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Apple To Grant All Labels DRM-Free Distribution

SexCaptain writes "MacRumors.com reveals a letter circulated by Apple to all producers of content for the iTunes Store, announcing that from May onward they can sell their music at higher quality and free of DRM. Hopefully this opens the doors for labels like Netwerk. This is a big step in the right direction, although it's unclear exactly what Apple means by 'higher quality,' and there is no mention of price changes. (Apple charges $0.30 more per song for DRM-free content from EMI and encodes it at 256K.) Quoting from the letter: 'Many of you have reached out to iTunes to find out how you can make your songs available higher quality and DRM-free," Apple wrote in the communication. "Starting next month, iTunes will begin offering higher-quality, DRM-free music and DRM-free music videos to all customers."

410 comments

  1. Is Apple going to extend that grant? by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 0, Troll

    A good start (if the labels take up Apples offer), but is Apple going to extend that grant to itself (for the DRM that attempts to prevents you from running os x on other PCs) and movie studios (particularly the Disney studio)?

    Or is it just other people's content they want drm-free?

    --
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    1. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by Penguinisto · · Score: 1
      Sure - as soon as you want to let us know how much music Apple produces and sells...

      (not trying to be smarmy or anything, but seriously - Jobs, Apple et al have been talking about making music DRM-free... hasn't said jack about software or hardware. I'll take any step in the right direction --no matter how small or niche-y it may be-- over none at all, y'know?)

      /P

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 0, Troll

      Sure - as soon as you want to let us know how much music Apple produces and sells...

      (not trying to be smarmy or anything, but seriously - Jobs, Apple et al have been talking about making music DRM-free


      As you point out, Jobs, Apple et al have been talking about making products they don't produce DRM free.

      Apple talkin' the talk without walkin' the walk again.

      --
      There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
    3. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't normally respond to trolls, but it brings up an interesting topic for conversation, so why not?

      Why is DRM okay in some contexts, but not others? Is it evil to apply DRM to music but not software? What about movies?

      I think that music is something that we are naturally possessed with - it probably coincides with the emergence of humanity. We hum, we whistle, we walk around with our Walkmen and our iPods. We even amended our copyright law to give music a special exemption for format-shifting and copying for personal use. I think this is why DRM on music offends us so much... DRM prevents us from doing something that we as a society have already decided we should be able to do!

      Movies and software, on the other hand, aren't in the same ball park. Movies have only recently become part of our culture, and it was only 30 years ago that you could realistically bring them into your home. It's only been about 5 years since it became feasible to walk around with them, and that's still awkward. Maybe we'll feel more strongly about movies as technology makes format shifting more important. It already irritates me that I have to jump through hoops to back up stuff.

      Software - I think it will be a long time before society gets worked up over software... after all, the best software is invisible. Besides, the whole concept of format-shifting is hard to apply to software. I mean, the kind of software application that you expect to work on you Desktop computer is pretty unsuitable for your cell phone.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    4. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by renegadesx · · Score: 0

      We need a new karma level low enough for this troll to do justice

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    5. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 2, Informative

      You make some reasonable points, but I couldn't disagree with you more about software & movies. The point you used to illustrate software was particularly misguided:

      I mean, the kind of software application that you expect to work on you Desktop computer is pretty unsuitable for your cell phone.

      You do realise the iPhone is going to run OS X don't you? Do you realise that you would be able to run OS X in a vmware window if Apple didn't actively prevent you from doing so?

      --
      There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
    6. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by antiaktiv · · Score: 1

      In my oh-so-humble opinion, it's because most people see music as something going on in the background, rather than something that should be given undivided attention, the way film and software (your examples, not mine), usually are.

      So, all the record labels need to do is find artists that are worth just listening to, and they can load it with as much DRM as they want.

    7. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm very skeptical that it will be OSX in anything but name, or possibly kernel. But almost any application that is suitable for a phone would not be very usable on a desktop and vice versa. Video games have a much higher threshold on a desktop. Excel would be a travesty on a phone. Even the VNC version that I have on my desktop would positively suck on a phone. Even phone-centered apps like Address Book or iCal are not suited to the tiny screen on the iPhone.

      Even if the iPhone worked perfectly with all OSX applications, it would be but one example in an ocean of counter-examples. I have never seen a Palm or WindowsMobile application that is as functional as it's desktop equivalent.

      I'm not saying that DRM doesn't restrict software - clearly it does (as in your vmware example). I'm just saying that we, as a society, seem to hold software to a different standard than music, and I was simply pontificating on why I thought that was the case.

      I think that video is somewhere in between the two - perhaps when it takes less than 2 hours to encode a H264 movie people will start to care more. Right now, ripping a CD takes about 2 minutes and it's pretty bulletproof.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    8. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      We hum, we whistle, we walk around with our Walkmen and our iPods.
      We also have vivid imaginations and have been play-acting since we were little kids, many of us leave the TV on in the background or listen to story-telling on the radio. Music is no more "special" than all the variety of forms of story telling, including movies.

      We even amended our copyright law to give music a special exemption for format-shifting and copying for personal use.
      You are going to have provide a citation for that one - hint it's not true. The only thing resembling an "ammendment" regarding music is the Record Rental Ammendment of 1984 that specifically made it illegal to rent music in the same fashion that movies are rented by blockbuster.
    9. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by travail_jgd · · Score: 3, Informative

      I agree with your point, but not your rationale.

      I'm *gasp* 35, and for as long as I can remember music has been freely copyable. Radios with built-in cassette players could often record "free" [1] music directly from the radio, without any external microphone. One radio station even spent Sunday nights playing entire sides of LPs.

      The CD era made it even easier to make high quality tapes. It was easy to record, and in some cases the quality was better than a mastered cassette. Some of the "portable systems" [2] could actually calculate optimal song orders to put as many tracks on a tape as possible.

      My point is that at least two generations have grown up with the ideas of "free music" and "freely copying music". Right or wrong, it's a part of the American culture. The sudden appearance of DRM when freely copied/format shifted music has been permitted for decades is a culture shock, and is only turning people away from the big labels.

      1: Sure, someone was paying for it, but to the end user the only costs were electricity and cassettes.
      2: aka boom boxes. I'm a child of the 80's.

    10. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by jonwil · · Score: 1

      I am sure that if Disney said that that Apple could distribute its content without DRM, apple would do it.

    11. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by node+3 · · Score: 1

      We also have vivid imaginations and have been play-acting since we were little kids, many of us leave the TV on in the background or listen to story-telling on the radio. Music is no more "special" than all the variety of forms of story telling, including movies. Music is not a form of story telling. Music can tell a story, but that's not a requisite. Music is an exceptionally unique aspect of being human. There is nothing else like it whatsoever.

