Intelsat Loses Another Satellite

Alarash writes "Intelsat reported a few days ago that its IS-804 Satellite is lost in space. According to the press release, the '[...] satellite experienced a sudden and unexpected electrical power system anomaly on January 14, 2005, at approximately 5:32 p.m. EST that caused the total loss of the spacecraft.' The satellite was in charge of the South Pacific's media delivery. As a reminder, Intelsat-7, another satellite from Intelsat, got lost a couple of months ago."

Comments

Technical info

[JS_RIDDLER]

All links are from their site. Here is a image of the coverage area of the satellite:

http://www.intelsat.com/resources/coveragemaps/sat _foot.aspx?name=804&loc=174&spot=global
Here is some technical data on the satellite:
http://www.intelsat.com/resources/coveragemaps/sat _foot_details.aspx?name=804&loc=174

Also here is some Satellite Basics :
http://www.intelsat.com/resources/satellitebasics. aspx

Conspiracy!

[mOoZik]

This seems too consistent to be a random failure. Wasn't there some sort of a mystery as to what caused the last one? I propose that the satellites are slowly being hijacked and will soon be used against us, a la Independence Day! They'll collectively broadcast crappy reality shows to every corner of the world and none of us would be able to stop them! AHH! AHHHH!

Re:Conspiracy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Who knows...but shut up.

It could be far worse.

They could collectively broadcast goatse and tubgirl to the whole world. Now THAT would be EXTREMELY wrong... just the thought makes me shudder.

Re:Conspiracy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Some say this has already happened.

Re:Conspiracy!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's planet X.

First of all, Earth really has a wobble. That's why eastern Europe is in heavy winter, whereas western Europe is in light winter. The eastern Europe is in a higher point on the ecliptic when compared to Western Europe. That is also the reason there has been growing grass in Antarctica: As the Earth's inclination has changed, the place that the grass has grown has moved out of the icy area. That's the reason we also get funny shadows at certain times of the day (for example at exactly 12:00 midday).

Secondly, there is an increase in meteor sightings from the south, especially, around Australia.

There is an increase in earthquake activity in South-East (around Indonesia).

The weather is strange in many parts of the world.

The sun has enormous corona mass ejections from one side only.

The earth has been snapping and cracking all over. There is a great increase in railway accidents and falling bridges.

Satellites fail regularly.

Volcanos are errupting all over the world. Mt Etna, St Helens, Cracatoa, you name it.

Now you can go on and tell us that it's all part of my imagination, and I should get a life yada yada yada, but since you are so logical, why don't you check it yourself?

Re:Conspiracy!

[Max von H.]

First of all, the two sats were not manufactured by the same companies and are different in design, so it's not like a recurrent problem in a series of satellites.

Secondly, the first sat was recovered on dec. 3 as stated here: http://www.intelsat.com/aboutus/press/release_deta ils.aspx?year=2004&art=20041203_01_EN.xml&lang=en& footer=82

Re:Conspiracy!

[peragrin]

One very simple question.

How do you know these are anormal, and that it's increased? Only for the past few centuries have we been recording data. We really don't have a good picture of our world's history, and minor changes that take place.

Yes earthquakes and volcano's are minor changes.

Re:Conspiracy!

[vk2]

Above link htmlized here

As a PBS here is how you too can learn to make clickable urls.

Re:Conspiracy!

[sxdev]

The satellites have two independent sides. For something like IA-7 and 804 incidents to happen, something must bring down both sides (or they shorted with each other, etc). IA-7 only lost one side, but was tumbling, and that is what makes the recovery 19 hours later a miracle.

Re:Conspiracy!

[SmokeHalo]

They'll collectively broadcast crappy reality shows

The use of the word "crappy" to describe reality shows should be -1 Redundant.

Re:Conspiracy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just thinking here.

Maybe the two satellites did not "fail" mysteriously. This could be a cover story.
Maybe the Dept of Homeland security does not want us to know what the satellites are doing. You know, like checking on US citizens to see if they are terrorists or such.

Re:Conspiracy!

[The Datamangler]

The problem with people is we only live 72.4 years- if you're a Japanese female (please don't check that statistic- it could just be a damn lie). The earth, "SOME PEOPLE say" tm-FOX News Network, is 4.5 billion years old. Even if Global Warming is happening, the worst we will see over the next 1000 years will only be one of those squiggles on the geologic climatology chart. The glacial epochs of the Holocene and Recent are not the max peaks of climate fluctuations either. You think we have seen unusual phenomena? How about a volcanic basalt flow the size of eastern washington, southern Idaho and north eastern Oregon? (Oh, that's right, it happened already! Oh , and there is one 10 times that big in India) Yes, the problem is, it's not in your imagination- most people have a hard time imagining how big true 100,000 year and 1,000,000 year events can be.

Re:Conspiracy!

[pseudochaotic]

Nah, it's more likely that it just got struck by lightning or something.

Re:Conspiracy!

[erc]

Lightning in space ... now that would be a trick...

Re:Conspiracy!

[wyohman]

The only mystery is why stupid people continue to post assinine conspiracy theories. Space is a VERY harsh environment and shit breaks. Hmm.

Re:Conspiracy!

[Nerd4News]

It's them damned Martians again. It was bad enough when they were taking out our spacecraft entering their airspace but now their expanding their empire.

I for one welcome our new Martian overlords.

I, for one,

[Black Parrot]

Welcome our new satellite-eating overlords.

Conspiracy Theory

[Suchetha]

maybe someone doesn't want communications to happen. i think a powerful enough radio beam could fry the satellite. ideas?

could this be a test bed for the newest extortion?? "give us the money or your satellite gets it"

Suchetha

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[Anonymous Coward]

I can only think of ONE group that has both the motive and means to cut off our communications and that is

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[Anonymous Coward]

Could be the Chinese doing live tests of their satellite killers on a target that won't cause an immediate war if they were detected.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[hcdejong]

You'd need an insanely powerful radio transmitter to fry a satellite. Read up on EMP.
Using a missile (like the old American ASAT program) would be more feasible.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[Gentlewhisper]

>Could be the Chinese doing live tests of their satellite killers on a target that won't cause an immediate war if they were detected.

2005.. year when bush went to war with china, in search of mystery satelite killing devices

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[maxwell demon]

I can only think of ONE group that has both the motive and means to cut off our communications and that is

Since you don't tell what goup it is, I'll have to guess. The fact that you post as AC and finally decided not to post it anyway strongly suggests you actually meant

THE SLASHDOT CROWD

Yes, that makes sense. After all, the slashdot crowd is well known of killing web servers (the so-called slashdot effect). They use a site tarned as "news for nerds, stuff that matters" to efficiently communicate the targeted servers for the DDoS attacks. It's only a logical next step from killing websites to killing satellites. Therefore everyone on slashdot is suspect. Oh, wait ...

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[Anonymous Coward]

Even the neo-cons aren't dumb enough to want to go to war with China. China would have to be suicidal to provoke a war with the US.

But China knows that space will be militarized and they want to be the ones to do it.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[h4rm0ny]

The easiest method to ruin a satellite, in concept at least, is to simply burn it out with a targeted beam of microwaves. In this case, it's a communications satellite so you wont have any trouble knowing where it is. You point and turn the power on. Satellite says: "ARRGH! I'm blind!"

Alright, it's not an A-level physics project, but its far simpler than earth-to-orbit missiles and needing so little time to operate, you could be done long before anyone figured out what you were up to. You wouldn't even need big facilities -just stick the equipment on a truck and use from anywhere.

The US military successfully blasted a test satellite with lasers back in 1997.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[Taladar]

Or perhaps the test for a Anti-Satellite weapon before it is used against military satellites.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[derfy]

..The Trust.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[Alan Partridge]

S P E C T R E

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[SupremeTaco]

You've GOT to finish you quote with ". . . ." or "[NO CARRIER]" or something like that. It's ALL about the delivery.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[LinuxHam]

You'd need an insanely powerful radio transmitter to fry a satellite. Read up on EMP.

A laser will do just fine. On October 17, 1997, we fired a laser from White Sands at an unused Air Force satellite. We originally intended to blow it to bits with a laser blast but other countries asked us not to out of fear of us littering the satellite belt with more garbage. We did this 7 1/2 years ago. Around Nov 28, 1998 a flurry of articles appeared indicating that China was readying an anti-satellite laser, so theories about China doing this may not be too far off.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[B3ryllium]

Bzzt. C.H.A.O.S.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[Alan Partridge]

Nah, it's the fucking Mysterons!

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a joke. He was implying that his communcations had been cut off.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[MrP-(at work)]

Indeed

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he got censored by the group he named?

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[plover]

If you targeted an old Air Force bird, it was probably an old surveillance satellite. Virtually all surveillance satellites are in low earth orbits, (around 90-100 minute orbits, or somewhere around 200km in altitude) where they can actually do valuable surveillance.

That's a far cry from the Intelsats, which are all geosynchronous. Here's Celestrak's elset from Intelsat 804, the bird they just lost:

INTELSAT 804
1 25110U 97083A 05017.31774222 .00000014 00000-0 10000-3 0 9682
2 25110 0.0319 265.8059 0003220 27.0257 112.3545 1.00271741 26001

What this says is: this observation was taken on January 17, 2005. Orbital inclination was 0.0319, (that's "tipping" relative to the equator; very close to 0 is expected for an equatorial orbit.) RAAN was 265.8 degrees, (RAAN is a number that helps define the orbit, I could explain it but it would probably take a page.) Eccentricity was .000322; that's very close to circular which is expected for an equatorial orbit. ARGP was 27.0257, (where in the orbit the bird is closest to earth, mostly meaningless for an orbit this circular.) Mean anomaly was 112.3545, (where in the orbit the satellite was when measured.) Finally, mean motion (revolutions per day) was 1.0027, which is very close to 1, meaning it orbits the earth at the same speed the earth is turning, which is the definition of an equatorial orbit.

So, what's all this mean? The bird was about 35,800 km away, or roughly 180 times further away than your Air Force target. Their laser's power would have dropped off significantly over that distance.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[plover]

Crap, I can preview all I want but it's only after I submit that I see I typed "the definition of an equatorial orbit" when I meant to type "the definition of an geosynchronous orbit."

Sorry about that.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[grolschie]

Nah, some dude and his kid pointed a laser at it.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[LinuxHam]

Thanks for the excellent description of keps.

I'm certainly not going to say "it definitely was the Chinese", it was just not an unreasonable thought. The only retort I have to offer to is a reminder that they ran the test at a tiny fraction of the power they originally intended to, and for a much shorter period of time. As you (obviously) very well know, a satellite in LEO usually offers about an 8 minute pass requiring very accurate tracking from the ground, particularly with a laser that was 2m wide. We hams don't have to worry so much when trying to hit AO-10 with a 70cm circularly polarlized beam.

Consider:

* Its been 7 years since the article said the Chinese were almost ready
* We ran our test with minimal power
* We had to hit a LEO satellite, not one in Geosync (i.e. we hit a more difficult target)
* Space doesn't dissipate a laser (we bounce lasers off the moon to measure its distance.. its moving a quarter inch a day away from us)
* We could have blown it apart over 7 years ago instead of just disabling it
* The satellite in question has only suffered an unknown electrical anomaly and was not necessarily destroyed

I would be interested in knowing if the USAF used Haleakala to look for it at the time it was scheduled to pass to see if it's been destroyed or not. They do that all the time with satellites that unexpectedly go dark.

I stress that I respect your opinion and well-informed status. I just don't think its impossible to freak out a satellite with a laser, even at that distance. Especially one that never moves relative to the Earth.

Thanks for the chat.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[plover]

Those are all good points. I missed considering that your test was a minimal power diable-the-target test rather than a blow-it-up test (your initial posting didn't describe the outcome of your test, only that you "fired" on it and did not "blow it to bits." I didn't recognize that you actually succeeded in disabling it.)

I realize that laser power doesn't dissipate with the cube of the distance like an omnidirectional point source, but the beam still diverges somewhat over distance. And a geosynchronous orbit is a long, long way. (I'm guessing that you probably can't/won't/shouldn't divulge power, divergence, etc, that's fine.) But if your hit on the LEO bird was a 2 meter diamter spot, unless you started with a 2 meter diameter laser that was substantial divergence. (Oh, hell, this is the Air Force, you probably DID have a 2 meter diameter laser! That is soo cool!)

Of course, there's still one final problem with the "Chinese theory". If it was a ground based laser (as yours was,) Beijing, China is at 116 degrees East. Unless some James Bond villain is floating a giant diamond mirror somewhere over the Pacific, the western hemisphere's geosynchronous satellites are completely shaded from China. :-) Of course a space-based platform would still be able to travel to any target.

Anyway, I'm a fan of Occam's Razor, rather than conspiracy theories. I'm still guessing that it was probably nothing more exciting than a debris strike.

Re:Conspiracy Theory

[LinuxHam]

John, I *must* be more careful with my articles and subjects. When I said "we", I was referring to "we, the United States". I'm very sorry for any misunderstanding.

Anywho, check out these google hits:

MIRACL laser. It appears to be 2m across to answer your earlier question.

story. Notice the "partial success" quote since the data flow stopped.

From this, this picture.

Finally, from this:

United Press International
April 03, 2000
By PAMELA HESS

WASHINGTON, April 3 (UPI) -- A panel of defense industry experts will recommend the Pentagon develop new anti-satellite weapons and techniques that would block enemies' use of spy satellites, GPS and commercial communication systems, according to an as-yet-unreleased report by the Defense Science Board.

The panel envisions a laser weapon that could, at different power levels, temporarily "blind" or physically destroy an adversary's satellite in times of war or when "detrimental to U.S. or coalition interests," according to the report, which was obtained by "Inside the Pentagon," an independent news weekly.

The Defense Department has been developing missiles and lasers that can do just that, but has yet to deploy one. Congress has kept alive an Army effort to develop an anti-satellite missile with infusions of cash every year since 1993, the last year the Pentagon budgeted money for the program on its own. Manufacturer Boeing is expected to have three prototypes completed this June, ready for flight testing in 2001.

The Army also has the MIRACL laser, a massive and powerful laser designed to destroy or blind enemy satellites in space. It was first tested against an Air Force satellite in 1997 despite the expressed concerns of then-Russian President Boris Yeltsin to President Clinton.

Indeed, even the White House has taken a stand against anti-satellite weapons. In a 1997 letter to Sen. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, President Clinton said he did not see a need for deployment of such a weapon. "I do not believe any threat yet justifies the near-term deployment of an operational ASAT capability," he wrote.

Clinton used his line-item veto power to delete almost $40 million for the program Congress inserted into the Pentagon's 1998 budget. The Defense Science Board report was completed in February but has not yet been publicly

(yes it does cut off there). Again, so sorry for any confusion. It was just an interesting story to me all those years ago, and it found its way into this thread. I in no way meant to indicate I took part in that test. I just thought it had high "coolness factor".

smell a conspiracy !

[phreakv6]

James Bond where are you ???

Re:smell a conspiracy !

[Agret]

This sounds more like a job for 'Barf' than anyone.

Unconfirmed reports

[LiquidCoooled]

Reports are coming in that this is the first in a barrage of retaliatory strikes by the Saturnian governing body.

In a statement, President Bleaaaarghhhhhhhhhhhhhhian said "Puny humans, stay away from our planet".

Who are Intelsat?

[barcodez]

Well I didn't know so for others here is a summary of Intelsat

Re:Who are Intelsat?

[maxwell demon]

From Wikipedia: Intelsat maintains it headquarters in Bermuda
Bermuda? And then anyone wonders that their satellites disappear?

Re:Who are Intelsat?

[DMUTPeregrine]

If I had mod points, I'd give that a funny. As I don't I'll say that incorporating offshore in locations such as bermuda is a common tax shelter.

Re:Who are Intelsat?

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one think that Intel should get out of the satellite business, and stick to the chipmaking business. With satellites crashing, it gives people a distinct *Microsoft* impression.

Sunspot

[Anonymous Coward]

Could this possibly be related to the huge coronal mass ejection i read about Jan 15 sorry no story link but it found a picture
http://www.spaceweather.com/images2005/16jan05/mid i140.gif

Re:Sunspot

[Anonymous Coward]

http://spaceweather.com/ news on front page
also check out this cool picture http://spaceweather.com/swpod2005/16jan05/Koeman.j pg

Re:Sunspot

[Tony Hoyle]

Could this possibly be related to the huge coronal mass ejection

Well I never heard it called *that* before....

Re:Sunspot

[digitalchinky]

The problem with sunspot activity and satellites is that there are a few 'thousand' functional satellites orbiting (or geostationary) at any given moment. If it's a numbers game, then the tin foil hat croud will need to re-think, since there is no consipracy. It just broke. A random failure in a sea of success. These things are shielded up pretty good. I've worked this trade for a long time (Military/Civil), I've not heard of many failures put down to the sun.

Sure there are numerous little problems - failed transponders and such - but these things fly with backups of most things.

You can download small programs that plot the locations of most known birds - real time 3d graphics, based on ephemeris.

Of course, SBRS and ADSCS will be mildly inconvenienced at having to 'work' for a few days - heh. It's their area of operations.

Re:Sunspot

[CmdrGravy]

I was wondering that as well, we were supposed to be able see the Northen lights from the Midlands in the UK last night - I didn't see a thing mind you.

Re:Sunspot

[Cow Jones]

the tin foil hat croud will need to re-think, since there is no consipracy. It just broke. A random failure in a sea of success.

In related news, I just wanted to mention, for those who have asked,
that absolutely nothing whatsoever happened today in sector 83x9x12.
I repeat, nothing happened.
Please remain calm.

Re:Sunspot

[Mz6]

I think the program you are thinking about is STK, or Satellite Tool Kit. You can download it for free for a short trial period and can track satellites in real-time.

Satellite Took Kit - http://www.stk.com

Re:Sunspot

[Anonymous Coward]

As the summary states, IS-804 was lost on January 14th; an event that happened the following day was probably not the cause. ;-)

Re:Sunspot

[Anonymous Coward]

We can only assume that you're burning karma at a vastly accelerated rate....

