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Opening Zune Sales Flaccid
An anonymous reader writes "As 'Black Friday' approaches and consumers line up for the Playstation 3 it looks like Zune has become an afterthought. Despite months of hype, opening Zune sales are only so-so. While Zune did reach the top 10 on Amazon's Top 25 list for electronic product sales on its first day, it quickly fell below the top 15 and continues to drop. Six separate iPod models now outsell it as well as SanDisk's e250 player. In-store sales are not much better."
Hello from Seattle. Hello? Anybody here?
Let's hope this product is zune to be forgotten!
/me ducks barrage of tomatoes
I think (just my opinion) with all of the up-front hype and the resulting "flaccid" initial sales figures, Microsoft may have offered up a pretty big loser. Why? Because so much about the Zune and (some of) its features depend on the social network aspect to achieve functionality, and that won't happen with this slow of a ramp.
The flip side, also not good, is that with the slow uptake, the disappointing lack of ability to really use the wireless (because of a dearth of "others") will generate a viral, grassroots word of mouth ripple discourageing potential "others" to buy.
Now slap on the silly DRM, the incompatiblity with almost everything else, the silly purchase plan (float MS a loan anyone?), this product is going nowhere fast. In some ways, too bad, it actually looked to have a certain coolness, but Microsoft forgot and left too heavy a signature...
Maybe the good news out of all of this is the added prompting for makers like Apple to be more aggressive rolling out things like wireless, etc., though it looks to me like Apple has titrated their rollout almost perfectly.
when you think you can enter into a saturated market just because you have huge mounds of cash. What's next, a chain of Microsoft restaurants? I have an idea, why doesn't Microsoft start selling shoes?
Microsoft has gotten so large that it has no direction. They'll just piss money into the wind trying to crowbar into other markets as the fancy strikes them.
Its Zune, on Amazon's top 100 products :)
Fantastic work their Microsoft, beaten by even iPod cases and cheap ass dvd players
"WebTV: bringing the Internet into the shallow end of the gene pool since 1995" - Martin Bishop
Just goes to show, Apple knows hard and black is the way to go!
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
Frankly, I'm amazed that the thing got into the Amazon top ten list at all. I wonder how many units you have to sell in a day to get on that list, and just how many of those units were Evil Empire minions buying one for the team?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Balmer's idea is find something to do a Lock-IN.
Consumers DO NOT WANT TO BE LOCKED IN.
All else is BS.
It was almost as if Microsoft said "Let's throw millions of dollars at a market and see if we can get a piece of it." The fact that it was trying to enter a market that is already flooded with similar products doesn't help. The fact that the Zune is incompatible with Microsoft's music files doesn't help.
This is not to say that Microsoft should stay out of consumer electronics. The Xbox 360 has a good chance of being the dominant console this generation (outside of Japan). The Zune just happens to be a waste of time and money.
This is normal for Microsoft. The first release of a new product never does well. Windows 1 was terrible. Early versions of Excel weren't competitive with Lotus 1-2-3. The original Internet Explorer was lame. It took three years before ".NET" made any sense. Direct-X was terrible in its early versions. The original Xbox worked but was a huge money drain on Microsoft.
Then Microsoft fixes the problem. Each new release gets better. In time, the competition is crushed.
Check ebay. Prices have already crashed to ~$1200 for a 60GB unit, and below $1000 for the 20GB model. Further there are over 25000 units listed and no where near enough buyers. Folks who listed with a buy it now at $3000 - $3500 are going to be sorely disappointed. I suspect that we'll see equilibrium well below twice retail, and possibly less than 1.5 times within a week.
So, how long before I can walk into a Toys 'R Us or Target and pick one off the shelf? Perhaps even before Christmas. This is the most amazing example of an economic boom to bust I've ever seen.
People have already wizened up to MP3 players. The popular ones don't have proprietary file formats, have a USB mass storage connection and a FM radio. Zune fails on all counts.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
You know, PDA's running Windows where initially a sales dog. Now where is Palm?
You mean Micro and Soft?
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
I spot a pattern with Microsoft releasing hardware. They do it late, they make big and clonky hardware, and they tie it to their operating system.
Exhibit 1: PocketPC. It flopped twice before taking off, and by then, it was too late, because the PDA was already a sinking star and most people needing the functionality bought smartphones instead. There was no way that a HUGE and clumsy PocketPC device of ~year2000 was going to compete with the dapper Palm V/Vx, and it didn't. Too big, too mediocre, too late.
Exhibit 2: Microsoft Phone. Anyone remember those? Wireless landline phones which hooked into your PC and gave you an on-screen warning about who was calling and a summary of all calls. Well, the thing was HUGE, could only be used with certain PCs, and flaws like someone rebooting a PC tossing people off-line. And by the time it came out, most phones already had all that functionality built in to the phone. The MS phone didn't have a display, the competition did. Too big, too mediocre, too late.
Exhibit 3: Zune. Compare this to the iPod Nano or Sony Ericsson Walkman phones. It's too big, too mediocre, too late.
There's other examples of failed MS hardware too, like tablet PCs (which were re-launched no less than THREE times before finally finding a niche). The only MS hardware I can think of that has achieved some success are the keyboards and joysticks (although I would think Logitech holds a much bigger market share).
Regards,
--
*Art
It's going to be a year before the launch in the EU (if they even bother now), here's a list of lessons they need to learn before they launch over here.
