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Montana Says No to Real ID, Passes Law to Deny It
SoCalChris writes "Montana's governor signed a bill yesterday in defiance of the Real ID Act. House Bill 287 [PDF] requires the Montana Motor Vehicle Division to not implement the provisions of the Real ID Act, and to report to the governor any attempts by any agent or agency of the Department of Homeland Security to attempt to implement the bill. Montana is the first state to implement such a law."
Considering how corrupt the federal government has become over the past few decades, I think it's about time individuals and states alike started taking back their rights.
I hope Montana doesn't fold when the feds start pressing them like everyone did over the drinking age.
I hope they need Python or Java developers. Perhaps black bears could use some custom software to optimize their search for berries...
Now if they can only bring back the old "reasonable and prudent" daytime speed limits, also in defiance of the federal government...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That will show Bush! Wanting to track everyone!
Any fights against Bush's efforts for centralization of authority have to be good, right?
I myself dabbled in pacifism once. Course not in 'Nam.
I cannot say who will win that battle, but Montana is fully within their rights to do that. IIRC my 8th grade political science studies, the Federal cannot force the States to perform any action they do not want to do unless it is part of the US Constitution (although they love to think they can). See the Drinking Age deal.. how long was it 18 in Wisconsin before the Fed's cut the the budget to their roads for "non-compliance"?
Isn't this what Republicans used to be like? For state powers and against centralization? What would that make Bush? Fascist?
If only people and their elected respresentatives in the UK, Australia and New Zealand, as well as other US states were as feisty about their privacy, then the real thrust of the 9/11 attacks would be rendered null and void. As it is, bin Laden (if alive) and his crew must be guffawing about how they've destroyed so much of that 'decadent infidel regime' in the west that also goes by the name of 'freedom'.
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
This is the first time in Montana history that our illustrious MVD had to be ordered NOT to perform something work related.
Let's hope other states follow their lead.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
The linking of databases, such as required by Real ID has a large number of problems and few benefits (unless you are a totalitarian). There are inevitably going to be problems with control to the data (who has access?), it isn't going to stop fake ID's and it paves the way for people to give up more and more information to a central state.
The benefits are simple, the state gets a large access which it can then use (and most of the time misuse). It will be inevitably linked to other databases, and then the state can do what the East German state did.
It knows when you broke the law, and if you do something it doesn't like, it pulls you in and charges you with whatever it likes. After all, who hasn't broken some law or another?
This comment from the BillingsGazette, shows some other possible uses for the government. "We also don't think that bureaucrats in Washington, D.C., ought to tell us that if we're going to get on a plane we have to carry their card, so when it's scanned through they know where you went, when you got there and when you came home," said Schweitzer, a Democrat. (And isn't Montana the state with the highest level of gun ownership or something? Someone should shoot the federal agents, that would teach the fuckers.)
I wank in the shower.
I am a huge fan of the Montana state legislature right. To unanimously pass that kind of legislation says two things :
1. They are for their constituents interests on this one.
2. They are standing up for State's rights and not handing over ever more power to the federal government.
Kudos to you Montana. As Stephen Colbert migh say, You've got balls!
US constitution never envisioned federal government regulating every small detail of our lives, be it a form of ID used or smoking pot in the privacy of one's backyard. It aberrant to subject 149 million people to a preference of 151 million. It's time to delegate most decisions to state level, where they would be hopefully passed on to local governments to honor the spirit of constitution (that was written when the whole US population was smaller than some metropolitan areas now).
Thank you Montana! This will probably ending up going to the Supreme Court, and I hope Montana wins. The requirements for the "Real ID" are ridiculous. I don't even know where my birth certificate is! I've had a valid state driver's license for 17 years- suddenly I need to prove again that I was born? I've had a valid SSN (and card) for 20-some years- I now need to re-prove my national id (c'mon, you know it is)? Utility bills- am I joining a library? Hell, will I need 3 references, a DNA sample, resume, and a documentary (on DVD of course) of my life next?
All this does is make life harder on regular people. Just like gun laws- when the current laws are not being upheld, lets make more! Just uphold the current laws on getting a driver's license. At least in Pennsylvania, you have to provide a birth certificate and another form of ID. If the states' held up this standard in the first place, you wouldn't have to implement a secondary layer. Pass a law making the states to uphold their current standards.
Blah, I hate government in general. Sorry, just had to pay taxes....
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Perhaps black bears could use some custom software to optimize their search for berries...
If this week has taught us anything, it's that one should always have a backup plan for black-bear-ies.
