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How Jobs Played Hardball In iPhone Birth
Carl Bialik from WSJ writes "Apple bucked the rules of the cellphone industry when creating the iPhone by wresting control away from normally powerful wireless carriers, the Wall Street Journal reports. From the article: 'Only three executives at the carrier, which is now the wireless unit of AT&T Inc., got to see the iPhone before it was announced. Cingular agreed to leave its brand off the body of the phone. Upsetting some Cingular insiders, it also abandoned its usual insistence that phone makers carry its software for Web surfing, ringtones and other services... Mr. Jobs once referred to telecom operators as "orifices" that other companies, including phone makers, must go through to reach consumers. While meeting with Cingular and other wireless operators he often reminded them of his view, dismissing them as commodities and telling them that they would never understand the Web and entertainment industry the way Apple did, a person familiar with the talks says.'"
I'm really for anything that helps wrestle proprietary control settings away from the major carriers.
"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson
Incorrect. The consumers are the orifices in the telco / phone maker / customer relationship. Everyone gets to screw them.
Anyway, let's hope the iPhone enjoys more success than the last Apple/Cingular deal mentioned in the article:
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
Remember than no iphones have been sold yet. The analysis needs to wait until some sales figures are available.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
...if Apple meant it, the phones would be 100% unbranded and unlocked, they'd take any GSM provider's card, and APPLE would provide simple, regional, downloadable settings (for carrier-based web proxies, etc.)
Apple doesn't have to sell them through Cingular (AT&T) or anyone else.
Bucking the system...my shiny metal ass.
I guess the tone would indicate we are supposed to demonize Jobs for wanting control of his product rather than letting the Telecoms dictate what he could build. Point he was talking about a tiny market share so none of them had a gun to their heads. Cingular decided to play ball but they could have said no. Microsoft could have just as easily come in and said we're throwing ten billion at this the first year and expect in three years to have 10% to 25% of the market share. Play ball or we'll run you out of business. Asking for conditions to make a deal is called negoiations. Neither party was required to say yes and the final deal was mutually benificial. Where's the harm?
At least we Apple users can still be smug and remind everyone that Apple invented playing 'hardball'!
What, throwing chairs isn't hardball?
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
IIRC the messages at launch placed cingular as THE monopoly carrier for these phones, with no other options.
You have to sign multiyear contracts to boot.
I think they maintain not only control, but an iron grip on these phones.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Love the telco's or hate them, Jobs only "got away" with his demands purely because he has a rock solid "PR" product which will certainly sell by the litre. Regardless if the product is a stinker it will sell well, because its Apple.
If anybody has half a brain they will stay away from this product for at least 1 revision - like most products, especially Apple.
And yes I own lots of expensive Apple gear.
It seems the Americans are getting screwed still on the contract, so Jobs didn't get all he wanted. The product launches back in Australia next year but it seems Telstra don't want a bar of it, will be interesting to see if it sells without a contract, I'd say it changes are high it won't.
I'm a Mac user, and I'll say it straight up: Apple only wants to stop the carriers from screwing customers with the iPhone so that Apple can screw customers harder with it instead. So it doesn't have AT&T ringtone, messaging, and pr0n software. You're locked in with Apple software instead. They've already confirmed that you can't install your own apps. The phones are network locked, too, so I don't see how they're stopping the carriers from screwing customers, anyway.
A carrier doesn't screw you too badly. I have a Hutch3 branded Nokia 6280. It was a lot cheaper than the unbranded version. It's network locked and has branded firmware and has a Hutch3 logo on the case. However, it can be unlocked and have the firmware replaced. Hutch3 will do this for me for free one year after I bought the phone. Also, I can install any Java MIDP application I write or download.
The iPhone will be a joke until:
Obviously, we'll all have to wait until it's released to see what it's like. Apple are the masters of the UI, and most phones/smartphones I've had have really lousy UI. 3G or not 3G, I'd like to have a phone that doesn't suck to use. At this point, I'd toss out all the current crap and go back to my Nokia 6160 - it did what I needed and stayed out of the way. While I like getting email, Blackberry and Windows have a long way to go before they get away from sucking. I hope Apple's UI is a step forward. I could give a crap which 'G' my phone uses, so long as I like using my phone.
.if Apple meant it, the phones would be 100% unbranded and unlocked, they'd take any GSM provider's card....
And then Apple would not be able to provide features like visual voice mail which require changes to the carrier network.
What Apple gets by partnering is concessions in network development they would never get if they stood along against all other phone companies. That is the value that Apple brings to the table, making complex things easier and stuff like network improvements to handle random access voice mail are part and parcel of that. If the iPhone were just like any other MVNO phone, it would lose a lot of potential for true innovation in phone development.
What will be really interesting to see is how the open Linux phones proceed, or if they run into roadblocks.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The iPhone is a joke until it runs Windows Vista Mobile Premium, with Aero enabled holographic projector with 3D holo-conferencing. I'll hold out for the dellPhone.
Obviously, we'll all have to wait until it's released to see what it's like. Apple are the masters of the UI, and most phones/smartphones I've had have really lousy UI.
I'll second that motion. The most common features I need are gazillion menus down in my Motorola phone. People keep talking about how iphone "lacks features", but feature O.D. is a Microsoft trait, not an Apple one. If you want quantities of features, regardless of how easy it is to use them, then Apple products are probably not for you.
Table-ized A.I.
Steve Jobs really is a badass! I played hardball once in high school; broke my leg, three ribs, and four fingers. I hope the engineers weren't too severly hurt...
The view was horrible and the smell was even worse; Julie severely regretted becoming a proctologist.
Have you ever heard of something called a 'user interface'? Apple knows how to build a good one, and Motorola, LG, Nokia, and the rest of them do not.
That is what will sell the iPhone. For every geek who looks at the iPhone and says "Bah! My free-as-in-speech, open-source, ugly orange phone with the stupid name (OpenMoko) will do all that and more! The iPhone is crap!", there will be 100 normal users who try it out and say "Goddamn, this phone is so much easier to use than the POS I have now. I'm buying one."
I am by no means technically illiterate - I'm a computer science major at MIT. But I have long since lost my patience for fighting with badly-designed, badly-engineered, badly-implemented consumer electronics. I will be buying an iPhone when it comes out, because like all of Apple's recent products, it will 'Just Work'.
It will be a hybrid iPod/cell phone/PDA with no sacrifices in functionality, compared to carrying around three separate devices. As Jobs mentioned in his keynote, the price is still cheaper than buying a smartphone and iPod Nano separately.
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A slick front end on top of an OS model which was outmoded by the mid-eighties.
One could say the same about Unix derivatives. New == Good is a fallacy.
P.S. I think that a fair explanation of Steve Jobs's frantically hysterical assaults on the market is competition with Bill the Gates. He wants to be a bigger liar, and better marketer. It's like the clash of the titans. They make the last four US presidents look like honest men.
Better to have 2 aholes who compete against each other than one ahole with a monopoly. They will each tend to catch each other's lies.
Table-ized A.I.
Yeah I agree, I'm on my third motorola flip-top and while each new version does get slimmer and smaller, it seems there's always compromises. E.g., on my newest one, its too easy for the quick buttons on the side to change the ringer type while the phone is in my pocket. Not to mention the fact that T-mobile puts their "download ringtones" links first in the sounds menu and there's no way to delete them... It annoys me because the phone has bluetooth so I just upload my own mp3s; I'm not buy any of their crap.
If anybody can fix the UI disaster, its Apple. Sure it won't be perfect, but my guess is that it will be an improvement (if you want to pay for it). This whole situation reminds me of the way Apple dealt with the music companies, and we all know the DRM is a mixed bag, but it sure beats the competition for most people.
