IGN Talks Games Industry Salaries

WeebMac writes "IGN has a new career-themed section and one of their first stories is about the earning potential available to those who make their careers in the gaming industry. From TFA, 'Beginning programmers, whether you're working on tools, gameplay, networking, audio, AI, or animation, you can expect to start off with a salary in the area of $60K with the potential for more in the way of sales-based royalties or bonuses or stock options depending on the particular company you've been hired by."

Comments

And that $60k goes a long way...

[realmolo]

Because since you'll be working 80 hour weeks, you won't have time to spend it!

As for stock options and royalties...yeah right. Carrot, meet stick.

Seriously, IGN is clueless.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how much time they will spend doing QA on the cheap before they are hired on as programmers and reach that "starting" wage.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Antonymous Flower]

It is in IGN's interest to throw out high numbers. Think about it.. Oh, and spending money isn't everyone's goal.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Spy der Mann]

Because since you'll be working 80 hour weeks, you won't have time to spend it!

Don't worry, these will go to health care in no time! SPECIALLY with 80 hour weeks.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because since you'll be working 80 hour weeks, you won't have time to spend it!

Keep perpetuating these exaggerations of how bad our working conditions are. If you keep scaring away potential new talent, then we veterans of the industry have a little easier of a future because of less competition for our jobs.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Anonymous Coward]

        Because since you'll be working 80 hour weeks, you won't have time to spend it!

Keep perpetuating these exaggerations of how bad our working conditions are. If you keep scaring away potential new talent, then we veterans of the industry have a little easier of a future because of less competition for our jobs.

Your future won't be easy as it will be you working the 80 hour work week instead of us juniors. The only reason why veterans get only 40 hours a week is because us rookies bust our backs to support you.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[I judge you]

80hrs? Try 100+hrs for months at a time. I wish I was joking.

Seriously kids, do something easier that pays better, and make game programming a hobby.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[yddod]

Wow that works out to be about $15 / hour. The last I checked you would make that much an hour working at Home Depot collecting carts in the parking lot! It is not even close to being worth it.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. In my market, $60k is very good (on 40-50 hours, that is). But I would imagine in the markets where the big game makers are, this is not that exciting, particularly for an experience developer.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Anonymous Coward]

$15/hr? Where in the world do you live? Try halving that and you'll still be making damn good money in retail.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[iocat]

Testing usually is a way into production, not programming (not that that doesn't ever happen, of course).

Generally speaking, this article is not that accurate, as are most "salary surverys," where people typically respond with what they *should* be making, not what they do make. Also, he didn't note how long it takes (years -- your whole career, if you're *successful*) to get from the starting salary to the final salary. Nor did he note the salary disparity between developers and publishers. People who work at independent developers typically make less, but have more freedom and input into what they do, versus being "animator 957" or whatever, so it's a tradeoff.

Also, I didn't like the outmoded description of "marketing stiffs" or the cheap shot about producers: "...someone who's merely making schedules, managing the talent, and dealing with the annoying marketing stiffs." Yeah, that sounds easy, huh? Maybe he should try it! Obviously I came from the production side, and I would have liked to see some description of the differences in jobs between different types of producers, but I guess it was just a quick overall survery and not an in-depth thing.

Anyway, IMHO the reality of making games today is a far cry from the shots he takes in the article. If there is an "us versus them" relationship between marketing and development -- or between any develoment disciple (art and engineering, design and production, production and art, etc), your game's sales, sequel potential, and eventually your career are going to suffer. Good teams work together and while there's always friction, it's the job of the discipline leads -- and that worthless producer -- to minimize it. That's not to say there aren't bad marketing people, or irritating artists, or incompetent producers, all of whom suck and make everyone's life difficult, but there shouldn't be this default adversarial relationship there.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Sneftel]

Obvious: If you're a new college grad willing to work 100 hours a week for mediocre benefits, there are companies willing to take you up on your offer.

Not so obvious: If you're a new college grad and are NOT willing to work 100 hours a week for mediocre benefits, there are still companies willing to take you up on your offer. You just need to be good at what you do, and willing to ask for what you want.

Seriously. If there's one group that truly, truly SUCKS at contract negotiations, it's geeks. There's enough money in the industry to pay competent people a good wage, but if you cream your pants at the very thought of EA sticking you in a mildewy basement for $20 a week, that's what you're gonna get.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[badasscat]

Anyway, IMHO the reality of making games today is a far cry from the shots he takes in the article. If there is an "us versus them" relationship between marketing and development -- or between any develoment disciple (art and engineering, design and production, production and art, etc), your game's sales, sequel potential, and eventually your career are going to suffer.

I agree. I worked in marketing for a game publisher for 3 1/2 years (no, I do not consider myself a marketdroid; that's why I quit), and quite honestly there was no adversarial relationship whatsoever between us and the development arm of my company. In fact, our developers liked some of our marketing ideas so much that they ended up incorporating them into the games! (I'm sure at least a few of you guys know what that link is really referencing...)

We also worked with outside developers fairly often and in those cases there was often a bit of push-pull. Depending on the contract, sometimes it would end up being a case of "whatever we say goes", sometimes it was the reverse. (A few times we just had to suck it up and do things we knew were idiotic.) Obviously, when two companies that work together have been doing their thing with success individually for a while, both sides are going to think they know best.

But internally, things were always pretty smooth between the marketing and development sides. And even new acquisitions would get along with us pretty well. The fact of the matter is, if there's dissension at one part of any company vs. another part, that dissension is going to eventually end, one way or another. No company can have an internal rebellion going on at one particular division or another; if necessary, heads will roll and there were times at my company when they did.

And as far as the salaries go, the $60K starting figure is a tad high but not completely ridiculous. Salaries are not the problem in the video game industry. It's the working environment and employee treatment that are the problems.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Drawkcab]

Truthfully, I think they're different career tracks altogether. You can do all the QA in the world, but its not necessarily going to lead to a development job. While you're doing that they'll be hiring developers out of college with the right set of skills.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[KDR_11k]

No, that'd be because a veteran will stand up and tell the guy who ordered him to work 80 hours a week to go fornicate himself.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Nept]

you won't have time to spend it

no, you just end up spending it in daft ways ... like blowing $500 on a dinner or in other equally silly ways.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[poot_rootbeer]

Seriously. If there's one group that truly, truly SUCKS at contract negotiations, it's geeks.

Really? I'd have to put "unskilled laborers" above us on the list.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in the game industry, and the numbers in the article are fairly correct, but only for a handful of successful US companies making high-profile titles.

The game industry is NOT saturated, as opposed to common perception. With the next-gen systems coming in a year, ALL major game companies are expecting to expand their staffs by 200-300%. More artists, more programmers, more everything. Companies like EA or Activision are doing recruiting sprees all over the world.

However, it IS difficult to get into the industry due to the lack of experienced personnels. 99% of those who apply have never programmed a game in their lives, which is understandable since the official dev kits are not publicly available. Those with any real chance to be hired must have a solid understanding of C++, PC hardware, DirectX, OpenGL, string vector math skills, and good communication.

For artists, it's a good idea to brush up on 3D Studio Max, in addition to Maya. Most game studios out there still use Max to some degree, as a full transition to Maya will take years. (rewrite all the custom plugins and tools) Artists/animators from Hollywood are NOT prefered and are generally considered stupid. They need artists with some programming/hardware backgrounds, since they will be generally working cooperatively with a programmer.

Game companies also don't like to hire straight out of college. They have projects on tight yearly schedules, and hiring experienced people can make a world of difference. They much rather dig out a programmer from a competing company for $100K than hiring 3 interns at $30K each.

Game companies generally do NOT work 80 hour weeks, at least not all the time. Development cycle of a games generally take 1-2 years. You will spend half of that doing 40 hour weeks, 20% with 60 hour weeks, 20% with 100 hour weeks, and 10% vocationing.

Basically, before handing your resume to a game company, make sure you are skilled at what you do. (and can prove it) The jobs are out there.

just my 2c

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Duncan3]

Actually, 60k goes a ver ylong way in Asia... which is where all game development is moving to.

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Stokey]

Surely that "no, you just end up spending it in daft ways ... like blowing $500 on a dinner or in other equally silly ways." deserves an "IMHO" tagged on the end.

Maybe not everyone would appreciate the aging process that went into the fine wine, or the artistry with which the chef prepared the dishes, or the knowledge of the sommelier, or the professionalism of the waiters or the extent of the cheese board etc., but you have to ask how is spending $500 on a music player sensible? Or $500 on a jacket, or on a haircut, or on DVDs or on anything that is not essential to survival.

I normally wouldn't care, but you got modded +4 Insightful?! A true waste of $500 dollars would be to roll them into tubes, make small pyre and set fire to it... (unless you're cold of course).

Re:And that $60k goes a long way...

[Nept]

Maybe not everyone would appreciate the aging process that went into the fine wine

It's daft to spend large amounts of money on wine in restaurants. The price markup is usually over 200%. And anyone who thinks an extensive cheeseboard is essential to survival, is also daft.

What I'd REALLY like to know

[halivar]

What's the dollar-to-hour ratio? If you're making $100K and spending 100 hours a week to make it, it's not worth it.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[RailGunner]

Assuming 80 hour work weeks, working 50 weeks out of the year, 60K works out to:

$15 bucks an hour.

Assuming you work 80 hours a week, and you get time-and-a-half overtime, you only need to make $12 an hour. If you're competent, you can make more than $12 an hour managing a Burger King.

For further comparison: Most contractors are able to bill for over $40 an hour, in many cases more than this.

Bottom line is this: If you're working mandatory overtime, there's a line where it'd be better to go sling burgers.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep in mind that that is not taking into account items such as insurance, 401k, and taxes - so your real take home is somewhere probably about $7 per hour.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[baboon]

Keep in mind that you're likely working in a town adjacent to LA or San Diego where the cost of living (food and rent) is literally about double compared to 90% of the country. The multiplier for houses is about 3, with a bottom cap of around 400k, no matter how shabby (a 200k house will cost you about 600k and a 90K house will cost you at least 400k).

The pay for me was about 20% less than I made before and after. Education and other experience means less than your list of published game titles, for which I had none.

Anyhow, adding a divisor of two for cost of living,
80k/(4000*2) = $10/hr, less than the $13/hr I made way back in high school, not accounting for the years of inflation. You could also work out how the increased cost of living screws you on income tax.

The surprising thing is that I never expected that I could work 80 hours a week, but you'd be surprised how they ease it in as you become accustomed. The apparent productivity boosts quickly fade as people wear down, and nearly everyone eventually does less with those 80 hours than they originally did with an easy 50.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[SatanicPuppy]

People throw out the contractor figure a lot. Hell I've billed 150+ an hour for certain types of programming and database work.

That is NOT the same as making $150 an hour, working a full time job. Not even remotely close. You're lucky if you can pull ten hours a week at those rates, assuming you lack big industry contracts, and it's unlikely you'd be able to do THAT two weeks in a row.

And then there is all the work you have to do, but can't get paid for. Marketing, billing, accounting, keeping your own equipment and skills up. Travel time...Sometimes you can bill for it, sometimes you can't. If you can't, then you're talking an hour or so wasted in transit. Nothing worse than having to drive in, and finding out the problem is a user error that takes 5 minutes to fix...Even if you normally bill at a hour minimum, if you charge someone $180 bucks for typing one command, they'll never call you again...I always charged a 40 dollar call fee, but that's not worth the damn time it takes to get there and back.

Freelance is nice, if the work comes in by itself. If it doesn't, it can be hell.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[adam31]

I wasn't aware that Burger King pays benefits. I sure do like all this health care.

Anyway, your assumptions are just way wrong. I'd say I'm pretty typical for a game developer. In my career I've worked probably a total of 10 90-hour work weeks. I'd say 85% of my weeks have been fewer than 60 hours, and that the median work-week is about 50 hours.

Not to mention that there is a lot of intrinsic joy in making games. Solving new and interesting problems constantly. It's like getting paid to solve chess puzzles, including the euphoria of finally producing the solution.

And. I still have time to work out at the gym every day and cook dinner for my girlfriend every night. Simply because you've heard stories about the bad times (which are true), you can't extrapolate that to "80 hour work weeks, working 50 weeks out of the year". That's nonsense.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[RailGunner]

Burger King does indeed pay store managers benefits. Most fast food companies do. Some, in fact, even offer 401k benefits.

Still, working in fast food sucked, and I'm glad I graduated and don't do it anymore (10 years later...).

Solving new and interesting problems constantly. It's like getting paid to solve chess puzzles, including the euphoria of finally producing the solution.

Generally, that's any programming job, which is what is so great about the field.

I live in Texas, I have good friends that work for a major game company in the area. They're LUCKY if they only work 70 hours a week, and they make HALF of what I do, and I only work 40 hours a week.

Why do they do it? Because they love it.

But from a purely financial standpoint, if you're just in it for the money, there is a line where you'll make more money managing teenagers at a fast food place.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[Anonymous Coward]

I am an IT contractor and I work, typically, six month contracts. My contract company pays me $45/hr. I'm not allowed to work any overtime. I have no trouble finding contracts, recruiters call me all the time.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[ecklesweb]

Bottom line is this: If you're working mandatory overtime, there's a line where it'd be better to go sling burgers

Maybe there is a line somewhere, but it's not at $12 or $15/hr. I have to point out that 80 hours a week coding is a damn sight better than 80 hours a week slinging burgers. I did my share of 40 hour weeks at the local Wendy's back in high school, and it was not the ideal work environment - I guess I could do it for 80 hours a week if my life depended on it, but I was pretty tired after a 8 or 10 hour shift.

I know I could handle 80 hours of coding easier than 80 hours of standing. Which would I choose for the same pay? No contest.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[AuMatar]

They even offered health care to us minimum wage peons when I did it a decade ago. Of course, paying for it ate up a large chunk of your salary. Luckily, I was still on my parents.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[GooberToo]

and you get time-and-a-half overtime

George Bush decided that we should no longer quality for over time. Most companies no longer pay overtime to programmers unless the market requires it. Most markets have not recovered to such a state. Fat chance getting overtime. Besides, chances are, we're talking about salaried people, which don't quality for overtime anyways.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[GooberToo]

I've pulled down the big bill rates before too. I have gotten good rates $120 - $180/hr for months at a time before. Having said that, when you're between jobs, that works out to be $0/hr. After you pay for all the other goodies you noted above, the real rate you feel in your pocket at the end of the year is considerably smaller.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[Anonymous Coward]

Might as well just stay in college. A college student interning in the pharmaceutical industry for the summer can make $15/hr for 40 hour weeks as a sophomore.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[chris_eineke]

Why do they do it? Because they love it.

But from a purely financial standpoint, if you're just in it for the money, there is a line where you'll make more money managing teenagers at a fast food place.

Guess what, jackass. Why should I not deserve a marginally higher paycheck writing (entertainment) software than someone managing teenagers at Burger King? (Which boils down to EA's work environment anyways.)

If they truly TRULY loved what they were doing, they would have set up shop and starting doing it for themselves. That's dedication. Dedication is not being hyped into a industry.

This mindset infuriates me. Apparently you have to work for less than minimum wage nowadays to be considered dedicated. What a big stinking pile of horseshit.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[RailGunner]

Guess what, jackass. Why should I not deserve a marginally higher paycheck writing (entertainment) software than someone managing teenagers at Burger King? (Which boils down to EA's work environment anyways.)

Uh, way to completely miss my point there, chief. I'm opposed to mandatory unpaid overtime, which is why I work in a place that doesn't require it very often.

This mindset infuriates me. Apparently you have to work for less than minimum wage nowadays to be considered dedicated. What a big stinking pile of horseshit.

I agree... which is why I write business software. Hm. Guess I'm not a jackass, after all.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[LurkerXXX]

Why is he a jackass? Where did he say it SHOULD be that way? He's just stating the way things are currently at a lot of places.

Oh, I guess you just ASSUMED he was for the status quo. You know about what they say about folks who ASSUME? I guess you are the jackASS.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[AndyG314]

60k is avrage or even good for a recent college grad programer, and lots of non-video game programers work long hours and lots of overtime. It can really depend on your employer.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[KDR_11k]

In most companies you'll work average (40-50?) hours for years and those 60-80 hours only happen towards the end, for a few weeks. If they're constantly doing overtime you should quit immediately and search for a better employer because there are enough of 'em. Some teams even avoid crunch time completely but that's rare. Fortunately, teams that do crunch time for many months or even years are rare, too. That's because it's not sustainable and working like that for prolonged periods (more than one or two weeks, IIRC) reduces your productivity.

Re:What I'd REALLY like to know

[nwbvt]

So you are comparing an entry level job to a managerial job? And you think that is a fair comparison?

Add to that, how many people truly work 80 hours a week? I don't mean those who come home tired and claim they working 10 hours a day, 8 days a week, but who in reality may actually end up in the 60-70 hour range for a few months during the release cycle. I mean those who really are sitting in their cube, working at their computer, for 80 hours a week all through the year, and apparently with only two weeks of vacation and no holidays. I don't think it will be as many as you suspect.

Yeah, I remember that anonymous "spouse of an EA employee" letter that came out earlier this year. $5 says the employee was in reality banging a co-worker in the evenings and then telling their spouse that they were stuck in the office 'working'.

kids!

[rovingeyes]

"If you were to grab any random teenager from one of the midnight launch lines for the latest Halo, Grand Theft Auto or Madden release and were to ask them how much it'd take to pay them to make games, there's a good chance that you'd find more than a few who would tell you that it's their dream to get into development and that they'd do it for free. "

Call it a flame, but am I the only one seeing the stupidity in that paragraph. They are KIDS for crying out loud! Let us see if they still are willing to work for free when...umm... they graduate or have a family. This author is a moron!

Re:kids!

[NotMyNickName]

This author is a moron!

Only the best from IGN.

Re:kids!

[bjorniac]

Same for me - I'm a grad student. I'd do what I do for free, but I have a family to keep fed and housed. People don't seem to realize that vocations aren't done for free - we need to be kept alive!

Re:kids!

[mcb]

Agreed. A random teenager has no idea what is involved in making games. Tedious programming, constantly fixing bugs, trying to write software for an insane variety of hardware, working 80 hours a week until your current project ships, losing your job when your game crashes and burns in the market...

Yeah sounds like a dream job.

Re:kids!

[Anonymous Coward]

there's a good chance that you'd find more than a few [kids] who would tell you that it's their dream to get into development and that they'd do it for free

And you'd get American Idol -- the video game!. Or Survivor -- Life's a Beach, or some other brain-dead, derivative crap.

OTOH, who's to say that isn't what is actually happening?

Re:kids!

[Abedneg0]

The statement in the article is not that stupid. First of all, if you look at the number of adults playing games, it's incredible. Secondly, even if you are not playing games, and if you are a computer science or ECE graduate, the appeal of working for a game company, compared to programming a credit card processing system at a bank is quite high.

On the other hand, the part of the article that I find suspicious is their figure of $60 grand. I spent a summer as an intern at a certain big game company, doing research in machine learning. Granted, that is not a software engineering position, but I would expect that my salary was higher than that of a programming intern. For one, I have a Master's in computer science. With that in mind, the amount of money they paid me was way below $60,000/yr. And from talking to some of my coworkers, this is indeed the situation - the game companies can get away with paying lower salaries just because making games is a cool job. I know that interns get paid less than full-time workers, and I don't have an exact figure on the entrance salary of a software engineer at that company, but I would be very surprised if it were $60k.

Re:kids!

[Anonymous Coward]

you are absolutely correct. I always find these articles stating the average wages to be dramatically higher than anyone I know. I don't know what it is that skews the results, but the salaries reported for any one of these salary surveys seem high to me. No matter who does it or what types of jobs they cover. Either everyone I know is paid low or these figures are always too high.

Re:kids!

[vertinox]

Let us see if they still are willing to work for free when...umm... they graduate or have a family. This author is a moron!

Then they shouldn't have kids then... Sometimes having a particular career means not having a family because you won't be able to support them (that or you wouldn't make a responsible parent anyways).

Look... No one is forcing you to have kids or buy a house or a fancy car. I can live off $20K a year if I wanted to (but I wouldn't want).

If you have dreams follow them. Wait til your 30 to have kids or just not have them at all unless you have some breeder desire. Me... I think I am going to spare the world a few more mouths and get a vasectomy and adopt if I ever settle down.

Don't get me wrong, you can still have your dream career and still have a family, but you have work extra hard for it and give up things that you had before you started to raise a family.

Re:kids!

[hazah]

Then they shouldn't have kids then... Sometimes having a particular career means not having a family because you won't be able to support them (that or you wouldn't make a responsible parent anyways).

I really don't understand how that is at all relevant. At the very least concider that the "kids" the GP mensions already (in the hypothetical situation) exist.

Re:kids!

[jaydonnell]

Let's see if they still want to do it for free when they start doing the math or the coding.

Re:kids!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I have heard of recently-graduated college kids (probably from well-off families) working at places like Blizzard for far less than they deserve, simply because it's Blizzard. Meanwhile the company cuts the pay for the people who actually know what they're doing because it's cheaper to higher a bunch of novices than one skiled programmer.

Re:kids!

[vertinox]

At the very least concider that the "kids" the GP mensions already (in the hypothetical situation) exist.

Then how will an 80 hour work week figure into the equation of raising a family? One chooses to have kids then same as one chooses to work a highly involved job. It is a choice and simply that.

If the kids are already there when you decide to take this career, then that was a choice you made in the past and will weigh in on the choice you make today. Raising a family is a choice and not an infliction. If you have one when you didn't plan one then that was because of your choices to have them or not use protection or what have you. If you have a family here and now, then you deal with it as a responible parent. If you can raise them in a loving family by being an 80 hour a week game developer (or any type of job that has you working 70+ hours a week for that matter) and still have time to have super with you kids, help them with their homework, and be there when they need you then more power to you! And I am sure there are countless people who do this and hats off to them... But when the parents only live for their job and have no time for their kids... That is when the kids suffer and that was the parents fault and they cannot simply get out of the responsibility.

Re:kids!

[Fulcrum of Evil]

A random teenager has no idea what is involved in making games.

A random teenager has no idea what is involved in supporting himself.

Re:kids!

[Rycross]

Where do you live? It could be that different costs of living are what causes the skew. For example, compared to where I live, my $40k salary is roughly $80k in San Francisco. So if you have me, and another programmer in California making roughly the same adjusted wage, and take the average of our salaries, then you'd come up with $60k. That figure makes me seem like I'm being underpaid, but the reality of the situation is that its $60k for certain living conditions in a certain location.

Re:kids!

[Rycross]

I wish I had mod points.

Re:kids!

[h3llfish]

Do you honestly think that the person to whom you replied has an IQ between 51 and 70? Oh no, I see, you were simply name-calling. Lovely. Go tell your wife what you just did, you need a time out

I don't agree with your assessment of the author's intelligence. The fact is that making video games is essentialy "show biz" in some people's minds, and that means that they will make extraordinary sacrifices to be part of it.

As someone who has actually worked for EA (as a temp, but still, they let me inside the redwood shores compound) I can say that many people in their 20's are willing to live in a house that they share with 3 other guys in order to be part of the gaming industry. Plenty of guys in their 30's and 40's, too! This might come as a shock to you, but not all geeks are married.

Not all benefits can be measured in dollars and cents. The fact that they really enjoy the products they create is worth a lot to these people. That's how EA gets away with it. The phenomenon is regrettable, but it happens in all facets of the entertainment industry. People even sometimes do things a lot worse that working like a slave to get in the door at these places. That's Show Biz!

So to ole "rovingeyes", let me say, I'm sorry that you hate your job at Dunder Mifflin so much, and I'm sorry that Peg and the kids aren't grateful, but don't call people names. It's rude.

Re:kids!

[weston]

If you have dreams follow them.

And make sure that you choose a career path that people with money are willing to pay you for.

i.e., not game development, not technology. At least, not working for someone else.

Guys with money like skills. Lawyering skills, creative accounting skills, business negotiation skills....

Re:kids!

[iocat]

It's hard to apple-to-apples compare quality of life. Like, yes, if I lived outside the bay area, I wouldn't live in a slum (although I'd probably still want to live in an old falling down house), but having, like, every one of my friends be in technology is something that might not happen if I worked in Michigan, say.

Honest question

[Anonymous Coward]

If you salary area is $60K, is your salary 244.95?

Re:Honest question

[Soporific]

No, it's $61,440. Or 491,520 cents.

~S

Re:Honest question

[klack]

In fact it is $^(0.5) 244.95.

Re:Honest question

[orasio]

Don't be a square.
You can get that with just a 138.2 salary radius.

Or you can make a crappy half-assed games site

[Radres]

...and make $600 million. I always hated IGN and their half-hearted attempt to make a games site for each and every game that comes out. Nothing could compare to a site made by a dedicated fan, such as Shlonglor's Warcraft 2 page, which was built before this gamespy/ign/daily radar/plan revolution.

Re:Or you can make a crappy half-assed games site

[acvh]

keep in mind that IGN began by acquiring fan sites (n64.com, etc). I agree that now it is an unreadable, unnavigable mess - but if a site like your Shlonglor got an offer to sell out, you can bet your sweet bippy that we'd be going to shlonglor.ign.com for Warcraft 2 news.

Re:Or you can make a crappy half-assed games site

[Anonymous Coward]

At least they didn't get hacked like Gamespot [http://www.gamespot.com/

Re:Or you can make a crappy half-assed games site

[nEoN nOoDlE]

Oh man, I havent thought of Shlonglors site in years. Man, that was the definitive resource for War2 back in the day. Thanks for the ride down memory lane.

Re:Or you can make a crappy half-assed games site

[Buzz_Litebeer]

I made themfb.com (now themfb.net) back in the day, it was very well thought out. But there is no reason to even bother anymore. Sure you can do a lot better job content wise than the big guys, but when someone goes to google and types in mechwarrior or whatnot, they are going to get the super mega dupe sites that are low on content, high on reg fees, but look really fancy!

The only site that I still know of thats completeley fan run that gets almost all traffic for the game is www.mektek.net which NEARLY owns the mechawarrior online community with a small bit in other sites.

I helped that site come to being, and I am still glad it hasnt let itself get bought out. Gamespy made a big bid for all their IP, and luckily they didnt cave and they are better for it.

Re:Or you can make a crappy half-assed games site

[Reapy]

He did.

He works for blizzard and creates many of the strategy pages they create for their games. He goes by Nebu, short for that whole name of the matrix ship that I can't spell :)

Re:Or you can make a crappy half-assed games site

[rascal1182]

keep in mind that IGN began by acquiring fan sites (n64.com, etc).

n64.com was always owned by IGN, although it wasn't apparent until the site became ign64.com. Read the response to the first question:

http://cube.ign.com/mail/2005-09-09.html

Re:Or you can make a crappy half-assed games site

[timeOday]

Sorry I missed your point, but I got stuck at "600 million."

Re:Or you can make a crappy half-assed games site

[Anonymous Coward]

My ... god. Someone invoked the name of that retard! Shlonglor was a grade-A doof.

Wait, were you on Kali? Were you by any chance on the IWL?

Small effin' world, this.

Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[mpapet]

I tend to think the numbers are lying one way or another.

Either it's an EA kind of environment where 60,000K may be cheap for such devotion, or gaming is in the equivalent of the tech bubble.

Un-related but funny story. I have some aquiantances (sp?) here in L.A. that write scripts and they actually get evaluated (paid too) by people who can get movies made. The latest overwhelming reply to their work has been, "It's a great script, but we're really looking for something based on a video game.."

True story.

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[ucblockhead]

Those salaries are typical for engineering in general, at least in San Francisco.

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[Karl Cocknozzle]

"It's a great script, but we're really looking for something based on a video game.."

If they write one piece of crap (say, for instance, a Qbert movie) that the studio can make some money on, they might have an easier time selling them on another, better script when the wind blows and movie trends change... Plus, the world needs another video-game-based vehicle for "The Rock" to star in... Imagine The Rock in "Galaga, the Movie!"

Pure dreck...

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[mpapet]

That the studio can make some money on

That's why they call it show business.

The "art and creativity" part seems to be more of an afterthought.

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[rlp]

It's a great script, but we're really looking for something based on a video game

IT CAME FROM THE SKY!! THE MILITARY COULDN'T STOP IT. ONLY ONE LONE ECCENTRIC GENIUS KNEW WHAT TO DO!! IT'S TETRIS - THE MOVIE

That'll be one million dollars and ten percent of the gross please.

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[Omega697]

That'll be one million dollars and ten percent of the gross please.

Also known as... one million dollars.

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[IANAAC]

TETRIS - THE MOVIE

Sad thing is, I bet we'd all go see it.

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[Riktov]

>>>
Un-related but funny story. I have some aquiantances (sp?) here in L.A. that write scripts and they actually get evaluated (paid too) by people who can get movies made. The latest overwhelming reply to their work has been, "It's a great script, but we're really looking for something based on a video game.."
>>>

bash or perl?

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[mooingyak]

Is that 60K fresh out of school? If so, that's high. If that's for a guy with some experience, that's lowball.

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[Castar]

In all the salary surveys I have seen (and I'm in the industry), $60k is not what your average Entry-level Programmer makes. The industry average is 48-49k (based on last year's Game Developer Magazine survey).

That is slightly less than the IT industry whole at something like $52k (again, last one I saw). That makes sense, though, as people are willing to take a salary hit in order to work on something they enjoy. Game QA positions make something like $8-14 an hour, while regular software QA jobs make much more.

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[SpecBear]

The guys at Penny Arcade have already taken a swing at this one: "SEE THE NEW SHAPE OF FEAR!

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[vsprintf]

IT'S TETRIS - THE MOVIE

No, no. It has to be something with less mental involvement and more action and storyline. I know. We'll make a movie based on Medal of Honor: Rising Sun, and we'll call it Pearl Harbor . . . no, how about Tora! Tora! Tora! ?

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[HAKdragon]

Too bad PA beat you to it.

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[Crunchie Frog]

TETRIS - THE MOVIE

Sad thing is, I bet we'd all go see it.

Don't be ridiculous, of course we wouldn't go and see it. We'd simply download it from some filesharing network.

Pay money for a movie indeed!, grumble grumble

Re:Today 60,000 Tomorrow???

[Anonymous Coward]

it came from the sky!! the military couldn't stop it. only one lone eccentric genius knew what to do!!

I believe they're calling this one Chicken Little...

Into Perspective

[pat_trick]

Nevermind that the "beginning" programmer has likely already worked on many other games, has a solid background in programming of various languages / APIs, and is able to produce solid quality code.

Sounds like they're souping up "beginning" as "I know how to write a cout in C++!".

Re:Into Perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

OMFG...you have no idea how true that is. It reminds me of an acquaintance I had in college. She and I were both in the comp sci program. We took an OOP class with C++ first, and then we took ansi C the following semester. One day I overheard her declare (with conviction, mind you) that C++ was a superior language to C because "cout was so much better than having to use printf".

I have no clue where she is now.

Re:Into Perspective

[JPriest]

Right, that is like selling military service enlistment to someone by saying "well an entry level General will make..."

Re:Into Perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

What a lot of people don't realize is that, like the parent said, a "beginning" programmer on a video game project is probably capable of quite a bit more than writing "a cout in C++!" Infact, they should have a large knowledge base of many different languages, systems, platforms, and hardware, not to mention knowing what's fun and what's not. Game programming (EA aside) isn't usually mindless coding, it's complex problem solving, figuring out ways to develop a fully interactive game for a vast array of players. By the time I graduate university, I will have programmed games in almost every feasable language for doing so, including all types of games, RTS, FPS, Text Based even. In regards to an earlier "If you asked kids in line waiting to buy [Halo]," I'm utterly disgusted. Most video gaming kids THESE days are on the verge of retarded/MTV kiddies. Good day.

Gaming industry is insane..

[xtal]

Nevermind what it will do if you want to have a family life. Done that once, now I'm a freelance contractor and working on my own business ventures. If you go into the games industry looking to get rich as a programmer, you are insane. This is an industry where the peasants (programmers, engineers) REVOLTED. I can't think of another example.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=ea+lawsuit&btn G=Google+Search&meta=

Think about that.

If you're doing it for the love of the art, do it for a hobby. Otherwise, I admire your guts.

Free advice for those of you with mad opengl skills and a mathematics background - double score if you have a mathematics or engineering degree.

- Go read a book on "Data Visualization"
- Go read a book on "Geographic Information Systems"
- Go read a book on "Signal Processing" (FFT, etc)
- Brush up on data structures relevant to the above.

Fire some resumes around to oil companies, insurance firms, financial trading companies, mining companies, etc etc loaded up with buzzwords. Make your programming skills secondary to the buzzwords.

Profit. My $0.02. I paid for my univesity degree writing 3D GIS systems software in OpenGL - had I have tried to do so writing games, I would probably be living on the street.

Re:Gaming industry is insane..

[jinzumkei]

I did both man, Back at school I wrote medical visualization software for virtual reality systems. Sure it paid the bills, but it wasn't as satisfying and the work environment was much more uptight (Researching PHDs aren't the most fun group of people to work with).

Now, I work in the game industry and my hours are extemely flexible and the atmosphere is much more laidback. I find that the quality of work I am doing is much better now that I am happy. I make a very good wage (I'm not rich, but I never have to worry about money) and always seem to have the time to take vacations and such. So hey, I guess there's 2 sides to every coin.

Re:Gaming industry is insane..

[xtal]

Not arguing the environments are different.

However, if you want to make lots of money, you are much more likely to do so (in my opinion) in another graphics and math intensive field, expecially one dripping with money like oil exploration than an industry filled with easily exploitable younger adults willing to work insane hours, and a new crop of them appearing yearly.

Re:Gaming industry is insane..

[autophile]

This is an industry where the peasants (programmers, engineers) REVOLTED.

"Chief Officer! Chief Officer! The programmers are revolting!"

"Yes, I know, that's why I don't let them into headquarters."

--Rob

Re:Gaming industry is insane..

[jinzumkei]

I agree, but it's worth it to me to give up some pay for the amount of flexibility and the laid-back evironment I have now.

I do understand that the perception is taht everyone in this industry is overworked though, because you only hear about the extremely bad cases (EA). You can measure the amountof hours a person work but how do you measure the satisfcation some one has while on the job? All of my peers love their work and make a good wage doing what they love. What more can you ask for?

I'm not saying it's like pulling teeth to work in other fields, if you love it, then more power to you, but for me, the game industry just fits.

Re:Gaming industry is insane..

[justins]

. This is an industry where the peasants (programmers, engineers) REVOLTED. I can't think of another example.

Not a student of the labor movement and its history, eh?

In Finland...

[metalmario]

You can expect to get something around 30000e/year, if you are programming games for mobile phones. And pay ~24% taxes. And everything is more expensive in here than in the States.

Re:In Finland...

[Anonymous Coward]

At least you don't have fat women in Finland.

Re:In Finland...

[metalmario]

We have our share of those, too. Perhaps not all are fat, but they are annoying, nagging, stupid, and very scared of everything. And envious. And gossip a lot. And speak in riddles. Perhaps they just watch too much TV. Or something.

Re:In Finland...

[Anonymous Coward]

... games program you!

er, wait...

Re:In Finland...

[Anonymous Coward]

Only 24% tax in Finland? That's amazingly low. Here in Holland some are talking of a flat rate system of... 44%...
At the moment the lowest bracket is 33% (there's no 0% bracket, but there is a standard tax return), then 42% and 52%.

Re:In Finland...

[Anonymous Coward]

"holland" doesn't have it's own tax system, but the Netherlands does.

Re:In Finland...

[Ced_Ex]

We have our share of those, too. Perhaps not all are fat, but they are annoying, nagging, stupid, and very scared of everything. And envious. And gossip a lot. And speak in riddles. Perhaps they just watch too much TV. Or something.

And that is different from women anywhere else around the world in what way?

Re:In Finland...

[Krach42]

Dude, like Holland == The Netherlands in English.

Plus, the guy is FROM Holland/The Netherlands, who are you to argue with him?

This is like where in High School, I had a German teacher argue with a Slovakian student about "in der Slovakei" (to Slovakia). The German teacher told her that it's "nach Slovakei" like every other rule-following country name. And the student, who learned German in Slovakia, and should have god-damn good reason to know this, insisted that it was one of the irregulars like "in den Nederlanden", "in den USA", and "in der Schweiz".

Did the teacher listen? No, because she wasn't paying attention to credentials just like you.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[hal2814]

It depends on where you live. In my neck of the woods (NE GA), $60k goes a long way. Out where most game programmers are located (CA coast), I'd hate to try to live off of that. When you're taking home $4000 a month (after taxes) and spending $2500 on rent or a mortgage payment, it doesn't look so good.

Waste of time.

[MetalliQaZ]

You're more likely to be a pro athelete than to be a game dev. Unless your diet centers around cheetos and mountain dew. In that case you have no chance at either.

-d

Re:Waste of time.

[Duhavid]

Ah! The staples of life! Cheetos and Mountain dew.

Re:Waste of time.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a game dev. I'd like to believe my job was easier to get than what a pro athlete might go through. In fact, I think my game development job was easier to get than any other engineering job I've applied for.

Re:Waste of time.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. I got my first game dev job a week after I got my degree, holding a .NET web-app beforehand. If a person is finding it hard to get into the games industry, I say s/he just doesn't have the required skills. If you know your stuff, and you're passionate about games, it's not that hard to find a job.

.. Just be careful where you go ;)

/me vows to never work for EA.
/me is quite happy working for a small(er) company where I work 40hrs a week, with the 50hr week coming into play every once in a while, at $60k in my second year as a game dev.

I stopped reading at...

[nharmon]

as it's the engineers at the various game companies that are driving the Ferrari's, Mercedes SL500's, and Lamborghini's.

First of all. How many engineers are game companies are driving top-end sports cars? And second of all, how many could afford them?

I mean, making $100,000 and driving a Lambo would probably mean parking it in front of a 1 bedroom apartment... and hoping someone doesn't walk along and key it.

Re:I stopped reading at...

[djwavelength]

If they replace "engineers" with "executives", the sentance makes sense.

Re:I stopped reading at...

[sfontain]

> I mean, making $100,000 and driving a Lambo would probably mean parking it in front of a 1 bedroom apartment... and hoping someone doesn't walk along and key it.

I highly doubt that.

Re:I stopped reading at...

[Anonymous Coward]

>> I mean, making $100,000 and driving a Lambo would probably mean parking
>> it in front of a 1 bedroom apartment... and hoping someone doesn't walk
>> along and key it.

>I highly doubt that.

That's because you're inexcusably stupid.

Re:I stopped reading at...

[snarkh]

More likely you will be living in the street. Remember, you will have to pay for insurance and repairs on it as well.

Re:I stopped reading at...

[lowe0]

I don't. I make a hell of a lot less than 100k, and my idea of buying a nice car was a new Mustang (not even a GT, at that). Anything top-end is way out of my league, and I don't think 100k would put me into it, even if I kept living in my crappy apartment.

Re:I stopped reading at...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, autotrader.com shows some early 90's diablo's with 30k miles on them for 100k. With the right loan, you're looking at $1000 per month or maybe less. $100,000 per year means you bring home like $6k or $7k a month...plenty of money for a Lamborghini.

Re:I stopped reading at...

[SeattleGameboy]

Highly unlikely...

I've worked in hi-tech for many years, including many years designing games. I can honestly say, if making money was your main objective, game industry is about the worst you can pick. The chances of a game that you created/worked on becoming a big success is as rare as publishing a best-seller.

There are literally thousands of games that come out every year. And only a handful make any real profit (including big guys).

Being it more art than science, even if you put the best talent doing best they can, it certainly does not guarantee that they will succeed (market taste is very fickle).

You can make FAR greater and easier money creating a niche tool for a banking industry than toiling for years in games.

Re:I stopped reading at...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ferrari's, Mercedes SL500's, and Lamborghini's

I don't get it. Apparently, you cut and pasted that line from TFA but decided to add a bunch of spurious apostrophes? Or did you actually retype all of that? In either case, why?

Re:I stopped reading at...

[autophile]

as it's the engineers at the various game companies that are driving the Ferrari's, Mercedes SL500's, and Lamborghini's.

First of all. How many engineers are game companies are driving top-end sports cars? And second of all, how many could afford them?

They drive them in games.

--Rob

Re:I stopped reading at...

[GooberToo]

IIRC, insurance on a car like that works out to be in the ball park of $1000 - $1500 a month. Just playing with some numbers, now, you're spending $2500/mo on a car. Want a nice place to live? In my town, a moderately nice yet basic one bedroom is going to run you ~$800-1200/mo, depending on the location. And when I say moderately nice, I don't mean anything fancy. I mean just a basic apartment with maybe a gate, a pool, and free basic cable/Internet access. Now you're at $3200 - $3700/mo. You've yet to buy gas, pay for food and clothes, utilities, or even the basics of life. Let's say you put 10% into your 401K. Now your take home of 7K/mo is 6.3K. After your car and apartment (no utilities yet or the basics of life, and no gas for your car). You now have roughly $2600 to pay for everything else.

Ahh, but wait...gas mileage is 8-11mpg. But hey, you bought it to have fun. That puts the mileage at roughly 5-7mpg. Let's call it 6. At 3.10g, estimated 32 miles to work (just saw the average in my area on the news the other day), that works out to be ~600+/mo in gas. But wait, being fine machinery that it is, expect to pay another $1000 - 1500/mo to keep it tuned up (I knew an owner, that was his claim for frequent driving). Total so far, $2100/mo.

All together, that leaves you roughly $500/mo to pay for utilities ($300/mo), plus food. I guess if you were really, really stupid and really, really wanted to drive an exotic, and can live on $200/mo of food, and run around naked, you could do it.

Long story short, only an absolute idiot would attempt to own AND DRIVE a car like that on a $100,000/yr income.

I actually knew I guy that did all this to own a vet. His income was in the (best guess) 60-70k range. He had no life and all of his money went to pay for his car, apartment, and the basics of life. He had no real money left in his pocket at the end of the month and he lived alone.

Re:I stopped reading at...

[poot_rootbeer]

I mean, making $100,000 and driving a Lambo would probably mean parking it in front of a 1 bedroom apartment

Making $100,000 and driving a Lamborghini would probably mean LIVING in a Lamborghini. And not being able to afford fuel or insurance for it.

Re:I stopped reading at...

[snarkh]

Affording fuel should be no problem. As long as you don't eat.

Re:I stopped reading at...

[nharmon]

I don't get it either, haha. I wonder how that happened.

Pardon?

[MaestroSartori]

I don't know about the US, but I'm a gamesprogrammer in the UK with 4 years or so games experience for a mix of companies.

My starting salary was £20k (somewhere around $35k-40k US I think), which is at the upper end of the starting range in this country. I've known people who worked in smaller companies in lower cost-of-living areas who started on much less.

Most companies that I've known staff at do *not* offer shares, or royalties, or even bonuses. Bonuses, where offered, are by no means guaranteed - I've never had one. I've worked on a finished game for which I might've received royalties, but you don't get them til at least a year after the game is released (and the company went bust before the game was released, lovely!), and there's no guarantee that the contract with the publisher will be such that the staff ever see any royalties even if the company does.

I've never worked for them, but the majority of games companies at least in the UK make GB/GBA/Mobile-phone games, not the big console titles. Even the big players (Rockstar spring to mind) don't pay out regular bonuses on time or at all.

Why do I still do it? Well, now I'm working at a decent company (Sony, if you're interested), I get to make *games* god damn it, it's fun! :)

If anyone has any more questions about working in games, feel free to reply :D

Re:Pardon?

[FortKnox]

Keep in mind that location is a big factor.
Someone making $60k in the midwest... is a great job and can support a family.
Someone making $60k in LA (more likely for gamining companies) and you are living in a small apartment unable to support a significant other.

Re:Pardon?

[MaestroSartori]

Indeed - 20k is a decent wage in the UK for a graduate (not for a CS graduate maybe), but it was in one of the most expensive parts of the country (right next to London) where I literally couldn't afford to buy a house, and rent was 75% of my wage each month :(

Re:Pardon?

[brainboyz]

I'm calling out your bullshit! I make $50k/year as a programmer in Orange County (high cost area). I can afford a decent 1 bedroom apartment (700 sq feet), investments, 401k, health & dental insurance, my truck, 2 motorcycles (track and street), and a project car. If I cared to for some reason, I could have my girlfriend move in and only money she'd need to contribute would be anything to go out shopping with.

It's not a high-end life, but it's certainly not "scraping by" nor is it in a bad area (I live 15 minutes from work). That seems to be the norm for this area.

I will agree that if I were making this much in the midwest, I'd own my own home by now but that's the price of gorgeous weather, women, and scenes.

Re:Pardon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes, the company that advertises for 3D graphics programmers, only to switch them onto AI because "they want the most qualified graduates to work on AI". Nice one Sony.

Re:Pardon?

[cliffski]

Yeah well said. I have received a (small) bonus on a 3 year game, but nothing to write home about, and the games I write in my spare time now bring in more money than the day job. The sad thing is, the idiots running games companies think that getting graduates of minimum wage is a cost saving, whereas its a stupid business move. Those graduates have zilch experience and flounder around aimlessly, which is why big games take 3 or 4 or even more years to make. Give me a bunch of highly paid and motivated experienced coders with 2 or 3 big titles under their belt and you could watch dev time drop by 50% easily. Pity the suits arent clued up enough to realise this.
Some times I think the industry is really trying as hard as it can to encourage experienced, competent engineers to leave and do their own thing.

Re:Pardon?

[bigdogs]

I think you missed the grandparent post's point. At $60K/yr in most of the midwest, you can buy a standard 3BR/2BA house and have an entire family live in it supported by a single wage earner. In Orange County (where I live as well), the salary needed to buy a median-priced home is $120K/yr, and that's with one of those interest-only loan gimmicks.

I do agree with you as well that not being able to afford a house is more than offset by the gorgeous women, great weather, and all there is to do here.

Re:Pardon?

[Mongoose]

I work in OC, yadda yadda, etc -- the same as you guys. In fact I prob even work at the same company. ...so are we going fire up the game server tomarrow after hours? =)

Re:Pardon?

[Anonymous Coward]

My starting salary was £20k (somewhere around $35k-40k US I think), which is at the upper end of the starting range in this country.

That's rather less than the average starting salary for a programmer, which is about 25k, and the average for IT overall in the UK is 32k

Re:Pardon?

[cttforsale]

I really enjoy Burnout and Burnout II. Nicely done...

Seems High

[captainbeardo]

According to the diversity report from the IGDA http://www.igda.org/diversity/report.php the average salary is 58K, but that's with the average time in the industry at 5.6 years. So it would seem to me that the average starting salary would be less than the 60K they are quoting.

Also, due to the incredible supply of people that want to work in the games industry you'd expect the average salary of a game software developer to be less. I know in the company I work for starting SW developer salary is around 55K right out of college. In any event, it seems that their numbers for SW engineers is a bit high.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Overzeetop]

You'd better hope he gets paid more than average. I mean, at least NFL players get a large salary (min is $180k this year?) for a job that effectively burns them out completely in 10 years or less (exceptions exist, of course).

The worst thing is that this kind of hype will draw more moths to the flame of $$$, ignoring entirely the quality-of-life considerations kids should be considering.

Oh, and yes - it's almost impossible to teach kids the valuse of time off, family, and job satisfaction. I was lucky that I chose a career that paid resonably and was way-cool. Down side was that there are only a few places in the US where I could find gainful employment - and very few are really nice places to raise a family. So I got a second degree, switched careers (a laterl shift really, not a radical change), and found a fantastic place to live. I'm just happy I figured out the game before I was 35.

Cool vs. $$

[LukePieStalker]

And how many late nights and Sundays is the beginning programmer (read: "lives alone, has no life") putting in for their $60K?

This is one of those jobs, like publishing or broadcasting, that benefits from the perceived cool factor. Better to get yourself a corporate database programming job, start at $15K more per year, and have weekends.

Re:Cool vs. $$

[acvh]

I would have to assume, as well, that an entry level game programmer has exactly zero input into the game design, gameplay mechanics, storyline, etc. He's going to be told to write some code to simulate this or that physical effect (blood, tire wear, beach erosion, etc.) No fun there, and no game playing either.

Get a job working for a big company writing code for an in-house application, and you'll probably get to play UT or HalfLife with the rest of the IT department.

Re:Cool vs. $$

[foobari]

what the &^#@%$ were you thinking. Rule #1 of DBA jobs is don't talk about DBA jobs. Now back to the topic - I think people should go be games programmers.

Re:Cool vs. $$

[Doctor Memory]

Yep. With everybody in a separate training room, using the projector to fill out that 110" screen, sound pounding through the 5.1 Onkyo presentation set-up -- after shutting down the Oracle instance on the development server to free up the CPU and network, of course.

Re:Cool vs. $$

[orderb13]

Yeah, if everyone knew how easy it was to do DBA jobs and how much you got paid for them, then EVERYONE would want to be one. Except me, because I like being a code monkey more than being a DBA.

Re:Cool vs. $$

[karnal]

"big" companies would most definitely frown on playing games during work hours.

Re:Right, right!

[mister_llah]

On top of any work they had to do before touching code, like quality assurance and testing...

60K?

[StandardDeviant]

Shit, from what I've heard from friends in the industry, it's more like 30-35k. (Most them living here in TX, with a fairly average cost of living on the national scale. [at least the cities where these folks were -- austin, dallas, and houston -- are within 10% of the national average last I checked... it's surely cheaper to live in places like Crockett or Buda or Nacogdoches or whatever, but you don't find many games studios in places where the time zone is still "1952".])

Re:60K?

[Anonymous Coward]

lol, time zone 1952 ... love it

Not Worth It to You Maybe

[OctoberSky]

My cousin is a Pastry Chef. He has to put in 80 hour weeks for no more than $35,000, and that's being generous. And he has the off-set weekend of Sunday and Monday, that's when he gets a 2 day weekend.

But he loves it, so the days go by quickly.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Anonymous Coward]

Starting at $60K US? Aaaahahaha!

Maybe on the California coast or in New York, where the living expenses are high enough that you *have* to pay like that to get anybody at all.

In Vancouver, which is a pretty expensive place to live for Canada, a good starting salary for a game programmer is more like $40k CAD.

Remember the EA guy?

[quibbs0]

Do you all remember the story about the EA Sports programmer who was working the 70,80, and 90 hour weeks with endless promises? I don't remember the details exactly but he said he was getting paid really well but basically had to blow off the rest of his life and then they ended up screwing him in the long run. His wife filed a lawsuit and I think perhaps a class action was being spoken of by other employees that were scared to speak out.

$60,000 and no time to spend it? Awesome. Atleast you can hope that some hot chick sees you in your fancy ride on your way home at 10 PM at night.

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[erik umenhofer]

EA settled for like 15 mil in back pay for unpaid overtime

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[bleckywelcky]

I've got news for everybody. Unless you want to live your entire life deep in debt and only make the monthly payments, then $60k is not that much money. Even with a reasonable amount of debt, the best you can afford with that is a small condo and a 2 year old Honda. And that's if you do nothing else with your money. And if you want to live completely debt free, you're looking at renting a shitty studio apartment and driving that 1982 Civic for the next 10 years. People who make $60k don't run around in Beemers as they pull up to their 4000 square foot estate. Unless they live in some 3rd world country or something. Or if they're married to someone else who also makes $60k.

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[Anonymous Slacker]

Having been a softare engineer for the past 5 years (straight out of college, $52-64K/year. not the games industry, but still in tech), I think I have a fairly good idea of what one can do on 60K/year.
Living in the suburban Chicago area, things aren't cheap, but it's not (quite) the most expensive area to live.
So long as one isn't inclined to go out on constant spending sprees or clubbing constantly, it isn't that difficult to live a comfortable life on that salary.
Unless you're great with investments, don't expect to have the big house and the beemer in the driveway. But one or the other is not out of the question. So far I've purchased 2 cars, but am still renting (one car at $14k immediatly after graduation, the other at $35k last year, and it's 1 month from being paid off). My roommate has purchased a $25k car and a 2-bedroom condo in that same amount of time (I rent from him, it works for us).
Yes, I still have some student loans and minor credit card debt, but nothing unmanageable. My roommate is still paying on his car, but he also has a mortgage as well, but nothing crazy either.
The only costs we share are on rent/morgage and household utilities, and it averages about $650/month total. It wouldn't matter to me if he didn't work in the same company and make the same salary as I do, so long as his contributions keeps my rent at a decent level. We don't live extravagantly, but we've never had to scrape by either on a 'measly' 60k per year.
So long as one is willing to live within their means and not harbor unrealistic expectations of wealth, it is a good enough amount to get by. I see plenty of beemers in the parking lot at work. I'm not sure how many go home to 4000 sq ft mansions at the end of the day, but I'm sure some go to more modest dwellings.

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[bleckywelcky]

Well, considering that your rent/mortgage and utilities is only $650/month, I'd say your statement of "things aren't cheap" is rather off. I pay almost $800/month for a 1 bd / 1 ba apartment in a low income area. About 1 mile north of me a studio goes for $1k/month minimum, apartments start at about $1.2k. Now, this is probably on the other end of the spectrum in that is one of the more expensive areas to live, but it's not the most expensive.

Still, my original statement is fairly accurate of your situation "Even with a reasonable amount of debt, the best you can afford with that is a small condo and a 2 year old Honda." ... Although I have no clue how you afforded a $14k car at graduation, unless you had your parents paying for part of your college. But everyone isn't that lucky and some of us have to survive on our own.

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[Anonymous Slacker]

The $650/month housing costs is my half of the rent/utilities (my roommate pays at least as much, plus taxes, since he bought the condo. I'm just renting from him). Single bedroom apartments in my area go for $800-1200/month + utilities as well. I could easily live on my own without severe impact to my financial sitation (I did it for my first 2 years), I just like having extra spending money for computers and video games, so I have a roommate.
As for how I got the car at graduation, I'd managed to save $1000 during 4 years of college which went for the downpayment, and I found a dealership that was willing to take a chance on me given that I already had an offer of employment for my current job, so they let me off with a 5-year, 13.9% interest loan on the rest of the car.
So, not only was I in debt $20k+ for school, I now had a $14k car loan to go with it within 2 weeks of graduation.

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[bleckywelcky]

Hmm, well there's some misunderstanding here ...

So far I've purchased 2 cars, but am still renting (one car at $14k immediatly after graduation, the other at $35k last year, and it's 1 month from being paid off).

I now had a $14k car loan

You mean the bank bought the car for you, I assumed you bought the car yourself and was wondering where you came up with $14k through college. I don't consider a $1k down payment and $13k in debt as something I "own". Just the same as I don't consider $50k down and $250k in debt on a house as something I "own". And actually, quite a few mortgage laws look at it the same way - the lender owns the house until the debt is fully paid. Don't make a payment? There goes your car ... house ... boat ... etc. If you really owned your house, then how come the bank is foreclosing on it and selling it to someone else?

It's for that exact reason that I'll pay $4k (cash, as in I bought it, not the bank) for a car, drive it for 2 years, then sell it for $3k. Buy another for $4k and repeat the process (and adjust as necessary ... $8k/$6k, etc). I always own the vehicle and don't lose $3k/year (or more) for buying a shiny new car whose value drops like a rock. Although around $10k, depreciation doesn't hit you TOO hard, and I guess you might still have some warranty remaining. How much is that $35k car worth today? Not how much you would sell it for, but how much would anyone actually be willing to give you? Whatever it is, I can assure you it'll be below blue book. Nobody pays blue book anymore - the used car market is insanely flooded. That's why you can pick up 2005 sedans with 30k miles on them for under $10k. Only suckers buy new cars.

Not that borrowing money is always bad. You can borrow money for a house, sit on it for a year or two, and absorb the profits from the sale. But that doesn't generally apply to vehicles.

And I just find this statement odd: they let me off with a 5-year, 13.9%

Let you off? 13.9%? Wow. Money, down, the, drain. A shiny new car isn't essential for life. Save up your cash, stop wasting money on interest payments, make some wise investments, and you'll be a million times better off 10 years down the road. I know our society is all about spend spend spend, 2nd, 3rd, 4th mortgages, lines of credit, balance transfers, etc. But just fight it. Don't give into the hoopla. You'll thank yourself later on in life when you're vacationing in Europe 5 weeks out of every year because you're not up to your eyeballs in debt just trying to scrape by month-to-month.

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[Anonymous Slacker]

Upon graduation, I decided I'd had enough of the $500 curbside special used cars available (I'd already gone through 2 during college, each lasting less than a year of mild use), so I picked up a reasonable USED car at $14k which would last me until I wanted to replace it without putting my mechanic's kids through school.
And having graduated with $1500 to my name, I figured not paying full price all-at-once on the car was a good idea, especially considering I still had to make a security deposit on an apartment, and pay for food and gas for the next month before I got my first paycheck. That car was paid off in 2 years instead of the 5 the bank originally signed me for, so while I did have to suffer for a bit, it wasn't for as long as you're trying to make it sound like.
With regards to my new car, it's utterly irrelevant how much someone would be willing to buy it for now. I'm not selling it, and unless something extreme happens to me in the next 5 years, I'm not selling it for a long time anyway. I don't care if it's currently worth less than the $25k down-payment I put on it 15 months ago, I'm not looking to recoup that money ever.
I don't buy food and clothing as an investment option when I know I am going to eat/wear them, why would I buy transportation as an investment when I'm going to be driving it to hell and back on a regular basis? If that were the case, I would have a 2 or 3 year old beemer that sits in the garage, not the car that I wanted and the freedom to go where I want when I want.

Some people look at cars and houses and see investments and lists of expenses.
I look at them and see freedom and responsibility.
If I were as paranoid about money and return on investment, I'd have bought a new-construction condo in a downtown highrise and be a slave to public transportation if I ever wanted to leave my 800sq-ft studio hovel as I wait for it to appreciate in value. That may be what other people want out of life, but it's not what I live for. So long as I can live within my means while putting a little away on the side for the future, I can be happy without drowning in debt.

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[bleckywelcky]

Well, maybe it's just different mentalities, but I don't understand one bit how someone can wash $35k (plus interest) down the sink and not care. If you really are driving the car to hell and back, and you don't want to be worrying about a high mileage vehicle, then 5 to 10 years down the road the car situation is going to present itself again. You'll sell it for a couple $k but then what? Another $35k car? I'll say the $14k car was not a bad decision. But the excess $22k could be spent in so many better ways. Perhaps get into a house a couple years sooner than you expected, or whatever.

And food/clothing is hardly comparable to a car. You can't survive without food, and you can't get through society without clothes. However you can survive perfectly fine with $10k cars if all you are doing is commuting to work. If you have a farm or something else, sure that's a different story.

And as far as a car and house as representing "freedom" exactly how free are you when you're making mandatory monthly payments on them?

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[Anonymous Slacker]

Well, maybe it's just different mentalities

I'm pretty sure that's the misunderstanding of this thread. Both of us raise valid points (some more sensible, some more visceral), but they are still opinions.

I don't understand one bit how someone can wash $35k (plus interest) down the sink and not care

I don't look at is as a wash. I'm getting something for my $35k. I'm getting a reliable (albeit expensive) form of transportation that will last me several years.

5 to 10 years down the road the car situation is going to present itself again.

In 5 to 10 years, I'll see what my life situation is, and worry about the car then. At that point, it'll have been 3.5 to 8.5 years since my last car payment, so I ought to have a good amount in savings for the next one. I might pick up that sexy little sports coupe, or I might be married with kids, and looking for an inexpensive minivan.

you can survive perfectly fine with $10k cars if all you are doing is commuting to work.

Once again, a valid point, but I don't only commute from home to work and back. Considering I spend an average of at least an hour per day on the road (that's just the home/work commute), and often much longer if I'm travelling (3-8 hours each way, at least every couple months), I wanted a vehicle with a few more creature comforts than are found in most $10k cars, and without the risks/upkeep costs inherent in a used/older vehicle. I did that my first 4 years with the $14k car.

And as far as a car and house as representing "freedom" exactly how free are you when you're making mandatory monthly payments on them?

Car == "freedom"; House == "responsibility"
My car gets me to where I want to go when I want it to, and by paying off the loan a couple years before it's due, it puts a quick end to the "mandatory monthly payments," which I believe was one of the points of my first post (though it may not have been explicitly articulated).
As for a house, I do not own - I bought the new car instead and started renting from my roommate when he bought the condo. I have no reason to be tied down to this area, and the only reason I live where I do is because of my job. Given the nature of the tech industry the last 4 years of constant layoffs and/or questionable opportunities, I haven't come up with a good excuse for committing myself to an expensive area I wouldn't have lived in if it hadn't been for the job in the first place.

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[bleckywelcky]

My original estimate of your car's life was based on a minimal amount of driving, around 10 miles a day for work. But with at least an hour per day, I would assume you're on the highway for at least part of the time, and with the rest on surface streets you should still average 50 mph. So that gives you 50 mi/day * 5 days/week * 50 weeks = 12500 miles just for work. Add in an average 5 hour each way trip every 2 months ... 10 hours * 60 mph * 6 trips/year = 3600 miles. In 6 years you'll be at 100k miles. Sell the car off for $5k, and you just spent $5k/year on a car. Whereas sticking with $10k cars every 2 years, you can probaby bump the cost down to $1.5k/year (not to mention insurance). That's $3.5k/year in your pocket ... the equivalent of a 5% raise if your salary is $60k. And the thing that cinches the deal (and why I'm even spending time arguing my side) is that you can get 2005 sedans, fully loaded, with 35k miles for $10k - we're talking practically new cars with low miles for 70% off the price ... not some junker curb-side special. They even come with full warranties on them if you buy them from a dealer. So you spend no more on upkeep than you would with a new car.

This whole situation is a result of the 0% financing and factory price deals that have been running for the last couple years. The used car market is completely flooded and deals are everywhere. But that's not the point of this discussion anyways, just one example. The point was the mentality of always borrowing to spend. CCs with balances, home loans, car loans, lines of credit, hard money, financing for your couch, bed, TV, computer, pool table, etc ... it's everywhere and tons of people do it. But they spend a lot of time in debt. I guess we're back to the different mentalities thing where some people just don't care if they spend their whole life in debt as long as they live comfortably.

I, personally, dislike that idea and have lived my entire life (so far, still pretty young) with 0 balance on my CCs and cars that I own (and I've been pretty happy, it's not like I'm just hoarding money and never doing anything). Although I do have my student loans (but those were unavoidable, I needed to get my degree to get my job), they'll be paid off very soon so I can stop wasting money on the interest.

I dunno, it just doesn't make sense to me, but I guess I shouldn't really care too much. Because in the end if everybody else over-extends their finances so they are living only a few pay checks ahead of the schedule, then I'll be more likely to get better deals by picking up (for cash) where others have dropped the ball. I won't be the guy driving the BMW or wearing the rolex, but I'll be living damn comfortable, debt free.

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[Anonymous Slacker]

I won't be the guy driving the BMW or wearing the rolex, but I'll be living damn comfortable, debt free.

Debt free is definitely the best way to live.
I may have splurged on the car, but that is the only thing I have gone extravagant on in the past few years. (unless you count $1-2k/year on computers as extravagant, but this being /. I might be behind the curve on that one)
Which brings us back to the original idea of the thread. It is entirely possible to get by on a given salary, so long as one doesn't overextend his means.
After my final car payment, I will be down to less than half of my original student loans (after 5 years) and a perpetual balance of $1k on credit cards (only because I keep taking continuing education classes at the community college), with no other debt to my name. And without a car payment, no mortgage or excessive credit debt, I highly anticipate the student loans won't last to see their 6th anniversary.
99% of my purchases are cash or debit, the credit cards only come out in instances where the risk is more than I'm willing to assume on my own -- usually for internet purchases. I prefer not to give my checking account information out to unknown companies when I can use a credit card with a very low spending limit.

As to why I didn't go looking for another used car a year and a half ago, was because there wasn't anything majorly wrong requiring replacement of my old one, and, like all people, every once in a while something comes along that catches my eye and incites my passion. For me at that time it happened to be a brand new model of car, something that would meet all of my anticipated needs and offer that little bit more that I couldn't get out of my previous car. A car that wasn't available until I put my money down and placed one of the first orders for them at my local dealership. I suppose I could have waited a year for the early-adopters to have bought, driven and sold theirs off for me to pick one up for $25k, never to know how badly it was abused before I got my hands on it. But after 21,000 miles and 15 months, I'm still happy with it and gladly accept the compliments of my peers, some of whom think it still has that "new car smell"
This was my one opportunity, possibly for my entire life, to do something wild and crazy that wouldn't put me in a serious financial hole, and I could get some good use out of it for at least a few years after it's paid off.
Everyone has their passions in life, and if I spend my entire life depriving myself of them because they don't make financial sense, I'd be a bored shell of a man with a big bank account and nothing to spend it on save the retirement home, at which point I'll be too old and senile to enjoy it provided I survive the age-60 curse of the men in my family.

Re:Remember the EA guy?

[bleckywelcky]

Well, maybe the financial track you typically envision runs a bit slower than mine. By time I hit 35, I'll be sitting comfortably enough to set my own work hours and take time off whenever needed to spend a week in the mountains or a month across seas. I think I'll be plenty young enough to enjoy it. And I'm not depriving myself along the way, I'm just being smart about how I play my cards. It doesn't take long to get yourself independent - people who aren't so until age 60 just didn't think about it early enough.

The hard part...

[planetoid]

The hard part, in my experience, seems to be getting your foot in the door into the videogames industry in the first place. Every single job opening I've read that I saw and said, "I'm totally qualified for that -- all they skills they're looking for, I have", also then have one other requirement: either "Must have 2-3 years prior job experience" or "Must have credits on (x) previous console titles."

Well gee, if EVERY job position requires PRIOR JOB EXPERIENCE, how can you possibly EVER GET JOB EXPERIENCE if you can't get hired for NOT HAVING PRIOR JOB EXPERIENCE?

I wouldn't mind so much if it said "prior experience / credits preferred" (I wouldn't mind having to "prove" myself in order to get a job) but they all seem to say "prior experience / credits required" (where it seems like, even if you "prove" yourself, "well sorry, you haven't had previous work in this industry before". Two months away from graduating college and I'm starting to really panic over whether or not I'll be even given the chance to bring my experience into a job, over something that seems superficial and silly rather than anything related to competence in any given talent.

Re:The hard part...

[kevmo]

A lot of times when they say "prior experience required" they actually mean preferred. This is especially true for recent college grads - I am a senior in college myself, and I have had at least 1 interview where the job listing said "3+ years of experience." I don't know why they say it if its not totally true, but don't let those requirements stop you from sending them your resume.

Re:The hard part...

[Buddy_DoQ]

It's cool dude, if you want in, you really don't need that prior exp. Just a hard-core portfolio and the attitude to follow it up. It's a visual medium, so you have to show them what you can do, the easiest way is to show them the last game you shipped, but they don't really expect everyone to have that. Just send them your reel and if it rocks their socks off, you'll get your interview and art test if you're an artist type.

In the meantime, don't stop working on your stuff, keep your self fresh

Re:The hard part...

[Rac3r5]

u know something.. I faced the same problem last year..

I graduated in Spring and spent the entire summer looking for a job. A lot of the job postings that I saw wanted me to have 3-5yrs exp.

So I decided to actually go to a number of companies and drop my resume off, and even that didn't work. I spoke to some HR personell, and they were telling me that they were only looking for SENIOR ppl, while some others told me that a bunch of jobs got offshored.

What I did do is get involved in a bunch of projects in a wide variety of things and put that in my resume. When I was in school, instead of doing the bare minimum in a project I actually went beyond and did something a bit more complex and put that in my resume.

I got my lucky break at the company I am working at, initially as a web developer, but because of stuff on my resume, I'm now doing hardware end stuff..

Re:The hard part...

[AuMatar]

ANytime you see xxx years experience on any job, cut it to 60%. They want 10? 6-7 years is fine, 5 is probably ok. They want 5? 3 is fine. They want 2? Any previous job is fine, and a college grad has a chance.

For the gaming industry in particular, I'd bring in some demos to show them, that can get you points (assuming they're good) and offset experience. Although I'd also recommend avoiding the field, other jobs pay more, have lower hours, and lower stress. You'll be happier in the long run if you go elsewhere.

Re:The hard part...

[Buzz_Litebeer]

It gets better, I was recently hired because I put some effort in getting to know people around me. Get out and get into things that will help you meet people in the industry, and impress them, I have a job because of someone I knew, not because my resume was spanky.

Re:The hard part...

[TrappedByMyself]

Get a job outside of the game field, and either build a game in your spare time, or volunteer your time to a group building a game or mod.

over something that seems superficial and silly rather than anything related to competence in any given talent.

How is proven experience not related to competence? Put another way, if you claim to have the competence, then how are you not able to prove it to them? What is your competence? Good grades? Projects you did on your own? A healthy ego is not competence.
If you claim to be good at something, then you've must have done it, so you have something to put on your resume. 2 years experience is not a huge demand. If you can demonstrate real skills, you can sometimes get that sort of work if you take the chance of sending in the resume anyway.
However, if you got an 'A' on a six week project, and think you can go after senior level positions, then you need a reality check.

Re:The hard part...

[Bimo_Dude]

Every job I've had in the last eight years has required at least a BS, sometimes an MS. I am only a high school graduate. Ignore everything that the HR people say about requirements, and only pay attention to the skills needed (unless they are unrealistic, like "20 years experience in Linux 2.6 kernel programming").

Re:The hard part...

[jistanidiot]

This is true in any industry. For any job you're actually qualified for but don't have the necessary experience, send the resume and cover letter to them. Call them, try and talk to the hiring person. You'll probably get the job, but as less than what they advertised it for. But then you'll have your foot in the door and will have the experience when you apply for another job.

Re:The hard part...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's to weed out Customer Service reps, Janitors, and hundreds of other retards from applying to the job. Trust me, sad but true.

Re:The hard part...

[mmkkbb]

i saw a job req for bose.

they wanted 35 years of programming experience.

they also wanted 12 years of .NET experience. i think they missed a couple hyphens

Re:The hard part...

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy. Time travel.

Re:The hard part...

[RoboPimp_3000]

ANytime you see xxx years experience on any job

You need years of XXX experience for a job? Man, I knew I should have done that one video when I was approached by that guy with the mustache...

Re:The hard part...

[drewzhrodague]

Same here -- lots of companies require certifications and a masters in something (even unrelated!!!). I have a GED.

When the HRC* asks about my education, and why it is not on my resume, I tell them that I am self-taught, and that I haven't had a chance to go to college yet. Some HRCs are rude, and then start treating me like a smelly homeless person who climed out from under a rock. The 'better' HRCs will move onto the next interview bits.

Some HRCs feel that they worked long and hard on their Bachelor's Degree in Psychology. They feel that unless you are properly homogemicated, that you just cannot function in life, and must not be able to function at their company. If this is the case with your interview, it is okay to send an email to the CEO, and tell him/her what an asshole their HRC is.

This happened at my last contract -- 4 month interview process, for a 3 month contract. The HRC wasn't all that excited to have an employee recommend me, and wasn't excited about not having found me herself. When I told her that I was self-educated, she started getting rude and insulting, "We have PhDs and scientists on our staff," she told me. I ignored this, and tried to be polite, and interviewee. Later that year, I applied for 8 or 9 jobs at this company, and was astounded that they hired only incompetent people in the IT staff, and not those qualified. So, I made fun of her publicly, and it felt good. Real good. When it got back to me that the HRC had read what I had said about her, what I heard was that she pointed fingers at other people, and made excuses. Now I laugh about it with the coworkers that I brought from there, to where I am now, and it's funny.

I know what it is like to be starving, and not be hired for a job you are perfectly suited for. This is why I fight back any way I can. I make it a point to not burn bridges, but when they're burned for you, why not raze it up a notch?

* Remember, childeren, the 'C' in HRC is for Cunt.

Re:The hard part...

[tepples]

They want 2? Any previous job is fine, and a college grad has a chance.

Even if the college grad has not had a chance to work while in college? If I have been continuously seeking employment for 32 months since having graduated and found nothing but a $0.00 per hour volunteer job, does 7 months of volunteer experience count for anything?

Re:The hard part...

[tepples]

and either build a game in your spare time

How? The consoles have secret bootloaders.

Put another way, if you claim to have the competence, then how are you not able to prove it to them?

By not having been hired before except in a $0.00/hour volunteer job (15 hours a week for 7 months and counting). By having been born and raised in a geographic area outside the video game industry.

Re:The hard part...

[Hurricane78]

Damn. I'm just out of mod points. This is SO true that I would give you all my mod points, no matter how many i would have!

BTW: I'm looking for at least 20 designers and 5 programmers who have skill and love game programming/designing but don't get a job. i'm thinking of something like: if we don't get a job we have to create the jobs ourselves. so in fact i want to start a company. (but don't dare to compare it to a "regular company" like EA!)

Re:The hard part...

[AuMatar]

Yes, even if the college grad didn't get to work in college. The 2 years experience is a stopper to block people who don't know how to program from applying. And yes, if you're programming a volunteer job counts equal to a job experience. If you were helpdesk or the like, its equal to helpdesk experience. Anything you did open source should also be on your resume, that also counts as experience.

I have a hard time believing you have a CS degree (or anything closely related, like math or CompE or EE) and haven't found anything yet. Have you tried the usual suspects (Monster, Dice, Craig's List)? Have you posted your resume at company hr sites? Looked at corporate wanted lists? I know in particular Amazon has been hiring like crazy this year. The job market is not bad at all right now- its not 1999 levels, but you should have been able to find a job in 3-4 months, not close to 2.5 years.

When in doubt if you're qualified for job X due to 1 or two requirements but are otherwise a close fit, send a resume anyway. It costs you nothing, and if you really don't fit they will figure it out quickly enough. Frequently you may not fit for that job, but will for another (especially with headhunters- good headhunters always contact you even if you don't fit, you might for their next job). There's really no downside to you, so just send away.

Re:The hard part...

[tepples]

And yes, if you're programming a volunteer job counts equal to a job experience.

VA NIHCS won't let me touch the computers because I'm a volunteer. I keep checking the job board, and I've even applied for one job ("Medical Laboratory Aid or Medical Technician"), thinking it was similar to what I had already been doing as a volunteer, but it turns out the position was misdescribed: they wanted an ER phlebotomist.

Have you tried the usual suspects (Monster, Dice, Craig's List)?

I've tried CareerBuilder and Monster, but not Dice or Craig's List.

Have you posted your resume at company hr sites?

How should I go about looking for companies with an office in Fort Wayne, Indiana, that I would want to work for while I gain experience living away from my parents' proverbial basement?

I know in particular Amazon has been hiring like crazy this year.

Not where I live, and right now I don't have enough money in the bank to be able to afford the cost of relocation.

When in doubt if you're qualified for job X due to 1 or two requirements but are otherwise a close fit, send a resume anyway.

I've been doing so, but all I get is "Sorry, we've filled this position."

Perhaps my resume is crap. Could you care to take a look?

Re:The hard part...

[AuMatar]

Well, the Ft Wayne Indiana part does make it a bit harder, not really a tech hot spot. But you do seem willing to move, if it wasn't for the money. Thats good, because you shouldn't need to pay for it. Any medium to big company will pay relocation for you. To tell the two companies I've experienced, HP paid full relocation plus a wad of spending cash to move in on (or let you hire movers and buy tickets yourself for a bigger wad. This was the better deal back then). This was straight out of college, they moved me from Chicago to San Diego. Amazon pays full relocation, some cash for pocket expenses, and a month of corporate housing while you find a place. These deals include everything you can think of- movers come to your home, pack for you, drive your car there, pay your plane ticket, and give you a rental car while waiting.

Unless the ad specificly says "Local only" or "No relocation paid", relocation is negotiable. Just keep your address in your resume, and if thats a show stopper for them they won't call you. If the company hadn't thought in terms of relocation (meaning it didn't put locals only but balks at paying for it), its still negotiable- negotiate for lower first year salary in exchange or for a lower signing bonus in exchange. Depending on how desperate you are (32 months is probably high) you can even negotiate a lower salary period in exchange for it, and look for a new job after 1-2 years. Relocation only costs a couple of grand, thats chump change to a mid->large buisness. They spend several times that on HR people reading resumes.

Looking at your resume- stress the embedded stuff if you like it at all. Embedded is hopping right now, especially cellular. Given your location, definitely apply to Motorola, they're heavy in the midwest.

Cut down the software systems known- they assume you know a text editor and how to use a compiler. Thinking that its necessary to put on there could raise a red flag. Keep MySQL if you have a decent knowledge of it (and by that I mean know how to setup and do basic admin or how to optimize SQL for it). Leave off office suites. Leave off OSes, but do mention that you know whatever MS APIs you may have used (.NET, MFC, Win32 API, etc) along with POSIX. Leave off what you could learn to use, its assumed if you know one type of a program you could learn another.

Languages- Drop scheme, unless you're really an expert. Most likely you took 1-2 classes that used it. It just looks out of place on a buisness resume. Too many languages looks like you're BSing. List those you're truely an expert in- C,C++, and Java are good. 1-2 assembly languages are good, unless you're angling for embedded in which case list all. PHP if you've done a lot of web work. Leave off CSS, HTML, and Java script- HTML is assumed, CSS and JavaScript are too. Keep them in only if you're particularly angling for a webdev job.

Stress your projects. They're your only source of practical experience. Include links to any they can see on the web. Discuss the features of the project more. Its ok to inflate your own participation level- I garuntee you your groupmates are :)

School- include course work done, especially if you specialized your electives anywhere. If you had any extra-curricular computer related stuff, list it. For example, if you were a member of an ACM SIG.

You may want to do 2-3 resumes with different emphasis, depending on what type of job you want. One for embedded, one for webdev, one for general, each stressing those aspects of projects/education. Send the appropriate one for the job.

Also, don't forget to write cover letters. They can be brief, and almost formulaic, but they do bring attention. I know Monster and Dice both support them, so do most job websites.

I'd also include your volunteer work under work experience, if you put in a decent number of hours a week. It shows dedication, and a willingness to do work. Its better than having it blank.

Other than

Re:The hard part...

[mikael]

You can demonstrate your skills in many ways:

1. Write games in your own spare time. Visit websites like gamasutra to pick up hints and tips
on AI, physics and rendering.

2. Do a related project as part of a university degree while learning Mathematics and Physics, AI and Software Design at the same time. You will have the advantage of being able to read the latest papers on AI and 3D rendering.

salaries

[achacha]

It's always a trade-off of salary and doing what you like in the software industry. As a senior game developer you can make 80-100k but you will be working 50-70 hours a week and even weekends. Being a senior software developer in a financial or banking corporation will get you 90-120k and 40 hour work weeks, but the sheer boredom on working on financial apps needs to be considered. So the bottom line is do you want to do what you love and become a hamster in a wheel or will you grow think skin and work on tedious and boring applications for stability, more free time, and better options/bonuses?

That is the question that most software engineers ask themselves and a heavy factor is if you have something outside of work that matters a lot to you (family, involved hobby, etc).

Dilemma indeed.

Re:salaries

[nb caffeine]

its possible to take that extra bankroll and the 10-30 hrs a week doing hobby game development. Hell, i make muuuuch less than that, but have gobs of free time. Too bad I'm really lazy (and sick of programming writing boring shipping apps)

Re:salaries

[Surt]

Man, when I worked in the games industry I dreamed of only having to work 70 hours per week. And those were often waking dreams because they didn't let me get a lot of sleep.

Re:salaries

[macrom]

It frustrates me when I read comments like this. Not all non-game programming industry jobs are boring. Think of it this way : are all auto mechanic jobs not working on Ferraris or Porsches boring because you're not in some sort of exclusive section of your industry? I've worked on call center software, IVR software, video playback software, PDA software, commercial shrinkwrap software and much more. All of it has been fun, and all of it has been challenging. Why? Because I love to code, and there are programming challenges to be solved in all types of software, not just games. I've talked with one of the largest banks in the country about working on their software, and trust me, there's a ton of fun stuff to do. It just doesn't involve games, but that doesn't make it boring.

And I will stand corrected on this, but most any job where you're making at least 6 figures will require more than 40 hours a week. Maybe some of that work is done at home, but it's still more than the standard man-week. Doctors, lawyers, programmers, etc. all have the potential to make a lot of money, but our companies usually demand a little extra in return.

Re:salaries

[Chris_Yates]

I agree with macrom. They're only boring if you let them be. Even behind the most boring of applications can be very exciting and elegant engineering, such as a sophisticated and highly portable framework API that you hand wrote, etc...make it fun by challenging yourself to write better code with each project. Challenge yourself to write faster more stable code along with quicker development time. Don't worry about the gory boring business rules and details of the application itself, concentrate on the engineering. That's what I do, anyhow.

Re:salaries

[AdamTrace]

As a professional programmer working in the financial area, don't be to harsh on the "sheer boredom" of working on business apps. Writing code that works is very rewarding, whether it's a first person shooter or a complicated business process.

Or, if you prefer, acknowledge that games programming is not as fun as actually playing games. At some level, work is work, and even game programming can be tedious.

I work 40 hour weeks. I make a good salary. I get to see my wife and friends every evening and weekend. And I even have time to work on programming my own games for fun.

Adman

Just Plain Stupid

[kenp2002]

Salary surveys are one of the worst examples of statistics. First off you have to be EMPLOYED. The average salary for a football player is say 4 million. Now out of the millions of people that try to get into professional football how many? Telling me people in the game industry are earning $60k a year means nothing if you can't get a job in te industry. Further more the cost of education, hours worked, and benefits compensation are left out largely. In addition salary surverys are biased as they ignore laid off, unemployed, and displaced employees in the industry.

Salary Survey question example:

How much do you make an hour? --- $30 and hour.

As far as the survery is concerned I make $60,000 a year. But if I get laid off for 6 months do they adjust that? Nope. It's too irrelivant to use salary figures. IF wonk A get 60k a year and wonk B gets 70k who makes more? Well Wonka A pays nothing for health insurance and Wonk B pays 12k a year for health insurance. What about deductables and 401k\b performance. Stock options. I know plenty of Eron employees that could talk about the real wage of a staffer just as EA employees could rant a bit on it.

Tired of surverys that mean nothing....

my 2

Re:Just Plain Stupid

[protohiro1]

Yes, and this story is bullshit. Its like saying "Kids, go into acting! The starting salary for a movie star is $500k a year!" Which is true. But there are probably 50,000 aspiring actors for every movie star. Games/special effects/etc is a field that is totally hosed by the glamour factor. I started out as a 3d artist (in LA) and I realized real quickly that they EXPLOIT people because of the glamour factor. My advices is to never take a job where the people tell you that there are "thousands of kids who would do this job for free". It isn't worth the suffering just to have a glamorous job.

The first offer I got at an effects company was at a movie trailer house. I knew all the softs, I had a reel and a film production degree from USC. They wanted me to start as a junior artist--for $8.50 an hour, no overtime, no benefits. they fed me the "people would do this for free" line. I got a job at a hotel front desk instead that paid $10.50/hour, plus insurance and vacation.

Further, in games and effects people will tell you its an amazing industry to get into. I'm sure it can be very fun. But there are very few oppurtunities to move up for most coders and artists. That's why most coders and artists in that industry are

But, well, if you REALLY want to do it, go for it.

Re:Just Plain Stupid

[Greg_D]

You aren't a pro football player unless someone is paying you to play football.

You don't earn a salary as a video game developer unless someone is paying you to develop video games.

So why would someone include people in a salary that clearly don't meet the basic requirements of inclusion in the survey?

You know what they call a guy who used to develop video games? The same as the guy who used to mop the floors. They call them unemployed, and they aren't included in fun little surveys because they aren't relevant.

Re:Just Plain Stupid

[leshert]

You know what they call a guy who used to develop video games?

In my case, it's "someone making twice what he did back then".

IGN is like a clueless newbie

[Anonymous Coward]

Salaries for inexperienced game programmers are probably closer to $30k and may go as high as $40K for somebody they feel is very astute.

$60K is the salary for someone with 3-5 years of experience, but keep in mind a few things: 1) Turnover in the industry is VERY high 2) Burnout is very high 3) You will work 80-100 hour weeks.

So in truth:

1) You wont' get a job in the gaming industry
2) The fact that a bunch of kids think its sexy means there are too many programmers chasing too few job
3) Every programmer thinks they're the sh*t. In fact, I've met 5 programmers who meet that criteria.... EVER.
4) They purposely try to burn out the new guys because there is no overhead associated with these useful idiots. They want to hire guys with 1 year of experience.
5) You'll be burned out after a few years. Guaranteed. That's why there are no "old" computer game programmers.

Dont' feed the machine. Walk away.

I hope so

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been working on games since leaving university in 1994... 3DO, PS1, PS2, XBox, Sega DC, Nintendo 64, PC, in both programmer and lead programmer positions. I hit $60k last year.

*speechless*

I mean, am I just horribly underpaid, or are these figures wildly inaccurate, or just vastly inflated Californian levels?

Good to know I'm a beginner. Makes me feel a little younger.

Re:I hope so

[Anonymous Coward]

Just get a job in the boring corporate world. I'm 24 years old and have been programming professionaly since my junior year in high school with no degree. I just landed a senior programmer/analyst position in a fortune 500 company for $60k/year plus 10% yearly bonuses programming VB6...and I work no more than 40 hours a week. Screw making games, I'll just play them.

Re:I hope so

[AuMatar]

You're getting screwed. I started making far more than 70K 4 years ago in the rest of the industry. Thats why I avoid games programming like poison.

Re:I hope so

[jedidiah]

You're far better off with the caliber of programmers that tends to infest the average games studio as well as the relatively low level of BS that comes from a small shop dominated by the techs. You are forgetting that flight from the games industry will not necessarily even be of immediate financial benefit as everyone wants to outsource the geeks they do have and try to abuse the ones that still remain.

        Being in another industry will not necessarily ensure better pay, better job stability or shorter hours.

        However, the non-technical BS will certainly be greater. You will find yourself living out things that you previously only were exposed to through Dilbert cartoons. (not to say that already doesn't happen in the likes of EA, you'll just get
a LOT more of it on the "outside")

        Why aren't the head hunters calling you?

Before our friends across the pond get ticked....

[Puls4r]

Please realize that IGN is full of shit.

People who make $100k a year do not neccessarily drive Lambo's either. In fact, I bet very FEW people who make $100k a year drive "great" cars - $100k a year in the US isn't ALL that much money. Especially if you're supporting a family.

Entry level salaries for programmers, (and it's pretty freakin rare that someone right out of college gets a job programming for games) are more in the area of 30-40K, with a possibility of $50 if you were a top-notch grad from a top-notch school.

I work at a Major Game Company

[OneByteOff]

A metric that I've always used to guess how well a company pays its employees is the cars in the parking lot. I work at a major game company that produces 20 million dollar games. In our parking lot out of about 100 cars there are no Bmw's, one mercedes, one or two high end sports cars and the majority are grocery getter low end compacts.

The only people getting rich are the high up exec's, one of which rolls up in his bentley once a month or so for a few hours then leaves the office again.

Re:I work at a Major Game Company

[Anonymous Coward]

wow. 60 k is peanuts. The gaming industry is seriously pimping these people out. Programming web apps pays much more and is much less complicated. 45 - 50/hr salary, 35 - 70/hr contract. .Net, CFMX, PHP, Java, Perl. I thought that I would want to program games... Fuck that. I'm just under 6 figures.

Re:I work at a Major Game Company

[autophile]

In our parking lot out of about 100 cars there are no Bmw's, one mercedes, one or two high end sports cars and the majority are grocery getter low end compacts.

The only people getting rich are the high up exec's...

You've got a hold of a logical fallacy there. Sure, maybe sports car implies rich, but rich does NOT imply sports car. Many rich people are that way because they don't go for the flash.

--Rob

Re:I work at a Major Game Company

[leabre]

I'm a programmer that writes web applications. The boring stuff, as the slashdotters put it, but I rather enjoy it. I've been doing it for 7 years for various companies but I'm almost always fulltime. My income, as reported to the IRS last year and years before that, is a little less than $200k. But you wouldn't know that by the way I dress, car I drive, place I live, or things I do.

I dress with normal clothes that are about 2 years old. I bargain shop for shoes and such. rather than spending $40+/mo. at Blockbuster. I pay $24 for Netflix, instead of paying full price for a movie ticket ($10 these days) I use the Entertainment book and spend $5.50 instead. I pay to have my car washed only once or so every 3 months. I pay to have my hair cut about once every 3 months or so. My cars were purchased new but are paid in full and are not indicitive of my income in any way. I live in an apartment, don't own a house (wherein I live). Don't have any credit card debt. Strong savings and so on. Most people who don't know me well would have no idea how much money I make.

The key to building wealth is to not spend more than you have coming in. Save at least 30% if you can. I save 50%. If you must have something (read: really "want" it), then save for it and pay it in full. Avoid the credit cards. Those will kill ya in the long run, because youre money isn't working for you, but against you. Purchase books/electronics from Amazon/Ebay and for Amazon, use the SuperSaver shipping so you don't have to pay shipping. For cars, buying new is okay, but buying a slightly used car/truck is cheaper and you'll get basically the same thing out of it. But personally, I buy new, I just pay cash or more than 60% down. That means I have to save longer. But that's okay.

Study the realestate market in various places and determine where a good place to invest would be. I purchase houses and rent them out. But these are very nice houses. Every house I've purchased is the type that, in markets where it takes 8 to 12 weeks to find an occupant, mine take as much time as for the first person to walk through it. Usually with 0% down. But in some places, you have to put more down to break even. Just be smart about it. For realestate investments, try using as little of your own money as possible, and keep accumulating as you see fit, and keep building a savings. Don't just buy what you would live in yourself, buy what will rent -- its an investment, always keep that in mind.

I know people that make less money than I do and live more lavishly. But they are living month-to-month and at the first sign of trouble, their lives collapse. Mainly due to debt, rather than anything else. I learned the lesson. I was once laid off and my wife (girlfriend at the time) the next day at an unrelated company. Having to choose between impeccable credit and food is a hard one. I was trying to pay off as quickly as possible ($2,500/mo. for about 2 1/2 years). My savings went to zero the day we found our current jobs that we've been at for 3 years now. Had to cach in her lucrative 401k and various IRA's and stuff to stay afloat. That's not a good thing at all, so I've learned from that. I don't pay for TV or cable, instead I'll just rent the season DVD's when/if they come out. As I stated early, "impeccable credit": because I protected it during that situation, I get extremely competitive rates on real estate loans and it helps me in other areas.

While I don't "coupon shop", I am smart about it (in many the ways I stated above). In the end, it works out really well. I am, by nature, compulsive. But I have to fight it. Sometimes, it's okay. But its best to be less compulsive and more "smart shopper" if you want to accumulate wealth.

You best not judge a book by its cover. One of the highest paid people I've ever known drives a clunker and lives comfortably (comfort is relative: for me it means paying bills, never worrying about it, and accumulating a savings, and being able to invest wisely and afford a loss if need be (note: I don't gamble). For others, it means living lavishly). One of the most lowest paid person I know drives a very nice status mobile and stuggles with life and payments.

Just my two cents.

Thanks,
Leabre

Re:I work at a Major Game Company

[GooberToo]

I'm not sure I would subscribe to your parking lot theory. It might be a good guage, but I've known people that drive 8-10 year old cars, that cost maybe $25k when they were new but owned a $150+k airplane. Likewise, I've known people that drive typical, unassuming 20-30k cars, but actually have a couple million in the bank. I've known yet more people that drive your typical sudan yet their homes were simply awesome...on the inside; yet fairly unassuming on the outside.

You need to remember that not everyone buys into the "my penis is small, therefore, I must be a newer, bigger car every 2-4 years", treadmill.

My point, prosperity != nice car. Sure, prosperity will certainly allow for a nice car, but those are two different things.

Re:I work at a Major Game Company

[sam0ht]

Out of all those who are paid enough to afford nice cars, only a certain proportion actually will do, true. But if you go to the carpark of a racing game company (where the original poster works) and see 100% old bangers excepting the marked Director slots, that tells you something.

Re:I work at a Major Game Company

[Grishnakh]

Rich people also don't buy crappy little cars that require a lot of work. The frugal rich you talk of tend to buy new, middle-of-the-road cars, like Camrys or Avalons. Not terribly expensive or flashy, but not a subcompact beater either.

Aside from this, no software developer anywhere in this country is rich (and still working as a software developer). Only middle class. And the middle class tends to buy vehicles that are closer to their budget limits. If that company were paying well, there'd be a lot of nice cars in the parking lot, like there are at mine. We have Porsches, Goldwings, 350Zs, Mercedes, BMWs, Acura NSXs, a Ford GT, a Viper, etc. A parking lot full of crappy cars is a sure sign of a poor-paying company.

Re:I work at a Major Game Company

[Grishnakh]

Exactly. There's always a few exceptions who drive cars out of character for their income bracket, but that's not the norm within any population. There's one guy where I work who drives a giant 70's POS to work that has random crap glued all over it, but as long as he's been here and as high up as he is, he's probably a millionaire. But that's in no way normal.

Make up your minds

[xeon4life]

Alright, you slashdotters really need to make up your minds. Either going into the computer industry is a bad choice or it's not. First, you say it's a bad idea because most jobs are being outsourced to other countries. Then you publish articles downplaying those claims, and saying companies are fighting to get CS grads and schools fighting to get more people into CS. You see, I will tell you all a little story of a boy who was turned off to his potential future as a programmer:

There once was a boy, aged 12, who was introduced to computers through a Christmas present (more of a "hand-me-down") and became interested in programming. He had to research for weeks just to learn what how to get a compiler on his Windows 95 operating system, and spent the next few months introducing himself to various open source programs. Fast forward about two years and you'll find him spending all the money he recieved every birthday and Christmas on those expensive $100 programming books at Barnes & Noble and reading them. You'll find him immersing himself in his own programming creations, very mature and sophisticated for a boy of 14 years of age. He loved programming! He thrived on it (and coffee). He just loved the idea of creating something out of nothing. Fast forward another 2 years: He now is interested in many fields of computers, such as operating system development, language development, game development. He owns books such as "The Design and Implementation of the 4.4 BSD Operating System" and "Modern Operating Systems". He just begins to hear of this "outsourcing" epidemic. He's unsure of his future, but he continues to plan his life accordingly and wants to be a computer scientist. Fast forward, once more, another 2 years. He's created his school's first computer science club. It has approximately 20 active members and he lectures every week. He is now VERY unsure of his future. All the years of slashdot's warning to prospective CS students has finally gotten to him. The stories of unemployed CS grads and outsourcing and low paying EA-like jobs have gotten him worried. He now programs less, and is seriously considering majoring in Philosophy and English, because those are two other majors he thinks he would enjoy. "What happened," he sometimes asks himself, "why has it come to this?"

One year later he's been out of high school for a year and works at the local grocery store behind the butcher block because he was left stranded and confused. He didn't make up his mind about his future in time for college deadlines, and still reads slashdot and their conflicting outlooks on the future. If he's going to take any plunge he's going to do it with Philosophy and English. The liberal artsy-fartsy way that will at least give him a better understanding of the human condition before he dies of starvation.

P.S. Whether you believe it or not, the anti-bot image I had to type in was "overtime". Hah...

Re:Make up your minds

[twiddlingbits]

Wow..

The kid couldn't make up his mind so he did nothing? That's not very intelligent. He could have taken the first year or two of college to make up his mind. I changed majors two times and still made it out in 5 years. If he liked problem solving maybe he would have gotten into Chemistry or Physics and would have had the ability to write his own software for research. IMO there is no excuse for not giving it a try and seeing what happened.

Listening to the Slashdot for advice is not a good idea either you get way too many opinions. If he had checked online at various locations about careers he might have decided to go on to school. Or he could have talked to Placement Offices at Colleges. Sounds like he spent too much time with his computers and too little learning the way the world works. In programming things are usually either right or wrong with little grey area, in the real world it is the oppisite, most things are grey with few black and white decisions.

He obviously has some talents, he just needs to suck it up, take the "risk" and get an education!! It does NOT have be in CS, in fact a LOT of programmers are not CS majors. He may have found he was very good at something in CS and gone on to get a PhD and done research, there is no excuse for him "wasting" his talent because he was scared about the future in Programming.

Just my .02 worth..

Re:Make up your minds

[servognome]

One year later he's been out of high school for a year and works at the local grocery store behind the butcher block because he was left stranded and confused. He didn't make up his mind about his future in time for college deadlines, and still reads slashdot and their conflicting outlooks on the future.

See the problem was he didn't make a decision. You should always make a decision and go for it, it's better to change direction after making a wrong decision, than to continue not pursue anything at all. Even if he did make a "bad" decision like choose Philosophy as a major, he will still have access to college facilities (eg job fairs) to understand the CS job prospects, already being in the system he can change majors (and maybe bring some new perspectives from his philosphy education). Worst case he graduates with a degree in philosphy and can be a teacher or manager at the grocery store instead of just bagging groceries.

Re:Make up your minds

[mmp]

Taking your career advice from the usually-hysterical-about-something-or-other slashdot group think is your first mistake, seriously.

Do what you love, work hard at it, try to have some fun along the way. Take a risk or two; the worst case scenario is almost certainly not that bad in the end and you only live once (those expecting reincarnation notwithstanding). That seems what you'd been doing up until the loony bunch here got you worried.

(And disregard anyone who follows up to this saying "I did what I love and it didn't work out so that's a lousy idea". Even that's a better outcome than confused and indecisive working at the grocery store.)

-matt

Re:Make up your minds

[Doctor Memory]

Either you love it or you don't. Me, I write code because I can't NOT write code. During my morning commute, I don't see traffic flow, I see queueing theory (gone bad, most of the time). I'm writing an elevator controller in Ruby -- not because I have to, but because I had a long wait for an elevator over the weekend, and I started it and have to finish it. FWIW, I was an English major, but I wound up taking more CS classes than English before I was hired out of college for my first software development gig.

Do or do not...

Re:Make up your minds

[Anonymous Coward]

You need a break on that fear() loop. At your age you can afford to make all sorts of mistakes. I flunked out of CS in college, but have worked at NASA and IBM. Go to school, full-time or part-time. Work in the lab, get a significant other, have fun and don't worry. In time, you'll figure out if you like the industry.

At least get out of the grocery store. Do something with your mind or your hands (thesca.org).

There will always be jobs for younger developers who love the business. If you want to make a career of it, you'll need to be more flexible, just like most of our ancestors were.

Re:Make up your minds

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot should not be used as an indication of reality in any way. It's like that caveat listed at the beginning of /. polls "If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane." Use /. like some /.ers say they use wikipedia - a good starting place, but go somewhere else for more info. If one believes the programming market goes through ups and downs (and will go up again), then getting a degree during a down is an incredibly smart move (hopefully getting done during an "up"). The classes will be limited to people who are there to learn more not just get in on a hot market.

I was never as hard-core as that kid in your story, but I liked programming better than any other subject in high school and decided to pursue a CS degree in college. After graduating with a BS in CS, I started out working for a software company for $50k (in 2003, a time when programming jobs had supposedly bottomed out).

Interesting note, when they asked what I'd like my starting salary to be, I said $45k, partly because of the horror stories on /. They raised my starting salary because I shot way too low. Believing in the negative hype may have cost me 10-15k! If this kid is working in a grocery store instead of working a $50k job, this hype is making him lose even more money than I did.

Also, even if one declares CS, there's still plenty of elective credits to spend on other interests. I was able to take a couple of philosophy classes and a TV Production class (no movie production class at my engineering oriented school).

Anyway, this kid is wasting time because he's too scared to take a chance. I've known people like this. It always turns out that not taking a chance is always the wrong choice. Time spent idle is time wasted. Even time spent going down a wrong path is still a journey. And is way fucking better than painting houses or working in a grocery store. Even if that's where one ends up at the end of a journey. BTW, this kid could probably still enroll in school in time for winter classes...(that kid could ignore posted deadlines for enrollments, they'll always bend the rules to get more money!)

Re:Make up your minds

[orderb13]

Nothing wrong with Philosophy. The logic games you learn to play there will serve you well no matter what field you go into (and you can even go into the computer field with it)

Re:Make up your minds

[Gruneun]

a boy, aged 12... had to research... on his Windows 95 operating system

That would make you 23.

One year later he's been out of high school for a year

Ouch.

I'm just giving you a hard time, but as someone who has been in the industry for a while, I can tell you a couple things. First, game companies are not the norm for computer science, as far as employment opportunities or salaries. I would love to work in gaming, but I make far too much doing "boring" stuff to make the switch (maybe, when I "retire"). Second, the availability of IT jobs is location- and field-dependant. The guy who bemoans the lack of jobs in San Francisco isn't looking at the market in DC, where there are so many government contractors that they're forced to constantly steal employees from each other. Third, experience is generally preferred, but there are plenty of positions for entry-level programmers. You probably won't get rich, but you could intern or take a low salary for a year and make more in the subsequent few than you will working on games in the same period. If you're as devoted as you describe, you will have no problem.

Last, people who make $100k do not drive $250k cars. That's like saying that every QA guy pulling in $30k is driving a Viper.

Re:Make up your minds

[Surt]

Man, he really should have learned early on that B&N won't charge you for their books if you just read them in the store.

He also should have given serious thought to going to a school that doesn't require a major commitment in the first two years. Then he could have taken courses in all 3 areas of interest, and postponed making a decision long enough to realize that Philosophy and English offer no better odds of being employed than computer science. Then he could have just made his decision based on what he really liked.

Re:Make up your minds

[Maxo-Texas]

1) Go to college.
2) Take your "core" first- they apply to all degrees.
3) Unless you are brilliant or extremely driven, just get a business degree.
4) Make sure you get at least a 3.0 GPA (Higher is better).
5) Join a fraternity (networking/connections).
6) Go to parties (have fun while you are young and healthy).

---

CS sucks- all the jobs are going overseas. There is no future in it unless you are brilliant.

Basic facts: If you know how to program- you can do it from anywhere. If you know the particular business rules you are dealing with, you have value. So learn a lot about businesses that are too small to offshore work and you may have a shot. Any large business has unlimited "decent/code monkey" programmers at $5k to $10k per year- until their wages come up or ours go down- you are not going to find work here.

The pay in business is much better than video gaming but it is dropping or staying the same in the face of 3-4% inflation.

---
Never trust promises from managers. They have no control and they are probably lying if they do. Always remember you are a COST to the company and the second you stop having value you will simply be let go. Save save save.

Re:Make up your minds

[Anonymous Coward]

Brilliant and true. I'm in the same boat, I've been in/out of college for 7 years and now I'm completely leaving the field. I spent 2 years out of work, (after having a NASA internship mind you, and 2003 ACM world finalist).

My advice, if you want to make money, find something else and code for fun.
I'm going back to school this spring and changing degrees to Physics and Japanese. Maybe not a better switch, but at least I won't be out of work for 2 years, then be greatful for finally getting a job at $6 doing Perl/PHP/.Net work.

Re:Make up your minds

[Anonymous Coward]

If you do go into the computer industry, look for something that keeps you close to the customers. If you just want to code and never see a customer, you won't make it. Do not believe anyone who tells you all the work is going overseas. They're just trying to keep you out of the competition.

Look for a company where you can spend time in service, development, deployment and consulting. Don't just be the greatest Ruby guru. Right now, I have consulting friends who are turning away work left and right. It's because they have a knowledge base and experience to do anything our customers want, and what they don't know, they aren't afraid to learn.

When they tire of that, they'll just move up to mgmt.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[pete19]

$60,000...Yeah, right!!

I'm a third year Computing Science (A.I.) student. I was at my university careers fair today, and the most I can expect to earn as a starting graduate in the UK is in the area of £21,500 (~$38,000).

A friend of mine just graduated with a BSc Games Technology (Hons) degree at another univerisity in Scotland. He said only one of the 20 or so people who graduated this summer have found a job!

I think it would be quite interesting, but I don't know how much work is available afterwards. That, and it would mean spending four years in Dundee! Go Aberdeen!

Sorry to anyone that lives in Dundee. My friend told me that Dundee itself was the worst part of his university experience!

Re:Before our friends across the pond get ticked..

[quibbs0]

"$100k a year in the US isn't ALL that much money."

This entry level pay at a small company sucks. I would take a $70,000 raise...I don't know about you.

And where is that?

[theJML]

Ok, just a simple question, I assume that it means 60k in California... 60k here in VA is a nice amount, especially for starting out! but 60k in Northern VA (near DC) or in Los Angeles, you're lucky to afford a decent apartment on that unless you drive a ways. I've priced it, it's not worth it. If you stick with a 30-40k job somewhere more reasonable, you'll end up with more in the long run.

Re:And where is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

and the sad thing is that is absolutely true. Being laid off in Portland OR and relocating to San Diego I took a 25% salary increase, now I have less money than before.

Re:And where is that?

[Doctor Memory]

Hmmm, I wonder. I made do with $20K living in downtown Chicago. Yeah, it was a little third-floor walk-up, but it was freshly renovated (I had to put in my own phone jack), and it was just two blocks from the bus, or three blocks to the El. I got by OK, and would have gotten by even better if I had had the sense to ditch my car. As it was, I was making a car payment and paying insurance and only driving about once a month out to the suburbs to see friends. Of course, this was back in the mid-80s, so I'm sure some things have changed, but I was still able to afford $8 cover charges and buy a beer or two.

Re:And where is that?

[AuMatar]

THats the mid 80s. Assuming 3% inflation per year, prices are almost double now (doubling time at 3% is 24 years). At 4% inflation, prices are doubled (doubling time about 18 years). 20K/yr is what you make as an assistant manager at a fast food chain.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[DigiShaman]

Depends. Unless he loves programming games, I would be cautious about grooming him for thie job in the future. By the time he finishes college and looks for a job, that market may already be saturated. Think of the IT market in the late 90s. It was gold-rush.

Something to think about: Do you which people made a profit durring the gold rush? It was stores selling the equipment. Very little actually turned out a profit digging for gold.

Time to Play

[MISplice]

But if all I can do is program it then when will I have time to Play the games.. I would rather test for free then get paid to program games. Which is good seeing I can't even program Hello World to save my life.

Re:Time to Play

[Anonymous Coward]

In case you ever need it to save your life...

#include <iostream>

int main(void)
{
    std::cout "Hello World" endl;
    return 0;
}

go indie

[TheSifters]

The article only discusses the retail games industry. There is an entire independent games industry which is growing at an astounding rate. A big reason for this trend is people becoming frustrated and unsatisfied with the "big guys". Being independent is more risky but much more rewarding, partially financially and definitely artistically. It's great to be able to create whatever games you want to create.

I've recently become an independent developer and I love it. Check out my site, which is also my storefront... www.sortsoft.comThere is a great developer community as well which is very supportive of new developers. I strongly urge anyone who wants to get into game development to go the indie route.

Re:go indie

[TheSifters]

oops... that's www.sortasoft.com

Not sure about the numbers.

[LikwidFlux]

The salary potentials that are mentioned on this article are for AAA titles only, your D3s Q4s etc etc. A lot of game programmers and developers start on indie games making very little if anything until they are spotted.

Don't get me wrong, the gaming industry is wonderful, but I've seen plenty friend's enter the Indie game scene thinking they will get discovered and 5 years later they are still making models on a game noone has heard of and working at Home Depot to make money.

Convert that to an hourly wage...

[mike_the_engineer]

$60K a year / 50 weeks per year / 80 hours per week = $15 per hour

Re:Convert that to an hourly wage...

[/dev/trash]

Damn. That's more than I make now.

Re:Convert that to an hourly wage...

[Anonymous Coward]

$60K a year / 50 weeks per year / 80 hours per week = $15 per hour

You only work 50 weeks a year? Are they hiring?

kids!-Doing it "for the love".

[Anonymous Coward]

Shhh! Don't you know you're a bad person if you are asking for money for your efforts. You're suppose to be "doing it for the love". "Love will find a way" and all that.

So Sorry

[LukePieStalker]

Right. Scratch that. DBA jobs suck. Keep moving. There's nothing to see here.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[orderb13]

You're looking at a lot less than that after taxes. If you're lucky you're looking at 3,200.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Turn-X Alphonse]

you're a fucking twat. Go throw yourself off a damn bridge.

If his hobby is playing games then his hobby is playing games. It's not important how much paper he gets given later in life for it. If you're that fucking blind please do as I stated above. His happiness is second to how much money he earns?

You're an asshole. If you gave a fuck about your kids you wouldn't be pissed at him for doing what he enjoyed, instead you get annoyed because GASP he has a hobby. Next time you look at him playing games just think "He's not drinking, smoking crack or knocking girls up". Maybe "silly video games" arn't quite the devil.

And just to point out : You're an asshole.

2yr experience needed

[lateralus_1024]

Here in San Diego, if you have your CS degree and say, 2yrs of experience at $60k, you will find yourself at a crossroad: If you have good presentation skills, and have managed to teach yourself .Net/SQL Server/XML (because God(tm) knows they won't teach that to you at SDSU) then you should have no problem contracting for $60/hr or earning $75k+ once you move to another job. Having 7yrs experience myself, I have come to realization that the easiest way to get a pay raise is to simply move to another company. Frequently updating your resume will remind you of how little you actually know in your field. Diversify, bitches. If you choose to stay in one place, you can bank on a mediocre 3% pay increase annually, stock option carrot dangling, and work with the same technology you played with last year. Just my 2 cents, i don't mean to offend anyone. Mileage will vary.

Re:2yr experience needed

[JhohannaVH]

Ok, damn... it's not just me. It's San Diego. Muwahahahah. Hell, it took me frickin' 3 years here IN SD (with 5 prior years in Colorado) just to GET to 60k. Now granted, I'm not a programmer and I only have an AS in Computer Engineering, but um, DAMN. I've got 15 years in the industry, actively working, supporting it, growing it... You would crap your pants if you knew all the things I'd done... including a full and complete implementation of SOX in IT. (that sucked balls) I've got 9 years of SQL experience, various platforms, I'm seriously OPEN platform, and can save worlds like no man's tomorrow. But guess what? I *just* started making $75k. After working my ass of for *15* years! And I had to jump ships to make more money... boyhowdee am I *ever* glad I did... my timing was *perfect*. Even IF your reviews are outstanding, they are done 6 months late, and even then you're lucky to see 2-3%, and that's IF you're company is turning a healthy profit. But hell yeah!!! Diversify diversify diversify. That was the very first thing that moving to SD taught me. Oh yeah, and don't *EVER* work for the Indian Casinos. EVER. NEVER EVER!!!! - Jho

Re:2yr experience needed

[Anonymous Coward]

SDSU's Computer Engineering (read EMBEDDED, not apps) curriculum got me $70k just out of school. Only gone up from there...

Re:2yr experience needed

[Maxo-Texas]

Last study I read showed that people who changed jobs every 2 years made 25% more after 10 years.

My pay grew about 8% while staying at one company getting my degree and went up over 15% a year for several years when I finally started changing companies.

Currently hunkered down tho- I'm at the top until I get a shot a manager position. At this level there are 5 qualified people for every promotion so moving up is much slower.

That pay sounds really low considering how expensive San Diego is. Not kidding- it sounds really seriously low compared to the midwest.

Re:2yr experience needed

[JhohannaVH]

Maybe it's the fact that I don't have a degree, or that my certifications are irrelevant, or something. Heh. Who knows... more likely, it's the whole girl factor, but then, that's been a massive factor in my last 2 jobs. You'd think we'd be over girls in the tech industry... until you run into older managers who are threatened by them. Heh. But yeah, it does sound low, especially for data protection and disaster planning. :D But hey, it's a job, and it's a good company... so it will do for a while. Until something takes me home, or something happens. :)

Re:2yr experience needed

[Maxo-Texas]

I work in an office full of females. Many are managers. Even on the Indian teams, they have female managers and leads. The main issue I see in the DP field is age discrimination. I'm saving for retirement and working on my career path on the presumption that at 55, I will be unable to find work in the field as a programmer.

I guess it depends on where you work. The lack of a degree may be preventing you from getting work in larger corporations- many larger corporations pretty much require a degree and 4+ years experience to get an interview unless they are hiring you straight out of college.

Re:2yr experience needed

[GoodOmens]

Not entirely true. I dont have a degree and just got picked up by a fairly major coporation (CSC) who has over 78k employees to be a Systems Engineer. Granted they expect me to complete my degree in a reasonable amount of time (they are paying for it though). I did have some decent experience before ... but not much (maybe 1 year relevant).

What about Stability?

[netruner]

I once spoke to a headhunter (around 8 years ago) about a local video game company and was told that since I was looking for a stable job (i.e. $x per year = $x/12 per month, every month) that the company was not a good match for me. It was explained to me that between games there are a lot of layoffs.

I didn't see anything in the article about stability of the job. $60k is good if you can make it consistently, and if you're just starting off, it's probably good. However, if you're looking for a job where you can live in a house, drive a car that won't leave you stranded, and maybe have a family, you need more than $60k to make up for the lack of stability.

I've got an MSCS and 9 years in at the company I started with straight from undergrad. I'm not too far above the $60k, but the stability and other non-tangibles have been excelent. The main theme I've seen is that if you work where the technology is the product and not just a means to a buisness end, the job is much more fulfilling. (but they usually don't pay as much)

Can somebody say "Conflict of Interest"?

[kizzbizz]

Oh come on! I've never owned a tinfoil hat and think the magic bullet theory is bunk, but just rationally look at this story. Who pays IGN's bills? Gamers? I think not. This is the very website that a couple years ago sold the design rights to their main page to MCDOLANDS for cripes sake! Advertisers, primarily VIDEOGAME companies, are the ones paying this writers salary. After selling out for an exorbanent amount of money, I'm sure profits are now the primary. I do not believe it is too far of a jump to assume that maybe, just maybe, some advertisers whipsered into IGN corporates ear that they should do a story on how great getting into the industry is. Yadda Yadda, we have this:

...the next big question is going to be trying to decide if you want the gas guzzling Ferrari in yellow or red or take the low key approach and get a hybrid vehicle to show that you care for the environment and are efficient with your money. Because hippy chicks do it way better than some huge fake breasted Sunset-hopping harlot. Or, uh, so we hear.

The entire article reads like a pampflet from EA for prospective college grads. Just read the first 50 posts and you'll see from first hand anecdotal experience that workers in the gaming industry are NOT living the kind of life that this article describes. In my view, this is just useless junk from a sold out company. Welcome to the new "journalism".

Re:Can somebody say "Conflict of Interest"?

[Anonymous Coward]

60K in LA doesn't go near as far as 50K in Northern Indiana. 80 hours vs. 40 hours? I can have more money not making video games, and have 40 hours extra time to play them for fun, not for work....

Big city? Not for me.

Or are they?

[Anonymous Coward]

Granted that most of the information presented in the article is either false or hyped beyond exaggeration, IGN is not entirely clueless. Their motive here is not to write a fact-filled article, presenting unbiased information to a crowd of prospective game developers.

What is it, then? To make money. Consider two things:

-This article is geared toward adolescents, and continues the marginal trend within America of promoting questionable possibilities because, survey says: kids like to dream.
-Checking just above the article, one will notice the banner indicating "Sponsored by Full Sail" in so many words. What is Full Sail, you ask? An imitation private college designed to produced talentless chum at the measly expense of $30k. Per year.

IGN is no more clueless than they are poor, but they definitely hope to take advantage of the fact that their userbase is indeed clueless. But what more should we expect from America's biased, profiteering media?

Re:Or are they?

[Dogtanian]

Only two people noted the 'Full Sail' connection, and they're both stuck at 0; to note what the parent post says:-

Checking just above the article, one will notice the banner indicating "Sponsored by Full Sail" in so many words. What is Full Sail, you ask? An imitation private college designed to produced talentless chum at the measly expense of $30k. Per year.

Re:Or are they?

[Anonymous Coward]

60 grand isn't out of reach for an entry level software engineer, in fact I was offered more than that (in North Carolina, which has a much lower cost of living than CA where many of these jobs are located) when I graduated nearly a year ago. Granted I had experience as an intern and a 3.7ish GPA, so if you are barely passing or have no experience you may have a bit more trouble landing a job.

Re:Or are they?

[pipingguy]

-This article is geared toward adolescents, and continues the marginal trend within America of promoting questionable possibilities because, survey says: kids like to dream.

-Checking just above the article, one will notice the banner indicating "Sponsored by Full Sail" in so many words. What is Full Sail, you ask? An imitation private college designed to produced talentless chum at the measly expense of $30k. Per year.
 
 

There are essentially two "booming" markets today:

-kids, who will buy anything that's "cool" with their parents' money

-older folk, who are worried about their future

Re:Or are they?

[Anonymous Coward]

continues the marginal trend within America of promoting questionable possibilities

You seem to think becoming a games programmer is as hard as becoming a rock musician.

It isn't.

Anyone can become a games programmer. All large games houses are hiring right now and if you can program C or C++ with skill, never mind assembly, you can get a job on $60k or so just by turning up for interview and answering a few programming questions. All you need in addition is enthusiasm.

The possibility of becoming a games programmer is no more questionable than the possibility of becoming an SQL Server administrator.

$60k? not bloody likely!

[Anonymous Coward]

Beginning programmers, whether you're working on tools, gameplay, networking, audio, AI, or animation, you can expect to start off with a salary in the area of $60K

This is complete bullshit. Maybe after 3 or 4 years of game industry experience, you could get a programming job for $60k/year, but not fresh out of college. They probably looked up the salaries for non-game-industry engineers and assumed it was the same rate. It isn't.

Plus, if you're in the game industry, you'll be working around 50% more than full time (with no extra pay for overtime, since you're on salary), so your hourly rate is even lower.

In the unlikely event that you make $60k as an entry level programmer at a game company, AND work near 40 hours a week, consider yourself extremely fortunate, and savor those precious times :)

Re:Before our friends across the pond get ticked..

[Anonymous Coward]

you really have no clue do you.

$100,000 a year get's you in the BMW driving crowd and living in the $300K house in sane locations. (no california and New york are not sane by any stretch of anyone's imagination) A 325i is cheap at ~$49K and I can get a Ferarri for around that on a used lot. Porche is certianly doable.

Anyone making $100K is making damn good money. only retards that have no clue to what income really is thinks otherwise. Hell that amount will get you a nice place in the Chicago suburbs with only a 1.5 hour drive to work (the dan ryan sucks... hell any big city traffic sucks) a nice big H-1 hummer and plenty of money to feed it the $3.00 a gallon gasoline.

get a clue you idiot, $100K a year is damn good money.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Rycross]

But that $60k is probably going to be in a big city where it isn't worth that much. I started out making $40k as a normal programmer. Where I live, thats equivalent to making roughly $60k in Chicago, or $80k in San Francisco. With benefits.

Ugh...

[bypedd]

Because hippy chicks do it way better than some huge fake breasted Sunset-hopping harlot

I made it all the way through and that was our closing thought. IGN dissapoints in general, but what's with the immaturity there? Funny they didn't mention that proportion of male/female programmers, yet it's clear with that sentence.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[robertjw]

Something to think about: Do you which people made a profit durring the gold rush? It was stores selling the equipment. Very little actually turned out a profit digging for gold.

Actually, it was more than that. The brothels, the stables, restaurants, saloons, casinos all made money during the gold rush. Probably the LEAST amount of money was made by anyone finding gold. IT industry is similar. I don't think we would be where we are now without the dotcom boom. Not many dotcom companies made money during the rush, but these days everyone from Apple to Skype are benefiting from the things that went on.

A parallel from my generation

[StressGuy]

I grew up (mostly) near the Chicagoland area in a small town where every other male played guitar. All of us were in garage bands at one time or another and, of course, we all had aspirations of "making the big time". As I got older, I would sometimes wonder what I would do if my kid decided he wanted to pursue his dream of being a "rockstar". The answer is pretty simple if you give it some thought. To even have the remotest shot at such a career, you have to be an extremely talented musician (yea, I know, I just put a "flame me" target on my back with that one, but, really, the odds of a mediocre talent making it are a lot smaller than a genuine talent). So, if that is really his interest, I would let him study music. Odds are, he won't "make the bigtime", but he could be a studio musician, producer, etc. A lot of would be rockstars I knew eventually went the studio route. The point is even if he doesn't realize his dream, he's still picking up a marketable skill in a field he loves.

I see the same thing with computer gaming. To write games you need skills in math, physics, computer science, art, storytelling, etc. All very marketable skills. Seems like a no-brainer. Even if you don't write the next "DOOM", you've still got plenty of other options.

So, if my kid wants to get into the video game industry, I'd be inclined to support him.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[raverbuzzy]

In my experiance salary's are a lot lower in the UK. I've been working in the States now for 5 years where salary's are higer and everything costs less. Plus it doesn't rain as much.

My god, you really are dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

Dooood.

A 325i new costs about $35K.

Okay, that's not that important except that it shows that you haven't a clue.

What is important is that if you are in this industry for more than about 10 years and you *aren't* making $100K, you're probably a cluefuck. A staff programmer. Canon fodder.

Congrats.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[mmp]

What makes you think that spending lots of time playing video games has anything to do with being a good game developer? Studying more math, for example, would probably be time better spent to that end.

-matt

Facts are off

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the big guys (EA, Ubi, etc) pay like this, but the little guys don't. I was a lead programmer, 5+ years experience (5 years means more in the game industry than in most; likely because it really means you've done the work of 10 years). I was making $58,000. Another lead was making slightly more, probably around $65,000. Starting programmers got $25,000-$35,000, depending on how excited they were. (More excited == less money, obviously)

Bear in mind, the guys with the big salaries are all excited to fill out these surveys, while the poor grunts making what I was are all too busy. Gamasutra.com (also Game Developer Magazine) runs a better survey every year, with more accurate numbers.

Maybe they are harder to find

[juancn]

What you say may be true.

But game development requires more bizarre skills than most common types of development (enterpise applications, web applications, etc.)

It usually involves quite complex math skills, knowledge of physics and many obscure algorithmic techniques that most programmers are not familiarized with.

I'm not saying that one type of programmers is necessary better than the other, just that good game prgrammers are even harder to find than (for lack of a better word) 'regular' programmers. That might justify the higher salary.

Re:Maybe they are harder to find

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do people think $110K is so high?

I live in the UK and make about $110K (with the low exchange rate). The sort of work required at the top of the games industry is, these days, the design + architecture of custom embedded systems containing millions of LOCs, combined with some pure maths research, pure CS research, the need to keep up-to-date with a huge variety of CS theoretical and engineering disciplines from graphics to AI, in every domain from rich client GUIs to low-level servers. We are currently trying to come to terms with real-time programming on systems with 6 or 8 cores - academia has had this problem for 2 decades and has nothing useful for real-time. Game programmers are figuring this stuff out today.

Granted, few people can keep on top of all this and keep the highest level generalist jobs, but if you were doing anything like this for a standard engineering house you'd be earning a hell of a lot more than $110K (in the UK, salaries for such roles go to almost $160K).

And if $110K is the cap for the very best and brightest, what do you think merely competent people are getting? $80K is about the limit in practice for most people.

Games programmers are very much underpaid considering the required skillset.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[bypedd]

It is indeed "funny" that they completely ignore the quality of life issue, when IGDA devotes a large portion of their work to that topic.

If we were to take this story and draw it to its absurd, logical conclusion, we could just as well write an article about all the money that sex workers pull down without referencing the health issues (and no health care), the personal sacrifices and the quality of life issues.

If you don't mention quality of life, benefits, anti-discrimination considerations and job security, you might as well just pick a career based on the one with the most money and hope it isn't too bad.

What that really means...

[nonsequitor]

I graduated college in '03 with a few years experience from my various internships and coops. I did consulting for a year after school, and now I'm happily employed full time. I was not been able to stay unemployed between jobs either, the head hunters find me.

What I have found to be true with the whole years of experience thing is this: Those are not actually lower bounds, in fact its usually an upper bound. The fact of the matter is, experience costs money, and training someone also costs money. If you can do a job, apply for it. If your resume speaks for itself, they will call you. There is a lack of quality programmers out there, HR departments usually struggle to staff projects. They put more experience than they expect to find, hoping that the perfect person for the job is actually looking for work, odds are, they aren't. I got a call from a head hunter about a position requiring 10 yrs of experience, could I have gotten the job? Probably. Did I apply? No, I have a great job already. (I have 4 yrs experience, 2 not counting experience while in college).

Take two things into consideration....

[ProppaT]

1) IGN is assuming that everybody in the game industry is working in CA because they're clueless like that.

2) $60k isn't much in CA.

Seriously, I know the entry level folks over here at EA Tiburon in Orlando aren't starting out at that.

Re:Before our friends across the pond get ticked..

[Neoprofin]

Not a lot of money my ass.
As a student working part time(in Madison Wi, voted best city in America to live in twice in the past ten years, as well as a number of other awards)I make about $11,000 a year. That covers food, rent, car insurance, gas, movies, electricity, etc etc. The only thing it doesn't pay for is tuition.

Now lets assume I made 10 times that? Not a lot of money? I'd sell my mother to have another $66K a year to play with.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[tont0r]

Okay, now I'm not so pissed at my kids for spending time playing video games. My eldest is working on a high school class assignment programming a video game. If he can start at ~$60K as a college grad, then I guess his hours spent gaming will not have been a waste.
you would be amazed how many people who work on games like john madden football dont really play games at all. also i know plenty of people play video games better than anyone i know, but cant program to save their life. playing and programming dont go hand and hand at all. so perhaps you should go scold your son some more for not being manly and playing sports.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we say Bitter??
I agree with his point in general but WOW is this guy going Postal!

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Anonymous Coward]

A friend of mine just graduated with a BSc Games Technology (Hons) degree at another univerisity in Scotland. He said only one of the 20 or so people who graduated this summer have found a job!

That's because it was Abertay, the former poly, not Dundee's *real* "University of Dundee".

That, and it would mean spending four years in Dundee! Go Aberdeen!

Sure, Dundee is a boring, grey, post-industrial place without the critical mass to give it a decent "city" feel, and despite getting more sun than pretty much any other Scottish city doesn't have much of interest for it to shine on. And yeah, I was born there, and I'm sick of the place.

But at least Dundonians aren't a bunch of sheepshaggers. :)

And really... Aberdeen? It's relatively big, but it's pretty damn isolated. This city, stuck miles up the coast, with nothing of interest for God knows how many miles. Bleh...

Re:Starting at $60K?

[mcb]

It's different in the US...I'm a senior in CS, just went to my school's career fair. In the Philadelphia area I will expect to make between $50k and $60k a year.

Re:Before our friends across the pond get ticked..

[bleckywelcky]

Problem is, I don't know what your mother is worth. However, the base price for any mother starts at about $15k/year. So I'll offer you $15k/year for your mother unless you can prove otherwise that she is worth $66k/year.

Mastercard commercial...

[Cutting_Crew]

Video Game Programmer: $80,000
Lunch Breaks in the cafeteria: $0
Pac-man and Galaga in the gameroom: $0
Overnight uber Sleeping Bag and Pillow: $99.99
reading about ea_spouse: priceless

There are some marriages money cant buy, for everything else theres divorce.

Game Developer Magazine Annual Survey

[eLDeR_MMHS]

A 2003 copy of the survey the IGN article refers to:

2003 Game Development Salary Survey
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20040211/olsen_0 1.shtml (free registration required)

This one is based on data for U.S. developers. All main positions are covered from entry to "director" for programming/engineering, production, art, etc. They do this annually around Fall and report in Winter/Spring of the next year. IMO, one of the regularly anticipated features each year just to see how you'd stack up against folks in/among the industry.

With some digging around I'm sure someone can find the 2004 survey.

Re:Game Developer Magazine Annual Survey

[Anonymous Coward]

The Gamasutra surveys are crap. The numbers are inflated because the individuals filling in the numbers want a bigger salary, so they inflate their salary. Then they can take the magazine to their boss to get a raise.

I work for a game company in HR. 60K starting out of school is bogus. I see the real surveys filled in by other HR departments.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just don't get sick.

Re:Before our friends across the pond get ticked..

[boomgopher]

People who make $100k a year do not neccessarily drive Lambo's either. In fact, I bet very FEW people who make $100k a year drive "great" cars - $100k a year in the US isn't ALL that much money. Especially if you're supporting a family.

Amen - in many/most parts of California, making $100K is barely enough to rent a halfway decent 3BR home and support a small family with a middle-class lifestyle. Heaven help you if you want to actually buy a home.

"Presented by Full Sail"

[Anonymous Coward]

No one posting comments here seems to have noticed that the article is "Presented by Full Sail". It's basically an adver-ticle to entice students into their video game school. How else do you do that than by exagerrating salary expectations?

Base salary of $60K?

[DaveCBio]

Bwahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha! I'm not sure where they got that figure, but there is no way programmers fresh out of school are being hired on at $60K a year unless they are something special or the cost of living where they are going to work is insane.

Re:Base salary of $60K?

[DaveCBio]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that the IGDA salary surveys are about as accurate as any survey. In other words take them with a suitable dose of salt. People always lie on surveys.

Re:Base salary of $60K?

[Anonymous Coward]

The average salary for a undergrad majoring in CS from my univ. is $51K. Considering that I'm sure a number of grads are taking up the $40K jobs, that must mean there are at least *some* $60K jobs out there just to balance it out (or a helluvalota $52K jobs :)

Re:Base salary of $60K?

[DaveCBio]

I'm sure there are $60K jobs, but traditionally the gaming industry pays less than average because people are willing to take lower salaries because of the supposed "fun" of a gaming job.

Beware Future Royalties

[Anonymous Coward]

with the potential for more in the way of sales-based royalties or bonuses or stock options

One other area is "Future Royalties". It's basically the same thing as an advance in the book publishing world: You get given an advance on promised royalties because working for three years on your base salary, before the royalties (that can sometimes almost double it) come in, sucks.

The danger is that you end up working for a certain company that hasn't put out a follow up title in "FOREVER" *hint* *hint*

Rumour has it that those guys have been collecting (and spending) their future royalty payments. Assume you've collected your $50K future royalties each year. And, as the game keeps slipping, you have collected five of them. You now have quarter of a million dollars that you've long since paid taxes on and spent the rest of. If the game never releases or you get laid off, you don't have to repay it. If, on the other hand, you quit before the game releases, you owe the full amount. End result, the company effectively gains slaves who don't want to be there, desperately want to work elsewhere, but can't leave without finding a quarter million to buy their freedom. Now see if you can guess how motivated that must make them all.

So, future royalties are a great way of telling yourself you're on a much higher salary whilst you wait for a game to release. Get hired in to someone like Obsidian with an amazing track record and amazing licenses (NWN2, KOTOR3, etc.) and it makes sense. Get hired in to a developer that slips and you become their indebted slave with no freedom to leave.

It all depends on your passion I guess...

[AdamWeeden]

I'm a contractor for a company doing development work and I just took over the job for a guy who went into games. For free. He's working for a game company for 3 months as an intern for just a CHANCE to work for them permanently.

Re:It all depends on your passion I guess...

[DaveCBio]

I'm sorry to say this, but that guy is a frikkin' idiot. Working at a game company is just a job. Once the shine wears off he'll realize what a stupid move he made.

Re:Before our friends across the pond get ticked..

[Anonymous Coward]

I am guessing that you live alone though, in a lower cost area. I can tell you that in the NYC metro area, 100k will indeed not get you very far. Don't get me wrong, you won't be hurting, but I am single and make 25% less than that, and I am still forced to rent and have 3 roommates. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to be supposedly doing quite well while in reality I am just eeking through life like everyone else. And of course, you tell people from less expensive areas this and they say "75k?! oh go cry me a river..."

Re:Before our friends across the pond get ticked..

[jferris]

To a student, finding a five spot in the couch cushion is a lot of money. ;-)

There is a certain unwritten law that the more you make the more you spend. That is, of course, until you hit the lottery or become a CTO of a company that these rules start to fall apart because you will have more money than a reasonable person should have at any given time.

I moved from Arizona a couple of years ago, where I "topped out" at $56k. I make a shade less than twice of that now, but it comes at a price.

I am a software developer (not in the gaming industry) and I work in Manhattan. Of course, I live eighty miles from where I work so that I can enjoy some of the money that I actually earn. I'd say commute time is four to five hours a day, round-trip. So, that is at least twelve hour workdays. Could I work where I live? Sure. Could I live on it? Probably not.

Don't get me wrong, Madison is a great city, but $11k there (and for a student) is a nice little gig. You will make more when you are finished with school. Then you will run into the following psuedo-code paradigm:

Step 1: Date / Get Married / Have Children (Reduce money in pocket by 50%-75%) Step 2: Get promotion (Increase money in pocket by 10%) Step 3: Pick a number between one and ten. a: Wrong number? Step 3.a.1: Get divorced (Reduce money in pocket by 50%-75%) Step 3.a.2: Go to Step 1 b: Right number? Step 3.b.1: Go to Step 2 Step 4: Get your job offshored and get a job at Taco Bell (Reduce money in pocket by 50%-75%) Step 5: Get promotion to second assistant manager in-training (Increase money in pocket by 2%) Step 6: Collect Social Security when you reach 65 (Increase money in pocket by 20%) Step 7: If you have gotten this far without a divide by zero error, you are in better shape than I thought...

My advice to you. Stay in school as long as you can! Milk it! Change majors every year. When they run out of majors, find a new school with majors that you never even thought of before. Whatever you do, don't graduate!

Tales from the real world

[Anonymous Coward]

In case anyone is curious, here's the salary details of my path as a programmer in the games industry.
-Directly out of college, with a BS in Computer Science, I started at a small independent developer, as an intern, at "$8.50 an hour" (except that I didn't receive overtime, or even pay for when I worked over 40 hours, as I always did). No benefits.
-After a few months, I got this internship pay raised to $25k/yr. Still no benefits.
-Finally, after nearly a YEAR of this internship, I was hired on for a "permanent" position, at $30k/yr. (I should interject at this point that my company was definitely on the cheap side - again, this was a pretty new, independent developer. Also note that the company was in Texas.) The benefits were okay but not great - no vision, for instance.
-Six months after being brought on full-time, my salary was increased to $35k.
-Three months after that, fed up of being a good programmer that was paid so little, I interviewed with a much larger company (a publisher which also owns more than one internal development team) and obtained an offer for $60k/yr. I successfully negotiated for this to be increased to $65k/yr. (Note that I had two years real-world programming experience in the games industry at this point. Also note that this new position, also, was in the Midwest, so cost-of-living was comparable.)
-I asked my current employer (the small independent company) for a counter-offer; they came up to $58k/yr. I rejected their counter-offer, partly because it was lower and partly because of the risk inherent in such counter-offers.

Also, I know that the CTO/Head Programmer at the small developer made something something slightly less than $360k/yr (he was from another country and his position/salary had to be posted for an American alternative to be sought, according to law). He had a Master's degree, several years of experience, and extremely good technical knowledge.

Obligatory penny arcade comic

[Anonymous Coward]

More than that, this is probably where the parent got the idea.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2003-01- 24&res=l

Re:Obligatory penny arcade comic

[rlp]

Not really (I've got 'Tetrix' on my Zaurus). But GREAT link!!

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Anonymous Coward]

...it's just a shame about all those silly yanks! ;)

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Anonymous Coward]

"But at least Dundonians aren't a bunch of sheepshaggers. :)"

What do New Zealanders have to do with it?

Ignore the logic error.

[jferris]

QA fell down on the job. If you get the number, go to step 4 - not two. Life might seem like an infinite loop, but I digress. ;-)

Re:Before our friends across the pond get ticked..

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont mean to flame, but you live in Bumblefuck Wisconsin. Also keep in mind that taxes really kill you. In reality 66k more per year is only about 33k in your pocket. I am sure part of the reason it was voted best to place live is its low cost of living.

My (share of) annual rent is more than 11k a year, and I live with three roommates.

Starting Salaries

[paladinwannabe2]

The average CS major at my school (University of Missouri-Rolla) mades over $51k/yr when they graduate with a bachelor's- working at positions that are usually about 50 hours a week. All major gaming companies, from what I've heard, are closer to 60 hours a week (Unless you work for EA games, where 60 hours would be considered a light load- that's less than 10 hours a day). Also, I'm assuming IGN is talking about development position alongs the coasts or something to get higher numbers- 60k/year in, say, Seattle will get you about the same standard of living as 38k/year here in Missouri. (Even without factoring in cost of living, though, we're still getting more money per hour). From what I've seen, every gaming company will want you to work more hours for less money than a comparable position elsewhere. Don't be dumb enough to work at a gaming company because you want the money. If you love games, it might be worth it- but I'd rather have more free time to play the games and more money to buy them with.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[hal2814]

Either your numbers are off or you pay a bundle in state taxes or you don't have kids and a mortgage. At $60k, I bring home $3750 after taxes and health insurance.

that must be a joke

[chrisnewbie]

Oh Yeak 60 K a year hahahhahahhahahhahhah for starters hahahahahhahahahhahahhahah

Who? a one man enterprise? i'm sure ubisof and it's 2000 game designers worlwide are paid 60 k when they start....wink! wink!

BS, total bullshit, and I know what im speaking of

[NeedleSurfer]

I have quite a few friends working in the video game industry, they mostly started with a salary of 10-12$ an hour, SOME of them got promotion and now have 32-36K$ salary, and that's canadian money. The argument being that so many people want to do this job that if they aren't happy with their salary they can go look elsewhere, everybody is replaceable. Problem is, the game industry want a bigger pool of people to draw talent from so they ask their friend to write BS articles about how programmers start at awesome salaries, young impressionnable to-be-students pick up private school courses (cause they are better, or so they say) at 12-20K$ per year, those school then make a crapload of money, about 10-20 students get jobs at the end of the year (out of an average of 250 student per school). Most of these jobs, if not all, are as game testers, not programmers. After a few years they get to program a bit, by then only 2-5 student of the original 250 are still in the business at the above mentionned salary. In a few year maybe one of them will get promotted to head programmer or something like that and will get the nice salary. Meanwhile hundreds of students get out of school with an enormous debt with no possibility of following another course (having expended most of the possible loan limit imposed by the government, 25K in Canada) and no interesting job to pick from except multimedia houses where they will get paid a meager salary to do a very uninteresting job. I have worked in one of those school, during 3 years and I got out because of this. The industry is completely saturated and those kind of articles are extremely evil by nature because they help to sell unatainable dreams to impressionnable young students. This is the kind of BS article that make me proud of not having IGN in my bookmarks.

Don't believe the hype

Re:Starting at $60K?

[KingVance]

Ouch. I feel a reference to the lack of universal healthcare.

Id rather get sick here where we have to pay for quality healthcare than get sick in canada where everything is substandard because its government funded.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[orderb13]

Actually, that is without kids and mortage. And that isn't what I bring home, it is about 3,400 (no state taxes) every two weeks. I figured being single in Cali, paying their taxes would drop it a bit lower than what I get.

Re:I work at a Major Game Company - me too

[6wl]

First off, anyone that tells you working in the games industry is a path to fame and fortune, slap them in the face. For 99.9% of people, thats a complete lie.

Sure, our company directors drive Ferraris, 911 GTs, Z4s etc, but the rest of us working class peasants are in 1.1ltr rustbuckets (and worse, some at our place are stuck with public transport!) And we are a driving / racing games company!

Best advice I can give to any games players that want to join the industry - DONT. If you enjoy gaming and love the idea of working on great games, people above you will see that, and get you working all the hours god sends on the back of your passion. Only join the industry if you don't really give a damn, then you can remain objective, work your employment hours and still have a life.

Bottom line, enjoy your games, don't become bitter and twisted like me, stay away from the industry, keep loving games, don't get involved.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Anonymous Coward]

that's fine if you can afford it...

Beginning OSS game designers can expect $0 a year

[elrous0]

But, on the upside, you get lots of stock options in a company whose business plan consists of something like:

• Give our software away for free
• ??
• Profit!

-Eric

RTSDFTFA

[drspooky]

I see alot of people writing off the data in the article based on their own anecdotal evidence or their dislike of IGN. If anyone would take the time to research other sources of data on game industry salaries, you would see that the figures quoted in the article are reasonably correct. As of the 2003 Gamasutra salary survery(registration required), a programmer with less than 2 years experience made an average of $59,400. The average design salary with a similar level of experience as $41,652. An artist out of school could expect around $40,573.

If I remember correctly, the 2004 survey hovered around the same figures, with the average design salary falling a bit.

And while we're at it, most people seem to take their opinions on the hours we work from ea_spouse, rather than surveys and data. Only 35% of those surveyed by the IDGA reported working a crunch time, and a mere 13% work over 80 hours a week during crunch time.

So while yes, there is room for improvement in the hours that we put in, there are factors invovled which are purely anecdotal and immeasurable. The primary one for me being the I love what I do, and I often look forward to coming to work, which is something that I've never experienced in any other industry I've worked in.

---
EJC

Re:RTSDFTFA

[Rycross]

Good post, but I'd like to point out that saying someone makes $60k a year doesn't tell you much about how much spending money they actually have. Cost of living can be dramatically different in different parts of the globe. I could move to California, be making more than I am now, and live in worse conditions with less spending money.

I'm glad to hear that crunch times and whatnot aren't as bad. Out of curiosity how much do you actually work in a week?

Re:RTSDFTFA

[drspooky]

That's the nice thing about the Gamasutra surveys, they take into account salaries from all over the country and are a national average. Having lived in a few different places, cost of living really does make a difference. As far as what I work, I am not a good example. I have a habit of joining projects late in development. However, my worst weeks have never been more than 60 hours. Right now, we're in a crunch and I'm doing about 50ish, which just doesn't seem that bad to me. Although it is an anecdotal point, most non-game development people I know work as much as I do.

Re:RTSDFTFA

[Rycross]

Actually, in my book thats not really a nice thing (taking into account salaries from all over the country). Thats because you have no idea how much these people are really making. Could be that the vast majority of people surveyed are working in California, where $60k is not that much money. It could be that the people surveyed are working at Volition, in which case $60k is a lot of money.

I'm assuming that there's no breakdown of location, because I can't login (forgot my gamasutra login), and if thats the survey doesn't tell you anything. It would be a lot more useful if it was broken down by state/city, or if the income was adjusted based on living expenses.

Its really cool you found a good job in the game industry. I lost interest in it when I learned that 80 hour weeks were (supposably) common. I also had held a normal 40 hour a week job, and really learned to love my free time, so I was really hesitent to go into the industry for seemingly low pay and long hours. I may take another look if its not really that bad, but are you sure you just didn't get lucky?

Re:RTSDFTFA

[drspooky]

There is a breakdown by region at the end of the survey. The thing about national salary surveys is that the data is always tainted with regards to location, but in my experience, the salaries rise and fall dependent on the location. I job that pays 60K in LA, will probablly pay 40K in Austin. Point was that there was data to support the figure in the article that everyone was jumping on. As far as me, while I do lead a charmed life, I think my experience is more the norm. There are crunchtimes, but they aren't as bad as ea_spouse reported across the entire industry when you exclude the EA Redwood and LA studios. When is does happen for an extended period of time, it's 99% of the time as a result of the mismanagement of time and schedules. Management is notoriously bad across the industry because most leads and producers are promoted from other positions and have no training or experience in managing people. The upside of it being such a clear cause is that you can usually spot it in the interview process. I was very choosy about where I went to (after my first job, which I took for the experience and the ability to choose my second). I turned down a few offers before I found the studio that I felt fit me the best. So many people are eager and willing to work for anyone who will let them create a game that they often sell themselves short. Because entry into this industry is so fiecely competative, newcomers think that they will never get another shot at what they are doing. Like any job, creative or not, the fit needs to be right.

Re:RTSDFTFA

[Rycross]

Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it.

Re:Starting at $60K? - Try $40k

[MaineCoon]

His time is still wasted. Anyone can play games. It takes a very different mindset to make games. If, after playing for an hour, he goes off and starts coming up with his own ideas and trying to create games on his own... then maybe he's cut out for it. A love of playing games is different from a love of making them. It helps to have both, but without the latter, he'll never cut it.

Second, that article is BS. Starting salary is more like $35-45k for entry level engineers, even living in high cost of living areas like Southern California.

In Soviet Russia...

[RingDev]

The programmers pay to code.

Sorry, had too.

-Rick

I love it!

[TiggertheMad]

royalties

BWHahahahahaha ahhahahhhahahahahahhhahahhahahhahahahhh... (pant)(pant)
Ahhahahahahahhahahah hahahahhah hahahahh hhah hhahahha... (pant)(pant)
AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHAAhahahaha hahahahahahhah hahahh hahh... (pant)(pant)
hahahahah.....hahahahh......haha...... (gasp) Oh, *ahem*......hehe..er, *cough*....hehe...hehhhhheee...


Sorry, hehehehe, *ahem*....... Now, I think- royalties

AAHAHAHHAHAHHHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHA!

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Doppler00]

If you live in California, are single, and are spending $2,500 a month on all expenses you are living beyond your means. I live off of about $1,200 in expenses every month here in the bay area. I'm saving the rest of my money for a house, which hopefully by the time the housing market crashes here won't be so expensive.

And I totally don't believe the $60k figure. Unless you're a 4.0 student coming out of a well respected university, you're not going to make that much anywhere starting out.

Because it leads to lying with statistics

[tepples]

So why would someone include people in a salary that clearly don't meet the basic requirements of inclusion in the survey?

If you're trying to use the statistic as part of an argument for or against trying to enter the video game industry, the basic requirements themselves are biased.

They call them unemployed, and they aren't included in fun little surveys because they aren't relevant.

If I starve to death because I can't find a job, how is that "not relevant"?

Re:75% fresh meat?

[OverflowingBitBucket]

losing your job when your game crashes and burns in the market

You forgot: losing your job when your game does really well in the market. The games industy isn't always the nicest of places...

Make up your own damn mind!

[Chris Burke]

Either going into the computer industry is a bad choice or it's not.

No. The decision of whether to go into the computer industry or not is complicated, and there is no possible way you can reduce it to a simple good/bad value, especially as a generalization that applies to everyone since that seems to be what you are asking for.

Life is complicated. There are precious few equations in math that can be reduced to a constant. The equations that govern our lives in human society are not among them. But people demand that they be forced into single, binary values. This makes no sense, and decisions based on such nonsensical thinking fail. "Going into computers is a bad choice or it's not." "Getting lasik surgery is a bad choice or it's not." "You're either with us or against us." No! The universe is not a collection of binary choices. You have to think about and consider all the actual variables that make up whether something is true for you.

The fact that not only do you expect "should M go into computers?" to be reduced to a True/False constant for all values of M, but that you expect /. to do pick the constant for you, rather frightens me.

He didn't make up his mind about his future in time for college deadlines, and still reads slashdot and their conflicting outlooks on the future.

So you're saying this hypothetical idiot was going to base his career choice entirely on Slashdot Groupthink(tm), but because there was no consensus and actually several sides to the story that required consideration, he was unable to make up his mind and became a grocer?

GOOD. We don't need another engineer who isn't capable of basic critical thinking and decision making, or who thinks every decision in life can be represented by a single boolean value. That isn't even true in programming, much less real life, so I doubt this person would in the long run be a good engineer anyway. I can only imagine what will happen when this fool tries to buy a house. "Variable vs fixed rate mortages... why can't you just tell me which one is better?!"

In the end, no, "us slashdotters" not need to "make up our mind". Slashdotters need to continue to hear about and discuss all the factors that go into these decisions so that each of us can make as informed a decision as possble. Not have that decision made for us.

Re:Make up your own damn mind!

[emseabrown]

I find your ideas intruiging and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

What is Full Sail, you ask?

[Anonymous Coward]

a pacific coast brewing company!
fullsailbrewing.com

love these guys, great pale ale

Wonka?

[BancBoy]

Well Wonka A pays nothing for health insurance

Wonka A? That would be Gene Wilder, correct?

And that is on topic, there is a video game...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472063/

Re:BS, total bullshit, and I know what im speaking

[OregonComputerSoluti]

Feh -- Listen to IGN tell it, and anyone going into college should go into game-design related courses of study (or preferrably major in game-design)... IGN seems to stand for (as I see it anyway) Ignorant Group of Nutbags! I chose to major in software engineering (I looked at game related studies, and at pursuing a career designing games, but decided the money was elsewhere), and I have never looked back. I graduated in 2002 in Oregon (not the most opportune place for a CS major, but not horrible either) right after the .com bubble burst. During my senior year, the bunch of us graduates went from planning who we would work for, and how much $$ we would make, to scrambling to find any job, and watching many of our fellow graduates cancel plans and move home to live with parents!!! Those of us who picked software and/or business related courses of study did OK, but those (including my best friend) who went the games design patch were left out cold. Today, a couple of years later, and I make over 60K per year (salaried at that PLUS any overtime is compensated at time and a half as well) as a DB administrator -- I have fun at work, I get to look on the internet as much as I want while I work, and get paid great for it. My friends who were looking to get into game design neglected many essential courses for use in business IT/CS work, and cannot find jobs that pay even half of what I make (still). 2 are trying to go the independent game design route while working at Frys as a cashier and a salesman respectively. My younger brother is studying graphic arts at UAT in Arizona (you can see the ads in the back of PCGamer), and hopes to get into game design when he gets out. I wish him the best of luck, but my wife and I have already cleared out the spare room at our house for him, since when he graduates, I have a feeling he will be staying with us for a while! I do not want to denegrate those who go into game design (I love the work that comes from it), but you are braver souls that I am! I chose the path where it looked like I should be able to get steady work, decent money, and do something I liked. I have not regretted it yet!

A little more authoritative

[cgenman]

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20040211/olsen_0 1.shtml

Baby-mill.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Not a student of the labor movement and its history, eh?"

What does pregnancy have to do with it?

wish I had mod points

[Optic7]

Very well said, and is common advice by wealthy people. There are books about this stuff, particularly "The Millionaire Next Door". Just out of curiosity (you don't have to answer), how much do you make just from web development, not including the real estate and other stuff? And how did you get into it? CS degree?

Thanks!

Shenan

Re:wish I had mod points

[leabre]

Interesting question.

From employment alone... $155k (split evently between my income and my wife's income). However, beyond that, even though I get to claim the income/loss, I'm at break-even. It'll be approximately 1 year before I begin to see profit from the investments. I went into this (real-estate investing) about a year ago with very high asperations but it didn't take long to learn the harsh realities... it isn't a get rich quick scheme (and I wasn't looking for one). Its a LOT of hard work, and research, and playing the game or getting played (as I learned the hard way). I'm completely honest and because of that, it takes me longer to get where I want to go, but I always get there, and when I do, I'm not fragile. I've earned it. Time to grow and move on to the next.

Also, everyones advise is different. Mine usually contradicts popular belief, but works exceptionally well for me (I'm a problem solver, I think for myself). It's okay to invest into real-estate if you have consumer debt, just remember, your borrowing power is diminished and your interest rates will be higher. I waited 2 years before I could pay off my debts. Having spoke with a financial adviser, they ask you to pay off higher interest debts first. We came up with a plan. It would have taken me 5 years to pay off with that plan. Instead, I paid of the highest per month first, and then combined it with the difference to pay off the next highest per month, and repeated until I had no debt, took 2 years. Do with that advice as you will.

Next, I have no degree. I'm working towards a business degree. I'm paying for this myself out of my pocket, as well as my wife's masters degree (which her company reimburses if she gets A's and she does). I started as a VB6 programmer (professionally) in 1997. But I've been programming since 1989 otherwise. Did some database/front ends for some warehouse companies, real-estate, disbtribution and so on. My first 4 jobs, I changed every year, doubled my income. Then I got laid off a year and found my current job. Consulting during the unemployment. My income didn't double, but when I got married it did, I'm a geek. She manages geeks. We both very much want to have income whether or not we're working. So we started investing into realestate, we can't afford to purchase a house and live in it in Southern California.

As the old saying goes, a house is worthless until you sell it. True. At some point, you have to put more down on a house before it'll become profitable. Or you just become very patient, pay extra, be smart about rent increases, and at somepoint you've paid enough off on enough properties that you earn, say, $5,000/mo. income (10 years later I presume, on about 10 properties), accumulated about 1 property per year in diverse markets.

Plans are just guides, and you won't hardly ever achieve exactly what you planned for, sometimes less, sometimes more. I purchase for results, thus I purchase such properties The best advice is this: find an area you want to purchase, work with an agent that has "pocket" or "exclusive" listings. This means no one else knows about them. They are, in my experience, very high quality purchases and usually sold by sick or elderly people that very much loved their homes. This translates into tenants that will love it also. If you find a good tenant, don't raise rent if they renew. A good tenant is more valuable than 10 rent increases. A good tenant will take care of the house for you, thus saving money from repairs.

I don't believe a CS degree is necessary for the type of work I do. Its just C#/ASP.NET/SQL. I love it. Most people would call it boring, but this company is so dynmaic. We write everything from scratch (such as fax server, web based printqueues, and so on).

But I want to be an architect. I love designing and creating infrastructure and making hard tasks to be really easy tasks. I feel getting a degree in business is the better way to go. Besides that (as I write this from my work co

Re:wish I had mod points

[Optic7]

Thanks for the reply Leabre!

Re:wish I had mod points

[leabre]

I don't know whether you'll read this by now... but...

One thing I left out of my ramblings is, that, I don't have children at the moment. I will soon. Teaching them how to be financially responsible, I think, is critical to their ultimate success in life. I have coworkers that taught their children early about credit. They would pay their children a certain allowance and if the child wanted to overextend themselves, the parent would allow it to an extent, but would collection payments from future allowance plus interest. It wasn't egregious, as it was meant to reflect real life as much as possible. But the children hated it greatly. With time, they hated credit greatly. Now, those children themsevles have children, moderate incomes, and are completely fruegel. They know how to manage money and make it grow better than anyone I've ever heard that isn't financially trained (formally).

I think I'll train my children the same way, allow them to also put money away that I can contribute to, in order to teach them the value of making it grow (and patience).

I read a post from a Slashdotter that hit home, about a week or two ago. He said that his daughter wanted a bike and asked for it but he said "save up your money and then you can purchase it". So she did, she saved up for 6 weeks all her allowance money and finally came to daddy and said here, I saved up for 6 weeks and then dropped $15 on his lap. "Can we go get the bike now?". Well, the bike was $100 (or so). In the end, he paid the difference because it would be impracticle for her to keep saving. I think he was making the point about inflation and how, at some point, you just don't have enough money to barely survive, but the story itself has a merit in other contexts. I'd say the daughter learned the value of saving.

In much the same way, I have a cousine that loves horses. She saved her entire life savings (8 years worth) to come up with $6,000 to buy a horse. She was 15 last year when her parents agreed to pay the other $6,000. Now, she has her horse, knows how to groom it and everything (something she's been doing for the last 8 years of her life).

How you learn financial responsibility varies from person to person, but with children, it is important to both teach them a lesson, and not make them hate life at the same time, because in the end, the will learn "something" from it, just a matter of what they'll learn.

I didn't have the benefit of being taught anything. But I learned the hard way as an adult. Moreso now that ever, people need to start saving for their later years at an early age (at least by the time they turn 21). Real estate is truly the only way to go (unless you win the lottery or start a successful business). Land, is becoming scarce and expensive everywhere. Better get it now while there is still a chance. People will always pay for a place to live, even in a depressions. Just be the person being paid, not the one paying.

Thanks,
Leabre.

I remember EA camp being the coolest place to be..

[Anonymous Coward]

with a competitive acceptance into their summer program...

ahhh, the old days.

It's much simpler than that.

[Trojan35]

They work with the studios. If they call the people who give them access to games before release, they upset their "vendors". Pissing off your vendors is bad business.

Don't work games

[Anonymous Coward]

I started right out of school for a software company (non games) at 60k. 18 months later I'm making 80k with 50hr work weeks being about average. I did get a master's degree but it was from a state college (University of Texas) took only 18 months more than my bachelor's and cost about 12k total.

I live in a fairly cheap area (Austin) drive a really nice car and party in one of the best places in the world.

Moral of the story: get your master's, don't work in games, live in Austin. As a postscript the Austin software market is insanely hot right now; we can't find J2EE/database developers in the area and are letting people work remote from anywhere. We're also paying 100k+ for experienced developers.

Re:Starting at $60K? - Try $40k

[Anonymous Coward]

My coworker makes 60k straight out of school. His title is Jr. Programmer. We're in OC, and it get pricey living here.

I don't have a shipped title, and I'm getting 50K as Jr, Env Artist.

So those of you that are good at work you do and getting less than 48k in CA, you're worth much more.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[hal2814]

Sorry if I'm off. The only figures I have on what mortgage payments run in California are off my work in on-line Mortgage Brokerage firms. The average payment we ended up with from our California customers was about $2500 (that's couning all of our mortgage types: 30 yr, 15 yr, 3/1,5/1,7/1 ARMs, and interest only in all of the above).

That's the only figure I have. You say you live on $1200 in expeses? That's pretty good no matter where you live. You're saving for a house so I assume you're renting. Do you rent a house or apartment? DO you have roomates? Do you have a vehicle? I really don't have an agenda behind these questions or anything. Just curious.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[pete19]

But at least Dundonians aren't a bunch of sheepshaggers. :)

Damn, thought I might get away without that one! (I was actually born in Inverness, but depending on who you believe the bestiality gets worse the further North you go! That's why I don't trust the "Islanders" :) )

If you're an engineer, Aberdeen is pretty great. Being the oil capital of Britain and all! Not so much for software development though...

I quite like Aberdeen, but I don't really want be here for long after I graduate. Looking for a work placement for next year, hopefully I'll manage to find somewhere away from here!

Loving Hell Week...

[7Prime]

There are a couple of other considerations to take into account, mainly is, what do you enjoy doing with your time? I've spent a significant part of my life making digital audio and graphics FOR FUN (well, and for radio and theatre), so hell, I might as well get paid while I'm doing it. And now I am. I landed a private contract a few months back doing sound design for a fairly small, but published console game manufacturer doing sound design and bits of voice acting. I'm fresh out of college with a music degree with a specialization in electroacoustic music composition. My intention is to eventually move into doing scoring (for any kind of media), but I realize I need to get my foot in the door first. I'm not getting paid big bucks to do this, and I'm having to work like a dog at it, a few weeks ago I had to put out 50+ sound effects in over 24 hours, and yes, I was working MOST of that time. But I enjoyed every minute of it, as I always have. And I sorta wish they would give me another huge load like that every week.

Why does America tend to promote the life of working at some dull desk job making big bucks and enjoying life only when you're with you're family? Personally, I come from a family of self-imployed artists. My father's a freelance photographer, my mother's a private consultant. Sure, we just get by, but they love their work and find it rewarding enough to choose this life. It seems more and more to me like most people believe that you're not supposed to like your work, if you do, then you're just playing around and not really working, like if you're enjoying your work then you're family must not be good enough for you. Bullshit, I think people should try to find things that they can get enjoyment out of, after all, they're more likely to do better work, therefor, it's better for everyone.

Second thing is that some people don't mind working 70+ hours a week. I'm the kind of guy who, when I used to do stage managing for theatre, loved the rush of "hell week", it gave me structure, which I tend to lack, and a feeling of purpose. At the same time, I was working 80h+ a week. This is more important to me than making a buttload of money. As long as you can support yourself (and at this point in my life, I don't need to support anyone else), who cares? Sure, I might not be able to buy a lot of luxury items, but then again, my day to day life is more enjoyable, so I really don't need as much. Obviously, if you can't support yourself, that's a problem, but Americans tend to believe that there's more to ecconomic life than supporting yourself and whoever else you're supporting, but also supporting all your stupid habits and luxury needs too... screw that, I'm going to spend a large percentage of my life working, I might as well enjoy it.

--Eric

Re:Starting at $60K?

[xtieburn]

http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm

Haha glad to see thats working out for you.

$11K a year is MINIMUM WAGE

[Anonymous Coward]

Do the math.

If you're making $11K a year, it means you have absolutely no qualifications other than breathing and taking up space.

To the suggestion that I go to 6 years of college and have 20 years of experience and say "oh goody, minimum wage", I'd say that you are just.... I don't know a word for people like you.

Re:$11K a year is MINIMUM WAGE

[jferris]

A student making minimum wage? Oh, my - the hell you say! God forbid they pay someone with little to no real life experience this "minimum wage". Oy.

The point is, that a person with a degree getting an entry level job will make more than minimum wage (considerably more) at a job in their field of study. As experience grows, so does the amount of income.

If you can't get a job in your field that is on par with what others are making than you either chose the wrong profession or genuinely suck at what you do. If that isn't enough of an indicator to adapt to your environment and find a job that you have skills and can gain experience in, then it is on you.

I work at a Major Game Company-Rent a son.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Thanks,
Leabre"

You're not looking to adopt, are you?

you people must stink...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be a fresh grad in december, and I'm starting at 60k for 40 hours/week, in a average/low cost of living area.

Re:Starting at $60K?

[Doppler00]

I rent, about $850/month. No roommates. Have an OLD vehicle (1984 Honda), but I live so close to work I ride a bike most of the time. I'm also very frugal, I rarely buy things I don't absolutely need.

Yeah, some people are paying $2,500 for morgages, but my bet that's from a two income household making 80k - 100k+ a year.

Re:Before our friends across the pond get ticked..

[ucblockhead]

Yup. In the Bay Area, the average house goes for $550k. You're looking at a $2500/month mortgage payment. That'll eat half your take home right there.

Which Cities? 60k Aint shit in some cities

[joemontoya]

$60,000 doesn't get you much more than a cardboard box on the street in some places. In other areas it's enough to get a 5,000 sq foot house and a nice car.

I assume that IGN is talking about jobs in the silicon valley area. 60,000k isn't much there. I was offered half again as much to take a job in Cali 8 years ago fresh out of school - I declined and am still employeed living in a house that would cost $3M on the west coast. Of course, the weather isn't as nice...

But is it worth it?

[hawkida]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/

Re:Before our friends across the pond get ticked..

[ichin4]

Yeah, that's what I thought when I was in college and living on $11k a year. Now I make $95k a year and I agree with the parent post.

See the photo of Peter Molyneux.

[Anonymous Coward]

(on pg.2)
I'm certain that picture was taken while he was reading the article and then he saw the salary figures...