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DoD Warez Leader Faces 10 Years in Jail
An anonymous reader writes "After spending nearly 3 years in a detention center fighting his extradition from Australia, a leader of notorious warez group 'DrinkorDie' was yesterday arraigned before a U.S. District Court to face charges of conspiracy to commit criminal copyright infringement and one count of actual criminal copyright infringement. If found guilty he faces 10 years in jail & a $500,000 fine."
If not, I doubt he'll do much time if any at all. He will probably end up getting probation and a large fine.
to face charges of conspiracy to commit criminal copyright infringement and one count of actual criminal copyright infringement. If found guilty he faces 10 years in jail & a $500,000 fine.
Meanwhile, a drunk driver who kills someone can get off scott free, with no jail time at all. Sweet.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Run everyone! They'll come for you no matter which country you're trying to live in... totally disregarding the sovereignty of your own countries laws.
Why is this person being tried in the US? He's a British citizen living in Australia, what does this have to do with the US?
I'm going to transform myself into a mighty hawk. Either that or I'll just go and work at Dixons, haven't decided yet.
Is a man's freedom itself really only of equivalent value to the artificially created rights in a creative work?
It's time that copyright infringement, and all intellectual property offences, returned to the purely civil arena. Pecuniary penalties are one thing: bankrupt them with fines and damages, by all means. To do so is consistent with the justifications for having intellectual property rights in the first place, which are either related to innovation, commerce, or artistic integrity depending on where you come from historically.
But no-one should be imprisoned for copying information.
Read Pynchon.
IMHO this kind of crimes shouldn't be punishable by imprisonment... but I guess indenture isn't such a hot alternative either. Anyway, 10 years for replicating electrical signals in a magnetic medium (nit pickers go away!)... basically he "stole" an idea, hot air. He *should* be punished for breaking the law, but wasn't there something against disproportionate punishment in western codes?
+Raider of the lost BBS
If he killed somebody he'd have been out already.
For many in the warez scene and beyond, this is how DoD will be remembered. Yes, I know this doesn't absolve them of their sins... well, I could envision someone making a reasonable argument about how the world isn't on a level playing field and these guys were helping to level things for those that couldn't afford to be recognized... but I digress. I just thought it was worth recognizing that there is something to be said about these characters that isn't completely negative.
"DrinkorDie" isn't exactly a mouthful. There's no need to abbreviate it with "DoD", which most Slashdotters will at first glance think means "Department of Defense".
I particularly enjoyed their starcraft release. Is there nothing we can do for this guy?
As I recall, the DoD bust happened almost 8 years ago. (I remember friends throwing harddrives in rivers..)
Other people from this bust, and from the relating 'fallout' busts have been nabbed, tried and sentances served by now.
As a cynic, you have to ask: Will he be tried in accordance to the precedents of the others [in a world minus DMCA and 'terroristm', MPAA fury etc], or is a large public justification required for what was by account a deep investment by the US government?
I'm not sympatheic, I'm just curious.
Yes except all the people from the groups that've been convicted and gone to prison go to Minimum Security federal prison. In short they can walk off the prison property (in other words, not ass pounding prison) if they like but they automatically get 5 years tacked on to their sentence. That part I know for sure. I'd assume they then get moved up to a stricter prison if they do do that, but that I part I'm only speculating on.
To hate the yank fucking judicial system
I hope one day that some sorta 24 scenario happens in Yankland and "Y'all" die (cept the cool Yanks of which , on the internet at least, are few and far between)
Then the world could get on with being a normal community
last I heard that was the mandatory minimum for patching VISTAS WPA
It seems obvious, then, that the jury trying this case should use one of the rarely-used options available to them: Jury nullification.
In this case, it seems that the jury would have to consider the case as a whole - not merely the facts presented by the prosecution, not merely the letter of the law. They must consider this man's motives, and the motives of the government that is bringing about this case. Is the government being driven by a corporation known for its bullying thuggishness and its lawsuit-happy executives? Is copyright law fundamentally wrong? I look forward to this jury's answer to these questions and I hope that it is the answer I expect from conscionable human beings.
Hard work pays off tomorrow, but procrastination pays off NOW!
but from TFA... his cohorts were sentenced to 46 and 33 months respectively ...... he has apparently spent 3yrs in a detention facility (36mos) and now could get up to 10yrs...(in theory).
one might think that it would have been better to just waive extradition and come fight his case here....3yrs ago...cause he'd be about out by now... even if he was convicted. =p (based on the other sentences)
I'm glad for my part that I don't like people enough to be a "robinhood" cause I'm not going to jail for a bunch of poor bastards that can't buy software...but can mysteriously afford shinny new PCs to run softwarzes on???
actually I am happy to see you, however that is in fact a banana in my pocket.
You believe that copyright fulfills it's premise, namely bettering society by encouraging creative works. I'm not going to voice my opinion on that, but if you do, then you would regard him as a destructive force, and harmful to society. Not much different than locking up a vandal. Or a thief. Not because the crime is overly similar (don't lecture me on it I already know), but because the end result _is_ the same. Economics are important. Remember that the only reason you have that nice computer to post from is because you were lucky enough to be born in a place with a great economy. Not so for your average Ethiopian, for instance.
Relax I just want some peanuts.
One of the functions of imprisonment is to be a deterrent for others. Since the crime is so hard to police, and convictions extremely rare in proportion to its occurrence, the punishment must be relatively harsh to outweigh the small chance of being caught. Not saying that it's just (the relative penalties for murder etc do seem absurdly light by comparison), but there _is_ an argument for imprisonment. Civil litigation and possible bankruptcy is not a significant deterrent for many.
Well I was trying to make a really lame office space joke, but I guess i mangled it that badly.
You mad
Not true. I remember reading about someone from another warez group (or maybe it was a hacker?) who got busted years ago (~4-5 years?) and he wrote about his ordeal at the isonews forums (if I recall correctly).
He started out in minimum security (and said that he helped the prison staff with their computer problems and advised them on how to get free warez !haha!). This was all good and ok. Then he was moved to a higher security prison because of some lame reason outside his control... I think it might have been a prison official with a score to settle (it wasn't a case of misbehavior).
I recall him writing about sharing a cell with someone locked up for drugs, and this cell mate was making his own alcohol in the cell from food scraps.
Maybe someone else can link to this story if you remember what I'm referring to.
Either way, with the amount of people in prison within the USA for all sorts of trivial matters, it is no wonder prisons are overcrowded. There is no guarantee he won't be put in a high security federal prison (especially seeing as this is a federal crime) for any number of reasons... such as prison overcrowding, an official being paid out by the MAFIAA, bad luck, whatever.
I'm sure the US is more than happy to extend the same courtesy to Italy, right?
Right?
Yah, I caught it. I was gonna toss a reference in as well but got too lazy. Honestly the only reason I replied was because I had a feeling a _lot_ of people don't realize just how lax the prison all these guys end up in are. Yes, you're restricted and spending months or years of your life somewhere you do not want to be and during that time not able to better your life in any real way. But with all the sentences all these guys got, the majority of them were not served in full and they had the ability to make outgoing calls, mail etc and a good deal more freedom than the traditional prison. It sucks to be in any prison, but if you had to be in any of them in the U.S. I'd say this type should rank as a top choice after house arrest..
Considering that these people are really no threat to society at all why waste their time and taxpayers money (in two countries in this case) locking them up in the first place? It really should be a civil matter - fines would still hurt even if you have no money and get it garnished out of future earnings.
Cute. You said I was wrong and then took it back all in one line. He started out where? .. Minimum security. Then he did what? .. Comitted another crime. Then was moved to higher security. I'm not bright, but if I'm in prison for comitting a crime, I like to believe I'm not gonna intentionally go and commit the same, or close the same crime that got me there. Especially if I'm in minimum security. All said and done, I promise you they served it in minimum security unless they did something dumb after being put in. You can safely assume I didn't just "hear" this from your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
What annoys me the most about this is that Australia has perfectly good laws under which to charge him. Why aren't they good enough?
"face charges of conspiracy to commit criminal copyright infringement"
... even if only for a few brief seconds. Has the thought-police arrived?!
ok first of all, since when is it a crime to think about doing something bad? Surely you've all thought at some point in your lives of killing at least one of your parents
"... and one count of actual criminal copyright infringement"
1 count? 1 count ?????? We're talking about the freggin leader of DoD. The warez group that's been around forever and ever since the early BBS days... They easily push Gigs & Gigs each day of 0-day warez...and the leader is being acused of 1 count of copyright infringment? That's *ucked up right there. I mean what's the strategy here... acuse him only of copying 1 software so he doesn't get credit (from his peer warez buddies)for the MILLIONS he has actually highly likely copied?
Anyway dude, all I can say dude, is thanks for all the warez, and hope they take it easy on you!
Billy Gates should be bailing you out, because you did millions of $ in free marketing on his behalf.
Adeptus
No trees were killed in the making of this post; however, many trillions of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
would just love to see a program that I wrote appear on warez sites. Means that people actually find it usefull. Besides, there is usually only a black market for an item that is popular in the first place.
Having my sofware released in the warez scene would be a compliment to me...
"Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
I don't know about you, but when manslaughter is 8 years, I have to question weather the cruel and unusual punishment clause holds any weight what soever.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
1. Find hacker give him a hefty fine and throw his ass in jail
2. $500.000 - 10 years worth of prison expenses
3. Profit
Issues of copyright in regard to software infringe on the issues of free speech. Yes, I said that. If someone were to decry the evils of BMW, or publish how to make them more gas efficient there would be no foul. When it comes to copyright, there seems to be no justice.
Even if a person is guilty of helping people download movies for free, they should not be punished for the following reasons:
1 - you cannot help someone break the law if the act is committed without your presence.
2 - Telling someone how to break the law is not an illegal act.
3 - Even if you send them the file sharing program, you did not commit the act.
4 - If you complain to the police that someone stole your paper bag of money containing $50,000 dollars that you left on some street corner, they will laugh at you and tell you that you are stupid.
5 - Theft of copyright is not possible, the premise is theft of 'presumed' revenues. There is no proof that any 'illegal' activity caused known damage to revenues in a quantitative way.
6 - Current legislation doesn't provide protection or compensation for all copyright holders, only the very few and very rich corporations with copyrights. The law is not being applied equally.
7 - The reasonable doubt that 'fair use' implies means that most copyright litigation is of questionable nature to start with.
8 - There is NO proof that pirated copyright materials deprive the artist of what they would have received anyway.
9 - The US entertainment industry is not the lawmaking body for ALL of the world. Resist now.
10 - Punishing hackers does not protect the children, nor does it stop terrorism.
11 - Copyright infringement is not theft, but copyright infringement for profit is. See number 5.
12 - Australia is not a US state, nor is any other sovereign country. Any country that gives up sovereignty to the US over copyrights is seriously sucking ass...
13 - you make up your own for this one
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I agree with you on the crime he has committed and the punishment he has recieved.
But explain to me how and why corporates like Sony, BMI, etc., who distributed Root Kits, compromised thousands of computers' security, and illegally hacked into my property (my computer is my property) can be let off with just a free coupon and a "sincere" apology?
Should their board, CEO, etc, not be jailed under hacking laws?
If you can explain to me why RIAA member companies can always get off, while the giga-uploader gets "bubba" in jail for SAME crimes, i can explain why slashdot thinks this way?
Until then, Ciao
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Conspiracy to commit X has been going on for ages now. The idea is that for the most part, people who talk about doing illegal things are going to do them. In reality, that's hardly true (are the writers of CSI guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, rape, robbery, kidnapping, home invasion.. et cetera? Of course not.) - but, it adds another nice little thing that a person can be charged with, giving more ammo to the prosecutor when working out the plea bargain.
:P And - you've guessed it, they've got a conspiracy charge to fall back on.
As for the one count, let's face it - copyright infringement in this case is a hard thing to prove. It actually makes more sense to go with a stupidly low number than a stupidly high number. People are getting sick of grannies being charged for fifty billion counts of whatever when they don't even have computers.
The charge actually convicted for doesn't matter so much as the fact that a conviction occurs. That's pretty much the thinking in our legal system today.
So where's the Paypal (or similar system) to have the warez community leechers give a little BACK to the few that have taken the fall after countless years of days and sleepless nights of self-less service?
I'd donate a few semi-anonymous dollars to the cause myself if there were such a link. I can see it raising more than the ~$1 Million that Wikipedia was able to raise... cuz, come on, this is DoD people! Just think of the message this would send back to government if millions were raised to help the DoD leader get better lawyers & be freed of this fucked up US system that puts "replicators" (not thieves) in jail longer than rapists & murderers.
I'd do it (setup the link) but I don't know how.
thanks
I mean if anyone steals the software from me, esp Warez kids I won't care really, because they extend my market share. If my company is public however, I would be stuck between rock and a hard place.Liability to investors for not attempting to get maximum profits is like that. They don't care who, what or at what cost the profit was earned. This sort of logic would hurt small companies, that make limited use small bits of software. But I guess it comes with territory. Instead of software, if you think its too dangerous, maybe you can become a lawyer, pharmacist or start company related to either of the two or many other possiblities. Software business is fantastic, because your distribution costs are zero, marketing is cheap and plentiful, unless you really want to build solid brand, then its gonna cost you some more, but by far it isn't as hard as it used to be.
People who get jail time for copying software, are just of sorts like galileo, were they really aren't stealing anything because they copy it not for actual profit but for hobby. Of course businesses won't care to cater to hobbyists that would need autocad to build their widget, so a shortcut can be taken.
However if you make money with the product it just isn't nice to not pay to the creator, you still want them to be around selling features that you want in your program right?
In bettween the two of the cases there is chasm of pleasureware, music players, games, image touch up software that comes free with 50$ printers etc. These people can't stop people who pirate that ware, so they have to have some value added stuff in the box. In general there is a balance though. Many people if they download pleasure warez , they would invest if its worth it. The first game I have purchased was half-life2 , it was so awesome, that not buying it was out of the question.Plus you go the box with hot CG girl on it. Notwithstanding forum admin asshats it was wonderful value.
I don't think anyone should be jailed as if they have robbed a bank for process of copying. And enven distributing. Real piracy happens in china and here as well, when people buy boxed software that was immaculately reproduced in some factory in guangdong, china.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Of course. We have a God given right to make a profit. Salaries are paid from profits. Think of all the little children who went hungry because this jackass disrupted our profits.
Now think of the drunken driver incident. The undertakers have to make a profit too. The drunken driver facilitated undertaker profits and that is an attenuating circumstance.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
A) He was in Australia, where what he did wasn't a crime at the time. How can you be tried for an act that isn't a crime in the country you reside?
B) Unless you suppose that US law should apply to the whole world. Exactly when did the US conquer all of Earth, pray tell?
Your argument is utterly off topic because it presumes to judge this situation based on US law when US law has no legitimate standing here at all. There was no reason to extradite this guy - he committed no crime. For what he did to be a crime it would have to be a violation of the law of the land he lived in. Is any of this, like, getting through to you???
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
The informative Karmawhore Wikipedia Link on DoD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DrinkOrDie
For actual links in the text below, go to Wikipedia above.
===================
DrinkOrDie (DoD) was an underground software cracking and warez trading network during the 1990s, shut down by a major raid in 2001.
DrinkOrDie was founded in 1993 in Moscow by a Russian with the handle "deviator" and a friend who went by the code name "CyberAngel." By 1995, the group was global. One of its earliest major accomplishments was the Internet release of Windows 95 two weeks before Microsoft released the official version. It is also known for its DoD DVD Speed Ripper released in 1999 shortly before DeCSS. The activity of the DoD group diminished after 1996, and they were not considered major players in the warez scene by 2000. The DrinkOrDie network is considered criminal for copyright infringement. As a rule, they made no financial profit from their activities.
The DoD network primarily consisted of university undergraduates, but was supported by software company employees, who would leak copies of software and other digital media. DoD also received such files indirectly, from other networks.
[edit] Member raids
In 2001 the group was busted in an FBI operation called Operation Buccaneer. At the time, DrinkOrDie had two leaders, one in the United States and another in Australia.
The Australian leader Hew Raymond Griffiths 40 (from Bateau Bay on the Central Coast), known by his screenname "Bandido", has been charged with one count of conspiracy to commit criminal copyright infringement and one count of criminal copyright infringement, and has been involved in legal action in Australia. As of March 2005, Griffiths has lost an appeal against extradition to the United States, to face charges under US copyright laws.
The American leader John Sankus Jr. of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, known by his screename "eriFlleH" (HellFire spelled backwards), was convicted and sentenced to 46 months. Sankus was also a member of the group HARM at the time of his arrest.
The National Hi-Tech Crime Unit in the UK also arrested eight members residing in Britain. Two of those arrested were charged and convicted for Conspiracy to Defraud, Alex Bell of Grays, Essex and Steven Dowd of Newton-le-Willows, Merseyside.
The raids were initiated after information was given to United States Customs by longtime member and co-leader James Cudney, known as Bcrea8tiv; Blah-. Once turned informant, Cudney spent 18 months working undercover for US Customs, logging conversations in chat rooms and channels visited on IRC. Through an arrangement with US Customs, Cudney was paid $104 an hour.
Also charged and convicted were:
Christopher Tresco age 23, of Boston, Massachusetts, who used the screename "bigrar", pled guilty May 28, 2002 to conspiracy to violate the criminal copyright laws, and was sentenced to 33 months of jail time. Tresco was also a member of Rise in Superior Couriering (RiSC). Tresco at the time of his arrest was the Systems Administrator for the MIT Economics department.
Barry Erickson age 35, of Eugene, Oregon, who used the screename "radsl", pled guilty on May 2, 2002 to one felony count charging conspiracy to violate the criminal copyright laws, and was sentenced to a term of 33 months, with three years of probation to follow. Erickson was a systems engineer at Symantec Corporation and provided prerelease software to DoD and RiSCiSO. He was also a founding member of Parents On 'Puterz (POPZ) a warez group that specialized in the release of children's learning software and games.
David Grimes age 25, of Arlington, Texas, who used the screename "chevelle", pled guilty on March 4, 2002 to one felony count charging conspiracy to violate the criminal copyright laws. Grimes was a computer engineer at Check Point Software. Grimes supplied Check Point firewall software to DrinkOrDie on at least two occasions, and he operated an FTP site
No trees were killed in the making of this post; however, many trillions of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
I agree. Prisons is an option that needs to be reserved for criminals who are a significant threat to society. I'm sick of seeing our hard earned tax money going to incarcerate non-violent offenders. Here in the US, in particular, we have gone absolutely overboard using prisons to deal with issues such as illicit drug use. There are other forms of punishment (community service, fines, restitution) and rehabilitation (counseling, education, medical treatment) that cost less, result in a productive punishment/rehabilitation, and can actually move to improve an individual's ability to function in society.
Anyone else find it funny that a criminal is being extradited from Australia? Didn't we send those Darn convicts there in the first place?
You're absolutely right. If somebody committed a crime which wasn't violent, why the heck should we put him in a prison? Give him a fine so big he will never even think about doing anything stupid. Never. The same about drug USERS. Every time they catch them they should give them a fine. If they cannot/want to pay put them in a prison and do a cold turkey. That should get them time to think.
"an experienced, industrious, ambitious, and often, quite often, picturesque liar" - Mark Twain
No, he's a geek. They'll simply slit his throat and piss on his cooling corpse.
I wonder how many millions of dollars have all ready been spent simply catching,detaining,transporting, legal fees and so on have all ready been spent to get this awful criminal to pay for his crime.
TruePunk | Games
I can't tell what level of fines you meant in your post so let me caution that dispossessing them of all future earnings would probably have a worse effect on society than just sending them to prison for ten years. There is a large difference between a hefty fine and a fine that one could never possibly pay. We need to be careful not to fall into the same old trap of cruel punishment that doesn't help reform the criminal.
Hahaha, "John Sankus and his techno-gang ..."
Watch out for the techno-gang! At least he didn't use the word 'thugs' to legitimize their ridiculous waste of money on sort-of slowing down the completely victimless crime the 'gang' was committing. Would anybody cheer if they arrested Coca-Cola shareholders for competing with Pepsi? Because this is essentially major tax money going to 'protect' the rights of very very big business, and nothing else.
Do you think the FBI would start a case on somebody pirating Forest Blog ? Because that's what they should be doing. If it's about rights and freedom's being protected, make a point of protecting the little guy for once. Just once. After all, they're the ones paying your salaries. You think Microsoft is paying 50% of it's income to taxes?
---
Fight piracy, link to this site
Ace
Copyright is now all about protecting the interests of Sony and other mega-corporations. It has ZERO to do with "the public interest" which is NOT served by 95-year copyright terms. Do the corporate-whores go to jail when they steal from us and the authors? No they do not.
Debts can be and are inherited.
This means by instituting pecuniary penalties you are punishing the defendants children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren for something they had no control over.
I'd rather go to prison than pass on a debt of 400 million dollars.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
No way. If he's with Wãrez he can get in with a tough Mexican East LA gang.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
He has been in detention for 3 years? If convicted would he get credit for the time he has already spent in an Australia detention center? If so, do the same rules apply for fines as they do here in the US? For those that don't know you get credit for ~50 per day while incarcerated. If so, then he has already earned over $50,000 towards his fine. If they do take in account the time served in Australia I wouldn't be surprised if sentenced, even the maximum amount, that he would not get off for time served.
If I were him I would discuss this with my lawyer and then in turn with the district attorney to negotiate a Plea bargain to enter a plea of nolo contendere, saving the court the time and expense of a lengthy trial, in return for a sentence of time served and a few years of unadjudicated probation.
I have seen people get less for worse. I don't see why the taxpayers should have to pay to hold someone like this when they obviously present no danger to society.
Nick Powers
Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
[Clippy] Do you mean $500,000? [/Clippy]. If you use "." that means you've stopped talking dollars and started talking cents. In this case, $500 instead of $500000 ($500,000)
I would rather suggest fines that will take all earnings they made from criminal activity + little extra to pay over, let's say 1 year, so they will have time to think about it. And if they don't want to pay those installments - just jail them.
And if somebody has a record of dodging those fines, they can also put some financial supervision on them. I mean only on serial offenders, because to put it on everybody would cost too much.
"an experienced, industrious, ambitious, and often, quite often, picturesque liar" - Mark Twain
So Aus is harbouring those wanted by the US for 3 years in a detainment camp... the US has David Hicks for 3 years in their detainment camp yet aren't giving him back...
DoD is part of the internet legacy, and DoD served a cause that is one of the large reasons why FSF and OSS have been able to find breathing space in the minds of many. I don't say that many of the actions were not illegal, but I do say that these actions have contributed to a better educated and most of all much more justified software/service ecosystem.
I think the fines and the punishments are seriously out of touch with what real crime is, where people get hurt or violated.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
Ah, but the freedom applies to EVERY prisoner, including the ones who are bigger than you. I don't know about you, but with the sort of people you might find in a prison, I'd much rather be locked away safely in my cell then out in harms way...
Commodore64_love: I don't comprehend people who're so frightened of death that they'll bankrupt themselves to stay alive
"What are you in for?"
"I raped my grandmother, bludgeoned her to death and ate the corpse. You?"
"I gave some software away."
I agree. Prisons is an option that needs to be reserved for criminals who are a significant threat to society
You know what I find sad about USA prisons? It is that the fact that you go to prison is that the government wants to Lock you up to punish you for your crime and let you rot and be raped and god knows what. I have just read a report (from a digg.com link no less) about the number of male to male rapes on USA prisons. Thinking about this case in particular (the DoD guy), today he is an intelligent man with computer knowledge and some pretty good understanding of technology (maybe even cracking). If the guy gets over the USA prison, he will be so fucked up (the USA system will destroy his life) that when he gets out (if he does it) he might be an addict, killer, and a bunch of other more nasty things.
That is quite sad. Just to put a bit of contrast, in my country, "prisons" are not called "prisons", and their main focus is not just on locking out "bad guys", a prision is usually called CERESO (social readaptation centre) or CEFERESO (social federal readaptation centre) which aim to re adapt the "bad guys" in order to make them *useful* to the society.
I think that is one of the reason why in USA the death penalty is liked, because for them, bad people must be punished, they do not like to see the root of the problem (if someone steals food from others it means he was HUNGRY... no the solution is not to lock the thief but to see WHY was he hungry, maybe more jobs?). But that is the *normal* thinking of the USA government, as they proceed similarly with Terrorism (instead of thinking WHY does the "terrorists" hate us?) they just want to bomb the fuck out of them. Blah!
Of course, you might argue that even my "happy happy" country with their "CERESOs"is not really happy... fuck no, we are very fucked up with corruption and all the same if not more violent crimes than USA (I am talking about your south neighbors), but hell, one of the things I have learnt is that the first step to fix ones problems is to acknowledge you have that problem and then to attack the ROOT. Not the symptoms.
I feel pity for this guy, as I felt pity for the British guy who hacked the CIA and was extradited to the USA. Heck, they should jail them *in* their country. And you people from the USA what the fuck, wake up!. It will be so cool to see in ten years, when half of the world is dead and the other is in USA "prisons" because of your stupid fears.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
When reading the headline the first time, I thought the Department of Defense had a warez server. (For playing Age of Empires during boring Pentagon meetings or something.)
The whole "jurisdiction is wherever your computer is" deal doesn't sit easy with me. Quite honestly, I don't know where most of the servers I use are physically located.
"The middle class are hurt by piracy FAR more than the wealthy."
bullshit
If we're making up shit here on slashdot, do we all get to play? Or are you the only one?
Australia goes one worse. We built privatised immigration centres that are run like prisons with one big difference - we threw the men and women in togther with the consequence of female prisoners still not being able to lock their doors after the first rape by a male prisoner - so the same women got raped by the same men.
In parts of Europe the "." is used to separate thousands and the "," is used as a decimal point.
As a software developer who has seen his hard work cracked, I say throw this son of a bitch in a cell and let him rot.
Scum like him deserve to be behind bars.
Sacrificed on the Altar of Commerce, to appease the great Gawhd Greed.
/Shakes head and rolls eyes as he walks away
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through my restraints.
Typically conspiracy to commit isn't "I thought about doing a crime and went to jail". There is a legal definition of conspiracy and I believe it involves 2-3 or more people. Beyond that, you can still 'talk' about committing a crime, but that is where the line starts to get fuzzy and the lawyers show up. Conspiracy to commit typically involves proving you and your cohorts went through at least some ammount of planning and were serious about pursuing the crime, not just talking it up.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
"Okay buddy, you can have the top bunk, whatever, just leave me alone! I only killed my grandma so clearly you're the meaner!"
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
From the US to the world: OBEY.
I'll never understand how "theft" of non-physical property with no proveable financial loss can be a crime.
Civil, sure. Crime? No.
I suspect the OakLEE is substantively correct in his assertions. The parent post suffer from an excess of rhetoric and a dearth of supporting evidence.
A problem is that the strange case of Manuel Noriega gives credibility to assertions of waltzing over, 'cause the US sure did go to Panama and just 'take' him. Recall that U.S. forces invaded Panama in Operation Just Cause, eventually securing Noriega's surrender after he had been holed up in the Vatican's diplomatic mission in Panama City. He was taken to the States where he was tried and convicted under federal charges of cocaine trafficking, racketeering, and money laundering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega
I think the Noriega case informs international perceptions of US behaviour WRT extradition - 'hell, they'll even invade your country if they really want you'.
That being said, it is a perception, not the case in any particular circumstance, including this one.
N.B. I am not a Noriega supporter. I understand that he was a dictatorial scumbag. I'm not trying to get in a flamefest over the rights and wrongs of Noriega's regime. I am simply using this case as an illustration of where a particular perception comes from.
[17] Leary, T., White, C., Wood, P. R., Bhabha, W. D., and Wirth, N. Lambda calculus considered harmful. In Proceedings
"Considering that these people are really no threat to society at all why waste their time and taxpayers money (in two countries in this case) locking them up in the first place?"
As a deterrent. You put it very well: prison will waste his time, and that's something that he has a finite amount of, no matter how much money he makes. And, it's a reality check for others in the scene: if you pirate enough software, you will. go. to. prison.
"It really should be a civil matter - fines would still hurt even if you have no money and get it garnished out of future earnings."
I can see your point from the POV of somebody who'd consider getting into the piracy scene. You put it well... with fines, the worse that can happen is that you'll declare bankruptcy and they'll garnish your wages. That's not so bad a punishment, so it would certainly be less risky to get into large-scale copyright infringement... I might even try it myself, if my set of moral values were a bit different. Reducing it to a civil matter might also have fringe benefits for all the people who benefit from the work of groups like DrinkOrDie... without the threat of prison scaring some people into getting into the business, there might be more warez faster for the rest of us.
But as you know, Title 17 is there to protect the rights of the people who write the software. The government wants to discourage, rather than encourage piracy, regardless of whatever fringe benefits there might be, or how sympathetic we are toward DrinkOrDie and other groups.
Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
"You're absolutely right. If somebody committed a crime which wasn't violent, why the heck should we put him in a prison? Give him a fine so big he will never even think about doing anything stupid. Never."
This would work out well for the defendant. If the fine were just $500K, all he'd need to do is put the word out, and so many people who appreciate DrinkOrDie's work would donate $5 or $10 via PayPal that the $500K fine would vanish within a couple of days, and he'd be back in business right quick.
I recall a few months ago that when one of the bigger torrent sites was shut down for a few days, they put a PayPal link on their site and got donations that averaged $1.6K per day... a lot more than the net profits of many software companies and even many indie record labels. Apparently fans of pirated stuff don't mind shelling out a little cash if it's for an important cause, like keeping the distribution points in business. If copyright infringement were just a civil matter, I'm sure the scene would take care of its own, so fines would not be much of a bother.
Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
I'm glad that the world is now safe from terrorists and we can go after 'criminals' such as this.
What a waste of resources.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Honestly, did you read the post at all? .. The point in it being a MINIMUM security prison is that for the most part, bigger than you or smaller than you, they are not violent or threatening people. They're the people the government has said need to serve time, but pose no real risk to anybody. The word prison or jail isn't a synonym for rape and getting beatin.
True, but then it would not be $, it would be something like 500.000 or £500.000. If it is going to be in US $, which makes sense for a US prison / crime thing, then it should use not just the $ sign, but the separator correctly too.
Go into a music store with a rifle. Shoot everybody in there. Grab all the music you can carry and hide it. After two years you can enjoy the albums after you have done your time. Oh and you have money from selling them on the black market. As they aren't copies, nobody realy gives a damn.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Clearly, you've never heard of Gough Whitlam. He was sacked from his position as democratically elected leader of the Australian govt. by the local representative of the British empire, at the request of various American military/security/goverment interests? Why? Because he wanted Australia to pull out of certain international treaties and become neutral vis-a-vis the cold war.
And you talk about 'sovereign rights'. Haha. Good troll.
my password really is 'stinkypants'
I have a brother-in-law who spent a couple of years in a prison for transporting drugs across state lines. They might as well have dispossessed him of all future earnings as almost nobody will hire people who spent time in prison. He's really had a hard time getting any earnings in the 7 or so years since being out. He had no problem getting work before that. I've heard that others have similar trouble. It seems that whether they just attach all future earnings or lock you up to "do time", you lose most of your earnings potential either way.
1. Find hacker give him a hefty fine and throw his ass in jail
2. $500.000 - 10 years worth of prison expenses
3. Profit
Quite literally if he is sent to one of the cheap-ass amateur _private_ prisons run for profit that have become the vogue. (All government is evil you know. Reagan said so.) The more prisoners, the more profit. Only a communist would argue against the logic of that business plan.
Considering we'll snatch people off the streets of Europe and jet them somewhere else to get tortured, I rather doubt the prosecution gives a care for the laws of Australia. If _they_ want to give him $50,000, that's their business.
do do?
Sorry, but this guy was part of a piracy group. big deal. Piracy can help artists/software developers. One example is to gain free publicity and spread knowledge of the artist across the world. The other is Microsoft building it's empire with the help of piracy. It's profits and market share are enough evidence. How many pictures do you and your family download off the internet everyday onto your computers as wallpapers and cached? The fact is you are a hypocrite and don't give a shit about piracy of lesser known forms and engage in it yourself. Let me ask you something. What is worse..your wife got raped and the perpetrator got 10 years, or someone cracked a software release of your company and spread it around? Exactly. Now shut the fuck up some and have some decency to respect what the man faces. He did not rape anyone, he did not take anyone's life. The software companies are incredibly successful and still in business.
..uh.. no. DrinkOrDie. Heh.
I'd like to remind you that we're dealing with a *pirate*, here. These are the same people who fire their weapons on our ships at sea, kill our children, rape our women, and in this particular case, they were forcing people to either "drink or die".
Remember, kids: There is no crime more serious than copyright infringement. When you infringe copyright, you are possibly stealing from some of the richest organisations in the world. By definition, nothing could be more immoral.
not long ago, when you could be sent to debtors prison
luckily, we recognize the folly of that today
and likewise, a century or two from now, they'll look at the idea of sending people to prison for copyright violation as equally barbaric as we look at debtor's prison today
take all of the arguments for debtor's prison, and you see they are not that different than the idea of jailing someone for copyright violation
so if we as a society can see the wisdom of rejecting the arguments for debtor's prison, why the f*** can't we see the same wisdom of for rejecting the gung ho attitude we have torwards copyright violation prosecution
change is slow and takes time, but on this issue, the glacial pace of change is infuriariting
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I think coders are finding it more challenging to make open source competition for expensive programs rather than crack their security systems.
Well, I would like to think that, but truthfully coding an application and cracking it are really two different skillsets.
£500.000 is five hundred pounds. Don't correct (what you believe to be) people's ignorance with an example you know nothing about.
Presumably he has some kind of marketable skills. Rather than a lump-sum fine or prison, why not cap his income ant minimum wage for the duration of the sentence. If he has a job, anything above minimum wage is deducted at source. If not, make him work community service eight hours a day and pay him minimum wage. This would cost a lot less than prison, and would benefit the community.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
... and they all moved away from me on the bench......
Three Squirrels
And if a person can pay, by whatever means, the damages the courts say he caused, then why shouldn't he be let off? Isn't that the point of damages? To compensate the plantiff for the damages he or she suffered?
[ home ]
So long and thanks for all the opportunities to learn 3D modeling and animation...
Thanks for letting me tool around in 3D Studio 4, then 3DSMAX 1 & 2, Lightwave, SoftImage 3.7 in my parent's basement while other highschoolers chased footballs and tail.
Now they're living hand to mouth and wallet to wife whereas I'm while away the hours playing with the gear and software I can finally afford.
So long and thanks for all the warez...
Actually, you can make decisions to not squeaze every penny out of a product through persuing lawsuits etc.
Lawsuits are not cheap on several fronts. First there is the actual cost - from additional document retention right up through the actual cost of the lawyers themselves. The other cost is goodwill. It's a lot less tangible, but ask SCO how it feels to sue your customers. Or perhaps ask people their opinion of the MPAA & RIAA. There should be no board of directors in the world that will look at a case of an individual trading a few copies of their songs & going after them for copyright infringment. The loss of goodwill and the legal fees would far outway any possible positive result from the suit. The RIAA & MPAA however insulate the actual board of directors for their respective cartels. Because they do not have to cope with the loss of goodwill, the total cost of suing the consumers of their product is reduced to a level that they find acceptable. The key factor in showing it to be a scare campain is that they are not likewise trumpeting their successes in catching pirate copies of pressed CDs.
Let's consider two hypothetical scenarios:
1) A mugger snatches a purse from a women. In the process she is knocked down and her wrist is broken.
2) A Micheal Ley type is convicted of funneling off for himself, the pensions of 5,000 people.
You would put the first in jail, while letting the second off with only a fine, even though the largest harm to society is obviously from number 2. Jail violent criminals, yes. But I don't see the justification for making jails exclusively for them. White collar crimes can, and often do, surpass the amount of damage caused by more visceral crimes.
In the cases above, and given only one space/bed left in prison, I would argue giving it to #2.
damaged by dogma
"Do you have a source for this? If it's true, it sounds like good evidence that people would be willing to pay a reasonable amount for access to an all-you-can-eat DRM-free media download service."
It was the most recent torrent site to go down for a few days... it was covered on Slashdot maybe a month or two ago, and the $1.6K is from a post that one of the operators made bragging about said fact.
Since that was just a burst over a few days, a better data point would be to try to estimate how much people donate to TPB or BitTorrent each year. I have no doubt that people would pay for such a service (people pay for DRMed versions, like Napster, Yahoo! Music and the other various all-you-can-eat services), but the question is whether you'd find enough people to license their content to such a service (I assume you were talking in terms of a legal service in which the content providers were compensated). I don't think many people reading this would be interested in paying for such a service, since the content released on such (being DRM-free, of course) would also become instantly available on the free trackers.
Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
Seeing DoD just tripped me out. I haven't seriously swapped warez since the days of the 28.8, but I couriered more than my fair share of DoD stuff. They sure had a LOOOONG run at things if they're only just now getting busted.
"And if a person can pay, by whatever means, the damages the courts say he caused, then why shouldn't he be let off? Isn't that the point of damages? To compensate the plantiff for the damages he or she suffered?"
You're half right. There's the compensatory damaged that you've mentioned, and then there's punitive.
A compensatory, zero-sum system would have its benefits. For example, if you wanted a candy bar from a store and didn't have the money, then it would be an easy choice to just take it, since if you were caught, all you would owe is the cost of the candy bar. Same thing with a coffee maker or a car -- if you're caught, you just owe the cost of the product. Or, if you were a little more enterprising, you might try a little bank account phishing or a Nigerian-style scam operation. The upside is that you might be able to fleece tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars, and if you were caught, all you'd have to do is pay it back, and you'd be back where you started, having lost only a little time.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), the law also has an allowance for what's known as punitive damages. They are often awarded if there's malicious or deliberate intent, and its purpose is to punish the defendant and discourage the defendant from doing it again. For example, if I borrowed your bike and accidentally crashed it into a tree and you took me to court, the court might find for the cost of the bike, plus possibly a little extra as compensation for your lost use of the bike. But if I stole your bike and threw it off a cliff because I don't like you, and you took me to court, the court might make me pay some extra money as punishment. Going to court over a stolen bike is a somewhat silly example, but I hope you get the idea.
Another good reason why defendants shouldn't simply be "let off" is because it's often difficult to get the damages back to the injured parties. Let's take the example of the Nigerian scamster again... there's no doubt that he probably still has most of that $1MM left, and if he's already spent some of it, he can earn it back by just going back and scamming some more people. But if he got that $1MM by scamming 10,000 people, it might be difficult or impossible to find those people and ensure that they get back what they lost. That's why there would be punitive damages, or even jail time -- to encourage that particular scammer to not do it again, so a bunch of people's time isn't wasted again trying to apportion another $1MM back to another 10K victims.
I hope this helps.
Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
Here is another example.. Allow me to quote:
"a heavy sport-utility vehicle driven by a US marine, who heads the embassy security detail in Bucharest, smashed early Saturday into a taxi cab carrying 50-year-old Romanian rock musician and producer Teo Peter [...] [The marine] refused to allow Romanian authorities to take a blood test, and the embassy immediately spirited him out of the country to one of the US military bases in Europe"
As opposed to an earlier (and quite similar) case, this time involving an US victim:
"a 1997 fatal car crash in downtown Washington, in which a drunk Georgian diplomat, Gueogui Makharadze, rear-ended another car waiting at an intersection, killing a 16-year-old girl. At that time, the State Department applied heavy pressure on then Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze, forcing him to reverse an earlier decision to move Makharadze out of the country and persuading him to lift the diplomat's immunity. As a result, Makharadze was compelled to stand trial and serve jail time in the United States."
The reason why is simple. Don't fuck with money. The same is true in Major League Baseball. Otis Nixon was caught using cocaine. No biggie. Didn't involve money. Pete Rose gambled. That involved money. He will pay a stiffer price, so to speak. This guy should have shot someone he'd be out sooner depending on the circumstances.
well, subjectively worse I suppose. since most prisoners are men, this probably alleviates some of the male rape, and perhaps from a utilitarian viewpoint - a smaller number of people would actually be raped.
If it's true, it sounds like good evidence that people would be willing to pay a reasonable amount for access to an all-you-can-eat DRM-free media download service.
AHAHAHA, "willing to pay," that is a good one! The only reason they paid and supported such a site is because they do NOT want to pay anything for their ill-gotten gains, and they hate the companies who go after greedy freeloaders like them.
7 hours and 20 minutes. I honestly expected this within 30 minutes flat. Thanks for not letting me down.
Of course it got slashdotted - is there anyway I can see the original article somehow?
Is there a mirror available....
Hicks has a case to answer, but the situation regarding his five year incarceration without trial in Guantanamo (and the impotency of the Australian government in 'demanding' the US hurry it up) is overshadowing Hicks' original crimes, whatever they may be.
This is becoming serious enough that the 10-year encumbent government realises it may turn this year's federal election against them.
How precious.
Prison for the hacker or the infringer is wrong.
But prison for other white collar criminals --- as the Geek defines them --- is right.
The Geek is ever the hanging judge when the Microsoft exec is in the dock. But never when it is one of his own.
You're absolutely right. If somebody committed a crime which wasn't violent, why the heck should we put him in a prison?
I fully expect to be modded into oblivion for saying this, but I can tell you why. To punish him.
The rights and wrongs of this particular case aside, I believe that if you commit a crime you should be punished. I live in the UK, and we are currently suffering from massive overcrowding in our prisons. Needless to say a lot of the ensuing debate has centred around whether we need to send people to prison at all, whether prison is really the best way to rehabilitate criminals.
That, to me, misses the point. Prison may not be the most effective rehabilitation, but it is a horrible punishment, and I want criminals punished. If we can rehabilitate them, great. But punish them first.
"I realise this is not a very popular opinion but it's the truth, and there for needs to be said" -Bill Hicks
Forget rapping about murder and drug trafficing, i am rapping about bootlegin DVDs!
Now thats being gangsta.
not another free Kevin campaign I hope
http://www.bookforce.net
I'll ask the question another way - do you want a large chunk of your taxes to be spent on shipping people from halfway around the world and locking them up for longer than a multiple rape offender over a civil matter or would you prefer it to be sorted out by copyright lawyers in a civil court? Law and order drives are cheap votes with expensive consequences - look at the ridiculously large US prison populations for an example and wonder who is going to get released early that is an actual danger to society to make space for a copyright violator.
Fines have little effect on the destitute, they only hurt those who have money or plan to get it someday. A classic example of this is the 'McLibel' case in the UK. Unless you mean debtors prison, in which case we're adding yet one more reason to throw people in jail...On a related note, my neighbor's kid is in jail again after knocking up wife#2, his 4th baby so far. He has no education and no skills to speak of, fining someone like that is laughable.
It shouldn't be a problem for him to generate substantial earnings through clandestine sales of pharmaceuticals, however. So at least the state has left him with viable options for the future.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-