Slashdot Mirror
Australians to Get Compulsory Photo ID Smartcard
syousef writes "The Sydney morning herald reports that a new national ID card will be issued in Australia."From 2010 people will not be able to receive government health and welfare payments without a card. People may choose to have other information stored on the card, such as health and emergency contact details which, for example, ambulance officers could use.". Your papers please."
If you've ever seen the famous German film M (which is made by Fritz Lang--the same director of Metropolis fame), you would recall the scenes in which people are asked for their papers and arrested if they don't have them or they are suspected to be fake. This is in an attempt to crack down on a child molester/murderer.
Why do I pick M and not some modern day movie that reflects this? Because as I watched M, I realized that Fritz Lang was probably commenting on the futility of that system of law enforcement although his audience probably watched it with a "that's just the way it works" attitude. How profound it was to see an act of injustice only to realize that when and where this movie was made it was not at all out of the norm.
I was born in 1982 so I'm sure I don't know the half of how 'papers' work but I do know that I have a social security card, two birth certificates (state and county) and a driver's license. Are these my papers? Maybe they could be construed as such but I highly doubt I would be arrested should I lack any of them. You will, of course, argue with me and tell me I would be considered an illegal alien without the birth certificates. I know this is true most places and I do fear for my country, the United States of America.
The article was very concerned with how much this would cost versus save the Australian government. The article was also very concerned about whether this would crack down on identity theft or make it easier to steal an identity. What I'm concerned about is what happens when you're a suspect of a crime that happened in proximity to you and you don't have your ID card? I'm also very concerned to see whether or not the Aboriginal peoples of Australia will be forced to carry this card.
Are the laws surrounding this card being mandated such that it would be very easy for law enforcement to abuse it? Will this give them an excuse to arrest whom ever they so choose? Identification is easily abused by both the identifiers and those being identified.
My work here is dung.
Oh - and the summary headline "Australians to Get Compulsory Photo ID Smartcard" seems to be incorrect. Quoting the linked article:My understanding is that Australia does have a reasonable health & welfare system, so thats a big carrot (stick?) to wave. But it's still not compulsory.
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
wo ist deine papieren bruce?
...implant it on the back of my hand? I don't want to have to remember to take it everywhere!
This card is not a full-blown id chip implant, but it is the first step.
I would be weary of the tracking of these cards.
You start people out on a mandatory ID card, then move to mandatory carrying of the card at all times, then you move to tracking the cards remotely, and then your actions/movements are no longer 'free.'
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
.. if you lose your hand. And that's exactly when they need your medical data..
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
Hmmm...
If you want to help lower greenhouse gas emissions, they conclude in a report to be published in the journal Earth Interactions, become a vegetarian.
Careful here: beans are vegetables too!
From 2010 people will not be able to receive government health and welfare payments without a card.
That's what they say now. But how long until people who decide they don't want gov't health and welfare benefits are singled out?
"You don't have a national ID card? Why not?"
"I don't want or need gov't health or welfare benefits."
"Why? Do you have something to hide? Guards!"
I know it's a kind of slippery slope argument. But seriously, has there ever been a government in this world that didn't screw up practically everything?
Why shouldn't inhabitants of a penal colony be forced to carry ID?
Aussies, you should be asking serious questions of your government.
This is what happens when you willingly give up your assault weapons!
I'm not terribly sure how all of this works now, but do you not have to show some sort of identification for welfare and such already? In one way this isn't that much different than drivers licenses, it's just consistent across a whole country. The article says right at the beginning that citizens won't have to carry it at all times, so it's not like a cop will randomly stop you and demand it, and then ship you off to the gulag if you can't produce it on the spot.
We're already issued identifications to hell and back. Between my drivers license and my social security number, there's probably a zillion people who have some sort of record of me.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Well then implant it in my wang. If I loose that, I don't want them to stop me dying.
This is a seriously rediculous statement. I understand the need for privacy, however I don't see how this is any more invasive than requiring a drivers license or a state ID or a passport to get certain benefits as well.
There is good reason for requiring identification for certain benefits to ensure that people don't abuse the system. As of right now, the USA doesn't have a "national ID card", however a drivers license is close enough. Police from any state can take your license and request all of your information.
This system not only simplifies that process, but allows you OPTIONALLY to put in more health and contact information to benefit you if you run into problems.
Passports, State ID Cards, Licenses, are all essentially the same thing. What the hell is the problem?
Nice to see Australians are still playing the "we're important too! look! look! we're asserting control over the population, just like the states, 'cos we're a big country as well" game.
Like other countries in question, does Australia really need something like this? Or are they just trying to be a try-hard US again?
What happens when a wallet gets stolen? How many hoops do you have to jump through to prove that you are who you say you are, so that you can get a new card? If I lose my credit card, I make a phone call and they cancel it and send me a new one - surely it wouldn't be that easy with some form of national identification.
And like the previous poster stated - how much longer before this really does turn into compulsory chipping (except in Wisconsin)? While I am not afraid of the government, and have nothing to hide, I'm not exactly enamoured by the idea of being required to have some form of absolute ID on me (or in me) at all times.
Where does this all end? Gattica had the nifty system of checking DNA for everything...will the Police officer someday just ask for a strand of hair? I like my bodily fluids, and I don't want to give them away, especially not for something as mundane as identification...it would be okay to give them to the proverbial "female".
Take it to the limit, everybody to the limit, come on, everybody fhqwhgads.
Hey, for 10 cents off per gallon, sometimes you do what you gotta do...
I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
Slashdot quotes Syousef, who quotes the newspaper. It's a quote-in-a-quote. Looks OK to me.
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
But if they find your hand, they will know who to return it to.
liqbase
I've debated other Libertarians on this issue, and the main point they can not refute is, "So what?"
In nearly all 50 of these United States, you are required to carry some form of ID, usually a driver's license. Once you cross state lines, your ID is no longer familiar to those who may want to look at it (airport ticket counter, liquor store cashier, hotel clerk, police officer, EMT) and thus becomes easier to forge. A national ID instead of 50 differnt state ID's could help prevent this sort of thing and make absolutely no difference people's lives, as we are all required to carry a state ID already.
I've carried a state ID for over 20 years, and I've never had anyone ask to see my papers.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
ok, fair enough. Nice summary, SYousef. Those last three words really added a lot.
-- Is "Sig" copyrighted by www.sig.com?
Excellent. After living in Australia for 6 years I've moved back to NZ. Whilst we do occasionally do ridiculous things wrt environmental issues, our general method of governance is much much `pre-9-11' (as people say ^_^). Maybe that's because we're an outdated backwater; but whatever the reason, at least we avoid lunacy like this. In case anybody doesn't know by now, we have also effectively banned any US ship from entering out waters (although how we do that is not something I agree with; we are `nuclear free' which, although prevents any US ship from visiting, also means we are nuclear free).
NZ is sort of like Amiga OS (or perhaps I should say *BSD? ^_~)... secure and free mostly by obfuscation and isolation =^_^=.
The Shoes of the Fisherman's Wife Are Some Jive Ass Slippers
"Mr. President! We must not allow a privacy-shaft gap!"
Thank you, Edward Snowden.
"Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
As has been repeatedly pointed out about the UK government's (well, a handful of senior members') insistence on introducing a 'voluntary' ID card, it's going to be a windfall for IT consultants if the debacle of the NHS patient database project is anything to go by. I'm polishing my golden wheelbarrow as I type. Quite fancy six months or so in Oz too.
Our prime minister has declared that its NOT an ID card, because its NOT compulsory. But if you want to access the health care system, you have to have it. So its not compulsory, but everyone has to have it.
In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
You tell me I'm over-concerned and I tell you I'm over-cautious. What happens when it becomes public mentality to think ill of someone who is "caught in public without their ID card"? I am concerned about the rights of the people and what this ID card is being sold to them as versus what it really is. Go ahead and call me foolish or "over the top" but any rights lost are rights rarely won back.
My work here is dung.
The problem with these smartcards, RFID, etc. is actually quite simple:
I can't choose not to provide a piece of info that's on it.
If they had a way for me to control which information from them I want to reveal, there would be much less trouble, I'm sure. Then I could have a single ID card with all my financial, medical, etc. info on it, but you only get whatever I explicitly give you.
And no, implementing that in the clients, say programming the doc's computer so it only reads the medical data, is not good enough.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
My work here is dung.
This is nothing new at all. Back in 1990 my debate team had a rebuttle argument called "meat." It went like this.
1. Your project creates more wealth.
2. Wealthy people eat more beef.
3. The rain forests are cut down for more pasture to raise more cows.
4. The reduction in rainforests causes global warming.
5. Global warming causes famine.
6. Famine causes nuclear war.
7. Henceforth your plan (help the homeless, old people, whatever) causes nuclear war.
Nobody actually won any debate using it, but a foolish opponent might waste time on it.
Don't you know it can be sown back on?
Just keep a hold of it, and freeze it.
Maybe it's because there's no better way to file this, but this seems to be less "Your Rights Online" and more "Your Rights in the Real World." Just an observation.
Slashdot: 24 hours behind every other site or your money back!
Guns won't help you out in America.
If you used your guns to try and take on the government you'd be labelled as a terrorist and have most of your country out for your blood. Comparing the EU to Nazi Germany... Well, you've just invoked Goodwins Law.
This PM promised that there would never be a GST, so saying it's not an ID card does not suprise anyone in Oz. Just because he doesn't call it an ID card, doesn't mean that it doesn't function like one. An Election is due in a year so let the voters decide.
There was an unknown error in the submission.
On the one hand, it does seem like a convenient way to hold all our information in regards to medicare, concession cards etc.
On the other, I feel uneasy about having so much personal information about myself stored on one card. I mean no doubt, someone will find a way to gain access to this information if they steal someones card, and once they have, identity theft is bound to occur. Computer chips aren't foolproof. There's bound to be at least one person out there that will be able to break through any barriers that the government try to implement for "security".
It also makes me wonder, if someone doesn't have an ID card yet, and they need welfare payments urgently, what happens? Eg. Holly Housewife, 34, doesn't work, 3 kids, husband is killed in car accident. No life insurance. She needs pension, but doesn't have ID card. How long will she have to wait before getting benefits? Will she have to wait through the process of getting an ID card, and then the process of being approved for payments, or will the government be nice enough to start payments straight away, because it's a desperate situation?
And my guess is, that as time goes on, more information may have to be added to the card, making it more and more like a Bug Brother type of scenario. I mean, it already has enough information on there for it to be that. Plus they say, you won't have to carry it on you all the time. But honestly, nearly everyone carries their medicare and concession cards on them all the time, "just in case". Seeing as this new SmartCard will be replacing those, wouldn't it be stupid to not be carrying it anyway?
So far, however, the Government has not made it very clear which of the various cards are being replaced with this one, so we'll see how that goes. So far, their record leaves a lot to be desired.
Bruce Schneier wrote an op-ed a couple years back on why a national ID doesn't offer any more security. Interesting reading, to say the least: http://www.schneier.com/essay-034.html
So, what's the problem? I have a Social Security card in the US. It is government mandated "papers" I'm required to have. And with these papers, I have presented them all of 0 times in my life to a government official. I'm sure I have the card around somewhere, but it isn't asked for during any interaction with the government, and I certainly don't keep it on me. This card doesn't seem much different. It is *not* a universal government ID. It is documentation for services, just like a SS card in the US. It will never be asked for by the police or other such officials. It is a health insurance card. Why is it unreasonable to expect that your health provider ask for your health insurance card? There have never been any government abuses of such cards in the past there, nor anywhere else in the world. This is not a national ID, was never intended to be a national ID, and will never be used as a national ID.
Learn to love Alaska
In Belgium, we already have ID-cards which contain a chip and a photo and other details printed on it.
...
The chip can do RSA with two keys, one for signatures, one for authentication.
It also contains all the information that is printed on the card (and more, especially stuff that is subject to change, like your address) in digital format.
And there's a law that everyone (above a certain age, I think 12 years old) has to carry this card with him/her at all times.
It's however not yet that integrated with other things, eg. it doesn't (yet) contain your driver's license,
But it the future, that will certainly happen.
Take a country with no borders so you don't have to deal with foreigners for the following bit.
If a country had a totally free healthcare system where each person gets the medical aid they need. What need would that country have of an ID system for medical care.
That is right. None. The only ID system needed would be to identify a persons medical history but that can be anonymous. You could carry your medical history with you without it being tied in name to your person.
There is a reason most countries don't have truly free medical care. It is expensive and requires the majority of people to pay for medical care they don't personally receive.
It is socialism and socialists have high tax bills. That doesn't get you elected anymore.
So we come up with other systems all of wich involve the simple fact that now we need to attach financial info to the medical history. Who received what for how much and how are they going to pay for it. Or even better, how have they already paid for it. Your medical insurance company is going to want to know for certain that it is you getting the medical threatment they are paying for and not some stranger.
Well actually they don't really give a shit. You do because else your insurance costs would sky-rocket.
Do you know how much of your car insurance goes into a general pool that is used by all insurers to cover people without insurance? Yeah, that is right. Your paying for that asswipe who has no car insurance. Nice eh?
Oh you want something done about that? What like an ID card?
If you want to limit something to a select group you need to be sure who belongs in that group and who does not. An ID card is nothing more then an account. Notice how slashdot only gives certain privileges to people who ID themselves and denies them if you forget them. Even worse, it keeps a complete record of your posting history!
ID cards are inevitable unless we choose to accept the price of anonymity.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Britian is getting a similar (but more all consuming scheme) and the problem is thus. My driving liscense has my driving deatials, my National Insurance number has my tax and benfits attched to it, my NHS number has my medical details etc etc. If someone wants to totally compromise my identity then they have a hard job doing so. With the sooper dooper identity card I get all of my information placed on a single point of failure. The database will be compromised by people working for the central identity agency. The data will get corrupted, incorrect data will be erroneously entered, and instead of all of the these problems affecting one aspect of my life my entire identity is fucked.
The problem is not the card, it's the vast database that sits behind it. I fucking bet EDS will get the contract for it as well.
Actually perhaps giving the police ballpoint pens was a bad idea because *it means your actions/movements are no longer 'free.'* !!!!
:-)
Ballpoint pen = capturing information = misuse of information = tracking people = end of civilization as we know it, OMG! don't give up the assault rifles!
Of course nationality is optional, nobody is stopping you from moving to somewhere with no government, like Somalia. Or even voting out your present government...
Yes, you should never mistake them. Nazi Germany was smaller.
Nazi Europe is BIG.
As Slashdotters, you'll all be aware that one of the fundamental requirements of a secure transaction is to be able to validate someone is who they say they are. How can you do that without some kind of ID card? Get this - in the UK if you go to open a bank account, they ask you for a gas bill! You can phone up your gas company, ask them to add any name you want to the bill, and then take the resulting bill into a bank and use it as proof of address! Or if you want to claim social security benefits, you just need to take in your birth certificate. But the ink washes off old birth certificates, I kid you not. And yet many people in the UK have an almost rabid passion about their right not to have an official means to identify themselves. Sorry, but I just don't get it.
who is planning that? I would like to get specs etc. as fast as possible :)
or be part of the discussion on how the card will be. Countries like
Estonia and Belgium did choose OpenSC open source software as basis
for using their cards, and that would be a good choice for Australia, too.
(Of course I'm biased being on of the OpenSC developers
just my .02 - heres the current situation for say... old age pensioner (Male 65 or over assets below 157000 exluding primary home and income less then 30000 pa) he goes to the dentist... he has to take the follwoing things so he can afford it - his Pension card (welfare) his medicare card AND a centrelink income statement... now working for DSS (aka centrelink) i experience this on a daily basis.. the pensioner gets to the dentist, forgot his pension card and dosent have an income statement.. pay pretty much full price unless he can get them down there - however the new smart card will allow the dentist to not only check instantly weather his is eliegble for discount (concession card and income statement could be requested over the net using the card as proof of id) and the medicare details... in short easier for the pensioner and less work for all parties involved...
