Fate of High-Def DVD up to Microsoft?

BlackMesaResearchFac writes "EE Times is reporting that Microsoft may have chosen a side in the ongoing optical disk war. From the article: 'several industry sources last week told EE Times that Microsoft is muscling into the optical-disk fray by leveraging its operating-system clout to bundle HD-DVD within Vista, the company's next-generation OS. There is also talk that the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives -- in the form "coupons" -- to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD. Such coupons would provide "credits" or "memos" for each PC that is sold with HD-DVD inside.'"

Comments

Anti Competitive

[ackthpt]

There is also talk that the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives -- in the form "coupons" -- to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD. Such coupons would provide "credits" or "memos" for each PC that is sold with HD-DVD inside.'"

I thought this was deemed illegal in the past. IIRC Microsoft was busted for kickback payments to system vendors who did their bidding, i.e. wouldn't bundle competing products on Windows installed computers. A "Coupon" wouldn't make it any different, it's an anti-competitive practice.

In October, when Microsoft and Intel Corp. announced their support for HD-DVD, Weber warned of "legal implications, if Microsoft is using its dominance in the operating system market -- virtually a monopoly -- to play favorites and hurt the competition" (see www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleI D=171202192).

With good reason.

Among familiar Microsoft tactics is to offer incentives -- promotions, discounts and credits -- to PC OEMs. If a certain percentage of an OEM's systems use Windows, Microsoft typically chips in on advertising campaigns and co-sponsors promotional events. When a PC manufacturer is living on a 3 percent margin, such market-development payments or volume-discount rebates can be make-or-break factors. Some industry observers have termed these in-kind subsidies from Microsoft "the heroin of the PC industry."

Vendors who have this incentive will not diminish their potential revenue by giving consumers a choice.

This effectively puts Microsoft's foot firmly in the door on writing the DRM, too. Of course, with their track record that means it'll be either easily cracked and/or your DVD player will become infested with worms and virii.

Expect it to go to court after it is fait accompli.

it's a new hope of return of the revenge of the menacing phantom clone empire striking back all over again.
"If I had time and a hammer, I'd track down every blue hd ray dvd and smash it"

Re:Anti Competitive

[garcia]

This effectively puts Microsoft's foot firmly in the door on writing the DRM, too. Of course, with their track record that means it'll be either easily cracked and/or your DVD player will become infested with worms and virii.

It effectively attempts to curb Sony's console dominance by making Blu-Ray next to worthless. This is the sole reason they are doing it and by leveraging their weight against PC makers, etc to attempt to harm their competition in a completely different market is the worst of it all.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Krach42]

Of course, with their track record that means it'll be either easily cracked and/or your DVD player will become infested with worms and virii.

Expect it to go to court after it is fait accompli.

How can you use "fait accompli" properly, yet not know the plural of "virus" is "viruses"?

Re:Anti Competitive

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see how this is any different from what Sony is trying to do. They are going to use their dominance in the console market to try to make Blu-Ray the defacto standard. Microsoft is backing HD-DVD for the same reason. Both are equally good or bad. There is no difference.

Re:Anti Competitive

[garcia]

Microsoft is backing HD-DVD for the same reason. Both are equally good or bad. There is no difference.

While I'm sure there are backroom dealings going on w/Sony and various hardware vendors, I don't see any reports (yet) of them giving coupons and using anti-competitive tactics (which Microsoft has already been found guilty of doing in numerous arenas across the globe) to gain more marketshare for a single standard.

Microsoft *should* be supporting ALL hardware on their OS by default if they want to remain the most useful OS. They shouldn't be playing games (pun, sorry) to try and gain more support for their console's marketshare.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Anonymous Coward]

"fait accompli" is French, "virii" is something made up looking Latinish.

Re:Anti Competitive

[JPriest]

Virii is not a word. It is correctly spelled viruses. Virii is an internet bastardization of the word.

Re:Anti Competitive

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

Microsoft *should* be supporting ALL hardware on their OS by default

I have a feeling it isn't that hardware that is the issue (just my speculation). But doesn't Blu-Ray use java for its interactive content system? We all know the fights and head-aches about can MS include a jvm? Is MS forced to include a jvm? What version does it have to be? etc, etc, etc? With HD-DVD I belive the interactive content is run my a MS system iHD so obviously its pretty easy for them to support. Now they don't like Sony much I guess and I'm sure that plays into it, but as far as what they OS supports I think its more of a software issue than a hardware issue.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Anonymous Coward]

While I'm sure there are backroom dealings going on w/Sony and various hardware vendors, I don't see any reports (yet) of them giving coupons and using anti-competitive tactics (which Microsoft has already been found guilty of doing in numerous arenas across the globe) to gain more marketshare for a single standard.

Sony doesn't have to resort to this because they developed both Blu-Ray and the PS3. They don't have to bribe themselves to include it. I don't want to defend Microsoft's tactics but I can understand why they are doing this if true. They already missed out on including next generation support in XBox 360, and they can't control what kind of hardware PC makers include with their systems. Millions of PS3s with Blu-Ray support will make it the defacto standard.

Microsoft *should* be supporting ALL hardware on their OS by default if they want to remain the most useful OS. They shouldn't be playing games (pun, sorry) to try and gain more support for their console's marketshare.

It will be supported the same way that optical drives are supported now. The software will come with the drive. They are not preventing Blu-Ray from working in Windows, they are simply trying to encourage vendors to include HD-DVD drives in their systems.

As for the console market, the XBox 360 has a standard DVD drive in it. This won't help Microsoft increase marketshare. Maybe I confused you when I stated that Microsoft is doing the same thing that Sony is doing.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Trigulus]

to all who are so bent out of shape over the use of the (non)word virii: fuck off. get a life. etc. seriously you people need to take your meds.

Re:Anti Competitive

[plover]

How can you use "fait accompli" properly, yet not know the plural of "virus" is "viruses"?

Wordplay has long been a trait of the hacker community, dating back 40 years or more. "Virii" obviously has valid meaning, or you wouldn't have been able to understand it, let alone supply an alternate spelling for it. Virii entered the hacker argot well over ten years ago -- your whining won't eliminate it.

Give the whole "O woe are we! Our poor, precious language is under attack from heathens who mock the very Latin roots of it!" a rest. Language is not a static thing under the watchful control of the OED -- the OED simply reports on the current state of the words. Their slogan proudly proclaims "The definitive record of the English language." Nowhere do they imply control over the words contained within.

Language is dynamic. It changes, it grows. You should, too.

Re:Anti Competitive

[drinkypoo]

Microsoft's recent deal with Sun Microsystems has opened things up so that Microsoft can play with Java again. To what degree, I'm not sure, but I believe they can use the name "Java" once more...

Re:Anti Competitive

[drinkypoo]

It will be supported the same way that optical drives are supported now. The software will come with the drive. They are not preventing Blu-Ray from working in Windows, they are simply trying to encourage vendors to include HD-DVD drives in their systems.

This is not the way optical drives are supported now, and it hasn't been since DOS and Windows 3.x. All the current optical drives are supported by an ATAPI driver. They don't come with a driver, because they implement a standard.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Ravatar]

Microsoft *should* be supporting ALL hardware on their OS by default

Just like OS 10? Oh, wait..

Re:Anti Competitive

[cthellis]

Since when would that matter? All the software needed to run the disks will come with the player; MS themselves don't have to do step one. While they may well integrate iHD better with Vista, that means dick-all to simply being able to "play the media." MS can go scratch in this case--it's all about them leveraging their OS to try to hurt Sony elsewhere so they can try to dominate that market (and by extension, the rest of the living room) as well. There is no "software issue."

Re:Anti Competitive

[stanmann]

If By internet you mean before Algore invented it then yes I accept your definition, if you mean afterward, you are sadly mistaken.

Re:Anti Competitive

[cgenman]

There are several big differences. For one, Sony doesn't have a monopoly on the console market the way that Microsoft does on the OS market. Consoles churn by nature, and there is no guarantee that the PS3 will even be a contender. By comparison, Windows Vista's success is as sure as death and taxes.

Second, Sony isn't forcing other people to include Blue-Ray in their devices. Microsoft has the muscle to throw around promotions and bundle discounts. That's a nice way of saying that they're going to charge you a lot more if you don't do their bidding. Sony may throw memory sticks into every device they make, but so far nobody else supports that standard.

Re:Anti Competitive

[uberdave]

This is not the way optical drives are supported now, and it hasn't been since DOS and Windows 3.x.

Pass me some of that holiday nog! Optical drives weren't standardized until Windows98 hit the scene.

Re:Anti Competitive

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

All the software needed to run the disks will come with the player...There is no "software issue."

Completely agree and thats what I actually meant, but perhaps didn't state it very well. That need to install something seperate (either on disc or download) is what this will all boil down to and thats what I meant by "software issue". Obviously, you will be able to play Blu-Ray on windows, just MS might use this need for extra software to say BR isn't 100% Win compliant, or some other such nonsense and use that fact to pressure builders to support HD-DVD so it "just works". And yes, I agree they are probably doing all this just to screw with Sony ;-)

Re:Anti Competitive

[Anonymous Coward]

Which would therefore be rather appropriate when referring specifically to computer virii (as opposed to biological viruses), don't you think?

Re:Anti Competitive

[QuantumLeaper]

Sony could have a problem with Blu-Ray and its not Microsoft, but the other Blu-Ray manufacters. If Sony sells the PS3 less then the other Blu-Ray players, the other makers will look on that Sony is dumping their product to win the console market which may kill the Blu-Ray player market, since they will be only one left in the Blu-Ray market. The cheapest Blu-Ray player prices, I have seen so far are running around $1000 or so.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Vegard]

We can only hope it's easily crackable. Fat chance they'll support anything else than Windows, and Mac to "show that they're multiplatform". Do you expect to use it on anything else? Wait for the crack...

Re:Anti Competitive

[Anonymous Coward]

Internet is correctly spelled "Internet", with a capital I.

Re:Anti Competitive

[cthellis]

Ah, ok... I indeed thought you were referring to a "software issue" causing internal development tiffs that would make them not want to push anything for Blu-Ray. ;-)

Overall I've expected them to do nothing in regards to Blu-Ray and for that not to matter (again, as with DVD, the software comes with the drives) except in a few circumstances (where MS has worked to make HD-DVD "work better" with their own software suites, etc.) That's fine. But I'm not in favor of the "incentivising" of one piece of hardware (where they should really not care about pushing anything at all) for OEM's monetarily in hopes of screwing around adoption of another standard. The "DVD wars" ultimately didn't do much other than cause some customer confusion, and while the "HD DVD wars" may pan out differently, MS should stand back as they did before and simply be fine with everyone always routing things through their damn OS. ;-)

I do not, however, ultimately think their maneuvers will matter. That market is still driven almost wholly by the set-top entertainment sector. PC's only in the past year have recently bothered with using DVD's for much of anything, and few people care unduely to play their movies on their PC (a bit heavier influence here from the laptop sector), so no matter what MS is pulling, I think the adoption/culling/combination of HD-DVD/Blu-Ray/whatever will be settled in other markets first.

I just still think such maneuvers would be crass and counter-productive for "we the consumer."

Re:Anti Competitive

[octopus72]

It is probably just untrue rumour. Although current government is unlikely to sue Microsoft, the evil empire is IMHO still reluctant to risk another antitrust case.

With such unreserved support for HD-DVD (instead of "whichever format prevails" stance), it must be because large money invested in xbox360 is at stake.

Re:Anti Competitive

[octopus72]

Microsoft is free to put HD-DVD players int xbox, as well as Sony is allowed to put in Blue-Ray. But it is not very clean anti-competitive practice to discriminate hardware support in general purpose operating system so only one novel format is natively supported.

If blue-ray drives become available soon, there is no reason not to have certified drivers for 'em bundled with Vista, if same criteria applies to HD-DVD.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Moofie]

DVD playback software, until recent versions of Windows Media Player, came with the DVD-ROM drive.

Re:Anti Competitive

[octopus72]

ATAPI is basic IDE interface driver. But what about raw data which atapi driver gets? Something must understand that part, and there comes specific driver.

Re:Anti Competitive

[octopus72]

ATAPI is basic IDE interface driver. But what about raw data which atapi driver gets? Something must understand that part, and there comes specific driver.

It's too late here. Actually ATAPI driver is lowest level driver, reading/writing directly from/to IDE hardware ports.

Re:Anti Competitive

[obeythefist]

Totally different - well, the end is really the same but this time MS won't be in any legal hot water.

Why?

Because they're not restricting OEM's from doing anything.
An OEM could theoretically bundle HD-DVD support *and* Blu-Ray and still get a rebate from MS.

Way back in the day, MS wasn't telling OEM's they had to supply MSIE - they were telling OEM's they couldn't supply Netscape. This new trick is just telling OEM's they get cheaper Windows if they supply MSIE along with it. Slightly less evil. And, in terms of the great absolutes of justice, it's legal.

Now, I don't have a problem with this, because from what I understand Sony isn't keen on you being able to read data from a Blu-Ray disk in a PC. Microsoft, however, wants users to keep and use their Fair-Use rights (namely, so they can stream to a 360, but so long as I keep more of my rights, I'm cool with that).

Also, if the DRM is cracked on either of these technologies, more so the better for humanity.

Re:Anti Competitive

[drinkypoo]

Pass me some of that holiday nog! Optical drives weren't standardized until Windows98 hit the scene.

I don't think you need any more nog. "In about 1992, the first documentsdescribing the ATAPI interface were published."

I have never needed a driver for a CDROM on Windows 9x, including Chicago betas. In other words, before Windows 95 even came out, let alone Windows 98. This is because I don't have a proprietary CDROM. Before the ATAPI drives, I had SCSI (Amiga, Mac.) However, before Windows 95 even came out, there were ATAPI drives (corresponding to the original standard from the SFF folks) and there were several of them. Take a look at the older dates on oakcdrom.sys sometime, by way of example.

You need to chiggy check yoself before you wiggy wreck yoself... er, too late.

Re:Anti Competitive

[drinkypoo]

We're not talking about a video playback application. We're talking about a device driver. Your comment is 100% irrelevant. Access to the UDF or ISO filesystem on a DVD, including device access, is handled by 100% included filesystem drivers, and 100% included ATAPI drivers (assuming ATA interface.) DVD movies STILL occasionally come with an on-disc autoplaying DVD player application, which wouldn't do shit good if the OS didn't support DVD-ROMs and DVD discs in them.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Krach42]

Wordplay has long been a trait of the hacker community, dating back 40 years or more.

Wow, really? Oh wait, next thing you're going to tell me is that word play has been a part of the entire English language for centuries upon centuries, back to before English would be mutually intelligable to us... Seriously, go on, tell me another one.

"Virii" obviously has valid meaning, or you wouldn't have been able to understand it, let alone supply an alternate spelling for it.

Lts f ppl ndrstnd wrds wtht vwls n thm, but that doesn't mean we should all just use that, because it's confusing, and bothersome.

Virii entered the hacker argot well over ten years ago -- your whining won't eliminate it.

Right, and it has it's place, like "foo", and "bar". From my experience "virii" as a plural is propogated mostly by stupid script kiddies, and less so by educated programmers. It sounds as much in place with his post as using the word "w00t", or "d00t". I'm not complaining so much about his use of virii, but rather the discord that it makes with his use of "fait accompli".

Give the whole "O woe are we! Our poor, precious language is under attack from heathens who mock the very Latin roots of it!" a rest.

Dude, seriously, I don't give a shit about people "attacking" our precious language. But using "virii" as a plural is stupid, it's attempting to apply a pluralization rule that just doesn't belong in English, and didn't even fit in the language that it came from.

Again, if you're writing some script kiddy speak, then I expect to see "virii", and "viruses" would look unauthentic. But if someone is walking around slapping around terms like "fait accompli", then they damn well should have the education to know the proper plural of "virus", and I expect them to use it. It's a social expectation, you're free to disagree, but I don't like seeing "virii" in well composed formal English.

Language is not a static thing under the watchful control of the OED -- the OED simply reports on the current state of the words. Their slogan proudly proclaims "The definitive record of the English language." Nowhere do they imply control over the words contained within.

I'm just going to assume that you didn't hear nothing, and don't understand that I be knowing what I be talking about. I understand that Language is not static. It's a very simple thing to clearly see.

While the OED does not dictate usage, it's perfectly acceptable for a social group to not like, and not approve of nothing that suits them. And to express such concern to the person making the statement. Were you in the presence of some dignitary of a nother country, and you would use non-standard English, then you're just being rude.

The composition of his article shows an education, and an experience, and a vocabulary above many peoples, hell, I had to look up "fait accompli" to know what it meant (not that I'm any sort of authority on the English language anymore... I was good as a young child, but I lost all that focus when I started learning other languages). If someone is using words like "fait accompli", I expect them to use the damn proper pluralization of "virus".

I mean, to not do so, ain't be making no sense... it's like using non-standard grammar when making a formal argument based on logic. People just ain't be hearing what you're saying, because they're too distracted by how you be saying it.

Re:Anti Competitive

[samkass]

don't see how this is any different from what Sony is trying to do. They are going to use their dominance in the console market to try to make Blu-Ray the defacto standard. Microsoft is backing HD-DVD for the same reason. Both are equally good or bad. There is no difference.

There is one difference. Sony does not have a monopoly in any market, including the console market. Microsoft has had a federal court decree that it has a monopoly in the operating system market.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Moofie]

Kay. Do you have reason to suspect that these new optical drives won't be ATAPI devices?

Re:Anti Competitive

[Awptimus Prime]

While I'm sure there are backroom dealings going on w/Sony and various hardware vendors, I don't see any reports (yet) of them giving coupons and using anti-competitive tactics (which Microsoft has already been found guilty of doing in numerous arenas across the globe) to gain more marketshare for a single standard.