Strangely enough, I'm a bit proponent of the "do one thing and do it well philosophy", but after seeing the keynote, I am impressed. A good UI makes the extra features useful, a bad one makes them annoying.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
-- I'm old enough to have lived through six different meanings of the word "hacker."
I'd prefer the person on the other end not know that I'm taking a dump while talking to them!
It's been stated pretty clearly: implementing some of the things Apple wanted is a lot of work for the carrier. I think the "visual voice mail" is one of the bigger ones. Someone has to pay that freight, and a good way to do that is to offer a time-limited lock-in to the carrier, allowing them to recoup their investment and make a profit as well. Verizon turned Apple down, so we get Cingular.
I'd been wondering exactly what Apple got out of the deal. The only previous item I'd heard was the visual voicemail. And I don't consider the marketing and retail channel to be big gains for Apple against the exclusivity limitation they're giving AT&T. But monthly revenue sharing could make sense for Apple. I would guess that Jobs made it clear they could go operator-less if they didn't get a good deal.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
I am looking forward to trying the iPhone. In particular I'm looking formward to being free of the god-awful software that comes with most phones.
Just this weekend I decided to check an ebay auction on my samsung phone. I noticed that Sprint offers a "ebay premium" program for download. Guess what? It's FIVE dollars a month. WHAT? I already pay for internet access on my phone, why should I pay another dime to get a better view of my ebay account? If the phones came with capable browsers then this nickel and diming wouldn't be possible because the phone would have desktop-similar browsing capability. I think the iPhone is going to go a long way to helping consumers.
And now the countdown starts on the two other phones cited in the WSJ article. It didn't fly under my radar the "boy have we patented it" line at the expo - and for those who want the recast, on the (free) download at iTunes of the keynote - at 1:30 (remaining) comes the clarifier of over 200 patents filed on the iPhone.
Looking at the slightest cause for a lawsuit - "trade dress" it seems the other manufacturers are playing with fire already.
For a fan of corporate porn (me), it's going to be fun watching the legal fallout from the clones (remember all the imac clones that emachine tried to sell within a year - that's absolutely nothing compared to the design theft that happens in cellphones all the time). The LG and the Samsung weren't mentioned to have touch-screen but - boy - the LG is really looking to open it's legal doors in "creating consumer confusion from trade dress" bigtime.
Anyone want to place bets on when the first lawsuits from Apple start? I'm guessing August by the latest.
Well, there is now a DMCA exemption to unlock your cell phone to connect to another carrier (assuming you have an open account with said carrier). Not having an iPhone myself (I like cell phones that let me talk to people, and not much else), I don't know the answer to this question: How long before another carrier reverse engineers whatever service is being provided, so that you can buy an iPhone and subscribe to another carrier's service?
Write me a check Apple!
Engineering is the art of compromise.
We see the same thing here. Instead of just treating data like voice, and charging a fix amount for fixed amount of data, the phone companies want to further monitized data, not in any way that beneficial to the customer, but merely to generate additional revenue, often at the expense of the customer. It is like MS, forcing everyone to MSN just for the privilege of using a browser that is already paid for through the acquisition of the OS.
But Apple is really doing no different. Safari and iTunes is a brand that Apple needs to build, and if the mobile standard is Safari, then that will be a great feather in the Apple hat, and a great defeat for MS. The thing is, that this is healthy competition. Just like the AT&T breakup let us have more than one phone in our house, and brought long distance rate to criminally low levels, something like this, along with carry along phone numbers, could allow to buy phones, and then choose a carrier. Wow.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Apple decided to not take cash directly from Cingular, hence the lack of a Cingular logo on the phone. The phone is locked, so Apple has don't nothing for consumer. Yes, you should be able to get an iPhone out of contract and that means a cheaper monthly for the consumer (in theory). Is Apple the good guy? Not really.
- I voted for Nintendo and against Bush
There's nothing funny about it. Jobs was simply pointing out a hole in their business plan. Cingular was flexing its ring muscle and Jobs rectified the situation. Although I think he was being too anal about removing the logo, market penetration is key. He wants this product to succeed not only in the US, but in Europe and across the entire Pacific rim.
Apple selling your dissent back to you at twice the price! Film at 11!
How nice your comment will look in 2-3 years when iPhone would prove very popular, maybe it will be just as funny as "no bluetoth, less space then a Nomad... lame"
"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -- Prof. Dumbledore
like all of Apple's recent products, it will 'Just Work'.
You mean like the ROKR? Apple fans are always quick to disavow that one as though Apple had never touched it.
It will be a hybrid iPod/cell phone/PDA with no sacrifices in functionality, compared to carrying around three separate devices.
Wouldn't a lack of 3G be a sacrifice in functionality?
As Jobs mentioned in his keynote, the price is still cheaper than buying a smartphone and iPod Nano separately.
Well, you can buy a Pocket PC phone for $2-300 and drop in an SD card to hold music and movies, so I'm not sure what a Nano would bring to the party.
saying they don't think the iPhone is that great and probably won't sell that well. I think this is perhaps the Telstra exec being a little miffed at being treated differently and taking the fight public. I'll bet someone like Vodafone or Three will be the exclusive carrier in Australia. They can see the value of products like the iphone in getting more subscribers away from Telstra.
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
"You also seem to have left out Windows Mobile in your list of companies that you seem to think don't know how to make a user interface. People can hate Windows concepts and MS, sure, but MS spends a lot of money with real people to ensure their crap is easy to use."
That's why Vista's UI is so great, right? I've seen it on several machines now, and it's a freaking mess.
"It is people like you that forget the rest of us have been using Windows Mobile and even Motorola 'user interfaces' on our phones for SEVERAL years, playing our music, using our bluetooth, playing our movies, and also accessing the internet at near DSL speeds, with the latter being something the iPhone can't even do."
Did you completely miss my point? I realize that these things are all technically possible on Windows Mobile and Motorola devices - the point is that the interfaces are lousy. I guess it's a matter of opinion - but I know a lot of people share mine.
"If Apple is the God of user interfaces, then why do they continue to copy good ideas and try to promote them as their own, you know like the iPod?"
Again, you're missing the point. What did the iPod copy, other than the idea of an MP3 player? The iPod was a success because of the user interface, and solid design that felt good in your hand. People like to whine about the marketing and 'cool' factor, but the iPod was popular long before the ads, and long before it became a fashion accessory, because of how good the UI was.
"
If Apple is the God of user interfaces and that is what you see as them doing well, why don't they actually create a new user interface paradigm, yet the new concepts for UI come from the OSS world and even MS. Remember this the next time you drag and drop text in a document, MS did it first."
So, that's the best Microsoft UI innovation you could think of?
And you don't think that the iPhone represents a new user-interface paradigm, with the multi-touch screen and all?
"Take the Menu bar, and how many users just don't get the 'multi-application' usage concept because the flipping bar confuses them, so they close and flip between applications."
Ever heard of Fitt's Law? There's a very good reason for putting the menu bar at the top of the screen - it makes it much easier to 'hit' the menus with your mouse, because the mouse stops at the top of the screen. Compare this to windows, where you have to hit a target of about 20 pixels or so to select a menu. I suppose it might not be completely intuitive, but in the long term it is a much better solution.
"If you are a CS major at MIT, then my faith in the next generation has been destroyed."
I'm crushed.
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It just isn't happening with Cingular or T-Mobile, which could explain Apple's problem. If they want to release a 3G phone in the US, it'd only make sense to release a CDMA phone, but then they wouldn't be able to sell it in Europe. This way, they can sell it to a bunch of Americans out of the gate who don't know any better, and then sell it in Europe once they have 3G support ready.
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
"You phone companies don't know nuthin' about proper phones, not like Apple does."
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
Believe it or not, there are many de-facto standards in the mobile phone industry. One of the most famous is the voice mail icon.
Your whole rant makes it apparent you don't understand what visual voice mail is. It's not iBiff. It's, well, voicemail that is visual - as in, you get to see a list of all voice mails you have currently waiting, and then you can choose to listen to any one you like, in any order.
Now of course this is not a new thing to phones, IP phones in particualr. But the cell phone industry? They support nothing like it today. To actually be able to randomly access voice mail is, in 2006, apparently a startling concept to cell phone network providers.
Making an unlocked phone doesn't mean being forced to limit yourself to the documented features of GSM. You can implement whatever the hell you want, and let the carriers decide what they're going to implement.
And the carriers can laugh at you, and the feature is useless. Apple cannot realistically build a phone, and then release it "hoping" that all (or any) of the ideas they have get implemented. They have to make a polished device first, so that people wll actually want to buy one. If they did not the cell industry would seek to kill it fearing Apple would gain too much power. Far easier to play to the greed of a single carrier and get them to do what is needed.
The Linux phone is basically taking the path you advocate. But I really do not think it would ever be in a position to dictate new network features the way Apple currently is by basically taking hold of a carrier and shaking some sense into a very stagnant industry who really doesn't understand device development. I say that as a user of various cell phones for years, which are uniformly horrible in day to day use. The Linux phone would eventually be better but it would always be limited in potential by what the carriers allowed. I am thinking the Linux phone will eventually be able to make use of the same features that are being added for the iPhone.
Also Apple is not just supporting visual voice mail, but also push email from Yahoo and perhaps other things we have not heard of yet. Allowing Apple to help design user-oriented improvements to the network is something that eventually will improve all phones, not just the iPhone.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You need to start using some better phones. I've had a lot of mobile phones (as we call them in the UK) but a landmark was the Ericsson T68 that I bought back in 2002. The user interface was awesome and remains to this day on the SonyEricsson phones I've been buying ever since. The UI honestly couldn't be any easier to use.
I think the OP was trying to make was that this sort of phone won't be popular in Europe or the East because, although it looks nice, it's expensive and lacking features. It's also been mentioned that we won't be getting it for a long time - so it'll be even more out of date by the time it arrives.
On the 12 month contract I've got with Vodafone at the moment, I was presented with a wide range of free, or very nearly free, handsets that all have wonderful UIs, all had 3G (this is important to me - I do a lot of mobile data), all had good cameras (taking pictures can be fun), all had bluetooth 2.0 (a novelty I'm told in the US) and many had WiFi.
The competition's hot here - when I renew my contract people are keen that I don't go elsewhere - I often pay less than the advertised price for handsets, I often get a bunch of free accessories and additions to my monthly call/text/data quotas, there's often a load of half price stuff too. And the UIs are always great.
It's cheap, it's good; there's a healthy competition in the European market place, my phone is very easy to use, even if I've drunk far too much. Why would I want to spend a lot of money, and be tied into a 2 year contract, on an iPhone? For a good UI? Errm... The world looks much better without Steve Job's cock in your mouth.
Jobs himself said, shortly after the iPhone launch, that you can buy applications for the iPhone - they will just be tightly controlled by Apple, probably similar to the games for the iPod today (and there is speculation games on the iPod were actually a was to test delivery of software via iTunes which is how the iPhone is updated as well).
Frankly I also think users will be able to move Dashcode creations onto the iPhone, I would be very surprised if that was not the case. For me that eliminates a lot of the need for custom applications.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I think Jobs figured he could best manipulate the loosened moving ground under the feet of Cingular. With AT&T swallowing them, it seems like managment might have had a "nothing to lose" frame of mind when they agreed to Jobs' terms. I'm sure the tone amongst the execs at Cingular and AT&T was not too unlike an episode of "Survivor" where alliances and rivalries can make or break your chance to stay when it comes time to let people go.
Say what you want about Jobs—but he's no dummy. I'm pretty sure he was eyeballing the players and muttering to himself like that kicker in Waterboy:
"Who's it gonna be? Who's it gonna be? Who's it gonna be? [Chuckling] 0h, yeah. There's my bitch."
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
Ken Kutaragi: Our product is so good we want the whole industry to bend over backwards, kiss our ass, then take a good old anal reaming and for our customers to pay $600 for our product.
Slashdot: Arrogant asshole.
Steve Jobs: Our product is so good we want the whole industry to bend over backwards, kiss our ass, then take a good old anal reaming and for our customers to pay $600 for our product.
Slashdot: OMG!!1! you are such a massive visionary. please come here and ream me right now.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Jobs did not say you could not install any software. Jobs said that he thought you'd be able to buy software for the iPhone but it would be tightly controlled, probably to a very select few third parties.
However, look at what software people usually buy. The smart phone owners I know are mostly buying software to replace the software that comes with the phone! Apple has a good track record of actually bundling software you would want to use instead of replace.
Add on top of that constant web availability and I'm not sure custom apps are as mandatory a feature as they once were.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
woh, woh, woh....
I know I haven't looked that closely at the iPhone, but it really doesn't have a user-replaceable battery????? Holy crap. Unless Apple devised some super-ultimate doesn't die quickly Li-Ion battery, I call waste of time and money. First, who here has actually held on to a cell phone for over 2 years, and secondly, who hasn't had a cell phone battery die and them and need to be replaced. If Apple seriously wants me to spend upwards of $500-600 on a cell phone, I better have some insane guarantee that the damn thing will last me at least 2 years, considering that is the contract's length. Otherwise, Apple or AT&T better have some amazing return policy for all the phones that only last an hour 18 month's in to the contract.
I am not a Mac hater, quite the contrary to be exact. I am a videographer and photographer that uses his Mac G5 for hours on end. Great product for what I need and there is no comparison out there.
Regardless if the product is a stinker it will sell well, because its Apple.
The Cube?
Case closed, on your argument.
People buy Apple products when they work well. Over the past few years Apple has done a good job at producing products that work well for people. It's amazng how sales follow when you build something that works.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Making an unlocked phone doesn't mean being forced to limit yourself to the documented features of GSM. You can implement whatever the hell you want, and let the carriers decide what they're going to implement.
The general way of making a deal with another partner is "you do this for me, and I'll do that for you". Apple got a percentage of the monthly profits, complete say over the look-and-feel of the phone, goodies like the 'visual voicemail' you deride, the most-widespread cellular operator, and for that, they had to tie the phone to the network and give 5 years exclusivity for that model.
I also think you're missing the point of the visual voicemail - you can't just implement it on the *phone*... you need carrier-support to do this, or you'd have to download every message and store locally - yuk.
And the idea of "configuring a hack" isn't something that sits well with Apple DNA - the phone will "just work". That's pretty much one of the selling points for the vast majority of people who don't know how to apply a "hack" to a phone, and don't want to know, for that matter.
In any event, from your comments, it looks as though an iPhone isn't for you. So don't buy one - I just don't get why you're so upset over it. You're obviously not the target market... I do wonder if every time an advert comes on TV for something you don't want, you go on such an invective-fuelled rant though. Must be fun around your house!
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
Edge was a way better choice than 3G for the iPhone - in the US.
Here most people would be using the more data intensive features around WiFi connections which will be way faster than 3G.
For the rest of the time, you need a decent level of connectivity that will work in as many places as possible. 3G is still not deployed in a number of major metropolitan areas of the US. I can't get 3G where I live, but I can get Edge, and there are a lot of people who can say that.
Apple also said already they would consider different needs for other markets. So for europe, 3G support makes far more sense and will probably replace Edge.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
People can hate Windows concepts and MS, sure, but MS spends a lot of money with real people to ensure their crap is easy to use. Please don't try and defend the Windows Mobile interface as being "easy to use". Sure it works and can do some powerful things...but it's not very intuitive, it's cluttered, and a pain to use for the average user.
Spam is the essence of evil.
_Mediocre_ as compared to what? Show some stats and pricing. You clod, what's your story? Apple crapped out a black box overnight and picked a price from a hat? Why don't you look at the damned features and compare to similar smart phones in the same price range.
Look at a N73 MSRP $699.
Or a N80, MSRP $799
Now look back at the iPhone expected MSRP $499 & $599
MEDIOCRE?
I'm sure they're all fine phones, but FFS show some respect, the iPhone as it is now is a pretty good damned shot at the competition.
Is it true that the iPhone will only have 1 button?
To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
Well, a 'good' user interface is very subjective, and even OSX has many carry over design flaws that were good in the 80s but are quite outdated today, yet Apple still sells the concepts as 'easy' or the 'best'. Take the Menu bar, and how many users just don't get the 'multi-application' usage concept because the flipping bar confuses them, so they close and flip between applications.
.03% of the whole phone market, but we are so uber cool because we know how to pair devices that no-one else matters and therefore do not exist"
Translation -" I know nothing about UI design, and are pleased to advertised the level of my ignorance."
You also seem to have left out Windows Mobile in your list of companies that you seem to think don't know how to make a user interface. People can hate Windows concepts and MS, sure, but MS spends a lot of money with real people to ensure their crap is easy to use.
Translaton - " I have no imaginaton that an interface could actually be better than Windows crammed into a tiny screen. "It was good enough for granpa, it's good enough for me!""
Oh, and Windows Mobile has been around for quite a while now, and with 6.0 pushes the envelope of mobile usage and connectivity far beyond anything Apple has promised for the iPhone.
Translation - "6.0 offers a lot of cool advanced features, which people have already been using for some time via third party add-ons because it takes so long for Microsoft to design a good UI. I will acknowledge Visual Voicemail as a cool feature when Microsoft supports it in Windows Mobile 9.0"
It is people like you that forget the rest of us have been using Windows Mobile and even Motorola 'user interfaces' on our phones for SEVERAL years, playing our music, using our bluetooth, playing our movies, and also accessing the internet at near DSL speeds, with the latter being something the iPhone can't even do.
Translation - "The "Rest of Us" is
If Apple is the God of user interfaces, then why do they continue to copy good ideas and try to promote them as their own, you know like the iPod?
Translation - "I did not realize the iPhone had a totally different interface than the iPhone, and to me multi-touch is what I do at home in bed with my Windows Mobile device".
If Apple is the God of user interfaces and that is what you see as them doing well, why don't they actually create a new user interface paradigm, yet the new concepts for UI come from the OSS world and even MS. Remember this the next time you drag and drop text in a document, MS did it first.
Translation - "I am annoyed that Apple not only copies UI elements but improves on them, so I will prtend they are UI pirates and bring nothing to the table."
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You mean like the ROKR? Apple fans are always quick to disavow that one as though Apple had never touched it.
Oh, Apple touched it - and found out what happens when you let tradition cell-phone design take place. Not even Apple can come up with a usable device through the process. This of course dispells the notion that people buy things just because APple is involved with them - people buy Apple devices when the work well, not when they suck.
Notice they were able to learn from thier mistake, which is what the article is really about.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Do tell us, how many?
And how long before the law suits start?
3...2...1...
qz
Who makes unlocked unbranded versions of nearly all of their phones? Well, Motorola, Samsung, Nokia, Siemens, Sony Ericsson, Panasonic, HTC and Palm...off the top of my head. But, they're only like 95% of the market, so, who knows.
Sure. Some of their phones are only available branded. If you want a Blackjack or a Dash -- you're going to have to get a Cingular branded or TMobile branded phone. If you want an unbranded Samsung i607, or 320n instead of a "Blackjack" then get one. Same goes for any HTC Excalibur that someone rebadged and sold carrier specific.
www.myworldphone.com -- if you want one of a hundred resellers of unbranded unlocked phones.
Contrary to popular opinion, "Good User interface" does not mean "Identical to what Windows users are accustomed to." Dissociating windows and applications makes as much sense today as it did in the '80s. Mimicking the MS Windows paradigm is not a path to superior user experience.TheNetAvenger is making a ridiculous assertion. Cancel or Allow?
If Apple is the God of user interfaces and that is what you see as them doing well, why don't they actually create a new user interface paradigm, yet the new concepts for UI come from the OSS world and even MS. Remember this the next time you drag and drop text in a document, MS did it first.Yup. If they did it first....I guess that would mean NeXT did it zeroth. Sure.
The US free market: two halves of a government-granted duopoly are free to set the market price.
Sorry. I just did a search for cell and/or phone(s) in the DMCA. No mention. Please quote your sources.
qz
It would have 12 buttons, and make phone calls... and would be waterproof, have a huge freakin battery, and survive a fall from a low flying airplane. Why are no companies making the kind of cell phone I want? No MP3 player, no alarm clock, no text messaging, but broadcast a signal strong enough to stop your grandpa's pace maker, and heavy enough to be used as a meelee weapon in a bar fight!
I want the civilian version of this:
http://home.att.net/~wd0giv/Phones/ta838.jpg
Then the high speed access or HDSPA if they have it will only work with iTunes...
That is how it seems to be happening in Japan. Ultra high speed but all you want plans only work if you access through iMode (pay services) and high speed access is marketed as the way to get music and video. (well in addition to digital terrestrial broadcast, though from what I've seen it's not so impressive content-wise).
If you want to access an arbitrary Internet site you are going to the poorhouse. I want to get an HDSPA card for a new mac laptop but it might just be too expensive.
A nice choice is the little PHS Willcom WinCE phone with real pushbuttons. Not as big a keyboard as other models in the line and the screen is tiny, but it has a GUI and apparently you can add arbitrary apps. PHS network is cheaper too.
Call me when the iPhone comes with an all you can eat IP connectivity plan at hdspa speeds and embed a limited range airport in it (say within 10 feet) and give me real pushbuttons, and I'm there!
The iphone is $499 and $599 with a 2 year plan that likely needs a high cost data plan. The other phones do not need a plan at the price.
Welcome to Linux.
qa
Not optimal, but hardly painful. Using today's codecs, I could get several minutes of VM (which is far more than you're likely to get) into under 100kb. Even on an EDGE network, that data transfer could be as little as four seconds. Less, when you factor in that unless it's due to non-connectivity (ie if you go silent in a meeting, etc), it's going to flow in as received, not as a batch.
100kb? So? My last two phones came factory (not provider) bundled with 512mb of memory.
I pay $19.95 for unlimited data. And I use multiple megabytes a day.
My partner and I pay $20 for unlimited text messaging (for each of us).
You did an amazing job of missing his point. The comment had zero to do with "being able to hit the menu bar", it had to do with the one menu bar changing "context" based on the application. It's actually quite an odd concept to grasp... you're working away on an app, you change focus, you see the app window come to fore, so there's a change there - that's noticeable. Nothing has really changed (especially with commonality of many application's menus, made even worse by 'cohesive UI guidelines') on the menu, so you don't immediately notice that the menu has changed.
Hint: most phones these days come with at least 512mb of memory. Sure, not iPod sized, but expandable to 2GB+. Sony has the W810, a pretty accomplished "walkman" phone. Nokia has the N91, with 4GB of drive space, a neat interface, and a 3G phone. And so on, and so on and so on. That's not to mention the global PDA market.
Another hint: most people know how to connect their phone to their PC. It's called mini USB. Know how I know they know how to do this? It's the same method as an iPod.
By Steve's own estimations of "1 million phones sold in a year" (which is a stretch, I think), the phone that'll have .03% of the phone market is the iPhone, not the rest of us who *gasp* have phones that can do everything the iPhone can (yeah yeah visual voicemail *yawn*), and in many cases, have had for quite a while (N91 came out a year ago, W810 more than).
then watch the Steve Jobs keynote at MacWorld. Or more specifically, fast forward to 1:34:35 and watch Stan Sigman, the CEO of Cingular Wireless. Two things struck me. The first was his admission that they entered into the contract with Apple without ever seeing the device. I mean, damn, that's a sales job. And the second was my general expression that he just seemed like such a fish out of water at MacWorld. The way he consulted his note cards, his stilted delivery, his tilt towards marketing over technology, and so forth. Mr. Sigman is an old-time phone company wonk, and it showed.
...and replacing them with a different proprietor? That's, at best, just switching masters, not freedom.
Digital Citizen
I think you read that John Gruber post a few too many times ;)
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
Comparing the unlocked Nokia equipment to the heavily operator subsidised and rebated iPhone! Oh, so funny! What do you think Cingular gave in order for that exclusivity deal? Hint: a little more than "visual voice mail". Let's hunt for some subsidised Nokia prices, shall we: Hey look, Cingular sells the E62. Price: $349. Do you pay $349? Fuck me! You don't! You pay $99!
Face it, you screwed up here. Thinking that there is not going to be some visible or invisible carrier rebate, as there is on every single other phone on the market because it's the all-holy iPhone is laughable is bad enough. Using that to try to deride other phones as being more expensive than the iPhone when you deliberately quote the unlocked, unbranded MSRP is even worse.
Exactly half of people make less than the median income (by definition) and since intelligence is on a bell curve, exactly half of people have average intelligence or less.
The cake is a pie
I understood his point just fine - my point was the usability (as opposed to intuitiveness) benefits of placing the menubar at the top of the screen make up for the slight chance of confusing new users.
OS X makes his point a little less valid as well, since every application's name appears as the first item in the menubar.
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Yeah, because it's strictly inconceivable that he might say such a thing, knowing that it might impress the Appleheads into saying "wow! i gotta have one!" (even more so), meaning more customers for Stan. No! He wouldn't do such a thing! Hint: MacWorld, and most other corporate presentations, are heavily scripted, not the place where a candid "admission" is made by a CEO that his publicly-listed company entered into a multi-billion contract without being very sure of every last detail of the transaction.
Another hint: most people know how to connect their phone to their PC. It's called mini USB. Know how I know they know how to do this? It's the same method as an iPod.
Yes, and how do you transfer files to it? Either you drag files manually into weirdly laid-out folders, or you have to use some kind of flaky, slow, ugly application the manufacturer had some moron throw together, with bitmapped graphics all over the place.
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Let me say this again - it doesn't matter that your phones could technically do everything the iPhone can. The point is that the iPhone will make it simple, straightforward and easy.
It's like you're saying that all cars are the same because they can all get you to your destination, will keep you hot or cold, and will let you play the radio. Never mind how fast they accelerate, what the fuel mileage is, how well the AC works, how good the speaker system is, how reliable it is. A Kia Rio and a BMW 335i _technically_ have many of the same features - why would anyone buy the BMW?
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Here's one such article.
Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses
Huh? Since when have we had an operating system with that type of functionality in that size of a package? The iPhone is NOT a cell phone. It is an operating system that includes cellular networks as a source for its network data requirements. The iPhone will host the first OS that places a brilliant interface on just another input/output stream called voice data. It's radical because Apple actually seems to be placing hardware innovation first. Your right, this tech has been around for years. Why is it that no tech company until now has bothered to try and do it right? They just do it well enough to get you to fork over your hard earned cash. Because of this we've spent the last few years with no innovation whatsoever. When companies place profit first and become monopolistic, they don't have to make anything better because they have already latched their parasitic teeth into your wallet. Now that Apple is in the game, they will HAVE to make their products better and cheaper, or Apple will put them out of business. Intel sat on it's ass until AMD started whipping them, now that they've seen the writing on the wall, we are back to getting some of the best processors ever out of them. The same thing will now happen to the cell phone business. If they don't get off their collective butts, Apple will run off with their cash cow. Just like the record companies, the cell networks are relics. It's about time somebody started taking advantage of, and making a profit out of, these outdated modes of business. Good for Apple. Good for us. Long live the new flesh.
So Apple is embracing and extending voice mail and it's ok? Cuz when Microsoft does it y'all piss your panties in frustration.
The difference is that Microsoft takes an exsting working standard, and adds a proprietary microsoft bit to it to make it slightly different and slightly incompatible. It's usually not a great advance over what exists already, it's just enough to provide lockin.
Whereas what Apple is doing is overhauling voice mail. There's nothing there to extend really. And when they are done the carrier will have an ability implemented that OTHER phones will be able to make use of, rather the exact opposite of lockin.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Are there any other features that require Cingular on the iPhone? I hate to think we're justifying the decision to lock the iPhone on a single feature most people could care less about.
i would bet that there are - I'm not sure but the Yahoo push-mail may be one of them as well. I am also thinking if there are not others already there will be as Apple comes up with other ideas to make phone use easier.
Lockin was a sad nessecity to allow innovation to proceed at a reasonable pace in the cell phone carrier market we have today.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That sounds like a gigantic pain in the ass to me. Maybe if I were receiving dozens of voicemails per day it would be useful, but it would take me longer to text than it would to just call and listen through the handful I have. I think it is safe to say that looking at a list of them and clicking is far simpler and more intuitive than texting back and forth.
And I don't know what GPRS web service you are using, but I haven't found it particularly tolerable in terms of speed.
These are better than nothing, but I don't think that they are comparable to the demo of the iPhone's voicemail system
Yes phones today come with lots of expansion capability - that only the most technical users make use of.
They also can sync via USB or even bluetooth to computers. Yet people hardly sync anything over this connection. The more advanced among us actually make use of address books and contact lists.
But wouldn't it be great if many more people could make use of a lot of storage and computer syncing through an interface they use today? iTunes phone syncing means that a lot more people will be able to access features that really only the most technically inclined people use today.
Now here's the real aspect of the phone that will propel popularity, yet is hardly mentioned - the dock. In a world rife with iPod friendly accessories, no one feature of the iPhone is quite as immediatleey useful as the standard iPod dock connector it sports. It will be able to charge in the car with chargers people already own. If that isn't a first for amobile phone, I don't know what is.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I will admit that was a source of inspiration for the whole reply.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
By this logic:
- When are cellphone companies going to come up with something "new." Walkie talkies were invented in the 30's. Cellphones are just glorified walkie talkies with a longer range. What's up with that?
- And what's all the marketing hype over phones that show video? TV technology has been around since the 40's. You'd think they could think of something "new" instead of copying a 60 year old idea.
- And what about Intel and AMD and those transistor thingies. They were invented in the 40's. When are they going to actually "invent" something?
Point being. There are very few radically new ideas almost everything is a refinement or combining of things that already exist.
right now their best 'new' thing is an OS based on 1989 Next concepts.
Lets see.
- Steve Jobs started Apple (With the very important technical contributions of Steve Wozniak)
- Steve Jobs gets kicked out of Apple, goes on to Start Next Computer.
- Apple buys OpenStep (all that remains of Next) right around the time Steve Jobs returns to Apple.
Seems more like the continuation of a vision rather than "stealing" the ideas from Next.
Face it. Jobs really is an innovator. He was the key to both companies. If you live to be 500 you'll never have anywhere near the impact on the world that Jobs has.
And the UI paradigm from the 1989 Next still outclasses OSX.
Heh.
Oh, and Windows Mobile has been around for quite a while now, and with 6.0 pushes the envelope of mobile usage and connectivity far beyond anything Apple has promised for the iPhone. As someone who's developed on a product that used Windows Mobile (and still owns a few units...) I can't help but laugh at this. Windows Mobile is anything BUT easy to use. "Pushing the envelope of mobile usage and connectivity", yes, perhaps the envelope of poor design and badly implemented functionality...
