Costa Rica May Criminalize VoIP

chia_monkey writes "Here's an interesting little tidbit about the 'free' Internet. Seems Costa Rica may make it a crime to make Internet-based phone calls. It would be a shame if this sets a precedent of setting legistlation that would seriously stunt the growth of these emerging technologies that should be making communication cheaper and easier, not harder and illegal."

Comments

Crime ?

[mirko]

This just seems so wrong : of all central american countries, Costa Rica is the only one without a confusing bloddy story, why would they start now ?

Re:Crime ?

[TyfStar]

you know.. I hate to say it, but I can't say this is a bad thing. I hate VoIP! About damn time someone outlaws it! with the little "quirks" and "disabilities".... I say we outlaw it until it gets mo' bettah.

Re:Crime ?

[PingPongBoy]

I was under the impression that people who want to evade the powers that be would do their dirty work in third world countries. Not that VoIP is dirty, but if all kinds of blatant Internet craziness is happening via servers located outside the reach of the law, you would think VoIP would fall under the proverbial radar.

Of course, the debate probably centres over the billability of long distance over the Internet. To this I say get a life - technology is supposed to make us poor consumers happier. High speed Internet is not cheap. I've paid for the infrastructure and I want it to mean more than downloading /. fast.

I advocate economic sanctions against any country that oppressively regulates basic harmless technology.

Panama/Paraguay?

[Spacejock]

Didn't this already happen in another South American country? I thought I read something about a year ago on a similar subject, where VOIP was going to be illegal to protect the state-owned telecommunications company.

Re:Panama/Paraguay?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Panama, phone carriers, aside from the monopoly, cannot carry domestic long distance calls. But the way some VOIP carriers get around this is by routing the traffic outside the country and then back again to complete a domestic long distance call.

Believe it or not they can still do it cheaper than the national phone company.

Re:Panama/Paraguay?

[epe]

It is illegal in almost every south american country .

Here in Ecuador VoIP is considered a Value added service and you should have a permission to operate it. Ciber cafes must pay a monthly/yearly fee to the local telco in order to operate. For example 50usd/month or depending on the amount of calls processed. Oh yes, you can only originate calls. You can not be the end point (that would be considered bypassing and you will be jailed for sure).

The goal? To protect the local telcos.

For example, before the VoIP wave, a call to USA would cost around 1.50 USD/minute. Then the ciber cafes started offering calls at 39c/minute and local telcos saw a danger in it, they had to reduce their enormous profits in order to cope with that rate and attrack customers.

Oh yes bypassing (sending phone calls traffic vía internet and delivering it to the local facilities) is illegal as well and no way to obtain a permission for it.

Local telcos can use and use digital means to distribute their traffic. But only in between them, the authorised telcos.

And why all this? Well, the "national interests are being affected". "Local telcos belong to people and people lost if traffic goes thru voip." What they don't see is that they have their companies employing large quantity of personel (more than the recommended) and of course with very high salarial budgets and of course they cant compete against voip operators, they don't see that they can reduce the cost per minute a lot (they should be paying international carriers less than 5c/minute and earning at the moment more than 35c/minute) and if they reduce it, calls will increase and earnings too. Also, competittion is good. Some VoIP operators have bad quality but at least people will be able to choose from where to call.

The world is changing, this stupid prohibitions will be dropped some day as the governements must understand the internet is here to stay and a lot of laws and things must be conciliated with the way internet works.

it's not yet

[coolcold]

criminalize....it's just the telecom company wants to criminalize it but somehow i think it would be interesting to see how they argue on their point

Don't tell this to the romanian phone company...

[szlevente]

...as I'm sure it will follow suit.

Great news from impoverished island...

[Anonymous Coward]

from socialism gone wrong... instead of developing state owned infrastructure to benefit society, develop state owned monopolies to fleece society.

at least some verizon asshat didn't write that law. i'll take politicians writing stupid laws over corporate fascists any day.

Re:Great news from impoverished island...

[joeljkp]

You can keep your opinion, but at least get the facts straight.

Costa Rica is not particularly impoverished (at least compared to all of its neighbors), and it isn't an island.

Re:Great news from impoverished island...

[mindstrm]

Okay, first:

Costa Rica is NOT an island.

Second: It's not at all impoverished, in fact it's flourishing.

For many years, the state owned infrstructure did benefit society. Cellular and telephone rates are affordable at local prices, if you can obtain them. Now, it's a make-work project, inefficient, top-heavy, and on the edge of being privatised.

Small step

[johannesg]

I suppose it is only a small step from saying "you are not allowed to transport data over this network if it encodes voice traffick" to "you are _only_ allowed to transport government-licensed data over this network".

But hey, I'm not worried - I still have an acoustic modem somewhere in my house...

Re:Small step

[cpuffer_hammer]

For the first time in human history Opera will be the norm and plays and other spoken arts will be a creative step .

As if one country could withstand change

[2TecTom]

Let them try, in the end, any such effort to cripple the net will only end in failure. My big question is why do we elect such dumbasses?

Re:As if one country could withstand change

[Kamerynn]

Yes, in fact it is much more democratic than most "occidental countries" it is somewhat of a centralized power system, but still people are ELECTED there evry 4 years. Also, I should mention that the state has no military forces, only police and security forces for internal security. What an ignorant post you made.

Re:As if one country could withstand change

[2TecTom]

I was speaking in generalities, you dumbass! By the way, aren't you the brave one. Not only are you a coward and stupid, but I see you're rude as well. From this I can only surmise that your a conservative republican, no? Most dumbasses are, I've noticed. I'll bet you're too cowardly to reply with your real id, or do you even have one? Well anyways, l8r loser ...

Good luck...

[tliet]

with trying to enforce that policy. Would iChat on Mac OS X (or any other voice/video chat program) be illegal as well?

Re:Good luck...

[iztaru]

It depends of the new law.

In this moment is aready ilegal to use the ICE's data network for VoIP trafic because it competes with the ICE's voice network (ICE has a monopoly on voice trafic). However, the problem is not the personal use of it, the problem begins when you want to profit on it, because it would be unfair competence:

1. You pay a personal connection to the internet.
2. You set a business of international phone calls.
3. You are using the ICE's network for something that is not allowed according your contract.

The problem here is that the ICE is a monopoly and you cannot select any other ISP, but in normal conditions, any company is allow to stablish the conditions of use for its resources.

Huh?

[DarKry]

Might as well throw people in jail for talking. hell lets ban all communication while we are at it. I mean heaven forbid I write a note to someone and hand it to them instead of letting a middle man make money off of it.

Re:Huh?

[Politburo]

While there are obvious problems with this proposed law, it is no where near a ban on "all communication" and there is absolutely no insight in this chicken little post.

Re:Huh?

[Fortyseven]

Every place you look it's turning into that. Not asking "what can we do to improve life?", but "how can we turn a profit?".

It makes me seriously ill. It's capitalism gone awry.

It's not that I'm against the idea of business, in theory, it's just that most people are programmed to believe that merely being successful isn't enough. You have to have money flowing out your ass and have destroyed at least six other competing companies -- drowning in a nauseatingly deep sea of cash.

I think Godzilla should have battled Big Business at some point. Might have been an interesting battle.

Re:Huh?

[humanerror]

What? You thought "A penny for your thought" meant they wanted to pay you?

You thought your two cents worth was going to be a revenue stream rather than an expense?

You must be a terrorist.

Why do you hate Freedom?

Re:Huh?

[bbuR_bbuB]

Time to play Devil's Advocate! Perhaps the gov't is trying to enact measures to ensure its government owned telco stays afloat. Yes, VOIP would be great for those in the cities, but what about the people out in the country? How could the government pay for them to have telecommunications too (at least phones) if it is being run out of business by VOIP firms? Are there privately held telcos in Costa Rica? It's not like the Costa Rican government is sitting around, plotting the demise of /. or anything... Get real, buddy.

Re:Huh?

[XSforMe]

No surprises here; the Costa Rican telephone system is owned and runned by the government. Many ill conceived democracies will center their financial support on the utilities of utility companies rather than taxation (it helps the ruling party on elections). The excrement hits the cooling device for these mockup states when the company is doing bad or technology threatens the business model.

Nationalised telephone company

[igorthefiend]

That's the key to all this. They want it to be illegal because the state might lose money.

Re:Nationalised telephone company

[gowen]

Right, and it's *only* the telephone company proposing this. No one in the Costa Rican government is (as yet) onside.

Can you say "Nothing to see here. Move Along"?

Re:Nationalised telephone company

[huntse]

Yup. Last time I did business there, all communications (including voice and internet traffic) went through ICE, the state monopoly telco.

For this reason, (for example) you couldn't use a foreign mobile phone in Costa Rica. This is a purely commercial thing.

Re:Nationalised telephone company

[plsander]

You are probably right.

Amateur Radio Operators (HAMs) (Remember them from the BPL stories?) have to abide by "Third Party Agreements" See the list at http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/io/3r dparty.html . These agreements allow hams to pass messages to or from non-hams in other countries.

Oddly, Costa Rica is one of the countries that allows third party traffic.

Re:Nationalised telephone company

[juanfe]

Well, that's changing. As a result of the Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA) negotiations, Costa Rica finally, after being asked to leave the room because they weren't playing ball and "this room is only for serious negotiations" (funny thing, a friend of mine was involved in the negotiations and had some choice things to say regarding that), finally came to and agreed to privatize, over time, two of its big national industries: insurance and telecom. [http://www.ustr.gov/assets/Document_Library/Repor ts_Publications/2004/2004_National_Trade_Estimate/ 2004_NTE_Report/asset_upload_file462_4745.pdf]

To get internet access in Costa Rica, unless you were a scientific institution, you still have to go through the ICE, the state entity. They charge higher-than-US dialup prices for nowhere close to US-quality service (monthly access fees PLUS minutes of usage on your phone line). To get a cell phone you often must wait months and can only get it through them. Costa Rica's basic argument is that telecommunications is a right of people, that both the airwaves and the land through which phone lines travel are Costa Rican property and that they should be driven by social need rather than profit. Great in theory: in practice, apalling.

Interestingly, this new proposed regulation can't really be very long-lived UNLESS they say that because they agreed to open up their network, internet and wireless lines (nothing said of Plain-ole-telephone service), they may be saying that this will compete with a public national service and undermine the goal of the state.

I don't buy it.

Re:Nationalised telephone company

[Garabito]

Actually ICE, the local state-owned telco is not proposing to outlaw VoIP. It's a little more complex than that.

The law proposal in question dates from 1998. It had some provisions to outlaw some int'l calling services that some local semi-clandestine bussines provided, like callback and others. ICE, saw those services as telecommunications fraud, because it's the only organization allowed by law to do so, and wanted a law that prosecuted them.

International calls are relatively expensive in Costa Rica, because int'l calls subsidize local calls and universal service. It's cheaper to make a long distance call from the U.S. to Costa Rica than the other way around; as a result, these services flourished.

But then, VoIP became popular and it falled into a legal limbo, because of the law mandated monopoly. And there was this law proposal, gathering dust at the congress, that technically would criminalize VoIP if it wasn't provided by the ICE. And a local newspaper brought up the story. When some ICE executives were asked, they said that this service should be subject of regulations, but not exactly outlawed. A ICE spokeperson said in that article that this law proposal should be changed to adapt to current technology.

This proposal has not been debated in Congress, but if it does, I think that legislators are not such as morons and will modify it.

Illegal in South Africa till Feb 05

[Anonymous Coward]

VOIP was criminilized in South Africa since 1996. It was illegal to make any voip calls whatsoever, that means no MSN Chat, Skype etc.
VOIP became legal on Feb 1005 only after the Telkom (national telco) regulator started to break up Telkom's monopoly.

Re:Illegal in South Africa till Feb 05

[LiquidCoooled]

Theres me thinking that the Millenium bug was a big bag of pungent air.
Now you can all go back to your bosses and say "I told you so".

Re:Illegal in South Africa till Feb 05

[Mhtsos]

Oooo I love a good conspiracy theory. Let's make a list of the possibilities.

1) VoIP technology is actually part of the lost technology of ancient Greeks who in turn got it from the technologically advanced aliens that were the greek pantheon. This knowledge ws lost to all but an obscure tribe in South Africa that took care of an injured travelling wise man some 2500 years ago.
2) Having seen the decline of their telecommunications organization due to the expantion of VoIP the South African goverment will eventually discover time travel and travel back in time to stop its development.
3) Typo
4) 2 AND 3 : The typo will be made by the man who enters the temporal coordinates into the time machine. He wanted to travel to 2005.

Re:Illegal in South Africa till Feb 05

[GraemeDonaldson]

Yes, we still haven't gotten around to fixing that damn Y2K bug yet. ;)

Re:Illegal in South Africa till Feb 05

[squiggleslash]

It's completely [tt]rue.

This all dates back to the cold war and research done by various scientists and archeologists. Back in 1982, the world was taken by surprise when Soviet archeologists called a press conference and reported they had found a massive grid of copper wires buried under Russia that had been carbon dated back to 1500AD. The Soviets said this was clear evidence the telephone had been invented in Russia, and that Russians had been using a sophisticated telephone network five hundred years previous.

American scientists did similar work and after a lot of research reported in a big press conference in 1983 that they found a large amount of buried fiber optic cable spanning the entire United States and linking to Western Europe. They carbon dated this back to 1200AD, making it clear evidence that the West had had a sophisticated packet-switching fiber-optic network 800 years previous.

The South Africans, then under Apartheid and desperate to shore up its worsening image with the rest of the world, then undertook its own research. For four years, South African archeologists excavated, passing soil samples to the best of their scientists. Finally, in 1987, they excitedly called a press conference. After all this digging, they had found absolutely nothing, there were no cables - copper, fiber-optic, or otherwise - under the ground at all.

Which could only mean one thing, their scientists reported breathlessly: back in 1005, South Africa had the best mobile telephone network the world had ever seen.

(This has been a message from Give an Old Joke a Home. Every year, millions of old jokes go homeless, existing barely on recycled scraps from Dennis Miller and Drew Carey. If you liked this joke, consider making it your own.)

Re:Illegal in South Africa till Feb 05

[advocate_one]

The old South African Government would never allow any statements to be made that would imply there had been advanced technology/civilisation prior to the arrival of the white man...

Let me guess

[DrXym]

The state telco has a monopoly and sees VoIP as a threat to its massively expensive and arcane service. Solution? Criminalize VoIP under the feeble pretense that you're fighting a war against drugs or somesuch.

Re:Let me guess

[Ramirozz]

Thats exactly the case. ICE (Instituto Costarricense de Electricidad) has a monopoly and controls the Internet connection. They offer VoIP so they want to get the most until the FTA starts. Anyway the country is fighting against the FTA but I think they should take it if the protect what they have and get a better deal.

IM ?

[Jimpqfly]

I don't understand how you can criminalize VOIP and authorize Instant Messenging ...

sadly enough...

[ecalkin]

it's easy: since the telephone co is owned/controlled by the state, voip is *stealing* from the state.

similar to states that tax alcohol and it's a crime to bring (over a very limited qty) it into the state from other states.

eric

Re:sadly enough...

[EsbenMoseHansen]

states that tax alcohol and it's a crime to bring (over a very limited qty) it into the state from other states.

It's not a crime to bring over however much alcohol you like. You just have to pay the taxes. How do you think the CH_3CH_2OH made it into your state in the first place?

I'm assuming here that your local law (US?) is not totally insane

Re:sadly enough...

[coolcold]

so make it pay tax and under the same condition of the telecom works?

Re:sadly enough...

[incabulos]

It isnt stealing from the state as the state has no right to your money in the first place. Or do you regard changing ISPs or telcos as stealing from the first ISP or telco that you were a customer of? What if I cancel my Cable TV subscription and take up golf or surfing or gardening instead, does that make me a thief also?

If the buggy whip makers had a corrupt government they could manipulate, then they would have lobbied to make cars illegal because they cut into the lucrative buggy whip market and their profits.

Its symptomatic of government corruption and corporations exploiting and colluding with the criminals in government in order to make money. No more, no less. And sadly, its hardly uncommon.

Re:sadly enough...

[voidptr]

It is illegal in Pennsylvania for a citizen of the commonwealth to import liquor across state lines. There's no option to pay the taxes, you must buy it from the state liquor stores or the beer distributors.

Interstate commerce be damned.

Maybe the real reason?

[tobybuk]

I've not RTFA but from discussion I had with someone 'in the know' it may well come back to the country loosing a significant amount of income from the price they charge for inbound telephony. When you call CR part of the price you pay for the call goes to the CR government. This is vital foreign exchange a country such as theirs cann ill afford to lose.

For a country that needs this income to build its hospitals, social infrastructure (yes and Army, corruption etc) it is a big blow.

If this is the reason I can actually support this. Despite what seem like the majority of the Slashdot crowd think, there is more to life that getting 'free' services from the Internet.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are affraid to loose money they should raise taxes and get rid of the monopoly on telephone services. That would provide the nessecary fundings for hospitals and schools.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[Yomers]

Prohibition of a new technology will never be a good solution for such problems, they'll lose more at the end if they'll prohibit voip.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[jamesgray]

(yes and Army, corruption etc)

Um, Costa Rica doesn't have an army. It's probably one of the least corrupt countries in Central America...
Not that banning VoIP is good idea or anything - just be careful about what you say (especially when you have no idea what you're talking about ;)

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[thetejon]

Actually, Costa Rica does not actually have an army, and they are quite proud of this. What they do have is a stable democratic government and a literacy rate very close to that of the U.S.. It is true that they are poor compared to many nations and may have some slightly unorthodox ways of making money (For example, they charge a $26 exit tax when tourists leave the country - it goes towards maintaining the airport and such). But this is not a backwards country run by corrupt drug dealers or army generals. I don't know anything about the government's role in telephony there, so I will assume you're right about the income it receives. But I think you've been fed some misinformation about the general state of the country.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[tobybuk]

I had no idea they had no Army, thanks for pointing this out. Kind of makes my point more apt I think.

I agree I know little about CR, but I do know they are poor and all poor countries need foreign exchange.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[digitalchinky]

I'm not sure if I'm in the minority here, but I don't consider VoIP to be any more a 'service' than web pages originating on port 80. It's just traffic over the same old wire. Only place it has any more importance is the 'board meeting' or those managerial key phrases the boss likes to use in utter ignorance.

Yes, the interface between the net and the telephone service will cost money, but IP to IP voice is a 'value added' type service how? (I know the OP didn't say it exactly that way)

I'm inclined to think corporate entities like to 'play up' the significance of what is really very insignificant just to make a buck...

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[tobybuk]

Please explain? Provide a few reasoned thoughts?

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[zetile]

BTW there is no army in CR since 1948.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[thetejon]

No problem. It really is a great country - I have a Costa Rican friend, and I've visited twice with him and once with my girlfriend (Just got home last Wednesday, actually). It makes me a little sad to see things like this happening there, because I don't think this benefits the country in the long run.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[erki]

a literacy rate very close to that of the U.S.

So what you're saying is that the US has a literacy rate very close to that of Costa Rica :D

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[Nate B.]

Heh, who needs an army when big brother USA is around to defend the hemisphere? Just think of it as a hidden foreign aid cost. Or, from Costa Rica's point of view, a no cost asset on the national balance sheet.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[PsiPsiStar]

It's probably one of the least corrupt countries in Central America

Which is like being the least dead person in the cemetary.

Of course, I haven't been there in about 7-8 years so maybe things have changed.

Awsome vacation place, though, VoIP or no.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[Zachary Kessin]

Not Costa Rica, they don't have one. There was a coup in '48 and after some chaos, the folks on top decided that having an army was in their case doing more harm then good.

A very good friend of mine did her PhD on Costa Rica, so I've heard a bit about it over the years.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[mindstrm]

I can appreciate where you are going with that, but as someone who has lived in Costa Rica for several years, and had to deal with all of it's communication monpolies and other government services, this is completely teh wrong way to look at it.

That's NOT the reason they want to do it. The national phone company monopoly has been doing badly for years, they employee too many people, are a national make-work project, and are on the verge of being privatized. This is just one more death-cry from a dying company that NEEDS to die.

I'm not against government-run communication services, when it serves a need... but at the moment, there is so much competition waiting to move into the country, it's not funny, and before you say "Oh but then prices will go up".. the government woiuld still be free to set the rules. Nobody says privatizing means deregulating.

CR has no military, great tourism, and some greate exports. The reason it's economically bad is mainly due to corruption. The reason there are only a couple hundred thousand new cellular phone lines per year is because of people stuffing their pockets, holding up paperwork until they get paid off. It's not totally corrupt, totally evil corruption, but it's enough to make dealing with the government a real pain in the ass.

There is no reason for the national ISP to offer such crappy, NAT-based, slow cable access. (their dialup is fine).

I don't get how a country should stay in the stone-age to keep profits up. This won't make a hair of difference to profits.. those companies who use VOIP now will continue to use it, covertly, and those people at home will continue to use it at home.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[VC]

Costa Rica doesnt have an army.

CIA fact book

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[rune.w]

Just for your info, Costa Rica is one of the few countries in the world that does not have a National Army. I've been there and it is a beautiful place, but corruption is rampant, to the point that a couple of former presidents have been arrested recently on corruption charges.

Re:Maybe the real reason?

[JimBobJoe]

. It is true that they are poor compared to many nations and may have some slightly unorthodox ways of making money (For example, they charge a $26 exit tax when tourists leave the country

The tax itself is not unorthodox...it's just the implementation that's rudely stupid. Other countries just have similar taxes rolled into price of the airline ticket.

I suspect that the reason they haven't done something similar is because there is a different pricing tier based on nationality...but it's something that I believe needs to be looked at someday.

simpler solution

[spectrokid]

if they have a monopoly, why not just block it at the first router?

Re:simpler solution

[theparanoidcynic]

Because smart people will change the ports around, or shove it through an SSH tullel or some such. Any technical block short of physically puling the plug will be circumvented in days at most.

Belarus

[totierne]

I think someone was up on charges in Belarus, I think they got fined, maybe I should search slashdot for a reference...

http://www.boingboing.net/2004/10/19/belarus_bus ts _americ.html

Good idea

[jbb999]

They should also make it a crime to talk to people without using a phone at all. After all you're just bypassing the phone companies systems by doing so which clearly should be a crime.

Re:Good idea

[eric_brissette]

With the number of people I see constantly yapping on cell phones in cars, grocery stores, the mall, restaurants, etc, I've come to the conclusion that people in the US have already willingly do this.

Hell, in the morning on the weekend, my roomate calls me from his bedroom to see what I want to do for breakfast.

Re:Good idea

[the-build-chicken]

...no so funny when you realise that they tried to make it illegal to collect rain water in Bolivia as it was bypassing the water company (Bechtel).

Costa Rica?

[Anonymous Coward]

t would be a shame if this sets a precedent of setting legistlation

Because when other nations want to know what to do on a particular subject, they ALWAYS look to Costa Rica for advice.

Re:Costa Rica?

[AndroidCat]

They're not capable of setting a global economic precedent except for maybe the price of coffee.

Nope. Right now there's a world-wide glut of coffee and the price coffee end-growers are getting for their crop is rock-bottom. But you knew that from the way the price of your Grandé has plunged at Starbucks ... right?

Re:Costa Rica?

[hey]

No doubt you are American -- you don't say it... but reading between the lines you seem to be saying only the USA can set precedents... or matters. A dictionary defination of precedent is:

"something done or said that may serve as an example"

Why can this not serve as an example for other countries?

Re:Costa Rica?

[AceCaseOR]

Actually, the price for my cup of coffee at my preferred coffee shop for a 16 oz. cup has gone up from $2.75 to $3.00 (but then again, as it's a mocha, that could just be the cost of chocolate).

But you do know that Starbucks pays farmers more for their coffee than Nestle does, right?

Where do you draw the line?

[FalconZero]

• What about if I record myself, and post it to the net, then someone downloads it, thats (literally)my VOICE over IP. Will they make that Illegal?
• How about if I write some text and put a Text to Speech engine on my site with my voice loaded into the engine? Will they make that Illegal?
• What about if Costa Rica telcos want to relay their voice calls internally over IP (at any point in the pathway) Will they make that Illegal?

Maybe next they'll make all paketized transfer of voice data illegal? - BYE BYE GPRS. This is what happens when people make laws without consulting unbiased (or unbiased on average) techinal people.

Re:Where do you draw the line?

[Politburo]

In keeping with tradition I did not RTFA. However, the article summary states "internet based phone calls," so I think your ludicrous situations where you looked at several literal, but unused, meanings of "voice over ip" are irrelevant. This is obviously a power grab by whatever telco companies/monopoly exists in Costa Rica. I'm not at all sure how you jumped to making "all packetized transfer of voice data illegal - BYE BYE GPRS."

Furthermore, there is no such thing as unbiased. I believe that the 'unbiased technical people' you would have liked to have been consulted would actually have been biased towards unregulated VoIP. Just because you agree with them doesn't mean that they're unbiased.

Re:Where do you draw the line?

[Captain Splendid]

Agreed. Many 3rd world countries with telco monopolies are pushing to stamp out VOIP by whatever means possible to protect their inflated prices.

A company I've done some consulting for has already rolled out VOIP solutions to quite a few businesses in __________, with contracts ready to close on a dozen others. Even with this kind of penetration, they are striving to keep as low a profile as possible due to the very shaky status of VOIP there.

Re:Where do you draw the line?

[RmanB17499]

"Not in Costa Rica, you don't"

Re:Where do you draw the line?

[petecarlson]

Behind that telco you will find the central government which has granted the telco a monopoly. Behing that government you will find links to the Clinton administration, the Bush administrations, and many previous administrations...

Re:Where do you draw the line?

[Shakrai]

Furthermore, there is no such thing as unbiased. I believe that the 'unbiased technical people' you would have liked to have been consulted would actually have been biased towards unregulated VoIP.

Which of course is what nobody around here cares to point out. Every story I have read about VoIP has been about how evil the telco's are and how evil the states or FCC are for mandating certain things (such as E-911).

Now of course I'm not advocating that we outlaw VoIP. It seems to be the telephone solution of the future. But in response to all of the comments about regulation killing technology and evil teleco companies: Why is it so evil that we hold newer technologies to the same standard as the old? Why shouldn't my cell phone/VoIP provider be required to maintain the same level of uptime that Verizon does on my landline (which happens to cost about $30 less a month)? Why shouldn't my cell phone/VoIP provider be regulated by the New York State Public Service Commission like every other life essential utility is? Why is my cell phone provider allowed to ask for an outrageous deposit ($1,000 from a friend of mine) because of lousy credit while Verizon land-line (by law) is only allowed to require two-months of local service charges as a deposit?

Just because a technology is new/promising or even totally better doesn't mean we have to accept a lower level of service or not hold it to the same standards/safeguards that we've held everybody else to for the last 50 years.

Re:Where do you draw the line?

[Darby]

The idea that everything is Bush's fault got old just a little before the election.

Yes, but the far more ridiculous idea that nothing is his fault got old long before that.

Re:Where do you draw the line?

[Marvelicious]

You're right, why go grasping at straws like this when there are so many obvious things that really are his fault! ...Back on topic...
I'm with Shakrai though. I've noticed a pattern around here with people closing their minds to facts because they like an idea. Like the prevailing "its-open-source-it-has-to-be-better" attitude. This isn't intended to be flamebait... I use open source programs whenever they do the job better (which they often do), and when VoIP is as convenient to use as everything else, I'll be there too, but I'm not the guy to waste time and money just to be ahead of the curve.

Re:Where do you draw the line?

[BobPaul]

Just because you agree with them doesn't mean that they're unbiased

I don't know.. it's in the Slashdot dictionary, man

unbiased also unbiassed adj. - of an opinion that is agreeable with one's own

Egypt did it first

[Chris Kamel]

Actually I'm very ashamed to say that if there's one thing we've led the world in, it is this one. It is currently illegal to provide VoIP services, because the telephone company is government owned and they make loads of money off international phone calls. Heard rumours that this may change sometime in the future though...

About Costa Rica

[qwasty]

OK, everyone seems to have some wrong ideas about what kind of country Costa Rica is, so here's a little info from someone who's actually lived there.

CR is not communist, or poverty stricken. It is in fact the most stable and economically successful latin american country, yes, it beats Mexico and Brazil as well.

Most Costa Ricans have cellphones, and DSL internet access either at home, a library, or in the neighborhood internet cafe.

The country is democratic, and very pro-technology. Many US technology companies have moved there because of the pro-technology/pro-capitalism attitude of the government.

The economy is very efficient, and it runs an American-style government on only a 13% tax base. What this means for the individuals who live there is that instead of two people in a family working 50+ hours a week to make a living, one person in a Costa Rican can make a living.

Most Costa Ricans make about $12 per day. Doesn't sound like a lot, but since the public transportation is well designed, no one needs cars. Cars are still a status symbol, however, just like everywhere else. Costa Ricans can afford (with some saving) a car, a house, a cellphone, DSL at home, a vacation to the USA, and pretty much everything else that most people think of as common in a first world country, all on $12 per day.

The country became a first world country only during the last 10 years, and although it's doing amazingly well, the job market is still catching up to the population size, especially in rural areas. The cities are where the jobs are. And most of the business owners are foreign, americans and europeans. More europeans than americans since americans for some reason don't understand what's going on around them.

Americans go to Costa Rica mostly for prostitution, so the people they encounter like to encourage their notions so that it makes the Americans feel superior, and looser with their money.

CR's economy is the fastest growing one in the america's. No small business owner I met had been in the country for more than 5 years, and every one of them had become millionaires (USD) in that time with their restaurants, hostels, construction companies, computer companies, etc.

Things have changed a bit since I've been there, but instead of imagining marxist rebels with AK-47's, imagine people in business suits with laptops and briefcases.

Any other questions, just ask.

Re:About Costa Rica

[prdallan]

... , yes, it beats Mexico and Brazil as well

Sorry, but I don't buy that. Now, really, could you post some data to support such claims?

Mexico and Brazil may have lots of social problems - and maybe in this aspect it could be possible that Costa Rica had some better indexes. But as far as I have heard, it does not get even close when talking about GDP, market size, level of industrialization, native technology, universities, scientific work, just to name a few...

Re:About Costa Rica

[ndrtkr]

Are you talking about the same "Costa Rica" ? The one where I live?

I wouldn't say CR is the most stable and economically successful latin american country...

That's just hilarious. Maybe central american country; and still, that's not something we should feel proud of.

Don't confuse the general situation of the country with the way people like to live. Sadly, we have adopted the american way of buy now, pay forever... But that doesn't mean everyone is wealthy...

And to say something about the topic, what else can you expect from a government controlled company that owns the monopoly on telecommunications and technology? It is true that a lot of people have cellphones, but that's a status symbol, you should be here to see the AWFUL service we get, both on TDMA and GSM.

Let alone talking about Costa Rica being pro-technology, that's just NOT true; only 6 months ago DLS started to be accessible and still the service is just below average.

I read this news on local newspaper a few days ago and I just laughed. Ignorance is a bliss.

Re:About Costa Rica

[thetejon]

Okay, I agree with most of what you said, but do most Americans really go there for prostitution? What about the beaches and cloud forests, the laid back atmosphere, friendly locals, low cost of living? If Americans think that the only thing worthwhile in Costa Rica is prostitutes, there are some travel agents that need to be fired.

Re:About Costa Rica

[cybersaga]

runs an American-style government

This is the only place I disagree with you. Costa Rica is hardly like the States, nor even supports it. When Bush went on about the Coalition of the Willing, Costa Rica asked that their name be removed. Costa Rica has no army. They concentrate on making their own country better without meddling in the affairs of other countries.

The article states that the ICE is a monopoly, but that's how they keep things in check. In English, the ICE is the Costa Rican Institute of Electricity. They handle the electricity and telecommunications for the entire country.
There is also only one, yes one, insurance company for every kind of insurance. Surely they have more examples too. Each are government regulated and do not rip people off.

It is true though that most business owners are European or American. This is because no foreigners are allowed to work unless they open their own business. This is because, as was mentioned, there are still not enough jobs for the existing population, and they don't need warmth seeking westerners taking their jobs.

I suspect this law will not be passed. Costa Ricans are smarter than that.

Re:About Costa Rica

[Politburo]

The country became a first world country only during the last 10 years

That's odd. The Cold War has been over for 10+ years.

First, Second and Third world designations are NOT economic designations! They were used during the Cold War to describe the various alliances and blocs. The "First World" was the US/Western Europe and anyone allied with them. The "Second World" was USSR/East Europe and sometimes China. The "Third World" was everyone else. Since most poorer nations had their own problems to worry about, they did not get involved in the Cold War and were designated Third World countries. This led to the incorrect assumption that Third World = poor, First World = rich, and somewhere along the way Second World just got dropped.

Re:About Costa Rica

[amontiel]

This is such an ignorant comment. I AM A COSTA RICAN citizen, and I worked there for Acer and Intel before moving to Europe. I know about the state of technological penetration in the country and what qwasty says here is just a bunch of uninformed facts. DSL at home??? Tell that to ALL of my friends there who have been trying for years to even get a decent ISDN connection at home. DSL is not even available to the general public yet. The so called "Advanced Internet" project has been delayed for 3 years now and it is not until last week, that the Costa Rican Institute of Electricity (ICE in Spanish) finished installing the routers to start selling DSL access at prices that are prohibitive to the general population. They will start offering a 128/64 Kbps line for $28/month and YES that is a 128/64Kbps line for that price. The Costa Rica you describe does not sound like the same place where I was born and raised and where I lived for 30 years of my life and which I visited again just recently. Efficient economy and public transportation? REALLY? Please tell me where did you travel in the country so I can move there. I won't even reply to the business ownership stupidity or to the prostitution bit. Now, about the reason for this move by the ICE. The only reason behind this is that Costa Rican telecommunications are a state monopoly (yes, a la MS) and what the ICE is trying to do is either define VoIP as a value-added service and regulate it or have it declared illegal. If you are going to post half-assed information, at least try to be objective about it. For those who can read Spanish, here is an article from La Nacion Costa Rica's largest newspaper, describing the situation. Basically, all they are afraid of is losing the profit from international phone calls, and because all telecommunications use public infrastructure, they would like to be able to regulate it or control it completely. Anyway, please do some research or reading before you post such crap. Better yet, take a plane and go to Costa Rica for real. It might enlighten you a bit.

Re:About Costa Rica

[qwasty]

I'm not ignorant, but I'm not costa rican either, so maybe I seem ignorant to you, who is a costa rican...

When I had DSL in CR, I got it from Racsa in San Jose, the capital city. It's not fast DSL, but DSL it is. I had a friend of mine get DSL in her home so she could better communicate with other international parts of our company, and it seemed that Racsa is more inclined to get things done if you mention it's for business. The price was high by costa rican standards, but not unaffordable by individuals. Now, she usually gets her internet access from cafe's, not at home. Internet access is easily available to anyone in San Jose, if not at home, then at a cafe.

Maybe my definition of efficient public transportation is different from most people's. It's convenient, cheap, and gets you where you want to go fast. In the USA, it's expensive (comparatively speaking), only serves some areas, and it's SLOW, with wait times at some bus stops measured in hours.

When I say the economy is efficient, I compare my American lifestyle and it's cost, with a costa rican lifestyle and it's cost. The lifestyles aren't that different in the cities, but the Costa Ricans can do it on $12 per day, in a 40 hour work week. And their government only costs them 13% (oversimplification, but that's the gist of it).

If you disagree with the business ownership bit, and the prostitution bit, well fine. I'm only repeating my experiences (yes, actually in Costa Rica), I'm sure yours are different. One thing I did notice, that I didn't mention, is that Costa Ricans deeply resent the social problems foreigners have brought to Costa Rica. Very few Costa Ricans are at the top of CR's business boom, like so many foreigners are. They typically end up pushing around a mop instead. I'd be resentful too. Not saying you are, but it sounds like it.

Re:About Costa Rica

[dahlek]

I've never lived there, but according to the CIA World Fact Book and WikiPedia - if you want to move to Central America, Costa Rica is probably the best candidate.

My sister was there recently for a college Spanish project - she stayed with an avarage family. Some aspects were still a bit primative, yes, they had no hot water...then again, it's much closer to the equator - they did have electricity, phone service, and a dvd-player for their tv.

This wasn't a city, either. It was a small town with no public transportation. The family she stayed with owned no car, but their grown son did. She described a friendly and almost idealic little town, where everything is in walking distance...

She could picture herself living there at some point she said.

Re:About Costa Rica

[DarkVader]

Which, if you really think about it, is no longer incorrect today, as it is the only usage of the terms.

After all, even the page you referenced says "There is no official definition of the first, second, and the third world."

So, third world is effectively now an economic designation, and no longer has anything to do with the cold war.

Re:About Costa Rica

[pacoworld]

I live in Puebla , Mexico and I can tell you that there`s a lot of people from Costa Rica who want to become a resident here in Mexico, why?? I have no idea!!! You forgot to say that costa rica don`t have an army!!

Re:About Costa Rica

[Politburo]

So, third world is effectively now an economic designation, and no longer has anything to do with the cold war.

Yes, but the original post said (paraphrased) "Costa Rica has only been a first world country for 10 years". I guess my problem isn't so much that Third world = poor to most people, but that people have taken the First/Second/Third trichotomy (is that a word?) and forced a rich/poor dichotomy on top of it. If first = rich and third = poor.. where did second go? It just doesn't make sense, and really, it's stupid PC crap. If we all have in our heads that third world = poor, just fucking say poor.

Re:About Costa Rica

[wolfie_cr]

"Costa Ricans are smarter than that." I can only hope that you are right (not likely) At least......when the USA Senate has a bill regarding making money they pass it quickly Here .........we drag everything forever.....missing huge opportunities to make $ and give everyone a piece of the cake, instead we do nothing and everyone (including my "beloved" unions) stay poor (Except for their leaders who typically are always in meetings and have huge benefits)

Re:About Costa Rica

[lunax]

AS a quick addition to this ( also having grown up in CR) The local telecom anounced last week that it will offer a new service that includes VoIP, at least thats what my mom explained to me since she still lives there. This has been one of the things that law makers are currently dealing with and the article isn't up to date with recent decisions. They admit that outlawing VoIP would be like the post office having email outlawed. So it becomes a matter of giving people what they are entitled to while keeping the telecom in the loop and that can be like balancing on a razor blade.
Another problem is that they want to distinguish between legitimate use (someone who pays for internet service and calls from home) and what they call fraudulent use. There are places that will sell international calls at lower rates in large volumes. That is they really want to stop. 1 in 5 calls made from CR to the US are VoIP based.

Re:About Costa Rica

[extra the woos]

Yeah, don't feel bad. DSL in any rural area in the US (or cable) or whatever is unlikely as hell. (Unless you live in alaska like I do fortunately, and every little town in southeast has dsl and cable lol, the rest of the states aren't like that tho).

Cell phone coverage in the US is good... IN THE CITIES.... Otherwise it's a crapshoot. 'Course, you can get a big antenna/amp for your car and get great reception just about anywhere when you are traveling...

Just saying, broadband in the US has a longggg way to go before it is everywhere too.

Re:About Costa Rica

[amontiel]

I simply cannot believe that a self-proclaimed "non-ignorant" would willingly make these statements and claims. Either you are trolling or having fun here, I don't know which. Racsa DOES NOT offer DSL yet to the general public. They ran, or wanted to run, a pilot project a while back to test it. I know this because a relative of mine works at ICE and told me this. The article from La Nacion says, at the bottom of the page that: "The exminister of Science and Technology (2000-2002) Guy de Theramond, one of the main pioneers (of the Advanced Internet Project) said yesterday that he is pleased with the work done at the heart of the network and that 'we only have to wait for DSL'". So I really do not know how you managed to get it from RACSA when they are still waiting for it. What you may be talking about is cable access provided by Amnet, which is a totally different thing. Maybe you got your facts wrong there. About your economic facts, $12 a day equals $240 a month which, according to today's exchange rate is 111825,60 Costa Rican colones, not counting social security deductions and the like. I find it hard to believe that people can "make" it back home with that, but then again, it depends on what you define by "making" it. It seems to me from your original message, that making it for you means affording vacations to the US, buying a home and a car and other similar luxuries. I find it extremely hard to believe that; given for example that my brother who is an attorney and makes much more than $12/day has to think twice about it before paying for things you claim people do there on a regular basis, such as taking vacations to the US, or buying cars or carrying laptops and cellphones. I actually met people who carried toy cellphones just to look as if they had one, but I disgress here.... I know of people who make over 1 million Costa Rican colones a month (roughly $3000) and only go with their families to the US once or at most twice a year. Now talk about doing that with only $240 a month. I do not resent your comments, I just find it annoying that you post factoids and generalize them to apply them to a reality which is alien to you, but then again, that is a typical american attitude. Can't blame you for that. Oh, and about the mopping thing, I've seen that done to american citizens in the US as well by their fellow americans, so I do not know who should be more resentful.

Re:About Costa Rica

[ntilde_cr]

wow!, that doesn't sound like the costa rica I live in. I don't think a couple can live out of the salary of one person. And I certainly don't think the economy is doing that great... I don't think ANY costa rican does. I don't think it's that easy or cheap to have cable internet at home. I couldn't even get it where I live even if I had the money... simply becasue all projects related to technology are very slow in the way they develop. The project for cable internet to be available to most of the population is more than 2 years behind schedule. anyway, it's just that your post seemed like you where talking about a country I've never seen before.

Re:About Costa Rica

[Garabito]

OK, For /.ers to get an idea of how "AWFUL" the service is, look at these facts:

ICE is the only phone and cellular service provider. Anyway, rates are:

local call (to any landline in the country):
Bussines hours: US$0.0045 / minute
Rest of the time:US$0.009 / minute

Cellular call: (from cell phone to any phone or from landline to a cell phone anywhere in the country)
Bussines hours: US$0.073 / minute
Rest of the time:US$0.05 / minute

Price per SMS message: US$0.0033
Unlimited GPRS for free if you have a GSM line (To be fair, this service sucks, but you don't pay for it anyway)

Cell coverage for TDMA is decent. GSM is mediocre, mostly inside buildings because the system only works at 1800 MHz.

A goverment-runned monopoly has its pros and cons. Most families have a phone line at home, even if they are poor. Phone and cell rates are very low and affordable to the general population; but some people have to wait months (even years) to get a phone line at home. I had to wait 2 years for my ADSL service (It's expensive compared to other countries, but cheaper than cable modem) but the service is very reliable.

What I like about the state owned company is that is a company that is there just to give the service, not to make profits. Services like long-distance subsidize the universal service. But it has the typical problems of the public sector, like a big fat burocracy, and strong worker unions that back lazy employees. (I'm not against unions nor I'm saying that all workers are lazy, but managers can't fire lazy employees because of the influnce of the union)

Re:About Costa Rica

[qwasty]

A round trip from San Jose, Costa Rica (SJO) to Dallas, Texas, USA (DFW) starts at $308 according to http://www.travelocity.com/. That's not very expensive, even with Costa Rican wages. Also, here's Racsa's website, they DO offer internet access, and I HAVE used DSL through them. http://www.racsa.co.cr/ - It says they partner with Amnet to offer cable access, as you already mentioned.

Re:About Costa Rica

[PingPongBoy]

No small business owner I met had been in the country for more than 5 years, and every one of them had become millionaires (USD) in that time with their restaurants, hostels, construction companies, computer companies, etc.

5 * 365 * 12 = 21900

Oh. Hi. I was just doing some math there. Did you know that 5 multiplied by 365 multiplied by 12 is 21900?

I never studied accounting but somehow I figure that if any business owner could easily earn millions of US dollars couldn't they pay people $12/hour?

Is Costa Rica supposed to be first world? The first world is who makes the business people there rich since the local population couldn't really do that. The answer, then, is the first world cannot afford to pay Costa Ricans $12 per hour. Is there some kind of reduction to the absurd when Costa Rica is laballed "first world"?

Re:About Costa Rica

[PingPongBoy]

Folk wisdom time. Might makes right and birds of a feather flock together.

It's not surprising that the rich countries would tend to look askance at the Godless and unwashed communists, as well as trade heavily with each other. The upshot - classify by economic status or by political ideals if you want but you still end up with the same classes. What makes me wonder is whether countries with potentially self destablizing governments can really prosper.

So what now? Do we forget about the thinking of the Cold War and use the terminology Nth World to refer to economics? Or better yet, do we remember not to trust commies? There is a semblance of war in the world, but now along the lines of terrorism. Now what are the members of Nth World?

Re:About Costa Rica

[qwasty]

Oh. Hi. I was just doing some math there. Did you know that 5 multiplied by 365 multiplied by 12 is 21900?

You just calculated how much a business pays in wages to a typical costa rican employee if they worked 7 days a week, for 5 years. I don't follow the rest of what you're saying, or how it's connected to your $21900 figure. Clarify?

The first world is who makes the business people there rich since the local population couldn't really do that.

Right. Costa Rica's economy is dependent on tourism, for now.

The answer, then, is the first world cannot afford to pay Costa Ricans $12 per hour.

Where'd you come up with that? If that's the answer, what was the question?

I think you're questioning whether $12 a day in wages is enough to be considered first world. Well, I lived on $12 a day while I was there, and let me tell you, life was good compared to what I'm used to in the USA. My "rent" was $8 per day, which included utilities, and DSL internet access, and I spent $2 a day eating out at local cafe's, and the last $2 I spent on bus fare. Everything I just described is exactly the same as my simple USA-lifestyle, except in the USA, I can't afford to eat out every day.

So, to sum up, I made a typical wage of $12 a day in Costa Rica, and lived slightly better than I did in the USA when I made $100 per day. When I came home to live in the USA again, it didn't feel like the USA is as "first world" as I thought it was when I left.

Re:About Costa Rica

[TheSync]

My family in El Salvador all have DSL (in the area of San Salvador). Is Costa Rica really so far behind?

Re:About Costa Rica

[lgw]

Oddly enough, the rent for my first apartment (in Houston, TX) was about $8 a day. You can't live well on $100/day in America? Heck, I live quite comfortably spending less than that today, and I eat out every day.

Some places in America are mind-bogglingly expensive.

Re:About Costa Rica

[Ninja Programmer]

Let me preface this by saying I was recently on a 3-week vacation in Costa Rica where I got to see a lot of the country.

Most Costa Ricans have cellphones, and DSL internet access either at home, a library, or in the neighborhood internet cafe.

You are smoking crack. I saw very few cellphones in this country -- even in San Jose (the most metropolitain city I visited). Internet in the home is way over the pay scale of most Costa Ricans. In San Jose, broadband does exist, but you pay for it. In most other cities, its basically at dial-up speeds, and internet cafes are the only way anyone could afford to access the internet at all.

The economy is very efficient, and it runs an American-style government on only a 13% tax base. What this means for the individuals who live there is that instead of two people in a family working 50+ hours a week to make a living, one person in a Costa Rican can make a living.

I didn't get a real sense for the domestic working schedules of people in Costa Rica, but in San Jose, we were renting a room from a cottage run exclusively by women. The economy in Costa Rica is majorly subsidized by Intel which has a very large plant down there, and the whole "Eco-tourism" craze. Us stupid foreigners pay $2000 a pop to go watch common every day animals climb up what to us look like exotic palm trees and what they consider house plants. Other than that, Del Monte and Dole have basically split the country into halves and are selling fruits from the plentiful fertile soil that Costa Rica has. Oh yeah, and they sell some coffee there too.

Most Costa Ricans make about $12 per day.

Uhh ... this varies quite a *lot*. There's no way in hell people in San Jose only make $12 a day. Its less than americans, but it aint no $12. Cab/Bus rides, food, trinkets, hotels, etc -- in San Jose, they are probably at about 50% of american salaries.

In other inland cities like MonteVerde, of course, things are very different and you very well might be correct. We were in a really nice hotel that cost us like $15 per person.

But the Costal cities which are so heavily subsidized by tourism, these guys are not living on the cheap; that's for sure (these are $100 rooms, $20 meals, etc).

Doesn't sound like a lot, but since the public transportation is well designed, no one needs cars.

This is nonsense. In San Jose, people had cars just as much as americans do -- and the jaywalking ettiquette is quite different. :) In other cities this varied, but the only real limiting factor in car ownership, that I noticed, was whether or not the city had paved roads.

a vacation to the USA,

Perhaps for the more well to do Costa Ricans, but I don't see what possible motivation any Costa Rican would have for visiting the US. We've got crappy food, useless beaches, the most horrendously egotistical tourist attractions, and we wouldn't even *try* to speak spanish to give them directions.

Americans go to Costa Rica mostly for prostitution, so the people they encounter like to encourage their notions so that it makes the Americans feel superior, and looser with their money.

Uhh ... not *THIS* american! Costa Rica is a major tourist country even without the "eco-tourism". They've got beaches on BOTH oceans. Some are very suitable great surfing. The number of tours you can go to are practically uncountable -- the amount of wildlife, both plant and animals I saw in such a short amount of time was probably more than I've ever seen in my life. In an open air restaurant, we saw a sloth climbing up a tree that wasn't even part of any tour!

There was a warning at the airport about child prostitution, but that's all I noticed. There certainly didn't seem to be a lot of open rampant prostitution, but maybe we just didn't go to the right places.

Dude, I think your view of Costa Rica is extremely skewed. This is obvious from the fact that you don't even recognize just how varied the country is.

true enough, but

[ecalkin]

i live in kentucky. more than a fair amount of drinking alcohol is fermented, brewed, and/or distilled here.

eric

C'mon people

[ptrangerv8]

get it together!!!

This is ridiculous (sp)... But, this is why (at least here in the US) there are anti-trust laws - to offer a *hope* of a choice...Currently, I'm in Honduras w/ the Air Force, and it costs us out the ass every time we make simple phone call out off base - something to the tune of $.60USD a minute... All because tele[hones are rare around here or something...

Point is, competition is GOOD... after RTFA, all that I can see is the state backed company doesn't want to lose their precious sole income source... This is gonna be bad, but it sounds almost as bad as the RIAA and their ilk not wanting to deal with electronic music purchasing, so they seek to outlaw it in ALL forms....

sheesh

Ok, I'll shutup now

Re:C'mon people

[Colonel Cholling]

But, this is why (at least here in the US) there are anti-trust laws - to offer a *hope* of a choice...

Yes, but how would anti-trust laws help you against a state-owned communications monopoly?

Already the case here.

[Minupla]

In Antigua it's already illegal. Cable and Wireless pushed through a law making it illegal. When you sign up for ISP service, you have to agree not to do it, along with the usual AUP.

Min

Re:Already the case here.

[Jason H. Smith]

Same situation in Thailand.

Horray for capitalism!

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

...And those bloody socialists keep trying to tell us that capitalism doesn't lead to innovation!

Re:Horray for capitalism!

[skadus]

Considering as how it's a state-run telecom, I don't really see where your sarcasm is going. :p

I mean, isn't a state-run anything more socialist than capitalist, despite the fact that it's still working for money?

Re:Horray for capitalism!

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Yeah, sorta. But they're still there to make money, and they're trying to eliminate the competition. So it's still capitalistic ideas. Hell, these days, in some countries there isn't the much difference between a private enterprise and a state enterprise anyway, with all the under-the-table deals and such.

BTW. A state isn't inherently capitalistic or socialistic.

Re:Horray for capitalism!

[syrinx]

As someone else pointed out, it's state-run.

Also, using the government to write laws to protect your business is pretty much the antithesis of capitalism. It might be "corporatism", if that's even a real thing, but it's sure as hell not capitalist.

Basically: your eyes are brown.

Re:Horray for capitalism!

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Ha. You have a poor understanding of politics.

Eliminating competition by outlawing it, is statism, not socialism. And capitalists will obviously use the state to their benefit if they can, due to the competitive nature of capitalism. Capitalism will only innovate when it is the easiest way to compete. There is nothing about capitalism that makes it an inherently innovative system.

The proof of this should be quite obvious if you look at the US; laws such as the DMCA, and all the things going on with the RIAA etc.

I think the Bahamas has them beat!

[zotz]

I think we have them beat. Indications are that VoIP is already illegal here in the Bahamas.

If you care to poke around the The Public Utilities Commission web site you can check here:

http://www.pucbahamas.gov.bs/index.php

Mind you, I am not certain of what is meant by VoIP in the minds of the authorities, I take it they mean IP telephony, but who knows? Voice chat? Audio streaming? Video Streaming?

There was something in the local paper(s) a while back warning against it and mentioning hugh fines and jail time iirc.

If anyone knows the low down and would like to enlighten us, please do so.

all the best,

drew

Hopefully not a problem.

[Sierpinski]

If we pattern any sigificant amount of our laws after Costa Rica, I think VoIP will be the least of our problems. Hopefully the old folks home (aka Congress) will know better than to take that kind of precedent in mind.

Some countries allready have people in jail.

[luvirini]

There was a reasonably well published case in the United Arab Emirates where the owners of a VOIP company were thrown in jail. Though there does not seem to be anything against using such, but selling the services was too much for the state monopoly.

Just Politics

[blueZhift]

There's probably nothing to get excited about here. The Costa Ricans aren't any stupider than anyone else in the world. The local phone monopoly just wants to get some attention, which will set the stage for whatever deal finally comes out of the governing process. Very likely VoIP won't be criminalized in Costa Rica. It will probably have fees attached to it. The only question will be how much these fees are likely to be. I would guess they will be high enough to protect the phone monopoly. Just the usual politics...

When VOIP is illegal

[Urger]

When VOIP is illegal only crimnals will have VOIP

Costa Rica?

[sdo1]

It would be a shame if this sets a precedent

It's Costa Rica for crying out loud. They're not capable of setting a global economic precedent except for maybe the price of coffee.

-S

And in the US, it's municipal Wi-Fi

[Silwenae]

The only difference between this and what's going on in the US, is in this case, it's a state-controlled monopoly and in the US it's the few remaining Baby Bells doing the same with trying to ban municipal wi-fi.

Unfortunately, it's all about the telecom industry, both in the US, and abroad, trying to consolidate power, and shut out open access, whether it's data or voice.

Re:And in the US, it's municipal Wi-Fi

[garcia]

Unfortunately, it's all about the telecom industry, both in the US, and abroad, trying to consolidate power, and shut out open access, whether it's data or voice.

And what happens when you have municipal wifi and they ban it (along with a lot of other stuff) because it's not "community friendly" or it wastes too much bandwith?

Re:And in the US, it's municipal Wi-Fi

[humanerror]

You do realize that Puerto Rico is a United States possession, yes? When you're talking about State-controlled monopolies there, you're talking about USA-controlled monopolies.

Re:And in the US, it's municipal Wi-Fi

[humanerror]

Heh.... had PR on the brain.... bad reference. Me friend just moved to Puerto Rico, like yesterday... crossed wires there. Oops.

Re:And in the US, it's municipal Wi-Fi

[KlomDark]

Oops, wrong Rico/Rica...

Don't worry - I was thinking the same at first "HTF is a US Territory going to ban VOIP??"

They're taking a cue from the RIAA perhaps?

[TheBrakShow]

Any country that truly values freedom should find the thought of "criminalizing" any form of communication like this "criminal" in itself. This goes for VOIP, file-sharing, and the Internet in general.

Anyone looking at premium VoIP?

[tod_miller]

Numbers you can get charged to call? For voice services?

Many *cough* numbers in some magazines terminate in S.American countries... If everyone gets used to 'net based comms, free data exchange etc, how will these sex lines survive?

At least ISP support lines would still work ;-) [unless we have a redundant network layer for VoIP...]

I have the word VoIP... just call it streaming audio.

ok.

Not only GPRS

[freqmod]

More traditional GSM telephones are digital too. (this is one of the reasons that it is possible to send text messages between these phones)

Re:Not only GPRS

[Breakfast Pants]

digital != packet based. GSM is circuit switched. GPRS is run over GSM however.

Advantages of VoIP?

[Therlin]

Feel free to label this as Off Topic but I have a question.

As a self-proclaimed geek, I've totally missed on the VoIP bandwagon. Other than the fact that VoIP is currently cheaper, what are the advantages for customers who choose VoIP vs. POTS.

I've thought about getting it, but just for the geekyness factor of it all and to save a few bucks but I wonder if I'm just missing something.

Re:Advantages of VoIP?

[conteXXt]

VoIP is probably best for people with friends and relatives that live out of town.

Just my guess

I am in the same boat, have not had any need for it. Unless I just decide to start calling up random people of foreign lands to chat.

hey?! now that I mention it....gotta go do some research.

Re:Advantages of VoIP?

[Zachary Kessin]

There are a few, the first is that it is often cheaper. For me the big bonus is that I have a 646 area code phone number. SO even though I live in Israel my phone number looks like and acts like its in New York. So you can call me from the USA and canada like its a domestic call.

Re:Advantages of VoIP?

[cybercuzco]

Cheaper long distance if you use it alot (~$25 vs ~$70)
Number portability (just pick up you router and move it)
e-mail voicemail (my voicemail messages are emailed to me)

Costa Rica has Internet back?

[AndroidCat]

A few years ago, they allowed lots of spammers to off-shore there. Since all their Internet access is via the national monopoly, it wasn't hard to just block them at the router to fix the problem. The problem of the people being spammed, that is. It left the non-spammers in Costa Rica high and dry since there was no reasonable ISP that they could move their business to.

You'd think they'd have learned something from that about monopolies.

Brother-in-law Political System

[iammrjvo]

I've been to Costa Rica four or five times to visit friends. When I was there on my honeymoon fives years back, there were big protests because the government was about to hand the phone system over to the president's brother-in-law - or something like that.

At any rate, the Costa Rican political system tends to be pretty corrupt in the sense that those in power tend to give big favors to their friends in family. I'll bet something like this is going on.

Re:Brother-in-law Political System

[mikeage]

Wow... must be a friendly country. I wouldn't give anything to my brother-in-law...

Re:Brother-in-law Political System

[CoffeeJedi]

yeah! what kind of petty tin-pot bannanna republic government is this! why, here in America people don't have careers in politics or get appointed to cushy jobs just because of who their father is!

oh wait................

Re:Brother-in-law Political System

[KiloByte]

the government was about to hand the phone system over to the president's brother-in-law

We're talking about the phone system in this very article. Do you see any connection...? Hmm...

Re:Brother-in-law Political System

[DAldredge]

Are you talkig About Bush Sr, Gore, Bush Jr. or Kerry?

Re:Brother-in-law Political System

[CoffeeJedi]

Pretty all inclusive really, the biggie of course is Dubya, but this story really reminded me of Michael Powell and the FCC.

Brazil

[rafa.lima]

Here in Brazil we have a satellite ISP called StarOne http://www.starone.com.br/ and by the contract you're not allowed to transmit voice or video.

Not just a crime...

[quarkscat]

but a look at the future. If you are a member
of the WTO and have small/fledgling national
industries to protect from unplanned for (and
unregulated) competition, you make it illegal.

You might say that Costa Rica has adopted the
very same measures that the USA's "**AA" have
implimented in the face of new media distribution
modes, and similar tactics that the big regional
USA phone companies have adopted (with big
government help) to protect them from government/
community WiFi competition.

That being said, it seems a shame that a democracy
with a constiuentcy that has a 98% literacy rate
should find the need to penalize its citizens for
the sake of a corporate (nationalized?) entity.
These are the kinds of tactics that a government
with a much lower literacy rate (65%), and can
influence its citizens with massive propaganda
campaigns would be expected to use - like the USA.

Re:Not just a crime...

[niiler]

There is an interesting confluence of things going on, it seems. Costa Rica has suceeded as a nation largely because it has not privatized many services. Privatization of services in central and south American countries has often led to rampant inflation and in some caused the fall of the middle class in the case of Argentina or led to water shortages as in Bolivia. Contrary to what is preached in the U.S. about government regulation, many people actually seem to benefit from it.

What seems to be happening is that one of the Costa Rican government's cash cows, the internet (and communications, in general) seems to be threatened by this. As such, they are concerned that they won't have the budget to provide the services they currently do. Of course, I have no way of knowing specifically what their budgetary constraints are.

Personally, I think the banning of VoIP would be a bad thing considering the usual ethics of Costa Rica. (For example, they don't maintain a standing army). But I'm going to wait to hear from Willy Smith (hey Willy!), at the Linux Gazette since he lives there and probably has a much more informed opinion than myself.

Re:Not just a crime...

[bluprint]

A minor point, but if you are going to bash private enterprise, and condone public ownership of goods, then the examples you give to demonstrate the failure of private enterprise should at least be examples of private enterprise.

Having a national government gun down people who refuse to buy water is certainly not private enterprise. Both of your examples suck.

In the first link, Greg Palast says: Then you go to what's called market-based pricing. That's the stuff like in California where everything is free market... which isn't even accurate. When California supposedly "deregulated" the energy market, there were tons of regulations surrounding that (too many to go into), including pricing (yes, the State of California set pricing). The only difference between what they had before and after "deregulation" is that some corporations got involved.

Re:Not just a crime...

[Calmiche]

Actually, the parent had a good point. Under pressure from the US government, the Costa Rican's tried to force the ICE (The local government monopoly) to split up a couple of years ago. They wanted to allow foreign investors in to provide telephone service, electricity, etc.. When they tried, the people revolted. But since it's Costa Rica, they just refused to go to work and school and marched through the streets. They blocked off a couple of roads and that was it.

I'm not sure what it's like now, but when I was there, the phone, water and electricity rates were very high in comparison to the adverage income. Long Distance phone service was the worst.

There were alot of people, even 4 years ago, who were using VoIP for longdistance calls. Practically anyone with a computer did so. Now, that isn't nearly as many people as you would think, but it is most of the upper middle class. Or in otherwords, the main people who are making the international calls in the first place.

I'm not really suprised that the Costa Rican government wants a piece of that, but I'd be suprised if they could control it, even if they do get the law passed.

Re:Not just a crime...

[Calmiche]

Grr. Got to remember links..

2000 ICE riots.

Re:Not just a crime...

[niiler]

I provided the link to Palast's site because it gives a short English synopsis of what's going on in Latin America.

Your statement that the only difference between governmental involvement and private enterprise being that some corporations got involved neglects the fact that water prices DID rise in the case of Bolivia and that the root cause WAS the handing of the water utilities over to foreign companies in the name of capitalism. I couldn't find much in English other than Palast's stuff. But if you can read Spanish, you will see the humanitarian effect of handing over the water to Bechtel.

• www.gvom.ch
• www.socialismo-o-barbarie.org
• www.aguabolivia.org
• www.whrnet.org

The blackouts in California can also be traced to deregulation. About.com has a nice summary of the relationship.

Point is that privatization of shared resources has historically resulted in profits to businesses at the expense of the consumer. It's not just a matter of changing hands from governmental owners/regulators to private industry. Part of the mandate of government is to serve the people. This is NOT a mandate of business. If you have been following WTO, and US business models of late, you will note that they all include the ownership of government officials.

Re:Not just a crime...

[PingPongBoy]

Premise 1

The blackouts in California can also be traced to deregulation. About.com has a nice summary of the relationship.

Premise 2

Point is that privatization of shared resources has historically resulted in profits to businesses at the expense of the consumer.


Come to think of it, I don't like overpaying but high prices ought to attract competitive forces to ultimately lower the price. In certain economic sectors, especially utilities, it is not easy to start up a new service. There are so many regulations as well as the need to win customer trust, not to mention the time required to build the physical infrastructure. So in situations like this, the optimal path appears to be aptly described by "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

On the other hand, if consumers were willing to put up with years of outrageous profit taking, better services may emerge. Perhaps the ultimate solution for ordinary folks is to simply move to the place that offers the best standard of living.

Re:Not just a crime...

[bluprint]

Your statement that the only difference between governmental involvement and private enterprise being that some corporations got involved...

I meant that in reference to *how* things were run. In other words, government was still heavily involved (at least in the case of the California "deregulation" and apparently in the case of the Bolivia water issue, at least from the link you posted originally), therfore, it wasn't really "deregulation". I don't disagree (and didn't intend to imply otherwise) that the overall water situation got worse.

The blackouts in California was certainly caused by the thing people (politicians) called deregulation. However, my argument is that in fact it was not degregulation or privatization. The state remained heavily involved in the distribution of energy even after it was supposedly deregulated. Now, I'm not trying to start an argument on how involved government should be in the distribution of resources, or when (should they be directly involved in the distribution of water? cars? twinkies? all resources...), rather, my only point is that people like to point at situations like the California energy crisis as proof that electricity can't be distributed by private, profit-driven companies effectively. In fact, that cannot be used as such proof, when the industry was never really run in a private manner.

So, I'm looking through the about.com link you gave. From that, following the link titled, "California's Deregulation Disaster", there are some interesting tidbits, pointing out at the very least that the energy market was never really privatized. For example, the article mentions the involvement of the California Public Utility Commission, which as far as I can tell, is a public (government) office. If the market was deregulated, why were they involved? Also, this line:

So they proposed the following: Regulation of distribution lines will stay intact. Ok, so the author at least flat out points out a major part of the market will remain "regulated". More evidence: During the time it would take to pay back those bad investments, retail prices would be frozen.. The only way rates are ever frozen, is through government regulation.

It should be noted, the attitude of the author (as he points out at the beggining of the article) is that private corporations were completely at fault, so it's not like this is some anti-government guy writing this article. You kind of have to read between the lines to get more information than is normally communicated in the media.

At the bottom of the second page: Governor Davis is soaking taxpayers to buy power to resell to SoCalEd and PG&E to save them from bankruptcy because their rates are frozen. Now, I don't own a business, but if I did, I would be ecstatic if all of you were to buy my supplies for me (or buy them and sell to me at a discounted rate). Doesn't sound very "private" does it?

Incidentally, I think it's funny how the guy writing this article tries to make Grey Davis out to be some hero (despite the line above, he does elsewhere in the article), but fails to point out the money he took from Enron, as is pointed out in the original about.com page.

My overall impression of the California situation, is that some companies took advantage something you point out at the end of your post, "..ownership of government officials." They made money for sure, and at the expense of taxpayers, and consumers held hostage, but they certainly didn't do so in a "free market", as so many would like to believe.

Vonage over SSH?

[BobPaul]

Is it possible? Obviously you'd have to avoid trying to get a Costa Rica local number, but for someone with relatives in a foreign country, would this be a plausible solution?

Re:Vonage over SSH?

[raju1kabir]

Not easily; Vonage uses UDP.

Re:Vonage over SSH?

[BobPaul]

Vonage uses UDP.

Grr... There probably would have been QOS issues running it over SSH even if it was TCP only...

Route around it.

[Wanderer1]

Time for all you poor folk in oppressive countries, yes, especially you in the USA) to remember the old mantra, "Route around it." Just because something is "illegal" doesn't mean you can't do it. One bit can look very like another.

The Internet was our great hope for freedom and equality and stability, and we knew back in the day that it would challenge governments in ways they would fight. They cannot simultaneously provide general network access and complete control of it. As long as you can place arbitrary patterns of bits into the payload of a plain old IP packet, you'll be able to do whatever you want.

Now go, and fight the terrorists infesting your governments.

Re:Route around it.

[kryten_nl]

I agree, just how is this different from the FCC trying to regulate VOIP (here) when it's combined with the PATRIOT act? Now, that combination isn't likely, but TFA said: "At its most Draconian, the proposal would make Internet telephoning a crime." (emphasis added)

strikes me kinda odd.....

[Meziked]

It seems kind of funny to me that most "communication" companies own the line and equipment that will be used for VOIP. Why would banning it be in their favor? I mean I'm all for preserving MAC address's by not equipping every toaster and microwave on the planet with a NIC but, C'mon VOIP is the future.... why stand in the way? I guess we should all invest in tin cans and kite string................

What will this mean for Phil Hughes?

[Nate B.]

The owner/publisher of Linux Journal moved to Costa Rica some years back and hasn't been subtle for his reasons, namely the DMCA. Now in an ironic twist, the paradise he moved to is considering making VOIP illegal, a technology I'd bet he uses. I'd look for Phil to lead the charge against this one.

Re:What will this mean for Phil Hughes?

[Garabito]

Actually Phil moved from Costa Rica to Nicaragua; apparently he was dissapointed because the goverment was considering Linux for some project, but threw it away after a visit from someone important from MS.

But the ironic twist is there, because both Costa Rica and Nicaragua will be adopting DMCA-like regulations as part of the Central America Free Trade Agreement with the U.S. (CAFTA)

Re:What will this mean for Phil Hughes?

[Nate B.]

Thanks for the update. I haven't kept much up-to-date with his where-abouts lately.

Thank you

[SunPin]

My big question is why do we elect such dumbasses?

You proved my theory that Canadians are idiots.

Re:Thank you

[rainman_bc]

You proved my theory that Canadians are idiots.

And you proved my theory that Americans are illogical... But then again, the whole electorate proved that.

1 dumass canadian != all canadians.

Re:Thank you

[SunPin]

The red states have terminally defective genes.

Get the wirecutters!

[bs_02_06_02]

Someone go offshore, and cut access to Costa Rica. Let them have their private internet. If they want to set rules, then they should have to live with the results. If they want freedom and choice, then we stay hooked up.

Re:prostitution?

[qwasty]

Anything specific you want to know, as it relates to the posted article?

Kinda like...

[gorbachev]

...when phone and cable companies in US are trying to make municipal broadband development. While they're quite as brazen as their Costa Rican brothers, they certainly are trying just as hard.

Costa rica is not the only one

[d!al3r]

In Serbia it is illegal to sell VoIP services. The only reason the VoIP telephony is not a crime is that the government has no means to control everyones computer.

This is just so stupid!

[arthurh3535]

Next they will be trying to charge long distance for packets sent or recieved out of your country.

Isn't the Internet about hooking people up everywhere?

Costa Rican Businesses

[base_chakra]

Costa Rica also happens to be an international finance center (IFC), which is a more accurate and non-derogatory term for "offshore tax haven". Since IFCs typically make great efforts to maintain policies that attract international business, I find this decidedly anti-business legislation to be curious.

Re:Costa Rican Businesses

[qwasty]

In downtown San Jose, I counted at least 3 banks on every street. As for me, if I were to pick a country to start a business in, it'd be Costa Rica simply because it's growing so fast.

Re:Costa Rican Businesses

[Headw1nd]

This actually puts the grandparent poster's comment about "foreign business owners becoming millionaires in 5 years" comment in perspective. Perhaps it has less to do with their restaurants and hotels, and more to do with their laundromats.

Re:Costa Rican Businesses

[wolfie_cr]

The current goverment is making a ridiculous attempt at solving the mistakes of the past 10 administrations by passing a huge tax law. Also they are arrogant and short sighted when it comes to attracting investors, they seem to think that everyone is DYING to move their business here and that we are not suposed to help them or make it easier .............. I.......as a CR citizen am starting to think that it would not be bad to have a nice recession (along with the corresponding migration of foreign capitals) so that there @#$@#$# who call themselves politicians come to their senses. CR is still far ahead of any other central american (And South American too) countries as far as quality human resources etc but if we don't join the 21st century and stay with draconian measures like ineficient telco then.......there are plently of other countries willing to take the lead......... Panama is one for example

Re:Costa Rican Businesses

[base_chakra]

Although foreign investors are encouraged to bank and incorporate in Costa Rica, and to solicit local services (like VoIP), they aren't actually able to do business in Costa Rica. This is the key limitation that goes along with offshore incorporation: your money goes there, you can maybe lease office space, but you can't move there, you can't own real estate, and you can't sell your products and services in the host country. An enormous percentage of global wealth is housed in IFCs, and most of those are in Central America and the Carribbean. So your instinct is right: incorporating offshroe (in CR or somewhere else) makes a lot of sense.

But once again, since VoIP benefits CR's economy by servicing foreign business both directly and indirectly, this new legislation is mysterious.

Costa Rica is supposedly very free..

[MicroBerto]

This is odd considering that Costa Rica has probably the biggest Libertarian movements in the world. Of course, it's only one politician (:)), but he's been making lots of headway

Costa Rica has always had an army

[AtariAmarok]

Costa Rica has always had an army. However, it is very small an unobtrusive compared that of other countries in the area. They don't even call it an army, but it is one anyway. Costa Rica was colonized differently, compared to the other countries in the area: more by settlers looking to build a home rather than plantationers. This made it somewhat more civil than the other places. As for imperialism, during the Soviet proxy wars against Central America during the 1970s and 1980s, the Soviets even created a rebel army to attack Costa Rica. It gained little ground, however.

Re:Costa Rica has always had an army

[mindstrm]

And uhh, what pray tell is this "army" that's not called an army, called?

Re:Costa Rica has always had an army

[B3ryllium]

National Armed Hackey-Sack Squadron

Re:Costa Rica has always had an army

[PierceLabs]

Costa Rica is ripe for regime change! :)

Re:Costa Rica has always had an army

[Rei]

Indeed; however, your mall security guards could probably take over the country, if your civilian security forces weren't armed with rocket propelled grenades and the like ;) I was down there in 2002 (beautiful, beautiful country, with wonderful people - I fell in love with it in a week, and cried when I had to leave :) ), staying with a family in Ciudad Colon while working on Radio Paz Internacional (which is now closed, unfortunately :P). I had never seen a mall security guard armed with a military-style assault rifle before ;)

James, the head of RFPI (the radio station), had received death threats from several American right wing anti-government groups after the Oklahoma City bombing. He had long monitored the short wave broadcasts of groups like this (not just in the US, but internationally), and after the bombing was suddenly one of the only experts on the subject, so every other newspaper and TV station had to interview him (despite normally cool relations with the US government, he was quite proud of how Clinton, in one sentence of a speech, made a reference to what he had reported).

One day he got back to the station, and these two guys dressed in all black (he said they were almost like ninja outfits) were standing there waiting. He asked them who they were, they showed some identification, and said that they were from the office of the vice president, and that they had received a credible threat on his life. He invited them in, but they refused, stating that there were more people coming. eventually there were 8 people there, and they had unloaded several large crates. They took them up to the second floor of the station (which has a beautiful all-glass wall around 3/4 of the building, with a great view down the mountainside), and started unpacking. There were machine guns, RPGs, all sorts of things; they turned Radio For Peace into one of the most fortified places in the country - quite the irony, really.

After a couple weeks, they packed up and left. A few months later, James was heading back from a transmitter shed, when he heard a strange metallic "Ping!" from the shed. He didn't think much of it and kept on walking. Partway between the shed and the station is a concrete block; he heard another "Ping!" from it that sounded different, and noticed powdered concrete rising up. He turned around and saw down the road two men on motorcycles aiming at him. He threw himself down behind the block. Either realizing that they were spotted or thinking that they got him, they drove off.

But yeah, back to the original subject... kudos to all of you down there for shunning a military. Your >60 years of peace is probably the main reason why your country is so well off in comparison to your neighbors. And I really hope to be able to visit again some time. :)

Re:Costa Rica has always had an army

[GreyWolf3000]

I lived in Costa Rica a few years back. I recall talking to my maid about how several members of her family were approached by suited men who promised lots of colones if they promised to vote for a certain presidential candidate (the then-incumbent). Not sure what year this was but the exchange rate was somewhere between 100-200 to the dollar.

What's the exchange rate now?

Re:Costa Rica has always had an army

[X0563511]

Militia?

Language nazis in Canada

[AtariAmarok]

"Any country that truly values freedom should find the thought of "criminalizing" any form of communication like this "criminal" in itself."

It has happened elsewhere in the continent. Pro "french culture" langauge nazis in Quebec for a time criminalized private communications that used the English language.

Re:Language nazis in Canada

[fishbowl]

>Major illogic Boggle, en?

Doesn't seem like it at first glance. If a stop sign was some color other than red and some shape other than octagon, would you regard it as an official stop sign? In Quebec, a sign that is not in English and French is not regulation, and would not necessarily be construed as being official against the milieu of offical signs that do follow the regulation.

Now, without knowing the details, I can see where the argument may come from. You say she won the case? She prevailed upon people who were much more aware of the details than I am. I'll bet this turns out to be perfectly reasonable, one of those things where the summary seems so outrageous (like the H*t McD*n*lds C*ff** story), but upon closer reading, makes perfect sense.

Again, Costa Rica has an army

[AtariAmarok]

They do indeed have an army. It is very small an unobtrusive, especially compared to countries nearby. They avoid calling it an army. However, it meets the definition of one.

Re:Again, Costa Rica has an army

[rquesada]

We call them cops... Army? Yeah right... Nicaragua and Panama (Our neighbours) have tanks, bazookas and aircraft, we have at least 9mm caliber guns and shields for our cops...

Re:Again, Costa Rica has an army

[epe]

at least? at most maybe?

Re:Again, Costa Rica has an army

[AtariAmarok]

"We call them cops... Army? Yeah right... Nicaragua and Panama (Our neighbours) have tanks, bazookas and aircraft, we have at least 9mm caliber guns and shields for our cops..."

You call them cops, but they receive at least $64 million in military spending each year. Just because they don't stack up against neighboring armies does not mean they are not an army. Just because they are lightly armed does not mean they are not an army (try telling the British invaders in old South Africa that the Zulu armed with sticks and spears were not an army!).

Re:Again, Costa Rica has an army

[wolfie_cr]

If I were to guess he meant the Unions :( Lets see similarities between them they have their own power structure, sometimes they disobey/manipulate the ones they are suposed to help (the common citizen), they can create havoc if not controlled properly, always looking for new conflicts as without them they would have nothing to do.......very expensive institutions..........list goes on and on.......... BTW, the "cops" do not necesarily have shields.....sometimes not even a bycicle to patrol the neighborhoods We here started "outsourcing" all the services that the goverment in theory provides long ago....... Now health, education and security are ALL a "do it yourself business"........yet they want more tax dollars to "fix everything", same'ol song they play every 4 years or so

Not different than amateur radio

[slavemowgli]

I can't talk about the USA, naturally (not living there), but over here, that's just the same way it's always been for amateur radio, more or less. Now, it hasn't been outright illegal, of course, but it was (and from what I know, still is) illegal to use it to actually have conversations with people, as opposed to just exchanging your call signs etc. The reason for that was - of course! - that the state-owned monopoly telecom did not want people to start using that instead of the telephone...

I'm not sure if it's still like that, given that there is no monopoly on phone services anymore, but I'm not sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if the law was still there, for no other reason than that there is no lobby for amateur radio users.

Re:Not different than amateur radio

[theophilus00]

For amateur radio operators in the US, it's illegal to receive or transmit international messages for a third party unless there exists an agreement between the US and the other country specifically allowing it. This includes patching (allowing a foreign operator to connect to a local US telephone network through your station).

The reason is precisely as you stated - some governments do not wish to allow any mode of international communication which would compete with the established system (which they own or have a significant interest in). Kind of sucks for VoIP, but is nice for amateur radio because you don't have a whole bunch of people with no interest in proper radio operation simply using it as a way to get around telephone toll charges.

I think the US regulations are different from those of the parent poster's country in that they generally apply only to third-party messages. Licensed amateur operators are allowed to have international conversations with other licensed amateurs without formal restriction.

Re:It's Illegal in Brazil

[diablobsb]

Posting as an anonymous coward because this is a lie?

I live here and we dont have ANY restrictions upon VOIP...
as a matter of fact, we are currently working on getting a large voip setup for headquarters and regional offices....

Troll...

Costa Rica is in North America, not South

[AtariAmarok]

"Didn't this already happen in another South American country?"

Another South American country? CR is on the North American continent, not South America.

Re:Costa Rica is in North America, not South

[ndrtkr]

Jeeez

Dude, don't correct someone if you're not sure of what you're saying... Costa Rica is NOT in North America... there's something between north and south america whether you want to believe it or not... it is called CENTRAL AMERICA.

Re:Costa Rica is in North America, not South

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

Wow, I didn't realize they had added an eighth continent. Back in my day North America ended at the southern border of Panama.

Re:Costa Rica is in North America, not South

[syrinx]

Dude, don't correct someone if you're not sure of what you're saying...

Costa Rica is NOT in North America.

I don't even think I need to add anything.

Re:Costa Rica is in North America, not South

[ndrtkr]

There you go!

ignorant.

Re:Costa Rica is in North America, not South

[ndrtkr]

There you go!

ignorant.

Re:Costa Rica is in North America, not South

[syrinx]

Uh huh. Notice how Central America is *included* in the map of North America, and even is mentioned under "Regions of North America".

And for God's sake, on that Central America page, it plainly says "Note: Central America is geographically part of North America."

ignorant.

Yes, one of us definitely is, I'll say that much.

Re:Costa Rica is in North America, not South

[GreyWolf3000]

This really depends on what map you look at.

Re:Costa Rica is in North America, not South

[AtariAmarok]

Yes. An accurate map, or one with mistakes. Here is one that makes no mistakes about the names of the continents and where they are. Other than forgetting entirely about Antarctica :)

Re:Costa Rica is in North America, not South

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

Well from the same site using link here. They list only seven contintents. I quote the following text from same page. "The Caribbean islands, Central America, and Greenland are considered part of North America. " Emphasis mine. Ignorant indeed.

Your needs are not other's needs

[AtariAmarok]

"annually in needless gadgets which require even more electricity that we can not already (reliably)supply."

What is needless to you might be needed by someone else.

Improvements to South African phone system

[AtariAmarok]

"Which could only mean one thing, their scientists reported breathlessly: back in 1005, South Africa had the best mobile telephone network the world had ever seen"

The South African system was made all the more robust by improvements that were forced on them just a few years before this by Y1K compliance.

ok, so we just won't do business there any more

[amnesiaWind]

That's fine.. if countries want to be short-sighted about technology, they will just shoot themselves in the foot. The fact is, VOIP is rapidly becoming THE communications protocol of choice - my whole company runs it's entire phone network on it, and I know many other businesses that have started doing the same.

Countries who resist this will only cause American businesses to pull out and no longer do business there. Since Costa Rica really doesn't have much going for them, my advice to them would be not to resist technology that promotes business growth.

Costa Rica has an army

[AtariAmarok]

"Not Costa Rica, they don't have one. There was a coup in '48 and after some chaos, the folks on top decided that having an army was in their case doing more harm then good"

They have an army and other military, actually. It is just small an unobtrusive. The country spent $64 million on the military in 2003.

Re:Costa Rica has an army

[palpatine]

The 1949 consititution bans a standing army, but also places the burden of national defense to the Ministerio de Seguridad Publica (Ministry of Public Security), which consists primarily of la Fuerza Publica (a federal police force) and the OIJ (Costa Rica's version of the FBI).

Are you considering the Fuerza Publica, a police (and therefore paramilitarym, or military-style) operation, to be the "Army" in this case? For example, one of the gun control laws here state that a single person or organization cannot own more than 1% of the firearms total of the Fuerza Publica, in the interests of national security.

If a country were to invade Costa Rica, it is true that the F.P. and the OIJ would be employing military strategy to repel that invasion. Is that considered an Army?

One more thing -- one way Costa Rica has been able to get away without having a standing army is because of their neighbors (Nicaragua and Panama for the geographically challenged):

Costa Rica's president at the time, Oscar Arias, negotiated the peace accords that ended the Nicaraguan civil war, and in those accords included a drastic reduction in Nicaraguan military force. It also means that the people and the government of Nicaragua are grateful for Costa Rica's help in ending the bloodshed, and thus are less likely to spontaneously invade the country (however, they are invading it with immigration!).

When Noreaga got booted out of Panama, the US did a fine job of eliminating Panama's entire military (along with a good chunk of a few cities). When the old president was re-installed, none of the Latin American countries wanted to recognize this president since it seemed to them to be yet another example of US meddling. Costa Rica said they would recognize it -only- if Panama's constitution would ban a standing army. Since their army was nowhere to be found, they have banned it. However, you'll find that Panama's police force, unlike Costa Rica's, is visibly militarized (submachine guns, combat boots, camo, and so on). But at least it's not a standing army that can invade another country without massive re-organization.

This is the same country...

[inteller]

....that shoots pople (via firing squad) for drunk driving. It seems death is the solution for everything there. ....hmmm not a bad Idea for this country!

Maybe there doing it...

[MSDos-486]

because standerd phone services is a lot easier to regulate then VoIP.

reasons americans go to costa rica

[qwasty]

The americans that live there are mostly retirees that go for the low cost of living and the tropical weather. Most of the americans that visit are male tourists or businessmen who stay in the tourist traps to see prostitutes. The young american women like to volunteer for environmental projects like saving sea turtles, in out of the way places. The American couples stay in the tourist traps, and since they're couples, they don't typically deal with prostitutes.

Most of the american visitors in Costa Rica are males travelling alone, who stay in San Jose, where the prostitutes are. In fact, Americans are pretty hard to find sometimes, until you walk near the bars and brothels. There's a place called Morazan Park that has a lot of "Gringo Bars" where the prostitutes hang out. I saw my first American there - dozens of them, actually - after dark, wooing prostitutes.

Costa Rica is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful places in the world, but after spending a few hours hunting for americans, and only finding them at Morazan Park, it's clear what most of them are there for. During the day, I'm sure they're out seeing the other tourist attractions, but at night, they collect like bees on honey at the seedy parts of town. Some of my friends lament that Costa Rica is perceived as a "sexual paradise" by foreigners (not just americans), and all the other nice things about CR are completely forgotten.

When I left the cities, I didn't see very many americans. Most were european, with a few canadians, brazilians, israelis, and japanese mixed in. I'm sure Americans take offense to the idea that the best place to find other americans in Costa Rica is at the brothels, but from my own experience, I'm telling you, it's largely true. Tourism is Costa Rica's bread and butter, and prostitution is a large part of that, and it caters to americans, who are the ones who made Costa Rica's tourist economy possible.

I heard somewhere that Costa Rica is the #1 tourist destination for Americans, outside of the USA. Since it's so cheap to fly from the USA to CR, I believe it. I don't think travel agents pimp Costa Rica as a place to find prostitutes, but once you arrive in Costa Rica, the prostitutes will find you if you look "Gringoey" enough. Costa Rican girls are unusually beautiful as well, and that's probably the first thing every single male traveller notices.

Re:reasons americans go to costa rica

[thetejon]

I guess I didn't spend enough time in San Jose. If you really want Americans in Costa Rica, try Playa Tamarindo in Guanacaste. There are plenty there surfing and drinking.

Words of a Costa Rica citizen

[rquesada]

I was born in Costa Rica and live there (here, indeed) since then... The problem in general is this, there is a big company called the Costarican Electricity Institute (ICE in spanish), it is run by the government and some of their achievments is that thanks to their founders, this was the sencond country in the world with electricity (One-two years later of New York's street lamps innaguration).

That company holds all the permissions to grant electricity, phone and internet access, and in fact, one of the biggest income is that of telephony, especially international calls.

What they are seeking is to be the only provider of VoIP, not to make it illegal at all, but provide the service and ban or send to jail any company that tries to use internet to send voice packets without a contrat with them, in that case even using Skype can cost you a few days at a prison, the only way to use VoIP is to ask them for a service, yet unavailable, and who knows for how long.

The same has happened with what they call "Advanced Internet" (Basically, ADSL access), they have some sort of pilot program with a few thousan d connections, but the real service will start later this year, whereas in other contries I had seen that optic fiber is beign installed around...

As a summary, we are giving one step ahead and two back in every bureocratic decision, mostly thanks to our government corruption (Heck, we have two former presidents in jail... and precisely for corruption among cellular phone providers contracts and "awards" upon their selection).

The situation is not as nice as the other big comment about Costa Rica, yes, we have not had any civil war or battle with our next countries in about fifty seven years, but there's a lot of delinquence, our streets suck (No more than a hundred meters without a volcanic crater in middle of the street).

But in the pretty hand, we are becoming a sort of "Sillicon Tropical Rainforest", there is an Intel facility at a few minutes from my home, Sun is planning to come here, and there's a lot of other companies that open operation centers around, yes, Microsoft is one of them, and recently donated a full equipped lab to my college, ITCR, before that, the ITCR was a loyal FOSS advocate... :'(

Also there are a lot of natural and beatiful places from beaches to volcanoes, and rain forests in between, we have no army (Remember "Fahrenheit 9/11"?), and the most important thing for the 99% of the population is to have a nice ringtone and that the Costa Rica soccer team get to the World Cup... So, it's very easy for an outsider with great ideas to come here, build a business and get profit as almost no "tico" (As we call ourselves) want to complicate it's live so much just to get a fancy phone... So good luck foreign investors, and you are welcome!!!

Yeah, but the girls...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Americans go to Costa Rica mostly for prostitution"

I find that hard to believe. Most women there really are the definition of "third world ugly".

Wider issues

[gidds]

Okay, this is silly, and may well not be worth taking at face value.

But it does raise some interesting questions. For example, the world currently pays a lot for (voice) telephone service; some places more than others, of course, but there's still a lot of revenue there.

What if all that traffic were to move over to IP? Lots of revenue lost, of course, but would the Internet cope at reasonable quality? Would it need lots more infrastructure to handle the extra traffic? If so, how does that get built and who pays? What business model should be used?

I've never used VoIP, and I don't pretend to have any answers. But just because we can now route the occasional call over the net satisfactorily and more cheaply doesn't necessarily mean what we can scale that up to the point of transferring our entire voice traffic to it.

Does anyone have any real information about these issues?

Telkom - yes!!!

[sapped]

Good old Telkom has already declared this illegal in south Africa.

For those of you that don't know the situation; Telkom is the only landline provider in South Africa, but also handily makes the rules deciding who can do what with any telecommunication business. Neat huh?

OK, I'm Costa Rican, Here's the Deal:

[CharAznable]

First of all, let's clear some things:

• Costa Rica has no army, just a police force and border guard.
• There is no death penalty. Drunk drivers don't get shot, just gang-raped in jail by other inmates.
• There is one telco, called ICE, and it's a state monopoly.
• Said telco offers excellent local phone service and cheap cellular lines, but incredibly crappy internet access. At least they have DSL and cable, but all my dad can get is 512k down, 128k up.

So what's happening is that there is a constitutionally mandated monopoly on telecommunications. What's happening that a bunch of old farts, the kind that have no fucking clue and are holding the country back, are figuring that VoiP would technically be in violation of said monopoly.
To be honest, it's amazing that there is such a big software industry in Costa Rica, considering that internet access is so crappy and regulated. A lot of people are trying to challenge the ICE monopoly, but it's hard going against the old guard. That's what Costa Rican nerds have to put up with.

Re:OK, I'm Costa Rican, Here's the Deal:

[wolfie_cr]

"Said telco offers excellent local phone service and cheap cellular lines, but incredibly crappy internet access. At least they have DSL and cable, but all my dad can get is 512k down, 128k up." He probably can get much more, I had 1024/256 not long agoand you can go for more if you need it, you just need deep pockets and I mean DEEP

Re:OK, I'm Costa Rican, Here's the Deal:

[Micah]

Crimony, I only have 128k down/64k up here in Ecuador. You can get faster but you pay BIG time. Even for this I pay $85/month. What does your 512/128 cost in CR? Just curious.

Re:OK, I'm Costa Rican, Here's the Deal:

[Garabito]

These are the rates for ADSL service in Costa Rica:
http://www.grupoice.com/esp/ayuda/tarifas.htm

128 / 64.....$28.25
256 / 128..... $46.32
512 / 128..... $72.32
1024 / 256..... $98.31

Re:OK, I'm Costa Rican, Here's the Deal:

[Micah]

*sob*

I wonder what's wrong with Ecuador, that it's so much more. We have a lot more people than CR, and there are plenty of tech-saavy people, many with money.

Stealth Phone

[Doc Ruby]

This might be the move that forces cryptophones into popular acceptance. How will their cops know that our two streams are VoIP, when we use two random ports, negotiated at an httpd (port 80), and our connections are encrypted to noise? People will need crypto just to get away with the cheap calls - the economics will force the acceptance of the extra stealth tech. By the time their gov't gets it together to do some kind of end run, it will be too popular, and too many influential Costa Ricans will need it. Enough people like that around the world (Costa Rica is a jetset destination), and every phone will come with the option as default.

Re:Stealth Phone

[Doc Ruby]

SSL.

Legislating Innovation

[stylee]

It would be a shame if this sets a precedent of setting legistlation that would seriously stunt the growth of these emerging technologies that should be making communication cheaper and easier, not harder and illegal.

I got news for you pal... the precedent is lready on place. It happens everyday all over the world. Perhaps you have heard of the DMCA, the Induce Act, and the bloated mess that patent and copyright laws are all over the world.

I know that some of these thing have good intentions at heart, but they have seriously overstepped their bounds when they start being used to protect outdated, older technologies that entire industries are based on. The corporations in those industries should grow and adapt or go the way of the cart and buggy.

I don't know the whole story...

[Mysticalfruit]

But I'll conject it has something todo with the fact that when people are using VOIP it makes it harder for the government to tap the phone to listen in.

And/or drug runners/dealers/czars are using VOIP todo their business... thus if they catch them using VOIP they can at least charge them for *something* i.e why the US government generally gets mobsters on stuff like tax evasion and not for cutting people in half with a chainsaw...

I live here and there is 1 telco

[dindi]

ICE is the name of the only telco in Costa Rica.
They provide internet, phone landline and cell.

Just to give an idea, GSM network just ran out of free lines, waiting period for a landline in suburban (not off the grid) areas is 6+ months.

I am renting an office to have net, because at my place there is no landline, nor 2-way cable (so you need a modem with dial up and cable, the latter DL the phone for upstream comms)

Back to the topic: Costa Rica has ONLINE casinos, sportsbooks, bingo halls, and they ALL use VOIP.
Call centers use VOIP.
If you make an emergency call int he states and do not speek english, there is a chance, that the call is directed here to a translator OVER VOIP.

I use VOIP to talk to good ol' europe, since the minute rate is $1 + to e.g. Hungary, and almost 2$ the other way.

ICE people do not like to work. They like to strike, and every time they mention privatizing the company, they go to the street and there is no service (there is phone, but no customer service, so if a line breaks or whatever pain you have, you are fsckd)

Well but hey, there is no snowstorms here, just occasional quakes ...

Ahm why they won't put it thru? The casino industry gives 1000s of jobs to students, so do other companyes who USE VOIP.

I am not worried ... on the other hand: I just tunnel it to my server on an unusual port as it was streaming whatever, and they can come and look really close and still see nothing :)

Re:I live here and there is 1 telco

[Technician]

I am not worried ... on the other hand: I just tunnel it to my server on an unusual port as it was streaming whatever, and they can come and look really close and still see nothing :)


If they suspect, they can delay packets to give you a good 2 second latency just to discourage active real time 2 way apps.

Re:I live here and there is 1 telco

[dindi]

i live on a shared ip with a bunch of others :)
if they delay my packets my ssh shells and other things will be laggy too ...

well i can always pack my stuff and hop over the border to whatever direction :)

on the other hand it takes a week for them to figure out a simple problem, so delaying my packets might happen in 2010 :)

Re:I live here and there is 1 telco

[dindi]

HAHA :) you are right my friend....

except the rainy season .. on the other hand it is less painfull than the winter months of good ol' Europe ....

but then again, yes .....if you run (a) business(es) online and live here, that is pretty OK.

If you have to deal with local companies and agencies, that heaven can turn into hell .... for an unpatient european like me or for an unpatient gringo (like most on ./)

I've been there

[mscnln]

I've been in Costa Rica, and the telephone company there *is* a real monopoly.
On public pay-phones, only their phone cards work!
Bring a pre-paid phone card from the US and you're out of luck, you have to buy one from them!

wrong

[glMatrixMode]

no that's wrong. The expression "Third world" is a translation of the french "tiers monde", which is a reference to the "tiers état", litteraly "third state", which used to designate unprivileged people in the kingdom of France, until the 18th century (by contrast with the nobles and the members of the Church).

The expression "tiers monde" dates back to 1952, and has been forged by demographer Alfred Sauvy, to designate poor countries, implying that the "tiers monde" is being despised and exploited just as the "tiers état" used to be.

See :
http://www.linternaute.com/histoire/motcle/2923/a/ 1/1/tiers-monde.shtml

Re:wrong

[Politburo]

Now that is very interesting and is the first time I have heard this. I do not believe I am 'wrong'... In my (admittedly limited) studies of international relations I have always used the First/Second/Third designations as described in my post and link, and as I said, this is the first time I've read about a connection between any previous terminology. My French isn't great either, but it appears that the synopsis in your link says something to the effect of "the author compares the Third World with the historical 'tiers etat'".

Although it appears that it can be said that there is a connection between the terms Third World and 'tiers etat', I again restate my assertion that First/Second/Third world designations are not economic indicators, but alliance indicators used during the Cold War.

Re:wrong

[adagioforstrings]

Most sources seem to indicate you're correct, though wikipedia lists the french origin also.

http://www.answers.com/third+world&r=67

Re:wrong

[glMatrixMode]

In French, using "tiers monde" to designate non-poor countries is unthinkable, as the word "tiers" strongly suggests poverty, because of the expression "tiers état". So "tiers monde" will probably always denote poor countries.

But of course no one said that the English expression "third world" will always have the same meaning : the meaning of expressions evolves with time.

If you're right, then the couple "third world"/"tiers monde" should be added to the list of false cognates, like
actual/actuel (=present)
journey/journée (=day)

Re:What's the problem?

[phuturephunk]

Your argument fails though, because you completely left out the consumer sentiment side of the equation. People don't like paying double digit percentage increases in service costs when the top brass are cutting themselves 8 figure paydays.

You just can't justify it. Not by the numbers.

Second, you're placing too much faith in the human condition. See, people don't just go to wor... ...wait.... ....OOhhh..I get it...:-~

Look before you leap

[AtariAmarok]

"Costa Rica is NOT in North America... there's something between north and south america whether you want to believe it or not"

Do the research. Go to dictionary.com and look up north america. Go to images.google.com and look up map of north america. You are going to be surprised.

Re:Look before you leap

[ndrtkr]

There you go!

ignorant.

Re:Look before you leap

[wolfie_cr]

I would say that this is one of "history is written by the winners" kind of thing In Latin America in general the lesson on geography is North America (canada, US and mexico) Central America (guatemala down to panama) South America (from panama border all the way down) So I guess I am a NORTH American..........next time I travel to the US I will say that to the INS agent and see what he says about that....... I am 30 so I was in school roughly 23 years ago....from then it appears that now there are 7 continents instead of 6 and that Central America (along with its distinctive history from the rest of the countries...all this coming from the colonial times) has dissapeared I am glad I got rid of my school books, apparently they are all "wrong" now.....it doesn't really matter to us anyway, if this helps the average "American" understand geography a little better I am all for it :P

Re:Look before you leap

[AtariAmarok]

"In Latin America in general the lesson on geography is North America (canada, US and mexico) Central America (guatemala down to panama) South America (from panama border all the way down)"

The problem with that is confusion. It is fine to call a region Central America, as there is not already something with that name. However, there have been continents named North America and South America for a very long time (even before "Central America" was distinguished). Why call a region North America when this region is a mere subset of the continent that already has this name?

There is a region named used which is "Anglo America" which could be used for US and Canada, but as you can see it leaves out Mexico.

"has dissapeared I am glad I got rid of my school books, apparently they are all "wrong" now"

They were indeed wrong if the mistakenly included the region of Central America as a distinct continent. The word continent means something, and having a "distintive history" is not part of it. This is why Europe, more and more, is considered to be part of the continent of Eurasia.

Where do we find such a map that has CA as its own continent? Something that world geographers ignore? Do Iberians (Spain and Portugal) also have odd textbooks that make Iberia a separate continent even though no-one else recognizes it as such?

"I am a NORTH American..........next time I travel to the US I will say that to the INS agent and see what he says about that"

Go to images.google.com and find one of the many maps which shows what the continents are, and print it out. Flap it in his face. If he insists that you are not from North America, he is probably one of those dumb "United Statesians" who thinks that New Mexico is a separate country from the USA.

Here is yet another nice map of continents.

Re:Look before you leap

[wolfie_cr]

Under this logic "Why call a region North America when this region is a mere subset of the continent that already has this name? " I would say then that there is ONE continent called America PERIOD. I was taught in school, continents are America, Africa, Asia, Europe, Oceania and Antartica so that's it. Not sure why North/South America if they are obviously the same landmass and you claim history has nothing to do with it. "If he insists that you are not from North America" he doesn't need to insist, he will put me in a nice little office for further interrogation under my false claims to be American "Where do we find such a map that has CA as its own continent? " I dont claim CA is a continent , the continent is AMERICA as a whole "The word continent means something, and having a "distintive history" is not part of it. " what does it mean exactly to you? Perhaps thats where the confusion is "Where do we find such a map that has CA as its own continent?" certanly not in the United States, I can only speak for the education I got, not sure about European geography lessons on this subject I have been looking for some maps but they are mostly US based sites so it could be that you guys split America in two and put the limit in Panama (for whatever reason)

Re:Look before you leap

[wolfie_cr]

Ok lets try this link http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas.html So we have North , South and Central America and also the Carribean .... The reason why Panama is "in" South America is indeed a historical one if you like, they were part of Colombia at the beginning of the 20th century......... http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas/central_am erica_ref02.jpg Anyway I don't care.......and don't think anyone does (except that suddenly we all became North Americans :P )

Re:Look before you leap

[AtariAmarok]

Can you find me one continent map that includes the "Americas" as only one continent? Some CR or Brazilian education site or something like that?

I did a Google images site on continents at costa rican sites, and found this one. It shows North and South America as distinct. Searches on continente/continentes were useless.

Re:Look before you leap

[wolfie_cr]

I will asure you something for one thing. NOONE from Guatemala,Honduras, Belize, El Salvador, Nicaragua and Costa Rica will tell you "I am from North America". If you ask any of us we live in Central America, which is a part of the continent of America. Take a look at this link and its widely varied number of "right" answers http://forum.leo.org/archiv/2002_04/02/20020402215 410l_en.html

Re:Look before you leap

[wolfie_cr]

Another one http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ cs.html Note how it says "Central American" it doesn't say North American or South American

Re:Look before you leap

[AtariAmarok]

At last a map that shows a smaller North America! But, linked within the same site are plenty of maps that show the entire continent, such as this one. Also of interest is this spanish-language map.

However, Panama is part of North America as well, being up the isthmus from South America. The continental dividing line is actually within Columbia's borders. Panama was part of a country that was mostly in South America (Columbia), but this part was not in South America at all.

There are continent-straddling countries elsewhere. A main example is Turkey. An Asian nation, it has a small western part that is in Europe. This western part of Turkey is not Asian just because it is a possession of an Asian country.

Re:Look before you leap

[AtariAmarok]

The first link you gave did not work. The second one contains links to "complete" NA maps. As for the Central Americans not knowing that they are in the continent of North America, they probably don't care or have misperceptions of what continent they are in.

Such misconceptions are not uncommon. Many don't think that Iraq and Israel are Asian nations.

Re:Look before you leap

[wolfie_cr]

Did you read the forum where they all have different stories (one claiming that the grandfather always spoke of 5, that they see America as one and in America they talk about Eurasia?) I for one never heard of Eurosia, perhaps that's how they teach it now. In a few million years though I will agree with you, Central America will no longer exist hehe

Re:Look before you leap

[wolfie_cr]

The first link I gave you works fine here, perhaps the new "North" American bandwidth that I got today is working better "they probably don't care or have misperceptions of what continent they are in." or perhaps the United States is making North America bigger

Re:Look before you leap

[AtariAmarok]

"or perhaps the United States is making North America bigger"

The continent was already mapped and defined before there was a United States!

Here's a good description from laborlawtalk that discusses "North America" as a region being different from "North America" as an actual continent (geography). See how Mexico gets lost:

"It should be noted that the term "North America", when employed in a context other than geography, may mean different things to different people. To many U. S. Americans and Canadians the term, in common usage, is often taken to mean "The United States of America and Canada, only", excluding Mexico and the countries of Central America, unless the context makes it clear that they are to be included (for instance, with specific reference to Mexico, when talking about NAFTA). This is due to the fact that culturally and economically, the USA and Canada are more alike to each other than they are to the rest of North America. Mexicans, however, are acutely aware that Mexico is a part of North America and object to this usage. The Central Americans, however, are generally content to be called Central Americans. "

Re:Look before you leap

[AtariAmarok]

No, I did not see the forum. Try the link again.

"Eurasia", by the way, is in more and more common usage, because when you get right down to it, Europe is just some peninsulas sticking out of the side of Asia. It does not resemble a distinct land mass on its own. Just like (continentally), Central America is just a narrowing of North America as you go south and east.

Re:Look before you leap

[wolfie_cr]

"The continent was already mapped and defined before there was a United States! " I FULLY agree example HERE http://www.goldenbks.co.uk/maps/M4.jpg Central America AND West Indies If you want to find maps that say "Central America" you will have to limit your image google search to top level domains in Europe or Latin America, obviously you guys get a different story in your geography classes Try for example .uk .es or .cr or any other top level domain that is either European or Latin American

Re:Look before you leap

[wolfie_cr]

" Just like (continentally), Central America is just a narrowing of North America as you go south and east." and since it is ONE landmass then we have ONE continent America, this discussion can go on forever so I will post for the last time and let you have the last word, just wanted to point out that (just like everything else) you get a certain "curricula" in your school at some place and time and I get a different one in my school in a different place and time Apparently the Europeans get a different version of this too and that adds to the confussion when people from all over the world talk about this 20 years ago I could not have imagined that in the States Central America is simply listed as part of North America and on top of that, America is SPLIT into two different continents This is all SUBJECTIVE and also full of politics Cheers Just tried the link again, here is some of the text "Topic: How many continents are there? Comment: Following the Near/Middle East discussion, I thought I'd ask how many continents are considered to exist in German. In the US, you learn there are 7: Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia, Europe, North America, and South America (though people often refer to Eurasia as one continent). A Spanish friend of mine once told me that there were 6, though I don't remember the distinction she made. Comments? Roy Tue Apr 2 21:54:10 2002 Comment: There are 5 continents considered to exist: Europe, Asia, America, Africa, Australia Michael (Germany) Tue Apr 2 22:01:16 2002 Comment: From my school days I kind of remember 5 continents: Africa, America, Asia, Australia, Europe. Only remember regarding Antarctica as a continent later. Our teacher sure didn't teach us North and South America as different continents. Stefan Tue Apr 2 22:03:33 2002 Comment: In school (Austria, 1980s) I learned that there are seven. Perhaps the differences depend on the time you learn it rather than the place where you learn it? (I rememeber my father always talking of five continents: the Americas were considered as one continent, and Antarctica was not considered at all.) stefan Wed Apr 3 00:22:07 2002 Comment: Here in (middle) Germany we learned there are five continents: Eurasia (=Europe+Asia), North-America, South-America, Africa and Australia (nowadays the latter is replaced by Oceania) Andreas Wed Apr 3 10:05:05 2002 Comment: I'm quoting Britannica: ''continent, one of the larger continuous masses of land, namely, Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Europe, and Australia, listed in order of size. (Europe and Asia are sometimes considered a single continent, Eurasia.)'' So, according to Britannica (ed.1999), there are either five or seven continents - depending on whether you class Europe and Asia as one or two continents. "

Re:Look before you leap

[AtariAmarok]

I wonder how many of these in the forum quotes are geographers?

How about this: "if there is a North American continent, Costa Rica is in it". ok ? :)

Re:Look before you leap

[wolfie_cr]

They are not geographers obviously but they each got their education based on texts prepared by such Btw you are getting closer to the correct definition of North America ""if there is a North American continent, Costa Rica is in it". ok ? :) " :P

Re:Look before you leap

[AtariAmarok]

Yes. CR is part of the continent of North America. Regardless of where Mexico turns out to be, CR is not part of the region of North America (Norte America). I still think it causes confusion to have a continent and a region with tbe same name but different areas. Yet again, I also think it causes confusion to use the term "Americans" just for "USAians."

Now, how about the military? A couple of Costa Ricans insists that Costa Rica has no army or military, yet I find several web sites listing how many members are in it, and the $60,000,000 spent by the CR government each year on the military.

Re:Look before you leap

[raju1kabir]

Under this logic "Why call a region North America when this region is a mere subset of the continent that already has this name? " I would say then that there is ONE continent called America PERIOD. I was taught in school, continents are America, Africa, Asia, Europe, Oceania and Antartica so that's it. Not sure why North/South America if they are obviously the same landmass and you claim history has nothing to do with it.

Not sure what you're getting at here. First, you say that North and South America should be considered a single continent because they are physically linked. Then you insist that Asia, Europe, and Africa are separate continents? What the hell? Have you ever actually seen a world map?

If Africa gets to be a separate continent, then so does South America; the Suez Canal is longer than the Panama Canal. Europe and Asia have no excuse whatsoever and are the same continent by any reasonable definition other than snobbery.

they are mostly US based sites so it could be that you guys split America in two and put the limit in Panama (for whatever reason)

A few years back, the US made a calculation and determined that it was cheaper to dig the Panama Canal than to re-print all those geography textbooks.

This concern isn't limited to CR

[gioan]

Let's examine this given a tried-and-true formula:

1) Cheaper phone service = cut out middleman
2) Middle man = government tax and/or phone authority
3) ...
4) Profit!
5) Slammed by The Man(tm), no more easy profit.

Until/unless somebody with clout realizes that encouraging free enterprise by letting business grow will yield collateral tax benefits elsewhere, then laws/bans like this this will continue to be an issue, regardless of whether it's Costa Rica or elsewhere.

In Mexico It is already illegal.

[Anonymous Coward]

As you can read here, Mexico's telecoms regulator Cofetel bans VoIP services unless they are offered by the monopolic Mexico's biggest telecom company Telmex.

It is already illegal in Mexico. You can't get easyly a concession since there are Telmex execs in Cofetel Board.

Funny telcos (and not just the states ones)

[Pac]

Telefonica (the Spanish group who also owns Terra, some banks and more) is probably yhe largest Brazilian phone company nowadays. They also own the most popular broadband service, Speedy. Until last year their service contract stated you couldn't use VoIP because "it consumed too much band".

Not a crime; just a badly written article

[jfengel]

The entire discussion on Slashdot has centered around a substantial misreading of the article.

The real point of the article is that the Costa Rican national telephone company wants VOIP regulated as a service, like the other phone lines are. We are having the same debate in the United States. The phone company here was originally designed as a monopoly, and universal service meant subsidies. Find a way around the monopoly, and there's no way to fund the subsidies. So you either regulate it enough to collect taxes or do away with the phone service in rural areas (which is often the basis of internet service in those areas as well.)

Costa Rica has similar regulatory issues. So they're in the phase of "Hey, this ought to be regulated." The regulations are completely undefined as yet, so some reporter speculates that they could in some ludicrous limit case result in criminalizing VOIP and then mentions it in the headline, the lead line, and then precisely once in the actual body of the article.

Whereupon Slashdot copies the headline, and focuses the summary on it. Read into the rest of the article and you might find that most of the time when the Slashdot response to an article is "How could anybody be so incredibly stupid?" the answer is usually, "They're not, they've just been taken out of context."

It may well be that any regulation of VOIP is a bad idea, that the Internet wants to be free, and if it outcompetes the old regime then we'll have to come up with a new plan. In Costa Rica's case, if they lose too much tax money from POTS to VOIP, they'll have to raise taxes elsewhere. Perhaps they'd raise a sales tax or income tax. But talk of criminalizing VOIP strikes me as a hysterical response to a subject that requires actual thought.

Re:Not a crime; just a badly written article

[mirko]

Thanks, you just made my point with this excellent comment. You desserve to be upmodded to heaven ;)

Re:Not a crime; just a badly written article

[skywire]

As Justice Marshall said, the power to tax is the power to destroy. To whatever extent a thing is taxed, to that extent it is outlawed.

What the rent-seeking state telephone monopoly is proposing is that data transmitted over the internet that happens to have human speech encoded in it must be identified as such and taxed by the state. This strikes at the heart of the internet.

Re:Not a crime; just a badly written article

[jfengel]

You're absolutely correct. But the corollary of Justice Marshall's statement is that to injure nothing, the state must collect no taxes whatsoever. You thus end up with a state which does no harm, but doesn't do a whole hell of a lot of good, either.

In a perfect world you tax things which you wish to discourage; cigarettes and gasoline are heavily taxed in most places in the US. Fortunately, we don't have enough vices to run things solely off of sin taxes; unfortunately, that means we have to also tax things we wish to encourage, like "income" and "sales" and "property".

The money always comes from somewhere, and whenever we tax a Good Thing, people will complain about it. And they'll be right, except that the money does have to come from somewhere. (Assuming that we agree that the various government mandates, from police to roads to universal telephone service, are a good thing; if not we're having a rather different discussion.)

So yeah, this strikes at the heart of the internet, and so it may ultimately be futile. It's hard to regulate Internet connections, what with the satellites and wireless and such. But it's not the speech they're trying to limit; they're just trying to make sure that crucial infrastructure gets funded somehow. In the limit case, rich Costa Ricans will have VOIP (free with their Internet, which they want anyway), and poor Costa Ricans, unable to afford computers, will do without phone service entirely since there will no longer be enough people on it to pay the overhead.

The nice thing about POTS is that the hardware on the consumer end is incredibly cheap. Sports Illustrated will kick in a phone free when you buy their magazine. There's a lot of overhead already in place, but it requires maintenance, as do the expensive switches in the middle. If only the poor were to use it, it would probably collapse.

Maybe that's a good thing. The Internet infrastructure is more flexible. Perhaps what they need instead is to abandon their POTS system and subsidize VOIP phones and IP service for the poor people if they (the voters) decide universal service is something they want. In which case they couldn't tax the phones, so they'd tax something else an equivalent amount (or more, since I'm suggesting expensive subsidies). Either way the phone tax gets paid, it's just a question of how much for what kind of phone system you want and whom you wish to have it.

Perhaps economically speaking that would cost less overall and/or do more good, helping put Internet in every house. I dunno; I'm not an economist, nor an expert in Central American economies.

Re:Not a crime; just a badly written article

[dotgain]

Here everyone was, flinging shit on the Bush administration, talking about the military, governement assisted monopolies and corruption, and you come along, with your right-click->open in new tab "Why I read the f__ing article.

Well I hope you're happy. Do you think, if I wanted the facts, and headlines that were vaguely related to the article, I'd be on slashdot!?!

You should have your UID taken away. Everyone was enjoying themselves until you came along.

Re:Not a crime; just a badly written article

[PingPongBoy]

Are we proposing a "born again" categorization of posts?

Re:Not a crime; just a badly written article

[lgw]

You're absolutely correct. But the corollary of Justice Marshall's statement is that to injure nothing, the state must collect no taxes whatsoever. You thus end up with a state which does no harm, but doesn't do a whole hell of a lot of good, either.

Sounds better than what we have today, or at least cheaper.

Re:Not a crime; just a badly written article

[jfengel]

Cheaper, hell yeah. But I gotta admit that I'm really fond of the fact that if I get robbed I can call 911 (on the publicly-supported phone) to call the publicly-supported police, who can get to my house pretty quick on the publicly-supported roads.

I suppose I could just hire somebody to do all that, but it would be cheaper to buy it in bulk with all my neighbors. How would we decide which one to get? We'd probably vote on it. What would we call the resulting organization? We'd probably call it a government.

Perhaps it'll be a less crappy government than the one I have now, but it's like code: old and badly-maintained code could always do with a scrap and rewrite. But it's hard to get customers to pay for that, and they get really upset if you don't maintain the old code base in the meantime. So we usually just end up muddling along with what we had.

Re:Not a crime; just a badly written article

[lgw]

The police have not done a very good job of preventing me from being robbed, burgled, assaulted, having my car stolen, etc. OTOH, the police have taken more money from me than all the criminals combined. You might say I'm a bit jaded about this.

You're right though, we need roads and a military, and preventing the military from *becoming* the government is one key thing our government does well.

Re:Not a crime; just a badly written article

[jfengel]

The police have not done a very good job of preventing me from being robbed, burgled, assaulted, having my car stolen, etc.

I'd argue that if the police didn't exist, you'd have been robbed, burgled, and assaulted more frequently than you have been. You probably pay something on the order of $2,500 a year in state taxes (where the police budget comes from), and perhaps $1,000 of that goes to the police (rather than roads and schools). If the crime rate went up to the point where you had one car stolen every 2 years, rather than every 10 years, you'd probably break even.

Those numbers are rubbish, since I'm talking about state taxes and not federal taxes (not to mention that I don't know how much you make and where you live, and I've excluded sales taxes, blah blah blah), and a considerable chunk of your federal taxes comes back to your state for police protection among other things, so you may well be paying more for your police protection. Still, the point is the same: there would be a lot more crime if the criminals didn't fear the police.

Maybe that's not true: get rid of government entirely and you could buy your own guns, and nobody would arrest you if you shot a burglar coming into your house. However, I'd want cover fire if I went to the ATM.

In this country I'm more worried about the rich business interests taking over the government than the military, though of course some of the richest business interests are the military contractors.

Corruption sucks. I say we make me absolute dictator and I'll be really good. Promise.

Re:Not a crime; just a badly written article

[lgw]

I'd argue that if the police didn't exist, you'd have been robbed, burgled, and assaulted more frequently than you have been.

I'm not arguing with your general point, but it's worth pointing out that this claim is only true for certain economic classes. For the urban poor, the police are often more of a menace than a help. I've experienced this first hand.

However, I'd want cover fire if I went to the ATM.

The alternative is not anarchy, the alternative is "private justice". You see this today in some of the richest and poorest neighborhoods, where the rule of law is maintained by a group other than the police. Nevertheless, I can't object strongly to the current system, as it restricts the amount of trouble caused by the kind of people who become police officers (yes, I know I'm over-generalizing here).

Apples and Oranges

[Anonymous Coward]

Costa Rica has suceeded as a nation largely because it has not privatized many services.

This is like saying that "Bob is healthy because he never took anti-AIDS drugs", while omitting the fact that Bob doesn't have HIV. Channeling Thabo Mbeki here? :-)

Privatization in the countries that you talk about is a response to poor governence, the economy tanking, the government realizing that it cannot pay for everything and needing external help, amputating itself to get the loans they need. In other words, the shit hit the fan. The difference is that in Costa Rica, they have had good governence for the bulk of the 20th century and therefore never found themselves to be in the position that Argentina and Bolivia found themselves in. The reason that the IMF is so strict with austerity is because their number one priority is to make sure that any loan they give out comes back with interest. You cannot do that if their government runs a deficit.

Now it could be said that the IMF should be restructured so that it is less a bank and more a charity and hence offer debt relief more often, but that is a separate question.

the real reason they are doing this

[dahlek]

involves a complex conspiracy having something to do with nearby, unhinhabited islands, and dinosaurs .

Re:What's [tt]he problem?

[tomhudson]

you completely left out the consumer sentiment side of the equation

This is the new "new economy". The consumer doesn't count for squat.

Not that the consumer ever did, really. After all, the consumer's duty is to consume. Eat. Eat those Big Macs. Supersize Me, Baby! They ain't called "consumers" for nothin', dude!

The Bush Administratin has taken it to the logical next step, feeding the public BS through a military-fetish male prostitute. This is typical Bush - after all, as the old saying goes,

"There's only 2 things came out of Texas - steers and queers".

In light of that Texan tradition, do you *really* believe it was a pretzel Bush gagged on?

Should be no doubt that CR is in North America

[AtariAmarok]

What were you trying to show? The first map showed all of North America, including Central and part of South. The second only showed the Central American sub-region of North America.

This shows it even better:

Dictionary def. of North America

This map clearly shows the continents

This one clearly shows what is North America.

All three of them have Costa Rica well within the confines of North America. Some people do not realize that "Central America" is a sub-region of North America just as Scandinavia is a sub-region of Europe. Apparently, you are included.

From the dictionary definition of Central America: "A region of southern North America extending from the southern border of Mexico to the northern border of Colombia".

Re:Should be no doubt that CR is in North America

[ndrtkr]

List of countries that belong to North America: Mexico, USA and Canada. Period. And no, we don't have an army.

Re:Should be no doubt that CR is in North America

[lgw]

List of countries that belong to North America: Mexico, USA and Canada. Period. And no, we don't have an army.

No, no, that's the list from the future, after the countries that do have armies get greedy. ;)

Re:Should be no doubt that CR is in North America

[kraxx]

When I was in the phone with an US customer, and when I asked him "Do you know where is Costa Rica", he told me "Oh yeah, It is in south florida right?". Many US people think Mexico is part of the states and they hear Irak everyday and they dont even know where is located, he said, after I told him we are in Central America...No comments...

Oceanliner Companies Attempting to Outlaw Aircraft

[srobert]

Imagine taking this approach 100 years ago. Oceanliners would push for legislation outlawing transoceanic aircraft. Horse trainers would push to abolish internal combustion engines. Theatrical companies would go after movie theaters. And the parcel services would try to eliminate telegraphs.

one word... bribery

[SpacePunk]

Companies need to be sure to pay their 'bills'.

Your Argument is Poor

[Evil W1zard]

Why don't people just give up on complaining how bad the USA is because they can't get free music and videos. OK so I make widgets right and I copyright/patent my widgets. Then another person makes a 100 percent exact copy of my widget and starts giving it away for free. Now less people want to buy my widget, which I have worked long and hard to develop because they can get it for free. This causes me financial loss. There it is in simple terms. Now comparing VoIP to this scenario and how the US is handling it is plain stupid. We are not talking about a copy of technology we are talking about new technology that is replacing old technology and obviously Costa Rica thinks that this is a threat to them. (Not agreeing what-so-ever that they are in the right for criminalizing use of VoIP because I think that is a truly stupid move on their part.) Also I am guessing that you fall under the 98% literacy rate, but your spelling needs work "constiuentcy".

Re:Your Argument is Poor

[PingPongBoy]

OK so I make widgets right and I copyright/patent my widgets. Then another person makes a 100 percent exact copy of my widget and starts giving it away for free. Now less people want to buy my widget, which I have worked long and hard to develop because they can get it for free. This causes me financial loss.

Whose argument is poor? The pot calls the kettle black.

Consider Linux, PC clones, Windows, Internet Explorer, etc. I'm talking about objects that could have been sold with much greater enforcement of copyright, patents, what-have-you, but the market would probably have entered a state with more competition and a much smaller market share for each of these. Instead, people can obtain these things readily and Bill Gates is still richest.

Certainly an inventor or producer deserves to be rewarded and if the inventor/producer can seek to increase his/her revenues by a factor of N slightly larger than 1 by making more people pay, go for it. However, look at it this way - everyone has benefited from inventions throughout history. Isn't there some onus of people to return something back to civilization by way of creativity?

Feeling ambivalent? Then make shareware.

Besides, with all the new fangled things coming out an invention may well become superseded or irrelevant.

Re:Your Argument is Poor

[Evil W1zard]

How is it the Pot calling the Kettle Black? Nowhere in my statement did I contradict my argument? If I said that copyright infringement was a horrible thing to do, but then said I like to burn DVDs you might have a point. Might want to look at the meaning of a phrase before you use it. And yes some people love to give away things for free and some people love to make things and profit from them. Making profit off an invention doesn't make you a bad person and if you're invention is great enough it will make a large impact whether it is free or not. OK for one I said an exact replica so don't go into the well Linux1. Is Linux an exact replica of Windows? No it is an Operating System that is entirely different? 2. Is

Phone, like post, is difficult

[PhilHibbs]

Setting up a monopoly is the only easy answer to telecoms, as with the postal service. The infrastructure required is immense, and it's difficult to turn a profit on connections to remote areas with a uniform pricing scheme.

Liek it or not, we depend on the regular, land-line 'phone service for emergency calls. Sure, I've never made a 999 call, but it's reassuring that if the power goes out and there's a stranger trying to break down my back door that I know that I can pick up that handset and get straight in touch with the police, or the fire brigade, or whoever is appropriate.

If VoIP becomes widespread, and a lot of people no longer have a traditional 'phone connected to the POTS, this will be a major concern. If the infrastructure owner gets squeezed out of business, who is going to run these services?

Note that I said "only easy answer". Not "only answer". We have a privatised system over here un the UK, and the US has some kind of "competition" too, but I don't really have an opinion on how well those systems have coped. I can only imagine that in a small country it would be very hard to operate a telephone system without a monopoly.

Supra Telecom

[TombGuard]

Isn't Supra Telecom a Costa Rican company?

Oh yeah - the ILEC's and State Owned

[kilodelta]

Just Love VoIP. Here they've spent how many billions on outside plant and switching gear only to be supplanted by something that runs over a shared medium like cable.

But the thing is, I have no sympathy for entrenched monopolies like state telecoms or incumbent providers here in the United States. For years they've used their muscle to force state regulators to take a passive role.

Now comes a technology that utilizes infrastructure that is already in place, sometimes even using the incumbents own DSL circuits against them. I like seeing them scared. Even though they've spent billions over the years to build the network, they've reaped obcsence profit from all of us.

In many places, the disruptive technology always overtakes the incumbent technology. Sorry but that's just the way it is. My SO is always down on VoIP saying it isn't as reliable, etc. But it is, people just don't realize how unreliabel the incumbents can be.

that's funny

[St. Arbirix]

In light of this article for post-reelection U.S. citizens who want a country to deport themselves to.

To quote this article:
Costa Rica: This little country has been overrun by Blue Staters, all of whom are fervently stroking their crystals while holding the lotus position meditating upon their auras. Costa Rica is the Starbucks of Central America. Costa Ricans are nice, polite people, who dislike conflict (they have no military even), and who are generally well educated but who are becoming, well, a bit bemused and perhaps alarmed about all these gringos pouring into their country.

<tongue in=cheek>
It sounds like a good portion of their economy is based around long distance phone calls from the gringos to their families and friends back home. VoIP would devastate them.
</tongue>

not going to happen

[alonsoac]

There was strong opposition to the idea since the beginning. BTW this was news about 2 or 3 weeks ago.
The more educated people understand that ICE (the local telco) is just trying to make more money and charge for something that many of us are already doing for free. It would be ridiculous to pass a law like this.

ICE has been the focus of several corruption scandals recently and people jus don't trust them anymore and it would be difficult to get the general population to stand behind them on something like this that doesn't seem to benefit anyone but ICE itself.

Last time there was a popular uplift because ICE convinced many (less educated people) that ICE was going to be sold to multinational companies and that the poor people would have to pay more for services, which was not true but people fell for it. I don't see how ICE can get popular support now.

Alonso
Owner of Discover Costa Rica travel agency.

Re:not going to happen

[Garabito]

ICE has been the focus of several corruption scandals recently and people jus don't trust them anymore

More than that not to trust ICE, people don't trust the men in high executive positions. People don't trust the corrupt politicians that put them there. People don't trust unions (sindicatos).

Same with the CCSS.

Last time there was a popular uplift because ICE convinced many (less educated people) that ICE was going to be sold to multinational companies

The less educated people? Like university students? People like Ottón Solís, Joyce Zurcher or Gabriel Macaya?

OK, it wasn't written in the law proposal, but many suspected that it would happen in the long run. And all we knew that the combo didn't come out in a transparent way.

You may want an open market all that you want, and that's a valid position, but there was something very fishy about that proposal. After all, now we get to know a little more about Miguel Angel Rodriguez.

Re:Oh yay

[symbolic]

The economy is very efficient, and it runs an American-style government on only a 13% tax base.

Does it sport the same kind of corporate-owned political system?

VOIP will *NEVER* be illegal in the US

[w00master]

Why?

AT&T has spent BILLIONS investing in it.

w00master

such a good comment

[museumpeace]

real information if a bit OT...where are the Moderators? oh, well, Timing is everything on /.
The speed and effectiveness with which the CR defense force set up protection for a broadcaster under right wing threat forces me to toss a lot of assumptions I was ready to make about the topic of this post. I would have assumed CR authorities would lack the technical know how to stop anyone who could arrange for VOIP through some tunneling protocol. The theories to the effect that Telcos pressured the gov't to set this policy fits my stereotype of latin american governments but now I gotta wonder.

Legal?

[tetabiate]

Not really. How do you think Carlos Slim Helú (owner of the mexican telephone company) became the nineth most powerful man in the world?
In these third-world countries politicians are vassals of the rich that live like maharajas with full control of the legal and economical systems.

Try Thailand - ditto!

[HarryZink]

Apparently, you can get arrested in Thailand for using, or advocating VoIP - the fact that the telecom monopoly is owned by th eprime minister is probably jst coincidence ....

"According to sources, wrote Geoff Long for CommsDay Global, "Thai authorities have begun a crackdown on illegal SIP phone services" with up to 30 people charged with offering illegal phones and telecom services, "an offence which carries a significant fine and or jail term"."

Literacy rates?

[haystd]

What sources are you using for the quoted literacy rates or are you joking? 65% seems low except for the very poorest of nations.

Kentucky...

[Mark_MF-WN]

Ah, Kentucky, favourite state amongst enthusiasts of fine spirits.

Re:You might have wanted to read the parent's post

[niiler]

I agree with you 100%. Recently we've been using a type of doublespeak to redefine a lot of words.

Costa Rica in North America,and no other continent

[AtariAmarok]

"List of countries that belong to North America: Mexico, USA and Canada"

When I checked many lists, they properly listed Costa Rica. Seems you have no idea what continent your country is in! Here is just one of many. You may wish you were not in North America, but unless you can find those wizards who moved Atlantis so they can move Costa Rica, you are out of luck.

You have not caught me on a weak spot. I know a lot about geography, and can even place the vast majority of countries, and I know what continents and regions they are in.

The Costa Rican army, which exists, is under the Ministry of Public Forces. The government spends nearly $70,000,000 on it each year. I suppose you were not aware of this, either.

How many maps and lists do you have to be shown before you know what continent your own country is in? 40? 100? 200?

Everyone's posts summarized by me:

[TheLittleJetson]

1. Will [a similar technology] be illegal too?

2. I'm scared!

3. I'm Costa Rican, how dare you say this?

Are you REALLY Costa Rican? Nahhh.

[AtariAmarok]

"I am Costa Rican....But there is simply no military in Costa Rica. Big waste of money."

In recent years, Costa Rica has spent more than $60,000,000 a year on the military. If you were Costa Rican, you would likely know that this "big waste of money" was going on.

Re:Are you REALLY Costa Rican? Nahhh.

[Garabito]

Well, I don't know where that money is going to, but I know where is not:

• Roads maintenance
• Public schools

Re:Are you REALLY Costa Rican? Nahhh.

[kraxx]

Im Costa Rican, and honestly Im surprised for all the mathematical analysis that is being done here...:)

"Costa Rica has spent more than $60,000,000"
This is absolutely false, I would like this gentleman to tell me where did he get this information.FYI: The army in CR has been abolished since 1949, since then, the military uniform is prohibited for Policemen and other Special Police Groups. Not even a cent has been invested in a grenade, or rocket, or aircrafts.
CR is the envy of the region, 98.5% in phone and electricity national coverage, even better than Mexico(92%) and Argentina(94%); One of the best healthcare levels in Latin America; We have about 400000 inmigrants mainly from Nicaragua, Colombians, Cubans, etc (we are 4 million costaricans). 95% of the people know how to read and write, compared with latin america, this is outstanding. AND THE BEST OF ALL, THAT NOBODY CAN PURCHASE, THE PEACE WE BREATH EVERYWHERE WE GO. Ask northamerican people that have been here and you'll see it by yourself.
We are not a rich country, the few money we earn, is invested to provide better education,roads,houses for poor people,etc..., but we make a big effort to live better everyday. as I said before, the richness of a country cannot purchase the most important, the peace of its citizens!!
Proud to be Costa Rican!!! Pura vida!

kraxx

So, in Canada its a crime to save your life...

[renehollan]

... by spending your own money: its "unfair" to those who can't afford to do so.

The world is full of horrible, authoritarian, regimes.

Making VoIP illegal in Costa Rica is probably justified by protecting people's jobs at traditional circuit-switched telcos. We can't have the buggy-whip manufacturers starve, can we?

Re:So, in Canada its a crime to save your life...

[thebigmacd]

It's not like that at all in Canada. If you can afford better healthcare you can go to another country and get it done. $8000 all-inclusive trip to Chile for back surgery for example. Including cost of taking and lodging a spouse. Back to Canada in 3 days. Lots of people with money go to Buffalo NY from Ontario for surgery as well. It's not illegal at all.

Re:So, in Canada its a crime to save your life...

[renehollan]

Obviously, I was referring to health care obtained in Canada.

It is illegal for a healthcare provider that subscribes to the provincial health care plan to accept funds for services covered by such plans. It is illegal to make use of private insurance without subscribing to the public system. Private health services providers are heavily regulated by the province and there is a general trend to not license their practitionors these days, severly limiting the number of such providers -- where they exist, they often have to cater exclusively to non-citizens or non-immigrants. Of course, paying such a provider when they are not allowed to receive payment is colluding with them to break the law, and thus illegal.

Canada does not (yet) crack down on those seeking care in other countries, however, most provinces (Ontario, certainly) require those who subscribe to the provincial plan to agree to live in the province permanently -- Google the application forms for Ontario OHIP, for example. While this does not preclude trips outside the country, it makes becoming a non-resident fare more difficult without breaking the law, if one ever subscribed to a provincial health plan (or moving from one province to another, for that matter).

To be sure, Canada does not appear to crack down on those who break these laws, but it only takes an instant for that policy to change, and for people to start "being made examples of".

Finally, with the high taxes in Canada, it is rare that one can amass even $8k to travel for surgery. I consider it criminal that the government will not spend at least as much as it collects in the health care portion of taxes from an individual on that individual's care, when it is medically necessary (i.e. to save a life).

The whole system is a fraud: there is the appearance of an attempt to avoid a two-tier health care system where "the rich" pay to get better or faster service, yet, "the rich" can easily get such care outside the country.

Same site

[AtariAmarok]

From the same site, you have this map....

The Google search on central america for me came up with many nice examples showing the region of Central America: . One of them, however, showed only South America!

You want me to try other domains such as .es? Look at this map of all continents. Or this one, which implies "America" as one continent, but still divides it into Norte and Sud: NO central.

Re:What's the problem?

[t_allardyce]

Spot on except that you missed the entire point. This isn't about under-cutting business to spite it this is about the principle that America for example was _supposed_ to be founded upon: freedom/capitalism. A capitalist system is ment to balance itself for the most part, new technologies emerge all the time and that means business has to change all the time. If Telco X is free to sell phone calls by the minute then Telco Y is free to sell calls for a flat fee and I am free to email my friend or even... use a free voip program! the telcos have decided to rip me off and at my stage in life (student) i CANNOT afford to be ripped off like that because unless i grab onto the job market with both hands and get up to a comfortable lifestyle i wont have any money. so unless i get to work in that boat company or manage to get the VC for my own im not going to benefit from giving my money to Telco X and watching it filter down the economy, this is because of a thing known as 'slipping higher education and poor management of the nations next generation of professionals by a government lost in their ass' in order to make it in this society you can't settle for having just enough pay to balance your account or pay the rent, you have to push people aside a little, im cutting costs using voip so i can grow up to make more money later, the people who got to the top of the Telcos fucked over others to get there too and im not taking my chances, ill leave that to everyone else.

Costa Rica, precedent!?

[Hobadee]

It would be a shame if this sets a precedent...

No offesnse to any Costa Ricans, but since when has Costa Rica set a precedent for anything technology-wise? I don't think we have anything to worry about, especially with Bush as president. He will just declare it a "terrorist act by a corrupt government" or something. There is no chance here in the US, where money is to be made off VoIP, that this will become illegal. (As for most other countries as well I presume.)

They have laws in costa rica?

[sl4shd0rk]

I thought it was just drugs and guns? Huhmm.. Ironic.

Re:They have laws in costa rica?

[agpiedra]

what do you know about Costa Rica? It seems that nothing. Please read a bit about it (I hope you are capable enough to browse the internet) and try to be less stupid and ignorant.

Costa Rica Setting Precedent

[Bloodmoon1]

Seems Costa Rica may make it a crime to make Internet-based phone calls. It would be a shame if this sets a precedent of setting legistlation that would seriously stunt the growth of these emerging technologies that should be making communication cheaper and easier, not harder and illegal. Now, before I say this, I want to point out I'm seriously not trying to be a dick.

That being said, I don't think any country really, but especially America and Western Europe, as well as other technologically advanced nations around the world, will ever look to Costa Rica for precedent setting on probably any issue, but especially things like this. That would make about as much sense as looking to Afganistan for space exploration practices.

Besides, we've got plenty of other things here to make VOIP illegal, like dying old telcos that still have money in their banks and congressmen in the pockets.

Re:What's the problem?

[Big_Al_B]

To Everyone: I know, I know, "don't feed the trolls". Can't help it this time. Sorry.

To Eno2001:

You, my friend, are talking out your ass from so far up in there I barely recognize the words, much less the back asswards logic of a arguing that an unregulated telephony market is a win for everyone.

Before we start, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and the Unregulated Telecommunications Industry all told me to give you a shout out from the Land of Make Believe. They're missing you.

You do understand that the "vaunted" Telecom industry revenue model is based on government regulated and tarriffed pricing, subsidies and government-supported last-mile loop monopolies? So your unregulated, service-quality based example lies opposed to both reality and your already contradictory argument: that it's not problematic to criminalize (e.g. *strictly* regulate) VoIP to protect a vaunted industry, but that industries shouldn't be hindered by "filthy hippies" or government regulations. BTW, I work in telecom, and I've never been threatened by a hippy, filthy or not.

So, should telecom be regulated, or not? You're not clear.

And your yacht example leaves me wondering one thing:

What if the Gecko disciple CEO perhaps gave up the $40 million golden parachute for getting fired (Hi Carly!) so that, oh, 8 other executives could spend 10% of their performance-based $5 million bonuses on *eight* $500,000 yachts, wouldn't that be even better for the yacht company employees?

Re:What's the problem?

[eno2001]

That's OK dude. It's not Tuesday, so this discussion no longer interests me. BTW, the Easter Bunny and Santa Claws say: "Hi"! ;P

Re:What's the problem?

[Big_Al_B]

Ah. Just noticed your [tt] journal entry. :^\

I hope it's not too late. But the article is wrong

[elpargo]

The "original" article, that i think was one from the Register, was a misread. The real original article from La Nacion, http://www.nacion.com/ln_ee/2005/febrero/12/pais1. html (it is in spanish and you have to register). Anyway it says that around 25% of phone calls to USA are made via VoIP. The whole article talks about "maybe" putting a tax into VoIP calls, and the ONLY reference it makes to ban it is a proposal to the congress made back in 1998. They have two quotes from autorities, one is from the chief lawer of ICE, the only telecomunications goverment company, which yes is a monopoly and as far as some people could say it is far far better then most private companies in the world. IMO the best goverment owned company I know. Anyway the quote says something like our company must undestand times have change, but we must penalice fraud. the only link to that is that they still don't know if VoIP could be a felony or not. THe other quote is from the Security chief, who said something like: We are going to present a plan to regulate VoIP use in Costa Rica. On a side note, you should know that they are a lot of companies of online bets based on Costa Rica, I don't have facts but maybe many of those 25% of calls are from them, calling their customers.