Sony is in bed with the RIAA, they have also forced vendors to sell their consoles at fixed prices for years. Just because you don't like Microsoft, you shouldn't pretend Sony is a good company out to feed the poor and build churches.

I'm fairly certain that Microsoft is following the letter of the law here. It really doesn't matter what they do, since congress will, once again, come up with a new law just for Microsoft, then fine/batter them after the fact. That's why Microsoft will eventually, slowly move its operations into countries that won't be looking for reasons to screw them over and just be happy about the revenue it brings in.

All of this Microsoft hatred aside, their HD-DVD solution is a nice product. I've looked over the 720p and 1080p demos, and they look incredible compared to normal DVD. Meanwhile, Sony hasn't even shown the public what blue-ray looks like on a demo basis. Funny to see how people want to flock out and support something that doesn't exist yet, but I digress, the sheep can't help themselves.


Microsoft *should* be supporting ALL hardware on their OS by default if they want to remain the most useful OS. They shouldn't be playing games (pun, sorry) to try and gain more support for their console's marketshare.

Then you would be screaming in the forums about how they want to be anti-competitive on Apple hardware, too. Anyway, wouldn't Apple have something to say about them targetting their hardware platform? That'd scream for some kind of lawsuits and black eyes in the media.

Re:Anti Competitive

[lysergic.acid]

But by leveraging their marketshare against Sony's attempt to kill HD, doesn't this action make them anti-anti-competitive? In other words, aren't they simply providing the counter-weight against the Blu-Ray's strategy to kill HD, thus keeping the HD standard alive to compete with Blu-Ray?

If this had been Microsoft's offensive, then perhaps it could be seen as an abuse of their virtual monopoly. But I really can't see HD surviving very long without Microsoft's endorsement, so if you value competition, then this should be seen as a good thing.

Re:Anti Competitive

[toddestan]

By Windows 95, pretty much all new optical drives were standardized by then. It's certainly true that plenty of 386-486 era computers ran Windows 95 that had older propriety drives, and a few people probably frankenstiened an old CD drive a newer computer back then too. Most propriety drives never had Windows 95 drivers either. Usually you just installed the old DOS drivers into config.sys and autoexec.bat and hoped for the best. By the time Windows 98 came out, we were to the point where most new computers could boot from the CD drive, which was a huge improvement.

You may be thinking of SCSI CD drives. Windows didn't have native support for those. SCSI CD drives are pretty uncommon nowadays.

Re:Anti Competitive

[drinkypoo]

Nope. I fully expect them to be ATAPI. My whole point, though, was that if they aren't, the drivers will be available anyway...

Re:Anti Competitive

[Moofie]

Well, gee, thanks for pointing that out, I guess.

Re:Anti Competitive

[drinkypoo]

This was [apparently] news to a lot of people who were claiming that Windows would not have Blu-ray support. Many people seem to think that Microsoft would intentionally marginalize themselves fighting a losing battle. (Granted, they're doing this with Open Source, but that's very long term and there's a lot of money to be made before it happens. This would be short-term.) If you are not one of those people, why did you even bother to reply? Go hassle someone who needs a clue instead.

Re:Anti Competitive

[Moofie]

Microsoft has the market power to pick the winner in this battle.

Regardless of who wins, I guarantee you this: We (the end users) will lose.

"Go hassle someone who needs a clue instead."

Clue or no, it sounds like you need a hug.

Re:Anti Competitive

[HTH NE1]

Oh yeah? Well the plural of mouse (biological) is mice, but the plural of mouse (computer) is mouses(*).

So maybe the plural of your virus (biological) is viruses and the plural of our virus (computer) can be virii.

(*) Granted, Microsoft prefers "mouse devices" (ISBN 1-55615-939-0).

Re:Anti Competitive

[Guspaz]

So long as Microsoft includes the proper drivers for any BD-ROM drive, I'm happy. I don't have a problem with requiring a driver CD for a BD-RW drive in order to actually burn anything, but the basic reading functionality should be present in the default driver.

I don't expect Windows to be able to play BD video disks without software from somebody like Intervideo or Cyberlink, as it was with DVDs.

Obligatory Office Space

[AlienGoods]

Did you get the memo?

Monopoly anybody?

[sterno]

Yeah this is a clear cut case of them using their monopoly position to undercut Sony. A part of Sony's big gamble on the PS3 is that they can establish the market dominance of BluRay for HD media. What we are witnessing here is Microsoft's counter move, using their dominance of desktops to for HD-DVD as the standard.

Re:Monopoly anybody?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, then, I guess it sucks to be Sony.

Re:Monopoly anybody?

[garcia]

What we are witnessing here is Microsoft's counter move, using their dominance of desktops to for HD-DVD as the standard.

Yup. The only recourse Sony would then have is to heavily market their music collection holdings on Blu-Ray (which I assume they planned on already) and hope that it evens out the balance. They have lost the media format war in the past, hopefully it won't repeat.

Re:Monopoly anybody?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefully this doesn't really surprise anyone. Microsoft still bundles Internet Explorer; what's to stop them from bundling HD-DVD support if they choose to? We can still download and install Firefox, and I'm sure Bluray support can be added on. It seems pretty silly to think that this is part of a PS3-X360 war; after all, many more people watch movies at home than play video games. I'm betting that ultimately the public - not Microsoft - will decide which format will dominate.

Re:Monopoly anybody?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm betting that ultimately the public - not Microsoft - will decide which format will dominate.

Just as the public competently decided which OS is the best.

Re:Monopoly anybody?

[theStorminMormon]

I think that the public we have today is much different than the public that existed during the early OS wars. At that time OSs were relatively obscure and the general public neither knew nor cared what was going on.

This time around the general public tends to realize that MS is monopolistic (if not a monopoly) and Windows-alternatives (from Linux to Mac) have a large chunk of the public mindspace.

So now the public is both better informed and more invested in technology - I think we can trust them to at least make a better decision (if not the best decision) during this round of format wars.

-stormin

Re:Monopoly anybody?

[xenoterracide]

heck like stated up above this isn't just sony. it's getting to the point where it MS corp verses everyone else. sony, sun, opensource, if they're right. and blueray uses java, the ps3 also runs linux. so the success of hd-dvd and vista, may be the ultimate decider in the victory or loss of microsoft in the war...

Re:Monopoly anybody?

[stanmann]

Beta format lost. I don't think we can trust the public on choices like this. Power to the Sheeple.

Re:Monopoly anybody?

[squiggleslash]

BetaMax lost because it deserved to lose. Until relatively late in the game, BetaMax tapes weren't long enough to store a normal length movie, with 30 and 60 minute cartridges being the standard. There were no other major differences between the two - the tapes were widely available, the visual quality level was approximately the same (yes, it was), all the urban myths about how BetaMax failed, from quality to Sony clamping down on porn (uh, right, because Sony could do that, y'know, without stopping selling blanks altogether), are just that: myths.

The public made the right choice with VHS. They probably erred in the OS/2 vs Windows 95 war, but the VHS vs BetaMax one was decided logically and reasonably.

Re:Monopoly anybody?

[kimvette]

Only if their next rootkit is cross-platform. If it won't run on Linux, I won't buy it. I don't want to miss out on all the security exploits Sony's windows-using customers enjoy. ;)

Re:Monopoly anybody?

[danimal67]

Why is the word Monopoly tossed around Slashdot like nobody knows what the fuck it means conceptually? Furthermore, has anyone on this site ever realized that there's a big difference between a monopoly and an illegal monopoly?

Who's behind the curtain?

[inphinity]

Now, granted, I don't know much about how standards like these are developed, but shouldn't this sort of far-reaching decision with industry-wide implications not be left up to one entity? Especially one with such a vested interest in its outcome, such as Microsoft?

At the same time, I sort of wonder if maybe it's better to have one source for specifications for a technology, to avoid the kind of industry war that consumed DVD+/-R's development.

Re:Who's behind the curtain?

[garcia]

Now, granted, I don't know much about how standards like these are developed, but shouldn't this sort of far-reaching decision with industry-wide implications not be left up to one entity? Especially one with such a vested interest in its outcome, such as Microsoft?

It isn't up to Microsoft. They are just "making an offer you can't refuse." By using their dominance in the PC market as leverage they are going to attempt to cut Sony out of the "next-gen" console market before they even come out of the gate.

Microsoft fucked up severely by not putting foo-format HD DVD in their console BEFORE its release like Sony apparently wants to do. So, to recover from that folly, they are trying to dominate the market BEFORE Sony can because they know that the 360 will not be able to compete if the PS3 has multiples of storage capacity built in.

Ultimately it will be up to the market but Microsoft will do whatever they can to make sure they have every unfair advantage they can.

Re:Who's behind the curtain?

[maynard]

"[...]"Sony can because they know that the 360 will not be able to compete if the PS3 has multiples of storage capacity built in."

I'm not sure I follow... Why should the extra capacity of Blu-Ray in the PS3 matter much over the standard DVD drive in the 360? We're talking about 25GB vs 8GB... how many games do you expect to consume over 8GB of space? I think Sony is taking a pretty serious risk with using new and unproven technology in the PS3 like this. Add in that it is almost certainly more expensive than the DVD playing in the 360, and you have Sony taking a larger loss per unit than MS. Unless they price it above the 360, in which case the 360 will win by default. *shrug*

Re:Who's behind the curtain?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony is betting that the Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 will inspire a round of media purchasing, much like what people did with DVDs when that format came out. Sony has a huge catalog of titles available. Think of it this way, if you have an HDTV, you can get a next gen console AND hd-movie player all in one.

Microsoft isn't so much backing HD-DVD as much as they are trying to squash Blu-Ray.

Re:Who's behind the curtain?

[maynard]

"Sony is betting that the Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 will inspire a round of media purchasing, much like what people did with DVDs when that format came out."

Oh yeah, that's a given. Although a good counter argument to that marketing plan is that in 2000 everyone had a television to play DVDs with, where as today only a small segment of the population owns an HDTV. Sony's potential market with Blu-Ray in the PS3 is much smaller than the prior situation with DVD support in the PS2.

But still, I argue that Sony is going with unproven technology that will drive up manufacturing costs compared to the 360. And I think MS will almost certainly use price-war tactics to their advantage this time. Between Cell and Blu-Ray, I think Sony may have bit off more than they can chew...

Re:Who's behind the curtain?

[steve_bryan]

By using their dominance in the PC market as leverage they are going to attempt to cut Sony out of the "next-gen" console market before they even come out of the gate.

You expect Vista to be a factor before Sony sells 10 million PS3's next spring and summer? I'll take PS3 in that race any day.

If HD-DVD or Blu-ray wants to be the media of choice on the desktop just make any DRM that gets tacked on as inocuous as possible. I suspect that one of the reasons the iPod was able to get traction in its early incarnations was that Apple didn't do much more than genuflect as their DRM measure. Now Apple sells a huge amount of digital content for the media companies.

Re:Who's behind the curtain?

[CDPatten]

It was and the DVD Consortium/forum was responsible for this stuff. They chose HD-DVD over Blu-Ray long before MS through it's hat in the ring. Sony wanted more control and pretty much said screw that and went with their blu-ray stuff.

But to your point: MS can support HD-DVD in Vista and not Blu-Ray without a monopoly problem. If MS gives kick-backs that is still only a gray area. The problem they got into before was they gave kickbacks (e.g. to dell) for supporting MS software. (e.g. Windows not Linux, only IE not Netscape, etc.) HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are not MS products.

Giving kickbacks to support a standard that MS maintains is better because it has mandatory managed copy for all movies is a bit different then what people are saying. Microsoft has said officially that if Blu-Ray did mandatory managed copy then they would support both standards (we might not believe them, but that is their official stance, and the law looks at that not at Slashdot theories).

Our conspiracy theories about PS3 and MS trying to hurt Sony may be true, but that won't hold up in court. MS can make a much better case saying that they want their users to be able to just copy movies to the computer and Sony wasn't going to guarantee it. MS can argue that this functionality was necessary for the success of Windows Vista (Media Center will be included in all versions of windows vista except corporate).

I know everyone likes to pretend that this is a clear case of MS abusing its power, but I don't think your arguments (at least what I've read so far) would hold any water in court.

Not to mention Weber who works for HP (who now supports HD-DVD for the same MS stated reasons) was just grandstanding. Her statements were only meant to catch some headlines and if you can't see that you are dirking some pretty strong cool aid you should be sharing with the rest of us.

Re:Who's behind the curtain?

[Halfbaked Plan]

If HD-DVD or Blu-ray wants to be the media of choice on the desktop just make any DRM that gets tacked on as inocuous as possible.

The DRM doesn't have to be any less obnoxius and overbearing than it presently is for regular DVD. Which, in spite of the efforts of a lot of hackers, is relatively inpenetrable for the regular joe who buys all those DVDs at WalMart and Best Buy.

No, the annoyance of DRM features won't be a barrier for early adopters. Early adopters by definition are the people who buy stuff because it's new. Emphasis on the word 'buy.' Money defines the market, and if Sony chooses to dump their film libraries cheap, consumers will buy into the format.

Sony takes the risk, however, of squandering all that hoarded up IP by doing so.

Re:Who's behind the curtain?

[Weedlekin]

Only a small sector has HD-capable TVs because there aren't a whole lot of compelling reasons for most people bothering with them. Most broadcast and even satellite / cable TV is standard definition (and what isn't is often only available as an extra paid-for service), DVDs are standard definition, video cameras that ordinary mortals can afford are standard definition, etc., etc.

However, a Playstation with Blu-Ray in it together with some of Sony's content catalogue in HD could give the HD TV market a kick-start, and Sony stand to gain more from that than merely selling Playstations and media -- they do after all manufacturer quite a lot of TVs and other video-related hardware.

Let's play Monopoly

[Matt Perry]

...bundle HD-DVD within Vista... the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives -- in the form "coupons" -- to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD.

Putting that monopoly to use again, I see. Wasn't there supposed to be a court or someone overseeing them to prevent just such abuses?

Re:Let's play Monopoly

[l3prador]

This isn't really so much putting their monopoly to use as much as it is putting their barrels and barrels of cash into play. Heavy handed, but exactly illegal.

Re:Let's play Monopoly

[TheMadcapZ]

Nah, the NSA will just put some wire taps on them, you know, just in case.

Re:Let's play Monopoly

[theStorminMormon]

Why is it insightful to point out that MS is using market share to their advantage? That's what big companies do - just as small companies use their advantages (nimbleness in the market, aura of being elite, etc). The size of a company is just another asset to be used in business maneuvers. Whether or not its monoplistic is another question.

If MS were producing the HD-DVDs and had a monopolistic stake in the media format marketplace, then it would be monopolistic. But MS suplies neither the software nor the hardware for HD-DVDs. They don't have a monopoly on DVDs, DVD players, and they're not going for a monopoly in NG-DVDs or NG-DVD players either. MS is clearly trying to sabotage Sony because they are competing for real-estate in the conosle space - which is scene as a pivotal battle to see who gets to take over the living room. And MS is not a monopoly there either: Sony is the current console king.

Although MS clearly wields a lot of clout in these areas, it's not clear to me that they have monoplistic power (directly or indirectly) in the arena they're trying to influence. Since they don't have monopoly power and don't benefit directly from the outcome it seems to me that this isn't an example of monopolistic practices at all. It may not be nice, but I don't think it's monopolistic or illegal.

-stormin

Re:Let's play Monopoly

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't have to have monopoly power in the arena they are trying to manipulate. What the Sherman act is about is using a monopoly in one area to manipulate another. In this case, it looks suspiciously like MS is using their monopoly in personal computer operating systems to leverage the console and DRM markets where they do not (yet) have a monopoly. If that is the case, they are very clearly in violation of both Sherman and the terms of the previous judgement. Whether or not they make HD-DVDs is irrelevant except that the plaintiff/AG would have to draw the connection between not supporting Blu-Ray and a benefit to MS. One thing that MS has to be wary of is that the PS3 may already do very poorly in NA due to delays and the consequences of Sony's astoundingly stupid media marketing. Recent history suggests that they will try to pin the blame on anyone or anything to avoid being held responsible for being unable to sell overpriced crap and they have the money, people and hubris to take MS on.

Sony Not Toothless

[ackthpt]

It effectively attempts to curb Sony's console dominance by making Blu-Ray next to worthless. This is the sole reason they are doing it and by leveraging their weight against PC makers, etc to attempt to harm their competition in a completely different market is the worst of it all.

Sony certainly isn't toothless. As with the tiny dvd's for the PSP evidenced, they do have a large catalog of music and movie content they can release on their prefered media standard.

The question is, particularly after MS-NBC split, is the door now conveniently open for Microsoft to buy into Time/Warner or Disney/ABC to play the same leverage game? They've got the money.

Re:Sony Not Toothless

[Golias]

The question is, particularly after MS-NBC split, is the door now conveniently open for Microsoft to buy into Time/Warner or Disney/ABC to play the same leverage game? They've got the money.

Considering the recent Google deal with AOL Time/Warner, and the very cozy relationship between Disney/ABC and Apple, I think it will take more than a just few suitcases full of money to get the job done this time. Microsoft will have to offer a long-term business case for why partnering makes sense with a company which has royally shafted pretty much every last partner they ever had.

Isn't this what got them in trouble?

[sallymetharry]

"There is also talk that the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives -- in the form "coupons" -- to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD."

Isn't this the exact type of thing that got them into trouble with the justice department (ie. monopolistic practices)???

Re:Isn't this what got them in trouble?

[sbillard]

ROTFLOLOLBBQ!!!111onetwo
The Justice Department! Did you say Justice Department?

