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EU Says Microsoft Still Not Compliant
what about writes "News.com is reporting that the European Union still doesn't consider Microsoft in compliance with its anti-trust ruling." From the article: "Should the Commission issue a final decision against Microsoft, the software giant would face a retroactive fine of $2.36 million a day for the period between Dec. 15 and the date the final decision is issued. The Commission may then take additional steps to extend the daily fine until Microsoft complies with the order. The Commission's letter is just the latest action it has taken in the closely watched antitrust case. "
enough of a fine to make breaking the law an unprofitable method of doing business? I doubt it, given how much money Microsoft has saved up.
EU wants to play hardball? If they're smart, Microsoft could REALLY play this off to their advantage, making themselves look like a victim and getting the EU to back down.
Stop selling products in Europe.
Deny tech support to companies/users in Europe.
Buy advertising stating why they're pulling out of the market.
Make sure that each step of the way, you tell a sob story about how the EU is making it impossible to exist in that market, therefore you're pulling out. Can you imagine the backlash as suddenly no companies can get support, or no users can buy a computer with Windows installed?
Once the people get angry, I'm sure the officials would change their minds real quick.
The immense knowledge of all the assimilated Borg minds function as one. Resistance is futile!
Mr Burns: "Smithers, my wallet is in my front pocket."
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Still just a slap on the wrist until they actually get Microsoft to end its anti-competitive practices. The day a government actually gets Microsoft to change its corporate conduct is the day I'll applaud.
Developers: We can use your help.
I'm all for insuring Microsoft plays fair but come on, it seems like the EU is more interested in making an extra 30 or 40 million than making sure the consumer is protected.
Several of the US states (CA in particular) seem to see Microsoft as a way of making some extra money as well.
If the Linux bubble proved anything it is Windows is actually a pretty good product and despite thousands of Linux distros and tens of millions of dollars being spent over the last 5 years the average person still uses Windows.
There are plenty of options today, Mac Mini's are available and affordable, Powerbook prices will be coming down, there are tends of very mature desktop Linux distros.
In today's world the computer user has plenty of choices, you shouldn't penalize a company because they choose to use the major player. There is no question MS should be penalized if they break the law but we shouldn't fine a company just because they are the major player or because they can afford it.
Just another example of politics.
2. There would be about a 100-million-person case study confirming that
In other words, please please do this, bill.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
Don't be snowballed in all of this. Microsoft is being railroaded, because the EU is scared of having an American company producing the software that runs 99% of the West's business operations. It's all about trying to get a slice of the pie. Once they saw how MS got railroaded by the US on the Monopoly charges, they rubbed their hands with glee and started concocting ways to get their own slice of sweet, sweet Microsoft money. The bottom line is, as long as MS is selling software in the EU, the EU will be going after MS. If they stop selling in the EU, the EU will sue them for discrimination, and strum up some charges based on "Anti European" strategies. It's all about attacking the wealthy, unpopular guy because they know the masses will support them in lock step.
An Uncomfortable Truth
The EU courts ruled that they need to supply the information to competitors. They did not say commercial competitors. They did not say they could change a fee for it. (One could argue that they didn't say they couldn't but that's just bullsit weaseling that they won't get away with.) But to stipulate that the license on the information is that it could not be released to the public is 100% wrong and against the demands of the EU courts.
"Competitors" can and does include commercial, for-profit and non-profit competition alike. Whatever organization that is "Samba" along with whatever organization that is "OpenOffice" and whatever organization that is "Ximian" all qualify in this regard as far as I can tell.
Frankly, this is kind of fun to watch Microsoft in this losing battle. They are attempting to play this the way they played it in the U.S. and these people AREN'T Americans and probably dislike American companies... especially arrogant ones like Microsoft.
I just wonder if I will have to wait until Christmas to get my presents...
BUT if they do and stop sales/support in Europe that may not be a bad thing. Seeing how Europe in general is embracing OSS for Gov't and schools it may be a boon for widespread corporate acceptance as well. Hey I can dream right?
I kid you not.
Please establish a hypertext link to this message. Spread the word!
