Sony Repents Over CD Debacle

schnikies79 writes "Sony BMG is rethinking its anti-piracy policy following weeks of criticism over the copy protection used on CDs. The head of Sony BMG's global digital business, Thomas Hesse, told the BBC that the company was 're-evaluating' its current methods. This follows widespread condemnation of the way anti-piracy software on some Sony CDs installs itself on computers. The admission came as Sony faced more censure over the security failings of one of its copy protection programs."

Comments

Not too hard

[bnet41]

This isn't difficult to figure out, and I am not sure why the music companies are having trouble with this.
DRM can't work on CD's that need to play in a normal CD player. Basically any attempts to install the DRM software can be thrawted, so basically they hope they can fool you into installing something. Well, thats ok I guess, but then the software needs to do all sorts of wacky things to make sure nothing can override it in Windows. All can be defeated by a Linux machine, or a Mac as the software doesn't work on those, and also we all know about the shift-key for auto-run.
I am waiting for the industry to force us all to buy new cd players so they can create some super secure format.

Re:Not too hard

[ZiakII]

Its not hard to figure out if I can hear the music any DRM format can be easily broken...

Re:Not too hard

[peragrin]

Um you have heard of HD-DVD and Blue Ray right?

they are working on that as you speak. It just won't be ready for mass market for another decade.

Re:Not too hard

[dgatwood]

As long as there is at least one audio CD player still in active use, the data format will have to be compatible with that of an audio CD or customers will return them in record numbers as being defective. So no, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are irrelevant. GP is both correct and irrefutable.

Re:Not too hard

[jonfelder]

I guess all those round CD things are getting returned because they don't work in cassette players.

All they have to do is provide some sort of incentive for switching to the new format, and before long there will be more people using the new over the old.

Re:Not too hard

[phoenixdna]

Whats this about the shift key and autorun?

Re:Not too hard

[mooingyak]

CDs were able to do things that cassettes weren't. Maybe there will be things that a new format might allow that isn't possible on a CD now, but I can't think of any overly compelling ones (and yes, I had been able to think of the most obvious advantages of CDs before they came out).

Re:Not too hard

[happyemoticon]

I am waiting for the industry to force us all to buy new cd players so they can create some super secure format.

And as long as it has a component audio out, I can rip it.

They have all sorts of plans, the least of which would make even the most level-headed person strap tinfoil onto their head and genitals. However, they've sold us so many damn gadgets that they just can't do it. What they really want is for every single device to have DRM hardcoded in it, so it can pick up watermarks in copyrighted content and blink them out. For example, your camcorder would not work when pointed at the television, or would put a censor box over it.

Of course, it's not going to work any time soon. Even some middle-aged people I know, who are barely computer literate, own digital cameras, digital camcorders, dvd burners, and HDTVs. You tell these people they're going to have to replace all of their I/O devices, and possibly their amplifier, speakers, and cables, and they'll ask, "Oh, is it better," and of course the bottom line will be "No, it's far more sluggish because of all of the decrypting that it needs to do," despite what the sales/marketing slimeballs say, they'll say, "Fuck you, I don't want to spend 20 grand replacing all of my equipment," more than likely. Also, it'll require total industry collusion and a complete exclusion of any pre-East Fork devices.

What strikes me as the most profound absurdity, though, is that the world has fundamentally changed, and they need to create an artificial environment in which their outmoded business model can still function, rather than changing with the times. It's like adding more and more life-support systems to a person who's braindead and rapidly dying - no matter what you do, you can't cheat the inevitable.

Re:Not too hard

[pyrrhonist]

All they have to do is provide some sort of incentive for switching to the new format, and before long there will be more people using the new over the old.

The odd part is that we've already had two high quality audio formats for years now: DVD-Audio and SACD. Neither of those formats are selling very well.

Re:Not too hard

[Tackhead]

> This isn't difficult to figure out, and I am not sure why the music companies are having trouble with this.
>
> DRM can't work on CD's that need to play in a normal CD player.

Because that's not the answer the consultants and salesweasels are giving the C-level execs (because the consultants want the contracts to implement the production processes, and the salesweasels want the commissions from the consultants), and nobody in-house dares tell the C-level folks that the Emperor Has No Clothes.

Re:Not too hard

[ceoyoyo]

No no, we'll all replace our music collections with Blu-Ray discs in glorious remastered 1000 kHz digital audio (you even get the same 70 minutes per disk you used to!), for the true audiophile.

Re:Not too hard

[Anonymous Coward]

The odd part is that we've already had two high quality audio formats for years now: DVD-Audio and SACD. Neither of those formats are selling very well.

You know why this is? People are now demanding different things.

• Cassettes -> CDs = Better quality sound and slightly easier to use.
• CDs -> SACD/DVD-A = Better quality sound (again).

The thing is, most people are happy with the sound of CDs, and even 128kbps mp3s. What people now want is flexibility / portability. They want to listen to them on the hifi in the lounge, the computer in the basement, in the car and on their mp3 player. The people are pushing in one direction and the labels/RIAA are pushing in the other.

Re:Not too hard

[ENOENT]

It's easier than that. They'll just ban Linux.

Re:Not too hard

[HTH NE1]

CDs were able to do things that cassettes weren't.

You see? The seeds of obsolescence are already taking root. You're already referring to CDs in the past tense.

Re:Not too hard

[ajwitte]

No, he's referring to the time when cassette tapes were popular and CDs weren't (yet).

Re:Not too hard

[Tackhead]

> > All they have to do is provide some sort of incentive for switching to the new format, and before long there will be more people using the new over the old.
>
> The odd part is that we've already had two high quality audio formats for years now: DVD-Audio and SACD. Neither of those formats are selling very well.

Because everything is "good enough" these days.

I'm no audiophile, but on decent headphones, I can't tell LAME-encoded MP3 at 320kbps from CDs. Most of the time, I have difficulty telling LAME-encoded MP3 at 192kbps from the CD sources.

I've had this conversation with about dozen friends and cow orkers over the years, and found that about half of this admittedly-limited group can't hear the difference between Xing-encoded 128kbps (which to my ears, is unlistenably compression-artifacted) from CD, and that there are some who can't even hear the difference on headphones, never mind the crap desktop PC speakers most of these people are using.

Expecting people like me to pay a premium for the improvements in the audio fidelity offered by DVD-A/SACD versus CDDA is too much. Audio's reached the stage of "good enough" that only a small amount of the market is willing to pay a premium for anything better.

The initially-small market means that it's unlikely that economies of scale will develop, ensuring that the price gap between "better than CDDA" and "CDDA" will forever remain too wide to entice folks like me (never mind my 128kbps Xing friends) into it.

Re:Not too hard

[lgw]

Broken, perhaps, but not easily. It's posible to watermark music in a way that crosses to analog and back. A DRM-compliant hard drive could recognize such a watermark and refuse to write the file. This is the world the RIAA wants.

Setting aside the fact that while such watermarking schemes aren't *easy* to break, they're *possible* to break by a skilled cryptographer, the real flaw in this vision is that the drive manufacturers won't play along. There's no money in it for them.

If we adopt a trusted computing scheme that really works to defeat rootkits (which the drive manufacturers *do* have a reason to go along with), no doubt the DRM crowd will try to take advantage of it. The thing is: such a scheme will only sell if it gives the owner of the computer the master keys. If you can't run a program to detect and defeat DRM, you can't run a program to detect and defeat rootkits. Sony demonstrated this pretty clearly.

So it's not just watermarking, it's any DRM scheme on a general-purpose computer. No one is going to pay extra for such a thing, and that means no drive manufacturer is going to try to force the technology needed for *real* DRM on the public: it's a money losing prospect.

Re:Not too hard

[Scoth]

There's a problem though. I agree with your reasoning inasmuch as replacing equipment without any benefit except the DRM. If you're leaving the functionality the same but adding a layer of "protection", which requires large expenditure, then it's not going to fly. However, when a new generation of foo comes out, and everything in that new generation has DRM, then there's a problem. Let's say Blu-Ray or HD-DVD or whatever comes next has legislatively-enforced DRM in every component. Now to avoid it not only do you miss out on DRM, but the entire new generation of equipment. Eventually more and more content will be phased over to the new technology and you're faced with the situation of upgrading, or being left behind. Now I know some people still trucking along with Windows 98 on a P2 because it's all they need and they refuse to use XP, but how many people have you met that still use 8-track and/or cassette exclusively because they hate CDs? Even with VHS tapes it's getting harder to find new releases available on them.

That's pretty much what it comes down to. Not only do we have to prevent current-gen from getting replaced with DRM'd crap (possible to prevent, even easy), but we have to watch out for next gen too. And that's where we have to look to.

Re:Not too hard

[Orrin Bloquy]

Basically any attempts to install the DRM software can be thrawted B-b-b-but I have a Thrawte certificate and everything! No fair!