That's what you get for introducing a player that supports all the sucky audio formats (mp3, wma) and none of the good ones (vorbis) :-p
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Zune;
h e_Republic%2C_Updated
It is trampling out the storage where the Costless Tunes are store'd,
It hath loosed the flaccid lighting of its terrible short release;
Its songs are marching out.
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Its songs are marching out!
I have seen it in the watch-fires of a hundred wary bands!
They have builded it an altar in the circling doom and damp;
I can read its righteous screen by the dim and flaring lamps;
Its songs are marching out.
(chorus)
I have read a fiery gospel written in burnished rows of plastic;
"As you deal with my develop'rs, so with you my grace will deal,"
Let the Ballmer, born of spittle, kill the serpent with a chair;
The Zune is marching out.
(chorus)
In the beauty of the birch, Linus was born across the sea;
With a glory in his boxen that transfigures you and me;
As he hacked to make boxes holy, let us code to make Windows free;
While the Zune is marching out.
(chorus)
It is coming like the glory of the storm upon the farm-er,
It is Horror to the drummer, it is Destruc'shn to the bass,
So the world shall be its crypt, and the soul of Jobs its David;
The Zune is marching on.
(chorus)
(if you're wondering why it's re-updated, go look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_t
Ninjas and pirates. How piquant.
Sure, we all understand nobody likes the king of the hill, no matter if it is deserved or not.
But I hope this helps put to rest the continued notion that iPods only sell so well only because they are a marketing gimmick or some status symbol only to be worn to look 'cool'.
The iPod is, for years now, been a well designed and well executed product. The scroll wheel introduced with the first iPod minis soon appeared on the complete iPod line when everyone including Apple realized it is what seperates it from all the other mp3 player interfaces. Well, it did until Zune and many others tried to imitate it.
The iTunes interface won over many converts from Winamp and Musicmatch Jukebox before they even owned an iPod. Simplicity and power won over again. The iTMS isn't the best selling store by accident.
Sure, the iPod is hyped, but perhaps it is for a good reason. People aren't dropped hundreds of dollars because they're stupid. At least for not this long and for this many years and different iPod models. Has there been a single iPod model that flopped?
People aren't dropped hundreds of dollars because they're stupid
lol
The work "Zune" may enter the lexicon as a word akin to Edsel or Pinto.
I heard a guy at work yesterday mentioning Sony's battery recall and commenting they "pulled a brown Zune" in terms of their marketing failure to deal with the problem correctly. (Brown being the least popular color for the Zune).
Think of the uses... "The Republicans got handed a Zune in the last election".
...but not really.
"There is no Honor, without Pie."
-Weeble
99% posts that in one way or another pick Microsoft apart
0.5% intressting reads
0.5% dupes of above
Sad place this have become.
It's here: http://malfy.org/
The really frustrating thing about the Zune is that it is essentially a terrific product. The problem is Microsoft's insistence at putting the interests of vendors first and the interests of their customers a distant second. If they'd only let the damn hardware do all it could do, the thing would be selling like hotcakes. The Zune's wi-fi capability COULD let you share whole playlists, and COULD let you be a DJ and stream to several Zunes simultaneously, and COULD let you share music without wrapping it in arbitrary DRM and COULD let you sync it with a PC without a cable. It could also let you use it as a hard drive and let you sync it with a Mac or a Linux box. But no. Instead, Microsoft's DRM tightassness won't let the Zune be all it could be and what we have now will go down in history as the Bob of music players.
But the handful of other posters are dead-on accurate as to why the Zune is going to fail.
There is already word of mouth that the Zune is encumbered with myriad of limitations. The whole product launch follows a very traditional marketing strategy complete with a flash yet typical advertising campaign. In the days of yore, a company could manufacture hype for a product. Before the internet, word of mouth spready very, very slowly. Now, if you fuck it up -- you're done. Really done.
Who was Microsoft marketing the Zune to exactly? One could only hope that they would have actually done some market research on their target demographic. Enough to know that these people aren't as gullible as they once thought. Clearly, this isn't the case.
The product itself follows the mantra of design-by-deception. Forget all of the stuff about DRM and fair-use. Although that did play a part, the true problem with the Zune is that it was a product manufactured by people who really didn't want it to succeed. The modus operandi of corporations is to build a system to maintain the status quo. We're in a period of time where innovation threatens the life blood of the huge conglomorate. Sure, this threat has always existed -- but not to such a degree as it does today. The unwritten motivation for every decision is to make sure that everything is built to keep things from progressing beyond a company's capacity to adapt. Adaptation brings risk, and nobody in a position of executive privilege truly wants to accept responsibility for a failure, or responsibility for controlling risk. It's PMI training gone haywire.
So, how does this manifest? The Zune is a perfect example. They see the threat coming, they don't want to assume any risk, they design a product to fail and thus hurt the industry where the so-called rising star is coming from, and maintain the status quo.
It's truly brilliant, but this strategy is never laid on paper. It's never communicated. It's simply the ebb and flow of business, which is itself a manifestation of the human being's drive towards power and influence, which is completely derived from human desire for their memory to outlive their physical being due to doubts about the true meaning of life and death.
In an ironic twist, many don't realize that by being a part of the problem, by sacrificing forward progress, they are in fact going against the very nature of man's ambitions. This is, of course, manic. It's probably why we built the bomb, build biological weapons, etc. It's the vain hope that someday somebody actually will make a mistake and wipe us all out, so that some creature down the road might learn from our mistakes and by doing so, we may have a final, romantic sense of redepmtion for our own.
