Slashdot Mirror
Bank Accounts of 5,000 UK Terror Suspects Tracked
Juha-Matti Laurio writes to mention an article over at the Guardian, reporting on the surveillance of over 5,000 bank accounts in the interests of terrorist tracking. Accounts at such reputable British banks as HSBC, Barclay, and Lloyds TSB are having their activity tracked for 'suspicious activity'. Financial details from these banks, it turns out, was part of the trail of evidence used to apprehend terrorism suspects in a plot to bomb airplanes last month. From the article: "However, the extent of the banks' involvement in neutering the terrorist threat has sparked a fierce backlash from some British Muslims amid claims of mistaken identities and the persecution of innocent account-holders. Ahmed Salama was stunned when his HSBC account was frozen nine days ago. He received a letter informing him that HSBC wished to end their relationship after 11 years. The decision left Salama unable to pay 12 bills and his mortgage. Despite repeatedly asking for an explanation, HSBC has only told him it detected 'suspicious' payments in his account."
Mortgage £750
Gas £90
Electric £45
Sky £37
Guns_r_us £917
Telephone £67
Getting your name on the no fly list, priceless.
liqbase
Has tho good old cash withdrawal and paying for things with cash dryed out?
I guess anyone getting cash from his account will get some special flag now. Welcome to _real_ terror.
Before you get your account suspended, make sure you're in serious severe debt.
I'd rather have a 0.00000001% chance of being blown up by terrorist events organized by the government, than to live under the draconian restrictions on freedom the same government pushes allegedly in response to those said terrorist events.
Some people assume that fascism is something that happened in Italy pre WW2 or something. They never entertain the thought that germans, italians and spanish people didn't see it coming until it was too late to do anything about it. Why do the british/american people delude themselves under the false assumption that it could never happen with them?
There is nothing inherent in a democratic system apart from the constant watch of the people that stops the system from becoming undemocratic and fascist. The leaders generally work towards that state, however well intentioned they might be.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
And here we see the consequences of a shoot-first, ask-questions-later policy to fighting crime/terrorism/whatever we're calling it today. The law should protect people from this kind of mistake, not encourage it.
The really insidious thing, of course, isn't that the mistake happened -- no-one's perfect, certainly not banks and government departments -- but that there is little the victim of such a mistake can do, since the system is designed to stonewall them on the basis that they're in the wrong. In other words, the system assumes it is perfect. This sort of situation, where the little guy is being screwed by the big guy with the government's blessing, is exactly why things like constitutional safeguards, civil liberties and due process are important.
And yes, I am bitter. I have had problems of a similar type, in my case by a random civil service staffer making a simple mistake in entering an ID number on their system, fluking my number instead of someone else's, and leaving me with several months of being out of pocket and wasting hours trying to get the problem fixed. That was not long after I started my first job, when I had precious little in the way of savings and a very tight budget, and it nearly left me unable to pay my rent.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Oh, yes...the 'liquid explosive' plot.
The 'plot' where the alleged terrorists had no plane tickets and no bombs, and some of them didn't even have passports .
The 'plot' which alledeg the terrorists' intentions to synthesize TATP on board an airplane...a procedure that is ridiculously farfetched and manifestly impossible.
Ah, yes...that plot. I feel much safer now, now that some poor slob who has the misfortune of having an Arab name won't be able to pay his mortgage. That'll show those terrists the strength of our resolve!
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
Can't pay your bills, can't pay your mortgage, have your credit rating plummet, forget about renewing your mortgage, forget about getting that loan.
Who needs terror from abroad when there's enough domestic terror?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Buried under the third Arbutus tree next to my neighbor, Robert Graham.
Nobody will ever know...
(but seriously, banks barely give any interest anyway on basic saving & checking accounts...you might as well bury SOME of your money in your back yard
you never know...
Both the account holder and the financial institution have the right to terminate the commercial relationship. The financial institution is limited by discrimination laws in the United States, and presumably there are limitations in the United Kingdom as well. Criminal investigation is an excellent reason to terminate the relationship.
>> Euros/Francs/Pounds/Marks
Did you mean Euros/Euros/Pounds/Euros?
Wouldn't an actual terrorist serious about hiding his transactions probably be having an account in a Swiss bank? You know, those we'll-never-disclose-customer-information places?
Or have I just read one too many Frederick Forsyth novels?
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
He made a cross border payment to a "charity" in Afghanistan. There was a program on the T.V. in the U.K. less than a month ago that showed what some of these "charities" in occupied Palestine did with the money they where getting from the U.K. Lets just say it was *VERY* disturbing. Quite why you would make a cross border payment of 20GBP is another matter. It would have cost him more than that to make the payment, and there are plenty of reputable U.K. or international based charities working in Afghanistan that would have taken his money.