Re:Not too hard

[Anonymous Coward]

It's posible to watermark music in a way that crosses to analog and back.

Um, not. Do you have a source for this?

I dimly recall one or two stories (I think on /., but maybe I saw them somewhere else) a few years ago about some research team claiming they had come up with a watermarking scheme that could persist even after being played from loudspeakers and into an arbitrary room, with microphones (re-)recording somewhere in that room.

Thing is, AFAIK this went nowhere, because it's bunk. If you can't hear it, any decent psychoacoustic-based codec (MP3, AAC, etc.) will throw it out during compression. And if you can hear it, then it's bothersome from the get-go and so would be totally unacceptable as a watermarking method for music in the broad consumer market.

One way to highlight the key idea that the music industry bozos-in-charge don't understand is to point at the near-ubiquity of MP3 (at 128kbps, natch). The popularity of that format -- at that bitrate -- conclusively demonstrates that "near-CD quality" is good enough for the vast majority of listeners. Since the degradation you get from running a line out into a decent sound card is less than that, it follows that any audible recording can and will be ripped into unprotected digital files no matter what DRM or watermarking said bozos choose to implement.

/CF

Re:Not too hard

[dgatwood]

More like:

Cassettes -> CDs: noticeably better quality and much better ease of use.
CD -> SACD/DVD-A: theoretically better quality outside the range of human hearing, and better bit depth that gets compressed away when listening in your car anyway.

In other words, major benefit in one case, no perceptible benefit in the other. Seems perfectly straightforward....

Re:Not too hard

[geekoid]

But the trhings they do as an advantge, were't nearlty as good as the things that they lost. recordability. At the time.

See a similiar trend there? attempt to remove the technolgy that wasn't controllable, cassettes, and replace it with a technology that was.
Of course they failed, becasue market forces allowed consumers to still do what they want. In this case, make recording to share and listen elsewhere.

Re:Not too hard

[EvilMonkeySlayer]

They have all sorts of plans, the least of which would make even the most level-headed person strap tinfoil onto their head and genitals.

I don't know about you, but after hearing what tinfoil absorbs i'd rather like to have children in the future thanks. No tinfoil for my love tackle.

Re:Not too hard

[CastrTroy]

Maybe, at the time, you couldn't record a CD to another CD, but there sure was a lot of ways to record a CD to a cassette. Everybody I know had one of those direct-dub CD/Cassette players, made precisely for this purpose.

Re:Not too hard

[From A Far Away Land]

"I am waiting for the industry to force us all to buy new cd players so they can create some super secure format." In unrelated news, Blue Ray DRMable discs are under manufacture as we speak.

Re:Not too hard

[QuietLagoon]

I am waiting for the industry to force us all to buy new cd players so they can create some super secure format.

Sony tried that with SACD (no digital outputs on SACD players). The success of SACD can be measured by their inability to sell more copies this year than were sold of vinyl records.

Re:Not too hard

[cluke]

I think that was intentional.

Re:Not too hard

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

though a flame, probably not too far off. A lot of people thought the Apple/Intel cuddling was all about TPM, Apple's quest to be the center of home entertainment. I don't think Linus and Grove will be partying soon. Soon there will be media that will only work on TPM capable boxes. Linux will not be illegal, jsut less relavant.

Re:Not too hard

[GWBasic]

I've been listening to DVD-A and SACD for years. The real advantage of both formats is music in surround sound. The problem with the formats is that they aren't consumer friendly, and really only appeal to people who like music in surround, like me.

Frankly, I'm willing to pay $18 for Dark Side of the Moon on SACD where all of the sound effects zoom around the room, and $20 for a recording of Beethoven's 9th that makes me feel like I'm in a concert hall. However, most recordings do not benefit from being released in higher fidelity format.

I do anticipate that many of the streaming services will offer ultra-high fidelity sound and content in surround sound within a few years. This will be the final nail in DVD-A and SACD's coffin.

Re:Not too hard

[Ken D]

Well, yes and no,

look at DAT and MiniDisc. Both had DRM, and both went nowhere in the mass market. I guess you could add Divx to that too.

Re:Not too hard

[bhtooefr]

They do have surround sound to their advantage. IIRC, CDs can only do two channels, whereas SACD/DVD-A can do 5.1? 7.1?

Re:Not too hard

[mrchaotica]

Indeed, being able to change and compile the software yourself doesn't mean a damn thing when the hardware refuses to run any unsigned binaries!

Re:Not too hard

[pipingguy]

This is what makes me miss my old turntable and vinyl LPs.

These days it's a neverending upgrade cycle and battle, but it's "good for the economy" because it's a neverending cycle and battle.

Re:Not too hard

[loraksus]

True, but I've seen people buy $50 Monster _POWER_ CABLES for their computers.
Just because it is stupid, doesn't mean there isn't a market for it.
If you think I'm full of shit (and I completely understand, I was completely shocked when I discovered it)
Click here to see a $50 power cable

Re:Not too hard

[DonGar]

the real flaw in this vision is that the drive manufacturers won't play along. There's no money in it for them.

Um... current DVD drives include firmware that make it harder to RIP DVD content. Not impossible, but it's not just a simple "cp -a". I think this shows that licensing constraints and other legal pressures can be used to make drive manufacturers to exactly this.

Re:Not too hard

[Excelsior]

Cassettes -> CDs = Better quality sound and slightly easier to use.

Slightly easier to use? Crusing with a friend in the '80s went something like this:

"Hey, Frank, get the Def Leppard tape out of my glovebox. I know, the tape comes out and gets tangled. Stick a pencil in the hole and turn it for a bit. Okay, now the fifth song on the first side is 'Pour Some Sugar on Me', and it totally rocks. You need to fast forward. No, that's not it...forward some more. More. Now you've gone too far...rewind. Damnit Frank, who taught you how to use a tape player? Ah, that's it, now find the beginning."

"See, I told you that song rocks. Now, go in my glovebox and find Van Halen's 1984. The second song on the first side is Jump, and it totally rocks."

Re:Not too hard

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

"Maybe there will be things that a new format might allow that isn't possible on a CD now, but I can't think of any overly compelling ones"

For data: Larger storage, better resistance to scratches/damage.
For music: 6 channel audio, more audio per disk (imagine a 'top 100 songs of the 90s' disk instead of 10 cd collection)

Re:Not too hard

[ZenShadow]

Imagine the stain that will appear in the record company exec's shorts when you propose that idea. "Why give 'em 100 songs, when we can get 'em to pay $20 for every ten?"

--S

Re:Not too hard

[SilverspurG]

Not that I can afford to chuck $50 for an 8 foot power cord...

That thing rules. :)

Re:Not too hard

[lord_rob the only on]

Hmmm right. Audio CDs can only do stereo 2 channels, whereas SACD can do 7.1. That's the argument my father always says to me when I tells him SACD doesn't have a bright future compared to the traditional CD (he owns a SACD player). I don't agree with that argument. I think 5.1 or 7.1 will seduce audiophiles, the kind of people that like to sit in an armchair and listen to music. Those people will likely be seduced by the superior audio quality SACD offers. Note that the early SACD players were 2 channels stereo only (dunno about DVD-AUDIO players).

But the average Joe isn't an audiophile, he only puts the CD in a low-end hifi or in a radio-CD player or in his car and listen to the music while doing something else. So he won't even notice the superior audio quality, which needs to concentrate a lot on to be noticed IMHO. If he's listening to an SACD while working, he won't notice the [5|7].1 either.

Re:Not too hard

[Trailer Trash]

All they have to do is provide some sort of incentive for switching to the new format, and before long there will be more people using the new over the old.

There are no incentives left. CDs last virtually forever (close enough for me) and sound great. And they'll sound as good 30 years from now. I replaced a sizable LP collection with CDs in the 90's, before I became disgusted with the music industry.

There have been a couple of high-end music formats suggested in the last few years, and they've all flopped badly. Don't expect anything to change soon. People are not going to dump their CD collection for something that will sound identical on 99% of the equipment in use in homes.

Re:Not too hard

[lgw]

The DVD format didn't exist in the consumer space beforehand, however, and the primary market for DVD drives is consumer electronics, not general purpose computers. None of that is true for hard drives. Hard drvies are a very big business today, so the manfacturers would have to see some financial incentive to move into DRM-compliance. I just don't see where that would come from - consumers won't be driving it, for certain.

Re:Not too hard

[lgw]

I don't know of any technology that would survive speaker-to-microphone in an arbitrary room either, but that not really the point.

If you're willing to sacrifice quality there's a lot you can do to watermark audio. There's a lot of room between CD quality and MP3 quality to add meta-data into the mix. The watermarked audio would need to be about MP3 quality in order to make the quality unacceptable when the watermark was removed (since any watermark an be removed, it's just a matter of how much degradation you get in the process).

Of course, anything could be sorted out with the right analog filters (or just a bad recording), but that's more effort than most people would be willing to go to. If the watermark survives line-out into line-in, it's probably good enough. All the record industry needs is as much degradation as copying a CD to audio tape produces.

Re:Not too hard

[qzulla]

Mine was more like:

Ed, get the 8 track out of the glove box. What? You fast forwarded past it? Shit. Now we have to wait until it comes around again.

qz

Re:Not too hard

[tre4lien]

Not only did they fail, I don't think the CD technology would have survived if those market forces hadn't allowed consumers to continue duplicating.

I can't speak for your neck of the woods, but where I live (Central Canada) no one switched to CDs until Recordable CD drives were available for computers.

I'd hope that the same is still true - consumers won't accept a new format unless it allows thm to continue making their "Mix Tapes", and trading songs with friends like they've done since Cassettes were introduced.

As tech-aware people, I think it is our resposibility to educate our non-techy friends & family about what the IP industry is doing. If we aren't vigilant, they will con the public and steal what's left of our culture & heritage. I don't think it can be understated - they won't stop until all thought, speech, sound, sights, & senses are regulated by the monopolies and restricted to the wealthy.

Re:Not too hard

[luigi1015]

Slightly easier to use? Crusing with a friend in the '80s went something like this:
"Hey, Frank, get the Def Leppard tape out of my glovebox. I know, the tape comes out and gets tangled. Stick a pencil in the hole and turn it for a bit. Okay, now the fifth song on the first side is 'Pour Some Sugar on Me', and it totally rocks. You need to fast forward. No, that's not it...forward some more. More. Now you've gone too far...rewind. Damnit Frank, who taught you how to use a tape player? Ah, that's it, now find the beginning."

Let me guess.... Your name is Frank, and your friend made you listen to a lot of Def Leppard and Van Halen in this manner?
Damnit Frank, who taught you how to stick up for yourself?

In other news...

[Shadow Wrought]

Hitting your head against a brick wall hurts. -- Captain Obvious

Ummm...

[Chris Bradshaw]

Last I checked, technology was not covered by blood sacrifice, repentance, etc...

STRAIGHT TO HELL!

Nothing to see here. Please move along ...

[ToasterofDOOM]

Sure they did

If I'd waited this wilong...

[bobocopy]

If I'd waited this long to apologize to my wife for doing something obviously wrong, I'd be sleeping on the sidewalk.

Re:If I'd waited this wilong...

[Anonymous Coward]

If I'd waited this long to apologize to my wife for doing something obviously wrong, I'd be sleeping on the sidewalk.

Not if you had as much money as Sony.

Re:If I'd waited this wilong...

[rodgster]

I don't care if they repent or not. I haven't bought anything (intentionally) from Sony for years now and I intend to stay the path.

Re:If I'd waited this wilong...

[imess]

I don't think many /.ers would understand your situation

Re-evaluation != repentance.

[mellon]

What I'd like to see is Sony doing a cost/benefit analysis for this fiasco and realizing that they actually lost more money dealing with the aftermath of this mistake than they could possibly have lost from "piracy."

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any honest CBA's out of the music industry, so I'm not holding my breath.

Re:Re-evaluation != repentance.

[decipher_saint]

What I want to know is what protects artists from dumb-ass corporate moves? I mean don't they feel the financial hurt if their publisher throws cash away so flagrantly? Or is that factored into "losses incurred by piracy" too.

Re:Re-evaluation != repentance.

[mellon]

What I want to know is what protects artists from dumb-ass corporate moves?

Nothing at all. In fact, unless the corporation has assumed liability on behalf of the artists, the artist is theoretically liable for damage caused by the CD that installed the malware. In the publishing industry, if you are worried about being sued, you have to get your own liability insurance - the publisher isn't going to indemnify you.

This situation is a bit different because the publisher added the malware, not the artist, but it's still not out of the question for the artist to be named in the lawsuit and wind up having to spend money disputing the assertion that they might be liable.

Of course, the artist can also sue the publisher for putting the malware on their CD, and in fact it wouldn't surprise me if we start seeing lawsuits from these artists, because regardless of whether or not they are sued, the fact that the music they've published isn't getting to the fans because of this fiasco is costing them money, and possibly also fans.

Re:Re-evaluation != repentance.

[LnxAddct]

They are going to write this off as costs associated with piracy prevention and next year you'll see headlining reports claiming that piracy has cost Sony tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, of dollars more than in 2004.
Regards,
Steve

Re:Re-evaluation != repentance.

[barefootgenius]

I've been wondering whats happened to the artists. I would imagine that they have lost money from this but I have yet to see any statements or actions from them. Has anyone else heard?

in other news

[js7a]

Napoleon has been "rethinking" the wintertime invasion of Russia.

The Bush administration is "rethinking" the use of tortured confessions supporting Iraq-Al Qaida ties.

Re:in other news

[Cheapy]

Hey, for Napoleon's credit, the tactic that the Russians used was unconventional, and Napoleon probably didn't have any reason to think that would happen (if he thought it would at all!)

Re:in other news

[xs650]

Napoleon was getting paid the big bucks to think of just those kinds of things.

Re:in other news

[Cheapy]

He was supposed to know that the Russians would willingly retreat and give up land? He was supposed to know a tactic that was rarely, if ever, used before?

Re-evaluation

[Gryle]

the company was "re-evaluating" its current methods.

Translation: We're trying to figure out how not to get caught next time.

Re:Re-evaluation

[NickFortune]

Yup. I trust their "repentance" like I trust their rootkit uninstallers.

Let me be amongst the first[1] to say "yeah, yeah, yeah, like we haven't all heard that before!"

[1] The first million or so, that is. Obviously.

Re:Re-evaluation

[Kjella]

Translation: We're trying to figure out how not to get caught next time.

Translation: Next time we'll want it built into the machine, not as a trojan but as a feature. A "trusted computing" machine is pretty much like being rooted. Your system appears to work, but there's some files (protected by the rootkit) that you can't seem to read/copy/move/delete/execute as you would like to. It'll come complete with "call home" features you can't read or control, since you're basicly running executables on blind faith and if you don't it could disable several features. Yay for pre-rooted computing.

Re:Re-evaluation

[d34thm0nk3y]

The day Windows is not the pirate's OS of choice will be the day Linux is officially ready for the desktop. How do you think Windows got it's market share in the first place?

Re:Re-evaluation

[smittyoneeach]

How is a "call home" feature going to work? If you have any kind of network that The Combine and its Fog Machine do not control, then there is the possibility of intercepting the packets and ushering them elsewhere.
As far as corporate and government markets go, the whole thing is a wash; the cartel-like behavior of The Evil Ones fits nicely in with Digital Restrictions Management and Trustworthless Computing.
Best the technorati can hope for is to draw attention to the Mephistophelean nature of the evil, and try to keep the consumer sector reasonably free.
And who cares about for this Digitally Restricted content, anyway? Slapping a rootkit and a high price on a pile of crap doesn't change the intrinsic nature thereof...

Re:Re-evaluation

[Kjella]

How is a "call home" feature going to work? If you have any kind of network that The Combine and its Fog Machine do not control, then there is the possibility of intercepting the packets and ushering them elsewhere.

How it'll work? "Call home, or we'll stop playing any of your protected media files!"

Hack it? Change one bit, and the signature will fail and your machine is rendered useless.

Send them elsewhere? Using TCPA to build a secure connection, you have no chance at imitating Sony's server.

Forge a connection to the server? With remote attestation you can't fake being a client.

Who cares about protected content.... well, if you don't think movies like any mainstream movies (LotR?), music (Sony signs on a ton of artists), games (Xbox,PlayStation,GameCube,SafeDisc on PC), applications (WinXP & many large app suites) and all you want to live on is Linux, nethack and Star Wreck, please do. Don't find it so strange if 99.9% want it different though.

Re:Re-evaluation

[smittyoneeach]

Right, but if the medium is meant to play on un-networked hardware, how can any of these manifestations of evil be made untweakable?

Don't get your hopes up

[PeteDotNu]

I can't really see Sony announcing tomorrow "we've decided that trusting our customers is the best bet, so we're dropping our DRM project. Plus, we don't have to piss any more money up the wall developing buggy and weak DRM systems!"

No, they'll rethink, and come up with something even more grotesque. It will probably involve a mandatory tax on CD-ROM drives, or something so hideous that we haven't even thought of it in our worst sci-fi novels.

Re:Don't get your hopes up

[realmolo]

Are you INSANE?!

CDs are already vastly overpriced. And you'd be willing to pay more to have what YOU ALREADY SHOULD HAVE?

You're the RIAA's wet-dream, my friend.