Based upon recent Microsoft diversionary tactics (publicising the documents, filing suit in the US, etc.), it was evident that Microsoft knew they weren't complying with the ruling. That is why Micorosft was trying to divert everyone's attention to other matters.
Microsoft's revenues are ~$40 billion annually, leading to a ~$13 billion profit. $2.36 million per day is $861 million per year, or 6% of Microsoft's yearly profits. While it won't kill them, figures like that are enough to make investors (and their lawsuit-happy lawyers) sit up and take notice.
It's also important to realize that this will only be the beginning. If MS continues to flout the EU's penalties, they will only get stiffer. In a fight between a multinational corporation and a multinational government, I'm betting on the EU this time.
Microsoft only has $40 billion cash in the bank... that means if this keeps up, then in a mere 47 years, Microsoft will be out of cash!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
If all I had to do was say someone wasn't serving me well enough, in order to take 2.36 million from them, I'd consider it.
...I bet the actual citizens of the EU won't see a 0.01 of any actual money the EU fines. It would be lost in administration and red tape and a lot of the BS that the EU is famed for. Rather than giving back to the people that Microsoft wronged.
Also interestingly: What happens if MS refuse to pay? I can't imagine there being much chance of them refusing, but would the EU have powers to strongarm MS's bank to pay up on behalf of Microsoft?
Baka Drew
Taeus' report describes various parts of the documentation as "entirely inadequate" and "self-contradictory," according to the Commission statement. "Taeus concludes that Microsoft's documentation was written 'primarily to maximize volume (page count) while minimizing useful information.'"
:-)
Microsoft, however, contends it has gone above and beyond industry requirements for documentation.
LOL, MS may actually speak the truth, and "inadequate" and "self-contradictory" may exactly be what the technical docs are.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
This is a money grabbing shakedown that would've made Kafka proud. Don't tell the accused why he is "not compliant" just declare that he isn't. No matter what Microsoft provides, the EU will say that they're not complying. To ensure this, they don't even bother to tell Microsoft what's wrong with what they've provided because they don't want Microsoft to be able to comply.
EU: We order you to provide documentation specifying how to let non-Windows clients work with Windows servers just as well as Windows clients can, or else face massive fines.
MS: OK, here's 12000 pages of documentation.
EU: It's not good enough.
MS: What's wrong with it? What parts are unclear?
EU: That's for us to know and you to find out. You're still facing massive fines.
MS: OK, we don't know what your problem is with the documents, but we'll now offer 500 free hours of tech support to any dev that doesn't understand the documents.
EU: Not good enough. You're still facing massive fines.
MS: OK, we still don't now why you can't understand the documents, but we now offer the source code to those devs that can't get this stuff to work even after reading the documents and getting 500 free hours of tech support.
EU: Not good enough. You're still facing fines.
MS:How about telling us exactly what's wrong with the documents so we can address the problems?
EU (with euro-signs dancing in their eyes): As we said before, the problems with the documents are for us to know and you to find out. Prepare to be fined.
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
Hypothetically, what would a good estimate of the actual damages suffered by the people that Microsoft wronged?
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Ok I realize we are supposed to hate MS here, but you know what? I'm sick of the EU's constant whining. Maybe Bill lined the pockets of the US govt, but MS did things to help resolve this and even did totally stupid things like un-bundle the media player just for the EU. WTF good is an OS without an included media player? I think it is time for the EU to stuff it and move on.
On the topic of bias'..."Yea open source, yea linux, boo windows" is not the answer just the same as the total opposite is not the answer. Each thing is a tool for a solution. I work for one of the largest companies in the world and I think that Windows is rightly our standard desktop. I also think that Linux is ideal for server side solutions as well. Both have their uses. Neither one is perfect.
For the reccord I use Mac's at home, am an Apple and Microsoft shareholder and a US citizen.
-Xen
What does the EU say on this and what M$ wants to do with it?
All the companies riding the coattails of all the legacy versions of windows will be native speakers of European.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
I hope they don't comply in time 1000%
-pyrrho
Also, I get somewhat intimidated by Microsoft and their legal threats. I don't mind what software other people use, but I do object to anyone stopping me using what software I want. The important thing for me is that I should have the right to take my software apart, change and fix it, and put it back together again.