      Music is so completely different from film (and I don't just mean one is A/V while the other is just A), that I have to wonder if you meant to say something completely different. I'm just as confused as if someone had to said there's no difference between B&W and color film.
    12. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by ZombieRoboNinja · · Score: 0

      Last I heard, Apple DOESN'T use DRM in its software or hardware. It's copyrighted and largely closed-source and so on, but not DRM'ed. So... yeah.

    13. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *yawns* - That can't possibly be the best you can come up with is it?

    14. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      Radios with built-in cassette players could often record "free" [1] music directly from the radio, without any external microphone.

      Has it not ocurred to you that you can still do this?

      The CD era made it even easier to make high quality tapes.

      And I'll bet you didn't mind the loss of quality in exchange for the ability to format-shift, did you? Funny how people don't feel the same way anymore.

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    15. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by prockcore · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Well, depends on your definition of DRM. Apple's Shake requires activation.. even the demo does.

    16. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      I'm very skeptical that it will be OSX in anything but name, or possibly kernel. But almost any application that is suitable for a phone would not be very usable on a desktop and vice versa. Video games have a much higher threshold on a desktop. Excel would be a travesty on a phone. Even the VNC version that I have on my desktop would positively suck on a phone. Even phone-centered apps like Address Book or iCal are not suited to the tiny screen on the iPhone.


      If it has :

      WebView
      NSTextField
      NSControl

      that implies an awful lot of cocoa being ported. Once that's done a lot of the frameworks (address book etc) could come along too - *if* there's enough space for them. Frankly, they couldn't have Safari on there if all the supporting cocoa frameworks didn't come too.

      The guts of most applications will work fine. The GUI, as you say, can't be shared between the two, but to hook up a new vastly simpler GUI and recompile for another chip would be pretty trivial. I can't see why something like a spreadsheet wouldn't work quite well - just have minimal toolbars etc and show only the cells - pop up number pad for entry. You couldn't use the GUI from MS Excel or Word, but that's no loss.

      Probably memory constraints are more of a problem. Perhaps many apps would have to be tuned for that. I'm sure they won't release an SDK for a while as development might still be a bit hairy, but when they get up to 32MB phones, possibly with hard disk, and 1GHZ processors, why not? Perhaps they can launch a small tablet that uses the same OS X nano too, and amortise development costs further.

      At that point it'll become very important how close the APIs are for the phone and desktop and they'd be crazy not to have thought this through and gone for convergence.
    17. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by bubblah · · Score: 1

      That would be the interesting thing to see, personally I think this is a trial balloon, I would lay odds that they are watching the peer networks and bittorrent networks to see how many of the DRM files escape onto the peer networks to build out a better business case for DRM and possibly get new laws. Ok, conspiracy central kind of idea, but it makes sense.

    18. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Remember that iTunes and Quicktime on Windows are supposedly built on the Carbon framework even though they run on Windows. I don't doubt that there will be OSX technology in the iPhone, I'm just very skeptical that it will be OSX in any real sense. But I don't know, Apple has surprised me before.

      Either way, my point was that to the average person, software does not need to be portable like music does. They expect to buy a music CD and be able to play it on any CD player. They expect that CD to import into iTunes and play on their iPod. They don't see why they should buy the same music over and over again. They do not seem to have this problem with software. People regularly buy a separate copy of the same software for each computer (home and work, for instance). They don't expect Windows software to work on their cell phone. It's just not an expectation that people have.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    19. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by MightyYar · · Score: 1
      Music is special, and it does not necessarily tell a story. A lot of music does not even have lyrics. Maybe you go around play-acting as much as I hum, but frankly that sounds a little strange to me :) Also, portable TVs (and now DVDs) have been available for a really long time, but they never saw anywhere near the popularity of portable music players - even radio-only players.

      You are going to have provide a citation for that one I think you are correct - egg on my face. I was sure that it was part of the Copyright Act of 1976, but I can't find it. I think that I was mixing up the fair-use test with the special provision for libraries and archives. Sorry... IANAL. This demonstrates why you should treat a random Slashdot post as even less reliable than Wikipedia.

      Nevertheless, the fact that they codified the Serial Copy Management System in 1992 so that you could only make first-generation copies is indicative of the acceptability and widespread practice of format-shifting. I maintain that most people consider it their fair right to move their music to other formats if they want.
      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    20. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I don't think that our rationales collide - I think that they are complementary :) I'm about the same age, and I spent a good portion of my youth making really high-quality tapes from my CDs. I'd spend extra on the good Type II or IV tapes and play with the recording levels... no wonder I turned into a geek engineer! I even figured out that a hi-fi VCR would give you almost CD-quality sound, and so I started "mastering" my mixes on VHS and then making cassette copies of them. I also had a local station that played the whole record late Sunday night.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    21. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Has it not ocurred to you that you can still do this? Cassettes are dead, man, and the updated technology no longer includes this capability. For instance, you can't get a satellite or digital radio that will directly record to a digital file.

      And I'll bet you didn't mind the loss of quality in exchange for the ability to format-shift, did you? Funny how people don't feel the same way anymore. I can't speak for the parent, but I spent a lot of time in the cassette era trying to preserve quality. Still, a tape was more than good enough in a portable or in the car. MP3s are lossy, and most people seem happy with them, so I don't know what you mean when you say that "people don't feel the same way anymore."

      The big difference between MP3 and tape is the convenience. You can stick a CD into iTunes and have all of your music in 2 minutes on a big hard drive. You don't have to lug tapes around anymore, or spend an hour copying the album to tape. Instead of hovering by the radio waiting for a song that you like to come on, you can just fire up Kazaa and download the track. If MP3s had resolution no better than tape, they'd still be popular.

      Video might be next - I can't be the only one who grew up in a household where my father taped movies off of HBO instead of buying them at the store...
      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    22. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by ToTheBone · · Score: 1

      People do still feel the same.
      Going from CD to a lossy format does have a significant loss of quality.
      The side effects might be different, (once you learn to recognise them) they're quite apparent, especially at low bitrates often offered for download.

      I did dislike the loss of quality but the convenience of tapes at the time seemed worth it.
      Nowadays with cheap portable storage available it's actually quite amazing to me how much loss of quality the general public seems to easily accept when it's technically not at all necessary any more.

    23. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      Cassettes are dead, man, and the updated technology no longer includes this capability.