Maybe you haven't been paying attention to current events pal, but the executive branch has shown the judicial branch is just a nuisance (Gitmo, FISA end run) . On top of that, the legislative and executive branches have been BOUGHT.

The Justice Deptartment may as well be the Justice League. They've got about as much clout as a fictional entity of imaginary super heros.

Everything is going to be OK. You don't need balances when all that's left are checks (for deposit only).

Ugh

[commo1]

I'm just as big a fan of HD over Blu-Ray as anyone, but cash incentives and coupons? From Microsoft? (OK, any big software monopoly with holds on the OS market..... wait... never mind). This is not right and this is not fair.

Re:Ugh

[QuietLagoon]

This is not right and this is not fair.

When has either of those mattered to Microsoft?

A recent comment of mine.

Re:Ugh

[The Step Child]

The article mentions "talks" passed down from "industry sources". It's all hearsay; none of it is confirmed. Even if this is all true, I'm sure Microsoft has the resources to tie this up in court for years.

Re:Ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent is a troll.
Why do you mod insightful?
Complete karma whore.

(Haiku)

It's look like another court case

[jrmcferren]

If Microsoft only backs one technology it will be difficult to convince vendors to use another technology when special drivers are required. If Microsoft puts HD-DVD support in Vista and not Blue-Ray, Blue-Ray backers will sue Microsoft. If the opposite is supported the oposite group sues. If they support neither (as in XBOX 360) or both they will not have to deal with court cases. This may delay launch of High-Def support until both formats come avalible, but it would be worth it to Microsoft to avoid another court case.

It's all about the Java

[Call Me Black Cloud]

Blu-Ray players will all come with a Java VM inside, and the interactive content on the discs will be in Java. MS developed the competing environment for interactive content, iHD, with Disney (and Toshiba, I believe). MS has plans to include iHD support with Vista.

So on one side you have Sun and Sony (which supports Blu-Ray) and on the other you have Microsoft and Intel. It's really not surprising the companies have lined up this way. There are feature differences as well that probably come into play, but I wouldn't expect MS to support the format that will ship with the PS3.

Re:It's all about the Java

[Kohath]

Someone said this almost 2 weeks ago in the Blu-ray topic.

Re:It's all about the Java

[Anonymous Monkey]

This puts an interesting spin on the issue. Who is more evil? On the one hand we have Sony and it's DRM CD's, and a Java environment that just might be a tool of DRM and spyware. On the other hand we have Microsoft (aka The Borg), traditionally against anything OSS, a company that might use the new DVD standard to shove around the OSS community...Again, just two maybes, and just speculation, but it could be very bad for us(slashdoters) either way.

Re:It's all about the Java

[hoggoth]

> Who is more evil?

Ouch... you are hurting my simple decision making process. Despite whatever the groupthink de jour is, could it be that any massive corporate entity that makes more money than some nations and crosses international boundaries has the power and incentive to do 'evil' things in it's own self-interest?

Since these entities can shift production and decision making processes between legal and economic jurisdictions at will, they are pretty much immune to any legal or economic attempts to control them.

This state of affairs was probably inevitable once corporations were given similar legal status as human individuals.

Too late now. Sit back and enjoy your mocha-latte.

Re:It's all about the Java

[advocate_one]

aaarghhh... my brain has exploded... all I want to know is, will there be any proper support from the manufacturers for Linux drivers??? or will Microsoft just lean heavily on them...

Re:It's all about the Java

[rajafarian]

Sit back and enjoy your mocha-latte.

From Starbucks, of course, NOT your local coffee roaster/shop.

Re:It's all about the Java

[The Lynxpro]

"So on one side you have Sun and Sony (which supports Blu-Ray) and on the other you have Microsoft and Intel."

Don't forget Matsushita (Panasonic) and Apple are both on the Blu-Ray side... Although it would be in Apple's best interest to put out the feelers to the HD-DVD camp if only to bring Sony back to the table on ditching the Sony Connect online store in favor of a broad-based licensing agreement that would make iTunes the standard for the Playstation3, the PSP, all the Walkmans, and Sony Vaio computers. Not only would Apple get some serious cash, but it would also reduce the chance of an anti-trust complaint that Apple has monopolized the iPod/iTunes combo by opening the platform up to a competitor.

May have chosen a side?

[nonsequitor]

Microsoft has been backing the HD-DVD format from the beginning. In related news Microsoft is considering HD-DVD for the next hardware revision of the XBOX 360. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this isn't news, the anti-competitive practices are news. Isn't this what AMD is sueing Intel about at the moment?

However this is not quite as clear cut as the Intel case since Microsoft manufactures neither HD-DVD Drives nor Media, while Intel actually made the chips for which they were offerring discounts.

IANAL, but is it illegal for Microsoft to leverage the product of a consortium of companies in this manner? Though Microsoft does have a large stake in the technology already, if they tried this with Windows I'm sure they would get smacked down by the courts.

Re:May have chosen a side?

[Anonymous Coward]

Intel is getting sued for telling OEM's that they can't get the rebate if the sell AMD or if they sell more than X quantity of AMD based systems.

Microsoft is not doing even close to the same. Last I recalled I could get money back on mail-in rebates for batteries, MP3 players and all kinds of other things. I don't really see how this is any different than a mail-in rebate. Except that it is the OEM's that are getting it.

Re:May have chosen a side?

[Fallen Kell]

MAn have you been under a rock for the last year or so? The XBOX 360 was origionally DESIGNED for using a HD-DVD drive. But issues came up with its use (things like the standards not being finalized etc.) and since the whole plan of the XBOX 360 release was to beat everyone else to market to try and gain market share would not allow for such a delay, MS scrapped the HD-DVD in the first batch of the console.

Sony is still on track and hasn't been trying to push technology that isn't in existance/ready to market. They are still on track for spring/summer Japan release of PS3 and fall/winter USA release WITH BluRay.

Now I really don't know what format is better. Technically BluRay has the edge in capacity (54GB vs 45GB), which in reality should make it a better standard to use (9GB is a lot of extra space, almost 20% more capacity). But as you can see, since MS chose the HD-DVD standard for their XBOX line, they are now stuck in the situation of fighting against the technologically superior product. The origional reason for HD-DVD vs BluRay was due to manufacturing costs. But those issues have been overcome in the last year, making the two products about the same cost to make.

I hope that someone does sue MS on this. They should not be using their OS market to force a media standard to the public. Even without a court battle, I still feel that BluRay will win the format war. MS hasn't done as well as they were hoping with the international release of the XBox which means that most are waiting on the PS3, which WILL put a BluRay player in every home that gets one, unlike the XBox which did not even initially ship with a HD-DVD player (if it had, we might be seeing a different outcome of this format war, but it wasn't included).

Re:May have chosen a side?

[nonsequitor]

If you read what I said more carefully, I mentioned that Microsoft is planning on adding the HD-DVD to the 360, which is exactly what you said. I really should have edited that comment better, it always seems more coherent before you post.

I probably should have titled that better too, since I was half trolling about the article title, while trying to bring up the real issue at hand. Which would be can the laws against anti-competitve practices be extended to partnered companies rather than the company actually producing the product. After the amount of time/money MS has invested in HD-DVD I highly doubt they will want to license Blu-Ray technology for the 3rd gen XBOX console. So it makes perfect sense Why they are doing this, the real question is "Can they get away with it?"

Re:May have chosen a side?

[octopus72]

Choosing to abandon HD-DVD for time advantage is Microsoft's biggest mistake. They had a chance to set de-facto standard for future HD movies with first player on market and screw up Sony, but they were enough stupid to fuck that up. If they fail to sell more with price-wars scheme at PS3 launch, it's over (Sony wins).

Re:May have chosen a side?

[IntlHarvester]

Not really. Job #1 for Microsoft is to have a successful console. Which disk format wins is way down their priority list.

HD-DVD is about 6 months late now. It probably won't really launch until next christmas, which would have meant that MS would have to just sit on the 360 for nearly a year, completely losing any time-to-market advantage against PS3. It's just not worth it.

Not within Microsoft's power

[wombatmobile]

So what? Microsoft doesn't sell disks, it sells software. Compare this to vendors that sell entertainment content such as films and Microsoft's influence on the space is not significant.

But can't Microsoft dictate terms through choosing to support the reading of data from certain hardware formats only in its software?

Again no. Not if their customers want another format supported. TFA even points out that Microsoft can't control its OEMs behaviour:

Dell Inc., for its part, has no intention of switching its support from Blu-ray, Brian Zucker, a Dell technology strategist who sits on the Blu-Ray DVD committee, told EE Times. "The only reasons we would make a change would be if we saw significant customer demand not to back the format we have been working on," he added.

If Dell wants support for X, its status as the seller of 20% of Microsoft's operating sytems software units gives it enough clout to require Microsoft to provide support.

Or Dell could add its own support.

Re:Not within Microsoft's power

[ScaryFroMan]

But microsoft does use disks. The issue is mainly that Blu Rays most likely won't be able to be used at all in a purely digital system, so no storage on the computer, no streaming to a device. Microsoft at least wants consumers to be able to use thier media freely enough within a household, as with the Media Center thing. If BDs take off, then microsoft's method of action here becomes pretty useless.

Re:Not within Microsoft's power

[pembo13]

I thought their console uses disks and their software comes on disks. No?

Re:Microsoft

[Krach42]

This just in... Windows sucks, and Linux rules...

More info coming soon, on Slashdot: News against Microsoft, and Stuff for Linux.

DOJ Settlement violation

[NullProg]

IANAL but from the article here http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2001/November/01_at_56 9.htm


  The settlement reached today accomplishes this by:

        * creating the opportunity for independent software vendors to develop products that will be competitive with Microsoft's middleware products on a function-by-function basis;
        * giving computer manufacturers the flexibility to contract with competing software developers and place their middleware products on Microsoft's operating system;
        * preventing retaliation against computer manufacturers, software developers, and other industry participants who choose to develop or use competing middleware products; and
        * ensuring full compliance with the proposed Final Judgment and providing for swift resolution of technical disputes.


Microsoft seems to be in violation of resolution two. They are also prohibited from entering exclusive agreements.

Enjoy,

Re:DOJ Settlement violation

[Bogtha]

You missed the most important bit:

The proposed Final Judgment will be in effect for a five year period and may be extended for an additional two-year period if the Court finds that Microsoft has engaged in multiple violations of the proposed Final Judgment.

So as long as Microsoft holds off on the kickbacks until November 2006, they are safe. From Wikipedia:

The currently scheduled release of the full version of Windows Vista is late 2006.

What an amazing coincidence.

Re:DOJ Settlement violation

[obeythefist]

Please read your own post.

* giving computer manufacturers the flexibility to contract with competing software developers and place their middleware products on Microsoft's operating system;

and

Microsoft seems to be in violation of resolution two.

Well, no, they aren't. Computer manufacturers can put as much Blu-Ray in their gear as they want. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD aren't mutually exclusive, in the same way that DVD+R and DVD-R aren't mutually exclusive. MS are just going to give a Windows discount to OEMs for any box with a HD-DVD in it. It could even have a HD-DVD and a Blu-Ray and still get the discount.

It's not like MS telling OEM's they weren't allowed to install Netscape. There's nothing in this that stops Sony from just cutting the cost of Blu-Ray and making it cheaper than a HD-DVD + discount for an OEM. And if Sony can't do that it just makes HD-DVD a more cost effective solution. Wow, manufacturers competing on price for our business. That makes Adam Smith a happy panda.

Also, whose arse did you pull that "exclusive agreements" comment from? Way to go with the FUD without backing it up. MS makes exclusive agreements constantly, it's a part of day to day business.

Re:DOJ Settlement violation

[NullProg]

Also, whose arse did you pull that "exclusive agreements" comment from? Way to go with the FUD without backing it up. MS makes exclusive agreements constantly, it's a part of day to day business.

Do you normally flame people without reading the links that they provide or are you just mentally deficient? Thats ok, let me paste it for you...

Ban on Exclusive Agreements- Microsoft will be prohibited from entering into agreements requiring the exclusive support or development of certain Microsoft software. This will allow software developers and computer manufacturers to contract with Microsoft and still support and develop rival middleware products.
FUD What?

As far as the rest of your post, this isn't Microsoft choosing one format over another. Its Microsoft using discounts to bribe manufacturers into choosing what Mircosoft wants. As a consumer, I want whatever I choose to pick, not what Microsoft gives me.

Enjoy,

Re:DOJ Settlement violation

[obeythefist]

That's kinda weird, since it doesn't actually prevent Microsoft from having exclusive agreements. It just means Microsoft can't force other companies to only deal with Microsoft software. Which, really, is pretty obvious anyway (although in the Browser Wars that's exactly what Microsoft was doing, and they got rightly smacked for it).

In no way whatsoever does that ruling preclude Microsoft from enticing third party companies from using technology made by other third party companies. This kind of thing goes on all the time, although in Microsoft's case it is the monopoly that makes it a bad behaviour. However, as I previously stated, there's nothing to stop Sony from lowering the price of competing Blu-Ray technology to make that a more attractive option. Hence, competition, not monopoly. Microsoft just made HD-DVD cheaper. Is that a crime?

Microsoft's key motive here is not to sell HD-DVD (they gain no profit from a HD-DVD sale!), but to make it harder for Sony to sell Blu-Ray. HD-DVD is the more open source friendly option, and more favourable for fair-use rights. Sony, on the other hand, have already proven to be more viscious and evil towards consumers than Microsoft would ever dream of. Microsoft haven't attempted to rootkit my PC lately. I'm siding with them on this one.

So...

[Sebilrazen]

..does that mean that I'll be reading a book in a few years titled HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray: The format war that wasn't?

So essentially a Microsoft decision on this matter will basically 'help' consumers?

Re:So...

[Kohath]

No. Blu-ray won.

The format war would be over, but Microsoft is keeping the format war alive to sell Windows Mobile and the Xbox 360.

Re:Get over it.

[Yahweh Doesn't Exist]

Microsoft is a monopoly, the court case is over, what they're doing is illegal and it is unethical. It's business. Get over it.

pft

[MisterBone]

Again, Sony already has good usage of blueray, take a look at the broadcast market, their XDCams. By the look of things it seems most people think Sony is only Playstation. It's not. Not by a long shot.

Re:pft

[iluvcapra]

Sony already has good usage of blueray, take a look at the broadcast market, their XDCams

Well, to this day, when I order dupes of projection reels I get them as Beta SP. Of course, they have to be dubbed from there to VHS in order to be played on any VCR any normal person owns.

Professional adoption != consumer adoption.

Of course, many of the studios have come out in favor of blu-Ray (after some dithering), as well as Sony and Apple. It's completely possible that HD-DVD will become the standard on the desktop but Blu-Ray will become the standard in your TV hutch, putting a knife in livingroom convergence but guarenteeing everybody their own happy little fiefdom and making ripping a thing of the past, except for the specially equipped individual who happens to own a soon-to-be-freakish blue-ray computer drive.

Combine

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems that the way you have sorda a hologram for the hd-dvds can be combined with the narrower beam of light technology in blu-ray dvds. Can somebody explain whether this is or isn't the case?

I got the memo....

[digitaldc]

Did you get the memo?

Yeah...it's just that we're supporting HD-DVD in all copies of Vista before they go out now. So I'd really appreciate it if you could just remember to use HD-DVD from now on. That'd be great.

Re:I got the memo....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, uh.. I'm going to go ahead and make sure you get another copy of that memo.

Nothing new to see here...please move along.

[bliSSter138]

Microsoft pulled the same support B.S. with firewire versus USB 2.0 specifications for Windows XP. But does that mean that Windows XP doesn't support USB 2.0 now?

No.

This is simply Redmond looking for cheap PR. Plain and simple - albeit moronic considering anti-trust implications.

Regardless of the standard they say they will be adopting with their vapor-ware OS, MS will ultimately support whatever standard is the most widely used and requested by their users and their vendors.

Re:Nothing new to see here...please move along.

[rajafarian]

MS will ultimately support whatever standard is the most widely used and requested by their users and their vendors.

Hey, I thought that as a monopoly they don't care what their users and vendors want.

Wrong

[the computer guy nex]

"Microsoft is considering HD-DVD for the next hardware revision of the XBOX 360"

Microsoft has said no to HD-DVD inside the 360.

Reason? Games with hi-res textures have been available for under 9 gigs for awhile now on a PC. No game for this console will require the ~45gig capacity.

Microsoft is pro HD-DVD due to the DRM located within Blu-Ray. This is one isntance where we should take sides with the monopoly. HD-DVD's are the better solution for the customer.

Re:Wrong

[Surt]

Note that it's a self fulfilling prophecy: because no HD-DVD will be available, no one is going to make a game with 45 gigs of textures. Whereas they certainly would if HD-DVD was shipped standard.

Re:Wrong

[Troed]

Please explain the DRM differences between HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

Oh. Really?

That's what I thought as well.

(PS: You're wrong about how much room games will require in the next 4-5 years btw)

Re:Wrong

[bliSSter138]

If you for one second think that Microsoft (let that name rattle in your head for a second before you continue reading), is being altrustic here and has non-DRM consumers' best interests in mind, then you've been under the desk for a bit too long. MS has their own set of plans for DRM; if you haven't been keeping up take a quick look at any recent iteration of Windows Media Player.

I guarantee the only reason that MS isn't backing Blu-Ray, if it has anything to do with DRM, is because Sony or whomever isn't letting them in on the back-end of their technology.

If Redmond is supporting it, HD-DVD will have DRM to some degree just as Blu-Ray does.

Re:Wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you want HD-DVD on your Mac or Linux, good luck.