I think its a great idea ... Storing all your medical data in one place can mean great advances in treatment times and blatant wastes of times .. obviously the privacy conservatists will be against it ... but they should learn that its going to happen anyway and its better to embrace something and realise that bitching and moaning isnt going to get you anywhere.
very conformist ideals I know .. but meh the old addage you cant beat em .. join em .. comes to mind
CoBy
lol - you are so Swiss. No way anyone is going to confuse you with a gun toting 'cause the constitution says so' \Amerikan/ As an Australian....I think this stinks. Dean
But if you lose your ID (hand) you won't have any proof (ID) that you are who you say you are. You'll have to get some different ID... in which case, what use was the original ID (hand)?
Apart from the obvious holding cutlery, changing gears, opening bottles of wine, etc.
the layman's guide to computer science
uh, now what?
They'd better keep all those paper-based systems in place!
But since the card came out I kinda forgot where all those unimportant papers were... Tell ya what, let me just create a new identity. Once I get a card for it, no questions will be asked.
The higher the trust is in a system, the deeper the deception that is possible.
... the Home Secretary, who continues to support the idea of an ID card and biometric database, has recently admitted that over a thousand criminals who are not UK citizens have been released from prison without being deported, and that he has no idea where most of them are.
I offer this as a counter-argument to those who might suggest that if you're innocent, you have nothing to fear. Never, ever underestimate the ability of politicians and bureaucrats to f*ck things up.
Perhaps the fact that you have a bloody stump where your hand was would be a good indicator.
liqbase
Boy, I'm glad we in America, Land of the Free, don't have mandatory ID cards.
Except for the Social Security one.
And the driver's license one.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
"So basically we have 50 different national ID cards."
The U.S. Congress recently passed the REAL ID Act of 2005 (by attaching it to a military spending bill), which mandates federal requirements for driver's licenses. Fundamentally, it makes driver's licenses into de facto national IDs.
So basically, you'll have 50 all-but-identical national ID cards, with the only real difference being the name of the state across the top and inconsequential things like the color of the card.
Coming soon to a state near you...
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
What's the point of making ridiculous, fear based points that are factually incorrect (apart from karma whoring)?
About 85% of Americans have health insurance, with around 70% being private health insurance.
Nowhere in your post does it mention the option of having your health care provider pay for your services, which is what I and every member of my family have done since I can remember.
Please stop modding people up when they're clearly doing nothing but playing to the crowd. This guy is fear mongering himself, and shouldn't be rewarded for it.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
What about in the USA where the per capita rate of incarceration is the highest in the world, what sort of ID should the Americans be carrying????
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
I live in Belgium and I have with me my identity card and my "SIS" card. The first has been asked by me once when police where looking for somebody. It seemed they were looking for somebody who looked like me.
Instead of taking me to the station and all the tests, they just chaecked my papers and all was well.
The other I use if I am at a docter, or buy prescribed medicene. It is there so I get money back. Both are now with a chip set. Want to read what is on them? http://www.belgium.be/zip/eid_datacapture_fr.html Indeed, source code is aailable.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Maybe we should refer to ourselves as "land of the long smug cloud". At least you never mentioned "ahead of the curve...". Im starting to wish we had a military, if george clooney ever gets close to NZ we might have to shoot him down to avert a catastrophy.
why not just create a Certificate Authority for the Federal Government? Then mandate that all driver's licenses and passports have a smart chip with a certificate signed by the government and your own personal public key, also signed by the government. A separate card could be issued with your private key on it. As a backup, encode the certificate for the ID card in a barcode on the back, so your ID can be verified even if the chip fails.
If you want to get rid of the separate card for the private key, come up with an algorithm for hashing other biometric data to make a private key: retinal scan and/or thumbprint.
If properly implemented, there would be two virtues to this system. The first is, after the initial check by the issuer that the issuee is who they say they are, no central database query is need to authenticate the ID. Each ID reader just needs a copy of the government's public key. After almost 10 years of Web Browser PKI experience, this system should be well-understood. The second virtue is, if every citizen has a public and private key pair, then check and credit card fraud could be eliminated. Those systems currently rely on insecure methods like written signatures, very short pins, or codes on the back of the physical cards. It would also be possible to easily encrypt e-mail, keep phone calls private, and transmit legally binding electronic documents.
Bruce Schneier points out that any ID card system will be flawed from the start because there is a human element in issuing and checking ID's. Biometrics and PKI would help, but perhaps not enough. At the very least, my proposal wouldn't be a worse ID system then we currently have, and actually provides two possible benefits we didn't have before. On the other hand, governments don't like strong encryption in the hands of citizens, so we would have to watch for backdoors in the system. There may also be a concern with the fact that your public key can now tie you to your various activities. Of course, this is pretty much the case now. Though, there are many virtues to a world where PKI is widely used.
======
In X-Windows the client serves YOU!
"And yes, in some european countries it is mandatory to have your ID card with you when you leave the house. I don't think you'll be arrested for not having it, at least I've never heard of that happening after WW2."
I'm no geography whiz, but Colorado is not in Europe, as far as I know.
Thanks for the completely unrealted story though. It was a good read, but you should have paid attention to the part where THEY GAVE HER A TICKET. She wasn't arrested.
So apart from being an entirely different continent, and the lady not being arrested, your point is a decent one.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
It depends on how they're going to be used. Like most things, they could be used for good or evil. It seems like the Australian one might end up being harmless, since it doesn't really contain any more information than our drivers licenses currently do. It is a waste of money, though, since we already have the drivers licenses, and special identity cards for people who do not drive.
The other thing to keep in mind with all of these cards is that if they're convenient for you, they're probably also convenient for identity thieves. You don't sound like you've ever become a victim of identity fraud, but it is something to keep in mind. You never know when you're going to lose your wallet or forget your "everything card"...
I would think that the best thing to do, in terms of security, would be spreading identity across multiple cards so that no card is all-powerful. It's a bit like not using the same password for every website.
If you had, you'd have seen this
"In a 5-to-4 opinion written by Justice Anthony Kennedy, the Court ruled that the search did not violate the Fourth Amendment because it was based on reasonable suspicion"
REASONABLE SUSPICION. That is different from "no reason".
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
Few people seem aware of it, but the currently undefined US federal gov't "requirements" for state driver's licenses are a de facto nat'l ID card. The federal "RealID" requirements can be changed at a whim by the federal gov't to require whatever data the feds deem worthy.
Some, however, are resisting that blatant violation of the 10th Amendment. In New Hampshire there is a citizen's group which is lobbying against the US nat'l ID program. A NH bill has been proposed, HB1582, which calls on the state to reject the federal RealID requirements, and it just passed the state legislature's Senate Public and Municipal Affairs committee unanimously.
While it is still undecided whether resistance is or is not futile, some people are standing up and being counted.
if you dont think that kind of thing goes on here in the USA, read this story about a women who was put in jail because she did not show her "papers" on a public bus while not breaking any laws... http://www.papersplease.org/davis/index1.html
No, you don't need to go on, you've established quite clearly that you're a rambling idiot.
Don't discount how polarizing this will be for many Americans. The groudswell of resistance will cause the idea to fail politically before it can be implemented.
I used to manage a company in the mid-South. When we tried to eliminate physical paychecks and go to mandatory direct deposit, there was a near-strike among the workforce. Main argument was biblical - "linking me with all those numbers is the first step toward being marked with the sign of the beast."
Yeah they forgot that even with paper checks the company reported pay data to the IRS. But the resistance was emotional, visceral, and strong.
Even using DNA for identity checking is not infalible. I watched an interesting documentary last night on Chimerism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimerism. One poor woman almost had her children taken away from her by the state because multiple DNA tests said they weren't hers. Turns out she had a very rare disorder called chimerism and had more than one set of DNA. It may not be as rare as once thought since some people have no visible symptoms and more cases are turning up now that DNA testing is more common.
