Turkey Censors YouTube

FM Reader writes "After a controversial mock-up video reportedly submitted by a Greek member about Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey, Turkish courts ordered the national ISPs to ban the online video service, YouTube. YouTube hostnames are currently redirected at the DNS level to a page that announces the court order."

Comments

Headache for EU negotiators

[Reverse Gear]

I think this is about the stupidest thing I have heard from Turkey for a long time (not that I hear much from there). Seems the courts and government doesn't agree on if Turkey should work on tying to become part of the European Union.
Things like these are going to be a problem a serious problem in any negotiations, I can hardly think of any way to demonstrate more clearly that freedom of speech is not something that is not practiced in Turkey.

Thinking about it I find it a bit ironic that the country I live in, Denmark (member of the EU) have done exactly the same thing with allofmp3 that Turkey now did to youtube, yet Denmark is probably quite well known for their so called defense of freedom of speech, latest demonstrated by some drawings of Muhammed.
I guess the reasons behind the two court ordered bannings are a bit different.
In Turkey the reasons being nationalistic and religious, while it in Denmark is the music industries (and according to them also the artists) interest and money that is the reason (one could maybe then start arguing that we just have a different kind of "state religion" in Denmark, I will keep out of that discussion).

Anyhow I kind of understand if the Turkish negotiators will think of the EU as talking with two tongues if they start telling them that Turkey can't do this kind of thing if they want to be part of the EU.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[geoffspear]

If you think that the "right" to purchase copyrighted music from another country without copyright laws is a "free speech" issue, anything else you say probably isn't very credible.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[julesh]

Thinking about it I find it a bit ironic that the country I live in, Denmark (member of the EU) have done exactly the same thing with allofmp3 that Turkey now did to youtube, yet Denmark is probably quite well known for their so called defense of freedom of speech, latest demonstrated by some drawings of Muhammed.

Of course there are differences between the right to free speech and the right to distribute unlicensed music.

Anyhow I kind of understand if the Turkish negotiators will think of the EU as talking with two tongues if they start telling them that Turkey can't do this kind of thing if they want to be part of the EU.

Frankly, Turkey is already a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights, which effectively grants Google/YouTube/anyone who was distributing a video via YouTube the right to compensation from the Turkish government via the European Court of Human Rights over this. EU membership is irrelevant, largely.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[CRCulver]

If you think that the "right" to purchase copyrighted music from another country without copyright laws is a "free speech" issue

While it is debatable whether AllofMP3 was following them correctly, the Russian Federation does have copyright laws.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[AKAImBatman]

I don't think it will carry much weight. Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights reads:

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

Emphasis is obviously mine. Bascially, Turkey could argue that their laws are not restrictive to free speech, and that their laws only "protect the morals [and] reputation" of the citizens of its country. (Both past and present.)

Other EU countries can try to make a stink about it, but I seriously doubt that anyone is going to push Turkey too hard.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[julesh]

Emphasis is obviously mine. Bascially, Turkey could argue that their laws are not restrictive to free speech, and that their laws only "protect the morals [and] reputation" of the citizens of its country. (Both past and present.)

Protection of morals has been used as a get-out in the past; it is how censorship of pornography and/or "hate speech" is typically justified. I just don't see how it would apply in this case, as (if I read the summary correctly) nothing even approximately moral is involved. The issue is purely political.

I believe the protection of the reputation of others has been interpreted by the court in the past as only applying to those who are still alive, which would rule it out in this case.

Other EU countries can try to make a stink about it, but I seriously doubt that anyone is going to push Turkey too hard.

Of course, anybody can petition the European Court of Human Rights these days. I'm not sure how much profit YouTube will be losing here, but I'd be unsurprised if they weren't at least considering doing so right now.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupidest thing you've heard from Turkey in a long time? Ever hear of the Armenian Genocide? To this day Turkey has refused to acknowledge it even happened. I'd say refusing to acknowledge a 1.5 million body count, almost 2/3rds of the entire population of Armenia, is pretty stupid. Considering there is enormous amounts of data supporting it, eye witness accounts, paper trails, almost every major government on Earth having an official position stating that it occurred.

To them, it never happened. They should not be allowed to join the EU until they own up their atrocities, nor should they be supported or even considered.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't the Turks murder people who admit a genocide took place against the Armenians in 1900s?

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Dogtanian]

Things like these are going to be a problem a serious problem in any negotiations, I can hardly think of any way to demonstrate more clearly that freedom of speech is not something that is not practiced in Turkey. There are strong forces opposed to EU membership within Turkey, and it has been speculated on at least one occasion that decisions like this and others are attempts to rock the boat and weaken the chances of Turkey joining the EU, orchestrated by such people.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

I just have one question. How can the EU seriously consider Turkey for membership when it
1) refuses to recognize a member of the EU (Cyprus) and
2) refuses to end its illegal occupation of that same member (the bogus "nation" of Northern Cyprus)?
Does refusal to recognize an existing member somehow not matter? If it was me, I'd tell Turkey in no uncertain terms that until those issues are resolved, talks are meaningless because there can be no membership without resolution of both issues and both issues can only be resolved in a way that Turkey will never agree to. I suppose the EU has nothing better to do than waste everyone's time with this charade.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[elrous0]

I would hope their would be strong forces within the EU opposed to their membership to. I mean, does the EU really want to open the Pandora's Box of letting a country like Turkey in? Even Russia will be a hard sell, much less a country that is about one generation away from rule by Sharia.

-Eric

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[antibryce]

France didn't seem to have a problem joining the EU, despite some free speech issues.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Even Russia will be a hard sell, much less a country that is about one generation away from rule by Sharia.

Take a look at Russia's demographics & birth rates. That sentence applies to Russia, as well.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Drive42]

Jesus. It was foul enough that you made an obi-wan joke. Making an obi-wan joke about the Armenian genocide is just unfathomably idiotic.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[LizardKing]

a country that is about one generation away from rule by Sharia

Have you been to Turkey? Do you know any Turks? I guess not. Last time I went to Turkey, I drank beer in cafes, saw attractive Turkish women walking around unaccompanied and never once felt uncomfortable as a "Westerner". Yup, there are problems in Turkey - the mistreatment of the large Kurdish minority as well as the nationalist posturing of some politicians and newspapers spring to mind - but to say it's almost a Sharia state is a joke.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[DrWho520]

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul (Istanbul)
Istanbul (Istanbul)

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbu

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[inviolet]

Protection of morals has been used as a get-out in the past; it is how censorship of pornography and/or "hate speech" is typically justified. I just don't see how it would apply in this case, as (if I read the summary correctly) nothing even approximately moral is involved. The issue is purely political.

Few people are wise enough to understand the distinction between moral and political. Observe the common practice of equating right/wrong with legal/illegal. How many Americans understand Oliver North's point, that often it is morally correct to break the law?

Few people get it. And even fewer societies manage to legislate it, in the form of legally protecting immoral behavior. America, the alleged bastion of "separation of church and state", just can't resist the urge to ban anything even vaguely self-destructive. Well, except maybe for Nevada.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[jabagi]

How nice to hear that the Armenian Genocide really happened!

First of all the events happened 90+ years ago, second Turkey acknowledges that the Armenian population in the East regions were forced to relocate by the Ottoman Empire, third they also acknowledge a lot of deaths occured on both sides, fourth this is the first time I heard the death toll as 1.5 million, fifth there is a lot of evidence disproving that it was a genocide in a legal sense, sixth there are only a handful of governments with an official position (positive AND negative) on the "Armenian Genocide".

PS: I am a Turkish citizen but not Turkish and I criticize the nationalistic bullshit in Turkey a lot, but to hear so much disinformation in an unrelated topic gets on my nerves!

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[LizardKing]

Read the background to the partition of Cyprus. It came about after a coup was launched by the military junta running mainland Greece. The goal of the coup was to assassinate the Cypriot president and replace him with a puppet leader who would declare Cyprus part of Greece. This ran contrary to the agreements signed when Cyprus gained independence and was opposed by most Greek Cypriots as well the Turkish minority. Following the coup, Turkey invaded the Northern part of the Ireland to protect the large ethnic Turkish minority (who had often been treated as second class citizens by the ethnic Greeks since independence). Since then reunification attempts under the auspices of the EU and UN have failed, the Turkish Cypriots are mostly in favour, but the Greek Cypriots elected an strongly anti-reunification president to derail the process.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[should_be_linear]

Well, Denmark case and Turkey case clearly shows that both countries has some very weak points when it comes to democracy standards, just like any other country, but there is one big difference: Turkey is muslim country, so we can spend some hours again on /. wondering if any muslim country will EVER come even close to us, European super-humans (übermensch) standards. In other EU news, Italian, Austrian, France, Polish ultra-right/fascist parties are happily increasing their election-base. Holland soldiers assisted in 1995 Srebrenica genocide celbrated by Holland prime minister. Polish president is sending german (!?) journalist to court for making jokes on his account, Italian media are ruled by one person that happens to be leader of most popular party in country (talking about freedom of speech), In Czech Republic, Gipseys minority are increasingly isolated in ghettos and even women are forced to be surgicaly sterilized... So, how could ever happen that evil Muslim Turkey banned YouTube page if they want to join us, EU democracy heaven on earth?

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[seyyah]

I can hardly think of any way to demonstrate more clearly that freedom of speech is not something that is not practiced in Turkey. And I can hardly think of a better way to demonstrate the danger of using not too many times in one sentence. Now more to the point, when I saw that I couldn't access youTube this morning, I immediately guessed what might have happened. No one familiar with events in Turkey should be surprised by this kind of thing at all. And finally, the rational is nationalist not religious as is usually the case in Turkey.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[caluml]

A bit about the Armenian genocide here: Turkey and the EU

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[toygar.ozturk]

Enormous amount of data supporting it?? http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[SadPenguin]

This is not true! This person's belief about his "right" to purchase copyrighted music has NOTHING to do with his credibility. You are victim to a common pitfall of argument. Here are a series of logical fallacies that are quite commonly used in the support of an argument, but cannot logically be used to support it.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Richard Steiner]

Of course there are differences between the right to free speech and the right to distribute unlicensed music.

Since when is music distributed under a license?

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be ridiculous. Nothing happened like that. You are just misdirecting people as most people did in this topic.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[nomadic]

How many Americans understand Oliver North's point, that often it is morally correct to break the law?

I have a pretty strict policy of not going to Oliver North for advice on morality.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[rainman_bc]

. I mean, does the EU really want to open the Pandora's Box of letting a country like Turkey in?

The prospect of EU membership has made Turkey evolve quite a bit in her respect for human rights. It'd be a slap in the face to reject Turkey, however this is a slap in the face to the EU's stance on freedom of expression as well.

And btw, both my parents are Greek. I myself am pretty ambivalent myself to Turkish people, but many Greeks are not. Turkish people committed many atrocities against Greeks ( and many others including Armenians ). I can see why Greece in particular still begrudges Turkey and opposes Turkey's membership to the EU.

Although both sides have come a long way - with the earthquakes in Turkey and Greece a few years ago, both sides were wise enough to put aside differences and rush to each other's aid.

I think the path the EU is taking is great... Dubya should take a look and see what the EU has accomplished so far in Turkey.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

well that piece is nonsense.. so if turkey doesn't have anything to do with Europe then Troya has anything to do with greek mythology since turks considder trojans as proto turks ... and Turkey is a country that excists out of different roots... the writer of that writing forgets that... Turkey is the place where Abram is born, Turkey is the place place John the babtist has lived.. Turkey has just more that one religious roots, Think about shamanistic traces, Greek and even older mythologies, Christianity and Islam, those are the factors that have made Turkey what it is today.

And again if u want to write something about a country try to read some books about it and do some research ... and not everything u read on the net is true :P

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[nietsch]

This argument is always abused when somebody wants to argue that turkey should not be part of the EU. As far as I know, the EU is most of all an economic union, this argument has no economic merit at all. 'They' can not own up their atrocities, as the 'they' that committed them are long dead and buried. Only if you have very oldfashioned morals you can think that a country (or people as turkey is not the ottoman empire) carries this guilt over the generations. Its mostly racism that motivates these 'Turkey not in EU' plebs.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[geoffspear]

Of course it's true. If I tell you that 3*3= 8, I have no credibility in regards to mathematics. It would be a logical fallacy to then assert that if I say "9*9=81" I'm incorrect because I believed that 3*3=8, but not to assert that I'm not credible.

I do not assert that anything else GP stated is false, merely that no one should take him seriously even if he says true things.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

"Protection of morals has been used as a get-out in the past; it is how censorship of pornography and/or "hate speech" is typically justified."

This would be because the European convention on human rights was drawn up by lawmakers who still wanted to leave themselves the wiggle room to restrict free speech if they wanted to.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[jimbojw]

In the Parliamentary republic of Turkey, "free speech" copyrights you!

HAHAHAHA! - I can tell by the look on your face you had no idea that was coming!

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

A couple of months ago when Turkmenbasi died Turkish newspapers mocked his personality cult. I hope people in Turkey realize the cult of Ataturk is no different. I remember vividly (circa 1984) how my elementary school teacher would beat up orphans from the catholic orphanage in Bebek when they couldn't recite one of the many reasons Ataturk is great. Turkey will become a great nation once it can stop praying at the alter of Ataturk.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

The Cyprus dispute is a huge stumbling block for Turkey's EU membership. The EU granted Cyprus EU membership even though it preferred Cyprus to be united beforehand. The EU recognises Southern Cyprus as the rightful government of the whole of Cyprus. The European Court of Human Rights agreed with the Greek Cypriots that the Annan Plan was untenable. The EU is putting constant pressure on Turkey, and as a result, Turkey is now negotiating with Cyprus.

What gives you the impression that this is something that the EU is ignoring? Just because they are willing to sit down and talk to Turkey? They've said time and time again that Turkey aren't getting into the EU while the Cyprus dispute is unresolved, and they are completely supportive of the Greek Cypriot claims.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

They also have an interesting reaction to the availability of Firefox in Kurdish.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Lord Ender]

Stupid things from Turkey? How about having an anti-science culture that actually demonizes Darwin? That crap isn't government policy, but it's hard to imagine such ignorant ideas becoming widespread if the government provided adequate public education.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupidest thing you've heard from Turkey in a long time? Ever hear of the Armenian Genocide?

Uh, yes. The Armenian Genocide was 1915-1917. I'd say 90 years counts as "a long time".

Yours was the stupidest thing I've read on slashdot in a long time.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[geoffspear]

Since at least the copyright act of 1909, but possibly earlier.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Bob-taro]

Few people are wise enough to understand the distinction between moral and political. Observe the common practice of equating right/wrong with legal/illegal. How many Americans understand Oliver North's point, that often it is morally correct to break the law?

Few people get it. And even fewer societies manage to legislate it, in the form of legally protecting immoral behavior. America, the alleged bastion of "separation of church and state", just can't resist the urge to ban anything even vaguely self-destructive. Well, except maybe for Nevada.

Wow! You are so wise!

People who complain about legislating morality are generally people who disagree with those particular morals. I can understand that a state's laws can be in conflict with one's personal morals to the point where obeying the law is immoral (to that individual) but that doesn't mean that law and morality should not be connected!

Nearly all laws are about morals. Some are obvious (murder, theft), some less so. But most laws are there to say - this is right, this is wrong. "Polluting the earth is wrong" is a value judgment. "Discriminating on the basis of race is wrong", "Driving recklessly is wrong", "Copyright holders deserve to be paid for electronic copies of a work", "All customers' packets are created equal" - all value judgments. Not all morals are religious. All states can and do "legislate morality".

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[inviolet]

I have a pretty strict policy of not going to Oliver North for advice on morality.

Why? What did he do that was immoral?

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[slashkitty]

Turkey is not going to make it into the EU anytime soon. I was just there 3 weeks ago. While many things are progressive, the country still lacks many of the standards that EU member states enjoy. The streets are horrible. They burned trash right in the open in the street. The city, Istanbul, just smelled horrible. There was plenty of swindling tourists.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry you have lost all credibility, it would be a waste of time to read anything else you have to say.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah because it never happened. Its Ottoman's fault

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[quag7]

I'm not Armenian or Turkish or Greek; so I have no specific axe to grind at all, except to say that this site, referenced in a previous reply as some sort of "evidence" against the genocide, is pathetic:

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

Within 3 paragraphs, it builds the same kind of "they have wealth and power and control information" conspiracy bullshit in the same way anti-Semitic literature does, and then makes this remarkable statement:

"Turks characteristically shun propaganda, and have chosen not to dwell on the tragedies of the past, forging ahead to build upon brotherhood."

That may be true of most Turks, but I have my doubts about the guy publishing this site. Not much brotherhood in that website.

Armenians in the United States, at least, are not a large ethnic group.

"As descendants of the merchant class from the Ottoman Empire, Armenians have been successful in acquiring the wealth and power to make their voices heard... and they have made good use of the "Christian" connection to gain the sympathies of Westerners who share their religion and prejudices."

Is utterly ridiculous. Absurd. Most Americans, I'd wager, have never even heard of the Armenian genocide, or find Armenia (or Turkey for that matter) on a map. I'm not proud of this, but this statement rings like a total fabrication in light of it. As for the other Western nations, I cannot say - I hope they know more about this than I assume most Americans do, but I find it hard to believe that Europeans, for instance, are "just making crap up" to fuck with Turkey.

Either a genocide happened or it did not. Almost to this day, some people expect Germans to continue to apologize for the Holocaust (which is ridiculous and insulting to the generations during and since who have contributed dramatically to the human rights cause and freedom around the world), but the way Germany has dealt with this event in their history (and continues to deal with it) provides an interesting contrast to the way that countries like Turkey (if these comments are representative of the prevalent attitudes in Turkey - I honestly do not know if they are, so I do not mean to impugn all of Turkey) and Cambodia have dealt with theirs.

*Everyone's shit stinks, including Turkey's.* I know, my own country is right now run by monkeys hurling more than their fair of shit - a display of excess so quintessential to the United States. We also have our unfortunate and shameful legacy of slavery and racism and genocide of the American Indians - something pointed at by the stupid website above - and one thing we do not do - most of us, anyway - is deny it. At least, no one I know does. It is part of our legacy, and who we are. We may not have done enough in penance for these sins - I'm the first to admit it - but no one denies that it happened, and that many of our ancestors - relatives - were responsible for it. There is a statue in the center of Santa Fe - a monument, I forget to who - some cowboy - which talks about how he "battled Indian savages". Not only was the word savages ground off of the statue, but a memorial plaque acknowledging our shit treatment of people who owned that land was placed on it as well. A pittance of a gesture, but at least an acknowledgement of it, and anyone who visits the park in the middle of Santa Fe will reflect on what happened where they're standing. The statue is an example of a nation coming to terms - to some degree - with its unsavory past. Acknowledgement alone isn't enough, but it's the first step.

Wikipedia has a map of who recognizes this as genocide, and who does not, hence my comment on Europeans since much of Europe recognizes it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ArmenianGenocid eRecognition.png

Yes, technically this is off topic, but as an American, I'm getting a little tired of having to take responsibilit

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[inviolet]

Surely so. But I assume we all here understand the difference between an action which violates another's rights (e.g. theft), versus an action which does not. Morality applies to both, of course, as you noted, but the latter is where the law doesn't belong.

These days we are hearing a lot of claptrap about "a right to not be offended", as a prelude to banning some offensive behavior. So even the enemies of freedom understand the relationship between morality, rights, and law.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, I'll bite to this flame... Henry Morgenthau was then US Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgenthau%2C_ Sr.), this is what HE wrote, of the stuff HE saw http://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/comment/morgentha u/Morgen24.htm ... and this is but an example, you can read the rest of his book : http://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/comment/morgentha u/MorgenTC.htm and even then, you can look at all the sources that are from non-Armenians (http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/armenia n_genocide.htm, the pictures might upset your stomach... http://imia.cc.duth.gr/turkey/arme.e.html, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6045182.stm, etc.).

I will go on and say that nationalism, radicalism serves no purpose for humanity, it is racism in it's purist form and it only serves to treat another person with less respect than you would like to be treated yourself. For shame, I get sick when I think of all the people that died and still die for such petty things.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[illegalcortex]

So 50 years from now, it will be fine for Germany to pass a law to outlaw saying Germans massacred Jews in WWII? I think it's clear to most of the rest of the civilized world why Turkey is in the wrong here. It's certainly clear to ME, and I wouldn't even know how to be an anti-Turkish racist.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

refuses to end its illegal occupation of that same member (the bogus "nation" of Northern Cyprus)

Cyprus? You're worried about Cyprus? When Turkey still holds poor Constantinople under occupation and tyranny?

Let the cry go up -- Free Constantinople! Reclaim the Queen of Cities for the West!

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Carewolf]

No.

Most laws are about proving a stable basis for civilization. Murder and theft are illegal because that makes our society more productive. Early morals came from the good advice on how to run a society, but today the morals and law has diverged and morals are all over the map with some being silly and other being usefull.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[kidcharles]

How many Americans understand Oliver North's point, that often it is morally correct to break the law? I would have gone with, say, Martin Luther King, Jr. instead of Oliver North, but point taken.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Bob-taro]

But I assume we all here understand the difference between an action which violates another's rights (e.g. theft), versus an action which does not.

Never assume. The line isn't always so clear. I've known people who think laws against drug use are immoral, while at the same time think cigarettes should be banned because of societal cost. Or people who argue against the death penalty saying, "what if you're wrong?", but have no problem with legal abortion (What if you're wrong and life does begin at conception?). I'm sure there is evidence of the "societal costs" of prostitution, gambling, drug and alcohol use, etc. I'm not saying all such things should be made illegal, just that there might be room for reasonable people to disagree on whether someone engaged in those activities is "only hurting himself" or "violating another's rights".

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[BBird]

To join the EU you have to implement a number of rules and principles (called the acquis comunautaire) that goes far beyond the merely economic.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Teun]

Indeed, it is quite curious to see how the 'Real Turks' hop up and down at the thought of anything Kurdish.

If it hadn't killed that many (and still is killing!) it would be amusing.

Pride of ones country and history is one thing but this type of nationalism is sick.

Just as a check, the Turkish Nationalists are claiming there is no such thing as a Kurdish language, then how the hell can it be banned?
OK, legally they are not specifically banning any language it's just the law that all political publications in Turkey have to be in Turkish :)

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[mdozturk]

I agree with the Turkish side until the creation of the TRNC. Turkey often says "our invasion was legal as we had guarantor power to protect the cypriot constitution". Creating TRNC is NOT protecting the Cypriot constitution. Turkey always wanted the country split into two (taksim) and when they found an excuse they happily obliged.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[ibrahimxeliki]

Turkey banned YouTube not because of the religion. It is because of their dictator, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. It is not coincidence that Ataturk was a good friend of Hitler. Western countries praised and are still praising that dictator. Why? Because, he brutally oppressed Muslims. European Union must realize that there are no good dictators. Here are some facts about Turkey for people of civilized countries:

1) Anything bad you say about Kemal Ataturk will guarantee your death sentence.
2) Anything bad you say about military will guarantee your death sentence.
3) God forbid if you throw a Turkish flag on the ground, it will be your pitiful end.
4) Every school and public building must have Ataturk's statue.
5) Every public office (private offices implicit have this requirements as well. At the least you will see that every office has his picture), must have Ataturk's picture hanging on the wall.
6) All students must start school by praising Ataturk every day.
7) Over 90% is Muslim, but women are not allowed to wear religious attire.
8) Over 30% of the population is Kurdish (That is over 25 million people). They don't have right to speak their language, don't have schools or any cultural rights.
9) If you claim you are Kurd in public space, you will count flies in Turkish jails for 25 years.
10) Finally, Turks massacred Armenians. If you talk about that it will guarantee your death.
11) Want more? Did I tell you about hat law? Well, when Ataturk tried to modernize Muslim Turkey, he killed over 150,000 men because they objected wearing a type of hat that he enforced on everyone.
12) Want more? Did I tell you about Kurds? Every Kurdish student must say every day: "I am Turk, I am happy. .... What I a happiness being a Turk"
13) Want more? Should I tell you about Kurds? Every mountain and hill in Kurdish region(Kurdistan) is decorated with writings such as "What a happiness being a Turk." Did you know that Ataturk said this?
14) Want more? Should I tell you about Kurds? Do you know if you say Kurdistan for Kurdish region, you spend your life in jail?
15) Want more?

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[nietsch]

Did you know that before Cyprus was to be admitted, it had to reunite with the other half and form one country. So a referendum was held in both parts. The turkish part had a large majority for reunion. The greek part rejected the reunion so both parts were not reunited and as such did not comply with the EU demands. Instead of not admitting Cyprus, they went ahead and admitted the greek part(the part that rejected reunion) anyway. So why again do you want Turkey to recognise that half-nation? Lets not forget that this is a proxy conflict between greece and turkey, both behaving very childish over an island not much bigger than the channel islands. Why it should be an independent nation is beyond me.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[bogjobber]

Just to clarify, Turkey does acknowledge that the Armenians were killed, they just claim that it was a result of the war and was not intended as genocide. This is just as bad as claiming it didn't even happen, as the evidence overwhelmingly shows it to be an attempted (and largely successful) ethnic cleansing.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[SadPenguin]

You're not asserting that anything else GP stated is false, but despite the truth of the things he says, we should take them as false? You're on drugs.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[thinklinux2007]

Just as a check, the Turkish Nationalists are claiming there is no such thing as a Kurdish language, then how the hell can it be banned? OK, legally they are not specifically banning any language it's just the law that all political publications in Turkey have to be in Turkish :) There is no such thing like banning a language in Turkey. Kurds can open their own Kurdish schools, their own Kurdish TV etc, like any other ethnic group in Turkey. It is just that, official language of Turkey is TURKISH, and in any government related work you must use TURKISH, like any independent country would do. Turks live in Greece cannot even call themselves as Turks, cannot get such rights. In Netherlands or Germany there are more then 3 million Turks and they don't have such rights... EU is just bullshit....

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Stupidest thing you've heard from Turkey in a long time? Ever hear of the Armenian Genocide? To this day Turkey has refused to acknowledge it even happened. I'd say refusing to acknowledge a 1.5 million body count, almost 2/3rds of the entire population of Armenia, is pretty stupid. Considering there is enormous amounts of data supporting it, eye witness accounts, paper trails, almost every major government on Earth having an official position stating that it occurred.

To them, it never happened. They should not be allowed to join the EU until they own up their atrocities, nor should they be supported or even considered.
>>>>>>>>>>>

PLEASE DO NOT USE SLASHDOT FOR YOU UNFOUNDED LIES. IF THERE WAS A GENOCIDE, WHY DONT YOU "ARMENIANS" MAKE ALL HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS PUBLIC. BY PHOTOSHOPPING DOCUMENTS, YOU CANNOT CONVINCE ANYONE. LET YOUR HISTORIANS SPEAK WITH FACTUAL INFORMATION.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[nietsch]

You are right on that point, Turkey (turkish gouvernment) is behaving very silly in this respect and it should stop this censorship of things that are 'anti turkish'. I doubt that their law directly states that it is illegal to call the armenian genocide just that, but they do have some silly laws that forbid you to insult the turkish culture, nation, or identity (or some bs like that). Sometime after some judge ( the gouvernment) decided that this included naming the Armenian genocide(committed before the turkish state was created) that. Still a fucked up situation, but not one that you can just correct without political repercussions (like legalising flagburning in the US).

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

what about kurdish terrorist group killing 30000 turkish/kurdish people including newborn babies in turkey. people who just speak their mind without doing any research are simply stupid. and yes.. you are one of them. by writing these comments you are supporting terrorism and killings of infants/innocent people in turkey. this is how stupid or evil you are.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[geoffspear]

No, you shouldn't take them as false. You may or may not choose to give his opinions on one subject weight based on his opinions on another subject. The world isn't black and white, and I see no one here attempting to construct a logical proof. You might not be on drugs, but you've probably taken an overdose of math.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

damn right, just like those filthy jews, everyone knows they'd forge a genocide as well for fun and profit! fake dead bodies and everything!1

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Turkey should not be allowed to join the EU because it is a Turkish country, like Kazakhstan, and not a European country. Turks cannot be Europeans anymore than Europeans can be Turks.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Since then reunification attempts under the auspices of the EU and UN have failed, the Turkish Cypriots are mostly in favour, but the Greek Cypriots elected an strongly anti-reunification president to derail the process.

Of course the Turkish Cypriots are in favour. Under the Annan plan that the UN came up with, they'd get to keep the majority of the land they took from the Greek Cypriots!

Even if you think Turkey was right to invade Cyprus, you can't seriously think that Greek Cypriots are going to agree to a deal where the homes that were stolen from them don't get returned, in order to help the country that stole their homes get into the EU.

As for the Greek Cypriots derailing the EU reunification attempt, the EU Court of Human Rights agreed with the Greek Cypriots that the deal was no good.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[dinther]

That must classify as the stupidest thing I have heard all week. I would say all month but we are only 8 days into March.

If a government of a "free" country that advocates free speech and all those things the "Western" world is so proud of, then they have no right to block access to any particular web-site just because it offers the opportunity to do something wrong (Which by the way is still disputed)

Why should people in Denmark not be allowed to browse allofmp3? Why should they not be allowed to listen to sound clips and browse and read the enormous music library there? No, let's block access for the entire population so that they won't be tempted to break the law. Those idiots better ban movies like "The fast and the furious" because people may be tempted to speed when driving home after the movies.

People, I say it again...

We are rapidly breaking down our western model of civilisation. We are giving away and taking away our own freedoms for which our forefathers fought so hard to obtain. Allied forces kicked out Nazis in the second world war so people would to be forced to show an "Ausweis" (passport) at every street corner and now I hear that in the Netherlands's you have to carry a passport on you at all times even when not leaving the country!

Governments, Local councils and other "authorities" continue to dream up new law's and new rules at a neck breaking pace to control the local and national issues. Yet they never remove any rules and now often are hamstrung themselves by their own net of burocracy.

WE ARE CHOKING OUR SELVES!

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

what about kurdish terrorist group killing 30000 turkish/kurdish people including newborn babies in turkey.

What about it? Atrocities are committed by ALL ethnic groups. Acts committed by the Kurds don't magically invalidate or justify acts committed by the Turks. All it shows is that the real bad guys are the humans.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[anothy]

ah, but reclaim it from - and for - whom? Constantinople stopped being the Queen of Cities when it was sacked in the fourth crusade... by the west, mostly French and English knights. that single event fatally wounded the Byzantine Empire (which was in a direct line of succession from the Roman Empire), leading not long after to the rise of the Ottoman Empire.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[spun]

He sold weapons to Iran behind the backs of the American people. He channeled the profits to the Contras, a group of known terrorists, despite the Boland Amendment prohibiting it. He supported amoral dictator and drug kingpin Manuel Noriega.

It isn't just that he broke the law, he supported people who brought death and suffering to millions. I honestly can't believe there are people who support what he did. The man was evil.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[spun]

America, the alleged bastion of "separation of church and state", just can't resist the urge to ban anything even vaguely self-destructive.

Like overspending and going into debt? Gambling? Destroying the environment? Wait, nope. America pays lip-service to its Puritanical roots, but not at the expense of corporatist profiteering.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[killjoe]

From the sound of things the turks are no longer enthusiastic about joining the union. They probably have figured out they are not wanted there.

It seems to me they should make their own union of turkic people with turkey, turkmenistan, azarbaijan, kazakhistan etc. That would have europe and russia shitting bricks.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[inviolet]

He sold weapons to Iran behind the backs of the American people. He channeled the profits to the Contras, a group of known terrorists, despite the Boland Amendment prohibiting it. He supported amoral dictator and drug kingpin Manuel Noriega.

Do you know why he did those things?

It is possible (indeed it is likely, at the Pentagon level) to find oneself in a position of choosing between two foul acts.

It isn't just that he broke the law, he supported people who brought death and suffering to millions. I honestly can't believe there are people who support what he did.

That should be a clue that you don't know the other half of the story.

The man was evil.

That should be proof that you don't know the other half of the story. By calling him 'evil', you've announced that you have no desire to understand his decisions. (And he wasn't psychotic i.e. in a state of having random motivations.)

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[illegalcortex]

A blanket law like the one Turkey has is even WORSE than a specific one about the Armenian genocide. It can be used to silence anyone the state doesn't like.

FYI, flag burning is and has always been legal in the US. There have been laws passed to try to make it illegal, but those have all been struck down by our highest court. It would take an amendment to our constitution to allow making it illegal. That has also been attempted many times for over a decade, but it has always failed.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

I went to Turkey several times and indeed have Turkish friends. There are certain things you have to understand:

a) As a tourist you will not be directed to the reality of Turkey and even if you travel alone, which is very easy and not a problem at all, you will most likely pick places that are developed. The majority of the country however lives in poverty. I have traveled in places that people are desperate, very poor and almost totally uneducated. By going to Istanbul, Izmir or lets say super-touristic Antalya you do not see the majority but the minority. It used to be much much worse though a decade ago, so I tend to be optimistic.

b) The Turkish people are raised and taught to pay respect to their ancestors and there should be no problem with that, most countries do the same. History, when interpreted is like a coin, it depends on which side you want to look at. The problem I always had with this when talking to Turkish friends is that they are also very suppressed, most that voice a different opinion and exercise criticism are subject to penalties according to state law. You may look at people like Orhan Pamuk http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/jurist_search.php?q=pam uk, who if he was not a Nobel prize winner and less famous would be thrown in jail.

c) Turks are so biased by the state propaganda that they refuse to see alternative views in topics like the "Kurdish problem", the various pending issues with Greece and Cyprus, the Armenian Genocide and others. I had specifically two conversations with Turks, who apparently are friends, on these topics and in both cases I was refused to make an elaborate discussion, given that I have different opinion from those the Turkish state advocates. Since then, I found out that these topics are taboos and it is better to avoid bringing them up if you are not fancy to pick a verbal fight.

d) Women in any other places of Turkey, but the big cities that are rather modernized, will mostly look to the ground never in the eye. They are usually accompanied by other family members and in general follow all older traditional customs that propose suppression than freedom. You cannot regard a state as democratic, or of exercising free speech when people at the level of the family are not. Family is the unit of democracy, if there is failure there, it will propagate to society as a whole.

It is not the fault of the Turkish people, it is largely the state's responsibility to educate properly and modernize their people to come up to the standards of the rest of the western world. Just like the Germans recognized their atrocities and had the nerve to publicly admit it and are ashamed about their grandpa's, the Turkish state must do the same. To do so, the military has to pick their fingers out of politics, it is no longer possible to exercise the diplomacy the way the Ottoman empire did with fire and steel.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[inviolet]

I would have gone with, say, Martin Luther King, Jr. instead of Oliver North, but point taken.

Good point. There's a difference between the two, though. MLKJr advocated civil disobedience against an unjust law. Oliver North practiced willful disobedience of a just law which happened to proscribe destructive behavior in a specific (and very morally complex) situation.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[nomadic]

Do you know why he did those things?

Because he was a fanatic caught up in the idiotic anti-communist paranoia of the times. The ridiculous idea that some tiny South American country turning communist would somehow pose such a danger to the United States that it requires someone to violate their oath, lie to their president, and break the law, is stupid on its face.

It is possible (indeed it is likely, at the Pentagon level) to find oneself in a position of choosing between two foul acts.

Not. Their. Choice. The Pentagon's job is to carry out the policy of the civilian government, and if the officers there don't like it they're welcome to resign their commissions.

That should be a clue that you don't know the other half of the story.

There is no legitimate other half. The policy goals of North and his co-conspirators is perfectly clear and perfectly wrong.

By calling him 'evil', you've announced that you have no desire to understand his decisions.

That's a false argument. I understand his decisions. I undertand his motivation. I reject his viewpoint. It's an evil view of the world that overlooks human lives in favor of abstract ideology. That's what fanatics believe in.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

> almost every major government on Earth having an official position stating that it occurred.

The US and Isreal don't seem to think a genocide happened. Word to the wise, it's a good idea to move out of said country before declaring war on it. That said, moving armenian women and children to the syrian desert was a travesty, but by no means a planned measure to eliminate a race of people.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Raenex]

So 50 years from now, it will be fine for Germany to pass a law to outlaw saying Germans massacred Jews in WWII?

The sad thing is that Germany passed the opposite law. You can't legally question the historical accuracy of the Holocaust.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[JazzLad]

That must classify as the stupidest thing I have heard all week. I would say all month but we are only 8 days into March. That makes sense. We're 5 days into the week and only 8 days into the month, so let's say all week since it is more than all month (assuming GMT > +3, it's even sillier here in the US).

Your subsequent comments were not without merit, but since you were kind enough to point out to the GP that his comment was stupid, I felt compelled to recipicate on his behalf.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[canicus]

I would beg to differ with you, even if I wouldn't go about things the same way he did. What makes free speech valuable is that it allows the free interchange of information. People are allowed to say and publish whatever they think is profitable without fear of reprisal. This uninhibited exchange of information, whether technical, artistic, political, or whatever, inevitably generates new ideas and furthers the progress of society.

Copyright, however, is the assertion that someone may own an idea, a sort of artificial monopoly, and use this power to coerce others into using it only on their terms and in the method they prescribe. I say it is artificial, because unlike other monopolies, it can't be enforced without prisons or guns in any natural means, in contrast to regular property. If I say something, or I publish something, or write a song, then the idea may be freely replicated beyond my control. Had I never said anything, then the idea would remain firmly within the confines of my mind, and thus, I would retain total control. Likewise, if I produced a better automobile, then until I sold one to someone else, the property remains in my possession, and the idea firmly locked away in my head. Once I release it, then naturally, I release the idea.

This stands in contrast to material possessions where monopolies such as this are natural. If I own a mine with a rare mineral, and that mine is the sole source of the mineral, then I control the supply of the entire mineral. If I release a quantity of it, then the mineral supply still remains in my possession and cannot be replicated. Nature herself protects this sort of monopoly.

Nor can we say that copyright ownership arises from the natural bent of man. Material property is recognized by every culture. Our oldest distinctly human burials are people buried with their things. Children from an early age fight over whose toy it is. There is, in fact, no real evidence this is unnatural. It is present in all ages and in all cultures. Copyright, on the other hand, was created a few hundred years ago and was far more limited when it was created. It only exists in cultures that borrow the concept from western civilization. It isn't present in children; I've yet to see a toddler say, "She can't say that! Those are my words!" Ancient texts were bandied about and edited rather commonly, and the authors never really demonstrated any concept of ownership over their works beyond, "I didn't say that!" which is natural.

Copyright is a question of free speech then. It is a question of whether people can freely exchange the information they have received without government reciprocation over an unnatural regulation (and private individuals in court is government reciprocation because it could not otherwise exist). It raises the question, "Is it ethical to own and control information?" If you answer in the affirmative, then you have also provided the logical basis for justifying other free speech issues. The "artist's right to receive payment from everyone who uses it," can just as readily be exchanged for the "good of society" or other such good-sounding premises and fully justify censorship in ways that none of our previous states could hope to do: the people in question have no right to use the information.

Now I don't believe the parallels he draws are anywhere near the same level, but core question is the same. The fact that they are two different levels of extremity doesn't change the premises in qustion.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[spun]

I know the other side of the story. I just don't believe it is any justification. Perhaps if you explained why you believe his actions to be justified, rather than simply claiming that I am ignorant, we could have a dialog.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

What about it? Atrocities are committed by ALL ethnic groups. Acts committed by the Kurds don't magically invalidate or justify acts committed by the Turks. All it shows is that the real bad guys are the humans. So it is natural to (since we are humans) kill babies of the other side. Is this your humanity? You don't know the real facts, speculate from thousands miles away. Terrorism is terrorism and can not be seen as natural, either it is 9/11 or Kurdish terrorists.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[phobocast]

I heard lots of stupid things from Turkey, some of them are far more idiotic than this.

First of all, courts and government does not have to agree on a subject in Turkey which is a constutional republic, government must obey the judgement of the high courts. Second, this decision(blocking YouTube) is totally silly by itself. Cencorship is evil and there is no need to an EU argument.

Real reason of this bullshit is that the laws related to net in Turkey are very very outdated. In addition an ordinary turkish judge has little knowledge about the net, and lacks the ability to differentiate YouTube from PornTube!

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[thinklinux2007]

Do you think that, you're making a point by posting your LIES about Turkey? GAL!

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[ak3ldama]

I agree, it was just a joke. I'm posting as AC since you were modded Flamebait and I don't want to take a karma hit just because someone has sand in their vagina.
ak3ldama (554026)

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[ak3ldama]

and i forgot to click post anonymously. doh

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Facts about Armenian 'Genocide':

- Turkey opened all - ALL - Ottoman Empire Governmental archives about that era, including what has happened in World War I and after on. http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/
-- What did Armenia did?

- In the time that Turkey is accused of this event, there is no country called Armenia. And in the Ottoman Empire territories there is no Armenians like 'millions of'

-In that time it was not only Armenians that betrayed the Ottoman Empire in the state of war, World War I.

-What is ASALA?

-Armenian 'Genocide' witnesses: http://ermeni.org/turkce/vkayutyunner.php?tp=ea&ln g=eng

-There is no death penalty in Turkey.

-There is no religion of state. i.e. Turkey is not Muslim as a country, just people live in it are mostly Muslim.


In freedom of speech of Slashdot and USA where I think slashdot is hosted, I would like to add the following:

All PKKists are terrorists and should never be forgiven by law.

There is no place called Kurdistan and never been in history. No country is named so.

I hate the combination of yellow, blue and red on anything.

There is no genocide called Armenian Genocide. A few state's accreditation for it as happened does not constitute the grounds for it has happened in history.

I don't and never will understand why countries other than Armenia and Turkey is bothered on this matter. Is Armenian's so miserable that they need help from other countries in such a politicalized historical situation.

I live in Turkey, Istanbul. And in Kadiköy, there is a mosque, an Armenian church, a Catholic church and a synagogue, all historical, all together, all next to each other, exists and not destroyed or anything like that. (In rihtim if you live there) And this is only one example.

There is nothing as 'you have to praise Atatürk each morning' as said by a PKK terorist (which can be understood from the context) in one of these threads.

Most of his lines are ridiculous since there is no death penalty in Turkey.


America's freedom of speech:(Bush or not I don't care it is America for me)

We should be able to talk freely in everywhere, thus we have invaded Iraq. Just to make speeches there and we think Iran is more in-speakable so it is neeext!

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[illegalcortex]

While I feel that IS a sad thing, I don't really get all that bent out of shape about it. Clearly, this is not a law that will be used to cover up the government or the people's past misdeeds. It's also a stretch to cast it as a law that will be used to silence the governments critics.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Teun]

Dutch is the official language of The Netherlands but if Ethnic Turkish people want to campaign in Dutch elections in Turkish (and they do) nobody is stopping them.
An Ethnic Kurd trying to campaign in Kurdish in Turkey will be in serious trouble.

And when you'd live in the Dutch province of Friesland you can do most if not all your official business in the Friesian language, it does not make you an enemy of the Dutch National Identity or attack the pride of the nation.

Such policies in regard to (minority) language are in place in many EU nations and generally without serious contest.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[thinklinux2007]

You're totally wrong my friend. Kurdish politicians already doing campaign in Kurdish or giving speech in Kurdish. No body says anything to them. Get out from the midnight express !

But my Turkish friend who lives in The Netherlands cannot get education in her mother language.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what gets on most people's nerves about Turkey and the Turkish? The fact that they categorically classify any information about that topic as disinformation and even prosecute anyone who dares to discuss it.

An open western-European society should be prepared to discuss a topic like this, hear the different sides of it, and arrive at a position about it. Preferably one that respects the opinions of all the involved.

Turkey does not appear to be ready for that. Please don't try to negotiate with the EU until you are. Maybe in 10 years, maybe in 50 years, maybe never.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if you have very oldfashioned morals you can think that a country carries this guilt over the generations.

That exactly IS the reason why Turkey should not be allowed to join the EU until this point is rectified.
A country where the current population cannot discuss what their ancestors did a century ago without being prosecuted today has such oldfashioned morals that they don't belong in the EU.

This is not racism. It is about culture. EU countries value today and tomorrow more than bad history and "pride". Turkey clearly does not fit in that picture.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Raenex]

I get bent out of shape about it because it's a huge violation of principle. The government has made it illegal to question a certain aspect of history. It's not just being able to criticize the government that is important.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually think that would be a very good idea. It is not good to expand the originally western-Europe EU all the way into the near east. The cultural difference between the "old" EU countries and countries like Turkey is just too big. And too many countries in the EU makes it unmanagable (although the critical number has already been passed).
Let them form their own union and compete with the EU, USA, etc. That keeps everyone much happier.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[myowntrueself]

How many Americans understand Oliver North's point, that often it is morally correct to break the law?

Every American who lights up a joint.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[RealGrouchy]

Following the coup, Turkey invaded the Northern part of the Ireland to protect the large ethnic Turkish minority

Freud called. He wants his slip back.

- RG>

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Copyright is not the assertion that someone may own an idea.

You cannot copyright an idea.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[RockDoctor]

If you think that the "right" to purchase copyrighted music from another country without copyright laws is a "free speech" issue

While it is debatable whether AllofMP3 was following them correctly, the Russian Federation does have copyright laws.

For certain the RF does have copyright laws.

Equally, for certain, they're not the same laws as implemented in the US (or the UK, or in Outer Mongolia for what little it matters). Whether or not they're compatible with the Berne Convention, I don't know - I have a suspicion that in the early 90s they were not fully Berne-compatible, but that has been fixed over to the satisfaction of the WIPO the last few years.

Whether AllOfMP3 implement the laws properly is an even more separate question. Considering that the famous phrase "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is," was uttered by a lawyer with a straight face, then I suspect that the word 'properly' there would allow enough "wriggle room" to drive a coach and horses through the statement. Plus a couple of Airbuses and a whole fleet of space shuttles.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[killjoe]

I think the US would bomb the shit out of them before letting them "unionize". Those countries have a lot of oil and they control one of the most crucial waterways in the world.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Ilgaz]

As a turkish person, I am sick and tired of this "EU stick" showing up everywhere. EU doesn't live 100 years ahead with some utopic super human rights. Recent studies show I am not minority.

For the issue? Well, I think court/legal system got no guideline about browsing Youtube to see if the video is banned/removed or not. The fix? Switch to OpenDNS.com DNS settings as every sane people do since "DNS blocking" invented as a quick fix for banning the hell out of internet WORLDWIDE.

It is stupid but using the issue to hit Turkey is more stupid. Some may bring up the issues in Denmark for instance. It is cheap though...

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[nietsch]

That is backtracking. First they don't belong because of the armenian genocide, then it's because they have some nationalist laws. Mind you, I don't agree with those at all, but using that as an argument to block entry to an economic union is nonsense.
And saying that your culture is better than another is bordering on racism indeed. Did you want to say that there is no nationalism in the current EU?

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[o'reor]

+ 1, beautiful :-)

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[canicus]

Then what is it? It certainly isn't owning a piece of paper or a CD. Copyright refers to control and ownership over something non-material. If that doesn't refer to ideas, then pray tell, what category would we file the abstractions of songs, books, etc. under? Spirit?

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[streetsideguitarman]

itll be interesting once things reach saturation.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Richard Steiner]

I don't recall ever seeing a license bundled with or included as a part of a music LP, tape, or CD that I've purchased, and I have quite a few of all of the above...

A simply copyright is not a license.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Das Modell]

And again if u want to write something about a country try to read some books about it and do some research ... and not everything u read on the net is true :P

Not everything you read in a book is true.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Das Modell]

Only if you have very oldfashioned morals you can think that a country (or people as turkey is not the ottoman empire) carries this guilt over the generations.

So they don't carry guilt over generations, but they can keep denying the genocide over generations? If they want to keep denying it after so many years, I don't see why they can't still be held accountable for it. It works both ways.

Its mostly racism that motivates these 'Turkey not in EU' plebs.

It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with race (it's funny how you guys always turn everything into a race issue), and everything to do with the unwillingness of accepting an Islamic and utterly non-European country into the EU.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Das Modell]

And saying that your culture is better than another is bordering on racism indeed.

Ah, so you're saying that culture is racial. That is, the way people behave is directly related to their race, and is a biological property? Isn't that what's usually called racism? Or... how does this work, exactly? Isn't it the same thing if I say that black people are biologically less intelligent than white people? Or is that "wrong?"

Also, cultures are not equal. Some cultures are better than others, just like some cars, display adapters or electric shavers are better than others. If we accept that all cultures are equal, then a culture of racism and xenophobia is as good as any other culture, which of course means that racism is acceptable, contrary to what you just said. Oh dear.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Das Modell]

It isn't present in children; I've yet to see a toddler say, "She can't say that! Those are my words!"

So because copyright isn't biologically ingrained into people, it must not make sense? Not even democracy, gender equality or human rights are biological. They're strictly cultural.

Ancient texts were bandied about and edited rather commonly, and the authors never really demonstrated any concept of ownership over their works beyond, "I didn't say that!" which is natural.

That doesn't prove anything. I could argue that we should keep slaves because in ancient societies they also kept slaves.

It raises the question, "Is it ethical to own and control information?" If you answer in the affirmative, then you have also provided the logical basis for justifying other free speech issues.

Except copyright has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Making it illegal to pirate PC games hardly impacts freedom of speech.

I'd like to know just how exactly people are supposed to publish books, music, movies and video games if it's just "information" that everyone should share freely? Are you willing to invest millions of dollars into a game and get nothing in return? Or are you under the impression that things like video games just grow on trees, as if by magic?

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[geoffspear]

That's because you don't need a license to listen to the music at home; there's nothing like a EULA to include with the CD itself. You do need a license to distribute copies of music, and the record companies have licensing deals with legitimate distributors. AllOfMP3 doesn't have such a license, and it would take someone with a lot more knowledge of Russian law than I have to tell you if what they're doing is legal or simply illegal and not enforced. Russia's not exactly known for effectively and consistently enforcing its laws these days

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Richard Steiner]

Okay. That makes more sense. Thanks...

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[nietsch]

Ah, I see you found your supply of straw to make your men. Please do not put my name on them before you set them alight?
Indeed prejudice based on race is not the same as prejudice based on culture, hence the "borders on" instead of "is". But does the average Werner make this distinction when he says he hates Turks? In fact you are making this definition very narrow so you can justify your own racism/xenophobia. Besides, you only know your own culture, which is not the same in every european country. In my country for instance, prominent racist & xenophobic populists are routinely shot and we are very proud of it. Which leads me to wish you to meet your Volkert soon.
So while you think that you know Turkish culture good enough to judge that they are too different from EU culture, you don't know much about the other cultures in the EU. That makes your judgement about other cultures worth nothing.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Das Modell]

so you can justify your own racism/xenophobia

Oh, do explain how I'm a racist or xenophobe. Please, I'd love to hear this (just so you know, 99% of the people who accuse me of racism or xenophobia are unable to define those terms or explain how they apply to me, but I'm sure you're different).

Besides, you only know your own culture, which is not the same in every european country.

What does this have to do with anything, and why do you assume that I only know my culture?

In my country for instance, prominent racist & xenophobic populists are routinely shot and we are very proud of it.

Define racism and xenophobia.

So while you think that you know Turkish culture good enough to judge that they are too different from EU culture, you don't know much about the other cultures in the EU. That makes your judgement about other cultures worth nothing.

Even if we suppose that's true, it's very illogical. Just because I don't know much about other EU cultures doesn't mean that I'm somehow incapable of knowing about cultures outside the EU.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[ozguraxe]

Friends, I am a long time reader first time poster on /. I have always been too lazy to get an account but I think it's high time that I started participating :)

I will keep my comment and clarification short, to the point, and truthfully honest. First off, I am a Turkish citizen who has lived in the US for a long time, but now I have returned to my homeland. I see talk about Armenian "genocide" in many places and most of the time all of us who know what is actually going on (both Turks & Armenians) have to just get angry at the ignorance of it all and always left without anything to do because our voices are not heard. I would like to post a few key points that our fellow slashdot poster the Anonymous Coward has left out.

  - The genocide theory and the trailing propaganda against my nation has been brought forth and been actively supported by the Armenian government. The Turkish government suggested that the two countries form an unbiased panel of historians to research and find out the details and facts. The idea was swiftly shot down. It is not in the interest of the these guys who do have a voice, for the truth to be found. For it is likely that the killings happened because of circumstantial reasons (ie. chaos of war), and the "evil" Turks will be cleansed of what they claim our forefathers had done.

  - Kurds are another group of people who live side by side in Turkey, and are considered Turks (Turkish citizens) themselves. We have had a famous Kurdish prime minister (Turgut Özal). Has the US had a black/hispanic/woman president? (the same can be asked of many European governments). We have had a woman prime minister as well.

  - Armenia have killed off and otherwise have caused deaths of many Azerbaijan citizens (these people are ethnically Turks). Would this be considered genocide? Perhaps we should investigate... Or continue to just make ignorant comments and propaganda?

  - We are a country/nation who has had to deal with a lot and I agree that we are struggling to solidify our stand in the world. The people are plagued by turmoil. Besides that, we have little to no voice in the world today. It doesn't help that the peoples that have had so many freedoms for centuries and were only considered Ottomans within the roof of the Ottoman Empire would be working so hard to damage their old brethren. To what cause? Vengeance? I do not know.

Re:Headache for EU negotiators

[Anonymous Coward]

Who says it is not discussed?

As the thread is about the DNS block ordered by a judge of youtube.com which happened in the first place because some a**hole mistook the idea of freedom of speech as the right to insult someone I thought our topic was about the DNS block ordered by a judge.

As for the Armenians, or the Kurds, or the Turks, or the Laz, or the Jews, or the other 58 different groups living in my country we live in peace. What we have in our minds is the daily hassles we go through to get our lives better.

For the so called Armenian genocide, all I'd like to say is this is not the thread for it. But as someone took the pleasure to throw in some accusations off the air this gives me, a Turkish national the right to at least say a few words. If you want to stick to the judge order and DNS block please skip to the next msg.

Since I have said Turkish national, or because I have taken a view different from yours, you will name me as "dog", or "Turk", or whatever. I will not give you the satisfaction to really know who I am, because I am a Turkish national and that is that and I have already told you twice now.

The bottom line is I don't care.

Armenia? I don't care. But if your try like you have before and will sure try again, to take away my land, I will cut your throat but that will be war and you will have started it.

If you want to do trade and prosper together, we will do trade and prosper together.

If you want to live on this land you are welcome to do it. But you will have to do it under my country, which happens to be named Turkiye.

And you will learn that this country is way better than you have been led to believe. Better than yours I am sure.

Your choice.

We are in peace. But you are not. Come to us, and live it through.

Sincerely yours.

A link1: http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?ene wsid=66262
A link2: http://www.turquieeuropeenne.org/

If you think talking about Atatürk is bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think talking about Atatürk is bad in Turkey, try talking about the Armenian genocide.

Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[AKAImBatman]

Edit your hosts file to point to 208.65.153.253 or 208.65.153.251. Here are the instructions for each OS:

# Unix/Linux/OS X

1. 'su'
2. 'echo "208.65.153.253 www.youtube.com" >> /etc/hosts'

# Windows

1. Start > Run > 'cmd'
2. 'echo 208.65.153.253 www.youtube.com >> c:\Windows\System32\Drivers\etc\hosts'

You may need to edit your hosts file with a text editor to ensure that it was properly edited. On Windows in particular, there may not be a line break added in. Just open the file, find the "208.", position the cursor in front of the "208." and press enter. Save the file.

There. All done.

As you can see, the Turkish government's solution is incredibly sophiticated and difficult to circumvent. :-/

Here's an actual story on the issue.

The long and short of it is that Turkey found the video "insulting" and hasn't even decided yet if the video is legally "wrong". So much for being a "democratic, secular, unitary, constitutional republic". (Taken from Wikipedia.)

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[WinterSolstice]

Actually on OSX:

sudo bash
echo "208.65.153.253 www.youtube.com" >> /etc/hosts

(can't just su on OSX usually - root has no password)

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[AKAImBatman]

Good point. I was in a bit of a hurry and didn't notice that little snafu. Thanks for the update. :)

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Moby Cock]

Anything that "insults" Turkishness is illegal in Turkey. It makes for some very odd behaviour. For example, their most famour novelist was recently tried in the courts because he admitted (while in SwitzerlandO) that he believed that Turkey played a role in the Armenian Genocide. Participation in genocide is construed as insulting Turkishness and thus prosecutable. My friend married a Turkish woman and she is the most nationalistic person I've ever known. She will not tolerate any jokes or snide comments about Turkey.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[geoffspear]

"sudo -s" is more friendly to people who use a real shell and want to continue using it as root.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[zappepcs]

You have the right idea, and soon Turkey will be another example of why and how governments can no longer censor information from the people. Clearly if you funnel misinformation to the people, similar effects can be achieved (See the U.S.A) but censoring information does not work. For all that the Chinese government has done, its people are not stupid. All attempts to censor information will eventually work themselves back around to bite the censor.

That might sound optimistic, but it is still true. The sci-fi surrealism of knowing that many young Chinese children don't recognize a picture of 'tank man' is haunting, but because this problem exists, they will find out eventually, and the realization that it was censored will cause a backlash.

As for Turkey, they have been on the edge of acceptance for a long time. This won't help them, and how they handle it will make a huge difference to the country's bottom line, IMO.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[geoffspear]

My friend married a Turkish woman and she is the most nationalistic person I've ever known. She will not tolerate any jokes or snide comments about Turkey.

That's not nationalism, it's just good sense. She knows that if she returns to Turkey after tolerating jokes or snide comments in another country, she could be imprisoned for life for toleration.

I believe the penalty for using the letters q, w, and x has been liberalized and no longer calls for immediate execution.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

> I believe the penalty for using the letters q, w, and x has been liberalized and no longer calls for immediate execution.

That sounds pretty progressive. They're actually starting to crack down on honor killings too: you can get up to a week in prison for that now.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

Turkey has a few cultural and political problems that it needs to overcome in order to join the EU. One of the more pressing issues is its denial of the Assyrian, Armenian, and Greek genocide it perpetrated during WWI.

Anyone who discusses the above issue is immediately deemed as insulting "Turkishness" and inciting hatred. Turkey's reply to this insulting behavior is to prosecute Orhan Pamuk and murdering Hrat Dink.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[myth24601]

> I believe the penalty for using the letters q, w, and x has been liberalized and no longer calls for immediate execution.

That sounds pretty progressive. They're actually starting to crack down on honor killings too: you can get up to a week in prison for that now.

Yeah but it is one of those country club prisons like the white collar criminals get sent to.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[phasm42]

She will not tolerate any jokes or snide comments about Turkey.

Funny that, coming from a country we call Turkey.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[jeremyp]

Actually on OS X

sudo echo "208.65.153.253 www.youtube.com" >> /etc/hosts

or what I do

sudo vi /etc/hosts
<password>
:$
o208.65.153.253 www.youtube.com<esc>:wq

Well, that's a lie actually, what I normally do is

vi /etc/hosts
:$
o208.65.153.253 www.youtube.com<esc>:wq
:q!
sudo vi /etc/hosts
<password>
:$
o208.65.153.253 www.youtube.com<esc>:wq

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

> Actually on OS X
>
> sudo echo "208.65.153.253 www.youtube.com" >> /etc/hosts

Running echo as root is of no use when Bash tries to redirect without root permissions.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Bogtha]

She will not tolerate any jokes or snide comments about Turkey.

I bet she's no fun at Christmas.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[h2g2bob]

Simpler:

http://youtube.com.nyud.net:8080/

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[maxwell demon]

Which of course raises the question if it is possible to only do the redirection as root (after all, there's no reason why echo itself has to run as root).

No, I don't consider echo to be a security risk. It's just curiosity.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[inviolet]

Anything that "insults" Turkishness is illegal in Turkey. It makes for some very odd behaviour. For example, their most famour novelist was recently tried in the courts because he admitted (while in SwitzerlandO) that he believed that Turkey played a role in the Armenian Genocide. Participation in genocide is construed as insulting Turkishness and thus prosecutable. My friend married a Turkish woman and she is the most nationalistic person I've ever known. She will not tolerate any jokes or snide comments about Turkey.

How amusing. And how very revealing. Hypersensitivity is always a billboard advertising low self-esteem.

And considering the kinds of ideological torsion they live with, and the power-grabbing inhumanity they show their minorities (armenians, kurds, etc.), it's no wonder they're hypersensitive. To be a Turk is to walk around in a state of perpetual cognitive dissonance.

To my eye, America has the opposite problem: we enjoy the ability to absorb insults, and even to make fun of ourselves, because we are actually a bit overconfident in the quality of our culture and the consistency of our ideology. (Even so, we at least have the colossal distinction of being the first country on Earth to have the power to militarily conquer the world who did not proceed to do so.)

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[afeeney]

Mustafa Kemal Attaturk (literally, "Father of Turkey") is revered deeply in Turkey. On the anniversary and time of his death, everything stops for a minute of observance. Insulting him is the equivalent of insulting the king or royal family in Thailand, not only a legal offense but a very deep insult.

He's credited with the rebirth of Turkey as a viable state after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and with making it a thoroughly secular political system within a deeply Muslim society.

When I was last in Istanbul, I was chatting with a Turkish gentleman who hypothesized that Turkey is so sensitive to "insulting Turkishness" because it was such a great empire for so long.

Not that this excuses either this or any other of their attempts of censorship, but it is an interesting background.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

With a name like Turkey I can see why they're sensitive! ...and they wonder why they're not at the forefront of economic development and standard of living?

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[drinkypoo]

You can pipe the output through "sudo tee -a filename" which will both print it to the screen and append it to the file. I think if you pipe it through '( tee -a filename > /dev/null )' then that should pipe it to a subprocess whose output will be sent to the round file (not including errors) but I often screw up shell syntax :)

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

And even less fun at Thanksgiving...

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[WinterSolstice]

While I respect that... would such a person need a step by step guide to alter their hosts file?

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Moby Cock]

Even so, we at least have the colossal distinction of being the first country on Earth to have the power to militarily conquer the world

So...what happened in Iraq?

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[hearingaid]

root usually has no password you say? :)

sudo -s
chpass

Wow, that was hard. Yeah, I do it every time I put an OS X install on. How I hate OS X's install of sudo.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Moby Cock]

I once joked with my friend, as I dropped him and his Turkish wife off at the airport so they could go to visit Turkey, that I expected some stuffing as a gift. She yelled at me and accused me of being a racist.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[inviolet]

So...what happened in Iraq?

Do you understand the difference between the American economy and the economy of the last superpower capable of conquering the world (that is, Rome)?

Our military adventures, be they respectable or not, are not attempts to feed our maw with loot. Our last act of militarized looting was Mexico, and that was over a century ago -- well before we gained the capability of conquering any country we choose.

IMHO, our great cultural advantage is that our dominant religion is liberal. Protestantism has always defended the freedom to choose other religions, and therefore the core freedom of thought. From this derives the rest of our freedoms, and from that our great inventive economic might, and from that our great wealth and comfort, and from that our (historically unprecedented) disinterest in invading our neighbors.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Moby Cock]

we gained the capability of conquering any country we choose.

Horseshit. There are many countries that the US could never conquer. Russia and China come to mind.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Rayonic]

So...what happened in Iraq?

We conquered it, then tried to give it back to "the people". We also didn't close the borders.

Basically, if human rights was not a concern at all, we could have brutally repressed and/or slaughtered everyone in Iraq years ago. Without the use of nukes, even.

The fact that this is not an acceptable option is kinda the parent post's point.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

What didn't happen was that the US tried to conquer Iraq. In that case they would have gassed the major cities, installed administrations, demanded complete obedience, and used sattelites to find insurgent strongholds before carpet bombing them. You can hide from sattelites in the jungle, but not in the desert.

Not conquering something is often trickier than conquering.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[paulmer2003]

Uhhh, how did we conquer Iraq? They have their own government, its not like we annexed it, dumbass. And even if you would like to consider Iraq to be 'conquered' by us, iraq != world.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

We didn't want to kill everyone there.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Grishnakh]

I disagree, especially about China. China may have nukes, but not many, and it should be pretty easy for America to destroy their nuke sites. Conquering the rest of the country after getting past the nuclear problem wouldn't be that difficult: bomb them into submission with more nukes (this would be necessary because they such a large infantry force and population).

Obviously, there wouldn't be much left after we "conquered" them, but you never said that restoring them to a functioning society and economy (rather than a radioactive wasteland) was a requirement. But it's certainly possible for the USA to annihilate them as part of a quest to take control of the rest of the world and eliminate any competition. Luckily, the USA seems to have no interest in that type of activity, only exercising influence in oil-rich areas (which I wish they'd stop).

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

the colossal distinction of being the first country on Earth to have the power to militarily conquer the world who did not proceed to do so.

You make a good point that is sadly going to be lost on many people. I assume you are referring specifically to the atom bomb.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[operagost]

I was Hungary, so I fried Turkey in Greece.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Moby Cock]

If the Chinese economy is flattened, America's goes too. All that wonderful natioanl debt is funded by China and all those wonderful cheap items are made there. America is utterly beholden to China.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[goodben]

A few nitpicks. They don't substantially alter your main point, but hey a day in which you learn something is a day that's not wasted.

> Our military adventures, be they respectable or not, are not attempts to feed our maw with loot. Our last act of militarized looting was
> Mexico, and that was over a century ago -- well before we gained the capability of conquering any country we choose.

All of Spain's remaining non-African colonies in 1898 (Puerto Rico, Cuba, the Phillipines, and Guam). We let Cuba go only because Teddy Rosevelt put his foot down about honoring promises. Hawaii was annexed that same year I believe at the behest of pineapple plantation owners like Dole. Still over a hundred years since the last territorial grab, but some would argue (more or less correctly) that we've installed plenty of puppet governments since then or propped up oppressive dictators who suited our intrests.

> IMHO, our great cultural advantage is that our dominant religion is liberal. Protestantism has always defended the freedom to choose other
> religions, and therefore the core freedom of thought.

Your reasoning on the other hand is patently false. It's true that Protestantism has been this way recently, but certainly not always and it's certainly not an inherent characteristic of Protestantism. Looking at the histories of Germany and England in the 17th century should give you a clue about this. Lutherans in nothern Germany in the 1600s didn't give Catholics or even Calvinists freedom of religion. It's even still illegal in the UK for a non-Anglican to inherit the throne. In what would become the US, Rhode Island was founded because the Puritans in Massachusetts wouldn't allow freedom of religion. In the 1800s you have the Extermination Order in Missouri and the lynching of Joseph Smith.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Grishnakh]

Economically, you're correct of course. I was just speaking militarily.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[mdozturk]

Please do not generalize based on the behavior of one person. I can tolarate jokes about Turkey all the time ... as long as it isn't the joke relating the name of the country to the bird. I've been hearing that since elementary school and it is not funny.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[ball-lightning]

What happened in Iraq is the same thing that happened in Vietnam. A lack of popular (and consequently government) support is causing us to make fools of ourselves.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[thinklinux2007]

In Switzerland you cannot even deny Armenian Genocide !!!
Last year the president of Turkish Historical Society get arrested in Switzerland while talking in a conference about Armenian Genocide.
IS THIS THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH ?

Check this page out, http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index .html/

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

Even so, we at least have the colossal distinction of being the first country on Earth to have the power to militarily conquer the world who did not proceed to do so. Except... you don't, and haven't. Ever.

The U.S. cannot win a present day war against the rest of the world. It doesn't matter how much you suspend reason and ignore facts, you would not win. Nor has there ever been a time in the past in which the United States, by itself, was in a position in which they could conquer the entire planet.

The Numbers [Active troops only]:
China: 2,255,000
India: 1,325,000
North Korea: 1,106,000
Russia: 1,037,000
South Korea: 687,000
The other 159 Countries: 12,260,750

Total: 18,670,750
United States [Active, Reserve, and Paramilitary]: 2,685,713

Estimated nuclear weapons:

The World: 16,672
The United States: 9,960

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ number_of_active_troops
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_nations

I do realize that the US Army is one of the most advanced in the world, but the top 5 contenders have almost equal training and equipment. China alone nearly outnumbers, with their active force, the total active, reserve, and paramilitary forces of the US.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Moby Cock]

it is not funny

I respectfully diasgree. It is very funny.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

(Even so, we at least have the colossal distinction of being the first country on Earth to have the power to militarily conquer the world who did not proceed to do so.)

Bullcrap. The Americans are not able and were not able to conquer Russia. Just as Hitler and Napoleon weren't able to conquer Russia. The Americans were just smart enough not to try, unlike aforementioned idiots. On the other hand, we should be glad they both did try, it was their undoing. Oh, and I'd like to see you conquer China too, you weren't even able to conquer and hold a small Chinese vazal state known as Vietnam.

You should have thought bit harder, you yourself wrote after all:

To my eye, America has the opposite problem: we enjoy the ability to absorb insults, and even to make fun of ourselves, because we are actually a bit overconfident in the quality of our culture and the consistency of our ideology.

Quite, and I'd like to add "military might" to the list.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[seyyah]

I tried both http://208.65.153.251/ and http://208.65.153.253/, but neither are working. I guess they've blocked these two as well ...

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[inviolet]

Horseshit. There are many countries that the US could never conquer. Russia and China come to mind.

Only recently has China become a significant military power. You'll recall that we defended them during WWII and it was still a close call, even against overstretched Japan.

As for Russia, for a while they gave us a run for our money, but the prospect of the stealth fighter broke their will. And now they're a third-rate power of no consequence beyond their petroleum and their nuclear stockpile.

History has afforded us opportunities to loot both. And we, unlike every superpower in history before us, didn't.

I'm not crediting our restraint with some special Puritan virtue. I rather think it's a natural consequence of being free and technological. Freedom and technology make it more selfishly profitable to trade than to conquer.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[atamyrat]

http://tmolympiad.org/projects/youtube.bat

@echo off
echo USE YOUR OWN RISK
pause
copy %SystemRoot%\System32\Drivers\etc\hosts %SystemRoot%\System32\Drivers\etc\hosts_backup
echo 208.65.153.253 www.youtube.com >> %SystemRoot%\System32\Drivers\etc\hosts

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

So when Turkey figures this out and blocks access to the ip address, I want to offer Turks a proxy alternative (eg Psiphone).

I'm running CGIProxy 2.0.1 and noticed YouTube shows up fine except for the video. Is this a "feature" of the Flash format, or a bug with cgi-proxy?

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Moby Cock]

Unfounded conceit, sir.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[Anonymous Coward]

Who would expect popular support for people as stupid as your president (and government)?

If his IQ had been above 80 he would have recognized a disaster before he entered it. As the rest of the world did.

He also has to come up with some better reasons to conquer countries. Not abiding to UN sanctions does not cut it. Especially when he is supporting (rather than conquering) another country that does the same thing all the time.

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[thinklinux2007]

You destroyed Iraq, killed hundreds of babies...stole the oil, raped them, gave guns&bombs to terrorist groups to destroy themselves...
do you want me to continue?

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[lahi]

Oh you Unix-wannabees!

sudo sh -c 'echo foobar >/root/file'

-Lasse

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[lahi]

Interesting. Must have been a challenge to do math before that.

-Lasse

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[drinkypoo]

Sorry, but I come from the lazy school. If I want to do something more than once, I do it in perl. Then I don't have to remember the syntax to the shell, awk, and sed all at the same time. I just have to hold shift a lot, while I press number keys :)

Re:Super-Secret Uber Hacking Thing-a-ma-whatsit

[lahi]

That's OK, I was a student at the lazy school too. Dropped out because of lazyness and impatience. The idea of firing up an editor to write a perl script, which always seems to evolve various bells and whistles, yet still never does quite what I want the next time, and therefore needs to be maintained, version controlled, and documented, when I even have problems remembering what I _called_ the bloody thing, just seemed too much work. Instead I learned most of the generally useful features of various tools (ksh, grep, sed, ex, awk, but also Perl) and now simply rely on fast typing to combine them as needed. I guess you could say my programs' names are simply their code spelled out. My shell windows are 132 characters wide, and I occasionally write commands longer than that.

(When I noted there was a reply, I "feared" it would be someone flaming me for not answering the question of doing the echo as an unprivileged user. In anticipation of that flame, here's how:
echo "foobar"|sudo sh -c 'cat >/root/file')

-Lasse

How inconvenient

[NinjaTariq]

... That they have to go to http://208.65.153.251/ or edit their hosts file to do it.

From the office of the Minister of Turkish Justice

[MrBulwark]

[Access to this comment has been suspended in accordance with decision no: 2007/384 dated 06.03.2007 of Istanbul First Criminal Peace Court. Move along, there is nothing to see here.]

censorship doesn't work

[swschrad]

just ask the leaders of the soviet union.

Re:censorship doesn't work

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia YouTube censors you!

Youtube? Banned?

[Anonymous Coward]

They must have caught wind of this blasphemy! Take that infidels! (youtube)

Re:Youtube? Banned?

[Anonymous Coward]

This video has been removed due to terms of use violation.

This is very European of them.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is actually quite in line with what many nations in the EU would do. I mean, just yesterday we had a story posted to Slashdot about France apparently outlawing the filming of violence. Leading EU member nations like Germany, France and Austria also have rather draconian "hate speech" legislation. Censorship is a European way of life. Most Europeans like to think that they're free to speak their mind, but in reality that's not the case.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Da Fokka]

Don't be ridiculous. Hate speechs laws in (some) EU countries might be harsher than in the US, but these laws are not in the same league as what Turkey is pulling off here. And when critisizing free speech in Europe, you might want to keep in mind cases like The Fishman Affidavit, in which the Dutch supreme court ruled that the right of the public to know about the practises of Scientology superceded the intellectual property of Scientology of their teachings.

Re:This is very European of them.

[giorgiofr]

Nonsense. My friggin constitution states I'll go to jail if I praise the wrong political party. I think this is even worse than what Turkey is doing.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Da Fokka]

I don't know which constitution you are referring but assuming you are European there are two possibilities:
  1. You live in Belarus.
  2. You live in one of those countries where racist parties could be outlawed.

Although I don't believe that outlawing *any* opinion is a good idea, by no means is that worse than Turkey, where someone was convicted to a jail sentence when he referred to terrorist/freedom fighter(*) Ocalan as 'Mr. Ocalan'.

(*) Depends on whom you ask.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Skunkhead]

My friggin constitution states I'll go to jail if I praise the wrong political party. Well, if you refer to praising parties which have their roots in that one party committing the prime example of genocide, then yes, i think you should go to jail. Comparing censorship with the defense mechanisms to ensure that stuff like that never happens is a bit daft, even if these measures result in censorship. Illegalizing denial of the holocaust is different issue than denying access to lonelygirl15s videoblog.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Anonymous Coward]

* He was the leader of a terrorist group which is in the Terrorist Groups Lists of most countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_org anisations/. Therefore it is not an issue of whom you ask.

Re:This is very European of them.

[MisterBuggie]

No, not outlawing filming violence. It's a specific type of crime that you can't film, it's physical attacks on a person, basically beating someone up. And it's perfectly legal to film and publish if you're a journalist or if it's for legal evidence. So basically it's just illegal to film someone beating someone else up if your only going to ridicule them on YouTube.

Whereas I agree specific cases can be open to interpretation, the law is *very* different from what the english speaking web is making of it. Try reading it (look at my previous comments for a translation of the law itself...)

Re:This is very European of them.

[Teun]

As long as his people have no free nation of themselves it will stay an issue.

Just as much as there is still no consensus in the US about the status of the Southern 'Freedom' fighters of the Civil War.

The Issue On Topic is that Present Day Turkey is still so unsure about it's reason of existence that it outlaws even the smallest forms of dissent.
The court's ruling that it is a punishable offence for a politician (Ahmet Türk) to refer to the head of the PKK as 'Mister' is a prime example.
A lot of terrorism would melt away if countries like Turkey could get to grips with the fact that people are different, even within their own borders and give them the respect they deserve like allow them to use their own language.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut up and do as you're told, Citizen.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Da Fokka]

Agreed. As long as Turkey does not respect human rights, as far as I'm concerned they have no place in the European Union.

Re:This is very European of them.

[JesseMcDonald]

He was the leader of a terrorist group which is in the Terrorist Groups Lists of most countries. Therefore it is not an issue of whom you ask.

Actually, it still is. You see, no government would ever call any organization "freedom fighters" for the simple reason that such groups are always opposed to the particular government in power; ergo their presence on the "Terrorist Group Lists" published exclusively by such governments. If you were to ask people outside of government, however, you would probably tend to get a mixture of responses. At the very least I doubt many such organizations think of themselves as purely terrorist groups.

The difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" is entirely a matter of perspective.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Censorship is a European way of life."

Feeling better now? Had some education lately?

Re:This is very European of them.

[loganrapp]

But how will they know what happens to Bree and Daniel?!

Oh, that Jonas. So dreamy.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not logical to ask to people if a group is terrorist or not. Hehe in that case China will always beat the world on decisions with 1.5 billion population. Can you ask people if 9/11 is a terrorist attack or not, even the responsible people claims to be "freedom fighters", it does not make it a justifiable action? I don't think so. And please do not talk about human rights in EU, without mentioning about the actions of most EU members in Africa, and East Europe.

Re:This is very European of them.

[dinther]

Just because something is worse somewhere else doesn't make the less bad any good. You are maintaining a slippery slope. People say this all the time. "Nah, this new law isn't so bad look how bad people have it over there?" in the mean time we repeat this step several 1000 times and suddenly you wake up in a totalitarian state called "Europe" and wonder what happened. I am glad I got out of that one 16 years ago.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Da Fokka]

[quote]Just because something is worse somewhere else doesn't make the less bad any good. [/quote]
Be that as it may, GP compared Europe to a dictatorship because of hate speech laws. And although these hate speech laws might be an impediment to absolute free speech, calling Europe a dictatorship because of them simply makes no sense.

Re:This is very European of them.

[dinther]

Then maybe you are not bright enough to see the sense. Many people are more concerned about their kids and mortgage and fail to see the ever tightening net that our own society is spinning around ourselves. It is not because they=us want the power. All of this stuff probably comes forth out of good will but has on the long term the reverse effect. Maybe looking at Turkey or hunger in Africa or terrorists in "somewhere" makes it easier not to look at the mess growing at our own doorstep.

We hand-over our freedoms on a silver platter in the name of security, morality and sadly religion as well in our ever ongoing stride to make our world perfect. Well guess what! It ain't perfect and never will be but the moral crap we have been spinning over the last 2 decades has made the world less perfect where rules take over from morality and common sense. Where governments take over from personal responsibility. People will eventually get fed up with being told how to live their lives but I thought that point was reached several years ago but we are still at it.

Re:This is very European of them.

[anothy]

there is no particular debate over the "status" of Confederate soldiers in the US Civil War. nobody seriously calls them terrorists. despite the modern Bushisms, "terrorist" does not simply mean "person we don't like". the Confederacy did not (on the whole) engage in terrorist activities. they were rebels, in the same way the Colonial Army were rebels; neither were terrorists. one set won, the other lost.

there's plenty of debate still today over whether the Confederacy was justified in their actions (which is a really interesting topic, legally, constitutionally, and morally; shame they conflated the issue with slavery, which is such a despicable practice), but not about their "status" in your terms.

Re:This is very European of them.

[anothy]

not entirely so, no. while the distinction is certainly fuzzy, "terrorist" is about tactics, not which side you're on. don't let the NeoCon perversion of the word to mean "someone we don't like" take over the language. Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. were certainly revolutionary; one could probably argue that they were freedom fighters. it would be laughable to suggest either was a terrorist.

Re:This is very European of them.

[senior.ee]

You mean like a legislation that passed in the French Parliament back in October 2006 that made it a crime punishable by fines and jail to write anything contrary to the "so-called Armenian Genocide"? I don't remember if the law actually passed the higher house.

That's gotta be a great European thing todo...

Disclaimer, I'm a Turkish-American citizen. And while I may not agree with a whole lot of things that either government does at times, believe me, Turkey is not that much worse when it comes to freedom of speech than any other "western" country. How soon do we forget the guy who didn't get allowed to board a plane in Australia when he had a t-shirt saying "Bush is the #1 terrorist" Is that free speech? Where do we draw the line?

For anyone that thinks Turkey is a non-western nation that doesn't belong in the EU, please goto Turkey, vacation there, you will come back with a much different prospective. The EU does not want Turkey to be a member and is just making demand after demand trying to stall the entrance talks. Most of the stuff they're asking for is downright ridiculous. Majority of people in Turks no longer want to be in the EU as they see they're not welcome there.

Re:This is very European of them.

[phobocast]

A lot of terorism would melt away if US and other oil and natural gas hungry countries stop wageging wars in Middle East and other resourcefull areas.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do we draw the line?

There is no line when it comes to free speech. Free speech is not continuous. It's discrete. Either you have freedom of speech, or you do not. If there is even the slightest thing that you cannot say, that means that you do not have free speech.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Da Fokka]

We hand-over our freedoms on a silver platter in the name of security, morality and sadly religion as well in our ever ongoing stride to make our world perfect. Apparently you think I am one of these people. I sincerely believe I'm not. Just because I believe that there are some (rare) circumstances where it's OK to curb free speech does not mean that I'd approve of every inhibition of free speech. And the fact that I believe that Europe is more free than Turkey does not mean that I am not at all critical of Europe.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Da Fokka]

For anyone that thinks Turkey is a non-western nation that doesn't belong in the EU, please goto Turkey, vacation there, you will come back with a much different prospective. The EU does not want Turkey to be a member and is just making demand after demand trying to stall the entrance talks. I have been to Turkey twice and I think it's a lovely country. Furthermore, in principle I'm in favor of Turkey joining the EU. However, there still are some human rights issues. Turkey is at best reluctant to acknowledge Cyprus (an EU member). The guy not being allowed to board the plane is downright stupid but it's nothing compared to people going to jail for being critical of Kemal Ataturk. Kurds are still being oppressed.

Turkey is not the only country which is being asked to reform to join the EU. The same was true for Greece and Spain and the changed for the better. Concerns about human rights violations are not ridiculous.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or at least use equal terms against different countries.
It does not help to start a war against a country "because it does not comply with UN sanctions" while at the same time helping another country that never obeys any UN sanction, even speaking veto against any new sanctions.

Re:This is very European of them.

[rifter]

there is no particular debate over the "status" of Confederate soldiers in the US Civil War. nobody seriously calls them terrorists. despite the modern Bushisms, "terrorist" does not simply mean "person we don't like". the Confederacy did not (on the whole) engage in terrorist activities. they were rebels, in the same way the Colonial Army were rebels; neither were terrorists. one set won, the other lost.

You're right. They were "unlawful combatants." :D.

Actually, some of the people fighting on both sides fit the definition of that term proferred in recent legislation in that they were irregular fighters without the established uniform. In some cases they wore modified uniforms, but in other cases they wore civilian clothes or something completely different. And of course there were terrorists, saboteurs and spies working for both sides, with varying levels of government support depending on the historian you ask.

there's plenty of debate still today over whether the Confederacy was justified in their actions (which is a really interesting topic, legally, constitutionally, and morally; shame they conflated the issue with slavery, which is such a despicable practice), but not about their "status" in your terms.

I think the issue of slavery was used intentionally for propaganda purposes by both sides. As you imply there were many reasons for the war as there are for all wars, the slavery issue was the most politically charged, easiest to understand, and most importantly most closely defines which states participated on what side. It's all well and good for merchants to get all hot and bothered about tariffs, and there were plenty of people upset with election outcomes and doing the math when it came to representation in Congress, but slavery is a no-brainer. In the South, I think it was politically expedient to hold on to slavery. The richest landowners would have owned slaves and there were serious economic and political repercussions from what Northern politicians were proposing. The possibility that Southern states might lose representation if slaves were not counted or money if slaves had to be paid was real, as well as the realization that the industrialized North would benefit at the agrarian South's expense from proposed policies on slavery and tariffs.

Lincoln clearly believed in slavery reform, and ultimately came to the conclusion of abolition if he had not before, but it was clearly helpful to the cause to give people a moral basis for the war in terms they could understand. Again, it's one thing to understand that the United States is stronger united than divided and that Europeans who were agitating to divide us (an often ignored point) were not our friends, but the vision of human beings doomed to torture and bondage is a graphic reminder, and I am sure this is the kind of picture Reagan and Bush are thinking of when they remind us of the moral cost of inaction in the face of certain human depredations. In any case giving people a unifying philosophy (we are dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal, but they think it is right to own people and subject them to degradation and bondage for their own benefit and sadistic pleasure) was helpful for the North in restoring the Union, and it could not have hurt that they were then able to use former slaves in their army as well as the immigrants who were pouring mostly into the North.

In any case it is an interesting topic for a number of reasons. I think it is interesting, too, that we still have not finished reunifying this country after over 140 years, and may never erase the distinction between North and South any more than we can between East and West, or between the coasts and the middle. One does wonder what that means for countries like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

Re:This is very European of them.

[rifter]

A lot of terorism would melt away if US and other oil and natural gas hungry countries stop wageging wars in Middle East and other resourcefull areas.

Wars have been fought in the Middle East for perhaps 100,000 years. At least within the context of the much smaller time period recorded by history, the wars have been about access and resources. It's been about access to land, spices, holy sites, oil, and a few other things. In fact to a lesser extent oil was a factor in ancient warfare there as well since naptha was a much-sought-after commodity and it could be found there.

In any case, wars will continue as long as the Middle East is between us and what we want, or has something we want that we feel other people are an obstacle to our access. This can go anywhere from simple refusal to trade or instability leading to the blockage of trade, to "unfair" prices. The "we" in that sentence is as variable as the "they," but the simple fact of the matter is that geography, history, and geology have come together to make the Middle East the most volatile region on Earth. It may even be the original source of the idea of war, and certainly is the stage for the earliest recorded wars in the sense in which we know them. War will never end, and the problem of peacably resolving human conflict cannot be said to have been itself resolved, until these things are accomplished in the Middle East.

There are some people who think that when Europe and the US no longer require fossil fuels from the Middle East they can safely ignore it. After all, we don't necessarily need to use overland trade routes which involve these countries anymore. I would submit that the problem may not be so easily laid to rest as it would seem that ignoring the Middle East and allowing countries there to lag behind the entire rest of the world including other third-world nations in terms of technology, economy, civilization, education, etc has already cost us and is ultimately the root of the problem which has led us here. It's not a problem of intervening so much as intervening in the wrong way (setting up oppressive governments that discriminate against the most predominant religion, for instance). If we continue to ignore the plight of people who are desperately begging for relief from their suffering they will continue to feel the need to get our attention, and, failing that, inflict a little suffering on us. It's not a question of whether they are right (they aren't) in their tactics, it is a question of whether we are right in allowing the problems there to ocntinue unabated.

Re:This is very European of them.

[rifter]

[quote]Just because something is worse somewhere else doesn't make the less bad any good. [/quote]

Be that as it may, GP compared Europe to a dictatorship because of hate speech laws. And although these hate speech laws might be an impediment to absolute free speech, calling Europe a dictatorship because of them simply makes no sense.

No one compared Europe to a dictatorship. Turkey is a parliamentary democracy in which some bad policy decisions have been made as well as some especially draconian laws. No one called Europe a dictatorship, either. A dictatorship has one ruler who dictates all the decisions and laws. We haven't had that in Europe for awhile, but I'll give you a few more years to get there from the EU. In any case, the question of whether a nation or area has a dictator or not has little to do with whether its laws/actions are unfair, onereous, draconian, or otherwise a plain violation of basic human rights. The United States is a democracy and we seem to do pretty well on that count. The first president of the US had to put down a couple of rebellions fueled by unfair tax laws and land practices and the second president wiped his ass with the First Amendment and suspended habeus corpus. That does not make either a dictator but at least in the second case it was a pretty bad thing to do and a blatant abuse of power/the system.

Part of the reason the US Constitution is designed the way it is is to avoid the "tyranny of the majority" where the majority will pass legislation designed specifically to oppress the minority. Human nature and history shows that this will tend to happen, and when safeguards are ignored (as they have been recently) it will happen in any case, but at least the idea is there. Europe is composed of democratic nations as well, but it would seem they don't even support some of the basic concepts of liberty that the US has. Even the Christian Coalition would, we can only hope, be appalled by the fact that tithes are compulsary in many European nations and collected by the government. The previously mentioned laws violate the entire concept of free speech. The US needs to fix this as well, but it's basically Freedom 101 that once you have decided there are certain ideas that are illegal to even discuss you can no longer claim to have freedom of speech. And no, if your constitution says, as it does in Canada, that it is alright for the government to restrict speech as long as the restrictions make sense, it's not protecting free speech. Unfortunately even though the US constitution is absolute on this point (Congress shall make NO LAW) our enforcement of such freedom seems to be as if our constitution was like Canada's. So maybe they are just more honest about it.

It is a bad idea to restrict the free flow of ideas, even bad ones. It is important to counter the bad with the good, but unless the bad is expressed it cannot be refuted. I thought it was a bad idea that Ahmadinejad's holocaust denier group were denied access to Auschwitz and other sites. I think they should have been treated exactly the opposite. Let them make their claims, and then show them to be false. Prove to the deniers what is obvious to the rest of us. It's difficult to show people who have been taught that the Holocaust was a myth from a young age, in some cases from history books in their classrooms, that it is in fact something which undeniably occurred without engaging them. The evidence is there so they should be made to see it for themsleves. Maybe when people express holocaust denial they should be given tours of the camps and made to see the souveniers and films from the Holocaust until they become physically ill and then made to do it again until the weight of the evidence literally overwhelms them. Maybe people who express racist ideas should be made to interact with people who are different from them until familiarity leads them to understanding the flaws in their reasoning. Some, including me, would argue that this is in fact

Re:This is very European of them.

[rifter]

You mean like a legislation that passed in the French Parliament back in October 2006 that made it a crime punishable by fines and jail to write anything contrary to the "so-called Armenian Genocide"? I don't remember if the law actually passed the higher house.

Turkey has laws that prevent one from discussing the idea that this happened, or even mentioning the Armenians who did die, which is not great either. In the US, as in Europe, the version we learn in contravention to that which the Turks are allowed to be taught, is that there was an Armenian genocide which the Turkish government continues to deny despite the facts. We don't make it illegal to argue the opposite, but it would seem the former argument is favoured by historians even in Turkey where a historian was jailed for daring to suggest that the idea should be discussed.

Nevertheless despite the fact I disagree with you on your denial that Armenians were killed in Turkey (or perhaps, to be fair, that it was a genocidal act) I do agree that it is unfortunate that France has this position with respect to free speech. What is interesting to me is that whereas Turks might say that Americans would have a preexisting bias in this case, it is also not illegal to describe (and even teach the idea in schools) the treatment of Native Americans and even Vietnamese and Japanese as genocide, despite the fact that in the latter case it's a pretty unpopular view and in the former the word genocide is not popularly favoured despite the evidence. As pissed off as people get, calling the wars of the US genocide or denying one happened elsewhere (see the Holocaust) is legal in the US and not in many other places. It's too bad that even democracies tend to allow laws that restrict views that piss off the majority.

Re:This is very European of them.

[dinther]

Sorry man, I am sure you're not but you can't have it both ways. Freedom of speech means just that. The moment you make exceptions is the moment that someone decides what should be the exception and such decision is always biased even if the majority would agree.

If someone say's "The holocaust did not happen" then why is it so bad that this is being said? If it did happen and the person says not then he's wrong. If it didn't happen then he's right. So what. But the law that can put a person behind bars for denying the holocaust is not interested in true of false. It exists because someone thought that denying the holocaust was offensive and akin of everything Nazi's stood for. It is there to deny freedom of speech and therefore freedom of opinion.

You can't have it both ways.

Re:This is very European of them.

[dcam]

That is one difference. Another is their methods. We should judge groups like this on their methods, not their aims.

Re:This is very European of them.

[turing_m]

Translation: I want to jail anyone who praises a party I don't agree with. Or writes a book that I don't like. So, I will burn your books and throw you in jail if you so dare as praise a regime that burned books and threw people in jail, or even use well referenced argument in a debate arguing against something I don't like.

Yeah, that makes sense. How very insightful of you.

Re:This is very European of them.

[lahi]

Well said.

Freedom of speech must include the right to hold stupid opinions and express them, even if they are denials of historical facts such as holocaust or the Armenian genocide, as long as you don't directly promote, for example, violence. That's also why Kurdish ROJ TV still is able to send from Denmark. Although I probably disagree with a lot of what the Kurds stand for (including all of Islam, which I find abominable) I strongly support their presence here, and hope we will not budge under the pressure, not only from Turkey, but also from the USA.

France and Germany are two bad examples, and the attempts by Germany to impose a EU-wide version of the Franco-German laws against for example holocaust-denial and display of the swastika, really stink. I think I've said it before - if they succeed, I will start wearing the swastika.

The European Union is an impossible and futile project. Ethics and morality simply varies too much, with strongly catholic parts, strongly protestant christian parts, and a few places that are nominally and traditionally protestant, but only weakly so, in practice. Recently we heard pope-ruled[1] Poland argue for making abortion illegal EU-wide. Such silly proposals seem to become more and more frequent, and one day, such a terrible thing just might go through.

Even in Scandinavia, we have such huge differences among us on some matters, that common legislation for them would be outrageous.

The more a democratic majority rule approaches a consensus, the better. This is easier to achieve with smaller administrative units. On a global scope, rules should be very few and very general. And even so, we see that in practice, there cannot be a global agreement on something as fundamental and general as human rights, because of the totally insane views of the islamic parts of the world. That's also why Turkey should never become a member of the EU.

-Lasse

[1] Poland may be a democracy, but effectively it seems to be a self-imposed theocratic dictatorship. I see no significant difference between the Pope and Hitler.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess what strikes me as utterly inane about trying to create thoughtcrime, most especially against fascist politics, is that it is itself fascist or at least a step towards fascism. It presupposes that some set of beliefs are wrong and criminalizes those thoughts.

I do not deny the atrocities of the holocaust or fascism, but from what I've been told of the time period in question there were more people citizens of the USSR killed by the USSR than killed in the holocaust. One would think that, based on the laws enacted against Nazism, there would be laws against denying the deaths that took place in the USSR and against political parties that advocate that particular brand of governance.

Similarly, the Biblical Flood is purported to have killed a majority of the humans living on earth at the time, so it would seem reasonable that anyone who denies the Biblical account of the Flood should face time in jail and that a strict ban on advocating the allegiance to the Biblical God that allowed him to proceed with his attack with the aide of Noah should be banned.

Yes, the holocaust is horrible, and yes fascism is idiotic. No, no one should need laws to back that up. Genocide and all forms of murder and torture should be illegal. Advocacy is a very different thing than action. In a properly balanced, educated environment advocates of such things are drawn out before the scrutiny of reason and are defeated. Under duress a nation may be brought under the control of wicked men, but that does not change simply by outlawing some particular form of wickedness. Vigilance is the price of liberty.

Re:This is very European of them.

[Das Modell]

Would terrorism in Thailand, Indonesia, India or the Philippines melt away too?

Re:This is very European of them.

[Das Modell]

I would submit that the problem may not be so easily laid to rest as it would seem that ignoring the Middle East and allowing countries there to lag behind the entire rest of the world including other third-world nations in terms of technology, economy, civilization, education, etc has already cost us and is ultimately the root of the problem which has led us here.

How are we responsible for that, and how are we going to improve the technology, economy, civilization and education of nations that don't want our help and will in fact violently resist any such help?

and is ultimately the root of the problem which has led us here.

The root of the problems in the Middle-East is Islam.

It's not a problem of intervening so much as intervening in the wrong way (setting up oppressive governments that discriminate against the most predominant religion, for instance

What? Oppressive Islamic governments oppress Muslims? Since when? They oppress mainly Christians, Jews and other religious minorities.

If we continue to ignore the plight of people who are desperately begging for relief from their suffering

Who are these people, exactly? If those poor, poor Muslims are so horribly oppressed, why do they oppose US intervention in the Middle-East, and why do they attempt to establish their failed societies in infidel nations in the form of sharia law?

Re:This is very European of them.

[Das Modell]

For anyone that thinks Turkey is a non-western nation that doesn't belong in the EU, please goto Turkey, vacation there, you will come back with a much different prospective.

What perspective would that be?

Re:This is very European of them.

[rifter]

" I would submit that the problem may not be so easily laid to rest as it would seem that ignoring the Middle East and allowing countries there to lag behind the entire rest of the world including other third-world nations in terms of technology, economy, civilization, education, etc has already cost us and is ultimately the root of the problem which has led us here."

How are we responsible for that, and how are we going to improve the technology, economy, civilization and education of nations that don't want our help and will in fact violently resist any such help?

Ultimately the responsibility lies with them, but the world seems to think it does with us. We *are* responsible for the actions our nations have taken which make things worse, and it would seem that when we ignore what is going on in countries the people in those countries will try to get our attention. Sometimes they get our attention by blowing shit up. If we do not like that ignoring them will not make it stop.

" and is ultimately the root of the problem which has led us here."

The root of the problems in the Middle-East is Islam.

The problems of the Middle East far predate Islam. Islam is just part of the flavour of the current witches' brew but it is not the problem in itself. Islam has been with us for less than 1400 years but European adventures into the Middle East (and problems when they fail to adventure there) have been a part of life for many times that number of years. I said 100,000 because about that time conflicts between Cro Magnon and Neanderthal ranged through the area but it's just as significant to consider the wars of Egypt, Persia, etc which are as old as civilization as we know it. 1000 years before Islam the Persian Empire threatened Europe and vice versa; 600 years before that we have the Trojan war and the people of Philistia who might well have included some Europeans. In any case war has been going on in the Middle East for longer than Man remembers and Europe/the West has been involved roughly (or at least almost) as long as people have recorded history.

Islam is not the problem so much as the misunderstanding between people of Islam and people who worship differently (or not at all) and the rise of fundamentalism. That is a problem in all religions not at all unique to Islam. Even during the Crusades, when people lived together in the Middle East they often learned to better understand and respect one another. There were times in that same period when Jews, Christians, and Muslims all prayed together on the Temple Mount. We've actually managed to deteriorate from that point and instead of learning to come together we have Muslims blaming Christians for the problem and Christians blaming Muslims, and atheists saying "let's call the whole thing off."

" It's not a problem of intervening so much as intervening in the wrong way (setting up oppressive governments that discriminate against the most predominant religion, for instance"

What? Oppressive Islamic governments oppress Muslims? Since when? They oppress mainly Christians, Jews and other religious minorities.

Not the governments set up by the US. Two good examples are Egypt and Iran (during the Shah's reign), both of which were responsible for gathering up, imprisoning, and torturing the hell out of Muslims. In the case of Egypt it was because they opposed the government and in the case of Iran it started out that way but ended up in a state where Islam was outlawed and people were punished for going to their mosques. This turned the Ayatollah Khomeini into a hero and made the 1979 revolution possible. In Egypt the Islamic Brotherhood and the teacher who made Ossama Bin Laden what he is (and taught him the basics of his Jihadist philosophy as well as how to start a movement in that regard) were basically created in the prisons of Egypt. Fundamentalism takes passion and nothing builds passion like a healthy dose of to

Re:This is very European of them.

[Das Modell]

Islam is not the problem so much as the misunderstanding between people of Islam and people who worship differently (or not at all) and the rise of fundamentalism.

Islam mandates that its followers must convert, subjugate or kill infidels. Its teachings cause Muslims to resist and avoid all those things that are part of modern civilization.

That is a problem in all religions not at all unique to Islam.

No, it's not a problem in all religions because all religions are not the same.

We've actually managed to deteriorate from that point and instead of learning to come together we have Muslims blaming Christians for the problem and Christians blaming Muslims, and atheists saying "let's call the whole thing off."

Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Hindus seem to have very little trouble co-existing with each other. Meanwhile, Muslims are waging holy war of some sort in almost every part of the world (in Thailand it's starting to become an ethnic cleansing), and Muslim immigrants are actively refusing to integrate or respect the values of the societies they live in. Instead of integration, they've got Islamization.

No wonder we haven't "learned to come together."

As for the sharia law, not all Muslims are for that any more than all Christians are.

Christianity does not have sharia law. Christianity does not dictate how people should live their lives nearly as much as Islam, because Islam is not only a religion, but a political system and an entire regulation of life and the universe.

What's funny about sharia law is it is exactly what Christian fundamentalists want as well (no drinking, dancing, fornication, homosexuality, etc).

Oh dear. I don't think you're quite familiar with sharia. It goes far beyond opposing drinking, fornication and homosexuality, and has little in common even with Christian fundamentalists in the US.

The difference here is that whereas the Cristian fundamentalists only get so far because they can only count on their base for support for such things, in the Middle East you have a choice between the local government which hates you and the US which seems to hate you since they support that government, or the Islamists who promise to get rid of the local government and the US. To the extent which the Islamists have support it is because people see no better choice.

Here you make the extremely common fallacy of assuming that Muslims are exactly like us and want exactly the same things, so of course living in Islamic societies must make them terribly miserable, because that would make us miserable too. Unfortunately this is not the case, and it can be readily observed in Europe where Muslim immigrants are busy establishing or attempting to establish Islamic societies, much like those found in the Middle-East. Their culture is perfectly normal to them, and from their point of view it's us who are immoral and evil. Even many of their women support the system.

However, I think we could go a long way by changing some of the actions we are taking which make life worse for these people, so that when we tell them our way of life is better (which it is) and that we mean well (which most of us do) they might believe us.

Appeasement, dialogue, tolerance and concessions have been tried, and the result has been a total catastrophe because people refuse to understand that contemporary Western culture is not shared by every human being. Converting Muslims to Westerners is as hard as doing it the other way around.

response from Turkey

[wolfgang_spangler]

In response to inquiries from the press about censorship, Turkey responded, "Gobble Gobble!!! Gobble Gobble Gobble!!! Gobble Gobble. Infidel. Gobble Gobble"

Re:response from Turkey

[bibel]

HA HA ... South park rulz. I wonder ... do they have South Park in Turkey ?

Re:response from Turkey

[guneycan]

yes we do have sp @ cnbc-e

Re:response from Turkey

[Themer]

Oh man my first laugh out loud of the day.. THANKS!

sad

[mastershake_phd]

And people say we shouldnt worry about things like that here in the US. What Im surprised with is when these things happen in other countries there is no outrage. Dont the people of Turkey care? It is a Democracy. How can you have a democracy without criticizing those in power?

Re:sad

[Aladrin]

As noted in other posts, you can't criticize the Turkish government unless you want to be arrested. How do you tell a government that it's done something stupid if you can't do so, even a little bit, without being arrested?

The answer is simple: You leak the information to the world and let them do it for you.

Re:sad

[ak3ldama]

Dont the people of Turkey care? It is a Democracy. How can you have a democracy without criticizing those in power?
islam.

Re:sad

[Chris whatever]

It happens when you think all of your values, ideologies and ideas are the one and only truth.

When other nations think like that, there is no way that people will criticize their government, they are too much indoctrinated in their religions and values.

Re:sad

[rainhill]

As noted in other posts, you can't criticize the Turkish government unless you want to be arrested. that's a nonesense statement right there.

Just learn about Turkish government

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

And you will understand this. What drives them to do this, and what makes them different from America.

Just a hint. Don't go back too far. Turkey lost World-war 1. In a bad, very very very bad way. Then what happened ? What was the political system that got defeated ? What was the political system that replaced it ?

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk replaced something. Why don't you check out what he replaced. You will understand VERY clearly why he's a saint in Turkey.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[julesh]

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk replaced something. Why don't you check out what he replaced. You will understand VERY clearly why he's a saint in Turkey.

I don't care what he did. Winston Churchill did great things when he lead Britain to defeat the Nazis, yet I can call him a fat drunken slob without fear of recrimination if I so desire. That's what freedom's about: not having to care about offending people just because they did something important.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[cdrguru]

You cannot offend people in the US any longer. It is illegal. It is called a "hate crime".

Of course, you have to be a member of a protected class of people in order for this to work. Currently, about the only non-protected class of people are older white men. This means that you can refer to older white men in any way you want.

However, if you say the word "nigger" you can be arrested. Faggot can get you repremanded or arrested as well.

While women are generally considered a protected class, I am not sure what publicly using the workd "cunt" will get you. Do it at work and you will get fired.

Kike? I'm not sure. They aren't brown enough.

Mick? Certainly not.

Spick? Hands behind the back for the cuffs.

We have laws now to ensure that people are not offended by others. You must respect minorities and deal with them in a courteous manner. Or else.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[fritz1968]

That's what freedom's about: not having to care about offending people just because they did something important.

You're not in politics, are you?

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[UberOogie]

You're an idiot with a persecution complex.

First of all, you're wrong. Substantively and specifically.

It is not a "hate crime" to use a racial epitaph. You cannot be arrested for using any of the words you mentioned.

Now, can you be fired for them? Sure. But that has nothing to do with the law. That has to do with whether a company wants the liability of a racist idiot on their staff. And it is not out of the goodness of their heart, but your ability to offend potential partners and clients.

You're just likely one of those people who wants to have the good old days when you could be an open racist without any repercussions. Go outside right now and say all of those epitaphs. You won't be arrested, but you may get beat up. No one is forcing you to be courteous, but you will have to face the reaction to your speech. You types are all about personal responsibility, right?

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not a "hate crime" to use a racial epitaph. You cannot be arrested for using any of the words you mentioned.

holy cow, you new to the USA??

if you get in an altercation with someone and call them a nigger the cop WILL arrest you right away for a hate crime. this is an absolute fact in everyplace but the deep south.

I suggest you get out more.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[CrashPoint]

You cannot offend people in the US any longer. It is illegal. It is called a "hate crime".

Bullshit. Hate crime laws are unconstitutional and should be repealed, but acting as though it's "illegal to offend people" is dishonest hyperbole at best.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[Anonymous Coward]

A racial epitaph? If you call someone a "dead nigger", maybe.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[Moby Cock]

I can call him a fat drunken slob

Attaturk had a pretty severe alcohol dependence too. Although, in Turkey it is downplayed pretty heavily. He wasn't fat though.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[Grishnakh]

What if the person using the n-word is black himself? That seems to be perfectly acceptable these days.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[debrain]

I don't care what he did. Winston Churchill did great things when he lead Britain to defeat the Nazis, yet I can call him a fat drunken slob without fear of recrimination if I so desire.

You can also call him an alcoholic, but he might tell you you're ugly, and that he'll be sober in the morning.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[CrashPoint]

if you get in an altercation with someone and call them a nigger the cop WILL arrest you right away for a hate crime. this is an absolute fact in everyplace but the deep south.

If it's an "absolute fact", then surely you can provide extensive proof that this is the case. Or even, you know, any at all.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[mikecardii]

Never have I needed mod points more than at this moment. This post deserves to be modded up.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[rlp]

Call Winston Churchill whatever you want. But be aware that for a couple of years he stood alone at the pinnacle of the fight between world civilization and tyranny. I'd call him the greatest leader of the twentieth century.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[hb253]

Calling all Slashdot comedians.

Please give me examples of racial EPITAPHS. I need a laugh.

Thank you.

Re:Just learn about Turkish government

[ddig83]

Yes, but tomorrow Churchill may...damn it!

Very American of them too...

[FatSean]

The French want to outlaw the filming of violence by non-journalists but allows for sexual content...and the Murricans want to up the violence but censor anything vaguely sexual.

Turkey is the worst of both worlds it seems! Turkey....you're never going to join the EU this way. Probably best for the EU too, Turkey's economy is not so hot.

Re:Very American of them too...

[cryfreedomlove]

FatSean,

I'm not sure what motivated you to drag the Americans into this. The story stands well on its own without using it as a yet another opportunity to criticize the USA.

Is YouTube going to be banned in the USA? Which government agency in the USA has the means to do that? Can you be specific?

Re:Very American of them too...

[Anonymous Coward]

Which government agency in the USA has the means to do that?

With Bush at the wheel, any agency. And if no agency has the means, he'll create a new agency just for that.

In Soviet USA, government crushes YOU!

Re:Very American of them too...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is insightful? Oh that is right, this is /. and any time someone bashes Bush it is FUCKIN A BRILLIANT!

Europe is beginning to make the US look like a bastion of freedom again in spite of the fact that the US's civil liberties are still in danger. (For those slow on the uptake, that is a bash on Europe, not a defense of the US.)

If you want to maintain any liberties, you people better start looking to your own back-yards instead of always self-righteously patting yourselves on the butt for not being the US.

Re:Very American of them too...

[chris_mahan]

by the way, it's Murkins.

Re:Very American of them too...

[Anonymous Coward]

At least in the US we can bash our public leaders on /. without being censored...

Re:Very American of them too...

[Huff]

We don't have 'back yards', we have back gardens. :-)
Huff

Re:Very American of them too...

[soft_guy]

Bush is struggling to remain relevant. I don't think he's got the political capital to go after YouTube.

Re:Very American of them too...

[Anonymous Coward]

> Probably best for the EU too, Turkey's economy is not so hot.

You sure about that? Turkey had 8% GDP growth last year.

Re:Very American of them too...

[grcumb]

The French want to outlaw the filming of violence by non-journalists but allows for sexual content...and the Murricans want to up the violence but censor anything vaguely sexual.

... And in Soviet Russia, Youtube would censor Turkeys!

But that would kind of ruin their business model, wouldn't it?

Re:Very American of them too...

[fatphil]

ITYM 'Merkins'.

HTH,
FatPhil

Re:Very American of them too...

[rifter]

Bush is struggling to remain relevant. I don't think he's got the political capital to go after YouTube.

YouTube is not in direct danger of being shut down by the government. It is, however, in indirect danger of being shut down by the government simply because it offends the Corporate Masters. Google has been heading this off by paying protection money (COMPLETELY UNWARRANTED) but that may not be enough. In the end YouTube poses a greater threat to media companies by virtue of the original content on YouTube. The pirate angle is a useful canard for now, but that's the only way YouTube damages these corporations; by being a part of the democratization of media which threatens their stranglehold on human thought, entertainment, and media in general.

When the corporations ask the government to put the kibosh on YouTube, it will if it follows historical precendent. It may be the courts, or the legislature, or some combination of the two. The only way the President would be involved is in the negotiation for how much that's going to cost them in terms of contributions to his party's coffers. The issue of whether the government should be subservient to corporations is one of many points on which both parties agree, so it's not fair blaming the Republicans or Bush (even though there were some egregious cases in the recent administration, slashdotters most hating the one involving Microsoft). Politicians seem to believe fervently in the bipartisan ideal that money, in the form of campaign contributions from corporations, has veto power over all other considerations which means that when corporations ask for something they will generally get it. The only reason the political parties have not put this fee structure on an ecommerce website to make the process more efficient is that making processes more efficient is antithetical to their purpose; this belief is another of the bipartisan ideals which drive the real business of government.

Re:Very American of them too...

[Benaiah]

HAH. The USA does ban online poker sites. The USA has many sites that will only show you the content you want if you are in the US. (itunes, xboxlive). So yeah following problems with the US (and by association with the FTA Australia)

1. Copyright fucks the freedom of speech
2. Bloggers(even anonymous) will soon be sued for defamation
3.The Government impedes your freedom of speech by discretely blocking websites. Not making a big ruckus.
4. Happy Birthday to you.
Happy Birthday to you.
Happy birthday dear fatsean.
Happy birthday to you.

I just broke new Aus anti copyright laws. TRG will be at the door any seccond to get my $7k fine for illegally publishing copyrighted works.

Re:Very American of them too...

[soft_guy]

No shit.

This is why

[jbeaupre]

I enjoy living in a country where not only is it legal to point out flaws and ridicule those in power, it is a national pastime. What more restrictive countries miss is that by letting everyone vent their opinions any time they want (and vote from time to time), dissent never seems to lead to revolution. Granted, this was a case of a Greek making fun of Turkey. A bit of historical animosity there. But a better response would have been along the lines of "Is that your best shot?" Maybe take a page from Cyrano. Like when an Israeli publication launched it's own anti-jewish cartoon contest in response to an Iranian newspaper's similar contest with the stated goal that they could self criticize better than any outsider (no idea on the outcome).

Would Greeece help?

[xs650]

Is Syria attacked Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?

Re:Would Greeece help?

[{X-Frog}]

what the hell?
why would Syria attacks Turkey?!

Re:Would Greeece help?

[Acacius]

Most probably. Greece is obliged to help Turkey in such a case, as both countries are NATO members and therefore allies.

Re:Would Greeece help?

[e1618978]

I'm guessing that the op was making a joke, as anal sex is often referred to as "greek".

Re:Would Greeece help?

[phasm42]

Is Syria attacked Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?

what the hell?
why would Syria attacks Turkey?!

*WHOOSH*

Re:Would Greeece help?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look overhead! *whoosh*

Re:Would Greeece help?

[o'reor]

why would Syria attacks Turkey?!

For the sake of a bad pun. But "Greeece" won't help in understanding it.

Re:Would Greeece help?

[UbuntuDupe]

I thought the "Greece" bit was just a pun on "grease", i.e. lube.

Re:Would Greeece help?

[Fozzyuw]

I thought the "Greece" bit was just a pun on "grease", i.e. lube.

That's what I was thinking as well

Re:Would Greeece help?

[geoffspear]

If Greece and Turkey declare war on each other, would they then have to declare war on themselves too, since they're "allies"?

Re:Would Greeece help?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a joke hitler.

Re:Would Greeece help?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, considering that Turkey most likely wouldn't want Greek troups on it's land, and that Turkey (in all likelyhood) has a vastly superior military to Syria (in numbers, quality of material and in training), Greece shouldn't have to.

Re:Would Greeece help?

[o'reor]

I am apalled at the number of replies that would deserve a "-1, *wooosh!*" moderation for not getting your joke in the first place ;-)

Re:Would Greeece help?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't hurt. Anything to stay away from the Red Sea. Gotta protect Djibouti. Otherwise, Oman...

Re:Would Greeece help?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope:
(F)or the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

        * on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
        * on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

So NATO isn't entitled to reply if Syria sticks to the part of Turkey thats in the basin of the Indian Ocean (similarly if for example Russians were to carefully invade just the western part of America with out crossing the Pacific watershed.

Re:Would Greeece help?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont think greece or any country will need to come to turkeys rescue.
Turkey will kick syria's ass bigtime.

In other news

[computational super]

... In other news, the Slashdot effect is about to censor the court order.

Re:In other news

[Butisol]

Sometimes all you can do is keep the flame burning. I like to think that every troll gets his time in the limelight at some point.

Re:Please apply the following tag...

[Anonymous Coward]

moderator's mom is overrated.

Narcistic Turkey vs. The World

[Denial93]

Turkey, as a country, has what in a human would be diagnosed as pathological narcism. They just jailed a Kurd for six months for respectfully referring to convicted rebel Abdullah Ocalan as "Mr Ocalan". They brought criminal charges against their Nobel Prize winner Orhan Pamuk for mentioning a government-sponsored genocide almost 100 years ago. Turkey denies this holocaust.

Why do I say this? Just to make clear this new ruling is just a small symptom of a much wider problem. It shouldn't surprise us in any way, but merely drive home the point Turkey is currently rather distant from European ideas of how to apply state power. More insidiously, this new conflict also points at the ever-increasing difficulty of isolating minority opinions from outside critique - the only way to do it, ultimately, is the North Korean route. I don't think Turkey will do that - they have a very proud and nationalistic government, but it is not a dictatorship with the power to force the ever-increasing price of its ego issues on all of the population.

Re:Narcistic Turkey vs. The World

[xtracto]

Well, I do not know what does Turkish do to piss everybody but, so far since I have arrived the UK almost everyone who speaks about Turks say the worst things about them.

For example, a Greek girl told me that they were racists and they were assholes that tried to invade certain Greek lands and that a lot of Turks try to emigrate to other places and do terrible things. Then, a cousin living in Spain also told me to beware of the Turks, he told me "I am no racist or anything but it seems that at least in Barcelona the only people that will assault and rob you are Turks". And then an American who lived in Egypt and other places also talked of Turks as shit (of course, well... she is American so... take it with a grain of salt).

I have nothing against them, from where I come from (Mexico) I had no preconception of them but wow It seems they should have done things very wrong to be seen how they are seen. Of course I cant put my hands in the fire for Mexicans as lots of Americans might see us like illegal aliens trying to take out your jobs (Although... as our so "loved" ex-president, Mexicans go to USA to do work that "not even blacks" like to do [with apologies to our fellow non-white friends]).

Re:Narcistic Turkey vs. The World

[yankI]

As of today, the court reversed its decision on the YouTube ban after YouTube pulled down the videos in question.

Re:Narcistic Turkey vs. The World

[drinkypoo]

For example, a Greek girl told me that they were racists and they were assholes that tried to invade certain Greek lands and that a lot of Turks try to emigrate to other places and do terrible things. Then, a cousin living in Spain also told me to beware of the Turks, he told me "I am no racist or anything but it seems that at least in Barcelona the only people that will assault and rob you are Turks". And then an American who lived in Egypt and other places also talked of Turks as shit (of course, well... she is American so... take it with a grain of salt).

So the only people who you can't trust in this list are the Americans?

Congratulations for outing yourself as a bigot.

Americans are people too. Try not to forget this.

I have nothing against them, from where I come from (Mexico) I had no preconception of them but wow It seems they should have done things very wrong to be seen how they are seen. Of course I cant put my hands in the fire for Mexicans as lots of Americans might see us like illegal aliens trying to take out your jobs (Although... as our so "loved" ex-president, Mexicans go to USA to do work that "not even blacks" like to do [with apologies to our fellow non-white friends]).

Although many Americans don't understand this, America has set up the situation in Central America quite deliberately and successfully to achieve certain goals. One of them is to have someplace close to home to have manufacturing work done cheaply. Another is to provide a source of cheap labor for jobs Americans don't want to do for a price that will sustain the market. What many Americans don't understand is that they will be paying four dollars for a head of iceberg lettuce (currently a dollar or less when in season for those who don't know because they are lucky enough to live somewhere else) if we don't have this pool of laborers that can be cheated on wages and for whom benefits are not paid.

Illegal immigration is just a hidden cost of our system of corporate welfare.

Americans are not any more or less stupid than anyone else. What we are is lazy, because we can be. We've had it so good for so long we've forgotten what real hardship was like. No one is starving in this country because there is no help for them, only because they do not like what they will have to do to get the help, which is usually just to admit that they are helpless but sometimes involves a change of lifestyle.

Re:Narcistic Turkey vs. The World

[Ronald Dumsfeld]

First off, what the hell is wrong with /.? I can't find the post a reply message here with Firefox.

Then, to respond to the parent, I tend to agree with much of what you say. There is a progressive minority within the country that would admit to the Armenian genocide, become more secular, and embrace European ideals.

But they're just that, a minority. Turkey isn't ready to join the European Union, and this is just one of the indicators that shows it.

Re:Narcistic Turkey vs. The World

[Anonymous Coward]

The Rebel you talk about was the leader of a terrorist group called PKK in Turkey, killing at least 30000 innocent people in Turkey. The conviction is not because they called him Mr. Ocalan, but because they supported him. With the court rulings of US, Turkey should be hanging this terrorist. The other convictions are may be not appropriate ones, but there is a law and it should be applied. The discussion of the law is another issue. The so called Armenian Genocide is an issue of history. It is well known that the Armenian Diaspora has considerable effect on many countries and just use its political power to pass the issue as legislation. I am sure nobody here ever tried to understand the Turkish side of the so called genocide. I wonder if anyone really searched for the documents released by the Turkish government and Turkish military. And the greek genocide during WWI is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. If there is a genocide Greek soldiers did it in Izmir. A considerable part of west Turkey is ruled by Greek army during 1918-1923. The Turkish people killed, raped, etc. Check history for WWI and see what parts of the Turkey(Ottoman Empire) were invaded by which countries in that period. Check the War or Dardanelles. I believe it should not be that easy to judge countries with politics. I do not believe there is one nation on the world since the beginning of the world without mistakes. For EU, Turkey will not be admitted to EU for at least 2 more decades and I am not really sure if the EU will remain in effect for 2 more decades. The Turkey's membership issue in EU is nothing but a puppet show. And by the way the popularity of the EU in Turkey decreased from 60-70% to 30-40% in the last year. So really the Turkish people are not dying to go into the EU. They started to think of better relations with the Asian side of the World, which I believe should be the way for Turkey.

Re:Narcistic Turkey vs. The World

[LizardKing]

So three people label an entire nation as "mugging, racist assholes" and you take it at face value? I certainly hope not. You also might want to have a word with your cousin as most "middle eastern" looking people in Barcelona are from Morocco or Algeria (they are responsible for a lot of petty crime though, but does that make all Moroccans or Algerians muggers?). As for the Greek girl, it sounds like she either doesn't know or doesn't want to know the facts about the partition of Cyprus. It's simply not a case of nice Greeks and nasty Turks, more a case of a dodgy military dictatorship in mainland Greece trying to absorb Cyprus. And as for Turks "emigrating everywhere" and the implication it's to do terrible things, what if I was to label you "a drug smuggling Latin American coming to London"?

Re:Narcistic Turkey vs. The World

[Anonymous Coward]

I have nothing against them, from where I come from (Mexico) I had no preconception of them but wow It seems they should have done things very wrong to be seen how they are seen. And clearly stereotyping doesn't lead to racism. You might ask a turk about the greeks and then you might not be so quick to trust what that greek girl had to say. Or ask a Jew about the Palestinians and you might not be so sympathetic to them being kept in refugee camps. Ask someone Chinese about the foreign devils and the rightful place of China in the world and maybe you will just think a little less of yourself and your country. Or ask an American if they have the best democracy in the world and see if you might want to make a few changes in India. Seems you will learn a lot about different people just asking around.

Re:Narcistic Turkey vs. The World

[xtracto]

Take it easy on me pal. As I stated on the previous post I do not have anything against Turks. I was just expressing what I heard. Also, I know I sounded like a bigot when talking the way I did against Americans. For that I am sorry, I have some American friends that are very nice. But let me tell you a factual story which I heard on first person with my own ears:

When I met one of those good American friends (a girl from Ohio) we were in Amsterdam in the same Hostel, sometime after we met, her father called her on her mobile and after some time talking she said something like "oh come on dad, who can I befriend here? you know nobody likes Americans". That is she acknowledged that people do not like them.

I was a bit surprised to see that but then again not so much because see, all of the people from USA I have met is people who I met outside USA. And almost all of these people acknowledged in one way or another that Americans usually closed and they think they are the best and their country is heaven and that everybody sucks... again I am telling you the ideas that this people let me understand (and It was not just one, if you are interested, it was two in La Paz, BCS; one in Xalapa, Veracruz; one in Barcelona, Spain; two in Liverpool, UK; and those are all that I remember, all of them unrelated to one another).

I do not make any generalization because that will mean that all these friends are also whatever they said. But well, I can see a pattern when it emerges. Of course the sample is very tiny but statistically it has been something like the 90% of the Americans I have met.

Re:Narcistic Turkey vs. The World

[Omestes]

of course, well... she is American so... take it with a grain of salt

Congrats, you just invalidated everything you possibly could say, and better you fit into the same class of people you were criticizing by propagating your own bigoted stereotype of a nationality.

Mexicans go to USA to do work that "not even blacks" like to do [with apologies to our fellow non-white friends]).

Yes, because hiring illegal immigrants keeps the wages down. I'm not going to debate this point, its tangential and too complex to get into here. What does this have to do with the issue at hand anyways?

Shoulda linked

[jlebrech]

You should linked to the actually page an not just have an image.

Slashdot the suckers :D

Turkey scares the bejeezus out of me.

[Butisol]

I saw that movie Midnight Express. I think people are afraid to challenge this fascist nonsense because they're afraid of a vicious asspounding in a Turkish dungeon, you know, like on that movie Midnight Express. YouTube or YouLube, not a tough choice.

Re:Turkey scares the bejeezus out of me.

[e1618978]

That is really true - you can tell a lot about a country by looking at movies. All small towns in the South are run by corrupt police, and they all have KKK meetings every weekend. Plus Sweden is stewardess orgy central, and Canada is full of flappy headed fart jokers, plus a few seal clubbing, back bacon eating French Canadians.

Re:Turkey scares the bejeezus out of me.

[unity100]

Plus Sweden is stewardess orgy central

Oh boy !! I love blonde "swödige"

Re:Turkey scares the bejeezus out of me.

[basicguy]

" That is really true - you can tell a lot about a country by looking at movies. All small towns in the South are run by corrupt police, and they all have KKK meetings every weekend. Plus Sweden is stewardess orgy central, and Canada is full of flappy headed fart jokers, plus a few seal clubbing, back bacon eating French Canadians." You're partially right. Not everybody fits the stereotypes. I've lived in Canada, and now live in the South. Guess I really missed out not moving to Sweden ;-)

Re:Turkey scares the bejeezus out of me.

[rainman_bc]

anada is full of flappy headed fart jokers, plus a few seal clubbing, back bacon eating French Canadians.

Flappy headed fart joker? I've never heard us generalized like that before... Beer drinking hosers, definitely eh. But not flappy headed far joker...

Re:Turkey scares the bejeezus out of me.

[okan]

If you are affected by Midnight Express, you should also see these two clips from youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TweU77cDrgE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqPMI6BnINI

Re:Turkey scares the bejeezus out of me.

[Anonymous Coward]

Canadians on South Park have flappy heads and like to fart at each other.

Re:Turkey scares the bejeezus out of me.

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada... is full of canadians?! Who would have thought?

In other news

[hedleyroos]

Chicken sensors Google

Especially since Germany has similar laws

[wiredog]

Except those laws criminalize different speech. I fully expect YouTube to be banned in parts of the EU for hosting either old Nazi propaganda films or Holocaust denial.

Re:Especially since Germany has similar laws

[Anonymous Coward]

And in the US, YouTube won't be banned - instead, everyone is just DMCAing anything he doesn't like, thus effectively censoring YouTube everywhere on the world instead in just one country.

lol

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I can't imagine why we would have a problem with letting go of our control of DNS to a global body, nooooo clue.

DNS Root Servers

[tomz16]

Hope everyone remembers this next time the stupid "US controls the DNS root" non-issue comes up again.

Re:DNS Root Servers

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the US controlling the DNS root certainly stopped this
attempt at censorship. Go USA!

Idiot.

Re:DNS Root Servers

[Anonymous Coward]

Tip: If you're try to post anonymously, it defeats the purpose to put your name at the end of a message.

Re:DNS Root Servers

[giorgiofr]

You must be joking. This is precisely the reason why no one should be allowed such kind of access to the root servers. Not even you.
Not my problem anyway, as I use a different set of roots already.

Re:DNS Root Servers

[Anonymous Coward]

Couldn't think of a reply to my substantive point eh?

Tip: If you're try to post anonymously, it defeats the purpose
to put your name at the end of a message.

I'll fix that then:

Idiot US imperialist cunt.

Re:DNS Root Servers

[Bryansix]

Are you calling the US imperialistic because it controls the DNS roots? You do realize that the US created the Internet? How is that imperialistic?

Re:DNS Root Servers

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Mr. Idiot, No, I just thought you were too obtuse to understand a response that might not agree with your prejudices. But if you insist. The original post is not implying that control of the DNS can overcome a local firewall. That wasn't his point, despite your misdirection and ad hominem attack. His point is either a) US control of DNS has not led to similar blocks despite innumerable sites, files, etc dedicated to decrying America and Americans on a level far in excess of this video on YouTube (your previous post, for example), or b) DNS power concentrated in one nation's control could lead to something like what Turkey has done on a larger scale. I believe he means the first. You, Mr. Idiot, decided to ether use his post as a chance to show you either have little understanding of networking or just like to bitch endlessly. Probably both.

Re:DNS Root Servers

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck that. Suppose with me for a moment that Turkey controlled the root DNS servers. Then they go ahead and redirect all www.youtube.com requests to whatever "you have been a victim of censorship" sad excuse page they have set up. So what would happen, hmm? The entire world lets it get by? No, it gets noticed, the entire world screams and the Turkish IT people would get slapped down HARD for their stupidity, and nothing like this would ever be allowed to happen again. Win-win.

Contrast to current situation. Oh, it's only in Turkey. Who cares? Sweep it under the rug, let the problem continue, it doesn't affect us, zzzzzzzzzz..... stupic nationalistic fuckheads (yes, I include YOU tomz16) are still stupid whether they are American or Turkish.

Re:DNS Root Servers

[Anonymous Coward]

How the fuck is this relevant?

Turkey banned something in Turkey. If you really think they'd reach over to ban this in the good ol' U. S. of A. then you need to STFU.

Re:DNS Root Servers

[Anonymous Coward]

The USA[1] created the Internet, but Europe created the world wide web, so get off of our web now. Oh yeah, and while you're at it, stop listening to those MP3s; lossy audio compression based on a psychoacustic model was developed in Germany, so stop using that now. (And also stop using copycat formats like Ogg/Vorbis, WMA, M4A and so on.)

Mod parent Offtopic.

[phoenixwade]

Other than being a turkey, how does this diatribe about the American VP apply to the Turkey censors YouTube article?

I KISS YOU!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for fix. I KISS YOU!!!!

thank god for google

[rjnagle]

In retrospect, it's probably a good thing that Google bought Youtube.

they have enough muscle that they will not remove a video merely because of political pressure. It's hard to know if a startup company could have the same cojones.

Re:thank god for google

[Anonymous Coward]

When I see how google got really into censorship in china, to please chinese government, I doubt this.

Re:thank god for google

[maxwell demon]

You mean, just as they don't remove links from their search results due to political pressure?

Re:thank god for google

[memprime]

I hope you're being sarcastic because I can't find the video on YouTube.

Re:thank god for google

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank god for what ? It's the same google that bends over backwards to satisfy the govt in china. Agreed that Turkey is not China, but Google is also not in love with principles, atleast not more than it is in love with it's own bottomlines.

Re:thank god for google

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually they have removed, and the censorship is about to finish

If there was ever a case for...

[OlivierB]

OpenDns then this is it.

No need to mock around with your hosts file with Sudo, hosts.etc and who knows what kind of crap. Just open your connections settings and instead of "use ISP DNS" just pop in 208.67.222.222 and 208.67.220.220
Works like a charm.

And if that doesn't work (99% guaranteed it will) than fork over some dough for PublicVPN Relakks or whatever. $5 per month or whatever is not a whole lot for freedom of speech.

Re:If there was ever a case for...

[Anonymous Coward]

Tried OpenDNS, doesn't help. And you can't access youtube.com by typing in the numeric IP either. It appears something else is at work not just DNS filtering.

Thats turkey for you

[unity100]

Turkey is a place where 'holy state' concept still lingers on. Anything said against the state, or 'holy' values instantly justifies and extreme measures - like banning of a whole mega site from ALL users in an 60 million nation.

it doesnt matter what purpose for the site is generally used or not - just say something that is not to the liking of the state, and voila, all is gone.

Turkey is not a modern country by any means unfortunately. Everything is shown to be in that direction by the turkish negotiators to european union, however suppression of the citizens by the government still continue on.

Recently, if you remember, a list of 30+ games including Knight online, counterstrike, halflife and such were banned in turkey from internet cafes with the state decision, citing reports from obscure, unknown local academician's reports that said 'these games teach kids violence'. These reports were given on the fly, with demand from government, in a few hours without any research. Simple as that. An executive decision that took half a day for the governmental bureucracy to take and implement.

Same goes for anything else - citizens are pariah to the state in turkey. If you go to get something done in a local government branch, the appointed/elected authority holders scorn over you, elected representatives of the assembly behave like they are local feudal lords, not as normal people elected to serve people. The current Finance Minister passes out FOUR laws in order to erase HIS OWN COMPANY'S tax debts to government, and nobody can oppose it. A newspaper/television says something not to the liking of the ruling party, and suddenly finance ministry starts a thorough and not-by-the-book tax examination of that newspaper/televison to suppress them.

Recently a law was prepared and proposed in order to make it much more easy for government to control what is being said on the internet, with the help of a certain media group's fud-spamming, saying that 'internet is evil and needs to be straightened out'.

Unfortunately this is turkey for you.

Re:Thats turkey for you

[bogjobber]

Turkey is not a modern country by any means unfortunately.

I think you meant to say that Turkey is not a modern country by all means. Despite the obvious flaws, Turkey is still a very cool place, and millions of miles ahead of most Muslim countries. One thing many other posters are avoiding is that repressions of some freedoms which Westerners would consider essential is one of the major reasons why Turkey has not adopted Sharia law. In many ways restrictive laws such as these have protected secularism. It's not always as simple as it seems on the surface.

Re:Thats turkey for you

[Adambomb]

Unfortunately this is turkey for you. Oh don't be too hard on the turks, thats pretty much a percentage of humanity in general beyond turkey alone. There are those pushing similar agendas in many other countries; The only difference being that many nations had people in power previously who ensured that it is difficult to convert their democracy into an autocracy or oligarchy. Sadly, after Kemal centralized the government in Turkey, his successors found it very EASY to turn into such a state.

Fundamentalists and extremists exist everywhere; All WE notice is where they've become vocal enough to notice. Sadly if the rest of us are to have any freedom, they must have the freedom to spout their crap as well. It's a question on whether their hands are also on the reins.

Re:Thats turkey for you

[rainhill]

i wander if you ever been? or have you ever read anything about the country you loudly speak against? have you?

Re:Thats turkey for you

[unity100]

im living in it for the last 30 years, you dolt.

Was YouTube Gobbled up by Turkey?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Hungary masses were drawing near and Turkey was afraid of being made into Chile, so Turkey pre-emptively Gobbled YouTube
I might do the same if my fridge didn't have an Iceland to store leftovers in.

Where's Ata Turk when you need him?

[Anonymous Coward]

This man liberated Turkey from the clutches of religion and reformed it into a modern, more liberal society. A long time ago.

Now they're all going backwards again. Well, the US isn't exactly a good example though, with all them moralists. (insert electron/moron joke here)

Roast Turkey

[scriptedfate]

Turns out the redirect doesn't happen if you're using Firefox: http://www.boingboing.net/2007/03/07/turkey_youtub e_block.html

Perhaps this is just an excuse to get the people of Turkey to stop using IE? ...one can only hope

Too lame

[MrPeach]

Redirection at the DNS level? Can you say OpenDNS? I knew you could!

Some information about Ataturk

[sesshomaru]

Here's a Turkish blog with an excerpt from an article by Gary Brecher about the "Father of All Turks"

Gary Brecher: Glory to the Turks

Oh, and also here is the Pingus engine game, Gallipoli: The Game which has a very short bio of Ataturk on the page("Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Turkish): Killed a lot of Australians (and New Zealanders) at Gallipoli and therefore became the first President of Turkey."), but it also has a picture. You can play as Ataturk in the game which is a good example of Australian sardonic humor.

Re:Some information about Ataturk

[Anonymous Coward]

Ataturk killed Australians???
what were those Australians doing in there? Having vacation?

Re:Some information about Ataturk

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you notice that the myspace poster is from Turkey? Think maybe he is a little biased?

Re:The Real Reason

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're debating on clicking on that link, don't worry, there's only one foul word in that entire 2 minute clip!

...and its mother.

Not much can be done.

[Sauvik]

You can't help but wonder in awe. The amount of useless bashing around the bush that goes on is kind of irritaing at times but nothing can be done. These govt. officials mostly have no idea of the technology, their mechanisms, etc. which is kind of annoying considering the fact that they are the ones who decide about these things. It's a problem of ignorance.

Figures it was a Greek who got them riled up

[Anonymous Coward]

Now the Turks can't endlessly spam Youtube's comments under every "300" trailer posted to the site.

Turkey Censors YouTube

[Nom du Keyboard]

Turkey Censors YouTube.

Did anybody notice -- except us?

Re: Turkey Censors YouTube

[hkroger]

Maybe The Turks did?

The American equivalent...

[xerxesVII]

I'm guessing the American equivalent would be blocking youtube over this informative video about George Washington.

Re:The American equivalent...

[deprecated]

That is awesome. Thank you.

Oh the horror!

[B_tace]

What are all those poor Turkish teens to do without YouTube to entertain them?

Oh the insanity!

Re:Oh the horror!

[Anonymous Coward]

You know.. they'll read the Koran ...

Re:Ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Canadian, but thanks for the insult though. Despite you guys thinking that Americans are stupid here is a little something: Americans are going to space, Turks still don't believe that space exists.
Anyway, Istanbul (Constantinople) is big, but this was not a comment about the size of Istabul but rather about number of people using computers and the internet. Since this article was not about demographics, but rather the opression of Turkish government let's leave it at that.

Insulting Turkey

[MillionthMonkey]

I was feeling embarrassed for my own country, which is drifting in this direction, and then I heard Turkey was enforcing a law making it explicitly illegal to insult it. Lots of countries have old laws on the books like this, and political factors make it difficult to either repeal or prosecute them, so they're just ignored. But in Turkey people have been actually prosecuted for violating this one- in modern times too!

Great going, Turks, real classy. Nobody could have insulted you any more deeply than you insulted yourselves. This law is being marvelled at around the world. Signapore's chewing gum law had nothing on this. Most of the news I hear from Turkey is about someone getting in trouble for "insulting Turkishness". Whatever previous impression I had of Turkey is gone. Now I always think of this law, and how embarrassing it must be to live in a country backwards enough to have such a thing.

BTW Turkey did play a role in the Armenian genocide; apparently Turks think a Turkish law making it illegal to say it in Turkey will convince the world otherwise. Turkey's genocide occurred 90 years ago, but this law makes it an issue again.

I suppose I shouldn't venture into Turkey after posting this, but I can't see ever wanting to visit such a place.

Re:Insulting Turkey

[Moby Cock]

Lots of countries have old laws on the books like this

The law in Turkey is actually quite new. It cam into effect in 2005.

Article 301

Apologies but i beg to differ

[unity100]

Despite being a Jacobenite Turk, totally in compliance with ideals of French Revolution jacobins, i have to also say that that 'convicted' 'rebel' is little more than a thug that has amassed 30.000 kills from both sides in the last 20 years to his own account.

As for the minority that is 'suffering' in southeastern turkey, the kurds, he is 'fighting for', a few facts here, so you can decide if there is anything to rebel about :

- 80% of the electricity used in that region is illegal - they directly steal electricity from the national network, and do not pay. We, people living in western parts pay for kurd's electric bills.

- In the last 20 years, a great deal of the national budget has been spent in infrastructure investments in southeastern anatolia, in kurd populated zone, for them to be able to better do agriculture and related activities. Now they are making heaploads of money, but all the money is taken by their clan leaders in accordance with their long standing clan structure and individuals do not get anything major. they are fine with it, dont object.

- A good deal of them migrate to western parts of turkey and major cities. the number of rapes, muggings, robberies, and other mafia-related activities have gone to such an extent that national police is unable to deal with them all, and a nation wide outcry is going on for a few years now. They move in and rent a shop in a neighborhood, then gradually force out ALL other people out of their businesses and rent all shops to their kurdish relatives. There has come up a common saying that "if you let a kurd in to a neighborhood, after 10 years all of the neighborhood becomes kurd".

Despite all these likewise happenings, they go and cry to the european civil rights people saying that 'they are being suppressed' in turkey. ill tell you who is actually being suppressed, people like me, who are civil, normal people, who cant take a leisurely stroll about antalya, which is the most important touristic destination in turkey, comparable to cannes, barcelona, balear islands, without the fear of being mugged by one kurd, and that kurd being let out from jail in just a day's time, because of utterly ridiculous punitive laws that were passed by the pressure of european union, because the current laws were not 'civil' enough. instead these laws are serving muggers', robbers', mafias' interests in turkey - rob someone, youre out in just 2 days. there are people who consecutively committed 18 and more, some fatal robberies, felonies and etc, and still walking openly around - because of the overly 'civil' laws imposed by eu.

Excuse me, but no humanist ideal, no french revolutionary approach, no civility concept can justify letting out of killers, muggers, rapists and the like in a few days. And unfortunately kurds are the ones who are most benefiting from these laws. Their mafia is most harmful.

And yet we have ocalan, and his 'rebellion' to 'save' kurds from 'oppression'.

I have paid $150 for monthly electric bill, which roughly translates into a $600-$700 bill in united states terms, DESPITE not using any noticeable electricity. You know why ? Someone needs to pay the stolen electricity in kurdish regions so that national electric company can come up in the green.

What i wonder is, WHO is going to protect us from the kurds ?

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[UberOogie]

Yeah, hi. You're a racist. Just thought you'd like to know.

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[unity100]

Definitely. Humanity unfortunately slips away when you happen to fall in a position that you need to save your ass, and repetitively, from the same ethnic group, and despite the fact that he and you are under the same equal treatment in a country.

Excuse me, i said equal, which is actually not so - nobody touches a kurd in turkey for the fear of their clan retaliating against you - police evades them, low level bureucrats do kurds' work faster to evade any quarrels (which might result in being bashed in a back alley by him with some relatives), tax people evade messing up too much with kurdish shopkeepers and so on.

unfortunately, despite being in the 'whitish white' position in terms of social strata in turkey, i am not enjoying the same liberties. I have to abide by all laws in full, and pay all dues.

It would be utterly ridiculous to demand equal rights as racism. And that is what i do.

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[Anonymous Coward]

Right,
kill'em all for stealing electricity.

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[Anonymous Coward]

You've vision is off course skewed. It is, don't deny it, you're involved, it simply is not neutral. The biggest error you make is off course generalizing this ethnic group as "all the same". I'm not making claims to the extent of you "black-and-whitism", and I'm certainly not saying you are completely wrong. There is off course a certain amount of truth in your viewpoint. From my neutral point of view the following idea pops up: Why don't you just dump the problem on them? Give them a federate country within turkey, and organize elections. Give them huge financial independence. This new government will soon be fighting for these clans and mafia for you. If they are so different, give them (limited) independence. The more independence you give them, the more they have to "clean up their act" as they say...

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[Grishnakh]

This was what I was just about to suggest here. If these people are such a problem, let them have their own country, and deal with their own problems. Then they can't claim they're being oppressed. What's the problem with this?

Of course, my understanding is the Kurds sit on a lot of oil in the southeast portion of Turkey, so the Turks would probably rather bitch and whine about them rather than give them independence and let them have the oil.

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[Carewolf]

- 80% of the electricity used in that region is illegal - they directly steal electricity from the national network, and do not pay. We, people living in western parts pay for kurd's electric bills.

  - In the last 20 years, a great deal of the national budget has been spent in infrastructure investments in southeastern anatolia, in kurd populated zone, for them to be able to better do agriculture and related activities. Now they are making heaploads of money, but all the money is taken by their clan leaders in accordance with their long standing clan structure and individuals do not get anything major. they are fine with it, dont object.

  - A good deal of them migrate to western parts of turkey and major cities. the number of rapes, muggings, robberies, and other mafia-related activities have gone to such an extent that national police is unable to deal with them all, and a nation wide outcry is going on for a few years now. They move in and rent a shop in a neighborhood, then gradually force out ALL other people out of their businesses and rent all shops to their kurdish relatives. There has come up a common saying that "if you let a kurd in to a neighborhood, after 10 years all of the neighborhood becomes kurd".


If they are so horrible. Why don't you let them go?

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[unity100]

Oh boy. you definitely have no clue about the way of life in anatolia and eastward.

First, there is the fact that, when 8 out of 10 of a certain lot does the same thing, you HAVE to generalize. Its basically as simple as that. Its like saying that 'you cant generalize members of the nazi party, they are not all equal'. Well, these are not nazi, but you get my meaning. What you propose goes against the general naming of things in life - if what you say would apply, we wouldnt be able to use the term 'website' because all websites are different.

I can say not all americans are racist, not all french are snobs, not all english are cold. Because this is as such, but, unfortunately still more than 90% of the kurds live in clan structures, and most unfortunately the clan enforces and promotes such behaviour. Hence we find kurds involved in the events i described.

as for the 'let them go in their own state and get rid of them' - this does not apply.

clans order kurds to multiply. there are 20 children PER PARENT on average in southeastern anatolia !!! and there are record numbers going to 45 children per parent !!! did you know that ?

Same goes in western turkey. they immigrate here, just 3 kurd families come, and in 10 years time 6 people multiply into 100-200 people, just by breeding. this is actually being utilized as a tactic also by orders of ocalan, as he said 'multiply'.

So, even if we let them go in their own state, any little number of migrants will start to multiply in western parts too, and doing the same thing - wanting independence. they are already doing this in a state which had no kurdish population, but was 'populated' this way - mersin.

i wont even go into if their government would fight the clans, and mafia for us, because their current existing northern iraq government is actually what is backing those. and fyi, there are many mafia intrusions to turkish government too, albeit not kurdish. so nothing would change. instead of a secular, manageable geography, we would have a balkans-like, hellish ethnic doompot here.

and something people in europe doesnt know - there is Nothning like 'the more you give, the better they get' in middle eastern cultures. not in a single one of them. it is actually 'the more you give, the more they want and exploit'. it has been so for the last 3000 years of middle east history, and it is not going to change.

i actually warn europeans if i could - kurds settled there, they are multiplying, and they are saying that they are oppressed, and seek help, what they get, and get roots there while supplying terrorists in pkk. and in the slightest event that a european country enforced their laws upon them, as you can see from the recent french crackdown of terrorist cells of pkk within the france, they turn on their host nation - they rallied riots and burned cars in france after french's legal intervention in terrorist cells.

this something that westerners and europeans do not know about. in middle eastern cultures, there is nothing called 'gratidude'. and double talk, keeping a fake face is encouraged, as one can deduce from folklore and local sayings. kurds in europe will pose a major problem later for france and germany, mark my words.

the problem is, parts of turkey except southern anatolia is, and never been middle eastern in culture. actually, same sort of people still live on similar with the ones that lived in Hittite era, 3500 years ago. we are a culture that is stuck in middle of european and middle eastern cultures, which always clash in turkey. nice, but problematic place.

and, recent insurgence of kurds, if you have a knack at history, is just similar to assyrian emergence that menaced the region long time ago. they actually sprung up from the same geographical point, had very similar cultural and racial traits, and are both ruthless against their enemies, just like assyrians who have made a reputation for violence against the people in the territories they occupied.

actually to be honest, im little bit afraid that another assyrian element is being built up in northern iraq.

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[unity100]

Ill just c/p what i said in response to a similar comment a little while ago here :

as for the 'let them go in their own state and get rid of them' - this does not apply.

clans order kurds to multiply. there are 20 children PER PARENT on average in southeastern anatolia !!! and there are record numbers going to 45 children per parent !!! did you know that ?

Same goes in western turkey. they immigrate here, just 3 kurd families come, and in 10 years time 6 people multiply into 100-200 people, just by breeding. this is actually being utilized as a tactic also by orders of ocalan, as he said 'multiply'.

So, even if we let them go in their own state, any little number of migrants will start to multiply in western parts too, and doing the same thing - wanting independence. they are already doing this in a state which had no kurdish population, but was 'populated' this way - mersin.

i wont even go into if their government would fight the clans, and mafia for us, because their current existing northern iraq government is actually what is backing those. and fyi, there are many mafia intrusions to turkish government too, albeit not kurdish. so nothing would change. instead of a secular, manageable geography, we would have a balkans-like, hellish ethnic doompot here.

and something people in europe doesnt know - there is Nothning like 'the more you give, the better they get' in middle eastern cultures. not in a single one of them. it is actually 'the more you give, the more they want and exploit'. it has been so for the last 3000 years of middle east history, and it is not going to change.

i actually warn europeans if i could - kurds settled there, they are multiplying, and they are saying that they are oppressed, and seek help, what they get, and get roots there while supplying terrorists in pkk. and in the slightest event that a european country enforced their laws upon them, as you can see from the recent french crackdown of terrorist cells of pkk within the france, they turn on their host nation - they rallied riots and burned cars in france after french's legal intervention in terrorist cells.

this something that westerners and europeans do not know about. in middle eastern cultures, there is nothing called 'gratidude'. and double talk, keeping a fake face is encouraged, as one can deduce from folklore and local sayings. kurds in europe will pose a major problem later for france and germany, mark my words.

the problem is, parts of turkey except southern anatolia is, and never been middle eastern in culture. actually, same sort of people still live on similar with the ones that lived in Hittite era, 3500 years ago. we are a culture that is stuck in middle of european and middle eastern cultures, which always clash in turkey. nice, but problematic place.

and, recent insurgence of kurds, if you have a knack at history, is just similar to assyrian emergence that menaced the region long time ago. they actually sprung up from the same geographical point, had very similar cultural and racial traits, and are both ruthless against their enemies, just like assyrians who have made a reputation for violence against the people in the territories they occupied.

actually to be honest, im little bit afraid that another assyrian element is being built up in northern iraq.

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[Carewolf]

So, let me get this straight: You are denying your Turkish origins?

And don't feed me racist propaganda, it doesn't bite on me. People are saying the same about Turks in Denmark, and I don't buy that either.

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[unity100]

oh boy did i ? actually i never did deny my turkish origins, which is unfortunately a DISADVANTAGE in turkey as of these times. if i was a kurd, i would have the backing of my appropriate clan behind me, able to threaten out any local businessman competing with my own shop, or get anyone who annoys me beat up in a back alley.

i myself would like to be in a country like denmark, and continue being non discriminative against any and all type of people. however, as i know from my finnish friend, you people in scandinavia actually do not live on this earth, the places you live are more civil and benign than the rest of the world actually is. its impossible for you to understand our situation.

and thats true, the turks that immigrate to europe are the worst of the worst here. and a great deal of who you think to be turks there are kurds in fact too.

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[kchrist]

So, just so I'm clear on this, you think imprisoning Ahmet Turk for six months is reasonable for the crime of referring to Abdullah Ocalan as "Mr. Ocalan"?

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[unity100]

this is something that is rather out of the current kurdish issue we are having here. its a matter of principle for the state. military, who have fought for many years and have suffered around 10 000 dead (most of which are conscripts, ordinary citizens like me) against pkk, feels much offended by such moves by radical kurds. actually what that person was trying to do was being a part of a move to legalize ocalan, with 30 000 dead in his score, as a 'political leader'. which something that is on the same level as acquitting adolf hitler for his crimes, if you think in turkish terms.

for example, i killed nobody, have not made anyone suffer, yet, noone calls me Mr. in turkey. actuall y, as a citizen i myself do not want any respect to be shown to people who have scored 30 000 kills.

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[kchrist]

Nice, but you didn't actually answer my question. I'll take that as a "yes".

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[unity100]

unfortunately there cant be certain 'yes' or 'no's in terms of human rights when a situation of war exists.

remember that since 2001 much freedoms of people of united states have eroded, taken away, just because a 'war on terror' was being fought in distant lands.

For the last 20 years, turkey is fighting a war IN its southeastern region, and sometimes even with the people posing as its citizens, and suddenly reverting to sympathizers of the pkk in order to be able to take cash from pkk too as they got from the government in the morning, and yet, there is still a struggle and pathetic, but notable degree of freedom of speech. this is still commendable i think.

you really dont know what the matters are like here, because turkish government, as like its people, do not like to show the world what is going on when things go bad, image-wise.

i have served my military duty in the branch of the military that fights the pkk, the gendarmerie, and met many veterans that just came back from southeastern turkey, from the fights with the kurds. ill just cite what they say :

"they are ordinary grocers, marketers, farmers in the morning, and they sell you a melon with a smile and joke and laugh with you, the SAME person tries to kill you in the night"

you have to evaluate that 'mr' decision in terms of these. actually that man is not just calling 'mr', the word he used translates as "respect-worthy" to english in full meaning, not "mr". and what it actually tries to do is to confer a respectability to the 30.000 scored murderer as part of a 'legalization' plan for him contrived 2-3 years ago, which i, even as a liberal and someone who generally opposes nationalists, do not like.

if you are asking that should this constitute a crime or not, my answer is yes.

Re:Apologies but i beg to differ

[thinklinux2007]

you're a victim of wrong translation buddy. Mr. Ocalan translates in Turkish as Bay Ocalan
But he got punished for saying Sayin Ocalan which can be translated in English as reverend, respect-worth Ocalan.
THE MAN WE ARE TALKIN' ABOUT IS A TERRORIST-LEADER !!!

It happened

[Anonymous Coward]

quit defending it

Well...

[deesine]

If you're against hyper-Turkish-nationalism, and the Armenian genocide is offtopic, then why did you just defend it? You're either disingenuous or hypocritical.

Re:Well...

[jabagi]

Please see the PS in the original message: "PS: ... but to hear so much disinformation in an unrelated topic gets on my nerves!"

Re:Well...

[deesine]

If the disinformation and off-topicality are what bothered you, then why didn't you simply 1) Point out the errors, like the number of Armenians generally accepted as killed 2) Point out the non relatedness of the genocide to the topic at hand? The link you used, as the poster below me pointed out, is anything but unbiased, and even in your response you questioned the genocide's proper legal classification, as if to say we shouldn't be calling it a genocide, when just about every country other than Turkey calls it that. Whether or not you realize it, but in your attempt to counter the padded body count, you just defended the stance that attempts to downplay or deny the Armenian genocide.

208.65.153.253

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably the judge was sentimental when he restricted access, since the measure (and his IT knowledge) are obviously not enough. Even if the video is insulting, he could ask for its removal. Resembles a genocide thinking though...

Turkey vs. the Internet

[jabagi]

The Turkish government and bureaucracy does not understand the Internet yet. The legal system still holds user generated content sites responsible for policing the content and may legally stop them a take down order (similar to DMCA take down notices). For international websites, they may disable access till the dispute is cleared (similar to freezing bank accounts in criminal cases.) However the legal system is not yet aware of using IPs instead of URLs and such blocks as this one end up being nothing more than an annoyance. This mentality causes quite a lot of problems for Internet users in Turkey but let's not forget that this is not unique to Turkey. Before you criticize Turkey, please remember that the USA hosts a menace called RIAA whose sole purpose has become to stop P2P (they'd have better luck trying freeze hell.) And this latest block is not even remotely the stupidest legal act in Turkey; 1-2 years ago the government tried to revise IT related laws and declared that every web site must present its content to the local authorities, on paper, in triplicate! It took a few months to make the government understand that this was not possible. Disclaimer: I'm a Turkish citizen but not Turkish...

Re:Turkey vs. the Internet

[DimGeo]

Moderators: I'm sure it's not that funny if you actually live there...

Re:Turkey vs. the Internet

[gfreeman]

Disclaimer: I'm a Turkish citizen but not Turkish...

According to the Turkish Constitution (article 66), they mean the same thing:
"everyone bound to the Turkish state through the bond of citizenship is a Turk"

Re:Turkey vs. the Internet

[jabagi]

Yes, that's true. But just because some government says I'm something/one/way does not mean that I am. Article 66 is very much in debate these days...

Another view

[Anonymous Coward]

# The internet routes around problems... problems like Turkey
if (substr(gethostbyaddr($_SERVER['REMOTE_ADDR']), -3) === '.tr') die("Ata Turk was a twat!\n");

Also be sure to insult the PRC and Iran with similar access control.

Re:Another view

[toriver]

... but don't use "death to Bush" otherwise the Secret Service will come knocking on your door...

(Of course this is less useful because the .us TLD is rarely used by mundanes.)

Link to video?

[chainLynx]

Um, how about a link to this alleged controversial video? Would be nice to know what the hubbub is all about...

Re:Link to video?

[chainLynx]

(Replying to own post) My only guess is that it's this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9ovvw2iSyA Judging by the 1) popularity 2) nature of the video 3) fact that it has a one-star rating, a low I have never seen reached (must have been pissing off a lot of people, like, oh I dunno, an entire nation of devoted followers) 4) It's a response to this video (flagged by youtube community) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCAynSF5i0s which has a lot of "gay" "homosexual" references and swastikas... Unfortunately I don't know my Turkish well enough to translate the title, and there doesn't seem to be any online Turkish translation tools...

Re:Link to video?

[psychrono]

Both of those links have been removed by their respective users (apparently).

Definately something going on here that someone doesn't want others to see.

You knew we need more swedish in the world ?

[unity100]

I personally see a great need for more blonde swedish population worldwide in general ...

My first reaction

[FriendOfBagu]

Turkey Censors YouTube

Censorship is serious, but there's no need to resort to childish name-calling!

Kill ??!?

[unity100]

who hoo hooo.

It is clear that you have no real insight of the situation in southeastern anatolia.

government does not kill kurds. who are killed in the fights in the mountains with the army are the militants who are recruited from iran, northern iraq ( non turkish zone), and syria by the pkk and sent to invade southeastern anatolia.

those who live IN southeastern anatolia, unless they get fooled by ocalan's propaganda and join pkk, have no trouble in stealing electricity, getting around 15% of the budget in investments and such. hell, even those who join pkk can get away quite easily - all they need to do is to come back and say 'i regret it' to any gendarmerie or police unit, and voila, they lie in prison for 2 months, and up and away with normal life.

If i kill someone and do this, i go to jail and not get out before 6 years, in the most positive of results. but if i join pkk and do this, its just 2 months for me. and sometimes no jail time at all.

and all in the meantime, kurdish mafia and clans are still active in western parts of the turkey.

Re:Ouch

[e1618978]

Turkey has 10,220,000 Internet users as of Dec/05, 13.9% of the population, according to the Computer Industry Almanac.

Still want international control of the Internet?

[mi]

Power of countries like

• Turkey — no laughing at us and our dear leaders;
• France — no Nazi-memorabilia sales; no non-journalist videos of violence;
• China — Democracy? What Democracy?

over the network will only increase...

Recently BYU blocked YouTube also...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://kutv.com/local/local_story_047192232.html/ ... draw the conclusions/comparisons that you want with Turkey.

And Ataturk himself wasn't into censorship

[Animats]

The ironic thing is that Ataturk himself wasn't big on censorship. He was something of a liberal dictator, and was responsible for turning Turkey into a secular, liberal democracy. Turkey is the only Islamic country in the Middle East that works.

Re:And Ataturk himself wasn't into censorship

[Anonymous Coward]

Somewhat ironically, the military has for a long time been the strongest secular force in Turkey. A large part of the population are fairly islamist, but the military tends to jail whoever shouts loudly. Taking the oppression away could have unfortunate results.

Re:And Ataturk himself wasn't into censorship

[phobocast]

A large part of the population are fairly islamist, but the military tends to jail whoever shouts loudly.

That's interesting, so they must have jailed the Prime Minister Tayyip Erdoan who is a well known pan-islamist. You can be sure that military does not like this man. Wait a minute! This man is in charge more than four years and probably be the next president of the republic.

maybe it's because

[Anonymous Coward]

firefox caches DNS results longer than IE???? DAAAUUUURRRRRHUUUUUURRRRRRR (0 )_( o) like anyone on boingboing would be smart enough to figure that mystery out

OT: What's wrong with slashdot

[geoffspear]

The reply link moved to the floating thing in the sidebar or top of the screen.

Re:Still want international control of the Interne

[Rayonic]

France -- no Nazi-memorabilia sales; no non-journalist videos of violence;

Actually, it's illegal to insult the president in France also. Nobody else, just whoever the current President of France is.

A little info on who Ataturk (Mustafa Kemal) is

[unity100]

and what he did.

Actually Mustafa Kemal is a jacobin, someone who is extremely in line with French Revolution ideals. (Same ideals were in fact envisioned before french revolution in france with the likes of voltaire, rousseau and the contemporaries, and put forth as bill of rights in American Revolution and united states's founding ideals).

By that time, Turkey was Ottoman Empire. The 'holy state' understanding was in much heights after the ending of reign of Sultan Abdulhamid, who was an absolute monarchist, and ruled with an iron fist. Actually, that iron fist regime has ended with the intervention of modernists in the military, the Jonturks, who was roughly french revolution idealists, jacobenites, who Mustafa Kemal was a member of. They have led an army from modern day greece to istanbul, and effected the removal of Abdulhamid.

Pre world war I and in world war i, mustafa kemal shown much aptidude and prowess as a commander. In gallipoli, most known examples of his profess in matters military. This, have put him in much renowned position among the military commanders.

It was known that he was a republican (not in u.s. sense, but in a sense that is much more in line with Danton), and he and similar people wouldnt accept subsequent invasion and occupation and partition of turkey with the proposed Sevrés treaty that effectively turned Anatolia into modern day yugoslavia (you got my meaning), and therefore he was appointed to a non-existent, fud army by the Sultan (then Mehmed) to an obscure region of turkey so that he wouldnt stir anything up.

Instead, he resigned from the military, and Jacobenites (Jonturks, as they are known in turkish lingo) have gathered up in eastern anatolia, called for national assembly to be formed without approval from istanbul government, and created a national assembly with elected representatives there.

From that point on, the government in ankara, which was a rebel ragtag's convention in istanbul government's and occupation forces' eyes, was de facto government of anatolia.

Then this government proceeded to gather the spread-out resistance movements to the occupation (english, french, italian and then later greek) occupations of anatolia, and turned them into a regular army.

what ensues is known as 'battle of independence' in turkish history, which roughly summarizes a major war against occupying greek forces, who were being used as a thug by the british government in power than, and some local fighting against the french in southern regions of the turkey. curiously italians and turkish did not fight at all, italian occupation of allotted territories have been uneventful, neither side complaining from each other, and passing time peacefully until ankara government's victory against greek forces and establishment of turkish republic and subsequent removal of italian forces from turkish territories, which italy did themselves by their decision, again, uneventfully.

fight against the greek invasion, who was fueled by extremist nationalists in greece was bloody though, and many people died in both sides. fight ended when the final greek units were pushed out of izmir, in western turkey.

occupation forces in istanbul, who were british, did not create a skirmish with turkish forces, a standoff ensued, which ended with english forces pulling out as a result of Lausanne treaty, in which international community recognized the now Turkish Republic.

Immediately after, Mustafa Kemal embarked in many reforms. This is the main issue why Mustafa Kemal is idolized.

First, he ended the khaliphate, effectively ending mohammad's successors combined rule of matters religional and governmental. Secular state was introduced, based on rationale. This annoyed the hell out of islamic segments of turkey.

Second, he instituted educational reforms. There were 1 or 2 % people who were capable of reading & writing in turkey. After 20 years, this rate has gone to, what, 70% or so, if

Re:A little info on who Ataturk (Mustafa Kemal) is

[pipingguy]

Turkey was Ottoman Empire

History is interesting, in case anyone is interested.

Re:A little info on who Ataturk (Mustafa Kemal) is

[unity100]

indeed.

not only that, but provides insight to our times - most of the cultural aspects of ottoman empire still goes on in modern turkey, and are creating problems.

Re:Ouch

[tomcode]

Sure we went into space, but now the shuttle is rusting in the front lawn sitting on cinderblocks, while we sit on the porch drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon talkin about how as soon as we get around to fixin it, we're gonna drive 'er to Mars. And maybe put on some mag wheels. That'd be sweet.

Conquer != Destroy

[Cigarra]

USA can't conquer the world. It can though destroy it.

This is about as civilized as they can get

[retrosteve]

This is arguably not even censorship -- it's just blocking one problematic website in its entirety.

Since Turkey has laws against insulting Ataturk (as mentioned by another poster, in order to identify extremist muslims and keep them reasonably quiet), they did the most civilized thing they could do -- they blocked ALL of YouTube.

The alternatives were to just block that video (Like the Germans trying to ban Nazi lovers -- now THAT is censorship), or to ignore the whole thing and waive their laws.

Waiving the whole thing would be to the advantage of extremist islamists, and to the detriment of their mostly westernized and secular society, they believe, so I'd be inclined to cut them some slack.

Re:Still want international control of the Interne

[mi]

Actually, it's illegal to insult the president in France also. Nobody else, just whoever the current President of France is.

Really? Reminds me of Venezuella.

One more human disease...

[quag7]

If there is one ugly human pathology I would like to see snuffed out in my lifetime, it is the worship of the state, the tendency to equate states with nations, and the reverence, reification, or deification of political figures.

As to whether or not the State is a necessary evil, that is still, quite obviously, a subject for debate.

But I look forward to a day when mankind - possibly - outgrows the need for the State, and with it, the cults of personality, nationalism, genocide, hypocrisy, sanctimoniousness, and tyranny that are its most toxic products.

Censorship is a sickness, wherever it occurs. Enlightened people the world over need to unite in common cause against it. No one should be able to decide *for you*, what you should read. No state should behave as if it were a parent to its citizens.

States - and their crimes - not only victimize us, but divide us as well. I am not my government. I would hope most people the world over would make this statement with the same conviction that I do.

I am an open advocate of civilization, cooperation, and the decent treatment of other human beings in the world. I am not enamored with lowercase-a anarchy, in the sense of "disorder" - but as the years go by, I am also faced with another realization, and that is that the State is good for one thing; it has only one useful purpose - as something to be dragged down, and, possibly, spat upon in contempt as an exercise in the assertion of individual sovereignty, and, in the case of censorship, the independence of the mind of the individual.

Words are ideas, and those who seek, through censorship, to control ideas, intend to control minds.

Not your friend. Not mine, not anyone's. The ideal response is open defiance, but that's easy for me to say, living thousands of miles away.

Until it happens here, the next go-around. And it will. It does. It always does.

Re:Ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

Firstly, the population of the combined metropolitan statistical area of New York City is approximately 20 million. A bit more than Istanbul. Secondly, the GP was merely pointing out (a bit hyperbolically I must admit) the lack of popularity Youtube enjoys in Turkey (not to be confused with Istanbul, a city in Turkey).

All this rhetoric, no understanding

[mschuyler]

I went to Turkey a couple of years ago. This was a month before the Iraq invasion. I was told: "Don't criticize the army, the flag, or Ataturk and you'll be fine." I found a nation full of friendly people, friendly specifically to Americans, not Germans, for sure. It has a more advanced infrastructure than Greece; it's Muslim, but secular. There are statues of Ataturk on every street corner. There's been some internal criticism of him recently. He had a mistress and he drank a lot. Oh, dear. My guide's grandfather had a harem.

Has Turkey "been bad." Sure, there's the Armenian genocide they say never happened, for example. You may say that's horrible. So was American genocide of Native Americans, or the Saxon genocide of Anglos after 1066, particularly in southern England where the countryside was 'evacuated' so the King could hunt in his own private forest without the inconvenience of peasant villages. Every country in the world, including yours, has had some pretty bleak moments.

Ataturk is held in high esteem. What did Ataturk do to deserve this? He transformed a nation, installed a relatively modern secular government, reformed the language to use western letters instead of Arabic script, raised the status of women, and did everything he could to drag Turkey from an outmoded and failed Ottoman monarchy model to a western european-oriented nation.

What has Turkey gotten in return? Derision, mostly from Europeans, though you see it in these posts as well. Germans treat Turks as third class people barely better than slaves. They buy up resort areas and then order the locals around, kind of like Americans in Mexico. The EU keeps pushing 'liberal' reforms on Turkey, but it's like Anericans forcing McDonalds on Europe. To a Turk, it feels like the EU won't be happy until everyone is shooting up Smack in the parks, public nudity is typical, there's a legal brothel on every corner, and sex and rock & roll rule--just like Denmark.

The Turks see the Kurds as waging a war of terrorism on the country, yet the EU says Turkey 'represses' the Kurds. To a Turk, it's doublespeak. It's really too bad that europe treats Turkey in such a dismal fashion. Here's a western-oriented Muslim country with a democratic secular government it imposed on itself. It's friendly to Israel, the only Muslim country that is. It's not run by a military dictator like Saddam or Khadafi. It's not run by Islamic extremists like Iran. It's a working democratic Muslim model. And it's fragile.

No, it's not perfect by western standards, though some of that 'perfection' Turks see as decadent hedonism, but it is the one country that shows how such a model could work. One would hope that the western governments and citizens would treat Turkey more carefully and help ensure its economic survival (inflation has been rampant, the currency devalued), rather than treat it as a pariah. The Turks know the attitude of western counties. To a Turk, there is ample evidence that they've been screwed by the west time and again. Even with this knowledge thay are still trying hard to get into the EU, rebuffed at every turn.

Then there are those who are incensed because Turkey takes a dim view of the kind of free speech people here seem to feel is their right. That's the kind that allows you to call anyone you want an asshole because, by God, you have freeom of speech. The kind where you feel good and self-righteous doing that, instead of feeling ashamed for your vulgar behavior.

Those who care to invest some time in understanding might like "Ataturk; the biography of the founder of modern Turky" by Andrew Mango. Woodstock: Overlook Press, 2000. 666pp. isbn: 1585670111.

Re:All this rhetoric, no understanding

[Delifisek]

:) Many thanks man. You say everything what I want to say. When you come back to Turkey and especialli in Izmir, drop me a call. I owe you Raki and fish...

Regards

Re:All this rhetoric, no understanding

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, you nailed it. This is why those of us who want to remove the impediments to freedom of expression here are facing such stiff resistance: people don't want to do it just to appease the West and they don't quite see why swearing at public figures is behaviour worth protecting. The more subtle argument concerning the evils of state power requires sophistication to understand. It is like arguing against the welfare state. You could conceivably convince people against it but the moment they realize their state pensions might also be hurt they opt for the status quo. Limiting the reach of the government is never easy in the best of times, and these are not exactly the best of times for Turkey given all the turmoil in her international relations.

Re:All this rhetoric, no understanding

[Anonymous Coward]

Taking Turkey into the EU wouldn't be very smart, economically. There already are enough member states that need subsidizing, and Turkey would need a lot of it.
I have to admit, I've never been there, but as far as I know "modern Turkey", the part of the nation that looks like it could have a chance to be taken into the EU, is relatively small. The rest is real "third world", patriarchical society, subsistence farming, honor killings, the whole deal.
So, now how exactly do Germans treat Turks badly?
Are you refering to the Turks that live in Germany? You might have a point there, but integration is something every country struggles with, not really fair to single out Germany..

Re:All this rhetoric, no understanding

[leladax]

dude, saying turkey has a "more advanced infrastructure than greece" is the best joke i heard today.

Re:All this rhetoric, no understanding

[alan_dershowitz]

Here's a western-oriented Muslim country with a democratic secular government it imposed on itself.

Actually, it was imposed by the Turkish army. And every time the government has gotten out of line, the army has put it back.

Re:All this rhetoric, no understanding

[alan_dershowitz]

BTW, replying to my own post. I misrepresented the army as an organization's role in the formation of Turkey, but I just wanted to point out that a lot of people believe the modern secular Turkey is kept in place by the military. I am obviously not an expert on Turkey, but there's been like three military coups to prevent such a dissolution. :-P

Re:All this rhetoric, no understanding

[olimox]

I find your remark....." Sure, there's the Armenian genocide they say never happened, for example. You may say that's horrible. So was American genocide of Native Americans, or the Saxon genocide of Anglos after 1066".... flippant. This is a genocide that happened less then 100 years ago and still affects people around the world, My Gran being one. Her family (the ones who survived the genocide) fled to Lebanon and died of illness not long after. My Gran and her sister aged 8 and 16 came to the UK with nothing but the clothes on there back, and ever since have done nothing but contribute to society. Don't they deserve to know what happened to their family and home, before there family fled? The information on the property stolen from the Armenian population under the guise of 'Safe Keeping' is still classified. To those Turks still refusing to understand their own history, I would like to ask: If the Armenian 'Genocide' never took place, why did Raphael Lemkin refer to the 'events of 1915' as 'Genocide'? He was a Holocaust survivor who not only created the word Genocide, but led the drafting and adoption of the 'International Convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of Genocide' adopted unanimously by the 'UN General Assembly' in Paris on December 9th 1948. Even if you don't agree with his point of view, he is a good reason to allow a free debate in Turkey on this issue. Suppressing debate is an unfortunate position for a country soon to become a fellow EU member.

Re:All this rhetoric, no understanding

[exa]

Wow. You know so much about Turkey, I'm impressed as a Turkish citizen.

I have some comments.

1. First the Kurdish terrorists. You don't have to take it from me to conclude that they are no better than Islamic terrorists. They shoot babies, they burn villages, they blow up buildings, they kill engineers, doctors, state officers, they even kill their own who don't agree with them, they use women "militia" as sex slaves and so forth. No need to say they make a lot of money from a host of illegal activities like drug trafficking. I don't know how more evil those terrorists could get. I hope you don't get such dumbass motherfuckers claiming micro nationalism in the age of globalism in your own comfortable countries. You know the kind of micro nationalism that your hostile "neighbors" finance, because it's just like that here. You know the kind of nationalism that fucked up Yugoslavia. For years they (Kurdish TERRORISTS) got support from Europe as the naive Europeans thought these bastards were freedom fighters. Fuck, no. These guys are hardened criminals, and Europeans are finding out the hard way. Don't worry. It will come to US too. Just wait until your pet country Kurdistan begins exporting their goods into US. You know it's just as smart as George Bush to start up a puppet government so you can control them in the future. I hope all that fucking oil explodes in your country's hands. Don't take it personal, but your country has proven to be the most greedy nation on Earth and I rightfully despise that. Change your fucking government for fuck's sake! What if we get forced to invade that country when they start slaughtering the Turks down there? Wouldn't you go to war with Mexico if they started cleansing of US citizens? Will you go to war with us too because we knocked down your puppet country? Damn it, the world is run by idiots. Anyway, as I said you want to find it out the hard way. So be it. Start a fucking third world war and we'll all be fine.

2. Being Turk is defined as being a citizen of Turkey, it is not defined by race. Even the nationalists define it as "shared culture". In fact, racism cannot be so popular in Turkey since most of us have mixed origins. For instance, I have Bosnian and Greek blood. Who knows where else? So, there has been a nationalistic party in Turkey, much like many European countries, but they are not powerful fortunately. However, these acts of terrorism strengthens the nationalistic tendencies, much like anywhere else in the world.

3. In fact, Turkey is much more decadent than foreigners think. There is virtually no difference between the moral level of TV shows in USA and in Turkey. As if that's a good thing :) Though Turks do like to pretend they are super moral while everybody is fucking everybody :)

wtf?

[karji]

Youtube has deleted that video.

So Google can stand up to Bush (when he asks for its search records), but not to Turkey?

A few facts about my modern Turkey

[ibrahimxeliki]

Turkey banned YouTube not because of the religion. It is because of their dictator, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. It is not coincidence that Ataturk was a good friend of Hitler. Western countries praised and are still praising that dictator. Why? Because, he brutally oppressed Muslims. European Union must realize that there are no good dictators. Here are some facts about Turkey for people of civilized countries:

1) Anything bad you say about Kemal Ataturk will guarantee your death sentence.
2) Anything bad you say about military will guarantee your death sentence.
3) God forbid if you throw a Turkish flag on the ground, it will be your pitiful end.
4) Every school and public building must have Ataturk's statue.
5) Every public office (private offices implicit have this requirements as well. At the least you will see that every office has his picture), must have Ataturk's picture hanging on the wall.
6) All students must start school by praising Ataturk every day.
7) Over 90% is Muslim, but women are not allowed to wear religious attire.
8) Over 30% of the population is Kurdish (That is over 25 million people). They don't have right to speak their language, don't have schools or any cultural rights.
9) If you claim you are Kurd in public space, you will count flies in Turkish jails for 25 years.
10) Finally, Turks massacred Armenians. If you talk about that it will guarantee your death.
11) Want more? Did I tell you about hat law? Well, when Ataturk tried to modernize Muslim Turkey, he killed over 150,000 men because they objected wearing a type of hat that he enforced on everyone.
12) Want more? Did I tell you about Kurds? Every Kurdish student must say every day: "I am Turk, I am happy. .... What I a happiness being a Turk"
13) Want more? Should I tell you about Kurds? Every mountain and hill in Kurdish region(Kurdistan) is decorated with writings such as "What a happiness being a Turk." Did you know that Ataturk said this?
14) Want more? Should I tell you about Kurds? Do you know if you say Kurdistan for Kurdish region, you spend your life in jail?
15) Want more?

Re:A few facts about my modern Turkey

[mdozturk]

There is no death sentence in Turkey. You might get killed (Hrant Dink) but that killing will not be sanctioned by a court.

Re:A few facts about my modern Turkey

[Delifisek]

As any one interesing about Turkey please look parent. Every time we faces this kind of falsefied information

1. Lie. and there was a law about to protect Ataturk from badwords (not created by Ataturk himself). Probably you can take 2 years sentence.
2. Lie. People who serve in militar may harm you.
3. YES absolutely immidiate. From a Turkish point of view Turkish flag one of the most important thing over the World.It was Turkish Custom, from our point of view our flag holly as bible. Simple do not touch, do not try to dishonor.
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. Yes
7. No. Not allowed who works in goverment. Women who works for goverment must obey the dressing code.
8. Absolute bullsh**t. A true master piece of terrorist propaganda. There was limitations before, after EU thing it became lower...
9. Absolute bullsh**t. A true master piece of terrorist propaganda.
10. Absolute bullsh**t. A true master piece of Armenian propaganda. Before the saying this you need evidences. Where is the god damn evidences ? Every evindence found in Anatolia points the real genocide against Turks by Armenians.
** And Remember I still not say any word about what Kurds doing when Ottoman empire move Armenians from anatolia to syra.
11. Lie. Independece Courts send 1230 people to send death because the treacherous actions against the goverment in war time.
12. Real Translation
"I'm Turkish, I'm Faithfull, I'm hardworker, my principle protect my minors, honur my elders, to love my country my nation than myself, My ideal to go further. Great Ataturk I sacret my self to walk your way to reach your aim. My existence sacret to my country existence.

What a happiness call himself a Turk (not being a Turk. anyone who wants to be Turk are welcome)
13. Wrong. What a happiness call himself a Turk (not being a Turk. anyone who wants to be Turk are welcome). Also we wrote
"Everthing for Country". "Flow ed Blood for Flag"
14. This is ridicilous. We do not have enough Jails for this.
15. Yes, we want more.

My Kurdish friend, later or sooner your Eurpoean friend leave you alone. Like they to against Armenians. We see this game before.

I just wonder. After USA departure how can you live in Northern Iraq. You pissed of every one. TUrks, Arabs, Sii's Sunni's any one in region hates your politics...

Anyhow you fanatically believe their lie's. Good luck to you...

Re:A few facts about my modern Turkey

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, read this article. It's not what the guy before me said about Armenians but what evidence says and what most people in the world believe what happened.

Re:A few facts about my modern Turkey

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Anything bad you say about Kemal Ataturk will guarantee your death sentence.

Not true. Get your facts straight. There's no death sentence in Turkey anymore. Those who were sentenced to death the last 20 years will only serve for life. They didn't even give death sentence to Abdullah Ocalan (the kurdish separatist leader.)

2) Anything bad you say about military will guarantee your death sentence.

Again, not true. It won't probably get you jail time. But you WILL be tried though.

3) God forbid if you throw a Turkish flag on the ground, it will be your pitiful end.

Not necessarily. You'll probably be beat up very badly (by local folks, none other.) If you try to take down a flag in a military institution you *will* be shot. I guess this is common everywhere. Why the hell do you need to do that anyway???

4) Every school and public building must have Ataturk's statue.

True, so what, really, i guess every school in us has a picture of founding fathers somewhere.

5) Every public office (private offices implicit have this requirements as well. At the least you will see that every office has his picture), must have Ataturk's picture hanging on the wall.

True. Again. Big deal?

6) All students must start school by praising Ataturk every day.

True. But not really as bad as every student has to acknowledge that he's a turk (which is not true for kurds and armenian turkish citizens. Now that's a real problem there.

7) Over 90% is Muslim, but women are not allowed to wear religious attire.

Not true. They're not allowed to wear religious attire in public offices, if they work there. Everyone else can wear whatever they want.

8) Over 30% of the population is Kurdish (That is over 25 million people). They don't have right to speak their language, don't have schools or any cultural rights.

Not true. First of all %15-20 percent is Kurdish and that makes more along the lines of 10-15 million. And they have the right to speak their language (they didn't have this right 15 years ago though). The government tv channels actually broadcast shows in Kurdish few hours a week. They don't have their own schools, of course. Do they have schools in us for hispanics so that they can only speak spanish ? I think not. There were language courses opened up by the governement but they were closed down due to lack of attendance. Nobody cared.

9)If you claim you are Kurd in public space, you will count flies in Turkish jails for 25 years.

Not true. Geez where do you come up with this stuff? You don't get 25 even if you kill a man. There are tons of famous public figures that are Kurdish, and everybody knows about them, (and loves them btw.) Being kurdish doesn't instantly make people hate you, being a separatist does.

10) Finally, Turks massacred Armenians. If you talk about that it will guarantee your death.

Talking about it won't mean anything. You'll be very disliked though.

11) Want more? Did I tell you about hat law? Well, when Ataturk tried to modernize Muslim Turkey, he killed over 150,000 men because they objected wearing a type of hat that he enforced on everyone.

Total bullshit. There were only a few villages in Kayseri (who were fundemalist islamists btw) who refused to wear the hat and so they packed up and went to Iran. Killing 150.000 people for a hat? I mean, c'mon.

12) Want more? Did I tell you about Kurds? Every Kurdish student must say every day: "I am Turk, I am happy. .... What I a happiness being a Turk"

Totally true. This will eventually be changed, but it is very unfair to our Kurdish citizens. Although the word "Turk" is understood as not being from the Turkish ethnicity, but being a citizen of Turkey in this case. It is considered a common word like "American". But again, we should have found another word.

13) Want more? Should I tell you about Kurds? Every mountain and hill in Kurdish region(Kurdistan) is decorated with writings such as "What a h

Re:A few facts about my modern Turkey

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Anything bad you say about Kemal Ataturk will guarantee your death sentence.

There is no death penalty in Turkey.

2) Anything bad you say about military will guarantee your death sentence.

There is no death penalty in Turkey.

3) God forbid if you throw a Turkish flag on the ground, it will be your pitiful end.

There is no death penalty in Turkey. Why do you throw a country's flag on the ground? what is your aim?

4) Every school and public building must have Ataturk's statue.

There is no law like that.

5) Every public office (private offices implicit have this requirements as well. At the least you will see that every office has his picture), must have Ataturk's picture hanging on the wall.

There is no law like that either.

6) All students must start school by praising Ataturk every day.

This is the stupidest lie of yours.

7) Over 90% is Muslim, but women are not allowed to wear religious attire.

Women can wear anything or nothing. They are free. I think you've never been in to Turkey.

8) Over 30% of the population is Kurdish (That is over 25 million people). They don't have right to speak their language, don't have schools or any cultural rights.

There were even Kurdish language schools, ONLY Kurdish. I say were. They were closed of low number of students. It is more beneficial for Kurdish people not to have these kind of institutions in Turkey so they can make ridiculous comments like these.

9) If you claim you are Kurd in public space, you will count flies in Turkish jails for 25 years.

Ridiculous. Every person is equal in Turkey, either Kurd or Turk or Arab or American. Claiming so will not make you any harm.

10) Finally, Turks massacred Armenians. If you talk about that it will guarantee your death.

There is no death penalty in Turkey.

11) Want more? Did I tell you about hat law? Well, when Ataturk tried to modernize Muslim Turkey, he killed over 150,000 men because they objected wearing a type of hat that he enforced on everyone.
Bullshit. Where is your evidence? you just talk to make up a good front in the eyes of foreigners to Turkey.

12) Want more? Did I tell you about Kurds? Every Kurdish student must say every day: "I am Turk, I am happy. .... What I a happiness being a Turk"
That is bullshit.

13) Want more? Should I tell you about Kurds? Every mountain and hill in Kurdish region(Kurdistan) is decorated with writings such as "What a happiness being a Turk." Did you know that Ataturk said this?

Atatürk didnt said that. Atatürk said that 'What a happiness saying 'I am Turkish'', not be a Turk, you say I am Turk and you are Turk. that simple
There is nowhere called Kurdistan or any kind of territorial place that you can call 'Kurdish Region'.

14) Want more? Should I tell you about Kurds? Do you know if you say Kurdistan for Kurdish region, you spend your life in jail?

Ridiculous. Every person is equal in Turkey, either Kurd or Turk or Arab or American. Claiming so will not make you any harm.

15) Want more?

No thanks.

Re:A few facts about my modern Turkey

[unity100]

Well, armenians always fail to state the fact that during 1915 and on, they have formed many local gangs and started small scale guerilla warfare in eastern anatolia, which warfare did not opt out killing out denizens of turkish villages. there are still people remembering armenians who killed entire villages back then.

Re:A few facts about my modern Turkey

[gfreeman]

Turkey did away with the death sentence over 20 years ago. Probably before you were born. I'll start reading further writings of yours when you start presenting facts, and not made-up statements parading as facts.

Re:A few facts about my modern Turkey

[Anonymous Coward]

2004 is not 20 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punish ment_by_nation#Europe

Re:A few facts about my modern Turkey

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not 20 years, more like 25. There was a moratorium on capital punishment since early 1980s; and it was completely removed from law books including even wartime in 2003 or so.

Does anyone honestly believe...

[posterlogo]

...that Turkey belongs in the EU? Let's be serious -- EU nations certainly have their own flaws (didn't France just ban public videotaping of violence?). But come on, Turkey's bid to join the EU seems like a forced marriage for political correctness and to create a fake sense of 'oneness' of cultures with a moderate islamic state. But these cultures are very different, and as this post illustrates, there's just no basic freedom of speech in Turkey.

Re:Does anyone honestly believe...

[Delifisek]

No we do not believe this. It was so simple.
EU chiristian and we are muslim.

In last 3 ceuntry chiristians are so rich and they act like Roman Empire and Ancient Greek.

Any other than themselfs are barbarians.

So we are not part of EU and EU community. People who buy houses in Turkey, rejects to learn local customs and build own ghettos.

Also there are very freedom speech in Turkey, you can say anything against EU, USA, PKK...

From my point there was no respect in EU and USA. They wear their flags as underwear, what a shame...

This Sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

This is pure bullshit. I live in Turkey and i really despise this. Banning DNS of a site is just a naive thing to do - for a "government". A Greek fanatic posts a gay video about Ataturk, and rightaway... bang! Everyone in Turkey is pissed off! Don't get me wrong, I respect Ataturk, but its just a video, come on!!! Turkey is going into a really dipshit state these days. And btw, im proud to be a Turk and i dont really give a shit about these kind of stuff. Call me everything, insult my Turkishness. I dont care. We are all humans in the end.

BTW; The current government are just trying to make Turkey like Iran, Syria, Arabia etc. They are the fags, not Ataturk!

and.. YouTube sucks anyway ;)

To be fair...

[Chmcginn]

This isn't exactly about criticizing the (current) government of Turkey. Mustafa Ataturk is to the modern state of Turkey as George Washington is to the US - it would be more like if there was laws (with harsh punishments) forbidding talk badly of him. (Although Turkey isn't very receptive to criticism of its current government, either.)

It's over

[Anonymous Coward]

the court order of yesterday has been lifted today

Turkey's Getting a Bad Rap

[Phoenix666]

Turks are the some of the kindest, gentlest people on earth. Their country is at least as advanced as the median European country and more advanced than many. Lumping them together with "dangerous, repressive muslim states" like Libya or Syria makes as little sense as that recent smear campaign against the United Arab Emirates. In fact, Turkey is about as muslim as France is Catholic. That is to say, not much. The EU's rejecting their bid for membership was a mistake.

It is true that their anti-Turkishness law is silly and their refusal to own up to the Armenian genocide is shameful. But Japan absolutely refuses to own up to its wartime attrocities, and most people in the West seem to have no problem interacting with them. Likewise, no one in the United States seems to recall its occupation of the Philippines after the Spanish-American War in which it killed 600,000 Filippinos. And when the United States requires loyalty oaths and engages in warantless wire-tapping of its citizens, practices torture, and scraps habeus corpus then it's hard to argue that it enjoys any moral superiority.

Should Turkey repeal its anti-Turkishness law and acknowledge the Armenian genocide? Absolutely. Not just because it's the right thing to do, but also because they're a PR albatross that obscure the many great things about their country. But let's keep a little perspective. All of us need to do a much better job of defending freedom and human rights. As the saying goes, 'first remove the beam from your own eye.'

The next generation of DOS attacks

[Faffe]

Combine social engineering and DOS attacks: Write posts on every site on the internet flaming Atatürk, and watch Turkey sever themselves from the internet. (Phase 3: profit!)

Censorship.

[oGMo]

Most people aren't big on censorship until someone says something they disagree with.

Re:Censorship.

[schnipschnap]

Hello, I wanted to apologize for moderating this post of yours as troll. However, it is too late to undo it; kudos to the M2'er who caught my mistake.

As to your current post, as much as I hate it to disagree with you in this situation (of course, I might be misinterpreting your comment), googling for "censorship turkey" brings up many results (that aren't all related to this event).

Have a nice day anyway ...

There's not one single tongue (and policy) in Turk

[giorgosts]

On one hand you have the Kemal Establishment which is the military and the deep state, and on the other you have the progressive elements that want EU accession. The establishment don't believe in tight integration with Europe because it would restrict their powers and the way they run things. They want a close cooperation (with the EU) and to be left alone to carry on with their oppressive behavior. And it's a pity because most of big European countries want also the same. They want free customs and free trade, but not accession, because it would mean free movement of people, and they are not ready to accept 65 mil. poor people into the heart of Europe.

Not ready

[Anonymous Coward]

It is sadly true from actions like this that no matter what the government of turkey say to the world they are plainly NOT ready to become a member of the EU. I have visited the country and though the people are friendly and just like people everywhere their government is by no means free and fair. The EU should not proceed with Turkey untill they are ready and worthy and able to live up to the ideals upon which the EU is built.

I'm sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

many people said the same thing about Iran in, say, 1982.

flamebait?

[drinkypoo]

Look, I realize that telling the truth can draw flames, but are you sure you want to dissuade people from telling the truth?

The 'flamebait' moderation should just go away. But in the meantime, please try to be more responsible about its use.

If I tell the world that Windows is a gigantic hole of insecurity, that is flamebait to Windows fanboys, but it is also true. Should I not tell people, and just let them continue?

We never have good Rep

[Delifisek]

We may accept Armenian genocide. If history professors accept it.

Everthing about Armenian genocide was political.

Historically from 1600 to this time everone demands someting from Ottoman Empire and now from Us.

We gave a huge empre a hundred years before entire Gulf and middle east (mean All OIL) was ours. Then we gave up.

We are more than 70 millon people. Our army was near 1.000.000 and reserved army was 5.000.000 most of them seen action. And know hot to hande rifle.

And guess what? Cypriots (total 300.000) and Armenians (1.000.000) they still want to expel us from Anatolia...

Re:We never have good Rep

[Phoenix666]

Your English is fine.

The Ottoman Empire had a pretty brutal reputation, but modern Turkey seems to have little in common with that legacy. So people in America and Europe should cut Turkey a break. It's a great country.

It should acknowledge what it did to the Armenians. It was a crime. But acknowledging it is not a sign of weakness but rather of strength of character and sincere atonement. It's the right thing to do.

Also, Turkey should drop the anti-Turkishness law, because it's beneath them. Turks are better than that. It just seems to reflect a fragile ego.

Will that ever be enough to appease Americans and Europeans? It's tough to say. Anti-muslim bigotry will probably always be an obstacle to widespread rapprochement.

troll? Oh come on mods.

[nietsch]

another one of your brethren has abused his modpoints to mod down something he disagrees with. Children!

Re:troll? Oh come on mods.

[illegalcortex]

Well, the statement "Its mostly racism that motivates these 'Turkey not in EU' plebs." is fairly inflammatory. I would have said more Flamebait than Troll. But it's basically saying "you only disagree because you're a racist." I don't think the moderation is that far off the mark.

mindstorm hack for thanksgiving?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since I'm not that fluent in english.. I started to think, What clever hack have they done with a mindstorm this time? And why are americans so obssesed with this how this bird is prepared?.. my next thought was that they had misspelled sensor..

Re:Ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

Can dish it out, but can't take it - another American stereotype.

And "don't believe that space exists"? If you are tying to show us that
Americans are not ignorant, you are doing a bad job.

Flickr in the UAE

[johansalk]

Last I heard online you can't access flickr in the UAE.

Another nail in the EU membership coffin

[baomike]

Way to go Turkey.

Once again proof...

[The Fanta Menace]

...that Turkey should not be allowed into the EU.

the conclusion

[im_not_jose]

Turkey is really stupid...

I'll second that...

[StandardCell]

Greece has far more advanced infrastructure, much higher literacy rates and a much better overall standard of living than Turkey. Obviously "mschuyler" has never bothered to make any substantial visit to Greece.

Re:I'll second that...

[thinklinux2007]

It seems you have not visited both of them. Turkey's far ahead from Greece.

You ignorant little whelp

[unity100]

Mustafa Kemal was the FIRST person among world leaders to warn the political community AGAINST the danger of the nazi, even when chamberlain and his dorkies were saying "peace in our times". Not only that, but he mentioned that 'the danger in the east' was much more worse than nazis, referring to STALIN.

Speak in only matters you know about. Keep your silence for anything else, lest you shall be taken as a fool.

Doh.

[unity100]

Actually here in turkey we wonder WHO is going to protect us from the so called 'suppressed and oppressed kurdish' oppression.

Read this comment and on so that you may see a piece of the light :

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid =18263022

"Mistreatment of kurds" is starting to annoy me

[unity100]

whenever i see this sentence.

Read this thread and see how 'mistreated' kurds are. Actually as an turkish citizen i should go and blow the ears of some european human rights people off in order to get some protection from the 'mistreated' kurds, even in WESTERN turkey :

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid =18263022

Oh fucking shit !?!!?!

[unity100]

1 AND A HALF MILLION PEOPLE DEAD ?!!?

Boy. i heard that international armenian lobby was manufacturing 'authentic documents', but i never expected them to be able neglect the possible census for a region before making up any 'facts'.

actually there are many turkish villages that were 'cleansed' by the armenian gangs that formed after 1914. some of the people who witnessed those second hand are still alive.

this is no different than ted stevens spreading around fud because he got paid by telco lobby.

Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never visited YouTube once and probably never will, I'm quite sure I'm not missing anything. Much the same as MySpace.

Silly rabbit, Trix are for kids!

Get 'em out

[RomulusNR]

Turkey insists on living in Dark Ages and the modern world should reject it on that basis. Get Turkey out of NATO. And force it to accept the inevitability of Kurdistan. The free world has no business allying with Turkey.

Re:Get 'em out

[unity100]

What you are proposing is similar to the following :

let mexicans declare independence from u.s. in texas, give florida to puerto ricans and make u.s. accept these.

Does this seem rational to you ?

Re:Get 'em out

[RomulusNR]

Actually, yes. It does.

Re:Get 'em out

[unity100]

well, actually there is a major loophole in your approach.

the right to self determination almost at all times are exploited by sources/personas within the needy crowd in order not for self-determination's sake, but for furthering the sources/personas' agendas.

in turkey's case, kurdish population have little to do with the 'freedom movement'. who actually are barking for 'freedom' is the supposedly democratically elected parties' spokespersons and pkk representatives.

the catch here is that, these parties are funded by clan leaders of kurds, which, DESPITE currently being subject to turkish laws which are fashioned (in fact almost directly taken) after swiss laws, still are RULING the entire kurdish population with thousands of years of old clan traditions - with an iron fist.

what would result from an independence, wherever it happens to be - in turkey or n. iraq, the result will be kurdish people living under some 'president' that is actually a clan leader who will be in league with other clan leaders, with a fake assembly (which will happen to be clan dignitaries, nothing representative of the public, as it is currently so in so called kurdish political parties in tureky), just like saudi arabia or syria.

the other route is much more harsh - pkk is just something that seeks to install a marxist dictatorship under abdullah ocalan, who is confirmed to maintain a small harem from female pkk members in his camps earlier in syria. it would just be another saddam in a marxist setting if pkk ever got its way.

and with the case of mexicans wanting independence in texas, it would actually be current mexican elite (mexica is the country with the worst values in income distribution, with little minority elite having the enormous income percentage) wanting to get a grab at the oil fields in texas.

same goes for many 'independence' requests.

Re:Get 'em out

[RomulusNR]

No, I don't see it. Better to be ruled by your own corrupt leaders than disenfranchised under someone else's corrupt leaders. The principle of self-determination is universal, reflexive, and recursive, too. If Western Kurds in a future Kurdistan state decide they are being underserved by the Eastern Kurdistan based government, then they should be entitled to a Western Kurdistan state, home rule district, devolved federal powers, whatever. Etc.

Independence is not always a good idea. Take La Paz County, Arizona, which went bankrupt rapidly after it broke off from Yuma County, because its territory was too rural and couldn't build enough taxes (didn't help that they were anti-tax conservatives) to run the county government. The mistake was that the state came in and bailed them out, instead of letting them run their course and have to beg to get back into Yuma.

Regardless of whether or not independence is a good idea, it shouldn't be refused. Most often, the parent political entity refuses to allow independence of a subregion because political entities tend to be territorial and exploitative. A region has value of some sort -- large tax base, oil, tourism, etc. -- and the parent entity wants it for itself. Granting self-determination to the subregion would cause the parent to lose control over its resources. Conversely, regions with no value are more likely to be successful in gaining independence or self-determination -- like La Paz County.

I've also heard of security issues on the national level against self-determination -- the parent is afraid that the newly independent region will foment rivalry, become a breeding ground for hostility, etc. I don't think there's much merit to it. The likelihood of a child state becoming hostile is just as likely as a breakaway region becoming internally hostile if you continually deny it self-determination.

Should the U.S. have remained British? Should Taiwan unify with the mainland? Etc.? I believe that self-determination is a human imperative.

Re:Get 'em out

[unity100]

No, I don't see it. Better to be ruled by your own corrupt leaders than disenfranchised under someone else's corrupt leaders.

It is apparent that you have NO idea what it is like to be ruled by your own corrupt leaders.

It doesnt matter who fucks the citizenry, when they are being fucked. Believe me, all dicks are the same. Being a turkish citizen, i can tell you that from experience. It totally does NO difference if someone fucking the public is this or that nationality - those kind of people have their OWN unseen nationality.

The principle of self-determination is universal, reflexive, and recursive, too. If Western Kurds in a future Kurdistan state decide they are being underserved by the Eastern Kurdistan based government, then they should be entitled to a Western Kurdistan state, home rule district, devolved federal powers, whatever. Etc.

SELF does not exist when you are being exploited and ruled by minorities even in your own nationality. The SELF that is doing the determination, is not the many selves of the 'nation' but a small minority elite little different from having royalty.

You are taking all government forms throughout history as being equal. It is something too different u.s. rebelling to royal british rule from some texans wanting independence from britain, or kurds wanting independence from turkey.

U.s. citizens at that time have NO representative power proportional to their population count in ruling of their country. Whereas texans now have this, have equal rights as any other member of their country. so are the kurds here. so there is no reason in independence. had british parliament have allotted representatives to colonies, u.s. might have never happened.

Re:Get 'em out

[RomulusNR]

It is apparent that you have NO idea what it is like to be ruled by your own corrupt leaders.

Hahahahahahahahaha you have no idea where I live, then.

It doesnt matter who fucks the citizenry, when they are being fucked. Believe me, all dicks are the same. Being a turkish citizen, i can tell you that from experience. It totally does NO difference if someone fucking the public is this or that nationality - those kind of people have their OWN unseen nationality.

It does make a difference. Sure, all politicians are scum no matter where you live. But I still believe that a politician from my side of the tracks -- whether it's geographically, historically, culturally, politically, intellectually, etc. -- is better for me than one that isn't. That person will be somewhat more accessible to me. There will be somewhat less layers of government between him and me. There will be smaller agencies with closer ties to the community. Decisions will be made closer to me and thereby within a perspective closer to mine. No, it's not perfect, and no, it doesn't make all problems of government go away. It is, IMO, an improvement.

SELF does not exist when you are being exploited and ruled by minorities even in your own nationality. The SELF that is doing the determination, is not the many selves of the 'nation' but a small minority elite little different from having royalty.

You keep treating self-determination as a one-time deal, such that you can only get it once, and then you're stuck. I don't. The individual, the family, the community, and the society are not rigid institutions, and should be free to choose its allegiances as many times as it feels it needs to.

had british parliament have allotted representatives to colonies, u.s. might have never happened.

No matter how you slice it, the London-based government would have only become less and less suited to rule and more and more out of touch with American development. Even Canada has been in nearly all respects spun off from the mother government, except in ceremony. In the U.S. today, these hundred-year-old states have grown in population to the point where the centers of government are out of touch with all but their core urban centers, and sentiments can be seen across the county for new self-determining states to be carved out of them. And likewise at the county level. And so on.

PS: Texans wanting independence from Britain? I don't think you mean Texans, or else I need a history lesson.

Re:Get 'em out

[unity100]

Hahahahahahahahaha you have no idea where I live, then.

Your bio gives out u.s. and canada addresses.

i correct and reiterate man, you have NO idea how it is to to be REALLY fucked. if you had ever lived in a second-third world country, you would know. let me summarize - state gets more than %56 of your income in the end run - yet you get NOTHING. NOTHING. you buy everyting paying for them again, and, you have to pay TAX for what you buy, EVEN FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

again, you have no idea. if you would like to get more info (staggering examples actually, like finance minister passing out FOUR laws one after another to get his own company's tax debts nullified and recently, a decision by finance ministry said that for INSURED (by state health insurance) people CANCER treatment fees wouldnt be paid, and then only overruled by high court)

It does make a difference. Sure, all politicians are scum no matter where you live. But I still believe that a politician from my side of the tracks -- whether it's geographically, historically, culturally, politically, intellectually, etc. -- is better for me than one that isn't. That person will be somewhat more accessible to me. There will be somewhat less layers of government between him and me. There will be smaller agencies with closer ties to the community. Decisions will be made closer to me and thereby within a perspective closer to mine. No, it's not perfect, and no, it doesn't make all problems of government go away. It is, IMO, an improvement.

a politican from your side of the tracks will have the advantage of being a poltician from your side of the tracks. he has an advantage, and he will be more relaxed and easy going as s/he is a native of the country. a politican who is a foreigner though, needs to take more care in order not to incite the population. what you say, native politician is often a disadvantage, not advantage. as said, governments (aka politicians) should be afraid of their people, not vice versa. if you decrease the factors that makes a politician frightened of people, like having him native, you actually better their position

You keep treating self-determination as a one-time deal, such that you can only get it once, and then you're stuck. I don't. The individual, the family, the community, and the society are not rigid institutions, and should be free to choose its allegiances as many times as it feels it needs to.

so you are actually suggesting that, we should go back from self-determination ? and how this even blends into the discussion ? whether kurds, texas mexicans are part of respectively turkey and usa, or they are independent they will have self determination. STILL they have representatives in the assembly in either case. its ARISTOCRACY versus DEMOCRACY that self determination exists or not.

No matter how you slice it, the London-based government would have only become less and less suited to rule and more and more out of touch with American development. Even Canada has been in nearly all respects spun off from the mother government, except in ceremony. In the U.S. today, these hundred-year-old states have grown in population to the point where the centers of government are out of touch with all but their core urban centers, and sentiments can be seen across the county for new self-determining states to be carved out of them. And likewise at the county level. And so on.

what you say happened to be so because the mother states increasingly wanted to drop the participating states off their backs - taking them as liabilities financially, politically and military-wise. same goes for federal u.s. government. rather than provide and supply for all states, federal government increasingly wants to dump stuff on states, while retaining the control still. as both stuff cant happen at the same time, sentiment against federalism gets on the rise.

More facts about my beloved country, Turkey

[ibrahimxeliki]

I like to continue to give a few more facts about my beloved so-called modern Turkey. Please refer to my previous post for other facts: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid=182 64842

16) One user commented(http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2255 58&cid=18265008)
that Turkey doesn't have death sentence. That is true, at least not on the paper. Nonetheless, the recent execution (killing whatever you want to call) of famous Armenian journalist (Hirat Dink) and disappearance of 30,000 Kurdish men during last 25 years, indicates that in practice that is not the case.

17) Another user, a brainwashed-fanatic named, Delifisek, responded to each of my item with either bul*shit or just saying lie (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid=18 265866). I will not to respond to this delifisek. The literal meaning of delifisek in Turkish is "Crazy bullet". I want to avoid a crazy bullet. However, he gave me another fact. That is, Turkish government always misinforms their citizens. This guy believes that if USA leaves the region, Kurds won't have any protection. This is the government propaganda to scare Kurdish in southern-Kurdistan. For that, I would say that just look at South Korea and Japan. USA is still protector there and many other places. In case of South Korea, USA is there since fifties. Dreams on.

18) Turkey denies any freedom to their citizens because Kurds or Armenian might benefit from them. It is this psyche that "if Kurds are going get some rights, let's not have our rights at all". This sick psyche is not seen in anywhere in the world.

19) Turkey has a network of Internet hackers (mostly young nationalist young folks) used as proxy by the military to bring down all web pages that might say about Kurdish rights or Armenian genocide. Ask these folks, they will tell you all: www.nasname.com

20) One user commented that if you do similar stuff on many other sites (like posting of Ataturk to YouTube), Turkey will bring down Internet in Turkey (http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&ci d=18265054) I cannot agree with him more. For the purpose of protecting the name of their dictator, they will make it illegal for people even to go school. In 1995, over 50 students who went western countries for their PhD education, were called back and some put in prison on suspicion that some are talking bad on Ataturk. This is just a simple example of Turkish democracy.

21) Unlike in modern-civilized nations, in Turkey secularism means state dictates its own version of religion. In the west, secularism means separation of church and state. Turkey proudly advertises to EU that the state is secular. EU blindly cascade this misinformation because the government oppresses Muslims. Sermons are prepared by the government and controlled by the government. Preacher are educated by government and appointed by government. They called this weird notion as secularism. Not seen in anywhere in the world.

22) Turkish justice system. Literally, three words in this sentence results in oxymoron in any order. The term oxymoron is usually referred to the combination of two contradictory terms. I don't know if you could call oxymoron if you have more than two terms. If not we need to produce a different word for Turkish state: Combinatorialoxymoron. Anyhow, judges are appointed by the state and are rotated on regular basis. So, you might get a judge in a city for six months. He will be reappointed to somewhere very soon (before he gets really each from bribes).

23) Let talk about Kurds again. Since I am a Kurd, I will give my Kurdish perspective. Letters X, Q, W are illegal in Turkey because Kurds have these characters in the language. If you don't believe me, google Turkish consulate site in USA and check the section for citizens who want to record their children's birth. It clearly indicates that you cannot

Re:More facts about my beloved country, Turkey

[ndg66]

16) One user commented(http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2255 58&cid=18265008)

that Turkey doesn't have death sentence. That is true, at least not on the paper. Nonetheless, the recent execution (killing whatever you want to call) of famous Armenian journalist (Hirat Dink) and disappearance of 30,000 Kurdish men during last 25 years, indicates that in practice that is not the case.

The death of Hrant Dink was a *murder* which was condemned by the government and the public. approx. 100.000 people marched because of this. So if you think death sentence is somewhat imposed by the people, you should think again.

Secondly 30.000 Kurdish men didn't disappear in last 25 years. Around 15.000 guerillas, 7000 turkish troops and 8000 civilians (from both sides) were killed in a civil war. Guerillas were hunted down because they took up arms and literally declared war on Turkey.

17) Another user, a brainwashed-fanatic named, Delifisek, responded to each of my item with either bul*shit or just saying lie (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid=18 265866). I will not to respond to this delifisek. The literal meaning of delifisek in Turkish is "Crazy bullet". I want to avoid a crazy bullet. However, he gave me another fact. That is, Turkish government always misinforms their citizens. This guy believes that if USA leaves the region, Kurds won't have any protection. This is the government propaganda to scare Kurdish in southern-Kurdistan. For that, I would say that just look at South Korea and Japan. USA is still protector there and many other places. In case of South Korea, USA is there since fifties. Dreams on.

So you acknowledge the fact that the Kurds rely on Us for their independence. Way to go buddy. And here's a news flash for you, when the oil is depleted from that area, (which is not really far from now) Us *will* leave those godforsaken lands. Either that or you think that Iraq and South Korea (which is one of the most developed countries in the world) are equally advanced and productive.

18) Turkey denies any freedom to their citizens because Kurds or Armenian might benefit from them. It is this psyche that "if Kurds are going get some rights, let's not have our rights at all". This sick psyche is not seen in anywhere in the world.

More facts less talk. Let's hear examples.

19) Turkey has a network of Internet hackers (mostly young nationalist young folks) used as proxy by the military to bring down all web pages that might say about Kurdish rights or Armenian genocide. Ask these folks, they will tell you all: www.nasname.com

Well if you use guerilla tactics for separatist propaganda, you should probably be ready for them.

20) One user commented that if you do similar stuff on many other sites (like posting of Ataturk to YouTube), Turkey will bring down Internet in Turkey (http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&ci d=18265054) I cannot agree with him more. For the purpose of protecting the name of their dictator, they will make it illegal for people even to go school. In 1995, over 50 students who went western countries for their PhD education, were called back and some put in prison on suspicion that some are talking bad on Ataturk. This is just a simple example of Turkish democracy.

I'd like to see some links-facts about this as well. By the way if you're on a government scholarship and you're dissing Ataturk using that i guess they have every right to revoke that scholarship. But again, i'd like to see more than just hear-say.

21) Unlike in modern-civilized nations, in Turkey secularism means state dictates its own version of religion. In the west, secularism means separation of church and state. Turkey proudly advertises to EU that the state is secular. EU blindly cascade this misinformation because the government oppresses Muslims. Sermons are prepared by the government and controlled by the government. Preacher are educated by government

Re:More facts about my beloved country, Turkey

[Delifisek]

I like to continue to give a few more facts about my beloved so-called modern Turkey. Please refer to my previous post for other facts: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid=182 64842

16) One user commented(http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2255 58&cid=18265008)
that Turkey doesn't have death sentence. That is true, at least not on the paper. Nonetheless, the recent execution (killing whatever you want to call) of famous Armenian journalist (Hirat Dink) and disappearance of 30,000 Kurdish men during last 25 years, indicates that in practice that is not the case.

Secondly 30.000 Kurdish men didn't disappear in last 25 years. Around 15.000 guerillas, 7000 turkish troops and 8000 civilians (from both sides) were killed in a civil war. Guerillas were hunted down because they took up arms and literally declared war on Turkey.

You kill your peope, kidnap them. Tell lies. Your hevvals kidnap girls and abuse them.

17) Another user, a brainwashed-fanatic named, Delifisek, responded to each of my item with either bul*shit or just saying lie (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid=18 265866). I will not to respond to this delifisek. The literal meaning of delifisek in Turkish is "Crazy bullet". I want to avoid a crazy bullet. However, he gave me another fact. That is, Turkish government always misinforms their citizens. This guy believes that if USA leaves the region, Kurds won't have any protection. This is the government propaganda to scare Kurdish in southern-Kurdistan. For that, I would say that just look at South Korea and Japan. USA is still protector there and many other places. In case of South Korea, USA is there since fifties. Dreams on.

You wont any protection. When Saddam was attacking Northern Iraq Kurds flee to Turkey. What if we did not open the borders ? You never learn arent you ? If any one brain washed is you.

And or My big sister married with a Kurd. And I have 3 nice nephew. What kind of brain washing you talked...

Plus I done my Military Serive one of those hot terrorist zones and I know what happens. Later or sooner USA will depart. Maybe not my life time maybe not my childs life time and they depart. So you trust that rich boy and pissed off all your neighbour. Poor Kurds they even don't know what kind of risk they are taken.

18) Turkey denies any freedom to their citizens because Kurds or Armenian might benefit from them. It is this psyche that "if Kurds are going get some rights, let's not have our rights at all". This sick psyche is not seen in anywhere in the world.

Every right after you taken, you use it against unification of Republic of Turkey.

19) Turkey has a network of Internet hackers (mostly young nationalist young folks) used as proxy by the military to bring down all web pages that might say about Kurdish rights or Armenian genocide. Ask these folks, they will tell you all: www.nasname.com

So terrorists has network to writing falsefied information like you.

20) One user commented that if you do similar stuff on many other sites (like posting of Ataturk to YouTube), Turkey will bring down Internet in Turkey (http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&ci d=18265054) I cannot agree with him more. For the purpose of protecting the name of their dictator, they will make it illegal for people even to go school. In 1995, over 50 students who went western countries for their PhD education, were called back and some put in prison on suspicion that some are talking bad on Ataturk. This is just a simple example of Turkish democracy.

Our dictator, bring us the moderny world.
Your dictator. whic is so "Mr Ocalan". Murder babys, kidnap girls and use them own service in Syra. And gusess what. When trouble begins, their comrads say to "Come to Mountains, we will protect you" and he refuses because he cannot fight.

Ireland?

[giorgosts]

Yes, by mistake you draw similarities between the Cyprus and the Irish problems. Or may be it's not really a mistake since both problems and solutions were crafted by the British Foreign Ministry sometime ago. The division line (green line) has been drawn by the British, The Cyprus Independence Treaty was drawn by the British, even the Turkish invasion had been cleared by the British before it was executed. Even now on 2007 the British Government is the strongest obstacle to the solution of the Cyprus problem (because they created it). They are also the strongest supporters to the European accession of Turkey, even without conforming to the European standards

Re:Ireland?

[LizardKing]

the Turkish invasion had been cleared by the British before it was executed.

Have you got a credible source for that information? It certainly sounds possible. The independence treaty drawn up by Britain attempted to create equal rights for both the Greek and Turkish ethnic groups, a far cry from what happened in Ireland (not sure how that got into my original post). As for the Turkish invasion, to be fair the Greek military dictatorship handed Turkey a golden opportunity to further their own agenda.

Re:Ireland?

[giorgosts]

I am not a historian, don't look for citaions.

Exactly one (1) day before the invasion, Ecevit visited No10. All parties admitted (now in 2006, not then) that invasion was unavoidable in the way things had turned out.

Yes, the greek military regime conspired with the British and Kissinger to establish the current status quo in the island. They had started 6 years before with the withdrawal of Greek Army from Cyprus.

(From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Northern_I reland)
Northern Ireland was created as a political entity in 1921. Once the bedrock of Irish resistance to the advance of the English state in Ireland, the Plantation of Ulster by Scottish and English colonists resulted in it following a different economic, religious and cultural trajectory to the rest of the island.

How is that different to the Irish problem?

The Cyprus problem now is that now (33 years after) there are two distinct parts, one an independent state and one occupied from another country (with 40.000 troops) who refuses to withdraw from its occupation. Unlike Ireland, there was a population exchange and there is virtually no Greek minority in the Turkish part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus_dispute

Turkey Censors YouTube...

[GrievousMistake]

... following the posting of controversial and highly speciest Thanksgiving clips.

Re:Ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

This doesn't change the fact that they're all tightly wrapped in cloth and only 38 of them can move on any particular day.

Please stop avoiding the real issue here.

I...

[towsonu2003]

I am Turkish, and I feel cheated and humiliated by this ridicule court order...

M. Kemal Ataturk

[Mert T]

Since Ataturk is the leader of the Turkey and commanded Turkey during the occupation.There is a huge respect to him. AND greeks do not respect this due to Ataturk and his army defeated them during the war so those respectless childs use internet to attack Ataturk's image.it is not a wise think to censor youtube indeed , the responsible ones of this insult must be punished but internet and youtube cover and protects them so youtube was censored due to the those anonymous reasons.I dont expect others understand this but try to respect !! (and this censor will be cancelled in a few days)

Re:Ouch

[Ilgaz]

No, Canadian, but thanks for the insult though. Despite you guys thinking that Americans are stupid here is a little something: Americans are going to space, Turks still don't believe that space exists.
Anyway, Istanbul (Constantinople) is big, but this was not a comment about the size of Istabul but rather about number of people using computers and the internet. Since this article was not about demographics, but rather the opression of Turkish government let's leave it at that. OMG, Turks still don't believe that space exists? If you aren't trolling, I feel sorry for you.

Seriously, I felt sorry.

Re:Thats USA for you

[gfreeman]

it doesnt matter what purpose for the site is generally used or not - just say something that is not to the liking of the state, and voila, all is gone.

You mean like online gambling?

Re:Thats USA for you

[unity100]

yea thats one of them. because state lottery wouldnt make enough money if online gambling was allowed, anything but state lottery is banned in turkey too. state fucking citizens.

Oh boy, more disinformation and fud

[unity100]

1 - Read the below thread to learn what kurds are doing in their current 'suppressed' state and calculate what they are capable of doing in a 'free' state. If what is in the below thread is not freedom, i wonder what is :

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid =18263022

2 - Turkish military does not use anything as 'proxy' or whatever. The nationalist so called 'hackers' are unemployed suburban youth who have nothing to do than to play around in internet cafes and be 'nationalist' in the meantime. Script kiddies, if you will. Turkish military is too proud an organization, have too much discipline and too old roots in order to use any suburban bambinos for anything.

3 - Turkey denies many rights to its citizens, regardless of being turk or kurd, not because ethnicity, but for some other, very old and deep reason - turkey is a country that has always been in the influence of ancient middle-eastern cultures. In middle eastern cultures, with the advent of babylon, a 'holy state' understanding was invented, and then later spread all around. In this understanding, state is over any and all, and the citizens serve the state. This, though noone is aware, still persists through all nations ever influenced with ancient cultures of sumer, babylon, assyrian, persian, phoneician and egyptian. Its unfortunately rooted too deep in order to change. Read the below post for some info about how this reflects in modern turkey :

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid =18262474

4 - Kurds need no protection. Ordinary turkish citizens need protection from kurdish clans and mafia. You probably dont know, but a clan structure still persists in kurdish culture, in which clan leaders are the god, and all clan obey by clan's will. This does not change whether if you migrate to germany or not - if you go against the clan, some 15 year old lad is sent to kill you. On the plus side, clan backs you - if you have problems with anyone, you get a few relatives and beat the hell out of the guy creating problems for you. This practice is employed most commonly in business, where local kurd businessmen threaten businessmen from other ethnic groups out of business, and if they dont give in, kurdish mafia goes into the equation. Next thing you know, the shop which the successful non kurdish businessman occupied a months ago, now vacated and being rent to a kurdish shopkeeper. You people, and europeans have no idea what a culture that still follows clan structure is capable of in modern times.

5 - Judges do not get rotated by 6 months. The first period is just an internship period, in which you spend 6 months after law school in order to become a judge. When you complete it, you are appointed to some district in some locale, and very probably work there for 30 years unless you request a reappointment yourself.

6 - You have NO idea of what radical islamism would make if the secular state fell in turkey. Turkish culture, is an inheritor of old anatolian and then byzantine cultures, and are much versed in the ways of modern world than the arabic countries when it comes to warfare, cunning and the like. What 'oppression' state does against 'muslims' here, is just preventing radical islamists from taking over the state. Which is something that radical islamists EXACTLY said what they were going after, through their various leaders - ABOLISHING DEMOCRACY THROUGH DEMOCRACY. So cut the shit. If turkey turns to iran, 9/11 would be something simple compared to what the zealots here would do. And, fyi, there is no so called oppression of muslims or anything. There are mosques that are capable of taking around at least 200 people on the average at any given time in ONE KILOMETER INTERVALS in every given city. as a result, most mosques continue to be empty as there are too many mosques

In short, you are probably a Terrorist, a PKK

[unity100]

member, which translates to a "marxist terrorist organisation that is seeking to establish a marxist dictatorship with abdoullah ocalan as the dictator in expense of kurdish people".

Mate, the rules of propaganda in marxist cookbooks are way past their expiry date. You need to use more ingenuine tactics if you are striving to make a marxist terrorist organisation propaganda. Nowadays just summing up a bunch of lies in 30 or so itemized cascaded paragraphs dont suffice - this is the internet age.

Oh boy, more disinformation and fud

[unity100]

1 - Read the below thread to learn what kurds are doing in their current 'suppressed' state and calculate what they are capable of doing in a 'free' state. If what is in the below thread is not freedom, i wonder what is :

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid =18263022

2 - Turkish military does not use anything as 'proxy' or whatever. The nationalist so called 'hackers' are unemployed suburban youth who have nothing to do than to play around in internet cafes and be 'nationalist' in the meantime. Script kiddies, if you will. Turkish military is too proud an organization, have too much discipline and too old roots in order to use any suburban bambinos for anything.

3 - Turkey denies many rights to its citizens, regardless of being turk or kurd, not because ethnicity, but for some other, very old and deep reason - turkey is a country that has always been in the influence of ancient middle-eastern cultures. In middle eastern cultures, with the advent of babylon, a 'holy state' understanding was invented, and then later spread all around. In this understanding, state is over any and all, and the citizens serve the state. This, though noone is aware, still persists through all nations ever influenced with ancient cultures of sumer, babylon, assyrian, persian, phoneician and egyptian. Its unfortunately rooted too deep in order to change. Read the below post for some info about how this reflects in modern turkey :

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid =18262474

4 - Kurds need no protection. Ordinary turkish citizens need protection from kurdish clans and mafia. You probably dont know, but a clan structure still persists in kurdish culture, in which clan leaders are the god, and all clan obey by clan's will. This does not change whether if you migrate to germany or not - if you go against the clan, some 15 year old lad is sent to kill you. On the plus side, clan backs you - if you have problems with anyone, you get a few relatives and beat the hell out of the guy creating problems for you. This practice is employed most commonly in business, where local kurd businessmen threaten businessmen from other ethnic groups out of business, and if they dont give in, kurdish mafia goes into the equation. Next thing you know, the shop which the successful non kurdish businessman occupied a months ago, now vacated and being rent to a kurdish shopkeeper. You people, and europeans have no idea what a culture that still follows clan structure is capable of in modern times.

5 - Judges do not get rotated by 6 months. The first period is just an internship period, in which you spend 6 months after law school in order to become a judge. When you complete it, you are appointed to some district in some locale, and very probably work there for 30 years unless you request a reappointment yourself.

6 - You have NO idea of what radical islamism would make if the secular state fell in turkey. Turkish culture, is an inheritor of old anatolian and then byzantine cultures, and are much versed in the ways of modern world than the arabic countries when it comes to warfare, cunning and the like. What 'oppression' state does against 'muslims' here, is just preventing radical islamists from taking over the state. Which is something that radical islamists EXACTLY said what they were going after, through their various leaders - ABOLISHING DEMOCRACY THROUGH DEMOCRACY. So cut the shit. If turkey turns to iran, 9/11 would be something simple compared to what the zealots here would do. And, fyi, there is no so called oppression of muslims or anything. There are mosques that are capable of taking around at least 200 people on the average at any given time in ONE KILOMETER INTERVALS in every given city. as a result, most mosques continue to be empty as there are too many mosques

Some more facts about my beloved Turkey

[ibrahimxeliki]

Some more facts about my beloved country, so-called modern-Turkey:

See my last post for other facts: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225558&cid =18269820

26) PKK, so-called Kurdish terrorist organization was created by Turkey to suppress Kurdish demands for independence. The head of organization, is treated like a king in an island jail in Turkey, is a government agent. On his order, thousands of young Kurdish intellectuals were killed.

27) Turkish mythology claims that Turks were descendants of a wolf. I would have respected this mythology if the descendents were no such belligerent like a bulldog . The truth about this mythology can not be verified. Nonetheless, Turks over and over in the history a segment of Turks (not all) demonstrated that they have a strike of wolf. From responses to my postings , it is easy to see this profile of Turks.

28) For the last few years, many mafias within military were exposed. Nonetheless, they were not adjudicated.

29) TV and newspaper accreditations are given by the Military.

30) Turks are not native to Anatolia. They came to Anatolia from Central Asia. As such, the current population in Asia minor is composed of Turkified Laz, Armenian, Romans, Greeks, Cerkez, Turks and immigrant Kurds. On the other hand, Kurdistan, east part of Turkey, is all Kurdish. As result, there is no Turk with 100% certainty that can claim that he or she is ethnically Turkish. As evidence, you cannot see many people with facial feature of a person from Central Asia.

31) From threats and labeling they call for me, you can easily understand that they are in 21st century but mentally living 13th century.

32) Turkish government deprecates its citizens so much that a Turk in Turkey might believe that Turkey is the biggest country in the world. He or she may also believe that Turkey is the most powerful country in the world. He or she may also believe that Turkey is the most rich country in the world where the unemployment rate is around 50% ( Don't give me official stats here.)

33) I am not writing this to offend Turks. These are the facts in Turkey. Turk themselves are the victims of this system. Now, I will give some facts on Kurds.

34) Kurds are assimilated and bewildered to a degree that they don't know what they are. Unemployment is high. Level of education is extremely low. As such, some social diseases reached to a pandemic proportion. For example, suicide among young girls is consequence of this social disease.

35) Kurds, historically, never attained the sense unity. The current partition between Arabs, Persians and Turks is evidence to that.

36) Kurds have Agha(Landlords) system where these aghas were as cruel as Ataturk. One good thing that Ataturk did was that he partially demolished that system. Nonetheless, subsequent government noticed that you cannot control Kurds without those proxies. Now most of these aghas are on the government's payroll.

37) A good portion of the Kurds who denied these Agha ended up following another dictator, Ocalan, who is a government agent as stated in fact #26.

38) "Koseyi donmek" correctly characterize Turkish society. The literal meaning is "to turn the corner". Its meaning is to become rich in a short time. As a consequence, the society is extremely corrupt.

39) Contrary to popular belief, Turks don't have a popular cuisine. Most of the dishes are Kurdish origin.

40) Turkish government supports and manages brothels. A big portion of gross income comes from these operations. Besides that industry and textile, Turkey doesn't have a major industry.

41) Turkish high-level governmental officer including prime mister, senators have to worship Ataturk once a year by visiting his shrine (Anitkabir) and bowing.

42) This is my last fact: Kurds in Turkey are becoming more conscious while Turks are increasingly becoming Nazi's of Germany. Th

More marxist propaganda by probably a PKK member

[unity100]

Im no nationalist, but when fud is spat around i get the goosebumps - same as when i see u.s. department of defense spreading shit around what they do in torture prisons.

I will c/p how the 'represed' kurds are living even better than any ordinary turkish citizen in turkey here, so that nobody reading the post of terrorist in the parent comment (all reading of which very closely resemble Marxist PKK propaganda handbooks containing the 'how-to's of effective propaganda) will become fooled :

From another comment posted to someone suggesting the so called 'repression' of kurds - see how kurds live better than ordinary turkish citizens in turkey :

As for the minority that is 'suffering' in southeastern turkey, the kurds, he is 'fighting for', a few facts here, so you can decide if there is anything to rebel about :

- 80% of the electricity used in that region is illegal - they directly steal electricity from the national network, and do not pay. We, people living in western parts pay for kurd's electric bills.

- In the last 20 years, a great deal of the national budget has been spent in infrastructure investments in southeastern anatolia, in kurd populated zone, for them to be able to better do agriculture and related activities. Now they are making heaploads of money, but all the money is taken by their clan leaders in accordance with their long standing clan structure and individuals do not get anything major. they are fine with it, dont object.

- A good deal of them migrate to western parts of turkey and major cities. the number of rapes, muggings, robberies, and other mafia-related activities have gone to such an extent that national police is unable to deal with them all, and a nation wide outcry is going on for a few years now. They move in and rent a shop in a neighborhood, then gradually force out ALL other people out of their businesses and rent all shops to their kurdish relatives. There has come up a common saying that "if you let a kurd in to a neighborhood, after 10 years all of the neighborhood becomes kurd".

Despite all these likewise happenings, they go and cry to the european civil rights people saying that 'they are being suppressed' in turkey. ill tell you who is actually being suppressed, people like me, who are civil, normal people, who cant take a leisurely stroll about antalya, which is the most important touristic destination in turkey, comparable to cannes, barcelona, balear islands, without the fear of being mugged by one kurd, and that kurd being let out from jail in just a day's time, because of utterly ridiculous punitive laws that were passed by the pressure of european union, because the current laws were not 'civil' enough. instead these laws are serving muggers', robbers', mafias' interests in turkey - rob someone, youre out in just 2 days. there are people who consecutively committed 18 and more, some fatal robberies, felonies and etc, and still walking openly around - because of the overly 'civil' laws imposed by eu.

Excuse me, but no humanist ideal, no french revolutionary approach, no civility concept can justify letting out of killers, muggers, rapists and the like in a few days. And unfortunately kurds are the ones who are most benefiting from these laws. Their mafia is most harmful.

And yet we have ocalan, and his 'rebellion' to 'save' kurds from 'oppression'.

I have paid $150 for monthly electric bill, which roughly translates into a $600-$700 bill in united states terms, DESPITE not using any noticeable electricity. You know why ? Someone needs to pay the stolen electricity in kurdish regions so that national electric company can come up in the green.

And from another follow-up post about the subject :

as for the 'let them go in their own state and get rid of them' - this does not apply.

clans order kurds to multiply. there are 20 children PER PARENT on average in southeastern anatolia !!! and the

We /.ers need to be careful

[unity100]

apparently slashdot is now starting to be seen as a ripe platform for terrorist propaganda.

while checking and participating in the discussions, i noticed that a particular user's who is stating himself to be kurdish and talking much in compliance with marxist terrorist propaganda handbook guidelines happens to have his first post at Wednesday March 07, @08:09PM, and has no other posts in any /. topic but possibly ripe http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/07/14 17237 news, doing kurdish pkk terrorist organisation talk in there.

while it is kinda flattering to see slashdot being taken seriously, it is also very distressing to see actual terrorists using here.