Re:Wrong

[c_forq]

no one is going to make a game with 45 gigs of textures

Read the parent again. He talked about computer games (which on the high end are always more demanding and better looking then consoles so far) have yet to use that much texture data. Game companies today could use that much texture data for computer games, the only limit is hard drive size. But that amount of data has yet to even be considered for use, let alone usage reach near that amount.

Re:Wrong

[c_forq]

Please explain the DRM differences between HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

The main differance that is for sure (I don't think the BR call home thing is for sure) is that HD-DVD will let you stream content throughout your house, while Bluray limits it to one player, one screen, one location.

Re:Wrong

[Jugalator]

Note that it's a self fulfilling prophecy: because no HD-DVD will be available, no one is going to make a game with 45 gigs of textures. Whereas they certainly would if HD-DVD was shipped standard.

Are you sure? I mean, is the Xbox hardware even able to use that well? Graphics card and RAM memory limitations, etc. If this puts an upper cap on detail levels on the loaded textures, all that remains is using all that storage for textures in today's resolutions, but instead having tons of textures. But in that case, will the games even be far reaching enough to use that? What about game development costs to make games using over 5 times as many textures as today?

I think it's more about hardware limitations, and have an easier time believing 45 GB textures coming to use on future consoles than on the Xbox 360.

Re:Wrong

[thaerin]

Microsoft is pro HD-DVD due to the DRM located within Blu-Ray. This is one isntance where we should take sides with the monopoly. HD-DVD's are the better solution for the customer.
How is HD-DVD a better solution for the customer? In case you haven't read up on the specs they include a little thing called AACS (Advanced Access Content System). Essentially they hand out keys and content certificates to the media folks and device keys to the hardware folks. Without both you're not watching anything. This means that they can indiscriminately deny any manufacturer a key if the device provides things they (Music and Movie industry, Microsoft, etc.) do not like (i.e. DivX, XviD, or MP3 playback, etc.) irreguardless of consumer demand. Even though HD-DVD supposedly does away with Region Encoding, they can in essense still implement a similar system. All they simply need do is assign a particular set of codes to different areas of the world and have only those codes work with certain hardware keys from the same said region. Yeah, all this is so much better for the consumer. 1 step forward, 2 steps back ...

Re:Wrong

[Surt]

Please read the parent again, the parent claims:

No game for this console will require the ~45gig capacity.

And implies that the reason is not media capacity, which I claim is wrong.

I believe he is right that no game will require the 45 gig capacity. Since that would now mean shipping on 5 dvds. But having worked on real game titles, I can tell you that designers would absolutely love to be able to ship with that much content, and not have to live with the squeezing and compression they now do.

Re:Wrong

[Surt]

Game devs are already way past this. Often by the time a game ships, they'll have cut 30 or 40 gig of textures to reduce the number of dvds they ship on. They also ship lower quality textures rather than full detail textures not because the system couldn't render them, but because it would blow up the storage requirements. Often game devs have source art at 4 or 16x the resolution that eventually ships, which could be rendered just fine by the hardware but can't fit in the media. Media is a major limitation for game quality.

Re:Wrong

[Ucklak]

Exactly. It also explains why there isn't a compatible Windows Media Player for any other Operating System other than Windows.
If Microsoft were to release a Media Player that is EXACTLY the same across all Operating Systems, then I _might_ believe that they may have our best interests at heart.

But, they don't and they continue to stifle technological growth.

Re:Wrong

[wyldeone]

Microsoft is pro HD-DVD due to the DRM located within Blu-Ray. This is one isntance where we should take sides with the monopoly. HD-DVD's are the better solution for the customer.

You are very confused. I'm pretty sure Microsoft's decision has nothing to do with DRM, based on the fact that both format use the same DRM, the AACS (Advanced Access Content System.) Consumers lose with either one, but at least with blueray we get superior technology.

Re:Wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

HD-DVD: AACS.
Bluray: AACS, plus a revocation layer. (Yay, even more lockouts.)

Both subject to change because of ongoing arguments. Both probably will not allow HD playback unless HDCP-protected HDMI is used; what all the actual restrictions are, is up to the disc masterer. Naturally, the studios will "play it safe" in both cases, and go straight for stupidly restrictive, obnoxious DRM that just won't play right in the wild (for example, because you didn't have HDCP-protected HDMI straight to an authorised HDTV, but bought your HDTV earlier this year, foolishly assuming component video was obviously OK because you've never even seen anything that used HDMI, and it's HD already isn't it?).

AACS actually runs a bytecode to handle the restrictions, decryption and (probably) watermarking - it's hard to crack directly as a result (so endpoint attacks will be used instead, which it's basically powerless against), harder than CSS and HDCP - but, of course, possible (and a very interesting problem if you attacked it head-on, with implications in the reverse-engineering field as a whole, particularly malware analysis).

Frankly, I don't care. I'm not interested in the video format, someone will crack it anyway. I just want them to stop arguing about the formats and bring them to market, because I want the high capacity of Bluray-writable discs ASAP so I don't have to juggle so many DVD-Rs.

Whatever they agree on with the video part obviously won't meet anyone's needs as a consumer (Sony on one side, MS on the other? Damned either way), but the studios' paranoia instead... and could well flop horribly like DIVX did, until the DRM is loosened by the inevitable sub-$150 DVD/HD-DVD/Bluray combination players from China. (You know they'll happen.)

Re:Wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is pro HD-DVD due to the DRM located within Blu-Ray. This is one isntance where we should take sides with the monopoly. HD-DVD's are the better solution for the customer.

Oh, now I see it. Supporting Microsoft in this case is OK as long as they make some illegal actions against something you don't like. But if the tables are turned, it's wrong, BAD M$!!!!11 Right?

Your comment pretty much sums up the entire Slashdot community. As long as everyone does what YOU think is right, even if it means doing it with (semi-)illegal actions, everything is fine and you all love that company in that moment.

Re:Wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure they would. Just make it 3 discs. That's the way it's traditionally been done.

Re:Wrong

[StillAnonymous]

How can you say he's wrong about the amount of space games will need?

When games first came out on CD, in what? 1993 for 7th Guest? They were 2 CDs. What are they now? 2-3 CDs.

Compression technology keeps getting better. If in a few years from now all textures are calculated mathematically instead of being stored as bitmaps, there's a HUGE savings and you could see amazing next-generation games that fit in the space on one CD, and only because the audio takes up so much room.

Re:Wrong

[obeythefist]

It does, but it's well known that with HD-DVD you keep more of your fair use rights than you do with Blu-Ray. Sony won't allow people to stream data from a Blu-Ray over a network, for instance. Microsoft are fighting that because they want the home network to be a reality, it lets them sell more OS product.

Stuff that matters: Microsoft is the lesser of two evils on this one. The Microsoft model is more open source friendly, heck, at least you can emulate Windows from an open source OS and interoperate with the new schema. Sony on the other hand despises the whole PC arena (yes I know they make laptops), because it's not their territory and so they're trying very hard to keep Blu-Ray from being controlled in this space by anyone but themselves.

Re:Wrong

[Surt]

True enough, though to make that level of content you've reached either 5 or 10 discs depending on what kind of media you want to pay for, and that is a big cost to content producers. Plus on the platform, you then have to contend with the fact that your media holder (box, whatever) is now of non-standard size, and may not be carried by some venues, or put in an unusual area, which can cost you sales. All in all, game producers would love to have a small form factor huge capacity media to ship their content on.

Re:Wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

You are aware that HD-DVD and Blue-Ray are using *** THE EXACT SAME DRM******** right?

Well now you are you retarded moron, so you can stop posted lies every 10 minutes all over the internet you MS xbox fanboy fuck.

Re:Wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, both formats use lasers, therefore they're the same!

Blueray's DRM implementation is more restrictive, particularly with respect to managed copies, numbnuts. Try to keep up.

Who builds consumer players?

[SuperKendall]

Microsoft will have no control over the final result, as they are neither the company that makes the discs consumers buy nor the company that makes the devices people will play the majority of discs on.

If Microsoft were really serious about HD-DVD they would have delay the 360 launch to include it. From where they sit now the only thing they can do is savage thier own marketshare with a dual console system with some HD-DVD units and some not.

The war is already over since people will have millions of players by way of PS3 - who will then naturally proceed to buy discs for said players since they have them, and so more discs will be made since more people are buying them in that format.

Welcome to Betaville Microsoft - population you.

thank god for competition

[bobcatdunn]

The upside is this competition will force the Blu-Ray folks to re-consider DRM and licensing fees. It's all reminiscent of SACD vs. DVD Audio: Who cares? Physical media is so 20th century...

Re:thank god for competition

[Kohath]

Physical media is so 20th century

Does your Internet connection have the bandwidth to stream HD video in real time?

Mine doesn't.

Re:thank god for competition

[basilisk12]

Even with widespread fiber, it'll take days to grab 25 gig HD movie files. We're stuck with physical media for a while longer.

Re:thank god for competition

[JWW]

Does your Internet connection have the bandwidth to stream HD video in real time?

Not in the United States for the foreseeable future... But other places are going to love it.

Re:thank god for competition

[forkazoo]

Does your Internet connection have the bandwidth to stream HD video in real time?

Mine has the bandwidth to download an hour's worth of HD to watch tomorrow night. Really, that's good enough for a lot of people. It's good enough for me. Many folks keep insisting that all people always want to watch what's on TV *right now.* Sure, there are some who consider that to be the number one feature. Others are completely fine with queuing up a bunch of downloads, and having a collection of other shows already downloaded and ready to watch. This is basically the exact same model as Tivo. As long as I can start watching *something* right now, and I can watch it from the beginning, on my schedule, without worrying about being interrupted because I can pause it... Well, for many people, that trumps the inconvenience of having to wait until tomorrow to watch "tonight's" program. Just watch yesterday's program and be at peace. I'm doing stuff tonight, so I'll probably start a download tonight when I get home, and I'll have it ready for me to watch tomorrow. No instant-real time streaming needed, and I'll be completely sated for my media fix. (I need to ind out what happens next in Bleach!)

Re:thank god for competition

[Anonymous Coward]

The truth is while you and I might care about HD quality, the majority of people simply don't. Witness the success of mediocre-quality MP3s vs. SACD. It's all about content and convenience, not quality.

Re:thank god for competition

[6*7]

BS, do the math: it takes somewhere near 6 hours with lowly 10mbit download. This can almost be accomplished on a simple ADSL line for most people.

But the main problem is not your individual download speed, but the bandwidth the distributor needs to supply this to "a couple" of users. A bittorrent like setup might be the solution and the sacrfice of the users upload bandwidth.

Re:thank god for competition

[Maxo-Texas]

Sure no problem in divx6 (180mb to 200mb!). A bit of a problem in divx5 (300mb to 400mb)

Best HD episode download I've seen was 23 minutes-- peaked at 487k per second. It helps that shows are up to almost 20 minutes of commercials so you are not really getting an "hour" of video.

There are now inexpensive divx6 players so folks don't even have to transcode it to watch it on their big screen TVs. I like the more expensive portable Toshiba player with an 8" screen.

Re:thank god for competition

[bizard]

However, if you do have the bandwidth to download *right now* it opens up different viewing models than are available to you currently. I have been downloading 45 minute television episodes in 2-10 minutes (depending on the nightly net traffic). That means that I don't have to know what I want to do tomorrow, I can just download and watch. And if I end up with a show that happens to be a two-parter and I don't want to wait until tomorrow to see the conclusion (happened the other night) I can download the next episode while I get up to get a snack.

Re:thank god for competition

[doubledoh]

And of course that fails to acknowledge that these "25 gig" movies are going to be compressed with the latest comprssion algorithm into 4.3 gigs or less so we can fit them on standard single layer dvds. Hell, I download 42 minutes of HDTV rips with 5.1 sound and it comes in at a nice 699 MB--just perfect for a plain ol CD and it looks GREAT. A movie with the same quality is only 2 or 3 times as long...so it's obvious that the downloads won't be as massive as the industry hopes they will be. It will only take ONE person to rip each new HDDVD/bluray disc even if it has to be through an analog hole, and the rest, will be history.

Re:thank god for competition

[Kjella]

And of course that fails to acknowledge that these "25 gig" movies are going to be compressed with the latest comprssion algorithm into 4.3 gigs or less so we can fit them on standard single layer dvds.

Actually, the printed discs will be 50GB. If you take the ratios 50/9GB (original) and 4.3/0.7GB (copy), a single-layer should still give 1CD x264-quality rip *in HDTV*. If you don't know x264, it's a better codec than XviD and playable on all HD DVD / Blu-ray players. In short, unless you have a native 1920x1080 display and very good attention to detail, you won't notice.

Everyone needs to just relax!

[gasmonso]

Microsoft is looking at this issue like any other. Sure they may back one or the other but it's not that big of a deal. No matter what format they decide to "support", it's just a driver. If they go with HD-DVD, that means they'll just include that driver on the OS. Who cares?!?! If you buy a Blu-Ray drive, it'll ship with a driver anyways.

The real concern here is what the movie industry will support and put movies on. And of course DRM is the other big issue. But no matter who the "winner" is, it won't matter for the PC anyways as it will support both.

http://religiousfreaks.com/

Re:Everyone needs to just relax!

[drinkypoo]

Microsoft will not leave Blu-Ray drivers out of the OS' driver collection if Blu-Ray drives all support the same interface, as ATAPI drives do. Even if they don't, they will end up with drivers from vendors with whom they have a driver agreement. Which is pretty much everyone big.

Re:Everyone needs to just relax!

[Dr. Spork]

Exactly right, thank you!

Sony will still be first to market

[RouterSlayer]

However, Sony will still be first to market with Blu-Ray,
included in the PS3, several months before Microsofts crap goes to market, and probably before all the DRM crap gets settled too...

So, imagine this - Sony ships the PS3 with Blu-Ray. A drive that doesn't have the ratified DRM bullshit.

All this content and stuff comes out for PS3, all on Blu-Ray.
Sony starts (or already) on movies shipping on Blu-Ray disks too.

And of course Sun is behind them too, and I can imagine AMD being part of this group. So all the AMD backers, and Sun supporters and Sony supports all start supporting and shipping Blu-Ray content.

And.... any computer techie worth his salt will be getting a blu-ray drive for their machines, and media. All 3rd party PS3 developers doing work on Blu-ray as well...

All MONTHS before M$ and their ilk get to market, and likely before the DRM crap is settled. So it means that M$'s bolstering really amounts to squat.

Vista only supports HD? Who cares! Run something else. PS3 is Linux. get with the program. Users can stick with XP Pro, or whatever, and probably have no problems with blu-ray at all.

First to market = First to rule! Sony will win, they'll be out there, established, and it'll be far far too late for M$ to do anything.

M$ is just trying to pre-empt the launch, but too bad, so sad. It wont help.

Watch as it unfolds, blu-ray will be everywhere.

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[IvyKing]

And of course Sun is behind them too

Does that mean that cdrw will be updated to support the Blu-Ray drives?

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[maynard]

"So, imagine this - Sony ships the PS3 with Blu-Ray. A drive that doesn't have the ratified DRM bullshit."

This seems a highly unlikely outcome... just say'n!

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[Surye]

First to market = First to rule!

Hahaha, dreamcast.

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[sethadam1]

Wait a second! We're BUYING from Sony again? I thought everyone was going to stay away from the PS3 in the first place??

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[lucifig]

Yeah, it worked with them for Betamax!

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[drinkypoo]

Vista only supports HD? Who cares! Run something else. PS3 is Linux. get with the program. Users can stick with XP Pro, or whatever, and probably have no problems with blu-ray at all.

There is no way in hell that Windows will not support Blu-Ray. That is just ignorant. It will happen one way or another, because customers want to use it and Microsoft wants customers. Microsoft just wants to get enough momentum behind their format of choice that it has a chance. And, I sincerely hope it works out, because I am not in favor of anything with Java in it until the JVM and the class library BOTH get opened up completely. The DRM thing is odious enough.

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[HikingStick]

First to market does not always predict the winner. Quite often, it is the first to market who eats all of the costs associated with breaking into a new niche while the competition waits to pounce as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

Of course, in this situation, since we're talking about format standards, it is not a clean comparison, but just because Sony will hit the market first does not mean it will win the day.

As DRM issues clamp down against fair use, I believe consumers will begin to question new technologies before they adopt them. I believe we've only seen the beginning of the DRM civil war that is brewing. I have no desire to replace my DVD collection with either format, no matter how much better the quality may be. So, for consumers, backwards compatibility is a must (and a given in this discussion).

Going forward, the real innovators will find a way to support both formats in a single device, or will develop an even newer standard that will leave both of these in the dust. At the end of the day, Blu-Ray and HDDVD will both run on Wintel boxes, even if one is not the preferred hardware of Redmond. It was not long ago when you had to run third party drive overlay software just to access hard disks that were bigger than MS-DOS could recognize. The software will make these devices available regardless of the platform. To the intelligent consumer, it comes down to an examination of the cost and the features. To the typical non-technical consumers (digiots), it will come down to whatever device the sales guy at [INSERT BIG BOX STORE NAME HERE] puts in their shopping carts.

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[SpinJaunt]

First to market = First to rule!

Really?.. look at Nintendo with N64 and Sega with Saturn followed by Dreamcast. Also Sony with Betamax (1972) vs VHS (1976). and and and, the whole DVD+ and DVD- debacle.

Just a little bit of history repeating, and I --the consumer-- stand to gain.

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[Anonymous Coward]

Backward compatibility will be there in that Blu-Ray players will play standard DVD movies in addition to the new HD content. (duh!) And play standard audio CDs. Maybe even play DVD-A. (SACD requires a different type of DAC but as most high quality audio DACs support PCM and bitstream mode these days, who knows.)

The other side of this is the content providers. Everything I have read suggests the majority of studios are backing Blu-Ray. This really does look like Microsoft (with Intel, Toshiba and Disney) vs everyone else.