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
First state?
I thought Maine http://news.com.com/2100-7348_3-6153532.html already did this with Idaho and Washington following closely behind? Or have those laws not been enacted yet?
I'm from Montana, and all I can say is: I am very, very glad that Schweitzer is governer now. Judy Martz, our previous governor(governess?) would have gone along with the REAL ID act, just to be compliant with our wise and noble leader in DC.
I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes. -Nefarious Wheel
Just wish it wasn't so damn cold.
Good work Citizens.
Gizmos Gagets For Ninjas
No one hates your freedom like we do... Uh, oops, I mean, like the terrorists do. Everybody knows it's the terrorists who hate your freedom. And of course only the terrorists can take your freedom away... Uh, um, no, not exactly, they can't... In fact only we can take your freedom away... er... You shouldn't question these things... Now be a good patriot and lie down and let us step on you for your protection.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
How does this help protect information regarding personal travel? Airlines already have information on who you are, where you are going and when you come back. That information is already monitored and can be acquired by homeland security.
Why not just require passports instead of driver's licenses? Save a lot of money and oversight of a new ID standard.
In other news .. the entire state of Montana has been declared an "Enemy Combatant". Plans are under way to use the national guard to secure and build GitmoII around the entire state.
2. They are standing up for State's rights and not handing over ever more power to the federal government.
Montana has pretty much always stood up for states rights. The one tyme I can think of they didn't was when they raised the legal age for drinking to 21.
I'm glad to see another state stand up against the Real ID Act. But as Vermont's logo is "Do not tread on me" I'm supprised they didn't pass such a law first.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Am I completely crazy, or was there a movie/short series a while back (perhaps quite a while back!) where a modern civil war broke out in the USA, and the trigger point was somewhere in... Montana? Can anybody give me a reference? What the hell am I remembering here?
The original constitution provided for the House to be elected directly by the people of their state, and for Senators to be elected or appointed by the state legislatures. What this meant was that Senators who acted against the perceived interests of their state would have a short service life. It also meant that a lot of the things we see coming out of Washington, including such "unfunded mandates" as the Real ID act, which imposes enormous costs on the states that the Federal government doesn't pay for, can't be remedied by the legislatures who have to vote the money for these things recalling them.
This didn't happen online.
By enacting this legislation, Montana has denied its residents access to any federal programs that require the presentation of government-issued photo identification. One notable example is your passport: a photo ID is required to get a passport. No skin off the nose of the feds - in fact, it's less work for them to round-file all the passport applications from Montana once the ID requirements roll around.
And good luck getting back into the country when you head up to Alberta for cheap prescription drugs. You may be required to show a passport or other photo ID to re-enter the country across the Canadian border (and a passport is required when traveling by air), and since DHS is in charge of that, they can take one look at your Montana driver's license and turn you away.
"No Fat Chicks"
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Wow, states' rights are back. I imagine Civil War II is ahead...
But really, I think that the federal government will just tie the Real ID to some form of funding, and all states will happily agree to that, much like in the case of the drinking age.
It isn't always too cold. Sometimes it is too hot.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
Maine didn't pass a law rejecting the Real ID act. As the CNet news article you provided the link to said, Maine passed a resolution not a law not to force their citizens "to use driver's licenses that comply with digital ID standards".
FalconShould there be a Law?
I, for one, welcome our new floss plucking pygmy pony overlords. Too bad it won't last.
+0 Meh
A great number of states once told the Federal government where they might stick their legislation.
...But back then, there were no cruise missiles, strategic bombers, et cetera.
The result was a very long and bloody war, resulting in the defeat of those states. Granted, the South gave a damned good fight, only succumbing to the North 'zerging for the win'...
In a country where we're so afraid that we're banning fingernail clippers from airplanes and crying over a ridiculously low number of casualties in Iraq, there's not going to be any sort of real civil war without which something truly astonishing happens.
Rights being eroded isn't truly astonishing, it's been going on since 1865.
Although Montana's valiant stand is commendable, the battle over "Real ID" is long lost. The current license databases are reachable by police from other States already, and even the security guards undergo training to recognize drivers licenses (of States and of many countries).
Passport is already a "Real ID" and may soon become required to obtain access to any Federal building (such as the one blown up by Timothy McVeigh).
The only (rational) argument against "Real ID" is that such single database can be abused. Well, guess what, a collection of easily accessible databases with a unified interface is just as easily abused — and we already have it. A New Hampshire state trooper was able to get my driving record from Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicle from his car — in 1997...