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
This is a very specific plan to require people who are receiving government benefits to be able to demonstrate that they are who they claim to be. Don't like it? Don't participate. If you want the benefits, you have to play by the rules.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
That site says nothing about ID cards. The guy wouldn't give his name.
I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
TFA says, when people could apply for it, and when it will be available, but there is no word "compulsory" in the article anywhere... Is it really going to be more invasive than the driver licenses already are?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
IBM did quite well in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s.
At least for some of us, the "outrage" is a reaction to changes in the US government's priorities - not some inborn fear of reliable identification. Compare today's restrictions and prohibitions with the political landscape and climate of 1990. The war on anonymity has resulted in laws and abuses of executive power that are well beyond what most people expected, IMHO. The overarching power of corporations' short-term interests is more brazen and pervasive. There is apparently no limit on what our lawmakers can force into place if "it's for the children" or "it's necessary in the fight against terrorism."
/>
< grrr
I thought the Australians had already rejected the idea of a national ID card (and associated unified database) outright?
Is this the Australian government pulling a flanker on the Australian electorate?
Summarize useful points
...
1. You already likely have ID cards
2. Consolidating them makes it easier to issue, revoke and update
3. Single point of failure, usually in the lowest-bidder implementation of the DB backend
4. 1984 was 22 years ago. Get over it.
I'm personally in favour of a single ID card which replaces the SSN [or SIN for us cannucks], Health Card, Drivers License, Firearms License, etc.
It just makes sense that there be some sort of DB capable of holding a few keys about each citizen somewhere in a country with a GDP of several hundred BILLION DOLLARS!!!
30 million people x say 1MB each [how much does storing your life take?] is only 29.2TiB of storage. Spread that over the 13 provinces/territories and you'd see it's rather trivial to manage. Even if you keep detailed records of the dead for ~5 years you're still taking less than 40TiB of storage. In terms of the new 700GB Seagates that is 26 million dollars worth of storage. Keep in mind the Canadian government has spent two billion on the gun registry alone
Now compare the [say tech+staff] 50 million dollars the federal government would spend on this plan to the dozens of independent and woefully illequipped agencies managing small pockets of your ID as it is.
It's probably easily a three-fold reduction in cost.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
The UK government are trying to introduce all-encompassing ID cards at the moment.
ID cards are useful - I'd agree that while having all your information in one place can be handy, it surely makes fraudulent use easier if you can thereby carry everything you need to "authenticate" several different identities.
While many of the UK government's reasongings may be considered spurious, combatting terrorism and suchlike, they have provided one convincing argument, namely that that "biometric nonsense" ensures that each person has only _one_ ID, whether it's "false" or not, thereby preventing multiple IDs. It shouldn't be possible to register multiple IDs if a simple biometric database search links each of them.
Clearly the solution is to have chips implanted in both hands.
I'm an Australian. Most people posting comments above are not (a couple are). There are many confused or simply wrong statements being made. This new National ID card is the least intrusive attempt at one yet (there have been 2 previous attempts over the last 10 years).
So here are some answers to questions from above:
From 2010 people will not be able to receive government health and welfare payments without a card.
This statement, although true, is misleading. A MediCare card is required right now to receive gov health benefits. Welfare payments can only be paid to a person who can prove their identity and legal status. ie. birth-certificate required and "proof of age" card. This "National ID card" is nothing more than a unification of a system that has been in place for 20 years.
Perhaps the Prime Minister, John Howard is unaware that the London Bombers were all British citizens...
John Howard is a shifty little monarch who has a double-sided tongue. Before him, we had the greatest economist that ever lived, but because he was a social retard, people voted him out. Little Johnny is, sadly, now the best we've got.
Too bad you gave up your weapons
I can walk into a gun club right now (ok, when the shops are open) and order all sorts of guns and ammunition. I have to have a pretty good reason to take a gun out of a registered club though (eg. if I'm a farmer, a licensed shooter etc.). Psychopaths can't buy guns. Anybody with criminal (not property-related) felony-level convictions can't buy guns (DUI etc doesn't count). This is a good thing. We don't like small civil wars breaking out, like they do in the U.S. Besides, what good is a gun? It won't save me from having to pay taxes.
I have a Drivers License.
I have a MediCare card.
I have a Credit-Card whose every transaction over $100 gets reported to the Federal Government.
My Government does not ask me to be a certain religion. It does not ask me where my parents are from, or who I choose to call friends. It does not dictate how (or even if) I should school my children. It does not question my sexual orientation, nor judge me on it. Aside from preserving cultural heritage, it is not interested in the colour of my skin.
I am dependant on my Government continuuing to identify me as an Autralian Citizen whenever I may stand in need of help. I am 29 and I grew up with all these things. I have no problem with the National ID Card. I believe I am more free than most.
I believe I am more free than most, but more importantly; I am happy.
"yout you ahve laws taht meen one can be arested and put in jail prity much permently without trial.."
I think I agree with this. Or not.
Who can tell? I think he is saying there is no law against putting cheese in your shoe. Except in France.
Yet now, in Ohio, you can be arrested if you don't show identification to a cop whenever he wants it.
Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
Australia Card 2010 edition ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Card ) Well a step toward it maybe.
personally I dont care, most Aussies have a medicare card, a tax file number, probably a drivers license, a probably a social security number, and some a passport. but i'm sure theres a bunch of reasons why this is a Bad Thing (tm)
Not a big student of history, are you? Mandatory government ID is one link in a chain (a big one), and so is disarmament of the populace. The ability to own guns is an index of freedom, just like the ability to go where you please or associate with whomever you want.
The point is, it's all a gradual progression towards a totalitarian government if left unchecked. Each step doesn't seem like a big deal, and a nanny state provides enough benefits that citizens are lulled into thinking it's a good tradeoff. But in the end you get Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. running the show, and all of a sudden the fact that every citizen is in a big database doesn't seem so fantastic, but by then it's too late.
...that's the problem. As others have attested, IDs are compulsory in other countries. There's nothing wrong with this per se.
However, the proposed Australian smart card also has the chip-related issues. Reports here (I'm in Australia, so I'm following this closely) are suggesting that the card will carry far more than just ID-related information, but medical records as well. There's nothing stopping access to these by non-authorised people. By 'non-authorised', I mean for instance your physiotherapist's receptionist may be able to view your medical records from your doctor (do you want your physiotherapist's receptionist knowing that you are anti-depressants or have been tested (with a positive result) for an STD?).
This is what a real concern is - the collation of various national databases into a single source, which is accessible to all who have access to the card information. So far there's been nothing said to my knowledge that this isn't the case.
Then there's, of course, the not-so-hidden references to how the security forces will be able to access all data, if needed. Fine, if that's necessary, go ahead, but the Australian Government should not pretend that the card isn't a full ID card with biometric information and with full record access.
As has been pointed out by others, one will need a smart card for accessing government services. This not only includes health and welfare services, but taxation services as well apparently. In other words, if one needs to file a tax return, one must have a card. If you don't need the government welfare and Medicare services, you will certainly need to file a tax return (unless your income is all illegal, which means you'll come to the authorities' attention by other means).
I'm not being paranoid, but I don't feel comfortable with such broad information being available on a single card. Either way, the Government should just come out and be honest (for once...) about what the card really is.
I heard that your library burnt down and destroyed your only two books - and one was not even coloured in yet.
hang on, this is essentially a medicare card , not a gestapo ticket. what part of "but will not be forced to carry it at all times" doesn't click here? the good part is "The new "smart card" will contain "enhanced security" and replace 17 existing cards" so I would think that makes identity theft harder. given that as an australian citizen I'll have to carry one, it's not that big a deal. in fact, if it could be used as a drivers licence as well, or a student ID, so much the better. I don't see an ID card- of which I already carry two- as a "huge threat to civil liberties" On a darker note, terrorist search powers are pretty big anyway, so I don't see what a card will do in a fight against terror.
Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home!
They're not for taking out the government. They're supposed to be for stopping the government (or anyone else) from taking you out, usually in terms of defending your property. I think the Swiss got it right when it somes to guns.
The 'Net is a waste of time, and that's exactly what's right about it. - William Gibson
Most european nations have had what you americans would call "ID cards" for decades if not centuries.
Centuries?? Pray tell how they were making ID cards before the invention of photography?
(In all fairness, it's possible, but non-photo documents tend not to carry the burden that photo documents do.)
In reality, the European ID card adoption began, as I recall, in Belgium during World War I--basically as a type of internal passport (which was also created in Europe during WWI.) Based on the fact that they were development of both were related to each other, and that the passport was introduced for (get ready for it) to prevent "espionage" (the idea that spies couldn't get valid documents) I can only surmise that the Belgian ID card was introduced with similar justification.
ID documents and passports were not well received, as Europeans were horrified by the idea of requiring documentation to cross borders. It is my understanding that promises were made to eliminate the documents post WWI, though those promises were not kept. (This is not to say that Europeans universally had ID documents post WWI--quite a lot of immigrants to Ellis Island arrived with not a single piece of paper.)
Like anything, Europeans became accustomed to them and don't question them much any more (though quite a lot of the purposes a European would use an ID card for are done fraud free without ID cards in other countries. ID cards in many countries serve a bureaucratic purpose, but this is hardly necessary.)
I guess my main question is, if they are so useful and uncontroversial...why would you be forced to obtain one?
ol - you are so Swiss. No way anyone is going to confuse you with a gun toting 'cause the constitution says so' \Amerikan/ As an Australian....I think this stinks.
Don't all Swiss men have to attend compulsory military service, generally featuring training in usage of the FASS 90? And doesn't the country have one of the largest militias in the world, most of whom keep their rifles at home?
I would say that many Swiss are "gun toting" due to the requirement that the militia be able to be mobilised in 12 hours.
This is a very specific plan to require people who are receiving government benefits to be able to demonstrate that they are who they claim to be. Don't like it? Don't participate. If you want the benefits, you have to play by the rules.
As it currently stands; you can't just walk into centrelink and say "Hi, I'm Joe Blow of that place across the street, now give me something". You need to be able to prove your identiy as it is.
This effects the same number of people who have medicare cards; i.e. almost all of them. Given enough time even an idiot can see how it will become the default ID card
Swiss probably tote more guns than Americans, pro capita. There's at least one assault weapon in every home.
The funny thing is, can you imagine if passports were a new idea?
They are a relatively new idea, and people just have a short attention span. They were only introduced in WWI (to the horror of just about everyone) promises were made to eliminate the documents after the war (which weren't kept) and it wasn't until WW2 that you really needed one to travel worldwide. (Quite a lot of the immigrants to Ellis Island had not a piece of paper on em.)
I cite the passport, and the ensuing cult of documentation to travel, as the biggest loss of liberty and freedom in the 20th century. Our acceptance/resignation of the idea that you need documentation and permission to cross borders is shameful.
I may add though that the original justification for passports during WWI was to "prevent espionage." Apparently spies couldn't get valid documents. Having done quite a lot of research into photo ID cards, the justifications for them usually range from stupid to assinine--and today we would be much more sophisticated (thanks to security knowledgeable audiences like Slashdot) to weed out the dumb arguments.
Or Driving Licenses: "New Compulsory Photo ID required just to operate vehicles!"
Photo driver's licenses are also fairly new and weren't as uncontroversial as you suggest. Most Americans didn't have one until the early 1980s. The justification for the photo license was also flimsy (the Ohio BMV, in 1974 said it was for "better identification" though police in Ohio didn't feel it was necessary.)
Well into the late 1970s there were a variety of attempts to make the photo optional on the Ohio license or to eliminate it completely. There was a pretty good amount of unhappiness about it. Several states maintained photo optional licensing until after 9/11 (like Vermont, Tennessee and New Jersey, though only Tennessee retains it today for the elderly.)
Like passports, attempts to introduce photo ID cards today would be met with much more sophisticated arguments against, particularly because the justification for them was so lackluster to begin with.
I hypothesize, based on factual and anecdotal information, that the creation of the photo driver's license coincides with the push by Polaroid of its instant color photo technology, which was too expensive for most Americans, but which they could sell successfully to state DMVs for ID card issuance. (An ex Polaroid employee, who founded a group against National ID cards, told me that Polaroid's color instant photo process, was given a special national security exemption, and its patent lasted twice as long as normal patents do.)
"Employer-sponsored health insurance premiums"
The employer is paying that, not the individual.
THIS is what you should have looked at
"This year, workers on average contribute $558 of the $3,695 annual premium cost of single coverage and $2,661 of the $9,950 cost of premiums for family coverage."
2661 dollars for family coverage. 558 dollars for individaul coverage. Aroud 220 dollars a moth for a family.
And no, not even remotely near a mortgage.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
"he is totally reliant on the generosity of his company for this to continue."
a rchives/income_wealth/002484.html
My insurance is compensation. Part of an intelligent job search is finding one that has compensation that satisfies you.
"as has already been stated, 30% of Americans are without health coverage"
Nobody stated that, and it's wrong. The number isn't 30%, it's around 15-18%.
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
Here are the key points from the article, for those who seem to be having comprehension problems.
* a photo identity card
* you don't have to have one, or need to carry it if you do have it
* only for Medicare and welfare payments
* replace 17 EXISTING "dumb"cards!!
* used to check identities for immigration and security purposes and to crack down on fraud.
* cost $1 billion, but save $3 billion a year.
* the idea is welcomed by non-paranoid types and rejected by those who are paranoid (have a irrational fear of persecution by authority).
* both sides of politics support the idea in principle.
The irony of the paranoid anti-card arguments is that Melbourne Australia has the largest group of Holocaust survivors outside of Israel and there is no mention of that community's opinion! Given the card will help to protect them from terrorists that would like to finish the Holocaust that the Nazis started, I doubt the Jewish Australian community would be against such a card, but maybe somebody should ask them what they think.
The current problem with the existing 17 types of "dumb" cards is that they allow widespread petty parasitism on the Australian welfare system and that fraud adds up to billions of dollars each year, which the honest majority of Australians have to fund through high taxation. It is the price they currently pay for having one of the best and most inclusive medical/welfare systems in the world. If you are kind, there will always be some pest that wants to suck you dry. The card is a balancing act between the need to have a humane society (i.e. one that is better than the USA) and the need to protect yourself from evil people.
--
http://dan.3-e.net/
The first paragraph of the article explains why these are a good idea. Seventeen cards in common use--by one government. Take the United States where we have as many, then add fifty-one different driver's licenses, multiplied by however many versions of each are in circulation at any point in time (they're good for a very long time).
I have had a passport for decades, so this nonsensical chicken-little crap about a "national ID card" just makes me guffaw--and I use that passport as my de facto primary ID for employment, opening bank accounts, writing/cashing checks, notarizing documents, applying for financing--and, yes, identifying myself to police on the rare occasion I am compelled to. I welcome things like biometrics and memory chips in those documents because I've had passports stolen before when you could just, with some skill, swap the photo and no one would be the wiser. Adding these electronic measures narrows the number of people who could make use of such documents to a much, much smaller number of people and that's a good thing.
This knee-jerk reaction to the word "biometric" is also rather silly. You have had biometrics in everything from driver's licenses to passports for decades: height, weight, hair color, ethnicity or for that matter the PHOTO? Those are ALL biometrics. Adding "distance between eyes and from eyes to chin" is not a huge departure from those--and for legal purposes, those data are just simple measurements ("metrics" if you will), not DNA, so calm down.
Once you cross state lines, your ID is no longer familiar to those who may want to look at it (airport ticket counter, liquor store cashier, hotel clerk, police officer, EMT) and thus becomes easier to forge.
Well...sorta. It's true that document unfamiliarity plays a role in passing a bad document.
On the other hand, there appears to be a logarithmic function regarding the quantity of documents issued and card fraud. For instance, there are about 3 times as many California card holders as Ohio card holders, and the California state ID/DL is several times more complex to forge than an Ohio one, yet, California probably deals with 10 times the fraud issue that Ohio does. If the California card were 100x more difficult to counterfeit, the problem would still be the same.
Every extra DMV employee that is necessary adds a new avenue for potential fraud (as does every extra DMV office.) If you presume that California has as many forgers per person as Ohio does, then that implies at least 3x the extra effort going into the counterfeiting the California card than the Ohio card. That is, however, not true, because the California license is a "marquee" document, so far more people are networking and synergizing their efforts at figuring out how to forge that card in comparison to the Ohio card.
This same principle obviously applies to green cards and passports. Doesn't matter how amazingly difficult to counterfeit they are, the best forgers in the world are working on them at this very second. Can you imagine how they would work on a National ID card...or how many fraud avenues would be available with the (estimated) 30,000 ID card issuing employees? (There are, to be fair, some synergies available with US driver's license documents. Only a handfull of technologies are used...so if you can forge a New York DL, you're pretty much 2/3rds on the way to forging a California DL.) ID cards are also not Picassos. For a forger to forge a painting, they need to have a pretty close relationship with it, which is often difficult because there's only one painting available for them to examine (likely protected in many different ways.) However, with ID cards, the Picasso to forge is right in your pocket, and is easily examined.
Incidentally, the US bureau of engraving and printing realizes the uglyness of this situation, and has never claimed that money is uncounterfeitable. Their only goal is to stay "one step ahead" of counterfeiters. However, for the ID card system to work, at a cultural level, we need to believe in a functionally impossible cult of uncounterfeitability. Every new driver's license is introduced claiming it was just as uncounterfeitable as the previous one.
Pro capita, the Swiss probably have more guns than Americans.
"If nearly a third of the population can't afford that,"
If that were true, you'd be right. Had you read my link, however, you'd realize that only 15-18% don't have insurance, not a third (and please, stop saying 30% is a third, it's not, and it's obvious hyperbole).
The point is, and was, and will continue to be, THE ORIGINAL POSTER GAVE TWO OPTIONS AND I REFUTED HIM WITH FACTS. If you want to discuss the fairness and effectiveness of the current healthcare system, do that. I won't be taking part.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
The issuing of the first British Passports predates the existence of the United States by more than 350 years.
;-)
I should have added that I'm only talking photo passports, which are used like passports are today.
There were other types of passports introduced prior to WWI which had a variety of semi-related uses (the British ones you mention were more ambassadorial/diplomatic in nature--indicating that the King wanted the traveller "recognized.") As Wikipedia notes, passports have indeed existed since medieval times, but their usage was not akin to passports of today. (Those documents were not for tracking or class identification (identification as a citizen of a nation-state) but more for protection of the citizen, recognition of his status as a traveller, et cetera.)
They are pre-cursors of modern passports, and certainly were influential in their adoption/design, but are arguably too different to claim that they're the same document.
(The US most definitely did not invent the passport, either pre-modern or modern. Abominations like that only come from you Europeans.
Now explain why, in your original post, you gave two otions, and failed to mention insurance?
It's pretty damned obvious to me that I've answered every single one of your questions, refuted every single one of your points, and have shown you that private insurance is prevalent and viable as a healthcare option.
You STILL haven't explained why you made an ill informed, factually incorrect, hyperbolic statement. All you've done is change the subject and move the goalposts.
So up to your original, WRONG, statement please. I've answered every single one of your questions as honestly as I can, and it's about god damned time the people who post on this web board spreading false and grossly misleading information be held to some accountability.
Or you can just admit you were trolling and we can move on.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
my debate team had a rebuttle argument called "meat."
Seems a decent limits-to-growth sort of argument, perhaps simplified somewhat. Not sure if it's relevant all the time though.
"Every citizen of Annexia was required to apply for and carry on his person at all times a whole portfolio of documents. Citizens were subject to be stopped in the street at any time; and the Examiner, who might be in plain clothes, in various uniforms, often in bathing suit or pyjamas, sometimes stark naked except for a badge pinned to his left nipple, after checking each paper, would stamp it. On subsequent inspection the citizen was required to show the properly entered stamps of the last inspection. The Examiner, when he stopped a large group, would only examine and stamp the cards of a few. The others were then subject to arrest because their cards were not properly stamped. Arrest meant "provisional detention"; that is, the prisoner would be released if and when his Affidavit of Explanation, properly signed and stamped, was approved by the Assistant Arbiter of Explanations. Since this official hardly ever came to his office, and the Affidavit of Explanation had to be presented in person, the explainers spent weeks and months waiting around in unheated offices with no chairs and no toiled facilities.
Documents issued in vanishing ink faded into old pawn tickets. New documents were constantly required. The citizens rushed from one bureau to another in a frenzied attempted to meet impossible deadlines."
William S. Burroughs, the routine Benway from "Naked Lunch" Copyright 1959.
Remember, folks, we have to stop those illegal immigrants.
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
It's elitist to the very core as the wealthy will never need an ID card because they will have no requirement for government sponsored healthcare. The lower and middle classes will be tracked and profiled enabling the wealthy to keep them at bay.
I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding for the ID card.. Not that I am defending the government, but if you think of the glass as half full, then you will see that the ID card facilitiate access to YOUR information when YOU need it. it will be the key to facilitate you business with the government or any other organization for that matter. I have just recently finished implementing a Smart Card based National ID implementation in one country, and having seen the potential of this card, I believe ANYONE in his right mind would want one. The Smart Card ID I implemented, is a multiapplication platform, it doubles as your ID card with your vital information that might be needed in case of emergencies for example, and contains the social security number for access to your civil government records (when you need it), it contains you passport information so you can use it through an Auomated Gate in Airports and border crossing so you dont have to que onm passport control, and this come with biometrics. and contains a Digital Certificate and a pin so you can use it to protect your identity when signing is to your bank E-Banking website. And if YOU require more protection of you identity you can decide to use a combination of Biometric and Digital certificate for your transactions. You can ensure that no one stole your identity in elections and otherwise. It can contain your Health Insurance card, your loyalty (points) application,... and As someone mentioned in this discussion, you only need to carry one card ! Some people get paranoid when they learn that the ID card contains Biometrics, I remind then that the card is in their pockets, and they can keep it in the pocket along with the fingers, and can DECIDE on the their own if they want to present the ID card or not. As a citizen, I certainly want one to make my life easier, and protect my identity.
Being that those figures tended towards being very prominent and publicly visible, I'm not sure how an ID card would have held them back. Back in the day, there were heroes and groups of people who stood up and shouted out what they believed in, rather than grumbling and mutting in cramped cubicles.
But wait til King George is installed.
If you traveled on the US interstate highways you were identified, you just didn't know it.
There have been vehicle license plate/tag readers for a long time, at least 20 years that I am aware. Every state has computer camera readable letters on their license plates at this point.
I live in the mid-west too. And I pass at least two plate readers a day. Granted, those are supposed to be for enforcement of the automatic toll system. But I presume that the data is available to any law enforcement organization.
I have heard, from good sources, that there are plate readers all over the interstate highway system for law enforcement purposes. I have no hesitation believing it. If you try to "run from the law" using interstate highways, they will catch you. Followed by a cover story about how some very observant cop just happened to spot you (taken from the last case where I strongly suspect they used the plate/tag readers to catch a guy).
Without papers you're bug
With the papers you're man.
but what if you get dismembered at the neck? then your head wouldnt be associated with your body
"That which we obtain too easily, we esteem too lightly." -- Thomas Paine
"The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become instruments of tyranny at home." -- James Madison
"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without." -- President Dwight Eisenhower
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin
"Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won you earn it and win it in every generation." -- Coretta Scott King (1927-2006)
"In 1997, 20 officials in the federal government were empowered to wield the top secret stamp. Now [2006] there are 1,300". -- Paul McMasters
" If you don't know what your government is doing, you don't live in a democracy." --Jane Anne Morris
We are all just people.