These refer to this disclosure . Checkmate, I think.
Sig pending!
The EU is pissed as hell at MS. Now, once the EU kicks microsoft out with this fine, America is going to take a look at Microsoft's practices. I don't use windows, because I think linux is more configurable. Once average people become tech savvy enough to use and configure linux, I think microsoft is going to sue for something. I hope the EU is the first in a long list of events that will bring either A: Microsoft software prices down or B:make microsoft not be able to use unfair practices such as bullying with their team of lawyers that can sit in court all day just to waste the opposing lawyers' time.
The ONLY thing I want to know is, how is that 2.36 Million Dollars a day going to be spent? How much more user friendly in how short a time would linux become if $2.36 Mill was split between the Gnome and KDE development teams?
How much more cohesive and improved would xhtml, xforms, svg, ecma script, and css become if the core people working on them were paid a salary out of 3 days worth of Microsoft fines?
What about open source browser developers?
This is getting to be absurd. It's nothing but anti-american feelings in europe being taken out on Microsoft.
I like to bash microsoft as much as the next guy, but it's been taken too far. I hope microsoft tells them to fuck off and pulls their products from all of Europe.
It's pretty much a guarantee that Europe would for some period of time be entirely crippled if Microsoft made it impossible to get a product in the countries. Not a copy of windows, not an OEM copy of windows or office, no support, no security patches, nothing. I suppose all the consumer electronics stores would have to close their doors, then companies and governments would start having to do massive transitions to Linux.
Although that would never happen, becuase after about an hour they would come back to microsoft crying and begging for forgiveness.
Didn't anyone ever teach them not to taunt the giant? Sure microsoft is trying to play nice, it's in their best interest, but that doesn't change the fact that they wield unimaginable power.
Big ones, small ones, some as big as yer 'ead!
Give 'em a twist, a flick o' the wrist...
So basically, for the consumer, this is a win-win situation? If MS complies and opens it's standards, Linux, OSX, etc finally have a level playing field. No more exuses, it's put up or shut up. OSS Zealots, Mac Fanboys, and Dvorak afficinados can will all be sure their favorite toy will win, and be glad they get the chance to prove it. If Microsoft does not comply, they WILL be forced out of Europe. And then Apple and the OSS fans move in. Either way, I, the consumer (regardless of my OS preference) win. After all, those windows boxes won't stop working when Microsoft pulls out. Importation and piracy would also remain options (And that's if the EU doesn't delcrare some sort of emergency suspension of all Microsoft patents and copyrights to ensure it's member countries can get on the methadone)
I'm curious what more the EU wants? MS, after all, has provided the source code as the final and most authorative documentation. Do the EU want MS to create some new documentation product that makes the info more user friendly? What gives?
Microsoft can leave Europe. we don't know the wording to the contracts. Also linux isn't the best system Either.We have a linux system here that crashes completely everytime we try to update it. Wich means we have to load the backup image everytime. no matter what anybody else says I have never had a windows server crash on me . Imagine all of the european users trying to compile programs just so they can run it on their machine? IF microsoft pulled out of europe europe would be in trouble. Microsoft products are in more places then you think.
I agree, MS should pull out of europe.
Be careful what you wish for EU, you just might get it.
The EU is retarded... In my opinon, the EU's whole BS going on right now can be paraphrased as follows: "Hey, Microsoft, you're competition can't figure out how to compete with you, so why not help them along by giving them all the info they need. We know your bottom line will be hurt significantly, but hey - if you don't do it voluntarily, we'll charge you millions of Euros everday!!". To Europe (and I'm European): Get you're fucking nose out of the holes where it doesn't belong! If you want to be consistent - you should make it law that any product sold in europe should divulge source code also, which is the case for nearly 0% of commercial products.
the EU is essentially stealing US dollars on the backs of the underdogs.
As opposed to Microsoft, which was convicted of stealing dollars from European competitors who wanted to develop products that read and write Microsoft file formats and wire protocols?
Do you really think the consumer or BeOS will get a dime of this? Please.
The consumers in this case are European governments and their tax-paying citizens. This may help fund the governments' transition from Microsoft solutions to free software solutions, especially those involving projects with a European heritage, such as the SUSE Linux distribution, the K Desktop Environment, and the OpenOffice.org suite. Do tax laws in European countries allow for tax deductability of donations (whether monetary or in kind) to charities that maintain free software?
B and S. Within a 50 mile radius of where I live there are probably around 300,000 people total, probably more actually. Not major urban at all, but not totally sticksville either. Several decent enough sized cities, one with more than 100,000 people. There are NO apple computers for sale at any retail computer store I have been in (and as far as I know I have been to all of them) and NO new machines with Linux pre installed. You see XP and THAT'S IT.
MS is still a huge and over bearing monopoly. Most people don't get their machines/operating systems/software over the net, they buy them from brick and mortar stores for the most part. It's still windows there mostly. I know a lot of adults who honestly don't know that "apple computers" use a different operating system,nor are they even sure they know what an OS really is.. They think that macs are just odd and expensive machines they rarely see if ever, like seeing a bentley or something.. Windows=the computer, end of story. Truly, I am not exaggerating. As to linux, that is an unknown word to 98% (some huge number) of the computing public, no clue at all.
It's obvious that the EU are a bunch of sissy-boys who would never dare cross a super-big-and-powerful company like Microsoft! In fact, I dare them to take action against Microsoft! Go on EU, sanction Microsoft! What, are you chicken? Ooh! Going to fine Microsoft 300 million dollars? Oh no! Bill Gates might have to go digging around in his couch to pay that much money!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Many multinational corps have global license agreements with MS.
If you think they will allow MS stop supporting their applications in their first or second most profitable market (the EU) without a single lawyer raising an eyebrow, then you are more deluded than Ballmer while in a throwing chair hissy fit.
Most people that matter in the IT bussiness tolerate MS, but believe me, very few have any kind thing to say about the company. If MS wants to give them a good excuse to dump their software (like if they were not many) well, they can be my guest, I'll be the first one to hit the OK button in the format stage when installing Red Hat on my PC.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You guys in the US do not realize how some of your companies are viewed accross the pond.
Mc Donalds, Starbucks, even Ford, have a special place in the heart of many Europeans as examples of pigopolists that trample with the notion of Europeaness.
If MS wants to become itself the only target of legitimate and histerical antiUSianism in Europe, well, they can be our guests.
To confront the EU while being basically breaking the law would be the most monumentally stupid thing in the hisory of capitalism. It would become a case study of how to shoot yourself in the foot, no, head.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Not to mention the fact that in TFA it states that a company hired to reverse engineer some of the MS code in order to validate the documentation they DID provide found the documentation to be "self-contradictory".
You've been developing software for ten years, yet you've never run into specs with errors or self-contradictions? When such errors are found you either deal with them, or report the problems to the company that issued the documentation so they can fix it. I've programmed Windows and Mac for years, and found errors/self-contradictions in both API specs. Why? These are humans that are writing the specs! That's why specs are continually updated, refined, and fixed, but it's an interactive process that involves actually reporting the errors to the company. If you don't tell the company of the problems, how can they fix it? And by "reporting the problems" I mean reporting the *exact* problems, if you can identify them, not just saying "there are problems, find them yourself".
The company that you refer to claims to have found self-contradictory documentation. Did they bother to report the self-contradictions to Microsoft so they could be fixed, or did they merely report it to the EU so they could sit on it and claim it as evidence that the docs are insufficient without telling Microsoft what the problem is?
Think about this. What would Microsoft's motivation be for intentionally providing poor documentation? To hide something, or make the devs' task impossible? If that were the case, then they wouldn't be providing 500 hours of free tech support and the source code. So tell me what Microsoft's motivation would be to provide poor docs?
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
What exactly is the EU asking microsoft to provide?
F the EU. Like, MS should pull all MS licenses from everyone in the EU, then turn the courts against those entities. Let's see who makes more money per day for non-compliance.
This is more like the clash of two money-hungry giants then a case of victim and the such.
No, it's still extortion.