Lets recall the distant past: Microsoft Windows includes a "Media Player" but it doesn't play DVD movies as standard. (WTF?) Presumably such that Microsoft could penny pinch and avoid paying royalties to the MPEG LA. Talk about not seeing the forest from the trees. (MPEG actually offers a lifetime paid up fee for those who do huge volume. If Apple can afford to do this and ship DVD playback standard in their OS, Microsoft shouldn't loose sleep over it.)

And Disney was one of the few studios to back a "pay per view" DVD format called DIVX. Guess what? (I got a fever and the only prescription is more cow bell...) DIVX failed horribly, standard DVD took over and Disney ultimately had to release their content on the established format.

It looks like the same thing is about to play out all over again. Microsoft and Disney are on the wrong side of this one. The PS3 will provide an installed base of players and likely will prove the affordable entry point for those who are mainly interested in movie content. (If someone is going to invested the money in a good HD display they won't be loosing any sleep over $400 to get an HD movie player.) It really does seem that Blu-Ray is going to win this one.

Bring on the 1080p content on wide aspect LCDs. Better yet, someone hurry up and build an affordable 1080 capable projector already! :)

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[Trogre]

And in your crusade against Sony, do you realise that you're effectively handing Microsoft the game console market on a silver platter?

What interesting times we live in.

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[sethadam1]

Um... I don't have an agenda that requires me to start Microsoft down a peg in this game. Sony is a dispicable company in my eyes right now. Microsoft deserves more business, as they have spent this year doing as much right as they can have done. Sony deserves jail time.

Microsoft has done a lot of bad things in the past, but that doesn't mean I have some unending blind crusade against them. Sony is doing a lot of bad things NOW, and smart consumers SHOULD avoid the PS3.

For the record, I am typing this from OS X and I own a PS2. Please don't think I'm some crazy Microsoft fanboy.

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[Hamsterdan]

"First to market = First to rule! Sony will win, they'll be out there, established, and it'll be far far too late for M$ to do anything." BETA was there first, besides, Minidiscs and Memory Sticks are pretty much dead too. So no, Blu-ray won't stay...

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[Anonymous Coward]

When faced with two evils, choose the lesser.

If you absolutely must have a third-generation console that is Microsoft OR Sony (ie. Nintendo just won't cut it), then go for the one who has the least market share - that's Microsoft in this round.

Simple solution that ensures the most even competition, which generally means the corporations fighting amongst themselves, and hopefully not fighting the customers as much.
(Or you could go for neither, or Nintendo, or just decide that as one person whatever you do has absolutely no significant effect on the world, so just do what you want. It's a personal choice ;)

Re:Sony will still be first to market

[IntlHarvester]

Microsoft Windows includes a "Media Player" but it doesn't play DVD movies as standard. (WTF?) Presumably such that Microsoft could penny pinch and avoid paying royalties to the MPEG LA. Talk about not seeing the forest from the trees. (MPEG actually offers a lifetime paid up fee for those who do huge volume. If Apple can afford to do this and ship DVD playback standard in their OS, Microsoft shouldn't loose sleep over it.

According to Microsoft, the MPEG royalties would amount to hundreds of millions of dollars if XP included DVD support. And a large portion of that would be wasted, because still to this day most business PCs don't ship with DVD drives.

The approach makes sense -- build the MPEG royalty into the OEM price of the PC hardware, not the OS. In fact this is exactly what Apple does ... if they ever licensed their OS to third parties, it would certainly not include 'free' DVD support.

not microsoft...

[technogogo]

... the porn industry will decide. Same as last time.

Re:not microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you think those mafia-types running the porno industry are sofiticated enough to to tell which is the better technology you have another thing cuming.

Re:not microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

... the porn industry will decide. Same as last time.

The porn industry is already releasing movies in HD-DVD.

Re:not microsoft...

[MBGMorden]

They tend to adapt to newer technologies a lot quicker. A lot of the more "mainstream" stuff is already moving off of DVD's and towards content delivered from subscription websites (and MOST, but not all, of it is DRM-free).

Your Sig...

[d3ac0n]

It's FUBAR, not foobar. FUBAR is an acronym that stands for "F'ed Up Beyond All Recognition". Besides that, it's funnier if you spell it right. (and yes, I intentionally abbreviated the 'F' word.)

Sorry, that was just bugging me.

Re:Your Sig...

[Anonymous Coward]

'foobar' spelling is intentional -- it's commonly associated with programming as far back as the 60's.

Re:Your Sig...

[Anonymous Coward]

Go read the New Hacker's Dictionary.

Re:Your Sig...

[edflyerssn007]

FUBAR comes from the 1940's. I once read it came from WWII air forces refering to shot down aircraft, but I can't remember the reference.

Re:Your Sig...

[Surt]

Actually, for a computer scientist, foobar would be the preferred spelling. For a variety of other information supporting foobar over/in addition to fubar see the following:

http://www.google.com/search?q=foobar+origin&start =0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozi lla:en-US:official
http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/99/02/12/1433221.s html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=100508 2400010

Re:Your Sig...

[drinkypoo]

Actually, as far as I can tell, computer scientists (and other programmers) started using foo just because fu is both too overloaded, and too short. I have yet to meet a programmer who doesn't know what FUBAR is. Spelling it "foobar" is a complete bastardization. It doesn't mean anything!

Re:Your Sig...

[SageMusings]

I suppose you do not read many UNIX programming texts, do you?

Re:Your Sig...

[Macdude]

<nitpick> It's FUBAR, not foobar. FUBAR is an acronym that stands for "F'ed Up Beyond All Recognition". Besides that, it's funnier if you spell it right. (and yes, I intentionally abbreviated the 'F' word.)</nitpick>

<nitpick^^2>That should be "Fucked Up Beyond All Repair". (and yes I have the balls to actually swear when I swear.)</nitpick^^2>

Re:Your Sig...

[stanmann]

I know K&R use Foo and Bar. I think I've seen it in pascal references as well.

Re:Your Sig...

[Surt]

Please feel free to read, if you can, any of the links I provided documenting the history of foobar. I think it will adequately explain my post.

Re:Your Sig...

[Anonymous Coward]

>>and yes I have the balls to actually swear when I swear

Wow it sure takes a lot of balls to do that!

Re:Your Sig...

[Scarletdown]

That should be "Fucked Up Beyond All Repair". (and yes I have the balls to actually swear when I swear.)

Ooooohhhh!!! I'm telling on you. You said the "Fuck" word. :D

Re:Your Sig...

[Nykon]

"That should be "Fucked Up Beyond All Repair".

Wikipedia says you are both right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar

Re:Your Sig...

[Anonymous Coward]

WP is rwong; it's "Reapiar", ans olnt "repira".

So much momentum. Wonder if DIVX can happen again.

[Elwood P Dowd]

When DIVX was crushed it felt like a giant victory. But DIVX only had one company behind it. This time the draconian DRM will have the entire tech industry behind it. And people won't be buying self-destructing media.

I think we're fucked.

If people actually stick with their DVD drives and let HD-DVD and BluRay both die on the vine, maybe some tech companies will do the right thing. But it's an extremely long shot.

Err

[Anonymous Coward]

How is Sony's sale of the PS3 at a loss with a blu-ray drive, which will undoubtedly cost in the $300USD or more range at launch on the PC, different than an incentives program from Microsoft for a hd dvd drive in a computer which can also accept a blu-ray drive anyway.

so be it.

[recharged95]

If kick-backs are a 'necessary evil' then all the bickering will not stop the practice.

I say let the mainstream PC vendors flock to Vista. I think someone needs to create a Blu-Ray framework/API for Linux (hmm, it's almost there?). Then people will need to decide:

Free, secure, better OS + Blu-Ray (higher capacity & quality)

or

Bloated, expensive OS + HD-DVD (lower capacity and quality).

(Then again getting HD-DVD working on Linux maybe a nil issue). So far HD-DVD only has the vendor production price going for it. Considering there's no guarantee the savings will be passed onto the customer. Also, look at the target enduser: PC users(laptops-mainly biz travelers) or home theater users (which will want a non-PC or media center). I say the PC folks will want IPTV, such that in the end, Blu-Ray wins in the console/media center environment.

And Yes, it's all a PS3 vs. Xbox360 issue--truly an example of stifling innovation.

Re:so be it.

[recharged95]

Also, "in Microsoft's view, next-generation consumer devices will no longer be simply connected to one-way broadcast or removable media"

But as one person told me, the only way you're going to get 50GB capacity for $0.99 is CD-media. Broadband will never match the capacity per cost (along with it's [free] mobility aspects) of physical media for a long time.

Re:so be it.

[Anonymous Coward]

You DO realise you're complaining about a "bloated" OS being on a smaller capacity format, right?

Moron.

Re:so be it.

[Chandon Seldon]

I get a theoretical ~225 gigs per dollar with my broadband connection. I don't actually manage to use all of it, but that's mid range american DSL line. If I had even Verizon FIOS, I'd manage to outdo 50gigs/dollar easy.

Microsoft overestimates OS support importance

[DumbSwede]

Despite its deep pockets I think Mircosoft's efforts will be in vain.

Computers with HD DVD or Blu-Ray will be slow in being adopted compared to stand alone players for HDTV sets.

Consumers will not compare HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on whether they are compatible with some future computer purchase, only on stand-alone player price, availability of new release movies, and blank media price.

HD-DVD manufactures will have a tough time getting below the $400-$500 entry window that the the PS3 probably represents.

Microsoft probably would like to see DRM issues delay Blu-Ray beyond the expected release date for the PS3 to further delay the PS3 as well and entrench the X-Box 360. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander however; any DRM issues will likely further delay HD-DVD as well. The PS3 will be poised for instance release once DRM is worked out to reap the reward of pent up demand for physical HDTV distribution media.

Someone please break it down for me

[breckinshire]

As someone who has not at all been following the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray battle, I have a few questions about this. Why does it matter? What are the real differences between the two? Is it like Betamax vs. VHS, where Betamax was technically superior but lost out due to the other side's clever marketing?

Re:Someone please break it down for me

[7Prime]

Everyone forgets the BIGGEST reason why BetaMax failed: STORAGE CAPACITY. It's simple: VHS has the ability to hold well over 2 hours of video, BetaMax can hold 90mins MAXIMUM: one medium is more than a feature length film, one is less. Don't get me wrong, for quality, BetaMax is far superior, the TV station where I work, uses BetaCAM exclusively, I don't think they even own a VHS recorder. But when it came time for the film industry to decide whether to put E.T. on one tape or two, it's pretty obvious why they chose to get behind VHS instead.

Here are some other obvious media wins:

CD vs. Minidisc - MiniDisc comes out quite a bit after CDs are already beginning to be entrenched, they hold less data (bad for use as computer media), use shoddy (at the time) audio compression, and their ingrained ability to be re-written worries the recording industry.

MP3 vs. Ogg - MP3s come out well before Ogg, become a household name (thanks to Metallica and a bunch of silly, high profile lawsuits), and require MUCH less processing power (ie: don't sap battery life on portable media players). Ogg Vorbis, though sounding better, has one of the dumbest sounding names on the face of the planet (a name can make or break a product). Let's think about this: "ogg", for me, conjures up thoughts of cavement beating their chests and yelling "Ooog, Ogg, Bunga!". "Vorbis" is the name of an evil, sadistic cleric from a Terry Prachet novel. In the end, strangely enough, it's AAC that wins the day.

In this case, it's reversed. Blu-Ray is quite a bit higher capacity, and is at least capable of being superior in EVERY way (that is, unless Microsoft is successful in sabotaging it's usability) to HD-DVD.

I know some people are going to laugh, but Blu-Ray has one other thing going for it: a catchy name. This WILL make a huge difference, and may be even big enough to be a deciding factor. "HD-DVD" is clunky to say, and will sound, to most consumers, like a new media based on old technology (think "Double Density 3.5" disks). If people are going to spend their money on upgrading their media, they're going to want to feel like they're actually really getting something new out of it. Blu-Ray is a sexy name, it's not inherently "techy", and will fit right in to the mainstream, it's the kind of name people will WANT to use in day-to-day conversation, because it just sounds cool. Word of mouth is extremely important. When I hear the worlds "Blue Ray" I think of some futuristic sci-fi laser that, like, kills people, or at the very least, will read my mind.

I seriously think the name alone could have a huge impact.

Re:Someone please break it down for me

[breckinshire]

Very informative, thank you. If I had points I would mod it up.

Re:Someone please break it down for me

[MrP-(at work)]

Here's the only difference I care about:

HD-DVD becomes the standard, I buy movies in HD-DVD and play them on my 1999 Toshiba DVD player until someday I decide to buy an HD-DVD player and wow all the HD-DVDs I bought are like new again because now I'll have access to the HD parts

Blu-Ray becomes the standard, I have to buy a Blu-Ray player to play anything.

HD-DVD discs will contain the HD data but they will also contain the non HD dvd which older players will still read as a normal DVD, so no one is forced to upgrade hardware. They can buy the HD-DVD discs but no new hardware is needed. But once you do decide to get new hardware, youll already have the HD-DVDs that you were buying already.

I have no plans on buying new hardware, I have a huge DVD collection and I want complete backwards compatibility dammit! (and playing my old dvds on a bluray player isnt backwards compatible, i want to continue buying movies in whatever format and not have to buy new hardware)

Re:Someone please break it down for me

[Foerstner]

HD-DVD discs will contain the HD data but they will also contain the non HD dvd which older players will still read as a normal DVD, so no one is forced to upgrade hardware.

This is not necessarily true. HD-DVD can support dual-sided (SD on one side, HD on the obverse) discs, but this is not inherent in the spec (and would significantly increase the cost of producing a disc, which is supposedly the big advantage of HD-DVD over BluRay.)

One Blu-Ray manufacturer also developed a hybrid BluRay disc that will have another layer (same side) playable on SD players. So far, this is not in the BluRay spec, either.

I have a huge DVD collection and I want complete backwards compatibility dammit! (and playing my old dvds on a bluray player isnt backwards compatible, i want to continue buying movies in whatever format and not have to buy new hardware)

The BluRay backers "recommend" that all BluRay players be made backward-compatible with ordinary DVDs. The products available so far (in Japan) are DVD-compatible.

Re:Someone please break it down for me

[jonhorvath]

Or all of us could be wasting our time with this subject. Both formats could be as relevant as SVHS. I don't think either format is needed. I'm quite happy with DVD. Or I could be getting old and content

Re:Get over it.

[bob2cam]

Sorry, ya' can't have it both ways. Every tech media outlet is full of stories about the gains Linux is making, how Linux on the Desktop is spreading all over..Munich, Vienna, Macedonia, maybe even Massachusetts! how Firefox is closing in on 15% percent market share. If the stories are true, then the monopoly is over, the market has spoken. Now it's time for Open Source and Linux to stop the whining, get off its proverbial arse and compete.

hmm

[Danzigism]

Offering cash incentives?? Coupons??

isn't that bribery?? i'm just curious to know wether or not Microsoft could get in trouble for that considering that they are putting Blu-Ray in danger.. even though, i personally think the HD-DVD will be better performance wise any way, I still think they deserve a fair chance.. let em die in honor..

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

yes it is bribery.

however bribery is in itself a crime... in this case anti trust implications exist, but the bribery itself isnt the major act.

Re:hmm

[gujo-odori]

IANAL, but no, it's not bribery. An example of bribery would be if Microsoft offered direct cash payments to the decision makers at various partners to induce them to choose HD-DVD over Blu-Ray. Bribery is generally illegal and is a violation of company policy even in places where it's not illegal.

Cash incentives and coupons are ways of providing an effective discount or reduction in cost of the technology, the same as if I buy something at Fry's that has a rebate. Sometimes the rebates are so large they make the item free, or nearly so. That is not bribery, even if the rebate it not available at other retailers, it's just a discount. Is it an incentive to get me to shop at Fry's instead of Best Buy? Sure, but it's not a bribe. At least not unless you consider putting items on sale, or factory cash-back incentives on new cars, to also be bribery. A rebate or cash incentive is just another way of packaging a discount. It's out in the open, and nothing stops the competition from offering an equal or better incentive. Nothing is stopping Sony from doing the same thing. Don't be surprised if they do it or are already doing it.

Full disclosure: I am a Microsoft employee, but am not involved in any way with anything related to HD-DVD or Windows Vista.

Re:hmm

[Danzigism]

although I agree with you 100% regarding the definition of bribery, I still think its a little unfair considering that Microsoft hardly has any competition in the operating system market..

but think about the companies Microsoft is giving incentives to.. they benefit HIGHLY on the use of Microsoft products.. its simply an added bonus for them.. maybe the people that are backing Blu-Ray need to hand out some incentives too.. I'd gladly take some free Sony shit ;-)

Final Proof That BluRay Has Won

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that Microsoft is trying something so desperate as this pathetic stunt should be a clear indication to everyone that BluRay has won.

Microsoft, the anti-DRM?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the reason MS doesn't like blu-ray is because it is so DRM laden that it doesn't allow full interoperability with Microsofts media center software and its accessories. Otherwise there is no real reason for microsoft to even care whether either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray become the next generation video format, as currently Microsoft has no vested interest in either of them.

Yes, normally Microsoft is the DRM king, but in this case it seems that they believe that Sony's DRM is going too far, or at least that it is going to hurt their business model somehow (otherwise they probably wouldn't care how bad the DRM was.)

And having read the DRM specifications on Sony's Blu-Ray format, I quite agree with Microsoft here. I would prefer Blu-Ray in that it has larger capacity than HD-DVD, but the "DRM to the extreme" that Sony is putting on Blu-Ray just ruins the whole thing. Sorry, HD-DVD all the way IMO.

