalism: enterpreneurship.

The whole basis of capitalism is that money talks. Don't let corporations make money on something and they won't do it. If people don't buy it, they won't sell it.

I'm singing my praises for capitalism.
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by Geoffreyerffoeg · 2005-01-09 13:13 · Score: 1

Depends on the company. If you have a stupid plan, of course you get charged.

I rarely use my cell phone; I have T-Mobile prepaid ($25 for 100 minutes or so) that costs 15 seconds per outgoing SMS and nothing for incoming. If I got a normal plan, the cheapest that I need would be $30 or $40 per month. I buy a refill card about once every two or three months.

(No, I'm not astroturfing, I'm just a satisfied consumer of T-Mobile and a dissatisfied reader of the complaining on Slashdot.)
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by bluGill · 2005-01-09 16:00 · Score: 1

In the US it is illegal to send advertising to any caller pays service. So someone can SMS me an advertisement and I won't care because the net cost to me is $-499.90. (I pay $.10 for the SMS, and collect $500 in court) That doesn't include time, but it is still a good deal.
Frankly, I don't see why Europe puts up with their stupid plans. Sure incoming calls are free, but that means you have no clue what a call will cost, and you don't care what your provider charges. SMS is more popular in Europe because your screwed up system means that you cannot know what you will pay for a simple phone call. Here in the US I know exactly what I pay for a phone call to anyone in the US:$0.00. (I do pay a monthly fee, but that covers more time than I use).
Re:How much do you pay for SMS by ckaminski · 2005-01-10 07:54 · Score: 1

Kyocera 6035 to Kyocera 7035.

But the real answer is that my 6035 keypad barely worked, the built in microphone didn't work, and the headset jack didn't work, so while I could receive and make calls, no one could hear me. While I had the Asurian lost/breakage coverage, I didn't have the extended warranty and I couldn't get the phone repaired for less than it's trade-in value of $100 unless I broke it and paid $50 for the Asurian replacement, which could have been refurbished (what a sentence).

So, I looked around, at the 7035 (Color, OS4, 3G, 1GB SD card, MP3 playback) and decided it was a worthy upgrade for me. I then tried to give the 6035 away as a usable PalmPilot but no one would take it.

Re:More on the impact SMSing has on our youth: by yasth · 2005-01-09 02:28 · Score: 1

You are very silly and obviously never texted in your life. T9 means you tend to at least get the right start, and then it goes wild because they can't spell. Oh and you get that weird thing with on (and others) being replaced with no. I mean people will edit to make things shorter, but leetspeak takes way too much work.

--
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.

News! by Erwos · 2005-01-09 02:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

People make stupid financial decisions! Story at 11!

There's really no excuse for this kind of thing except sheer stupidity. I know that Sprint allows unlimited incoming/outgoing SMS messages for $10 a month. This is really no different than a kid running up their parent's credit card a buck a shot to $400, when you get down to it.

As for me, I can't really even imagine sending and receiving 300 SMS messages a month, let alone the 3000 that these kids seem to handle with ease. Maybe I could do it with a Sidekick, but damn, not with a regular cell phone.

Stupid semi-OT question: does anyone have any experience with buying a T608 on eBay and getting Sprint to set it up to work with the network? Any experiences on how good a phone it is in general?

-Erwos

--
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.

Re:News! by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 06:13 · Score: 2, Funny

Did it really cost a company anywhere near $400 for one person's SMS habits?
I seem to have missed the memo about federally mandated limits on profit margins. Could you forward it?

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re:News! by halo1982 · 2005-01-09 07:20 · Score: 1

I had written a 900 word response all about the T608, just for you. And then my computer rebooted right before I finished it. Thanks, Microsoft!
Anyway, I am going to suggest you go to the Sprintusers.com Forum where we will be able to answer all of your T608 questions. I myself have owned four, and activation should be easy. But as for it's qualities as a phone...well, I myself have owned four. Bluetooth is awesome and better than any other Sprint BT phone, though.
Re:News! by Viceice · 2005-01-09 08:10 · Score: 1

...could do it with a Sidekick, but damn, not with a regular cell phone.

Exactly! So the solution to this is to make sure kids get the most God aweful phone.

For instance, when I had a Nokia, the SMS input was fantastic and so many ringtones and other funstuff to choose from, as post tones and logos are made for Nokia phones.

Then my phone broke and so happends I got this free BenQ phone from work. (Yes, the makers of cut rate, failure prone PC hardware also makes cellphones.)

The keys were hard and a bitch to press, it had the worlds dumbest SMS input, and nobody in the world makes ringtones and logos for it.

So i found myself not spending a dime on tones and logos, sending maybe 3 SMSs a month and making short phone calls to people instead of SMSing.

--
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.

In A Related Story... by da3dAlus · 2005-01-09 02:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

Makes me think of this one: "Economic Woes and Dismal Math/Science Scores: Related Deficits?"
To be blunt, it really makes me think that most of America's youth is too stupid to know that X messages @ $0.yy ea = $lots'ocash.

--

Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.

Re:In A Related Story... by dasunt · 2005-01-09 05:44 · Score: 1

To be blunt, it really makes me think that most of America's youth is too stupid to know that X messages @ $0.yy ea = $lots'ocash.

Why are you limiting it to youth? How many older adults do you know that don't have any clue what they are paying for their vehicle?

Its as simple as:

down_payment + monthly_payment x months = total_payment[1]

This requires nothing more than addition and multiplication. Yet most adults don't appear to realize that their $20k new car cost them a lot more than $20k after interest.

[1] Not including the cost of full coverage insurance, which would be as easy to calculate.
Re:In A Related Story... by Jeff+DeMaagd · 2005-01-09 07:09 · Score: 1

One thing that is scary is the number of messages it takes to get a large bill. If SMS messages cost 10 cents to send and 10 cents to recieve, an $800 bill one month means 8000 messages or nearly 270 messages a day.

I've never found a phone keypad I liked, I can't stand punching in one SMS message, never mind several per day.
Re:In A Related Story... by drooling-dog · 2005-01-09 08:45 · Score: 1

Yet most adults don't appear to realize that their $20k new car cost them a lot more than $20k after interest.
And don't think that car dealers don't take advantage of that. I visited a Mitsubishi dealership near DC once, and all of their models were marked up 15-20% over list price! The sales guy explained that "price doesn't matter", and that what does matter is that they can get me (well, my girlfriend, actually) into a new car for a competitive monthly payment. An extra year of them, in fact!
I left wondering how many people fall for that. It must work at least sometimes, or they wouldn't be doing it...
Re:In A Related Story... by bnenning · 2005-01-09 10:15 · Score: 1

The sales guy explained that "price doesn't matter", and that what does matter is that they can get me (well, my girlfriend, actually) into a new car for a competitive monthly payment. An extra year of them, in fact!

That's just wrong. Nobody should be permitted to graduate high school without being able to explain the concepts of compound interest and net present value. (On the other hand, that would tremendously hurt the credit card companies and probably eliminate my 1% cash back, so perhaps I should reconsider).

--
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Re:In A Related Story... by thogard · 2005-01-09 10:42 · Score: 1

I know traffic engineers that don't understand compound interest. They claim that going a small bit faster won't shorten your trip by much but when stop lights compound by more than 50%, every missed light means your trip takes less time. That results in a lower total number of road users over time which results in a lower traffic density.
Re:In A Related Story... by Brandybuck · 2005-01-09 12:44 · Score: 1

To play Devil's Advocate, there's a good reason for this. The vast majority of car buyers cannot buy a car with cash. They don't have $20,000 in their pocket. But they can afford a $250 payment a month. Subsequently they shop around for a $250 payment instead of a $20,000 price.

Of course, many people *DO* realize this, which is why they lease instead of buy or get a much cheaper loan from their bank or credit union.

p.s. I used to sell cars. From experience I can tell you the reason most car salesmen treat their customers like idiots is because idiocy is all they can relate to...

--
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Re:In A Related Story... by SunFan · 2005-01-09 17:07 · Score: 1

Well, thank God we have No Child Left Behind to get our youth back on track!

--
-- Microsoft is the most expensive commodity operating system and office suite vendor in the marketplace.

Only in North America by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-09 02:32 · Score: 1, Funny

"I was shocked, but I couldn't do anything about it," he said. "I didn't realize that I got charged for reading text messages. My dad was just like: 'Hey, it's your problem. Pay it.' "

Is there any other place in the world besides North America where people have to pay to RECEIVE calls and texts???
How do they manage to get away with that?

Re:Only in North America by ckaminski · 2005-01-09 03:05 · Score: 1

So you're telling me that receiving SMS and cellular phone calls is Free in Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East?

News to me, story at 11!
Re:Only in North America by ion++ · 2005-01-09 03:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

Receiving phone calls and sms is free of charge in Denmark. Sending sms and calling people costs money, but one can control that by not calling or sending messages. It is a problem if others can run up your phone bill just by calling/sms'ing you.
Re:Only in North America by ianalis · 2005-01-09 03:33 · Score: 1

When you're roaming outside the country, you pay when you receive messages or calls. Otherwise, you don't pay anything just by receiving. That's for Philippine carriers
Re:Only in North America by MaynardJanKeymeulen · 2005-01-09 03:34 · Score: 2, Informative

Of course!!
I think the other way around is verrry strange
Imagine someone with too much money hates your guts,
they can let you pay a couple of thousands bucks
just by sending you a insane amount messages?

--
"The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is the day they make a vacuum cleaner."
Re:Only in North America by Taladar · 2005-01-09 04:15 · Score: 1

German ones too I believe.

--
Linux is not Windows
Re:Only in North America by balloonpup · 2005-01-09 05:41 · Score: 1

To be honest, I'm surprised at all of this. I have Sprint PCS in the US and pay $5 extra for unlimited SMS both ways. If you know you're going to use it a lot, it just makes sense.

--
I sing the doggie electric!
Re:Only in North America by woah · 2005-01-09 06:10 · Score: 1

Imagine someone with too much money hates your guts, they can let you pay a couple of thousands bucks just by sending you a insane amount messages?
Especially when when loads of websites allow you to send text messages for free. (In exchange for flooding you with text spam. Though I think the bloke doing it wouldn't care about such things.)
Re:Only in North America by tjohns · 2005-01-09 07:14 · Score: 1

I ask the same thing every time I hear about people being charged extra in order to place a call to a mobile number in certain countries. At least with the system in the US you don't inconvenience others if you elect not to use a landline phone or give out the number to your cellphone.

On the other hand, people would be sure to think twice before calling their friends all the time, resulting in less phones going off in the theater, which is definitely a good thing.
Re:Only in North America by JoshWurzel · 2005-01-09 08:17 · Score: 1

I use AT&T Wireless, and their contract stipulates unlimited free INCOMING text messages. Kind of nice since the only incoming messages I get are SPAM.

Pay to recieve SMS? by MPHellwig · 2005-01-09 02:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

So , if understand this correctly,in the US you have to pay for sms you send and recieve,even without knowing that you wanted to recieve that message?
Do you guys also have to pay for recieving post (with a stamp)?

Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by Coopa · 2005-01-09 02:39 · Score: 1

Some people in Europe pay to receive sms as well. I have friends in Holland who sometimes don't get my 'texts' until they have the credit (for pre-paid phones).
This was a problem in the UK too. Companies were charging £4.650+ ($9.00?) for ringtones. It's still a problem now I believe, It just gets reported less.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-09 02:41 · Score: 5, Interesting

Recieving mail is free. Most cell phone plans, recieving text messages is free, sending costs. However, kids will use them at school like IM clients, so they can talk to their friends without the teacher noticing (I'm in High School, I see it a lot). They'll hold the cell phone under the desk, and talk back and forth. Having gotten used to IM responses, short messages are used. $0.10 for "LOL" is excessive in my mind, but they don't seem to realize it (until they get the bill!)
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by elasticwings · 2005-01-09 02:43 · Score: 1

I'm not sure about other service providers, but my service only charges for outgoing. All incoming messages are free. I have absolutely no desire to type and send messages on my phone. If I need to tell somebody something, I freaking call them. Of course, I do make use of the unlimited incoming messages for free. Let's just say my Nagios server at work has that address. Any of my babies go down or a critical service stops, she will let me know.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by fbjon · 2005-01-09 02:49 · Score: 1

Yes, and paying for received messages means you have to pay to receive crap. Imagine paying to receive spam...

I'm also confused by this quote in TFA: "It's about feeling part of a little group with cellphones, ..."

What little group is she talking about?? Or are mobile phones still rare in the US?

--
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by Registered+Coward+v2 · 2005-01-09 02:49 · Score: 1

So , if understand this correctly,in the US you have to pay for sms you send and recieve,even without knowing that you wanted to recieve that message?

It probably varies by provider, but Verizon charges for incoming and outgoing messages.

Solution - block text messaging - that way none get through.

--
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by yasth · 2005-01-09 02:49 · Score: 1

Most companies in the US you don't get charged for receiving messages, (Though with one carier you have to pay to get text messages at all).

Oh and we do get charged if the letter is too heavy. (Though we are told the sender).

--
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by orkysoft · 2005-01-09 02:53 · Score: 1

That still doesn't mean they actually pay for receiving SMS messages. They just need a positive balance on their pre-paid SIMs, which isn't so bad. It seems to be to prevent abuse, i.e. receiving messages on a phone that doesn't generate any revenue at all. Why would a cell phone provider service clients who don't pay? Makes sense...

--

I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by danwatt · 2005-01-09 02:58 · Score: 1

Cingular makes you pay to get recieve, though that might have changed in the last few months. You can just call them up and ask that they disable SMS alltogether. The problem is that messages (at least on my phone, then again there is problably some hidden option) come through automatically.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by ckaminski · 2005-01-09 03:07 · Score: 1

Schools seem to me to be the perfect place to position cellphone blockers or picocells that shut out phones that aren't authorized.