Don't you think that if Microsoft wants to do business in the European Union, it should do so by the laws of the EU? If Airbus, for example, was found to be violating US law, I would imagine the courts of the United States would demand compliance with the legal remedy.
Sure, in theory, government shouldn't meddle in the affairs of businesses. Unfortunately, businesses from time to time run afoul of laws. International businesses could surely forgo profits (and the hassle of dealing with governments they find intrusive) by chosing not to do business in certain markets. Since Microsoft has chosen to stay in the EU market, it seems they feel they can still make plenty of profit in Europe despite these government entanglements.
Freedom of choice. You chose to do business in the EU. Concurrently, you agree to comply with its laws.
This is about more than ensuring a competitive landscape. It's about making sure that Microsoft is not above the law. Regardless of whether you think the EU's initial decision was correct or incorrect, Microsoft is bound by the decision since it does business in the EU. Should any individual or business be allowed to simply disregard a verdict it feels is unfair? I don't want any individual to operate above the law, and I certainly don't feel comfortable when a multibillion-dollar company thinks it can flout the law, regardless of the jurisdiction.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
I wonder if Microsoft is richer than all of Europe?
EpiAdv - if you like Pokey the Penguin, try this comic!
One way to insure this is to forbid the sale of Microsoft Windows in Europe until the EC certifies that Microsoft is in compliance with all EC rulings. The EC would have the documentation next week.
Microsoft, however, contends it has gone above and beyond industry requirements for documentation.
I never knew there was such a thing as industry requirements for documentation.
-- Cheers!
I know Ms knows better then this, they were found guilty once again of doing something wrong, they are stalling and playing dumb once again as usual. Why can't they just grow up and take their punishment like a mature grown up would instead of a whiny cry baby. I can't believe they even tried to get help from our own courts. What in the world can the u.s. court do to convince another government legal system to change their mind? That is proof right there of my point. It really is who will back down first, will the eu give in or will Microsoft? I would love to see Microsoft pull out of Europe in protest, but no they wouldn't do that in the end they will cooperate. Appearently the EU can't be bought as easily as our system can. I mean damn Microsoft it's not like they are threatening to break you up or anything. Just do what they ask and move one like you do with every other lawsuit, punishment you ever have had against you which is what like no. 182,000.
I want spam! cranbers@gmail.com
I am european OSS enthusiast but am disguisted by the way EU acts. The mentality of european politicians is directly connected to the "sun king", Hitler and Stalin. They are elected by their deceived employees and are for all intents and purposes dictators. (The party that is willing to pay salaries for 30%-50% of the voting public has a bit of an advantage in the elections).
I predict that they will continue to milk MS until they can't get anything more. They are after money, not justice. The Media-free editions they forced on MS is a daft and stupid solution that does nothing good for anyone, least of all the consumer. It is only useful if you want to be able to say "no, not good enough, gimme gimme!"
To use an analogy more suited to this forum, the EU just said: "I am altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further".
The EU is the really bad guy here, MS is guilty of a misdemeanor in comparison.
thats what they should put into law if they are going to be this way. all software should only have a single function and be sold as a single package. otherwise u might be "packaging" extra functions that would hurt another companies product:P ugh...
ban car companies from selling cars with radios. its clearly hurting the after market sales of car stereos. its anticompetitive:P you don't need music to drive, its anticompetitive:P
this bs is purely political nonsense. a free stab at america
$@~! u europe
I fully agree with your sentiments - however I would like to point out that the EU is far greater than a mere 300 million people! It's more like 459 million people!
Why do they hate us so much?
You stopped selling products in Europe.
You denied tech support to companies/users in Europe.
You bought advertising stating why you're pulling out of the market.
Yes, but why do they hate us so much?
...now is a good time to write to our elected representatives, asking for a further push for FOSS. After all, when even the prospect of a multimillion dollar fine per day is not enough for Microsoft to provide these informations why should we trust them to run our governments' IT infrastructure? If Microsoft is not willing to deal with us on our terms we should make sure that in the future we don't have to deal with them as much as we do now.