Insert a comma for clarity: Your Rights, Online.
Someone makes this comment in virtually every YRO story. Slashdot, since the inception of YRO stories, has ALWAYS included stories about "your rights" that have nothing to do with the online world. But Slashdot is a website, and therein lies the "online" part.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Can the people who choose not to recieve benifits, also choose not to pay taxes for them?
Being taken into custody is NOT being arrested. IT IS NOT. Please stop trying to play ridiculous semantic games. Being DETAINED is NOT being arrested.
Stop correcting people when you're wrong, god damn that pisses me off.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
http://www.lawyers.com/lawyers/A~1001916~LDS/CRIME +ARREST+EVIDENCE.html#one
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
Why do we even need ID cards? Why do people need one centralized identity that can be tracked? For credit? For any significant credit you are going to have to have collateral anyway. For government services like health care? Well, if health care truly was "Universal" like the government propoganda wants you to believe, then there wouldn't need to be health cards because everyone would have free unlimited access to health care by default. For tracking criminals? Criminals can make/steal ID, so you have to use fingerprints to ID them anyway.
A centralized ID system exists to track people, and control people. If you need an ID card for government services, it is not so that government can give you services (because it would be easy enough to give you services, like medical care, without an ID), it is so they can DENY certain people services. It isn't so they can tax you, because they could just earn revenues with a sales tax and it would be completly anonymous.
If, there was some special reason you DID need an ID for something (say, a passport), you could just issue that based on biometric information (your passport would be tied to a hash of your fingerprint instead of a national ID number).
You listed in your original post TWO things that could happen.
NEITHER of those things applies to me, as I've neither died nor mortgaged myself.
So answer my question. DIRECTLY. No silly games with words, no changing the subject, no moving the goalposts, no justifications or observations that don't matter.
WHY DID YOU LIST ONLY TWO POSSIBILITIES WHEN I HAVE CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED THAT THERE ARE MORE THAN TWO.
"paying $10,000 dollars a year counts as being mortgaged into penury"
THEN WHY AREN'T I MORTGAGED INTO PENURY? I'm not. THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO SAY ABOUT THAT. I AM NOT MORTGAGED INTO PENURY. PLEASE TRY TO TELL ME AGAIN WHAT I AM AND AM NOT.
So save your slimy attempts to weasel me into a position I don't fit into, and answer the god damned question.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
Many plans cap the out of pocket expenses. Simply adding the numbers is disingenuous, because they don't add together, in many cases expenses in one category count toward another category as well.
In other words, your numbers aren't accurate. They COULD be, but in my case they aren't even close.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
"While there may be a legal difference"
That's ALL. Stop right there. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, and detention IS NOT arrest.
You can play semantic games all you like, but there is a difference, and she WAS NOT arrested, which is what the original poster claimed.
Not that she was "de facto" arrested, or "essentially" arrested, but ARRESTED. And she wasn't.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
The US is getting a similar national ID card, by stealth.n .html#is
No one is paying attention because it is being sold as a Federal Employee ID card.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/egov/b-1-informatio
But it will be required to "do business with" the US Government. Like say, file taxes electronically, apply for research grants, get college loans, etc.
The laughable thing is that although it is billed as a way to *stop terrorists*, the morally corrupt Bush administration is going to let *banks* issue them - the same people who send credit cards pre-approved to your dog.
So clearly this card isn't meant to -secure- anything, it is mean to montior and control the actions of citizens....
"Sic Semper Path of Least Resistance"
So instead of a unified format for drivers licenses, you'd rather have a dumb state trooper a week outta the academy try to figure out if your out-of-state license is legal or something you printed on your photo printer and laminated in your bedroom.
I haven't looked at the new legislation, but I would hazard a guess that it mandates certain protections such as multiple holographic layers, 3D barcodes and so forth to reduce the number of hard-to-detect forgeries because Iowa issuea a license written in pencil on the back of a business card. So what if the card specs have been unified. At least your licenses/ID documents don't come back with some other person's photo, difference ethnic group/sex etc like South Africa does.
Trying to become famous by taking photos. Visit my homepage please.
I've worked with these types of cards (I assume that other /. readers have as well), and know too well the limitations of them. Just like any other electronic media, they're not that hard to copy. I've spelt out to Abbott and Costello (I kid you not people who arnt in Oz, these are the names of two members of our government, and are the two who have the most say in what goes on in this case) the risks and limitations of the M-card technology they are considering, and explained exactly how easy it will be for an underground industry to start making and "fixing" these cards.
Due to the resounding silence I've got back I have to assume that the purpose of the cards is NOT to simplify access to Government services and t combat fraud, but rather to work as an ID card.
Papers Please.
I dont know if any one else feels the same way - but to me my main concern is government database consolodation. These id cards are supposed to be the be all and end all in identification. The way things currently stand is various government departments have their own record keeping - which is spread across various different platforms. There is already a certain amount of government department sharing of information which currently takes place.
But essentially each department has its own records.
Now think of identity theft, the way things currently stand to open a bank account, take out a home loan etc etc you must provide what they call 100 points of identification. These can take the form of drivers license, credit cards, bank statements, phone bills, etc etc.
Each form of identification is worth so many points, for example drivers license is 50 points, credit card 20 points bank statement 10 points etc etc. So you have to total up the forms of ID to 100 points.
Now to "steal someones identity" you currently have to have records from a number of different "institutions" each with their own record keeping system (read database) and whilst it is still possible to do it is significantly harder to do simply due to the number of "institutions" that you need to obtain those records from.
If we use an ID card/smart card, i would envisage that this would be like a drivers license and worth around 50, if not 100 points. This in my view significantly lowers the barrier for identity theft. As only one or two forms of identification are required. And the RTA (nsw road transit authority) has been known to stuff up in giving licenses in the past doesnt inspire a lot of confidence.
The next thing is where the smart card databases are kept, who has access to them, and what sort of recourse do you have in the case that the database holds the incorrect information or your identity has been "stolen".
Dont think that it wont happen, there has never been an ID system in Australia - and i would doubt anywhere in the world that cant be abused or compromised in some way. My main concern now is that they are saying that this is going to help in the fight on Terrorism and for the life of me i cant see how it will.
My final point is that if these cards do have RFID - wont this be a boon to advsertisers. Can you imagine going through the checkout at Coles or Woollies and having a RFID scanner read your card (while it is in your wallet or purse) possibly reading any medical conditions you may or may not have, financial information such as tax bracket or whatever and targetting advertising at you accordingly ?
The technology might not be there now but think about it - if you were walking round a shopping centre, LCD displays advertising could read peoples RFID tags as they are walking by and play targetted commercials for those people who's card it has read.
Sorry this may seem all a bit "big brotherish" but just some ideas that i have had about this card system.
Try reading the article.. properly.. and consider how far you get with US business, banks, bureaucracy without a Social Security number.. which you have to have, yet is almost impossible for any non-government body to cross-check is actually yours.. or even valid. And its issued on a scrappy little bit of cardboard.. which doesn't survive a good washing machine too well.
The article about is those receiving government payments.. and even with a setup cost of $1 billion, is estimated to save $3 billion a year.. which gives you some idea how many welfare scam artists there are, claiming multiple entitlements under false names.
Also note that the current government has dominant control in both houses of government (uncommon in our history), and could push through as nasty a mandatory Big Brother national card as they want (in the name of terror protection).. yet they have chosen not too.. they HAVE observed things like the London bombings being done by British citizens, and that a national ID card does not prevent such acts.
Also consider that the whole "identity-theft" issue, is largely one that only exists in the US. Books and movies relating to the subject are pretty much universal flops outside the US, as the problem doesn't make much sense anywhere else. Biometrics tied to whatever ID you consider as the "proof" mightn't be a bad idea (be that a passport, drivers license, social security card), provided that access to the data isn't available to every store you walk into, or doorway you go through..unless you choose to volunteer it i.e. you can't just be tracked everywhere because you have the card, there must be some reasonable grounds for you to be required to produce the ID. Maybe it has an RFID card, but you normally carry it in a thin shielding case, unless you want/need to produce it.