$sys$

[The Vaxorcist]

Yeah, their just gearing up for...

$sys$copy protection

But according to the RIAA...

[HellHammer]

Sony-BMG did nothing wrong.


http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/21/12 32207&from=rss

Re:But according to the RIAA...

[MooUK]

And the RIAA saying this surprises you?

You really have been under a rock for years. Possibly since before the RIAA formed.

Sony's Next Step Should be . . .

[Seumas]

Sony's next step should be this.

Allow me to translate Sony's response.

[gasmonso]

Dear consumer, we regret that we were caught releasing this abomination to you. We really don't believe in fair-use and will do everything in our power to prevent law abiding consumers the right copy their songs freely. We will invest more time and money developing a more secretive method of copy protection. Thank you for your understanding and we take comfort knowing that you'll forget about this in a few months. Have a nice day.

gasmonso http://religiousfreaks.com/

Re:Allow me to translate Sony's response.

[E-Rock]

I don't think most people knew about it in the first place. A friend of mine manages a virgin music store and when I asked about it he hadn't had anyone try to exchange a DRM cd for a new one.

All the other people I've talked to about it had blank faces.

Re:Allow me to translate Sony's response.

[Lord_Dweomer]

Bingo. The only way a company like Sony (especially Sony since they are more into DRM and lock-in than all of the other labels combined) will stop this nonsense is with MASSIVE fines that way more than any minor setback from bad PR and a friggin court order preventing them from releasing DRMed discs.

Re:Allow me to translate Sony's response.

[mellon]

Wow, people actually still buy music in stores?

Re:Allow me to translate Sony's response.

[cmarkn]

We will invest more time and money developing a more secretive method of copy protection.

Despite the fact that it is impossible to make copy protection secret. When someone tries to convert a file from a CD he bought to a file for his iPod and the conversion fails, he knows he has been denied his right to fair use of his property. It doesn't matter how sneaky the fair-use theft program is, it always reveals itself by its function.

The only approach to take is for consumers to avoid all products with the Sony name on them, and the artists to sue Sony for their loss of income caused by the company's greed.

Re:Allow me to translate Sony's response.

[imjustabigcat]

Succinct summary!

I really am tired of being seen as a source of revenue ("consumer") that can be lied to, tricked and otherwise legally fleeced, rather than a willing participant in a transaction where I get something of value for my money. Money, I might add, that represents something I can't ever get back -- time.

What's worse is companies that sell my behavior patterns to the highest bidder without at least being courteous enough to tell me they're doing so. Rootkits that report what CD I'm listening to? And don't give me the crap about not having "personally identifying characterstics"; that's baloney spewed in press releases so the CEO can cover his butt when the lawsuits start. And we don't know any companies that lie, misrepresent or withhold information (Merck) either, right?

My payment behavior, my demographics, my creative output and my personal interests are just that -- mine, thank you very much. My skin color, gender, religious affiliation, reading list, ethnic background, musical tastes, employment status, income history, bathroom count (apparently of importance to the U.S. Census Bureau) and geographic location are none of your business. If you want to use that information, you can bloody well ask my permission -- and pay me a fee for it too. "Fair use" should be a two-way street.

Of course, I'm hoping that somewhere there are corporate executives that actually have morals, ethics and a spine in one package. I'm reasonably certain that I'm asking too much of most politicians.

No, I'm not cynical or upset at all...I just sound that way.

Too little too late

[merc]

I'll never buy another damned thing under the "Sony" brand as long as I live unless it's by accident.

The next version?

[astronouth7303]

The next version tells you it has installed itself as a rootkit and opened a few security holes.

The version after just doesn't let you play it on a PC.

Re:The next version?

[gbobeck]

The version after just doesn't let you play it on a PC.

The version after that uses the laser in your CD-ROM drive to destroy the disk, most of your computer hardware, and if you have a nice window in your computer case... it attempts to attack you too.

Sony doesn't care. Probably never has.

[kcbrown]

They may be "reevaluating" their methods, but you can bet what that really means is that they're investigating less visible means of achieving the same thing: as much control as possible over how you use the music you purchase.

Sony certainly isn't "repenting" over this. Not at all. They don't care, and haven't for a long time.

I expect to see more of the same shit from Sony. They'll claim they're "changing" but in reality nothing will change.

Re:If I'd waited this long...

[bobocopy]

If I had as much money as Sony, my wife would have all the more reason for tossing me out of the house and finding a decent attorney.

Consumer Trust

[N8F8]

I'm sure even Sony's dimwit management has to realize that they are losing sales due to slipping consumer trust. As media devices become more intelligent, the opportunities for manufacturers to secretely audit and control your use of media will increase. Trust wil become more and more important. Two years ago Sony was on my golden halo list of clever manufacturers. First I bought a Vaio computer and ran into severe issues upgrading the OS. Then I noticed that they keep pushing for proprietary formats for encoding and storage. Now this. Today a guy brought in a nifty looking PSP and all I could think of was what DRM easter eggs are waiting for the unwitting consumer.

Yes of course...

[Chaffar]

"Even if the issue is only a slight one, at Sony BMG we are very clear that any software security issues are taken with the utmost seriousness," said Mr Hesse.

Slight issue? Then that must be why we got to bash Sony twice/day everyday for the past month or so. That is why if you type "Sony Rootkit" you get 1,630,000 hits. We're just all overreacting to your illegal attempt to hijack our computers against our will with an auto-installing rootkit.

BTW does anyone know what the patch does to the rootkit ? Does it remove it? Or does it "patch" the gaping hole it represents but keep all the other effects it had i.e the 3-copy limiter?

Re:Yes of course...

[pla]

Slight issue? Then that must be why we got to bash Sony twice/day everyday for the past month or so. That is why if you type "Sony Rootkit" you get 1,630,000 hits.

Unfortunately, 1.6 million geeks amounts to roughly one half of one percent of the US population. Assuming this affects Western Europe as well (and Google's count includes sites from there), we have a really sad representation overall. Certainly not enough to hurt Sony's bottom line by a boycott, by ourselves.


On the bright side, geeks tend to run things like, say, IT departments that people go to when they have computer questions. And when a trusted geek mentions something about Sony CDs having DRM that, while not outright malicious, potentially leaves your computer wide open to attacks by others... Well, most people won't remember much beyond "Sony breaks my computer", just in time for their holiday shopping spree.

Sigh. If only it didn't hurt so much to consider that, as a consequence of people skipping Sony this holiday season (sorry, "Solstice" - Wouldn't want to take the mythology out of our annual materialism-fest) because, Microsoft may come to dominate the console videogame market.

Ah well, you win some, you lose some.

Yes and...

[Nom du Keyboard]

Yes, and in other news Bill Gates regrets his billions of dollars. More at eleven.

Apology NOT Accepted

[BigCheese]

Sony you've lost my trust. There is nothing you can say that will get it back. Actions, not words can win me back and that will take a long, long time.

unfair justice

[seabreezemm]

I would love to know where the patriot act is now when it's a big company committing acts like this. Had this been an individual someone would be in jail!

Christ!

[Mr. Underbridge]

I am waiting for the industry to force us all to buy new cd players so they can create some super secure format.

Shaddup dumbass! The RIAA reads /.!

Re:If I'd waited this long...

[bobocopy]

I'll admit that the analogy is a stretch. Not being a multinational corporation worth many many millions of dollars, I was having a hard time finding a similarity. Coporations should be trustworthy to their customers; husbands should be trustworthy to their wives...? It's a stretch, I know.

Ed Felton got it correct.

[Nom du Keyboard]

CD Copy Protection: The Road to Spyware

So if you're designing a CD DRM system based on active protection, you face two main technical problems:

1. You have to get your software installed, even though the user doesn't want it.

2. Once your software is installed, you have to keep it from being uninstalled, even though the user wants it gone.

These are the same two technical problems that spyware designers face.

You can read the rest of his fascinating article here.

Words are cheap.

[Spy der Mann]

We want UNINSTALL. And I don't mean an "inhabilitating patch", i mean a full uninstall of the rootkit.

New Format Players

[nurb432]

Dont laugh, that time will come. Eventually.

Re:New Format Players

[finkployd]

And what advantage will the offer the consumer over a CD player? Believe me, it is hard enough to get people to change media when the new media is superior, it will be impossible when it is a downgrade (as any DRMed CD is likely to be)

Finkployd

Re:New Format Players

[nurb432]

When that is all that is offered, consumers will slowly migrate to it.

Eventually most conusmers will have the new player, due to the old ones dying.

Then, the DRM is turned on with no way to go back. ( for the average guy )

Re:New Format Players

[finkployd]

When has this ever happened? (something customers not wanting being forced upon then, then removing a popular alternative)

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just that what is just more likely is that the vast majority of people will simply download and burn rather than buy the newer, (most likely) more expensive, less useful, DRMed media. Everyone has CD burners, everyone has CD players in their car, and everyone has cd players at home (by "everyone", I mean everyone in the music buying demographic).