If someone here has some experience with writing to MPs I'd appreciate some tips on how to write something that doesn't make you look like a rambling madman.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
Microsoft uses an internal API that is not openly documented. That's uncompetitive, which happens to be illegal when you're as big as Microsoft. What is the EU going to do in oeder to get Microsoft to comply? Issue a $100M fine? How cute. The only thing that might ever get Microsoft to cave in is constant pressure, which is what the EU are applying. And it's not like Microsoft provided a full documentation and then the EU said "we're not going to take it, give us more". An independent company checked the documentation and decided that it's nowhere near adequate.
If you don't think that a corporation should be fined more than once ever you can write to your MP.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
This caught my eye
and it rather seems to me that you may be a little confused. You may like to notice that the licenses which you want to see pulled were sold to the entities you want to see them pulled from - by Microsoft. They might buy them back if they wanted to stay legal. They might declare them to be void - if they wanted to commit fraud. But, per se, they can't pull them as the police might "pull" your driving license if you commit some offense.A Microsoft license is granted to allow you to legally use their software, and it is granted in exchange for money The only legal way for Microsoft to invalidate a license once they've sold it (apart from buying it back, which is against their religion since money with them is strictly a one way flow) would be to prove that the software user had violated the terms of that license. This would have to be done on an individual basis - since there is nothing in the license which forbids the user from:
They could, of course, threaten to leave Europe as they threatened to leave South Korea a short while ago. Last I heard they were still in Korea. But this threat would surely bring us to our knees. The last possibility (that I can think of) would have them quite simply obey the law of the land where they are doing business - something they might want to learn to do quickly, given the circumstances. But then, "MICROSOFT" and "QUICKLY" are contradictory terms , are they not?
How many beans make five, anyhow ?
"I always was a Windows user. But then suddenly Microsoft said that they won't sell Windows in the EU anymore. I was shocked, like, how'd I run all the new games? But then Apple made this special offer where European customers got 20% off and all the game companies announced that they'd release their stuff for the Mac and then I just thought: 'Why not?' After I got that Mac my gaming life definitively got better. I mean, it's so easy to use and you don't have to reinstall every half year. I also don't have to lug this huge box around to LAN parties. The iMac is like, just the monitor. My name is Jay Random and I'm a gamer."
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
France has nukes. France is in the EU. Therefore the EU has nukes. There is no nation in the world today who will directly mess with a nation or nation-equivalent that has nukes.
This means that the people in the vast bureaucracy that is today's EU can use whatever measures they please to bring Microsoft into compliance. Up to and including declaring their copyrighted, trademarked and/or patented assets public domain, raiding every Microsoft operation "for evidence" from the southernmost tip of Italy to the coldest, darkest Finnish Lapland and convicting Microsoft executives of economic conspiracy type crimes in absentia. (That last bit means "if they step their foot into the EU sphere while outside diplomatic immunity (hah, like that's going to happen), they get arrested and sent to jail without passing go and collecting $200". Quite nasty, and also quite extreme.)
Go EU Go.
The EU isn't a nation. There's no real government in Brussels except the one that runs Belgium. The EU is fundamentally a trading bloc. It's all about free trade within the Union, about common standards throughout the Single Market, and about acting as a representative of the collective member states in dealing with outside nations (e.g. the EU vs. the US in a trade war, rather than the US vs. 25 small countries, gets better results for us.)
So, when the US government gets on Microsoft's back over some trading standards issue, it's only part of their mandate. The US government has other things on its mind, like raising or lowering taxes, like foreign wars, like its policy on violent crime. The EU, on the other hand, doesn't have any of this other stuff. That's the business of the member state governments. Brussels is about trade and only trade - and so fighting with monopolists is not something it's going to go halves on.
Thus I do not expect the EU to cave in on this. They aren't a real government, and they don't have that much real power - but on this particular issue, they're exactly the ones for the job.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
The paradox is rather complex...
The European Commission is probably one of the biggest Ms users in Europe. Recently - last month -, Bill Gates was marketing Microsoft in Portugal with a strong support of the portuguese prime minister and the leader of the EC... this must mean something...
If the European leaders are as confused as their behaviour seems to indicate, Ms is just probably getting some more publicity for free!
So they submitted documentation to prove there documentation was valid?
One way or another - £$ is going down! The sooner the better.