Unlike that poor kid in my math class who carried a pager cuz his mom was hovering on deaths door, I surely didn't need to carry a cellphone back then.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by MP3Chuck · 2005-01-09 03:53 · Score: 1

Nah, everyone and his brother has a cell phone as far as I can tell. I havn't been to a highschool campus lately, but on the streets and in the malls I even see kids that are probably as young as 11/12 with cell phones...

--
Who doesn't like free music?
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by nolesrule · 2005-01-09 04:43 · Score: 1

many schools allow students to carry cellphones since 9/11 when parents were unable to reach their kids. I think it's silly, but it's true.

--
-- nolesrule
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by gstoddart · 2005-01-09 05:09 · Score: 3, Informative

So , if understand this correctly,in the US you have to pay for sms you send and recieve,even without knowing that you wanted to recieve that message?

It's not just the US. Here in Canada it's the same. My carrier once decided to give me a 'free' trial of the service (no subscription fee, still pay to receive). I found out I was getting it when I got two spam text-messages. Then I got charged for receiving the text messages I didn't want. That was why I hadn't ordered the service in the first place.

It's in the carriers interest to have you use the service if they get to charge you the fees for receiving the messages.

I've never been happy with a model where someone I don't know or want to communicate with gets to cost me money. That's like collect calls from telemarketers.

Do you guys also have to pay for recieving post (with a stamp)?

Shh. They're listening and might think that's a good idea. :-P

--
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by UpLateDrinkingCoffee · 2005-01-09 05:23 · Score: 1

In the U.S. we pay for anything that companies think they can get away with charging us. This is especially true for any company that locks us into a contract such as cell phone carriers. If you are one day late on a bill on your credit card: $30. You want to upgrade from a TDMA phone to a GSM one at Cingular? $17.
There are a few companies that make money by providing excellent service and complete on that basis (kudos to National City Bank and their free checking and free quicken downloads!) but the vast majority just try and lock you in somehow and then milk you for as much as they can get away with.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by balloonpup · 2005-01-09 05:43 · Score: 1

I know with my carrier, Sprint PCS, there's two ways to go about it. You either have a certain number of SMS messages with the plan, and pay if you go over (and yes, you do pay for ones received like this), but there's also a $5/month package for unlimited SMS both ways. I know when I had Nextel, similar was available as well...

--
I sing the doggie electric!
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by TSage · 2005-01-09 06:10 · Score: 1

>>Do you guys also have to pay for recieving post (with a stamp)?

Yeah, but the government has made it easy for us: we pay for post in one lump sum by April 15 each year.

Tsage
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 06:30 · Score: 1

Imagine paying to receive spam...
If you're on diallup, you do.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by Zebbers · 2005-01-09 07:58 · Score: 1

No, you are wrong. With the "merger" of Cingular and ATTWS and the elimination of competition this is false. Cingular charges for incoming text messages, whether unsolicited or not. It doesn't take a genius to see how the now largest cell phone company charging for incoming, unsolicited messages is a BAD thing.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by TheoMurpse · 2005-01-09 08:47 · Score: 1

With my Cingular plan, receiving SMS was free (I'm in Japan now, so I don't use Cingular ^_~). I think with TMobile it's not.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by TheoMurpse · 2005-01-09 08:49 · Score: 1

That is false. I was never charged for incoming text messages with Cingular (up until September 04, when I moved to Japan).
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by neurocutie · 2005-01-09 09:22 · Score: 1

So , if understand this correctly,in the US you have to pay for sms you send and recieve,even without knowing that you wanted to recieve that message?
Do you guys also have to pay for recieving post (with a stamp)?
Of course that is not a fair comparison, for the simple reason that the US Post Office, is a single entity that is getting paid for its delivery services, whereas with SMS there is often TWO (or more) entities that are using up resources to deliver the text message. Now you could argue that the carriers SHOULD set up an agreement to not charge each other but just freely deliver text messages, for all customer's benefit. That would be NICE and maybe it will happen someday. But the basic underlying economic principle is that you should get charged any time something costs resources. Otherwise, that service become easy to abuse and the company will not get cost-recovery.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by 2minsForSlashing · 2005-01-09 12:48 · Score: 1

The post office has an agreement to blanace it's books with other post offices at the end of the year, since they are part of the UPU (http://www.upu.int). So this is a good comparison.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by neurocutie · 2005-01-09 13:29 · Score: 1

You are refering to international mail. The rest of us are talking about domestic exchanges (mail, SMS, etc). The post office has no need to "balance its books" for domestic mail, for obvious reasons, but those reasons do not apply to domestic SMS between different wireless carriers.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by 2minsForSlashing · 2005-01-09 13:36 · Score: 1

SMS is international, not just limited to the U.S.A. A SMS message is just like any mail sent from one postal system to the other, because its a transfer of something (data or snail mail) between a sender and a receipent. So if the mobile carriers wanted they could setup a similar system. You shouldn't look at it like an exchange between domestic providers or international providers it is an exchange between service providers, be it two cell phone carriers or two postal systems.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by lachlan76 · 2005-01-09 14:43 · Score: 1
1. Teachers need to carry phones
2. Kids are allowed to use phones out of class
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by strider_starslayer · 2005-01-09 15:28 · Score: 1

Which company charges for recieving text messages?

I'm with rogers, my girlfriend is with bell- both of us have unlimited recieve (once your paying the $10/month for the text message service).

--
-Millions of Monkeys, Millions of typewriters, 6 hours of sorting through faeces encrusted pages to find: This post
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by NeoSkandranon · 2005-01-09 17:12 · Score: 1

If you purchase a cellphone plan that doesn't include an allowance of SMS messages, they are horribly expensive, just as extra minutes are expensive if you go over what's allotted on your plan.

However it's trivial to pay an extra couple bucks to get several hundred or thousand SMS messages added onto your plan, just as exra minutes are cheap.

In short, this story is a non-issue, not much different from someone going over on their minutes or racking up a long distance bill by being stupid and not understanding how their phone service works.

--
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by gstoddart · 2005-01-10 01:01 · Score: 1

Which company charges for recieving text messages?

I'm with rogers, my girlfriend is with bell- both of us have unlimited recieve (once your paying the $10/month for the text message service).

Rogers. When you don't pay the $10/month subscription.

Don't know about the others.

--
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Re:Pay to recieve SMS? by ckaminski · 2005-01-10 07:56 · Score: 1

1. Why? Every school I've ever been to has had an extensive intercom system, if not telephones in every classroom.
2. I could agree with this, but would think that it would be impossible to meet inside a building constructed in such a manner.

Prepaid cards by zyxmaw · 2005-01-09 02:38 · Score: 2, Informative

In Norway (and most of Europe I think), you can buy SIM cards that you need to "fill up". You buy a reg.code worth maybe $15, you call a (free) number and dial in the reg.code. You can then call/text for $15 before you need to fill up again. The reg.codes are available everywhere. It works great. If you dont have money, you cant call/text (except to 911/112).

Did that make any sense at all?

Re:Prepaid cards by Shadow99_1 · 2005-01-09 03:39 · Score: 1

In the US the Cell phone providers don't let you do prepaid with jsut any phone... In fact they normally only give that sort of option on their lower end phones. & unlike most of europe you can't just use any phone with any provider you want...

--
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
Re:Prepaid cards by lakin · 2005-01-09 04:12 · Score: 1

In the UK its only the low/mid range phones that are on "pay as you go" and the better ones are quite expensive, but PAYG is still very popular among kids/teenagers. It is very easy to top them up too.
We have "E-Topup" cards which you assign to your phone and then dont need to enter any codes when you top up, you just hand the card over at a shop (most highstreet stores, supermarkets, petrol stations etc support this) and it increases ur balance. This is useful for parents too, who can have cards for their kids phones, and top them up when doing the shopping for example.
You can now top up at Natwest (a uk bank) cash machines too.

--
Paul
Re:Prepaid cards by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 04:29 · Score: 1

they normally only give that sort of option on their lower end phones.
Maybe these idiots should buy lower-end phones. They could even use the savings to - shock - pay their call charges.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re:Prepaid cards by skrolle2 · 2005-01-09 04:56 · Score: 1

I, for one, am glad that I don't suffer under your evil telco overlords. :-)

Over here there are provider-locked phones, but the max locking period is six months I think, and buying a locked phone usually only lowers the price for it. You can always buy any phone at full price and then choose any provider and any form of subscription they offer.

I see a market for exporting unlocked triband-phones to the US. :-D
Re:Prepaid cards by Shadow99_1 · 2005-01-09 13:19 · Score: 1

True, but most pre-paid phones don't have SMS at all (no send, no recieve)... Or any real features for that matter... The usual list for prepaid phone sin the US looks like this: Basic non-flip black and white display phone with no other features or flip-phone with color screen and no other features...

Only one 'major' (isn't completely local to one area) provider I can think of has it's complete line of phones available as pre-paids, but the trade off is they are small compared to the likes of Verizon, Sprint, etc... So they all have scattered calling ability...

--
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
Re:Prepaid cards by Shadow99_1 · 2005-01-09 13:29 · Score: 1

Their are basically three things that keep them from being popular with most kids in the US...

1) No SMS, web, or other advanced features. The best one for advanced features that is nation-wide is Virgin Mobile, but the don't offer web and voice recognition options that are the cool things now (at least not that I've seen)...

2) You can't just buy cards for them anywhere, you have to find someone who has a deal with your provider... Like I can go to Circuit Cities and buy Verizon Wireless cards, Media Play for Virgin Mobile, or a Sprint Store (if I can still find oen locally) for Sprint cards... But I can't go to Media Play and get a Sprint card...

3) We didn't get any nifty 'E-Topup' capabilities... You can either assign a credit card to the phone so you can top-up anywhere via the assigned credit card, buy a virtual card online with a credit card, or go to a store that carries that type of card... Buying a card in a store means entering a pin number from the receipt for that card (the card itself is a worthless piece of paper).

My mom uses a pre-paid cell phone from Virgin Mobile and she can hardly remember which stores carry her type of cards for her phone and doesn't want her credit card in their system... So normally I have to go buy cards for her and since using a pin with the phone is a pain in the ass, after I buy them for her I use the online form to add the pin to her account as she probably can't remember how...

Is it any wonder most people don't want the hassle?

--
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
Re:Prepaid cards by Shadow99_1 · 2005-01-09 13:35 · Score: 1

Good luck on that because US companies won't sell you just SIM cards... All they will sell you is their phones for use with their services... People come here from other countries with less restrictive cell providers and the results are just funny... I happen to work near a verizon Wireless booth and I get to hear most of that stuff...

Then again most people don't want to pay $300+ for a cell phone... Hell I here constant complaints they don't carry enough sub-$100 phones to use with good features... Let alone paying $450 for a Treo 600 or some other PDA/cell combo (those are funny I can't see ever paying $40 a month for voice and then $40 a month for wireless internet, add in SMS messaging @ $10/month and I'm suprised people don't go screaming away from there...)

Anyways... Yes I wish it were different here, but this is the US land of the corporations... What did you really expect...?

--
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
Re:Prepaid cards by lachlan76 · 2005-01-09 14:40 · Score: 1

IS that a joke? Is the US really that bad???

Over here in Australia, you can just buy a SIM card for $30 which gives you prepaid on whatever phone you've got. And you can buy phones with them in too (I got a T100 a year ago, it has plenty of features).

US telcos seem like a joke.
Re:Prepaid cards by omglolbah · 2005-01-09 21:40 · Score: 1

In norway using the provider Netcom:

1. I get SMS, GPRS internet, everything the SonyEricsson k500i supports. It has a modem built in, so I can surf on my laptop while on a moving bus if I feel like it :p

2. I can buy "fill-up" cards in all grocery stores, gas stations and most small kiosks. There is the option to register your debit-card on the providers website, that way i can transfer money from the card, to my cellphone account giving me full control over my spendings.
I can also fill up at in just about every ATM in Norway, I have yet to find one that doesnt support it :p
Anyone else can fill up any phone by using their card and the recievers phone-number, nice for giving people birthday presents etc :p

3. Se above for answer :p
For the Netcom cards, there is a 13 digit pin code.
No offense, but if your mother cant re-fill her own cellphone using a simple pin system... maybe she should learn it...
My 73 year old grandmother can do it durn it... *Without help*

If you really think this is too much a hassle, buy a regular service... You pay to get rid of the hassle, you cant have it both ways :p

--KSH--
Re:Prepaid cards by Hognoxious · 2005-01-10 01:30 · Score: 1

In Belgium you can buy the phone & the service separately; there doesn't seem to be the US/UK/France situation where they give you a "free" phone which you pay for by a monthly fee. I don't know if this is a legal thing or just a different habit, but I prefer it; you know what you're paying, and if you don't like the service or you emigrate "your" phone isn't disabled.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re:Prepaid cards by Shadow99_1 · 2005-01-10 04:00 · Score: 1

I think you missed the point, I was showing the difference between US and Europian cell providers... & I'm not suprised my mom has problems using pin codes with her phone... Their are 6 menus to go through to find the sub menu for adding time via a pin number... Then their is still a few more steps... & she never really has figured out how to use the internet which is far far easier than doing it via the phone...

But anyways I was saying Pre-paid phones are much harder to use in the US, that was my whole point... That's why fewer people use them here...

--
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
Re:Prepaid cards by lachlan76 · 2005-01-10 16:38 · Score: 1

We have both ways over here in Australia, and while my phone came with the service, I made sure to get one that wasn't network locked.

Re:Why are SMSs so expensive? by yasth · 2005-01-09 02:39 · Score: 2, Informative

Really, $800/month to send what - at most, 10MB of data (can anyone actually enter that much data in one month using a mobile phone?) - over a wireless network is pretty pathetic.

$800 a month assuming it was all text messages (which the article says it wasn't, but still)

$.10 a message yields 8000 messages.

Per message limit of 160 according to the article (GSM is a bit higher IIRC) + Call it 40 bytes of header information 8000 * (160 + 40) = 1600000.