At frist glance it might seem like a lock in, but look at it carefully. You can listen to an ITMS song on your computer, up to 4 other computers, burn it to a CD, or listen to it on your iPod. The biggest thing to remember is that once you've burned it to a CD, it's pretty much open season what you can do with it then.
my pet machine
That's simply not true. Apple has the worst lock in sceme in the entire consumer electronics industry, yet people line up outside their stores like they're in the former Soviet Union waiting for toilet paper. Slashdot geeks all hyped up on Jolt and Slashdot groupthink don't want lock in. Consumers at large couldn't care less.
Remember kids, when Microsoft has a monopoly, that's bad, but when Apple has one, it's good!
Don't forget the XBox. I have had a PS2 for many years, and my girlfriend recently bought an XBox to play a single game. I couldn't believe what a piece of shit it was! It's huge compared to the PS2. At least 5 times as large, it's loud (both the fan, and the stupid menu when no disk is in makes some stupid cartoon robot sound), it's obnoxious, and all of the parts and controls on it look like they're made for retarded, giant, kindergarteners. It reminded me of the first time I saw the dashboard of a modern American car after always driving Japanese. Big, clunky, ugly, and cheap. Just the way most Americans want it.
So I take it nobody's done any squirting yet?
---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
They used to be tops of their markets, and everyone laughed when M$ tried to compete with them. Now Lotus is a memory, Palm is a close second, and Netscape went open source in order to offer an alternative to the clear winner of the "Browser Wars". Oh, and let's not forget a little something called the XBOX and how we all laughed that it would ever be more popular than the PlayStation. I don't want M$ to succeed; I'm just afraid that history will repeat itself yet again.
->
You do know that the iPod is by FAR and away the most popular MP3 player, right? It plays proprietary music (in addition to several standard formats) and has no FM radio receiver... So I'd say those features are not relevant to people's purchase decisions for MP3 players...
"I like systems, their application excepted", George Sand (French)
I'd say flaccid is a good way of describing Microsoft ;).
"The boy is dangerous, they all sense it, why can't you?"
The product sold out, irregardless of what the current price on ebay is. And people did line up to buy it, there's certainly more demand for PS3s right now than for the Zune.
That the price has dropped on ebay is great news, it's stupid to buy this console at such ridiculous prices (including the 1200 you listed there, it's just stupid)
- sigs are for wimps.
Who would buy a Rock for a Pet? yet....it happened.
There is a whole untapped market of gifts that are "not nice". I mean, what do you get someone in the family when you HAVE to get them a present, but you don't like them?
Perhaps they could do a tie-in with those new "LearnAboutCoal.org" commercials and throw Santa in there too.
SANTA: "Well, lets see little Johnny has been very Naughty this year, so he gets a lump of coal!"
Johnny: "Well at least I can burn this and keep warm for a few minutes"
SANTA: "And little Bobby has been especially naughty so he gets a Zune!"
Bobby: "Whaaaa!!!......."
[end tag]: UPS voiceover: "What can Brown do for YOU?"
I like microcars
*queue tumbleweed*
Ah we all knew it was gonna be a flop anyway. I guess what they say about microsoft and vacuum cleaners is true then...
95% of all computer errors occur between chair and keyboard (TM)
Guess we know what happens when the mousetrap isn't better.
Is it just me or does MS seem to design everything by a giant committee, headed up by accountants and market-speak droids?
The seem to be used to dealing with business customers who don't understand computers and don't want or need to -- they just know that MS is the 'best of breed' and MS will take care of their every need. They have no imagination and no ideas of their own about how a computer could solve their problems, or what they want out of it -- they just want to sit down at a training course and have MS tell them how a computer works and what to do with it. They are just there for the ride, eagerly consuming whatever lowest-common-denominator crap MS pumps out.
Meanwhile, the younger kids coming up are computer savy, have a general idea of how computers work and what you can expect out of them, and most importantly what sucks and what doesn't. That's why the iPod has built such a strong brand -- not for its sleek styling, but for its user friendly interface. Instead of another button for another feature, it has *basically* one button (or two buttons, or one nested button) for *all* of its features. This is what the music listeners of today want -- an *easy* way to get to their music. This is worth repeating -- the iPod is simply the easiest path to their music. That's all.
Meanwhile, the MS zune seems to be designed to please music labels and MS' own need for vendor lock-in, with its DRM, shoddy music store, and crappy sharing features. Go ahead, please everyone but the customer who you expect to pay for the privilege of using your crap. Though I must admit, it does work well in the business world.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
only product. Otherwise they'll be on "the social" soon enough.
.. shame about Windows :-).
I've liked most of the early MS hardware like mice, keyboards and even the odd joystick - it was real good quality stuff.
But I don't care one jot for all the hardware that locks me in, xbox included. I have an iPod because it supports MP3, and I'll buy the real CDs of music I like because (unlike anything electronic) it makes it always very easy to prove I actually bought the record and it's a decent backup.
I haven't bothered with buying anything through iTunes, if they sell MP3 files I may but that doesn't seem likely, and there's no way I'm going to buy something I can't play elsewhere when I change my mind about the player.
Ditto for PC - if DRM becomes unavoidable I will still avoid it by switching platform (go for a Mac, or use Ubuntu more than about 75% of the time). There are few reasons left for me to run Windows, and I can always buy a console for games. I can't see the point of paying extra for being forced to pay extra, if you see what I mean: we all pay the cost for the extra 'protection' without it having any benefit for ourselves. A bit like the Mafia of old, just electronic and this time government supported.
Now, back from that digression: a company like MS can afford to throw a couple of millions at a market to see if it works. Call it a sort of R&D.
Here.
Most of them seem to be very favourable.
First few days is really too early to judge a product sales figures.
Seriously, Microsoft has not done anywhere near the amount of marketing that Apple has done. That may change the closer we get to Christmas, we'll see. Frankly, I think flooding the market with ads this close to the holidays is a wash.
But to say that the iPod is popular because of its superior design is subjective. Surely you remember hearing about screen problems, surface scratching, sleep mode problems. Problems arise, they fix them (or at least we hope they do). I suspect any technical problems with the Zune will be addressed by Microsoft as well.
I chuckled when I saw that the Best Buy and Frye's Electronics ad yesterday had no mention of the Zune.
The link in the parent post had some well thought out arguments about the mistakes that Microsoft have made and what needs to be done for it to have any chance of success in europe. Although the site looks like its been written by an apple fanboy, this article actually seems well thought out and the bias is minimal
Well, it is Micro soft .
Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
I had such high hopes for the Zune but Microsoft DRM'd it to death. I'm so tired of being told what I can an cannot do with music I've purchased. I know its only a 'license' but still, I paid real (ok, fictional) money for it.
The actions of the RIAA and MPAA were the prime reasons for my becoming an EFF member.
... why are they selling for over 1K?
Yes, there is a small supply, but for sure there's more demand for them than for the Zune (and more consumer awareness of it too, ask a random person what a Zune is and see what look you are going to get).
If no one wants them, they wouldn't be selling on ebay at all.
- sigs are for wimps.
If the Amazon list doesn't distinguish between different prices, it's pretty worthless. The San Disk player costs $139.00 USD. That's just the manufacturer's list price.
A quick froogle search will save you 40 bucks.
The Zune is 150 bucks more on the same site.
I agree it's going to be a tough uphill climb for Zune to dethrone the iPod gorilla. Assuming the most casual shopper does even a little research, they'll probably get an iPod.
"Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair" - George Washington
Well, I'd never buy anything with lines like "Welcome to the social" on it anyway. I still have really hard times accepting it as being valid unfunny English with a meaning.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
a while ago i remember reading Microsoft people said it might take 5 years to catch on. this was before the iPod even hit its 5th birthday.
1) if it will be a supposed hit in 5 years, why buy one today?
2) who knows what iPods, or any MP3 players will be in 5 years.
just for reference take the first iPod (5 GB), jump 5 years to the nano (tiny! 8GB, color screen, lots of battery life etc). if they can not merge a good MP3 player with tons of storage in a cell phone in the next 5 years, then i quit. i am sure some sort of standalone players will exist (for running or whatever), video players, wifi whatever. if iPods still exist, i would guess they have a slow evolution. the simplicity is what makes them so popular.
...Oh wait, they renamed that to Vista. Nevermind, flaccid it is!
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
It's brown and it comes from Microsoft. Do I really need to say anything else?
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
I remember hearing about the Origami project last year, what ever became of it?
I don't get why anybody would buy this when iPods are cheaper for the same capacity.
There's already a considerable ecosystem of accessories and attachments for the iPod.
It works with two open formats... mp3 and aac.
iTunes works with Mac, Windows 2K, XP, and Vista.
Does anybody want to buy this because they can send a song to a friend and he/she can listen to it 3 times. That's it? That's the feature I've gotta have? It doesn't even "Play for Sure!".
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
The brilliant people at Microsoft thought they could wow the public with marketing and still keep the price at the same level as the iPod. What they don't seem to get is that not only is the iPod good at playing customers music but it's also got a cool factor, 'in' crowd, etc stigma attached to it that equal price isn't enough.
Not until Microsoft starts selling the device at a good loss( like WinCE and Xbox ) and really undercut the competition, the Zune is soon to be doomed. IMO. I do think that Microsoft will drop the price on this since Bill G keeps pushing it like it's the next great thing and since they control the hardware( Xbox ) they can hide the losses in R&D or marketing or some other place. It'll probably sell well at $150 and definately not above $200. Only Microsoft fan-boys would purchase it at existing prices. Again, IMO.
And like they did with Palm/PalmOS, the iPod is a threat to Windows in that it can grow a community totally outside the control of Microsoft. Grow a platform API( iTunes, iPod video, etc ) outside of Microsoft control and all this is a threat to Windows and the Windows monopoly. So they WILL drop the price and start taking a larger loss on the productline. Heck, they've LOST over $8billion on WindowsCE alone so losing a couple of billion on Zune to drop Appls marketshare to 50% is worth it to them. Remember, they must proect the WindowsOS gravy train.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Despite months of hype
Maybe it's because I own a Tivo, but... what hype? I haven't seen anything on TV, in magazines, on buses, etc.
And regarding the title of this thread, "Opening Zune Sales Flaccid" - do the editors' entire existences revolve around thoughts of sexual inadequacy? That's one of the silliest sentences I've seen put together anywhere. It's pathetic even by Slashdot's juvenile standards.
#DeleteChrome
iPod was great! Zune eh... everyone that wanted an iPod or something similar has probably gotten one. My Local EB Games got two in the day of release. Guess what... they still have two and so many accessories they can't even put them all out on the floor.
well i have to say it, i cannot imagine this is from same company (/. jokes aside) that made one of the most useful (useful as in whats getting used) products of our time (windows).
.11 in a lame way just to differentiate from ipod.
1. lets start from appearance. its big, bulky and brown. tries to imitate click wheel but has pushbutton beneath the wheel.. why the hell they have to copy ipod if they cannot due to click wheel patent. wheel is not the end of the world.
2. user experience - websites are full of installation errors and the background picture they chose for it -- women having orgasm! can't they have QA'ed it some more on their own machines!
3. wireless -- great idea implementde just the wrong way on all the wrong fronts. you cannot connect to your computer using wireless. it can only connect to buddies to whom you can trasnfer songs (3day/3times limit). on a device where poewr consumption is critical and zune already sucks, they chose to have
4. they have marketplace-- where you buy a song for 79 points (wtf dollars are for?). and you can buy 80 points for one dollar. but you can buy only in increments of 5 dollars. looks like MSFT is trying to increase calculator sales. god knows why!
5. their own playforsure is not supported
6. they make this future gadget which is not compatible with their OS of the century (vista).
if you search for reasons for ipods success, first and foremost thing is its simple to use and it works! microsft tried to copy ipod and finally came up with this incredibly complex incredibly useless functionalities!
someone rightly said microsft innovates at places where it shouldnt. if they had just copied ipod and put their market force behind it, it would have been better.
I dont know how nuclear reactor works but any college grad can tell zune is an utter bullshit product.
Is there a worse word to have associated with the release of a new technology product?
No, I didn't think so. Might as well just say the device causes prostate cancer, and be done with it.
Agreed, apple's monopoly will give sleek products.
it'll be a big hit on Woot!
Friends help you move... Real friends help you move bodies...
remind me ... which antitrust laws on both sides of the atlantic did apple break to build their monopoly?
Why is this comment moderated troll? This is an interesting and insightful reply TO a troll, it isn't a troll itself. Remember, a troll usually makes a generalized, simple-minded, and inflammatory remark to start a heated argument.. this post doesn't do that at all. On the contrary, it makes some very good points.
For shame, Slashdot.
I must have missed all the articles where Steve Jobs attempted to subvert the creation and marketing of Zune and other competing iPod products in order to maintain the near-monopoly and crush the competition. As far as I know, iPod is successful based off it's own merits, and the dancing silhouettes.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
Ha-ha.
I don't personally have any strong feelings about Apple one way or the other -- I've never used an Apple product so I can't say anything about them.
But it's important for you to remember, *there is nothing wrong with having a monopoly*.
It's abusing that monopoly's power that is illegal. Having a monopoly is OK and legal.
You can't trust amazon.com reviews. You do not know if the reviewers had any vested interest in the product to give it a good review. I have seen this with a grad student praising his professor's book. The grad student then formed a startup and hired his professor as CTO.
Might it be because Apple earned their near-monopoly with the quality of the product while Microsoft did it with the quality of their subethical marketing strategies?
Now, mod me down freely. My karma can't get any worse...
Why is no one making jokes about the title "Flaccid" sales? Look it up, definitely wrong word to use!
What I don't understand, is what exactly they would pump millions into?
The marketing? R&D?
A little too late for either of these if the product establishes itself as "worthless".
If noone is buying it, what exactly can MS pump money into? Services that nobody is using? Overstocking the stores with something nobody is buying?
What kind of long-term strategy is that? Develop a crappy product that even the reviewers hate then pour money down the drain?
I saw one of them at the local Wally world. The pictures on the display case were all sideways, since the models were set up upright. What kind of display genius at MS thought that would be a good way to show it off?
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
I cannot understand why people ditch this fabulous product! After all, it was made from the same company which brought us the securest and most stable operating system of all times!
Do not trust this signature.
I think the sales are pretty good actually. In an MP3 player saturated market. To jump so far ahead of so many competitors is actually quite a feat. If anyone thought it would suddenly outsell Ipod on opening day they were thinking far differently from what I believe Microsoft's expectations were of the product.
Zune is making its mark right now as a considerable competitor. Many more will sell over the new year.
Microsoft has already taken a large chunk of Apple's customers.
Squirt! Come one why did he use the word "Squirt". Of all the stupid ways to describe the wireles features of his product. What could be more off putting.
News flash Steve this country has gotten pretty darn liberal in the social sense compared to where it was say 20, 30, and espically 50 years ago but the average American still wants little or nothing to do with squirting anything, save maybe a water pistol and even then only children, on or at anyone else in (at least in public) much less haveing it done to them. The connotations are just bad. When we think of squirting Steve most of us imagine embassasing missadventures with a mustard packet at lunch not something sexy; even if we did think sex its not in a sexy way.
Really would it have been so hard to say "beam", "zap", "shoot", "send", or "pass". All of us understand concepts of exchanging media in terms of sending as in mail, beam as in Star Trek transporter(even non geeks know that one), shoot as in t-shirt cannon, pass and in hand off object; there was no need to use the word "squirt". I don't have a marketing background but I could have told you describing the sharing features in terms of "squriting" was about the most off putting way talking about it possible.
Now where can I find an pretty girl to rope with the end a 2' headset wire as another man named Steve with equally severe, though less discusting, reality distortion issues suggested.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
that the Zune.... just can't get it('s sales) up?
Cliff Claven
K.E.G. Party Chairman
Founding Leader of: Koncerned for Egalitarin Governance
The scroll wheel already separated the iPod from the other MP3 players. The clickwheel from the Mini is what carried over to the rest of the iPod line.
Maybe next time Microsoft will try harder by using a grammatically correct slogan as opposed to "welcome to the social".
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
I have tried my best since first hearing of the Zune to think of it in a non-partisan (Apple v. Microsoft) perspective. However, after seeing one for myself, reading multiple reviews which are both glowing and disparaging, and hearing reactions from other users, my initial suspicions are confirmed. Quite frankly, if I ever had need or desire of the alleged functionality of the Zune, I would have simply bought a Palm LifeDrive instead. As it is, my 4 gig iPod and Tungsten E2 perform admirably for any and every need I could conceive. The only remarkable aspect of the Zune is the WiFi interface which is disappointingly dedicated to limited file sharing with other Zune users. If such a capability were expanded to include any device able to receive or send a file, I could see the point of it. However, it reminds me far too much of some of those early WiFi game devices which let one play against other users in their immediate area. I bought one as a teenager and was frustrated that it seemed I was the only owner wherever I went. I can only imagine how disappointing it would be to drop so much cash for a prettified MP3 player only to find myself alone in the coffeeshop.
In truth, I believe the poor initial showing of the Zune has far more to do with a waning influence of Microsoft than any serious issue with the device itself. Many Windows users I have spoken to are very wary of the upcoming Vista release and more than a little tired of continual security issues being exposed. PlayStation 3 appears to be a killer machine and far ahead of anything the Xbox line is capable of, at the present time. The last two years may very well be looked back on someday as the beginning of the final decline of Microsoft.
Which has nothing to do with the Zune of course.
- sigs are for wimps.
This is normal for Microsoft. The first release of a new product never does well. Windows 1 was terrible.
And the 17th release is also terrible, but sells well.
The difference here is that Windows 1.0 wasn't fighting an entrenched monopoly, and Excel, IE, and others fere fighting an entrenched monopoly that decided to go to sleep for a few years.
The biggest competitor in the early 1980's was the Apple II, which Apple graciously pulled the plug on to shift everybody to the Mac -- which at the time was far more expensive, and completely incompatible. Lotus made numerous mistakes with 1-2-3. Netscape decided to mostly rewrite Navigator and so had no releases for a few years.
Unless you think Apple is going to just stop developing the iPod, it's hard to imagine how Microsoft will make serious in-roads with this. They're not even a hardware company: Dell is, and they tried a portable music player, and it failed miserably.
Can you name a product (and not a Windows library like DirectX) that Microsoft developed in the presence of an established, competent monopoly (as Apple is with the iPod), and which succeeded?
.. coz, the image of Microsoft is like the image of a boring, dirty old man.
Yukkk
I remember burning an MP3 to a CD in around 1997 or 1998. This was on an Amiga too. You have to ask yourself under which rock Microsoft have been hiding.
They've repeated the same mistake as Sony, not taking interest in mp3 and instead concentrating on their own format (wma, for Sony it was ATRAC).
Apple got theirs in much the same way as Microsoft.
They were among the first.
They spent a lot of money on PR and advertising.
They bullied a lot of other people around to get on top.
Leave it those Germans to think of a much better way of building gadgets. The Gravel has the controls BEHIND the screen allowing for a smaller footprint than anything Apple or Microsoft has. I don't know why nobody has thought about doing this in the first place.... http://uk.gizmodo.com/2006/09/01/commodore_gravel_ in_pocket_por.html
So, all you anti-MS wise guys who said the wireless would drain the batteries too quickly, well, I guess that won't be happening, since there's nobody else to talk to. Didn't think of that, now did ya? But of course no one will admit they were wrong.
At time of writing, the brown Zune is at number 79 in the Amazon top 100 (black Zune is down to number 21).
I don't expect the brown zune to still be in the top 100 after the weekend.
However, Ars Technica (an Apple-friendly, but fair site, IMO) gave a pretty positive review for the Zune (7 out of 10), even though they pointed out the early flaws of this product. If you're not familiar with Ars Technica reviews, they are the ones that published some rather infamous iPod reviews where they tested durability by putting an iPod in a washing machine, running it over with a car, and dropping it from a third-story balcony onto concrete (covered on Slashdot). BTW, they gave the newest iPod Shuffle 7/10 and the 2nd generation Nano got 8/10.
TO START
PRESS ANY KEY
Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...
We'll see if Redmond's new gadget doesn't have the checkered history of that old piece of ordnance:s _1999_Sept_27/ai_55820860
http://www.ordnance.org/mishaps.htm
anyone who's ever seen the flick "Trial by Fire" about the USS Forrestal disaster might not know that now Senator McCain's aircraft was on the receiving end of the zuni that started it all:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/i
Naming products can be tricky, no?
You forgot the part where people are locked into iPod/iTunes/iTMS because of DRM-encumbered tracks which are only Apple compatible.
The Black Zune is currently being beaten by seven different iPods.
And only 7 ipods above it (including 5 top 10 and #1)...
;->
Larger than an ipod, wireless. Lame...
[All Your Fish Are Belong To Us]
The article was comparing the PS3 and the Zune's demand, not the XBOX 360.
- sigs are for wimps.
One simple example that the Apple zealots always seem to "miss": Go try to buy a car that comes with an MP3 stereo option that ISN'T based on a proprietary Apple iPod connector, then get back to me. Apple have a de-facto monopoly on mp3 players and use that monopoly to disrupt the ability of competitors to do business. This is the very definition of abuse of monopoly status and Microsoft was crucified for just this kind of action. It is well past time for Apple to adhere to the same rules that every other company has to.
Who cares about Zune? I have an iPod. Give it up Microsoft, you've lost me. My iPod caused me to ditch my personal PC and get a PowerBook.
No really -- what the hell is a "Zune"?
I can understand "iPod": A pod refers to something small and seedlike, but it also references a 2001 (the film) style space capsule. The brand is a mix of modernity and capacity. The prefix "i" is common parlance for anything 'interactive'.
Now what the hell is a "Zune"? It sounds sort of African and primitive. It sort of sounds like "Dune", which adds to the desert reference. Or maybe "Rune" which also sounds primitive. If its supposed to sound like "Tune", then that's somewhere between funny and sad.
What's the software component of the "iPod"? Well, its "iTunes" of course. A name which needs no explanation.
What's the software component of the "Zune"? Is it "Windows Media Player"? (Another horribly branded product). No. That would have made home integration too easy. Actually the brand team came up with "Zune Software". I can see the "Yeah. I like that. I think it really works" conversation now.
I haven't played with a Zune, or even seen one so I can't comment on whether or not its any good. But I can comment on it from a brand perspective because I (like everyone here) has been inundated by the ads. And IMHO the brand is a dot-com style disaster in the making. It says nothing to me.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
"You forgot the part where people are locked into iPod/iTunes/iTMS because of DRM-encumbered tracks which are only Apple compatible"
You mean for
1. All 21 songs the average iPod user has bought from iTunes
2. which can easily be turned into regular MP3's by burning them to a CD and reripping
3. and which can be redownloaded anyway using the subscription services that every other DAP maker is hawking?
A. Competing companies are free to develop a "standard" way to connect to "remote control" devices (which is what the car basically is in this instance.
B. Are you choosing to simply ignore the other (obvious) choice that car manufacturers have?
Hint: It's 3.5mm in length.
Simple(ton) Economics:
Lets say they lose $50 per Zune, then the less they sell, the more they don't lose.
Disclosure: I work at Microsoft although I am in no way affiliated with the Zune team I think it's worth noting that it was the black Zune that reached #8 on Amazon's sales charts. The combined sales of black, brown and white Zunes would likely have peaked higher. Of course, the combined sales of all iPods would have surpassed that again, but the only difference between the Zunes is color so I'm not sure it makes sense to rank them separately (maybe the iPods are separated as well). I actually picked up a brown Zune earlier this week and really like it. One thing the pictures don't do justice for is the translucent colored casing which gives the edges a strange glowy highlight - green for brown, blue for black. The black actually looks pretty and the brown hip. White is for your mother -eh. As a music player, I can say it's really second to none except for the large size which I can see as a problem for those with tight jeans. The subscription aspect really knocks it out of the ballpark compared to an iPod for those of us who like to pay for our music. Incidentally the subscription also makes the sharing feature worthwhile - if someone shares a song I like I don't have to give it up in 3 plays, I can just sync the Zune and get a permanent copy from the online store. Granted, Redmond is probably one of the only places you're likely to have an opportunity to use the sharing feature, but hey, that's where I am. As a video player, having the giant screen is great, except for the fact that there's nothing to play on it since there's no video store and no legal way to rip DVDs (thanks DMCA!). Hopefully that will be remedied soon in an update.
Items Ordered Price
1 of: Zune 30 GB Digital Media Player (Black) [Electronics] $249.99
Sold by: Amazon.com
- 1 item(s) Gift options: None
Item(s) Subtotal: $249.99
Shipping & Handling: $11.47
-----
Total Before Tax: $261.46
-----
Total for this Shipment: $261.46
I was at WalMart today walking through the electronics section, and I stopped, as usual to look at the mp3 players. My 9 year old son saw the Zune sitting off to the side, and said "wow, that's ugly dad!" My 4 year old son promptly poitned at it and said "haha! stupid!"
Nuff said.
Microsoft's problem is that they came too late to the game, and then targeted the wrong market. If they wanted to produce a high-end competitor to the iPOD, they needed to do it two years ago. The iPOD is now THE high-end MP3 player because it had the market to itself. All the people who would have bought the Zune two years ago (Apple haters like me) have already given in to the iPOD. I resisted until May.
It's clear Microsoft has no idea what make the iPod so successful. If they did, it would be called the zUne.
Quick check in iTunes:
6080 songs from the CD collection, including
132 iTMS DRM'd songs and videos
That's a bit over 2% of the total music I'd have to transcode (via CD burning) if I went to another music player. Not even worth factoring into a decision.
This sort of ratio is common to everyone I know who buys from the iTMS (actually, I'm above average for this group). The vast majority of the music out there comes from CDs, and that's the way we like it.
But hey! Facts shouldn't stop DRM jerking your knee about. Go for it! Apple lock-in! Oooh! Scary! Bad!
There is the remote/fm tuner add-on. You get a little remote to pause/play, tinker with volume, etc. It comes with some a new set of 1st gen headphones with a shorter cord (makes sense with the remote). A radio option shows up in your menu when it's connected where you can set your presets and such. My headphones wires were getting loose from all the abuse and needed replacing so I grabbed this. So I've got the FM for the gym and a remote for easy access while snowboarding. I tried it out today for my first day on the hill and it did well enough as a remote. Down side is it's $50 which is steep but really, who cares about $50 these days :)
Just sayin the nano and video ipods do have FM. It's just sold as an add-on.
Stopped by Target today to pick up a new iron (the previous one had shat wax (!) all over some pants I was ironing) and saw the Zune display. Now I've heard it was a rebadged Toshiba. I don't know much about Toshiba MP3 players save that I've never seen one in the wild. Now I know why. The physical interface, such as it is, is the same me-too cheap D-pad we've all seen on the Nomad et al. but this one's round, so it looks like a scroll wheel, except, heh, it doesn't scroll. Footprint the same as an iPod, but it's about as thick as yo momma's purse, and the same brown color too! The menu does a glitzy SNES-era pixelly thing when you choose options, presumably to make up for the lack of feedback by the, heh, missing scroll wheel. (Sensing a trend here?) It's hard as hell to choose a song; they're all multi-line and of course, no precision scrolling, because...
It's definitely more glitzy than the iPod, or pretty much anything save the Archos, in that very obvious Microsoft "bright blue XP theme" way. So... I guess if you're the type with a leopard print cell phone cover and non-DOT-legal "blue" headlamps on your riced-out CRX, then, yeah! Go the hell for it! As someone who drives 500 miles a week in the city, there is no way I'm going to use this in my car. It's not half as usable as the iPod.
Wrists killing you? Not in 2 weeks. Learn Dvorak.
I wonder how long it will take before the AROS developers gets a lawsuit for trademark infringement. The GUI toolkit they are using is also called zune.
Allthough the zune in AROS has been in existance for quite a few years now, maybe AROS should sue MS instead?
/ The Arrow
"How lovely you are. So lovely in my straightjacket..." - Nny
http://www.free-media.org/index.php?/archives/15-1 984-Reloaded.html
No, it's abuse of monopoly if Apple told the car manufacturers that they will use the iPod interface and only the iPod interface, otherwise they can't use the iPod interface at all.
If company A has a monopoly on something and colludes with or threatens company B with dire consequences should they not do what they say, that is anticompetitive - the are not competing with competitors on the strength of the quality of their product. If company B decides to use company A's product (even to the exclusion of others) then that's their call.
MS was crucified (line on the left, one cross each...) because:
In contrast to other operating system vendors, Microsoft both refused to license its operating system without a browser and imposed restrictions -- at first contractual and later technical -- on OEMs' and end users' ability to remove its browser from its operating system. As its internal contemporaneous documents and licensing practices reveal, Microsoft decided to bind Internet Explorer to Windows in order to prevent Navigator from weakening the applications barrier to entry, rather than for any pro-competitive purpose.
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm
MS used it's dominance in one area (OS) as leverage to threaten OEMs about another area (browsers). Being a monopoly isn't against the law. Abusing the power that goes with it is.
When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
This is true. I had seen survey results that showed that "coolness" was like fifth place in the list of reasons that people bought an iPod. But marketing is still important. The only marketing I have seen for direct competitors (i.e. non-phones) was one billboard for a Creative Zen. That's it. Otherwise, the most that most people that knew that there were competitors was at the store.
3 91.htm9 1/chart19.gif
Survey story & chart:
http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/11/emw305
http://www.emediawire.com/prfiles/2005/11/01/3053
Has anyone got anything useful running on one of these yet? The screen is quite nice.
Microsoft gave OEMs benefits to not include browsers not named Internet Explorer. If that's not anticompetitive tactics, what is?
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
Instead of sales building, the black Zune is now down to #31 and the brown Zune #97 on Amazon's most popular electronic items list. There are nine versions of iPods in positions 1 to 30. I wonder if there will be any Zune in the top 100 within a few days. At one time the black Zune was in position 8 according to an earlier posting.
Robert Scoble - ScobleShow
What's the resolution on the screen?
Matt Jubelirer - Microsoft
It's 320/240.
Robert Scoble - ScobleShow
I believe higher than that?
Matt Jubelirer - Microsoft
Got to double check on the exact spec for you I will get back to you on that but you do get crystal clear video quality on the full screen...
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
Or rather, it will not be allowed to. Microsoft will drop millions of dollars into this product just like it did with Xbox. Releasing a product is now part of the R&D stage. They have no intention of making a profit off Zune generation one. Microsoft's new strategy is:
Release piece of shit copy of product. Learn from that experience. Release new, refined piece of shit. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
Eventually they'll have a solid product, just as Xbox 360+Live is a solid product. Whether they can ever have a blockbuster product - well, I don't think they can. This kind of strategy can only follow a blockbuster product that another company created.
I hated the iTunes interface when I signed up for it. I was on a Windows box and the thing looked like a damn Mac app. I don't remember the exact details, but getting a list of songs I wanted it to play did not match my intuition, as it had when I had used Winamp (at least I think it was Winamp). The only reason I "chose" the iTunes music store was because at the time, they were pretty much the only choice for $1 a song.
This was several years ago. I have since gone back to Linux. And guess what? iTunes does not work on Linux. From what I've heard, the iPod was innovative and has a great design, but please don't try to transfer that karma to iTunes.
Why not? What is it about the iTunes interface that you don't like?
How is this a troll? I must have hit a nerve somewhere.