Most of europe had gone to an all digital network in the early 90s - I believe you can still find areas of the US that still only have analog service. Nationwide 3G is still a pipe dream.
The US services do seem considerably cheaper. We pay about US $90/mo for two lines, 1000 "any-network" minutes, free calls to other T-Mo subscribers, unlimited edge data, unlimited hotspot access and subsidizied phones. Each of our phone numbers is also a local number which is free for any local landline to call.
When i last lived in the UK the per-minute costs were stifiling (particularly to other cell networks) and data was pretty expensive too.
Or you're a Verizon customer, you pay them 25 cents to put it on a web page, which you then screenscrape.
Maybe just me, but I'm failing to see what's so weirdly laid-out about this...
Apple could have made the iPhone into the perfect unlocked, carrier-independent phone. They could have created a platform on which people can install OS X "light" software. They could have provided carrier-dependent software like "visual voice mail" as small, add-on applications (preinstalled if you buy the phone from your carrier).
Instead, it looks like you won't be able to buy an unlocked iPhone at all, or even use it with different carriers. And you can't install anything on it. Given its price, that's really an outrage.
I don't want Jobs controlling what my phone does or how it does it anymore than Cingular.
Ever heard of Fitt's Law? There's a very good reason for putting the menu bar at the top of the screen - it makes it much easier to 'hit' the menus with your mouse, because the mouse stops at the top of the screen. Compare this to windows, where you have to hit a target of about 20 pixels or so to select a menu. I suppose it might not be completely intuitive, but in the long term it is a much better solution. ...
That's why Vista's UI is so great, right? I've seen it on several machines now, and it's a freaking mess.
So if hitting the menu on an appliation is too hard and you need the edge of the screen to find it, then maybe you should try Vista, it is virtually menu free, a paradigm even easier than the dated menu concepts still in use on OSX. Or even really blow your mind, try Office 2007, again no menu and a nice large ribbon to find (that can auto-hide if it gets in your way). (And being Menu-free or using a Ribbon are neither MS nor Apple innovations.)
I can't believe you actually had the guts to defend the Apple menu bar that is carried over from 'UI Innovations' of 1983 in an argument about how Apple's UI is always better and 'more' innovative. Either it is guts or you just don't get it.
Did you completely miss my point? I realize that these things are all technically possible on Windows Mobile and Motorola devices - the point is that the interfaces are lousy. I guess it's a matter of opinion - but I know a lot of people share mine
I actually didn't. There are lot of people that actually do like the UIs on some of these devices and is also a reason for their success, even the Motoral Razr has nice easy interface with voice activated dialing that is a great selling point for users.
So Windows Mobile 6.0 is a lousy interface? That is YOUR opinion, and considering it hasn't even been released, I kind of doubt you have used it.
Even PalmOS has some 'innovative' ideas that made it a success and a success on Phones years ago.
Oh, and there is the fact people can develop applications for not only the dated PalmOS, but Windows Mobile and even JAVA or Brew applications for MOST phones, again something the iPhone won't be able to do.
Considering I have been using 3G and other high speed cellular techology from my phone for OVER 3 years now, it is frankly SCARY that Apple thinks its users will want to try to browse the web, download songs or do anything on their phone at barely better than dial up speeds.
So when you are using your shiny iPhone, and notice the guy in the corner of Starbucks watching TV or streaming a movie on their cellphone, don't be jealous. Just remind yourself that Apple is so innovative, they know better than the other companies and you can remind yourself you didn't want TV or Movies because Apple told you so.
So, that's the best Microsoft UI innovation you could think of?
Ya, that is only one I could think of, what a great counter-argument.
Oh wait there is also the concept of select and modify, so next time you highlight some text and then change the Font/Color/Size/etc, think of MS, again they did it first.
Do you think it is just possible that I might be using rather simplistic examples of 'innovative' concepts in UI usage that is littered THROUGHOUT any modern GUI based OS?
Geesh...
Please don't try and defend the Windows Mobile interface as being "easy to use". Sure it works and can do some powerful things...but it's not very intuitive, it's cluttered, and a pain to use for the average user.
A. That is your opinion
B. Since we haven't seen Apple's ideas, they could be far worse.
C. There is also the new Windows Mobile 6.0 and I doubt you have used it.
However, I am not here to tell everyone how great Windows Mobile is.
I would just as easily defend the UI on a Motorola Razr or V710 or V815, they are all easy to use, can watch movies, play MP3s, and have voice recognition so you NEVER EVEN NEED TO TOUCH the keypad of the phone. Oh, and you can also stream Movies and Live TV on them too, something again iPhone won't be able to do.
And THESE are all examples of fairly OLD PHONEs and old UIs in terms of when they were released.
Innovation is more than a patented 'multi-touch' display. Apple is good at some things but UI innovation has NOT been their bag for a LONG LONG time.
Translation -" I know nothing about UI design, and are pleased to advertised the level of my ignorance."
Odd, when Netscape wanted to hire me in 1999 to be a lead on their UI team, they seemed to think my knowledge was pretty good.
Although I do admit I'm glad I didn't move to take the job.
This is one of the times that your assumptions about people are about as far off as you could get. Go look up a couple of projects called X11 and Motif, you will find my name in the documentation.
Contrary to popular opinion, "Good User interface" does not mean "Identical to what Windows users are accustomed to." Dissociating windows and applications makes as much sense today as it did in the '80s. Mimicking the MS Windows paradigm is not a path to superior user experience.
Wow, you nailed that out of the park. That is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. (gag)
This is about Apple, I never said MS or Windows were the holy grail of UI, nor did I imply that they were even great.
So do you assume when someone talks about an OS paradigm that doesn't have a locked single menu bar at the top, they COULD ONLY be talking about Windows?
I think you need to look around at other OSes, you just might be surprised that most DO NOT use the OLD SINGLE MENU metaphor, and many are even getting away from Menus all together.
As someone who's developed on a product that used Windows Mobile (and still owns a few units...) I can't help but laugh at this. Windows Mobile is anything BUT easy to use. "Pushing the envelope of mobile usage and connectivity", yes, perhaps the envelope of poor design and badly implemented functionality...
As for pushing the envelope, I was specifically talking abot Windows Mobile 6.0, and if you have ALREADY developed a product for it or even used it, I will be a bit shocked, because that means you work at MS since it is NOT Released yet.
Besides Windows Mobile is just one example of the point I was trying to make, and also note that you 'did' develop an application on Windows Mobile (if you really did), since this is not something anyone will be 'allowed' to on the iPhone as it might destroy all the cell networks in the world accroding to Jobs. Geesh.
Yes, and how do you transfer files to it? Either you drag files manually into weirdly laid-out folders, or you have to use some kind of flaky, slow, ugly application the manufacturer had some moron throw together, with bitmapped graphics all over the place.
Well on my phone, lets see how hard... I find the song or movie on my computer click on it and then select "Send to Bluetooth Device". I then have to hit the accept button on my phone.
Wow, that is wicked hard, let me see if there is another way.
Oh ya, I can yank the transflash card, I put it in my computer, the window for it pops up, and I just drag my songs and movies to the card.
Ya, the last one is much easier and faster too.
Of course this is an OLD phone from 2004, I'm sure it is probably easier on 'modern' phones. Geesh...
The word of the day for your post is 'daft', you win a prize.
... this is a word almost non existant to much /. readers here ; give a better word which has more functionality please ;)
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
Translation - "The "Rest of Us" is .03% of the whole phone market, but we are so uber cool because we know how to pair devices that no-one else matters and therefore do not exist"
.03% because she can put music on her phone.
So dragging a file to the device, the transflash card, or hitting send to bluetooth device is that complicated for the rest of the market?
I will be happy to inform my non-techie aunt that she is a super tech genius in the top
Of course she only as a 2GB card, so she isn't quite as hip or a tech genius as my mom with her 8gb transflash device on her phone.
iPhone nerds act like this is the first freaking device to offer storage or music and other COMBINED features with a freaking phone. There IS a reason Windows Media PLAYS on Windows Mobile phones, people actually use it. There is a reason my work cell is a Windows Mobile, so I can use Remote desktop and actually operate my computer at my office from my car if I need to. These are NOT new concepts, in fact, freaking OLD ONES, and it scares me that people like you don't realize this.
PS, This is not an 'ad' for Windows Mobile, my aunt and Mom have Motorola phones and are quite happy with the UI, voice dialing, and playing music on them, my second cell phone is also a Motorola Razr.
The iPhone is NOT a cell phone. It is an operating system that includes cellular networks as a source for its network data requirements. The iPhone will host the first OS that places a brilliant interface on just another input/output stream called voice data. It's radical because Apple actually seems to be placing hardware innovation first.
Ok, you do realize that that iPhone is NOT a high speed device, and DOES NOT support high speed network access like 3G phones from other companies have for SEVERAL years in the US alone?
If it is truly the 'network' device you describe, would you care explaining why it will barely do better than dial-up speeds? Especially when other phones have been streaming movies, are used to VPN into their office computers, and even getting Live TV and XM radio on them for several years now.
(And this isn't even including the cell phones that do VoIP over a real high-speed network and bypass cell charges because they pay a flat data rate price for their near DSL speeds. People are using freaking things like Skype on cell phones, you do know this right?)
My freaking Kyocera phone from 2002 had faster data rates than the iPhone, and yet you are arguing the iPhone is a divine network device?
Are you kidding?
PS, Paragraphs are your friend...
Apple's "iPhone" is really an old-style content delivery device. The new frontier is social networking. Check out Helio. Helio integrates Myspace, GPS, and mapping. BuddyBeacon shows where your friends are, on Yahoo maps. Apple has nothing like that.
Helio is a 3G device, too. Music, videos, fast web browsing, and more. Plus stereo Bluetooth - no more dweebish white wires.
Well, I don't know. If I were gonna lie, I'd make up a better one than that.
rather than "stealing" the ideas from Next
I NEVER said they were stolen, they were as far as I know, ALWAYS Job's ideas. I give him full credit for Apple and Next.
The point I was making is that even some of the 'good' UI concepts and development concepts from Next are STILL not even used in OSX, and Jobs or his peeps had these ideas back in 1989.
And many of the things that people think are cool ideas in OSX are from the 1989 Next as well, not something I would call modern or new or the cutting edge.
I think the reason Mac users find them cool is they never had a pre-emptive multi-tasking OS before that could even handle RAM properly, with a good graphics subsystem until OSX, so sure a lot of OSX is really cool and new 'to them'.
However, these concepts are VERY old to the rest of the computer users of the world.
"Ever heard of Fitt's Law? There's a very good reason for putting the menu bar at the top of the screen - it makes it much easier to 'hit' the menus with your mouse, because the mouse stops at the top of the screen."
I actually like the MacOS menubar, but it does have it's ahare of problems:
- As screen-resolutions increase, the distance between the app-window and the menubar increases
- Related to the point above: multi-monitor setups. I'm working on a window on the secondary monitor. I need to do something with the menu's, what do I do? I need to move the cursor to the top of the primary monitor in order to access the menu.
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
You are comparing prices of handsets without contracts (the nokias) with iPhone (including 2 yr. contract). I can get Nokia N70 for ~$100 with one year contract.
It would have 12 buttons, and make phone calls... and would be waterproof, have a huge freakin battery, and survive a fall from a low flying airplane. Why are no companies making the kind of cell phone I want?
... 17 Buttons. (you'll hardly find any less) ... Extremly spraywater resistant. ... Check. ... Check.
Siemens M35i
12 Buttons?
Waterproof?
Survives fall from low flying airplane?
Huge freakin' battery?
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Have you actually used any recent Nokias or SE phones? From your comments, I somehow doubt it.
The current range of S40 Nokia handsets have one of the easiest user interfaces on the planet, its no surprise that the range is the best selling around. Any idiot can figure out how to use it.
I'll admit that S60 isn't quite as intuitive, but its still not exactly rocket science to work around. I'm using a Nokia N73, and the UI has hardly changed since the 7650 made its appearance, not necessarily a bad thing, but there are still some config elements in strange places.
However, the king of UI design on mobiles has to be SE. For the last few years their user interface has been slick, consistent, incredibly easy to use, and generally about the most intuitive UI around.
I think you'll find that a lot of people are just happy with a phone that they can call people on, can send text messages on, and has a decent battery life - the last one is an absolute killer for the iPhone, no-one in their right mind would say that a day or twos battery life is usable. Heck, my N73 can just about stretch to 3 days at a push, I do miss my old SE W550, as that was an easy 5-7 days out of a charge, and that was with an hours music, a few text messages/calls per day.
The iPhone prices are NOT subsidised, the 499/599 prices are apparently without any rebates, which does seem a little bizarre, and its not something that I can see happening over in the UK/Europe.
the phone itself will work on any network, but apple have apparently insulted cingular into making a few changes to their network to allow stunt features like visual voicemail to work. no biggie: how many voicemails do you tend to have to deal with at a time?
Tony Montana (heavy Cuban accent): This country first you gotta get the money, then you get the power and when you got the power, then you get the women.
Set your phasers on "funky"!
Actually, I have a Nokia N73 that does my ipod/cell phone/PDA functionality all fine and dandy. Plus:
It also runs Tom Tom so quadruples as a GPS unit.
It also handles 3G.
It also syncs nicely with outlook via bluetooth.
Its also got a 3MP camera.
+ it takes a horde of 3rd party symbian apps (some great, some not so good...)
Point being: OK the UI ain't as flash, but I'm used to it now and it doesn't slow me down too much. Sure touch screen would be nice but I'm not taking a cute interface over real functionality.
Since carrying it around I've never looked back, sure it ain't as great an mp3 player as a dedicated player, the camera pics are distinctly iffy compared to a real camera (but blows chunks out of most camera phones mind you, and perfectly adequate for happy snaps). This is the target Apple should be aiming for. There are lots of phones out there that are quite decent MP3 players when u throw in a memory card.
Of course, I'm missing the point as this will not matter one iota to the average non tech user but what the hey, here's one geek whose not buying the hype.
Why he does not wear a shirt... ...... the man hates buttons!!!! :-)
RIM, with their Blackberries, were really the first ones to not allow carriers to screw up their firmware. It's really quite trivial as a normal user to do pretty much whatever you want with a Blackberry (provided you have a data plan).
I am _positive_ that Nextel ran a GSM network, as my phone from a previous employer had a sim in it. So, at the very minimum, Sprint (which, of course, owns Nextel now) runs a dual mode network.
That isn't unheard of: Cingular operates both networks, as well, due to their AT&T Acquisition. They are, however, phasing out the CDMA network.
Are you claiming that there will be no TV or movies on the iPhone? Or are you saying that streaming shows over a cell connection is better than loading up from the iTunes store?
Did you actually understand the gist of the article, how difficult it is to get through the "orifices" to get to the customers? The carriers are (except Cingular when it came to Jobs apparently) in total control of the delivery system, and can demand anything they want from phone manufacturers.
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. My point is that these assertions are total bullshit. I've been using unlocked phones on Cingular for many years, and I am using three different unlocked, fully programmable phones right now. Not only do they work on Cingular, they also work in other countries on other carriers with other SIM cards when I travel. And I can (and do) load many different applications on them. And when you buy a locked Cingular phone, you can easily have it unlocked.
I think Verizon and Sprint try to exercise more control, but it's not right to lump Cingular in there.
So, Jobs didn't free users from carrier control, he is trying to establish control over users, with a totally overpriced and feature-deprived phone.
Well golly gee willikers, don't buy one then!
I won't. And I'm trying to convince others not to buy the iPhone either, since I think Apple's behavior should be discouraged and punished by the market. Once they come out with an unlocked, programmable iPhone, then it's maybe worth looking at it again.
Which country is that in?
In the UK I couldn't get service nearly that cheap.
Granted it would be nice if the US would let you just buy airtime from the cheapest bidder, but the current packaging system works out well for me.
Also I consider the fact that I pay for incoming calls to be a HUGE bonus. In the UK you pretty much need a landline to take business calls, new customers are much less likely to make a call that costs them 10x what a local call would. In the US it's virtually impossible for someone to tell whether you gave them a cellphone or a landline.
I'm interested to know if you really can beat this package and annual spend
* 2 lines
* 700 shared peak any-network minutes per month
* unlimited minutes to subscribers on the same network
* unlimited nights/weekend minutes
* Nokia 3166
* T-Mobile Dash (Actually an HTC Excalibur, Feel free to substitute any Windows Smartphone with Built in Wifi & Bluetooth)
* Unlimited GPRS/Edge Data
* Unlimited Access to T-Mobile Hotspot Network (worth US$20/mo)
Total annaul spend of about $1180 (including the phones). We're also in the fortuitous situation where virtually every single family member and work collegue that we call on a regular basis is also a T-Mobile subscriber - as a result we regularly use 1000 free minutes in addition to maybe 500 of our plan mintutes.
I'm not saying you can't beat that in another country, but i'd be surprised if you could do siginificantly better
What Apple does is say "if you buy DRM content from iTunes, you can only play it on an iPod." What cell phone providers say is "You can only buy your phone from us, and we'll cripple it in any way we see fit." You are certainly free to put your own content in non-DRM formats on the iPod you bought, no matter store you buy it from. You might have a point if buying your iPod from Wal-Mart meant that you got an iPod with mp3 support removed but support for some Wal-Tunes proprietary format instead, but that's not the case, so you have no point.
- Disclaimer: Information in this post deemed reliable but not guaranteed.
There is a pretty good reason that network carriers lock down handsets. If they are absorbing fairly hefty subsidies on each piece of hardware sold then they need to have some reasonable certainty that they are going to see that money back. If that means locking their customers into using their services then of course they are going to do that.
It's not like you can't buy a non-subsidised, unlocked, SIM-free phone and just go to a carrier for a connection and do what you like with it. You pay your money and you take your choice.
I came from a windows and linux, solaris, X11, etc. background and I am trained to stop at a certain vertical position to select a menu item (unless of course I know the keyboard shortcuts - and on a Mac I certainly don't, yet.). I am still doing this on the Mac but now realize I don't have to. Cool.
Thanks!
Why, yes I have been touched by His noodly appendage. And I plan to sue.
Odd, when Netscape wanted to hire me in 1999 to be a lead on their UI team, they seemed to think my knowledge was pretty good.
Netscape and UI?
You're really not helping your case.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Agreed on that point.
What makes Apple products and UIs special is that they don't give the customer what they ask for... they give them what they want. Apple studies how people do things, and then develop interfaces that help the user accomplish tasks without getting in the way. Usually, this means coming up with a completely new paradigm (like the touch wheel on the iPod). Once you get over the initial shock of "hey, this isn't what I asked for" and accept the UI design on its own merits, you see that a lot of thought went into it, and it really is better. Other engineering companies have done similar things in the past (the Blender Foundation comes to mind), but they are rare in the industry.
People who dislike Apple interfaces are the same types of people who focus more on doing it their way than on doing it a better way. Apple may be called a lot of things, but "poor engineers" is most definitely not one of them.
For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
You basically just called the guy an idiot. Great argument!
damaged by dogma
Quite the ringing endorsement in these parts.
Just goes to show that some people can put up with anything. My current phone is a Sony Ericsson, and it has, bar none, the worst UI of any device I've ever had the displeasure of being subjected to. I was led to believe that it was one of the better phones when I bought it, so I shudder to think of what the rest of the market has to tolerate. If Sony Ericssons are an example of the better phone UIs, then Jobs is just the man to give the industry a beating with his clue stick.
Well, to my team anyways. (Sitting at Cingular's call centers now)
please... let me sleep... a little more... yay, no longer annonmyous coward.
Actually, LG interfaces are pretty good
Boy, if that isn't proof that YMMV--I was gonna post about how I thought the UI on my LG phone really sucked. What constitutes a good interface is largely in the eyes of the beholder and probably has as much to do with what you are used to as anything else.
This ain't rocket surgery.
The exemptions not specifically mentioned in the statute itself. Application for an exemption is made to the Librarian of Congress, who then makes a ruling as to whether or not the exemption should be granted. The cell phone exemption unlocking was granted in the most recent cycle:
http://www.copyright.gov/1201/
Yes, you can buy an unlocked phone, but you'd have to make sure it works with the carrier you'd want to use it on. This works best with GSM phones cause of the sim card (the carrier is not involved with you switching phones). However, non-gsm carriers have to be involved to activate your phone, and ones like Sprint won't turn on any phone that wasn't sold through them.
Also, unless you get an expensive pre-paid phone service, you are still stuck with a 2 year contract. And you don't get a discount on the contract if you bring your own phone, so you might as well get their "free" phone.
Are you claiming that there will be no TV or movies on the iPhone? Or are you saying that streaming shows over a cell connection is better than loading up from the iTunes store?
No they will be on the iPhone, but you will have to run home and load them from your computer unless you want to wait 4hrs to download a video clip.
High speed 3G streaming is VERY common on cell phones for the past 2-3 years. That is why when you buy a new Motorola Razr, you get an ad to sign up for TV services, that stream TV quality video to your phone in REALTIME.
So REALTIME streaming is the key here. Also if you buy a song on your phone, users with 3G phones get the song as fast a someone on DSL, they don't have to use a dial-up comperable speed connection to wait for it to download as you will on the iPhone. Think how long and painful downloading a new album from iTunes at dial-up speeds will be, when others can get the same album on their phone instantly from the music store.
Hope that clears it up.
I'm old enough to remember when just about everyone I know remembered dozens of phone numbers without thinking twice about it. It's just what you did back then. Sure you had a phone book with some numbers written down but if you threw together your friends, family, and work you were probably walking around with one to two dozen numbers in your head.
Sure it's nice that technology can help manage phone numbers. It's also nice to be able to remember them when the technology isn't there to do it for you. Standing at a pay phone and being unable to remember your own wifes cell phone number is kind of pitiful. I saw that happen to a coworker one day. I guess he was having a vague fear of his wife giving up on finding us and leaving us at the renaissance festival that day. I wasn't afraid though. I was just pissed.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
The plain fact is, most telecom carrier senior management couldn't find their "orifice" with both hands & a flashlight...
you really expect me to be able to express my opinion of what's so fucked up in this world in 120 characters or less?
Um, pretty much the only thing wrong with the Cube was the pricing. The success of the Mini demonstrates that rather nicely! There have been real Apple lemons.
I paid the going retail price for a Windows screen reader and got a free Unix computer!
Um, no you can NOT legally do this.
I challenge you inform all of us how this is legally done.
Um, pretty much the only thing wrong with the Cube was the pricing.
Didn't it also have case cracking problems? It was kind of an interesting idea but it just didn't seem to work out well, too much in-between a desktop and a non-desktop (like the Mac mini, which inetrestingly enough seems to have done very well).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley