Music Piracy Unit Raids ISP in BitTorrent Assault

renai42 writes "Australia's music industry piracy investigations unit has raided an Internet service provider in Perth, Australia in what it says is the first Australian assault on the use of BitTorrent technology for copyright infringement. Outgoing Music Industry Piracy Investigations (MIPI) general manager, Michael Speck, said the raid was launched this afternoon at the offices of Swiftel Communications."

Comments

Arrrr!

[BJZQ8]

Arrr matey! Show me the pirates and I be on me way!

Re:Arrrr!

[OAB_X]

But they were all downloading Linux distros though and WoW patches.....

Re:Arrrr!

[Anonymous Coward]

Use the Steve Irwin voice:

I found these HUGE poirates, they grow up to six or seven feet hoigh and have these big computahs. Here's one with foity songs from that BitTawent, isn't she a beauty? Crikey, I gawts ta wank awff on that toight ass...

Re:Arrrr!

[ndtechnologies]

The sad thing about this is that the RIAA has set such a BAD example for the rest of the world. How long are we going to keep tolerating this type of stuff?

Re:Arrrr!

[phmilo]

As an educated Australian (as Australian's tend to be), I can tell you that... Steve Irwin, is a moron. He is not respected by anyone over here, especially wildlife conservationists. Even by people who have careers which bring them into close contact with crocodiles. He is despised by these people in fact. For the rest of us, Steve is just somebody to laugh and grimace at. If he is on TV I tend to watch it with the same sort of morbid curiosity that I might not be able to look away from a motor vehicle accident.

Well we have Donald Trump, Michael Jackson, and have taken on Russell Crowe and Mel Gibson from you guys (Gibson used to be better, it seems to be the locals that corrupted him). Every family has their crazy uncle.

One day, he WILL be taken by a crocodile.

Once your done with him, can we have that Croc?

Company name

[Paska]

It should be noted that the company that got raided, is now called 'People Telecom'. There former name was Swiftel.

Re:Company name

[Gentlewhisper]

Is MIPI a govt agency? Who gave them the rights to conduct random raids as they please?

Re:Company name

[Paska]

I am pretty sure they are civil, and the court order was obtained from a civil court.

This is also not the first time this sort of attack has been carried out, a year or so ago a court order was taken out against the largest ISP in Australia, Telstra

For anyone interested there is a lot more information about this People Telecom raid at http://whirlpool.net.au/

Re:Company name

[eln]

No, they are not a government agency, the government gave them a court order authorizing them to do this. Amazing how the government will allow a private corporation to search another private corporation's confidential records, isn't it? I believe similar orders have been executed by various industry groups in the US, like the BSA, and possibly the RIAA.

It's things like this that really give you the impression that government is just a tool of powerful corporations. Whatever happened to government law enforcement agencies enforcing court orders?

Re:Company name

[Atrax]

Who gave them the rights to conduct random raids as they please?

A little-used civil search law, apparently.

The raids were conducted with rarely used search warrants known as Anton Piller orders which are used exclusively in civil proceedings. No police were involved, and the record industry sent its own investigators to carry out the search and seize evidence. From the Sydney Morning Herald.

Re:Company name

[Celestial Avenger]

Anton Piller: "Finally, I'm back in the spotlight! :D"

Re:Company name

[mankey wanker]

It's The Golden Rule:
"He who has the gold makes the rules."

Democracy, Republic, Due Process, Rights - all catchy marketing phrases to disguise the ugly face of unbridled Capital.

Re:Company name

[QuantumG]

That's nuts. I found this document on lexisnexis which describes them and related "asset freezing" orders as "the law's two nuclear weapons and the greatest examples of judicial activism in our time. They strike without warning when, as is usual, they are obtained ex parte, secretly and without notice to the respondent."

That's crazy gestapo crap. I mean it's bad enough that official law enforcement agencies can do this crap but regular citizens!? Insanity.

Re:Company name

[HD Webdev]

It's things like this that really give you the impression that government is just a tool of powerful corporations. Whatever happened to government law enforcement agencies enforcing court orders?

This way the Government dodges the 'unreasonable search and seizure' rule.

They often use 3rd parties to keep from violating the Government's consititution.

For example: Let's say the Government and a criminally-minded person type person suspected I was growning marijuana. He could rob my house, steal that marijuana, show it to the Government, and could tell the Government that he that I was growing it. The Government could then easily get an 'official' warrant to search my premesis for that illegal activity.

But, the police could not do that (directly) themselves because with a good attorney, I would walk right away from the case.

The Governments of many countries use a variation of this tactic to do what they are not allowed to do directly.

They give a 3rd party the advice or permission to do something they aren't supposed to do themselves.

Re:Company name

[Husgaard]

The United States of America actually forced legislation like this on Denmark. They used the WTO (implying the threat "if you don't comply, we start a trade war").

So now anybody with a copyright, patent or trademark can raid my private home without warning if they can show that it is probable that I have infringed on their rights to the "court".

I quote "court" because the "court" that the other part has to show a probable infringement to is lower than the lowest court in Denmark. This "court" has a role somewhat similar to "sherif" in the United States.

If US people have problems understanding why some foreigners don't like the US, please take this as an example. (Personally I dislike the US government because of it, not the US people.)

Re:Company name

[QuantumG]

It's like the worse thing you can imagine.

"Gee, looks like the government isn't selling any criminal copyright laws."
"That's rediculous, we're the corporations of amercia, we have a right to buy any law we want."
"Well sorry, they aint selling em." "Ok, we'll start our own police force! Can you get us laws which give our corporate goons the power of police?"
"Oh, that's already available."
"Excellent".

Re:Company name

[Atrax]

I think it's pretty much the same here in Australia, as we've just signed a similar FTA with the US. There's been a lot of uproar about it, but the Howard government has shoehorned it through anyway.

I'm right in the middle of a book about it, so not fully versed yet, but there are apparently some DMCA-like provisions in there which may do serious damage, quite aside from the economic concerns many sectors hold.

Re:Company name

[RodgerDodger]

The evidence isn't admissible, but it is sufficient to obtain a warrant in order to find admissible evidence.

Re:Company name

[HD Webdev]

The evidence isn't admissible, but it is sufficient to obtain a warrant in order to find admissible evidence.

Exactly. It's the 3rd party dodge to get a warrant for something the Government can't get a warrant for directly themselves.

It doesn't matter if the Government can directly prosecute with what they have from the 3rd party...but it is enough for them to get an official warrant to investigate further than they normally would legally be able to do.

Re:Company name

[morleron]

I'm afraid that, for most purposes, government and corporations are indistinguishable. Here in the U.S. the MPAA and RIAA are allowed to serve John Doe warrants themselves. The situation here in the States is such that MPAA and RIAA congresscritters such as Orrin Hatch make little effort to cover up their attachment to corporations. So-called election finance reform has been shown to be a joke; corporations still buy politicians and the politicians stay bought.

The courts here in the U.S. no longer seem to pay any attention to our Constitution. The "justice" system in this country is not quite as corrupt as the legislative and executive branches of government, but that's changing. Given that the courts have not seen fit to declare unconstitutional such legislation as the DMCA, the PATRIOT ACT, and other acts that limit American's civil liberties, I don't see much hope that the situation will change for the better anytime soon.

I wonder if it might be possible to convince enough people to boycott everything produced by members of the RIAA and MPAA that we could starve the monsters that are corrupting our political and judicial systems? I think I'll start by cancelling my memberships in various CD/DVD clubs, etc. Frankly, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a move towards such actions already, at least I'm not aware of any, but would be glad to be proven wrong.

Just my $.02,
Ron

Re:Company name

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the government did not give them a court order. The court gave them the authorisation to act on the court's behalf. The government is not involved in this in any way (seperation of the court and government and all that). In fact, the gov't does not even have any say in whether or not the courts can do this - it is an inherent right of superiour courts.

Now, imagine other scenarios - such as a tobacco company destroying evidence linking smoking to cancer. It would be in the public's interest for this information to be obtained, and in such a circumstance, a Anton Piller order would make a great deal of sense.

Further, the parties (usually lawyers) are acting as officers of the courts. Thier duties to the court override any and all obligations to anyone else (including their clients).

So, it's not the Anton Piller orders themselves that are bad, nor is it the Australian government; it's just the application in this particular instance. And given that this was presented as an ISP intentionally creating a system whereby users could exchange copyrighted material, you can understand why it might be important for the court to obtain evidence immediately.

But yeah, it still sucks in this particular application.

Re:Company name

[sTalking_Goat]

So here's my question? If no Law enformement is invovled, lets say you see the corprate black suits coming up the driveway and iniate the self-destruct script (we all read Cryptonomicon right?). Is it still destroying evidence and obstructing justice?

I keep seeing that scene from Hackers when the SWAT team comes through Phantom Phreak's windows with M4's...

Re:Company name

[quarkscat]

Exactly so.

New name for the USA could/should be: People's
Democratic Republic of the United States of
North America and the Middle East. Except for
the fact that we have open borders, all the other
pieces seem to be fitting together well: secret
police that spy on everyone, need permission to
travel (fly), and (coming soon) national identity
card ("... your papers, please..."). The only
problem with this whole scenario is the stalinist
tilt -- because everyone not wearing blinders, or
in a drug-induced trance should realize that the
USA has become a Corporate National Socialist
state. A government by and of the corporation,
for the people.

Re:Company name

[timmarhy]

i'd just tell them to fuck off and get off my property. i'd call 000 and say i'm being robbed please send the cops.

Re:Company name

[cryptoluddite]

Personally I dislike the US government because of it, not the US people.

Americans get to vote on the federal government at least once every two years. Combine that with state referendums and offices and that's a lot of voting. So no, you should not have a problem with individual Americans, but you should a big problem with "the US people." We voted for all these unconstitutional laws and so-called leaders.

As a citizen I can say that you should dislike the American people as a whole. Ultimately the buck stops here and we are the ones responsible for our government (at least for now).

Re:Company name

[killjoe]

The people have been pretty much programmed to buy whatever the television is selling.

It strikes me as ironic that the govt is fighting to put the ten commandments in schools and public places. I wonder what will happen to a generation of students who walk by a sign that says "thou shall not covet" every day. I wonder if it would make a difference in the consumer society?

Probably not, it's not like anybody really pays attention to that crap. If they did the streets would be empty on sunday.

Re:Company name

[rtb61]

But whose records are they the companies records or the customers of the companies records.

Re:Company name

[Jedi Alec]

(Personally I dislike the US government because of it, not the US people.)

Those same people we get to see on tv loudly cheering folks like George W.? The same electorate that put him into office 2 times in a row? The people choose their leaders, the people are to blame if the leaders are selected on criteria such as the color of their suit, the whiteness of their teeth and their ability to be upstanding, church-going(separation of church and state?), god-fearing citizens. I blame the people. And not just for voting Bush, but for accepting this ridiculous 2 party system for all this time. Thank *insert random deity* here I live in a country with at least 5 decently-sized parties.

Re:Company name

[rapoZa]

Our chief weapon is asset freezing...surprise and asset freezing...asset freezing and surprise....
Amongst our nuclear weaponry...are such elements as asset freezing, surprise.... I'll come in again.

Re:Company name

[ifranky]

Ya daft lefties...

Re:Company name

[Zemran]

[ steal that marijuana ]

Then you have not got any so you are no longer growing it....

Re:Company name

[Pieroxy]

I find this quite stupid as all candidates to the elections would have done the same anyways. Elections are just an illusion.

Re:Company name

[Anonymous Coward]

But the US government is just the shadow, not the substance.
Ultimately what it all comes down to is corporate interests.

Iraq wasn't invaded in order to bring freedom to the Iraqi people, it was invaded in order to transform it into a more corporate friendly environment, to open up new markets.

Likewise, when the US government forces various copyright laws on other countries (this isn't the first time that's happened), the government just acts as a proxy for the recording industry.

Re:Company name

[mike2R]

Try looking up delusional in the dictionary. It can be spelled P-a-t-r-i-o-t A-c-t or D-M-C-A.

Re:Company name

[iamwahoo2]

The US Government did not do that. Individuals and companies from the US may have applied the pressure, but the US govt. is not going to start a trade war with a European country over a law which we do not even have in our own country.

Re:Company name

[northcat]

USA is a democracy. The goverment represents the people. If the government does something wrong, the blame should go to the people.

Re:Company name

[HalliS]

I fount a "Proposal for a DIRECTIVE OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL on measures and procedures to ensure the enforcement of intellectual property rights", I don't think it has been approved yet, but it gives companies in the member states these kind of enforcement rights.

I hope this will not be made into a directive, it goes against so many individual rights.

Re:Company name

[wing03]

It strikes me as ironic that the govt is fighting to put the ten commandments in schools and public places. I wonder what will happen to a generation of students who walk by a sign that says "thou shall not covet" every day. I wonder if it would make a difference in the consumer society?

A media commentator said it best recently in that with America and the neo conservatives, God only loves the rich, powerfull and corporate America.

Re:Company name

[stinerman]

You indirectly bring up an interesting point. Namely, what is the "breaking point" of the average US citizen?

I've asked my less politically aware friends questions like "how bad would it have to get for you to 'do something' (write to congress, get politically active, anything semi-subversive)?" Most of them say that nothing they would ever do would matter, so staying put and keeping their mouths shut is the best way to go through life.

But all the same, I wonder what event could create a critical mass of disgruntled citizens that would be up for some serious reform.

Re:Company name

[wing03]

We voted for all these unconstitutional laws and so-called leaders.

IIRC, wasn't it great rifts between the rich and the poor that caused revolutions and the toppling of the many powers that be in the past?

Bertrand Russell wrote "Religion in any shape or form, is regarded as pernicious and deliberate falsehood, spread and encouraged by rulers and clerics in their own interests, since it is easier to control over the ignorant." which led to Marx's comment about Religion being the opium to the masses.

It would seem the most successfull religion in the western world, if not the entire world is Capitalism. The rulers are the ones in political power whereas its clerics are the boards and management of corporations.

IMO, communism was a great idea.... on paper. Perenial high school favourite "Animal Farm" shows where it goes wrong.

Capitalism isn't without its pitfalls either as we see it going awry with private corporations in control of the state and its people. The opium here is the belief that anyone can achieve greatness in capitalism if they work hard. However, with monopolies and oligopolies protecting themselves from competition, there's little room at the top for an ever increasing population. Room is there for some competition but if you happen to become moderately good and if you start to threaten them, they shut you down by either buying you out or burying you. With a preference on the buying out since it feeds more into the illusion that anyone and everyone can break out of the ranks of the poor working class.

But, I suppose with every rising and falling of civilizations throughout time, this one will see its end either from an internal revolt or some product(s) of our advancement which our world becomes deeply dependent proves dangerous to us amd kills us off.

Re:Company name

[stinerman]

you should not have a problem with individual Americans, but you should a big problem with "the US people."

This odd problem is most likely due to the rampant gerrymandering of districts which tends to overrepresent the majority and underrepresent the minority. One would assume that since House members get re-elected at a ~95% rate every two years, Americans think their government is great. Of course, this is not the case. Most people think their local member is great, but consider the other members of congress to be "liars, crooks, etc."

A paper I read made mention that with clever gerrymandering, a party with 25% of the support could gain 75% of the districts. Simply pack your opponent into 100% strength districts and spread yourself over ~%50 districts.

We voted for all these unconstitutional laws and so-called leaders.

Speak for yourself. There is not a single politician in power for whom I voted (barring no-contest races).

Re:Company name

[Suidae]

The opium here is the belief that anyone can achieve greatness in capitalism if they work hard

Actually, this is true. Anyone can achieve greatness. The trick is not in the hard work, but in knowing with and on whom one should be working. Obviously some are better positioned to learn how and make the necessary contacts (e.g., children of successful parents), some lack the necessary mental discipline and some just get screwed by random chance, but really, anyone can play the game.

Its similar to sports, if you have some natural ability, can learn how to train effectively, can avoid injury, and can learn not just the rules in the book, which are available to everyone, but also the mental and social games, you can become a top level player.

Re:Company name

[corsican]

Or, to quote a certain Canadian:

"For the words of the profits were written on the studio walls, concert halls. And echoes with the sounds of salesmen."

Re:Company name

[tepples]

because everyone not wearing blinders, or in a drug-induced trance should realize that the USA has become a Corporate National Socialist state.

Godwin's law?

Re:Company name

[larytet]

The evidence isn't admissible, but it is sufficient to obtain a warrant in order to find admissible evidence.

lets say that i use network containing proxys. lets assume also that performance of the network is comparable to BT. If adversary comes to me (and i am lucky enough to destroy my hard disk using something like this BAT file http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/larytet/CVSR OOT/rodi/java/tools/bigRedButton.bat?rev=1.5&view= log) i can argue that my desktop is only a bouncer (proxy) and in case of Rodi network my desktop is proxy only for the control packets and not even for the "sensitive" data.

After a couple of cases like these the evidence will not be considered "sufficient". Adversary will have to tap (log) the whole icnoming and outgoing traffic from multiple nodes and this can not be done en mase using device on the edge of the network. it will require cooperation of ISPs and warrants on wiretapping ala those which FBI receives

such network exists (not network, but fully functional client) http://larytet.sourceforge.net/rodiAnonymity.shtml

Re:Company name

[Anonym1ty]

I find this quite stupid as all candidates to the elections would have done the same anyways. Elections are just an illusion.

The problem with your statement is that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's people like you that cause the very problems you point out.

When people become disenchanted with democracy and claim it doesn't matter anyway... then the also do not vote and in the end they are right it really doesn't matter since they did not participate.

Re:Company name

[FredMertz]

> Bertrand Russell wrote ... which led to Marx's comment ...

Just a minor quibble, but Bertrand Russell lived from 1872-1970, while Marx lived from 1818-1883, so unless Russell was a remarkably perceptive 11 year old, the Marx quote came first. :)

Interestingly, I was trying to find exact dates for the two quotes and came across this, alleging that Marx was misquoted:

"Religion is the opiate of the masses." - Karl Marx

Correct quote: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." Marx's intended meaning is subtler than the misquote would suggest.

Anyways, chronological issues aside, I agree with the main point of your post. :)

Re:Company name

[wing03]

Just a minor quibble, but Bertrand Russell lived from 1872-1970, while Marx lived from 1818-1883, so unless Russell was a remarkably perceptive 11 year old, the Marx quote came first. :)

Gotta love the interweb. I googled "religion opium for the masses" and found a page with Russell's quote as what inspired Marx.

Oh well, back to my Britannica set in my parents' basement.... 8)

Re:Company name

[QuantumG]

I'm only going to say this one more time: We don't have criminal copyright laws in Australia!! And private investigators are normal people.

Re:Company name

[npsimons]

We voted for all these unconstitutional laws and so-called leaders.

BULLSHIT! I never voted for any of these asses now in office, and I certainly didn't vote for these unconstitutional laws. Two major ways things came to be the way they are: One, "he who has the gold makes the rules", ie money = power and all the voting in the world won't change the fact that most (if not all) of our politicians have been bribed to go against not only the will of the people, but the good of society.

Two, as another slashdot poster's signature so insightfully puts it: "I've found the flaw in democracy. It's stupid people. Vast masses of stupid people". Even if the government wasn't corrupt and bought out, we'd still have tens of millions of people voting on some so-called moral high ground (witness the last presidential election).

As a citizen I can say that you should dislike the American people as a whole. Ultimately the buck stops here and we are the ones responsible for our government (at least for now).

Don't dislike Americans because we are Americans. Dislike people on a per person basis based on their actions, and even then realize that people can change. Anything else is pure bigotry. And BTW, we stopped being responsible for our government when it decided that the government needed to be responsible for us, and didn't need any oversight of itself. The US is no longer a government "of the people, by the people and for the people" and hasn't been for a while.

Good!!

[I'm Don Giovanni]

Pirates give legit BitTorrent users a bad name.

Re:Good!!

[essence]

Pirates give legit BitTorrent users a bad name.

Pirates are legit users. People fight this stupid IP/Copyright bullshit by continuing to copy and share information.

Pirate is just a word for "terrorist light".

Re:Good!!

[djfray]

"Pirates are legit users. People fight this stupid IP/Copyright bullshit by continuing to copy and share information. "

Pirates are most certainly not legit users. Sure, they believe that you shouldn't have to pay for entertainment that artists and or professionals spent time on, in the pursuit of earning money, to feed themselves, get richer, or whatever. You don't like the idea of Microsoft stealing code that was written for Linux, or is owned and created by other people, do you? Music is just the same. Piracy is simply theft, and continued theft is not the answer. If you have a problem with intellectual property and copyright laws you should become active in telling your friends, family members, and congressmen(if your in the states, otherwise adjust accordingly) how you think it should be, and why they should agree with you.

WTF

[Turn-X Alphonse]

WTF is ANY company doing raiding an ISP? Surely this is something for the police or licenced people with a warrant to do..

Re:WTF

[Rii]

That may be how law works in America, but Australia may be different. Any Aussies out there that can explain how that works? Corporate police sound very creepy to me... The closes we have here are pseudocops with "RIAA" jackets harrasing street vendors of counterfit DVDs.

Re:WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

What if the raidee has all disks encrypted?

Re:WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

Anton Piller orders still have to be granted by the courts - companies cannot just raid their targets.

Also there has to be some proof provided by the raider to the court that there's a likelihood that evidence would be destroyed were the target to be informed in advance.

Sharman Networks (of Kazaa fame) is currently battling this in the Aussie courts as they were willingly handing documents over in the US court action (hence no risk of destruction). RIAA (or MPAA or whoever it was) may be in real trouble if it's found they willingly withheld this information in their application to the courts.

Re:WTF

[Brandybuck]

Aaargh! I'm wrong! In Australia a corporation really can conduct raids. Well roll me in grits and call me cornpone!

Re:WTF

[GigsVT]

Australia doesn't have a bill of rights. The government can do as it pleases.

Re:WTF

[Brandybuck]

I've already paid up to everyone who accepted the bet. Where were you?

Re:WTF

[databyss]

I'll bet two RIAA settlements and half a donut

Starting post with arrogance: Check


this is merely ZDNet's inability to differentiate between journalism and editorializing.

Attack of major corporation: Check


Of course, they are hardly alone in this deficient behavior, and are in the company of many prestigious (and formerly prestigious) media outlets.

Attack of major media: Check


It's obvious to all but the tinhat crowd (and ZDNet)

Attack of /. general public: Check
Second attack of major corporation: BONUS!!


that the police did the raid.

Arrogance of knowledge of another country's legal system: Check

Re:WTF

[1000StonedMonkeys]

How does that work though? Surely they aren't allowed to use force, and I can't imagine someone is going to open the door for them...

Re:WTF

[Atrax]

Australia doesn't have a bill of rights.

Correct

The government can do as it pleases.

Not correct. There is plenty of accountability. Australia is not an autocratic state lacking checks and balances by any means. If a government oversteps its mark, there are numerous avenues by which they can be constrained.

Re:WTF

[the_proton]

From the Sydney Morning Herald article:

The raids were conducted with rarely used search warrants known as Anton Piller orders which are used exclusively in civil proceedings. No police were involved, and the record industry sent its own investigators to carry out the search and seize evidence.

There's a bit of an explanation of an Anton Piller order here:
http://www.mgrewal.com/anton.htm and some information on how the federal court decides if they should make such an order is available here: http://www.fedcourt.gov.au/how/practice_notes_cj10 .htm

- proton

Re:WTF

[mumblestheclown]

and if they do, it's "don't the police have rapists and murderers to catch?"

it's called the slashdot two-step! anybody can dance to it. the idea is just to keep moving with your keyboards in any way you can to justify piracy.

For example, in response to this message, you can ignore the main point, and concentrate on the minor linguisitc point that I used the term "piracy" instead of "copyright infringement." See, you can do it.. it's easy!

Re:WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a court order - if you refuse, you're subject to contempt of court. You ARE allowed to delay entry until you arrange your legal representation to show up but this must be done within a reasonable time.

Re:WTF

[R.Caley]

Australia doesn't have a bill of rights. The government can do as it pleases.

The USA does have a bill of rights, and the government can do as it pleases.

John Marshall has made his decision. Now let him enforce it.
-- Andrew Jackson

Re:WTF

[stinerman]

I don't need any special skills to justify "piracy". I have my own morals and ethical principles to guide me.

Re:WTF

[R.Caley]

the government ignores "the pursuit of happiness" [...] So, how does this Bill of Rights protect you in modern America?

This might make some sense if the words "the pursuit of happiness" were actually in the bill of rights.

As it is I have to suspect you have been persuing happiness a little too much today:-).

Re:WTF

[Abcd1234]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Australia likely operates in a way similar to the British system of law. In this case, the "bill of rights" is really composed of past precedent combined with the laws of the state. The most obvious example of this being the Magna Carta. Thus, while there is no single source document, the concept of "human rights" does exist. And, unless a law specifically says otherwise, the government may not violate those laws any more than a citizen can.

Re:WTF

[Atrax]

As far as I'm aware, that's pretty much spot on.

Re:WTF

[stinerman]

Sometimes theft is ethical. One instance that most people will agree with is when someone is starving and steals food. Another is the theft of medicine if it will save your life. I think most people would agree that if 'substance A' will save your life, you are in the right to take it if you cannot pay.

Of course, downloading music is not a life or death matter, and I don't claim that it is. My point is that the world is not as black and white as you wish it to be.

Time to switch...

[swiltse]

Guess it's time for file-sharing Aussies to switch to AOL.

MUTE

[Neo-Rio-101]

Assuming that raid become common practice in the future of the internet, one may actually be surprised that P2P apps are trying to work their way out of having their owners IP addresses traced.

I was surprised (but really, should I be?) to see these kinds of projects. Check out the MUTE project here.

Re:MUTE

[Husgaard]

Interesting, but trying to avoid the law is IMHO not a solution.

Trying to change the law is what we need to do.

Re:MUTE

[Lord Kano]

Civil disobedience is one way to change the law.

Granted, most people who are ripping off music and movies over the internet aren't doing it to make some kind of statement, but even the freeloaders are helping.

LK

Re:MUTE

[Capt'n Hector]

"Trying to change the law is what we need to do."

And that would make MUTE moot.

Re:MUTE

[Husgaard]

Civil disobedience is one way to change the law.

Civil disobedience is when somebody proudly breaks the law and publicly stands up to it, not when somebody tries to break the law and get away with it.

Still you have a point. Laws are meant to maintain and uphold the society. If they criminalize large portions of society, something is wrong with the law.

Re:MUTE

[OblivionExpress]

The "Law" is this case is corporate mega-money induced extensions to the law. Since law makers will always give priority to the mega-money holders /contibutors... having a "let's change the laws" attitude is very naive and will never work unless you happen to have more money than your opponents.

Re:MUTE

[AstrumPreliator]

I think the first law that needs to be changed, at least for the Australians, are these "Anton Piller orders". What kind of moronic branch of the government would give a company/group/individual the ability to independently search another when they have a vested interest in the outcome? That's like letting a murdered person's family be on the jury that convicts the accused.

Re:MUTE

[rhizome]

>Trying to change the law is what we need to do.

No, either the music industry or the copyright offices need to get off their fat, money-soaked asses and come up with a workable licensing scheme that doesn't turn huge chunks of the country's citizens into criminals. But, as noted in another story, the record companies are using these suits for revenue more than abatement, so don't worry about the Anton Pillar orders going away soon.

Re:MUTE

[Kjella]

I definately see ways for MUTE to be broken. Anyway, there is no doubt that in order to provide anonymity, there will be a sacrifice in speed. IP is operated on the principle of one source, one destination. The few (and sorry, but lame) attempts of hiding your IP via invalid source/destination IPs will not work, as ISPs would start filtering each connection to only actually use their assigned IP.

The only practical solution is to ensure that the IP source might not be the real source, and the destination IP not be the real destination. This means intermediaries, where the penalty is about 1/n where n is average path length. Which isn't so bad, really. 1/5-1/10 should be enough. Even less if only the source needs to be anonymous, maybe 1/3-1/5.

The real problem is that noone has found a way to self-organize such a network. Freenet (sigh) is doing something like 1/100-1/1000 or worse. And it seems to be getting worse the bigger the network gets (seeing as how the dev network always works better because it is smaller).

Kjella

Re:MUTE

[trewornan]

Encryption is our friend . . . encrypted communications, encrypted distributed networks, encrypted disk storage (preferably something like rubberhose), plausible deniability (like freenet). Fuck these people - come on - we're geeks we can stay ten steps ahead of them if we try.

Re:MUTE

[happymedium]

Indeed. VCL (Voluntary Collective Licensing) is the way to go. Customers pay ASCAP or some neutral third party a flat fee every month, which then distributes the cash to labels in proportion to the popularity of each label's songs on the network.

ISPs could easily collect the fee, selling it as an "extra" service, like premium cable. And since the resulting network would be sponsored by the labels, they could develop something uber-fast, making it actually more efficient than FastTrack or BitTorrent or what-have-you. For $10 a month, it would be easier than piracy, and if most Internet users signed up for it, there would be little incentive to pirate from friends. Also, because customers would be transferring the files to each other, the labels would have to pay very, very little to distribute potentially a lot more music than they are doing now.

Re:MUTE

[tepples]

And since the resulting [authorized recorded music trading] network would be sponsored by the labels, they could develop something uber-fast, making it actually more efficient than FastTrack or BitTorrent or what-have-you. For $10 a month

That's called Roxio Napster, in countries where it is available. There's also SNOCAP, an effort to ride on top of existing file-sharing networks.

Re:MUTE

[trewornan]

a) Copyright infringement is not a criminal offence in most countries except under very specific circumstances which would not apply to a downloader. Downloaders are therefore NOT criminals.

b) Theft: To take or remove property without the owners consent with intent to permanently deprive the owner of possession. Is clearly not applicable to downloading either.

SMH Article

[Atrax]

here, which makes some mention of the law this was carried out under.

"The raids were conducted with rarely used search warrants known as Anton Piller orders which are used exclusively in civil proceedings. No police were involved, and the record industry sent its own investigators to carry out the search and seize evidence."

Re:SMH Article

[tqft]

Our mate (NOT) John Howard PM, cricket tragic and major wanker, decided after a massacre (Port Arthur) by a nutter to basically restrict gun rights.

Mandatory buybacks of most types of weapons.

Try this http://members.ozemail.com.au/~confiles/buyback.ht ml

Not effective, was cammed - only outlaws now have guns. Unless you are farmer (Howard voter) or a sporting shooter who has access to a major safe

Re:SMH Article

[Atrax]

Fair enough, but I still don't see what the hell a gun buyback has to do with an ISP being raided under a civil warrant in order to gather evidence for an intended civil suit.

I'm no friend of Johnny H myself, but you're just way OT with this one.

Re:SMH Article

[Squozen]

That's funny. I'm pretty sure I remember marching with 100,000 other people down the streets of Melbourne demanding tighter gun control.

Re:SMH Article

[Kris_J]

Were I running a company, any individual could show me what they liked, but without any form of official-looking ID (think Police badge) they would not be allowed past reception as I would assume it to be false.

It's fairly unbelievable that private individuals can gain access to other people's property when a judge has heard only one side of the story. Served with papers to appear in court, sure, but search and seizure? That's a bit of a worry.

Deja Vu...

[ErikZ]

For some reason I see the scene from Ghostbusters where the EPA barges into their business:

"Turn it off! Turn it all off!"

Re:Deja Vu...

[Celestial Avenger]

I believe we can compare the entire RIAA and MPAA to that solitary EPA dickhead that released a shitload of monsters from that ecto-chamber thing all over the city.

If I remember the story right, all we need to do is get the New York City Mayor or an equivalent politician to bludgeon the MPAA & RIAA and everything should be back to normal.. aside from the giant Marshmallow man.

Dear God what is in these pain pills? *GULP'D*

Re:Deja Vu...

[AliasMoze]

Venkman: No.
Peck: Why not?
Venkman: You didn't use the magic word.
Peck: And what is the magic word?
Venkman: Please.
Peck: May I please see the torrents, Mr. Venkman?
Venkman: Why do you want to see the torrents?

Raiders

[datafr0g]

"Music Piracy Unit Raids ISP in BitTorrent Assault" Those crazy MPU guys with their ISP Assaulting BitTorrent Raids. The real crime was their low ratio.

Discussions on Whirlpool

[The Qube]

There are more details on the case on Whirlpool (Australia's broadband discussion website).

There's also a discussion on Whirlpool's and Swiftel/People Telcom's forums.

Not going after users by the look of it

[Anonymous Coward]

Although they're raiding an ISP, the article seems to indicate that the company is in trouble because it owns the sites that were bittorrenting/giving access to bittorrents of copyrighted material. That doesn't seem too drastic to me. Anyone whose business model is piracy has to expect to be hunted across the commercial high seas.

What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[mark-t]

Bittorent is a tool.

It's sorta like saying that "Before being apprehended, the chainsaw murderer went after the victims with a 2 HorsePower Black-and-Decker Deluxe Model Chainsaw (available at hardware stores near you)"

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[Laivincolmo]

While BitTorrent has great applications for legal file distribution, the vast majority of people do not use it for that. In reality the average person using it is not too interested in downloading the latest liveCD release of Gnome 2.10. My only wish is that somehow peer to peer technology could be adapted to please both parties (eg low price downloads/direct compensation to creators). Perhaps BitTorrent could play some good in this role..

And while the invasion of an ISP by a company may seem like bad tidings for the cause of free distribution of information... the ISP kind of brought it on themselves by owning a website promoting the distribution of currently illegal downloadable material.

Free iMac Mini

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[mcbridematt]

Yep, just because you can use it to pirate something doesn't mean its illegal, and the recording industry can't grasp that.

In Australia, a pratice used by some ISPs to attract users is to offer free/'unmetered' traffic to certain desintations, in People Telecoms (was known as Swiftel's case), unmetered traffic between users.(there aren't any 'completely unlimited' broadband plans in Australia yet, because the main DSL wholesaler and monopoly Telco, Telstra, charges an arm and leg to transport data over their network. Thats ~$900AU to have a 1500/256 connection download at 150k constantly. ISPs have offered user-to-user, peering exchange or ISP mirror/server traffic as some ways to differentiate themselves without blowing the bank.)

And what do the ISP fanboys do? Set up their own DC++ or Bittorrent trackers. This is what happened here. People Telecom was acting as the common carrier, nothing else.

I should do what Linux Australia did: distribute open software with names matching hollywood movies and threaten to sue them every time a fake C&D comes. Repeat until it costs more to defend a fake C&D than issue another potentially fake ones.

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[1u3hr]

And was it even Bittorrent? Halfway through TFA they're talking about Direct Connect, which seems to be what was actually being used.

Has "Bitorrent" become a gneric meaning "P2P" in the media now?

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[Sancho]

The same could be said of the Internet in general. I've heard estimates that 1/3 of all Internet traffic is Bittorrent. If we can then assume that 1/6 + .0001% of all Internet traffic is non-Bittorrent copyright-violating filesharing, then you could s/BitTorrent/the Internet/ in your post and it would remain true. Given the huge piracy outlet on Usenet, I don't think it's that unreasonable an assumption.

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[mark-t]

I think Direct Connect is an end-user P2P app that employs BitTorrent for doing the actual data transfers. Don't quote me on that though... I'm not familiar with Direct Connect at all.

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[mark-t]

Why bother threatening to sue when a C&D comes? Wouldn't it just be much more fun to simply tell them you aren't breaking the law in the first place, then carry on? If they still try to take you to court you can't be accused of unnecessarily costing them legal fees because you previously _did_ try to tell them that you weren't breaking the law (keep all records of these communications). So the case would get thrown out of court immediately, and at no cost to yourself. Really, if you want to stick it to these guys, that way would be a whole lot more fun.

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[Stonehand]

Your post is rather irrelevant, considering that this raid was regarding an instance of a /use/ of BitTorrent and not the concept or original system design of BitTorrent in general.

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[Sycraft-fu]

I dunno, 3dgamers.com, a popular demos/patch/etc site uses it as their primary distribution method. I really have little intrest in illegally copying games or whatever with it, easier to just go buy them and they aren't that expensive. However I find that plenty of legit free stuff I want is either very slow without bittorrent, or simply won't allow me to have it at all without bittorrent.

For that matter, when a patch for World of Warcraft comes out, their patcher fires up and starts, you guessed it, a bittorrent session. Good thinking too, as patch release days are always brutally slow, but it's hard to justify enough bandwidth full time since you don't need it that often. They'll give you the option to hot use it, but it goes quite slow.

So seems to me that bittorrent has plenty of legit uses. It is just an intelligent extension of HTTP, after all.

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[trawg]

I wholeheartedly agree.

This raid happened because the people involved were running some (tiny little) pirate ring. The fact that they were using BitTorrent is practically irrelevant - the MPAA isn't trying to blanket ban p2p.

This headline seems to be unneccessarily, Fox News-esque alarmist :)

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[CableModemSniper]

I'm not familiar with Direct Connect at all.

Obviously

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[shark72]

" Yep, just because you can use it to pirate something doesn't mean its illegal, and the recording industry can't grasp that."

Why do you say that? They went after the tracker site with the pirated material, not the BitTorrent technology itself, not the concept behind P2P, not Bram. In the meantime, tracker sites that take the care to offer only permission-based torrents are not being hassled because they are doing nothing wrong. It seems like the recording industry gets the distinction just fine, and that you are employing a straw man.

Likewise, when the police bust a child pornographer, they are nailing the person, and not the art of photogaphy as a whole, and not the technology of photons hitting a CCD sensor.

Re:What does bittorrent have to do with this?

[chthon]

And the other 2/3 are probably spam...

"WTF, mate"

[deltatype0]

Well you know, we gotta fight terrorism on a global scale and get every country involved says Bush. Of course that is after piracy = terrorism, which isn't far off I imagine, I'm waiting for the RIAA/MPAA to slip some clause into a bill that pretty much gives them complete legal authority to break down doors.

Re:"WTF, mate"

[F13]

Of course that is after piracy = terrorism, which isn't far off I imagine...

Yeah not far at all.

Re:"WTF, mate"

[deltatype0]

wow, that is pretty messed up, sure they COULD sell illegal material for profit, I have a buddy in Iraq who says there are people out there who sell bootleg DVD's and CD's daily, some it could be finding its way to insurgents, but most of it is probably just people trying to make a few bucks. Here though, it's just an issue of people using their internet to download stuff for free, I imagine there aren't that many who then attempt to resell it, as they're more likely to get caught then just passing it to friends.

Re:"WTF, mate"

[DarKry]

Does this mean the RIAA putta the jihad on us?

Durka durka music jihad.

Re:"WTF, mate"

[Zareste]

lol, wow. I wonder who will be the first person shot to death after copying data? Hung maybe? Could just go easy on them and cut off their hand. The president of RIAA will probably have heads mounted on his wall as trophies. Gotta protect the public, after all.

Anton Piller order

[Husgaard]

An Anton Piller order is a court order giving one party in an upcoming civil copyright/patent/trademark case the right to raid the other party without notice to look for evidence.

Here is the Wikipedia explanation

And here is how it is done in Australia

It is considered the "atomic bomb" of IP rights enforcement, and is quite old. Because the defendent is not heard before the raid, it was removed from most laws until the new wave of harsh IP enforcement.

In Denmark this was implemented a few years ago due to pressure from the United States. This is another reason I do not like the US government: Now anybody having copyright, patents or trademarks can raid my private home if they can prove that it is likely that their rights were infringed upon.

Re:Anton Piller order

[Atrax]

Thanks for the expansion.

It's worrying to me that such laws exist in civil cases, but it hardly surprises me that ARIA would employ whatever tactics are available in their ongoing war on file sharing.

The details of the case suggest that the raid was carried out because the domain names of some torrent hubs were registered to swiftel (rather than a user of swiftel) - or at least that's my interpretation - and if this is true then I'd see that as a pretty dumb move on the part of the ISP.

Re:Anton Piller order

[OneArmedMan]

what is *less bad*

contempt of court and destroy the evidence

or let them in and get caught doing something

Re:Anton Piller order

[LnxAddct]

Not everything can be blamed on the US. Most governments want laws like this. They usually don't have the balls to say so and the U.S. is a nice big target for justification. If they really didnt want then it would have never been implemented.
Regards,
Steve

Re:Anton Piller order

[Atrax]

well, that would obviously depend on what you're doing. if you're confident of getting away with it, let the bastards in, and watch them like a hawk for any breech of proprietary information, including subscriber information, confidential business stuff etc.. If you're not confident at all, go the contempt of court and get rid of the evidence.

Not that *I* think like this of course...

Re:Anton Piller order

[Hao Wu]

If it's your own home, you could stand there fully nude, and maybe they won't stay very long.

Re:Anton Piller order

[m50d]

Don't let them in then? Contempt of court is iirc ~£40 fine, nothing next to the cost of settling with the likes of the RIAA.

Re:Anton Piller order

[m50d]

Yes, but Canadian and Australian law is mostly pretty similar to British, so the offenses are likely to be similar. The reason it's low is that contempt of court can be something really trivial, like, I don't know, talking in the public gallery or refusing to remove your hat. But maybe it varies based on the offense, so you'd get a far bigger penalty in this case.

For those of you who saw Boiler Room

[CarlinWithers]

I can't wait till file-sharing raids get screentime in a Hollywood movie. Especially considering how technically literate movie directors are.

A raid! Quick hide those torrents!

The actors proceed to furiously bury floppies in desk drawers.

Re:For those of you who saw Boiler Room

[Ohreally_factor]

Nonono! They try to burn print outs with the words IP LOGS clearly emblazoned across the top.

I didn't see Boiler Room, but I've seen enough bookies get busted on TV. =)

Re:For those of you who saw Boiler Room

[Canberra Bob]

Boiler Room had nothing to do with bookies - a boiler room is a dodgy stockbroking firm that tries to push dodgy stocks onto unsuspecting people.

Re:For those of you who saw Boiler Room

[Zareste]

Well you can imagine which side will have be the protagonist. The Raidinator! A coin-operated cyborg who must heroically save the world from an apocalyptic future where people copy 1's and 0's without giving their life savings large corporations!! It ends now! There will be huge explosions and product placement for pills and clothes at low low prices.
"Come with me if you want to - please insert quarter to hear the rest of this message."

Re:For those of you who saw Boiler Room

[sTalking_Goat]

Th electromagnet thing should work, but I've never been bored enough to test it. The CD in the microwave I hear is unreliable.

Re:For those of you who saw Boiler Room

[Ohreally_factor]

I knew what it was about.

But it's the same idea. My imagery was just a bit sillier than yours was (and more in line with your typical Hollywood lamer idea of computers. (This is Unix! I know this!)

I remember hearing something good about the writer/director (of Boiler Room), but I don't think he's done anything since. He was supposed to be up and coming and like that.

Make no mistake...

[lendude]

This has bugger all to do with catching 'offending' P2P/BitTorrent end users, and everything to do with the MIPI ramping up the FUD so as to create an atmosphere of fear of litigation amongst ISP's, driving a push towards ISP's 'voluntarily' screwing down what end users do on the network. i.e. doing the MIPI's job for them. Fuck using current legislation which is wholly appropriate - too much trouble to tag individuals by due process: might as well scare the shit out of ISP's with litigious fear mongering and close-to-libelous PR (I'd love to see that tested in a court of law).

And Music Industry 'Piracy' Investigations for a title? What about Music Industry Copyright Investigations as a more correct name - oops, too easy to take the MICI out of them.

Re:Make no mistake...

[shark72]

"This has bugger all to do with catching 'offending' P2P/BitTorrent end users, and everything to do with the MIPI ramping up the FUD so as to create an atmosphere of fear of litigation amongst ISP's, driving a push towards ISP's 'voluntarily' screwing down what end users do on the network. i.e. doing the MIPI's job for them. Fuck using current legislation which is wholly appropriate - too much trouble to tag individuals by due process: might as well scare the shit out of ISP's with litigious fear mongering and close-to-libelous PR (I'd love to see that tested in a court of law)."

It's important to note that the ISP itself was running the torrent site that specialized in pirated material. This is not an instance where the ISP was raided because of what its subscribers were doing unbeknownst to the ISP.

Re:Make no mistake...

[lendude]

Well that would be important to note if it were fact. The ZDnet article is a straight obedient lift from whatever PR releases MIPI put out.

Sites like Whirlpool http://www.whirlpool.net.au/ indicate that the BitTorrent site originated from a user forum which posted the tracker, and the 'specialized' Archie's Web site was a DC hub IP filtered to Swiftel's addresses by it's originator, most likely a client. The MIPI is taking the filtering as evidence it's Swiftel's doing, which is based on some specious logic, particularly when they announced it before they had even raided the place and ascertained exactly what was taking place.

I miss Bernadette Taylor

[w1r3sp33d]

I guess she was not only our hot spokeswoman, but also the last line of defense when it comes to keeping the Australian government in check.

This happened in Perth to boot, insulting.

Re:I miss Bernadette Taylor

[haakon]

Does anyone know what happend to her? She was very cool.

The story

[Anonymous Coward]

Many broadband ISP in Australia have uncounted content (does not coun't towards download quota) between users of the same state or where an ISP peers with an internet exchange (eg waix, pipe). This, in combination with often low download limits from ISPs, has lead to a situation where users of this ISP in question had setup bittorrent and direct connect facilities/servers for other users on their own computers (servers and the like are allowed on user connection in this ISP's respective AUP). This way they could exchange files without affecting their quota.

The people who raided the ISP in particular believed that the ISP had setup the P2P facilities for the users (which isn't the case).

Interestingly the hubs and groups who were using these facilities were pretty low key, you would be lucky to find two or three seeders per torrent (for example). I am amazed that they even botherd to do the raids, the people involved number in the dozens only. We aren't talking a Aussie suprnova or anything...

Posting anon for obvious reasons.

Re:The story

[dbIII]

I am amazed that they even botherd to do the raids, the people involved number in the dozens only

They want to se an "example", since they keep crying poor about how much extra money could be made without filesharing, while I think the reality is most people wouldn't bother to buy even a small fraction of the stuff they download. I think in their view it's important for them to be seen to catch people since its seen as the first set to get all these extra but mythical dollars.

If someone spung this crap on me I would like to think I'd try to get the police to get them off the premises for trespass - but I suspect that wouldn't be possible. It's a bit of a shock to find that someone with no police or legal training can do search and seizure in Australia. At least one high profile music industry people has openly boasted of busting singers kneecaps when they tired to get out of contracts - we don't want slime like that wandering about in any sort of communication facility with the right to impound gear. Nice ISP you have here, shame if I have to seize all your servers and put you out of business on suspicion - know what I mean guvnor?

Just what can you do in that situation?

AC in there I replied to

[tqft]

Teach me to reply to an AC (now modded troll)

You have it backwards

[Chuck Chunder]

This is crazy. The strange thing is that Austrilia is a break off of England, so I didn't think that they would allow such a thing to happen.

Anton Piller orders exist in Australia because the Australian legal system is derived from the British one.

Re:Crazy...

[CrankyFool]

Are you sure? I was pretty sure they were their own continent. I mean, England's just an island -- I'd say it's more correct that England's broken off of Australia.

But realistically, since they're so far away from each other, I have doubts as to whether they were _ever_ connected.

War on Music

[Ohreally_factor]

Well, the summary and the article used the word "assault" enough times that I imagined the record labels' auditors storming the beaches whilst lawyers para'd* to the roof of the building, all to the tune of Flight of the Valkyries.

Hey, it could have been worse. It could have been the FBI.

*High Altitude Low Opening (HALO), of course.

Re:War on Music

[Marran Gray]

Actually, that's High Altitude No Opening (the MPAA commandos forgot the parachutes): http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010213

So...

[bonch]

So, all those people in the CherryOS "stolen source code" article going on about how evil GPL copyright infringement is and how PearPC's authors should pursue legal action against the infringers will now presumably support this, or am I incorrect that there won't be any hypocrisy in this discussion?

Re:So...

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

So, all those people in the CherryOS "stolen source code" article going on about how evil GPL copyright infringement is and how PearPC's authors should pursue legal action against the infringers will now presumably support this

Hell, I'm up for personally raiding CherryOS's offices, who's with me?

Re:So...

[rsilvergun]

The PearPC guys are giving their product away for free, and only ask that if you build off their product that you contribute back to the free project. The RIAA (and whatever the fuck the Austrialian equivalent is) are screwing artists out of a good living, overcharging for thier product by maintaining an artifical lock on distribution, and discouraging new/interesting music because having just a few big name bands is more profitable. Your comparison isn't valid.

I don't understand why the 'little people' (us) have to paint everything black and white while the bastards with all the power can come up with any old justification to do what they want. This isn't hypocrisy. If you're not going to show me any decency and respect, I'm under no obligation to do the same for you. I just wish people weren't such a bunch of dumb fucks that they can't see the distinction, and then maybe reform the system for everyone's benefit (except the record producers, my they and their ilk rot in hell).

Re:So...

[gnuman99]

The RIAA (and whatever the fuck the Austrialian equivalent is) are screwing artists out of a good living, overcharging for thier product by maintaining an artifical lock on distribution, and discouraging new/interesting music because having just a few big name bands is more profitable. Your comparison isn't valid.

One question, why do Artists sign contracts with them? If RIAA and others were useless, artists would not use them for distribution.

Re:So...

[Zareste]

You whine and bitch about people doing things without getting their life savings stolen by a corporation, and you say it on a free message board?

Hey next let's complain that people can step outside their doors without getting shot, blah blah, moan, complain, I shouldn't be killed insult instult

Re:So...

[Soko]

The PearPC guys are giving their product away for free, and only ask that if you build off their product that you contribute back to the free project. The RIAA (and whatever the fuck the Austrialian equivalent is) are screwing artists out of a good living, overcharging for thier product by maintaining an artifical lock on distribution, and discouraging new/interesting music because having just a few big name bands is more profitable. Your comparison isn't valid.

Lady Justice has a blindfold for a reason. Are the RIAA doing what you said? Yup. Does that make it right to flout the law - a law that we need in order to protect GPLed code?

I don't understand why the 'little people' (us) have to paint everything black and white while the bastards with all the power can come up with any old justification to do what they want. This isn't hypocrisy. If you're not going to show me any decency and respect, I'm under no obligation to do the same for you. I just wish people weren't such a bunch of dumb fucks that they can't see the distinction, and then maybe reform the system for everyone's benefit (except the record producers, my they and their ilk rot in hell).

Maybe not hypocracy, but it is becoming judge and jury on your own. I agree that the record execs should rot in hell, but I don't think we should aribitrarily apply laws based on whether the person/thing/entity being harmed is evil or not.

If we really want to get the attention of the RIAA, we don't give them once red cent, or even the opportunity to get our hard earned cash through litigation. When the RIAAs pockets are a lot more empty, they'll listen, and not until.

Soko

Re:So...

[shark72]

"The RIAA (and whatever the fuck the Austrialian equivalent is) are screwing artists out of a good living..."

I don't understand what you mean. If this is the case, why do people keep signing recording contracts?

"...overcharging for thier product by maintaining an artifical lock on distribution..."

There's something I've always wondered; maybe you can explain it since you know so much about the record industry. There are relatively few labels that belong to the RIAA, but there are thousands of thousands of indie labels. Why is it that indie CDs cost about the same as CDs from RIAA labels? I can understand if CDs could be sold profitably for five bucks and the big RIAA labels formed a cartel that agreed to sell them at twelve bucks, but if that's the case, why doesn't one of the indie labels start selling CDs for five bucks? All it would take is one... then the rest would follow... then the RIAA labels would have to lower their prices.

Is it that all the indie labels are in on the conspiracy as well?

"and discouraging new/interesting music because having just a few big name bands is more profitable."

I've lost you there. Aren't record companies in business to make money? It's well and good for us to tell the record companies that they should instead be concentrating more on unprofitable bands, but it is they, not we, who are responsible to their employees.

"Your comparison isn't valid."

I tend to think that I shouldn't violate somebody's rights no matter what impression I might have of their business model, and I also think that two wrongs don't make a right. Do you disagree?

Re:So...

[m50d]

Mods, please start modding this argument down as the troll that it is rather than giving free insightfulness to anyone who writes it. THE REASON WE ARE OBBJECTING IS THE CHERRYOS GUY CLAIMED HE WROTE IT. HE *CLAIMED* *AUTHORSHIP* OF IT. WE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH COPYING CHERRYOS. WE WOULD HAVE A PROBLEM IF THE FILESHARERS WERE CLAIMING THEY WERE SINGING THE SONGS THEY WERE SHARING. BUT THEY'RE NOT. THE TWO CASES ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. SO STOP CRYING HIPOCRISY. Apologies for shouting, but this needs to be pounded into some people's thick skulls because that's the only way they will take any notice. This bit is just filler because the lameness filter does not like me having yelled. So, staying vaguely on topic, www.last.fm is really good. Try it. It's a radio station that plays the kind of music you like. Takes a bit of "training" for it to become accurate, but it combines with audioscrobbler to get a profile from the music you already have. Discover the more of the kind of stuff people like you like.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

One question, why do Artists sign contracts with them? If RIAA and others were useless, artists would not use them for distribution.

Look at the average new artist. Notice how they all have something in common? That's right - they're all teenagers.

How much savvy does your average teenager have? Not a lot. They see a recording contract, they'll sign it, probably without reading it first, and certainly without understanding it. And next thing they know, they've signed their rights away for the next twenty years.

And they don't particularly mind, because 20 cents per disk sold or whatever is money, while no disks being sold is no money. But does that make it fair, when the RIAA is pocketing many times as much? We say "no".

Of course, that doesn't justify pirating the music, which means that the artist gets nothing at all.

Re:So...

[aaronl]

People sign because they want to have a chance at being famous. The record company comes and says you're good and you'll go somewhere, but you have to sign this paper first. Now those people could go and raise their own duplication costs, and their own advertising budget, and then hire people to go and do that, but most musicians don't have the time, patience, and certainly not the millions for it.

The indie labels don't sell as many CD's, so their costs are higher. They're also businesses, so they charge what they can get away with. Many people will buy the indie label just because it isn't an RIAA affiliate. But aside from that, most indie label don't charge that much for their CD's. Most store will mark up their CD's to the same prices as RIAA product albums and just make more money. Do some research of your own and you'll see that it's trivial to buy CD's for low prices on independant labels or self published artists.

Records companies also have the obligation to not violate the law, which they flaut regularly. The RIAA has been repeatedly found guilty of anti-compentitive monopoly practices, such as price fixing. They don't stop the behaviour, they just keep paying the fines. Then they take the money they illegally earned and use it to buy a few laws. If the system was working properly the RIAA cartel would've been dissolved due to repeated illegal practices.

Sometimes you have to do something that isn't nice to cause change. For reference and historical example on breaking laws/violating rights look to US Revolutionary War, US Civil War, WWI, WWII. There are lots of examples of rights being infringed, and sometimes it's necessary. Right now the US government has shown that they refuse to allow the system to fix the problem. Net result is that you cannot fix it from within the system.

As has been pointed out by quite a few others, "We The People" have repeatedly and forcefully said what is wanted. And "We The People" have been ignored by the government as they favor artificial entities and their collection of capital. So to answer you, two wrongs don't make a right, but paying off elected representatives does.

Re:So...

[Suggestive Language]

"I don't understand what you mean. If this is the case, why do people keep signing recording contracts?"

Record companies spend a great deal of money convincing good artists that signing with a record label is actually a good idea when it generally isn't. Artist's are not exactly famous for their business acumen.

More importantly, until very recently, the major labels enjoyed a stranglehold on distribution and mass-marketing. If a band or an indie wants wide distribution, they have to go through a major or spend a lot of money and time trying to secure sales through major retailers.

"There's something I've always wondered; maybe you can explain it since you know so much about the record industry. There are relatively few labels that belong to the RIAA, but there are thousands of thousands of indie labels. Why is it that indie CDs cost about the same as CDs from RIAA labels? I can understand if CDs could be sold profitably for five bucks and the big RIAA labels formed a cartel that agreed to sell them at twelve bucks, but if that's the case, why doesn't one of the indie labels start selling CDs for five bucks?"

The RIAA will tell the major resellers to either stop selling those products or lose the business.

Of course the small labels can sue and the government can bring an antitrust charge, but by the time it was adjudicated the technically illegal actions will have done the job nicely. Yey for the cartel.

You can be an independent label and sell through your own channels like live shows, word of mouth, luck, etc, but if you want your CD in Best Buy Tower, Wal*Mart, or Target, you play by their rules.

"All it would take is one... then the rest would follow... then the RIAA labels would have to lower their prices."

Captain Obvious, if it was that easy, there wouldn't be a problem now would there?

As long as the RIAA enjoys a distribution monopoly your scheme can't and won't work.

"Is it that all the indie labels are in on the conspiracy as well?"

Some are and some aren't. Many indie labels are vanity labels for megastars or indies that essentially operate as subsidiaries for the major labels. Until very recently it has been rather difficult for an indie label to get national distribution outside of a major label distribution contract.

The RIAA is terrified of the Internet because it contains the possibility of breaking their distribution model. They will lobby legislators, get laws passed, do anything to take down any net distribution model that looks like a threat.

You can thank iTunes for giving artists the ability to distribute work independently. It will eventually snowball into something more significant...as long as Apple doesn't sell out to keep the RIAA on it's good side.

"I've lost you there. Aren't record companies in business to make money?"

And it is in my interest as a consumer to widen the availability and lower the price of profit.

It is in the interest of the artist to secure the best distribution and price for their work.

Have you made a hidden assumption that the only business worthy of consideration is the record companies?

"It's well and good for us to tell the record companies that they should instead be concentrating more on unprofitable bands, but it is they, not we, who are responsible to their employees."

You need to be more clear on what exactly you mean by 'unprofitable'.

"I tend to think that I shouldn't violate somebody's rights no matter what impression I might have of their business model, and I also think that two wrongs don't make a right. Do you disagree?"

This is about the only thing you said that I can agree with. Laws have to be changed to make a real difference.

Re:So...

[shark72]

"Records companies also have the obligation to not violate the law, which they flaut regularly. The RIAA has been repeatedly found guilty of anti-compentitive monopoly practices, such as price fixing. They don't stop the behaviour, they just keep paying the fines."

Very interesting -- I didn't know that! Can you please provide a citation for that? I am aware of one price fixing settlement a few years back. Here's what happened:

1. Best Buy and Wal-Mart started selling CDs at or below cost, as a "loss leader" to get people into the stores.
2. This was very upsetting to some specialty realtors (Tower Records, TWE, and one which I can't recall). Unlike Wal-Mart and Best Buy, the specialty stores didn't have an acre of high-margin electronics or children's clothes to make up the difference.
3. Tower and TWE went to the record companies for help. The record companies set up a MAP ("minimum advertised price") co-op advertising program in which the labels would help pay for newspaper ads if if Tower, et al. didn't advertise below a certain price. (In case this sounds familiar... lots of industries have MAP programs. Ever hear words like "price too low to mention" on radio spots? That's likely a MAP in effect.)
4. Wal-Mart and Best Buy complained to the goverment.
5. The government spanked the record companies and prevented them from doing MAPs.
6. Tower Records subsequently filed for bankrupcty.

The price-fixing suit was a win for the Wal-Marts and Best Buys of the world. It was a loss for indie stores, and specialty stores like Tower Records. If you like Wal-Mart and their crappy selection of music, then great, but I personally don't mind shopping in indie stores even if I might pay a buck or two more, just so I can avoid the Wal-Mart experience. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with MAP programs -- lots of other industries still use them. This was the case of Wal-Mart throwing their power around to put smaller retailers out of business.

Anyway, back to your statement that this has happened multiple times. Can you give me another example?

"The indie labels don't sell as many CD's, so their costs are higher. They're also businesses, so they charge what they can get away with."

Hmm... being a business and charging what they can get away with... pardon me if I'm overzealously connecting dots for you, but are you saying that indie labels are just as evil?

"Many people will buy the indie label just because it isn't an RIAA affiliate. But aside from that, most indie label don't charge that much for their CD's. Most store will mark up their CD's to the same prices as RIAA product albums and just make more money."

Interesting -- can you give me an example? What price does the RIAA sell into distribution for, vs. the indies?

"Do some research of your own and you'll see that it's trivial to buy CD's for low prices on independant labels or self published artists."

Self-published is another thing, but my experience doesn't match yours on the indie vs. major prices -- in fact, it's the opposite. The crappy stuff from the Brittanies of the world is often $12 or $13 while the decent acts on smaller labels are a few bucks more.

Re:So...

[shark72]

"Captain Obvious, if it was that easy, there wouldn't be a problem now would there? As long as the RIAA enjoys a distribution monopoly your scheme can't and won't work."

That is precisely why I asked. The fact that there are thousands of indie labels all selling their goods for about the same price is contractictory of a couple of facts that every Slashdotter knows: the RIAA is a monopoly, and CDs are sold at a very high margin. In a market with thousands of suppliers, price fixing can't realistically be maintained.

Just so that we're talking about the same thing, would you agree that the auto industry has a monopoly on cars?

"The RIAA is terrified of the Internet because it contains the possibility of breaking their distribution model. They will lobby legislators, get laws passed, do anything to take down any net distribution model that looks like a threat. You can thank iTunes for giving artists the ability to distribute work independently. It will eventually snowball into something more significant...as long as Apple doesn't sell out to keep the RIAA on it's good side."

I see this claim on Slashdot a lot, but I'm just not seeing the evidence. Apple and the record labels have sold tens of millions of tracks on the iTMS and are laughing all the way to the bank. Universal has recently launched their own online-only label. Meanwhile, online ventures like Magnatune, which would fit many Slashdotter's ideal of the future of online music, are flailing. I seems to me that the record labels get this Internet thing just fine.

"You need to be more clear on what exactly you mean by 'unprofitable'."

As you know, the record industry is a hugely speculative one; just one hit a year can keep the lights on and pay for all the other failures. Record companies have an obligation to their employees to stay in business, so they take the path of least resistance and make safe choices. However, I think that's their prerogative and it's certainly not "evil" at all -- in fact, it's how most businesses operate. God bless the indie labels that take chances on the fringe acts, but running a small label with no capital is an even riskier business.

This is the dynamic of any consumer good industry (make a bland, "safe" product and you'll have wider appeal) -- so it's not a point for which the record companies should be singled out as being evil.

Re:So...

[Zareste]

Most people knew I was talking about being sued, but I guess you're special. If $9.99 is your life savings then thanks for playing the common slashdotter.

Re:So...

[Suggestive Language]

"That is precisely why I asked. The fact that there are thousands of indie labels all selling their goods for about the same price is contradictory of a couple of facts that every Slashdotter knows: the RIAA is a monopoly, and CDs are sold at a very high margin.
In a market with thousands of suppliers, price fixing can't realistically be maintained."
Absolutely wrong.

Price fixing can occur at the supplier level or the distribution level. The RIAA's power is not in dominating supply, but dominating distribution through a handful of large retailers who sell the vast majority of music.

"Just so that we're talking about the same thing, would you agree that the auto industry has a monopoly on cars?"
Positively wrong on both of your hidden premises.

Firstly, the auto industry does not enjoy a monopoly on product distribution. Car companies don't sell %95 of their product through a relative handful of one stop retailers. As a matter of fact, such arrangements are illegal in many states.

Secondly, anyone with sufficient capital can enter the auto industry and be competitive, *because there is no limit on distribution*. A new car company can easily find dealers.

The music industry is dominated by a handful of retailers, the RIAA has effective control over the product supplied to those retailers, they can pressure the (say it with me) handful of major resellers into not selling other products.

This kind of behavior is not hypothetical The RIAA has been tried and convicted of such price fixing schemes.

If you can't grok that, put down your classical liberal screed and learn some modern macroeconomics. The 'Slashdotters' you like to strawman so eagerly make more sense in than you're making.

"I see this claim on Slashdot a lot, but I'm just not seeing the evidence. Apple and the record labels have sold tens of millions of tracks on the iTMS and are laughing all the way to the bank."

I'll give you this. At this point there is no strong evidence either way as to Apple's intentions. Apple isn't yet in the position to execute such a maneuver and it would be a decade or so before they can do so. I'm willing to wait and see. Are you?

"it is impossible to run Universal has recently launched their own online-only label."
How is this germane to the overall discussion? Some details would be helpful. Sony and BMG have tried and failed at online distribution, how do they fit into this discussion. Educate me.

"Meanwhile, online ventures like Magnatune, which would fit many Slashdotter's ideal of the future of online music, are flailing. I seems to me that the record labels get this Internet thing just fine."

Magnatune is is failing? How so? Is it a result of being an early experiment, a bad business plan or simply being an innovator in an *emerging* market?

You're going to have to come up with some more information regarding Magnatune's 'failure' before I buy your argument.

Okay, okay, I admit it. I don't know what you're auguring here. My argument is that the major labels get the Internet too well. The majors want exclusive distribution *and* continued dominance of the distribution channel.

"As you know, the record industry is a hugely speculative one; just one hit a year can keep the lights on and pay for all the other failures. Record companies have an obligation to their employees to stay in business,"

I thought they *only* have an obligation to make money, right?

" so they take the path of least resistance and make safe choices. However, I think that's their prerogative and it's certainly not "evil" at all -- in fact, it's how most businesses operate." God bless the indie labels that take chances on the fringe acts, but running a small label with no capital is an even riskier business."

The irony is that a moderately successful indie artist is going to make much more money selling and promoting their own products *in this current market* than listening to the drivel of an A&R dope a

Re:So...

[shark72]

Thanks for the reply! Just a few comments:

"The music industry is dominated by a handful of retailers, the RIAA has effective control over the product supplied to those retailers, they can pressure the (say it with me) handful of major resellers into not selling other products. This kind of behavior is not hypothetical The RIAA has been tried and convicted of such price fixing schemes."

It's ironic that the record companies were busted for price fixing when they tried to get away from the industry being dominated by just a few large retailers. Many Slashdotters talk about the famous record company price fixing case a few years ago, but most don't know the details:

• Best Buy and Wal-Mart (who, as you pointed out, utterly dominate the retail music business nowadays) started selling CDs at or below cost, as a "loss leader" to get people into the stores.
• This was very upsetting to some specialty realtors (Tower Records, TWE, and one which I can't recall). Unlike Wal-Mart and Best Buy, the specialty stores didn't have an acre of high-margin electronics or children's clothes to make up the difference.
• Tower and TWE complained that they were being put out of business, and went to the record companies for help. The record companies set up a MAP ("minimum advertised price") co-op advertising program in which the labels would help pay for newspaper ads if if Tower, et al. didn't advertise below a certain price. (In case this sounds familiar... lots of industries have MAP programs. Ever hear words like "price too low to mention" on radio spots? That's likely a MAP in effect.)
• Wal-Mart and Best Buy complained to the goverment.
• The government spanked the record companies and prevented them from doing MAPs.
• Tower Records subsequently filed for bankrupcty.

The price fixing judgement is a good thing if one subscribes to the "What's good for Wal-Mart is good for America" theory (lots of people do; I don't and I'm guessing you don't, either). It was bad news for the indie and specialty retailers, and bad news for consumers who appreciate having a choice beyond Best Buy and Wal-Mart. Ironically enough it didn't affect the record companies much, as they sold their CDs into disti for the same price regardless of who was buying it.

In short: the price fixing was basically Wal-Mart bitch slapping the record industry and making them play by Wal-Mart's rules. You stated that the price fixing judgement was because the record labels were trying to control the major retailers, when the reality is that it was exactly the opposite.

"You're going to have to come up with some more information regarding Magnatune's 'failure' before I buy your argument."

I would not say that Magnatune is failing -- just flailing. They haven't really grown much in the past few years compared to the competition, and their customer service is pretty horrible because they're just not making enough to hire enough people. For the time being, customers as a whole still want the commercial stuff. iTunes' major competition still seems to be etailers like Amazon and, of course, P2P. I would not yet classify "virtual labels" as serious competition.

You asked for more info about Universal's online venture. Here's what I found on Google:

http://digital-lifestyles.info/display_page.asp?se ction=cm&id=1799

Interesting stuff. The Internet is here whether anybody likes it or not; Universal seems to be relatively cluefull about leveraging it.

confused reporting

[mako1138]

...provided the user has BitTorrent software or software or a protocol equivalent to BitTorrent.

Ah, ZDNet.

Better Article

[_Hellfire_]

I submitted this yesterday with the originally reported article

What scares me the most is that police weren't involved at all. These are corporations barging in and taking stuff with the government's blessing!

Re:Better Article

[netwerk]

Mr Speck said material from artists such as Guns 'n' Roses, Robbie Williams, Kylie Minogue, Britney Spears, Pearl Jam and Linkin Pink had been involved.

Tee hee

Re:Better Article

[_Hellfire_]

I said this to my coworker yesterday:

The only thing worse than going to jail for ilegally copying music is going to jail for ilegally copying Britney Spears!

You'd be sitting there going "WHAT was I THINKING??"

Re:Better Article

[netwerk]

I was actually giggling at Linkin Pink, but you do make an excellent point ;)

Re:Better Article

[fallen1]

Yeah, you know - and I don't want to spread suggestions - I know you probably would get into trouble for shooting a _law enforcement_ person who barged in your nice Australian home because they have a LEGAL authority to do so and would announce themselves (more than likely). But, what happens to the corporate goon squad who barges in my house unannounced and I shoot a couple of them because I feared for my life? Regardless of the fact they were "sanctioned" by the government of Australia to conduct the raid they were not government officials and entered my private residence unannounced. I mean, can't you see the conversation - "Fuck, officer, these goons bashed in my door and had no ID and were not wearing badges and the first thought that came to mind was 'I'm about to die in a home invasion' and so, being an upstanding citizen defended myself."

Of course, would you wonder (A) how many times that would happen before the nice government of Australia made it illegal to shoot people entering your house unannounced regardless of their intent? or (B) how many times that would happen before the Aussie recording goon squads started carrying guns on raids (which would just be LOVELY press if they did not kill the person they were raiding)? or (C) how many times this would happen before the raids were just given up on completely by the "government sanctioned" recording goon squads?

Please note: I do not condone piracy but the people sitting at home aren't the major issues with "loss of revenue", it is the balck market dealers in China, Hong Kong, Taiwan and other countries that are making hundred of thousands of CDs, DVDs, and other material available on the black market for $2 or whatever and making millions. The person sitting at home downloading 10 songs, or 1000 songs, is breaking copyright law to be sure but they are not making millions off the material to boot. I say fight the real piracy (the multi-national, sells 500,000 CDs, makes millions) and THEN deal with the other issue - and change your business model to fit with the times.

Re:Crazy...

[monstro23]

Australia's an island too, dude. Fucken big one though. Sure they were connected, just some of the connection was underwater...

It's like

[agendi]

a music inquisition - nobody expected it :)

Perfect quote

[YrWrstNtmr]

...at the bottom of the page.

Bing's Rule: Don't try to stem the tide -- move the beach.

Music/movie industry - start moving.

its nice to see

[drfrog]

full on corporate para militaries having the RIGHT to do this

Re:its nice to see

[Zareste]

Meh, corporations pay for politicians. They pay for the school system to tell kids they'll go to Hell for copying 1's and 0's and they essentially own the police. The only way there'd be a restriction on this stuff is if the corporations didn't approve of their own actions.

Re:its nice to see

[slavemowgli]

It's like you're caught in a real-life ShadowRun campaign, isn't it? Creepy.

Phew!

[LokieLizzy]

During the investigation, Speck said they uncovered a list of video files on the Web site from different artists such as Eminem, Ja Rule, Nelly, Avril Lavigne and Jennifer Lopez, among others.

The sooner we get that rubbish (and the fools whom insist on sharing it) off the p2p networks, the better. If you're fool enough to share the nonsense you hear on the radio, well then...you deserve a visit from the ARIA.

Very intimidating to freedom

[Quiberon]

Very intimidating to those of us who use BitTorrent for legal purposes.

Free Linux with every Windows http://home.btconnect.com/chrisandcarolyn/knosci.p ng !

Torrents here http://home.btconnect.com/chrisandcarolyn/torrents /. They all 'autorun'. Share and Enjoy !

Australia

[Marran Gray]

My recollection is that Australia was used as a place for England to deport its most dangerous criminals, a long while back; Au was essentially colonized by expatriate English bandits.

Re:Australia

[mr i want to go home]

Yes - the really dangerous criminals were shipped to Australia - the ones who performed heinous crimes like stealing a loaf of bread to feed their starving family, or loitering in the nice parts of town.

The guys who only did petty crimes like murder were kept in nice prisons like the Clink in South London.

Although I'm of course being sarcastic, you might have some idea now of why "a fair go" is such a treasured concept in Australia.

Re:Australia

[mr i want to go home]

We're going to send you to our new penal colony - Channel 7 Melbourne - for being a smart arse!

Re:Australia

[pommiekiwifruit]

England sent fewer convicts to Australia than to the colonies that formed the USA.

Re:Australia

[IWannaBeAnAC]

This isn't funny at all, its completely true.

Re:Crazy...

[maglor_83]

Not really sure how they are now

Put simply, Queen of England is our head of state, though in reality she has virtually no involvement, though she could if she wanted to. The governor general is a representative of the Queen, appointed by the PM, who also has a bit of power. Then you've got the PM, part of the government, where everything has to be voted on and what not.

However, there has been a lot of talk about becoming a republic. It won't happen soon, but I imagine it'll happen well within my lifetime.

Anton Piller order is not a search warrant.

[ZombieEngineer]

If you are served with an Anton Piller order, you are being asked nicely to allow a solicitor for the plantiff to enter and remove documents relating to the order. If you refuse the order you will be held in contempt of court.

The difference is that the bearer of the order needs to ask for permission to access, if there is no-one present then they can't enter.

ZombieEngineer (IANAL)

Re:Anton Piller order is not a search warrant.

[Anonymous Coward]

And what are the likely consequences if you refuse and are held in contempt of court?

Make no mistake - it is just as bad as a warrant, because the threat of contempt amounts to duress.

Re:Anton Piller order is not a search warrant.

[dbIII]

And what are the likely consequences if you refuse and are held in contempt of court?

It is taken very seriously - often a short jail term.

Re:Crazy...

[FidelCatsro]

Um england is not an island mate , its a country
England is on an island with 2 other countrys aka Scotland and Wales ;) sorry back on point

and to the grandparent , no australia is a break off of the UK not of England ,
England is also part of the UK as was the USA and Canada at on point .

Im from Scotland , which is also part of the UK (unless more of vote for the SNP )
Please stop refering to the whole UK as England , ;) although we dont mind when your refering to civil rights abuses etc (joke)

A large portion of australia was people called criminals , who were not Read up on it , Alot of Scotsmen were taken away from there homes by frankly abusive laws
set up to protect the rich bussiness and landowners
Where people would perhaps steal a farm animal to feed the family or some such thing , perhaps they would take a bit of grain or show someone else how to steal an animal

petty laws with over the top punishements ,,,, A bit like today with the RIAA and now the abuse of bittorent servers.
I will not aruge the morality here as its a long tiersome debate
but i will say , since when is it illegal to show someone how to commit a crime
I have a several books on lock picking , a book on the mindset of serial killers , a book about pickpockets and the sub culture , all of these show me how to commit crimes just as torrent files show me(witha client) how to download the info . go after the sharer if you really must or the tracker perhaps .

However i do know one thing , Companys should never be allowed to conduct raids.
We have an elected rule for a few reasons , and we dont need private companys acting like facists , no way should any persons not under the direct control of the gouvernemt be able to conduct such actions

US 4th Amendment and Evidence validity.

[AKosygin]

Usually when you enact the 4th Amendment with a warrant, you have to be extra careful in defining what you are looking for, and how you "obtain" the evidence. If the evidence becomes "tainted" then it can be thrown out.

Are those non-government corporate agents good enough to not screw the evidence up? And what seperates them from the Police besides being corporate hired and not part of the government?

Here we go again...

[FoboldFKY]

...so they've started doing physical raids of ISPs to get BitTorrent users. Give the OSS community a few months, and there'll be a fully encrypted version of BitTorrent that's all but impossible to trace.

They really don't get it, do they? Every time they try to crack down on P2P, it evolves into something harder to stop.

Re:Here we go again...

[Anonymous Coward]

You know the port and you know the IP. Encryption can't make your IP go away. Unless they implement some kind of arbitrary port space with onion routing to BT it won't help one thing to be "impossible to trace".

Besides, you have nothing to be afraid of if you use the torrents for legal stuff! Why do you even care of some shitty corporate products you could not afford anyway and maybe end up using for 1 hour then forgetting it? The latest shitty movie from Hollywood? Leave them be.

If it's not worth paying for in the cinema, it's not worth seeing. Why waste your time for such crap?

The same applies for music as well.

Re:Here we go again...

[Zareste]

Apparently, the problem is the guy who made the Bittorrent scheme. In a great bit of irony, he's one of those people who thinks it's good that corporations use the internet to extort money from anyone they can get their hands on. He made no attempt at network privacy, and really should follow through on his own twisted morality by throwing himself in prison.

But you probably know that stuff already.
Seems like an encrypted torrent method would mean another program and format. It'd have to get its foot in the door, but hey I'm sure it would catch on.

Re:Here we go again...

[Farmer Tim]

"They really don't get it, do they? Every time they try to crack down on P2P, it evolves into something harder to stop."

And yet the search orders keep coming, which suggests one of two things:

1- Hackers aren't as good as they think at hiding the traces of file "sharing", and as long as packets need to go to the correct IP there will always be a way of tracing them.

2- The relevant bodies have access to the same technology as the hackers, plus enough money make tracing file "sharing" full time work rather than a hobby, so from now on every P2P protocol will probably only last as long as it takes to collect enough evidence for action to be taken in meatspace.

So the RIAA/BPI/ARIA launch a new round of lawsuits every six months; big deal, that's their job, it isn't an inconvenience for them.

Re:Here we go again...

[Adrilla]

Why do you even care of some shitty corporate products you could not afford anyway and maybe end up using for 1 hour then forgetting it? The latest shitty movie from Hollywood? Leave them be. If it's not worth paying for in the cinema, it's not worth seeing. Why waste your time for such crap?

It's very easy dismiss these movies and music and easy for you to be "above" everyone else's taste and even easier to just say that you are. But, some people do like these movies, they love these cd's and they want to escape everyday life (and not everyone likes to read). You and I may think Britney Spears is awful, but there are people who love her and can't live without her next album, single, music video, movie and playstation game. And lets not forget that through overexposure, these corporation constantly tell you that you like it, and even if you don't too bad cause we're gonna play it hourly so suck it up. But the people that like these products may also disagree with the RIAA/MPAA business model and this is the easiest way to rebel (and some people just want free movies and cd's). So it's not that easy to just "Leave them be."

Re:RAID my ass!

[Proc6]

Spoken like a true upper class suburban white angst ridden goth male teenager who would likely be covered in tears and feces at the first sight of anyone of authority knocking on their (ahem, their parents) door.

Is this guy clueless or what?

[Kaorimoch]

MIPI General Manager Michael Speck said, "We have identified Swiftel as an ISP which has adopted BitTorrent technology to link infringers to music clips and sound recordings. We believe hundreds of thousands of downloads have been conducted in the last year in breach of copyright laws."

Oh no, an ISP that allows users to run Bittorrent on its service!?! Kill it quickly Michael!</sarcasm>

Re:Is this guy clueless or what?

[shark72]

"Oh no, an ISP that allows users to run Bittorrent on its service!?! Kill it quickly Michael!"

They went a bit farther than that; they were running a torrent site exclusively for their subscribers. This wasn't the case of some subscriber running a pirate torrent site unbeknownst to the ISP.

Re:Is this guy clueless or what?

[clef]

Uhh no. It's a customer of the ISP running it for the benefit of their fellow customers.

Re:Is this guy clueless or what?

[Kaorimoch]

Correct. Might be worth your while to read the original article first. The customers were running it, not the ISP. ISPs in Australia don't run illegal content sites.

The MIPI decided that because a DirectConnect server, known as Archie's server, could only be accessed if you were a customer of the ISP, that the ISP was liable.

What they didn't know (or chose to ignore) was that the ISP had download limits but the limits didn't apply if you were transferring data between members of the same ISP. They were just trying to leech more data between themselves.

So what you end up with is the MIPI hurling out press releases about their vapid accusations and trumpeting their misguided cause, attempting to spread fear and chaos amongst ISPs and their users by suggesting that the ISP was running some sort of piracy ring. They just wanted their day in the news. But anyone with knowledge of what was going on can see how clueless the MIPI really are. I wonder if People Telecom are going to sue for defamation?

Great quote

[Anonymous Coward]

http://whirlpool.net.au/article.cfm/1457?show=repl ies:

Ryan O'Hare, People Telecom CEO claimed to be unaware of the sites or the technology behind them. O'Hare said, "I've never even heard of this technology."

"I've never even heard of this technology" is the new "I did not have sex with that woman."

Re:Great quote

[Hecatonchires]

He's just read about it on the internet. Hearing != seeing

well...

[haxmtrx]

I guess they are thinking, "one step at a time".

Another similar hit in Sweden

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.idg.se/ArticlePages/200503/10/200503101 25531_CS/20050310125531_CS.dbp.asp

The article is in swedish, but it's very similar to the attack in Australia (being a civil action). They hit, shut down the business and are looking for 20 MP3:s and 8 movies on a hosted server. The accusations are directed at the ISP, not the users sharing the files

Bahnhof is the oldest public ISP in Sweden and a small enough actor to easily be pushed around (two dozen employees). They stayed clear of the bigger companies for obvious legal reasons.

and this is who it went?

[DenDave]

*radio chirps*

we have 404 in progress

*chirp*

they've taken down the links

*chrip*

I'm goin' in

*chirp*

*crashing sounds*

*screams*

put down the network cable!

put your hands above your head!

Hey, you, in the greatfull dead tshirt and the
"fuck-you" hat! Ya you, drop the Peanut butter
and jelly sandwich right now!!

The tough jobs of tough men in law enforcement and the War on Torrent....

*sob*

Re:and this is who it went?

[Zorilla]

Definitely a George Carlin fan.

Re:and this is who it went?

[DenDave]

and who are you? the lady on the plane? ;)

Re:and this is who it went?

[Anonymous Cowpat]

*maniacle laugh*

Charge up the tesla coil!

*tzzzzzzzt*

argh!

*zap*

Yaargh *zap* the geeks are *zap* going to *zap* get us! *zap*

"Eat 30 year old harddisk platter, capitalist scum!"

*several highly sharpened shiny metal disks fly through the air*

"Homopolar generator spun up! aim the railgun"
*huge crashing sound as several MIPI thugs are vaporised*

"Release the monitors!"
*several dozen broken 15" monitors begin to fall from the ceiling on the raiders.*

"For Khaz Modan!"
*thwack* *thwack* *thwunk* *storm bolt* *thunder clap* *thwack*

"Ok, lads, out with your LARTs let's mop them up!"

If only...

Re:and this is who it went?

[DenDave]

ROFL! ___ it's because you are paranoid that they aren't out to get you! ___

Re:and this is who it went?

[grrrl]

except ive never met anyone who eats peanut butter and JAM sandwiches here in perth

maybe vegemite? :)

Re:and this is who it went?

[DenDave]

maybe vegemite? :)

*sean connery*
eeeuuuuuu gruesome...
*peter sellers*
grew some what?
*vincent price*
Veggy Mites Muahahahaa!!!
*Steve Irwin -aka- The crocodile man*
Awe mate, these guys are reaaaaaal dangerous, I'm just gonna stick my thumb up this Veggy Mite's arse and that's really gonna piss 'im off!
*laughtrack*

Worldwide RIAA boycott

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anybody thougth of organizing a Worldwide RIAA boycott day - when nobody buys any music?

Or even better a week long boycott.

During The Price of Silence event it would be clear how much revenue is generated, so that we could see how well or badly the major labels really do.

I can't forget when the leader of a not-even-that-famous Canadian band "...taking care of business..." said on national radio, that after their first big hit the President of their label invited them for a dinner and promised them that if they produce just one more hit, he can promise them that they never have to work again in their life. As the musician said: the President proved to be right.

This story can really set the context to understand all the industry efforts: desparately trying to return to the good old days...

Re:Worldwide RIAA boycott

[Freaky Spook]

A boycott sounds good, But there are just too many Pepsi drinking, Brintney Spears loving 13 year old girls buying CD's to attempt such a thing.

Re:Worldwide RIAA boycott

[fuzzybunny]

Erm, I've been doing this for nearly two years now. I own about 600 CDs, and got sick of it all after a combination of **AA/government excesses, broken copyright (and IP in general) laws, and specifically, my inability to rip my girlfriend's Herbert Groenemeyer Live CD to my mp3 player.

Said last incident was what really set me off--I wrote the guy in charge of their stupid bullshit copy protection group a nastygram, basically informing him that I would never buy from EMI Germany again, and would tell all my friends not to as well. He wrote back a very civil, well-reasoned (but wrong, using all the known arguments for copy protection) mail. I have not bought music for a long time now.

Copy protection, raids for copyright infringement, whatever. I am exercising my right as a customer (NOT "CONSUMER", NOTE THE DAMN DIFFERENCE!) to not buy their shit, not watch their TV, not see their movies, and generally try to do my little bit to remove as much commerce as possible from their filthy little fingers.

In summary, why a boycott? Just tell all your friends and family...

Re:Worldwide RIAA boycott

[Farmer Tim]

Has anybody thougth of organizing a Worldwide RIAA boycott day..."

Good idea! The rest of the world ignoring the Recording Industry Association of America would have such a huge impact....

Re:Worldwide RIAA boycott

[MagicDude]

Won't work, for the simple reason that a one day boycott isn't effective for protesting the makers of material products. It's the same problem that arises when someone suggests a one day boycott of gasoline purchases to protest gas taxes or oil compainies or whatever. Even if people were on board and were willing to do it, all they would do is either gas up the day before or the day after the "boycott". You aren't going to get any results since you're not really costing them anything since you just end up buying stuff anyway, just a day later. A boycot of a product would need to be weeks or months in duration to be effective. A one day boycot is only effective for protesting service based corporations. For example, since their revenue is based upon working every day, and they can't make up revenue by working more another day the way a product based company can make up sales by selling more product at a later day. So if you wanted to protest a roofing company for example, having a boycott of a day would affect them greatly, since they can't work twice as hard on another day to make it up (you can only schingle roofs so fast). Thus they would have a bigger motivation to change their policies rather than the RIAA who instead of making 1 million dollars a day, would instead make 0 one day, and then 2 million the next.

Re:Worldwide RIAA boycott

[camkind]

I can't forget when the leader of a not-even-that-famous Canadian band "...taking care of business..."

I beleive that would be Randy Bachman of BTO (and the Guess Who)

Re:Worldwide RIAA boycott

[Suggestive Language]

So what kind of economic pressure will work?

Pirating is obviously not working.

The time for whining is over, it's time for solutions.

I just have to say...

[L0k11]

The ARIA (Australian Record Industry Association) can "Anton Piller" my dick!

ACCC website: http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/ 288585/fromItemId/340639

Has some nice info on MIPI (including phone number) in case anyone wants to give them a call :)

The torrent cops will become corrupt...

[sgant]

Oh sure, at first they'll be on the up and up. But after a while, with so many songs just laying around, soon a young cop...not getting paid enough, will start skimming a few songs off the raid for himself. He'll think "hey, there's so many songs here, they won't know I took a few!"

Then after a while, he's a major song peddler himself...and the bittorrent pirates will know they can pay him off with a few dozen songs here and there. Corruption will seep into the ranks of the bittorrent police and soon after that, it makes way for the song cartels.

use of BitTorrent technology != copyright infring

[lkratz]

LegalTorrents, Torrentocracy, Prodigem, bt.etree ...

See previous story

Try indy music, using your favorite BitTorrent client to download legal content. It will be harder for the trafic police to stop BitTorrent as a general infriging technology.

Re:Country name.

[ozmanjusri]

This Australia we're talking about here. Not the US. They run things their way. We run things our way.

Not any more. With Howard's Liberal government (famously referred to as a conga-line of arselickers) in power, we run things your way as well.

Just look at our government's total lack of response when you lock up our citizens without charge.

I'm tired of this...

[benow]

When are the politicians going to be locked up? Damn 'em. Illuminate the stupidity of their stance in face of such a wonderful opportunity. Encourage thought outside of the immediate. Make them realize that tearing down their futures only insults their past. The incarceration and the judicial system in such manipulatable times does little more than adding spit to a house of cards. Farm vitality... state mandated paths lead to mono-cultures, easily marketed, easily swayed, easily moulded, easily decaying mono-cultures. An enlightened system benefits all, not just jailors, judges, politicians and those that pull their strings. Dispense with politico's that spew this shit, and work together growing the technology so that it may benefit the most. When the people are ready to lead, the leaders will follow.

The same thing happened in Sweden yesterday!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Swedish ISP "Banhof" was raided yesterday as well. The Stockholm "tingsrätt" (regional court) authorized a civil search of the premise, and using this warrant the organisation known as "Antipiratbyrån" ("anti-piracy bureau", like RIAA). Apparently Banhof was a colocation company as well, and one of their customers was serwing 7 terabytes of music and movies from a server in their facilities. As the offending server was located on the premises of Banhof, the anti piracy bureau used the civil search warrant and the local enforcement office to impound all computers at the ISPs main office. The internet connection is still working for the customers of Banhof, but the employees are prevented from working and their computers have been impounded. According to their warrant for a civil search of premisses, they were supposed to audit Banhof, and as the server serving the copyright infringing material, according to a press statement by Banhof, belonged to a customer renting a space in the colocation facility, it would seem that they have trespassed on the property of that customer as a civil warrant would not give them the right to search any computers but those owned by Banhof itself.

Re:MUTE-Perspective seems to be broken?

[m50d]

The large portions who are using filesharing networks to infringe copyright. There are a lot of people doing it, really a lot. And who do the laws serve? They're meant to serve the people, not follow some idea of what's "moral". Except in a few cases (basically anywhere where minorities and (possibly or) basic rights are involved) if the majority of the populace does not support a law, the law should not exist.

Re:use of BitTorrent technology != copyright infri

[rapoZa]

Just hang on there, mate - I hope you've got a license for that NOT you've just used.

It's an interesting precedent

[Jamesday]

So, we have this precedent. Next step, consumer and artist groups using the same approach on music labels, publishers and copyright associations to invstigate possible price-fixing deals, some of which have already been found through other means. The law is a tool. It can serve more than one party. Perhaps time for some others to use it?

I have plenty of other things to be doing but I expect there are others around who might want to organise and get to work on this. No time like the present.

keyword: Monopoly

[remmelt]

I'm not saying all filesharers aren't hypocrits (altough I could come op with a lot of examples of hypocricy that are 'worse', in my opinion), so I don't disagree with your post as such.

One point I would like to make is this. The music industry is a monopoly. The top 5 labels own 80% of the music that you hear. Why? Because they control the distribution as well. There are a bazillion small labels. Sign with them and never get heard, doesn't matter how good you are. Sign with a major and get heard by millions, no matter how much you suck (insert obvious examples here). Remember that most new and upcoming bands are a couple of young unexperienced guys with guitars who would do anything for a bit of recognition. They only go Wilco after years, if ever.

There are also labels that sell cd's for less. http://www.cdbaby.com/ The general public doesn't know about their existence because they don't get distributed like the majors do.

It's a classic example of a monopoly.

Required reading: http://www.negativland.com/albini.html The Problem With Music by Steve Albini
(Steve Albini is an independent and corporate rock record producer most widely known for having produced Nirvana's "In Utero")

Aren't record companies in business to make money? It's well and good for us to tell the record companies that they should instead be concentrating more on unprofitable bands, but it is they, not we, who are responsible to their employees.
As much as this is true, it's a sad fact for music. You rightfully conclude that the music industry (yes, industry) is all about money and not about music. With this statement, you validate their monopoly and say that it is their right to control what we hear, what we see, what we do. Although it is wrong to break the law and the law is being broken, I cannot agree with these practices.

Fear RFID.

[oliverthered]

Soon they will be able to use stenography techniques to watermark every CD and DVD you purchase, as soon as a new torrent appears they will extract the watermark, and cross reference it with the ID on the RFID tag.
This will give them the transaction details of the purchased product, and if you've used a credit card they can then find out your address and pop round with a search warrant just as your getting ready for bed.

Re:Fear RFID.

[corsican]

And how is the watermark going to transfer to a ripped mp3? or ogg? or anything else? How about if I use a soundcard rip rather than aspi?

Re:Fear RFID.

[oliverthered]

Well, you can do all of this today using current technology.
google for digital watermarks.

digital watermarks are placed into digital recordings using stenography techniques.

This could be anything, like an extra cloud, or an extra note in a song, but more frequently 'noise' undetectable to the human ear is added to the recording.

This 'noise' has encoded in it a serial number ideitifing the exact recording.

The encoding is performed in such a way that when you encode the data using a lossy compression technique the serial number can still be retrieved.

Basicly, they hide a serial number unique to you in the CD you have purchased as 'noise' on the music tracks, when you make an MP3 or Mpeg the 'noise' is transfered to your recording so that anyone with the correct decoding software can work out the serial number of the origional recording.

If you couple this with RFID, they can track that recording down to the person who purchased the origional copy, if you used a credit card they have your address...

Re:Fear RFID.

[oliverthered]

Well, it depends.

There's the dodgy handy cam pre-releases, you could track them down to the theatre, and harras the owners if it looked pertucuarlally empty.

There's the Oscar-previews, guess who's not getting a preview next year?

And theres all the MP3's and Divx's that I doubt originate from some 'pirate underground network', since I known several people who activly rip them.
Even if it can be tracked down to rentals, all you have to do is look up the people who rented xyz movie and get a search warrent.

The only way not to be traced would be to buy the item of ebay and have it sent to an anonymous address or some smack head that's just nicked them. or pay cash and hope you don't get caught on camera.

Re:Fear RFID.

[arose]

I lost my CD.

Re:Fear RFID.

[oliverthered]

That's ok, well just take your PC and examine the HDD contents.

Freenet

[countach]

It's a wonder someone hasn't combined freenet with bittorrent. Freenet for the indexes that can't be traced, bittorrent for the throughput.

Re:Crazy...

[MichaelSmith]

However, there has been a lot of talk about becoming a republic. It won't happen soon, but I imagine it'll happen well within my lifetime.

My guess is it will be about one year after Chucky becomes King of Australia. The only remaining candidate for Queen would, of course, be David Flint.

One possibility I don't hear enough about is that Australia could write its own Act of Succession. As I understand it this act contains the algorithm which is used to determine who gets to be King/Queen next.

With a bit of imagination we could ensure that the next head of state is an Australian, and remain a monarchy at the same time.

This is a very important right

[Cesare Ferrari]

An Anton Piller order is very serious, and is only handed out in extreme situations. It is used when you want to protect your IP (Intellectual Property), and when you can demonstrate that directly approaching the offending company/individual will most likely cause them to destroy the evidence.

For example, say you are a brand owner, and you find there is a company setup in a factory somewhere making counterfeit goods, if you approached then, they would disappear overnight, only to continue from a different location, with all evidence gone. An Anton Piller order allows you to 'bust' the operation, and seize basically whatever you want in order to stop the damage to your brand (typically the manufacture of counterfeit goods).

Cesare

Re:Country name.

[imroy]

Just a correction, you've gotten your Latham quotes confused. I believe he called the coalition "a conga-line of suck-holes" and PM Howard specifically an "American arse-licker".

Re:Crazy...

[throbber]

True, true... But what I SHOULD have said was that they were once an english colony or prison thingie. Not really sure how they are now ...

Australia has never in its history been an English Colony. Australia didn't exist before 1st January 1901, at which point a new country was born, and it was - and still is for the moment - a 'Constitutional Monachy'.

Before 1st Jan, 1901, there were a bunch of Colonies that maintained their own army, navy, customns service, etc. Essentially, they were countries by themselves.

True, those colonies where where penal colonies, with the exception of South Australia, which was freely settled

If you feel interested, you can look up some of the letters by Mark Twain and find out what his views of ....err.... Australia was before Federation.

Deniable Encryption

[nurb432]

This is why we have freenet people..

Re:Country name.

[iminplaya]

So who are you blaming? Howard? or the people that voted for him? Watch your leaders closely, yes? Watch their followers even more closely. If the people are so easily lead around by the nose, then you can hardly blame the folks they voted for now, can you?

Re:US Government & US People

[Obsidian Dagger]

Someone's (I can remember who's) signature seems very appropriate in response to the parent: "Those who cast votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." Josef Stalin This is where as a relative youngster (29) I get it yell "We din't start the fire; its been burning since the world's been truning." The fire I refer to here is corruption and has existed for at least several generations and I'm afraid the only way to remove (however briefly) is a little revolution. Hell, Thomas Jefferson said, "We need a little revolution every seven years." The closest thing to a revolution of the people in recent history was the 60s but the corporate revolution of the 80s is probably the most recent revolution in America.

Movie studios own the news media

[tepples]

Americans get to vote on the federal government at least once every two years.

Americans often learn about candidates to federal government from advertising on cable news networks or from advertising on local broadcast TV stations. Motion picture studios run the major cable news networks and the major broadcast TV networks.

Don't blame me; I voted Libertarian.

Why copying music != copying code

[tepples]

You don't like the idea of Microsoft stealing code that was written for Linux, or is owned and created by other people, do you? Music is just the same.

Copying music is most certainly not the same as copying code. It's possible to take steps to avoid copying code: don't look at anybody else's code. On the other hand, it is impossible to avoid listening to others' music because grocery stores play music in the background. A songwriter has been successfully sued for accidentally copying a melody that he had heard years ago, and many of us could see how this could lead to a chilling effect on songwriting outside the cartel.

As for recorded music, you may be more right.

Re:Why copying music != copying code

[djfray]

ah yes, recorded music is what I meant

How would one avoid copying?

[tepples]

The large portions who are using filesharing networks to infringe copyright.

Except sometimes you have little choice in the matter. If you perform the following steps:

1. walk into a grocery store where a copyrighted song is playing over the speaker system,
2. ten years later, write a song that coincidentally sounds similar, and
3. publish that song or a recording thereof on a file-sharing network,

then you are "using filesharing networks to infringe copyright." See Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music . So how would you go about avoiding copying?

Re:How would one avoid copying?

[m50d]

That just means there's an even larger proportion of society being criminalized by these laws.

Payola

[tepples]

why do Artists sign contracts with [the allegedly exploitative major record labels]?

Because only the major labels can afford to pay the payola fees to "independent" promoters affiliated wtih Clear Channel Communications and foreign counterparts, and only the major labels can afford to rent shelf space at Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and other retail stores that sell CDs of recorded music. Not all genres of music are amenable to promotion and distribution over the Internet.

Foreign counterparts boycott

[tepples]

The rest of the world ignoring the Recording Industry Association of America would have such a huge impact

Take Australia for example. The major RIAA labels (Sony, Warner, Universal, EMI) are also in the ARIA.

Re:use of BitTorrent technology != copyright infri

[tepples]

Try indy music, using your favorite BitTorrent client to download legal content.

Say you have an independent band whose members write the band's songs. How can they prove in a court of law that the songs they wrote are in fact original musical works?

Life Imitates Art

[serutan]

That headline "Music Piracy Unit Raids ISP in BitTorrent Assault" reminds me of the "Crimson Permanent Assurance Building" sketch in Monty Python's The Meaning of Life, where the pirates and the insurance executives fought it out in the office building. Classic.

The Real Shame

[geomon]

Here we are, a semi-professional group of journalists (despite what the courts have to say), posting news about technology in just about every conceivable fashion. Every topic we discuss on this forum forms the basis for the entire fabric of modern communications. That communication network drives not only general commerce, but also medicine, the legal system, politics, government, science, and education.

So with that premise (I belive) established, why is it that we let rags like ZDnet completely blow a story out of proportion, while simultaneously abusing the system they report on by misleading the general population that we are only interested in ripping off the entertainment industry? I don't get it.

What would be an amazing show of solidarity would be for everyone in the IT industry to just not show up for work on ONE day in ONE year. Completely shit on the entire system by just refusing to play by their stupid games.

Want to edit your movie MPAA? Not today! We are going to hold up your entire production for a day. What would that cost them on every single film they are working on? Cha-ching!

And the new cancerous Spears-spew you were hoping to mix this morning? Sorry, but the support staff called in with a collective chicken-pox outbreak. Awwwww......

Baring that bit of civil disobediance, we could always produce our own radio and television networks. Considering the decline that the major US networks are experiencing, an online radio show dedicated to ACCURATE technology reporting and substative commentary on the politics of technology policy could be a winner. I know that TechTV was supposed to fulfill that role and now its focus is largely games, but that doesn't mean the demand for such programming is in demand. The first kids shows on television were HORRIBLE, but eventually their production value increased and today we have slick, hip programming for kids.

How many slashdotters are there? We all come here to read and yell at each other. There certainly must be a market for the audio/visual version of this, this.....

... stuff.

Subconscious copying: Case number two

[tepples]

When you can show a repeated pattern, then your argument will have some merit, instead of just a legal "one off".

In law, it's not called a "one off"; it's called a "precedent". Even so, finding of liability for copyright infringement by subconscious copying is not isolated; see Three Boys Music v. Michael Bolton, 212 F.3d 477 (9th Cir. 2000).

I'm afraid.

[Necroist]

Someone hold me.

Singapore has signed a FTA with U.S too, along with Australia.

Now where did I put my Thermal Explosive Hard-Disk Destroyer 2004.

For those who wonder...

[game kid]

...that was me by the way. My dad's are big Irwin fan. I just look at the guy* and think WTF? sometimes. At least it's fun to watch and imagine him actually getting mauled. I tried BitTorrent a few times but in the end it was like Lindsay Lohan trying pot: I hated it.** I mean, if you are looking for stuff you have to depend on websites, and having to search them on Google/etc. is a bit scary 'cause the __AAs watch everything even if it's legal. I don't trust anonymizers either, so I'll just stick with actual TV. Or FM radio or something. Otherwise I'd be raided like that ISP.

*Irwin...and sometimes my dad too when he watches.

**I, of course, cannot vouch for an actress' truth...but at least she's hot. IMVHO.