Did he do something suspicious, sure as hell he did. Is he innocent, quite possibly. However that does not change the fact that banks can and do routinely suspend accounts that have suspicious activity on them, and it does not just extend to terrorism. It happens all the time due to specious fraudulant activity, sometimes comited by random third party crimials.
Being Free means living with the risks.
When you're terrified of Gatorade On A Plane, you're not Free.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Ermm... heard of Swiss Franc? Its only one of the 5 major financial-market currencies, you know .. (US$, Yen, Euro, Francs, Pounds) .. contrary to popular perception, the Swiss still have their own currency.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Switzerland isn't in Western Europe
Who thinks govt employees are smart and noble?
They arent, they are a "yes boss" sort of person, the govt higher ups never want
people with ambition or self thought. They want chickens. People who dont rock the boat
and are easily coersed into doing 'not quite moral stuff'.
They purposely make many many layers of mangement and control so no one really knows whos in charge.
Every person handles only a small part of some 'file' and that way, no single person is wholey responsible if someones
life is utterly screwed up by loosing their house/credit rating etc... because some idiotic 58yo racist MOFO places
someone on a watch list because of a some 12 point check list designed by some so called smart MBA who trained
at some neoCON university.
Fast acting govt? In your dreams.
Let the aliens land and take over.... HURRY UP!
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Telefon, anyone ? Eleven years is nothing for a plant. He obviously is, or there would not be suspicous payments. It is the moral thing to do, or would you have these nutcase extremists blow up planes?
So the banks can ask for their money, but people cant ask for their withdraws?
NOTE: everyones deposits are only 11% guranteed by govt law, so in the event of a total
dollar/currency/depression-II , you only get 11% . The rest, "Sorry, its gone!"
Maybe I'll tell the bank, "sorry, the govt only gurantees 11% of my debt to you!"
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
"Switzerland isn't in Western Europe"
LOL. Where do you think it is? Asia?
Hint for the geographically-special: Switzerland is further West than Germany or most of Italy.
Read/watch www.freedomtofascism.com
Oh and ive suggested this to slashdots draconian fascist story reviewers.
DENIED!
I guess they are on the cut from neocons.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
LOL. Where do you think it is? Asia?
Duh. It's in Scandinavia!
Slashdotters are really bad at geometry.
CIA morons are stupid twits, how old are most? 28-35? Born in the 70s, grew up in the 80s maddonas age, probably never
touched a computer till 1998.
Go see terror storm at www.infowars.com
The inteligence agencies are your worse friend.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
"Accounts at such reputable British banks as HSBC" ..which stands for Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation. British indeed.
5,000 seems a lot of people, but the police must have definite evidence to suspect them.
"Exemption 29 under the Data Protection Act can be applied if the police need some information for the prevention and detection of crime or for the apprehension or prosecution of offenders. This exemption cannot be used by the police as a 'fishing exercise'. This means that they can't ask for all your records in the hope of catching offenders but has to be quite specific and a need for this information." - Information Commisioner
Reduce, reuse, cycle
If you're in the UK, then unless something's changed fairly recently, the fact that you were turned down shouldn't appear on the report. It should only indicate that a check was made. You don't want to have a whole string of checks listed in rapid succession, for obvious reasons, but a single extra check could be anything and shouldn't count against you.
That said, the last time I checked my credit report (also after someone else's screw-up affected my ability to do something) it was a joke, with probably more inaccurate records than accurate ones, and the attitude of the credit agency when I called to get it fixed was similarly unimpressive.
Also, if your credit report has been damaged because O2 made a mistake, you should ask O2 to remove the relevant details from the report. Failing that, you can (yourself) add an explanatory note to the report. That's not ideal, because automated systems won't understand it, but again, unless things have changed fairly recently, you're allowed by law to compel any business that makes automated decisions based on your credit report to undertake a manual review of those decisions by a real person who can see the notes.
Isn't it odd how the usual data protection principles don't seem to apply to the credit reference agencies? (I'm not aware of any legal reason why they shouldn't, but they certainly seem to be violated with remarkable frequency and little consequence.)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
25% of British Muslims believe the 7/7 bombings were justified.
When asked, "Is Britain my country?" only one in four British Muslims it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia law than under British law. Half of those British Muslims who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws.
Twenty-eight percent of Brirish Muslims hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state.
Enough said. Keep monitoring those bank accounts.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
HSBC would not have been allowed to suspend this guy's account without prior approval being given by the authorities. Once a financial institution is given the name of a preson who is suspected of involvement in terrorism or some other serious crime, it's a criminal offence for the bank to do anything that might alert the customer that investigations are taking place. For that reason, most bank staff have no way of knowing which accounts are under surveillance.
However, once a bank is advised that one of their customers is using their account for illegitimate purposes, there is little alternative but to suspend the account. The senior staff of financial institutions commit a criminal offence if they knowingly allow their customers to use their accounts for criminal purposes.
So, once they were permitted to notify the customer, HSBC had little choice in the matter. If the chap is innocent (and remember, not everyone who goes sobbing to the media is innocent), the anti-terrorism squad are to blame - not HSBC. (BTW, I don't work for HSBC)
Wake up, folks! We're not talking about a handful of misguided individuals, like a Unabomber, nor a tiny sect like the Branch Davidian or whatever. We're talking about a loosely flung organization of thousands, with millions of supporters or at least sympathizers behind them. Their goal isn't to blow up a few people; while many view 9/11 as a global disaster, I consider it little more than a minor skirmish in an ongoing cultural war with much bigger stakes. 9/11 was successful beyond the wildest expectations of its perpetrators, and directly affected maybe 10,000 or 20,000 people - the victims and their families. But Islamic fundamentalists plan nothing short of overthrowing our governments and replacing them with the rule of foaming-at-the mouth religious zealots even worse than the ones currently ruling the US. This would affect hundreds of millions of people, perhaps for generations. Or, to put it into terms even your mouth-breathing neighbor would understand: They want to take away your booze and your porn and make you pray and bang your head on the ground five times a day! You could keep your guns, though, because killing each other seems to be an important facet of Muslim life.
In view of this danger, I have no problem with the government
and generally taking a tough stance. I believe that the stakes are nothing less than the continued existence of Western civilization as we know it.
At the same time, I expect our governments to proceed fairly and appropriately. That sounds very wishy-washy, so I'll add some clarifying examples:
At the same time, I recommend dealing severely with attempts by anyone: politicians, law makers or law enforcers to commandeer for unrelated purposes those special powers implemented for dealing with national threats. I'm talking loss of office, heavy fines, even imprisonment for such abuses. The danger of our system being destroyed from within is just as grave as from without, and must be resisted. If we drop all the accomplishments of centuries of civilization and justice at the mention of the word "terrorist" then –to quote a
When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Rel
What? Has Switzerland also switched to euros?
Reduce, reuse, cycle
Hey guys, let's be realistic here. This isn't as major a problem as it may seem - I think that the Guardian may have got its facts wrong a little - by law every bank emploee is required to perform 'due diligence' - in other words, they are required to look for unusual activity on every bank account, not just those of 5,000 muslims. Money laundering - processing the proceeds of crime/terrorist activity through the banking system - is itself a criminal act and if the banks do not perform their due diligence then they are also performing criminal activity. Basically, every bank employee is responsible for monitoring transactions on their accounts that they deal ith and if they fail to do so and fail to act when unusual transactions appear on the account then they themselves can be imprisoned. OK, so you may not want people keeping an eye on what you're spending, but personally I'm glad they do, because they've caught people fraudulently trying to use my account before. Oh, and not only that, but this is not a British law only, it is an international law - I am only aware of about half a dozen countries that do not have similar laws in place.
Listen idiot. America covers a large part of the North American continent and is made up of 50 states. We have states many times larger than countries in Europe. The reason you know as much about other countries close to you is pricesly because they are close to you. If each state in America was an autonomous country with it's own language, culture and history then we would all seem just as "wordly" as you Europeans like to claim you are because we would need to be in order to maintain good relations with our neighbors. How much do you know about the countries in say Africa. Please list them all to me as well as their capatils, the languages spoken and the currencies they use. That's what I thought.
yup... google for "fractional reserve banking", and then it'll be quickly apparent that diversifying your investments is vital.
The last 26 consecutive transactions I've done through my UK account have resulted in a callback or me being put on 'hold while they check it with a transfer consultant'.
I'm not muslim, I'm white and British, but I have complained about Bush and Blair lying their asses off.
I don't know what the banking regulations in the US are, however the required reserve ratio in the UK is basically zero. Technically it's agreed in private between the Bank of England and the big commercial banks; due to heavy lobbying over time the reserve ratio was reduced again and again until it reached so close to zero that it makes no odds.
You may disagree with his post, but it's well written and sums up perfectly how people like me who are genuenly concerned about terrorism but want to strike a balance between fighting terrorism and civil liberties.
Seventy-two percent of the British Muslims think the U.K is fine as it is.
I hope the world will be religion free someday, does that make me a danger to all religious folk now?
The OFAC lists have been around since the 1970's, I believe, with the Bank Secrecy Act.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
The Muslim world produces more history than it can consume locally, so it has to export.
OK, I'm being facetious.
