Followup on MS and Brazil in NY Times

putko was one of dozens to submit a story running on the NY Times about Open Source and Brazil. The choice quote is "We're not going to spend taxpayers' money on a program so that Microsoft can further consolidate its monopoly..."

Comments

NYT article.

[Anonymous Coward]

Brazil: Free Software's Biggest and Best Friend
By TODD BENSON

SÃO PAULO, Brazil, March 28 - Since taking office two years ago, President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva has turned Brazil into a tropical outpost of the free software movement.

Looking to save millions of dollars in royalties and licensing fees, Mr. da Silva has instructed government ministries and state-run companies to gradually switch from costly operating systems made by Microsoft and others to free operating systems, like Linux. On Mr. da Silva's watch, Brazil has also become the first country to require any company or research institute that receives government financing to develop software to license it as open-source, meaning the underlying software code must be free to all.

Now Brazil's government looks poised to take its free software campaign to the masses. And once again Microsoft may end up on the sidelines.

By the end of April, the government plans to roll out a much ballyhooed program called PC Conectado, or Connected PC, aimed at helping millions of low-income Brazilians buy their first computers.

And if the president's top technology adviser gets his way, the program may end up offering computers with only free software, including the operating system, handpicked by the government instead of giving consumers the option of paying more for, say, a basic edition of Microsoft Windows.

"For this program to be viable, it has to be with free software," said Sérgio Amadeu, president of Brazil's National Institute of Information Technology, the agency that oversees the government's technology initiatives. "We're not going to spend taxpayers' money on a program so that Microsoft can further consolidate its monopoly. It's the government's responsibility to ensure that there is competition, and that means giving alternative software platforms a chance to prosper."

Microsoft has offered to provide a simplified, discounted version of Windows for the program. Though a final decision on which software to install has been delayed several times, as has the program's rollout, Mr. Amadeu and some other government officials have publicly criticized Microsoft's proposal, calling the version's abilities too limited.

Still, Microsoft has not given up just yet. The company, which declined to make an executive available for an interview, said in a statement that it was still "working with the PC Conectado project to see if there's a way Microsoft can help."

Under the program, which is expected to offer tax incentives for computer makers to cut prices and a generous payment plan for consumers, the government hopes to offer desktops for around 1,400 reais ($509) or less. The machines will be comparable to those costing almost twice that outside the program.

Buyers will be able to pay in 24 installments of 50 to 60 reais, or about $18 to $21.80 a month, an amount affordable for many working poor. The country's top three fixed-line telephone companies - Telefónica of Spain; Tele Norte Leste Participações, or Telemar; and Brasil Telecom - have agreed to provide a dial-up Internet connection to participants for 7.50 reais, or less than $3, a month, allowing 15 hours of Web surfing.

The program aims at households and small-business owners earning three to seven times the minimum monthly wage, or about $284 to $662. The government says seven million qualify, and it hopes to reach a million of them by year-end.

That may seem ambitious in a developing country of 183 million people where only 10 percent of all households have Internet access and just 900,000 computers are sold legally each year. (Including black-market sales, the number is closer to four million, still a small fraction of the number sold in the United States last year, according to the International Data Corporation, a technology research firm.)

"We're well aware that we're talking about doubling the domestic market for personal compu

Re:NYT article.

[stlhawkeye]

(Including black-market sales, the number is closer to four million, still a small fraction of the number sold in the United States last year, according to the International Data Corporation, a technology research firm.) Meaningless. The US has far more than 183 million people. What percentage of homes have computers? It said 10% have internet access... I hate statistics.

Re:NYT article.

[JackAtCepstral]

Exactly. People can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of all people know that.

Re:NYT article.

[jbolden]

You are trying to conflate three issues:

1) Do /.ers agree that governments should interfere in a free technology market?

2) Does a free technology market exist for the government to interfere in?

3) Do /.ers agree that the choice of technologies the government of Brazil is making are good?

The answers are: no, no and yes. There is no contradiction here. The people of Brazil will have the option of buying a Windows OS from a store blowing away their shipped configuration and installing Windows. That's the same right that Americans today enjoy with respect to Linux. It will be interesting to see how many people do that.

Re:NYT article.

[Paradise Pete]

That the masses cannot be allowed to make their own choices, because their choices might include Microsoft?

I don't think Brazil is making it illegal to use Microsoft software. They are simply not subsidizing its use.

Re:NYT article.

[Eccles]

They're not offering Mac OS X either. Nor AmigaOS, BSD, Gnu/HURD, Irix, Solaris, VMS, MS-DOS, Plan9, BeOS...

Get the point? Choosing one OS for a gov't program is not a paternalistic choice. the citizens of Brazil are free to choose another OS.

Re:NYT article.

[dusik]

"The people of Brazil will have the option of buying a Windows OS from a store blowing away their shipped configuration and installing Windows. That's the same right that Americans today enjoy with respect to Linux. It will be interesting to see how many people do that."

Zero (give or take a few). Some might communise... *ahem* I mean steal a copy of Windows and reformat their hard drive. However, since most of these people have never used a PC much, they won't really have much motivation to switch to Windows. The reason that a lot of people insist on using Windows is because they're used to it, so it's easy for them. They often complain about their favourite programmes not being available under Linux. The poor Brazilians in question do not yet have such a collection of favourite programmes.

Re:NYT article.

[BohKnower]

It is nice to see someone praising Mr. Amadeu for his work. A company, which we know very well, already sued him for his thoughts on open source.

Re:NYT article.

[hass]

Isn't it strange, for all the talk of an anarchic, libertarian, freedom on Slashdot, that it is a paternalistic government's choice of O/S and software for the poor that is being applauded here? That the masses cannot be allowed to make their own choices, because their choices might include Microsoft?

I don't see why people should be forced to pay for software when they don't want/need it. If some people decide they need Microsoft Windows they can buy it and load it on themselves.

Re:NYT article.

[stinerman]

Speak for yourself.

I answered 'yes' to question one, and I am a slashdotter.

Re:NYT article.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who are these mythical "/.ers" you keep talking about? Slashdot has over 800000 registered acounts. You seem to think all 800000 must have the same opinion.

The Brazilian government is doing a great thing. This scheme is intended to help stimulate their economy and grow their educated classes. They're using Brazilian tax money to do it. Why should they squander that tax money on proprietary software from anyone, Microsoft or otherwise? Free Software can be used for nothing, or a fraction of the price. It's a sound economic decision.

Re:NYT article.

[peacefinder]

You're echoing an argument from TFA:

"'The government shouldn't be the one who decides what hardware and software will go into these computers,' said Júlio Semeghini, a member of Congress from the opposition Social Democratic Party. 'That's undemocratic.'"

It may be handpicked by the government, but (unless there's something very important left out of the article) it's not mandatory software. Someone could buy one of these machines, and then install a different operating system on it once they get it home.

(This is really only slightly different than what US PC suppliers do now. Suppliers choose an OS to preinstall, and if you don't like it you can change it once you own the hardware. Of course, the way it works here is that you pay for the MS OS, whether or not you intend to use it. In this proposed program, the customer will never pay for software they don't use, because the included software is gratis.)

Again, from TFA:

"But the preference for open-source software has been controversial, with critics inside and outside the government saying Mr. da Silva's administration is letting leftist ideology trump the laws of supply and demand."

It seems to me this is a very demand-driven product. Or rather, it's an attempt to get a dormant market to bloom, and the success of the attempt is heavily dependent on the price point. At the price point they're looking to hit, they are required to make tradeoffs on cost.

At this point, there's no denying that free software is completely adequate for a cheap, preconfigured internet PC. Ideology aside, the program's directors have to ask themselves if the targeted market would be better served by spending money on a commercial OS instead of using free software and spending that money on better hardware. Given the price of regular Win XP Home, the price and capabilities of the stripped Windows that Microsoft offers for third-world customers, and the amount of RAM that same money would buy, it's hard to see how that cost tradeoff could possibly come out in favor of Microsoft's commercial software as a baseline for the entire program.

If XP Home cost $20 instead of $100, maybe Microsoft could win here. As it is, though, I don't see how they possibly could win a fair contest in this context.

Re:NYT article.

[2old2rockNroll]

The reason that a lot of people insist on using Windows is because they're used to it, so it's easy for them. They often complain about their favourite programmes not being available under Linux. The poor Brazilians in question do not yet have such a collection of favourite programmes.

Those all sound like excellent reasons for the Brazilian government to promote Linux and free software and export less money to Microsoft. Some countries understand that free trade is not the same as fair trade.

Re:NYT article.

[gadget junkie]

" They're not offering Mac OS X either. Nor AmigaOS, BSD, Gnu/HURD, Irix, Solaris, VMS, MS-DOS, Plan9, BeOS... "

......Mmmmmmm, let's see. "User", by definition, is not one that meddles into how the thingy works. I do not see many cars with the bonnets up, and their happy owners using up the last of their wrenches.

BUT, maybe, just maybe, a small percentage of the users will want to see how it all works, and start trying to change the program, a bit here, a bit there...and voilà, as a country, you are the happy owner of at least a hundred linux programmers!

So, the moral is... you have a home grown software industry. No windows user grows into a windows programmer unless he's able to access MORE programs, probably formal training. And anyway, the thing that can scare Brazil off the most is that MS quashed competitors in the US, , so there's no point in trying to establish a MS centric software industry.

Re:NYT article.

[michelcultivo]

But here in Brazil the things looks different. When you go to a computer school the first operatining system that you have contact is Microsoft Windows. There isn't schools with accessible price that can teach you how to use Linux. And this iniciative by the government is lovable and is bringing the so called "Digital Inclusion" to poor people.

Re:NYT article.

[bogado]

They often complain about their favourite programmes not being available under Linux. The poor Brazilians in question do not yet have such a collection of favourite programmes.

You forget that many of these poor people live very near to rich and middle class people. Many of them have seen computers and used in some friend home. It seems to me very probable that those people will fell bad that these computers are not capable of running "that game" he saw in his richer friend's computer.

Re:NYT article.

[adamfranco]

It seems to me this is a very demand-driven product. Or rather, it's an attempt to get a dormant market to bloom, and the success of the attempt is heavily dependent on the price point. At the price point they're looking to hit, they are required to make tradeoffs on cost.

Its not just price-point, but social value as well. Any government-sponsored program has a responsibility to its citizens to deliver value for their tax money.

Using FOSS will give thousands (even if they are a small percent of the total users) of low-income Brazilians the chance to tinker with their software and learn about programming and how computers work. The vast majority of users will just use the computers for other things, but the benefit of having an easily programmable computer readily accessible will be a huge boon to those whose interest is sparked. The resulting free (to the government) self-education and growth in the tech-skills in Brazil's population are social benefits that won't be found with proprietary software at any cost.

Just think of the number of kids who would learn how to program if their family's home computer ran FOSS.

In response to the cynical, I for one was interested in learning how to program since middle-school (~1991-1994) but didn't get around to learning till most of the way through college ~2001. Why the delay? Well, I tried installing various programming tools on Windows over the years but never really knew where to start. In my experience "Hello World" on Windows involved setting up an IDE, trying to figure out where to put things, learning the IDE and all sorts of other fluff that obscured the process and resulting in me never actually succeeding in getting a "Hello World" to run until I tried Linux in ~2001.

Now, I'm sure that there are simpler ways to program things on Windows, but I never found them. Contrast this with Linux:

• Make a text file called helloworld.sh with one line:
  echo "Hello World";
• Open a terminal and make the file executable:
  chmod u+x helloworld.sh
• Run the program in the terminal: ./helloworld.sh

Yeah, this is just bash, and yadda yadda yadda, but its a starting point. Give people such an easily accessible starting point and some of them are bound to make use of it. The tech economy of Brazil can only but be helped by such increases in domestic talent

Re:NYT article.

[peacefinder]

Its not just price-point, but social value as well.

I don't disagree at all. However, I focused on the argument I did to show that no factors outside the dollar marketplace are necessary for FOSS to defeat commercial software in this context. Those who argue for the merits of the free market will be hard pressed to find a rational win for Microsoft here. Live by market rhetoric, die by market rhetoric. :-)

The existance of additional benefit in social terms is wonderful, of course. Go Brazil.

About that quote...

[Noryungi]

One word: Ouch.

Re:About that quote...

[TheRaven64]

Especially amusing seeing the MS `Does Linux Lower Your TCO' adverts splattered all over this story...

Re:About that quote...

[fitten]

Actually, that quote makes me think much less of the guy. Basically, he's using things that are 'tickling to the ear' to promote his own agenda. Microsoft has already been pretty much stopped in their tracks as far as "monopoly" is concerned (at least slowed down a lot by the EU and others). Witness the browser usages and the adoption of other OSs like Linux and OS X (Microsoft's market share is already slipping across the board).

Anyone who is now claiming that they are "preventing the further spread of the Microsoft monopoly" is just latching on to the tail end of a popular train that has already left the station in order for some of the trend to rub off on himself ni order to attempt to gain favor.

Have to say . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with one of the sentiments in the article:-

Others say the government should focus its technology initiatives elsewhere, especially in schools. Only 19 percent of Brazil's public schools have computers.

This is where technology can be most wisely spent, where it will have the greatest benefit, and where kids will actually learn about computers.

Of course it'll also be most effective at creating a mindset that isn't geared towards using MS products.

Re:Have to say . . .

[Uptown Joe]

Maybe if American schools learned from the Brazilians we could have more computers at all levels... (good computers, without the security problems)

At the k-5th level my daughter had computers in the classroom. They were little Wyse terminals connected to a Windows server, but they had fast internet access and access to a bunch of learning programs. There were about 13 computers to 25 kids in her 3rd grade class. It was really cool. I would go into the classroom and help out on Fridays, sometimes showing the kids how to make PowerPoint presentations.

Syd is a 6th grader now and there are only about 3 computers to 30 kids in a classroom. Middle school is 6th - 8th grade (for those of you that don't have kids or have forgotten your school daze) so I can kind of understand why they don't have a ton of connected systems for the horny 7th and 8th grade boys, but damn it really seems like the middle schools are left out compared to the grammar schools. I hope that high school is better...

Re:Have to say . . .

[Hognoxious]

Middle school is 6th - 8th grade (for those of you that don't have kids or have forgotten your school daze)

Thank you for clarifying that. Now what is it for those of that live in, you know, the rest of the world?

Re:Have to say . . .

[DamnRogue]

Honestly, I learned the most about computers from playing games. My experiences as a kid messing with networks so that I could play Doom with my friends taught me far more than anything I did in the classroom. There's nothing like real-world application.

Re:Have to say . . .

[Hognoxious]

We had a lot of computers at the schools I went to and I learned nothing from them except how to type.

Maybe you're right: Doubts about school computer use .

Re:Have to say . . .

[Uptown Joe]

I was working at my first computer store when Doom came out... I remember stringing coax all over the f-ing place so that we could network our Windows 3.11 for Workgroups 486s. 4 player deathmatch! It's all fun and games until the bnc coax terminator falls off.

Re:Have to say . . .

[jbolden]

In general:

6th grade = 11-12
7th grade = 12-13
8th grade = 13-14

Re:Have to say . . .

[jbolden]

I think technically a 7-9th grade is a Junior High while a Middle School is 6-8th grade.

Re:Have to say . . .

[DrSkwid]

How computers make kids dumb

Computers bad for kids

etc.

Re:Have to say . . .

[Marthisdil]

Of course it'll also be most effective at creating a mindset that isn't geared towards using MS products.

Yeah - show them a system that they can't play games on, thus, making them want Windows even more so they CAN play games. Sure, you can make SOME games play on Linux (some even have native clients). But well, buying Cedega and trying to make the game work...well, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Not too many kids care much about working with the commandline and hack-proofing things. Some do...but most just wanna have a computer that will do what they wanna do - and for most kids, it's play games.

Re:Have to say . . .

[jadavis]

[Schools are] where technology can be most wisely spent

You could say the same thing about any resource, and it just doesn't make sense in many situations.

My High School had computers, and the only thing I ever used them for was reading /., which required installing an HTTP proxy on a remote server to bypass the filters. I found out after I graduated, they bought class sets of wirelessly-networked mini laptops for the students.

This was in a supposedly "cash-strapped" school that strictly limited numbers of copies, etc.

To me, the whole thing is rediculous. Education is not expensive. If people really want to learn, they can learn very cheaply (like in China or India). If people don't value their education, you can spend millions and they won't learn anything.

Sweeping statements advocating the allocation of all possible resources to school sound to me like regurgitating what the teachers' unions tell you.

In Brazil, where many people can't get access to a computer, sure, have a few around for the truly interested students. But most of the computers will be more productive when used for business purposes, creating high-quality jobs.

Re:Have to say . . .

[l0b0]

This is where technology can be most wisely spent, where it will have the greatest benefit, and where kids will actually learn about computers.

How do you mean? At my school, they had a few (old) computers, but the pupils never got to use them. The teachers were totally clueless, and none of them cared for computer education. So, for computers in schools to be a success, you need to have:

• Lots of computers (standing behind someone's back is not going to teach you anything)
• New teacher programmes, to teach them the how and why they should teach CS
• On-site support until teachers have knowledge and time to troubleshoot
• "Bullet-proof" hardware

At home, the computer is available 24/7, and you have to answer to your parents if something breaks. Besides, who ever learned more about computers from school than from home?

Re:Have to say . . .

[2old2rockNroll]

I would go into the classroom and help out on Fridays, sometimes showing the kids how to make PowerPoint presentations.

Ye gods, what's the fun in being a kid anymore?

Mommy, Mommy! Daddy taught us how to make deadly boring bullet points today!

Re:Have to say . . .

[hey!]

Great educators are what makes a school great. Computers are the icing on the cake.

However, computers in the home will help people participate in an economy in which information is an important component.

Good..

[Keck]

If only other politicians had enough backbone to use tax money in ways that benefit all the people who paid for it, instead of ingraining a monopoly ...

Re:Good..

[antifoidulus]

At the end of the day though, the government should decide on what gets the job done with the least amount of money. If it's open source, it's open source, if not, it's not. I really don't need my tax dollars going to fund an(other) ideaology, I want them to just work.

Re:Good..

[Trolling4Columbine]

...or not take that money in the first place so people can decide how they want to spend it on their own.

Re:Good..

[Nos.]

the government should decide on what gets the job done with the least amount of money
I can't agree with you there. Its not about what's cheapest. A government looking to purchase or build anything (software, roads, a desk, etc.) should not decide solely on price. This is when we get into complaining about the "lowest bidder" and the crappy work they do. The government, like anyone, should choose a product based on cost AND quality. Sometimes its better to spend more if it will save time/money/lives later on.

Re:Good..

[Keck]

Well the thing about that is, governments should be in the business of long-term thinking; ours are stuck with a short-term perspective, largely because of elections and term limits. If you are only interested in the short term, then don't develop anything new that you don't have to, and don't have any competition -- just buy it and move on. But if you are interested in things like:

a) having tax money benefit the taxpayers before corporations
b) encouraging an active culture of competition (which *should* lower prices while increasing value)
c) remaining independant of corporate interests
d) All of the above, so that the overall cost in the long term will be much less

Then you would do quite well to fund an 'open' ideology and not line Billy Boy's pockets...

Just a question of perspective, not short term costs.

Re:Good..

[KiltedKnight]

Unfortunately, governments (at least here in the US) tend to operate on a "How much is it going to cost right now?" They don't always think about how much it will cost to redo/rebuild/replace it five years from now.

You're asking for a lot to have the government to say, "Let's take the bid that gives us the best bang for our buck," instead of, "Ah, this is the lowest bid."

Re:Good..

[pixelpusher220]

Sometimes its better to spend more if it will save time/money/lives later on.

Agreed, and spending *more* to convert/train/implement open source in the short term *will* save you much more money in the long run.

Re:Good..

[torpor]

what gets the job done with the least amount of money

Well, the government should spend the money in a way that benefits the most amount of people, not one that 'gets the job done' for a few.

If it takes a little longer, but gets the job done for more people, then its the better route to take than, "gets the job done in the least amount of time, for a little benefit for a few".

See the difference?

And as for your tax dollars funding ideology, umm.. what the hell do you think "tax" is, anyway? One HUUUUUUGE ideology, buddy. Pay that tax, fund ideologies: thats the way all government works. Get off your "anti-ideology" strawman position, I'd say ..

Re:Good..

[MindStalker]

At the end of the day though, the government should decide on what gets the job done with the least amount of money.

No they shouldn't, because from a government perspective money is fairly meaningless, they print it afterall. Of course there are limits to the amount of money a government can spend obviously. But as long as its kept within the country its simply "the people" borrowing and taxing from themselves. Whats really important is how much physical labor is spent obtaining what you need. Directly no physical labor by brazilians are needed to purchase Microsoft because its another country doing the work. But indirectly those dollars have to come from somewhere, most likly labor done by brazilians which are exported out to other countries. So they can continue overworking their poor to send basic goods to other countries to trade for software. Or they can invest in training their own people and using their own peoples talents to develop software for the common good. Sound like communism I guess, but its more of a story of inhousing vs outsourcing. And when you are trading millions of hours of manual labor for a few thousand hours or mental labor, especially when some of the same people can be trained and move from the physical to mental labor division with only expense being training and no pay raise (smart people don't cost the government more, possibly they make them more in taxes infact) its a win-win situation.

Re:Good..

[Travis Fisher]

If only other politicians had enough backbone to use tax money in ways that benefit all the people who paid for it, instead of ingraining a monopoly ... But from a Darwinian perspective, it is a better strategy for politicians to use tax money in ways that benefit the people who will pay for their re-election. At least that's how it works at the national level, where elections are about big budget campaigns.

Re:Good..

[latroM]

At the end of the day though, the government should decide on what gets the job done with the least amount of money.

Well, slavery is a good thing then, right? You get people working for you for free. Free Software is about freedom and ethics, like the question of slavery.

Re:Good..

[cesspool]

"Capitalism is fueled by Greed. Socialism is fueled by Envy. Which is your sin?"

personally, im a big fan of Sloth ...

Re:Good..

[robertjw]

Unfortunately, governments (at least here in the US) tend to operate on a "How much is it going to cost right now?"

That isn't always true - it depends on which part of the government you are looking at, what kind of mood they are in, how much money they have and a few other factors. Look at the NSA Linux project. I'm sure it took more time and money to put together than buying Windows off the shelf.

I used to work for a company that did some engine controls for the military, navy ships mostly. Their specs and test procedures were incredible. The equipment wasn't the most current technology, but they wanted to make SURE the control we built for their ships worked, no matter the cost.

Actually, it seems like more often than not governments are willing to spend lots of money, especially on things like technology. Now, if it's a new road or school building they are going to be as cheap as possible. OTOH if it's new toys for them and their staff most government officals will spring for the best.

Re:Good..

[NanoGator]

"Agreed, and spending *more* to convert/train/implement open source in the short term *will* save you much more money in the long run."

Only if the software is up to snuff. If MS creates a new feature set that dramatically improves productivity and OSS falls behind, suddenly the money they saved is not as much.

Re:Good..

[ILikeRed]

The government, like any other organization, must make moral decisions also. I would argue that a good government must be a transparent government, which means Freedom to access data... and where as proprietary software could use Free data structures, Microsoft's software does not, instead using formats as a competitive tool. That lockin should be a consideration for any organization, but even more so for a government.

Re:Good..

[One_6453]

I beg to differ, what about programs like social security? It is based on an ideology (help the less fortunate). Its not all about price

Re:Good..

[bhalo05]

But yoy will not be independant if you do not use free software. That should be a priority for a public administration.

Re:Good..

[NanoGator]

"But yoy will not be independant if you do not use free software. That should be a priority for a public administration."

The priority of the administration has to be 'getting the job done'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Open Source. Frankly, I'd love for the gov't to use it. (The last thing the gov't needs is to go through upgrade hell because the next version of Office taints the .DOC format.) However, I can't help but think about some of the problems I had trying to get OpenOffice going at my previous job. For our particular purposes, we needed ActiveX support. We had customers that would send us docs that, surprise surprise, weren't properly opened. One employee had gotten rather good at using VB with Excel. He wasn't thrilled when he got OO. Etc.

Now, just to be clear, this was at least a couple of years ago, maybe longer. My point is NOT that OO isn't ready. I am not saying that, please don't respond telling me all about how I'm wrong. Instead, my point is that at the end of the day, productivity is king. That may not be Slashdot's popular opinion, that may not even be wise, but it is reality.

All I can say is I'm glad I no longer have a job that orbited around Office.

Re:Good..

[sbrown123]

For our particular purposes, we needed ActiveX support.

For office documents thats just plain scary. Our company installed a email filter that would prevent documents from being communicated if they included these. Security has been none the better.

We had customers that would send us docs that, surprise surprise, weren't properly opened.

OpenOffice does an okay job at converting MS Office documents to its format. Not perfect though. The only way for OpenOffice to work 100% of the time is if your customers to all use OpenOffice. Thats some times hard to do depending on the companies position with its customers.

One employee had gotten rather good at using VB with Excel. He wasn't thrilled when he got OO. Etc.

Thats too bad for him. Guess he will have to learn new skills. I couldn't imagine holding a company up because of a single employee's limited skill set.

Instead, my point is that at the end of the day, productivity is king.

But as a manager you would know that money comes first. Productivity can be purchased with money saved.

Re:Good..

[ScoLgo]

"If MS creates a new feature set that dramatically improves productivity and OSS falls behind, suddenly the money they saved is not as much."

Yes. But if that happens at least MS has been forced by competition to innovate. Something that most likely won't happen, (at least as quickly), without the market pressures currently being exerted by OSS.

Besides, there is always a leap-frog effect. Someone innovates - someone else builds a better mousetrap. Rinse, lather, repeat.

In the end, the consumers win. Which is a good deal all around, IMO.

Re:Good..

[Wybaar]

I used to work for a company that did some engine controls for the military, navy ships mostly. Their specs and test procedures were incredible. The equipment wasn't the most current technology, but they wanted to make SURE the control we built for their ships worked, no matter the cost.

Of course. You don't want your latest & greatest warship steaming out of port on its maiden voyage going *putt* *putt* *putt* [or even worse, not steaming out of port on its maiden voyage at all.]

Actually, it seems like more often than not governments are willing to spend lots of money, especially on things like technology. Now, if it's a new road or school building they are going to be as cheap as possible.

You've got that right.

Re:Good..

[NanoGator]

"For office documents thats just plain scary. Our company installed a email filter that would prevent documents from being communicated if they included these. Security has been none the better."

We didn't have security problems either, but we did have a badly needed ActiveX control.

"the only way for OpenOffice to work 100% of the time is if your customers to all use OpenOffice."

Red flag.

"Thats too bad for him. Guess he will have to learn new skills."

I hate this lame attitude. The dude wasn't a programmer. The mere fact that he picked up VBA was astonishing.

" I couldn't imagine holding a company up because of a single employee's limited skill set."

I couldn't imagine holding a company up to shoehorn the wrong software into the workflow.

"But as a manager you would know that money comes first."

I'm not a manager.

This is why I hate writing about my experiences with OSS software. I was really clear that the problems we had with OO were not the point of my post. Despite that, somebody has to sweep on in and tell me about how my company deserved what it got or whatever. I just hope the development community isn't as detached from business reality. Otherwise forget about MS's monopoly getting broken.

Re:Good..

[raddan]

Yes, case in point: the Big Dig here in Boston. At the moment, because of shoddy work, we have tunnels leaking water. Going for the lowest bidder in this case resulted in having a contractor that not only grossly underestimated their costs (and thus had major cost overruns), but cut every corner that they could to stay profitable. Combine that with the stubborn fool that ran the government's oversight office, and you have our current situation.

Who knows, maybe if we had gone with the most qualified contractor in the beginning, we wouldn't be in this mess...

Re:Good..

[bhalo05]

The priority of the administration has to be 'getting the job done'.

I disagree. Mantaining control over the technology used should be part of 'getting the job done'

In a letter sent in reply to Microsoft, a congressman of Peru pointed out some priorities for their administration:

• Free access to public information by the citizen.
• Permanence of public data.
• Security of the State and citizens.
• To guarantee the free access of citizens to public information, it is indespensable that the encoding of data is not tied to a single provider. The use of standard and open formats gives a guarantee of this free access, if necessary through the creation of compatible free software.

http://www.gnu.org.pe/resmseng.html

This letter explains my position far better than I could ever do. So no, not everything should be built on productivity alone. That may be true in a private company (and I think it should not be a desirable position either), but not in public administrations.

Re:Good..

[Ciofey]

Nope.

At the end of the day, I would like to know that an electronic election was made with transparent software, so that the government can guarantee that my vote is registered correctly.

In fact, I would like government work to be transparent, including making its work accessible for every citizen, meaning that the way data is stored and manipulated is transparent, so that anyone can build their own reader/manipulator for the data, preferrably over a long period of time.

I'd rather live in a free country without Microrigged elections, than have two Euro extra while Microsoft runs the government because said government decided to go with Microsoft because it was deemed cheap at the time.

OTOH...

If you are talking about selecting the cheapest solution as "the solution that will provide the most wealth for the population over a long period of time", then I agree with you.

Ramblingly yours,

Re:Good..

[NanoGator]

"I disagree. Mantaining control over the technology used should be part of 'getting the job done'"

Yes, provided the technology can do the job in the first place.

(Note: I'm not saying it can't today, I'm merely pointing out that the gov't isn't going to suddenly become a software company just for the sake of flipping off Microsoft.)

Re:Good..

[xgamer04]

At the end of the day though, the government should decide on what gets the job done with the least amount of money. ... I really don't need my tax dollars going to fund an(other) ideology, ...

The problem here is that no matter what the government spends money on, it is implicitly supporting one ideology or another. If Microsoft/Apple/Linux/Wal-Mart is the cheapest, is that not supporting a certain type of business ideology, no matter which vendor it is?

Re:Good..

[sbrown123]

We didn't have security problems either, but we did have a badly needed ActiveX control.

ActiveX is a nightmare in security terms. Either embedded in a browser or an Office document, it is just bad to use. There are hundreds of sites on the internet that will agree with that view. There are much better ways of getting work done without the worry.


"the only way for OpenOffice to work 100% of the time is if your customers to all use OpenOffice."

Red flag.

Red flag? Hello! You can't get 100% in Microsoft Office using company even if all the employees are using Microsoft Office. The incompatibilities between the versions of Word, Excel, etc is amazing. And even if you get everyone in your office using the same version you still have your customers to deal with who probably are not at the same version. Unlike Microsoft document formats, OpenOffice was smart and went with using XML. I'm not a big fan of XML, but it really makes sense here.


I couldn't imagine holding a company up to shoehorn the wrong software into the workflow.

You have never really gave a valid reason why OpenOffice is the "wrong" software unless you believe that its lack in support of ActiveX is an issue to businesses.

I was really clear that the problems we had with OO were not the point of my post.

What really was the point of your post? That it didnt work at a company you worked at several years ago since that company was using an ActiveX control in Office documents?

Despite that, somebody has to sweep on in and tell me about how my company deserved what it got or whatever.

Im curious: what did your company get?

I just hope the development community isn't as detached from business reality.

Its not. We are listening. Is it your business need that you believe OO needs to support ActiveX?

Otherwise forget about MS's monopoly getting broken.

The real magic behind OSS is that if you don't like something: change it. The codes all there. If your not a programmer you can participate by helping write documents, post bugs, and submit your ideas to the mailing lists. Those are just as important as writing the code, in my view anyways.

Re:Good..

[marcosdumay]

I would prefer that my government spend money in a way that make people of my country richer. Not someone far, far away...

Re:Good..

[NanoGator]

"ActiveX is a nightmare in security terms. "

Doesn't matter, we still had an ActiveX control we needed.

"The incompatibilities between the versions of Word, Excel, etc is amazing."

We couldn't get Word and PowerPoint docs from OpenOffice (earlier version. Today would likely be a different story.) to Office and back. Didn't work.

"You have never really gave a valid reason why OpenOffice is the "wrong" software unless you believe that its lack in support of ActiveX is an issue to businesses."

It didn't mix well with Office. I stated this before, we recieved and transmitted stuff to external sources.

"What really was the point of your post? That it didnt work at a company you worked at several years ago since that company was using an ActiveX control in Office documents?"

No and I'm getting tired of explaining this. We had compatibility issues. If others don't have that prob, fine, but we DID.

"Its not. We are listening. Is it your business need that you believe OO needs to support ActiveX?"

OO needs to support everything that Office does. ActiveX is one, though these days that may not be all that necessary. VBA is another. Flawlessly opening and saving of docs that are compatible with Office are another feature OO needs to support.

"The real magic behind OSS is that if you don't like something: change it. The codes all there. "

A.) I am not a programmer. That feature is completely worthless to me.

B.) If my company were to write code to 'fix it', they might as well save a few bucks and just buy Office.

"If your not a programmer you can participate by helping write documents, post bugs, and submit your ideas to the mailing lists."

That is a fair point. However, the reality is if we're on a deadline, this option quickly loses value.

I will state a couple of things very clearly since they seem to keep getting lost:

1.) I'm not saying these are problems today. I don't know. Time has gone by and I'm reasonably certain OO has had a version or two come along in that time.

2.) My point was NOT specifically about OO. I was making a general statement, not a specific one. If the software does its job, then there's no more to discuss. If it doesn't, then the gov't will have to use what suits their purposes.

3.) Arrogance is not helping OO. Whoop-de-doo, ActiveX is scary. Understood. It's still a feature that Office supports that OO does not. When one needs that feature, it has to be there.

Great!

[chris09876]

Brazil has also become the first country to require any company or research institute that receives government financing to develop software to license it as open-source, meaning the underlying software code must be free to all.

This is really a wonderful, wonderful idea. It's a shame more governments haven't adopted this philosophy. Lots of governments just find it so easy to spend money that they didn't "earn". I have to congratulate Brazil on this!

Re:Great!

[Karpe]

I'm a brazilian researcher. Public universities, like the one I work at, are responsible by the largest part of scientific research in Brazil. While most of what we develop is open source, it is not because any government requirement (I had never heard about this "requirement" prior to reading this article), but by the nature of what we do. I am pretty sure many people develop closed source software in the universities. Do we get government financing? Well, you could say that, since the government pays the universities bills (electricity, communications), professors salaries, etc. But that's mostly all about it. It doesn't have any money left to spend on researchers, equipment, etc, and universities have to find financing elsewhere (typically in cooperation projects with the private sector, who, among other things, requires NDAs and ownership to some of the deliveries of this funded research).

Free software, in Brazil, has become much more of a publicity stunt, and definitely used for self-promotion by a lot of people. But definitely not that close to our reality. It is a pitty and a shame.

Re:Great!

[allanpatrick]

I had never heard about this "requirement" prior to reading this article

FINEP http://www.finep.gov.br/ (Research and Projects Financing) was funding free software on scientific research.

Announcement (Portuguese): http://www.softwarelivre.gov.br/noticias/FinepCT-I NFO/view

Re:Great!

[Vitriol Angst]

This is what our country should do as well. Most other scientific endeavors require public access to the data. I see no point in our government supporting proprietary code--our government should be doing things that help all citizens.

We desperately need opensource election software as well. We are spending about $50 million per state to put in various solutions that have no guarantee of security and are totally done out of public view. If $5 Million could be given to Universities like MIT or Georgia Tech, you could develop something cheaper and better. But I suppose, the whole point of having private industry do these things is that the pollticians involved don't want public access, control or light shined on things that feather their own pockets.

So, I absolutely don't think that opens-source will find its way into the U.S. government because it is physcally resposible, very Democratic and helps everyone equally. Very Un-American values.

Glad to here Brazil is becoming civilized in this regard, and Viva Venezuela while we are at it.

Re:Great!

[Lemmingue]

This is really a stupid, stupid idea. The government should finance software development of any kind, open or closed source. The closed source software will be sold and will generate revenues and jobs for the country, the same way.

HEH

[Anonymous Coward]

HEH, why do they assume it wil be use for power....MS could use it for other things too
- killing small animals
- searching for the lost city of gold
- etc

I love Brazil!

[IdleTime]

Not only do they have the hottest women in the world, but they have a government with a working brain too!

Re:I love Brazil!

[Anonymous Coward]

The brains of the government here in Brazil seem to be working quite well. But for corruption :(

I'm happy with the open-source initiative, I'm just sad with everything else. And with the people who elected our governors.

Re:I love Brazil!

[Anonymous Coward]

but they have a government with a working brain too!

Obviously you're not from down here.

Re:I love Brazil!

[mattyrobinson69]

link?

(woman, not government)

Re:I love Brazil!

[Minced]

What do you mean hot women? I thought Brazil was just full of ugly old english men? Brazil [imdb.com]

Re:I love Brazil!

[bergeron76]

Isn't "Mike in Brazil"?

I love Brazil too!

Re:I love Brazil!

[hey!]

Argentina is also well known as having a very high rate of cosmetic surgery. It may be related.

Re:I love Brazil!

[chochos]

I think you're confusing Argentina with Venezuela. It is very well known in Latin American countries that Venezuelan women are very beautiful because of surgery... Maybe it is becoming popular in Argentina also, but it's odd because Buenos Aires is full of very beautiful women who are naturally beautiful.

Re:I love Brazil!

[St. Arbirix]

Not only do they have the hottest women in the world, but they have a government with a working brain too!

If only they both had both qualities.

*ducks*

Another sources - no registration links

[A beautiful mind]

News.com

International Herald Tribune

Google News

Btw, does anyone know why does the link from slashdot asks me for registration, but not the one from Google News?

Re:Another sources - no registration links

[Shoeler]

One word: Referrer.

Re:Another sources - no registration links

[A beautiful mind]

Yeah, i suspected that they are filtering based on it, but i still don't get why?

Seems like a bad practice for me.

Re:Another sources - no registration links

[Ruud Althuizen]

Try http://bugmenot.com/ and their plug-in for firefox.

Re:Another sources - no registration links

[rastakid]

Yeah, i suspected that they are filtering based on it, but i still don't get why?

Because this is free advertisement for them.

Now all you need to do is set the referrer of your browser/proxy/whatever-technique to Google News and you can browse NYT freely...

Sharing

[Ruud Althuizen]

With more and more people and goverments getting the sharing idea, maybe one day we will have a ship called U.S.S. Enterprise.

Re:Sharing

[rhsanborn]

We do... http://www02.clf.navy.mil/enterprise/

Re:Sharing

[rhsanborn]

I know :P

Come up north!

[PhilippeT]

Who ever toughed the Brazil government to understand open source can you come up here to Canada and explain it to our government.
Theirs no way the American government would ever take into the idea of open source but Canada might.

Re:Come up north!

[tomstdenis]

Says the person forced to use MS Windows at work...

Where do you work btw Phil?

Tom

Re:Come up north!

[tomstdenis]

Nothing says objective government like a weekend on the "Gates the third" yacht...

Tom

Re:Come up north!

[cybergrue]

Already here.

GOSLING aka Getting Open Source Logic INto Government.

Their website is a bit out of date, but there is people working on it. Last I heard, the groups leader is helping set up a working group to investigate cost savings from using Open Source products, and he spoke of the savings that could be acrued from using a version of an Open Source product like Open Office vs. the continuing licenceing costs of using MS products. Yes, the price saving were evident even if they customised the suit to do the things they need, and doing their own maintenance.

commodities

[alatesystems]

The country's top three fixed-line telephone companies - Telefónica of Spain; Tele Norte Leste Participações, or Telemar; and Brasil Telecom - have agreed to provide a dial-up Internet connection to participants for 7.50 reais, or less than $3, a month, allowing 15 hours of Web surfing."

It's really amazing how we(Americans) take broadband for granted now. I don't see how I could go back to using dialup; it would seem like cruel and unusual punishment. Yet, to these people, many of whom are poor, just having a computer or internet access would be a boon.

Let alone only having 15 hours a month online! Note, the article says "allowing 15 hours"; I'm assumin that means per month. I download GIGS of stuff every day, and my computers are online 24/7/36[56]. Half an hour a day wouldn't even make me wake up in the morning.

It's all about perspective.

Re:commodities

[BeeRockxs]

Why do your computers run 24/7?
It's not like you use it when you sleep. And what about your electricity bills?

Re:commodities

[Anonymous Coward]

I download GIGS of stuff every day

He has already answered your question.

Re:commodities

[clambake]

Why do your computers run 24/7?
It's not like you use it when you sleep.

Wow, it's been many many years since I met someone like you... I DO, in fact, use it when I sleep. Email server collects my spam for me, bittorrent downloads my American TV, apt updates my machine every night, etc... What kind of strange world do YOU live in?

Re:commodities

[alatesystems]

Because I download stuff and I like to receive my instant messages. Plus I like not having to turn it on. I use flat panels, which turn off automagically after 20 minutes.

The computer uses a nominal amount of electricity compared to my washer or dryer or subs or whatever. And in any case, I don't care. I run United Devices(that's my team page, I'm cbenard) 24/7 as well on all the computers.

Re:commodities

[clambake]

It's really amazing how we(Americans) take broadband for granted now. I don't see how I could go back to using dialup; it would seem like cruel and unusual punishment.

You think you've got it bad... I live in Japan... in fear. In TERROR. One day, I will have to return to America, and I fear that day... the day when I will no longer have a 100Mbit fiber-optic line directly from the CO into my machine.

Re:commodities

[mattyrobinson69]

There's lots of things you can do with your computer while you sleep (i dont leave mine on every night but here's some reasons ive left it on before and reasons i might in the future)

installing gentoo
a lot of updating gentoo
downloading something really big
transcoding video's
recording a tv program with mythtv

Re:commodities

[LurkerXXX]

Psst. Not all Americans can get broadband. There are still lots that are too far out to get DSL or cable. My parents are among those.

Re:commodities

[Anonymous Coward]

It's really amazing how we (Asians) take broadband for granted now. Only 10Mbit broadband! And thats tops, most of the "westerners" only get 1.5Mbit, if even that. I download GIGS of stuff every hour, and my cellphone can download and store a dvd in 15 minutes. American DSL wouldn't even make me wake up in the morning.

Re:commodities

[BeeRockxs]

I live in a world where electricity is not dirt cheap. And collecting emails and downloading american TV with bittorrent works just fine during the day, as does updating with apt.

Re:commodities

[rakkasan]

Perspective is right. Mine is with broadband, my wife and I were shunned. Dinner was a 5 minute feeding frenzy followed by quick feet back to whatever was online. I made the decision to ditch broadband, the firewall machine, and the print server and s i m p l i f y our digital life to one pc on dial up. My son almost had a nervous breakdown (ok that's an exaggeration) unhooking from Bnet, but in the end I got dinnertime conversation back and actual human contact from my family. Sometimes a family needs to unplug. As a bonus my electric bill dropped 10 bucks too!

Re:commodities

[omarques]

In Brazil, we have free dialup access in most of the cities, and is pretty popular, and as good as paid access, so no problem with this "15 hours allowed" crap.
Chances are, the government made some agreement with AOL, or some other provider, that paid some money to include a CD in the pc's box.

Re:commodities

[clambake]

And collecting emails and downloading american TV with bittorrent works just fine during the day, as does updating with apt.

Apt, yes...

Collecting emails.. not so much. SOME mail servers will try again to send to an email address that seems to be down, but not all... So you will not get all your email. Also, the ones that do will usually use an exponential backoff, which means by the time you startup your email server, the resend delay may be two days so it'll be two days before you have a chance of getting it again.

As for bittorrent. While you are downloading you are also uploading too. Cutting off your connection when you haven't uploaded as much as you have downloaded is not being a polite bittorrent user.

Also, I forgot to mention my web-server. I'm in Tokyo. How will my parents in Texas be able to look at pictures of my cats if my webserver is down when they are awake?

Most of all, electricity IS dirt cheap, usually... If it isn't where you live, that is a problem... but you can get low-power-spec machines these days that still work very well as always-on servers.

It doesn't matter...

[JhAgA]

... if the equipment will come with Linux pre-installed. They will end up being replaced by the user by an easily bought U$2 pirated version of Windows XP anyway, sold in every corner of São Paulo. Or do you expect everyone will care to install Wine to play starcraft of use MSN? :D

P.S. - I'm Brazilian and despite the fear of fraud, like it is happing with the Zero Hunger program, I strongly support this initiative.

Re:It doesn't matter...

[deathguppie]

Most computer literate people, with experience on windows will switch to pirated copies of XP. Some will do it at the beckoning of their friends. But most will just use what comes with their computer so that they won't break their computer.

Funny thing is that when they see what will happen to their friends unpatched pirated copy of XP in a few months, they will realize that was a wise choice

Re:It doesn't matter...

[Illserve]

No it's not better. Microsoft still benefits when someone pirates XP, because they get a monkey on their back. And once they get used to XP's features, they'll be reluctant to change, even if that forces them to start paying for it because of new hoops they have to jump through.

It also means they are more likely to use IE and various other MS products.

Re:It doesn't matter...

[Minced]

It also means they are more likely to use IE and various other MS products. Those poor bastards...haven't they discovered FireFox yet?

Re:It doesn't matter...

[Technician]

And once they get used to XP's features, they'll be reluctant to change, even if that forces them to start paying for it because of new hoops they have to jump through.


They will do what a lot of people do. Use Windows 98 and Office 97. No auth problems and works fine for most stuff on a budget, especialy if it's borrowed from someone. At 15 hours/month on dial-up, there won't be many who are intersted in all the many MS updates to XP.

Re:It doesn't matter...

[Stoutlimb]

"Or do you expect everyone will care to install Wine to play starcraft of use MSN? :D"

Actually, I expect there will come a generation of good native Linux games, all done in Portugese. Lets hope English will be an option we can check off.

Re:It doesn't matter...

[listen]

They will end up being replaced by the user by an easily bought U$2 pirated version of Windows XP.

This is where Trusted Computing should come back and bite MS in the arse.

Seriously : it would not be hard to make these machines incompatible with Windows (eg. just have the bios boot differently), and still compatible with Linux (worst case, provide a kernel/grub patch). Say you are doing it to combat piracy: then if they modify Windows to cope, it kind of puts all those "We hate piracy" rants in perspective. They know the number of people who will buy windows on these PCs is minimal, so it would totally be a mind share preservation move.

Best news I have read in ages

[xiando]

It makes me happy that Brazil setting a good example by putting Open Source as a requirement. This means that other governments now will more seriously put this as a requirement. What makes me most happy is not that it gives Microsoft more power, but that it gives Open Source development a good push in the right direction. I do not think governments who turn to open source will save any money, though, Linux is equally expensive in the terms of support and those kind of things. But this does mean that the money that would go to closed vendors will now, at least in Brazil, be used to develop Open Source. And that development will in turn be put back into the community to the benefit of all. This is truly a nice day for all who use Open Source!

Re:Best news I have read in ages

[N3WBI3]

It makes me happy that Brazil setting a good example by putting Open Source as a requirement.

Yes because Government always does whats best.. Look I like the idea of a government encouraging OSS, even requiring open standards. A line is crossed when a government forces OSS (which is not the case here, but your comment indicates you wish it were).

What makes me most happy is not that it gives Microsoft more power, but that it gives Open Source development a good push in the right direction.

OSS software has done fine without the need for Governments to get involved. Look at fire fox, what government has done anything to force its use?

Re:Best news I have read in ages

[jbolden]

Governments are automatically involved. Our government:

1) Sets document standards for what can be submitted to the government

2) Uses only certain protocols

3) Purchases many millions of systems

4) Spends billions and harms are relations with other countries trying to spread US patent law and US copyright law abroad

5) Funds a percentage of early software development in terms of research grants.

6) Provides the educational system where people gain first exposure to various OSes

etc... They are involved.

Re:Best news I have read in ages

[N3WBI3]

(1-2) Yawn...

Did you read the part that said *Look I like the idea of a government encouraging OSS, even requiring open standards.* or are you just karma whoring?

6) Provides the educational system where people gain first exposure to various OSes

Except of course wnidows because thats evil American IP right??

Re:Best news I have read in ages

[Anonymous Custard]

Brazil's government isn forcing open source. You can install windows if you want. Actually, if they used wnidows then they'd be forcing windows, because they're spending tax money on it, whereas with linux you're not paying for something you won't use. They said that after careful thought they found they would get more benefit for less money using linux than using a cut-down windows. The $50-$100 or whatever MS is charging can be better spent on some other part of the program, either hardware or maybe an ISP stipend. Not to mention that everyone won't be locked into using Windows later when they want to conveniently upgrade years down the line.

Re:Best news I have read in ages

[IANAAC]

force...

You keep using this word - here and in other posts, where there is no force involved.

Re:Best news I have read in ages

[jbolden]

No I'm trying to make a point that the government can't be neutral. It makes choices. Right now the US government makes choices in favor of Microsoft.

Re:Best news I have read in ages

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not think governments who turn to open source will save any money, though, Linux is equally expensive in the terms of support and those kind of things

Hmm, Americans always seem confused by this. They fail to consider the cost of local labor vs. American labor (because in the US they are the same)

MS support costs US dollars for US technicians if it goes beyond a certain level (since MS source is closed). Linux support, once enough people in Brazil are sufficiently technically involved with it, will be paid for to Brazilian technicians in Brazilian reais.

I assure you this difference is not insignificant. And that's even if, as you imply, the cost in man hours might be the same.

Re:Best news I have read in ages

[N3WBI3]

Hey I dont know of any US government policy that encourages me to use MS... The government should push open standards (not based on political ideology) and whatever can meet those standards should be considered..

Re:Best news I have read in ages

[Locke2005]

You forgot 7) Is corrupt as all get-go.

Many years ago, our government mandated GOSIP (Government Open Systems Interconnection Profile). Many years later, how many of the computer systems used by the US government actually meet these requirements? None that I know of! As long as government can be swayed by the contributions of deep-pocketed corporations, we're better off not having the government involved in promoting operating systems...

Re:Best news I have read in ages

[jbolden]

Things they do to encourage Microsoft:

1) They buy lots and lots of copies and thus:
a) Train millions to use Microsoft product
b) encourage business that do business with the government to use their products
2) They release documents in Microsoft specific formats
3) They pay for research that aids Microsoft products
4) They purchase Microsoft products for most schools

etc...

Re:Best news I have read in ages

[rtb61]

Governments will save a huge amount of money switching to open source. It has far deeper ramifications than most people think. Consider the continued development of open source software within Brazil universities where the students work and study programs are actually working to improve open source software (essentially free software development for that country as the educational costs would have to be met any how) and when the students come out of university they will be actually on the bleeding edge of software development and be most effectively trained for future employment in local IT industries.

There will also a major reduction in IT trade deficit with money that would otherwise be leaving a country now invested locally for maximum benefit. As the effectiveness of a counties IT infrastructure become more intrinsically involved with the continued effective running of a country, any countries government that fails to insure as much IT independance and control as possible will end up leaving it's country at a major economic and stragtegic disadvantage, let alone keeping with the ludicrous notion of being permanently dependent upon one foreign company and being subject to it's whims in terms of future software development, lack of waranties and extreme greed (M$ = BS).

If this is the Brazil I remember

[murderlegendre]

Robert DeNiro will rappel into your living room and install a Linux machine, then set up your internet connection, while discussing the problems with Microsoft. That would so rock.

Re:If this is the Brazil I remember

[Tenebrious1]

Robert DeNiro will rappel into your living room and install a Linux machine, then set up your internet connection, while discussing the problems with Microsoft. That would so rock.

Lol... but then you'd come home one night, and see computer parts scattered all over the house, cat 5 cable strewn across the furniture and out of the walls. You'll see Gates and Ballimer in coveralls, holding a Linux distro cd in a pair of tongs...

Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[N3WBI3]

If your goal is to prevent monopoly thats all well and good but dont try to further justify it by throwing in things which are just plain hot air...

Under the program, which is expected to offer tax incentives for computer makers to cut prices and a generous payment plan for consumers, the government hopes to offer desktops for around 1,400 reais ($509) or less. The machines will be comparable to those costing almost twice that outside the program.

You can already get a dell for R$1499 which is very price competative with what your selling people.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

Unfortunately, price is not the only determinant. The hardware could be different. And most Linux distros come with a variety of tools, like office suites, graphic editors, games, etc.

Perhaps it's not hot air after all, if you look at the big picture.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[N3WBI3]

Unfortunately, price is not the only determinant. The hardware could be different. And most Linux distros come with a variety of tools, like office suites, graphic editors, games, etc.

I doubt a 500$ pc would be done better than anyone as they are done by Dell... And as for the software not only do dells come with but you can also run OO and other free software on them. As I said this will do nothing more to help the poor of brazil than buying them all a dell would have done..

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[northcat]

Sure, developing countries should completely alienate themselve from technology or any other 'frivolous' things and simply concentrate on it's people, all of whom are dying with malaria in the sewers. Only our overlords in the developed countries, who are living in heaven, should worry about technology. Smartass, what the fuck is a comment about Brazil's "poor" doing in reply to an article about Brazil and OSS? Get out of your mom's basement - it's worse than our sewers.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[N3WBI3]

Did you RTFA? or my post? Ill requote for you from teh article and my post... ARTICLE:
Under the program, which is expected to offer tax incentives for computer makers to cut prices and a generous payment plan for consumers, the government hopes to offer desktops for around 1,400 reais ($509) or less. The machines will be comparable to those costing almost twice that outside the program.

MY POST:
If your goal is to prevent monopoly thats all well and good but dont try to further justify it by throwing in things which are just plain hot air...

Back to your nonsense
Smartass, what the fuck is a comment about Brazil's "poor" doing in reply to an article about Brazil and OSS? Get out of your mom's basement - it's worse than our sewers.

If by smartass you meant I read the friggen article before posting a comment then yes, I guess I am (you should also aspire to be one).. I think its fine brazil wants to keep competition in its market, its also fine that they want to give people a PC. But giveing a poor person a PC with OSS is not going to help them as individules anymore than giving them a PC with windows...

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[IANAAC]

You can already get a dell for R$1499 which is very price competative with what your selling people

I doubt that the poor people that would benefit from this would be able to qualify for monthy payments, such as the governemt will offer.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[Ironsides]

And most Linux distros come with a variety of tools, like office suites, graphic editors, games, etc.

Can you tell me why anyone just getting a computer for the first time would want to or know how to use a Graphics Editor or offic suite? Some form of text editor program, e-mail and browser is all that is needed. If all they do is play games and surf for porn this whole thing will have failed.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[N3WBI3]

I think you would be suprised how far dell would bend (both in price, and in credit approval) if the government promised to back any defaults. The government would save money (not everyone would default)...

I am not saying I think this is a bad idea, what I am saying is that the 'its for the poor' angle is crap. The government has a thing against MS (hey dont we all) and are pushing a non MS OS because they think that its an evil American corporation..

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

Students would need it for school work. Adults may need it to do their own work. There are plenty of reasons.

If all they end up doing is playing games and surfing for porn, they'd have saved some cash in doing so.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

How many people are going to find office suites and other products they need online? And how are they supposed to get all of it on 15 hours of dialup a month?

There are a lot of benefits to this scheme.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[theolein]

In case you didn't notice, the article also talks about HOW people will pay for this, i.e. FTA: "Buyers will be able to pay in 24 installments of 50 to 60 reais, or about $18 to $21.80 a month,"

Do you think Dell is willing to accept payments over 24 months? I seriously doubt it.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[N3WBI3]

Um, send them CD's or require the OEM to put them on...

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[N3WBI3]

ummm

Umm dell does offer financing...

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

Ask Dell to put OOo and Firefox and the like on a Windows PC? There is no way they'd risk angering Redmond like that.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[N3WBI3]

Maybe, but if Dell got the deal to use windows in Brazil for this program MS might be more forgiving..

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[northcat]

And what's your point? You're not saying anything new, other than what you said in your prevous post. What, trying to whore someone else's karma away?

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[N3WBI3]

Hmm I say something and somebody attack me for saying something compleatly different... who is it whoring to point out he never RTFA or my post..

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[theolein]

With 2% interest, and a lot of attached conditions, and it's not Dell in any case. It's ABN-AMRO bank in Brazil (Dutch bank), which, in effect, is like applying for a small credit from a bank, since it has the same stipulations and limitations.

So, technically, you're wrong. Dell does not offer financing. It merely has an arrangment with a bank to deal with small credit applications.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[N3WBI3]

wow, you really just dont want to be wrong do you? I can go to dells site and buy something on a financing plan. Because dell outsources that part of their business to a bank does that mean I cant buy a dell and pay over 24 months?

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[mingot]

Dell already puts a WordPerfect suite on most new machines, so I doubt they would have any trouble bundling a different one.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[IANAAC]

... does that mean I cant buy a dell and pay over 24 months?

If you fall in the income bracket they're talking about, probably not. Doesn't matter if the bank is Brazilian, Dutch or Venutian.

Throughout this thread you've been operating under the assumption that the target market for these machines has the same buying power you do. They don't.

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[N3WBI3]

Youre saying the government of brazil does not have the same buying power I do? Afterall if this is going to be done for the people why not just have the govt guarentee payment..

Re:Will this really help the poor in Brazil?

[davekebab]

The price for the dell wouldn't include a monitor adding another 400 reais

The credit is the key thing here because the final price includes the interest charges. A company like Dell charges around 3% per month and the government probably 1.5%.

In all -- there is no comparison with Dell, it exists almost in another world

DK

Yet...

[inertia187]

We're not going to spend taxpayers' money on a program so that Microsoft can further consolidate its monopoly..."

Yet they use Word grammar check.

Re:Yet...

[kyojin the clown]

Possibly I'm being a complete retard (it happens), but I fail to see what is grammatically wrong with the sentence you quoted. Maybe it's staring me in the face, but I can't see it. Help me out here?

Re:Yet...

[jrutley]

This is marked "funny," but I don't see the error. Does that mean Word's grammar checker is better than you think? ;)

Test your apostrophe usage here.

Choice

[TeeJayHoward]

"...instead of giving consumers the option of paying..."

While I applaud their efforts, I also question their motives. Less options != good thing.

Re:Is it me

[Ruud Althuizen]

They shouldn't have mooned us first by setting high prices and many {bugs,features}.

New Slogan for Brazil and Linux

[sgant]

Just thought it up, though others may have done the same...sort of a take on Apple's "1984" commercial:

In 2005 the country of Brazil will start using Linux as it's prefered operating system and you'll see why Brazil won't be like Brazil

Who's minding the coop???

[advocate_one]

If, as everyone expects, Ballmer's off to South Korea to get them back in line, then who's off to Brasil to sort them out??? at this rate, the Microsoft Anti-OSS Emergency Response team will be maxed out rushing all over the place... no one will be left minding the shop back in the good ole US of A... time for you lot to get your congress critters off their backsides and supporting the OSS camp...

Re:Who's minding the coop???

[advocate_one]

time for you lot to get your congress critters off their backsides and supporting the OSS camp...

If they need any encouragement, it'll help to tell them that they'll be keeping money and jobs in their own states... "local jobs for local people"... not lining Bill Gates' coffers...

Let Brazil join the EU!

[HogynCymraeg]

And our problems will be solved! :D

Re:Let Brazil join the EU!

[mattyrobinson69]

That would be bad - how the hell are england supposed to win the european cup with brazil in the UEFA group?

seriously though: YEAH!!!

Re:Let Brazil join the EU!

[gowen]

how the hell are england supposed to win the european cup with brazil in the UEFA group?

Seriously though, how the hell are England supposed to win the European Cup[0] with France, Italy, Germany, Holland, Portugal, Spain and ... erm ... Greece, in the UEFA group?

[0] By which I assume you mean the European Championship, since the European Cup was a club competition, now swallowed by the Champions[1] League(tm)
[1] Not necessarily champions. Void where prohibited.

Re:Let Brazil join the EU!

[johannesg]

When you say "our", who exactly are you refering to: Brazil, the EU, or Microsoft? ;-)

Re:Let Brazil join the EU!

[gowen]

That was a far more reasonable and intelligent response than my cheap joke deserved.

You are hereby banninated.

Re:Let Brazil join the EU!

[HogynCymraeg]

Who cares?!?! They can't even win the Six Nations! Grandslam! Grandslam! :D

Re:Bankrupt?...

[bostonsoxfan]

I don't know about Brazil but the United States has been in the red for a very long time. The current national debt is something like 7.79 Trillion

Debt clock

You know how this ends, right?

[russotto]

Eventually, just to preserve their monopoly, Microsoft makes an offer they can't refuse -- computers with Windows for less than the price of the computers alone.

Re:You know how this ends, right?

[carabela]

Wait a minute, isn't this the tactics used for the xbox?

...but hey, you still end up dealing with MS support issues, security flaws and sw patent issues all over again. I, for one, want to be free to refuse offers, without having share my bed with a piece of a dead horse.

Re:You know how this ends, right?

[St. Arbirix]

7 million * $100 hit per computer = $700 million

That's pennies to Microsoft. If only giving away Windows actually cost them anything other than perceived losses.

Re:You know how this ends, right?

[marcosdumay]

And the government is oblied to refuse that because it is abuse of economical power. Also, it may charge the company, but that part is harder.

Re:Bankrupt?...

[Wudbaer]

They are also not too well financially (which country is these days ?), but I think you are thinking of Argentina.

MS's biggest weakness...

[Yaa 101]

You see that more and more where MS has to compete with it's competitors it looks that all the free software available for Linux makes the difference.

There is a large difference between a low cost crippled windows version without any significant software package and a free fully complete OS with all the packages available for free...

Guess what most people are going to pick when they are informed correctly?

Re:MS's biggest weakness...

[DogDude]

Guess what most people are going to pick when they are informed correctly?

I don't have to guess. Most people pick Microsoft.

Re:MS's biggest weakness...

[Yaa 101]

because they arent informed correctly...

Re:MS's biggest weakness...

[DogDude]

I don't know a single informed IT person that doesn't use something Windows as their primary OS. Of course, I probably only know 30-40 "informed" people. No, wait, one person I know uses a Mac. So, then you're saying, what, less than 1% of the US population is "informed"? I doubt that.

Open Source?

[latroM]

The head line says that it is about free software, not open source. The difference is remarkable.

Do you mean, Argentina?

[Danuvius]

A wild guess:
Are you thinking of Argentina?

If I knew Portuguese...

[Hognoxious]

If I knew Portuguese, I would wish them 'Buenos fortunas', or whatever good luck is.

The government shouldn't be the one who decides what hardware and software will go into these computers," said Júlio Semeghini, a member of Congress from the opposition Social Democratic Party.

Shouldn't it? The words "piper" "call" and "tune" spring to mind. Anybody know the Portuguese for "Micro$oft Shill"?

Re:If I knew Portuguese...

[Yaa 101]

No need, they know the english language, at least the ones dealing with IT.

Just mail them... :-)

Re:If I knew Portuguese...

[bradasch]

He went on saying it was "undemocratic" also, but in the sense of "it's a good idea and it was not mine" ;-).

"Good luck" in portuguese would be "Boa Sorte".

Re:If I knew Portuguese...

[holiggan]

A bit OT, but in Portuguese, it's "Boa sorte"... "buena fortuna" is spanish... The main countries that speak portuguese are Brasil (with a version of their own), Portugal (the tiny country next to Spain, the one with the Azores islands and all) and some african countries, mostly ex-portuguese-colonies.

Re:If I knew Portuguese...

[iksrazal_br]

"Micro$oft Shill" in português? I would say "Puxo-saco" - which is roughly brown-noser ... you get the idea.

Re:If I knew Portuguese...

[iksrazal_br]

I'm in brazil and although google spelling verified the last spelling, my native português speaking buddy says its 'puxa saco' - and indeed that's a correct translation of "Micro$oft Shill" .

Re:If I knew Portuguese...

[marcosdumay]

If I knew Portuguese, I would wish them 'Buenos fortunas', or whatever good luck is.
It is "boa sorte", but on this subject we don't need that anymore.

If this program happens, it will happen with free software. The governemnt is very pro free software, the oposition (the only oposition capable of winning an election now) is also pro free software.

Also, our techinical base is pro free software since our universities switched to it when they realized they become "adiccted" to Windows and Microsoft tried to charge them very hard.

Most of Brazilian population still use Windows because it is pirated, and, so, very cheap. If they had to pay, they would switch. Still lot's of non technical people I have talked on the last ears where considering switch anyway.

Tanks anyway for whising, but we need luck for a lot of reasons, to get the chance of adopting free software, not.

Re:If I knew Portuguese...

[mojo333]

Do they still speak it in some parts of India?

Yes, they do (in Goa).

Re:If I knew Portuguese...

[Hognoxious]

I don't know. Do Brazilians think that anyone who can't speak Portuguese is American?

What a load...

[Anonymous Coward]

"That the masses cannot be allowed to make their own choices, because their choices might include Microsoft?"

The *government* are not the masses. They choose to opt for a cheaper solution, whats the problem?

Its pure capitalism, Microsoft are free to offer Windows free and open source to Brazil, if Microsoft can't compete why should Brazil make a special exception for them?

Re:What a load...

[IANAAC]

Oh good grief...

Cut the drama. The government is not FORCING anyone to buy their computers. People can still buy Dell's equally priced PCs with MS on it if they wish.

Re:What a load...

[DrSkwid]

This is about the government making a decision for people it has no place making..

it is *exactly* these sort of decisions that govt. is for

Re:What a load...

[Anonymous Coward]

We paid 60% of import taxes here. A R$ 1400,00 PC is really, *REALLY* cheap.

Re:What a load...

[N3WBI3]

Really? the govt exist to endorse one form of software over another? why not we want cradle to grave control why not tell me which PC is good for my country while we are at it..

Re:What a load...

[the_bard17]

Imagine the howls of rage from the tinfoil hatted, middle-class, Slashdot Geek if the government were to back with all it's power a standard Linux distro for everyone.

Howl with rage? I think not. I might celebrate, then I might cringe with the bewildering cries of "What's Linux?"

Now if they forced me to use a specific distro... then I might "howl with rage."

Re:What a load...

[N3WBI3]

Thank you AC, this is the first post that is not a *MS suck* and thats why we should do it... I was unaware of that. I will ask given that the govt is giving tax breaks to companies could it not also lower the import duty on a US computer from Dell?

Re:What a load...

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me a new dell configured with monitor, keyboard, mouse, OS, and complete productivity suite (sorry Works doesn't cut it) that can be had for $500 here in the US, let alone after it's shipped to South America.

Sure, they can load Windows on their machiens if they want. Windows has the market, though. If you read what's being said they're saying that they're trying to provide software that is Free (no dependency on others) and create a market with competition. Plus, if the government is using Free software then why not encourage the people to? Ubiquity is the main reason why people prefer Windows anyhow.

Remember that if they use only free versions of Free software then they avoid the "Microsoft Tax" scenerio. People are more able to choose whether to keep the software that came for free or replace it with other software (free or not).

Re:What a load...

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? the govt exist to endorse one form of software over another? why not we want cradle to grave control why not tell me which PC is good for my country while we are at it..

One of the jobs most people gladly give to the government is to keep the criminal elements in check. Microsoft has been found guilty of abusing its monopoly power where ever it has been tried for this, so it is only fair that the Brazilian government will try to stop this from happening.

Oh, unless you live in Brazil, stop whining. Each country is supposed to manage the affairs of its people the best they can. That can well be different in different countries. It is called freedom!

Re:What a load...

[N3WBI3]

Wow I can believe I am here defending dell and windows but when things like this are said

Show me a new dell configured with monitor, keyboard, mouse, OS, and complete productivity suite (sorry Works doesn't cut it) that can be had for $500 here in the US, let alone after it's shipped to South America.

Here in the US... Prices in Brazil are higher because of Brazil's import duties on US computers..

If you read what's being said they're saying that they're trying to provide software that is Free (no dependency on others) and create a market with competition.

Yes and with that part I cant fault them all that much, but when they wrap this around 'it for the poor' I have to laugh.. This is for Brazillian PC manufactures..

Re:What a load...

[CokeBear]

Actually, it will cost less, because of the economies of scale involved with buying a million of each component at a time. (Same reason Canadian drugs are so much cheaper: the government negotiates volume prices with the drug companies.)

Re:What a load...

[hatredman]

Without the monitor, keyboard and mouse.

Re:What a load...

[4of12]

Really? the govt exist to endorse one form of software over another?

Any market which naturally degenerates into a monopoly is a good place for the government to regulate or become a service provider or to set standards. Computer operating systems have become an "essential facility", just as electric lines running a certain voltage, roads, or last mile phone line service to homes.

Brazil's citizens are still free to go out and purchase a copy of Microsoft Windows and install it on their PCs if they find the value proposition attractive over the FOSS that "comes with their PC".

Personally, I don't find the supposed heavy hand of Brazilian government any more distasteful than the exercise of Microsoft's excessive marketplace power in other countries over the past couple of decades. The United States Department of Justice showed it could not stand up to MS and the EU is taking its time to do so. Bravo to Brazil for having the balls to do it!

Re:What a load...

[davekebab]

Err you haven't been to Brazil then....

Dell are the deluxe PCs here and cost *at least* twice as much as a regular box made by the hundreds of small but reputable companies on every other street corner.

You also have to remember that most of these will be shipped with 'generic' windows i.e. pir8

Any Windows OS/server/application/suite costs 3 bucks per cd

Maybe that adds another dimension, friend

DK

Re:What a load...

[St. Arbirix]

Really? the govt exist to endorse one form of software over another? why not we want cradle to grave control why not tell me which PC is good for my country while we are at it..

If you think about the economics of it, open source *is* good for their country. Think about a government providing water for its people. They could buy and ship bottled water from some source in the Alps, or they could make the decent quality free stuff already streaming around their country potable for the masses.

Re:What a load...

[N3WBI3]

Banning chicken wings is probabbly good for this country, and other fatty foods...

Re:What a load...

[xtracto]

Now if they forced me to use a specific distro... then I might "howl with rage."

Thinking about using a specific distro, I am thinking in Mandrake-Caldera here. And here is where I think Mandrake really made a good move buying Caldera.

As for the government decision in spending tax payers $$ in FOSS instead of a proprietary system I think is the most sensate thing a government can do.

You see, in some undeveloped countries as Mexico (mine), Brazil, there exists corruption and often people from some offices buy Adobe Acrobat (no, not the reader) or other expensive-like-software just to spend the money the government gives (so the government give them more money the next cycle). They usually use it only to create PDFs... from .DOC or things like that (yes, i saw it myself at least in Mexico).

So, at least as a tax payer, I will know that the money (at least some part of it) I am paying is ending in something specific (those Government-funded-OSS) and that, at the end, they are mine, I can use it I can destroy it I can install, uninstall and do whatever the hell I want with them.

I think that was one of the motives for the government to use OSS, as some politic (don't know who) from Brazil told to someone from Microsoft, it is not possible for the government to be "transparent" and use some proprietary software (at the end, it IS information no?).

Well... I think more countries should learn from the example. For me it is a really good move, not caring about the OSS advocacy, but about the government/political side of the coin.

Re:What a load...

[GreatBunzinni]

This is about the government making a decision for people it has no place making..

Well... It has a place for making that decision. First of all, it isn't forcing linux down it's citizens' throats. It is simply selecting a certain product to be available under subsidy, which happens to be a better solution than the usually adopted.

And lets not forget that, because of Brazil's push on open source, it is the smart thing to do. All in all, it is investing in its program to develop its hi-tech sector and in the process supporting the country's hi-tech infrastructure and keeping the spending to a minimum.

Re:What a load...

[xtracto]

lol
Now, I should be smoking something
I meant Conectiva... no Caldera =oD sorry...
it is my fault i guess the SpellBound checker does not check for stupidity yet...

Re:What a load...

[cocoamix]

"That the masses cannot be allowed to make their own choices, because their choices might include Microsoft?"

South Americans are used to having choices taken away from them, whether it be from Microsoft, or the US Government:

"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."
-Henry Kissinger

Re:What a load...

[St. Arbirix]

The federal government of the United States of America does not see an economic gain in making budget computers available for the middle class of this country. The only thing (to my knownledge) that the US government will make available is cheese.

The Republica Federativa do Brasil for some strange reason doesn't find it necessary to the structure of its country to provide cheese to its people. It does however perceive economic benefits for the country at large by administering the creation and distribution of budget computers at minimal cost and harm to its represented peoples.

There's nothing being banned here. It's true that this gives Linux major acceptance headway in that country. But it's also true that buying a foreign product in such volumes by default will send billions of dollars out of the country. The perceived benefits of using the Microsoft operating system just arent great enough to offset this fear. You can still buy Windows if you want, but that's a financial risk the government is relegating to each person.

Re:What a load...

[DrSkwid]

I'd be all for a total ban on animal based foods. It is a filthy business and one not fit for civilized people.

Re:What a load...

[leecn]

quit whinging. At least the people of Brazil elected the government in Brazil... unlike 2000 in your country.

Re:What a load...

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't eaten or drunk* an animal-derived food in the last 4 months, apart for the unfortunately rather ubiquitous lactose (e.g. in salad dressings) and honey (peanut bars etc.). I also gave up coffee and black tea, although I consume other sources of caffeine, and I now prefer whole-grain cereals over white flour products.

*) This is important to mention since I used to be a junkie for cow's milk.

Health results:
* Lost 12 pounds of fat (was slightly overweight, now lean).
* Lost my problems with bone pain under heavy phys. stress.
* Lost my problems with electrolyte imbalance (insuff. potassium and magnesium).
* Lost my depression.
* Didn't lose a grain of muscle.
* Gained physical endurance several times over.
* Gained (and this baffled me most as an amateur Karateka) fast strength.
* Gained creativity and mental clarity.

Animal food apologists will tell you you need meat, milk and eggs especially for protein, iron, zinc, vitamins A, D and B-vitamins. ALL LIES!

All vital nutrients can be obtained from plant foods, and at better ratios (higher carbohydrate to protein and fat, higher unsaturated fatty acids to saturated ones, higher magnesium to calcium, higher potassium to sodium, higher branched-chain amino acids than other amino acids, higher basic amino acids to acidic ones ...). B12 is somewhat scarce in plant foods under conditions of modern hygiene, and nowadays mercury, caffeine and alcohol increase our requirements, but it's easily supplemented from fortified soy milk, breakfast cereals, multi-vitamin candies etc.

After all, omnivores eat these same fortified foods all the time, and drink vitamin-enriched (vits A and D) cow's milk all the time, so why shouldn't I?

Bottom Line: Judging from my own experience, at least people with blood group A should never eat any kind of animal food whatsoever. But don't spread the word - some 37% of the population are BG A and the meat boards and dairy councils all around the world wouldn't be too fond of a 37% drop in revenue. So let's just continue to spread lies about the supposed health value of dead animals, udder juice and these white round things that come out of a chicken's asshole, ok?

PS: Sorry for preaching to the choir.

Re:What a load...

[rkeene517]

The reason you are healthier is because you are eating a better diet than before. If that better diet happens to be a no-animal diet then you are confusing cause and effect. I went from vegetarian to meta-atarian and felt much better and healither. Most people, when they discover any 'health food' diet, feel much better simply because the diet is better than the junk they were eating. At this time I believe that a hunter-gather paleo-diet (PaleoDiet) is the best suited for Homo Sapiens. I very much agree that 'Milk is an Unnatural'®.

Brazil the Frontrunner

[[cx]]

If Microsoft was a Brazillian company I think that quote would have been from the US Government, but they can't make quotes like that or they will lose their MS deals.

Brazil should go with Linux and used the save money on depth charges to get rid of the Great White Sharks that are hunting in packs and actin a fool.

Or better yet, they can use the money to restore the rainforest, or to buy back land from McDonalds farms so they can stop the slash and burn technique.

[cx]

Paranoia

[Necrotica]

Another take on this:

Here we have a government supplying software - that they are freely allowed to modify - to a demographic of people who are more than likely not educated enough to read the source code to see if their personal freedoms (ie: privacy) are being infringed upon.

Re:Paranoia

[DogDude]

Here we have a government supplying software - that they are freely allowed to modify - to a demographic of people who are more than likely not educated enough to read the source code to see if their personal freedoms (ie: privacy) are being infringed upon.

You're incredibly naive if you think that the poor of Brazil give one shit about privacy. Most of them are probably more interested in clean water and basic immunizations.

Re:Paranoia

[Necrotica]

That's entirely my point, DogDude. Since the people don't care and perhaps don't know better they become pawns.

Re:Paranoia

[Taruhn]

This is not an isolated action. At the same time, the Culture Office is providing "Pontos de Cultura" (culture points) with PCs and training for free software/music/video production.

Six months ago the government oppend a funding line for development of free software. It is not clear how companies will benefit from this, and the government itself is just starting the "migration", but at least it seens to be an broarder vision on this issue.

Contrast...

[schon]

And if it were MS software...

"Here we have a government supplying software to a demographic of people who are not able to read the source code to see if their personal freedoms (ie: privacy) are being infringed upon."

With FOSS, if they *become* educated, they can read the source code - or they can ask someone who *is* educated to read the source code for them.

With closed source, they have no such option.

Re:Contrast...

[Ungrounded Lightning]

With FOSS, if they *become* educated, they can read the source code - or they can ask someone who *is* educated to read the source code for them.

Hear hear!

While I was an undergraduate, even though I was taking classes, I got an in-depth education in software mainly by reading code:
- partly from listings,
- partly from disassembling a whole operating system with a little help from a listing of its predecessor when it was much smaller,
- greatly aided by a scheduling system that left me with time on my hands waiting for my turn at the machine, or the machine on my hands waiting for output to be printed and input to be punched,
and then making upgrades to it.

(One of the first upgrades was to build, first an editor, then a full-blown emulation of the Dartmouth Basic run-what-you're-edtiing environment (but using Fortran on a tape-based machine). Then I didn't have to wait for listing-to-card, card-to-tape, and tape-to-print services and could do a debugging turn in minutes rather than one or two per day. That drastically accellerated the learning process.)

This was in the days when OSes were so small that you COULD disassemble them single-handedly in a few months of part-time effort. But having a home machine, complete source code to a very advanced system, and powerful software development tools in your hands 24/7 (maybe divided by number of family members) should make a similar learning experience easier, faster, and deeper for those people of Brazil who wish to try it.

I expect an ongoing avalanche of new stuff from them, starting within a couple years after this program gets off the ground.

Re:Contrast...

[CDarklock]

> With closed source, they have no such option.

However, with only *slightly* more education, a disassembly can be examined. If you're smart enough to read a pile of undocumented and largely uncommented C code from multiple unknown authors, you should be smart enough to learn assembly language. It's no more difficult or inconvenient for a developer to learn assembly language than it is for a non-developer to learn C, so if this is too much for you, maybe C is too much for them.

Not to in any way deny the usefulness of open source, but honestly... an option the vast majority of people will never exercise is not really a legitimate option. Just as nobody is going to run out and learn assembly language so they can trace through the Windows kernel, nobody in Brazil is going to go learn C so they can check their source for privacy violations.

Besides, what idiot leaves the offending code in the source? Distribute the originals. That way, you get everybody who doesn't recompile their whole system, whether they read the source or not. Of course, a DISASSEMBLY would still reveal the problem... ;)

Re:Contrast...

[schon]

If you're smart enough to read a pile of undocumented and largely uncommented C code from multiple unknown authors, you should be smart enough to learn assembly language.

You're making the assumption that all FOSS is completely undocumented and uncommented. Not exactly the case.

And you're missing the point that if you *don't* understand part of it, you can email the authors and *ask* them. Try doing that with a disassembly of proprietary source code.

nobody in Brazil is going to go learn C so they can check their source for privacy violations

How do you know that? There are, right now, thousands (if not millions) of people in Brazil who can't afford a computer, and many of them *just might want to learn something*.

You could apply the same "nobody" check to any FOSS project. "Nobody would ever give their software away."

You sound like an MS apologist - you just don't get Open Source.

Re:Contrast...

[Narchie Troll]

Of course, most EULAs explicitly forbid disassembly.

Re:Contrast...

[CDarklock]

> You're making the assumption
> that all FOSS is completely
> undocumented and uncommented

No, I'm making the *observation* that *most* FOSS is *effectively* undocumented and *largely* uncommented, which is somewhat different.

Note that I'm specifically talking about CODE documentation; most FOSS has reasonable documentation on how to use it (for sufficiently limited values of "reasonable"), but little to no documentation on how to understand its source implementation.

> How do you know that?

Well, I waved a dead chicken over the map of Brazil, and it said "B'KAWK, nobody in Brazil is going to learn C so they can check their source for privacy violations". How dare you argue with the dead chicken? The dead chicken knows all.

Seriously, the number of people who will do this is statistically insignificant, so there may as well not be any.

> You sound like an MS apologist

That's Microsoft *Partner*, and don't you forget it.

> you just don't get Open Source.

Sure I do. In fact, I "get" that open source is purely about the redistribution freedom, because that's the only one you don't already have. You want the right to sell someone else's work for your own personal profit and not pay the original author anything.

Because, EULA or no EULA, you have a protected right to use and examine and modify the software you buy... as long as you don't circumvent its revenue generation mechanisms. And if you're fixing bugs or improving the software, you don't need to do that. You're even allowed to redistribute your modifications with instructions on how to apply them, again as long as you don't circumvent revenue generation mechanisms.

So the only thing you get from open source is a way to sell something that isn't yours. While I agree that this is a nice thing to have when people want to give it to you, I find it extremely rude to complain when people don't want you to have it.

I'm already skating mighty close to the edge of the topic, so I won't go into how open source development actively encourages bad software... but it does. This will become more evident as time goes on.

What if.....

[doctorjay]

MS offered single PC licences for 10 bucks apiece. I think they'd see profits jump through the roof.

Re:What if.....

[fams]

Microsoft sells an amount of bits. PC Conectado is a chance to consolidate a monopoly just it. Millions of people that never would buy a windows copy could be brain washed to use M$ Products.
It's a Political decision. Even in US the government can't stop MS. Why here, in Brazil, we will help then?

Re:What if.....

[xgamer04]

Don't they already do this for schools in the US? I never thought it was about profit, but about mindshare.

Re:the apple loan

[doctorjay]

id check your credit... usually paying in full builds credit. Its impossible for you to get bad credit because you pay your bills on time. Maybe its because you just recently got a credit card or, only have a debit card.

Payola governments with short term goals.

[Anonymous Coward]

If the IBM Government invests $70 million in Microsoft licences for imediate problems then they have nothings but a renewable license to show for it.
If the IBM Government invests $100 million in OSS than the next time they need something doing, OSS with be $100 million better. Infact when Brazil next want something why should they pay for Microsoft cut down Windows when the IBM have just put $100 million into free software.

Investment in OSS is investment in your own country, not in Ireland or the US. Investment in OSS is incremental so that anyone can take out regardless of how much they put in, the money doesn't go on the next XBox advertising campain.

Getting the job done is one thing, but Governments are about making sure the job gets done in the feture and around the world just as much as they are about Today and in you back yard.

Re:Bankrupt?...

[Himring]

Ah yes Argentina -- same thing :P I got an offtopic! Woohoo!...

Re:A resounding Yes!

[N3WBI3]

(1) MySQL is not an enterprise level database, its nice and I use it for some small thigs around the office but I would never run an ENT app on it.

now that we have that out of the way lets look at your point. MySQL, GIMP, OO, FireFox, Apache, all *RUN IN THE WINDOWS ENVIRONMENT*

I think the citizens of Brazil are getting a great deal more for their money than the Micro$shaft whore called Dell!

All the more reason not to take your post seriously... I have several servers here from dell that came with RHEL on them. If you really think some kid is going to be better off in a ghetto in brazil because he is using Linux and not windows you are too fargone to reason with...

Brazil: Just Do It!

[ahodgkinson]

The Brazilian government may actually have the staying power to just say no to Microsoft.

Consider what Brazil has done in the recent past:

• Photo-ed and fingerprinted incoming American citizens in response to America's change in visa policies.
• Charged fairly hefty import tariffs for PCs to promote local industry.
• Promotes Brazilian music, and indirectly, interest in Brazilian culture and tourism, via the encouragement of free music downloads [I read this in a magazine, but can't anything online confirming it. Can anyone help?]

I'm not saying that these are necessarily all good things. I just want to say that Brazil tends to do it their way, in spite external pressure.

It's nice to see a country actually withstand to pressure from the multi-nationals and try to implement a policy for the benefit of all its citizens, rather than the usual vested interests. Let's just hope it doesn't become corrupted.

Also, recognize that Brazil is interested making their population computer literate. This includes the longer term goal of developing a viable computer software industry. Open Source is an inexpensive and suitable platform for giving everyone a software development environment. Why only a few may actually use it, I'm sure it will create a lot of talented programmers.

Re:Brazil: Just Do It!

[realkiwi]

Oh sure!

France said no and you stopped eating French fries and drinking red wine?

Can other countries in the world do it their way without risking an army of occupation (think Iran)?

Re:Brazil: Just Do It!

[wronski]

Consider what Brazil has done in the recent past:

• Photo-ed and fingerprinted incoming American citizens in response to America's change in visa policies.
• Charged fairly hefty import tariffs for PCs to promote local industry.
• Promotes Brazilian music, and indirectly, interest in Brazilian culture and tourism, via the encouragement of free music downloads [I read this in a magazine, but can't anything online confirming it. Can anyone help?]

The fingerprint thing was reciprocation for US visa policies. I think what annoys people the most is not the number of hoops they have to jump to get a visa, but that insufferable attitude US consular authorities have of treating visa-seekers as supplicants.

The former policy of outlawing the import of computer equipment if a made-in-Brazil one existed (Reserva de Mercado) is widely regarded as a massive failure. Today tariffs are high, but not as ridiculous as in the past. All components are still manufactured in Tawain, and the higher cost trickles down to the whole productive chain making the economy less competitve as a whole.

There has been an upsurge in interest in Brazilian culture in general. Some of it is due to the goverment, but most is not. The culture minister (Gilberto Gil, a major artist) recorded a song for Wired under a GPL licence, but this is was a one-off. He generaly supports music with less restriction on distribution, but AFAIK does not support wholesale free downloads. Here is a (entirely legal) bittorrent link to the song (along with the rest of the CD)

(was commodities)

[ericof]

Just to mention, there are a lot of us, brazilians, who could not see a life with less than 30 -- or more -- hours online dayly ;-)

Brazil has a huge "cliff" between social classes so as I take it for granted to have broadband at home, at my office and wifi connections at coffee shops, there are people who never touched a computer -- other than atm's or voring machines...

Re:(was commodities)

[AvantLegion]

Brazil has a huge "cliff" between social classes [...] there are a lot of us, brazilians, who could not see a life with less than 30 -- or more -- hours online dayly ;-)

30 hours of daily online use in only 24 hour days? Boy, the upper caste in Brazil really DOES have it good!

Re:(was commodities)

[ericof]

Caste? Hmm... I like the sound of that :-)

Only 24 hours, but what's the point in having broadband at home if you could not leave your computer doing some torrent stuff ;-)

You left one off.

[khasim]

The government should also be focused on developing their infrastructure and that includes getting their citizens into the software industry as coders rather than point-and-click morons.

It will be far better for them, as a country, if their people start learning how to fix bugs / add functionality in Linux (kernel/desktops/apps) than if they just build database apps in Access.

Ideally, it will only take a few years for them to bring a bunch of people up to speed and then those people can start expanding/enhancing Linux to meet whatever needs the government/people have.

Rather than waiting until the next release of Windows which will require even faster processors / more RAM / better video.

Lucky them

[ColonelClaw]

all i can say is it's about time the brazilian poor were given a break. i used to live there and every day i'd see them being harrassed, shot at, caught in drug war crossfire, ignored, dying of treatable diseases and generally treated like dirt. being made to use microsoft's absolute bucket of shite excuse for an operating system would have been the final insult.

Uh oh

[bradasch]

Be careful!

You will unleash a hoard of anti-Lula people criticizing your comment about "working brain".

No matter how good a government is, some people choose to be blind and refuse to acnowledge it.

And, yes, we have the hottest women in the world, thank you!

Why is OSS equated with Leftist ideology?

[theolein]

FTA: But the preference for open-source software has been controversial, with critics inside and outside the government saying Mr. da Silva's administration is letting leftist ideology trump the laws of supply and demand.

I really fucking hate this. This is the typical newspeak propaganda used by companies terrified of losing their stranglehold on consumers by loudly bleating "Communist" into the air in order to get support from the more paranoid fringes of society, such as politicians who get kick backs from such companies.

What Supply and Demand is this guy talking about? Does he mean to infer that all those people should remain uneducated because they can't afford to buy some bullshit company's overpriced product? Tell that to the people yourself, you cunt. Also tell them that buying Microsoft's Windows will make them even poorer than they currently are, since the only way Microsoft is ever going to sell Windows at a low price is to sell some ultra crippled piece of shit such as the Starter Edition which no one wants.

Re:Why is OSS equated with Leftist ideology?

[gowen]

I really fucking hate this. This is the typical newspeak propaganda used by companies terrified of losing their stranglehold on consumers by loudly bleating "Communist" into the air in order to get support from the more paranoid fringes of society, such as politicians who get kick backs from such companies.

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint.
When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."
-- Dom Helder Camara

Re:Why is OSS equated with Leftist ideology?

[WillAffleck]

I really fucking hate this. This is the typical newspeak propaganda used by companies terrified of losing their stranglehold on consumers by loudly bleating "Communist" into the air in order to get support from the more paranoid fringes of society, such as politicians who get kick backs from such companies.

You bring up a good point. Open Source is really Capitalism at its ideal - closed monopolies are actually anti-Capitalist by definition, since they discourage (actively) competition, depend upon all players in the market not having equal and free access to information, and don't price to equilibrium but distort the market.

Sigh. Why do people believe the lies of the red commie Bushies so much ...

Re:Why is OSS equated with Leftist ideology?

[hyfe]

This is the typical newspeak propaganda

Why is this newspeak?

Every word he says rings true in my ears.

The basic premise of supply and demand is, and has always been, been one of distribution to those who can afford. Which by inference, means not distributing to those who cannot. It's a fairly harsh principle. If you can't handle it, good for you, but it's nothing new, and certainly doesn't make this newspeak

Furthermore, considering his views on 'laws of supply and demand'; Giving away something freely certainly ruins the balance between supply and demand! Just like public roads hampers the balance between cars and trains, like the police hampers the balance between security firms and public. By definition, anything the government does hampers the laws of supply and demand. Some we all accept as good things, others we disagree about.

Lastly, the notion of giving away something for 'free', like healthcare, broadband, access to public road and this case operating systems is quite more common among the more leftist of us, than the right-wing people. In my book, the comment about this being leftist is certainly correct.

Neither Communist nor leftist are swear-words you know :) They have pretty distinct meanings.

Re:Why is OSS equated with Leftist ideology?

[TuringTest]

You got it wrong. Capitalism is based on private property. The problem is that when you try to turn information into a capitalist product, you have a paradox: information should be free to have a free market (one with perfect competition), but then how can you make a profit by selling it?

But property requires government protection. In information market, private property (be it over closed source software, music or books) does distort the market. So free content != capitalism.

Re:Why is OSS equated with Leftist ideology?

[marcosdumay]

That is because open software supporters on Brazil often have leftist ideology. Open source use is very strong at public universities here, where letfist ideology is stronger. But I agree that the claim about supply and demand is completely senseless (if the governement distributed the most used system, it would have to give pirated copies of Windows).

It's not only about cheap software

[bradasch]

The government initiative should also be an incentive to private sectors to move out from non-free foreign software.

I read somewhere (don't remember where, don't have a link now, sorry) that it was expected that by 2008, Brazil (including public and private sectors) would be expending more money importing software than importing oil.

So, economically, it's a sane, smart move, if it's going to keep the money in Brazil.

Help?

[cocoamix]

Still, Microsoft has not given up just yet. The company, which declined to make an executive available for an interview, said in a statement that it was still "working with the PC Conectado project to see if there's a way Microsoft can help... "...to further consolidate our Monopoly. Oops? DId I say that out loud? You can edit that, right. Thanks."

Bleh

[delmoi]

I know I learned a lot more about computers from having my own then I did at school.

The only useful things I ever learned on a computer at school: how to type, and how to use Photoshop.

The attempts to 'integrate' computers into the course work were also a huge waste, although teachers using a computer to show slides was helpful. Having the computers there for typing papers if the need arose was nice, and trying to hack the weak "security" was also fun.

The load is your own.

[theolein]

Jesus, just read the article for once. You already posted this exact same sentence further up as if you found something you could complain about and ran with it without actually thinking.

Again, I repeat FTA: "Buyers will be able to pay in 24 installments of 50 to 60 reais, or about $18 to $21.80 a month,"

Does Dell allow you to pay over 24 months? No, I didn't think so. Is the Brazillian government forcing people to buy these cheap computers? No, you can buy HPs, Dells and even Macs in Brazil, and the government certainly doesn't care about those who can afford it, but is offering a cheap solution for poor people, of which there are a lot in Brazil. It's not the USA and American principles don't reign supreme everywhere, much to the chagrin of people like you.

Re:The load is your own.

[N3WBI3]

"high-quality free software" has proved more effective in stimulating computer use among the poor than scaled-down versions of proprietary software.

hmm yes I saw the quote what I did not see was any evidance to support it....

Re:The load is your own.

[timjdot]

My friend last night told me a DELL with a 17in flat panel goes for $300. That's pretty darn cheap. Better than $500 in Brazil! Yup: http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/category. aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs Those Chinese sure make some cheap computers! Looks like computers are headed towards free only slightly slower than software. What's next? Videos? Music? TimJowers

It's about freedom

[gilesjuk]

If they buy a Windows solution they get licenses and that's about it. If they commission the creation of software that is open source then they get the actual code to do what they like with.

Re:no, its mostly a victory for command line luddi

[Lobo93]

Heavens no! We cannot, and must not stand in the way of the industrial revolution and those technocratic philanthropists who so kindly lead us into ever new and exiting markets, where "flashy" and "sexy" will bend the rules of entropy!

Now run along and buy something that will define you as a successful and prosperous individual, like a new cellphone or a BMW 7-series! "Made to be sold, not used!" is our motto, remember?

Re:the apple loan

[Technician]

usually paying in full builds credit

Only if you are paying credit bills. Utilities and rent don't count unless you are late, then it builds a bad report.

Been there, done that for many years. Paying your utilities and such by check does not get anything reported to the credit reporting agencies. Your report if it even exists simply shows no credit history. I didn't have credit, couldn't get credit. Getting a student loan is one way out. Another is buying something and making a massive down payment with store credit on the remainder. My first credit was at Radio Shack for the M100 laptop. (boy does that date me) I put 300 down and paid off the bill in the next two months. (it was high interest in-store credit. I had no desire to carry much of a balance at near 25% interest.) About a year later to the day, I started getting the offers in the mail. Credit was established.

Either pay on your student loan, or buy something at a big box store with a big down. The big down helps sway reluctant credit managers who are shy of no credit history. Then pay that sucker off in full within a month or two. In-store credit is high interest. Oh and avoid the rent-to-own rip-off's. They sell $300 items for $600 or more and still charge outrageous interest. Check the prices. Save a few bucks and hit the big box instead. You will get at least twice as much for the same money.

Why do you think that?

[openglx]

Why do you think that people would use Micro$oft products? They don't know ANYTHING about computers (yet), so they won't be bothering themselvs to install something they don't know how to use. They will use what came with the Connected PC.

Micro$oft doesn't want to people start using Linux because it's the begining of the revolution. Think this way: Which one is most likely to get a job on a small store that already uses Linux? The guy with a Connected PC with Linux or the one using Windows?

15 Hours a month?

[TerminaMorte]

allowing 15 hours of Web surfing.

Don't get me wrong, this is very cool. Providing low cost (quality) computers to the poor is great.

Using open source software is great (even if you don't like linux, you can appreciate the fact that Windows would be very costly to keep up to date and repair... especially with dialup.)

My problem is thus:

1) Dialup. I'm not sure about the phone situation in brazil, but is it reliable? Even if it is, wouldn't DSL be a better choice (if it were financed by the government).

2) 15 hours? This doesn't seem like enough, even for casual surfing. 40 hours a month (Old NetZero, anyone?) is far more reasonable, while still making sure that people don't abuse this service.

This is a great start, but more internet solutions need to be adopted. Perhaps after enough people buy computers, there will be enough pressure for companies to provide better connections down there.

Re:15 Hours a month?

[Lemmingue]

DSL here in Brazil is too expensive to someone who needs to buy a computer paying in 24 months. Dialup will not be a problem. There's a lot of free internet providers here, including almost every phone company.

Re:15 Hours a month?

[iksrazal_br]

ADSL is all over the place and there is also cable broad band. And the lines are reasonably stable.

Yet almost no one can afford broad band (banda larga) and if they can its only 128kbps or maybe 256kbps.

I think 15 hours a month is fine for a start - the goal is education and you have to start somewhere.

Re:15 Hours a month?

[xgamer04]

2) 15 hours?

E-mail doesn't take that long to pull of the server...

Re:15 Hours a month?

[vettemph]

1) DSL is required if you have a porn addiction or always download new Linux CD's. If your just trying to be educated and connected, a text based (or low graphics/low ADs) internet goes a long way.

2) 15 hours for a small fee (additional time cost extra?). I don't think they will turn off your modem after 15 hrs. What kind of profit model is that. AOL used to offer a deal like this.

Re:Which distro will Brazill use?

[ZehFernando]

Why, Conectiva/Mandriva/Mandrake of course!

Re:Brazil?

[dusik]

It is the home of the Brazilian wax, you fool. Show some respect.

I download GIGS of stuff every hour

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

They must make really cheap storage devices over there in Asia if you're downloading tens of terabytes a year.

But you're right about American DSL. My DSL connection hasn't even tried to wake me up in the morning. Not even once. I have to use an alarm clock.

Visit in batches - Please dont /. it

[narsiman]

Here is a 3rd world govt that implemented IT in every facet of its operations. Corruption was part of the deal but committment was paramount. The end result is a happy citizen. Netcraft links this as an Apache on Linux site. It would be prudent for Brazilian planners to learn from the experiences of the AP implementers.

Really?

[jpetts]

This is where technology can be most wisely spent, where it will have the greatest benefit, and where kids will actually learn about computers.

What about this story

Wild Bill's Bi-Yearly Retreat

[BoRegardless]

Is Brazil on his mind, Where Bill reads, thinks, and charts MS's future...(from WSJ the other day)...

Bill, Bill, where are you?____

The bottom line gets lost in the log cabin on the waterfront overlooking the Cascade Mountains with the 100 of the worlds Classic books on your 2nd floor office with 2 Dell Monitors, and absolute solitude & Orange soda, where Brazil likely is not thought of, nor of what the bottom line is in Brazil, or your Cascade lake front retreat, where cost is not something you bother with...

Clue #1: It is the Money Given vs Value Received...

Clue #2: It is the headaches with Windows...

If Windows was $25-50 per pop, and any support was for a fee, then maybe, just maybe, there would be enough Value & Brazil would be "in the fold".

Re:Wild Bill's Bi-Yearly Retreat

[vettemph]

I would (and do) pay for linux sooner than I would use M$ for free. Why is the world full of such fools. The high price does not make it better. That may work for houses and cars, not software.

I have access to "free" windows. I just don't like the stuff. Most of my co-workers have the "free" version. I l;augh at them. I laugh at there viruses and crashes.

Another bored moderator reduces the quality of /.

[Futurepower(R)]

Someone has moderated the parent comment "Flamebait". However, everything in the comment is factual.

And...

[ZehFernando]

Something more to think about: Microsoft Office XP Standard costs $479.95.

$479.95 isn't that much in USA. I bet most of the people here make *at least* this over a week - probably much more. However, right here, getting that much money *a month* is considered more than average. The minimum wage is like 1/10th of that.

This is not to say 'the country is a poor country, boo-hoo sell us cheap software' (although it *is* a poor country). The thing is, values here are different; a software like that is *too expensive*. You can buy food here for a tiny fraction of how you'd pay for in on USA. Wages here are also a lot cheaper than they are in the States - even for the same job with the same qualifications. It's just that not only the country is poor, but living cost is also low; the values and the scales are different. You can get to a really good grill restaurant and get totally wasted with so much good food - and spending less than us$ 10. The same thing would cost around us$ 150 on USA - with the same restaurant chain! (Fogo de Chão - there's one around Detroit I think).

When selling software, people don't think "ho well, I'll use one third/half/quarter of my salary to pay for this software..".. they usually think "ho well, I'll use 1/2/3 months worth of salary to pay for this software.. well nevermind, I'll just buy a copy next corner for $3".

There are lots of wrong stuff going on the government of this country. And one of them is the coice for Microsoft Software. My dad used to work for the state a while ago.. Basically the entire office ran on pirated win95 with microsoft office, and of course, they had no 'central' support or IT management so I used to go there fix their computers. Switching to some linux based solution with open office (or whatever) would pose an obstacle at first but would be just as it was before on the long run. With less virus and trojans, that is (I remember I spent an entire weekend getting the entire office rid of macro template virii - man that was fucked up).

I, for one, commend them on this choice. On the long run, this will prove to be the best choice, contrary to the FUD the local Microsoft is spreading.

Of course, money saved from going to Microsoft's pockets will end up going to some politician's bank account, so who am I fooling. Nothing of this matters.

Re:And...

[ZehFernando]

1400 is a lot of money, but a real bargain when you consider the hardware costs here (on a nutshell: nothing is made here / everything is imported / we pay 60% of federal fees for imports / final local price for pc hardware is usually 2x the original USA price). So even if you have the channels to get computer hardware through smugglers (not hard actually), you'd pay like $2500 for a decent computer, sans monitor.

Re:And...

[xgamer04]

$479.95 isn't that much in USA.

Maybe for a nice piece of furniture. I sure as hell won't pay ~500 dollars for a software license that will be forceably obsoleted by the same company 3-5 years later. I'll use some random text editor and save my files in RTF of text, thanks very much.

Re:And...

[jav27]

Can you REALLY eat in a really good grill restaurant in Brazil and get totally wasted with ONLY $10?? Im from venezuela and this is also a poor country, but food and living expenses are way out of line with the low salaries. (a meal in a cheap restaurant is much more than 10 bucks, average $20). Food is still cheaper than in the US, but still expensive for the average income. Thats why it's a poor country. is Brazil different?

Re:And...

[ZehFernando]

Oh yeah. A common grill entry fee around here is R$ 27 - around us$ 7 on the best ones. It's anough to eat (remember what I call 'a grill' is the 'Rodízio' where you eat a lot paying only the entrance). Add a few drinks (covered separately), and viola, us$ 10.

Also, because of the size of the country, bovine meat production is pretty easy here (as it is on Argentina), so it's *probably* why you won't see restaurants like that on Venezuela. Economically wise, I think both countries are a lot similar though.

Re:And...

[jav27]

that makes sense. Now that I think of it. I remember years ago that I visited the border with some friends.There are two towns, in each side. I remember vividly that the people living in the sister town in the venezuelan side, Santa Elena, used to buy meat in the brazilian town, while the brazilians used to cross to buy cheap gasoline. How much is a computer? a cheap white box no brand one? in Vzla, it's around $700 for a celeron and $1500 for the cheapest laptop.

Re:And...

[ZehFernando]

Are you talking us$? It's the same thing around here. Basically we get the USA prices + 20%-50% if we buy through smugglers channels or + 100%-200% if we buy through 'normal' stores (pretty rare, if you have a Dell or any other brand computer around here you're an abomination).

Ultra expensive hardware is the biggest problem to 'informatization' in Brazil.

Re:And...

[jav27]

yeah, us$ for comparison. Same thing, only rich affluent people buy brand computers, and a mac is a rare luxury item. The cost of broadband internet access has come down a bit though, they charge $30 a month for 256 kpbs.

Mod parent WAY down

[Jonti]

It's not funny -- it's just pathetic. As two people have pointed out (I'm the third) there is *NO* grammatical error in the quoted sentence. It is funny to sneer at others' correct grammar? I don't think so. Not even on Slashdot.

Re:Mod parent WAY down

[noidentity]

You see, it's a quantum post, funny because a few people thought it was funny when it wasn't. Well that's the theory at least.

Dell and financing.

[theolein]

The financing you're talking about comes with 2% interest, and a lot of attached conditions, and it's not Dell in any case. It's ABN-AMRO bank in Brazil (Dutch bank), which, in effect, is like applying for a small credit from a bank, since it has the same stipulations and limitations.

So, technically, you're wrong. Dell does not offer financing. It merely has an arrangment with a bank to deal with small credit applications.

However, considering that your grammar is as bad as your spelling, I'm not surprised that your ability to think is limited.

Re:Which distro will Brasil use?

[Anonymous Coward]

KURUMIN is the goverment
reccomended distro here in brasil.
it is a brazilian portuguese distro
based on kanotix/knoppix
that runs faster and has a smaller
footprint than both the distros it
is based on. it also has a whole
bunch of gui scripts to configure
your settings like suse or mandrake
http://www.guiadohardware.net/kurumin/

Oh yeah, my mistake.

[ZehFernando]

Sorry, I forgot about that. My reply was a semi-joke regarding the recent conectiva/mandrake merge and the creation of Mandriva.

Re:Be thankful that you have Lula!!!

[mestreBimba]

Does bad mouthing American Presidents really add any value to your argument?

We could bad mouth Brazil's Presidents and wouldn't have to look hard for ammunition.... or have you forgotten how Pres. Collor robbed over 1 billion dollars from the treasury of Brasil before fleeing to Miami. Now he is back into the politcal scene in Brasil.

You start off well then segue into a totally unrelated field.

It is possible to make a good argument about the social strata in Brasil without devolving into US bashing.

Undemocratic?

[Tyrell Hawthorne]

"The government shouldn't be the one who decides what hardware and software will go into these computers," said Júlio Semeghini, a member of Congress from the opposition Social Democratic Party. "That's undemocratic."

The government is the one behind the program, and is subsidising the computers, right? Why then shouldn't they be allowed to decide what comes preinstalled with the systems? They give people an option to buy something. After they have bought it, they are free to do what they want with it. But hey, it's the opposition being quoted, of course they will be whining and of course they will try to play on emotions. "Undemocratic", right.

Loss leader

[peacefinder]

We're talking about a million machines, here, that are going to jumpstart the consumer PC economy in a pretty large developing market. If Microsoft really wants to capture this market in the long term, they should offer a really big loss-leader play. Maybe the biggest loss-leader ever.

They could offer Win XP Pro to this program gratis (but not open) for a loss in potential gross retail sales of about US$200 million. Their actual net cost would be much less. (Although how much less is probably known only to them.) They were reputed to have about US$50 billion in the bank last July, so I'm thinking they could manage it.

It'd be a great ploy... they'd get to look charitable, call out the Brazillian government on the ideology question, and potentially genereate a huge installed base in a developing market. If they win the contract, they win a huge market share. If they don't win, they get to blame the loss on ideology.

Of course, next China and India would want the same deal. But that's the marketplace for ya.

I suppose they're trying to exhaust their political options first, before dropping that much cash on the problem. But if they don't get in there soon, they're going to miss the boat altogether.

(And wouldn't that be such a shame?)

Black market sales?

[michaelas]

In the article, I read that some computers are sold on the black market. Why is that? Taxes? Stolen parts? Pirated software? ...Michael...

Re:Black market sales?

[iksrazal_br]

In a word, taxes. Anything imported has a %60 surcharge. And astonishingly only about %30 of the population has formal work - ie, the rest are street vendors and such and don't really pay taxes. Any cash street business for sure doesn't pay taxes.

Still that only mostly applies to the do it yourself crowd assembling boxes. There are indeed more established places to buy computers - laptops for instance.

Re:Which distro will Brazill use?

[Taruhn]

The distribution will be defined by the winner of the government contract. The favorite so far (Cobra - a IT company also runned by the government) is proposing its own distribution - Freedows (www.freedows.com). Another vender (Positivo) is the MS partner on this deal.

Much Cry for Nothing

[Rivabem]

People here in Brazil have 2 choices today.

Buy a expensive computer(cash or monthly) with legal Windows copy or buy a cheaper(cash, or 3 installments) in the gray market with pirate Windows.

Now, besides those, people can buy a cheaper computer paying monthly(24!) with Linux. Dont want Linux? Dont like?

Buy a windows copy, cash, for about 50% of the hardware price you have.. or by a 5 CDs for U$10 with Windows, Office, and whatever you want...

Where is the problem? They're giving the 'right' to people to feel good not having to pirate anything...

Id prefer people to have the choice for one, or even both systems. BUT, no one is disallowing MS to offer for those that buy this PC a special offer on Windows, very cheap and installed for free. Its just not OEM installed, but also not charged from those who dont want windows at all

Re:A resounding Yes!

[Darby]

(1) MySQL is not an enterprise level database, its nice and I use it for some small thigs around the office but I would never run an ENT app on it.

However, Postgres *is*.
Nice strawman argument, though.

OT: sig

[Spunk]

Wow, 4 mistakes on one line. That's really impressive!

I have been reading slashdot since 97. Average score 1, friends 0. Frightening how realistic this whole culture is..

You have a point but

[einhverfr]

You have to understand what the government is trying to do. This is not about the Digial Divide... It is about populism and power.

The idea is that poorer people can use the internet to organize and help solve their problems. Cheap computers with financing represents one piece of this effort, while the large expenditures are actually occuring in the area of community computer centers. These centers have been very successful.

The goal is not to build a digital economy, it is to give the poor people of Brazil a means of coordinating their efforts in making their lives better. We can argue whether this or the schools are more important until pigs grow wings and use helicopter pads, but if you see what their goals are, I think that they are doing a good job in pursuing them.

Re:Be thankful that you have Lula!!!

[agoliveira]

He does not have a drinking problem at all. All this turmoil was caused by a misinformed reporter.
Lula is a regular guy, he came from the masses and, like many of us, me included, likes to have a beer in the weekends.

Lula does not have the personality of an alcoholic

[Futurepower(R)]

This is my understanding also. The big issue is not whether he drinks alcohol, but whether he has the personality of an alcoholic. Ronald Reagan was a chronic liar; an entire book was written about his lies. That is typical alcoholic behavior.

Collor is a small-time thief compared to Bush.

[Futurepower(R)]

I agree about Collor de Mello. But he is a small-time thief compared to Reagan and both Bush presidents. George W. Bush has borrowed trillions that have gone into the pockets of his friends, and that U.S. taxpayers are expected to pay back.

Those who want corruption in the U.S. government want the government to borrow. The corrupters find ways to transfer the money to themselves.