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Judge Denies TigerDirect's Request for Injunction
wallykeyster writes "As predicted in previous discussions the judge has ruled against TigerDirect's request for injunction to prevent Apple from using 'Tiger' in their advertising." I heard that both people who still held respect for TigerDirect no longer do.
I can say "Tiger" again?
So it looks like TigerDirect's injuction was nothing but a paper tiger.
Next up, TigerDirect sues Microsoft for using the word Direct in DirectX.
Tony the Tiger, you're next!
Judge Lenard said "any given customer who cross-shops TigerDirect and Apple, whether over the internet or in person at their retail local stores, will be able to distinguish their respective retail outlets due to the distinctive differences in their marketplaces' appearance and messages."
Need proof? Look at the shiny polished Slashdot logo at the top. When was the last time you looked at that and thought "Oh, I'm in the TigerDirect section of Slashdot!"
The coolest voice ever.
So you concede then, that Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly, because Linux is available for the PC. Fair enough.
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
The number of trademarkable things is increasing daily, as more people go into business making more products.
The number of words in the English language, however, remains the same.
Just a namespace collision isn't evidence of trademark infringement. That requires (or should require -- I gave up on learning the details of IP law once I realized that it made no sense) one company to choose their name specifically to leech off another successful name.
Tigerdirect has been around since before Apple picked the name Tiger.
Apple wouldn't want anything to be named after such a shitty company.
So what's the deal?
IP rights? To the name "Tiger"?
Right.
How could a term like "Tiger" in any non-judicial sense (such as common sense) ever be accused of being an intellectual property?
... for their use of the letter "T"
When Apple deliberately prevent competing operating systems from working, I'll have my doubts. Microsoft, on the other hand, have been less than welcoming to competition in the past - remember the DR-DOS and Windows 3.1 incompatibility?
Apple make their own computers and are well within their rights to ship their own OS. Microsoft, on the other hand, forces OEMs to ship Windows, and uses decidedly underhand techniques to ensure their OS prevails.
And tomorrow the stock exchange will be the human race
So where can I moderate Cowboyneals comments on this story?
I generally think the editor's comments are annoying attempts by them to try and sound funnier and smarter than they really are.
But this one at least made me smile. Lighten up. It's their website, not yours. They've been adding commentary like this for years, most of it's dumb, sure, but that's how the world works.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
I don't see how naming an operating system after after an animal is trampling anybody's IP rights. Last time I checked, the word "tiger" was a common english word- it's not Apple's problem that TigerDirect choose that word to be part of their name. Besides, do you really think anyone was confused about Mac OS X Tiger and TigerDirect?
And as far as being hammered, Apple does get hammered, and rightly so, when it comes to DMCA threats, etc. Apple certainly is far from perfect or an ideal corporate citizen. But all-in-all, I think they are better than Microsoft when it comes to their corporate citizenship.
The dry fish swims alone.
With respect to OEMs, where can I buy my iMac at a discount if I don't want Mac OS X? They force me to buy OS X with the hardware, which is no different that what Microsoft is doing.
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
Are you insane! How will the slashbots know what the current group think is without the asinine comments!
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Will companies and products have to have numbers in place of names? After all just about everything is trademarked these days until you decide to invent words... Right now I'm off to buy a 5759852850 by 1284257630530. See you later...
Open-Source > *
As I type this there is a TigerDirect banner ad at the top of my Slashdot page...
I'm sure there's some witty comment I could be making here, but I have no idea what it is.
I never will.
In a society run by lawyers, no one seems to get along.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
Yes, but MS was forcing that through another company. They were using their market share an importance in a market to set the business plans of companies that they had no direct ownership in. And they directed those companies not to even offer competing OS's. That's not cool. It's certainly anti-competitive.
No one is saying MS should be forced to offer X-box'es with linux preinstalled. They can ship them with whatever they like, they're manufacturing them and selling them. But when they tell Dell that every person who orders a computer there has to also buy a copy of windows, that's pretty crappy.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Win 3.1 was prevented from running on DR-DOS, sounds much like the recent Real and Ipod saga. Microsoft prevented OEMs from distributing Windows AND other OSes at the same time, Apple does just the same - in both cases the after sales market isnt prevented from doing anything. Apple doesnt like competition any more than Microsoft.
Yeah: imagine a dictionary full of (C)s and (R)s:
Tigers(C) (Panthera tigris(R)) are mammals of the Felidae(TM) family, one of four "big cats"(R)(C) that belong to the Panthera(R) genus. Tigers(R) are "predatory carnivores"(TM)
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
missed another cut :-(
If it's news for nerds, keep this kind of commentary out of it please.
*Man* do we need a "Haha you're new here" moderation for these kinda comments. This isn't a journalism site -- it's an entertainment and discussion site. I damn well *expect* there to be snide partisan commentary from the editors (a poorly-chosen job title, but oh well -- deal with it).
(I wouldn't be surprised to see Microsoft buy a large PC manufacturer to get TCPA/NGCSB/Palladium off the ground, but that's neither here nor there. And mark my words, Apple will produce "trusted computers" once they've let Microsoft, Intel, and all take the PR flak.)
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
Imagine if someone would register (TM), (R) and (C)! Recursive endless loop!
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
Right, except Apple was also granted a trademark in 2003 for the use of "tiger" in reference to an operating system. Why didn't Tiger Direct take action then? Oh, I know, because this is a blatant PR grab.
If the tables were turned, I'm sure apple would do the same thing to tiger direct. Apple has quite a colorful litigeous history.
From the blurb: "I heard that both people who still held respect for TigerDirect no longer do.
From my dealing of people who put TigerDirect first on their lists I doubt that many of the TigerDirect customer base give a damn about either Apple or Geek politics. Let's not take ourselves too seriously here.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
On trademark infringement, companies don't sue other companies to try to cash in. They do it because if they don't attempt to protect their trademark, courts will rule that it isn't a trademark anymore and isn't protectible. Aspirin, Zipper.
"It is technically possible for a manufacturer to install any number of operating systems on a computer. The user then has to choose which operating system to use during the boot process (after switching on the machine). However, Microsoft OEMs are only allowed to install Windows. No machines with both Windows and, for example, the free (!) operating system Linux, can legally be sold by OEMs."
Doesn't sound especially fair to anyone but Microsoft, that. Remember who the convicted monopolist is?
And tomorrow the stock exchange will be the human race
What exactly is your point?
AFAICT, Tiger Direct does not market an operating system under their name, and it seems quite obvious that Apple is not using the word "Direct" in any of their marketing or naming strategies.
Again I ask, what exactly is your point?
Trademarks only reach so far, and Tiger Direct's does not (rightly IMHO) reach far enough. Next thing you know, African tour operators will be trying to sue Apple over the name of their browser, the French will be trying to sue Apple over their chosen name for autoconfig, mathemeticians and philosophers the world over will be trying to sue Apple over the name of their (bought out) music software, auto makers will be suing them over the use of the term "dashboard", etc. etc. etc.
Trademarks only go so far.
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
So Apple's selling dual boot Linux systems now? If not, I still don't see a difference, other than that Microsoft was prosecuted and Apple wasn't.
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
Oh, I'm sure Apple wouldn't have a problem that.
I'm still pissed about going all the way down to Comerica Park last night just to have the Tiger's (Detroit Baseball) game rained out.
Now here comes Slashdot yelling "Tiger Tiger Tiger" at me.
Apple aren't, but you can buy a Mac running Linux from here. They're an authorised Apple OEM. There you go.
And tomorrow the stock exchange will be the human race
But I still have to pay for OS X. It's not as if they allowed the dealer to unbundle it. So the effect is the same, except that with a Microsoft OEM, I might have to buy a CD from Cheapbytes if I want to install Linux.
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
Well - you are close: www.5tigers.org www.tiger.to www.tigers.co.uk Lawyers - sharpen up your pencils!
1) Assloads of publicity from suing Apple. Suing the fruity one always gets you some attention no matter how frivolous.
2) The precedent of defending their trademark. So if another catalog retailer ever comes along with a name that really does infringe, they can't say that TigerDirect failed to protect their TM.
I heard that both people who still held respect for TigerDirect no longer do.
That's right, CowboyNeal, say what everyone wants to hear. It'll drive up the ad revenue.
You asked for a dual-booting machine. Don't move the goalposts.
In any case, it is not the same. When you buy a computer from Apple, you are getting just that - an Apple. Apple have the right to ship whatever they want with their own computers. If Microsoft made a PC, they'd be allowed to ship Windows with it no matter what.
The problem is that other companies, building their own computers, are being forced to ship nothing but Windows - or they get no Windows at all. Now, if Apple forced other companies who made PPC board to ship the Mac OS, then maybe it would be similar.
And tomorrow the stock exchange will be the human race
You're still missing the point. Apple can put whatever they want on their computers when they sell them. Microsoft can put whatever they want on their computers. Of course, MS doesn't sell computers. So instead they almost blackmailed Dell, Gateway, etc, into only providing Windows on their machines.
Then it went a step further. So Dell is putting windows on all their machines. Then MS says, you can't include netscape either, even if it runs on top of Windows. You have to use our browser only. And if you don't, we'll revoke your ability to sell our OS, and you'll go out of business. That's pretty crappy if you ask me.
But yeah, if MS bought Dell, they'd be free to sell Dells with whatever software they liked, and they wouldn't have to offer linux. I'd be fine with that. You can limit your own company however you want. Just don't go around telling other companies not to support your competitors.
You can sort of draw a parallel with Apple and the iPod. They don't have the huge marketshare that MS had with Windows, but they're definitely the major player in mp3 players. Belkin makes a lot of iPod accessories. I'm sure they're making plenty of money off of them. But they also make accessories for the Dell DJ. Maybe Apple should call up their CEO and tell them to stop making stuff for Dell's mp3 player, or Apple will do everything they can to make the belkin accessories not work on ipods. Would you approve of that? Now pretend that losing their ipod business would kill the Belkin company, put them out of business. It wouldn't, because they're well diversified in products, but with MS it was different. If Dell or Gateway had lost their windows licenses, it would've been the end of their companies. MS was holding incredible power with their OS monopoly, and they were not the least bit shy in using it. That was very detrimental to consumers, and that's why the DOJ took interest in it.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
No, you don't get asked for the last 4 digits of your SS number. i just ordered something last week.
Mod a troll.
So, let's say sales drop because people are disgusted with TigerDirect's boneheaded move. Obvious, they were right. Apple diluting their brand name. Er, right? post hoc ergo propter hoc
That was Exxon.
This little publicity stunt already backfired with bad press, rather than free brand exposure.
Surprise! All that "bad press" you speak off is free brand exposure.
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Or MacMail?
I ordered a refurbushed X1 projector a month ago, and they never asked for any part of my SSN. My order came through perfectly, and I already got the rebate check.
I don't know how it is in the US, but in the Benelux (Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands) you should not be able to get a trademark on a common word. So both Jaguar and Tiger should not be able to get a trademark.
However you can get a trademark on a image mark, which could include a common word, but it will also be accompanied by the font used, other graphic elements and the colors used.
...is something that just comes with the territory, one could hypothesize.
(No insult intended to the many decent folk and businesses that are down there, but your situation's akin to your IP addresses being located in a block infested by spammers.)
Those who can, do. Those who can't, write technology blogs.
No doubt TigerDirect will now appeal to the Dutch courts.
But Officer, I DID read the f**king article!
- IP rights? To the name "Windows"?
:-)
Right.
In that case, it was probably more expedient for Apple to settle as the laws in other countries are different than US laws. Companies run into problems like this when selling overseas.
TigerDirect has a pretty good case here. Apple is using a name they used before Apple in the same industry.
It would different if Apple used "TigerDirect" for the code name of their OS but they used a common English word. For example, in the case of MS, US courts have ruled that you can't claim a common word (Windows) but you can claim distinct combinations of common words and letters (Windows 95, Windows Me). Also adding the company name also makes it distinct.
Could I come out with an operating system called OS X? Apple doesn't have anything called OS X, but they do have a Mac OS X.
Microware sued Apple over OS 9. It had a real-time OS on PowerPC embedded systems called OS-9. After a few years, a judge ruled that since both companies occuped different markets, it was unlikely that a consumer would be confused. In your case, if you wrote an OS for personal computers called OS X, I think Apple would have a case.
this is one of those cases where Apple just didn't do their research.
And you know that how? Again "Tiger" is a common word. TigerDirect does not own "Tiger" but combinations of "Tiger" and other words. There are 200 trademarks containing "Tiger" but no OS named "Tiger". I think they did their research.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Could I come out with an operating system called OS X?
Try starting at OS I, then OS II... eventually OS IX then OS X. I distinctly remember something in US IP history that says you can't protect a number. X is just another number - I was going to say "just not in the common numerical system, then I realised that one place that system is commonly used is legal documents. Long story short, go ahead, market an Operating System X - just make sure you lead up to it appropriately.
good point.
cool sig by the way (ingnore mine!)
sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
Right, because as we all know, Spotlight, Dashboard, ImageCore, QuickTime, iTunes, FileVault, Aqua, Quartz, Finder, Carbon, Cocoa, iChat, iCal, iSync, DVD Player, Preview, XCode, etc., etc., etc. are all developed by the open source community and given to Apple for free.
Safari and the BSD layer of OS X are just about the only things of any significance that have roots in open source. But even for those, just about *ALL* the new code that ends up in OS X in those, is being done by Apple's own engineers.
What's wrong with TigerDirect? I've bought stuff from them before. Cheap prices, good selection, everything shipped on time. No problems. BTW, the banner ad at the top of my screen right now is for TigerDirect.
In the US, you can trademark common words, so long as it's unrelated to the product being marketed -- so Mustang(tm) Cars is a legit trademark, but Mustang Horses are not.
IIRC, you also have the right to defend your trademark as it applies to a broad category of products. So, for example, Apple Computer's trademark applies to "Computer Hardware and Software", but not "Recorded Music" (where Apple Records has the trademark and is suing Apple Computer over iTunes).
So, at least on the surface, it seems like a computer company called Tiger has a case against an operating system called Tiger. But, it sounds like the judge's preliminary decision was basically "Apple is a much bigger company, so follow the golden rule: Those with the gold makes the rules. Apple spent a lot of money marketing Tiger/10.4, so it stays on the market.".
Still it wouldn't suprise me to see TigerDirect walk away with several million bucks from all of this. In other words this lawsuit is just a negotiating tatic.
Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
That's full of (C)s, (R)s and (TM)s.
you will be asked, in the very last field of the last window, for the last four digits of your social security number.
Child posts say they don't, but even if they did, how would they tell if you gave a fake? How would they know that your SSN doesn't end in 1234? Seem's a foolish thing to either believe of worry about.
PS. IANAA (I ain't a yank) so I'm only assuming that no organisation other than the government and perhaps your employer would know your SSN or be able to verify its veracity.
Heh, a self referencing sig, eh? :) And thanks. Thought it was a decent enough Trek quote, sig worthy at least. :)
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
One of the companies Apple ran out of business by suing them was Orange Computer, who made the Orange Peel, an Apple 2 clone.
(cartman voice)
GOD DAMNNED HIPPIES!
(/cartman voice)
Allah forbid anyone has to protect what is rightfully theirs.
Evil or not... Get BIG enough and someone is going to try and sue you. Look at poor Wendys finger.
Apple deliberately prevented BeOS from working on their newer hardware.
In effect, they forced Apple hardware users to use their OS, in a time period when a significant part of the 'leading' mindshare was defecting.
Because we know that Apple would start foolish lawsuits.
Now, if Apple forced other companies who made PPC board to ship the Mac OS, then maybe it would be similar.
Apple drove THOSE folks completely out of the market by deliberately preventing them from producing hardware that would run the Mac OS.
Umm, that doesn't weaken your arguement, but it strongly reflects on what kind of operation Apple runs.
yeah, because mach and gcc are so insignificant, right?
if apple had to write all the stuff in OSX from scratch, OSX would still be unreleased and still in development to this day.
apple owes its very existence today to FOSS. if there were no mach, no gcc, there would be no OSX and no apple (if you believe apple could still be floating today on an os as backwards as macos 9, you're mistaken).
well, i suppose an apple without osx would be primarily an ipod manufacturer, and itunes would be running solely on win32...
Microsoft prevented OEMs from distributing Windows AND other OSes at the same time, Apple does just the same
Oh? What about these?
God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
No, but these guys might.
The outrageous thing about some of the points in your comment is that Apple specifically DID run several computer companies out of the market telling them they would no longer be allowed to run the MacOS on their hardware. Yet you draw the analogy only to Microsoft, and only as a hypothetical threat that Microsoft MIGHT have done. Whereas Apple actually took said action.
Seems Microsoft might have committed assault. Apple, however, committed murder.
TigerDirect is claiming rights to the name 'Tiger'.
Apple is claiming the same rights.
Which party were you ridiculing?
If the tables were turned, I'm sure apple would do the same thing to tiger direct. Apple has quite a colorful litigeous history.
;-)
Big businesses hire lawyers.
Lawyers that just sit around the office all day, looking for someone to sue. You either sick 'em on outsiders or they start looking fo a reason to sue their coworkers
You can't take the sky from me...
Well, there we have it. Both remaining TigerDirect customers have responded.
Heh.
You are only asked the last 4 digits of your social security number if you are applying to buy something under their extended payment plans. In which case they use another company to extend the credit out and it is needed for the approval process (just like any other loan application) to verify your credit rating and help them make a decision on whether or not to extend credit.
You will never be asked your SS number, or any part of your SS number if you are not applying to purchase on credit from them.
Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all.
I heard that TigerDirect is going to allow anyone free use of the word "tiger," but only after you pay in full for it and wait 4-6 weeks for the mail-in rebate.
The horrible, horrible puns!
Athlon and Opteron certainly weren't english words before AMD created them.
Funny. I drive to work every day on a road named Athllon Drive (spelt differently, pronounced the same). Have done for a number of years. Before that, I rode my bike along the same road to get to school.
Don't assume, just because you haven't heard it before, that a word is new. It may be borrowed (deliberately or accidentally) from another arena or another language.
My point was not about trademark law itself. But on the practice to allow companies to trademark such common expressions as Tiger, Apple, Windows, Kinder, or even regular peoples' names like Milka, Mercedes or Ford. The problems which ensue are well earned (but mostly not by those suffering from them).
Ciao,
Dscho
---
Who sues Sue?
I just had an unusual thought on this... what if the judge himself is a mac user?
Is it possible that one's preferred operating system/computer or choice could skew a decision like this into one company's favor over another? Would this be considered a conflict of interest, considering how many Mac users tend to be rabidly protective of their systems, that could easily get a ruling like this overturned?
As far as I know, something like this has not been put into practice yet, but it could certainly be a factor that could influence the decision making process.
8==8 Bones 8==8
That's not quite the same thing. Apple actually does have direct sales operations, and your 'AppleDirect' could easily be confused with those. TigerDirect does not, in contrast, have an operating system.
This space unintentionally left unblank.
Think of it in terms of circles with the example TSR. The letters mean nothing by themself. But in an IT setting, they indicate Terminate and Stay Resident programs. In gaming circles they represent a popular role play gaming company. Unless you purposely used "Intelectual Property" as opposed to "Trademarks", in which case you'd be astute, but only in your obfuscation and condfusion.
The point in this thread was that FOSS has had very little to do with the development of 10.4. Not that FOSS has had very little to do with OS X as a whole.
And while gcc and mach are significant, they are proportionally very small parts of OS X, and they could be replaced by something else. There are certainly other compilers out there than gcc - betters ones too - and there are certainly other kernels too. I mean, Apple could have potentially licensed the Solaris or BeOS kernels, maybe QNX, or whatever else. Hell, perhaps even WinCE or something. There *ARE* options. Some are better than others, of course. But to say that there would be no Apple without FOSS, and especially to suggest that 10.4 is largely developed by the open source community, well, that's just bull.
I hope they get this Tiger business sorted out soon.
I was at an Esso gas station the other day and everyone was trying to force a copy of Apple's Tiger installer disk into their gas tanks.
So Monster Cable wouldn't be able to extort money since they think they own the god damn word.
I've got a tip for you in my pocket... but my arthritis... why don't you reach in there and get it?
am I the only person who thinks that TigerDirect wasn't hoping or caring about an injunction or settlement at all?
I think they are just trying to pull more eyeballs toward their site, get the interest of people who had never heard of them, and decided not to Switch.
// I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans.
What immortal hand or eye
Protects thy brand integrity?
Under India's burning skies
IP issues do not rise
If you've passed on being shot
You still can't sue the goddam lot
Genus felis does not code
Nor shifts boxes by the load
Salesmen in expensive shirts
Don't care if your image hurts
Tiger,tiger burning bright
In the forests of the night
Though extinction faces you
It faces all those brand-names, too
With sincere apologies to William Blake.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
I actually think that Apple has a right to use the UNIX trademark the way they have. They say that their system is based on UNIX, which I think 99.9% of people will agree with - heck, even the people who own the UNIX trademark agree. Here, they want Apple to pay in order to use the trademark. If I make a product that is based off of Linux, do I need Linus Torvalds permission to say "this is based on Linux"? No. I would need his permission to call it CoolBeansLinux because that would be creating a trademark based off his trademark, but stating informationally that it uses Linux is fine. Did I just say cool beans?
Come on man, it's not like Apple just sues random people willy-nilly with little provocation.
Oh wait... Apple...
Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
I think there a basic difference in US laws...
The US trademark and patent laws, as a rule, make no sense anymore.
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
Well, I don't think the Judge's decision was based on Apple being bigger so much as it is really, really difficult to get a preliminary injunction. TigerDirect would have to have proven irreperable harm and an exceedingly high chance of winning the case to justify a preliminary injunction. This case could still go in TigerDirect's favor and it all rests on whether mail-order computer seller and an operating system are considered the same industry.
i thought it was pretty funny, and nerds can have senses of humor too, right? relax, nerd.
You forget -- Apple tried several times to create a replacement os. nukernel, Pink, Copland, etc. -- all utter failures.
They eventually gave up and went with mach/gcc/etc. It is notable that apple did briefly look at BeOS and rejected it outright.
Sure, it's possible apple could have licensed QNX or whatnot -- but OSX would be much lesser if they had. They couldn't have licensed WinCE because WinCE didn't exist at the time apple was writing their new OS.
I've never heard anyone claim 10.4 is largely developed by the open source community. Sounds like a strawman to me.
The OSX you have today would be a radically different beast had they not gone FOSS. Its quite possible OSX would not even exist at all, and where would apple be today without OSX?
Apple bought out the contracts that they had with the clone manufactures. They didn't just stop sending them copies of the MacOS and pretend like nothing happened.
The whole Mac clones thing was a fiasco, and neither Apple nor the clones companies acted very well. I'm not going to apologize for anything Apple did.
But I still think the magnitude of between those issues is notable. Apple killing the cloning just made Macs more expensive. Apple is a very small percentage of the computer market. MS dictated the course of over 90% of the market, and arguably held back the growth and variation in the "computer industry" in some very significant ways.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
"I heard that both people who still held respect for TigerDirect no longer do."
/. editors, because I see TigerDirect ads here all the time! Yes, yes, I know they don't control the individual ads. I still find it very funny and quite ironic.
Must mean the
Nothing is inexplicable; only unexplained -Tom Baker, Doctor Who
Old Man: Hey, muscly arm, why the long face?
Chris: It's this girl. I can't talk to her. It's like girls are a different species or something.
Old Man: Who needs them? You like Popsicles?
Chris: Well, sure.
Old Man: Then you need to come on down to the cellar. I got a whole freezer full of Popsicles.
Chris: No, thanks. I gotta get going.
Old Man: Don't make me beg now.
Chris: You're funny. Bye.
Old Man: Get your fat ass back here.
Carthago delenda est!
Well, I think if the siuation was reversed and TigerDirect was selling an product called "AppleDirect", you can bet the injunction would have been granted. AFAICT, how well known a company is and the amount of marketing money they spend is grist for the mill in trademark cases, so the law is somewhat biased towards large corporations. Which means that Apple could be 100% in the wrong and still walk away with the "Tiger" name, although it might cost them some $$$.
(Correction: I was under the impression that TigerDirect sold computers under their own name brand. Looks like they don't or no longer do so, and they are just a retailer.)
Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
They should just eat some frosted flakes and wake up earlier in the morning, I say that would help a lot to make them a little less uptight. You don't see Tony going crazy because people say Tiger a lot. This is making me hungry.
Comment (appended to the beginning of the sig you post, 1337 chars)
If we boycott it, and take them as the frauds they are...
it's negative exposure.
Brand exposure is only good if it's positive exposure.
Mother Teresa's Name had good exposure.
Bin Laden is even better known... but not good for his 'brand'.
IP rights? To the name "Apple"?
Right.
The parent post to which I replied seemed to suggest that 10.4 owes just about everything to OSS. That's why I replied to it. Here's the original text from the root post in this thread - note how it specifically says "between .3 and .4":
.3 and .4."
.3 and .4, OSS had very little to do with the development, contrary to what is being claimed here by the original poster.
"Considering how much FOSS there is in OS X, surely more has been spent on advertising OS X than has been directly spent on developing OS X between
What I'm saying is very simple: No, between
I was not saying anything about the role of OSS in OS X as a whole. And that's the only thing you're talking about. So you're not countering my claims. You're countering some claims that you believe I made, but in fact didn't.
Now, later in the thread, I said that OS X would have been possible without FOSS. You counter that by saying that it would be radically different or that "possibly it would not even exist". Well, yes, of course, that might be the case. But it's also possible that they would have made good friends with Sun, licensed Solaris for X86, used closed compilers for it, developed OS X in exactly the way it's today, but using Java instead of Objective-C with Cocoa, done a Cocoa port for SPARC Solaris, complete with the Aqua GUI. It's possible that it would have resulted in Sun and Apple having 25% market share in desktop computers today.
That's perhaps not the most likely scenario. I'm simply using it as an example of how you can't predict what might have happened if they had not used OSS. There are lots of other possible outcomes than Apple being dead today.
They gave some other reason for asking, which I don't remember. I certainly did not apply for credit. It would have been a very large order.
"First, let us both agree that killing two birds with one stone is a good thing."
No no no. That's not a good thing _at all_. About the only time you'd accomplish this goal is if you killed a mama bird sitting on a nest of new hatchlings. And that's just plain mean.
Wait till PETA hears about this one!
I agree. Apple were losing market share to the cloners - instead of growing the Mac user base, the clones simply ate sales that would have been Apple's. Apple really had little choice but to end the cloning scheme.
As for Microsoft and innovation, Douglas Adams held the same view: "The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to lead all his customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who by peddling second-hand, second-rate technology, led them all into it in the first place."
And tomorrow the stock exchange will be the human race
"What I'm saying is very simple: No, between .3 and .4, OSS had very little to do with the development, contrary to what is being claimed here by the original poster."
.3 and .4. What I question is whether it is really in the long-term interests of Apple users.
My point was more to do with how much money was spent on marketing rather than active development. The FOSS point I admit is secondary and rightly does not change much between
Why was my original post was marked as flamebait? It was a serious point. Was that mod a devoted Apple user by any chance who has just spent all his spare cash on Tiger and is still coming to terms with it?
My little Linux and tech blog
Bin Laden is even better known... but not good for his 'brand'.
I dunno, did you ever see the episode of TV Nation with the segment called "Direct Mail"? Moore sent out two letter campaigns asking for money. One for "friends of Jeffery Dahmer" and one for an average young couple just trying to make ends meet. If you can't guess who got more money, you'll have to watch the show to find out.
If you search (Google) "tiger software" the second link is tigerdirect.com, "tiger hardware" the only ad is tigerdirect. Seems like things work just fine. "Tiger deal" has NO results for Apple's Tiger but does have the 5th link as tiger direct.
It's like tigerdirect didn't even try it for themselves.
Forget FF. You want Tiger Power(tm) cereal! That's what I've been having since T-day..
But when they tell Dell that every person who orders a computer there has to also buy a copy of windows, that's pretty crappy. Easy fix: don't buy a Dell. Look at http://www.newegg.com/ or *shudder* TigerDirct. They have complete systems or you can have your local geek tell you what parts to buy and (s)he can build it for you. Total flexability.
...For the beast had been reborn with its strength renewed, and the followers of Mammon cowered in horror.
It is notable that apple did briefly look at BeOS and rejected it outright.
I think Be wanted too much money for their OS and Apple therefore decided to go with something else.
they can't say that TigerDirect failed to protect their TM.
you had me at #!
NO NO NO!!!! The blog article is from 2001. For once Slashdot were right in rejecting. Bruce tried Technocrat in a different form back then, and did shut it down until a few months ago when he reopened it. But I don't think its recent sudden disappeance from the web -- I can't even get its DNS to resolve -- is deliberate on his part. His personal domain, Perens.com, is similarly AWOL, and as that's where the only email address of his I know is, I haven't been able to follow up. Something is going on, but I have no idea what -- domain hijacks?
Though Athlon may be someones name or some diss-used english word that doesn't diminish the point that companies create words that didn't exist before to associate with their product. Had I been arguing specifically about Athlon, that would have been relevant. Since Athlon is merely an example in a larger point your story is interesting, but not immaterial to the discussion.
AccountKiller
They can sell whatever they want on *their systems.*
Microsoft was pressuring *other companies* to sell with their OS installed.
If there weren't a difference, every device sold would have to have a choice of OS... VCRs, Palms, Tivos.... That's ridiculous.
Microsoft sells an OS and does not manufacture PCs. If it uses its OS monopoly to restrict trade by locking up other markets, it's in trouble.
This is what people tend to fail to understand about antitrust law. It isn't that having a monopoly is a moral sin. It's that using a monopoly so you get *all* of a restricted market instead of *some* of a freer market is bad for everyone but the monopolist. It's like racketeering.
Apple's own product line is not a market. Therefore they can do whatever they want with it. Only when they tell someone else what product line to have will they have trouble, and then only under very specific circumstances.
I'm glad at least somebody concedes that Apple deliberately kept a competing operating system from working. I doubt if the grandparent commenter would approve of any other hardware vendor introducing system functions that, say, make it impossible to run anything but Windows on their hardware....
But then when was this a reasonable forum?
Everyone that thinks they have a trademark whether it is registered or not believes that suing Apple is a good idea.
Apple has a tendency to entertain the lawsuits, so every corporate lawyer thinks its a great make-work type project.
Marketing types agree, because its free advertising.
Even individuals, like Carl "Butthead Astronomer" Sagan love to sue Apple over the use of internal project code names, because suing Apple is both fun and profitable.
Apple should have learned by now that using any word in the english language can result in a lawsuit, just like George Lucas has learned he can be sued by any writer thinking they own the notion of a hairy cute alien.
Maybe Apple should start using H4xx0r for its project naming. Tiger could be T1gg3r, but then they'd probably be sued by Disney (who, btw, totally screwed the estate of Milne out of millions.)
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
With all due respect, it's really not about what Microsoft *does*, it's about what they are implicitly *threatening to do* if Dell doesn't stay on board, i.e., charging them the full $200 per box. And that is more than a technicality, it's blackmail.
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
I just had an unusual thought on this... what if the judge himself is a mac user?
Then the lawyers will just have to speak slowly.
Slashdot has been sued by SCO for infringing on the trademark for all directories. Here is the SCO press release: /. refers to the directory you are currently viewing with most Unix shells, as everyone is well aware SCO owns unix, and everything to do with unix and as such Slashdot is infringing on a copyrighted directory.
Earlier today we filed suit against Slashdot.org for infringing on our intellectual property. 'slashdot' or
Bah... I think you're missing the point. Yes, companies should be able to protect their trademarked names from abuse. Yes, they may be at a disadvantage if they DON'T sue when appropriate opportunities arise to protect said name.
... not to try to steal customer-share from Tiger Direct!
.... but IMHO, that's simply not good enough. Tiger Direct is a *reseller*. They don't even make their own software or hardware. If someone WAS actually confused and thought they should shop for a copy of OS X Tiger via Tiger Direct, how would this hurt Tiger Direct in any way, shape or form? (Heck, they might end up selling them something else and getting a new customer out of the deal.)
*BUT*, this was a case where the threat of customer confusion was non-existant. Apple already had an established trend of using names of wild animals for each of their OS releases (Jaguar, Panther, etc.), and it's obvious they went with "Tiger" this time around simply to continue that trend
I'm sure Tiger Direct tried to argue that they were "both in the computer business!"
This isn't the same thing as, say, Apple's old lawsuit against "Orange Computer" - who was directly competing with Apple and trying to sell clones of their systems.
Tigerdirect sues Spiderman, the city of Detroit and Rudyard Kipling for similar use of the word.
.ca, right? Turns out all that means is they converted their prices to Canadian Dollars. That no-duty thing they advertised? Hah. I had to pay a $130 C.O.D. on the player when it showed up at my door because they shipped from Pennsylvania.
I used Tigerdirect.ca once for buying a Rio Karma. Never again. About a month after buying my Karma (20G HD mp3 player) it broke (nothing against td). So I call Tigerdirect for warranty information.
First of all, they changed their website so that it no longer advertised the 1 year warranty I saw when I purchased the player and changed it to 90 days (the same as the manufacturer's warranty), and disavowed any knowledge of this mythical 1 year warranty (one of the reasons I picked TD over others). They just tried to refer me back to the manufacturer.
So finally I say fine, take the 1-800 phone number.
Phone number doesn't work in Canada. The web page did say
So yeah, the toll free number doesn't work.
I call back Tigerdirect. Complain that the number they gave me doesn't work in Canada. So the buddy tells me that they'll get in touch with me about it.
That was a year and a fucking half ago. I still never heard back. Ultimately, after a week of waiting, I went to Rio's site, and after extensive digging I finally found a number in Toronto I could call. So I call Rio directly, they honour the warranty and in two months (ugh) I have a refurbished player. That one lasted a year (never buy Rio hard drive players, they suck. There's a reason iPods are more expensive).
Tigerdirect is a horrible company that is out there for the same reasons microsoft is: Make a cheap buck out of people who don't know any better.
Karma: Non-Heinous
Kipling?
Blake. I meant Blake.
Karma: Non-Heinous
Apple has done it before. They did it with Panther and Jaguar. When they first announced Tiger, they referred to it as Tiger, they had big banners that said Tiger, etc. If TigerDirect was truly taking this seriously as a real threat to their trademark value, they would've done enough research to find this out (it wouldn't have been hard). They were just looking for some easy money.
So what should they have done? Sued Apple in advance? Changed their name and made it hard for previous customers to find you. The ruling is clearly correct as far as Trademark law is concerned. TigerDirect customers are not going to get confused and start buying things from Apple that they previously bought from TigerDirect. People are not going to be calling up TigerDirect and complaining about problems with Apple products. Still, TigerDirect used to come up at the top of a Google search for Tiger, and now they don't. A high Google rank can have considerable value. TigerDirect was clearly hoping the court would broaden Trademark law to cover this, but the court declined to do so. What it comes down to is that where web searches are concerned, a big company like Apple is the 600 pound canary. If they happen to announce a product that knocks your company off of the first Google search page, you are just SOL.
Made even better because Tiger Direct happens to be advertising at the top of the page. Snide partisan commentary can only be improved when it is simultaneously biting the hand that feeds it.
P.
free music
Do you know what a question mark is!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
That was part of it, the other part was BeOS was incomplete and largely broken -- it had significant design flaws and would require far too much work to fix it and get it to do what apple wanted, while mach/bsd/etc met their needs nearly perfectly out of the box.
Ohhh man, I can't think of any better way to insure a dead apple than using java for cocoa. The complaints about OSX 10.0 being slow and unstable were legion -- and that was native binary objc and c. If it were java apple would have been dead -- nobody would have tolerated it.
:-)
Fortunately you do not design operating systems
Apple's got hell to pay from one Ms. Granny Delicious.
This page was generated by a Barrel of Circus Midgets, and that is the way I like it!!!
Be did so because they themselves were originally a hardware vendor, with PPC hardware. It was natural for them to shift over to another PPC hardware platform when they moved away from hardware to become an OS vendor. And Apple was a natural fit. BeOS was a staggering improvement in many regards over classic MacOS on the Apple hardware.
It was somewhat later that they competed with NeXT to be 'the next MacOS' after Apple's engineers proved incapable of producing an inhouse modern OS themselves.
I only have two data points - a friend and I have ordered various items from them - but I didn't detect anything unsavory, fraudulent, or even vaguely shitty about TigerDirect. Delivery seemed fairly prompt, and the items worked and were as advertised. So what do the rest of you know that I don't?
Note: I ordered from the Canadian side of the business.
Freedom: "I won't!"
I'm considering marketing apples (the fruit) from my orchard via the internet, and possibly have a small software package as an option.
... Ahhh, dontcha just love those top-level domains!
My company will be called AppleTiger.
Do you think TigerDirect may object?
- Tony the Tiger
http://www.tonyking.tk/
.
- aqk
F U
Exactly. Unfortuanetly this is an entertainment site with the byline "News for Nerds." However, people who notice this oddity shouldn't be harrased.
I dunno about harrassed, but I'm pretty sure they don't need to be modded up all the time. I'm just sayin'.
So it's an entertainment site that pretends to be a news site.
"News for Nerds" doesn't strike you as being intended with a bit of humor? No? Hmmm. Oh well, then.
I was ridiculing the idea that choosing a name is "IP".
Trademark maybe, IP, I don't think so.
I think if you are going to trade with something as common as "Apple" "Tiger" or "Windows" then you should EXPECT it to be used all over the place.
Come up with something unique like "iPod" or "Coca-cola" if you want to be able to trademark something.
The whole idea of being able to trademark common use terms is stupid.
Tigers(C) (Panthera tigris(R)) are mammals of the Felidae(TM) family, one of four "big cats"(R)(C) that belong to the Panthera(R) genus. Tigers(R) are "predatory carnivores"(TM)
You did not properly tag all of the existing trademarks you used. All of the following can be verified at the US Patent and Trademark website.
Panthera: serial number 78308042
Are: serial number 76529298
Mammal: serial number 75769435
Of: serial number 76165824
The: serial number 75726394
Family: serial number 78410485
One: serial number 78570482
Four: serial number 78450854
That: serial number 78270174
Be-long: serial number 78507203
To: serial number 76217768
Genus: serial number 78456711
What you should have written was:
Tigers(C) (Panthera(TM) tigris(R)) are(TM) mammal(TM)s of(TM) the(TM) Felidae(TM) family(TM), one(TM) of(TM) four(TM) "big cats"(R)(C) that(TM) belong(TM) to(TM) the(TM) Panthera(R) genus(TM). Tigers(R) are(TM) "predatory carnivores"(TM)
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Do you understand the concept of an "example"?
I think you missed my point but... thanks for agreeing with me ;-)
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry
I actually took care to preserve Blake's exact half rhyme. I may write feeble burlesques, but I do try to retain the scansion and rhyme schemes.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
...compiled Java exists in any number of places. Heck, Metrowerks had it eight years ago.
Replacing Objective C (a language) with Java (a language) and using them in the same way (compiling them into native machine code) wouldn't have caused problems.
If the entire OS were interpreted, okay. But remember, just because the current usual use case for Java is interpreted doesn't mean it must be.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
... would that be called logorhea?
Sean
Technocrat backup forum
Feel free to pass this on. I did a journal entry about this but obviously it didn't get around much.
snafu with his provider while he was vacationing, fixed soon, here is the temporary technocrat forum
Actually, Tiger Direct does sell Tiger branded computers.
So again, the only difference is that Apple happens to own the hardware they're force-bundling with. Big deal.
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
And that's entirely the point. Apple can bundle whatever they want with their own hardware - but Microsoft were forcing other companies to sell Windows. There's a world of difference.
And tomorrow the stock exchange will be the human race
See, the "forcing" thing seems a little excessive. I mean, did Bill send one of his minions to put a gun in Michael Dell's mouth? I was under the impression that this was a contract, not a deal orchestrated by Michael Corleone. And the effect on the customer is exactly the same--s/he pays for an operating system whether he wants it or not.
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
They didn't "prevent" in any normal sense of the word (such as when it was used above to describe the check for dr-dos in the pre-release of windows).
Apple failed to provide proprietary information and free engineering to Be.
There *is* a difference.
hawk
First Karma I got that went tits-up had a faulty hard drive that kicked out after two weeks.
My latest problem is that I can't charge the bugger. Plug it in, nothing happens. It sucks too because I've got this hard drive on there with a bunch of mp3s/oggs and my computer was recently stolen (yeah, I know, back up back up back up) so I've got a bunch of music on there I want to get off of it but can't.
Anybody here know of any home solutions? I'm out of warranty and don't mind opening her up if it'll fix the problem.
Karma: Non-Heinous