      You're being obtuse. I didn't say anything about satellite or digital radio. The parent refered to recording songs off of FM radio, which you can still do today. And why do you automatically assume cassette tapes? Why not directly to your computer?

      Still, a tape was more than good enough in a portable or in the car. MP3s are lossy, and most people seem happy with them, so I don't know what you mean when you say that "people don't feel the same way anymore."

      You're ignoring the context. The parent was talking about DRM being a "culture shock" because it apparently prevents the kind of format-shifting described above. In fact, it permits exactly the same loss-inducing kind.

      My point is that where once it was "acceptable" to record a CD onto a tape, incurring a loss of quality (perceptible or not), in the DRM-era it is "unacceptable" to incur any loss or face any obstacle when format-shifting. Saying "burn/rerip" can get you shot in some circles, even though it actually works.

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    24. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      The grandparent was talking about CD-to-tape as a counter-example to DRM. Not CD-to-lossy digital. If you had read the thread, you might have caught that.

      I did dislike the loss of quality but the convenience of tapes at the time seemed worth it.

      My point: This is the kind of thing people don't say about DRM. Incurring a loss in exchange for added convenience isn't widely accepted anymore. I personally find this kind of silly, and especially silly when it's highlighted in a comment like that above.

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    25. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm not PURPOSELY being obtuse :)

      I meant that no one markets a product like the old boom boxes, where recording from the radio was as easy as holding down two buttons when you wanted to record. The radio shark is cool, but is not built-in to any "boom box" type device that I am aware of. Still, I would have killed for it and Snaptune when I was a kid.

      People are now used to random access - the old "wait for the tape to record the radio in real-time" thing was a drag even in the old days, and it sure can't compete with Kazaa today. I actually do the modern equivalent - I listen to Pandora all day and when I hear a great song I fish it out of the cache.

      As for the quality issue, the only circles that you will get shot for using burn/rerip in are Slashdot and HydrogenAudio :) The vast majority of people will burn and re-rip if they must. I know quite a few people that just dragged their Microsoft-encoded WMA music over to iTunes, only vaguely aware that it had to "convert" it. The sheer number of 128 kb/s MP3s on P2P should be indicative that quality is not paramount for most people. If they actually get DRM to work, people will in fact go back to the analog hole.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    26. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Music is special, and it does not necessarily tell a story.
      I didn't say music tells a story, if I had I would have said, "Music is no more 'special' than all the other variety of forms of story telling, including movies."

      My point was that telling stories to ourselves and to others is as commonplace and important to our regular lives as is music, it is just manifested in different ways.

      Nevertheless, the fact that they codified the Serial Copy Management System in 1992 so that you could only make first-generation copies is indicative of the acceptability and widespread practice of format-shifting. I maintain that most people consider it their fair right to move their music to other formats if they want.
      Seems like a backwards argument to me - that they codified SCMS means that, in the eyes of the law, music must be especially restricted compared to all other forms of content - just as the rental restrictions on music are also above and beyond anything for other forms of content.
    27. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Seems like a backwards argument to me - that they codified SCMS means that, in the eyes of the law, music must be especially restricted compared to all other forms of content - just as the rental restrictions on music are also above and beyond anything for other forms of content. I wouldn't read too much into the copyright law - in reality that provision is there because the music industry has a different lobby with different goals than the movie industry. The business models are completely different, and their products were consumed in completely different ways. Not to mention that there was no such thing as a consumer digital video format!

      Analog audio copying was rampant, and the music industry was terrified of digital copying. They tried to stave it off by restricting the hardware, and they succeeded until general-purpose computers became powerful enough to handle audio. Now it's too late, and people won't put up with government restrictions on the use of their computers. At least, that's my Humble Opinion :)
      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    28. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by ToTheBone · · Score: 1

      Ehrmm.. I did catch that. I have read the thread.

      My point was that both CD to tape and cd to lossy digital lose a considerable amount of audio quality so there's no real difference there.

      There's already a considerable loss even without considering DRM.
      Therefore incurring a loss in exchange for added convenience still IS very widely accepted.
      Anyone downloading 128kbps or 192kbps lossy audio is getting a lower quality copy just like copying to tape.
      Different artefacts than tape but lower quality and easily distinguishable from the original nonetheless.

      I personally find that silly because technically it isn't necessary anymore to accept that loss.

    29. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by penguinchris · · Score: 1

      I personally find that silly because technically it isn't necessary anymore to accept that loss.

      This is the important point - dr. badass is trying to make a point about how losing quality is no longer acceptable yet everyone was fine with it for years, and while true, there's no point to be made beyond a statement of fact. It's no longer acceptable because it's no longer necessary, and with the coming of the internet and places like HydrogenAudio showing up in google searches more and more "regular" people are becoming aware of audio fidelity issues.

      The only reason people accepted low fidelity recordings, as in cd, vinyl, or radio to cassette, or even cassette to cassette, is out of ignorance that there was anything better. Listening on the built-in speakers on your boombox or the cheap headphones that came with your walkman or the stock car radio or whatever, the difference wasn't even noticeable unless it was a really bad copy. True high fidelity affordable to regular people is a new concept.

      Now, many are willing to part with hundreds of dollars for mp3 players, all of which are capable of excellent sound quality. Then they read reviews on amazon saying the included earbuds are crap and that they should buy something better, and they do. Then maybe they start to notice that the 128kbps or less mp3s they downloaded from Napster back in the day don't sound as good as the ones they ripped off of a cd themselves recently.

      The point is many "regular" consumers these days are much more educated on technical matters than even ten years ago, and this is not a bad thing - it's called progress. It brings the price down for high-quality products so those of us who really appreciate the latest and greatest technologies can actually afford it too.

      With this knowledge comes the realization that the old, easy ways of getting music, like copying to a cassette or burning and re-ripping your itunes, equal inferior sound quality that is finally noticeable with the most common music-listening device of the day, which is now ipods and mp3 players, with excellent headphones costing less than $100 or even $50. This drives people to want to be able to listen to what they want without having to sacrifice quality to get around DRM or whatever the problem is, because a drop in sound quality is noticeable and distracting.

      That said, the vast majority of people are still fine with lossy copy methods, and most would probably be perfectly happy with cassettes if they weren't deemed un-cool these days. With the ripping, burning, and re-ripping of cds that happens in some groups, the quality can get as bad or worse than cassettes. Heck, a lot of people probably don't own any music themselves except maybe a couple of top 40 cds they got as a gift or something, and listen to everything on their radio with built-in low-fidelity speakers.
    30. Re:Is Apple going to extend that grant? by LKM · · Score: 1

      My bet: Similar to the AppleTV, the iPhone will have most of Mac OS X. No Finder, of course, and possibly no Carbon, but most of the basic stuff that makes up OS X.

