Slashdot Mirror
When Should You Quit Your Job?
Moe Taxes asks: "I want to hear from Slashdot readers who have quit jobs or turned down offered jobs because it was not what they wanted to do. Why did you do it? Was it ethics, ambition, pride, or disgust? And how did it turn out? Did you get to do what you wanted to do, are you still looking, or did you come back begging for another chance? I have always written software for windows, but never with Microsoft tools. I don't feel like I have enough control over the product when I use Microsoft programming environments. My company was bought recently, and is in the process of becoming a C# VisualStudio shop. I said thanks, but no thanks and left. Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay?"
Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay
Yes.
Don't ever quite (read it twice) unless you have something else in line.
About the time you start asking Slashdot if it is time to quit:-)
Not if you can find another job.
who can know. It's like asking-- "I got Rocky Road at Baskin Robins with my Yahoo coupon, did I get the wrong flavor?"
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Yes. I mean, ok, so it's your call. But does it really matter what OS/environment you work with? I always thought real programmers could care less... It's not like you're doing it for fun--you ARE getting paid, after all. Besides, you should have waited till you found a new job before you quit your old one.
Simple. When I get 100% vesting in the 401(k). Meanwhile, I just suck up the BS and deal.
It was a job as a network/systems admin at a manufacturing and development plant. After doing some side work for them, and many long discussions with the owner, I realized the guy was full of himself and wanted somebody who was just as full of it as he was. I'm not that guy, so I bowed out. It turned out to be the best career decision I've made!
Nobodies Prefect
Tidbits for Techs Technology Blog
Are you married? Does your spouse work? How much money do you have saved up? What was your income? Where do you live? How old are you? How much experience do you have? etc, etc.
Unless you have no use for money.
We must be alert to the danger that public policy could become captive to a scientific-technological elite. - Eisenhower
Life is very short, if you don't believe in god then this is truley the only go at things you'll have. Every day should be fun and everything you do you should enjoy, you should be interested in, it should intrigue you. Because of this you shouldn't spend time doing something you dislike, that bores you, etc. A smart person can find a good job, one that they like, one that they love, if they look hard enough.
A great indication of when you should quit your job is when you wake up every morning and dread going into work. Its okay to wish you were doing something else, but if you wake up and always hate the idea of going into the office then it is probably a good time to find a new line of work.
Be better in bed. Wikiafterdark!
Just before your boss catches you reading "When Should You Quit Your Job" on slashdot, when you're supposed to be working.
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
I think "steady work" in this case is a bit of a misnomer. If you hate your job, don't like the work, or desperately want to leave, then you are not going to be productive, you will have a lot of stress, you will probably be irritable most of the time, and in general you will not fit very well with the position. I don't think I would characterize that as a "steady" employment situation. It would likely be very tumultuous.
Dear Mr. Johnson,
Our IT department has been monitoring your web activity these past few months, and we're sorry to say your continued employment is no longer necessary.
Mr. Szleswinsczky
Management
OCO is Loco
Unless you were being forced to do something illegal it doesn't make a lot sense to quit a job before having another one lined up. It sucks to be forced into an unfun job situation but there is a reason why work is called work. Sometimes you have to do things that suck. Good luck on finding another job.
In this case, you probably made a mistake. Microsoft tools are excellent for Windows development. C# is easier to use than C++. If a job makes you unhappy, you shuld probably look for a new one but I don't see that there's any reason to believe that using the latest Microsoft tools for windows development will make you unhappy. Sorry.
No thanks...
/me is 21 years old.
Punchcard and a hole puncher were all I needed.
Trendy keyboards... damn hippies.
Like to see how many kiddies out there can code a if/then/else in under 5 minutes.
If you've left, and don't find other work that you enjoy doing soon, you're at risk of ending up stuck doing stuff that you feel is a waste of your skills - something like flipping burgers, answering phones, whatever. You also have an issue getting back into your field later - saying that you quit because you didn't like the tools your employer was using is a potential red flag to a future employer, and may make it impossible to return to a field you enjoy.
Good luck finding a new job!
I appear to have a blog. Odd.
Kind of an unusual thing, but I quit a job working at a small computer consulting firm a while after the police showed up at work and arrested my boss for child pornography.
... he kept making remarks about it not being a "real crime" especially since he hadn't been locked up for it.
He was convicted, but was sentenced to probation with monitoring
The job market being pretty good for programmer-types at the time, so I left. The fact that the business was hugely in debt certainly didn't encourage me to stick around, either.
"Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
I got a burr up my rear when my company changed hands. I'm an arogant bit of a programmer, and thus left my well paying job.
Now I'm regretting it, and want this forum to bless my rather hasty and immature decision to leave my employee.
Well, I'm not really regretting it, but Mom says it was a fool thing to do, and I'll have to move out of the basement if I dont find work soon.
Thank you.
----- LoboSoft specializes in Digital Language Lab
The proper way would have been to do a job search before you quit your job. If you're already employed but want to move on, secure yourself first by having a new job lined up before turning in your notice.
Yeah, I'm sure it really sucks the direction your current job is going but unless your skills are amazingly solid or your name is Linus Torvalds, chances are you're about to have a lot of free time on your hands with no solid income for a while.
Right now I am the lone PHP programmer where I work, and I have total control over what operating systems and applications I want ot use on my workstation and servers. However, I recently was offered a job about 3 hours away, where I would have to code in C#, and use Visual Studio, but the pay is 2x what I make now, so I'm going to try at least.
:)
I think its difficult enough for programmers in the US to even get jobs right now, so for me to have the option of doubling my pay in exchange for swallowing my pride, it seems like a smart move. Plus I can always go home and cleanse myself with Linux after work
If you had another job lined up, no. If you didn't but have some money in savings, no dependants, probably not. If you have kids and no money, then it probably was a little too impulsive. Of course, if other working adults within your household are both able and willing to take up the slack, then it's probably not so bad.
I left my company recently, but only resigned after accepting another position.
I always knew that it was a good idea to quit working when I started to sabatoge the company I was working for. Honestly, it would always be a reliable sign. I started working as a telemarketer for MBNA for a while I enjoyed annoying people it was kinda fun to see how bad I could get them to yell at me. Then it became a little less fun and i started to fool around. Eventually I got to the point where I would try and waste as much time as possible, I would sneak away to the bathroom when no one was looking and I would turn off every single toliet and urnal (there is a little valve you can twist with a flat headed screw driver). I decided it was time to quit.
I started with Walmart and my first day I started trying to sabatoge them. i decided I should probalby quit the next day. I use my destructive habbits as an indication of when I should probably look for a new place to work.
Be better in bed. Wikiafterdark!
Yes, especially if it was just because you hate M$. If you had stayed there long enough to learn C# and then decided it wasn't in your best long term interest that might have been something different. As it is you just lost a perfect opportunity to learn something new and expand your skill set.
True even if (especially if) you are self-employed.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
The reason you quit your job is rediculous.
It's asinine to quit your job without another in line just because you wanted to be a l33t pr0gr4mm3r and not write with Microsoft tools. Staying on only would have given you experience with a language you probably don't have much practical experience with, furthering your resume and expanding your knowledge.
You could easily have stayed on and stuck it out while looking for something else. Attitudes like yours make me want to quit this profession.
I myself am leaving a Microsoft vendor and heading to FOSS as a result of our compnaies inflexible rules. Here is an example:
- Everyone at the company wears the exact same uniform (supplied by the company)
- I'm not allowed to decorate my office, bring in furniture other than their supplied furniture and can only have one picture in my office.
- I'm not allowed to have facial hair, wierd haircuts (dreads count as wierd), tattoos, peircings, etc.
- I am micromanaged to death
This is hell but now that the market has rebounded, I'm finding I can mae easily 1.5 times as much as I make here and I don't have to deal with this bullshit anymore.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
In deciding to leave a job or not, you are looking at the wrong data. IMHO, the important thing in a job is not the OS or programming tools. The main factor is do you like working with your co-workers. If you like your fellow workers, then you are a fool to leave over the programming tools.
At the end of the day code is code no matter where you wrote it. What gets us interested in getting up and going to work each day is do we like the working environment, not the coding environment.
(posted it somewhere else but the formatting was awful)
Two and a half years ago I was switching jobs and an Ask Slashdot on the topic gave me a few hints on how to do it well and it's been great since then. Now I have a new offer and am in the middle of a very hard decision:
I'm a programmer. I think I'll be a programmer all my life. When I do tasks in the real world I envision solutions almost as code. I was born to write code, and have done so for over 10 years now. But being a university drop-out my future has always worried me: I know people don't hire older programmers, and being 27 this is something that's hainting me.
So my current employer made me an offer to manage a new office in a town where it would be fairly easy for me to continue my university studies where I left them; but, as fate has it, I was given another offer to stay in the city I'm in with a higher pay (more than double of what I make now, almost three times) and a really high rank (Executive Manager of a really big company). When we got to the point of my lack of university degree, they downplayed it and said they could help me continue my studies, but as I see it is not a priority. Now, in the middle of this dilemma is the whole relocation problem.
My question would be this: How would you play it? I'd love to make a lot of money, but if I take the Executive Manager position I'll most probably never write code again, and may still not have a diploma; but if I take the lower, manager position with my current employer I'll be really comfortable in an environment that I like, but may never have a chance to climb up that higher in the positions ladder.
I tend to think that once I've gotten to the higher positions the university diploma will not matter much, but I'm not certain on how true this really is.
You're an idiot.
You do realize that you're going to be remembered as "that guy who quit because he didn't want to use Visual Studio"?
They're going to laugh every time someone tells that story. Of course, they'll be laughing on company time, and getting payed for it.
Everybody's been saying the same goddamned thing.
"Yes you were foolish for quitting your job."
What do you want from these people? Reassurance that you've done the right thing? They don't know you. They don't know what you're capable of, and they dont know what you want to do. Only YOU know that. Would you seriously read 100 replies and go "Shit... I KNEW I shouldn't have done that." ?
Listen man. You live ONCE. You've made your choice now move on. Go try and find something that makes you happy, and preferably pays you rather well. You know what you're capable - or not capable - of, so don't sell yourself short by asking for Career advice on Slashdot. ;)
I was working for a nice company, great benefits, pay was ok (not great, but good). I was doing VB work of all things. As easy going and laid back as it was it was not challenging at all and I was bored. Coming in to work, working half a day and then surfing the rest of the day can get boring day in and day out.
:-) And you shouldn't leave over petty things like development tools....only if you are truly dissatisfed with your job.
So I started to interview (actually only took one interview). I found a medical device company that was hiring...even though the position was for Windows Development I was assured that movement into the embedded side was possible.
So I took the job and quit my other job. It took 3 and a 1/2 years before they finally moved me into the embedded team but it was well worth the wait. Now I actually make more than I would if I had stayed at the other company (although I didn't leave because of pay) and I'm really enjoying the work.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is basically what everyone else is saying in one sentence...don't quit until you have something else lined up
I think there is nothing wrong with having convictions, but it's always best to keep an open mind regarding new technologies. Unless you are a 20+ years C developper, you should at least, tried to evolve with the company technological changes.
.Net for a couple of weeks or months. If it still made you life miserable, quitting would have been the right decision for you. Now, you look as if new technological challenges scare the hell out of you.
That choice you made, you should have done it after trying C#
No! dont do that. spend every single weekday sitting in an environment you loathe doing something you hate with people that you dont like. do it for the economy.
wont somebody please think of the economy!?!
air and light and time and space
One, because I wasn't going to get paid, ever. Actually, I think I was fired from that one, for complaining about not being paid. I was young and dumb, and at the time I really needed leisure time more than I needed money anyway.
Two, because I was asked by a manager to report hours worked on time sheets that were completely inaccurate. Turns out this is a crime. A Federal Crime. A Federal pound-me-in-the-ass-in-prison crime. The people who get upset about it are at the Social Security office, and they did not like what I was telling them. The company was Tandy corporation, the city was Dallas Texas, the year was 1986, and I'd put down the names of the people involved if I could remember them. Criminals, using me as a vehicle to commit tax fraud for Tandy's benefit. Some nerve.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I'd say your reason for quitting is a bad one, unless you have another job lined up. If your only complaint is that the Microsoft tools don't give you enough control, well that's a pretyt minor one. I mean it's work, not play, who cares if you don't get your ideal dev environment? You also ought to know that you can ignore their IDEs and just use their compilers, in which case there's really no way that they limit you.
Now it's different if you've got another job you could walk in to that you'd like more. Even if it pays less, if you enjoy the work more that's often worth it. Never let money get in the way of quality of life. Happiness isn't how much you have in the bank. I'd take a $40,000/yr job that I lvoe any day over a $80,000/yr one I hate.
However it sounds to me like a minor complaint, and also your tone would infer you have nothing lined up. In that case, quitting is a bad idea. You can be looking for other jobs, but just running away with nothing plannedbecause you don't like the VS IDEs is silly.
Also, this sounds like a chance to push your boundries and grow. A whole lot of people use VisualStudio, including some very well respected programmers. So, maybe there is something to it. Look at this as an oppurtunity to learn a new method of development. See how the whole RAD model works and see what oyu think. Maybe you discover it blows and you don't want to do it, maybe you discover it's a valuable new tool in additon to how you already know how to code. Who knows?
Now if you've already quit, well then I dunno what to tell you excpet find another job as soon as you can and hope you like it. I wouldn't go begging back to them, they aren't all that likely to hire you.
In the future don't leave your job unless you have a very good reason. These could be (but are not limited to):
1) A significantly better monetary offer.
2) A job that you feel you will enjoy more.
3) A severe ethicial conflict.
4) A work environment that streeses you to the point you'd rather work minimum wage if it came to that.
5) You win the lottery.
However do not quit for silly reasons like "My boss makes us go to too many staff meetings" or "I don't like the dev tools we use" and so on. IF you find the work at least tolerable and you've got nothing better lined up, keep the job.
I quit my full-time position in September for many reasons I won't go into...and one reason I will: I've always wanted to work for myself.
Back in August, a former employer approached me about some contract work. We negotiated a minimum six month contract. I would be out of here end of March. We just extended the work to cover additional projects and it is now open-ended. I am implementing enterprise software/systems for them in a more economical way than they could get from purchased packages that would then need customized anyway.
After quitting, my previous employer has become my second customer. I still do contract work for them on an hourly basis. I have the advantage of now being paid for exactly the hours I work (no 60-80 hour work weeks being paid for 40), having complete autonomy, only having one "boss" to answer to there, and having the right to refuse work if it does not appeal to me.
Additionally, another former employer contacted me in December and since January, they've become my third customer. I jut recently told each of these companies that I would need to raise my rates because I'm simply not charging them enough to cover my burn rate (w/ taxes, insurance, etc. figured in). Not only did they understand, they didn't blink, and they told me they were very happy with the work I've done and can't wait to implement future projects.
No guts, no glory. YMMV.
A little background first: I'm (kind of) a sysadmin, with a university degree, born and living in Guatemala. How many jobs have I left? Five. That's right, five. And, even those times I've walked out on a job without having another one to latch on to, I've managed to land on my feet, and that's in an economy of a latin-american city of 3 million people.
My philosophy has always been that you only have one life to live, and you should live it the best way you can. And in my opinion, having money does not equal a good life. That's why I've been able to walk out on jobs where my dignity has been trampled, and wait out a few weeks (months, even!) until I can land another one. And I'll tell you one thing: those few weeks when I scrape by with my savings, are usually some of the best memories I end up with.
Of course, I'm not married, so I can still afford the luxury of scraping by on a handful of quetzales (plus, living in a not-too-expensive city helps). But, in my opinion, you don't need cash to have a satisfying life.
I used to work at Microsoft (go ahead and laugh) and it was a stable and secure job aside from the fact my department was being globalized and sent to India (I could have probably found another job at Microsoft if it had come down to it).
I quit due to a number of reasons. First, it became clear to me that family obligations (unusually intensive for the time) were not going to be met if I continued to work there. But additionally (why I have not reapplied) I realized that I would be continuously underemployed because I didn't play the political games the way others expected me to.
So when I returned to the US after helping my wife get her visa, I went into business for myself.
My experience:
Don't kid yourself-- it is very (!) difficult to quit to start your own business unless you have a lot of external support (I was lucky in that regard, and it is still hard).
That being said, there is no price you can pay for the feeling of satisfaction you get from having a fulfilling job or business.
So it is your choice.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Back in about 2000 I decided I'd leave my steady, fair job and look for a doctom here in the valley. Figured what the hell - ya only live once. I ended up NOT at a dotcom, but at SUN. It was a "hot job coding Java" for small systems.
I didn't much believe in the product.
I didn't much believe in the manager.
I didn't much believe in the tech lead.
I didn't much believe in the product design.
I figured "what the hell, maybe I can make a difference!"
After 9 months of pure agony I left. I have tried to chalk it up as a learning experience, but it was a very very expensive lesson in terms of time and sanity. Not that I'm bitter, but the only thing that I can really smile about is the hope that my manager and his head lackey held onto all their stock until it was well underwater.
Don't stick with your crappy job.
I did find a dotcom, and I did make a difference, and I did have fun for a couple of years.
I graduated from college with a history degree at the ass-end of the 90s, and quickly learned that history jobs are few and far between. I poked around for a few months until I realized that rent had to be paid every month, not just once, and took a job in customer service. Eight hours a day on a headset, taking nonstop calls from people too stupid to figure out how to place an order online.
I wasn't too worried about zombies at the time; who would be? The dot-com bubble was still blowing, and everyone liked the feeling.
Six months into it, I harbored a bitter hatred for my coworkers, my managers, and the executives of the company. I was convinced I could do anyone's job better than they could. I was right, too, because they were brain-dead morons and I, as a recent college graduate, knew everything there was to know. My degree said so, after all.
I lucked into a position in software quality assurance, which was at the ass-end of that company's development process. Still no zombies, except for a manager who slept at his desk for a few hours every morning, but I was able to get around that. Over the years, the department grew, I was promoted once or twice, and things were working out pretty well. There was some management turnover, which is to be expected, but the real killer was when management turnover had reached the point where my department was sharing a manager with a development team in another city.
David (note: not his real name) would work Tues-Thurs with my team, and then Friday-Monday in a city six hours away. This half-assed management was the killer for me, even though he was using his whole ass, as far as I could tell. In order to demonstrate to his managers that he was a dutiful middle management worker bee, he held daily status meetings when he was in the office, and daily status conference calls when he was out. Dilbert jokes and Office Space references abounded.
I think it was at this point when I saw the first zombie.
Gabe (note: not his real name) was a coworker in the department who moved over to the infrastructure team. He was the one who pointed out the zombie. My first thought was it was just another dev who worked all night and slept in his clothes, but Gabe carefully pointed out the severed arm that the zombie carried and the shotgun blast in his chest. It didn't bother me, though, so I shrugged it off. Our stock price was still high, and the employee stock purchase plan was a gold mine.
There were a few more zombies in the days after that. One of the sales guys tried to take a bite out of me, and I was really tempted to punch him, but I knew that it probably would result in my termination, and I still wanted my health bennies. I managed to duck away and tip a chair over, which trapped him in the cubicle. I stayed away from Sales for a while after that.
I also stopped going to HR to drop off paperwork such as vacation requests and 401k participation forms. One of the HR drones was a zombie and kept lunging at me, so I'd get around that just by sliding the form under the door. Yeah, occasionally I'd get a nastygram saying that the other HR workers had to get the paper away from the zombie, but that wasn't my problem.
But like I said, it was the half-assed management. I was put on a team of employees dedicated to a specific client to keep them from getting even more pissed at us. Me, a few devs, a project manager or two, and some outsourced testers in India who reported to me. This was pretty cool, up until the PMs in the group turned into zombies and wouldn't tell us what the hell the client wanted. I complained to my manager, but he was in Chicago at the time, and all he would say was stuff like, "Help me," and "Please help me," and "Oh god, they're eating me."
I really needed more support from my manager then. The ideal manager runs interference for you and lets you do your job, provides an environment where you can develop your skills, and rewards good performance. David (note: still not his real name) spent alm
I worked for a UK telco (hence the posting as AC!) and I quit over an issue of principle when they tried to apply "bell curve assessment" to my team of 5 people(I was the team leader). Obviously, this is far too small a statistical sample to apply statistical assessment methodologies to, and the manager concerned didn't "get it". Since I didn't want to be forced to assess one of my team as 'underperforming' and one as dreadful, when in fact they all were performing extrememly well I felt that I had to resign over this issue. Discussion failed as it was 'corporate policy'. Whilst I don't have anything against bell curve assessment per say, it should only be used against a meaningful sample of peers in the company (if at all). Other teams had people who were widely regarded as seriously inferior to those in my team, but we weren't allowed to perform our assessment using them as peers since they were in a different team.
Previously they had cost me a team member who was highly productive, bright, keen and whom I had invested in year in training - the reason - a much deserved 2k pay raise which they wouldn't give him.
18 months later, I'm on almost double the salary, and almost my entire team has since quit the company, along with several other people who apparently cited her as the reason.
Sometimes you just have to walk.
AC
So, let me get this straight. You are 27 years old. And, you just received an offer at 3-times your current salary to become a PHB.
How would you play it? I'd love to make a lot of money, but if I take the Executive Manager position I'll most probably never write code againYou are crazy if you even consider staying with your old company. You are crazy if you want to remain a programmer. Programming sucks. In fact, you are crazy for asking such a question on /.
Take the Executive position. Take the money. You can always return to programming later, if you decide you hate the responsibility. Earn the money while you can.
You should quit when you have your next job lined up.
...." - those words WILL come back to haunt you (like, the *next* time you go to look for a new job, and prospective employers are calling this guy!) Make sure you give them your two weeks (they may offer to let you go immediately or ask that you continue to work - be ready either way).
That is, when you have the offer of employment from your new employer, and a starting date set.
I had a friend who did the "take this job and shove it" trick with what was truely a bad situation. However, it was several months before he had another job lined up, and he very nearly had to file for bankrupcy. It *did* screw his credit up for a long time, due to the amount of debt he racked up during that time.
All jobs suck - but some more than others.
So you should ask yourself, "Realistically, does this job suck worse than any new job I might get?"
Assuming the answer is "HELL YES!", then start looking for a new job - BUT DON'T LET YOUR CURRENT EMPLOYER KNOW. Make sure you tell any headhunters you work with that you don't want your current employer contacted.
Look long and well - do everything you can do to insure that your new job will suck less than your current job.
Then, when they offer you a position, set your start date no earlier than two and a half weeks into the future, get the formal (and legally binding) letter of offer and your letter of acceptance.
THEN, and ONLY then, do you go to your current boss and tender your resignation. And no matter how strong the temptation, no matter what you feel your justification is, no matter how badly you'd like to tell them off, resign in a calm, professional manner. This world is too damn small to say "First of all, you ain't no good, never been no good, you smell like old wet cheese, you pay shit
Also, when changing jobs, you are shaking your world up - so do your best to save up some emergency money before hand, and even if your new job pays 4x what you were making - act as though you were making your old salary and save the difference - at least for a year. Remember, last in, first out.
You may want to quit today - you may go home every night grinding your teeth, but USE that anger to drive your job search - remember, while your current job may suck, imagine how much MORE it will suck if you have to go crawling back in order to keep a roof over your head!
www.eFax.com are spammers
I disagree. It is always easier to get a job if you are working. Employers just feel better about hiring you if you are working. If they think you will quit without having a backup job, then they think it will be easier for you to quit them. Also there is a sense of accomplishment in "stealing" a good employee from another company.
That said, I want to respond to the original question. I have turned down a lot of jobs in my life. I have always done it for the same reason, because I liked what I was doing. I have said for years, "If I did not like what I do, I would do something else."
I just recently changed jobs. I did it for job satisfaction. I switched to a job where I feel I am better respected. I get paid more. There are perks like travel and training that I did not have at the old job. I have been telling everyone, "This is the job I have worked towards for the last ten years."
Insert Generic Sig Here:
You are never a fool if you stand up for something you belive in .
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
Unless you have something lined up, don't just quit unless some legal boundry (or moral) has been crossed. The current (modern?) economy is not setup to easily just move around in general. In my own experience, I was working for a great small company the past almost three years. I got all the benefits, good pay, awesome vacation (which allowed me to see much of the world), etc. However, I felt in the end I was starting to stagnate and didn't have anywhere to move up. So this became the impetus to look elsewhere. The reasoning being the obvious, more money, and the less obvious, networking, relearning old skills, learning new skills, learning about different companies/industries, etc. I been at my new job for two weeks now and while I was very timid initially for fear I made a big mistake, turns out each day is better then the previous and I am really liking it here. So always keep your eyes open, but don't just jump ship without some careful consideration and planning.
Life is too short to work at a job that you hate.
Look at people who you consider successful. How many of them chose to remain at a boring job for a long time?
Now, look at your current workplace. Can you see yourself being there in 3-5 years?
What do you want to do when you are 40? What are your long term goals? Will your current job help you to reach your goals?
However, staying in your current job will buy you time, if you can put up with the boredom for a short time. If you stay employyed, you can be more relaxed in your job search, and not be forced to take a new job that you will hate. Obviously, it will be harder to find time to look for a job if you stay employeed, but you can try to make time.
Plus, many potential employeers will take you more seriously when you already have a job.
If you ARE stuck at a job, then just make sure you have a good life outside of work. If you hate your job, and you hate your non-work life; it is time to reevaluate your situation.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Not saying that it's "bad advice" - but perhaps it's just over-simplistic?
I agree that life is too short, and there's ultimately no real point to spending most of it doing work you loathe.
But there's a flip-side to this. Job searches and the uncertainty of when you'll be able to get the bills paid can be more stressful than a job you don't particularly like.
Furthermore, it's quite possible to discover something you truly enjoy doing on your own terms and conditions, which doesn't ever seem to really translate into a "job you enjoy" when working for someone else. For example, I've always had an interest and enjoyment of music - and used to be told I had a "pleasant reading voice" and the like. Therefore, I had an idea that I'd enjoy becoming a radio DJ. Know what? After going to college and taking a few courses towards this goal - I realized there was no way I'd ever like it! The problem? Practically nobody in the commercial radio business is willing to turn over control to a DJ. The DJ is basically a "robot", playing the music pre-designated in set lists, and required to only speak for X number of seconds or minutes each hour, at pre-designated time slots in the program. That's not at all what I envisioned would make being a DJ fun!
All of that being said, I think there's nothing at all to be ashamed of to say "Look, I'm not comfortable writing your software using *this* set of tools (or for *this* platform)." Only you can really make that judgement call. To me, it's rather like being a carpenter, and suddenly being told "We're taking away your entire toolbox, because our business partnered up with Black & Decker. You can only use Black & Decker saws, drills, hand tools, etc. from here on out. Here's your new set of tools, and if you need ones they don't make - you just have to do without! Enjoy!" Some people might get by fine under those conditions, but it surely wouldn't do for every carpenter out there.
I half agree with you. It may be true that money
:)
cannot buy hapiness... but lack of money can sure
bring a lot of misery. I'll still pick a lower
paying job that I love over a sucky job that pays
more, but only if the job I love still brings in
enough to pay the bills.
Of course as an independent consultant I sometimes
bend my own rule. I'll take a short term sucky
job for a high enough rate if it means I can take a
really long vacation before accepting the next
consulting gig. For me, money is not about buying
more toys... it is about affording the free time
to play with the toys.
Later,
Thad
The Bolachek Journals
I just landed a great job at a C# VisualStudio shop. :D
Education is very important, you can't unload trucks when your 55 for a living anymore. That being said, turning down a promotion can be a serious CLM. You need to decide two things,
...school. That is coming from a guy who is only 32 but spent 10 years flying jets in the Airforce, has managed a small business, used to fix cars for a living and now manage an IT team that supports a large user base and goegraphical area. I dont' mean to sound harsh but your "only coding" skills just wouldn't cut it anywhere else but where you are...
1. Are you going to stay in the IT industry for your entire working life? (don't downplay this thought, and don't make swift decisions, on average people change careers three times threwout their professional working life).
2. What will be more important in the future? not now or even a year from now, think 5 years out. Will you be better off with an education? or just with a better job?
I can't answer any of these issue for you, BUT I have a B.Sc (in Canada we have diferent scripts, I think in the US you would call it a BS..haha that cracks me up...sorry...) and I think it was the best thing I have done. I majored in EP (Engineering physics) so I can go anywhere and do just about anything if this IT gig of mine gets old. You don't have an option like that (please do not take offense to that). Your 27 and have limited experience...I think personally, the best bet for you is
food for thought.
when in doubt press enter and we'll figure it out later..
It comes down to the same reason that gives so much of Slashdot so much trouble getting laid: even prostitutes have standards. =)
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
I did that once. Mistake. Don't do the grand gestures until you have another job to go to. Of course if you don't like eating......
Last year, after quite a few months of crabbing about my job I decided the company was not going in a direction I wanted to participate in. This involved a change in ownership from the founder to the VP Sales and the company culture changed from having a touchy-feely opendoor management style to having an authoritarian absentee CEO who hired management consultants and the whole Office Space rigamarole. I had saved up a chunk of money and I live in a rent-controlled apartment, so I quit. I had always thought that if a company I worked for was either sold or started hiring management consultants that I would quit immediately, but I liked my coworkers and there still remained some vestiges of the old way, so I waited a few months. I've taken the time off (since last May) to relax, do some traveling, and basically not think about having a job for awhile. I'm just now starting to get bored and am in the job market, but I feel this was just fine even though my family and some of my friends are of the "jobs are like women: don't quit one before you have another" mindset. You know your situation best and can plan for the future, though. If you're not hurting, I recommend taking at least a few weeks to figure out what was wrong with what you left so you can look for jobs that are more than "anything besides this" desperation.
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
I accepted a job once because the money was unbelievable. The work environment sucked, I never stopped looking for a new job, and I got fired after about 3 months. The woman (red flag #1) running the joint liked to just hire people and see if they fit her needs, and then fire them a few months later. I sensed this somewhat when I met with her for the interview, but I ignored my gut instinct (Red Flag #2). They were looking for someone who knew the Sybase API, and used csh, but they advertised "C/Unix" programmer, and didn't ask about csh or Sybase in the interview. She made an offer immediately (red flag #3) after the interview and I negotiated that offer upwards about 5k to my original asking amount.
I should have turned it down, and didn't. Listen to your instincts, and if something seems wrong that you just can't pinpoint, don't take the offer.
Okay, so #1 is kind of a joke, but I could tell she was a bitchy type and that should have stopped me. Don't work for assholes unless you're unemployed and need money.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
and been re-hired 3 times, though each was a unique circumstance. But NEVER ask to go back...it almost never works out and you mostly never get to find out honest answers about why they don't want you back.
The happiest outcomes seem to stem from leaving a large, stale, hide-bound bureaucratic corporation [defense contractor in my case] for a raw startup with maybe 1st round funding...the new situation should be fluid and even if it is risky, it can be absolutely engaging and require all the energy and smarts you possess. Unless you are a weak performer, you will usually not wait too long between jobs and in the end, the jobs you will be fondest off will be the ones that needed you the most and let you be the best programmer you were capable of being. This is, of course, MHO: your personality and comfort level in uncertain circumstances is a huge part of the decision.
I should temper this idealism a bit. A startup either grows up and each programmer's role shrinks, or it fails and you go looking again. That optimum state of programmerly grace is fleeting yet you don't want to be a start-up junky. A good rule of thumb [I've heard it from others who have worked in the same ways at the same companies as I] is about 3 years at a start up. You are either rich by then or have settled into some role with depleted novelty and challenges...or you are suddenly cleaning the pizza boxes and coke cans out of your cube and using the pink slip to book mark where you left off in your latest programming manual. It is no shame and in some quarters a sign of your value that you went down with the ship. YMMV but JUMP anyway 'cause life is short.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
I worked in a store, and after I had assisted a customer in chooing a product, I had an internal dialouge with myself...I said "self, you just lied to outright to that customer, to get that product sold, to bring up your totals, are you comfortable with that" myself said "NO, I'm not" I replied "Ok, then we can't work here anymore, because the culture here is that you will have to keep doing that..."
The same day I put in an application to be the asst manager of another store and had an interview 2 days later, and a week alter I no longer worked for the company I had to lie for...
Bonus credits if you can name the store I had to leave...
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
I was about to say the same thing. Although he already quit.
:-) (esp since if they feel you are going because you have too, they don't pressure you to do all those annoying things like document where you have kept backups for the last 54 months. :-) :-) (and other eratta like server passwords, cvs setups, which disk is which, what is that new raid you installed? where is the key to the server room? how do I turn on the coffee machine or refill it when empty?)
I know people who stayed at a job when it went from M$ to Java, never learnt java, and spent 12 months sitting motionless in front of thier monitors, or steadily and noisily consuming painstakingly prepared (not ordered in like the rest of us actually doing work) toasts and other foods, while idly distracting us with chat.
You start off thinking ok lucky them getting paid to learn to program a new language... then you think oh poor guys, might loose thier job, then you hate htem for being leeches... until the lighter of justice burns them off the golden skin on the company.
You can then play 'stationary rush' where you steal all thier hoarded stationary, that stapler they always ask you to put back, (wtf?) and they usually have that extra side desk thing, even though they need it less.
My advice: work somewhere while it is fun to work, when it becomes less fun, start looking at what YOU WANT TO DO. see what it will take to get there.
When to leave? I handed in my notice 2 days after I signed for almost double my (already above market average) salary. I told them I was unhappy, and I was going to look for another job, they gradually offered me a 50% (50%!) rise, all the time thinking I had no other job... but I said no money could keep me there... dropped some names as to why... then left.
Ultimate damage
Also if the only hot piece of ass is leaving, you might as well leave too. If you are male or female, single or not... if you don't work with a hot piece of unpretentious ass, life is just dull.
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
I was a victin of the following economic crash but not of the airframes that would have slammed into my floor (the 83rd) just about where my cubicle was.
Was I foolish to quit? You tell me.
I left because they didn't know what a state machine was (which had a SEVERE impact on the system's design,) my immediate boss expected to follow her around and commit everything to memory because she never wrote anything down, and I was expected to do miracles, like being prescient.
Was I foolish to quit? No way. I couldn't take working there one more day.
It may have cost me (I've recouped it all since,) but it was worth it.
I'm still here. 2 of my co-workers weren't so lucky.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
This is a stupid Ask Slashdot.
Obviously your moral standards are at issue here, and everyone has their own moral standards.
Would you be a prostitute? A pimp? Con man? Work at Microsoft? Work for Wal Mart? Be a lawyer? Defense attorney? Personal injury? Prosecution? Cop? Surgeon? Social worker?
Who you work for, what work you have to do, who you have to work with... these are all fundamental questions that every person in the freaking world has to ask themselves every time they look for work, and every day they go to work. The fact that you are a programmer has absolutely zero fucking relevance, except with regards to the current IT industry job market. And you know what? Special delivery from Obvious Express: IT SUCKS. Of course, with motivation, luck, (perhaps a bit of nepotism) and an excellent resume you can get a job in any big city. DUH!
Welcome to Ethics 101 and Job Finding 101, where your host is Slashdot and we can discuss sophomoric morality questions and how the current job market in IT sucks!
Later today: Does God exist? What OS would He use?
If you're asking yourself this, and have to come on here to get an answer, then my answer to you is Yes.
But honestly, only you can answer this.
- Did you have another job lined up before leaving?
- Are you living in a location where there are plenty of jobs where you'll be happy, and you are able to get?
- Are you able to get by comfortably until you find a new job, and if not, was it worth leaving before finding a new job?
- If you company was bought out, would you be switching to Visual Studio right away, or would you have been able to continue doing what you were doing before (until you found a new job)?
Sometimes, we have to do things that we don't like (for example, I'm writing help files, but it's paying the bills, and I'm getting by quite easily, but until I can find a job that pays as good or more than this, and where my experience would better be served, I'll continue to do the jobs that no one else wants)
Gee, you think that one of the three things you mentioned in the above paragraph *might* just be the reason you've looked for a job for so long?
Anthony Papillion
Advanced Data Concepts, Inc.
"Quality Custom Software and IT Services"
I have recently quit my job.
It was a lucrative job that involved a high level of certification with a vendor. I got to go to different job sites every other week or so, learn the latest technologies, and get free training. In the beginning it seemed like the culmination of several years or training.
The entire time I had the job, I didn't feel like I belonged there. I found journals of mine from two years ago, and I'd said then that I didn't know if I would be there in six months. I could do the technical part ok. I just didn't have the personality to do the job. I didn't like BS'ing the customer into purchasing a solution when I couldn't prove that the solution would work because I had never done that before. When a recent project involved over $175,000 in labor and materials, and the number of things of unknowns that would have ruined the project ran over a page long, I knew I didn't have it in me to keep doing this.
I used to read 300-page books about my vendor's products while I was *on vacation*. The stuff just fascinated me. Now I don't read it at all anymore. Maybe one day I'll be back, but that day isn't today.
Plus, the job helped stress out my marriage, and when a computer guy tries to force "ones and zeroes" thinking on a liberal arts creative singer, well things go wrong.
The main logistical issue is to make sure that you will have enough money to ride out an extended time while unemployed. You may have to consider cancelling recurring services, such as digital cable, or certain long-distance plans. You might have to consider that you may have to move back in with family, or somehow signing up for state assistance.
The rule for success (I forget who say it first): Figure out what price you would pay for what you want, and then pay that price. If you've got the money, then leaving a job because the color of the carpet disagrees with your flesh tones is a possibility. If the money isn't there, then learning what goes into a Taco Bell Chalupa may be in your future.
Ultimately, the only time that you will not have any problems is when you're dead. Part of realizing that I was a "grown up" was seeing that there are always more problems, and that waiting for those to go away before you become happy will never work.
Happiness is not the absence of problems. Happiness is what you have to bring to your problems in order to improve your life.
P.S. I have a job possibility on the horizon with a 40% pay cut. But it is a great work environment, and I have money stashed away. I can reduce my lifestyle, now that I know that I am not what I own.
It's a gamble, like many other things in life.
I left a decent IT support position back in 1998 as they were moving away from VMS and standardizing on NT. I went back to school to finish my BSECE degree, and now I do chip design -- I make almost twice as much money and I've worked on two fantastically groundbreaking microprocessors in the last four years.
Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. The down side? Student Loans.
I once interviewed with some idiot tool at Price Waterhouse who took a phone book sized questionnaire out and began reading, head down, eyes down, one absurdly arcane technical question after another. After about 30 of these I asked him if a) he could answer any of these and b) most of them you could just look up. So I got up, called him a idiot tool and walked out.
I interviewed once at a boutique consultancy long since sold out, for an entire day. 12 people, 12 half hour interviews. Each and every one of them had only one thing to say. That anyone hired would be expected to work at LEAST 100 hrs a week 6.5 days a week. The final interview was with the managing partner who had one question: do you think you can work this hard. My answer was "sure I can but I'd have to be retarded to do it for you." and walked out.
I interviewed with the 'director of applications of a retail chain owned by Trump. The fellow was an insane basket case who said flat out "I want to go to meetings and basically do nothing. You would have to be here 80-90 hrs week banging out CICS programs and screaming at the monkeys who work here to do the same. Are you interested?" I suggested that he should either get off or on drugs, right now and seek help.
I was once lectured for 15 minutes at TIAA-CREF over a misplaced comma on a resume by a guy who made me wait an hour to speak to him. WTF kind of OCD poster child did he want to be?
I interviewed at Gartner by a guy who was on his very last day at the company and told me to me face he didn't care who they hired or why.
In short you really have to retain a sense of humor for the people you interview and ultimately work for. Because nearly all of them are shitheads.
If you don't like your job for any reason, please quit it. That way, there will be an opening that I can have. And when I begin to hate that job, I will keep it because I need the money.
I recently left a job where I was a member of the founding team of the company. I had been there for four years and the company was moving in a different strategic direction. However, I knew that as soon as my resume hit the street my boss would hear about it. He had been good to me over the years and I felt I owed it to them to be up front and be the one to tell them. Not them hear it from someone else. Plus, I had tons of connections in the field I was staying in. Many at small companies and many at large, so I knew I would have good options for a place to land. Which I did, with a great company who I'm thrilled to be with. Moral of the story, sometimes its the right thing to do.
I quit a very high-paying job with a car rental company (the biggest one around, for those in the biz) a few years back on a point of principle. This is an extremely conservative company where smoothness and the cut of your suit (white shirts only! We dress like bankers! dickheads...) seem to matter more than your abilities. A very stifling company.
My direct manager, and the head of the business liaison team (business analysts), had both contributed to the firing of my boss' boss, and his boss' boss, in order to position himself for a promotion.
The BA had signed off on a prototype, assured us we were on the right track all along, then disowned the results when we delivered exactly what we had said we'd deliver. Months of effort by about fifty people, down the drain.
My boss had spread misinformation, lies, etc., claimed his bosses were asleep at the wheel. They were ousted, and shortly thereafter my boss quit too -- too little too late. I simply couldn't continue to work in an environment where politics is taken quite so seriously, and good people get the shaft.
Never looked back. That nightmare project is still on-going, nothing's in production really (couple of pilot locations). And the kicker? After multiple changes in architecture and direction, they are now implementing using the very same approach we used for the pilot that was rejected out of hand.
What a bone headed move. I've been in this business since you were a toddler and you NEVER quit until you have a new gig lined up unless you've been harassed or otherwise abused.
1. You quit a (good ?) paying job for a seemingly trivial reason. Bad move.
2. You missed the opportunity to learn a new development language and tool. Bad move.
3. As a good developer, one must embrace change or it will devour you.
In the 20+ years I've been a developer, only once have I quit without having a new gig lined up. In that case I filed a suit against the CEO and prevailed.
Get used to change. It's part of the job. If you hate the new owners, learn C# and Visual Studio and THEN look for another position. You passed up FREE training
Chances are very good you were going to get laid off soon anyway - they'd say they needed someone who was "already up to speed with the latest Microsoft tools".
Companies don't seem to retrain people, they just fire them and hire ones that are already at the required level of proficiency in whatever tool/environment/software/etc the company falls in love with next.
If a UNIX using company goes M$, the UNIX people will almost always get laid off - they won't be given the option of trying to adapt. The company will want "fresh blood" and people who don't need to be retrained, and who are already ready to perform 100% from the get go, and people who are "able to be made naturally to think in the new programming paradigm, etc".
This also gives them an excuse to fire the older workers without getting caught for age discrimination and hire younger, lower paid, less senior, easily moldable, replacements.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I just turned one down last week... My rule is if they can't beat me in a sales call, I won't even consider it.
Please explain what this means. Apparently it is very important, as it has been moderated to +5 Insightful. I don't get it.
....Because you have the courage to do what they cant; take control of your life. Timid people, (like myself) sit in dead-end jobs doing things we hate cause we are scared of loosing what we have to get something better. Those who deride you with the work is not supposed to be fun mantra probably are stuck in jobs that arent fun. It is only natural that they would resent who wants more for themselves. As for me, Im happy for you.
Good luck
If your company sues IBM you should quit your job. :)
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
My boss is a good example of how a management position need not be a souless paper shuffling job. He sees the management position as a way of tapping into organisation funds more directly, and because he pulls in his weight of work (his customers love having a clueful provider) we've got a pretty open R&D policy provided we deliver. He likes it because us minions mean that he can investigate a bunch more things than could could on his own.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
After toying in the computer field since age 12, writing applications and working for several companies including software developers, I walked away from it at age 35 and joined the military and now only work on computers (repairs, no longer coding) for fun, my job in the military has nothing to do with computer (unless I get to blow one up). I was no longer satisfied with working on computers and technology for a living, it took all the fun it used to be out ot it for me. That being said, I had a plan though, I had the military, which I enjoy (most of the time).
:( , not so fun ). DO what your life feels is right...If there are others in your life who are important (wife, kids...) get their support also.
My wife and I took a HUGE hit int the financial areas, my pay was significantly less and she (also in the IT field) had to do the job search once we arrived at our current location. Now she's having a difficult time with job satisfaction. Quite honestly, if the company isn't "dirty" in the way it dealed with it's vendors and customers (and finances), then the company treats Tech Support like the "Devil's Spawn", with hatred and contempt.
I guess what I'm trying to tell you is that, only you can weight the pros and cons of leaving a company for any reason, don't listen to what other's have to tell you (unless you ask them). As long as you can keep your head above water financially, taking into account life style changes, then do what every you fel the need to do. I went from a nice paying software develpment company in the SF Bay area making tons of contacts "networking" in other companies (IT and other), to moving to San Diego, driving small boats real fast, shooting weapons and blowing things up ( as well as going to war
Good luck.
Last week I had enough of him and the petty politics in the group, lab and between labs, so I left with only a promise from another employer. I was unemployed for about five minutes until I got the verbal offer after I quit.
Leaving without another job was something I've never done before, but it really didn't make a difference. I figured out that I could live on a smaller salary, and that by changing my mindset I could not only survive but thrive.
Why am I bucking conventional wisdom? Simple. I watched many peers and friends get marched out the door after getting fired (laid off, downsized, rightsized, participate in work force reduction program, etc.). There are no guarantees in working for any company. In fact, it's just a false sense of security because you can loose your job quite easily because some bozo didn't make a sale or miscalculated margins.
Here's what you need to keep in mind. You're not necessarily looking for a new job as much as planning your financial future. If it means two part time jobs instead of a full time one, great. If you have enough degrees to teach, do that and consult as well. Think of yourself as a business, devise a business plan and do a proforma analysis of your financial future, including cash flow. Once you have a plan, follow it. There may be less risk here than staying at your current job.
I got lucky. Everything fell into place. I'm now working full time with a consulting company, and I got a pay increase to boot. I don't think I would have done it if I hadn't stopped thinking as an employee. I don't know what the future holds, but I'm excited and happier.
My advice to you is look at all options, plan your next step and act on that plan. It could be either a new job, or a new business. Don't let emotions get in the way, and don't limit your thinking to simply being an employee. The bottom line is how much money can you make and will it be something agreeable.
Of course, lining up the new job before scrapping the old job never hurts
"I finally told my boss I was leaving and if he was nice about it I would remain available for a period of time after my departure."
A pleasant side effect of "going big" is actually changing the situation you're in vs. switching employers.
I was utterly miserable at a particular job. Absolutely destroying-my-soul miserable. A friend of mine heard my stories and was equally horrified, but then made a point of asking me what I had done to change the environment. I muttered the usual, all ineffective.
He pointed out that I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by charging the proverbial windmills with all my might, right to the top. If it was truly as bad as I described it, it certainly couldn't get any worse.
Turns out the Grand Poobahs had been equally frustrated but in a different direction. They too wanted change. They were miserable. It's just that nobody was really stepping forward with what needed to be said and how maybe to fix things. I ended up being the person who broke the ice, then many others finally felt able to talk as well.
One year later and I'm happy, doing the same job and getting better pay in the bargain. Pleasant working atmosphere, everyone feeling more like we're all in the same boat vs. "who's liver is next on the dinner plate?" It's still hard work, but after 20 years I know the difference between tough deadlines vs. death march. I feel good.
But I was fully prepared to be fired for my windmill charge. That was a definite possibility. When the situation is intolerable however, what's left to lose? And you've everything to gain.
Are you looking to start switch to another job, or start a business? If you're looking to switch, it's always good to have another offer on the table when you do. This not only gives you security when leaving your old job, but actually gives you bargaining power when negotiating your new one. You can demand much more from your new company if you're secure in your old job, compared to starving on the streets and wearing a Will code for food t-shirt.
Of course, another option is not to change jobs at all, but to instead make your own. I've started four businesses in my time, with varying degrees of success. My most successful and satisfying endeavour to date has been Perl Training Australia, which is now about three and a half years old, has fantastic people, an impressive list of clients, and is continuing to grow strongly. I love it, and would never go back.
Starting your own business is not for everyone, and certainly not something that should be done lightly. You shouldn't even think of starting a business unless you already have the three key ingredients: money, friends, and social skills.
Without enough money you'll get scared or go hungry during the start-up phase, and even if your business could have succeeded you'll find yourself endlessly worrying and looking for full-time work.
Without friends and contacts you'll have a hard time finding the work for your business to succeed. Word of mouth is the gold of advertising in small business, and when you're first starting up you'll need as much as you can get.
Social skills are key for any small business. More than getting the job done, customers and suppliers alike want to feel appreciated and understood and important. There's a reason why everyone in the sales department gets paid so much, it's because the customer-facing roles are so important.
If you've got all the above, then stay in your job and begin talking to other small business owners in the area. Find out what they do, what they want, what their experiences have been, and how you may be able to help. If truly think there's enough work there to keep you alive, then you may wish to consider starting your own business. If you do so, then keep in mind that most small businesses fail within the first year. So hope for the best, but plan for the worst.
Oh, one final word of advice. The "be your own boss, set your own hours" dream isn't all what it's cracked up to be. When starting up you can expect to be working twice as hard for half as much. There's a lot more to business than just the hours you can log against a client's account.
Good luck!
-- Paul
That means that if they don't have a better product or service to offer than the company he is working for now, he won't consider. He wants to work for the market leader.
My old job was equal parts awesome and awful, at first; as the screws turned and some really odd and bad events (politics) started to play themselves out at my old job, the equation tipped more towards awful. I started feeling...let's say say anxious (like, blood in places where blood should not be anxious), all of the damn time, I decided to leave.
I was a good boy, though, and stayed to try and help make the transition for new guy as smooth as possible (a couple of other people decided to leave, and they showed me the way NOT to leave an organization-especially one of them, who left innacurate information, missing password lists, and, well, "imaginitive" router configs that vanished with the first power outage).
So leave if you feel awful, but try to stay on good terms-no sense in making things worse, and you can look back on things with a minimum of regret and awkwardness.
I'm young though, single, no kids-so I was much more free to make that decision. I moved halfway across the country with no real plan and got lucky finding work, but if I had a kid, I don't think I could have been so reckless.
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New posting technique to earn karma:
Post something that's entirely nonsense, but open-enough to interpretation that moderators will go "hmm, I'm not sure what it means, but he must have a point to make here..."
Comment of the year
'Calvin, go do something you hate. Being miserable builds character.'
If you quit your job, some things in your life will inevitably change, some for the better and some for the worse. If you don't quit, you will know for 100% sure that it won't get any better.
That said, it is of course up to each one to judge when a job is bad enough to quit, and how good or bad the prospects are for something different.
I know a geek who got tired of a well paid job at IBM and became a carpenter. Never regretted it for a minute. Personally, I would not like that at all, but as said, we are all different.
I applied for two jobs, one called me back very quickly, gave me an interview, and offered me a job. I told them that I was waiting to hear on another job, and that I'd like to hold off on my acceptance until I heard back.
The person started getting pushy and belligerant. I pointed out to him that if I accepted the job, and two weeks later found out that the other offer was better, it would not be fair TO ME to pass up the other job - and that it would not be fair TO HIM if I left his company after two weeks.
At that point, he started getting REALLY pushy. Almost angry. He started going into metaphors about high school dances to get me to take the job right then because he had a lot of work to do. I even offered to work for him for a few weeks FOR FREE until I heard back on the other job. He just got more and more pushy, belligerant, and bully-ish.
At that point, I came to my senses and realized that I should turn him down cold. Even if I never heard back from the other job, I did not ever, ever, EVER want to work for someone like that. I politely but firmly told him that I no longer wanted the job, and left. I've never looked back, nor have I ever regretted it.
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
My company was bought recently, and is in the process of becoming a C# VisualStudio shop. I said thanks, but no thanks and left. Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay?
The short answer is: yes, you are.
Given the crappy state of the industry as it is right now, quitting a high paying job over a (minor?) technology direction change is probably not a very bright idea. It sounds even worse if you factor in your apparent lack of experience with the new environment - you don't even stick around long enough to give it a try, right?
That being said, I can understand your choice. I don't particularly like the MS tools style, always have been more of a Borland type. But it goes deeper than this:
There are really two types of developers, namely the mercenaries and the artists. Most people are mercenaries. They just come to work, and as long as things are not absolutely terrible, they just do exactly what was specified. Then, after 8 hours, they pack up and leave their workplace to do whatever their real interests are. If you're a mercenary, it's totally stupid for you to quit over a tools issue like this.
The Artists, on the other hand, are people who shape the projects they implement. They are the ones with the vision, the ones who invest their soul into the product. If you're an artist, commands from management, like a change in technology or tools, can have a huge impact. Such a change can make your environment hostile, especially if the new direction conflicts with your ideals. Frankly, you don't sound like an artist, but if you are one, you have to quit over this and start over somewhere new where management shares your values and ideals.
Most companies really frown on the artist thing. They'd rather hire 5 mercenaries than 1 artist. Artists are difficult to manage traditionally, and they impose a constant danger of doing things that run contrary to the pointy-haired-boss school of business.
I worked at Hill Air Force Base as a "Software Engineer," or so the title was. I actually did maintenence and bug fixes on old ATLAS code that ran on HP 1000s configured as F-16 black box test benches. The pay was decent. The stress level was next to 0. No mandatory OT and all the voluntary OT you wanted. I had a LOT of freedom -- leaving early if I wanted. Hey, this was the government. I [practically] couldn't get fired. Lots of sick and vacation time too.
Problem was: I hated the work. It was not at all fulfilling or rewarding. All the perks were there: pay, security, personal time off, and very low stress. I just didn't enjoy what I was doing. So, I applied to a company in the private sector, got an offer (albeit for more money,) and now I'm a REAL engineer will more stress, let time off, less security, and higher accountability. And, I'm loving every minute of it -- simply because I feel like I'm actually contributing. I'm actually doing something worth while. I enjoy what I do, and that, to me, is more important than all the other aspects.
sig: sauer
If I get up in the morning and absolutely DREAD going to work every morning for a week, you can bet I'll be gone within another week. There is NO reason not to enjoy what you do. You spend at least as much time on your day job as you do sleeping, working on hobbies, or any other activity in your life. I've always considered it imperative to enjoy reporting to work. When a decent technical career soured, guess what? I found out that I enjoyed tending bar. Granted the recompense wasn't the best but it got me by until I could find something more suitable. Bottom line is, if you haven't painted yourself into a financial/lifestyle corner you can do what you damn well please and the nay-sayers can go piss up a rope.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
Hey, it worked for Jesus.
The company I was working for (subcontracted to NASA) needed to lay someone off. I volunteered to be laid off. I'd worked at the job for almost twenty years and wanted to go do something (anything!) else. I was laid off January 31st, 2003.
:-)
The next day the Space Shuttle blew up. There were no jobs available after that. So my wife and I lived on unemployment while I looked around for a new job. I worked on some projects for friends but those only worked out kind-of ok. There were problems. As there are always problems with being a contractor on a job where the people you are working for think that 200 web pages is a simple task to be done in a month's time. At any rate, this got us through 2003 and into 2004.
Surprisingly, in 2004 I was asked to come back (via a different company) to work on the same stuff I'd been working on before. I agreed to do it part time and haven't regretted it since. Now I only work half the time I used to work and yet I still make enough to pay for everything and have some money left over.
So the morale of the story is: Be sure to have something else ready to go to. But if, as I felt, you feel strongly that you need to just leave - then do so. It may be tough. You may have to go back to where you were working. But some times there are just too many pressures to deal with and you just can't take it anymore and need to get away. By leaving my job and then coming back with a different company - I am being treated entirely differently than I was before. Further, there are only four people in my new company (including the owner and his partner). So there is a much nicer feel to the entire place. I only wish this was how things were for the past almost twenty years.
For the others with whom I work - they found out rather quickly just how much work I had been doing for them before I left. I think this is one of the reasons they wanted me back so badly. When you are one of the two people who understand all of a million line program and you can quickly and easily make changes to the entire program when it takes other months to just understand what is going on - it does make you rather indispensable.
L8r!
Someone put a black hole in my pocket and now I'm broke.
I left a 6 figure job after 7 years to go into teaching. The trick is that you must have cash banked away to survive the transition. If you are just quitting on a wing and a prayer, forget it. Have an understanding of what you want to do, a plan for doing it, the resources to do it (cash, education etc...) and then go do it!
Even though I am taking a 75% pay cut, I am looking forward to having fun with the kids, not carrying a pager, not driving into work at 2 A.M. because a backhoe operator caused a massive power outage (which caused database servers to go onto UPS power), and of course summers off.
Everything in life is a tradeoff. Figure out what you want and what you are willing to give in trade. Also, don't forget to think about retirement. Do you have enough put away in your 401K? Also, don't forget about Cobra (HealthCare) costs. Cobra is about $1000/mo. to maintain health benefits. I can't stress the importance of health insurance enough.
Good Luck...
My advice in a nutshell: research, plan, gather resources, and execute!
OK, how many other people checked his web site to see if they knew him from a previous job?
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
I was working on the rail road all the live long day, and quite literally. Going to work 3 times every two days and having only 4 hours of sleep between jobs if I was lucky. The unions, politics between the workers and manangement, and the hours turned me into a fat miserable person, till I quit.
I didn't have anything lined up when I gave them my notice. I am currently living off of student loans and handouts while trying to pay for my brand new vehicle and college.
I was able to land a decent job at the local oil company (beats McD's) as a part time IT person. Making decent pay, but nothing like I did when on the railroad.
My recommendation is to find a better job. Have something lined up before hand. The economy is tight and you might not be able to find a better job and good luck!
Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay?
No fool are you. Do what you believe in and what you enjoy. Life is too short for any other way.
-- $G
My story... I was a developer at a large company with good pay, great benefits, interesting work, good work environment, and a fantastic boss. A former employee of mine called me up with a job offer for a non-development (but development related) job in an exciting industry. I wasn't all that excited about the specific job, but the 90% pay raise and the specific industry convinced me.
Almost 4 years later, I have to say that I've given it my best shot, and the money is definitely great, but the job itself is leaching my soul away and I've started looking for something else. The work isn't actually bad, other people there love it, but it's just not a good fit for my personality / abilities. It got to where every day I had to basically talk myself into actually going to work, every work day was long and depressing, and I was always counting the days til the weekend which I never did before.
So I'm looking for something in development again, and getting used to the idea of living on about half my current salary (hopefully!) For me at least, I have to say the money was nice in and of itself, but not worth the stress and angst.
I am writing a rare reply to this thread as I was about to quit my job at a fortune 500 company. After 3 years of finding other jobs internally, but not being allowed to transfer, I was coming to a condition were all my work was over. I did get a job offer from a nice spot ( it was something I liked to do but also allowed time for grad school. ) and was given my first and last permit to go. 2 days before transfer, I was fired. Specifically, to make it impossible to go to the new job. In the time of this incident, I had correctly percieved that a signature is not a promise, and did my level best to search for a job outside the company as well as a job inside. Economy up here is tight, so I ended up streetside. I am in gradschool full time now, and its been a blessing. I had put away cash and maitain a secondary income channel. In 4 years, I should have the MSCS and PhD in Imaging I wanted. Running from Bad people and conditions make sense. Running from a condition of shop change? Fear not the future! Fear the trolls who act as the past!
Despite the fact that I like the folks on my team and my immediate management have treated me OK, I just dread the act of going into work and really don't like the role I was assigned. While it's no sweatshop, we're dreadfully undermanned (due to mergers and consolidation, and general cluelessness on the part of management).
Why am I departing? Well, there are a bunch of reasons and they weigh heavier than the impetus to stay, including the big fat paycheck that I could just go through the motions and keep ringing the bell every 2 weeks.
AZspot
I'm surprised that no own has discussed the idea sometimes called 'downshifting'. You know, it's not a requirement of life to have a beige condo, a mortgaged car, and dependent wife- although you might get sucked into those things in reverse order if you fall under the wrong person's spell. :)
;), baking your own bread, and building stuff with dumpster-dived lumber.
From my perspective, there is plenty to make life sweet, purposeful, and meaningful without bringing in big money.. things like the public library, a directional wifi antenna
Looking at the last 1000 years, someone living in a relatively simply way in the modern west, and working part time still has options for living far beyond what most of humankind felt pretty happy with during most of that time. To put it another way, how would you feel towards the person of the future who essentially asked 'Should I quit my job? I'd be giving up my 5000 square foot home, I'd have to learn to use a kitchen, and start wearing clothes more than once, so I guess that's not really an option. I better have another job lined up first.'?..
I recently left a good paying job for several reasons. Mostly because I decided that I likely wasn't going to be successful in the position. I can point fingers at management, but also at myself.
In 2000 I formally retired for about 3 years at the age of 35. I knew I'd have to work again, but I had the finaical means to not work and I enjoyed it immensely. Maybe I'm spoiled now, but I'm not afraid to leave a job - or turn down a potential job if I feel it won't work out.
For the most part still looking - but the journey is the reward. Once a long time ago in my early 20's did I go begging for another chance and got it - only to be laid off 3 months latter and the company was gone within a year.
C# has a lot of advantages and I use it regularly as my language of choice. I was a hardcore ANSI C bit-twiddler for years, writing in-line assembly code as needed, but the code would often have subtle problems with pointer math, buffer overruns, etc. C# gives me the syntax I'm familar with, with a clean object orientation. If I truly need the performance of C/C++, I can code modules in that language.
In fact, I much prefer C# and the .NET Framework over ATL and MFC which, by comparsion, were clunky hacks.
No, you've gained valuable experience - whether it's positive or negative. Remember, it's just a job. Best wishes!
Many people work to find fulfillment. For some, work does the trick. For others, its relationships, spending time outdoors, hanging with friends, creating new things, reading or self-improvement - you name it.
:P
I seriously doubt that games offer many people fulfillment for any significant period of time, though.
That said, most of the things I find in the least bit fulfilling are directly related to social significance: having a good job, being respected, having a good debate, and things of that order. None of that would be possible in this "utopian" society you speak of, because without work most of the structure of society becomes not only less significant but useless and outmoded (social security, taxes, etc.). If it ever were to happen, I suspect we'd have a large number of people reverting to agrarian communes or something to that respect: hard work has a significant degree of satisfaction associated iwth it.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
The same can be true even if you have a good job.
In fact, many bosses aren't even around to notice the extra effort you are putting in to your job, since they went home long ago. Some will mistake detication for free productivity - and just keep handing you enough work to make sure you keep eating lunch and dinner at your desk, and forfit a personal life.
Instead, I suggest that it is EVERY employee's responsibility to maintain an active communication stream (even PR) with his boss, and co-workers. Document what you do. Make the documentation readily available/obvious. Send an UN-solicited status report email to your boss at LEAST once per month, twice is better. The fact that the boss got something extra that was NOT asked for should make it stand out, and instantly suspect -but this is actually for YOUR benefit, not just the boss. Include some form of *question* about your work in the email, asking how to procede, or priorities, whatever... Because of that question, the boss has to at least acknowlege that you sent the message, and s/he read it. If you don't get a reply, mention it in the hall or on the phone a day later, when you are talking about something else. After a few of these, the boss figures you are involving them in the decision process - and your subsequent emails DO get read with a little more detail - in case there were other questions.
Include a simple list of current tasks, and recent accomplishments. Including priority expected hours, requirements, problems, deliverables. If the boss wants to change the priority, OK- if not, then they have implied agreement with your current plan of action, in writing, which reduces disputes later.
BE productive, but don't be taken for granted.
Bummer- but that's life, (and they werent paying for late hours anyway, were they...)
In fact, make it a firm policy to finish what you are working on 10 min before the end of your day, spend 5 min documenting things, 5 min to tidy up or pack your stuff, and then cheerfully LEAVE! (with the unspoken implication that you have already planned things after work)
Now that you have THAT working schedule in place- the boss has to specificly ASK you to work late, and perhaps even pre-schedule, since you may have other plans right after work. If the boss ASKs you to put in the extra hours, then it's no longer free volunteer labor, and you might expect to be paid too... or at least have comp-hours added for time off later. (well, you can hope)
Now- to make this work requires some personal DICIPLINE. Make the job hours PRODUCTIVE, not just THERE for nine hours.
Time management is KEY, visibility helps, deliverables rule.
-- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero
I've been reading through these posts at -1 and have noticed that there are 2 trains of thought. The first is to keep the job and look for something better, the second is to go for it and step into the deep end.
The first is the wise practical sollution, the well thought out reliable you. Keep the house, the car, make sure the children are fed and in clothes. Personally I think that if you have dependents this is the way to go. The choice between feeding your children, doing a job you don't like, and starving, looking for a job you like, is difficult. and many people seem to treat this lightly. (At least in the comments.)
They forget however that thing you always said as a child, I don't want to end up like my parents in a dead end job, doing something I don't like just for my children. I want them to see that life is fun. Luckly the example I got was my father quiting his well paid job to go and do what he wanted; to get out of life what he needed and although I know he sometimes doubted himself for oursake, we never wanted for anything.
The second is the set into the deep end, the unknown, space the final front ear. And it's scary, it's scary as hell. This is the way I go, probably because of the example I got, and it doesn't always work out. Although somehow it always does for me in the end.
I quit a job I had in May last year, not because I didn't like the people or because of the fact that the owner had shafted my friends a couple of years back. (They all work for him now.) I quit because I wasn't getting what I should from my boss; a thank you; a please. I had just saved the company 500.000 euros in yearly license fees - I don't need a bonus, but thanks would be nice. I had just had a break up too and thought that it was just wat I needed, a fresh start. So I told them that I was going to go, and told them the reasons why.
I left and was unemployed for 6 months, literally surviving hand to mouth on the odd jobs I could get. Ok, so there was a little consulting work here and there. Then I got a call from a friend saying he had been offered a job, but couldn't take it as he was working for my former employer. It was in another country and might lead to more work, but paid well and looked like it would be heavenly.
And the rest as they say is history. I now work in Zurich as a consultant and will soon be moving to Leeds for more consulting work. In between I'll have 6 months of holiday, to make up for the 6 months of unemployment hell.
Anyway, my basic message is value yourself and others will value you.
'I am become Shiva, destroyer of worlds'