Re:Sunspot

[LurkerXXX]

As a member of the Alliance, I demand to know what happened in sector 83x9x12!

Re:Sunspot

[waynelorentz]

Could this possibly be related to the huge coronal mass ejection i read about Jan 15

Hey, I tapped her on the head. What more could I do?

Re:Sunspot

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly, the failure of JCSAT 5 ( http://www.jsat.net/en/release/20050118.html ) at 12:26 GMT coincides very closely to the peak of some ugly space weather ( http://www.sec.noaa.gov/today.html )

Correlation != Causation and all that ... but it's damn tight.

Re:Sunspot

[Kehvarl]

Nothing at all happened in sector 83x9x12. Please report to briefing room 23 at Alliance HQ. Sit in the blue chair.

Stop thinking that.

Re:Sunspot

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is more analysis/discussion of the CME

http://www.rense.com/general61/ussun.htm

Re:Sunspot

[onepoint]

Your are not permitted to know that nothing happeded in sector 83x9x12

Maybe the other one called ?

[Maavin]

Could it be that Intelsat-7 found something interesting while being AWOL and called his friend to come and see it, too ?

sigh

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn it, I told you not to post a link to one of the satellites on /. again! Do you hear me?!

Gratuitously Off-Topic...

[Ford Prefect]

... but still space-related:

New Titan panorama from Huygens! Complete with a worryingly Earth-like 'coastline' - I don't think anyone's decided if the dark areas actually contain any liquid or not, but still utterly intriguing. ;-)

Oh, and now back to our scheduled broadcast. Satellite losses, not good. Big investment and all that, and long lead-time to launching replacements. Whatever!

Re:Gratuitously Off-Topic...

[Jugalator]

I still believe Daniel Crotty's work on puzzling together those from their raw data was better. :-)

His mosaics

Re:Gratuitously Off-Topic...

[Jugalator]

Hmm, even more here btw...

Re:Gratuitously Off-Topic...

[Ford Prefect]

I still believe Daniel Crotty's work on puzzling together those from their raw data was better. :-)

Ooh - hadn't seen those, thanks!

Definitely in take-with-large-pinch-of-salt territory, but perhaps an indication of what's officially to come. I imagine most of the real Huygens investigators are still nursing terrible hangovers, to be honest... ;-)

Re:Gratuitously Off-Topic...

[Anonymous Coward]

Has any one checked that we aren't really seeing earth coastlines. Remember that NORAD scare a few decades ago, when some technician left a training scenario tape hooked up to the main sensor inputs?

Hmm, isn't that Barbara Streisand's house there on the left?

no it's just a dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

nothing to see here

I for one . . . Nah, no I don't

[CharonIDRONES]

*puts on tin foil hat*
I'm safe, right?
RIGHT?!
Run for the hills! AAHH!
*becomes another insane /.er living in the hills with a tin foil hat on*

Re:I for one . . . Nah, no I don't

[PornMaster]

BARMAN: What, isn't there anything we can do?

FORD: No, nothing.

BARMAN: Well, I always though we were to lie down and put a
paper bag over our head or something.

FORD: If you like, yes.

BARMAN: Well, will that help?

FORD: No. Excuse me, I've got to find my friend.

Re:I for one . . . Nah, no I don't

[MrScience]

You have been hit in the head by a brick.

You have died.

(From the game, of course).

Re:I for one . . . Nah, no I don't

[Anonymous Coward]

This is funny!? It is no wonder most think people who work in IT are strange. Whoever scores these posts needs to get out more!

Cause?

[ceeam]

Is it because of increased Solar activity? Can the real cause be ever discovered? If it's because of the Sun, can we have protective magnetic fields (akin to Earth's own) generated around our space vehicles in emergency? Like - if we ever go to Mars won't it be better to have active shielding instead of thick lead plating? (I know nothing)

Re:Cause?

[PolystyreneMan]

Don't be surprised if the problem turns out to be another occurrence of tin whiskers: http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/09/083 3254&from=rss A real big problem in the industry right now.

Re:Cause?

[Detritus]

Some spacecraft have experienced problems with static electrical charges building up on the spacecraft. These can cause damage or catastrophic failure. See this.

oh shit...

[Anonymous Coward]

we slashdotted another one.

Perhaps they should have used AMDsat

[Tony Hoyle]

Or even Cyrixsat... altough that would have probably overheated long before now :)

Possible Reasons for satellite loss

[Rob Carr]

1. Bad luck
2. Systemic design flaw
3. Target practice for satellite-destroying technology
4. Giant space-bat's radar fried satellites

I'd bet on 1 or 2, 3 is an outside possibility, and 4 the result of eating cold pizza for breakfast. It's worth noting that (as near as I can tell from SpaceWeather.com, there were no solar flares when the second satellite was lost. So if the satellite was lost to a design flaw, at least it's not due to poor protection from solar flares.

Re:Possible Reasons for satellite loss

[Frogbert]

I heard the work experiance kid lost it.

Re:Possible Reasons for satellite loss

[gnugie]

It's interesting that you list bad luck and a design flaw as possible causes, but don't list manufacturing defects. Most satellites are one-off items, and the FTQ for such devices is well-known to be 0%. Every satellite built requires significant rework so that it works correctly. I'm not suggesting this as the cause, but given the history of defects, I'd list it slightly above bad luck or a systemic design flaw.

Re:Possible Reasons for satellite loss

[_Hellfire_]

Could it have been the tin-whiskers phenomena? I could imagine a tin-whisker growing out, shorting across two critical circuits and there you have it, one dark satellite.

I got asked by a customer recently how come satellites can stay up there for 20+ years without failure and their PC can blow a power supply after 3 months of use. I said "Your power supply didn't cost 3 million dollars."

"Oh."

Re:Possible Reasons for satellite loss

[NardofDoom]

Let me be the first of many to point out that terrestrial bats don't have radar, just so nobody is confused. They have sonar, like dolphins, only in the air and while flying. It would be like you running through the forest at night screaming at the top of your lungs and listening for the echo to keep from running into trees.

Space bats, however, would have to have radar or lidar because sound cannot travel in space.

Re:Possible Reasons for satellite loss

[Rob Carr]

That's what I get for going for the cheap space-bat laugh. I'd thought about that, but left it off the list.

You bring up a good point. But when you lose two in a short period of time, the first thing you ask is if there is a common flaw that will then take out more of the same series of satellites. Even one-off items can share history, basic design and operating procedures.

I put bad luck first because bad things tend to cluster. Of course they do - if they were spaced out in time at regular intervals, that would be darn freaky!

Re:Possible Reasons for satellite loss

[AK Marc]

But when you lose two in a short period of time, the first thing you ask is if there is a common flaw that will then take out more of the same series of satellites.

My understanding is that these were manufactured by different companies with absolutely no parts or design in common, and were up for varying lengths of time. Whatever got them wasn't related to them sharing parts.

Re:Possible Reasons for satellite loss

[stuktongue]

I work in the satellite industry. You are right that the two satellites were manufactured by two separate organizations. However, different companies's approved parts lists do share common vendor parts and various industry standard processes are more or less similar. So, it is possible that a common M&P issue is at the root of the problem. Tin whiskers is a good example of this.

It is also worth looking into workmanship.

Lockheed-Martin's root cause investigation will cover all the bases in its attempt to isolate the cause. Hopefully, if the cause does have industry reach-across, the word will get out to the rest of us.

Re:Possible Reasons for satellite loss

[stuktongue]

A generally good answer... based on fact with enough humor to sink in. The truth is, though, that unit power supplies don't cost that much. Actually, DC-DC converters are pretty mature technology... thousands would be more accurate.

It is good to see the Slashdot crowd being so up on tin whiskers and willing to consider it. As I've commented in the past, when tin whiskers first emerged as a problem, the community didn't buy into it. Only as a result of extensive demonstrative testing were people convinced the problem was real. Real enough to spend a lot of money reworking hardware well into the manufacturing pipeline.

I think the lesson to take from tin whiskers is that one needs to keep an open mind as to the cause of problems of unknown origin. Resist the temptation to leap to conclusions and consider all the possibilities.

Poll options

[eclectro]

1) Solar Flux
2) Those darn Russians
3) Sensor installed upside down
4) Kids with laser pointers
5) Meteorite
6) Tax purposes
7) Unfriendly UFO
8) Overheating
9) Autodestruct after two-weeks of reruns

Re:Poll options

[bheer]

You forgot... global warming :-)

Re:Poll options

[stiebing.ja]

10:-) Those darn islamic terrorists

Re:Poll options

[farnerup]

10) S.P.E.C.T.R.E.

Re:Poll options

[Anonymous Coward]

Beat me to it. :-(

How about Captain Midnight?

Re:Poll options

[Anonymous Coward]

10) Slashdoting

Re:Poll options

[jaavaaguru]

11) Metal whiskers causing a short circuit.

Re:Poll options

[term8or]

You forgot the most obvious option:

10) Microsoft.

Re:Poll options

[BESTouff]

0) Runs WindowsCE

-1 Obvious

Re:Poll options

[Anonymous Coward]

Where is the CmdrTaco option ?

Re:Poll options

[Anonymous Coward]

10) Cowboy Neal

Re:Poll options

[Anonymous Coward]

Naw, you forgot -

10) pWn3d

It hasn't been lost, it's only working for someone else, telling the world about how they can enlarge their penis...

Re:Poll options

[Anonymous Coward]

(10) Microsoft

Re:Poll options

[rob_squared]

10. Gou'a'uld

Re:Poll options

[sharkey]

V'GER

Re:Poll options

[MegaHyster]

sucide bomber? how the...

Lost due solar storm?!

[af_robot]

I think it may be related with a geomagnetic storming from a sun.
read more in news:
The large and dynamic active sunspot region, numbered by NOAA as Region 720, has produced several strong solar events. Five large solar flares produced moderate (R2) to strong (R3) radio blackouts since 15 January. The largest of these solar eruptions, an X3.8 on the GOES-12 x-ray sensor, occurred today at 17/0659 UTC (near local midnight MST). Short-wave radio communications through the sunlit hemisphere of Earth experienced significant signal degradation during these solar flares.
Associated strong geomagnetic and radiation storms are underway. The radiation storm began on 16/0210 UTC (15 January, 7:10 P.M. MST) and is currently at the S3 (strong level). A G3 (strong) geomagnetic storm began early on the 17th (UTC) and remains in progress. The geomagnetic storm is associated with two coronal mass ejections (CMEs) observed on SOHO/LASCO imagery on 15 January.

Solar Terrestrial Activity Report

Re:Lost due solar storm?!

[Rob Carr]

Satellite lost on January 14th, 5:32 EST, which is 12:32 UTC. The CMEs and radio blackouts you report were 7:10 UTC January 15th.

There don't appear to have been any warnings on the 14th. It's unlikely it was fried by a solar flare.

Re:Lost due solar storm?!

[Anonymous Coward]

It was 5:32 PM EST which is 2232 UTC. There was a sudden onset of a largish (although not huge) geomagnetic storm at about this time. One aspect of these storms is the injection of high energy electrons and protons into the geostationary orbit ring, which can result in deep and often high-voltage charging of geostationary satellites. If said satellite is already charged, it doesn't take much to push into a catastrophic discharge within the satellite somewhat akin to a lightning bolt.

That said, this particular satellite was at the time around local noon, which would delay the impact of these high-energy particles. On the other hand, if the shock in the solar wind that started the geomagnetic disturbance was large enough it can compress the earth's magnetosphere such that the geostationary orbit ring is suddenly outside the earth's magnetosphere. I've not heard of this triggering a discharge, but there are currents that flow on the outer boundary of the magnetosphere and crossing it might again be enough to push an already-charged satellite into discharge.

Dr. Evil

[Anonymous Coward]

I blame Dr. Evil

Austin Powers to the rescue, Satashaggadalic baby!!!

*cough* bullshit *cough*

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya right they "lost" it, more like they are covering up that it's really a CIA satellite and they have transferred control of the hardware back the government.

Satellite? What satellite? It was lost in space back in 2005!

Probably not...

[morzel]

Since the satellite failed on Jan 14, which is before the start of the flares.

Another satellite down?

[node 3]

Do I have to do everything around here?

Just a moment while I get my old PowerBook so I can upload the virus to the alien ship.

Bastards keep trying to take them over so they can communicate around the Earth (they traveled like 6 million light-years to get here and they didn't know the Earth was round?).

Does this affect my broadband connection? Noooo. I don't even know why I bother...

Re:Another satellite down?

[Anonymous Coward]

"(they traveled like 6 million light-years to get here and they didn't know the Earth was round?)"

It looked square on the CCD image, just like all the other stars.

Re:Another satellite down?

[maxwell demon]

You uploaded a virus to an object in space which you thought to be an alien spaceship? That could explain the satellite failure ... :-)

Re:Another satellite down?

[Luthair]

I've never understood that part of Independence Day; Macs aren't compatible with anything down here, how likely would it be for an Alien ship to be :)

Then again it would explain a lot about Steve Jobs...

Re:Another satellite down?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually Macs are highly compatible with just about anything. If it were a windows laptop he was using it would have blue screened when trying to load the alien interface driver which caused a dll conflict.

How about JCSAT-1B?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm, curious. I'm assuming that this is NOT the same as the Japanese JCSAT-1B, operated by JSAT (a Japanese company). It has gone "out" as of today. Latest news is that a thruster broke down and it changed directions a bit. All communication channels are currently out cold. FYI, JCSAT-1B was built by Boeing. 3 satellites going out in just a couple months? Makes you think, no?

Re:How about JCSAT-1B?

[colinleroy]

What makes me think is the complete lack of results in google news when searching for JCSAT-1B and the irrelevance of the news about JSAT, combined with you posting as an AC.

Re:How about JCSAT-1B?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, so I posted AC, and you couldn't find anything on Google news. Here are a few links for your liking, although you're gonna need to use the 'fish unless you read Japanese. (I accompanied a very brief overview of the pages.)

From Yahoo! Japan News:
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20050118- 0000002 6-mai-soci

21:26 JST, Jan. 17, JCSAT-1B experiencing problems, 50 companies renting bandwidth unable to communicate.

From the horse's (JSAT's mouth):
http://www.jsat.net/release/20050118_1.ht ml

Cause speculated as being related to a broken thruster "tilting" the satellite.
04:00 JST, Jan. 18, switching to manual mode and running diagnosis.

Google News is cool. It doesn't cover everything though. Let this be your lesson.

Re:How about JCSAT-1B?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, here's an even better one.

http://www.jsat.net/en/release/20050118.html

English press release. Believe it now?

Titanians to blame?

[Anonymous Coward]

The titanians are angry that we landed the huygens probe on their land that same day, so they decided to kidnap a satellite in retaliation..

UK TV

[Anonymous Coward]

You've been watching "Alias" last night on 'Five' (UK). :)

(But 12:20am? WHY? WHY? WHY? I hate UK TV!!!!!!)

This picture just in...

[Zog The Undeniable]

It's those damn SPECTRE chappies again!

Re:This picture just in...

[GQuon]

Speaking of that scene ... why don't we ever hear about the satellite that is filming the capture? Or are the images provided by a high-powered telescope on the moon?

Re:This picture just in...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's actually THRUSH doing it.

Ahhh!!!!!

[punkrockguy318]

aliens!!!!

Found another possible reason the satellites died

[Rob Carr]

Intelsat only insures satellites worth $150 million or more. These sats were worth $73 million each, so they weren't insured.

For those of us who moved out of our parent's basement, it's a far too-well known phenomenon.

Ooops!

[tompercival]

"To lose one satellite may be regarded as a misfortune... to lose both seems like carelessness".

Re:Ooops!

[ikandi]

Bad day for Intelsat, great day for the Chinese No4 Celestial Dragon ASAT ploglam.

Re:Ooops!

[quarkscat]

The actual problem can be traced back to
IntelSat's adoption of a MS Java-based
ground control system (from Lockheed M&DS).
The WinXP platforms have been upgraded to
SP2 without their IT security officer's
approval. During the brief time that the
computers were exposed to MS Update on the
internet, they were compromised.

A consortium of the Russian mob and the
North Koreans (AKA SPECTRE) are now trying
to blackmail IntelSat/Lockheed, one comm
satellite at a time. Right now they are
only shutting them down, but there is the
prospect that they will start de-orbiting
them.

(... takes off tin foil hat to put on a
contruction hardhat ...)

Explanation

[jaavaaguru]

It's reasonably likely that Metal Whiskers can caused this. Nasa also has more information about this pehnomenon. Both links I've provided have nice pics.

Re:Explanation

[jafuser]

That's a very interesting phenemenon. Thanks for the links!

It's neat to know we haven't quite figured everything out yet, even about simple things like this =)

Evil Accountants?

[FEEBLE*BMX]

So let me get this straight. Their satellite fries and they just transfer everyone over to unused bandwidth on their other satellites. Then they declare a $73 million dollar loss on their taxes. Does this fall into fiscal 2004 or 2005?

Re:Evil Accountants?

[digitalchinky]

I used to survey satellite downlinks in my previous life - the majority of satellites had large chunks of unused bandwidth - in some cases a few newly launched sats had their entire C and K band 'empty' - mostly Japanese owned birds.

Intelsat has always been well loaded, they even palm off satellites in decayed orbits to various asian countries (deemed to be end of lifed) - probably just to eek out as much money as possible. I doubt intelsat will be happy about this. There is huge competition in the industry, it's no tax write off.

Re:Evil Accountants?

[mav[LAG]]

probably just to eek out as much money as possible.

Intelsat exec: This is how much it will cost - take it or leave it.
Asian sat bandwidth buyer: Eeek!

Tin Whiskers

[Anonymous Coward]

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/09/083 3254&tid=128&tid=126

Where to look

[dave-tx]

Just keep an eye out on ebay - like all "missing" merchandise, it'll show up eventually. Shipping charges will be a bitch, though.

Re:Where to look

[ek_adam]

No, it'll just be "customer pick up".

Re:Where to look

[Anonymous Coward]

Shipping charges will be a bitch, though.

Why? All it takes is one long burn of one of the station keeping thrusters, and it delivers itself.

Poor Info!

[iamnotacrook]

Wikipedia is well off there .. for example the chinese government satellite organization has been bigger for some time, and Intelsat peaked around the early 1990's in terms of satellite numbers.

Erm, shouldn't that be

[BinaryCodedDecimal]

Shouldn't that be:

"Intesat reported a few days ago that its IS-804 Satellite is LOOOOST INNNNN SPAAAAAACE."

Hmmm?

I think it's the NRO

[Corellon Larethian]

The National Reconnaissance Office wanted extra coverage over Iraq, so they re-orbited some of their concealed spy satellites and used the satellite-stealth technology to do it. Intelsat is just mad because they weren't given enough money, so they released this news blurb as a warning to the neocons in the Bush administration.

*jumps on the conspiracy bandwagon*

and i say

[diablobsb]

With a gandalf voice

"They are coming!"

Obligatory Red October Reference...

[vudufixit]

(Dr. Jeffrey Pelt to Ambassador Andrei Lysenko near the end of the movie) "You're lost another one??" Richard Jordan was great in that small role. Shame we lost him.

Re:Obligatory Red October Reference...

[AKnightCowboy]

Richard Jordan was great in that small role. Shame we lost him.

When's the last time you saw him? He'll probably turn up somewhere. I lost my car keys once and I found them in my winter coat pocket.

Re:Obligatory Red October Reference...

[vudufixit]

When I held a seance? He died in 1993 of a brain tumor - not a good way to go.

Re:Obligatory Red October Reference...

[strelitsa]

I had no idea he has passed. He played a good Duncan Idaho.

Re:Obligatory Red October Reference...

[vandoravp]

So the satellites are hunting each other now? Guess it had to happen sometime or another, satellite cannibalism.

Actually...

[derfy]

I would prefer goatse and tubgirl compared to the current craptastic TV shows on nowadays...

Anomaly They Wish

[ReadParse]

They were both described as electrical anomalies, but...

anomaly - Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule.

Clearly this is becoming, for them, the rule.

What goes up ...

[Tribbin]

... must come down.

At least that is what they keep saying.

Don't put...

[Anonymous Coward]

SP in the Satellite!...

clemare

Correct my physics!

[h4rm0ny]

I know that the US military have done semi-successful trials of this sort of anti-satellite technology so it must be feasible.

Playing with some numbers gives me this however:
Height of Satellite: 35,000km.
Powerful Laser peak pulse: 250,000w.

Power of laser on reaching satellite =
2.5x10^5 / (3.5x10^7)^2
2.0x10^-9 watts.

Fractions of milliwatts does not sound much to me, but pulsing hundreds of times per second, and kept up for a few minutes would start to heat things up yes? How fast can a satellite dissipate heat in a vaccuum?

Anyone who remembers their physics better than I, or has a better idea of laser power, give some insight into this?

Re:Correct my physics!

[Detritus]

The Sun puts out 1368 W/m^2 at Earth's orbit, so I don't think your hypothetical laser would even be noticed.

Re:Correct my physics!

[maxwell demon]

Sorry, but if you divide a power by the square of a length, then you don't get a power, but power per area (also known as energy flux).

Your calculation would be right if
a) the laser had an opening angle of 45 degrees (so radius of covered area equals distance of light),
b) the satellite had a cross section of exactly 1 square meter and
c) there would be vacuum between you and the satellite.

Now b is not impossible, but a would imply a rather badly focused beam. OTOH c would imply reduced power.

According to this article, a laser gives a spot with a diameter of 7km on the moon (distance 3.6*10^8 m), so at the point of the satellite it would be 7000/3.6e8 * 3.5e7 m = ca. 680 m, which assuming a circular spot gives an area of 3.6e5 m^2.

If there were no atmosphere, for your 250 kW laser pulse, this would amount to an energy flux of about 0.69 W/m^2. Orders of magnitude above your value, but still too low to do any harm (for comparison, the total energy flux of an 80W light bulb [light and heat together, i.e. taking the complete 80W into account] is about 6.4 W/m^2. That is, a 2.5 megawatt laser would generate the same energy flux at the satellite as a 80W lightbulb would.

Now, what will the satellite have to cope with anyway? Well, obviously the sun. Now, the energy flux of the sun above atmosphere is 1370W/m^2. That is, even the 2.5 megawatt laser would just add 0.5% to the energy flux the sun throws at the satellite anyway.

That's of course without taking into account the atmosphere.

Re:Correct my physics!

[maxwell demon]

That is, a 2.5 megawatt laser would generate the same energy flux at the satellite as a 80W lightbulb would.

Errr ... I should actually have used the review button.
This sentence is obviously missing something. It should read:
That is, a 2.5 megawatt laser from the surface of earth would generate the same energy flux at the satellite as a 80W lightbulb would from a distance of 1 meter.

Also in the previous sentence, s/80W light bulb/80W light bulb at the distance of 1 meter/.

Ah, and I just noticed that I forgot to close the parentheses ...

Re:Correct my physics!

[amorsen]

I have no idea what you're calculating. Let's do the unit analysis (it's easy): 2.5*10^5W / (3.5*10^7m)^2 = 2.0*10^-9W/m2 (not W, as you proposed).

Assuming that a laser beam is sufficiently well focused to cover no more than the area of the satellite, and that the atmosphere makes no difference, the full 250kW will be delivered to the satellite. Both assumptions are questionable of course.

Re:Correct my physics!

[Muad'Dave]

Correct my physics!

Ok, I'll give it a go. Lasers are not point sources - the formula you used is for an isotropic radiator, not a beam source. You'd need to know the divergence of the laser to calculate the power/m2 at the satellite. Also, your peak pulse power is off by about a factor of 10-20 (or more...)

Say the beam half-angle divergence of your 250 kW laser is 1 milliradian (mrad) (pretty crappy). At 35,000 km, the beam will be at least 35*tan(0.001)*2 = 70 km wide. That's only 65 uW/m2. Not even bright, much less cripplin'.

Increase the intensity of the beam to 5 MW and reduce the divergence to .25 mrad, and you get a beam 8750*2 = 17.5 km across and a power density of only 20 mW/m2. That's less than a class II supermarket scanner laser.

Damaging a geostationary sat is hard with a laser!

Re:Correct my physics!

[h4rm0ny]

That is, a 2.5 megawatt laser from the surface of earth would generate the same energy flux at the satellite as a 80W lightbulb would from a distance of 1 meter..

The nice thing about admitting your ignorance publicly, is that you have to do it less often as you go on. Thanks to those who've explained how to work it out.

It's looking pretty darn unlikely then that anyone even could have targeted a satelite with such a weapon. I was never suggesting that this had occured, but I remembered the US military doing tests of this nature. I've done some more digging and for anyone interested, they used this. The laser is in the megawatt range and powered by rocket fuel. Pretty impressive, but as you've calculated, all it did was "illuminate" the satelite.

Shame the USAF didn't post an "Ask Slashdot" first. ;)

Re:Correct my physics!

[Suchetha]

if i remember the laser physics i learned from reading "cardinal of the kremlin" the problem is not just power, but also "atmospheric blooming." iirc this was atmosphere fluctuations caused by the laser heating up the dust and other microparticles in its path. i have NO idea how accurate this idea is, so feel free to corect me.

Suchetha

precursor to attack

[Anonymous Coward]

Was this satellite overloaded? Did it receive too much of an uplink signal (possibly from the wrong direction)?

Is there a sub-band signal that is appearing on multiple transponders on other birds? Does it appear to be a minor amount of distortion but be consistent across birds? Does the signal have a repetition rate of about 1 Hz with an apparent noise component well below the threshold of typical receivers? Does it emanate from a source that can't be pinpointed or that appears to come from the direction of Titan? Could we have disturbed something?

Maybe we are under attack. This could be the first phase. First they blind us. Then they attack our cities. Then we respond. According to the previously published timetable, we have until early July. Better prepare now.

Re:precursor to attack

[maxwell demon]

Well, learning from Mars Attacks, I'll instantly go and buy some very obnoxious type of music ...

Re:precursor to attack

[lineman60]

like what, the latest Brittny album?

Sunspots

[dj245]

IS-804 Satellite is lost in space.

Danger, Danger IS-804!

Pay no mind

[Anonymous Coward]

87% of the time these publicly reported "failures" of intelligence/spy satellites are just cover stories for them to move the satellite to another orbit to spy on another target nation, it's just obfuscation...

Re:Pay no mind

[Anonymous Coward]

It's kind of hard to spy on someone with a communication sattelite however...

Re:Found another possible reason the satellites di

[Max von H.]

Well, there could be another reason... Quoth the same article:

"Under the terms of the Transaction Agreement and Plan of Amalgamation for the sale of Intelsat dated August 16, 2004, among Intelsat, Ltd., Intelsat (Bermuda), Ltd., Zeus Holdings Limited (Zeus Holdings), Zeus Merger One Limited and Zeus Merger Two Limited, the total loss of the IS-804 satellite gives Zeus Holdings the right to not consummate the acquisition of Intelsat. Zeus Holdings has advised Intelsat that it is evaluating the impact of the IS-804 failure."

floating in space

[jchuillier]

INTELsat as in INTEL pentium ? Maybe the floating bug doesn't float too well in space, although with zero-g it should....

Re:floating in space

[Anonymous Coward]

No... intelsat as in intelsat

Re:floating in space

[conteXXt]

yeah it went F00F

Try the fish...

Did anyone look...

[MikeyToo]

under the couch cushions? I'm always finding stuff there.

Why link to wikipedia??

[sczimme]

I'm honestly curious: why would you link to wikipedia instead of to Intelsat itself?

This came up in a discussion last week: someone had linked to a wikipedia entry for Tripwire (the company) instead of linking to Tripwire.com. Wouldn't it make more sense to get information directly from the source (and form one's own opinion) instead of reading the material at Wikipedia (which is essentially someone else's opinion)?

Re:Why link to wikipedia??

[squiggleslash]

I can't speak for either of those two examples, but I can't be the only person who has stumbled across a website for some organization, spent ten minutes browsing it, and still been totally confused as to what it is they actually do.

Wikipedia can be nice because it gets to the point.

Re:Why link to wikipedia??

[iantri]

Wikipedia is not "someone's opinion"; it is supposed to be neutral, and factual.

A company's own website can't make that claim.

Re:Why link to wikipedia??

[meadowsp]

So how do you know that it's not the people from the company itself who created the wikipedia page?

Re:Why link to wikipedia??

[waynelorentz]

Wikipedia is not "someone's opinion"; it is supposed to be neutral, and factual.

Yes, Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral and factual, but very often it isn't, and from what I've read more often than not it is someone's opinion. I've read a dozen or so Wikipedia articles on the industry I'm in that were obviously written by outsiders with strong opinions, rather than people who actualy have the facts. Fact-checking and vetting are two very good things that Wikipedia lacks. I don't blame Wikipedia. It's just a flaw in the Wiki philosophy.

Re:Why link to wikipedia??

[Anonymous Coward]

At least wikipedia is supposed to be factual and neutral, but the comapny web page in question isn't even supposed to be that. Websites for companies are usually neither factual, neutral, most often as someone else pointed out, rarely even informative.

You can usual pick out the biased parts of wikipedia yourself as you read and discard them.

Try spending 30 seconds at each page, then step back see how much you actually got out of each page. One's like, ooo pretty pictures, they other is, ooo text, I can actually read that.

-- gid

lost sat

[Anonymous Coward]

There is currently a proton event going on with solar flairs, I am sure that had something to do with it.

Lazer

[Aldes13]

Maybe someone was pointing one of those new green lasers up at the satellite and redirected its trajectory.

here is the real conspiracy...

[sailforsingapore]

Isn't that about the same time that Livejournal went down? THEY ARE COMING FOR US!!!1!!!1!

James Bond said...

[Sauber]

...You Only Live Twice. remember, that huge space cucumber eating US and CCCP space ships? That's what it was!

Intel

[Anonymous Coward]

Tes dear Slashdoters it's for real: The satellite was taken down by Intel lawyers for trademark infringement!!!

yeah, martians...

[soapdog]

it's just that this mark the beggining of the "Martian All Out Probe Shooting Season", during this time, our green friends shoot all earth tech they can see in space... some green men must have got long range laser for xmas this year, thats all... nothing to see here, move along.

Actually, Intelsat-7 was not lost

[UrbanATB]

In early December, they were able to recover I-7.

http://www.intelsat.com/aboutus/press/release_deta ils.aspx?year=2004&art=20041203_01_EN.xml&lang=en& footer=82

It appears they have put at least some transponders back in service.

Re:Actually, Intelsat-7 was not lost

[Anonymous Coward]

" The exact cause of the anomaly is still being investigated, in cooperation with Space Systems/Loral, the satellite's manufacturer, and ** Loral Skynet **, each of whom participated in the recovery effort."

Mmmhmm...

- R

Re:Actually, Intelsat-7 was not lost

[calandryll]

Acutally they already know what the problem is. My father works for Intelsat, he was for the most responsible for the recovery, of course it was why I didn't see him much when I was home for Christmas. He is senior engineering in control. It leads back to the power system, fortunately 7 had a backup and they were able to restore it. 804 does not have the backup so it's gone for good just some more space junk. Of course 7 was built by the French and as he told me was a piece of crap.

possumsat

[Doc Ruby]

Others have suggested that some of these "lost" satellites are merely being delivered to the CIA, NSA, DIA or other covert agency (perhaps not American). Especially if they're backups, silent until needed in a crisis, they'd be probably impossible to easily detect as working. And it's much more expensive for antisatellite weapons to target every "dead" satellite in orbit on the chance that a few are just playing dead for a new master.

Re:possumsat

[AviLazar]

Lets rule out American organizations. Why?:
With the funding they get and the clout they possess, they can have any number of satellites without our knowledge floating around in space. Hell they are probably watching your pr0n collection over your shoulder RIGHT now!

As for foreign countries - if they are capable of hijacking a satellite, you would think they would be capable of sending one up on their own. Not like "evil" countries don't already have their own satellites.

Re:possumsat

[Doc Ruby]

Americans don't even ask about covert government activities anymore. No, this technique is a way to attempt to keep spy satellites secret from foreign countries and "enemy" corporations. Their functions can be generic, even exactly suitable for their cover story - the secret is that they'll spring to life with video/data coverage in the hands of a different viewer, should they be actually deployed later.

Re:possumsat

[AviLazar]

And while in the hands of evil people this can be bad I am of the mindset that most of our government do actually have our overall interests at heart. So while it might be "scary" to think that a TV sat is a spy sat, it is good to know we have such things around too. They might save us at some given time - or potentially catch a criminal.

Now, another reason I am not particularly worried about spy satellites is because I don't exactly do illegal activities. That and I do not have a window on my roof, I am not to worried if the CIA wants to track me going from home to work, to the bar, and tripping myself all the way back home because I am obliterated from all the vodka, triple sec, and tequilla I swallowed.

Re:possumsat

[Cobalt Jacket]

OK, so let's look at the two possibilities: 1) The U.S. Government goes through the exercise of stealing, or at least diverting an existing commercial satellite to allow them to use it for their own goals, and they do it in a highly visible manner. Or... 2) They simply use stealth satellites that they already know how to build. Perhaps they use supposedly dummy warheads, or piggyback it on an existing launch. An excellent candidate would be the Delta IV Heavy payload that "failed" a few months ago. But anyhow, look up Mystic...it's a stealth satellite program.

Re:possumsat

[Doc Ruby]

I'm not talking about stealing or otherwise truly diverting commercial satellites. Or having a hidden satellite. Just have a commercial satellite "fail", in orbit, but hand control over to the government agency, instead. Among all the satellites in orbit, they don't have to expend resources (including management/political) to hide "their" satellite from anyone. Later, when a dead one comes to life in a crisis, it's a surprise, but too late to do anything about it. It's social engineering stealth: much cheaper and more reliable.

Re:possumsat

[waynelorentz]

How about a less-paranoid conspiracy theory -- the owner of the satellite knew it had a flaw, or was approaching the end of its usable life or something, and just had it "fail" to collect the insurance money.

This brings back memories of when Galaxy IV disappeared a few years back. I was downlinking a transmission when it just faded away. It was very strange, and set my work back several hours that day until a new bird could be arranged.

Re:possumsat

[maxpublic]

Next you'll be telling us that a super-secret organization known as the "Illuminati" are running the whole shebang. I think you need to watch a little less X-Files.

Max

Re:possumsat

[Doc Ruby]

That's possible, too - in fact, actual failures are more likely than the "possum" scenario I described. But we're posting in a subthread started with the Subject "Conspiracy". And the possums wouldn't work unless most of the reported failures were real. So thinking through the actual failure scenario has its uses in satellite tech, while the possum scenario is a useful tool for exploring the covert world.

Re:possumsat

[Doc Ruby]

Next you'll be telling us "I'm from the government - I'm here to help". You need to stay glued to your coincidence theory shows more.

Re:possumsat

[lukestuts]

Hell they are probably watching your pr0n collection over your shoulder RIGHT now!

Well the joke's on them - I get off to goatse!

Re:possumsat

[Anonymous Coward]

"Now, another reason I am not particularly worried about spy satellites is because I don't exactly do illegal activities. "

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist; - Martin Niemoller

you dont smoke weed when you drink?

Re:possumsat

[stuktongue]

How about a less-paranoid conspiracy theory -- the owner of the satellite knew it had a flaw, or was approaching the end of its usable life or something, and just had it "fail" to collect the insurance money.

From the article, "Intelsat expects to record a non-cash impairment charge of approximately $73 million to write off the value of the IS-804 satellite. The IS-804 was not insured, in accordance with Intelsat's practice of insuring only those satellites with a net book value greater than $150 million."

There goes that theory....

INTELsat? bah

[PureCreditor]

Itanic sank, and INTELsat tanked, hmmm i'm definitely seeing a pattern

Re:How about JCSAT-1B? NKorean "war" to start

[Anonymous Coward]

the three MASSIVE total satellite outagges are part of a US denial to allow easy uploads for CNN,FOXNEWS,MSNBC for fresh vids during the upcomming raid on key north korean military targets soon.

any sats utilized during actual activities will be neutralized as well with these serving as reminders as to how serious the threat is.

Just wait until the "SDAMs" start being deployed in NKorea. The miltiary softenned the puplic up to "JDAM" weapons by using the word JDAM multiple times in almost every CNN broadcast release.

SDAMs are already scrubbed from google searches. Some SDAMs are efficient. 100 times more clean and efficient thatn a W87 warhead, but and SDMA is an SDAM.

The US will call these "Bunker Busting" bombs.

You can call an SDAM a micro-nuke

Follow the money

[Anonymous Coward]

now we know where the missing billions from the defense budget went.

More than one satellite has failed recently

[Scott7477]

I am attaching an article from the Wall Street Journal describing how although this is the first major failure of an Intelsat satellite, the other two major satellite manufacturers in the US have "seen their reputations tarnished by a spate of commercial-spacecraft malfunctions." Given that these are multimillion dollar products and are incredibly critical to the world these days, it is surprising to me that there would be such significant quality control problems.
Also, I'm surprised that I don't see more technical discussion of this issue on /. I would have thought the slashdot crowd would have been all over this. Anyhow, here's the article:

Lockheed Faces Quality Concerns
After Failure of Intelsat Satellite

By ANDY PASZTOR
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
January 18, 2005; Page A6

The sudden loss of a satellite operated by Intelsat Ltd. raises reliability concerns about spacecraft manufactured by Lockheed Martin Corp., which until now managed to avoid the negative publicity over failures that has bedeviled its leading U.S. rivals.

The abrupt shutdown last weekend of Intelsat 804, an eight-year-old Lockheed Martin-built satellite serving the South Pacific, also is likely to prompt greater industrywide efforts to enhance outside insurance coverage or set aside larger in-house reserves to cope with significant malfunctions in orbit.

With the commercial satellite-services industry transitioning to control by various private-equity groups, the financial implications of technical problems are coming under increased scrutiny. "Potential failures clearly are going to be highlighted in the minds" of the new breed of investors, according to Armand Musey, a former Wall Street analyst who helps run Near Earth LLC, a boutique investment bank specializing in space.

Buying additional insurance -- or revising self-insurance plans to minimize the impact of further catastrophic equipment malfunctions -- are bound to be "at the top of the list of fixes," Mr. Musey said.

During the 1990s, U.S. commercial and military space projects costing more than $11 billion either failed to reach appropriate orbits because of rocket failures or didn't operate properly once they got to the correct orbit. More recently, Boeing Co. and Loral Space & Communications Ltd., the other big U.S. satellite makers, have seen their reputations tarnished by a spate of commercial-spacecraft malfunctions.

The causes of those problems range from improperly assembled solar arrays to electrical-power glitches to substandard propulsion systems installed on commercial-communications satellites, some of which carry price tags as high as $150 million. Launch and insurance costs can boost the final price to $250 million or more.

For Intelsat, the No. 2 global commercial-satellite operator, it is the second time since mid-December that a major satellite problem has held up its pending $3 billion takeover by a group of private-equity firms. Instead of anticipating final approval of the transaction this month, Intelsat executives now are being forced back to the negotiating table to hammer out new terms, according to company and industry officials.

Intelsat, which is incorporated in Bermuda but has its headquarters in Washington, is expected to need months to negotiate a revised agreement and then submit the terms for shareholder approval. If the negotiations turn contentious, some industry officials say that could prompt rival bidders to place their own offers.

The satellite that went dead wasn't insured, and Intelsat said it is working with its own fleet and other operators to restore service to customers. Many small Pacific islands relied on the Intelsat satellite for phone and data services. Lockheed Martin, based in Bethesda, Md., has said only that it is working with Intelsat to determine the cause of the shutdown. Most satellites are manufactured to last for about 15 years.

For the broader satellite industry, the latest malfunctio

The ultimate poison pill

[linuxtelephony]

From the article: "...the total loss of the IS-804 satellite gives Zeus Holdings the right to not consummate the acquisition of Intelsat. Zeus Holdings has advised Intelsat that it is evaluating the impact of the IS-804 failure."

Could it be this is their way of getting out of the acquisition of Intelsat by Zeus Holdings? Two satellite failures in about 3 months time is a pretty high failure rate.

Or, I wonder if it could be the tin whiskers reported earlier causing unexpected power failures.

Missing Poster

[xotx69]

They're probably putting up posters as we speak:

"Lost Satellite. Last seen sometime after launch. Big and made of metal. If found, please call IntelSat. We miss it :-("

Sorry to be so picky but..

[mapmaker]

Neither this satellite nor the previous one mentioned got lost.

They were considered a loss because they malfunctioned and are no longer usable. They weren't "lost in space". Intelsat still knows exactly where they are.

Re:Sorry to be so picky but..

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it is "lost" as in "stock losses", or "lost control of"...

That is a legitimate alternative usage of the word "loss" in English.

The funny mental image many of us get of a poor little satellite wandering around & losing its way, or hiding under the couch cushions, is just an artifact of our funny little language. It happens because an inappropriate meaning of the word "lost" comes to mind first.

Cheers :-)

Re:Sorry to be so picky but..

[lifespan]

"Lost" is a much tidier term than "abandoned" or "litter" or "I just dropped it where i finished with it".... ;)

Outsourcing bid

[still cynical]

They're just trying to prove that the private sector can do what NASA does for less money. This was just proof-of-concept. For the full demo they'll slam another one into a planet.

Re:Outsourcing bid

[tfulton2]

Probably an uncontrolled descent into _this_ planet.

Not an Explanation

[maggard]

It's reasonably likely that Metal Whiskers can.

No, it's not likely, reasonably or otherwise.

"Metal whiskers", vacuum deposition, etc. are well recognized issues in satellite construction. After a few thousand birds at many millions a pop the industry is quite savvy about avoiding these.

The impending EU ban on lead in consumer products has no effect on the satellite industry (they're exempt; Li'l Jr. is unlikely to be teething on Intelsat 9008b and most of it's components aren't off-the-shelf but specialized radiation-hardened product runs).

But thank you for reading the previous /. story on this and now trendily applying it to everything trying to sound knowledgable.

"My code won't compile" " Metal whiskers! "

"My candidate lost!" " Metal whiskers! "

"Erectile dysfuntion" (all together now) " Metal whiskers! "

Re:Not an Explanation

[ColdWetDog]

"Erectile dysfuntion" (all together now) " Metal whiskers! "

You've got to admit, this does really follow logically..

Re:Not an Explanation

[stuktongue]

No, it's not likely, reasonably or otherwise.

"Metal whiskers", vacuum deposition, etc. are well recognized issues in satellite construction. After a few thousand birds at many millions a pop the industry is quite savvy about avoiding these.

I've worked in the satellite business for over seventeen years (Boeing Satellite Systems, nee Hughes Space and Communications, Inc.). While I can't comment on what caused the I8 anomaly/loss (since I don't know), I would like to comment on your assertions.

Tin whiskers, a relatively recently discovered M&P problem, is reasonably understood at this point. However, satellites of the vintage of the subject bird (1997) were manufactured before this phenomenon was fully understood. Reachback issues might have prevented the I8 bird, and even more its I7 cousin, from being remedied, in the event that its design was susceptible, which it may or may not have been.

Building hardware for the space environment is non-trivial, to put it lightly. Many phenomena continue to reveal themselves to people who have been working in this business for over 40 years.

The "few thousand birds" comment is funny, though.

Re:Not an Explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

"Using it's instead of its?" METAL WHISKERS!??

Re:Not an Explanation

[maggard]

The "few thousand birds" comment is funny, though.

Are you saying that there haven't been more then 2,000 satellites launched?

I was making a rather confident guess but a minutes searching bring up this AIAA article which seems to confirm my supposition.

Indeed looking at the numbers it seems reasonable to assume the US's aerospace industry alone has launched more then 2,000 satellites in it's history. Heck there are even high schools that have assembled and had satellites launched.

Re:Not an Explanation

[stuktongue]

Thanks for your reply.

No, I'm not saying there haven't been more than 2000 satellites launched. Your original comment was: "After a few thousand birds at many millions a pop the industry is quite savvy about avoiding these." I find this comment funny because it implies two things: (1) that there is a lot of information sharing between everyone who builds those satellites, and (2) that there are no other issues that creep in to complicate the problem.

To illustrate point #1, I ask you how much information sharing you think occurred between Soviet and Chinese satellite development and their Western counterparts? For that matter, how much information sharing do you think occurs between European contractors and U.S. contractors? The answer is not as much as we'd like. In fact, information sharing between rival U.S. contractors is controlled to safeguard competitive advantages. As a result, most organizations are left to discover, explore, and remedy most of their problems in relative isolation. This greatly slows progress against the unknown. Further exacerbating the problem is the fact that many problems are design issues that only come to the surface on a design-by-design basis; this further reduces opportunities for discovery.

Regarding point #2, even if you become aware of a problem on a given satellite program, discovering the full reach across to all your other programs and implementing corrective action is non-trivial. Often, hardware is already on-orbit and can't be fixed. Many times, hardware is so far into the pipeline that the costs of reworking force a judgement call. Here, risk mitigation techniques are used to attempt to quantify the risk associated with various candidate courses of action and the final determination may be to fly as-is. Sometimes, this comes back to bite you in the ass.

So, in conclusion, your comment made me laugh because it reminds me of what many tin-benders who now control the space business seem to believe about what we do: In many folks's opinions, it seems they think that we can declare our technologies and processes mature and focus on "cranking out" hardware as if it was 727s. What we do is inherently specialized, even tweaky. Every design presents myriad challenges that test our understanding of the technology, the space and launch environments, and our manufacturing processes. Nothing can be taken for granted.

But back to the current subject.... Yes, tin whiskers is a relatively understood phenomenon today. But back in 1997, when the subject satellite was launched, and even moreso earlier, when it was designed and manufactured, this cannot be assumed to be the case.

Prelude to: When Aliens ATTACK !!

[Anonymous Coward]

Prelude to: When Aliens ATTACK !! Think Bush can whoop a martian ?

Re:How about JCSAT-1B? NKorean "war" to start

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice try, but you're ignoring the fact that JCSAT-1B is a private communication satellite that doesn't carry network TV video feeds. (It carries rented bandwidth used by companies to transfer large amounts of data to multiple sites simultaneously, and run video conferencing systems.) Not to mention that the networks in Japan have multiple redundant feeds that don't necessarily rely on satellite or other wireless methods.

Either way, shouldn't you be wearing a tin-foil hat and hiding in your basement right now? Everyone knows that the best way to get N. Korea to give up is to start a Korean barbecue party at the boarder, and have all the starving soldiers surrender in exchange for food! The only ones that won't surrender for food are those that are fed well already, and I'll be damned if they're willing to take a gun and head for the front lines!

Media Release or EULA?

[brindafella]

Did you read the fine-print section of the Intelsat media release? In many ways this looks like a EULA.

No wonder lawyers and spin-doctors make big money.

tin whiskers in action?

[DangerTenor]

Perhaps it is another case of the dreaded tin whisker phenomenon?

Lost in space

[mazarin5]

I'm pretty sure that's supposed to read:

Intesat reported a few days ago that its IS-804 Satellite is... LOST IN SPACE!

But maybe I'm just being a pedant

Blue Screen of Death

[micromuncher]

Actually, the power anomaly was due to Minocs chewing through the power cables.

Whiskers Strike Again

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like maybe the Tin Wisker problem may need a closer look.

Dr. Smith, I presume?

[Lodragandraoidh]

Intesat reported a few days ago that its IS-804 Satellite is lost in space.

Dr. Smith strikes again...

Your sig

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got the cart before the horse. If words contain truth and/or wisdom, what does it matter what (or whether) the name attached to them is? Some of the greatest writings in history are "anonymous", yet you deny their worth. A very peculiar attitude...

Re:Your sig

[AK Marc]

Some of the greatest writings in history are "anonymous", yet you deny their worth. A very peculiar attitude...

Aside from the Bible or other works where the actual author was purposefully obscured at the time for political reasons, almost nothing was written anonymously that is worth anything. Sure, there were a large number of people that didn't use their real name, but most people here don't use their real name either.

The only effect of posting anonymously here is to prevent past posts from being linked to present posts. This indicates a desire to troll. If you aren't a troll, you should post under name, even a made up one.

Re:Your sig

[Anonymous Coward]

Aside from the Bible or other works where the actual author was purposefully obscured at the time for political reasons, almost nothing was written anonymously that is worth anything

So, apart from the cases where it happened, it never happened? It's hard to debate that kind of "logic"

The only effect of posting anonymously here is to prevent past posts from being linked to present posts. This indicates a desire to troll. If you aren't a troll, you should post under name, even a made up one.

I disagree. Sure, that *does* happen a lot (after all, lots of uncivilised things get posted to slashdot), but it's not the *only* use of anon. The very fact that you replied to my post disproves your claim. Unless you are going to try to argue that both my original post and this one really are trolls? (in which case, why did you respond?).

I would say you discern a troll by the *content* of the post. Lots of AC posts are not trolls. Many non-AC posts *are* trolls. A sig that decries the value of a post merely on the basis of the name attached to it (or not), is in itself a troll of sorts.

Re:Your sig

[erc]

Hmmm, I guess you've never heard of Publius...

The problem is "anyone can edit"

[sczimme]

Wikipedia is not "someone's opinion"; it is supposed to be neutral, and factual.

Yes, it is supposed to be neutral and factual, but the people doing the editing are not necessarily specialists; they don't even need to be particularly knowledgeable. "Anyone can edit", right? That's what it says here. Without a decent vetting process, it is a bunch of people contributing to articles regardless of their qualification to do so.

I'm not saying Wikipedia is a bad idea. It's an interesting collaborative exercise that results in an encyclopedia of dubious veracity; I do not find such an information source useful. YMMV.

Re:The problem is "anyone can edit"

[Anonymous Coward]

What DO you find useful, then?

Loss of satellite cuts Antarctic communications

[kjfitz]

The "total loss" of a US$73 million ($106.19 million) satellite on Saturday morning left several Pacific Islands and Scott Base in Antarctica without telephone communications to the outside world.

Story here.

I see the problem!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey everyone, TFA says Intelsat is incorporated in Bermuda. Yup, that'd do it!

That has to be what is going on.

*ducks*

It's the commies

[sadomikeyism]

China is testing its anti-satellite weapons system in preparation for the invasion of Taiwan, which will occur after the total collapse of the US Dollar. NOTE: China's nuke missile sub is now operational, the ICBMs for the subs are finishing development, and will be capable of striking Washington DC from the Pacific Ocean.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/world/china/as at.htm

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/22 /141829.shtml

http://www.rmfdevelopment.com/political/ChineseASA T_capability.htm

Danger Will Robinson!

[Antonymous Flower]

Meanwhile, in a galaxy far, far away, a lost Intelsat satellite discovers the true Library at Alexandria (that guy sure got around) in which the histories of life are well-documented. As the roof caves in to the force of the collision, Earth's destiny as utterly clueless is sealed and delivered.

Mynochs...Chewie missed one.

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn wookie!

Terrorists

[shotfeel]

No conspiracy, it was terrorists.

The Department of Homeland Security is currently seeking information on two men with "strange accents" who recently purchased a laser pointer from a local Office Depot.

The two men were overheard discussing which laser pointers were the most powerful and could "shoot the farthest." The two also paid cash for the laser pointer, leaving no paper trail.

This follows disturbing recent events in which terrorists on the ground tried to down commercial aircraft by blinding the pilots with similar laser pointers.

found inside satellite debris

[ministerofsickeningr]

brand new relay kit, LUCAS ELECTRIC - ENGLAND. (only car people will get this joke)

Re:found inside satellite debris

[stuktongue]

"Lucas, Prince of Darkness."

I was told this joke when purchasing a 1976 Triumph Spitfire from a private party years ago. It's stuck ever since.

Thanks for the reminder. :-)

I guess this means we should duck?

[keithcstone]

Darn thing's gotta come down somewhere...

Oh god......

[TheMster]

A re-run? Again? I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!! Initiating self-destruct sequence..... Remember: No matter how good the numbers are, some satellite, somewhere, is sick of putting up with their shit.

Conspiracy theory

[flibuste]

Something happened to a satellite...

• The unwashed masses: oh! duh! can't watch telly! what the fuck!
• Slashdot: conspiration from the CIA! That is! As usual! Again! Are we going to do something about it?
• The knowledgeable: it must be Metallic Rays from outer space
• The uber-space-geek: hey! just received an alert from Nasa saying Sun has grown a new spot. Must be the cause - the damn thing must have shot out a lot of electro-magnetic waves toward us that shut down the thing as it usually happens.

The right answer: in Soviet Russia... Ah well...Never mind.

I just couldn't help myself

[rob_squared]

99 satellites flying in space, 99 satellites in space take one down, into the ground 98 satellites flying in space

its easy to hack a satellite

[ekool]

all you need is console access.

Hi

[furrywithwings]

Which one of you hacked the satellite? please bring it back, i need my bandwidth back, k thx.

Ah, it's all clear now ...

[GrassyNoel]

So that's why LiveJournal was down!

ami the only one who thinks that..

[Suchetha]

"metal whiskers" would be a great name for a rock band?

come back, dave barry. we miss you already

Suchetha

Lost?

[RM6f9]

As in, not observable by plotting per previously known ephemerae and searching with telescope?
It's one thing to lose signal or lose power, but is the darn thing still in its orbit? Has anyone looked? How much mass did it have? (Translation, how hard would how much smaller a mass have to hit it to take it so far out of its orbit as to be genuinely mis-placed?)
Space pollution may prove to be one of our biggest obstacles to safe space travel.

Similar experience - possible solution

[saskboy]

I know just how the satellite owners feel, and I have a solution. When my VNC wouldn't respond, I asked my landlord to go over and reboot my computer. Presto, I was back in.

Obviously, they just need to have one of their other satellites fly over and reboot the dead one.

Yes, I'm kidding.