  2. Competition for emusic by vakuona · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This could get really interesting. Of course emusic uses the more ubiquitous mp3, bt I bet eveyr 'mp3' player will now come playing unprotected aac as standard now Apple is making things interesting.

    1. Re:Competition for emusic by Mr+Jazzizle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course, at 1.30 per song, iTunes' DRM-free AAC cost about 6 times as much as eMusic DRM-free MP3, but for all those people looking for DRM-free top-40-type music, dream come true, eh? (how big is that overlap, anyway?)

    2. Re:Competition for emusic by vakuona · · Score: 4, Funny

      But smaller publishers might also price their music lower. Isn't it conventional slashdot wisdom that they are less greedy than the average big four label?

    3. Re:Competition for emusic by Ahnteis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed. It's now significantly more expensive to buy music from Apple compared to Wal-mart. This is progress?

    4. Re:Competition for emusic by vought · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed. It's now significantly more expensive to buy music from Apple compared to Wal-mart. This is progress?

      It's also considerably more convenient. And not that much more expensive. Apple doesn't censor the music or movies they carry. You can buy one song at a time or the entire album. And there's no wasteful packaging.

      Yeah, I'd call that progress.

    5. Re:Competition for emusic by wall0159 · · Score: 4, Interesting


      What you're missing is that anyone can now release DRM-free 256kbit/s music. This means that small labels will have advantages against RIAA labels (EMI aside) who might be reluctant to release DRM-free music.

      The policy of iTunes has always been (AFAIK) to have a fixed price for individual songs, but a varied price for albums. Hence an indie band can release a DRM-free 256kbit/s album for $8 if they want to... This might mean we see some real competition in the commercial music scene... finally!

      Also, allow me to plug eMusic (www.emusic.com) - You can't beat it for discovering great new music. No personal affiliation, just a satisfied customer. Magnatune seems good too.

    6. Re:Competition for emusic by onepower · · Score: 5, Informative

      The album price is the same for DRM free, higher quality... $9.99 for most albums. That makes the convenience and lack of censorship worth every penny. It isn't like you can buy a single DRM free track from Walmart either.

      --
      Yeah, I use OS X... so sue me.
    7. Re:Competition for emusic by brunascle · · Score: 1

      and quite bit more than... THE FUCKING CD.

      make this crap end, plz.

    8. Re:Competition for emusic by e.+boaz · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's now significantly more expensive to buy music from Apple compared to Wal-mart.


      Except that you don't have to burn fossil fuels to get your music to your house. Nor is there any fossil fuel expended in transporting the disk to the store. Nor do you have to listen to the limited previews through headphones used by 90% of the people in your area. You can shop naked if you wish.

      Yes, this is an improvement.
    9. Re:Competition for emusic by fangorious · · Score: 1

      and quite bit more than... THE FUCKING CD.

      Buying the whole album on iTunes will stay at $9.99 but the tracks will be the 256 kbps non-DRM versions. For most people's audio equipment, 256 kbps will sound the same as the CD.

    10. Re:Competition for emusic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. It's now significantly more expensive to buy music from Apple compared to Wal-mart. This is progress?

      Except.. You can't go to a Wal Mart store and buy one song. Which is Apple's biggest advantage, you don't have to pay $10-15 if you only want a few tracks. In that way I'd say it's much cheaper (and it's also coming back around to the way it used to be in the days of the '45, people forget the full-length album/LP/CD/whatever wasn't always the standard for pop music.)

      While I do think Apple should offer an "album discount", as in a set price to download an entire CD regardless of how many tracks it has, the ability to spend less to get exactly what you want is very much an improvement. If you want the whole CD then there's better ways to get it than through iTunes..

      Besides.. Name a product where that wouldn't be cheaper to buy in bulk at Wal Mart.. I don't know if "progress" in this case can be measured by price.

    11. Re:Competition for emusic by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 2, Informative

      Except that you don't have to burn fossil fuels to get your music to your house. Nor is there any fossil fuel expended in transporting the disk to the store.

      Uh, yes you did have to burn fossil fuels..

      It takes electrical energy to power all those computers, disks, routers, repeaters and cables. Energy which is in the main generated by burning stuff (Unless you live in France, where 80% odd of the electric grid is powered by nuclear plants).

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
    12. Re:Competition for emusic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. It's now significantly more expensive to buy music from Apple compared to Wal-mart. This is progress?

      The higher price is for individual tracks only. DRM-free, 256kbps EMI albums will be available *only* in the new format, for the same price as before.

    13. Re:Competition for emusic by discstickers · · Score: 1
      --
      I have a shitty sig!
    14. Re:Competition for emusic by DaleGlass · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yay for Apple fan logic.

      Generally I would expect that not needing packaging, delivery trucks, shelf space, etc, would result in the end product being cheaper due to the lack of need to pay for all that stuff... but no, somehow delivering less is a "feature" that makes sense to pay extra money for.

      Don't get me wrong, I don't care much for the packaging either, but calling it progress to pay extra for the lack of something is quite bizarre.

    15. Re:Competition for emusic by brunascle · · Score: 1

      fine.

      i still say, if you just want just one song, download* the damn thing. your money isnt going to the band anyway, it's going to apple and the record label. and there's no point supporting a one-hit wonder anyway, they're a dime a dozen.

      now, if you want the full CD, buy the damn CD.

      *by download, i'm not talking about itunes

    16. Re:Competition for emusic by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Well, if you like only one or two songs than buying the individual songs would be a better bargain for you than buying the whole cd when the rest of the songs are crap.

    17. Re:Competition for emusic by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 1

      How do you buy a *single* DRM-free track from that site you linked to? They're selling entire CDs there.

    18. Re:Competition for emusic by syousef · · Score: 1

      That's insightful? The "wasteful packaging" includes a backup and album artwork. You know ART, as in art and music. The convenience I'll grant you IF it all works correctly. It's honestly not that much less convenient to rip a CD and store it.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    19. Re:Competition for emusic by E-Lad · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is that all those hard drives, computers and routers you speak of wouldn't be on and working otherwise?

    20. Re:Competition for emusic by oyenstikker · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yup. If Apple didn't have iTMS, they would still have all the hardware sitting there turned on, doing nothing.

      --
      The masses are the crack whores of religion.
    21. Re:Competition for emusic by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      OK this is probably one of the reasons big corporations actually might agree to publish non DRMed music. Getting mo' money.
      But don't forget those AAC are also quite a bit higher audio quality than their 128kbps AAC and MP3 brethren.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    22. Re:Competition for emusic by DaleGlass · · Score: 1

      That still makes it a bad deal. There's absolutely no reason why transferring 100MB of data should cost more than fabricating, packaging, storing, delivering to a shop, displaying and selling a chunk of metal and plastic.

      The cost of downloaded music by all logic should be below the half of what the CD of the same stuff costs. Now allofmp3.com had reasonable prices.

    23. Re:Competition for emusic by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      It's been a while since I researched codec stuff, but isn't 256kbps getting awfully close to FLAC(lossless) compression?

      Hmm...

      Wiki Link: ATRAC's original 292 kbit/s bitrate was designed to be 'close to CD quality', sonically. This is the bitrate used on original MiniDiscs. Years later ATRAC was improved and is generally considered better than earlier versions at similar bitrates. For purposes of comparison, CDs are encoded at 1411.2 kbit/s, and lossless encoders can encode most CDs below 1000 kbit/s, with significant bitrate reduction for easier-to-encode content such as voice.

      Assuming they're using an up to date codec and encoder, it looks like they could almost do better than CD quality, assuming they go back to the masters. I wouldn't make that bet, though.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    24. Re:Competition for emusic by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      OK this is probably one of the reasons big corporations actually might agree to publish non DRMed music.

      It might just work. I haven't bought or even downloaded music in the last 5 years or so. My music collection is getting badly aged, I've heard some songs I like. I might actually end up giving Apple money now, as the DRM was one of the big reasons I wouldn't give them money.

      For example, I've literally spent hundreds of dollars on Baen's webscription site. I 'own' at least a third of their ebooks. They're completely without DRM. Meanwhile, I've purchased exactly 1 ebook from another source, mostly as an experiment. I haven't been back since. They're too much of a hassle.

      Yes, I know I could download everything illegaly, but I happen to like being legal, as well as the added convenience.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    25. Re:Competition for emusic by Kadin2048 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I am not really a fan of the iTMS -- I've bought maybe a half-dozen songs from there since it opened, and most of those in the first few weeks it was running, on a lark -- but after going down to Target to buy a CD a few days ago (on the assumption -- proved hideously incorrect -- that it would be a little less of a shitshow than WalMart), I would gladly pay 60% extra to not have to fight with the dregs of humanity in order to buy some data.

      (And yes, I'm aware there are still real "music stores" around, but I've never been in one where I felt particularly comfortable, or that had ample parking. And if I'm going to give someone my money I figure I should at least get those just as a given.)

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    26. Re:Competition for emusic by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 2, Insightful

      here's absolutely no reason why transferring 100MB of data should cost more than fabricating, packaging, storing, delivering to a shop, displaying and selling a chunk of metal and plastic


      And it doesn't.

      But once again, much to our collective befuddlement, the buyers don't seem to care much about the costs. They just demand X quantity at Y price and the ever watchful marketeers are happy to sell them X much and collect X*Y in cold hard cash.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    27. Re:Competition for emusic by veganboyjosh · · Score: 1

      It's honestly not that much less convenient to rip a CD and store it.

      100 cds?
      500?
      1000?

    28. Re:Competition for emusic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yay for Apple fan logic.

      Generally I would expect that not needing packaging, delivery trucks, shelf space, etc, would result in the end product being cheaper due to the lack of need to pay for all that stuff...

      Yay for a complete lack of understanding of economics.

      The price Apple charges has nothing to do with the cost of delivering it. It is simply the highest price that users will pay, such that Apple maximises their profits.
    29. Re:Competition for emusic by krel · · Score: 1
      --
      karma: ouch!
    30. Re:Competition for emusic by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Censorship? Isn't censorship only executed by people who have no right to control what they censor (i.e. they didn't create it)?

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    31. Re:Competition for emusic by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      It is cheaper. An entire album is 9.99 on iTS, DRM or DRM-free. That's around 25-100% cheaper than the equivalent album in the stores.

      Alternatively you can save even more money by buying just the tracks you want. As the tracks you choose not to buy still cost money to produce, that's not bad.

      Given the material cost of a typical CD including packaging is unlikely to be more than a dollar, with the $14+ overhead being used to pay for retail (still present), marketing (still necessary), and the production costs of the original work (still necessary) I think that's pretty good deal.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    32. Re:Competition for emusic by noewun · · Score: 1

      A lot of the music I like isn't in WalMart. It is in the iTMS.

      --
      I am a believer of momentum and curves.
    33. Re:Competition for emusic by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I see that. The reason I posted the link I did was because it had a better bitrate comparison listing.

      For example, it listed the bitrate of uncompressed CD, mentioned lossless, etc...

      Your link does mention that for 256kbps, you don't have significant benefits for using aac over mp3.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    34. Re:Competition for emusic by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression that Apple forces all of the music to be sold at the same price (hence why all of the songs on iTunes before this DRM thing were $.99).

    35. Re:Competition for emusic by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >[Itunes] It's also considerably more convenient.

      It is not convenient when you use Linux. ITunes is not an open site (like Emusic is). I want a site that I can buy non-DRM, non-lossy, any-label music, using any major browser, under any OS, for a reasonable price... guess I will be waiting a while. But Lord help me if it does happen because my wallet will drain quickly.

    36. Re:Competition for emusic by mh101 · · Score: 1

      You can shop naked if you wish.

      Yes, this is an improvement. Hey, it's me, your neighbor. Would you mind closing your curtains when you do your music shopping? Thanks!

      --
      Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
    37. Re:Competition for emusic by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      Not to burst your bubble, but it's hugely more efficient over the wire vs. a truck. Some fossil fuels are going to be burned, yes, but not as much as with a physical product.

    38. Re:Competition for emusic by fangorious · · Score: 1

      Apple doesn't encode the tracks sold at iTS, the studios do, and they'd better be encoding from the masters. That was actually one of the original selling points in the early days of iTMS.

    39. Re:Competition for emusic by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      You can shop naked if you wish.
      Yes, this is an improvement.
      Improvement for you, maybe. For the rest of us in your office? Not so much.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    40. Re:Competition for emusic by syousef · · Score: 1

      If you have that many CDs you can buy a storage box that'll hold 500 and get rid of the jewel cases and is less than 60 cm long, and that's not much bigger in width and height than a CD. (Personally I'd keep the inserts at least though, so that's a little more storage).

      In any case lets say the average price of a CD is $10. If you have 1000 of them that's $10000. If you're spending that much don't whine that you can't afford storage or that it's a hassle. Personally I probably own about 150 CDs and my fiancee probably owns the same. It's no burden. She still buys them, but I haven't bought a CD in years. They're all still in their jewel cases.

      If you want to talk about wasted space lets talk DVD jewel cases, which are unecessarily and artificially longer than they need to be.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    41. Re:Competition for emusic by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression that Apple forces all of the music to be sold at the same price (hence why all of the songs on iTunes before this DRM thing were $.99).

      Apple sets the retail price (i.e. what you pay), the labels set the wholesale price (i.e. how much retailers like Apple pay).

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    42. Re:Competition for emusic by StikyPad · · Score: 5, Funny

      calling it progress to pay extra for the lack of something is quite bizarre.

      Not when you can have soup for $1, or bodily-fluid free soup for $5.

    43. Re:Competition for emusic by dr.badass · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It is not convenient when you use Linux.

      Nothing is convenient when you use Linux.

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    44. Re:Competition for emusic by veganboyjosh · · Score: 1

      my point was more about the time it would take to rip them to a convenient format, but yours is well taken, and would apply in that regard as well.
      i personally have about 300 of them, stored in big cd wallet book things. it's a pain flipping thru pages and pages of them, even when they're in order. especially after having used the scrolling thru record cover feature of itunes. same sort of aesthetic, but faster and easier.

    45. Re:Competition for emusic by plover · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The cost of downloaded music by all logic should be below the half of what the CD of the same stuff costs.

      You are only looking at a fraction of the actual costs. How do you know what Apple's costs are, vs. the costs incurred by a physical distribution company? The costs are not just for the physical media and distribution, or the network bandwidth, iTMS development and hosting costs, but also the negotiated per-title royalties that must be paid. The labels get their cut, and that's probably the most expensive component of the price.

      And even after all that, sure, Apple's costs may be lower. But Apple's prices are apparently higher by your measure, and I think that's why you're complaining.

      You see, there's this funny idea called 'Capitalism'. Capitalism pretty much means "if you want to sell a product at whatever price you want to sell it, go for it. If you make money, congratulations. If you lose money, tough." The corollary to that is "if you want something and are willing to pay the asked-for price, you can buy it. If you are unwilling to pay that price, you can try to negotiate a new lower price, shop elsewhere, or go without."

      So if you think a DRM-free song is worth only $0.25, why not write to Apple and ask them to sell you that song for $0.25? If they're unwilling to negotiate with you, then you are free to go to another source and pay their asking price. Otherwise, contact the record labels yourself and start a music distribution business of your own, set your prices at $0.25, and make lots of money. Let us know how that works out for you.

      --
      John
    46. Re:Competition for emusic by fangorious · · Score: 1

      It takes electrical energy to power all those computers, disks, routers, repeaters and cables. Energy which is in the main generated by burning stuff (Unless you live in France, where 80% odd of the electric grid is powered by nuclear plants).

      My provider (Gexa) offers service (Gexa Green) with 100% of the power generated by wind, water, and solar. My farts sure do smell good.

    47. Re:Competition for emusic by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      Generally I would expect that not needing packaging, delivery trucks, shelf space, etc, would result in the end product being cheaper due to the lack of need to pay for all that stuff...

      The comparison was made to Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, which has enough buying power to negotiate preposterously low wholesale prices for the music they carry, and which has one of the most efficient logistics operations in the world, which is used to transport a hell of a lot more than just music CDs. That's not really something to draw generalizations from.

      There's absolutely no reason why transferring 100MB of data should cost more than fabricating, packaging, storing, delivering to a shop, displaying and selling a chunk of metal and plastic.

      If it were 100MB of random, useless data then you might have a point. Think: Why to blank CDs cost a few cents, while music CDs cost $10 or more?

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    48. Re:Competition for emusic by syousef · · Score: 1

      Yes it is a pain to rip a collection initially! However once you've done that, you could rip as you buy. Youngsters wouldn't even have this problem, just old timers. However I do see your point as well.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    49. Re:Competition for emusic by veganboyjosh · · Score: 1

      i don't personally have that many cds, but i do have a shit ton of records. i love listening to them, but digital music has spoiled me, much as i hate to admit it. it's just so much easier to click on a playlist than to dig thru a crate of lp's or wallets of cds.
      the initial ripping would be a monumental task, which i'm not sure is worth it. by the time i get it all ripped, some other storage media'll come along and make my new digital collection obselete. such is the joy i guess of holding on to all of this, and having it at your/my fingertips.

    50. Re:Competition for emusic by shark72 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The cost of downloaded music by all logic should be below the half of what the CD of the same stuff costs."

      This article is a bit wordy, but it does a pretty good job of explaining why retailers do not set their pricing according to the cost of production. It happens in other markets, too: Kenneth Cole can sell a shirt for $150, while Sears sells one for $15, and they have roughly the same cost of goods. I'm sure you can think of many more examples. It even happens in other forms of media: movie A might be an art house flick that cost $10MM to make, and movie B might have cost $100MM. Yet both will cost about nine bucks to see in the theatre, and both will cost about $20 when they're released on DVD.

      Believe me, you're not the first one to be befuddled by this... but it's a widely recognized principal. We can complain, but it won't help. Kenneth Cole will keep selling those $150 shirts as long as people will keep buying them. Logic be damned!

      "Now allofmp3.com had reasonable prices."

      ...and allofmp3.com is there to serve a certain type of customer. The iTunes store serves a different type. There's room for both of us in this world.

      As an aside, I think lots of Slashdotters have a flow chart in their head which has a constant terminus labelled "...and thus, I am still morally entitled to pirate music!". The flow chart keeps changing along with the market. Ten years ago, it was price and selection (tracks were $3.00 and selection was pitiful). Once Apple drove the price down and online catalogs exploded, the path was modified to encompass DRM. Now that DRM seems to be going the way of the dodo, it's back to price.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    51. Re:Competition for emusic by Macka · · Score: 3, Insightful


      And don't forget that by buying off iTunes you're also saving the planet. Just think of all those dirty emissions you avoided creating by staying at home instead of driving. Add to that the emissions saved by by using 1 less CDs worth of plastic, packaging and transport to the store of your choice.

      You just got greener .. be happy :)

    52. Re:Competition for emusic by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      I'd tend to disagree that just because you've spent 10k on CDs that you're disallowed from complaining about storage or hassle.

      Indeed, I have a few hundred DVDs, and it's a pain and hassle to find the one I want to watch. A virtual DVD system would allow me to relocate the DVDs to a box down in the basement(cheaper storage), and use the power of digital search to help keep the organization up.

      Offer a download service that's competitive with DVD? I'd sign up in a moment.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    53. Re:Competition for emusic by Ahnteis · · Score: 1

      My flowchart goes more like ... "and thus I don't bother buying new music because I have enough already".

      I'll occasionally buy something, but generally the cost is too high for the benefit and I just do without.

      If you buy only top 40 current hits, the $1.30/song *might* make sense--those songs are at the beginning of their lifecycle. However, the music I'm prone to listen to usually sells for less then $10 for the entire CD. Often, it'll sell as low as $5.00.

      Itunes simply didn't make sense before, and it makes even LESS sense now. Switching to a DRM free option shouldn't automatically mean that I have to buy the more expensive version.

    54. Re:Competition for emusic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yay for Anti Apple Buffoon logic.

      Earth to planet clueless, paging DaleGlass... a CD at a brick and morter store ranges from $15 to $18 these days. An iTunes album, even the new ones, are STILL $10
      Progress, Round One: Apple.
      Delivering "less"? Fewer plastic shells, yes, but in case mindless Apple bashers can't read, Apple is DOUBLING the bit rate.
      Progress, Round Two: Apple.
      To summarize;
      You are paying LESS than a cd (and exactly the SAME as you did before for whole albums), and as far as the audio you're purchasing goes, it is a HIGHER quality file.
      Who modded you up, anyway?

    55. Re:Competition for emusic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Apple fan logic? No, not quite Mr. foxy-second-life turds-for-brains. Economically speaking, consider a 10 song album with only 2 songs that have "pop appeal". If the label spends money on producing the album, producing cover art, shipping copies that don't sell to stores, etc..., they need to recover the costs somehow. So, if people wish to buy the single songs instead of the album, you push the single song price up to try to recover that cost from singles versus the album as a whole since 8/10 of the CD is not selling well. Your average teenager or non-music-obsessed adult prefers singles - they want the songs they like, the don't want the stuff they don't like. The record companies price for this, the average consumer (NOT for outliers who can't understand this pricing scheme). If most of your listeners just want one song, you have to push the price for that one song up. But that won't work for two reasons - first, if you price those songs up higher than the rest, consumers may have an inclination to not buy them since they appear more expensive. Second, you can't predict the popular songs from an album when you set prices before it hits the market. Therefore you pick a pricepoint somewhere in the middle and price them all the same.

      You need to read up on something called 'amortization'. Just because YOU download the song doesn't mean they didn't pay for packaging and shipping for a CD that went to a walmart that is now sitting collecting dust. They need to make up that cost, thus they amortize costs across all venues where the songs are sold.

      If this is apple fan logic, what is your logic then? I hope I get to metamod the moderator who gave you bogus points.

    56. Re:Competition for emusic by asninn · · Score: 1

      Or in Iceland, where 99.9% of electricity is generated from geothermal energy or hydro power. :P OK, so there's no iTunes Iceland, but at least your own computer would not cause any significant amount of pollution from fossil fuels (or long-term problems from radioactive waste)...

      --
      butter the donkey
    57. Re:Competition for emusic by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Or, do what I do.

      I feel tired of all this RIAA crap suing dead grandmothers, little children. Apple leaving me with a impression it's ripping people off and other things. All these DRM technologies coming out every year and media double speak.

      I haven't bought a CD or bought music online in years, I'm just sick of this crap and want nothing to-do with it.

      How is this working out for me? I'm not really bothered by it.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    58. Re:Competition for emusic by alphamugwump · · Score: 1

      "by the time i get it all ripped, some other storage media'll come along and make my new digital collection obselete." Get a 500 GB hard drive and a good sound card, and copy it while you can. What will you do when your record player breaks? Get it repaired? Buy a new one? Fix it yourself? Maintaining obsolete equipment becomes a losing proposition really quickly. And once your player is gone, your media is just so much plastic. By all means, copy it while you can, unless you really don't care about it.

    59. Re:Competition for emusic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The price Apple charges has nothing to do with the cost of delivering it. It is simply the highest price that users will pay, such that Apple maximises their profits.
      And they are very good at it. Putting 40% profit margin on top of production cost on their iPods for instance, at least twice that of other manufactors. If it wasn't Apple it would be called ripping off the consumer.
    60. Re:Competition for emusic by Chrisje · · Score: 1

      > for all those people looking for DRM-free top-40-type music

      You don't know what you're talking about. I was a member of eMusic, and the service is good, but the collection is too limited.

      I am an eclectic music listener, and I had trouble finding the following on eMusic:

      - Ray Charles early stuff. They had some albums on lesser labels, but not what I was looking for.
      - Amy Winehouse. Alright, she's in the top 40, but for once this is utterly correct.
      - Chet Baker
      - Haydn's Cello Concerto's 1 and 2 as performed by Msistlav Rostropovitch, released by EMI classics

      You call that TOP 40 Stuff?

    61. Re:Competition for emusic by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      Where, pray tell, did I make any claims about efficiency in my post?

      FWIW, I have no idea either way which is the more efficient. It's quite possible though iTMS takes more power (CDs sitting in a warehouse don't need any power - only the actual delivery process needs power).

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
    62. Re:Competition for emusic by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      That's not what I said at all.

      Either you suffer from severe illiteracy, or you're setting up a strawman.

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
    63. Re:Competition for emusic by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      My provider (Gexa) offers service (Gexa Green) with 100% of the power generated by wind, water, and solar.

      That's cool, but they can only provide such service to a minority of electrical users, as those power sources will never ever be able to provide a more significant share of the power supply (unless of course our society regresses massively technology, willingly or otherwise).

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
    64. Re:Competition for emusic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CDs sitting in a warehouse use power - heating, transporting staff to the warehouse, they probably have computerised systems for tracking stuff...

      admitedly this is going to be less energy than the physical delivery of the cd inbetween each stage (factory->warhouse->shop->home etc), but still not an insignificant amount. (the average warehouse is responsibe for 4kg of greenhouse gas per square foot)
      shops use even more energy (9kg of greenhouse gas per square foot on average)

      obviously these figures inculde goods that require refrigiration etc, so numbers for CDs will be lower, but the point is that there's no way iTMS takes more energy to deliver an album than buying it in a shop - once you include the embodied energy from manufacturing the cds, transport and storage.

    65. Re:Competition for emusic by Mark_in_Brazil · · Score: 1

      Yay for Apple fan logic.

      Generally I would expect that not needing packaging, delivery trucks, shelf space, etc, would result in the end product being cheaper due to the lack of need to pay for all that stuff... but no, somehow delivering less is a "feature" that makes sense to pay extra money for.
      Yay for Apple hater logic.