Re:Microsoft, the anti-DRM?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought that MS didn't like Blu-ray because it required Java, but was otherwise OS agnostic.

And that HD-DVD required iHD, a scripting language developed by MS and others for MS based platforms.

The DRM is pretty much the same, no? If not, what are the specific differences?

I thought they chose HD-DVD months ago

[Anonymous Coward]

No news here, now they are getting serious about fighting Sony and they are doing boarderline legal things to do it.

Both formats will have fairly strong DRM if they are going to have HD content, that's done, if you want movies you have to protect them. Blu-ray has the edge as far as media goes. I'm not entirely sure what HD-DVD has going for it at all other than not being from Sony but at the same time Sony has lined up a nice group of supporters so it doesn't look like the run-of-the-mill memory stick or minidisc style sony product. Even if it does turn out to be memory-stick all over again, HD-DVD is going to use windows media player as the format, how fucking open is that?

I'm looking at it this way, MS has never done a standard that has lasted for any interesting amount of time before becoming a problem. I'm not entirely sure Sony has either but I'm impressed with my playstation's ability to play PS1 games and DVDs as well as PS2 games. I'm somewhat inclined to think that they know what they are doing quite a bit better than MS does here.

Blu-ray appears to have a fairly straight forward migration path to make it a media format for well over a decade. What's HD-DVD got going for it?

Basically, PS3 comes out in June. With that every house that has one will have a blu-ray player and I'm pretty sure HD movies will be showing up quikcly there after. If Sony can get that going, then it's done. There needs to be a damn compelling HD-DVD solution now with some media now if they want to fight that. Unlike VHS vs. Beta, there is going to be substantial market penetration quickly from the sony side; VCRs took a while to get out there and were quite a bit more expensive.

No Lord of the Rings and StarWars will decide.

[LWATCDR]

The format that they publish Lord of the Rings and StarWars on will be the format that wins. It is about software people. If they publish it in both formats then the cheapest will win.

Re:No Lord of the Rings and StarWars will decide.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about content (not really software), though I'm sure that's what you meant.

On the other hand, it's notable that neither trilogy you mentioned led the charge for DVD nor really helped it become the disc format for video. They chose the format because it was the standard after several years. George Lucas was pretty adamant about not releasing on DVD too early so he wouldn't be the one picking sides (in DVD vs Divx). If anything, the original Matrix was the first big hit on DVD.

Re:No Lord of the Rings and StarWars will decide.

[defy god]

yes, because it worked oh so well for the laserdisc.

Re:No Lord of the Rings and StarWars will decide.

[evilviper]

If they publish it in both formats then the cheapest will win.

VHS is the cheapest. It still lost.

No violation

[everphilski]

* giving computer manufacturers the flexibility to contract with competing software developers and place their middleware products on Microsoft's operating system;

They are giving incentives to HD-DVD over BlueRay, not banning BlueRay development. There is a difference between incentives and Microsoft saying no.

-everphilski-

Re:No violation

[NullProg]

They are giving incentives to HD-DVD over BlueRay, not banning BlueRay development. There is a difference between incentives and Microsoft saying no.

Maybe. The million dollar question is, do you as a hardware manufacturer, still get the incentive/discount if you support both formats? If not then it appears to me they are using thier monopoly power to manipulate other markets.

Food for thought,
Enjoy.

Just what are Memos and Coupons?

[Nom du Keyboard]

Just what are memos and coupons? Sounds like what you, the consumer, gets as a result of your class action suit victory, while the lawyers get actual $$$s.

Coupons might be discounts on the MSVista price -- or something else altogether. Supposedly this somehow translates into $$$s for the manufacturers.

Memos? WTF? An Atta-Boy directly from Mr. G. by e-mail? A memo from billg to MSAccounting along the lines of: "Don't bill these people this month. They've been real nice to me."

Or are these words selected because they're not: Incentive Payments, Rebates, Kickbacks, and/or Bribes -- which are all bad words in this context?

Re:Just what are Memos and Coupons?

[smeenz]

My guess would be "memorandum of understanding"

HD DVD is less restrictive, DRM-wise

[everphilski]

Free, secure, better OS + Blu-Ray (higher capacity & quality) AND BADA$$ DRM

Bloated, expensive OS + HD-DVD (lower capacity and quality). LESS RESTRICTIVE DRM

IMO Microsoft is backing the right technology...

-everphilski-

Re:HD DVD is less restrictive, DRM-wise

[Kjella]

Well, since the question is what topping you'd like with your poison, pardon me if I don't get all too sentimental over the choice.

Blu-ray still #1

[Randall311]

Besides the fact that Blu-ray is DRMed up the ass (which is exactly why the Movie industry loves it) it's a technically superior format to begin with. Of course this format war could be over before a winner is even decided if the halographic discs become a reality, then that will spell the demise for optical storage as we know it anyhow. I dunno though, it just seems like distributing Blu-ray bundled in with the PS3 is the perfect market penetration. It seems more likely to me that Sony could saturate the market with PS3 long before everyone buys a new PC bundled with HD-DVD hardware and Vista.

Re:Blu-ray still #1

[metricmusic]

HD-DVD is choc full of DRM too so thats a non-issue.

And that halographic disc manfacturer would need the backing of a few studios to get anywhere. Otherwise they will just be another BETA.

Re:That's just great

[Anonymous Coward]

The worst product? Do some research, INCLUDING pricing and transfer speeds as well as MEDIA COSTS and then come back.

Do your homework first, boy.

Misconception about there being a debate

[Rhoon]

As if there was a debate in the first place. Even if Intel, AMD, Sony, Nintendo, Hollywood all took on Blu-Ray, HD-DVD would still win out as M$ would just bundle that into their OS and totally divide the market.

The industry tends to go with what M$ wants to go with and everyone else can scream till they're Blu- in the face but it wouldn't do them a single bit of good. M$' market share with their OS gives them the first, final and only vote.

And the conductor says...

[NotFamous]

Everybody together now:
1, 2, 3... YAWN
resume normal transmission...

Re:So much momentum. Wonder if DIVX can happen aga

[forkazoo]

When DIVX was crushed it felt like a giant victory. But DIVX only had one company behind it. This time the draconian DRM will have the entire tech industry behind it. And people won't be buying self-destructing media.

I think we're fucked.

If people actually stick with their DVD drives and let HD-DVD and BluRay both die on the vine, maybe some tech companies will do the right thing. But it's an extremely long shot.

I think that with the emerging trend of online distribution, media formats may start to become fairly uninteresting. My only interest in Blu Ray will be as a backup drive. I'll just have a PC plugged into my TV to play content, so I won't need a High-Def set top box media player of any sort. In a few years, we'll all have an iPodHD, or some equivalent to carry around our video.

Microsoft will not confirm or deny

[digitaldc]

a spokesman said, "Microsoft doesn't comment on the details of meetings we've had with our partners."

Since when?

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/15/161200 &tid=126&tid=129
a link in case we forgot about this debate on which one is superior

Chickens coming home to roost

[tomcres]

I think a lot of this has to do with Microsoft being bitten before wrt Java. The last time they tried to "embrace and extend" it, they were greeted with a lawsuit from Sun. I can't imagine they want to support anything even associated with Java anymore. This is also one of the reasons they developed C#/dotNet. So they could do Java-like things without relying on Java and having to worry about Sun suing them whenever they stepped outside of Sun's boundaries.

Re:Chickens coming home to roost

[Halfbaked Plan]

This is also one of the reasons they developed C#/dotNet.

Also, they developed C# and .NET because they saw what a horrible failure Java had become in many of the things it originally set out to accomplish. I.e. 'there's a JVM suited for every purpose, one you have to load to make each Java app run, and it's bundled with said app.'

ewww...

[tomcres]

I'm just thinking.. maybe it will come down to which supports greater "interactivity".. I dunno.. I really don't want to become that intimate with my DVD player.. :/

Re:That's just great

[Anonymous Coward]

Leave it to Microsoft to fuck things up and force the worst product down our throats. Blu-ray is so superior to HD-DVD it's not even funny. But Microsoft, King of Shit, doesn't want to play with Sony. It all comes down to the XB360 needing a different drive than the Blu-ray enabled PS3. Anything to differentiate yourself, right Microshit, anything other than actually producing a higher quality product that is.

"Worst product" is pretty subjective, personally I think both products are equally bad. I have no intention of maintaining a backup of my hard-drive on several optical discs, and mostly don't expect many pieces of software to exceed 30 MBs for years, so for PC use neither is particularly better. Neither format takes full use of compression to allow more video content to be stored on an individual disc; if you look at WMV-HD you can fit HD movies on a conventional DVD, so you should be able to (using the same compression) fit the entire LotR movies on a single HD-DVD/Blu-Ray disc (but you can't because neither format supports decent compression). Finally, both formats are pretty DRM heavy which (although it will be broken quickly) is enough reason not to buy into one of these formats; the best way to prevent piracy is to sell your product for a price that people are willing to pay (at $10 per movie you would cover all of your costs and people would buy a lot more movies [why rent when for only 2x the price you could own it])

MS or Sony, who is more evil?

[SteveXE]

1st off how is it illegal for Microsoft to promote a piece of hardware they DO NOT EVEN OWN? How does it further their "monopoly"? Next, 2 months ago everyone was crying about Blu-Ray's extreme DRM, and while HD-DVD has DRM as well its not as bad as what Sony is trying to shove down our throats. The difference is today MS is doing something to help the better standard so you all bitch because it must be bad.

Have we all forgoten about rootkits? Whats worse, MS giving out a freaking coupon or Sony using their DRM to cripple our Blu-Ray players because we tried to watch something they didnt like, or because we took a screw out of the case, or because we lent a friend the latest movie we bought, or because they just damn well feel like it.

Topic answer is Sony.

Re:MS or Sony, who is more evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your first point is absurd. They are furthering their interests in a number of ways. Obviously they hope to block Blu-ray from becoming the standard. Who develops the PS3 and has hyped Blu-ray as a great feature of it? Sony. Who is competing with the PS3? Oh yeah, Microsoft. They're trying to extend their monopoly into the living room, and if you don't think they are with all of their WebTV, Xbox 360, and Media Center projects, you're just naive. One way to gather a huge amount of leverage is to control how the media is distributed. This is not only a defensive move to counter the PS3's launch, but to try to control media in the home.

Also, how do you know what the HD-DVD DRM or the Blu-ray DRM will allow at this point? They haven't finalized the spec for either one, and you have no idea what type of last minute changes will bring (for better or worse). No one cries about extreme DRM anymore because both are pretty much the same from the consumer point of view. Your paranoia about DRM is just astonishing to be frank. BTW, it isn't Sony that's driving the DRM march. Disney, Paramount, Warner Bros., and pretty much everyone else in the business has an active interest in DRM as well.

I think you have more of a beef with Sony than you do with Blu-ray itself.

Re:MS or Sony, who is more evil?

[SteveXE]

"They're trying to extend their monopoly into the living room, and if you don't think they are with all of their WebTV, Xbox 360, and Media Center projects, you're just naive. One way to gather a huge amount of leverage is to control how the media is distributed. This is not only a defensive move to counter the PS3's launch, but to try to control media in the home."

1st of Microsoft is far from having a Monopoly in anyones living room and chances are they never will because that space isnt the same as PC's. There will always be another Nintendo or Sony to challenge them in that regard so your worrying is needless and silly.

Next, how do you figure its the movie studios pushing Sony for DRM when its Sony themselves who introduced the worst consumer DRM (in audio cd's) thusfar? Aside from that Sony is a movie studio too! Wake up to the world and let your hatred of Microsoft go for a moment, you might learn something.

Im not saying either choice here is great for us consumers, but if I gotta pick between Sony who I clearly know is against the consumer, or Microsoft who seems to be slowly changing bit by bit, then I think I'll go with Microsoft...did I mention MS didnt invent nor do they own any rights to HD-DVD?

Re:MS or Sony, who is more evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, it isn't Sony that's driving the DRM march. Disney, Paramount, Warner Bros., and pretty much everyone else in the business has an active interest in DRM as well.

Sony might not be "driving the DRM march", but they are sure as hell providing the vehicle for it.

Re:MS or Sony, who is more evil?

[bucky0]

It's partially a big deal if microsoft uses its clout to promote HD-DVD because they have a vested interest since they own some of the technologies within it (WMV codecs) and stand to gain a lot from its royalties.

Re:MS or Sony, who is more evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whats worse, MS giving out a freaking coupon or Sony using their DRM to cripple our Blu-Ray players because we tried to watch something they didnt like, or because we took a screw out of the case HD-DVD is going to use the same exact DRM features (managed copy, AACS, etc), so we might as well just go with Blu-Ray as long as it prevents MS from putting their stink on everything.

Re:MS or Sony, who is more evil?

[Anonymous Coward]

MS is promoting HD-DVD for its own interests.

Looks like DualDisc wasn't the only format approved by the DVD Forum last week -- the HD-DVD specification was pushed through, as well, including the VC-9 codec (read: Windows Media Player 9) from Microsoft.

from here: DVD Forums Approves HD-DVD, Microsoft Codec

Re:MS or Sony, who is more evil?

[IntlHarvester]

What Microsoft is doing is more nefarious than pushing one disk format over another. What they are trying to do is create a VHS-Beta type situation which confuses consumers, encouraging them to skip HD disks and go right to Internet distribution.

It is said that Amir Majidimehr, General Manager & Vice President of Microsoft's Digital Media Division, told to Disney top officials about denial of iHD adoption to the BD spec, "Microsoft would concentrate all resources to react to the threat of the BD. We don't mind to delay the format standardization process and mess up next generation optical disc market". That is, Microsoft's aim is crushing HD video package business itself unless its own technologies, vested interest are adopted in the next gen optical disc.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=67 95079&&#post6795079

> Microsoft to promote a piece of hardware they DO NOT EVEN OWN

Microsoft has IP in both HD-DVD and BluRay (although more in HD-DVD).

Re:MS or Sony, who is more evil?

[Weedlekin]

Of course it's promoting it for its own interests, just like the people on the Blu-Ray side are promoting it for their interests. Nobody on either side of the table has our interests at heart, because they see us as a collection of mindless ambulant wallets that will open and spew money at them whenever they tell us to.

vacate..

[Anonymous Coward]

The conspiracy is evil, ya for no fuckin reason.

How will apple thing different?

[klubar]

It's interesting to see what side Apple will take? Are they going the Intel standard? Thinking differently (like ADB or firewire)? Or just not thinking at all.

Re:How will apple thing different?

[Halfbaked Plan]

"Firewire" is an IEEE-sanctioned standard. Although Apple has stuck on one of their clever trademarked names that some people use to refer to it.

It's been quite awhile since Apple had the gumption to coin one of their own 'standards' in hardware. Really, they've been beaten badly in that area.

Re:How will apple thing different?

[Johannes Rexx]

Apple supports Blu-Ray. Ergo I don't give a flying leap that BillGatusOfBorg, MonkeyMan, and their band of pirates prefers. Linux users won't give a damn either. Indeed, if this goes right, Linux will support BOTH high definition DVD standards and Vista can suck gas for all I care. This may well be the turning point for Linux desktop multimedia. Ironic too that Sony, which recently embarrassed itself with that root-kit DRM stunt a while back, is the enemy of my enemy - er, my friend?

DVD-RAM

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft bundled full DVD-RAM support with Windows XP. Look how well that worked out.

What about #3?

[jd]

Microsoft are leveraging their monopoly to promote one format over another. One will be supported, the other (probably) not. Sure, they're not preventing the development, but they are retaliating in the sense of destroying any competitive advantage a rival format would have. It's indirect, sure. It's not "direct" retaliation, sure. It demonstrates a passive-aggressive streak in Microsoft, sure.

There are other ways and means Microsoft could retaliate without being too obvious. Periodically updating underlying multimedia support via Windows Update, so that drivers for rival formats break, for example. Third party drivers aren't their problem, right?

Even the mere threat, or implied threat, of such action could be considered retaliation of sorts. It's like insiders using confidential information to deliberately manipulate the stock market, only this time it would be to manipulate the value of a product, not a stock.

My interpretation of the judgement would be that it is exactly this sort of conduct that was anticipated, not hostile buy-outs or drive-by shootings. Ok, maybe I should re-phrase. It is my belief that that damn well should have been how the judgement was supposed to be interpreted, on the grounds that you could never "prove" any of the terms except in the absolutely most blatant cases imaginable, and those would simply never arise. There is no point in a judgement if it is so restrictive that it prohibits itself from applying to anything that is likely to happen.

Re:What about #3?

[Keeper]

There is no retaliation involved against companies choosing to support blu-ray. Your perception of what qualifies as retaliation and what actually is retaliation do not match.

With your view, if I bought a coworker a soda for helping me fix a hard problem, I'd be retaliating against all of my coworkers (which is utter nonsense).

And the rest of your point is null and void -- whine and bitch when they DO something retaliatory, not because they COULD do something.

This does not involve any leveraging of their monopoly. They are not taking any actions preventing blu-ray from functioning, or in any manner excluding blu-ray from use in computers.

NOT sole reason. Microsoft chose side ages ago.

[CarpetShark]

Umm, I don't know where this article gets the idea that microsoft may have chosen a side. Blu-Ray uses Java. Let me spell that out for everyone: cross-platform, not .NET, not media tech. owned by MS. Bill himself is reported to have been shouting about that in Sony's offices.

So, while MS may well want to crush PS3, I think we need to remember that consoles are probably just a way of getting MS and their Media ownership sold to the next generation. What bill cares about is owning the tools that run the content, not having successful individual products like X-Boxes or having the best NG-DVD format.

Why?

[drhamad]

What I don't understand is why MS cares which format wins. They have no stake in the hardware business, really, except for the xbox, which uses neither. By the time the next xbox comes out, one format or the other would be a significant amount of the marketshare and MS could just go with that. So I don't get it. Why does MS care which wins?

Re:Why?

[TriZz]

If Blu-Ray becomes the standard - and available in the PS3, then the PS3 has the upper-hand in the video game market (again). If you're bouncing between the idea of which one to purchase, and this one plays HD-DVDs and this one doesn't - it might be the deciding factor in your purchase. Microsoft sets the standard - Blu-ray becomes obsolete, it's just another dent in Sony's market (which they've been desperately trying to acquire). If Blu-Ray becomes the standard - all of Microsoft's hard work and rush to get the 360 out before everyone else becomes a fruitless effort.

Re:Why?

[swordgeek]

In addition to all of the perfectly relevant points that the other poster made, it comes down to this: Control. MS wants to control WHAT you watch, WHEN you watch it, HOW you watch it, and with WHOM you watch it. Having to control only one format is much cheaper.

Or that much harder to crack?

[ImaLamer]

It effectively attempts to curb Sony's console dominance by making Blu-Ray next to worthless.

It seems to me that if Sony goes with Blu-Ray and all the PC's out in the wild won't have it, it will be harder to copy their games. Mod chips always come out, encryption is cracked, but not being able to produce discs with the proper format/standard will halt copying efforts.

Of course it isn't the end all solution to piracy. Every SEGA Dreamcast game out has been copied and distributed, but you had to download the game (1+ Gigabyte) through a serial cable first. Using a proprietary technology kept people from renting games just to copy them. Assuming that the PS3 doesn't allow you to rip a game and upload it through the controller/USB/Firewire ports and that you can't fit a PS3 game on a DVD-R then they have got a winner.

Just imagine it another way: Protocol dead zones.

I had to create an network for a school that kept teacher's workstation and servers separate from the rest of the network. No student was allowed to even attempt a log in. The easiest way to do this was to use Novell Netware 6 (eDirectory) and IPX/SPX for all teacher/back-end communications. No student workstations were supplied with the drivers to use IPX (no student could install drivers, software, etc). Even if they had a rouge Linux install with IPX ready to go, let's say, the switch had IPX/SPX routing disabled for those ports. The only switch ports that would transmit IPX were the ones we told it to (of course all switches are kept in locked cabinets and so forth).

Same theory here for Blu-Ray. If the only place it is ever seen is the PS3 then Microsoft helped the PS3 become more "pirate-proof". (Of course, it could be argued that no PS3 game piracy may hurt Sony and so forth...)

Besides, who is the consumer electronics giant here, Sony or Microsoft?

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[squiggleslash]

Every SEGA Dreamcast game out has been copied and distributed, but you had to download the game (1+ Gigabyte) through a serial cable first.

Conversely though, the proprietary route does seem to be working on the GameCube which has seen little (if any) piracy.

The major issue with the Dreamcast, I guess, is that it was semi-open, still supporting a number of backdoors, including the ability to read from regular CDs in hardware.

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[advocate_one]

Even if they had a rouge Linux install with IPX ready to go,

what the fsck is it with you Americans and your inability to spell "rogue"??? For your information, rouge is something you use to make your cheeks prettier with... and is also the French word for the colour red...

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[Breakfast Pants]

Take out the paranthetical and you statement is true for every console, ever. There is always little piracy for game consoles. The main reason for protections is to prevent unlicensed 3rd parties from creating games for the system.

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[Penguinoflight]

Remember, Gamecube was a failure for Nintento, and I'd argue that it was mostly because they didn't play dvds. The system wasn't thought out with the customer in mind, it was designed to pervent piracy, which just isn't a good business plan.

Here's hoping that nintendo learned their lesson and will be able to provide an excellent console without TCA protections.

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[gateep]

..if they had a rouge Linux install..

..you mean Red Hat?

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[Kohath]

It seems to me that if Sony goes with Blu-Ray and all the PC's out in the wild won't have it, it will be harder to copy their games.

In other news, Pioneeer officially announced their BRD-101A Blu-ray burner today.

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[toddestan]

I don't believe the GameCube was a failure. It certainly didn't sell as many units as the PS2, but I'm pretty darn sure Nintendo still pulled a profit with the GameCube. They certainly haven't been losing money at the rate Microsoft has with the XBox, that's for sure.

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[Grishnakh]

I'm not sure, but you can probably blame it on either our incredible laziness, or our horrible public education system that graduates students who are functionally illiterate.

If you ever visit here, one big thing you may notice is that at least half the people you come in contact with are utterly incompetent. Go to some shop to buy something, get some food, ask for information, etc., and there's a very good chance they'll screw it up somehow.

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[advocate_one]

statistically speaking, 50% of people are below the national average for IQ/smarts/whatever...

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[Tyger]

Not necessarily true. It would be more accurate to say that 50% of people are below the national median for IQ. Even that wouldn't be entirely accurate because there could be many people at the same level as the median that would be discounted. The way average works, if you have 6 numbers; 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 12; then the average is 6, so 4/6 would be below the average.

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[Grishnakh]

Correct, but that has nothing to do with peoples' competence at their chosen jobs. Someone working in retail doesn't need to have a high IQ to be a good employee. Go to other countries, and I think you'll find that most of the people you come into contact with (bus drivers, hotel desk workers, retail workers, etc.) are far more competent than those in the USA. I noticed this on my recent trip to Canada, which supposedly is similar to the US, but in terms of peoples' attitudes and competence, is completely different.

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[Penguinoflight]

It's possible that the GameCube turned a small profit for Nintendo, but my guess is that any success they have experienced in the past few years has been from handhelds. They dominate that field, and lets face it, Nintendo didn't market the GameCube with intentions it being the 3rd string.

Re:Or that much harder to crack?

[SchrodingersRoot]

Actually, strictly speaking, from a statistically perspective, given a normal/Gaussian distribution, it's precisely true. The normal distribution curve is a fairly accurate model for quantitative phenomena in the many realms, like behavioral sciences. Many psychological and intellectual test scores as well as various phenomena like photon counts approximate a normal distribution. That being said, in a normal distribution, 50% of the population is above the mean, and 50% is below (since from a statistical standpoint, the probability of someone existing at a single point on the curve is defined as zero--now, obviously, this isn't precisely true from a real world perspective, especially given the integer nature things like IQ)

Moreover, IQ is actually defined statistically, with 100 being the average IQ. Consequently, approximately half of the population of the world/country/sample has an IQ of 100 or below.

Kind of a scay thought, neh?

Re:That's just great

[amliebsch]

Neither format takes full use of compression to allow more video content to be stored on an individual disc; if you look at WMV-HD you can fit HD movies on a conventional DVD, so you should be able to (using the same compression) fit the entire LotR movies on a single HD-DVD/Blu-Ray disc (but you can't because neither format supports decent compression).

Are you sure? I was under the impression that both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD standards would support VC1 for sure, which is basically a standardization of WMV9.

No more discs - No more Microsoft

[MikeFM]

I've already decided that I won't be buying any copy protected media (movies, music, etc) if I can't easily break that copy protection (such as with DVDs) and likewise that I won't be buying any software that requires I use DRM or any kind of 'trusted computing'. So I guess that means I'll be saving a fortune as I will no longer be buying thousands of movies or spending any money on Microsoft software. I buy 500 movies a year at an average of $10 each. Wow, I just saved $5000 a year. Not good for movie companies though.

How long before players doing Blu-ray/HD-DVD?

[drasfr]

I mean, yes, how long before we see players that can do both?

After all... when DVD-Rs came out, and DVD+R. No one was doing both, suddently (I don't remember the history in detail, who), but someone came out (sony?) with a player that was doing both...

and now, what? Well, don't they all do both? or all? DVD-R/+R/-RW/+RW? It's been a while since I have seen a player/recorder that do only one format...

Why can't the same thing happen for Blu-Ray/HD-DVD?

Sure it is a license thing... like it was for DVDs... You pay? You got the right to do it. Is there anything in the agreements they have that will prevent both format to co-exist in the same device? I doubt...

Combo HR-DVD/Blu-ray. Sure it might be expensive at first. The technology seems to be quite different for both format. But we have seen more difficult things happen

Any bet on this? When?

Re:How long before players doing Blu-ray/HD-DVD?

[swb]

Seems logical. I'm wondering if it will initially be simpler and more cost effective to just cram two identical drives into one box, at least initially, until they do the work to make dual format drives workable.

Earth may have finally chosen to orbit around sun!

[nick_davison]

Microsoft may have chosen a side in the ongoing optical disk war.

Microsoft is finally choosing sides and going with HD-DVD now? Wow, this is exciting news. Personally, I was left wondering after:

It was announced (though later dropped) that the 360 would support HD-DVD.

It was announced from the beginning that HD-DVD's DRM was less restrictive to what Microsoft wanted to do with Vista and thus their platform of choice.

It was rumoured that Bill Gates shouted out the head of Sony for the restrictive DRM on Blu Ray and how it conflicted with Microsoft's plans.

Microsoft has backed HD-DVD all along. Observing that they've finally chosen a side is like observing that the earth seems to have finally chosen to orbit around the sun or that fat kids have finally chosen a side in the cake-no cake debate.

Re:Get over it.

[Anonymous Coward]

You guys have to remember that NOT EVERYONE IS A NERD. Most people will be somewhat oblivious about this battle and will buy their products based on name recognition only; i.e. HD-DVD. Thus, Microsoft is automatically ahead of Sony. But this could turn around from clever marketing, PS3 popularity, etc.

Game makers already think otherwise

[SuperKendall]

Reason? Games with hi-res textures have been available for under 9 gigs for awhile now on a PC. No game for this console will require the ~45gig capacity.

I was watching some video on IGN from the GDC (game developers conference) and a number of people actually writing and developing games disagree with you.

What they talk about is how annoyed they are they have all kinds of room to work with on the PS3, then have to cram said content into the tiny shoe of the DVD for the 360. They are Very Annoyed.

The long-term effect for Microsoft is going to be bad, because multi-console ports are going to come along that look better on the PS3. Not because it's more powerful, if at all, but simply because the textures will not be as compressed and thus look better on the PS3. The average consumer will interpret this as the 360 being less powerful.

A Next-Gen console should never reelase with last-gen media.

Since both DH-DVD and Blu-Ray use the same DRM (different issue than managed copy) that part makes not a whit of differnce. Note in the recent story Slashdot reported on about DRM squabbles, that the same argument is also delaying HD-DVD player releases.

Re:Game makers already think otherwise

[Anonymous Coward]

Mmkay, when you find me a game running at 1080p (since we can do it on PCs) that is as playable and looks as good as current PC games at that resolution, we can talk about needing more storage space. Until the consoles do match current PC games in graphics, it's hard to argue for more storage on them first.

Re:Game makers already think otherwise

[DCstewieG]

A quick look in my Games directory shows Doom 3 taking up 1.61 GB and Steam taking up 4.74 GB, which includes HL2, Lost Coast, and the Darwinia demo. I agree having more room would probably be nice to have (mostly for less effort required on the part of developers) but I'm not at all convinced that it will be a problem. Look at the amazing things developers did on N64 with as little as 8MB (Mario 64) and 32MB (Perfect Dark and both Zeldas)!

But then on the other hand...when have multi-disc games been an issue?! It's been happening since PlayStation. I don't see why that would be a problem now.

Re:That's just great

[Anonymous Coward]

Leave it to Microsoft to fuck things up and force the worst product down our throats. Blu-ray is so superior to HD-DVD it's not even funny. But Microsoft, King of Shit, doesn't want to play with Sony. It all comes down to the XB360 needing a different drive than the Blu-ray enabled PS3. Anything to differentiate yourself, right Microshit, anything other than actually producing a higher quality product that is.

haha u got pwntd

Re:FAoILZORS!!

[diogenesx]

Are you even trying? I mean, come on.

Re:That's just great

[6*7]

"Neither format takes full use of compression to allow more video content to be stored on an individual disc; if you look at WMV-HD you can fit HD movies on a conventional DVD,"

Consider the processing power required to play back that content. Most of those cheap standalone playback devices don't have even enough power to handle the "very complex" GMC algorithm in XviD, an xbox isn't even powerfull enough to play H264 (unless one doesn't use all the nice features that make it worth encoding to it in the first place).

"the best way to prevent piracy is to sell your product for a price that people are willing to pay"

Why pay if you can get it for free?

One movie will not make or break the format

[SuperKendall]

The format that they publish Lord of the Rings and StarWars on will be the format that wins. It is about software people. If they publish it in both formats then the cheapest will win.

In the larger sense you are right; but those two exact titles alone are not enough to gaurantee one format winning over the other. It will come down to movies but in this case the chicken is coming a little ahead of the egg; as Sony will release the PS3 before many discs are released and people will buy discs because they have devices that support them. Thus more Blu-Ray discs will be bought and even studios backing HD-DVD only will be at least also supporting Blu-Ray before long, as I imagine some studios have fresh memories of how well backing DiVX went.

It's a great strategy as it would be hard to drive adoption otherwise.

Re:One movie will not make or break the format

[LWATCDR]

I think those two franchises can guarantee the winning format. The early adopters will pretty much decide who wins this. When you can buy StarWars and LOTR for HighDef I think you will see people buying players and TVs just for those movies. But I could be totally wrong :)

...microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's a dark day indeed when the fate of anything is up to microsoft.

operating-system clout

[nurb432]

In other words " since microsoft is a monopoly with a stranglehold on the industry, we will do whatever they say so we dont upset them"

phffft

So, how come...

[Anonymous Coward]

Brian Zucker, a Dell technology strategist who sits on the Blu-Ray DVD committee, told EE Times. "The only reasons we would make a change would be if we saw significant customer demand not to back the format we have been working on," he added.

So how come the significant customer demand to get rid of DRM isn't being listened to?

Hate the means, but semi support the goal.

[olddotter]

I have to say I hate the anti-compeditive methods MS is using the wage the NG DVD format war, but I do support their goal of a less restrictive DRM system.

The thing is I'm afraid they will also try to set up the DRM specificly to make sure OSS operating systems (perhaps even non-windows operating systems) can not play back or use HD-DVD's.

Talk about the lesser of two evils!!

It's Not Anti Competitive!

[mpapet]

This is a different environment than the one that got Microsoft a slap on the wrist.

It's reasonable to suppose that the current Administration's view of anti-competitive does not include MS any more.

Please remember the main priorities of gov't is to:

1. Privatize pretty much everything. (e.g. there's no "public good" other than a few monuments and living museums like Yellowstone/Yosemite)

2. Create wealth. If anti-competitive behavior creates wealth then it's okay. Nevermind whatever history/regulations are present.

3. Protect the rich from the poor.

All the moral outrage in the world won't change it. But getting involved in politics, even at a local level might.

I can't be the only one tired of all of the moral outrage on /.

No

[hrieke]

If Sony goes one way and MS goes another, then Sony has a very strong selling point to the movie companies- "Look, our product DOES NOT PLAY on the PC, thus is an added level of security. It's that much harder ripe the content and post on the internet."
Like tennis, pool or politics- it's all in the spin.

Not up to Microsoft

[Phreakiture]

The fate of HD-DVD is most definitely not up to Microsoft, it is up to the market. With any luck, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray both will be clobbered by the existing DVD market, thus taking DRM with them.

Lets all back Microsoft on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

C'mon guys, when was the last time Microsoft put out something considered secure, only for it to be easily hacked? If they are pushing this technology, we should all sign on as well. :)

We see how well it worked for firewire and DVDram

[porkThreeWays]

As I remember it, Windows XP was at the threshold of new technologies. I think that's right around the time USB 2.0 was coming out and the ability for home users to burn DVD's...

Microsoft favored DVD-ram as its DVD format and Firewire over USB 2.0. We all see how much effect they had on those outcomes.

Hardware makers have more say. What the OS supports out of box is almost irrevalent. What ever hardware you purchase is going to usually have drivers and software for at least Windows anyway. There are many factors as to who's going to win this war. Microsoft is on that list, but they are like number 348.

The real question is whether it will work

[Infonaut]

Yeah this is a clear cut case of them using their monopoly position to undercut Sony

If MS successfully undercuts Sony by leveraging their Windows dominance, then I suppose Microsoft's monopoly power won't be diminishing as quickly as some of us would like. On the other hand, if they try it and fail, we'll have some strong evidence that Microsoft can no longer tell OEMs when and how high to jump.

Also, if MS uses the same sort of "incentive" deals it has used in the past, that would seem to be rather clear evidence that Microsoft's internal culture hasn't really changed all that much, despite the company's concerted efforts to appear less bullying. Microsoft could conceivably win the battle over next generation disc technology and lose the larger mindshare war.

News?

[franksands]

I'm sorry, but didn't MS support HD-DVD from the start? What's teh surprise that Vista will be HD-DVD friendly?

OT - Holy schneikies

[Control Group]

You buy 500 movies a year?

Crikey

I thought I bought a lot of books, but I don't average more than a book a day...where do you find the time to watch all these movies?

And I can't help asking...at that rate of purchase, I have to assume you don't rewatch many movies. Wouldn't it be cheaper to rent?

Re:OT - Holy schneikies

[MikeFM]

I'm an addict! ;) Seriously I would like to own a legal copy of every movie ever made. I have a thing for books too. I used to buy hundreds of books a year and read about one per day. Now I buy maybe a book every week as I spend to much time working and need up-to-date info so I read online rather than buying tech books.

I watch a couple movies a day usually. I can watch movies while working so it's good. Usually I get new movies in a burst of 4 or 5 at once every few days.

It really makes me mad though when I can't backup or change around what is mine. I like removing menus, ads, etc from my movies. Why should they be able to stop me?