For something to replace that, it must offer a clear and desirable advantage over CDs, the way CDs did over tape and the way DVDs did over VHS. Since the sound quality isn't going to get any better, what value ad could you possibly provide to get people to switch?

Finkployd

The Cost

[ikaru5]

One wonders what the financial cost of these blunders (legal fees, cost of a recall, cost of developing a patch, etc) is compared to the theoretical cost of "lost sales" they thwarted due to piracy. In other words, it may have actually been cheaper to let a few people copy the CD for free instead of fussing with all this DRM nonsense.

The Internet responds to Sony...

[hobotron]

http://diemotherfuckers.ytmnsfw.com/ (not that safe for work)
.

In other news...

[The Vaxorcist]

180solutions has repented about distributing spyware...

Drop the division...

[OneFix at Work]

Actually if Sony was smart, they would spin off the whole music right now...that way they could distance the rest of the company from BMG's actions... If they were to do this soon, they could claim that the parent company was not responsible.

Repent?

[Dolly_Llama]

Being sorry and being sorry you got caught are two different things entirely.

Too Late!

[BCW2]

I will never buy another Sony product! Not just because of the DRM debacle but also due to shoddy workmanship in most products. Sony can come up with some of the best ideas there are, but they should license them out to be built by someone that can produce quality goods.

Why do I say this?
Stereo - exchanged 3 times before the warranty ran out, CD player broke again a month later.
PS2 - Son in law has had to send his back 6 times now for the infamous 1st Gen laser problem, sometimes it works, sometimes not.
Wega 32 in TV - Friend had it in the shop more than his house for two years, several different problems.

Add the DRM to this and there is no reson to give them another chance.

Sony repentant? My furry little but.

[iSeal]

Sony isn't repentant, you kidding?

For Sony to truly regret their acts, they would have to drop DRM alltogether. Who is to blame here: the people who coded this restrictions for our computer (XPC) or the company that wanted those restrictions to begin with? But like the kid who'se afraid of being punished after having done something wrong; Sony is trying to suckup after having all this bad press. They won't drop DRM though. Nothing is going to change, except Sony maybe choosing a different DRM-maker. And because of that, I know they're not repentant.

What was so bad about the days where there were no protections? I mean, hell, even before CD-Rs came along tapes existed then! Yet I don't see the music industry crashing because "too many people shared tapes." And I'm still talking 1:1 burning here, not P2P. Cuz we all know that whether initially DRMed or not, music will still make its way *unmolested* to P2P.

When has DRM on commercial CDs ever worked? Really? When?

No need for a cost/benefit analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

Neil Diamond's new CD opened in the top ten, then sank down into the mid 50's the following week when the news about Sony DRM hit. Same goes for new CD's by their other major stars. The artists this affects are already mighty pissed.

Do you think that Sony is tripping all over themselves apologizing for the DRM fiscao hand-in-hand with the Free Software Foundation because they give a shit about your computers? Read the numbers in Billboard - Sony sure as hell does.

Re:No need for a cost/benefit analysis

[OzPhIsH]

"Neil Diamond's new CD opened in the top ten, then sank down into the mid 50's the following week when the news about Sony DRM hit. Same goes for new CD's by their other major stars. The artists this affects are already mighty pissed."

Now I'm not saying that the news about Sony DRM didn't affect the slides of these albums down the billboard charts, but certainly other factors that need to be considered. Really, was Neil Diamond's latest really destined for anything more than 1 week in the top 10? Probably not. I would imagine most all the Neil Diamond fans bought the album in the first week. The slide down the charts is probably the result of the rest of us not giving a fuck about Neil Diamond, or about any other of those artists. I know I don't.

Re:No need for a cost/benefit analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you missed the point. Whether or not YOU like Neil Diamond (I don't), Sony was counting on these sales and those of other major artists for the holiday season. These sales have collectively dropped out of sight because of bad publicity, which is bad news for Sony at the time of year where they make their most in sales. It's not just about Neil Diamond - other Sony artists' sales are way off as well.

Re:No need for a cost/benefit analysis

[ChrisKnight]

"Neil Diamond's new CD opened in the top ten, then sank down into the mid 50's the following week when the news about Sony DRM hit. Same goes for new CD's by their other major stars."

You don't think this had anything to do with Sony pulling these CDs off the shelves when the shitstorm hitr the media? I'm pretty sure having the albums unavailable in stores had a lot to do with the sales numbers dropping.

-Chris

Re:No need for a cost/benefit analysis

[OzPhIsH]

No you've missed MY point. I'm saying that those sales probably didn't drop out of sight because of bad publicity surrounding Sony's DRM. I'm thinking they dropped out of sight because of the natural effects of demand. Sure the whole DRM thing didn't help Sony at all, but I'm still skeptical as to whether or not Joe Consumer really actually reacted to the fiasco in a way that changed CD buying habits. I'm still thinking that Joe Consumer still just doesn't care about it. People are going to buy the new Neil Diamond CD if they want to hear new Neil Diamond songs regardless of the Sony DRM. Most people won't even realize what label is releasing the album anyway.

My contention is that those sales dropped out of sight because that's the natural progression of new releases. Albums generally do their biggest sales on new release. From there where else can it really go but down, especialy if you debuted in the top ten? You've got to make room for next week's releases right? The only way you're really going to be able to maintain or even increase weekly sales is if you actually WRITE A GOOD ALBUM. Occasinally we see this every year as a good album debuts low on the charts, and with good press, and more importantly, good word of mouth, it rises to the top. But it must end somewhere, and like all albums, sales will eventually fall. You can't blame this all on the bad press on Sony's DRM. You can blame it on bad music being produced and released on Sony's label.

On a side note, I'd really love to see a list of these "major Sony artists" that had releases around this time, and data concerning their cd sales and their iTunes downloads. I'm willing to bet that there were similar sales patterns.

Re:No need for a cost/benefit analysis

[Ahaldra]

Well they only announced that they were recalling the cd's that week, it seems they were still dragging their feet at the end of november. I would doubt that sparse availability of mr. diamonds cd's has to do with declining sales the immediate following week.
In the longer term (aka throughout December) however, your prediction might be true, since sony is apparently unable to produce a batch of new standard-compliant cd's on such short notice.

Re:No need for a cost/benefit analysis

[HugePedlar]

Well that's kind of the point, isn't it. Regardless of whether sales dropped because people chose not to buy the CDs or because Sony removed them, the "root" (haha) cause was the DRM in the first place.

When will they learn?

[mustafap]

While their CD must play in 'ordinary' CD players, this technology is a waste of time anyway. It's not like they can start region locking them.

The guys should give up on it and focus on screwing us out of any rights on the next technology. Which they were probably already doing anyway...

The untold story.

[killjoe]

The biggest untold story in this saga is the refusal of bit anti-virus software makers to detect and report this software as a virus/trojan.

This means in the future content providors will be able to install anything they want without interference from the anti virus makers.

Sony is sorry alright...

[SengirV]

...Sorry they got caught. That is it. Why do you think they have been trying to push their own crappy MP3 type format? To get you to buy all new hardware that WILL work with their form of DRM. The best thing we can do as a customer base is to avoid all Sony CDs like the plague. It's the only thing they can possibly understand.

From TFA...

[Cl1mh4224rd]

"The key point to remember is that copyright infringement is a huge issue for the recording industry as a whole and that's where we came from originally," [Thomas Hesse] said.

Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is still wrong. It shouldn't have taken them this long to figure that out. Although, if I may say, they already knew this. And, as others have said, they're only sorry they got caught.

In the previous story, they said this was done to prevent "illegal copying". Interesting... How is that they know that the copy a person is making is for themselves, or for someone else? They don't, which reduces their argument to nothing more than the idea that any copying is illegal, and they've obviously acted on that.

This isn't even a case of "too little, too late." It should've never happened in the first place...

Sony BMG and Sony Music

[ucblockhead]

What often gets lost in all this is that "Sony BMG" is a joint venture owned equally by Sony and Bertelsman and is NOT the same thing as "Sony Music". AFAIK, they are fairly independent of each other. I do not know if all this copy protection bullshit was added before or after Sony acquired half of BMG, but I am pretty sure that Mr. Hesse does not at all speak for Sony music.

Re:Sony BMG and Sony Music

[DreamerFi]

That's his problem, not mine, isn't it? I mean, they decided to use the "good name" of sony in both companies, and now they get the bad part of name recognition as well. It would be silly of them to expect only the positive effects of name recognition to work.

Re:Sony BMG and Sony Music

[ucblockhead]

My point is that "Sony BMG" saying "we won't use rootkits" means that "Sony BMG" won't use rootkits, not that "Sony Music" won't use rootkits.

Re:Sony BMG and Sony Music

[DreamerFi]

Ah. Good point actually. By now I'm so "done" with everyting Sony that I glossed over the distinction you made.

Repentence at the Temple of Doom

[digitaldc]

Today class we will have a lesson on "How to get Busted and Not Apologize for It" I submit to you the following 'must-use' phrases:

"But this whole story has led us to look at the approach we have to take going forward..."

"...diligently re-evaluate..."

"Its fairly common and the fix is easy to provide through a software update."

"Even if the issue is only a slight one, at Sony BMG we are very clear that any software security issues are taken with the utmost seriousness."

Now you will know what to say if you ever get caught in a spyware scandal. Class dismissed.

Soon installed by default

[msbsod]

What bothers me most about the discussion is that DRM (restriction of consumers' rights), rootkits (hiding certain software), spyware (online monitoring), trusted computing (owners denied access to their own computer) and all that crap will be part of the next Microsoft Windows release. Soon companies like Sony will no longer have to distribute malicious CD. The malicious software will be installed on most PC's by default. Heck, even the signals over the monitor cables and be encrypted. The future already arrived with some products. Popular DVD players for PC's do not play some DVD's if the TV output of a graphics adapted is enabled (this is absurd!). Proprietary file formats require Internet access so that companies can monitor everybody and, if they wish, deny access. People are buying such products. Most people do not know what they buy, because the mass media are either in one bed with those who advocate the malicious software or they are completely blind. Sony rootkits are just the beginning.

What does S.O.N.Y. stand for?

[Hosiah]

"Sorry, Only Not Yet!"

Dear SONY/BMG

[Tsiangkun]

You can re-evaluate all you want.

I will not be re-evaluating my commitment to avoid your products.

or in Dear John terms,

Dear SONY,

It's you, not me. There is nothing for you to evaluate here, so you can stop with the pathetic PR bullshit.
It's sad to see you so desperate for my attention, when I have no interest in you.
I ended this relationship because of your actions, you need to move on and get over it.
I never want to see you again.
No matter how you claim to have changed, and how much you have claimed to learn, I'm not interested.
BDs--not interested. PS3--not interested. SONY batteries in the super market isle--not interested.

You walked into my house, removed the locks from my doors and windows, and had one hell of a crack party.
You put my security at risk, and in this post 9-11 world, I believe you are a terrorist threat to freedom and privacy.

Yours Truly,

Re:Dear SONY/BMG

[burndive]

You put my security at risk, and in this post 9-11 world, I believe you are a terrorist threat to freedom and privacy.

Is there a new Godwin's Law?

Insufficient response

[keraneuology]

They didn't go far enough.

Saying they're sorry is not enough.

Being sorry is not enough.

Understanding that they were wrong is not enough. (Though I doubt that they actually grasp this concept... Sony's executive and official remarks along the lines that since most people don't know what a rootkit is therefore they shouldn't care about one fairly accurately indicate the corporate culture over there. They aren't sorry that they did wrong, they are sorry that they had to listen to their customers and non-customers alike whining about the situation.)

I want somebody fired over this. The president would be great, but handing a sacrificial pink slip to a VP would suffice. Such a great and monumental screwup - including the intentional introduction of inadvertant (no, not a contradiction) security holes onto the computers of the people who are paying their salaries is, IMNSHO, criminal, but fat chance of charges ever being pressed. I'm sure the execs would fire their assistants for putting Splenda (tm) in the morning coffee instead of Equal or printing out the day's email in 11.5 New Roman instead of 12 Times, but when it comes to something that actually matters not a demotion or even a negative review in the executive's employment file. In fact, I'll wager the screwup who gave the green light to this whole project still gets a fat six figure bonus for "great" performance.

If Sony wants my money again they they have to can an exec and have security escort him from the building. If all sony music fans followed suit then a message would be sent loud and clear that this abuse of the customers will not be tolerated and execs throughout the industry would understand that what they do may actually have ~gasp~ consequences.

Re:Insufficient response

[NeutronCowboy]

Fired? That's it? I want someone in jail over this. No golden parachute, no "I'm sorry it's not working out" million dollar severance package, no re-hiring in a subdivision or rival, but a pound him in the ass jail. Some real consequences. Hopefully, that will get execs thinking next time they cook up a scheme like that.

Re:Insufficient response

[Esion Modnar]

I want somebody fired over this.

I want somebody perp-walked. If the RIAA thinks someone should go to jail over song lyrics, then fine, send some of these higher-ups to jail. (Some pimple-faced teen hacker, doing the same thing to Sony, would get no less.) And real jail, not some Martha Stewart summer camp.

Three to Five hard labor would be good, but even 30 days in the pokie would send a strong message.

I doubt that Sony's behavior has changed.

[Futurepower(R)]

I seriously doubt that Sony's behavior has changed in any significant way. Here is what Mark Russinovich had to say on November 30, 2005: Premature Victory Declaration?

Sony, ethics

[msbsod]

There was another Sony case which they quietly settled by paying a few million Euro. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/01/walkman_pa tent_case/
This company questions people's ethics!

Sony isn't a sentient being!!!!

[vertinox]

Sony Repents Over CD Debacle

Sony could no less repent than a rock on the ground. Unless you have some type of being that feels emotions then stop trying anthromorphize corporations.

Re:Ripping off the BBC's title is not cool.

[MS-06FZ]

The article is the BBC's, so why not the title?

DRM what

[shamer]

Don't care. I buy my music, I use linux. If there is a day when the can watermark my drives someone who is smarter than myself can thwart it. Don't foget about playing it in a CD player and just recording the output. With decent equipment i can get close enough quality to enjoy the sounds. Sony want's to install rootkits, i won't buy sony music. the same goes for "good" record lables. As a matter of fact, i may just buy those DRM lables lock myself in a room and reverse engineer myself just to spite them. I pay for music, not some lame a$$ software they try to "sneak" onto my machine. No matter what technology man creates, man can reverse it. BRING IT ON RIAA, you do not have enough resources to stop the WORLD from out thinking you.

Re:Ripping off the BBC's title is not cool.

[Entropius]

Because linking to something is a citation.

Copying something is plagiarism.

Question

[shamer]

Does sony place a warning on the CD, that this CD contains software on your PC? i realize when it is placed in the PC, the EULA pops up, but is is written on the outside of the CD, where one can see it before they buy ?

Re:If I'd waited this long...

[ChilyWily]

No, no I think you may be correct. After all, DRM is just the software approximation of a wife. She knows all what you do, where you do and you have to keep her happy :)

ChilyWily

(all in jest, I love you, Dear..NO CARRIER

Defence against RIAA ?

[flashpaul]

I wonder if people sued by RIAA could use this as a defence " I downloaded the album because i was scared the sony rootkit would kill my pc " maybe worth a try

Repent?

[Snorpus]

I don't see repent in "reevalutate."

I don't see "We're sorry." I don't see "We were wrong." I don't see "We promise we won't do it again." I don't see "Please forgive us."

All I see is "We're going to think about how we do this in the future."

Plagiarism

[strikethree]

The article submitter did a straight copy&paste from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4514678.stm

Is it really that hard to summarise in your own words?

strike

No Xmas for Sony

[Error27]

I read an article that the spyware hadn't affected CD sales. Sony is there to make money not friends. Unless it makes an immediate impact on revenue they won't even notice.

Join me in wishing the whole Sony corporation a cold dark Christmas this year.

What is the real problem

[Dalec21]

Is the problem that Sony(and the like) will stop at nothing to accomplish their goal, whatever that may be ?

Or is the real problem that some people have auto-play enabled ?

SONY should start by canning Hesse

[KwKSilver]

The fact that they haven't says they approve of everthing that has been done. There is simply no other way to read the fact the he is still employed by SONY. SONY and Hesse seem to be laughing at everone whose computer was infected.

Re:SONY should start by canning Hesse

[keraneuology]

SONY and Hesse seem to be laughing at everone whose computer was infected.

Not even in a fantasy world. Nobody there is laughing over this: with 100% of my being I believe that this was not done with actual malice, so accusing them of laughing over the situation isn't accurate, fair, realistic, plausible, or rational. By making such accusations you diminish the legitimacy of any demands that somebody be fired over this.

The problem is that, like most major corporations, the shots are called by MBAs and similar business types. People who have no real skills other than pushing numbers around, blowing smoke, and sucking up to investors and the board. Most (not all!!!!!) denziens of the corporate stratosphere have never founded their own business, have never worked with their own hands or ever produced anything tangible or of value. Most music execs have never seriously played an instrument: they chap their lips on butts, not horns. I wouldn't be shocked if many of them couldn't carry a tune in a bucket and find themselves banned from karaoke bars. Throw into the mix a healthy number of people promoted to fill affirmative action quotas, promotions on the grounds of sex (the genitals or the activity or both), friends of mucks, offspring of mucks and other people who are there for no rational reason whatsoever, and you have an environment where talent and ability mean virtually nothing.

Unpaid copies of song tracks neatly shows up in the - column. Loss of goodwill, unfortunately, doesn't. Any activity that appears - on paper - to attack something in the - column and is certified as the lawyers as being unlikely to provoke a successful lawsuit - will be embraced warmly.

Re:SONY should start by canning Hesse

[KwKSilver]

I saw nothing in Hesse's comments that showed even the least shred of repentance. Not even "We are sorry." I just went back and re-read that article, if there was any regret expressed, I missed it. Show me I'm wrong, and I will change my opinion.

You seem to be judging SONY et al. by you perception of their good intentions. (The road to where is paved with good intentions?) We all want to be judged by our intentions. If there is anything cheaper than talk, it is "good intentions." Because intentions are unfathomable, we have to judge by actions. What have we seen here?

1) denial that a rootkit is something negative, 2) denial of phone-home behavior, 3) a complex, multi-step "removal procedure" that left users vulnerable, ..., etc. Is it fixed yet? Any admission of wrongdoing? None that I have seen. SONY and many other corporate groups (by which I do not mean to imply only businesses, political parties and religions are also corporate groups) suffer from the delusion that they can do no wrong. Bullcrap. That is hubris. Hubris inevitably leads to disaster, sometimes sooner, sometimes later. It is/was the #1 subject of ancient Greek tragedy.

You may be right about one thing, "seems to be laughing at" may have been a poor choice of words ..."seems to be sneering at" may be better.

I'm so sorry, come back baby!

[diakka]

SONY: I'm so sorry baby. Can't you see how you hurt me leaving me this way? I promise I'll never hit you again... It's just that when you do that I just can't control myself. Can you forgive me this one last time?

CUSTOMER: Well.. ok.

SONY: Oh... thank you baby. I'm so lucky to have you... And BITCH!, if you EVER try to leave me again I'll knock your skull so hard you'll do a backflip!

XCP CD's still on the shelf

[tube013]

I was out at Best Buy today, and was looking at a few cds. And came across a whole stack of cds with the suppossedly recalled xcp copy protection. I thought about saying something to the store. Sort of bewilders me that this shit is still sitting on shelves at the store. I almost bought one so I could join in the class action lawsuits.

Re: Um, Please don't fix this design problem...

[Harodotus]

The very last thing we here at the Slashdot community is gripe about DRM in a way that comes up with a do-able (or even semi-doable) solution.

In general I think that locked down DRM is not an unsolvable problem, it's just that I'd like to believe the really good engineers won't sign up to create such an evil technology.

If we here at Slashdot put our heads together and gripe in a manner that solves it (to better mock them), and then that design leaks to the MPAA/RIAA. Well then we'd have nobody to complain to but ourselves...

Lets let somebody we already hate, such as Microsoft or SCO, write it and then we can go blissfully finger-pointing in our usual smug and superior manner.

Sony repents

[Cro Magnon]

Translation: "I'm sorry I got caught".

Even worse

[A nonymous Coward]

Suppose they put DRM into all new equipment, or even just all new kinds of equipment (blue-ray etc). If it talks to old equipment, they have lost the battle and the war. If it doesn't talk to old equipment, then no one will upgrade. Someone asks the salesman about the new whizbang camcorder, learns they will have to buy all new stereo, tv, speakers, everything, so that $1000 camera turns into $10,000, and walks out the door, cursing every store employee in sight.

There is no way to phase people over to the DRM generation. They just can't see that.

The brass tacks of behavior development:

[6350']

i didnt do anything wrongWHAP!! waaaaaWHAP!! *sniff* sorryWHAP! ok, maybe i wont do it again.

I don't know. Personally, I'm tempted to keep hitting them.

and there goes my karma...

[rdoger6424]

There's nothing to see here; please move along.

Two words : Christmas season

[MMaestro]

Really, was Neil Diamond's latest really destined for anything more than 1 week in the top 10?

Maybe not Neil Diamond, but generally products (or in this case, music) released just before the Thanksgiving/Christmas season tend to maintain high sales until the end of the season. To go from the top 10 to mid-50s is a huge drop considering decreases in sales are generally in gradual. Say 5 to 9 to 15 to 25 and so on. Not 10 (the lowest possible start point) to 25 ("mid 50's").

Re:Two words : Christmas season

[OzPhIsH]

I sort of see what you're saying but I think this is kind of a flawed analysis when talking about music CD's. There is just way too many things you have to consider. First there is the market for Neil Diamond's music. Just because his album release was during the holiday timeframe, doesn't suddenly mean that the market for his product will somehow increase. I'm thinking that a large chunk of the market for Neil Diamond products went ahead and bought the CD on first week of release. After that point, there isn't as many people left to sell the damn thing to. Perhaps the holiday timing is what caused the initial top 10 listing in the first place. Maybe if it was released in summer it would have only ever peaked at what it is currently ranked at. What about all the other CD's that have been released in the same time frame, and that will be released in the next few weeks. These all will have some kind of impact won't they? I just don't see how people can only blame the DRM fiasco (Yes, I'm sure it did have SOME effect) when a lot of it is really just the effect of competition in a highly competitive market.

Re:Two words : Christmas season

[afaik_ianal]

I think a lot of people are going to misunderstand your extremely important point because you're trying to offer a possible explanation for the drop on the charts, rather than explaining why their original assumption about causality is not necessarily correct.

There are two relevant points here:
  1. Correlation does not imply cause; and
  2. Anecdotal data does not evidence correlation.

they're REALLY sorry...

[alizard]

They've now got several class action lawsuits in project, one of which is EFF/Lerach... I think a couple from state AGs... most of the music with the malware on it tanked in the charts as soon as the word got out... and I suspect that they're waiting for legal action from their artists against them, especially the ones who were looking for an excuse to break their contracts anyway.

But that isn't enough. Their stock needs to be hammered down to 10% or less of their pre-rootkit price. If their price goes so low that a consumer technology company buys them for fire sale prices... that will be enough, because nobody in the industry will ever try it again... because the CEO who signed off on it has become radioactive with stockholder lawsuits attempting to take his golden parachute out of his hide.

Once in a while, I'll feed a troll

[Headcase88]

So you're saying that just because the government suspected them of being terrorists, they can do whatever they want with them? You ask about how the grandparent feels about victims of terrorism to justify a "guilty until proven innocent" mentality.

So if I came up to you on the street, I could just say "I think you're a terrorist" and shoot you in the head, right? After all, think of the victims of terrorist acts that you might have been a part of.

cheaper prices

[zogger]

The RIAA folks could get people to switch to the new drm'ed format easily by using human nature-greed. Cheap sells. Witness Walmart. It works. By offering the disks much cheaper than standard disks are today they could influence the hardware market. Store shelf, old CD title, 20$, new DRMed disk that needs the new DRM'ed hardware, same title, 3$. Something like that, side by side. They could easily drop prices to only 10% (whatever) of what they charge now (which is what they should be doing business-ethically and then there would be no problems really), sort of a generational loss lead. the first few years they could dump the hardware cheap too for that matter. Want the cheaper discs with DRM,OK then, they work in these approved players, etc. A few years later, poof, a done deal. Millions will adopt and adapt. Cheap *works*. And because the music industry is by and large a closed shop cooperating monopolistic cartel, if they all did it at once, well there ya go, a fait accompli. You combine that with increasingly severe laws for "piracy",which is happening,and you now have the carrot and the stick approach, a time tested workable solution. You won't get everyone, but if you get the bulk of them, you win. They have the organization, the cash and the bribery expertise with congress. How are they going to lose eventually? The US in particular has an offical economic position of a raging hard on for "IP" protection, because we have decided manufacturing tangibles is passe. Copyrighted music is right up there in that scene.

  They really don't care much yet in the "developing world", where copying is even more widespread and common, because there's not much cash there anyway for full price disks, so for now if they strictly enforce it law-wise and do the loss lead concept, they could conceivably win in the developed world where there's still serious cash to be grifted.

The music industry isn't in the "Music" business, they are in the music "Distribution" business. It's easier to see how they think if you look at it from that angle.

Re:cheaper prices

[Spamalope]

By offering the disks much cheaper than standard disks are today they could influence the hardware market. Store shelf, old CD title, 20$, new DRMed disk that needs the new DRM'ed hardware, same title, 3$. Something like that, side by side.

Cheaper? From the music industry?!?! I doubt it. That would lower the perceived value of the new format. The new format will be priced the same or higher. New music will be available with DRM only formats for the first few months. Later, CDs will be the 'legacy' format that can still be bought, but at an increased price to cover the cost of supporting this older technology. Software makers do this all the time. If adoption isn't quick enough, all CDs can be produced with reduced quality to make sure the new format is superior by comparison.

The music industry can freeze you out by not producing CDs, crippling the audio quality, or inflating the price. Lets hope they don't have the will to do it.

Re:cheaper prices

[The_Rook]

more to the point, drm makes a recording more expensive to produce since the media company has to pay an additional licensing fee for the drm technology.

the media industry doesn't just want us to use drm. they want us to pay for it too.

It won't have to...

[dragon_imp]

A DRM-compliant hard drive could recognize such a watermark and refuse to write the file. This is the world the RIAA wants.

It won't have to -- isn't that the kind of user-friendliness promised in the new Windows Vista?

Re:It won't have to...

[lgw]

Sure, but you can always choose an OS that isn't retarded. It would be a lot harder to work around DRM installed in hard drive firmware, but again I think the money is on the side of user rights in this case.

The one with the cash has the power

[skeptictank]

If it doesn't play in the device you want it to, take it back to the store you bought it at. Believe me, people returning CDs to the retailer because they won't play will have even more impact with companies like Sony-BMG than complaining on a website will. The cost to the distributor for items returned to a physical point of sale can be several time the cost of manufacturing the item.

A retail outlet won't put up with faulty products for any length of time if people make a point of returning them, because they have to eat the loss.

The buyer has the power, you will survive a lot longer without buying music than Sony-BMG will survive not selling it.

I cry BS!!!

[Autonomous Crowhard]

They may have repented but have they learned anything? I doubt it. From a Yahoo article:

Sony BMG Music Entertainment's other copy-protected CDs are in trouble. Sony on Tuesday released a patch to take care of a security bug associated with playing CDs using a form of copy protection from SunnComm in personal computers. A leading Princeton University researcher wrote on his blog Wednesday that the patch opens users to malicious attacks. Sony on Thursday said it posted a new patch on its sonybmg.com website to fix the problem. Professor Ed Felten has called on Sony BMG to recall the estimated 6 million SunnComm CDs - including titles by Alicia Keys and Santana - as the label did with CDs with XCP copy protection.

Sony DRM attitude responsible for Librie failure

[Russ Nelson]

I think that Sony's attitude towards DRM is responsible for the failure of their Librie (E-Ink E-Book) to gain any market share. They actually thought that they could sell e-books that expired. I.e. it's gone within 60 days; if you hadn't finished reading it by then, you're screwed. Oh, sure, you could reflash it to gain capabilities Sony didn't intend. When you have to reflash the device, game over for any market penetration (e.g. Familiar.handhelds.org on Compaq/HP iPAQs).
-russ

Elliot Spitzer is on the case

[Animats]

Elliot Spitzer, the New York State Attorney General, is working on that. After Sony announced the recall, his investigators found "recalled" CDs still on sale. As Spitzer put it, "It is unacceptable that more than three weeks after this serious vulnerability was revealed, these same CDs are still on shelves, during the busiest shopping days of the year."

Spitzer's office has been going after spyware and adware for some time now. They shut down MyCoolScreen, KeenValue, IncrediFind, and a host of other annoyances.

Here's how a prosecutor described that spyware and adware:

In successive tests conducted by the Attorney General's office, the sole hint - far from legally sufficient - of any software bundled with the screensaver occurred on the fourth page of a long license agreement, under the vague heading "Additional Information." Even then, the bundled spyware was described in vague and misleading terms.

Exacerbating the harm from its installation of hidden spyware programs, Intermix employs deceptive methods to prevent users from detecting and removing its software. ...

Making matters worse, Intermix designs its spyware programs so that when users uninstall the program with which the spyware was bundled (e.g., a screensaver), Intermix's spyware products remain behind, installed and fully operational. ...

Intermix also prevents its spyware programs from being listed in the commonlyaccessed "Add/Remove Programs" utility in the Microsoft Windows operating system, making removal yet more difficult.

In the rare instance where Intermix does allow for the uninstallation of its software, the uninstall often does not work properly, leaving files and functionality installed.

Finally, Intermix sometimes reinstalls spyware after a user has deleted it.

FIRST CAUSE OF ACTION (DECEPTIVE ACTS AND PRACTICES)

32. By repeatedly and persistently engaging in the acts and practices described above, Respondent has repeatedly and persistently engaged in deceptive acts or practices in violation of 9 GBL 349.

SECOND CAUSE OF ACTION (FALSE ADVERTISING)

36. By repeatedly and persistently engaging in the acts and practices described above, Respondent has repeatedly and persistently engaged in false advertising in violation of GBL 350.

THIRD CAUSE OF ACTION (TRESPASS TO CHATTELS)

39. New York common law prohibits the intentional intermeddling with a chattel, including a computer, in possession of another that results in the deprivation of the use of the chattel or impairment of the condition, quality or usefulness of the chattel.

40. By repeatedly and persistently engaging in the acts and practices described above, Respondent has repeatedly and persistently engaged in trespass to chattels in violation of New York common law.

41. Respondent's violations of New York common law constitute repeated and persistent illegal conduct in violation of Executive Law 63(12).

Almost identical language can be used to describe Sony/BMG's spyware. And probably will be.

You can be sure of one thing

[klagg]

You can be sure that any decrease in cd-sales due to this whole debacle is going to be blamed on piracy. They are not likely to say that "cd-sales decreased by X %, but that's mostly a reaction against our decision to use drm software".

More Lies

[Tom]

"Rethinking our strategy" is just marketing speech for "please don't beat us anymore, it hurts but we don't want to do anything serious about it anyways".

I'll believe in a change when heads start rolling. And I mean highly placed heads. Hesse is an excellent candidate in fact, after some of the things he said early on, he should be first to go. And if you ask me, he should be first to go straight to prison, do not pass go, do not collect a huge parting gift.

Now Pirates can make money

[4Dmonkey]

Thomas Hesse, told the BBC that the company was 're-evaluating' its current methods.

Which means they are trying to come up with more robust methods of copy protection. The cheap tricks are turning back to bite their asses.
If they make it hard enough for masses to copy something, they open new oppurtunities for people skilled enough to crack it and ask for some money in return of their "services".
Let the DRMless CD industry bloom in China or some place like that.

Sony Repents - Now Penance

[Foobar of Borg]

And now for penance, all the Sony executives must pray one Our Father, three Hail Marys and then stay the hell away from the music industry.

While they're at it....

[mrobinso]

...I'd really appreciate it if Sony re-evaluated their aggressive pursuit of
proprietary-ship.

Case in point, I purchased a pair of Sony Fontopia Earbuds for my ipod.
$70 plus tax.

Those soft little foam covers are great, block out tons of outside noise
and form a contact with the inner ear that provides wicked bass response.
Problem is, buying a replacement pair of those little foam covers costs
$10US. There is only 1 store in Toronto that sells them and man, they come
off way too easily.

For $10 US you can buy a bag of 5 pairs of covers for any of Shure's earbud
products, foam or silicon.

Total gouge, and I'm bloody sick of it.
No more Sony stuff for me.

mike

People actually believe this spin doctoring?

[lpq]

Spin doctoring words are meaningless. Lets see what actions follow.
-l

Re:energy is liberated through blasphemy

[koreaman]

I don't get it. I thought trolls were supposed to offend someone, or be funny?

First of all, Slashdot is rife with atheists. No one cares.
Second, I, one of /.'s few Christian's, am not even offended.
Third, it's not funny. Grow up.

What apology?

[sasdrtx]

This was in no way an apology. Some exec was quoted saying that they would be "re-evaluating" their copy-protection schemes. Who the hell calls that an apology? There wasn't anything that sounded like any admission they did something wrong. He merely noted that they got a lot of bad publicity, which of course they want to avoid in the future. In other words, they might be sorry they got caught, but that just means they have another consideration for the next plan they have for screwing their customers.

Sony/BMG: gleeful face kicks.

[gd23ka]

Repenting (in the genuine sense) means dropping mentally to your knees and realizing what sort of an asshole you have been and then making amends to those you wronged, not because
it is more profitable for you to do so, but because you can empathize with their pain and
misery.

I doubt that Sony, a soulless legal entity has the capacity for genuine repentance... nor do its legal guardians, the board of directors. They and the organization they are promoting gleefully kick you into your face forever for profit apologizing profusely between kicks.

Welcome to the 0700 Kennel Cliub

[gd23ka]

Please remember that "Energy is liberated when an individual cherishes his dog. This energy strengthens the spirit and gives courage. Help me teach others to love their dogs." Dog, beloved dog, I love you in the name of canine glory most almighty. Pure love for dogs lives in me and I walk with my dog all the days of my life feeding and petting you, dog (the God), wonderful cuddly creature. My love grows by the second as I dream of the day when you dog are at my feet gnawing your bone.