1024 bytes in a kilobyte. 1600000/1024 = 1562.5

1024 kb in a megabyte 1562.5/1024 = 1.53 MB

Or if you don't want to count header 1.22MB

Of course I am assuming they are using bytes and no compression. Actually Either figure would be a long novel so I doubt anywhere near that was sent. Some evil companies have a chat mode for SMS, where it looks like an IM convo and I could easily see that being mostly Hi, How are you? type stuff.

--
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.

In France by TheStick · 2005-01-09 02:40 · Score: 2, Funny

In Europe, an SMS costs approximately 10 cts. Kids send about 10-15 messages a day. And love downloading crappy 3 ringtones. A real song costs 1. You don't need to be Einstein to realise how expensive it gets. Where's the problem?! The cost of these thingies. It has a minimal(non-existant?) cost for the operator, but they make you pay a fortune for 'em. Many associations pointed this out, but hey, it's easy money. Kids aren't to blame.

Re:In France by imroy · 2005-01-09 04:08 · Score: 2, Informative

From what I understand, the problem is that the cost of SMS messaging adds up faster than you realize. Imagine you have a friend that works nearby and you want to ask them if they want to have lunch together:

X: hi, it's X here.
Y: hi. how are you?
X: good. hey, you wanna meet up for lunch?
Y: sure. at the XYZ foodcourt?
X: no, i'm getting sick of that. how about the park?
Y: ok then. what time? 12:30?
X: sure, see you there
Y: bye!

Now, if that was a normal voice call, that conversation will take all of 10-15 seconds. Even on a mobile/cell phone, that's still pretty cheap. But with SMS that's 8 messages, probably more with negotiating the place and time. Add in even more messages if more people or groups have to be organized. Now, here in Australia an SMS on most networks will cost the same as a call connection fee, something like 20-25 cents IIRC (I don't have one myself). So the previous conversation can quickly ramp up to a few dollars. Imagine having similar SMS conversations several times a day for a whole month and the figures of even a few hundred dollars start sounding very believable.
Re:In France by Taladar · 2005-01-09 04:19 · Score: 1

Kids aren't to blame.
I agree. Parents who buy these phones for their kids are to blame.

--
Linux is not Windows
Re:In France by Perky_Goth · 2005-01-09 06:01 · Score: 2, Informative

X:"Hey free for lunch? I'm out at 12:00, and i was thinking of going to Wherever"
Y:"well, maybe at 12:30. may we just go to OtherPlace instead?"
X gives a one tone ring to acknowledge.

there, two messages. wow, that was hard!!!
Re:In France by Geoffreyerffoeg · 2005-01-09 13:11 · Score: 1

I've got a prepaid plan from T-Mobile. Calls cost .40 credits/minute rounded to higher minute; an outgoing SMS costs .10 credits. Incoming SMS is free.

In this case, both would cost the same. My decision to call or IM is based on mentally computing call length vs. 15 seconds * number of IMs.

Some people are so... by wjsteele · 2005-01-09 02:41 · Score: 1

Dumb! Why not just sign up for the unlimited text messaging. My plan is only $5.99 (US) per month... and best of all, no suprises! I have unlimited GPRS Data + WiFi Hotspots too, only $19.95.

My bill never varies, no matter how much I use it. (My 14 year old Daughter has the same plan.)

Bill

--
It's my Sig and you can't have it. Mine! All Mine!

Re:THE HORROR! by Ithika · 2005-01-09 02:41 · Score: 1

Quite. What happens if you *don't* have credit on your phone? If you only have it for emergency calls (please don't tell me they charge you to call 911 as well?) can you not receive calls/messages?

--
the layman's guide to computer science

T-Mobile by XavierItzmann · 2005-01-09 02:43 · Score: 1

500 SMS free on my $29.99 acct.
Free Unlimited MMS on my $29.99 acct.

--
The next pasture is always greener

Would you like some cheese . . . by Kaimelar · 2005-01-09 02:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

. . . with all that whine? Seriously, I can only have so much sympathy for anyone who signs a contract with the costs spelled out clearly and then is unprepared when they are expected to pay those costs.

And I believe today's User Friendly comic is apropos: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20050109

Same problem in Europe... by jawtheshark · 2005-01-09 02:44 · Score: 1

... only we have known about it since 2000. The worst are the ringtones, advertised on MTV and such. (My mom always said "buy nothing directly from TV", she's a wise mom) The problem with those is that you usually "subscribe" to a service. It's written in very small letters somewhere on the screen. Many youngsters are tricked into that, and end up paying their money for ringtones they didn't want.

I also heard from a 12 year old that it is often impossible to unsubscribe from them. I personally wonder why MTV does business with such reckless companies.

I, myself, send about 1 SMS per day and my bills stay in the reasonable 10Euro range. Of course, I'm nearly 30 but kids send as much as 50 SMSes per day... Which adds up. Luckily most teenagers have pre-paid cards, so once there is no more money, their toy is useless.

--
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)

Re:Same problem in Europe... by andreasmor · 2005-01-09 07:54 · Score: 1

>I personally wonder why MTV does business with such >reckless companies Because it's a american company

How about a 1 minute call instead? by Smiffa2001 · 2005-01-09 02:45 · Score: 1

SMS 1: "HOW R U"
SMS 2: "OK"
SMS 3: "WOT U DOIN L8R"
SMS 4: "DUNNO"
SMS 5: "WANNA HANG OUT AT MALL?"
SMS 6: "OK"
SMS 7: "WOT TIME?"
SMS 8: "BOUT 7"
SMS 9: "COOL"
SMS 10: "COOL"

Or alternatively, a quick, 1-minute phonecall could sort the same thing out. Or perhaps lean over to one another in class and talk.

Like previous posters have said, it's common sense here that's the problem - kids and their parents alike should really know what they're buying and using - 10 text messages at 6 - 15p each (depending on tarrif and stuff) can be way more expensive than just making a 1 or 2 minute phonecall or - shock horror - using the landline or even talking face to face with someone....

Re:How about a 1 minute call instead? by Taladar · 2005-01-09 04:22 · Score: 1

Or for /. users: Use the Internet with Flatrate.

--
Linux is not Windows
Re:How about a 1 minute call instead? by cdcarter · 2005-01-09 11:50 · Score: 1

I use a PAYG service an a SMS is cheaper than a 1 minuter phone call

--
"Love is like a trampoline, first it's like "SWEET!!" then it's like *BLAMM!*"

Re:THE HORROR! by ThisNukes4u · 2005-01-09 02:45 · Score: 1

I know that Verizon allows any cell phone that is on its network to call 911, even if it is not on a service plan, so what I do is I just keep my dad's old cell phone around in case of an emergency. Its free and works.

--
thisnukes4u.net

I had these bills when I was 13 19 years ago. by bigtallmofo · 2005-01-09 02:46 · Score: 1

I remember when I was 13 almost 20 years ago and I was using my 300 baud Mitey-Mo modem on my Commodore 64 to call all over creation to various bulletin boards. My parents ended up with a $400 phone bill that month.

That was a lot of money and I had my modem taken away from me for a couple months. Can kids even function today if their cell phone is taken away from them today?

--
I'm a big tall mofo.

Re:I had these bills when I was 13 19 years ago. by ZorinLynx · 2005-01-09 02:58 · Score: 1

I got alone fine without a cel phone as an ADULT. In fact, the only reason I got one was because a friend was upgrading his phone, and gave me his old one for the hell of it, and I continued paying the MetroPCS (pay for a month in advance) bill. I ended up liking it so I got my own account. MetroPCS is spiffy because it's unlimited EVERYTHING for a flat rate every month. I don't know why other carriers don't do that.

I'm not sure why kids need celphones. I never needed one and kept in touch with friends just fine.

-Z
Re:I had these bills when I was 13 19 years ago. by Taladar · 2005-01-09 04:27 · Score: 1

I (student) sure don't need one. Either I am in class (cell phone would be off anyway), driving (cellphone use is forbidden here in germany while driving) or busy with something else. The only time I am not busy is when I am at home where I have a "normal" phone. Occasionaly it would be nice to have a cell phone (e.g. being late for something) but that happens perhaps once a month and definitely not often enough to make a cell phone necessary.

--
Linux is not Windows
Re:I had these bills when I was 13 19 years ago. by skrolle2 · 2005-01-09 04:41 · Score: 1

I'm not sure why kids need celphones. I never needed one and kept in touch with friends just fine.

It's ok grandpa, don't get agitated now, you know it's not good for your heart. There, there, back to your rocking-chair now. :-)

Seriously, what you are experiencing now is what the generation older than you probably experienced when you started using computers or the internet or instant messaging.

It's always a chock as a geek to realize that other non-geeks are embracing tech faster than you do.
Re:I had these bills when I was 13 19 years ago. by remi2402 · 2005-01-09 06:44 · Score: 1

My cell phone has a battery life of about a 40 sec during calls.

That helps to keep the costs down :)

Seriously though, I've had my phone for 4 years now and the cell phone is just for "small emergencies", like being late somewhere.

I have one hour worth of phone calls each month that my parents pay for me (that 15 ~ $18). After that, it locks up and I can't call anymore. I have to buy prepaid cards.

In four years, I never had to buy one of those cards. Cell phones are just like anything else in real life : a responsability.
Re:I had these bills when I was 13 19 years ago. by Matt_Joyce · 2005-01-09 15:38 · Score: 1

"I'm not sure why kids need celphones. I never needed one and kept in touch with friends just fine."

My grandad used to say similar things about computers and cars. He was a bit of a ludite.

Answers by Anonymous Coward · 2005-01-09 02:47 · Score: 4, Informative

Here are the answers to most of the questions on this thread:

- Yes, most carriers charge you to receive SMS here in the U.S. If you use SMS a lot you should get unlimited SMS. It is usually an extra $10.

- Yes, you can buy prepaid SIM cards here, or have prepaid accounts. This solves the entire problem, but if mentioned it would not allow us to whine about the "corporations".

- Yes, young adults send a lot of SMS messages. Europeans send a hell of a lot more than Americans do. Vodafone says SMS+ringtones makes up 40% of their business in the EU. FORTY PERCENT. This just proves that both the EU and the USA are filled with stupid people with too much money.

- Yes, typing a message with T9 on a keypad can be tough, but people like it. It is not "better to just call them up". SMS's are silent and can be made discreetly (not discretely kiddies).

Re:Answers by WindFish · 2005-01-09 03:10 · Score: 1

> SMS's are silent and can be made discreetly (not discretely kiddies).
Right, for that, you'll want to try Bender's Dating Service - Discreet and Discrete. Now with more discretion!
Re:Answers by t_allardyce · 2005-01-09 03:17 · Score: 1

Yes, most carriers charge you to receive SMS here in the U.S

Wow! I feel pretty lucky they havn't started that in the UK, shit its like they arn't even ripping us off properly, they only go half way.

--
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Re:Answers by rtaylor · 2005-01-09 03:43 · Score: 1

Yes, most carriers charge you to receive SMS here in the U.S.

This is actually one of the reasons I refuse to get a cell phone. I'm not signing an agreement where I have limited control over what I'm going to be paying.

--
Rod Taylor
Re:Answers by NormalVisual · 2005-01-09 04:19 · Score: 1

No, they can be made discretely too - you don't have to send all of your messages at once. :-)

--
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Re:Answers by cjb110 · 2005-01-09 04:25 · Score: 1

I don't get this charge to receive, its just so illogical, do you get a choice? no, then how can the carrier(we call them operator's here in the UK) justify the charge?

Doesn't the US have a regulator to stop this unfair treatment of the public?

In the UK when the networks first started, they did have different rates for cross network calls, but again this was quickly forced out by the OFCOM (the uk regulator) for the same reason, the person using the phone shouldn't be charged for the operators/carriers technological ineptedness.

--
----- I refuse to have an argument with an unarmed person
Re:Answers by clymere · 2005-01-09 04:30 · Score: 1

again, I don't know of any carriers in my area(NE Ohio) that charge to RECEIVE SMS. Charges at all the carriers are only to send. So your statement that "most" charge to receive is false, as I don't know a single one that does. Sending them can rack up your bill pretty quick though.

--
once you go slack, you never go back
Re:Answers by skrolle2 · 2005-01-09 04:59 · Score: 1

- Yes, typing a message with T9 on a keypad can be tough, but people like it. It is not "better to just call them up". SMS's are silent and can be made discreetly (not discretely kiddies).

Also remember that it is like any other electronic communication, i.e. asynchronous and devoid of emotions, which is fairly useful when you don't have the guts to call someone and say something like "I love you, want to go on a date?".
Re:Answers by RollingThunder · 2005-01-09 05:18 · Score: 1

Him being incorrect for your area doesn't mean he's incorrect overall. You may be the beneficiary of a pricing war in your area.
Re:Answers by josh3736 · 2005-01-09 06:42 · Score: 1

What are you talking about? My NEO Verizon plan most certainly does charge .02 per message received. Cingular is .02/message. Sprint is $15 for 100 messages. The only carrier who doesn't charge for SMS messages is Northcoast PCS.
Re:Answers by meringuoid · 2005-01-09 07:34 · Score: 1

SMS's are silent and can be made discreetly (not discretely kiddies).
Actually, I prefer to send my SMS's discretely. Sending them continuously is just too much hard work.

--
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
Re:Answers by Surye · 2005-01-09 15:50 · Score: 1

You can opt out of text message services. This is a really poor excuse.
Re:Answers by rtaylor · 2005-01-14 06:52 · Score: 1

You can opt out of text message services. This is a really poor excuse.

I tried two companies. They both wanted to charge me a fee for disabling the text messaging service. Not all telco's in all countries are equivalent.

--
Rod Taylor

For Chris'sake, who would give a child a cell... by smug_lisp_weenie · 2005-01-09 02:47 · Score: 2, Interesting

...that isn't a prepay phone? Virgin Mobile and other companies make phones that require you to buy a $20 prepaid card at your local grocery store ahead of time. This makes it easy to meter your cell phone usage and prevents this kind of insanity. Great for adults, too.

Oh, and maybe not giving them a cell at all would work, too.

People are stupid by BenjyD · 2005-01-09 02:49 · Score: 3, Insightful

Isn't this just more evidence that most people are a bit daft when it comes to money? If they're not actually paying for it there and then with cash, most people find it hard to think of it as real money.

It's just like those idiots who get the cheap introductory offers from companies like 3 and think "ooh, I'm getting a good deal" , but don't look up how much the normal monthly tariff is. It often doubles from £15 to £30 after three months or something, with a one year minimum.

Re:People are stupid by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 08:24 · Score: 1

This post sums it up in a nutshell: "affording the payment" rather than "affording the purchase".

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."

Re:THE HORROR! by Keruo · 2005-01-09 02:50 · Score: 1

it's included in mobile phone standards that you must always be able to call emergency numbers 911 and 112 even without sim card in phone
it even bypasses keypad lock if you dial in 911 or 112

--
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.

Re:sms in finland by yasth · 2005-01-09 02:54 · Score: 1

Then you overpay by a good bit given the weakness of the dolar vs. the Euro. A single text message is $.1 or E.077 and there are several options for unlimited text messaging ranging from $10(E7.66) to ~$18(E13.79).

--
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.

Ridiculous pricing by Mike+Schiraldi · 2005-01-09 02:56 · Score: 4, Informative

While the blame lies with the kids and their parents for not reading the details of the plans they sign up for, i have a lot of sympathy for them: it's not intuitive that ringtones and SMS messages would be so expensive since they feel like things that should cost next to nothing.

In other words, when i found out i could download AIM for my phone, i initially assumed the price must be something reasonable, since as a programmer i know that an SMS message probably take up the bandwidth equivalent of a few seconds of voice call, and voice calls cost about $0.0022 cents per second.

Luckily before i started using it i found out that each IM (note: i didn't say "each IM session") costs 10 cents. Yikes!

It's sort of like a hotel mini-bar. When a naive person first comes across one, they think, "Oh, i could go for a soda. That costs about 89 cents, so i'm sure with a hotel markup, it'll be like $1.50 or $2." Then they find out the mini-bar price is $5. It's their own fault, but it's understandable since one doesn't expect such a large markup.

The question is, since we live in a land of capitalism and the cell phone market has tremendous competition, why hasn't the price of SMS messaging dropped? For that matter, why hasn't the price of mini-bar food dropped?

--

--
Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again

Re:Ridiculous pricing by HeghmoH · 2005-01-09 03:05 · Score: 3, Interesting

I asked basically the same question on slashdot a while ago, and got an interesting response. Of course I can't find the post now, so I'll have to go by memory.

Basically, when the GSM standard was first created, SMS messages weren't thought about too much. They were shoved into some teeny little side band that was used for low-bandwidth control information or something along those lines. The designers didn't forsee the incredible popularity that SMS would have in the future. The end result is that even though SMS messages are incredibly low bandwidth, and there is a ton of bandwidth floating around, they can't use it because they're restricted to this tiny piece of the spectrum. That's not to say that the price isn't also due to some nice gouging on the part of the companies, but there are good technical reasons for a minute of relatively high-bandwidth voice to cost less than an SMS.

This is pure speculation on my part, but this may also by why MMS often costs less than SMS even though they usually contain a lot more data.

--
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
Re:Ridiculous pricing by hiryuu · 2005-01-09 04:41 · Score: 1

It's sort of like a hotel mini-bar. When a naive person first comes across one, they think, "Oh, i could go for a soda. That costs about 89 cents, so i'm sure with a hotel markup, it'll be like $1.50 or $2." Then they find out the mini-bar price is $5. It's their own fault, but it's understandable since one doesn't expect such a large markup.

A lot of that confusion stems from the fact that most people have come to expext cost-plus pricing - but that doesn't maximize profits. Marketing approaches such as value-received pricing and others have become much more common, but aren't necessarily common knowledge.

Part of me wonders, too, if the price point these companies have set for their "unlimited" monthly plans gives them a hefty margin and (also important) a consistent and expected revenue amount (as opposed to the fluctuations of a service based on actual usage), and the per-message fees are so ridiculously high on purpose, to shepherd customers onto the monthly plans.

--
Karma: Excellent, but still won't get you laid.
Re:Ridiculous pricing by Graymalkin · 2005-01-09 06:13 · Score: 3, Informative

Many providers, including T-Mobile and AT&T/Cingular in the US, have moved to SMS over GPRS. Most if not all handsets sold now also support SMS over GPRS which has much more bandwidth available than traditional GSM messaging channels. SMS messages are sent via GPRS like any other bit of data. There's little reason for GSM carriers to charge obscene amounts of money for messaging (other than to rip us off).

--
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Re:Ridiculous pricing by Seumas · 2005-01-09 06:39 · Score: 1

People who are stupid enough to use a service or accept a product without finding out what the cost is deserve to be gouged. You took the time to find out how much instant messaging on your phone was going to cost before using it. If you hadn't researched that first and wound up paying $800 because you sent 8,000 instant messages without even investigating the charge that would be incurred, you would deserve every bit of that and people with common sense would point and laugh at you.

As an adult, I don't understand why kids need cell phones. There are pay phones everywhere I look. And I've only been in one person's home where they didn't have a telephone. And I've never been in a business that didn't have either a public phone or phones that they would gladly let you use if you asked politely.

If your children are somewhere that they can't reach a landline through any of these venues and they are too far away to physically check in at home between the hours that school is dismissed and curfew sets in, you have much bigger problems.
Re:Ridiculous pricing by YE · 2005-01-09 07:32 · Score: 1

The question is, since we live in a land of capitalism and the cell phone market has tremendous competition, why hasn't the price of SMS messaging dropped?

Telcos don't live in the land of capitalism. It's a closely-regulated industry where the government doesn't allow anyone near the airwaves.
Re:Ridiculous pricing by LaCosaNostradamus · 2005-01-09 07:51 · Score: 1

The question is, since we live in a land of capitalism and the cell phone market has tremendous competition, why hasn't the price of SMS messaging dropped? For that matter, why hasn't the price of mini-bar food dropped?

Because the Coefficient of Consumer Stupidity (CoCS) is rising ... geometrically, if anything.

--
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
Re:Ridiculous pricing by AshuBhai · 2005-01-09 08:12 · Score: 1

Its free in India http://www.airtelworld.com/postpaid_landing.jsp
Re:Ridiculous pricing by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 08:21 · Score: 1

A lot of that confusion stems from the fact that most people have come to expext cost-plus pricing
I suspect most people don't even know what cost-plus pricing is.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re:Ridiculous pricing by xdroop · 2005-01-09 08:25 · Score: 1

There's little reason for GSM carriers to charge obscene amounts of money for messaging
You mean other than "because people will and do pay it"?
Welcome to capitalism, here's your kick in the nuts.

--
you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
Re:Ridiculous pricing by Mike+Schiraldi · 2005-01-09 09:29 · Score: 1

They need cell phones so their friends can reach them wherever they are.

--

--
Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
Re:Ridiculous pricing by Geoffreyerffoeg · 2005-01-09 13:07 · Score: 1

good technical reasons for a minute of relatively high-bandwidth voice to cost less than an SMS.

Okay. Seriously. We have Winmodems for quite cheap in this day and age; surely some software processing should be able to enmodemize* the text message and send it over the voice line, right?

(*Yes, I know it should linguistically be "modulate", but "enmodemize" is far less ambiguous.)
Re:Ridiculous pricing by Graymalkin · 2005-01-09 15:32 · Score: 1

These companies were given their spectrum licenses at firesale prices by the FCC. They have since then been allowed to conglomorate into even larger entities by the FCC. They have also lobbied and litigated to kill any and all threats to their control of their markets.

This is protectionism under the guise of capitalism. Here's both of our kick in the nuts.

--
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Re:Ridiculous pricing by ockegheim · 2005-01-09 15:37 · Score: 1

Isn't an SMS a short ( <1second) call to a messaging centre? When I took my GSM phone from Australia to Europe in 1997, the charge for sending an SMS was A$0.11, which represented the cost of a short international call to the Australian message centre. An SMS sent from Australia was charged at A$0.25 at the time (and remains above A$0.20 still). When SMS became wildly popular in Australia, the phone companies must have been rubbing their hands together with glee. Since 1997 the companies have begun charging extra (A$0.75) for "International TXT" (though during my search I found that Orange doesn't, to their credit).

I'm sure an SMS wouldn't cost the phone companies more than $0.02 to deliver. Otherwise, how could Telstra afford to offer 200 messages per night? Admittedly to other Telstra customers, but still...

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I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
Re:Ridiculous pricing by jschottm · 2005-01-09 15:55 · Score: 1

The question is, since we live in a land of capitalism and the cell phone market has tremendous competition, why hasn't the price of SMS messaging dropped?

Part of it is that the industry uses extras such as ringtones and SMS to foot the bill for the rest of their expenses. Building the GSM networks that sprang out of nowhere in the US couldn't have been cheap. And the phones themselves have always been a loss leader for the companies. Personally, I'm happy to let people who want to indulge in silly ring tones subsidize my service.

As far as competition, a company could break from the crowd and do free ringtones or whatever, but they'd either have to come up with additional sources of income or boost the price of their monthly plan, and history has shown time and time again that consumers will go for the cheapest looking thing regardless of hidden costs.

Re:Competition... by madfgurtbn · 2005-01-09 02:56 · Score: 1

Seems the western countries could use some of that competition...

I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to have more competition, but I would think that population density and coverage areas are the biggest factors in cost.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if US rates are lower than average if you somehow factor in the square mileage (kilometerage?) covered by the networks. And that's not to mention that a lot of those miles are very sparsely populated.

\not going to do the math myself, though.

--
Send lawyers, guns, and money. Dad, get me out of this.

This won't last by RealBeanDip · 2005-01-09 02:56 · Score: 1

The cell companies just haven't jumped on the "everything is free" bandwagon that made the Internet so profitable yet.

And who-the-f*ck is stupid enough to subscribe to "custom ring tones"?

--

You know you're a geek if you've ever replied to a tagline.

Re:This won't last by Garak · 2005-01-09 04:02 · Score: 1

Man you don't go out much do you?

Everyone has custom ring tones these days. Sitting on the buss you can hear everything from techno to country being played through the tiny 1" or smaller speaker when someone's phone rings.

You know fsck this PC business, cell phones are where the money is at.

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God, root, what is the difference?
Re:This won't last by hughk · 2005-01-09 05:34 · Score: 1

Its a needed bit of individuality. When you have 20 people in an office all with their own mobiles, it kind of useful to know whose is whose. Of course, the considerate people have the volume turned down and the handset stuck in a pocket on vibrate mode.

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See my journal, I write things there
Re:This won't last by Luthair · 2005-01-09 07:01 · Score: 1

Unfortunately they all purchase the same custom ringtone.
Re:This won't last by TheRaven64 · 2005-01-09 08:18 · Score: 1

I really don't understand the whole paying for ringtones thing. My 'phone (which was one I got free with a contract) supports MIDI ringtones, allowing any of the millions of free MIDI files on the Internet to be copied to it for free (it also supports BlueTooth to accomplish this). More expensive 'phones support MP3 ringtones. I can quite understand why someone would want a custom ringtone, but paying a premium for is ludicrous.

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:This won't last by xjerky · 2005-01-09 13:00 · Score: 1

"but paying a premium for is ludicrous."

And conversely, judging by the idiot kids on the bus these days, paying for Ludicrous is premium.

--
A sentence you'll never see on an Internet discussion board: "You know what? You're right."
Re:This won't last by hughk · 2005-01-09 21:51 · Score: 1

You expect kids to do this, but it makes me weep when I see grown people doing this in offices.

--
See my journal, I write things there

Re:THE HORROR! by The+Dark+P · 2005-01-09 02:57 · Score: 1

In the UK 112 or 999 are free and can be dialed through a locked keypad on most phones. Because they don't charge for reading text messages or receiving calls, even if you don't have credit you can still do both.

Why this *IS* a Problem by Major+Lame+Brain · 2005-01-09 02:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

This mobile phone stuff is the same kind of problem as folks who get in too deep with credit cards. It's easy to think "it's their problem and they're idiots for not recognizing that products and services co$t!" Unfortunately, the end result is often higher costs for everyone. When individuals default on loans, rates for the rest go up. The US government seems to ascribe to the culture of living beyond its means too. Usery is alive and well and sometimes awefully hard to discern.

--
I report to Colonel 2.6.1 and General Chaos is his boss.

Re:Why this *IS* a Problem by afidel · 2005-01-09 10:06 · Score: 1

You're assuming that there is a marginal cost for the carriers that has to be made up for by the rest of their customers when one defaults, there isn't. SMS rates are pure profit once the carrier has built out their network (which they do primarily for voice coverage). So people refusing to pay asnine bills to the carriers for low value service isn't really a problem except for the hit they take on their credit rating. The real problem is the vast majority of parents who go ahead and pay off the bill, that's resources that could have been used to purchase something usefull. Of course hopefully the maturity lesson to their offspring makes up for the material loss.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:Why this *IS* a Problem by Major+Lame+Brain · 2005-01-12 02:12 · Score: 1

Nicely put. I guess I was more interested in the corporate culture of usery. Outrageous rates for SMS are a part of that culture and, ultimately, I believe this kind of practice helps the initial bottom line but is short-sighted and punishing to the economy in general. Thanks for the correction on SMS as a part of the carrier's cost.

--
I report to Colonel 2.6.1 and General Chaos is his boss.

use IM clients in phones instead SMS by Keruo · 2005-01-09 02:59 · Score: 1

here's few links:
for MSN Messenger
for ICQ
for IRC

using GPRS isn't free either, but it's still cheaper compared to sending same amount of text over SMS

--
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.

Re:use IM clients in phones instead SMS by euphonaesthesia · 2005-01-09 06:01 · Score: 1

Most providers will charge to use such IM clients and each message is often treated like one SMS message as well. So, using MSN/AIM (the two most widely supported among US providers) could be just as expensive, if not more so.

Dear America... by unfunk · 2005-01-09 03:01 · Score: 2, Funny

Welcome to 2001... the rest of the developed world has been noticing this for several years now...

Unqualified by droleary · 2005-01-09 03:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

One school principal says that 'many students were blindsided by costs associated with text-messaging and other features, like customized ring tones'

Wow, what a frank admission by one Mr. Kevin Truitt that he isn't properly teaching kids to grow up in today's society. How hard is it to get a math problem reworded to make such costs more obvious? "Little Billy sends Suzie 8 eight SMS a day at 12 cents each . . ."

Re:Unqualified by voidptr · 2005-01-09 04:28 · Score: 1

Of course, the full paragraph that line comes from is:

School officials also know firsthand the widespread financial duress caused by cellphones. At Mission High School in San Francisco, where three-quarters of the 975 students qualify for free or reduced-price lunches, the principal, Kevin Truitt, says that many students were blindsided by costs associated with text-messaging and other features, like customized ring tones.

In other words, 3/4ths of the students and parents at this school can't feed themselves without government assistance, yet some percentage of them have their priorities so screwed up they think they need to spend $40+ a month on a cell phone for their teenager.

These aren't people that shouldn't be burned by SMS costs, they're people that shouldn't have a cell phone in the first place.

--
This .sig for unofficial government use only. Official use subject to $500 fine.

Errr... Ignorance by Zeus_olympian · 2005-01-09 03:18 · Score: 1

SMS and IM on cell phones is over rated and over charged for by the companys running the service. Every provider however does note in the contract you sign or in the documentation you receive from the provider, that turning on the option is free, but is a fee of 10-35 cents a messeage, depending on the provider. The thing is however, there is a solution. For a nominal fee (In My area is $3 CDN a month), you can send unlimited messages over your phone, and not have to worry about the 10-35 cent charge PER message. If you send a lot of IM or SMS messages over your phone, consider contacting your provider for unlimted IM / SMS rates, or stop texting, and wait until your get to your computer!

Re:Errr... Ignorance by Neoncow · 2005-01-09 15:06 · Score: 1

What provider do you use? What province are you in?
I live in Ontario and use Telus Mobility. I can add unlimited SMS for $10 a month.. $3 per month sounds nice.
BTW I don't really use textmessaging. I'm just curious. for $3 maybe I would.

Re:AHHHHHHH by The+Dark+P · 2005-01-09 03:19 · Score: 1

"Imagine they were filled with tap water"

Anyone for Dasani?

Ideal phone advert.. by t_allardyce · 2005-01-09 03:24 · Score: 3, Funny

I dream to see an advert like this:

"Hello, im John Smith head of the ACME network. Do you know how much we in the mobile phone industry like to rip you off? our profit margins go as high as %100,000 and we all work together to keep it that way. But at ACME we've decided to rebel, starting today we're embarking on a vicious price war with our competitors, we'll give you a no-contract pay-as-you-go network with absolutely free SMS messages any time and any place, no matter where you go in the world they'll still be free and unlimited and right now our competitors are all having heart attacks. How do we do this and still charge your calls at reasonable prices? simple, it costs us almost nothing to route your messages and we figured we would steal 95% of our competitors customers in just one week. So fuck you Orange, T-Mobile, O2, Vodaphone, Virgin, 3, and all the others, we're just about to screw your cash cow in the arse" (does hand gesture) "SUCK IT"

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This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.

Re:Ideal phone advert.. by Elwood+P+Dowd · 2005-01-09 14:15 · Score: 1

There's something kindof like that in a few US cities. In SF, we have "MetroPCS", offering $35/mo, no contract, no minute limit. For an extra $5 you get free long distance, and for $3, you get unlimited text messages.

They'd be a real competitor, but their coverage sucks (at least it used to), and there's no roaming. Not no roaming charges, no roaming. When you leave the bay area, your phone becomes a paperweight. I've always suspected that they were owned by one of the bigger providers, and just wanted to avoid confusing their brand image. Like 10-10-220 or whatever being owned by MCI back in the day.

The biggest problem with cell phones in SF has been that the GSM phones all had crappy coverage. Idiot NIMBY activists fought to prevent cells being installed in their neighborhoods, citing research that "cell phones cause brain cancer". Ignoring the fact that (a) the research was crap and (b) the research was about cell phones a centimeter from your head, not cell phone towers on top of a building. The SF board of supervisors never met a group of nimby jackasses that they didn't like, so they'd reject every cell tower plan on appeal. All of this I learned from an editorial in the SF weekly. Sounds plausible.

So, until recently, only CDMA providers (and Nextel, but whatever) had decent coverage. Somehow, in the past six months, Cingular managed to bust through the local political horse manure, and set up a new tower. So now Cingular & AT&T both have decent coverage in the city for the first time since AT&T went to GSM.

I'm with T-Mobile, with shitty coverage and out of contract. Totally paralyzed, because I know whatever choice I make will be the wrong one. Maybe if I hang with T-mobile, they'll be able to set up a tower too... ? Ugh.

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There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Re:Ideal phone advert.. by Elwood+P+Dowd · 2005-01-09 14:20 · Score: 1

Huh. After all that bullshit, I went to the MetroPCS website and discovered that they're a CDMA provider.

Now all my understanding of local cell business is totally fucked. I have no idea why they got known for crappy coverage.

--

There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Re:Ideal phone advert.. by t_allardyce · 2005-01-09 22:24 · Score: 1

Still I think it would be a nice offer on pay-as-you-go (pre-pay?) because you would make your money from normal calls and so many more people would join your network, they could charge a small extra fee for each months unlimited messages but it would have to be very low. In Europe and most of the world everything is GSM and moving to 3G, its very useful to be able to just get on a plane and find your phone has automatically picked up a network when you get to the other airport but allot of companies charge way too much and even charge you to receive a call, that just takes the piss - in most countries you can just pick up a new sim card cheaply for a local network that won't be such a rip-off.. actually sometimes I think using a foriegn provider in the UK would be cheaper than using one of our money-grabbers..

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This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.

Re:AHHHHHHH by t_allardyce · 2005-01-09 03:28 · Score: 1

I was too pissed off to spell check. Yeah you can get IM clients, my phone is to crappy though and that means the other person needs a phone with a client to and also finding a network that will actually charge you a decent data rate for net access?? I havn't seen an unlimited SMS plan that wasn't still a rip-off, theres only so many you can really send a month and they'll make you have a contract so its just not worth it.

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This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.

Just goes to show you by MPR+At+UW · 2005-01-09 03:56 · Score: 1

This is just yet another example of the way society is moving, the blatant over sensitivity toward everything is getting out of hand. The way that this society has babied its youth has created a generation who could care less about responsibility and as a result are just beginning to show the failures that they we will all one day be privy to. The dropout rate rising significantly and the quality of education for those that stay dropping rapidly, due to the curriculum being "too difficult" for some students to grasp, is breeding lethargy all around us and it is just about time to put a stop to it. Everyone, as a parent, wants their child's life to be better than their own was but for all of our sakes don't just make it easier and exempt the part about the difficulties of life and the responsibility that everyone must face, they are just going to be set up for the biggest let down of their lives.

Re:Just goes to show you by starfishsystems · 2005-01-09 08:25 · Score: 1

I sort of agree with you, in the sense that people should know better than to indulge irresponsible behavior.
But I think there might be some legitimate confusion about what behavior is in fact irresponsible and risky. Not long ago, we discovered that the tobacco industry had deliberately targeted children in order to secure a demand for its products. Before that, it had told adults that smoking was beneficial for their health.
People are born with some instincts about risk in the natural world, but we're not born knowing anything about technological risk, much less when that risk has been deliberately disguised by those who seek to profit from our disadvantage.
Much of marketing is about misleading people. People like you and I may have some natural skill at defending against it, and that's great for us, but we are not the low-hanging fruit against which the marketing effort is generally directed. The urban SUV driver who cuts me off while talking on his cell phone: his selfish attitude is ripe to be targeted. And if he spoils his kids and then has to pay for their SMS bills, I'm not going to feel sorry for him. On the other hand, I think that some elderly couple who have taken a cell subscription in good faith are also ripe to be targeted, as are their grandchildren who are not yet developmentally ready for critical thought, as are the parents who are overwhelmed as never before by the modern complexities of work and parenting.
Therefore, I think it's not enough to say that all these people simply need to become less indulgent and more responsible. If we were dealing with the hazards of the natural world, I would have to agree with you, and let natural selection play itself out. But we're talking about forms of exploitation which are deliberately made to (a) take advantage of human weakness, and at the same time (b) fly under the legal radar.
We have to try to teach our kids to defend against all of this really nasty stuff without making cynics of them, and without alienating them from their less critical peers. That's not easy.

--
Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.

Verizon... by DxM02r · 2005-01-09 04:00 · Score: 1

Did this to me...my unlimited text messaging 'expired?' at some point. They had a nice 'promotional program' that ran for a year or so. When it expired, I was never notified. I used to just leave SMS 'on' on my telephone all the time & use it when it was convenient. Unfortunately, when they started to charge me, any time I received a repsonse to from AIM/YAHOO on the computer...I was also charged for a txt msg on my phone service. Imagine my suprise when they told me I had somewhere in the neighborhood of 800 text messages in one month. Needless to say, that is no longer a feature I use very frequently.

SMS is a pain by JeffTL · 2005-01-09 04:00 · Score: 1

SMS is a general pain in more ways than one:

* Even with predictive entry or whatnot, a TouchTone keypad is designed for inputting numbers, NOT letters, except as a shortcut for numberas as in "KLonkike 5-0123" (generic number in the fictional number space, represented with exchange-name mnemonic) or "1-800-MYAPPLE" (Apple Computer). We're starting to see some devicess with the QWERTY keyboard, which is significantly more efficient for typing.

* High rates -- it's a dime to send even if you have free reception, unless you are willing to pay $10 or so with a breakeven point of 100 SMS messages. I bet a lot of the people who break the bank on text messages have a lot of voice minutes left -- why don't they use them instead? It's a telephone, you can use it to talk to people in other places.

* Length limitations; if you want to spell properly and maybe even write in full sentences of decent size as you might in an e-mail or IM, forget about it.

Re:SMS is a pain by skrolle2 · 2005-01-09 04:36 · Score: 1

If it's so bad as you say, why is it so popular?

I'm 28. I got my first cellphone 10 years ago, and SMS has always been available for me. I use it occasionally, it has its uses, but the kids today that have always had a cell-phone as teenagers, they use the things very, very, VERY differently compared to me.

The first is that the messages have the same qualities as secret notes, you can share them with friends ("Look at what he wrote!" *phone goes around circle of giggling girls*).

The second thing is that finally teens have access to electronic communication to all of their peers, with all the ways that it is different from face-to-face communication, i.e. being asynchronous and devoid of emotions. It is a helluva lot easier to text someone "I love you", than calling that person and trying to stutter it out over the phone.

I remember an ad from five years ago or so by the national telco here, and it had a picture of a typical high-school class and the following text:

"Everyone in this class has got a cellphone. That's not extraordinary. Everyone in this class is deaf. That's extraordinary."

Technology is a wonderful thing in the way it changes everyone's life. On the other hand, there will always be people going "no, it's bad!" or "no, why are you using the technology like that?" or "I don't understand them's newfangled thingies!"

Personally, as a young geek who has always been comparatively way ahead in tech, I find it very interesting to be obsoleted, to have kids use common tech in ways I could never imagine, and integrating it into their lives in a way I would never do.
Re:SMS is a pain by jeif1k · 2005-01-09 06:35 · Score: 1

We're starting to see some devicess with the QWERTY keyboard, which is significantly more efficient for typing.

So, why is that a pain? There are lots such devices, and they work pretty well.

Length limitations; if you want to spell properly and maybe even write in full sentences of decent size as you might in an e-mail or IM, forget about it.

This isn't new: we used to have telegrams with similar length limitations. Also, IMs are now automatically chained, giving you up to four times the length.

High rates -- it's a dime to send even if you have free reception, unless you are willing to pay $10 or so with a breakeven point of 100 SMS messages.

Well, that's the way the cookie crumbles. It still seems to be worth the money to many people. And it's often cheaper than a phone call--and less intrusive.
Re:SMS is a pain by GoulDuck · 2005-01-09 18:43 · Score: 1

"TouchTone keypad is designed for inputting numbers, NOT letters"
QWERTY was a pain in the start for me, but I learned how to use it and now I do it at a decent speed. The same thing for typing a message on my phone. You can type a message pritty fast on both when you got the training.

cheap free messaging by Doc+Ruby · 2005-01-09 04:06 · Score: 1

Unlimited Sprint "Vision" (PCS 2.5G Internet) is $15:mo. The SMS profiteering will drive kids (and other poor SMS users) into IM clients like Jabber for the cheap flat rate, keep them there for the cross-platform (other carriers, other IM networks) messaging, and leave them ready to switch their entire phone service to VoIP when the EV-DO (and competing) 3G networks offer reliable >128Kbps nationwide this year. As email replaced so much phone/voicemail, so will VoIP/IM replace circuit-calls/SMS. I personally await the arrival of voicemail-only calls, getting the best of both call/email worlds: async voice messaging.

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make install -not war

Excuse me? by BHearsum · 2005-01-09 04:08 · Score: 1

'Blindsided'?

Now I may not like the providers very much, but they are definently up front about the costs. I used to download ringtones occasionally and was always told very explicitly something along the lines of 'This ringtone will cost you x dollars to download, press here to proceed'. I think the real problem here is idiot kids that can't restrain themselves.

'OMG! Christina Augilera is the new Britney Spears, i *so* need her ringtones'.

Re:Competition... by evilmonkey_666 · 2005-01-09 04:09 · Score: 1

Here in the UK we get ripped off. We live on a small densly populated island, (compared to the US) yet we pay 10p (~$0.20) per text message.

There is obvious price fixing in the market and it pisses me off.

20 cents for a 300 character message is taking the piss.

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- PS. This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R where eliminated.

Re:Math by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 04:16 · Score: 2, Funny

Can't they do the math? If you're in school, and are blind-sided by the cost of pay-per-message, something isn't adding up.

Anybody who can send over a thousand SMS messages a month either has really fast thumbs or doesn't have much time left for studying.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."

VERIZON IS THE ANTICHRIST!!! by drewzhrodague · 2005-01-09 04:23 · Score: 1

This is the first post I've seen here about Verizon. People from Europe specify to get a prepaid phone, or to get unlimited text messaging, but if you have verizon, they charge you quite a bit.

I had Verizon for a month, and my bill was $340. I made local calls, occasional text messages. I had a $40 plan. Apparently, I blew through my minutes in the first week and a half, and they started charging me $.50/minute on the phone. I can't imagine how much money they would have charged me. Then when I call to cancel (already pretty irate), I was charged another $170 for cancellation fee.

I've had AT&T for quite a while now, and as long as you rotate your plan every other quarter, they've been okay. Cingular's support seems to be superior, and I welcome our new cellular telephone overlords.

Pictures from my 3650

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Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.

UK Solutions to Problem by lxt · 2005-01-09 04:24 · Score: 1

In the UK, where GSM phones are far more widespread than the USA, SMS took off around 5 or 6 years ago. Seeing as nearly all those under 18 are on Pay As You Go, you could never really run up a large bill in the first place.

However, the phone companies came out with various packs and "bolt on" options - for example, Orange do a deal whereby you pay £20 and get 5 free texts a day to any network for a year. Some operators offer heavily reduced texts to same network users (Virgin Mobile have a 3p to same network, 10p to other network structure).

Re:THE HORROR! by tomjen · 2005-01-09 04:26 · Score: 1

in fact, you can call 112/911 without knowing the pin of the cell phone.

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Freedom or George Bush

That they didn't know IS the point. by Titusdot+Groan · 2005-01-09 04:27 · Score: 1

To all of you who missed the point of this article and why it's interesting to /. readers ...

It's amazing that kids in High School are not aware enough of costs and fees of their own cell phones to be able to manage it.

When I was that age I had a job, was buying most of my own clothes, knew how much gas cost because my dad made me fill up the car if I borrowed it, and saved up for stuff that I really wanted.

Now these kids don't even know what the services on their phones cost. This is not a good thing ...

Re:That they didn't know IS the point. by skrolle2 · 2005-01-09 04:50 · Score: 1

Well, the difference is that your gas and your clothes were pre-paid. The price was visible, and you couldn't consume until you've paid for it.

Yes, parents should teach kids to be responsible and pay for themselves, but it is also kinda seedy of the telcos to allow teenagers to sign up for a subscription with a monthly fee and to a service which charges you after you've consumed the service. They are in effect giving people unlimited credit without the checks and balances that are in place for for example credit cards. (Ok, I'm not from the country that is the glorious home of credit cards, but even you DO have some checks and balances, right? :-) )
Re:That they didn't know IS the point. by cduffy · 2005-01-09 09:11 · Score: 1

Well, the difference is that your gas and your clothes were pre-paid. The price was visible, and you couldn't consume until you've paid for it.

If you're filling up the car after using it (as the parent described), that's not true.

There's no excuse for the kind of irresponsibility this article reflects -- and yes, part of being responsible is being aware of future responsibilities which one is incurring on oneself.

SMS on cell phones- QUIT YOUR WHINING!!! by ectotherm · 2005-01-09 04:30 · Score: 1

I had to reply to this post, as it sparked "conservative outrage" from me. Did the people that signed up for this service think for a second that SMS was a free service? Did they think that the cell phone fairy would bestow magical powers upon them that allowed free instant messaging via cell phone? I think not. "WAHHHH my cell phone bill is $400 because of text messages!" Well, did you send all of those messages? Yes? Then pay the bill! And LEARN from the experience. The whole "the cell phone sales person doesn't tell you the real costs" argument fails in my view. "Joe Cellphone-sales clerk" will not underscore the costs for you in red magic marker. He's TRYING TO SELL A SERVICE PLAN. Why would he submarine his chance to make commission? Sales people will always bend the truth/gloss over/outright lie to sell something. However, reading the "fine print" of the service contract will outline ALL costs, and allow consumers to pick a smart plan. I'm sick to death of all these whining people who won't take responsibility for their actions. Read the fine print, understand what it means, ask questions if needed from someone you trust, and BE AN INFORMED CONSUMER! Don't cry later about it if you do not fully understand what you are getting into. Parents who can't control their children's behavior is a problem. If your kid runs up a HUGE cell bill, and can't pay for it, TAKE THE PHONE AWAY, and make them work off the bill! Or, get them a "pay as you go" cell phone, and make them pay for it. Bottom line: as a parent, you should take charge. Don't whine- do something about it! Also, everyone needs a few lessons in "actions and consequences" in their life. Hopefully these lessons will be learned in a way that will not impact the rest of their lives, like a teenaged pregnancy. All too many parents will pay the HUGE cell bill, give a stern admonishment, and let the behavior continue until next month's bill. The lesson learned by the kid is that they have to listen to a lecture, but will get to continue using SMS. Sort of like "watch this brief ad and we'll let you into our website." Lastly, was anyone else annoyed by the fact that we have kids on subsidized lunches with huge cell phone bills caused by SMS? So, let me make sure I understand this. With our tax money, we are paying to help these kids who cannot afford food get enough food, and at the same time they are pissing away money on instant messages? If they can afford instant messaging on a cell phone, THEY CAN AFFORD TO BUY THEIR OWN LUNCHES. I'm not saying that the kids should not have a cell phone- they are great in an emergency. But I think they should not have instant messaging in their cell plan. They should save their money for more important needs- such as food. It's not right that the taxpayers in this country have to pay(indirectly) for other's SMS. (By the way, for those who don't get what I mean by "indirectly": if someone on a subsidized lunch program has enough money to pay for instant messaging, then that money should be spent paying for lunch. The fact that they are paying for instant messaging, and having tax payers buy their lunch is a problem for me. In essence, taxpayers are subsidizing SMS.)

--
"Nature bats last..."

Re:SMS on cell phones- QUIT YOUR WHINING!!! by zmollusc · 2005-01-09 06:07 · Score: 1

I also reckon $400 is cheap for a lesson about how capitalism works and why it is important to read contracts thoroughly. Hopefully, by making THE KIDS PAY the bill they ran up, this is a lesson that will stay with them for life.

--
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
Re:SMS on cell phones- QUIT YOUR WHINING!!! by jeif1k · 2005-01-09 06:41 · Score: 1

I think not. "WAHHHH my cell phone bill is $400 because of text messages!" Well, did you send all of those messages? Yes? Then pay the bill!

Unlimited SMS cost around $10. At some point, the carrier should have done an automatic "courtesy upgrade". Charging 40x the flatrate because someone didn't have the good sense to switch to it is just very unfriendly to the customer. It may cost the carrier $10/month/customer to maintain the SMS infrastructure and make a decent profit, but the remaining $390 are just excessive.

In different words, no, it is not OK for companies to set arbitrary and complicated pricing schemes and trap customers in it. Sometimes it isn't legally OK, and usually, it is just really stupid from the point of view of retaining customers.
Re:SMS on cell phones- QUIT YOUR WHINING!!! by neurocutie · 2005-01-09 08:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

it is not OK for companies to set arbitrary and complicated pricing schemes and trap customers in it.
I don't think 10 cents a message can be considered "arbitrary and complicated".
At some point, the carrier should have done an automatic "courtesy upgrade".
Do you know of ANY common service that works this way ? If you bring 12 individual cans of Coke to the cashier at the supermarket, do you expect the cashier to say: "Gee each can costs 75 cents, but a twelve pack only costs $4. I'm going to automatically charge you as if you are buying the 12-pack." ?!?
You end up calling Europe 10 times this month because your uncle has fallen ill. The costs are astronomical. Do you expect your phone company to step in and say, "Well if you had only adopted our Int'l rate plan for $5/mo, you would have cut your bill by 90%. In fact, we are going to ASSUME that is what you would have wanted to do, so we are AUTOMATICALLY signing you up for this OPTION and knock your bill down AS IF YOU ALREADY had this option." ?!?
The fact is that even if a company is trying to save a customer money (questionable why it should) IT CANNOT ASSUME that you would have wanted to add a feature option like unlimited SMS for $10/mo as a continuing monthly cost, which often comes with CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS. YOU must agree to taking on new services and contracts. I definitely don't want companies adding new options to my service plan without asking me, EVEN if it might save me money FOR THAT MONTH.
So then, your argument reduces to, "Well companies simply shouldn't charge that much for SMS. They should put a cap of $10-20." Well fine, go ahead and try to convince a company that that is in its best interest.
The whole issue is Darwinian anyways. People too stupid or undisciplined to regulate their spending NEED to be held responsible for their actions. There is nothing even remotely necessities-of-life about SMS anyways, it is a total LUXURY.
Re:SMS on cell phones- QUIT YOUR WHINING!!! by ectotherm · 2005-01-09 15:33 · Score: 1

Why would a company want to offer an "unlimited plan" when they make so much more $$ otherwise? Remember, a company's primary interest is making money. Yes, they have to keep customers happy, but this is secondary to the bottom line and stock price. A company has only to keep its customers as happy as the competition can. It doesn't have to be perfect, just suck less than other companies. Sort like the old "I don't have to outrun the bear- I only have to outrun the other campers." Capitalism, comrade! And a healthy dose of caveat emptor!!

--
"Nature bats last..."
Re:SMS on cell phones- QUIT YOUR WHINING!!! by jeif1k · 2005-01-14 11:23 · Score: 1

I don't think 10 cents a message can be considered "arbitrary and complicated".

It's "arbitrary" because it is far, far in excess of the costs.

It is "complicated" in the sense that people don't understand what that amounts to in terms of monthly costs.

Do you know of ANY common service that works this way ? If you bring 12 individual cans of Coke to the cashier at the supermarket, do you expect the cashier to say: "Gee each can costs 75 cents, but a twelve pack only costs $4. I'm going to automatically charge you as if you are buying the 12-pack." ?!?

I know lots of businesses that work that way. They are the ones that keep their customers and make a sustained long-term profit.

The fact is that even if a company is trying to save a customer money (questionable why it should) IT CANNOT ASSUME that you would have wanted to add a feature option like unlimited SMS for $10/mo as a continuing monthly cost, which often comes with CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS.

They are the phone company--they can call you: "Mr. Smith, we noticed you have already accumulated $50 in SMS this month--would you like us to upgrade you to our monthly SMS subscription?" Heck, they can send you an SMS alerting you to this fact and making you the offer.

People too stupid or undisciplined to regulate their spending NEED to be held responsible for their actions

And companies NEED to give them the tools to manage their spending, like sending them spending alerts when they exceed certain limits.

The whole issue is Darwinian anyways

You bet. And what's being selected against isn't the bad customers, it's the bad companies, the ones that treat their customers like shit and try to trick them into spending far more than they can afford.
Re:SMS on cell phones- QUIT YOUR WHINING!!! by jeif1k · 2005-01-14 11:28 · Score: 1

A company has only to keep its customers as happy as the competition can.

That's not how it works. Even a monopoly has to keep its customers happy to some degree because people always have the choice of not buying at all.

Capitalism, comrade!

You apparently have no idea what capitalism means, but since you go around calling people "comrade", that is perhaps not surprising.

And a healthy dose of caveat emptor!!

Fortunately, that principle doesn't apply anymore: we have consumer protection laws. And we have those because they make good business sense: people buy less if they have to be afraid that they'll get screwed.

Re:AHHHHHHH by clymere · 2005-01-09 04:40 · Score: 1

it may not cost them very much to route that message, but it cost them to put up those towers. Cell phone co's are in an unenviable constant upgrade cycle. From CDMA to GSM, to whatever the next big thing is...they are always putting new stuff up. This is expensive, but if they don't they risk losing customers to the other guy that did. Of course they still overcharge many things IMHO. Just explaining why the perceived cost of a service may not be the actual one.

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once you go slack, you never go back

Re:Why are SMSs so expensive? by Taladar · 2005-01-09 04:42 · Score: 1

So basically you say with SMS you pay the same money (approx.) for 1 Megabyte you pay to get 1 Terabyte of Diskspace on Harddisks?

--
Linux is not Windows

How far behind by kicken18 · 2005-01-09 04:45 · Score: 1

Im sorry but the term WTF comes to mind. How far behind are Americas..here in England as have been using SMS for years..befor 2000. Think is amazing, how far behind are the ameericans..also how dumb are they not realising that sms is pay per text...WTF us English really are advanced

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Visit My Blog at http://spaces.msn.com/members/chrisharries

Re:How far behind by t_allardyce · 2005-01-09 05:08 · Score: 1

Nice troll.. We get ripped of in the UK more than most of the world, you hear people in the US complain about '$2 gas prices' - I wish in my wildest dreams that petrol cost $2 per gallon, try $2 per litre!

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This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.

Nothing all that new... by Balthisar · 2005-01-09 04:45 · Score: 1

Not a whole lot different than when I was 13, had a 300 baud modem, and Quantumn Link charged by the minute. I think all those SIDs I downloaded STILL cost moer than a track from the iTunes Music Store!

Took me a while to pay off that first month!

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--Jim (me)

Re:AHHHHHHH by t_allardyce · 2005-01-09 05:00 · Score: 1

No, taking that into account still gives them insane profit margins. I don't think calls should be free but SMS messages should be, they're so small how on earth can you charge that sort of money for them??

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This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.

Cingular brochure... by singularity · 2005-01-09 05:00 · Score: 2, Informative

I am currently in the market to switch cell phone providers. I am a person who will go over the terms and conditions with a fine tooth comb.

On Cingular's brochure, it had details about the text messaging service. Without a plan, each message SENT OR RECEIVED would cost $.10. You could turn off text messaging, but Cingular would be unable to guarantee that you would not receive any incoming messages.

Huh? I would turn it off, saying I do not want any, and Cingular would still charge me ten cents if they were unable to block an incoming message? How in the hell?

Text messaging seems cool to me, but the outrageous prices here in the U.S. make it unreasonable. Make it $2 for unlimited and I would be interested.

[Note: I tried to find the same paragraph on Cingular's site but they say to the see the appropriate brochure for terms and conditions of featured services like text messaging.]

--
- (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman

Re:Cingular brochure... by drew · 2005-01-09 18:01 · Score: 1

i've wondered about this myself. i've had cingualr for about a year now and as far as i can tell there is no way that i can disable incoming sms messages, which i have to pay for.

fortunately, at the moment there is only one person who ever sends me text messages, although i've never figured out why- he only ever messages me to tell me he tried to call me and i didn't answer. if it ever got to the point where it was costing me more than ~30 cents a month, i'd be pissed about thid idiocy, but for the time being, i've accepted it, although that's one more reason that i likely won't stay with cingular much longer.

hopefully sprint hasn't started doing anything dumb like that since i left them.

--
If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?

Dummies by fz00 · 2005-01-09 05:46 · Score: 1

They can't pay the extra $4 so they can send 1000 messages "free"?!?!

somebody please tell me by museumpeace · 2005-01-09 05:50 · Score: 1

that the silver lining of this cloud is that Pay Per Message keeps junk messages off the air.
If I screw up IM for a minute [like rebooting the firewall] my highschool student stomps up the stairs whining and fuming. I'm just lucky that we set the phone policy as a condition of even getting cell phones: go over the base plan charges by a more than a few bucks and hand over the phone for the month...he uses his unlimited minutes all up in the first 3 weeks of the month and uses text messaging only in circumstances we would approve, e.g. letting us know he arrived safely from/to a party when he knows we are at a play or concert where cell phone noises are verboten. He assures us we are downright cheap compared to his school chums whose phone bills rival our car insurance payments. Looks like the stats back us up in our frugality.

--
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.

Re:somebody please tell me by museumpeace · 2005-01-09 09:08 · Score: 1

oops, I meant his anytime minutes...but he could probably use unlimited up if we had it.

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SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.

I've said it before by Tsiangkun · 2005-01-09 05:57 · Score: 1

People have a feeling it is their god given right to do things without first reading the contract, fine print, instruction manual, memo etc. I see it at the lab bench with experiment protocols, I see it in software use, and it seems to be a re-occuring theme in american culture. I don't see any problem here, 10 minutes spent reading their contracts would have saved them 30-80 hours of labour at $10/ hour to pay of the bill. One can find, for 10 dollars, unlimted text messeging.

charging for INCOMING SMS by krokodil · 2005-01-09 06:15 · Score: 1

In the article they are quoting spokesman for Cingular Wireless, basically saying "tough luck!". What he fails to mention is a ridiculous Cingular policy of charging user for incoming SMS messages! If you are a Cingular customer, I can rob you of 10 cents, just sending you text message. On the other hand, AT&T Wireless always had free incoming SMS, which makes perfect sense to me. I wonder, what pricing policy new joint Cingular/AT&T plans will follow.

Re:charging for INCOMING SMS by neurocutie · 2005-01-09 09:55 · Score: 1

I certainly understand your sentiment, and don't necessarily disagree with it. However, try this on:
You have a basic cell phone rate with no special SMS rate -- however you DID say OK to enabling your phone for SMS on a casual rate basis. A guy who has Verizon decides to send you 100 SMS text messages. Is there ANY reason why Cingular isn't entitled to recover the costs of delivering these 100 SMS message to you ? Cingular didn't get ANY of the fees from the sending operation (Verizon got them). Note that Cingular has NO idea if you know this guy or not, and why should it matter to Cingular if you know this guy -- it still delivered the messages to you just the same.
Now, from your viewpoint, does it matter whether:
1) This guy is your best friend,
2) This guy is your worst enemy,
3) This guy is someone you met once,
4) You don't know this guy, but the messages are meaningful and helpful to you,
5) The messages are total SPAM.
I do think the US carriers should get together and agree not to charge each other for SMS deliveries, and also put into place some rudimentary SPAM-blocking facilities to make sure that SMS SPAM is difficult to send and costly.

Re:Math by BarryNorton · 2005-01-09 06:16 · Score: 1

Anybody who can send over a thousand SMS messages a month either has really fast thumbs or doesn't have much time left for studying.

I know you're only joking, but my little brother used to have an 'unlimited' free SMS contract that was revoked because he exceeded the 1800 per month 'reasonable use' clause (by 200%!)... and he's starting a Maths degree in September!

Re:For Chris'sake, who would give a child a cell.. by puetzk · 2005-01-09 06:21 · Score: 1

virgin has nice small phones now. So does tracfone, though they aren't as fancy as the phones virgin has. My brother has virgin (since it's a nationwide plan w/o an extra roaming charge) and I have tracfone (since they have fewer gaps in coverage, and I don't travel enough for the extra the 10/min when roaming to be a deal-breaker). Both are good deals if you're not a really heavy user.

--
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.

unlimited messaging for $30/month (+more) by jeif1k · 2005-01-09 06:25 · Score: 1

Maybe they should buy a device aimed at the youth market and priced to match? You get unlimited SMS, unlimited messaging (via AOL Instant Messenger), unlimited E-mail, plus a voice plan, starting at around $30/month. Anything else is just a rip-off.

Re:unlimited messaging for $30/month (+more) by Corydon76 · 2005-01-09 06:46 · Score: 1

Perhaps it's aimed at the youth market, but it is extremely useful to those of us who need to available to fix servers, even when away from access points. Last weekend, for example, I fixed a customer site from my seat at the Titans football game, by using the installed SSH client.
The point stands, of course. $400 is a "stupid tax" for those who don't plan ahead and just get unlimited data for $30.

note to the principal by artifex2004 · 2005-01-09 06:29 · Score: 1

please ensure your students know how to read.

2 cents to receive, 10 cents to send by erice · 2005-01-09 06:30 · Score: 1

That's what Verizon charges me. I haven't checked at plans in about a year, but back then there were bundles. Unfortunately, they still weren't unlimited and for what I use it for (receive only), pay as you go is cheaper.

Re:They're idiots by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 06:33 · Score: 1

they're simply too stupid to understand that you can't spend more than you earn.

Never stopped the US treasury department...

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."

Re:Why are SMSs so expensive? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · 2005-01-09 06:37 · Score: 1

Why are you comparing the price of a certain type of cellphone traffic with the price of storage for a HHD? That doesn't really make much sense.

Re:AHHHHHHH by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 06:41 · Score: 1

No, taking that into account still gives them insane profit margins.

Buy their stock then.

I don't think calls should be free but SMS messages should be, they're so small how on earth can you charge that sort of money for them??

Start your own telco then.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."

Tmobile has unlimited for $10 too. by jholtsnider · 2005-01-09 06:43 · Score: 2, Informative

Tmobile has the same deal. Until last August, you could even get unlimited *international* text messaging for $10/month. As someone with lots of friends in the UK who like to text message, that was great. Oh well, they still offer unlimited domestic text messaging for $10/month.

Re:Tmobile has unlimited for $10 too. by Repton · 2005-01-09 09:31 · Score: 1

Here in NZ, Telecom had a NZ$10/month unlimited text deal going for a while. I'm fairly sure it included international texts --- there doesn't seem to be any distinction made between national and international text messages in NZ (although I'm not a Telecom customer, so ICBW WRT them).

They ended up pulling it because it was costing them too much --- kids were sending vast quantities of texts all the time.

In the last month of the promotion, one teenager decided to register his annoyance by sending as many texts as he possibly could. I think he got to 20,000-30,000 or so..

(now, you can get "only" 500 texts per month for your NZ$10)

--
Repton.
They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.

Re:AHHHHHHH by t_allardyce · 2005-01-09 07:09 · Score: 1

They're conspiring to keep the prices high. If I had any chance of starting my own telco I would probably have to go through another carrier (most mobile networks are really just fake networks running off someone elses towers and network) and I certainly wouldnt be able to get away with 'price gouging' the market. But most obviously... if i started my own telco WTF would I want to give people a fair price!?! Id be ripping the fuckers off just as much!
Doesnt mean i cant complain about it

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This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.

and another SMS incentive... by Hamster+Lover · 2005-01-09 07:11 · Score: 1

A few years ago all the cell phone companies in Canada got together and created a unified text messaging centre, meaning that you can directly message between any of the carriers.

The companies must have realized that they could make more money delivering and sending messages to and from each other.

Re:one simple solution - go for AmEx instead by Rude+Turnip · 2005-01-09 07:20 · Score: 1

Bad, bad idea. Sure, I'll use my debit card at the grocery store for some supplies, but when it comes to dining out, buying stuff for work (that I later get reimbursed for), online shopping or big-ticket merchandise, I see no point in exposing my checking account to so many people. A credit card gives you purchasing power without giving anyone direct access to your cash supply. God forbid if some website gets cracked and your debit card number is there.

If you're having trouble keeping your spending under control, may I recommend an American Express card? Technically, they're not credit cards, they're "charge" cards and you *must* pay them off at the end of the month. After I got one, it really helped me to put my spending in line. The regular one costs $55 a year, but given that it will help you learn some financial responsibility, I'd say the price is worth it.

Actually, if you like going to the movies, it pays for itself in short time, as you can buy tickets to Regal (UA) movie theaters for only $6.50 each (good at all times and all shows).

--
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!

Re:Why are SMSs so expensive? by yasth · 2005-01-09 07:21 · Score: 1

Comparing to voice bandwidth needed is probably a fairer comparison.

Using the lowest rate stream of GSM, (4.75kbit/s)

4.75 / 8 = .594 KBytes/s

Or about 2638.69 s. 43 Minutes of voice. Which even at really high (international roaming) rates probably wouldn't be more then $86

If take the more realistic case of Full rate GSM (13kbit/s). is 964.35 s or 16 minutes of voice which is pretty trivial.

But of course they are not charging you based on bandwidth. So in the end the comparisons aren't really fair.

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I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.

Here ye Here ye by adeydas · 2005-01-09 07:23 · Score: 1

NEWS FLASH: Sending letters by post may cost you money, so please don't overdo it.

Re:Why are SMSs so expensive? by TheRaven64 · 2005-01-09 07:36 · Score: 1

I worked out a while back that the cost of SMS messaging in this country is roughly equivalent to £455/MB. I thought £1/MB for GPRS data was expensive, but at this rate I could fire up a Jabber client, go through all of the authentication stuff, sync up my roster, get stored messages, and send a few messages for less than the cost of a single SMS.

In Japan, they don't use SMS - all relatively new telephones support email, and there is no difference between email sent to a computer and email sent to a 'phone. SMS was originally a neat trick used to send notifications of received voicemail out of band, and has turned into a cash cow for the industry.

By the way, Mac users who haven't yet discovered this: click on the bluetooth button in Address Book if they have a bluetooth 'phone - it allows you to send and receive SMS from your computer rather than having to use the small screen / keyboard on the 'phone. There are also other utilities that provide more features, but this one is built in.

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News

blame the teachers by zenst · 2005-01-09 07:44 · Score: 1

"One school principal says that 'many students were blindsided by costs associated with text-messaging and other features, like customized ring tones" " So its basicly the fauil t of teachers not giving the wee brats an educatuion to the standard were they can understand that little tommy's applies cost 5 cents each and if he eats 100 he will have to pay 5centsx100. Blindsided, weeding out th emorons more like. What next OMG OMG nobody told me I had to pay for petrol in my car and I was just about to drive away when I got blindsided by the police for not paying for said petrol headlines :/

haha by donutface · 2005-01-09 07:59 · Score: 1

In Ireland SMS is pretty cheap nowadays. O2 gives me 200 free messages a month on their website, so i gotta use the internet to send the message. Recieving messages is also free, and spam is kept to a minimum.

In my day, it was LD charges, shifted revenue src by neurocutie · 2005-01-09 08:28 · Score: 1

Nothing new here. In my days as a college student, it was long distance charges, primarily to LD girl friends and boy friends. People would ring up $150-200/mo LD charges, which, 20 years ago, is probably similar to $800/mo today (certainly tuition is > 4X today in numerical dollars than 20 years ago...)

These days with LD charges included in cell phone rates, unlimited nights and weekends, and low LD landline rates, I doubt any college students (anybody smart anyways), has such high LD phone charges. So the phone companies simply needed to shift the source of the revenue stream...

Re:AHHHHHHH by Hognoxious · 2005-01-09 08:34 · Score: 1

Loose and lose are both actual words. So speilchucking isn't going to help much.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."

Public performance of copyrighted ringtones by tepples · 2005-01-09 08:40 · Score: 1

I really don't understand the whole paying for ringtones thing.

When your phone rings in a public place, you are performing the ringtone in public through your cell phone, and performing a musical work publicly is the exclusive right of the copyright owner. In this world of big media and take-it-or-leave-it contracts of adhesion, the only free ring tones are those based on works first published on or before December 31, 1922.

"So I'll just switch to another ringtone in public." Would you rather buy a few ringtones for $10 or require a GPS receiver in every phone and a GIS subscription to determine whether or not the phone is in a private residence before playing a copyrighted ringtone?

"So I'll just write my own songs and turn them into ringtones." Even if you try to write your own songs, there's a good chance that they're already copyrighted.

My 'phone (which was one I got free with a contract) supports MIDI ringtones

Another provider's phones don't; they have this restrictive "Get It Now" setup such that the only way to get works such as ringtones onto a phone is by buying them from the provider. This apparently lets the provider determine whether the ringtone is duly licensed for public performance.

Darwin at work by mark99 · 2005-01-09 08:41 · Score: 1

When they run out of money they will stop.

Of course you have to wonder if such people will ever be fit for economic life.

Re:Darwin at work by iamwahoo2 · 2005-01-09 16:57 · Score: 1

They will be the first kids to get credit cards.

Errr... by DiscoOnTheSide · 2005-01-09 08:48 · Score: 1

Wow... this is nuts...

I just added more text messages to my plan...

300 Text Messages (in and outgoing) $2.99 a month.
Unlimited Text Messages $10 a month.

How is that bankrupting? If the kid prefers text messages, cut back on the voice plan a bit and add unlimited. Now you're not paying anymore, and lil texting Timmy is happy, and parents aren't taking out loans so he can send "omg lol! 2funny" to his friends at the mall.

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Viva La Revolucion! Buy a Mac!

SMS Text Messaging & Youth Debt One Dime at a by securitas · 2005-01-09 09:03 · Score: 1

The original post was edited down and the title truncated, which add a bit of context for those who don't bother to read the article, namely the sales methods of the service providers and the lack of tools to track usage.

It's not completely surprising that a profit-driven organization would fail to draw attention to deals, but it's in the carriers' long-term interest to do so. Slightly reduced monthly revenues is far more desirable than terminating an unpaid account, foresaking all future potential revenues, alienating a customer and generating negative word-of-mouth. The last line of the original post reads:

... Carriers are also criticized for failure to "draw customers' attention to the cost-saving deals" and - in market leader Cingular's case - an inability to track the number and cost of text messages sent.

Valuable lessons by payndz · 2005-01-09 09:25 · Score: 1

"Okay, kids. If you'd bothered to read the terms and conditions for your fancy new phone, you would have realised that each text you send will cost you $217.53 and grant the phone company the legal right to harvest the organs of your pets to make sandwich paste for their executives, while each photo of your friends you take with your phone-camera will mark that person for termination when the New World Order comes. Now do you realise why mastering English and Mathematics is so important?"

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You must think in Russian.

Re:Its amazing by mabinogi · 2005-01-09 09:26 · Score: 1

why would you get charged for _receiving_ text messages?

I can sort of understand the justification for being charged for incoming calls - no dedicated area code for mobile numbers like we have in Australia, so no way for a caller to know they're calling a mobile.
But That argument doesn't work for text...

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Advanced users are users too!

Not true by Junnonen · 2005-01-09 09:30 · Score: 1

This has been available in Finland for years now. I could get a plan with 800 messages per month for about 7 euros. (After the 800 they're about 10 cents a piece or something like that.) Probably other operators have even better deals.

I suppose prepaid is pretty popular in many countries, but NOT here in Finland. It's much more convenient to just pay the bills as they arrive without need to worry about re-charging etc. The problem with kids overusing the phone is solved by monthly limits of use that parents can apply with the service provider.

Industry has always exploited the vulnerable... by Wonderkid · 2005-01-09 09:30 · Score: 1

and history shows it. In fact, all the industry need do is offer flat rate plans. Unlimited talktime and texts for a fixed amount, just like broadband. People cannot plan their cashflow around unpredictable billing. I know people here in the UK close to suicidal over their phone bills which in turn effect their credit and ability to maintain a bank account. Being communicative is NOT irresponsible it is human nature! I say, let the kids talk and text as much as they want. We are human not machines.

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O'WONDERWe're working on it.

So True by Omniscientist · 2005-01-09 09:53 · Score: 1

Text messaging is indeed a big cause in racking up debt. When I first got a cell phone, I swore to myself that I'd never use the text messaging service. However its really damn hard not to use it when someone is text messaging you. I've noticed girls using it quite a bit, as it is easier to talk to someone you like through text messaging at first than actually calling them up, due to being nervous and all that good stuff.
What I think really sucks is you are charged if you RECIEVE a text message. That means someone could theoretically make you go bankrupt. I'm able to not pick up a phone call, but I have no say in whether I recieve a text message or not.
So yes, I have sent a few text messages in response to the ladies out there, but recently I grew a brain and started doing the smart thing: Reply to all my SMS messages for free using gAIM.

SMS messages vs internet on phone by philipgar · 2005-01-09 10:16 · Score: 1

I always find it amusing how the cell phone companies manage to gouge the public on something as stupid as SMS messages. They charge per message more then what a minute of phone conversation would take. Doing the math thats pretty crazy. Assuming a cell conversation takes up a stream of 32kbps (I'm not really sure how much it is but I assume its something near that as they're relatively clear), that yields nearly 2 million bits of information per minute for voice calls. Assuming a ridiculous plan that costs 10 cents per minute, that yield ~200kb per cent. Assuming a 128 character message, and after ECC (and resends) and headers etc we have at most 256 bytes being sent per message. Or 2kb. Seems to me that 10 cents for 2kb of data vs 1cent for 200kb of data seems a bit ridiculous.

Although here I'm leaving out how much of the overhead is for the initiation of the conversation (creating the connection etc), but I'm pretty sure the phones always have a nominal connection so its not a big deal.

this leads me to what I do with my phone. Using t-mobile and their tzones internet feature ($5/month extra) you can check your email etc from your phone. It also allows your phone to connect to their gprs internet service. However I recently realized that they blocked connections to most outgoing ports (ie i could only connect to other machines mail ports). Using aim was simple enough as I just set aim to connect to port 143 (pop3).

The harder part was browsing the web. For this I set up an ssh server to answer to port 143. I connected to it using a -L portnum:proxyserver:80 and then just setup my browser to use localhost:portnum as a proxy server. Of course you need to have access to a proxy server to do this, but if your in school you probably have access to one already.

Then on my vacation I just sat there with my laptop on the internet. It was a bit slow but I used unlimited aim (with a real keyboard), and could browse the web check my mail etc. And all it cost me was the nominal $5 a month the cell company charges for "unlimited t-zones".

After the month was done no extra fees etc. Even if there was I could argue that as tmobile advertised the plan as unlimited tzones and stated nowhere explicitly about usage fees they have no right to charge me. Also as I've had my phone over the initial year contract now I have a bit of leverage over them. But if the cell companies are going to work their damnest to screw us over, its well within my rights to abuse their service when I can.

Phil

Way to remove your moderation by PhYrE2k2 · 2005-01-09 10:41 · Score: 1

You do realize that mods can't participate in discussion- so by posting this message, your mod points on this no longer are effective. -M

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when you see the word 'Linux', drink!

Re:Waste of money by tongue · 2005-01-09 11:25 · Score: 1

I would much rather someone SMS'd me a short message if it didn't require any interaction... something like "don't forget to pick up milk on the way home" or "running late, be there soon" or "class cancelled for monday" doesn't require a phone call that interrupts my train of thought, class, meeting, or whatever.

In UK, you don't pay to receive calls or texts... by Wonderkid · 2005-01-09 11:52 · Score: 1

When living in California (1991-2000) I was shocked that one actually has to pay for incoming calls! And now texts? What moral right does a firm have to charge for unsolicited 'anything'?

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O'WONDERWe're working on it.

17-yr-old sets new world record in text-messaging by jangobongo · 2005-01-09 11:59 · Score: 1

- Yes, young adults send a lot of SMS messages.

This brings to mind a story I read not too long ago about Cricket's Fastest-Fingers Text Messaging Competition. A 17-year-old in Utah typed, "The razor-toothed piranhas of the genera Serrasalmus and Pygocentrus are the most ferocious freshwater fish in the world. In reality they seldom attack a human," on his wireless phone in 57:75 seconds to set a new world record for text-messaging.

The winner's mother said that he had made text messaging his favorite hobby. The winner himself said that he text-messages more than he talks on the phone.

With this kind of evidence, its easy to see how cell-phone bills can get to $800.

As an aside, my 14-year-old nephew learned a valuable lesson about cell-phone costs. When the first bill came and the parents found an extra $100+ in various charges (games, ring-tone charges, text-messages), they made my nephew responsible for the bill. He quickly learned to limit his charges after that.

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Sig cancelled due to lack of interest

Re:Do you know what this boils down to? by MindStalker · 2005-01-09 12:31 · Score: 1

You seriously don't believe this do you. If congress was to start helping people from companies trying to screw them over, they would start with the credit card companies. I don't see them doing that any time soon do you?? :)

here in the philippines by john_uy · 2005-01-09 13:14 · Score: 1

majority of the mobile users are in prepaid (iirc, around 90% of the users are prepaid - but i'm in the minority.) this solves the billing issues as people just add value to their account available at almost everywhere. the telcos are happy as you can put value of around USD 0.40 (PHP 25) at the minimum to charge up your account. here also, you can also request for a collect text or collect call service for mobile phones. you can even pass on your credit to other users. this can be a way to do that so you can budget your costs.

for kids here, the carriers have plans for them. they have locator service to track the mobile phone of kids. and of course, useless downloads of games, ringtones, etc. these tied to a primary account (parents can control i think the limit of the supplementary account.)

imho, majority of the traffic probably are not very substantive - they use sms to pass on jokes, love notes, and chat. in addition, they download ringtones, callback, logos, and other stuff.

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Live your life each day as if it was your last.

yep by ksheff · 2005-01-09 13:19 · Score: 1

nothing teaches responsibility like getting bitch slapped by Adam Smith's invisible hand.

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the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs

Unethical Marketing and Sales Strategies by salesgeek · 2005-01-09 13:31 · Score: 1

I'll bite on this one seeing as how I have a couple of daughters that are approaching cell phone age.

There are a couple of practices in the cell phone business that I find to be highly unethical.

When your plan minutes are up you pay per minute (usually really high per minute) for each additional minute. This is especially troubling given that there are usually a multitude of higher priced plans that provide more minutes. I could pay $39 per month and $300 for a total of 3500 minutes on one plan, but had I had the foresight, $59.95 per month for 3500 minutes.

Solution: Automatically bump the customer to the next better plan when their bill exceeds price of the next better plan. This goes for SMS, too.

Locked-Out Handsets: Some model handsets have features locked out or crippled. Often this involves serial communication or the ability to install software on the phone. Compounding the problem is the marketing done by the manufacturer that touts the capabilities of the device.

Solution: Cell carriers should have to diclose on all marketing materials what differs from the stock configuration of the device. Saying "some features disabled" isn't good enough. Tell people that Serial communication, outlook sync, and handset to to handset address transfer have been disabled. Or even better: web browser is limited to just carrier X's little tiny corner of the internet.

Some downloads cost but don't tell you.

Solution: Customer must enter their PIN to approve any purchase of a feature from the carrier. And no, entering it in a wallet isn't good enough.

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-- $G

Why pay for SMS by spludge · 2005-01-09 13:45 · Score: 1

Most of the time it's just not worth it for me to pay to send or receive a text message. I have so many voice minutes included in my plan that I never go over. I either pay for text messaging that is not included or use a 'free' voice call out of my minutes instead!

in japan by Kanasta · 2005-01-09 13:49 · Score: 1

each msg costs 1 cent for 250 chars, and more for longer ones. AND they send/rec internet email. US telcos are ripping everyone off. As are Australian ones.

anyway, any kid that racks up a $300 bill is an idiot. too bad society thinks it's OK to sue the telco for letting an idiot do a stupid thing tho.

In Australia by __aabgfe356 · 2005-01-09 14:02 · Score: 1

im suprised that it had to happen in the good ol US of A before this becomes news. This has been happening in Aust. for at least 5 years now. I know here, under 18s cant get their own (non-prepaid) phones without a Guarantor - in which case it is the responsibility of the guarantor (usually a parent) to ensure the phone is used responsibly, else they pay lots! It would make sense for the parents/guardians of an underage phone user to get their Telco to block all SMS traffic to/from that number, a service we do have in Aust. - altho the USA cell tech is older than ours so it may not be possible over there. As in the Phillipines, I have found the easiest way to control SMS usage is to go pre-paid. I would recommend this procedure to any young person with a fone, but more importantly to parents, as they are ususally the ones footing the bill.

My bad joke of the day by heinousjay · 2005-01-09 15:22 · Score: 1

How much speil would a speilchuck chuck if a speilchuck could chuck speil?

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Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.

The only valid reason to ever use a cell phone by scourfish · 2005-01-09 15:25 · Score: 1

is to order the pizza when you get off of work so that the delivery guy is in the driveway by the time you get home.

growing up 101 by Matt_Joyce · 2005-01-09 15:48 · Score: 1

I might be over simplifying things, but kids need to learn about cause and effect, this is part of growing up.

I guess not getting a bad credit rating has replaced the 'don't get a police record it will make it hard to get a job' mantra of my youth.
Maybe not replaced, joined, perhaps.

That aside, I was initially shocked to hear some people get charged to recieve messages, but voice mail has been like that for years on my phone.

Use java IM, www.x-txt.com by cheekyboy · 2005-01-09 16:27 · Score: 1

Yes it may sounds cheap for ONE message, 10cents, but send 12 a day for 30 days = WAY TOO MUCH.

Wheres our scaling factor? why dont sms cost 5cents after the first 20, and 3cents after the first 100.

Yes they would CUT their own profits, but hey, if every nightclub/bar started to charge $45USD for 1 beer there would be an outcry for excessive MAFIA style PROFITEERING of EVIL proportions.

Hell, why not just charge govt sectors $500/hr for IT contract jobs, sure its excessive, but fuck em.

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Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.

922V Landlocked countries are not safe either! by EyesOfNostradamus · 2005-01-10 09:23 · Score: 1

Le barrage de Malpasset à Fréjus

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