Re:That's just great

[Anonymous Coward]

No matter the DRM, it will always end up online, for free, for those who want it for free. The only question is, will I buy the game/movie/music because it is more convienient to own a licensed copy, or will I pirate it, because in the end, even after buying my new game, I will need a crack to get the crappy DRM wrapped content to play on my computer with its apparently illegal virtual drive software. The **AA's need to realize they should be nice to the customers they have, because the pirates already don't care, and the way they are driving their media, our laws, and technology, the only people left will be criminals.

Re:That's just great

[LWATCDR]

Are there ASIC that support H264 and or XviD yet? That will be the real answer to the compression issue.

Don't forget the Disney factor

[hanshotfirst]

If what you say is true (unverified by /me), then you have mentioned the differentiating factor that will give the battle to HD-DVD/MS/etc.... Disney.

Consumers ultimately don't care what the format is or which Evil Corporation's pockets they fill. What they do care about is whether Timmy can play the new Winnie-the-Pooh game or Susie can print her Disney Princesses coloring pages. If these new titles and the re-re-re-release of Sleeping Beauty is only on HD-DVD then people will make sure they have the player that fills their children's demands for More of the Mouse.

Disney and MS agreeing on one format will make it difficult for any competing standard-candidate to last in the long run.

Re:Don't forget the Disney factor

[doctor_no]

Disney is a backer of Blu-ray, not HD-DVD.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,118880,0 0.asp

While Disney may have had a hand in the development of iHD, the bond with Microsoft I don't think is really that loyal.

Sorry (rouge linux vs. rogue linux)

[ImaLamer]

ahhh... I was thinking RedHat?

Re:Sorry (rouge linux vs. rogue linux)

[Anonymous Coward]

ROTFLMAO

Uhhh.... Wrong!

[everphilski]

*Official* Microsoft Windows Media Player for Mac: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/soft ware/Macintosh/osx/default.aspx

MPlayer with Microsoft wmv Codec Packs: http://www.mplayerhq.hu/

So, uh, which operating system were you complaining about not being able to watch Media Player files on? And yes, Microsoft *does* have a better track record than Sony with respect to DRM. It is in their best interest. They are an operating system manufacturer, not a digital media provider. (for the most part) (we've been over this before... I have references, at home, but I'm at work...)

-everphilski-

Re:Uhhh.... Wrong!

[Ucklak]

*Official* Microsoft Windows Media Player download page http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/mp10 /default.aspx

When I use Linux to view the page, I get "Your operating system is not supported by Windows Media PLayer".

When I use the Mac to view the page, I get "Download Windows Media Player 9 for Mac OSX".

For those that aren't OS ambidexterous, Windows Media Player 9 for the Mac is nothing like Windows Media Player 9 for Windows.
Windows Media Player 10 is able to support HD which there is no WMP10 for Mac.
However, Apple has Quicktime7 available for Mac and Windows and each port is EXACTLY identical in output and function.

MPlayer is a hack. A very useful and well received and I thank the developers for it.

Microsoft doesn't support MPlayer for Linux nor do they have a media player for Linux. They did have version 6.4 availabe for Linux about 5 years ago and it was identical except for midi output.

DRM -
I can burn a DVD using Sony's DVD burner (Dual Layer) and play it anywhere that will play a DVD.
If I burn a DVD using Microsoft Windows Xp Media Center, I can only play it on THAT machine and not a DVD player.

My Sony Digital camera works with my Mac and Linux operating systems.
My MSDN edition of Office 2003 only works on Windows of which there is a Mac edition that is nothing like the Windows version.
I'm not holding my breath on the Linux edition.

Who has my interests at heart? It's not Microsoft.

Re:Uhhh.... Wrong!

[killtherat]

*Official* Microsoft Windows Media Player for Mac

It's Media Player 9, (not 10). And it is probably the worst peice of crap exuse for a media player I have ever seen. I don't think I've ever been able to see a lag free movie with both video and audio (most often it just plays the audio with a frozen image on the screen). That and it can't handle modern DMR that microsort produces, so it's only good for playing unencrypted media.

Re:Uhhh.... Wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

You are an idiot using idiotic false analogies.

I can burn a DVD using Sony's DVD burner (Dual Layer) and play it anywhere that will play a DVD. If I burn a DVD using Microsoft Windows Xp Media Center, I can only play it on THAT machine and not a DVD player.

You are comparing HARDWARE to SOFTWARE. That same DVD burner you speak of is operational under windows XP rendering your point even more irrelevant than it already is (if that's possible).

My Sony Digital camera works with my Mac and Linux operating systems. My MSDN edition of Office 2003 only works on Windows of which there is a Mac edition that is nothing like the Windows version. I'm not holding my breath on the Linux edition.

Again, you are a moron comparing hardware to software. You still wanna play that game? My Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer works in Ubuntu.

You lose.

Re:Uhhh.... Wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

That same DVD burner on Windows MCE will NOT let you watch that burned DVD on any other DVD player idiot.

What the hell does an Intellimouse have to do with software? And NO it won't work like it does in Windows because you won't have Microsoft signed drivers, idiot. Will it work, absolutely. Will you get that clicky circle with the arrows that Microsoft supplies with the CD, not a chance.

Parent poster is illustrating that Microsoft can't write software that is exactly the same across different environments whereas the rest of the programming world can.

Re:Uhhh.... Wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent poster is illustrating that Microsoft can't write software that is exactly the same across different environments whereas the rest of the programming world can.
The correct word would be won't, not can't.

_V_

Why oh why do they listen to MS

[dalek_killer]

I think that MS would be the last company that anyone should listen to when it comes to setting standards since MS can't set any standards that work right.

is this realy going to help hd-dvd?

[jmnormand]

am i wrong in thinking that such open pc suport for hd-dvd may scare the mpaa towards blu-ray? add in the fact that blu-ray has the majority of the hardware industry behind it (including dell, hp and apple) and i dont see this as a big boost for hd-dvd.

Doesn't matter

[MasterLock]

In the end, we all know that it doesn't matter. MS will eventually support both formats as will ever drive out there. History as already shown us the outcome: look at the competing CD read formats (+R, -R), the writable versions, and the mix of DVDs already out there.

It's only the early adapters that are going to lose out. Everyone else will be fine in the end.

If MS goes HD-DVD - movie industry will go BluRay

[Name Anonymous]

Think about it, if Microsoft goes HD-DVD, the movie industry might just go BluRay to make it harder for Windows users to pirate movies.

repeat offense

[SethJohnson]

They are going to use their dominance in the console market to try to make Blu-Ray the defacto standard.

Sony doesn't hold a monopoly in the console industry. The market is pretty well divided among the XboX, Gamecube, and Playstation. With each generation of console, it's a wide-open opportunity for any participant to take the lead.

The anti-trust law that Microsoft was convicted of breaking was that they leveraged a monopoly in one industry (Computer Operating Systems) to suppress competition in another (Web Browsers). Other posters on this topic are proposing that this is a repeat offense.

Joel Klein-- "In this specific case the evidence is overwhelming that Microsoft was unable to compete on the merits and decided in its own words "to leverage its monopoly" in order to "make people" use their browser."

Seth

Let me add

[ImaLamer]

Security through infrequency?

The incredible bulk!

[rspress]

Microsoft see, Microsoft pound, Microsoft crush!

Nice to see that Microsoft has not changed their ways. Over this past year it made one wonder if they had learned humility. Guess not, it is back to Microsofts way or the highway.

Re:That's just great

[6*7]

For once the gun control crowd is right:
      "If $FOO is illegal, only criminals will have $FOO"
with in this case FOO being "convenient copies of $WORK".

Sony's Attack on MS literally

[infinityxi]

What do you think Sony's rootkit was REALLY for?

Re:That's just great

[6*7]

I'm to lame to search for the h264 decoder specs of the psp or video ipod. But I guess there is dedicated hardware in there. But both are far from HD specs.

Laugh, So Hard...

[Biomechanical]

Like never before.

That's what I'm going to do when they finally standardise, kids are playing on their XBOX 360 and PS3, Vista comes out, everyone's using either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, and a new standard is created that outstrips Blu-ray and HD-DVD in terms of cost, capacity, and convenience.

Time rolls on, tech evolves with aid from semi-intelligent mistake making, something new is always coming right round the corner...

Microsoft chooses HD-DVD? Duh!

[Overly Critical Guy]

EE Times is reporting that Microsoft may have chosen a side in the ongoing optical disk war.

The talk of HD-DVD in the X-Box 360 wasn't a hint? How about Microsoft's anti-Bluray press release which was blasted by Dell and others? Maybe Microsoft developing iHD for inclusion in HD-DVD was a clue? How about the fact Microsoft has been publicly supporting HD-DVD for the past year?

Are anti-competitive practices bad?

[zkosky]

I ask this in all sincerity and probably naivete (i.e. not flaming). Here is a James Joyce-ish stream of consciouse version of my thoughts on this matter.
Is a Microsoft type of monopoly bad?
I mean ... I understand that it is the point at which a company has very little or virtually no competition for their business. And this is considered bad because competition is good. Competition is good because it gets us the most quality and quantity at the lowest price, and a monopoly does not necessarily do this. Okay I understand that this is how the average person thinks about this, but does a monopoly necessarily have to NOT give customers the best product at the lowest price? No. A monopoly could very well produce a great product at a reasonable price and have a natural monopoly because it does so. And this seems to be what MS did, for a period of time. But that product and price and were not "the best" at "the lowest" and as a result, other people saw the holes and flaws(i.e. security) and sought to improve or create an alternative(i.e. linux). Now MS is slowing seeing their market share in software being encroaching upon with Apache and Firefox.

By way of explaination, by "MS-like monopoly" I mean a natural monopoly as apposed to an artificially maintained monopoly like the US postal service(for a long time before FedEx and others) or other organizations that are maintained through legislation.

Another question that I'm trying understand is ...
What is bad about a business engaging in anti-competitive practices?
I mean, we see anti-competitive practices around us all the time. Price wars, non-compete agreements, patents, trademarks, product bundling, long-term supplier/retailer contracts/incentives and other barriers to entry are around us all the time. They are normal "competitive" tactics and strategies in the business world, but when Microsoft does them, they are called anti-competitive and monopolistic and frowned upon. I mean ... in business school they teach people to do things that Microsoft does, and does well. They competed so damn well that they created a monopoly and now get crucified/litigated for it.

So in summary of my thought process (as disjointed as it is) I think that monopolies are bad, but they are really the ultimate goal of companies. Companies want to beat the competition and sometimes this includes the competition going bankrupt or losing market share. This naturally results in monopolies which, due to human nature/entropy, don't maintain that "competitive edge" or "best product for lowest price" which is bad. This is what happened with MS and now they have to start working hard to maintain that product at a decent price to keep their large market share. Their monopoly isn't much of a monopoly anymore because, yes, they are getting some serious competition that we all knew was coming. Did it take some time? Yes, but it was the natural progression of things. Was MS's monopoly a bad thing? No, because they were doing what business do, try to beat the competition.

I realize that I'm playing the devils advocate on this issue (I love linux), but just because I hate windows doesn't mean that I hate the company.

MS backing=old news, HD-DVD not many uses

[Zantetsuken]

First, the MS backing HD-DVD is MONTHS OLD NEWS.

Second, so what if they put it on PC's and dedicated movie players (like VHS decks, DVD players, ect). BD-ROMS are already for sure going to be in Sony's PS3 (even if if you hate consoles, wait till the cell comes out for workstations), and dedicated movie players, and PC's

Basically, while the HD-DVD's will be stuck with just movie content (who gives a crap if you can watch it on your PC if you cant put other content on an HD-DVD besides a movie?), while BD-ROM's broad usuage capabilities will be that of current gen DVD's, that is, movies, console games, PC game installers, ect.

Re:MS backing=old news, HD-DVD not many uses

[Vegeta99]

Blank VHS's sold just fine and you can't put anything but video on them...

Re:MS backing=old news, HD-DVD not many uses

[Warlock7]

The Cell won't be coming to workstations.

Re:MS backing=old news, HD-DVD not many uses

[Zantetsuken]

um... one of the key points IBM made on the chip was it is scalable and would be put in workstations and super-computers.

No, it's up to you

[smoker2]

As the "geek" in the local area, people often ask you first, or even just tell you what they are about to buy, just to get your opinion. In this instance, having been there before (dvd + - crap) just make out like there is another leet format just around the corner that is gonna completely out-do these two.
You don't have to name it, just be certain it's coming - be descriptive, but not definitive (yeah - LIE).

Hopefully, they'll take notice and spread the word, leaving these 2 vile formats dead in the road.

That's what I'm already doing.

It's bad enough having to get another dvd player just to support xvid/divx, without a whole new change on top. Despite the fact that they (divx players) are as cheap as chips.

Here's your chance to make a difference to the market - don't waste it !

Multi-disc games are always an issue

[SuperKendall]

It's a big, big choice to go multi-disc. While it's OK for RPG's (pretty much the only multi-disc games to date), it really reduces options in terms of non-linearity and breaks up the game flow. And for games with online play where you might jump from map to map to map you can't really have users swapping discs in and out.

Not to mention there are twice as many dicss to get scratched in rentals, more expensive packaging and duplication costs for a game that has a fixed price point. You go multi-disc, you are saying you are OK tossing out a dollar or two for every unit sold! That comes right out of the game makers bottom line and thus is a huge deal.

More space is only nice to have when you only have one size to fit in. If both the PS3 and 360 had te same amoutn of space there would not be as much of a problem. The issue again comes into play when developers and artists proceed to consume the space they have (as they always do) and then you have to make it work in a greatly reduced space. Something is going to give. You can't just NOT use the space as then other system dedicated games are going to eat your lunch.

That is why I am 100% sure that alongside the release of the PS3 will come the XBox 360 HD, with HD-DVD drive - and probably Halo 3 as the HD-DVD launch title. Oh sure there will probably also be a non-HD-DVD version of Halo 3 as well, but it will be missing some things the HD version has.

Re:Sony Not Toothless or "Bluetoothless"

[gerf]

Remember when Windows XP came out, oh so many years ago? They decided to support Bluetooth at that time as their default wireless network, rather than 802.11b? While I realize that there are people who use Bluetooth, I'm not thinking that it's a very large number, at least compared to 802.11

Personally, I'd like to see people offering video in Theora format. Online, or in cheap promo packages... whatever. I realize it won't be a new HD/DVD format, but it'd sure be nice to see more of.

discs not disks

[glitch23]

Optical media are spelled "discs" and magnetic is "disks". They intentionally made the distinction.

Re:Sony Not Toothless or "Bluetoothless"

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I'd like to see people offering video in Theora format. Online, or in cheap porno packages... whatever. I realize it won't be a new HD/DVD format, but it'd sure be nice to see more of.

Fixed.

Samsung

[sydlexius]

Engadget posted a link to a Reuters "story" back in September which indicated that Samsung would offer a combo unit. The link can be found here. I'd post the link to the reuters article, but that has expired.

The funniest picture...

[Chordonblue]

I'd ever seen to describe the rouge/rogue issue was where someone did a 'Rouge Squadron' photoshop of a Gamecube game. The Xwing pilot on the front cover clearly had two blushing cheeks. :)

So what?

[Danse]

I thought this was deemed illegal in the past. IIRC Microsoft was busted for kickback payments to system vendors who did their bidding, i.e. wouldn't bundle competing products on Windows installed computers. A "Coupon" wouldn't make it any different, it's an anti-competitive practice.

Yes, and while Microsoft has been to court over such things, there has never been any kind of real penalty for their actions in the past. They've always gotten off with the proverbial slap on the wrist. Why should they be deterred?

What of sony?

[gad_zuki!]

So when in Japan going to step up to Sony's anti-competitive practices. They're part of the content industry and pushing their DRM + Blu Ray because they can "bundle" these into their new PS3, which is in another unrelated market - console gaming.

MS wishes it was half as evil as Sony gets away with. All this anti-MS rhetoric is keeping people away from seeing one of their larger enemies, this one with no government sanctions as Japan really isn't into that kind of thing.

And why is the comparison valid?

[hkmwbz]

Could you explain why the comparison is valid? Did they have competitors in other markets they were entering (Sony, game consoles) that they were using their desktop monopoly to fight dirty against? Was USB/Firewire relevant to other markets Microsoft were entering or already in? Same for DVD burning...

And did you see the part about cash incentives?

Probably could do both, but MS unhappy

[CarpetShark]

They probably could do both. The underlying technologies are quite different but different read mechanisms should allow for that, albeit at some more expense.

I think the real problem is that Microsoft would have to put Java (and probably SUN's Java

on Windows again to make BluRay usable there. Even just strategically, they really don't want to do that, and will probably sabotage Java on Windows any way they can. But, they've fought lawsuits over this before, and they may end up paying Sun a Java tax. That would go a long way towards keeping Sun going while Sun finds further ways to fight Microsoft's dominance.

The Sad State of American English

[HTH NE1]

what the fsck is it with you Americans and your inability to spell "rogue"???

We have a general inability to spell certain words ending in -gue correctly. Consider how many people misspell "tongue" as "tounge". (You'll get more Google hits on the incorrect spelling if you turn SafeSearch off.) We also tend to drop the -ue in -logue words. Out of 20 -gue words maybe 7 or 8 get spelled correctly most of the time if at all.

I'm a bit more concerned about the slow death of the proper use of the hyphen. It is often incorrectly omitted in things like:

The movie "Eight Legged Freaks" apparently about eight freaks who have legs
Pontiac's "Game Changing Performance" football highlights where the game changes the player's performance, not the player's performance changing the result of the game, and
The Stargate Atlantis episode "Thirty Eight Minutes" 30 * 8 minutes == 4 hours.