If you're really interested in understanding how all this came to pass, I'd suggest reading some books by Bernard Lewis. He's been studying the Muslim world for 70+ years, and has a lot of insights. Start with "What went Wrong?".
Then, there's "Gos has 99 Names", by Judith Miller and "Inside the Arab World" by Michael Field.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Said by Thomas Jefferson.
Your governments have a message:
Look, it's very very simple. The terrorists hate us for our freedoms. Because of said hatred, they have attacked us. In order to prevent further attacks and to have the means to catch said terrorists, you are all going to have to give up a handful of your freedoms now.
It's the only way to defend those, um, freedoms that you are forced^H^H^H^H^H^Hallowing us to give up, on your behalf, a little bit at a time until the time comes that you have too little left to do anything about it. On the bright side, if it's true that they hate us for our freedoms, then they really should be loving us a little more with each passing day. Mission accomplished.
Pfff, most of us is so culturally challenged that we can't even choose our president here.
How dare you say we don't need to know about the geopolitics of the most preeminent and economic-relevant nations around the world?
This includes the whole EUROPE, at least 5 countries in ASIA, and I must say 2-3 in SOUTH AMERICA (these are continents, you see?) And that's just for starts.
And only if you're not concerned with Bio research, History, Global Economics...
Please, wake up and learn some more culture, and stop eating this "TERRORIST MENACE" bull with your cereal.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
The number is more like "over a billion".
"Significant and growing number"?
"Thousands" out of over a billion does NOT sound like a "significant and growing number".
And Bush also believes that God has given him a Mission.
What their "goal" is does not matter if they cannot achieve it.
And they cannot achieve it.
Again, what they "want" does not matter if they cannot achieve it.
Here, let me put it in terms that you can understand.
How many people would those evil Muslims have to kill in order to get YOU to convert or vote for Osama?
If you would not vote for Osama, then it really does Not MATTER WHAT THEIR GOALS ARE BECAUSE THEY WILL NEVER ACHIEVE THEM.
No. The danger of our system being destroyed from within IS FAR GREATER THAN FROM WITHOUT.
In the US, statistically, you are more likely to kill YOURSELF than to be killed by a terrorist.
You put an amazing amount of faith in your government.
Who will/can verify that the "terrorists" found are actually terrorists?
Instead, why not just realize that there is a certain danger in living every day and that no amount of Big Brother will ever protect you from that?
Wrong.
The "optimal strategy" for "dealing with the threat of Islamic fundamentalism" does NOT include elevating it to an issue of "national security".
You deal with it by supporting the liberal and moderate elements and treating the extremists as the criminals that they are. Arrest them. Try them. Jail them.
But do NOT plaster it all over every paper in the world and make travellers dump their shampoo before they can fly.
Seriously, its easy. It always amazes me how many people complain about their banks, but never change. I swapped from the evil NatWest to Smile (www.smile.co.uk) about 10 years ago. Couldnt be happier, and it was a trivial change, the incoming bank wants your custom, they will always arrange all your standing orders and direct debits etc to be changed over easily.
Banks don't control you. You are the customer. If they annoy you, just leave.
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
25% believe that the 7/7 bombings were justified. Ok, this one looks bad. It can be explained by the U.K's collaboration with the U.S regarding the war in Iraq. Many muslims don't stomach all those tens of thousands of deaths due to collateral damage and will hold countries responsible. And maybe lash out in a poll. Doesn't mean they'll actually support terrorism. Only an idiot would think that. 45%+ of quebec residents favored secession, yet they never demolished bridges and blocked streets with burning tires. Opinion does not equal action. And 75% of muslims were against the attacks. That's a bigger percentage than the number of europeans who are against racism according to the last french and austrian elections among others. And racism is a much, much , MUCH bigger problem than terrorism. We don't freeze THOSE people's bank accounts though, do we?
Only one in four think Britain is their country? So what? You think those people are going to simply renounce their country of origin? People are proud, even those that come from third world countries. Who CARES if they view GB as their country. Their children will. And that'll be the end of that. That's the way it ALWAYS works with immigrants.
30% of muslims would prefer to live under sharia law? Meaning islamic law? ONLY 30%? Wow, that's great. Isn't it? 70% of muslims PREFER A SECULAR GOVERNMENT! What's the problem?
15% of muslims say that given the choice, they'd move to a country governed by shari'a laws. Well then, they are lying. There is nothing stopping them. Here's Morocco, here's Algeria, Yemen, Tunisia, Egypt, ad infinitum, why don't they move there? I know for a fact they don't need visas to go there. What does that say about the 30% that'd prefer a sharia government? Might they ALSO be lying? *GASP*. Hard to believe, but people lie in polls. Google that and find out for yourself.
28% hope for the U.K to become an islamic state. And these are muslims we're talking about. How many christians do you think would be in favor of living in a christian state? EH? Should we monitor THEIR bank accounts? What a stupid question to ask. This is trolling if i've ever seen it
That poll was designed to make muslims look bad. Stop spreading FUD.
Read the links, the alleged explosive could not have been made, and the alleged terrorist didn't have the means to carry it out even if true. To put it in simpler terms, it posed no threat to life.
"Why don't you go and preach your crap to the families of the victims?
Because if it couldn't have happened, then there are no victims. Not that their couldn't be people with bad thoughts on their minds, only that those people don't pose a threat to life liberty etc.
Let's see what happens when the 28% start beheading the 72% who don't agree with them.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
What happens to the 70% or so when the 30% or so start beheading those who disagree with them?
The younger generation is more alienated and radicalized than the older generation. The 7/7 bombers were born and raised in the UK.
While most Muslims may not be terrorists, most terrorists are Muslim.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Offtopic: I understand that the 2-month-old baby thing is stupid but I'm not sure about that 80-year-old grandma thing. Who said old people couldn't feel strongly about things? Surely it's the exact opposite? Surely old people have less to lose by committing suicide?
That stinks. In the USA, 100% is covered up to 100,000.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
It would be interesting to keep a comparative record of what ratio of a country's population is considered suspected terrorists. 5,000 means about one in every 12,000 people in Britian is considered a suspected terrorist. Is that realistic? Seems really hard to believe for a first-world country but I don't actually know. I imagine at least one in every 12,000 is a malcontent. So when does it become an Orwellian fishing expedition to root out discontent? For countries that will release a number like this, let's see what sort of countries they are and become.
You've very nicely ignored the means the 30% or so is willing to use to achieve its goals.
Democracy isn't much use to you if your head's been sawed off. On TV. Pour encourager les autres, don't you know.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
There are several problems with your analysis.
So I think that the number of "civilians" killed (excluding the above groups) is more relevant. This number is given in Wikipedia as 1857. Giving a chance of about 0.006% of being killed by terrorism in a lifetime.
For comparison with chances of dying from a range of other causes, see here. For example, an American has about a 1.3% chance of dying by suicide.
If it's a choice between giving up civil liberties to the government, and putting up with a risk of dying because of some terrorist attack, I'll take the risk of being killed by terrorists, thanks.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
He was once targeted for terrorist-like (or was it drug-lord like) movement of money. It seems that he pays for everything in cash "so that no one can track where my money goes" (the quote isn't exact, but that was the gist of his response). He regularly had a staffer pull several thousand dollars out of his account for walking-around money, and pays for everything with cash. It's the sheer volume of cash he mows through that got him snagged, though. Iirc, it was on the order of $5k-$10k every other week.
So, yes, you can still do it all with cash. Nonetheless, if you do you'll be targetted as a terrorist/bad guy for trying to hide your transactions. I'm still waiting for the bumper sticker that says "being anonymous isn't a crime...but it should be".
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
When I worked for a bank a while back, we would scan all active accounts on a monthly basis. Essentially submitting a client list against a database of known suspects. It never searched for suspicious activity, so thats not a common thing. But frequently we had known customers appear on the list, and just waived them. Never really sure why they appeared but we knew they were ok, and just put them on the allow list basically. But it's definitly not a bad idea IMO
The current governments and "intelligence" agencies are preying on the knee-jerk reaction the grandparent showed.
Fundamentalism has been a human trait too long to be just Islam-based. Even GWB slipped up and mentioned "crusade"!
I'm not saying don't think, I'm saying think for yourself without glibly accepting the "millions" figures the scaremongers tout. Grandparent, please, PLEASE do not accept the kool-aid from the guys in black suit and black vans... Even if their message comes courtesy of FOX.
"We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over." - Aneurin Bevan
As a Brit I probably know more about American culture than anywhere else in Europe, not because I need to or any crap like that, but because I read and watch BBC News 24 alot.
The fact is that American culture is very inward facing. Take the World Series for example, its not the world who take part in it, it is only North America. There are many more examples of this where the US media equate World to mean US.
Now your argument that we need to know more about the rest of Europe is bullshit too, I have no need (or care really) to know anything about most of the rest of Europe as it doesnt (yet - when Europe merges more it might.) affect my life. Fiscal Policy is set from the London where I live, we are not part of the Euro. The ruler of my country (Blair) is only elected by British people. Tax level are for the most part set by UK Govt. So why would I give a shit about the rest of Europe. But I can still name a few other European leaders (Chirac (Leftish) and the German Conservative Bint).
The fact is that one of the reasons we come across as more worldly is that we have a much better education system and much better press (State sponsered BBC). And with the way the American education system is going at the moment (teaching all that creationism bollocks instead of real science) in a few years you lot wont even know that there are countries in the world that don't have christianity as a major religion.
I dont read
The above PDF gives advice to financial institutions on how to submit STR (suspicious transaction report) to the treasury. The interesting thing is that it is not an offence to submit an incorrect tip off (STR). Also, the PDF shows some of the internal workflow for the STR - which would pass through NCIS (National Crime Squads, now SOCA) before reaching other interested parties.
Anyone who has bought a car, boat, house or any expensive item by law has to show valid identification and a transaction form is completed and sent in. When I recently bought my car, I had to take my passport in and the dealer filled in a form and photocopied my ID!
Even the UK version of PayPal has an inbuilt limit at GBP4,100 that will temporarily freeze the PayPal account until the account holder has validated their identity - this is reported and sent in and used for tax collection and STR purposes.
not a new story, move along please.
some British Muslims amid claims of mistaken identities and the persecution of innocent account-holders
Maybe if all those sand-niggers didn't have the same fuckin' name there wouldn't be as many cases of mistaken identity.
Mohummand-ali-akbar Mohummand-Bin-Mohummand Mohummand-Mohummand-Mohummand. Darka-darka-darka.
Nose to the wall?
Whenever my mom caught two of us fighting, she'd make us sit on the couch with an arm around the other person. I'm not sure what it was supposed to do; really, it just gave us a chance to squeeze each other's head.
But I like that idea. Let's make Christianity and Islam sit on the couch with their arms around each other until they can play nicely, and share their toys without it turning into a punch-up.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Take the World Series for example, its not the world who take part in it, it is only North America. There are many more examples of this where the US media equate World to mean US.
I used to think the same, until I found out that the "World" in World Series has something to do with a newspaper that sponsored it way-back-when. The paper was called, The New York World or something. I don't know the exact details and I'm too lazy to google them for you, but let it be known that that word doesn't mean what you think it means (in this context).
I'm not a nerd. Nerds are smart.
The man didn't run.
The guy spotted jumping the ticket block in the station was one of the agents on his tail. De Menezes didn't know what was happening until the guys stormed the train where he was sitting idly.
Then you should say "Franken" to make it clear ;)
"Freiheit ist immer auch die Freiheit des Andersdenkenden" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1871 - 1919
How do we expect terrorism to slow, without looking at the motivations?
From 2001-09-11 wikipedia page:
---
According to official U.S. government sources, the September 11th attacks were consistent with the mission statement of al-Qaeda....
The fatwa lists three "crimes and sins" committed by the Americans:
* U.S. support of Israel.
* U.S. military occupation of the Arabian Peninsula.
* U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people.
The fatwa states that the United States:
* Plunders the resources of the Arabian Peninsula.
* Dictates policy to the rulers of those countries.
* Supports abusive regimes and monarchies in the Middle East, thereby oppressing their people.
* Has military bases and installations upon the Arabian Peninsula, which violates the Muslim holy land, in order to threaten neighboring Muslim countries.
* Intends thereby to create disunion between Muslim states, thus weakening them as a political force.
* Supports Israel, and wishes to divert international attention from (and tacitly maintain) the occupation of Palestine
---
So our response is:
- more support of Israel, even when they use cluster bombs on civilians
- more support of the undemocratic, oil holding Saudis, even though there were big ties to september 11,2001.
- Invade and occupy Iraq.
Compare this again to the "crimes and sins" of americans list.
Terror suspects - You suspect them of having terror. They are afraid?
War on Terror - War agaist a feeling: terror/fear
War on Terrorism - War against a tactic: acts of terrorism
War on Terrorists - War against an unspecific group: those who would commit acts of terrorism
War against Al Qaida - War against a specific group that posed a threat
War in Iraq - ???
War against WMD that the US already destroyed years before?
War to remove Saddam, who has been removed?
War to promote a Muslim democracy? Democracy is evidently not imortant in Saudi Arabia.
War to create/attract would be terrorists.
War against Afganistan,Iraq,Korea,Iran - US goal to attack all bad countries and kill all the bad people to make world safer?
I really hate comments like this. Do you have any real evidence proving that there was no plot?
No. And I don't have any real evidence proving you are not a terrorist.
GUARDS!
(Doesn't the government have a case to prove first? Or do you just believe everything they say?)
Lies about crimes
I'd also keep an eye on all those phishing cases involving money transfers!
Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
Wow, someone finally understands that democracy is not simply "the will of the majority".
Every moderator who participated in putting this comment up to a +5 should be stripped of their moderating priviliges.
Who the fuck am I? Someone who believes in equal rights for all, not for condemning women to a life of no education, no employment, no freedom of movement, no political voice. Someone who believes that different religious beliefs are not cause for summary execution. Someone who believes that so-called honour killings are an abomination. Someone who believes that Sharia law is WRONG, that anyone attempting to implement it is WRONG, and that anyone who would say those wanting to live under Sharia law should be respected is one of Lenin's "useful idiots".
Being Free means living with the risks.
When you're terrified of Gatorade On A Plane, you're not Free
This is the very thing that most people seem to forget the second CNN comes on. Freedom isn't easy and isn't 100% safe no matter how badly people want to insulate themselves. Thousands of people did VERY unsafe things to have their freedom throughout the history of the world.
Take away a persons respectful life. If he has no way to earn a respectful living, the only option for him is crimes. And there is every temptation to become a terrorists. That is why the war on terrorism is so f**cked up. Fast erosion of freedoms is another.
Remember, he who will give up some freedom for some security (convenience) deseves neither.
I know it's been said, which is why I'm posting AC
Americans are not afraid of terrorists - we the people took down a plane ourselves once we knew what was going on.
Actually, the terrorists crashed the plane, not the passengers. The passengers never even made it inside the cockpit. And I'm pretty sure that the passengers were trying to regain control of the plane so they could live. They didn't collectively form some spur-of-the-moment suicide pact and decide to martyr themselves in the name of the USA.
And evidently, USAmericans are afraid of terrorists, because they're putting up with all these ridiculously invasive new initiatives with nary a whimper. Sure, there are some isolated objectors (labeled by the media as "unpatriotic crackpots") who see what the administration is really doing, but on the whole, people are quite comfortable to let Bush and Cheney Inc. do what needs to be done, so they can feel safer.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
This gives us (3523*2)/58789194 * 100 = 0.0119851957827488% chance of being killed in an average lifetime by terrorism.
(For reference, the chance of winning the UK National Lottery is 0.0193366388688181%, if we assume that you play for 52 years in your life, every week.)
Phrew! I never play the lottery, so I guess I'm safe then!
And I've never had an average lifetime either. I always do my best to have the time of my life.
Defining Statistics and Social Research
What the fuck is a "terror suspect" supposed to be? I know what a "terror attack" is, it's when someone with a psychological disorder suddenly experiences terror when (s)he shouldn't. How about a "terror bombing"? Can bombs be full of terror? I am only familiar with bombs that explode with fire and shockwaves.
Here's a new drinking game for everyone. Every time you see "terror" used as an adjective in such a way that makes no sense at all yell "BULLSHIT" and take a drink.
So you work for the CIA?
Chris Mesterharm
You're assuming the historical low risk of being killed by terrorism, was generated during a period without Draconian restrictions.
There is however a good argument to be had, that even historically there were Draconian restrictions (ask a Sein Fein member in the late 1980s whether he thought there were Draconian restrictions), and that it might have been these Draconian restrictions which kept terrorism at a lower level than might have otherwise been the case.
(The supposed more Draconian restrictions today, may not actually be significantly more Draconian, but just qualitively different, unfamiliar and therefore more visible, hyped more by the press/government, etc.)
So to sum up, we don't really know what the risk of terrorism would be with less Draconian laws - because we've never tried it. (Although personaly I also suspect, as you do, the risk is greatly exaggerated).
I have to differ here. I'm old enough to be the parent of a teenager, and I find myself more alienated and radicalised than I've ever been. I remember being told that I couldn't be an angry young man forever. The man who told me was right. I am now an angrier, more bitter, more cynical and more utterly alienated old (well, comparatively) man than ever before.
When I was twenty, I actually believed that people in government might sincerely act with my best interests at heart, as a matter of policy and general conduct. That's just an example of the sort of dewy-eyed naivete of which I was capable, and even then I had an utter distaste for humanity at large's conduct.
I think the difference is that most people reach a stage of shrugging their shoulders and not bothering any more. I never reached that point. My curse is that I care.
I wouldn't be surprised if your survey found that percentage of Baptist already thought the US is a Christian state. You need to define what a Christian state is . Ant semblance of hasn't existed for at least one and more like 2 centuries. Does a Christian state mean women stay home and cook and clean and aren't allowed to have jobs? Women aren't allowed to vote? If you described a Christian state in such terms I doubt you would find for than a few fringe lunatics who supported it. Yet even the most liberal Muslim states are far more repressive and they currently exists and are well defined. The logic of your analogy kind of falls apart when looked at a little more closely.
And they are perfectly welcome to. The problem is the rules they want me to live under force me to abide by their archaic repressive religious laws. Yes they are required to conform some of those rules to live in my society. But for the most part the rules in my society are designed to protected to society as a whole rather then any one set of beliefs in the society. As an example I really don't think a woman who is about to be stoned to death for the abhorrent crime of adultery would have much interest in living under Sharia law. Although I could be wrong but my society protects the individuals rights in such cases.Who is John Galt?
So should Iraq monitor the bank accounts of Americans to try and devine where the next attack is going to be?
Kind Regards
"A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
If someone is suspected of being a terrorist, and you are a bank that is allowing the government to watch his/her accounts, WHY would you close the account, sending said suspected terrorist into hiding and making him/her aware that they were being watched?
What makes me think the government has the potential to be worse than the terrorists is that they seem so unbelievably incompetent.
Apparently, since this guy went to the press, one would assume he was not a terrorist - or the ballsiest terrorist ever - so they weren't even tracking the right person.
So not only are they violating our privacy by looking at our bank accounts, they are STUPID to boot and making mistakes that drive law abiding people to distrust, or even begin to hate, the government.
Hold on - deep breath. And again, deep breath.
Ok, I'm going to crawl back in my hole and do what the rest of the world apparently does - HOPE the odds are in my favor and they don't accidentally make a mistake that affects me.
It appears your laziness has gotten the best of you. It took me about a minute to find this on Wikipedia which seems to contradict your claim...
"A persistent myth is that the "World" in "World Series" came about because the New York World newspaper sponsored it. Baseball researcher Doug Pappas refutes that claim, demonstrating a linear progression from the phrase "World's Championship Series" (used to describe the 1903 series as well as some of the 19th-century postseason series) to "World's Series" (a term first used in the 1880s and which persisted for decades) to "World Series". Furthermore, investigation of the New York World for the relevant years revealed no evidence of the supposed sponsorship. (For details, see Mr. Pappas' web page on the subject.)"
Laziness is why false truths persist for so long. Please feel free to not be lazy and find something that says otherwise.
We all sit here patting ourselves on our backs for maintaining vigilance of the state, yet not doing much about it. The problem is that the masses dont have a clue about any of this, dont get it, and dont care so long as their reality tv is on every night. Just as the dude who was wearing the arabic t shirt in JFK was told (paraphrase) "these people dont care about these things [human rights/free speech]". That's what the govt is counting on.
So stop railing against the govt and start educating the people. Give them a reason to care, dont just rant at them too. Its not getting us anywhere.
-mathx.
"ridiculous"
And...have you been watching TV recently? The current Sunni strategy in Iraq is to behead as many Shi'ites as possible - on TV - in order to intimidate the Kurds and the Shi'ites. I mean, do you remember November 2005 in Jordan?
And...I am serious. Ex-military (Desert Shield/Storm vet.), and generally interested in the world.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
I grew up in Galway, from 1968 through 1984 - when I left Ireland.
The IRA did all its terrorism in Northern Ireland, apart from one visit to Dublin in 1974.
I despise the IRA as a Marxist-Leninist insurgency. That said, the IRA never blew up civilians in Jerusalem, New York, Washingon DC, Bali, etc.
So, screw you and the IRA thing.
Though, since the IRA eventually morphed into a drug-smuggling crime empire, I guess I have a sense of where al Qaeda is going.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
NT
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
It's been five years now. We all sit and mourne those we lost, we cry about the hatred in the world, we scream for the violence to stop, we sue everyone who reminds us of the horrible racist past our nation is guilty of, we hold hands and give candy and teddy bears to kids and sing songs about peace, our leaders disappear, we sit and watch muslim radicals walk right across our border, we let politicians demand for us to give up in Iraq, to give up in Afghanistan, to give up on Israel, to give up on democracy, and to avoid war entirely unconditionally... Our enemies kill us and laugh at how weak our nation has become.
... if the wonderful laws introduced in the UK (and to a worst extent in the US) do not allow even the indicted to know about the charges brought against them?
You are realling misdirecting your anger, due process is being severely damaged and people like you don't challenge the spoon feed assumptions of the authorities.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
What about if you are innocent of the charges, wise AC?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... Western civilization would be dead anyway, the murder a tragedy of our own making.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Don't you know that all banks in all developed countries have a central register for "bad" customers?
If HBCS has frozen the account and ask to terminate relationsship they will have him put on the black list as well - it's standart procedure.
And getting off that list - even when innocent - is not easy. And finding a new bank when you are on the list is more then difficult. Only banks with nasty conditions/interest rates will then take you.
Realy you should qualify for compensation in such a case - but you are not of corse. You probably won't even get a "We are sorry" letter.
Martin
what happens when there is a economic jihad and muslems all over the world refuse to buy american products goods and services. america would be bankrupt overnight.? someone better start leading this nation.