Maybe more work should be done on the privacy laws and control of how the information associated with ID cards can be used and accessed, and less effort wasted on the paranoia and indignation of "how dare anyone know who I am" or "how dare anyone tell me that I have to carry a card".
As someone who keeps track of numerous passwords and PIN codes, and there seem to all the other rubbish (a card and password to get a video), one biometric ID, which says it is me (rather than identifying some account number) would be a great simplification. Might make the wallets a little thinner.. I have recently taken to keeping a second wallet of all of those infrequent cards, that you have to have.. the car association (read AA), the library etc etc, as I don't like carrying a wallet that is an inch thick (pity it isn't all cash!).
If some of the other "prove who you are" situations were covered i.e. I could ditch some of the other cards, and reasonable privacy laws are in place, then I would consider voluntarily getting an ID card.
"...and put an end to the policy we have of all sending tax dollars to the Fed's, and then having them turn right around and hold them over the state's heads in order to control policy..."
Mod this man up.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
Given the massive immigration into Australia both in the last forty years (large asian component), post WW2 (large european immigration), gold rushes (~1850s in east, ~1890s in west), plus free migration at other times.. I doubt that as many as 5% of australians could claim any ancestry that is convict.
And I mean claim.. given the now well-known details of some of the triviality of the crimes for which some convicts were shipped to Australia (like stealing bread to feed your family), Australians who have convict ancestry are quite proud of that fact.. yet I only personally know two. Maybe the few descendants of murderers are quieter about the fact.. although I doubt it.. the sins of the father not relating to the sins of the son/children etc.
I am a fifth gen australian, of free settlers (eastern states). All of my ancestors settled here in the twenty or so years during the tail-end period of the eastern convict shipments, immediately preceding the Oz gold rushes, Highland Clearances of Scotland, and the Potato Famine (aka the Great Hunger) of Ireland. And I don't consider myself any more (or less) Australian than someone who recently migrated, or who is 200th generation (aboriginal).. I care more about how they relate to the country they are living in, and the way they live among the other people of the nation.
BTW, to the wit from South Oz, they should check their history a little better. While convicts were not sent to SA, they were sent to WA, just later (started WA shipping as eastern convict shipments were shutting down).. so convicts were not just "eastern states".
Having spent a lot of time both holidaying in the US, and consulting there, I have found it continually irritating the number of Americans who with a deep understanging of foreign affairs and history (LOL) only know that we have kangaroos, and that we are all descended from convicts. Oh, and that Paul Hogan does bad commercials (and movies), and we all drink Fosters. I once put up with over two hours of diatribe by some scandinavian-ancestry californian (in CA) trying to needle me that his ancestors (vikings) had overrun and raped the ancestors (celts, britons) of my convict ancestors. Mind you, I'm still not sure that he wasn't better informed than he acted, as he appeared to be specifically looking for a fight.. and the viking-descendant didn't last long or fare well when I finally had enough. And I'm not quite sure how saying that your ancestors were rapists is something to be proud of.
Anyway.. after the ramble, the point is.. we ain't all convicts.. any more than all Americans had some ancestral involvement (from either standpoint) in slavery. Ridiculous assertions.
but they should learn that its going to happen anyway and its better to embrace something and realise that bitching and moaning isnt going to get you anywhere.
Fuck off. It's that sort of attitude that kept Hitler in power so long. (Now that Howard has succeeded in dragging this country to the far right and back to 1950s socially, maybe he could fuck right off too and we could start to repair the damage.)
Which is why Australia is having a 10 year anniversary of a 30 people massacre on the same day as the US are having a 10 day anniversary of a 30 people massacre.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
I am am australian and I dont have problems with an ID card as such, especially if it would mean I would need to carry less stuff in my wallet.
The problem is when governments start attaching more information to the cards or starts mandating you need ID cards in all sorts of places (e.g. "You need ID card to check books out of the library") or make it compulsory to cary it with you. (e.g. "if you dont have your card, the cops can arrest you")
The places generally talked about needing an ID card are perfectly OK with me.
You already need to show ID to open a bank account so that isnt an issue.
You also need ID if you are going to sell stuff to a second hand shop (at least here in Western Australia you do) which is aimed at making it harder to sell stolen property.
As for domestic air travel, last time I flew, I had to show ID when I checked in. And the airlines can link you to your flight/seat/ticket/boarding pass etc already. Needing to show this new ID card to board a commercial airplane would not be any different IMO.
OK, neither you or the parent poster are Australian so let me (An Australian) Explain it,
In the great southern land we don't need high powered automatic weapons to feel safe, in fact the knowledge that high powered automatic weapons are not in the hands of maniac's is a very comforting thought. It is not illegal to own a gun unless 1. Have nowhere to use a gun (Join a gun club) 2. You have a criminal record (Just common Frickin sense here people) 3. You already have several guns (why do you need 30 Frickin shotguns) or 4. Those little misc. legal reasons (You're not an AU citizen, you're under 18).
There is also a law against easily concealable handguns. The minimum barrel length of an automatic pistol is 120 mm.
There are more gun deaths in the city of New York than in the continent of Australia (Yes we are a continent as well as an island and a nation).
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Personally I think the terror angle is just an excuse - we've already used it in Australia as an excuse to limit loud parties (Perth) and for grown men in parliment to hassle schoolgirls who wear headscarves (Sydney). Those dead people in New York have been used to justify all kinds of silly restrictions which would have made no difference if imposed before.
I think the real target is to track the flow of funds to cut down on tax evasion.
The media over here has been successfully distracted with a furore over the misdirection of a war casualty, which the various ministers involved will blame each other over until that and the more serious issue of personal privacy have become old news.
It's OK Bender, there's no such thing as 2.
In fact, we don't need two inch long knives to feel safe, in fact, the knowledge that low powered leathermen multitools aren't in the hands of manics is a very comforting thought.
I've never understood why so many Australians think the feeling of safety is so much more important than the ability to respond to an armed criminal in any fashion other than abject obeisance.
Which would be ever so much more impressive if New York city didn't have gun laws near identical to Australia. And what's with the whole "gun deaths" line... I keep seeing statistics which insist that gun deaths are down (but only in line with a trend which was already in play since long before that) since John Howards craven capitulation to the gun control lobby but no one is all that interested in how many actual murders took place in that period.
Things that make ya go hmmmmmmm...
I can't help but wonder just how much deader a corpse killed by a gun is than a corpse killed by a knife.
And yes, the handy dandy leatherman multitool (or any other edged implement) is actually illegal here in nsw. Police are permitted to perform a cursory search of any citizen at any time in search of knives.
"Cursed is he who rises early in the morning..." Isiah 5:11
OK I'm being a pendant but Australia the country is not the same as Australia the continent.
Australia the continent also includes Tasmania, New Guinea, and the intervening islands. That doesn't stop almost all Australians being taught that they are a continent in school.
And I got it wrong in a pub quiz last (knackers...)
I'm an EMT in NY, and having fancy ID cards with medical information is not going to change anything, or even make my job easier. We'd need some sort of computer to read the things, and they are expensive, breakable objects in the back of a vehicle that gets crewed by people who don't do technology for a living.
Stupid Idea for ambulances, Good Idea for hospitals.
--Hawk
The ability to own guns is not merely an index of freedom. It is the primary means of retaining your freedom.
Americans think that every move ever made by their government is a slippery slope to 1984. And you think it's not? Open your goddamn eyes. And it's not only America, but all over the so-called "civilized" world. Who the hell is this ever-tightening leash supposed to protect us from? Politicians are people obsessed with power (just as people with violent tendencies become policemen or military, cos let's face it, if you're a bookworm, odds are you won't go to military school). Not the kind of people I'd trust with having absolute control over me.