May, as well, have "Real ID"...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Just a lying, hypocritical, unprincipled politician.
Isnt this some mid-midwestern state which are supposed to be a little/extreme conservative and hence should have not made a stand against privacy-damaging concerns ?
Read radical news here
Under no government regime would you have a problem if you just ignored what is around you, stayed in you little life and never gave a damn.
Even under Nazi* rule, you would have been fine.
Of course the moment there is a glitch, or someone that doesn't like you makes a phone call, then you relize those things you never used may have been a tad important.
Tlak to annyone who has had some lie to authorities about child abuse. They are guilty until proven innocent. Even if that can prove there own innocents, you are still watched and checked up on.
Now, how can you prove to me you haven't abused your child?
That is the same kind of logic the admintration, homeland security, and the people running Gitmo use.
Along with questions like
"Will you stop all terrorist acitivties?"
" I never..."
"YES OR NO!"
"no"
"So you admit you were a terrorist."
*I am not comparing this situation with the Nazi. Only using the to illistrate that jst because you keep your head down and don't make waves doesn't mean you have any rights.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Montana's outright posting of the speed limit as open-ended though meant you wouldn't have to worry about a ticket driving through if you were going at a reasonable speed. In Arizona I still have to stick to the limit (or around the limit) because I cannot go back to fight a ticket, as easy as it might be to do so...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Maine was the first state to pass this kind of law, not Montana.
While I'm a fan of Kettlehouse's Bongwater and the liberal attitudes of Missoula, I'd argue that Blackfoot is the "best beer in the world." (Of course, it probably doesn't hurt that I used to live about 100 yards door-to-door from the tap room . . . )
Don't mess with... Montana.
I suspect that's endemic to *any* state DMV/MVD
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
In an age when massive amounts of federal dollars are being spent to convince us to spend more massive amounts of federal dollars to erode our own freedoms in the name of safety, giving up what we are fighting for in order to fight, I think we can all sympathize with that.
Thank you to the courageous residents of Montana! I was happy when Mainers passed a resolution. Hopefully now our legislators will follow your example and enact binding legislation.
Monanta - Home of Liberty!
Wasn't Montana the same place that fought the speed limit, too?
1 in 4 Maine children in struggle with hunger.
You can see from the Children of Men movie that terrorists with limited resources can only hold out so long against tanks and superior resources.
Tell that to those in Iraq or Afghanistan. In Iraq the only part that is relatively safe is Kurdistan, and there the Kurds have a vibrant economy and are experiencing a construction boom. However this may not last for much longer, not one country with Kurds whether it be Iran, Syria, or Turkey wants to see the Kurds have thier own homeland. Hell Turkey is readying an offensive against Kurds now. In Afghanistan the Taliban are seeing a resurgance in the south.
Only a small group has ever changed history.
FalconShould there be a Law?
It is weird how in Canada, the power of the Federal government diminished over the years, while that of the US Federal government increased.
The Alberta government doesn't even bother to pass a law to block Federal crap - the Prime Minister simply announces that 'Alberta will not enforce the whatever crap act' and that is the end of it.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Real ID was passed back as part of an "essential" Iraq funding package. As such it had no separate committee hearings. And at the time, guess who controlled Congress?
Many states are opposed to this not due to privacy concerns but simply because it's another unfunded federal mandate. Minnesota estimates it will cost the state $31 million over five years. Total national costs have ballooned to something like $17 billion. Congress allocated all of $40 million to pay for it.
I know it would take some work for me to produce a certified birth certificate or passport to get a license.
It will be interesting to see what happens when boarding restrictions, etc. go into effect. If this law isn't killed outright at the federal level, I believe it will be effectively ignored in many situations.
More info and an opinion piece:
http://www.startribune.com/587/story/1110277.html http://www.startribune.com/561/story/1119732.htmlI suspect that not only do they already know about this, but they're depending on it.
First Montanan who runs into a Federal roadblock, they'll file a suit against the Real-ID act.
I suspect the Real-ID act will be repealed before this gets to the Supreme Court.
Lets say, just for the sake of this argument, that I am from Montana. Lets also say that I don't have a passport. If I am not allowed to enter Federal Buildings without a RealID compliant drivers license or passport, wouldn't that mean that I am now forbidden to enter Federal Court? So now I cannot sue anyone in Federal Court. When the State court and Federal Court share a building, I cannot even go to State Court. And the best part? Since the passport office is a federal building, I can't even go to the passport office to get a RealID compliant ID card. Oh yeah, I can't even meet with the IRS to go over my taxes. I just became a non-person. Of course, that assumes a strict reading of the law, and IANAL.
That being said, as soon as someone tried to enforce me not entering a Federal Court building, the judge would toss that law out. Hopefully.
Now, if that makes sense to anyone, could you please explain it to me? I think I've confused myself.
Good for them!
Now Montana just needs to repeal the speed limit, the helmet and seatbelt law, create Vegas style gambling, and reduce the drinking age to 18.
All of those things are things the Federal government pressured Montana on.
Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
Hey, there's an easy answer for that one. Put an RFID tag into every license plate (or into the tags, since those need to be replaced all the time anyway). Then put RFID scanners into every traffic light, every intersection, periodically in streetlights, etc. Anytime a car passes without a valid RFID-tagged license plate, the scanner automically signals the nearest police car, photographs the car, activates the vehicles "disable" code, detonates the land mines, deploys the hunter-killer bot, or whatever else the state feels is an appropriate response. And if the vehicle DOES have a valid RFID tag, then it's a simple matter to verify whether or not the owner has an approved license. It doesn't help much if the driver of the vehicle isn't the owner, but that's what the RFID tags that were jammed into everyone's skulls were for. Seriously though -- RFID license plates and traffic light camera/RFID-scanner set-ups are basically a foregone conclusion at this point. They're inevitable.
South Carolina began nullifying trade laws with Cotton and threatened to do the same if anti slavery measures ever became in place.
The US civil war was the result of this after the courts ruled South Carolina could not do this.
http://saveie6.com/
Real ID isn't just about drivers licenses, it does a lot about illegal and terrorist aliens. Are they rejecting that, or just the license provisions?
That makes no sense. If those wealthy men had wanted to make their fortune in hemp, don't you think they could have? If hemp was a financial threat to them they'd have just bought most of the hemp farms. Duh.
I think I understand what your point is, these people could of had just started their own farms growing hemp. But because hemp is easy to grow almost everyone could grow it and with so many people able to there's no way any of the wealthy could control it. It's not like petroleum oil, which is only found in a few places and requires money and expertise to extract. Or forests, for which large tracts or acreage in private hands is owned by few people. Hemp doesn't require much land though, in the mid 1930s MIT did a study that showed an acre of hemp provided as much fiber, pulp, as 3 acres of forest. William Randolph Hearst didn't like that as he owned thousands of acres of forest in California.
Fact is is hemp is probably the most industrially useful plant there is. It's good as a source of pulp for paper, Thomas Jefferson wrote the DOI on hemp paper. The seeds are good for oil, Rudolph Diesel had his diesel engine run on the oil. Or ethanol fuel can be made from it. Hemp is fast growing and the wood can be used in construction. It is also a good source of cellulose to make plastic, here's a page from Eastman Kodak (yea the camera company) on "The Process of Making Trees into Plastic". While it does not specifically say hemp hemp is still a good source.
FalconShould there be a Law?
More details at RealNightmare.org. Found out about the site from a postcard from my good Michigan Libertarian friends, they're hosting a talk on the dangers of this bill and what can be done to stop it on April 25 in Birmingham, MI. If you're in the Metro Detroit area come by.
Want to improve your life? This guy will show you how!
Benjamin Franklin said it best way back in 1775: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin Feb. 17th, 1775 I was born in MT have lived here all my life. Today I am very proud of my state.
We all know the that the real reason for the Real ID act was to clamp down on citizens and have a nationwide database of drivers information for all sorts of evil purposes.
But one fact that might have escaped some folks is how states like Illinois have been quietly giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants and just about anyone else often with their bogus SSN right there on the state government-sponsored ID card. Of course, this enables all sorts of things. How about a driver's license with my picture on it and YOUR SSN just in case I want to get a loan down at the bank?
This doesn't solve the immigration problem, it just makes it worse. It is clearly throwing open the door saying "Come on in and make labor cheaper in the US!!!"
It also pretty much invalidates the idea that there is a photo ID that means anything at all. So, I can go down to my neighborhood Illinois DMV and get a license that pretty much says whatever I need it to. So we have a state making a mockery out of a number of federal programs.
How does the government fix this? Well, until the Real ID act, driver's licenses were exclusively the domain of the states. A state could have a non-photo ID. A state could freely issue licenses to anyone. One way to change this is the Real ID act, to make a driver's license mean something else in addition to a simple tax on driving. Alternatively, you will get your Federal Citizen Identification Badge that will be required for employment, banking, travel and who knows what else.
Go Montana! I can only hope that more states follow suit. Note to self, need to send in a letter to my state (michigan) recomending similar action.
I don't know what grounds they would use in court to oppose it, but then again, I'm not an expert in Constitutional law.
But you're probably right that the law will get repealed before a court challenge gets very far. That's really the point of some states moving to oppose the law, to get it repealed, but it does involve calling the bluff of Congress, which could prove very damaging to the residents of those states if the bluff fails.
How do you know, have you done any research on using hemp instead of nylon?
As a climber I'd hate to carry a wet hemp rope
The cords of the parachute that saved expres Bush Sr, when he bailed out over the Pacific when his plane was shotdown were probably made from hemp. The US government went so far as to make a movie, "Hemp for Victory", to encourage farmers to grow hemp during the Second World War partially because of the need for ropes. Now I've never carried hemp cord so I can't say how heavy it would be dry or soaked, but the gov decided it was worth it to grow hemp. Admittedly though nylon cord is light, while I've done a little climbing and would like to do more, I used to repel a lot. Off of clifts mostly but some out of helicopters.
and as a driver I'd hate to have a celluloid air bag in my car.
How do you know air bags made from hemp wouldn't be able to do the job? Or is there some other problem?
FalconShould there be a Law?
I think repeal of the sixteenth amendment would help the states and the people even more.
BTW, 16th amendment is not even duly enacted as an amendment.
It makes Bush the same thing as the congressional Republicans who drafted and overwhelmingly voted for the Real ID act.
I'd like to blame Bush and dismiss his presidency as a fluke, but all signs indicate that what we're seeing in the White House represents the direction the Republican party is headed. And that is sad.
I'm glad someone pointed this out.
I am the one true god. However, as an atheist, I don't believe in myself. I guess I have a self-esteem problem.
Thanks to all for the corrections about why the speed limit was re-instated in Montana - I had always heard it was federal funding.
It does seem annoying they couldn't amend the Montana constitution to allow for the policy they were already using...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
its not about that...its about freedom, and if you think its about driving...WAKE_UP!
"vhere are your papers? your papers please! no papers...get into the truck, ve have a camp built for you!"
its about being tracked and privacy and not completely turning into a complete nazi state or maybe even worse like the world in THX-1138...
http://www.thx1138movie.com/
sory about the bad accent in advance....
"You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."-- Fred Hampton
Montana did not ratify Prohibition, nor did Montana law enforcement enforce Prohibition within Montana's borders.
The Montana Constitution includes the following clause: Section 33. Importation of armed persons. No armed person or persons or armed body of men shall be brought into this state for the preservation of the peace, or the suppression of domestic violence, except upon the application of the legislature, or of the governor when the legislature cannot be convened.
This has been used, in the recent past, to limit federal law enforcement incursions into the state, a fact which has been credited with being responsible for the group known as the Montana Freeman being arrested (by the Montana police, who wished to prevent another Waco-type incident), without a shot being fired. This means that Montana does not feel that the feds have the unlimited right to do as they please in Montana, or to Montanans.
A resolution has been passed by the Montana legislature requiring federal law enforcement that wishes to do anything in Montana to act through the appropriate local sheriff. The intention is to eventually give this the force of law. This tends to signify Montana's sovereignty as a state, as well as its willingness to stand up to the feds.
And, for a passport, you do not NEED a photo ID if you can get a citizen to whom you are well known to vouch for you. You'll also need some other paperwork, but you CAN get thru without a driver's license.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Yes.
I'd vote for that.
Historically, this doesn't work, and you should know better than to suggest such a head in the sand approach (no offense). It would be nice if we legalized a bunch of drugs and people just made the right choices about them and everything was wonderful. Unfortunately, that's not how things work, and we have very good evidence for this. Go look at Opium use 200 years ago in China, and the ensuing Opium Wars. If heroin was legal here, and advertised for, trust me, it would destroy the country. Where you are mistaken is in the belief that the evils that go along with our drug policy, all the violence etc, outweighs the bad that would happen when the average person's drug use skyrocketed. That may be true for many drugs, a few of the hallucinogenics I think you could make a good case for, but they don't really have violent distribution methods anyway.
For those that do, namely heroin and cocaine (and to some extent meth), trust me, we're better off with that stuff illegal. Look at how many people smoke tobacco. Clearly people can't make intelligent decisions about pleasure vs a tradeoff with their health. And heroin and meth addicts are useless, and in the latter case, dangerous. We don't need to all of a sudden have 30 million of them.
I know people still use those drugs, but obviously it is vastly less than the number that would if there were not massive legal disincentives and moreover a huge marketing force pushing them. Push to legalize pot, but most of the others are where they belong.
Relax I just want some peanuts.
TFA also describes the new ID being used when people enter or leave a plane or federal building. I agree that it would sacrifice some privacy and is probably not necessary for the federal government to have.
I still don't see how this is different that being required to show a STATE ID, as you do now.
Ah but you don't have to show id to fly. Even the courts have ruled you don't have to. If you want to board a plane without showing id then you must consent to more thorough searchs.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Thomas Jefferson feared a strong federal government, and his fears, 200 years later, are starting to come true. Perhaps its time to go to Canada?
First fight against big government and for small government. Ironically I've been thinking of going to Brazil myself, however it has nothing to do with politics. My interests in going are Ethnology and international development.
FalconShould there be a Law?
...the govt can start reducing monies it gives to the state until it complies...Wheeeee
Ron Paul is (hopefully) the face of the new GOP but only if we let it happen. The neocons hate him. His proposed legislation would cripple their power.
I voted for Ron Paul for president in 1988 and if given the chance I'll vote for him again. Though I'm registered no party affiliate when the primaries come around and he's on the ballot I'll register as a Republican just so I can vote for him in the primary. Of course afterwards I'll change back to no party affiliate.
FalconShould there be a Law?
At one point, the Democrats were the party that was solidly behind states' rights and the Republicans were all about centralized power.
Actually at first there was the Democratic-Republican party which Thomas Jefferson was a member of. Back then the other major party was the Federalist Party, then some of it's members became members of theWhig Party and others joined the Democratic Party.
FalconShould there be a Law?
If at first you don't secede ...
"The Real ID plan sprang from a recommendation of the 9/11 Commission three years ago. Although well-intentioned, the commission surely did not envision the expensive, bureaucratic tangle this plan would cause for states." (from a MN paper)
The road to hell is paved by politicians with good intentions! They NEVER see the huge tangled mess that their legislation will become.
Doesn't the Constitution provide that a state's law cannot interfere with a federal law, and then didn't a Supreme Court case reinforce this interpretation of the Constitution? Thus how is this legal?
now living in Brooklyn, this makes me proud. I hope that other states follow Montana's lead and flip D.C. the bird on this one. C'mon, New Hampshire, you know you want to. "Live Free or Die" and all that.
It's interesting, isn't it, that a general rebellion against federal overreach seems to be brewing. In 2006 a number of states across the West passed medical marijuana laws only to have Bush claim they couldn't do that. Yes, a guy from the "state's rights" party claiming that states don't have the authority to regulate that which the Constitution clearly says they do.
Then you have the various states and municipalities across the country now passing pollution laws that are stricter than federal regulations because "someone has to do something about climate change."
Wonder if the un-funded mandate of No Child Left Behind has added any fuel to the fire...
In any case, I sincerely hope the states do get together and whack D.C. on the nose. The centralization of power in this country is out of control and anti-thetical to effective representative government.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
err I mean Montana. Just doesn't sound the same, sorry John Ratzenberger.
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
Senators are elected by residents of the state they serve. There are every bit as devoted to their states after the 17th Amendment as before.
What this meant was that Senators who acted against the perceived interests of their state would have a short service life.
What has changed? Nothing. Opponents can savage them in the next election, the same as Republican Senators got saved in the last election for voting against better body armor for the troops.
But the real reason going back to the old system is a horrible idea: gerrymandering. The House was supposed to be the chamber most responsive to the moods of the citizenry, with the Senate keeping more of the status quo. Instead, thanks the gerrymandering, it's the other way around - and it's only gotten worse with computer software that can optimize your party's seats. Take the Texas debacle: Republicans, who got 56% of the vote, redrew the districts so they got 76% of the seats.
Repealing the 17th Amendment is like term limits: might seem like a good idea on the face, but not only does it not fix any of the problems it was meant to solve, it creates new ones.
The GOP is for states rights when it suits their interests, and against them when it suits their interests. Just as they aren't really against "big government", they're against social spending - bring on the military spending and the corporate pork projects. Or how they talk about keeping government out of people's lives, and then turn around and ban gay marriage. Democrats are the same way, of course - but they haven't spent the last few decades being two faced hypocrites about it.
The Real ID act is a very scary law for transsexuals. They will not be able to change their legal gender with this act as the law is currently stated, causing extreme strife for the transgendered. Of course, none of you care.
Think about that the next time you go through airport security with an ID that shows Male but you look Female.
It's voluntary though, and it's only on a limited number of roads. If you use the toll roads regularly, you can get a FasTrack box that you put inside your windshield. The pay stations have a RFID reader. You just drive through and the system will automatically bill you. Even if you don't have the box and pay cash, they have cameras that monitor the license plate of everyone who drives through. If you were to run through the pay station without paying, you'd get a bill from your car registration (and a ticket for not following the instructions).
http://www.thetollroads.com/home/getfastrak.htm
I have a feeling that this system is going to show up on all freeways in Southern California. It's pretty much the only way to cut down on traffic congestion. Either that or wait until the comet hits.
My other first post is car post.
the more they take rights from the populace the more they have to spend to make sure you aren't exercising the rights you used to have. ID cards will be expensive to no good use, the readers will be expensive, administering will be expensive, upgrading when someone bad cracks the system will be expensive, etc.
Where do they get this money? From you. Well, what are you going to do? Assemble for protest (can't, that right has gone), vote against the changes (can't, federal requirements mean all parties will have to comply), remove the government (TERRORIST!!!!!).
So even if you don't use the rights, you'll pay to have them removed from others. You happy with someone else spending your money?
That law ranks up there with trying to legislate pi to equal 3.
Seriously, people complain about illegal employment, illegal immigration, identity theft, and terrorist watch lists that block people by last name.
Well, guys, if you want to fix that, you need reliable, hard-to-forge identification. And the people who need to carry that identification are the people who are entitled to services and privileges--the citizens.
The state would have to shut down without the federal tax dollars being redistributed there.
m l)
Montana got $1.58 back for every $1.00 contributed in Federal Taxes! (http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.ht
The Federal government knows Montana is it's bitch.
Blar.
The article makes it sound as tho the Gov and the Dem Sen from Montana said hell no, and the Rep Sen (Denny Rehberg) was a complete weasel (originally supporting Patriot Act because he was told to, then later opposing it when he found out real people didn't like it -- a guy with no morals or convictions of his own apparently).
As a Republican, I am saddened -- but amused, because like Mark Twain I ne'er had much faith in them liars -- when I see how the Republican Party has come to mean nothing but a mouthpiece for the latest bribes...
It's just that nothing happens to them. Often they are released back into the community. Even if you dumped them over the border, they come back.
This ID card will not help with keeping illegal aliens out of the country because we don't DO anything when they are caught.
It WILL allow the government more control and easier suveilance of all citizens. This I cannot abide.
Blar.
Would this kind of action give the federal government reason to remove the governor and state legislator from their positions and charge them with terrorism? Technically, their law has no force as the federal law always takes precedence. If they specifically instruct state officials to ignore the federal statute, are they guilty of sedition, or even treason? The point is, if the states start resisting the federal government, can we expect a lock down of the authority of the state governments?
Stupid is as stupid dies.
C'mon, New Hampshire, you know you want to. "Live Free or Die" and all that.
I just needs to get through the small (but increasingly socialist, with strong ties to the DNC) senate. The House vote was 268-8, and the Governor is on board.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
North Carolina is?
This little adage is one of those things that people only say because it sounds nice. It has absolutely no basis in reality.
Yes, the highways may suffer, big deal.
... at that point the States rolled over and abdicated all of their power?
So as I understand it, the Feds implemented the Income Tax, then they raised the Income Tax on States' citizens, then offered to give some of it back to the States as Highway Grants, and
It must be more complicated than that, no?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I think you might be a victim of the revisionism that happened primarily 1865-1890 - or secondary "history" books that were influenced by this. Try reading some of the Southern announcements of secession. They're all pretty clear it's about "property". If you read what's written (particularly by southerners) after the end of the war, remember that they then had a reason to present secession as something that the North had "forced" them into.
...interesting that my captcha to post this is "redneck"...:-)
So much has been forgotten since the American Civil War, and what little is remembered is blamed on slavery. The Civil War was a fight for States Rights. And ever since, those rights have been being eroded. With few exceptions, we are not a united set of states so much as a republic with localized sub-governments.
I applaud Montana for standing up against this law and the continued intrusion of the federal government into state issues.
-Rick
PS: I am glad the North won the war and put an end to legal slavery in the US, but that moral victory was accompanied by the reduction of power in state governments.
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
Montana also has a bill in process to remove Montana-made suppressors from the National Firearms Act, allowing them to be bought over the counter. It's HB366, and here's the excerpt.
Section 4. Prohibition. A personal firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition that is manufactured commercially or privately in Montana and that remains within the borders of Montana is not subject to federal law or federal regulation, including registration, under the authority of congress to regulate interstate commerce. It is declared by the legislature that those items have not traveled in interstate commerce. This section applies to a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition that is manufactured in Montana from basic materials and that can be manufactured without the inclusion of any significant parts imported from another state. Generic and insignificant parts that have other manufacturing or consumer product applications are not firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition, and their importation into Montana and incorporation into a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition manufactured in Montana does not subject the firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition to federal regulation. "Generic and insignificant parts" includes but is not limited to springs, screws, nuts, and pins. It is declared by the legislature that basic materials, such as unmachined steel and unshaped wood, are not firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition and are not subject to congressional authority to regulate firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition under interstate commerce as if they were actually firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition. The authority of congress to regulate interstate commerce in basic materials does not include authority to regulate firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition made in Montana from those materials. Firearms accessories that are imported into Montana from another state and that are subject to federal regulation as being in interstate commerce do not subject a firearm to federal regulation under interstate commerce because they are attached to or used in conjunction with a firearm in Montana.
Go Montana!
'Be always mindful, even when ditch-digging.' --D. T. Suzuki
I worry that the Article 4 section 1 of the constitution could be interpreted to mean congress has the right to force states to adopt real ID. The article states that congress can enact laws to prescribe the way records are proven between states. I wonder if they can use that to force this issue on states.
Article. IV. - The States
Section 1 - Each State to Honor all others
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
The perversity of the Universe tends towards a maximum. - O'Toole's Corollary
We need an Amendment that defines "interstate commerce" and "necessary and proper" in a way that matches both the original intent of the words as well as plain commmon sense, instead of letting it mean the radical thing that the courts redefined it to mean.
It's absolutely ludicrous that the various states' rejection of Real ID, federal decisions about what doctors are allowed to prescribe, etc, is somehow viewed as defiant or objectionable. It's simple democracy, and it's not cool that our distant rulers in DC are working against that.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Industrial hemp - hemp fiber - was a cash crop in the eighteeth century. Used in the manufacture of rope, canvas, sacking materials, and so on.
"Canvas" got it's name from hemp, cannabis.
cotton gin
Thomas Jefferson invented a gin mill for hemp.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Try to take a plane flight without showing id. FUD BS!!!
FalconShould there be a Law?
Let's see:
1)
Refer to my initial comment, about you being some kind of idiot. There WILL be a national licensing service sooner or later. Implementing a fascist social structure demands nothing less than the complete centralized control of anything and everything that can be used to manipulate or monitor the people.2)
I'm sure you are aware of the existence of powered RFID. The tags on license plates get replaced yearly anyway, and if the batteries die early it's a perfect chance for the police to issue some large fines and generate some revenue for the city. Assuming you've actually lived on the planet Earth at some point, you're fully aware that this is exactly the kind of thing that cities will be overjoyed to implement.3)
As if the government gives a flying shit about what organized crime can do. Besides, if fascism has one redeeming quality, it's that crime can be almost totally surpressedOf course, the information in the RFID tags needs to be nothing more than an ID number encrypted along with some random salt, which a central computer system can then use to look-up the driver's information from a (hopefully) secure database. Putting any more information in the tags would be a pointless waste, and a serious security problem. But as I said before, it's not as if the government would care.
Probably it is more prevalent in the Northeast. In the Northeast, and in Chicagoland, there's so much traffic using the highways that if almost all the highways have toll booths, they can just put toll booths at regular intervals. Not everyone using the tollways of Illinois passes a booth at every trip, but enough do that relatively small tolls at each booth can maintain the system. (The one indisputable freeway that I took in Northern Illinois was horribly maintained.)
In states with less population, it can't work that way. The other main tollway I've travelled is in Kansas; they manage by having a booth at each end of its tollway (which covers pieces of at least three interstates) and a booth at each exit in between, excepting "rest stop" exits which have food, gas and not much else. No secret where the tollbooths are--they're listed on the tickets people not using the RFID tags get. The tolls are higher, but they're paid all at once when you get off.
Kansas is threatening to turn one of their state highways into a tollway. My unofficial theory is that they want to do it because that state highway is a good way to escape the stretch of tollway between Lawrence and the eastern endpoint--at least, that's how I've used it!
There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney