Vietnam Courts Microsoft and Vice Versa

wbren writes "Bill Gates and Vietnam's Prime Minister Phan Van Khai have signed two 'memoranda of understanding' regarding Microsoft's presence in Vietnam, according to this AP story. They met Monday at Microsoft's Redmond headquarters for a closed door meeting and a tour of Microsoft's "home of the future". The agreement reached is expected to strengthen Vietnam's IT industry, as well as provide software training for 50,000 of the country's teachers. Khai's visit also triggered protests in Seattle, reminding everyone of Vietnam's human rights record."

Comments

Further news...

[gowen]

Microsoft vice-president Lyndon Johnson was keen to point out that the first 21,000 people that MS have sent to Vietnam were not classified as salesmen, but are merely civilian "advisors".

Re:Further news...

[jcr]

Vice President Johnson was later seen lifting Steve Ballmer by his ears...

-jcr

Re:Further news...

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean MS President Kennedy. Why is it always forgetten that he entered the war as a "steam valve" for the region?

Re:Further news...

[gowen]

Well, I did know that, which is why I described LBJ as VP. I'd've said POTUS JFK but the CEO of MS is BG3.

Re:Further news...

[statemachine]

Thanks for remembering. People aren't taught that fact (the one you referenced) in class, nor is it hardly ever mentioned in documentaries. It is definitely not common knowledge.

My father was one of those "advisors." Long before the Gulf of Tonkin meant anything, my dad was participating in a hot war in Vietnam.

Some people would still argue with me.

BTW, Eisenhower sent in the first wave of troops, not Johnson.

no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, Americans compaining about other country's human rights records!

Re:no sense of irony

[koi88]

No protests in Ho-Chi-Minh-City yet about America's human rights record ?

Re:no sense of irony

[jcr]

Americans, like anyone else, are perfectly entitled to criticise any country's human rights record.

People whose rights are violated in the USA, unlike many other countries, have recourse to a free press and the courts; which is more than can be said for the Socialist Worker's Paradise of Vietnam.

-jcr

Re:no sense of irony

[Xoro]

Wow, Americans compaining about other country's human rights records!

Well, it's the West Coast and all -- do you reckon the protesters could have been Vietnamese? Let's check google...

Vietnamese Americans from around the Northwest are expected to protest tomorrow's history-making visit by Vietnam's prime minister, who will tour a Boeing plant and appear at a noon news conference at the Fairmont Olympic Hotel, Seattle.

"You're going to expect to see a large crowd," said Sai Nguyen of the Vietnamese American Coalition in Northwest America, adding that 500 to 1,000 people might attend rallies at the downtown Federal Building and at the hotel.

Wow, a bunch of refugees mouthing off about their birthplace. How dare they!

Re:no sense of irony

[dominiv]

have recourse to a free press and the courts

yeah, right...

Re:no sense of irony

[jcr]

If you've been beaten up for talking to a reporter, do tell.

-jcr

Re:no sense of irony

[guet]

People whose rights are violated in the USA, unlike many other countries, have recourse to a free press and the courts; which is more than can be said for the Socialist Worker's Paradise of Vietnam.

Actually I'm sorry to say that people just don't have those rights any more in the US. They can be imprisoned without knowing why, their lawer isn't allowed to talk about the charges, they can be deported to third countries for torture or just thrown out of the country (see recent case of an Iranian teenager) or they can be shipped off to someplace like Guantanamo Bay where you have exactly zero rights and are very deliberately dehumanized. Now you can argue about the justification for this if you like, but the US would rank well below Canada and many European countries (just for example) in a scale of civil rights or freedom right now.

Your point about it being quite possible for US citizens to criticise other nations is spot on though, whatever their govt. is doing.

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes indeed, prisoners at Abu Grabe, Bagram Airport and Camp X-Ray have easy access to Fox news reporters, what *was* the OP thinking!

Re:no sense of irony

[rsynnott]

MANY European nations? ;) Are you counting Bellorus as European or something?...

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

You expect someone whose rights have been quashed to all of a sudden have the unimpeded right to talk about it?

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. In fact, you should conclude the opposite -- if someone was beaten up for talking to a reporter, or imprisoned without notice, you would also assume that they are also being prevented from talking about it.

Seriously, what the hell are you thinking?

Sure, the human rights violations might not be as bad as some other countries in the world, but that hardly means that no violations occur. Hell, it's not even possible to know what the hell is going on in Guantanamo since they won't allow in independent overseers.

Or do you just trust the military, government and system implicitly? If that's the case, well, I hate to break it to you, historically speaking, they haven't proven themselves trustworthy at all. Even in the U.S..

Re:no sense of irony

[geoffrobinson]

It's only ironic to those who classify too much AC in a movie theater as a gulag. Or McDonald's stopping breakfast at 11AM.

Re:no sense of irony

[imogthe]

I'm certain you are aware of Guantanamo bay then: Varying degrees of discomfort and a distinct lack of trials, courts, press and the like.
Oh... I forgot... that place is not on American soil.. just run by the American government. That changes everything

Now, I am fully aware that, as with any country, America is made up of a plethora of different ideas and opinions. I am also certain that many americans were quite upset with the entire Guantanamo thing and would rather not have anything to do with it. But I'm sure you can see the irony of americans demonstrating agains human rights abuse, when the US has been accused of shipping people abroad for torture. (I can't remember whether this accusation actually led to anything though)

You know the words: stones, glass house, throwing. Some assembly required:)

Re:no sense of irony

[ExtraT]

... or they can be shipped off to someplace like Guantanamo Bay where you have exactly zero rights and are very deliberately dehumanized.

And again with the Horrible GULag of Guantanamo Bay.
Tell me, how many US citizens can you name that have been shipped there?
And, in general, can't you people give it a rest already? Guantanamo Bay is a POW camp, plain and simple. POW camps are not pretty, but they are necessary in times of war.

Re:no sense of irony

[marsu_k]

Guantanamo Bay is a POW camp, plain and simple.

Really? How is it then that the detainees haven't been granted POW status?

Re:no sense of irony

[jocknerd]

Not really. There are prisoners in a military jail in Norfolk who the gov't has labeled as terrorists and they have no access to lawyers. Some of them have been in jail for over a year with no charges against them at all. See this article:
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?sto ry=87136&ran=93787

Re:no sense of irony

[jcr]

You do go on and on with your unfounded speculation as to my position, don't you?

-jcr

Re:no sense of irony

[jcr]

Actually I'm sorry to say that people just don't have those rights any more in the US.

Actually, we always have our rights. Violence infringes our rights, it does not cause them not to exist.

-jcr

Re:no sense of irony

[jcr]

They may not have access to reporters, but they're sure getting a lot of press. QED.

-jcr

Re:no sense of irony

[magarity]

Americans compaining about other country's human rights records

Yeah, the same Americans who 35 years ago were protesting the US's attempt to keep the communists from taking over Vietnam are now complaining that said communists are running a repressive regime.

Re:no sense of irony

[elrous0]

Tell me, how many US citizens can you name that have been shipped there?

U.S. citizens are being held in other detainment facilities across the country with a similar "no legal rights status". Here in South Carolina, there is one being held at the Charleston naval base.

As for how many other citizens are being held across the country or at Gitmo. We have no idea.

Why? Because the government refuses to tell us.

-Eric

Re:no sense of irony

[elrous0]

Not really. There are prisoners in a military jail in Norfolk who the gov't has labeled as terrorists and they have no access to lawyers.

Ditto here in SC, at the Charleston Naval Base. And he's a U.S. citizen, no less.

-Eric

Re:no sense of irony

[magarity]

How is it then that the detainees haven't been granted POW status?

Why do you bother to ask when the link you've given spells it out in plain English?!?

I recommend everyone babbling about inhumane treatment read that link; see esp. the list of what all detainees are being provided daily. Compare with treatment of Americans captured in Iraq. Note that "Heads sawed off with knives" is not on the GB prisoner's list.

Re:no sense of irony

[rben]

Actually, it isn't ironic at all. I'm one of those Americans who protests human rights abuses of other countries. I also protest the ones committed by my own government. I didn't vote for this administration and I have done what I could to make my voice heard through letters and email to my legislative representatives.

What is ironic, is when President Bush or Ms. Rice makes accusations about human rights abuses, not when U.S. citizens who honestly deplore what our own government has been doing do so.

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you know the answer, but i will indulge you anyways. They were not granted POW status becauase they were not uniformed combatants. They are terrorists and saboteurs. Guantanamo Bay is just an example of the new and unique 21st century touchy-feely form of warfare. Rather than summarily executing these individuals,as would likely have been done in any pre-Vietnam conflict, we have chosen to be "humane" and "warehouse" them at Gitmo instead. This compromise exposes the United States to apparently never ending criticism from the U.N. worshiping socialist crowd. The very same crowd who failed, for 50 years, to criticize the Soviets for their gulags, still consider communism a "noble experiment" (although they've relabeled it progressivism and conveniently forgotten the fact that it is the social system that led to the murder of ~100 million human beings last century), scream bloody murder when the Koran is "mishandled", yet -under their breath- suggest that the thousands of businessmen and women killed on 9/11 were complicit in "globalization" and cautiously imply that their deaths might be justifiable "on some level."

Re:no sense of irony

[1u3hr]

Yeah, the same Americans who 35 years ago were protesting the US's attempt to keep the communists from taking over Vietnam are now complaining that said communists are running a repressive regime.

Actually, the Americans compalaining about the Vietnam govt in this instance are mostly Vietnam-born, mostly form the South I'd guess. So no irony there I'm afraid.

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

People whose rights are violated in the USA, unlike many other countries, have recourse to a free press and the courts; which is more than can be said for the Socialist Worker's Paradise of Vietnam.

Actually I'm sorry to say that people just don't have those rights any more in the US. They can be imprisoned without knowing why, their lawer isn't allowed to talk about the charges, they can be deported to third countries for torture or just thrown out of the country (see recent case of an Iranian teenager) or they can be shipped off to someplace like Guantanamo Bay where you have exactly zero rights and are very deliberately dehumanized. Now you can argue about the justification for this if you like, but the US would rank well below Canada and many European countries (just for example) in a scale of civil rights or freedom right now.

You don't think that Americans have these rights? Tell you what, put a chinese citizen on a TV show and have him on a daily basis bash the president and show every single fault and see what happens to him. Have someone in vietname write in their blog about all the things they find wrong with their government. In this country if the powers that be break the law, then they get put on trial. What do you think would happen if the leader of Vietnam got on TV and executed someone for his people to see and said "I did this because I can"? Do you think he would go on trial? Now what would happen if the American president did it? Most people that bash the American society that live in the American society don't realize how good we have it here. And if they hate it so whey do they stay? I'm not one to say "go home" to anyone, but I am definitely of the type not to stay somewhere that I don't like being.

Guess what, if your rights in this country are being violated it's because you are allowing them to be violated. There are so many forms of fighting back that can be done. There are courts, protests,press, so many different forms of fighting back peacefully. The problem is that no one wants to take an active part in their government. They want to sit back and listen to what everyone says and agree like the sheep they are. They vote for people based off what color they are, or what they look like, how their hair looks, oh look I have a wife with a dog, instead of what their political agenda is. We have senators that have year in year out brought ruin to this country, but because their states are doing well no one cares what they are doing to the country.

How dare you trample the freedoms that so many have died for..

Re:no sense of irony

[suitepotato]

Not a flame here. I want to know. Show us solid examples of this happening on an every day basis and not of foreign nationals without clearance to be here, people who violated the terms of their visas, etc. Show where a natural born American citizen who has not been engaged in terrorism or linked to it has been sent to Guantanamo.

Pure FUD. If it weren't, you would not have been allowed to make your post and have been arrested and sent off to some mythical gulag by now.

I suggest calming down and getting a grip. BTW, for those of you who are in tinfoil hat FUD land, Microsoft isn't sending people in black helicopters to install Windows on your Linux boxes either.

The volume of dissent and paranoid fear mongering is inversely proportional to the level of civil rights in any given place. IOW, you don't hear this talk in Vietnam, because they'd shoot you in the head and be done with it before you spat out more than a few sentences.

Re:no sense of irony

[OreoCookie]

Uhmm.. Bullshit. US citizens rights are fully intact. The POW's at Guantanamo are not US citizens. Have you forgotten "The American Taliban" fighter John Walker Lindh who, even though he was found on the battlefield in Afganistan, was afforded full access to lawyers and the courts in the US and who is now serving his time in a US prison? And why is it that the parent doesn't get modded Off Topic but this reply will be?

Re:no sense of irony

[koi88]

Actually, we always have our rights. Violence infringes our rights, it does not cause them not to exist.

You want to say: "Don't worry, in theory you still have you rights."
That probably doesn't help those people who spend years in prison in the US and other places who have no possibility to go to court.

If the government is so sure the prisoners in Guantanamo are terrorists, why aren't they brought to trial?

Doesn't the American government trust the American legal system? How is it possible the executive branch can do that? What happened to the separation of powers?

This post is going to cost a lot of Karma, I know...

Re:no sense of irony

[koi88]

Show where a natural born American citizen who has not been engaged in terrorism or linked to it has been sent to Guantanamo.

Don't you think this should be a court's task, to determine whether somebody is or is not linked to terrorism and what the punishment should be?

Is it right that an army officer who doesn't even speak the other person's language decides on somebody else's future by saying: "I believe he is connected in terrorism, let's send him to Guantanamo." I know officers. I wouldn't let them decide on anything but the color of their cars.

I believe a fair trial is every person's right, American or not.
"The land of the free"... because everybody else is granted no freedom?

Re:no sense of irony

[LifesABeach]

A person listens to a conversation that involves a combination of murder, theft, and fraud. What is the "right" action to do? It is clear that there are bad people on both sides of the Al Kida platforum. What I find even more troubling are people that would profit in the name of the Profit.

Re:no sense of irony

[jcr]

You want to say: "Don't worry, in theory you still have you rights."

No, I said what I wanted to say. Rights are rights, and their infringment doesn't negate them. The Japanese Americans who were put in concentration camps by Roosevelt's regime were eventually able to obtain redress in court, because their rights still exist.

The important point here, is that governments do not create rights. People create governments to secure our rights. When governments fail in that duty, then it's time to throw them out, and institute a new government in place of the one that failed. (Ex: the American Revolution, the English Civil War, the Armed Struggle against Apartheid, etc.)

-jcr

Re:no sense of irony

[superyooser]

You expect someone whose rights have been quashed to all of a sudden have the unimpeded right to talk about it? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. In fact, you should conclude the opposite

Yes, yes indeed. Makes you wonder how we hear so many tales of torture and abuse coming out of Gitmo. You'd think they'd all be dead or shut up in dungeons never to be heard from again.

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Just becuase the prisoners are being accounted for does not mean there are violations of human rights not occuring. America is smarter than just to blatantly kill their prisoners - they can torture them and leave them alive.

The fact that many released Gitmo prisoners are telling tales of disturbing treatment does warrant looking at.

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

I like how Americans - the supposed defenders of justice and liberty - are free to label everyone caught and detained at Gitmo as "terrorist scum" who do not deserve a fair trial, fair treatment, rights, or anything that Americans themselves claim to stand for.

The hypocrisy of America is deafening. The policy towards detainees is "guilty as charged" as a justification for not treating them fairly. Each time another knee-jerk American yells "but they are murdering terrorist scum", you have to wonder how long the same Americans will defend our current innocent before proven guility legal system here at home. Pretty soon trials will occur not in a court of law but in a court of public opinion - if you don't like a group of people, they will see the noose, whether they are guility of any crimes or not.

Sounds sort of like the modern incarnation of the lynch mob.

Re:no sense of irony

[frank_adrian314159]

What is ironic, is when President Bush or Ms. Rice makes accusations about human rights abuses...

It's not ironic.

It's hypocritical.

Get the terminology right, people...

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Your stupidity, ignorance, and outright anti-American bigotry is deafening. ;)

Re:no sense of irony

[GypC]

They're not American citizens and are not entitled to a civil trial anymore than a captured Nazi would have been 60 years ago. They have already been found guilty by a military tribunal; to have these trials publically would jeopardize the lives of our intelligence operatives.

They are illegal combatants. Do you understand what this means? They are not protected by the Geneva convention. Why? Because they don't wear uniforms. Why is this so bad? Because uniforms are the way armies protect their people; they say "We're the ones to shoot at, please don't shoot at those other people, they are just civilians." To betray the innocent by hiding among them is the among the basest of all war crimes, second only to their favorite passtime of actively blowing up innocent people to incite terror.

These people are the lowest of all scum, and Gitmo is much better than they deserve.

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I find it ironic that those in the EU make this claim in online forums everywhere.
They seem to forget ever since man chiseled in stone a history of the world, that they have systematically raped, pillaged, tortured and murdered the rest of the world. Often they point out the plight of the American Indian, when in fact the Brits took over the east coast, the Spanish took from what is now Florida across to and up the west coast and south into Central America, and the French took Canada and south down into what is now Louisiana. Americans of today either took or purchased it from what are now EU members, after they stole everything that wasn't nailed down. The EU members didn't stop with America either they systematically raped, robbed, pillaged, tortured and murdered, Asia, Africa, Central America etc. I submit to you all that not one Euro in the EU hasn't been stolen from someone else. They're no Gold, Diamond, Oil or any other precious mineral deposits in the EU except coal, yet they are among the richest nations in the world.

Re:no sense of irony

[2short]

I do not believe we ought to wait until it is happening on an every day basis before getting worked up about it.

Jose Padilla is an American citizen. He has been in prison for three years now. He has not been charged with anything; no evidence against him has been presented. He has been "linked to" terrorism only to the extent that the executive branch has said he is. No evidence has been presented supporting this, because, according to the administration, they can imprison him indefinitely based entirely on their say-so, without involving the courts in any way.

Note that I am not suggesting that Padilla is a nice guy, or that I know he is innocent. In fact, I know basically nothing of the facts of his case, as they have never been presented. Please do not tell me "But he's a terrorist!", because the only reason you think so is because the administration says so. They've been quite happy to say so in front of the press, and entirely unwilling to say so under oath in front of a Judge.

Imprisoning him in this manner is not legal. The Constitution is not vauge on this point. The fifth amendment says:
"No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law ..."
You can look it up yourself, but I assure you that my elipsis above do not exclude a clause that says "Unless you use the magic 't' word".

I think you meant that the level of dissent is directly proportional to the level of civil rights, as opposed to inversely. In any case, you seem to imply that having strong civil rights causes loud protests from people who think those rights are in danger. I suggest to you that the causitive relationship goes the other way.

As far as the poster who suggested the US should not be criticizing Vietnams human rights record, obviously he has little sense of proportion, or little idea of the state of human rights in Vietnam. Human rights are in much better shape in the US. But to you I say, I like it that way, so I'm sure as hell going to get pissed about the wholesale elimination of those rights currently taking place.

The US Constitution, the treaties we have signed, and our laws are not general guidelines. They are strict rules. They are all that protect our freedom from a slow slide into totalitarianism. Even if these rules are inconvenient, allowing the administration to simply ignore them is dangerous. The actual ignoring itself is illegal, and should be the subject of criminal prosecution.

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

> Note that "Heads sawed off with knives" is not on the GB prisoner's list.

Ah, special pleading and appeal to emotion all in one. Let me know when any of that actually justifies dismantling our human rights record.

Re:no sense of irony

[snorklewacker]

> They are illegal combatants. Do you understand what this means?

Yes, anyone the president says is. The whole notion of "illegal combatant" has zero basis in law.

> These people are the lowest of all scum, and Gitmo is much better than they deserve.

Because they're all guilty, right? Who says so? Here's a clue for ya: camp x-ray is considered a HOLDING facility. Not a prison. See if a thought begins to percolate in your brain regarding that fact.

But hey, I guess all the other jihadists are going to say "oh dear, we better not try anything, they're holding a couple hundred folks in that awful place". So we're all safe. Go ahead and take your fucking blue pill now.

Re:no sense of irony

[halltk1983]

An essay on why this is bad, written by someone much more eloquent than I shall ever be.

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the matter, not one of you EU wanker's want to dispute the FACT that your responsible for 99.999% of the world's woe's.
Based on recorded history, your Imperial Expansionism, Religious Intolerance, and Greed are without compare.

Re:no sense of irony

[good soldier svejk]

Not wearing a uniform does not automatically make you an unlawful combatant. In the first place, the Geneva Conventions do not mention uniforms. The Third Convention mentions "a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance." More importantly, citizens have a right to defend their country, regardless of their military status or appearance. Article four, section A of the Third Geneva Convention specifically defines such resistors as lawful combatants,

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

Regardless, I find your position on guerrilla warfare shockingly simplistic. You are saying that the Jewish, Polish, Russian etc. partisans who resisted the Nazi attempt to eradicate their entire ethnicities were "the basest of all war criminals." On behalf of all my dead partisan relatives, I am offended. Furthermore, I don't see how either of us could know enough about the individual prisoners at Guantanamo to determine the propriety of their legal status. And lastly, even if every single prisoner is not a legal combatant entitled to POW status, that does not mean they are devoid of rights under the Conventions. The Fourth Convention states that they are entitled to "humane treatment" and in the case of criminal allegations, a "fair trial."

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

BS, If you have NO clue about the Viet Nam's history, or anything do not speak. You're only making a fool of yourself. Human Rights, what a joke. Over a million Vietnamese babies and children are afflicted with Agent Orange in VN. Did you ever wonder why the Buddhist monks burned themselves in Saigon? Do you understand anything about buddhism? What unsurmountable pressure and circumstances caused them to do that?

Please, think before you speak.

Re:no sense of irony

[jcr]

An even more important question is, how come the USA hasn't declared war on anyone since 1941? There's a reason why the power to declare war was reserved to the congress in the constitution.

-jcr

Re:no sense of irony

[GypC]

No, sir. They are illegal combatants as defined by the Geneva convention you're always whining about.

I've already told you already who says they're guilty. They've all been judged by a military tribunal.

Re:no sense of irony

[GypC]

Except that they do not carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. They use civilians as shields and cover, or just blow them up to make some kind of sick statement.

They are very well treated for the most part. They are well fed and clothed, given Korans and oils and arrows to Mecca and calls to prayer...

Yes, they are sometimes subjected to lengthy interrogations in an effort to save innocent lives. Sometimes they are extremely uncomfortable during these interrogations. Under no circumstances are they beaten, burned, electrocuted, or maimed as they often do to their own prisoners.

Re:no sense of irony

[snorklewacker]

> No, sir. They are illegal combatants as defined by the Geneva convention you're always whining about.

Search the convention. You'll find it nowhere.

I would just write you off as a troll, but dumbfuck trolls like you are responsible for murdering thousands and enraging the rest of the world, who will no doubt cheer all the louder when the next plane hits.

Re:no sense of irony

[GypC]

Art. 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

...

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

...

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

You are the troll. You are also an ignorant lout who's kneejerk anti-Americanism is nothing more than boutique politics.

Re:no sense of irony

[HuguesT]

Some clarifications,

The Geneva convention does define what "unlawful combattants" are but goes on to say that

Even if there is doubt about how such people should be classified (as POW or to be set free), article 5 insists that they "shall enjoy the protection of the present convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal"

Read the reference

There hasn't been any trial in Guantanamo Bay yet.

Those trials have been announced for a long time but none have taken place yet.

Re:no sense of irony

[good soldier svejk]

Except that they do not carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. They use civilians as shields and cover, or just blow them up to make some kind of sick statement.

I don't understand. To my knowledge these were combatants captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan, not car bombers caught attacking civilian targets. You'll have to be more specific in your allegations. Otherwise your argument is weak. The ICRC says that they qualify as POWs under the Geneva accords. More importantly, under the Geneva accords, a party to conflict can't unilaterally declare combatants illegal. Combatant status disputes are settled by international tribunal. Geneva specifically protected informal combatants in response to Germany's wartime policy of torture, execution and collective punishment for "terrorism" (which is what they called guerrilla warfare).

Again, you make a great deal of the criminality of the guerrilla fish swimming in the civilian water (to paraphrase Mao). This is the reality of asymmetric warfare. It is what allows the weak to resist the strong. It is what allowed Jews and Poles to resist the Germans (who fully intended to exterminate them all). As Larbi Ben M'Hidi told a reporter shortly before French paratroopers murdered him in his cell,"Of course, if we had your airplanes it would be a lot easier for us. Give us your bombers, and you can have our baskets."

Re:no sense of irony

[some guy I know]

You don't think that Americans have these rights? Tell you what, put a chinese citizen on a TV show and have him on a daily basis bash the president and show every single fault and see what happens to him.

The fact that you are reduced to saying "The USA's human rights record is better than China's." is a sad indication of how far our rights have been eroded.
Similarly, Charles Manson didn't murder as many people as Ted Bundy.
Hitler's human rights record was better than Stalin's.
And the USA's human rights record is better than China's.
Yes, what a ringing endorsement that is.

Re:no sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Just remember, those ragheads are being beaten and tortured for AMERICA.

Yay America.

Re:no sense of irony

[GypC]

They are not being beaten.

If you consider sleep deprivation, uncomfortable (but not dangerous) temperatures, light shoving and chest poking with a finger, shouting mean things, loud rap music, and scantily clad yet domineering female interrogators torture, then you are incredibly naive. Mind you, these techniques are only employed during the occasional interrogation, not on a daily basis.

Well, the loud rap music may be cruel and unusual, but the rest sounds a heck of a lot better than, say, boot camp in the Marines.

Re:This being America....

[gmac63]

.... and it wasn't a war, it was a "Police Action" (or so they'll have you think).

Future partnership for MS?

[SysKoll]

I suggest MS should look into a alliance with the somewhat misunderstood government of Zimbabwe, which is currently writing a whole new chapter in the human right violation book.

I mean, if you start buttering up the worst tyrants of the planet, you shouldn't stop at puny Vietnam, right?

And again

[FidelCatsro]

MS forces its way into another market with pay-offs completely ignoring the countries Human Rights abuses . You know they could of leveraged their position a little for some good , since they are going to be giving them a lot of software , they could of asked politely that they try to clean up their human rights record a little. You then get a PR coup for MS and the Vietnamese officials and a victory for people.
That's just dreaming though , Admittedly companies have no need to do anything like this , it would be nice if they did though

Re:And again

[Anonymous Coward]

What is this "could of" expression you keep using? What does it mean?

Re:And again

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it has something to do with "countries Human Rights abuses"

The countries karma whoring could of been modded up.

Re:And again

[gowen]

perfectly grammatically correct

It's grammatically correct. The only problem is, it doesn't mean what you think it does (if it means anything at all).

"Could've" is fine, and correct, and actually means something.

"I could of died", is the conditional of "I of died", which is meaningless.

Re:And again

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you're suggesting "of" is an action, the answer is no, they can't. Also spaces are not generally put between a word and the punctuation mark that follows it, but are generally put after punctuation marks. Your comments would be a million times more readable if you just followed those two simple typing/typesetting conventions.

And don't come back saying "Wah wah wah, I'm Scottish, that's how we do it" because I've met perfectly literate Scots before. It's not some genetic thing, it's just laziness on your part.

Re:And again

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't grammatically correct. The poster could have said "could have" or "could've" an oft used and acceptable contraction. But, when writing it in full he mis-translated the aural contraction "'ve" to "of" and wrote "could of" rather than the correct "could have".
Really though it's no big sin - he didn't piss in anyones beer.

Re:And again

[Anonymous Coward]

The words "could" and "of" most certainly can not "logically be placed together". What is logical about the phrase "I could of had another slice of cake."?

The only people who believe that "could of" is logical or grammatically correct are those who have absorbed too much Hooked on Phonics and believe that words are always spelled as they are pronounced. These people then go on to spell common English words and phrases in their own accent, flattening and elongating letters and syllables as required until it "sounds right". Thus we get ridiculous words and phrases such as

• "could of" instead of "could have"
• "studdering" instead of "stuttering" and many other forms of swapping "t" for "d"
• People actually writing "y'awl"
• All sorts of other complete nonsense

I am constantly amazed that some people can take the greatest communications medium man has ever known and use to communicate so poorly that even other native speakers have difficulty understanding what a person is trying to say. When did it become O.K. to talk like a brain addled drug addict, mumbling and typo-ing your way through life? How about non-native English speakers, who have to expand more energy than should be required to decipher someone elses poorly spelled, poorly constructed sentences? They have been taught correct English and know how to the language correctly; they're at a distinct disadvantage when "the innernet" is infested with lazy, sloppy idiots who can't spell and don't care.

Re:And again

[Anonymous Coward]

You left out:

• for all intensive purposes

Re:And again

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, sad proof is the parent defending this idiocy with even more ridiculous punctuation and the grand-parent being modded as flamebait.

Way to go, morons.

Re:And again

[magarity]

You then get a PR coup for MS and the Vietnamese officials

You seem innocently naive of southeast Asian politics. A foriegn company asking for human rights improvements would be a HUGE insult to said Vietnamese officials. They'd probably go home and kick a few peasants just for spite.

Re:And again

[FidelCatsro]

I've just been doing a large amount of reading concerning the Sino conflicts and history of the region since the opium wars and cheerfully retract the statement(as well as a bit of reading about the history of split from china ).

Re:And again

[1u3hr]

You know they could of leveraged their position a little for some good , since they are going to be giving them a lot of software

Vietnam already has all the MS software they could want. What this is doing is legitimizing it, as MS did recently by "selling" 50,000 licences to the govt of Indonesia for bootleg software they were already running. Most likely the US govt has been leaning on them, and as Vietnam now exports a lot to the US, (I just heard that the US is Vietnam's largest trading partner now, probably for textiles and shoes) they had to pay attention or face trade sanctions.

Heh

[kahei]

Weird, because previously the Vietnamese were known for their choice of light, modifiable systems that proved very effective against monolithic, bloated American engineering.

Now it'll be the other way around -- take that, Charlie!

Re:Heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Who has the cheapest productive labor? Vietnam, China, or India?. Great, 50,000 jobs go offshore, so one can be played off against the other, but they won't be Washington based. Forget the teachers line, this is a sneaker operation about banging out lines of code cheaply, and to put a lid on domestic 'costs'.
The beauty about such deals, are the subsidies paid to the host to set up shop there, until North Korea comes online and undercuts, and proves it can really 'fix' XP good.

Re:Heh

[MoralHazard]

You don't know, man! You weren't THERE!

Re:Heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh, it's Communism I tell you.

-Coming from a Vietnamese geek who's not a communist.

Re:Heh

[NitsujTPU]

Why do you bother with that jBrowse product then, rather than using some web browser made in a different country.

For that matter, why are you using IE if you hate MS so much?

Re:What will become of this...?

[gowen]

Windows VC is just another name for Windows ME.

Because if you buy it, you end up looking a right Charlie.

Right ..

[torpor]

.. and, what better way to bring tyrants down than to have them using Microsoft software, right?

I mean, sure. Tyrants need computing too. No reason they should be allowed to use Free/Open Source Software to do their repression...

Re:Right ..

[tomhudson]

Hey, this is a *Good Thing*. Think of it - hopefully the Vietnam KrazieGuys^W Leaders will insist on upgrading their launch control systems to Longhorn ... and trying to get them to run on their coal-burning 8088 PCs.

We may actually end up with a live re-enactment of that scene in South Park where the general says "Get me Bill Gates" ... and shoots him ... win-win all around.

Re:Right ..

[dagr8tim]

Isn't it more of a case that MS is trying to undermine the competition?

Re:Right ..

[FidelCatsro]

If they do get the nukes running on windows , lets just hope they do as a lot of MS programs do and call home

Horrific

[Anonymous Coward]

As if the US hadn't already done enough terrible things to this country. ;-D

Joke aside, I don't really see the relevance of the story. MS has relationships with many governments, that the Vietnamese governemnt is now also among them doesn't strike me as exceptional.

Finally, I also don't understand what mentioning the human rights situation in Vietnam has to do with this article. Don't get me wrong, pointing this situation out is important, but why in this context?

MS and other big software houses do frequently deal with nations that have a very bad track record when it comes to human rights. (And in case you didn't notice, free software does too. Just think about China using Linux). So I again have to ask: What's the news?

Re:Horrific

[I confirm I'm not a]

I'm not so much disagreeing (I agree with much of your argument), just picking up on your comments about Linux being used in places with poor human rights records: a central tenet of the GPL (and some other free software licenses) is that *no*restrictions* be placed on where the software is used. This sounds absurd, until you recall South Africa: I believe that there's still software kicking around that technically can't be used in South Africa "because of Apartheid".

Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code, but I'm prepared to sacrifice that in order that $REFORMED_DEMOCRACY can use the same code *in*the*future*.

Re:Horrific

[rsynnott]

But who'd make the call who was a human rights violator? Would the US's torturers in Guantanamo and Iraq be counted (yes, it is torture. It's torture as defined by the UN, EU, and even the Israeli supreme court)?

Re:Horrific

[I confirm I'm not a]

But who'd make the call who was a human rights violator?

Well, I'd argue - from a free-software POV - that no-one should. I might personally prefer it if, say, the US DoD was prevented from using my (hypothetical) software package, but how do I put that into the license? Do I have exceptions for humanitarian operations? Who decides?

So, much as I hate it, I feel it's better if free software licenses *don't* prohibit entire countries from using them.

Re:Horrific

[Peter La Casse]

Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code

If somebody's willing to violate someone else's human rights, then they're probably willing to violate someone else's copy rights.

Re:Horrific

[1u3hr]

Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code, but I'm prepared to sacrifice that in order that $REFORMED_DEMOCRACY can use the same code *in*the*future*.

I recently found some software AiR-Boot that was briefly GPL, but since the invasion of Iraq the author changed the terms and now says "You may only use this software, if you are NOT and were NEVER working for american (US) government at any time", also moving it from a US to a Russian server.

Re:Horrific

[I confirm I'm not a]

I think this highlights the problem with being dogmatic on licenses: how many "good" (subjective) people once worked for the US government, and - for whatever reason - don't anymore? This license explicity bars them from using AiR-Boot. I'd go further and say there are "good" (there's that word again...) people *still* working for the US government. Hell, the US government is more than just the Whitehouse and the DoD. What about aid projects? The US Geological Survey? The National parks Service?

Re:Horrific

[Anonymous Coward]

Business, like IBM did with Germany in the 30's and 40's?
What is it with yankees that they don't seem to understand that trade means selling THINGS you make, not necessarily teaching others to make those products, at the expense of your own population.

Exporting raw materials, lumber, farm products is what colonies are/were for. I am not proud that the US supplies half of all the world's weapons, high tech there, but it does not make friends. Now we even loose the fertilizer manufacturing because natural gas is too expensive in the US.

Re:Horrific

[1u3hr]

I think this highlights the problem with being dogmatic on licenses

It also shows that putting pressure on governments rarely affects those who make hte decsions you disagree with; as for instance the sanctions against Iran after 1991 killed many children leaving Saddam's fat from black marketeering.

Re:Horrific

[John Newman]

Joke aside, I don't really see the relevance of the story. MS has relationships with many governments, that the Vietnamese governemnt is now also among them doesn't strike me as exceptional.

Finally, I also don't understand what mentioning the human rights situation in Vietnam has to do with this article. Don't get me wrong, pointing this situation out is important, but why in this context?

This is an actual current-events story that somehow made it onto /.. It's was one of the top local stories yesterday, and even got a bit of play nationally. The story was:
a) Vietnamese PM stops in Seattle for a day on his way to DC
b) meets with Boeing and MS execs to talk trade, because he wants their help in lobbying Bush to support Vietnam's entry into the WTO
c) local human rights advocates - and much of the (sizable) Seattle Vietnamese community - protested his every move in Seattle

There. It's not exeptional or striking, it's just what happened. [shrug] I suppose it's not every day that a foreign head of government visits Seattle and kowtows to local business leaders. That seems like news. I think it is interesting, that of all the places in the US to visit before hitting the White House, the PM chose Boeing and MS in Seattle.

Re:Horrific

[1u3hr]

Stupd typos, sorry:
It also shows that putting pressure on governments rarely affects those who make the decisions you disagree with; as for instance the sanctions against Iraq after 1991 killed many children leaving Saddam's fat from black-marketeering.

M$: We had to destroy Vietnam to save it

[Anonymous Coward]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Minnie Rosoft

[EzInKy]

I courted Mike Rosoft's sister Minnie for a while. She sure was pretty to look at but turned all shades of blue anytime I suggested trying something new.

Had to dump her in the end though because she was simply the most vain and jealous woman I'd ever met...always wanted to monopolize everything.

Re:Minnie Rosoft

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this deserves a: (Score:+i, Weird)

Re:Minnie Rosoft

[elrous0]

I courted Mike Rosoft's sister Minnie for a while. She sure was pretty to look at but turned all shades of blue anytime I suggested trying something new.

Yeah, but on the bright side, she was always going down on you.

-Eric

ahem...

[maeddi]

http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=usa

Re:ahem...

[jcr]

While you're at it: let's see Vietnam's record as well.

Re:ahem...

[rsynnott]

Yep, but Vietnam doesn't PRETEND to have decent human rights. Hmm, wonder what a "substandard prison camp" is? Is guantanamo?

Re:ahem...

[jcr]

Yep, but Vietnam doesn't PRETEND to have decent human rights.

Oh, yes they do. Pretense is right at the top of the list of activities for any government, and the commies are no exception.

-jcr

Does this mean...

[16K Ram Pack]

... that Charlie will surf, and with Internet Explorer?

Re:Does this mean...

[dedeman]

Hey, if Bill Gates says it's safe to surf with IE, it's safe to surf with IE!

Now, do you want to surf or fight?

Discussions went something like this:

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft: Hey, you got operating system, Vietnam? We love you long time!
Vietnam: What do we get for ten dollars?
Microsoft: Everything you want!
Vietnam: Everything?
Microsoft: Everything!

No hard feelings.

[delire]

Bill: Phan, can I take off a little economic load while ensuring long term technological dependence on my software and rendering you less competitive in Asia for decades?

Phan: I guess (sighs).

$$HICK $$HING

Bill: How does that feel?

Phan: Pretty weird really, I thought all that stuff you said at dinner last night was honest, y'know about empowering people and stuff.

Bill: Well, right now I need as many footholds in Asia as possible to help stay a unilateral exploration of alternatives to vendor lock-in, especially in this region. No hard feelings? I want to do this together Phan. You and me. It'll be like Bonnie and Clyde but with IntelliMice instead of guns.

Phan: I guess, no hard feelings.

Bill: I feel we really understand each other.

Phan: Me too, Americans have been really nasty to us in the past. Thanks Bill.. Can you call me "Phan The Man"?

Bill: It would be my pleasure.

Phan: Can I call you "Billy G"?

Bill: Absolutely not.

Phan: (sighs)

Re:No hard feelings.

[Leers]

No no. It went like this:
Phan: Main screen turn on.
Bill: All your base are belong to us.
Make your time.

This doesn't change anything

[donscarletti]

Now remember, nomatter what happens with Microsoft and the Vietnamese government or making censorship software for China, it's still Linux that's the un-democratic, commie OS that is against the principles of the United States, freedom, peace and everything that is fair and just.

If you say otherwise you're just a commie too. Good freedom loving software is made in Redmond.

Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get training?

[museumpeace]

...as well as provide software training for 50,000 of the country's teachers....
The US has more than 3 times the population of Viet Nam. Do we have 50000 teachers who have some IT training?
Just put this story together with yesterday's story about US students turning away from computer related careers. What does Viet Nam's government do to get something out of Microsoft that our own state and national govt won't do?

Protests in Seattle

[FridayBob]

No, no! You don't understand. Bill is simply injecting goodness into Vietnam via the backdoor. Once everybody over there is running Windows, the country will be at peace and all political prisoners will be released.

Re:Protests in Seattle

[dannyitc]

Or maybe once everybody over there is running Windows, the country's information infrastructure will collapse upon itself, paving the way for the institution of a new open-source government by the people and for the people.

Re:Protests in Seattle

[TheKidWho]

Yes because the US's IT infrastructure has been getting ready to collapse every day for the past 15 years because we have been using Windows in the majority of computers...

Re:Protests in Seattle

[dannyitc]

Hyperbole, man, hyperbole. Attempting to inject some light hearted discourse here.

Re:Protests in Seattle

[mrisaacs]

...the country will be at peace and all political prisoners will be released... when the servers controlling them experience the BSOD... :)

Re:Protests in Seattle

[Tenebrous]

Yeah, and when he injects that goodness via the backdoor, tell him to use a bucket of sand to make it fit better.

As they say

[FidelCatsro]

Birds of a feather ,they flock together

I think it

[suezz]

speaks volumes when the first time a head of a country comes to the US in over thrity years goes to Microsoft first and then Washington.

Scarry - very scarry.

Re:I think it

[Anonymous Coward]

Your spelling is scarry as well.

Re:I think it

[Anonymous Coward]

To me, its more scary to have to choose between visits to Bill Gates or George W...

Re:I think it

[HungWeiLo]

Yes, I noticed that too. I was suprised that a quick stop at the "US Embassy" at Bentonville, AR was not scheduled.

Re:I think it

[Anonymous Coward]

I honestly do not get your point, unless you mean that economic relations are just as important as political (as always). All this proves is that Microsoft is a global force with plenty of capital. That was already known.

Frequently, overseas visitations involve many meetings (obviously). It is rare for the first or last of these to be with the most powerful political bodies. In fact, the history of SE Asia political relations frequently parallel informal
trade negotiation. This tradition goes back thousands of years with Vietnam and major powers (at one time solely China).

So meeting with a major corporate head and a major political figure in any order is to be expected. One may get more publicity than another, but that's not a function of significance. Vietnam wants entrance into the WTO. Relationships with major corporations and governments is how to achieve this.

Re:I think it

[magarity]

Well, Seattle *is* on the Pacific coast, after all.

Re:Righ[tt] ..

[tomhudson]

Isn't it more of a case that MS is trying to undermine the competition?

Not really - since they're a monopoly who can't stand any competition, their number one job is to undermine themselves. Hence Longhorn, Vietnam, etc. Gotta keep the dogs of war^W^W^Wmarketing machine sharp!

Getting there first

[joshsnow]

MS are obviously trying to head off a wholesale take up of Linux based systems. Also probably trying to head off piracy - or at least laying the groundwork for that.

Wonder if they'll sell a special "light" version of windows.

Re:Getting there first

[Rick.C]

Wonder if they'll sell a special "light" version of windows.

Overheard on the street when Bill visits Vietnam:

"Hey Bill! Love you long-time. $300."

"Hey Bill! Over here! Love you 'lite', $30."

Being poor doesnt allow making poor choices

[Anonymous Coward]

Vietnam cant afford MS products now and will never in the long run. Then why stick to some thing so non standard and expensive? train you teachers on slackware and there will be an distro "NamWare" in next few yrs free as freedom(i mean it dont confuse with operation liberation/lubrication).

Kilgore was RIGHT!

[panic_smooth]

I'm quite sure that MSIE will ensure Charlie don't surf!.

Re:Kilgore was RIGHT!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nicely done, sir... :-)

-applause-

Re:Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get traini

[Rakishi]

IT training probably means "since you will never own a computer, let us show you how to use one." And given that the US has millions of teachers, yes there probably are 50k with the same level of IT training.

Re:Righ[tt] ..

[dagr8tim]

Not really - since they're a monopoly who can't stand any competition, their number one job is to undermine themselves. I meant their competition as a tyrant that cares little or none about people. Hey....wait....speaking of that why hasn't the RIAA & MS squared off yet?

people look happy in Vietnam

[dario_moreno]

I just spent two weeks in Vietnam, and people look quite happy to me...and human rights do not seem to be violated anymore, especially not in shops selling bootleg MP3 and software CDs at 1$ apiece ! There even was very expensive engineering software like Patran. The good thing when you buy a Windows CD there (or DVD for 3$ ) is that when you install it, Office magically appears already configured in several languages with all extensions, as well as Photoshop or Acrobat, Norton and so on. So Microsoft is actually able to put on the market distributions competitive with Linux, usable out-of the box ! Very interesting also in Saigon-HMC : the museum of american war crimes in Vietnam (called now the Museum against war or something like that for political correctness). The very disturbing pictures of agent-orange children or torched villages help to relativize the alleged human rights violations...

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[TheKidWho]

In case you didn't notice, the people protesting are Vietnamese Americans...

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[glMatrixMode]

and human rights do not seem to be violated anymore

Then try to say 'I want democracy, not communism.' in vietnamese and count the seconds before you're arrested.

In Vietnam, today, people may not even move unless explicitly allowed to by the state. Let alone running a successful business. No real criticism of the state is tolerated. When sending mail to your Vietnamese friends, never send a CD-R. The government will open your mail and check for political/ideological content.

Yet, you are right to say that the Viets are quite happy. But happy != free. And about every Viet would love to move to America, if he/she could. No, I'm not American.

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[elrous0]

people may not even move unless explicitly allowed to by the state. Let alone running a successful business. No real criticism of the state is tolerated.

And that's different from the U.S. how, exactly?

Just try moving around the U.S. without a driver's license, proof of insurance, car registration, etc. some time. Or try running a business without a business license and IRS paperwork. See what happens.

And, God help those who are critical of the state these days.

-Eric

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[dario_moreno]

to reply to parent and grandparent, you are both right, in the US people are free but not happy...and indeed, the concept of democracy seems to me as much "in principle only" in both countries. Even in Soviet Russia (no slashjoke here) there were free and open elections in principle, the Com. Party being there only to enforce a political vision but not to control the state. It's the same in Vietnam I think. Besides, at the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe, the parties gracefully retired without bloodshed, having understood that the people wanted something else ; that proves that there was some democracy. Recently, in Europe, the governments in place did not seem to understand the message sent by the referenda about the european constitution ; they just stay in place, "business as usual". One wonders were democracy really is.

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[greendot]

Then try to say 'I want democracy, not communism.' in vietnamese and count the seconds before you're arrested.

They don't call it "Communism". That is our label. And from a political point of view, I don't know if they really see voting as that much of a benefit. The fact that you state it this way shows that you're still stuck in the 1970's.

They see their political ladder as a series of steps fueled by corruption. And guess what, they see ours the same way. And maybe they're better off because they're not dupped by lies.

I spent a year there and never once had a good argument as to why democracy was better. The only thing I could think of is that we have the freedom to protest and complain.

When you sit down with a Vietnamese person and compare notes, the USA is not the land of milk and honey. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Just start going down the list of all the different the US/state/county/city governments can enforce their will on you and I bet your list will be longer than theirs.

In Vietnam, today, people may not even move unless explicitly allowed to by the state.

I don't think that's true. I know three people who have moved within the past few years and I never heard them mention having to get cleared by the gov to do so. Maybe they did but it's such a no-brainer that it doesn't bother them.

Let alone running a successful business.

What is that supposed to mean? The business world is completely different there. There are a lot of private successful businesses... and there are successful state-run businesses. But, just like anywhere, you have to know your market. I hope you're not implying that everything is state-run.

No real criticism of the state is tolerated.

Right now, this is probably true. And to a point, it is understandable. They had a civil war. The people involved in that civil war are still alive. Most of the youth (under 30) think the government is just fine and don't complain anyway.

When sending mail to your Vietnamese friends, never send a CD-R. The government will open your mail and check for political/ideological content.

yes, this is what you are told. They're also searching for things like child pornography. But, I don't know how thorough this is. I ordered a laptop and had it shipped to VN and was told that it would have to be inspected. It never was. It was never even turned on. And, unless they're really good with repackaging thing (and I doubt they are), it was never even opened. I only had to grease some palms to get it through w/out having to pay taxes on it, but that's a whole 'nuther story.

And about every Viet would love to move to America, if he/she could.

Nope. That is not the case. Not one of the many friends I made over there wants to come to America. One girl did arrange a marriage so she could come over and work for a few years but she is going back as soon as she can.

When I was there, my wife and I asked this question a lot, just to see how they felt. She taught English and was exposed to, what I would think would be the most prone group to want to go, students in their 20's. Most of them love American products but would not want to live here.

A few do, yes. And most of the people who do want to move here view America as a big utopia where you can do whatever you want and make as much money as you want. I'm sure if you talk to somebody in the small towns, they'll wish they could. But that is the same in any country.

No, I'm not American.

I am.

I hope you're not Viet Kieu. Before I went to VN, a lot of Viet Kieu (and older Americans who lived thru the war) tried to tell me how bad it was and how it was going to be one of the hardest years of my life. How wrong they were. It turned out to be the best.

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[glMatrixMode]

I hope you're not Viet Kieu

I'm not, my girlfriend's family is.

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[Wyatt Earp]

OK, I'll bite. I moved from Oregon to Flordia, to Colorado to Oregon with a suspended licence, I didn't know it was suspended, and I didn't get tossed in the slammer.

A business licence and IRS paperwork aren't the same as "explicitly allowed by the state." Anyone can get a business licence in the States, you pay for it, you get registered, you are a business.

For Oregon, where I live.

"The State of Oregon does not have a general business license. However, many occupations and business activities require special licenses, permits, or certifications from state agencies or boards. To help businesses comply with state regulations, Oregon has established the Business Referral Center as a first-stop information source. To determine if your particular business activity is licensed or regulated by the state, the "Business Wizard" online provides a list of referrals for registering a new business and possible license, permit and certification requirements. "

"The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) provides two free CD ROMs 'A Virtual Small Business Workshop" (Publication 3700) and "The Small Business Resource Guide" (Publication 3207) that contain extensive information for new businesses. These can be obtained by calling the Forms Distribution Center at 1-800-829-3676"

http://www.filinginoregon.com/obg/18.htm

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[LHX]

I hope you're not Viet Kieu.

You forgot that Viet Kieu have also gone back there, many times more than you have. When they went to Vietnam, they stayed and talked to their relatives and friends who have lived under the regime, unlike your experience where the people you came into contact with probably have vested interested in presenting the best face for the government. As a factoid, you can be sure that you need the government's permission to move, or you need to register with the local police if you have visitors who will stay for a few days or more.

Bottom line is that you're a foreigner there. You can try but nobody is going to be honest with you, for or against the government. Just by your using the war 30 years ago to defend their persecuting for criticizing the government, I can see that they've done a job on you. We all know that those commie are good. Remind me of the people who visited North Korea in the 80's and think it's a paradise.

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you go to any prisons, work camps, or "mental hospitals?"

How about any underground churches?

You should rephrase your subject: "I didn't see any unhappy people in Vietnam on my vacation."

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[GypC]

And, God help those who are critical of the state these days.

Really? When did they throw Michael Moore and Al Franken in jail?

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[elrous0]

A business licence and IRS paperwork aren't the same as "explicitly allowed by the state." Anyone can get a business licence in the States, you pay for it, you get registered, you are a business.

There are also local zoning ordinances, business laws, and any number of other ways the state can persecute, prosecute, and outlaw your business if it's controversial or unpopular.

If you don't believe it, just try setting up a porn shop or strip club in a red state sometime.

Even something as minor as locating your liquor store near some conservative politician's house will give you a great primer in the reality of just how much the state controls us.

-Eric

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[elrous0]

When did they throw Michael Moore and Al Franken in jail?

Al Franken and Michael Moore are protected (for the most part) because they're wealthy, well-known, and in the public eye. No one would ever go after them with simple intimidation tactics (media smear campaigns are the weapon of choice against them).

It's the average citizen who has to worry about losing their job, getting physically attacked, being intimidated by law enforement, or simply being held in detention as long as the local prosecutor feels like it on some bogus charge. That is how the average citizen is kept in check.

-Eric

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[GypC]

Oh, I see. So this has happened to who? I'd appreciate some evidence.

You sure are a brave man for posting this seeing as how Bush's jackbooted thugs could kick in your door at any moment for being so radical and sassy.

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[D H NG]

I returned to Vietnam last year after leaving it 10 years ago as a child with my family. The economic situation seems to have improved. The small village where I was born now have electricity (although there's sporatic blackouts). But the situation there can go nowhere but up. My aunt, who's an elementary school teacher, makes about $500 a year. The country is rife with corruption. If you want to get something done, you have to give the officials some money. Want to get through customs without a problem? $20 bribe for the customs officers. If you don't, they'll make up some bogus charges and keep you for a long time. You want to stay in a certain place for longer than a week? You have to register with the local "People's Committee" ($50 bribe). etc. etc. Until they take care of the corruption problem, I think foreign investors will be discouraged from doing business there.

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[Wyatt Earp]

However, a control isn't the same as "explicitly allowed by the state".

Local zoning isn't a Federal law. In Vietnam the National Government limits business, in the United States things are much more open.

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[elrous0]

Oh, I see. So this has happened to who?

Every open atheist in the country, every black person born in the South before 1960, anyone foolish enough to put a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker on their car in states like Texas and South Carolina, anyone daring to hold up a protest sign outside of George Bush's "designated protest area."

Should I go on, or was that just a rhetorical question?

-Eric

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[elrous0]

in the United States things are much more open

That's what we tell ourselves. Of course, we also call it "propoganda" when someone else says it about their country, "education" when we say it about the U.S.

I would be concerned. But luckily, I'm a loyal patriot--not like one of those blind nationalists they have in other countries.

-Eric

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[GypC]

Uhhh... I thought we were talking about the government here. So you're just generally unhappy with the way American citizens treat those they disagree with? What does that have to do with the government?

Not far from Vietnam there are Muslims who chop the heads off Buddhists for the crime of, well, being Buddhist. There are places all over the world where ethnic groups murder each other daily and political opponents do the same. The United States is actually quite civilized, with the occasional exception, and the exceptions are usually arrested and prosecuted.

You still have provided me no links to facts. I can provide links to people being harrassed for having Bush bumper stickers or being openly conservative in a University classroom if you like...

Re:people look happy in Vietnam

[Anonymous Coward]

people look happy in Vietnam

Thats because if you dont look happy the police come to your house, take you away and no one ever hears from you again.

The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[br00tus]

pictures

I should note the picture of the Vietnamese man summarily executing a Vietnamese prisoner is an RVN (US puppet government) official shooting an suspected NLF prisoner, polls show young Americans often think it's the reverse.

The pictures of the dead villagers and child are the My Lai massacre, when US troops walked into a hamlet and massacred everyone

The naked girl running was just napalmed by the US air force

The monk who is burning did that to himself, he is protesting the US puppet government's treatment of Buddhists.

The girl screaming over the dead body is a picture of an American over an American. College students protested Nixon's invasion of Cambodia, and the Ohio National Guard shot four students dead (and two students protesting were killed at Jackson state as well).

Then there's other things not pictured, the US bombing of Vietnam dikes, the prison on Con Sen Island (which was as bad, or worse, than the Hanoi Hilton and treatment of John McCain etc. that you always hear about on US TV, but which never gets mentioned), the Christmas bombing of Hanoi, the mining of North Vietnam's harbors, strategic hamlets, the US dropping 500,000 tons of bombs on Cambodia (which probably killed people in the hundreds of thousands) and so on and so forth. It's not pretty...by the way, I'm an American, but I don't support the US"s rich man's wars, poor man 's fights...

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[IWantMoreSpamPlease]

Shall we point out some of the lovely things the Viet gov't did to its *own* people?

Stones, glass houses, sin, etc.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[PaxTech]

Shall we point out some of the lovely things the Viet gov't did to its *own* people?

No, no, you see, when the US oppresses people (by turning the AC down and playing loud rap music) it's the US government's fault, and when governments opposed to the US oppress people (by killing and maiming them) it's also the US government's fault.

Logically this makes sense, but only if you belong to what is known as the "reality based community". Apparently if there was no United States, the world would be a playground of love and understanding and puppy dogs.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[tomstdenis]

As a typical idiot you missed the point.

The point was that Americans are often too quick to judge when you yourselves don't have the best record to stand on.

So instead of going around like your shit don't stink think twice about what you're doing. I mean for instance, look at the Vietnam war. It killed millions of Vietnam civillians and for what? The "evil communists" still won anyways. If you just left them be they'd probably be much better off.

But think of it this way, when America was being settled you had the British come and try to force their government on you. You fought back and now you're all proud that you whooped some ass.

All the while [I might add] you were slave owning, indian murdering savages.

Now you look at Vietnam and you see the "evil communists" and their crimes. Then you think "oh we're justified in trying to send our troops out there to force our way of life and government on them."

So in what way are you not the Britains trying to quash the rebellion?

Tom

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[PaxTech]

As a typical idiot you missed the point. The point was that Americans are often too quick to judge..

+1, ironic.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[Pig Hogger]

The naked girl running was just napalmed by the US air force

Actually no. She was napalmed by the south-vietnamese air-force.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, again +1 ironic.

The idiots never run out of vitriol to spew on slashdot!

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[tomstdenis]

How is it ironic? I've been to the US and France. I've been to the east coast and the west coast. That's more than I can say for the average "god save america" American.

So really, in what way is my post ironic? Do you even know what the word means?

Tom

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[Tenebrous]

"I should note the picture of the Vietnamese man summarily executing a Vietnamese prisoner is an RVN (US puppet government) official shooting an suspected NLF prisoner, polls show young Americans often think it's the reverse."

If they think so, it's because that's what they've been told by school teachers who want to rewrite history.

"the Ohio National Guard shot four students dead"

The Ohio National Guard fired into the air, over the heads of the protesters, who were throwing rocks and bottles at the RETREATING National Guard. Admittedly shooting into the air was a stupid thing to do, because all that lead has to land somewhere.

Your post suggests that the NG killed four protesters. They didn't. The truth is bad enough, so why lie about it?

And while I'm at it, don't even bring up the so-called atrocities committed by the US against the VC. The things the US did, including My Lai, were nothing compared to what the VC did to their own people and to any US soldiers captured by the VC. The VC were and are creative in a way the Spanish Inquisition would have envied.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[br00tus]

John Plummer was a captain in the US armed forces who was in Vietnam, and he says he took an active part in the incident. I know some people dispute the details, but the fact remains that a former US captain claims that the US air force WAS involved.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[br00tus]

John Plummer was a captain in the US armed forces who was in Vietnam, and he says he took an active part in the incident. I know some people dispute the details, but the fact remains that a former US captain claims that the US air force WAS involved.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm..the Americans didn't "whoop" any ass at all, the only ass involved was the one handed back to them on a plate by the Canucks when the Yankie try to invade Canada (and the Canadians burnt down the White House for good measure!).

The only ass whooping that was done was between the French and the Brits for control over what's now the continental USA.

The American militias were a militarily ineffective annoyance to the real fighting. Fast forward a few hundred years and along comes Hollywood and *boom* the Yanks beat the whole world while inventing boiling water...

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[br00tus]

The Ohio National Guard shot bullets out of their guns, they hit a number of students, four of whom died, facts which you do not dispute. To me that makes "the Ohio National Guard shot four students dead" a reality, not a "lie".

As far as treatment of prisoners, we can turn on US corporate television and hear about how John McCain was treated and the Hanoi Hilton and whatnot. You never hear about how NLF prisoners were treated on Con Sen Island though, which was as bad or worse.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[PaxTech]

You're absolutely hilarious. You spew these blatant generalizations about Americans and say we're "close minded".

Just for your information, I'm in my thirties and I've traveled all over the world. Hope you can wrap your brain around that, not that I'm saying you're "close minded". I've seen the world, and if you think the US is oppressive compared to most of the world I think *you're* the parochial one.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[Anonymous Coward]

I should note the picture of the Vietnamese man summarily executing a Vietnamese prisoner is an RVN (US puppet government) official shooting an suspected NLF prisoner, polls show young Americans often think it's the reverse.

What you are saying is factually true---true as in "half truths". But would your opinion even change the slightest bit if I told you that the photographer who took that picture (I don't remember the name, but he was very well-known, especially for his work during the Vietnam War) regretted taking that picture because it misrepresented the man summarily executing the prisoner? The "victim" there had killed a number of people close to that officer (family or fellow officers, I forget) earlier (like either earlier in the day or a few days ago).

Criticize the government that makes bad decision to butt in where they are not welcome---not the people who are victims (on both sides).

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[tomstdenis]

Again you missed the fucking point.

It isn't that the USA is the worst. It's that your shit stinks just like the rest of us. This holier than thou attitude is exactly my point.

Example: What we call murder you call "collateral damage". What we call violating the geneva convention you call "Operation Iraqi Liberation", etc, etc, etc...

To say the USA does nothing good is stupid. They do plenty of good [and often more than Canada for instance].

The point, if you care to follow, is that you do shit that you ought to be ashame of. Window dressing it up as "the cost of war on terror" is just asinine.

Tom

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[IWantMoreSpamPlease]

>>If you just left them be they'd probably be much better off.

You're kidding right? The name Pol Pot ring a fucking bell to you?

And before you retort, yes, he was killer of Cambodia, but those in charge of Vietnam were no less clean.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[Wyatt Earp]

No photos of the piles of dead bodies the Communists had murdered at Hue City during the '68 Tet?

Cambodian foreign policy during the 1950s and 1960s was one of neutrality. By the mid-1960s, parts of Cambodia's eastern provinces were serving as bases for North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong (NVA/VC) forces operating against South Vietnam, and the port of Sihanoukville was being used to supply them. As NVA/VC activity grew, the United States and South Vietnam became concerned, and in 1969, the United States began a fourteen month long series of bombing raids targeted at NVA/VC elements, contributing to destabilization. Prince Sinanouk tacitly supported the bombing. The United States claims that the bombing campaign took place no further than ten, and later twenty miles inside the Cambodian border.

In March 1970, while Prince Sihanouk was absent in Bejing and Moscow, Gen. Lon Nol deposed Prince Sihanouk and assumed power. Son Ngoc Thanh announced his support for the new government. On October 9, the Cambodian monarchy was abolished, and the country was renamed the Khmer Republic.

Hanoi rejected the new republic's request for the withdrawal of NVA troops. 2,000-4,000 Cambodians who had gone to North Vietnam in 1954 reentered Cambodia, backed by North Vietnamese soldiers. In response, the United States moved to provide material assistance to the new government's armed forces, which were engaged against both the CPK insurgents and NVA forces.

In April 1970, US President Nixon announced to the American public that US and South Vietnamese ground forces had entered Cambodia in a campaign aimed at destroying NVA base areas in Cambodia. The US had already been bombing Cambodia for well over a year by that point. Demonstrations took place across college campuses in the US, culminating in the death of four students at Kent State, lending support in the US withdrawal from Vietnam.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[PaxTech]

All you've done in this thread is spout your stereotypes about "God save americans" and call me names like "idiot".

Sorry if it doesn't exactly endear me to paying the slightest bit of attention to whatever kind of argument you're lamely attempting to make.

I learned long ago not to bother arguing on /. with Canadians about politics. The typical resident of the People's Republic of Canada is way too "close minded" to get through to.

And yes, the ironic content in this post is entirely intentional.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[PaxTech]

The irony was in the way that you leapt to assuming I'm a "typical idiot" and then complained that Americans were "quick to judge" in the next breath. If that doesn't meet your Canadian dictionary definition of irony, please excuse me, I'm an "idiot" American so I used the word in a colloquial sense. I thought the meaning would be clear to the educated reasoned citizen of the world that I assumed you were. Sorry for being so "quick to judge" that you'd understand without a pedantic explanation suitable for a small child.

Do you ever actually convince anyone to come around to your point of view by calling them names and implying that they don't know the meanings of the words they use? Because, honestly, at least in this thread, you really come off as a jackass. I'm not saying that to engage in a competition of insults, I'm just trying to raise the level of discourse a little.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[Anonymous Coward]

A picture may be worth a thousand words but that doesn't mean that it can always capture the whole story. The picture of the RVN police chief executing the NLF prisoner is extremely well known and correctly pointed to as a denial of due process and violation of human rights. But the circumstances behind the execution are usually forgotten. The man being executed was captured at a site where 34 people were bound and shot dead, all of whom were either police officials or their families. Wives and children. Included among the 34 dead were the police chief's deputy and the deputy's family.

I'm not trying to justify the actions of RVN officials - they were clearly contrary to what we regard as human rights. But this is more likely a crime of passion than a coldly premeditated policy.

The US is a big country and the US armed forces are a big organization. Sometimes groups within the US government/armed forces do things that we all recognize are wrong. Did the US armed forces kill unarmed combatants including women and children? Almost certainly. But it was never an instrument of policy as it was with the Viet Cong.

Call me crazy (I know, on slashdot I needn't bother with the invitation. People will be lining up to do just that anyway.), but I believe that on the whole the US behaved more honorably than not during the Viet Nam war and continues to in the Iraq war.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[br00tus]

More serious was the bombing of Cambodia beginning in February 1973 (a month after the Paris Peace Accords). The US Air Force was not flying any more bombing missions over Vietnam, so it began to lay waste to Cambodia over the next few months, and not just the eastern provinces.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[snorklewacker]

And that makes napalming villages ALL WELL AND FUCKING GOOD, DOES IT NOT?

Jesus. You people are morons.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[Wyatt Earp]

Thats because Cambodia wasn't a signatory to the Paris Peace Accords.

The Arclight missions over Cambodia were halted in August 15, 1973 by the United States Congress.

From the Khmer Rouge perspective, however, the severity of the bombings was matched by the treachery of the North Vietnamese. The Cambodian communists had refused to take part in the Paris peace talks. So that when North Vietnam and the United States signed the Paris Peace Accords on January 27, 1973, bombing missions over Vietnam and Laos were terminated. The fighter bombers and other aircraft thus released were diverted to strike Khmer Rouge positions in Cambodia.

Re:The US/RVN's human rights record in Vietnam

[circusboy]

how this got modded troll is beyond me...

I've travelled a big chunk of North America and Europe, which I suppose doesn't really give me that much basis for comparison, (haven't been to South America, Asia or Africa yet, (beyond a couple of weeks in Egypt.)) But where I have gone, this is very true. In fairness, it is frequently true of people everywhere, but the difference I have seen is largely that people from the US are surprised if others *have* something, where others are surprised that people from the US *haven't*

I would not, however, say that it is as limited as tom makes out though. I was born and raised in Rhode Island, and one time travelling through the midwest I was asked if I had ever seen a farm before. People who don't travel, in general*, have little idea of what goes on in other places. [note: other *places* not other *countries*, (or for that matter, states, counties, nations, continents etc.)] I've been in the far reaches of new england for the last 10 months, and people on one side of the state have little conception of what goes on on the other side of the state, and this is new england for crying out loud, so that's not very far.) All over, there are people who have never been more than a few miles from home, and it is a definite minority of those who have a balanced world view. Especially if you get that world view from the current US media...

I was very lucky in my childhood to have been taken overseas for a couple of years. Of course there are differences, (you'd be amazed at what you get for pizza in Italy if all you know is domino's.) and you see them because they stick out to you, you may not notice that the pharmacy has everything you are used to seeing.

Montreal is not even 100 miles from where I'm sitting, and it is a very different world in a lot of ways, but if you go there, you are not immediately struck by huge differences, but lots of little ones. On example 10 years ago, when I lived there, I was shocked (pleasantly) to see the uncut version of "the Unbearable Lightness of Being" on TV, while sitting at a bar. That was when It hit me that I was not subject to FCC rules. I was also surprised, (less pleasantly) to find out that right on red is illegal.

(Perhaps Toronto or Vancouver might be a better example because of the language thing.)

There's a PBS commentator, who does travellogues and in one of them he made a point about 'if you *really* can't live without something, bring it with you, but chances are you'll find it where you go, but on the off chance you don't, ask yourself, "how do X million Europeans get along fine without it?"'

When I was travelling with the touring show, we hired local staff in every city, and the number of people who would ask me things like "do you have $thing? up there in Canada?" where $thing could be as stupid as some brand of car, or radio, it got to be pretty inane, but amazingly consistent. even in the canadian cities (when they found out I was from the states,) though see the above caveat for the difference.

Sorry, drifted way of point, but to 'iterate' toms point, experience the damn world, but try not to leave a mess.

*generalizations like this are nasty, I know, but squeaky wheels and all that... If one goes by personal experiences, one can only go by the things that have drawn one's notice, and we 'Americans' certainly excel at that.

Oh, great.

[Anonymous Coward]

Another article and thread that gives the oh-so-hip Slashdot lemmings a chance to say wacky things about the USA ("Bush is Pol Pot", "Gitmo is Auschwitz").

I'd give a dollar to see a Slashdot post from some college student in his dorm that actually had some sense of REALITY underpinning his assertions.

Nah, that'll never happen. Carry on.

Re:Oh, great.

[deadweight]

They are too stupid to realize that the very fact they can post like that and stay out of some camp is WAY more freedom than anyone in China or Vietnam currently enjoys.

Re:Oh, great.

[rsynnott]

But way LESS freedom than someone in western Europe enjoys ;) Nothing's absolute.

Re:Oh, great.

[deadweight]

I spend a lot of time in Western Europe. Please either go there and see for yourself or quit smoking crack. What can someone in Germany do today that I can't? I get all pissed off at the Homeland Insecurity rules for flying in the DC area because it REMINDS ME OF THE BULLSHIT IN EUROPE. I am part of a small minority in the USA (about 500,000 of us) that are pilots and contend with all kinnds of stupid crap since 9-11, but for the average person not much has changed. No government agent is going to track me down for making fun of DHS. Before you get all excited, please don't post about socialist medical systems. Paying huge taxes for a no choice medical system may or may not be a good idea, but freedom it is not.

Re:Oh, great.

[dual_boot_brain]

Except of course there is no freedom to be a Nazi; no freedom to deny the holocaust. So there is no true freedom of expression or association. Freedom of expression and association can not be applied solely to things you like or agree with. In fact, your most strident support of freedom must be for the things you most despise.

Regardless, in 20 years when europe is under Sharia law, your lack of freedom will become more apparent.

The problem is that some people equate smoking pot and copying CDs with freedom. They are not freedoms. Freedoms are not about what you can do, they are about what the government cannot do. They are checks on the inherent nature of governments to become less open, less tolerant, and more susceptible to outside influences which run counter to the general good of the citizens.

So which freedoms do I lack?

Re:Oh, great.

[rsynnott]

Actually, in my country (Ireland), and also in the UK and a number of other European countries, we have freedom to deny the holocaust and such as much as we like. I've never heard anyone do it, tho ;) In practice, the law in Germany and France is outdated, and probably causes more trouble than it prevents.

The UN says that Ireland has the free-est speech in the world; we don't ban much, apart from the usual child porn and incitement to hatred.

Sorry, Europe under Sharia law? Where'd that come from? I can imagine the US falling under crazy fundamentalist christian law, but you realise Europe has been getting more and more secular for decades (to the extent that some right-wing Americans deride it as atheist; not true; the UK is the only country with very high levels of atheism for the moment, sadly). And you realise that many middle eastern countries aren't under Sharia law, right?

In Europe, we have the freedom to criticise anything our governments do to an unlimited extent, and to be as unpatriotic as we want to, and to advocate revolution if we want to. The Americans are getting increasingly nervous about doing those things, tho for the moment that seems to be social pressure more than government pressure.

And you can be arrested, imprisoned indefinitely without trial, tortured (by European, UN and Israeli definitions of the word) and executed, all in secret. You can be searched without warrant, and soon it may be illegal for you to TELL anyone you've been searched. All under the patriot act. None of these things can happen to me (unless I pay the Free World a visit). That's freedom for you.

Now, what freedoms do _I_ lack?

Improvement results in punishment

[Anonymous Coward]

When a country improves its human rights record, people keep pointing to past abuses to prevent trade with them.

You can't end human rights abuses overnight. Ensuring that a countries people remain broke and starving is a sure way to keep human rights abuses going.

When people are rich they don't allow their rights to be trampled on. For example the average chinese person is now much richer and more well off than 10 years ago (I know because I have numerous friends still in China). This has caused a reduction in human rights abuses (richer people can afford to eliminate the danger of being puished around). There is surplus demand for workers so companies have to attract them by offering more benefits and wages. Go to China and speak to the average person. If when China started opening up, other nations shunned them .. the communists would have retained their power. Embargoes simply do not work. Cuba's Fidel Castro is still in power isn't he?

Re:This being America....

[smittyoneeach]

Korea Doctorow doesn't know anything about IT.

Re: a sense of irony

[guet]

I live in the UK - things are not a whole lot better here right now.

it's just business, like Linux or Google

[dioscaido]

It would be nice. But lets be realistic, MS isn't the only group out to expand market share. The Linux community was excited to lend a hand to China's Linux distribution. Similarly, google censors searches in the same country. For corporations, economics will almost always win out over politics.

Re:it's just business, like Linux or Google

[FidelCatsro]

Also there is a strong chance the only reason socialist republic of Vietnam is going strongly with MS is because China is going with Linux. A lot of bad blood over the years between the two (most recently the sino-soviet conflicts in the late 70s and the border skirmishes through the region , though relations are better now ).
I do imagine they wouldn't want there systems on anything like china has.

Not bad at all....

[Rule_Of_The_Bone]

...considering the history. Nice to see the healing process between the USA and Vietnam continue. Gives me hope that ole' Bill will be shaking hands with folks in Iraq and Afghanistan 20 years from now (God...please don't take that long!).

Triumph of Asian Socialism

[Anonymous Coward]

As Bush fiddles around in Eurasia, East Asia is displacing America as the planets's number one
actual producer of things.

Re:Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get traini

[vigilology]

Then people would be complaining that all their kids were being taught was Microsoft stuff.

Re: a sense of irony

[rsynnott]

Really? Can you be legally imprisoned indefinitely, tortured and executed in secret and without trial? Do they have an abusive prison camp whose policy is that "mock execution is not encouraged"?

Full Cardboard Box

[AHuxley]

Hey, Vietnam, M$ so stable. M$ so safe. Vietnam looks M$ over. M$ so cheap. M$ profit you too much. Hey, what you say? Number one OS. M$ love Vietnam too much." "How much!" Vietnam asks. "Fifteen dolla." "For all of us?" "No, each seat fifteen dolla."

human rights?

[Groote Ka]

Khai's visit also triggered protests in Seattle, reminding everyone of Vietnam's human rights record.

I thought that that issue was solved at the moment the US army left Vietnam some decades ago. Or are they going to discuss all the tons of agent orange that were left as a goodbye present?

Ok, that was too easy

But I hate to see this happening. I would have preferred Vietnam to follow the software policy of its big brother China. Would be better for them and the rest of the world.

And we have seen multiple times that Bill Gates doesn't give sh@t about human rights by introducing censorship modules in chat and blog software for China. Disgusting.

Re:human rights?

[Infonaut]

OK, that was too easy

Yep, it was. We all know that the US was guilty of all kinds of human rights violations 35+ years ago, but the protests in Seattle have to do with what's going on now in Vietnam

Re:human rights?

[Groote Ka]

Thanks for the link.

On the other topic: At least in the US, at this moment, an open discussion is more or less possible on the horrors of the US occupation of Vietnam.

Don't try to discuss the crimes of war the dutch committed in Indonesia after WW II, at least not with the dutch government. The dutch history books are silent on that.

Re:Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get traini

[loose canons]

People wouldn't complain. Slashdotters would complain.

Hand-in-hand

[pandrijeczko]

Khai's visit also triggered protests in Seattle, reminding everyone of Vietnam's human rights record.

Goes nicely with Microsoft's Digital Rights Management record then...

Re:Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get traini

[suezz]

because Vietnam will become the next outsourcing center - now that India is used up and they are demanding more salaries because they are experienced they have to go somewhere else to pay minimum wage for tech support.

So now America is outsourced to India which will be outsourced to Vietnam.

Obligatory Bush quote

[farker haiku]

You're either with us, or you are with the terrorists.

Re:Obligatory Bush quote

[datadriven]

Bush is just following in the footsteps of his hero

Re:Obligatory Bush quote

[magarity]

I've never heard either presidents Bush claim there are communists working at the State department.

And now this

[EiZei]

Microsoft first censors words like freedom in their chinese blog system in order to appease the authorities and now this. But god forbid if average joe would want to visit Cuba.

Yo go, Bill

[cousinoliver]

You take 'Nam, and OSS will take China.

Workaround: xtSP violator model

[Donny Smith]

>Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code

Lets remind ourselves that $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR can use the loophole in (L)GPL that allows xSPs running GPL apps without abiding by the license (as they do not re-distribute the code).

Here are some workarounds for opressive governments worldwide:

a) have xSPs (Microsoft, Google, Yahoo et al) do the dirty work fo' ya (Microsoft a bit less likely to use GPL software for that, but still).
Motto: We're snitches so you don't have to be.
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles /2005/06/20/tech_firms_help_tyrants_keep_their_gri p/

b) outsource IT operations to multinationals who will run GPL-ed code in any way necessary (including assisting in human rights violations) as long as it helps them make money.
I can wholeheartedly recommend IBM as they have related experience and references stretching as far back as World War II.

Microsoft: Defender of American Values

[rscrawford]

I wonder what words they'll ban in Vietnam? Will they ban "freedom" and "democracy" like they did in China? Or will they add "human rights" to that list as well?

Re:Microsoft: Defender of American Values

[themisiek]

I was born in communist state and lived there for a while, and know a lot of its history.
Now to the point.
It does not matter what they will add to the filter there will ALWAYS be words and expressions that are not added yet. Just research some of the world's literature and films which come from communist states. You might not understand them, you might think they are weird, even awkward, but the targeted audience will get them faster than you might imagine.

Re:Microsoft: Defender of American Values

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, just redefine freedom as 'freedom to join us' and democracy as 'you should have voted'...., 'human rights' can be 'healthcare for those who meet production quotas'.
That way nobody gets pissed off and 'nam gets 50% of /rich/ citizens money instead of the oppressive 50% of a nickle a day they've been getting.

Re: a sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

[in the UK] Can you be legally imprisoned indefinitely

Yes, at a prison camp called Belmarsh. I'll grant you it does not have the same ring to it as Camp X-ray, Guantanamo Bay, Sunny Sands holiday camp or whatever you lot call it now.

Sad

[batje]

Sad to hear that by giving the leader of a poor country a first class treatment in your 'house of the future (but not in your country for the next century)', you can have that leader spend his citizens tax money on an OS which has a free equivalent.

If that would happen in Vietnam, you would call it bribery, and have a demonstration about it.

What's the Problem Here?

[geoffrobinson]

Everyone knows America was the bad guys in the Vietnam War. So the Commies are responsible for the Killing Fields and MS wants to help them.

Seriously, after aging hippies apologize for wrecking SE Asia, I'll get upset at Microsoft.

Re:What's the Problem Here?

[Anonymous Coward]

The so-called "killing fields" are not in Vietnam, the subject of this article. They are in Cambodia - and are filled with a few hundred people executed by the Cambodians - people who betrayed their country for Lon Nol and the Americans. Which of course for many Americans is much worse than the hundreds of thousands of Cambodians the US air force killed when it dropped over half a million tons of bombs on the Cambodian countryside. But the people who should apologize for wrecking SE Asia of course should be the aging hippies who worried about Goldwater saying he'd consider dropping A-bombs on Vietnam.

I wonder if Al Qaeda members have the same sense of hubris when they watch videos of people jumping from 80 stories from the burning World Trade Center. I doubt it.

Re:What's the Problem Here?

[geoffrobinson]

There is a direct causal relationship between the communists taking over in Vietnam and the communists taking over and establishing the killing fields in Cambodia. Not to mention all the people of Vietnam who had to go to camp, were killed, repressed, etc.

Re:What's the Problem Here?

[wibblylemoende]

So, what is this direct causal relationship?

Here are the facts:
1. The Vietnam War (known quite correctly as the American War by the Vietnamese) was not just about Viet Nam. The US conducted major campaigns within t he borders of both Laos and Cambodia to disrupt supply chains and in an attempt to prevent the impact of communism spreading.
2. The 'Killing Felds' were in Cambodia.
3. The Khmer Rouge was in control of Cambodia after the toppling of the Lon Nol regime (supported by the US). This is related to the US withdrawal, but is unrelated to Viet Nam.
4. IMPORTANT: The Khmer Rouge were supported by the Chinese (who were opposed to the Vietnamese Communists). The Vietnamese were supported by the Russians. By the end of the Viet Nam war, Russia and China were already at loggerheads. China had made it clear to Viet Nam that there would be consequences for any interference in Cambodia.
5. The estimated dates for the use of the 'Killing Fields' were between 1975 and 1979. This corresponds with the end of the American War, but was not a consequence of the Vietnamese Communists taking control of the whole of Viet Nam.
6. The Vietnamese did not enter Cambodia until at least 3 years later. When they did, the Chinese invaded northern Viet Nam and razed whole towns. The border between Viet Nam and China is still disputed (in fact one of the recent political detainees in Viet Nam is in jail for suggesting the Vietnamese government has given away too much in the negotiations).
7. MOST IMPORTANTLY: The Vietnamese invaded Cambodia for two main reasons: 1) To prevent the sporadic cross-border attacks on Viet Nam (the Cambodian border is only 80km from the centre of Sai Gon/HCMC), and 2) To bring down a regime that was creating untold suffering inside Cambodia.

It is true that the Cambodian government is now extremely pro-Viet Nam ... Hun Sen (the current prime minister) was a defector to the Vietnamese side during their takeover of the country.

Do not confuse the 1978 Vietnamese intervention in the madness of the Khmer Rouge as an attempt to spread Communism. Although it had the effect of bringing in a sympathetic government in Phnom Penh, the Vietnamese were mostly interested in stopping the attacks on Viet Nam.

You have been misled, dear fellow. Don't swallow all the propaganda.

Read a bit more of the history before you get involved in this one. The history is a little more complicated than you've been led to believe.

Human rights in Vietnam

[Anonymous Coward]

I seem to remember the USA's human rights record in Vietnam wasn't exactly a shining beacon.

Bill is king

[hey]

So he only takes to other heads of state now.
What an ass.
How is going to hear what's really going on from these guys.

Re:Bill is king

[Anonymous Coward]

What a ridiculous leap.

Charlie's coming...

[Anonymous Coward]

Charlie's coming over the DSL!

Bad news and good news

[Anonymous Coward]

The bad news is that Bill Gates is going to Hanoi. The good news is that Ted Kennedy will be driving him to the airport.

language

[hey]

Vietnam had to wait for Microsoft to release a local-lauguage version (of Windows?). If they used open source they could make it themselves.

Re:language

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft Vietnam has already released Vietnamese Version of Windows and Office, probably a year ago (I don't remember exactly)

Re:language

[kevmille]

There is a Vietnamese language version of OpenOffice.org but it still will not be as popular as pirated versions of MS Office. No one wants to switch to Linux. A couple years ago, the Vietnamese government initiated a program to promote usuage of open source software but it has panned out to nothing. A friend and I formed SaigonLUG, there is a new HanoiLUG entity as well, but there is relatively little interest in open source software. On a more positive note, there is a very active VietLUG group outside of Vietnam that will play in active role in promoting Linux and OSS to Vietnam with the local language.

Sad Move

[KrisCowboy]

It's not really desirable for a developing country like Vietnam to tie-up it's IT development with Microsoft. Get hooked to Windows and set back your country's progress by a decade? No thanks. Plus, any Windows products with Vietnamese language support yet?

Protesters

[Whatchamacallit]

As far as I could tell from the limited media coverage and digging through blogs most of the protesters were Vietnamese Americans who either fled the Communist Regime themselves or whose parents did. The rest are Vietnam Vet's.

I've personally spoken with one such refugee who escaped to the Philippines and eventually made it to the US. After the US pulled out, he went home and destroyed all of his documentation proving he worked on the US Base as an aircraft mechanic. He watched his neighbors literally disappear overnight! His house was searched and his family threatened. He moved his wife and kids to his mother in-laws and then he fled the country. It took him many years to save up enough money to have his family smuggled out of the country.

Vietnam is guilty of many Human Rights violations, many more of the Vietnamese died when the US pulled out then were killed in the entire war! The country denied having any American POW's but we all know they did.

I think it's despicable that we would open trade agreements with the country. They failed to build their own economy due to the oppressive nature of Communism. So why help bail them out with trade deals? The same with China... I think it's a mistake, China has shown little results from all the investments we've made. They are actively trying to crack down on the formerly free people in Hong Kong and not to mention Taiwan. Again, why do we give money to Communists?!?! We know their economy will eventually collapse just as it did in Russia.

Re:Protesters

[orzetto]

They failed to build their own economy due to the oppressive nature of Communism.

Aside from the fact that freedom has nothing to do with economic development (Stalin, Hitler and Pinochet had all quite good economic results), you have maybe not noticed that the Vietnamese economy is growing faster than the US economy, and not by a small margin (7.7% against 4.4%).
The fact they are still underdeveloped might have some connection with the fact their country was pretty much razed to the ground some years ago.

Re: a sense of irony

[siplus]

shame most of you are spreading FUD, and that it IS NOT that bad in USA right now.

Check your sources for liberal infestation

Re: a sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

um... have you read the Patriot Act??!?

america qonquers vietnam

[Anonymous Coward]

i think this whole story is just the first step of an all-american political masterplan:

phase 1: infest all viet-computer with m$ windows.
phase 2: wait a bit until they all bluescreen.
phase 3: finally conquer vietnam. (something what four score and several years ago, our fathers couldn't achieve-due to the vietnamese lack of windows computers)

This is good news

[Anonymous Coward]

You dont understand. Today its the president, tomorrow his brother will want a massive kickback so MS can sell windows in his district, then his cousin will want a kickback to sell windows in his district. Then his nephews brothers uncle who is the police chief will want his kickback and so on and so on. Before you know it MS is 150 billion in debt to Vietnam!!!

Vietnam Courts Microsoft?

[batlock666]

Fuckie fuckie five dollars?

Meanwhile up the Da Nang River

[nihilistcanada]

How many Windows XP Pirates had I already turned in? There was those six that I know about for sure. Close enough to blow their last breath in my face. But this time it was an American and an businessman. That wasn't supposed to make any difference to me, but it did. Shit... charging a man with software piracy in this place was like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500. I took the mission. What the hell else was I gonna do?

Here's a first

[Anonymous Coward]

'Microsoft' and 'Courts' in the title, but it's not about litigation.

Once they're running windows...

[greendot]

Once everybody over there is running Windows...

Funny thing is, everybody over there already is running windows.

we killed 1 million vietnamese

[Anonymous Coward]

what about our human rights record?

Re:Forget

[br00tus]

Some of the nuclear missiles in Cuba at the time were armed and operational, which was not known in the US at the time. If Kennedy had had the "guts" to invade Cuba, the invading force would have probably been greeted with a few tactical nuclear missiles, which no one doubts would have resulted in a full-scale nuclear war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact.

As far as LBJ's "half-assed effort", LBJ never vetoed a military target, ever. LeMay wanted to bomb dikes so as to starve to death millions of civilians (like he did in Korea) and also carpet bomb Hanoi and kill the civilian population there (like he did to Pyongyang, and ever major city in North Korea, and every major city in Japan in the war before that). So if you mean an intentional massacre of civilians on the scale that the US did in Korea or Japan, yes, LBJ vetoed that because the powers-that-be in the US felt it would be politically harmful to US interests outside of Vietnam.

yeah kennedy had no guts

[Anonymous Coward]

he nearly died in combat in the pacific and saved a bunch of his men at great personal risk to his own safety.

what a wuss

Re:yeah kennedy had no guts

[Anonymous Coward]

It amazes me how Kennedy's propaganda managed to turn his loss of PT 19 into some kind of heroic story.

Great!

[tbcpp]

I don't know about all of you, but I welcome this news! Now whenever we decide to go back into 'nam and to it right, we have any easy way to take down their complete IT systems!

US Computer Hacker: Sir, what virus would you like me to use today for our attack.

General: I don't care, pick a random one from the 100,000 available choices...

ComCap

[Doc Ruby]

Monopolies and Communism - the 21st Century doesn't have to make sense, when it makes dollars. Or dongs.

Birds of a feather...

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft and Communist Vietnam fly together!

Re:Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get traini

[Austerity Empowers]

Cuz your kids school teachers cost about 1000x more.

One MS staff programmer will teach 30 vietnamese natives, who will teach the masses. All for the price of a big mac.

Manichean sense of irony

[guet]

Not a flame here. I want to know. Show us solid examples of this happening on an every day basis and not of foreign nationals without clearance to be here, people who violated the terms of their visas, etc. Show where a natural born American citizen who has not been engaged in terrorism or linked to it has been sent to Guantanamo.

Pure FUD. If it weren't, you would not have been allowed to make your post and have been arrested and sent off to some mythical gulag by now.

I don't live in your country : )

I haven't mentioned gulags or anything of the sort, work camps don't really have a lot to do with prisons. Abuse of rights does not have to happen every day to be serious, and you don't have to be thrown in prison when protesting for rights to be eroded.

As to your fixation with whether this happens to US Citizens or not, measures of repression always start with an easily stigmatised and easily identified group (just now muslims and Arabs), and fan out from there. Links to terrorism now seem to include having the same name, or being religious (the wrong religion of course). You should not be asking 'Will I ever be affected by this?' but asking 'Is this right?'.

I'm not saying this is happening all the time, not at all, but it is now *legal* for your government to lock up anyone without trial on suspicion. I don't think that's a very good idea, and it certainly isn't a 'free country' anymore, not compared to many others.

Re:Manichean sense of irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I find it ironic that those in the EU make this claim in online forums everywhere.
They seem to forget ever since man chiseled in stone a history of the world, that they have systematically raped, pillaged, tortured and murdered the rest of the world. Often they point out the plight of the American Indian, when in fact the Brits took over the east coast, the Spanish took from what is now Florida across to and up the west coast and south into Central America, and the French took Canada and south down into what is now Louisiana. Americans of today either took or purchased it from what are now EU members, after they stole everything that wasn't nailed down. The EU members didn't stop with America either they systematically raped, robbed, pillaged, tortured and murdered, Asia, Africa, Central America etc. I submit to you all that not one Euro in the EU hasn't been stolen from someone else. They're no Gold, Diamond, Oil or any other precious mineral deposits in the EU except coal, yet they are among the richest nations in the world.

Education fixes human rights issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider that countries with atrocious human rights violations typically have severely uneducated population. Microsoft (or any other major tech company) ramping up there will no doubt have a long term good effect on things, just simply because there will be smarter communists.

Oh wait, did I say that outloud?

I thought Linux was communist...

[robertjw]

Amazing, I thought Linux was the communist Operating System that was supposed to undermine capitalism. Now Microsoft is the one making deals with Communist countries.

If Linux is so anti-capitalist why isn't Vietnam looking for Linux solutions?

*Vietnam's* rights record?

[whitroth]

Let's see: the US set up a literal puppet governement in 'Nam in '56; refused to allow free and fair UN-sponsored elections, ran a war that killed 1-2 MILLION Vietnames.

Then, the Vietnamese, *not* the US, went into Cambodia to break the self-proclaimed Communist Pol Pot murdeeers, and the US (under Reagan) supported Pol Pot.

Now the US invaded and conquered Iraq on the baiss of 100% lies, and killed somewhere between 60,000 and 100,000 people, and another 1700+ US troops, and destroyed a country.

Meanwhile, at home, 40 years later, we're trying someone for racist murder; blacks and hispanics are under permanent persecution, and down here in the South, I don't *dare* openly reveal my non-Christian beliefs.

Vietnam's got a bad human rights record?

Oh, sorry, I see they're trying to follow our lead, and, as a start, will put M$ on their computers....

mark

NOT FUNNY: China vs. Vietnam

[Anonymous Coward]

In Seattle, the majority of the protestors that materialized were Americans of Vietnamese ancestry. When Hu Jintao, the president of China and butcher of Tibet, visits the USA, virtually none of the protestors are Americans of Chinese ancestry.

As well, Americans of Vietnamese ancestry are, at representation, in organizations like Amnesty International (AI). In fact, one such person ran to be a board member of AI. By contrast, AI is almost devoid of Americans of Chinese ancestry.

In short, Vietnam will, more quickly, become a liberal Western democracy than China.

Vietnam courts Microsoft

[ArmorFiend]

Today:
Vietnam courts Microsoft
Microsoft courts Vietnam

1990s:
Microsoft "Vietnam"s Courts.

What good is 50k MSCE's?

[SuperKendall]

Who cares if VIetnam has 50k more MSCE's - frankly if I were them I would think that an act of provocation and tell us to cut it out.

Perhaps they'll start a 'Software Reform Campaign"

[mpaque]

This is the same fun-loving government that conducted the 'Land Reform Campaign', in which thousands were executed for the crime of owning land, and tens of thousands of family members died in forced labor 'reeducation' camps.

(Estimates of direct executions range from 5,000 to 50,000, and deaths in labor camps from 50,000 to 500,000. Numbers at the high end of the range are suspect, as they were reported in what appear to be propaganda pieces.)

The government there still operates forced labor police "re-education camps," which provide cheap labor as subcontractors for commercial ventures.

Remember that before you try on a pair of Nikes or Reeboks.

sorry about this....

[Atilla]

we give you software that sucky-sucky, 5 dollah!

Strange...

[Anonymous Coward]

Strange, some people people remember and protest Vietnam's human right violation, but don't protest the way US bomb other countries including Vietnam, and strangle their economies, and encourage terrorism, and put dictators in charge...

Capitalists

[Anonymous Coward]

Take that you capitalist dogs... err wait.

um

[Anonymous Coward]

They're protesting people in Vietnam getting 10 years in prison for sendng email and blogging.

No free press. If you publish something w/o Party approval on paper or the internet, you can go to prison. You just committed a crime with your post, buddy.

Or native tribemen getting harassed in the Highlands. I don't think many of those Montegnards are VN-Americans.

Are you a Catholic, Mennonite, or the wrong kind of Buddhist? Have fun in the mental hospital!!

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/06/17/vietna11151 .htm

Comparison

[4of12]

GDP of Vietnam = US$227.2 billion.

Market capitalization MSFT = US$243.5 billion

Granted, MSFT's income is only about US$36 billion, but they don't have to maintain a country.

And while Vietnam can muster a fairly impressive sized army, MSFT has Steve Ballmer.

I have never never seen...

[Kaenneth]

Anyone explain exactly how not trading with a nation is supposed to improve the lives of it's citizens.

I attribute it to selfishness. People want the benifits without the costs. Cheap products without losing high paying jobs. Well, guess what? In order to have a high paying job, you have to produce something that people will pay a high price for, and if you arn't willing to pay high prices, why would you expect anyone else to?

I figure, for example, once the Indian phone support folks become skilled enough, and their local economy starts to catch up to ours, they will start demanding more pay; or at least be busy enough providing support to other Indians that they'd rather work for a local company than for some U.S. company.

By allowing them to support U.S. consumers, they are being indoctrinated to our culture in a way, learning English, American phone ettiquite, dealing with American companies. I would bet that they dislike dealing with Americans more than we dislike talking to them when we have a problem.

In the U.S. you can have a home, a car, a cell phone, a TV, a PlayStation, etc. and still be considered very poor. Grocery stores discard tons upon tons of slightly blemished food, Charities only accept brand new in the package toys quality clothing and no computers under 500mhz. Gasoline is half the price it is in Europe, and a 7-11 is usually a short stroll away. The excess we have here is almost disturbing.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"; This does not refer just to Americans. Denying the things we hold dear to the peoples of other lands, just because they arn't living on this particular landmass is rediculous. If they, or their government on their behalf, choose not to partake that's fine, but if we show them the best bits of democracy, instead of encouraging un-elected leaders to bad-mouth democratic nations, perhaps in this day and age, non-violent revolution is possible.

Re:I have never never seen...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Free trade" is a mechanism for transferring wealth - real wealth, not paper money - from the weak to the powerful.

Vietnamese Americans

[D H NG]

It should be noted that the 3 million overseas Vietnamese and in particular the 1.2 million Vietnamese Americans are very anti-communist and frequently protest against the Vietnamese government where ever they go.

Re:Vietnamese Americans

[kevmille]

And when no one is looking, they are making business deals with the very same SAME Vietnamese government they are protesting against...

It's Okay

[Anonymous Coward]

It's okay, no really, Jane Fonda said so...

Allow a Vietkieu to fill some details.

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you misunderstood the fact that communism's oppressive effects aren't limited to personal freedoms but also economic activity (it is a system of resource allocation after all). I fled the communist take-over of Vietnam and moved through Cambodia, China, Thailand, the Philipines, and France before settling in the US so my opinion is admittedly biased against communism.

Vietnam's economy grew faster simply because they have a heck of a lot more room for improvement. They are underdeveloped not only because of the American War but also because of the stagnation caused Communism. Japan, Europe and South Korea grew back a lot faster than Vietnam. I've returned to Vietnam many times. Vietnam has improved dramatically only these last 10 years precisely because the ruling party have loosen up the communist controls of the economy. Before the communist eased their tight control of the economy, Vietnam was lucky to get 3% growth (and much of that was just due to population growth). The communist party is still corrupt but they're not as oppressive in their control of personal freedoms as 20 years ago.

As for you counter examples, they're not very pertinent. Of course freedom is important to economic development. Hitler and Pinochet weren't economically oppressive despite their other despotic characteristics. In Hitler's case, Germany was only prospering economically because the Third Reich was looting every country they invaded and using the captives as slave labor. Chile's economic development was the result of economic liberalization and in spite of Pinochet's fascist actions. And I'm not aware of any sort of economic improvements under Stalin.

Re: a sense of irony

[rsynnott]

Really? Ah, Blair won't be too keen on the new EU constitution, then; it prohibits such things. No wonder he was keen to have a referendum...

PM Phan Van Khai meet Bill Gate because of his adv

[Anonymous Coward]

Like in China, Bill Gate is the symbol of success in Vietnam. Most of people in Vietnam, especially The young know Bill Gate. That 's why our PM decide to meet Bill Gate.

Last month, Intel CEO Otellini visited Vietnam, but could only met Deputy PM, despite that Intel sell 80M of chip in Vietnam. MS revenue in VN last year only 2M, but Intel marketing budget in VN is 6M.

But very a few one in VN know Otellini of Intel :-)

Mike Nguyen
Yahoo IM: mnguyenvn

Re:PM Phan Van Khai meet Bill Gate because of his

[XaN-ASMoDi]

apart from this guy does anybody actually know anyone in OR from Viet Nam or are you all just arm chair politicians? http://www.thanhniennews.com/

VietNam and the Cambodia invasion

[HuguesT]

One thing that can be said, in spite of everything, for Viet-Nam is that they invaded Cambodia in 1979, at the height of the Pol-Pot terror reign, while the West was doing nothing to stem the killings that were taking place under that regime.

That pretty much ended the Khmer Rouge madness, which had already killed 1.7 million in a country of only 7 millions! Eventually the Vietnamese army left after about 10 years of occupation and civil war, and elections were held in 1993 in a free Cambodia.

I'm not sure Vietnam's actions were righteous, but they ended up doing the right thing. In a similar vein we'll see what the US invasion of Iraq will lead to.

Re:Happy

[batje]

but there is good news too!
http://news.com.com/Korea+brings+homegrown+open+so urce+to+schools/2100-7344_3-5755892.html

The South Korean government is rolling out a homegrown open-source platform to 10,000 schools in the country.

"The project, called the New Education Information System, is built on a Korean-developed version of Linux that already services 190 schools in the heart of capital city Seoul....

Yeesh

[lorcha]

As an owner of 3 businesses, I must say that you have vastly overstated the requirements to open a business.

You can operate a business as a Sole Proprietorship free of charge. The IRS paperwork in that case is a simple form where you list your income, subtract your expenses, and add that result as ordinary income on your tax return. If you need an EIN, it's a simple phone call to the IRS. The US economy has historically been so robust because it is so easy to do business here.

Are there certain businesses that require a specific license? Yes, of course there are. But the requirements are publicly available. For instance, if you want a license to run a daycare facility, there are certain requirements that you must meet in order to obtain a license. It depends on your locality, but it usually has to do with numbers of kids you can have in your size of a facility, staff-to-kid ratios, etc. You do NOT have to bribe your way into getting a license, in other words.

Huh?

[lorcha]

I'm pretty sure the hippies were against razing SE Asia. You know, "Make Love Not War" and all that. Hippiedom was a direct protest to the war. Hippies should be given credit for working to end it.

Re:Perhaps they'll start a 'Software Reform Campai

[SteeldrivingJon]

I'm not sure I'd mind if they sent Windows' source code to a Re-education Camp for a few years.

"Remember that before you try on a pair of Nikes or Reeboks."

And the Chinese state-run oil company is trying to buy Unocal.

I think we may be getting to the part where we capitalists sell the rope used to hang us.