      What makes you think companies should set their prices based on costs? They should set their prices according to the market. Apple has been successful selling music at iTMS prices because people are willing to pay that price for the convenience of buying their music from home, work, or anywhere else they can connect to the internet, without restrictions on what's offered because of the sensitivity of somebody in Bentonville.
      --
      "It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
    66. Re:Competition for emusic by Znork · · Score: 1

      "would result in the end product being cheaper"

      The pricing of monopoly protected goods isnt set as a function of cost to produce, it's set as a function of what the market can bear.

      Basically, there are a number of variables that will affect price, for example; disposable income spendable on music goes up? Price goes up. Easier access? Price goes up (the 'cost' in time, money and efford of going to the store goes away from the total the consumer is willing to pay). You can buy music per track? Price goes up. (Total spending remains at the same level, but on fewer tracks instead).

      With monopoly pricing there is only one variable that keeps prices down. It's when enough people no longer buy the product in question (ie, boycotts or piracy) to offset the revenue gain from price increases.

      Otherwise you'll just see a constant revenue maximization and concurrent spending/waste increase (spending grows to accomodate revenue through increases in, for example, marketing).

      This situation is a good example why free markets are much better than protected monopolies. Decades of protection from competition has resulted in a situation where the RIAA corps cannot turn a profit on million dollar revenues on a product that could be produced for less than the cost of a used car. Protecting producers from competition to encourage 'investment' only results in the 'investments' costing that much more. You get the same work done, except you're paying much, much, more.

    67. Re:Competition for emusic by Znork · · Score: 1

      "...and thus, I am still morally entitled to pirate music!"

      Of course, the difference is that Kenneth Cole arent about to get Sears outlawed. Or there'd probably be a whole lot of people feeling morally entitled to buy Sears shirts.

      The onus lies on the monopoly protector to come up with the ethical rationale as to why those who would buy the Sears shirt but not the Kenneth Cole shirt should go without shirts.

      "The flow chart keeps changing along with the market."

      As long as there are government mandated monopolies in a market the market will be suboptimized and it will fail to accomodate consumer demand.

    68. Re:Competition for emusic by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 1

      And here I was, in the middle of connecting a really long TP cable to my car to power it. I hadn't thought about the routers themselves would be using fossil fuels... Thanks, you saved me hours that would have been wasted on hacking the router into providing enough power.

      --
      - These characters were randomly selected.
    69. Re:Competition for emusic by creepynut · · Score: 1

      Which of course means when the smaller labels set prices to $0.05 (just an example) a song, Apple will still sell it at $1.29 a track rather than passing the savings on to its customers.

    70. Re:Competition for emusic by idamaybrown · · Score: 1

      "I would gladly pay 60% extra to not have to fight with the dregs of humanity.."

      Us ordinary folks are honored by your esteemed presence here at Slashdot. Must have been horrible to mix with the common folk at Target.

    71. Re:Competition for emusic by Aceticon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You see, there's this funny idea called 'Capitalism'. Capitalism pretty much means "if you want to sell a product at whatever price you want to sell it, go for it. If you make money, congratulations. If you lose money, tough." The corollary to that is "if you want something and are willing to pay the asked-for price, you can buy it. If you are unwilling to pay that price, you can try to negotiate a new lower price, shop elsewhere, or go without."


      Actually people going around telling their friends and aquaintances that a certain vendor is too expensive and they can buy the same product cheaper somewhere else is also a part of Capitalism.

      Given that the theoretical baseline for old fashioned Free Market theories (100% information awareness for all participants) doesn't really exist, the real world way of compensating for the information gap (between single consumers and multimilion dollar companies with big consumer research and marketing departments) is doing exactly what the GP is doing: "Dessiminating the information that he has".

      Actually, the only reason why we don't have DRM free music at $0.25 a pop is because Government has created and granted artificial monopoly rights (aka copyright) to some of the players.
    72. Re:Competition for emusic by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      From what I've read, albums will be DRM-free, AAC@256kbps, for the same price as before. You'll be able to upgrade your current albums for free, if available in DRM-free/256kbps format.

      The higher price only affects single tracks and you'll be able to upgrade your current tracks for 30 cents. Or if you have an almost complete album you could buy the missing tracks for 99 cents, then upgrade the whole album to 256kbps for free.

      So for albums, yes it's better. AAC is much better than MP3, so if it's the same price for DRM-free AAC@256kbps, the whole "it's lossy and I can hear it" argument can't really hold anymore. No you don't get a shiny plastic disc, but you also get the benefit of getting your music RFN.

      Besides, most people who buy music online are the ones who take a new CD home, rip it, then store the CD somewhere. How is buying online any different from a listening point of view?

    73. Re:Competition for emusic by n2art2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You really don't get it, and that is why you will never make it as a business owner. It's not ripping off the customer if the customer is willing to pay the price you ask. It's good business. Supply and demand. Capitalism. Take your pick.

      You think 40% margin is high? It's not. If you want to talk about profit margins, take a look at what the profit margin of a cup of coffee is at the gas station, or the price difference between a 2-liter of Pepsi, and a 20 oz. bottle.

      Or better yet. . . Check out the prices of a hot dog and a coke at your next professional sporting event, and compare that with the already huge margin on the same product at your local convience store. Then compare that with the cost you would incure if you purchased a package of franks at your local supermart.

      So it cost a fraction more to get the convience of purchasing a per tract, at home song, then it does to drive down to the store and purchase a complete cd (even if you only wanted one song). Hmm. . . who has the bigger profit margins?

      --
      Self proclaimed wannabe geek. You know how it is. Most of us who read this stuff probably fit in that category.
    74. Re:Competition for emusic by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      CDs sitting in a warehouse use power - heating, transporting staff to the warehouse, they probably have computerised systems for tracking stuff...

      Well, that's obviously true yes. If you c read what I wrote:

      CDs sitting in a warehouse don't need any power - only the actual delivery process needs power

      I already made your point, without the detail. Slightly evil to have phrased though, yes. ;)

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
    75. Re:Competition for emusic by digitrev · · Score: 1

      He meant single as in individual. Like you can't buy an individual DRM-free track from Wal-Mart.

      --
      Cynical Idealist
    76. Re:Competition for emusic by tkrotchko · · Score: 1

      It's not rocket science, it's obvious. The price of a good is not related to the cost of producing that good, except in a very general way.

      It's obvious if you think about it for a few seconds, really.

      --
      You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    77. Re:Competition for emusic by yoasif · · Score: 1

      He said "track", not "album" or "CD".

    78. Re:Competition for emusic by bradavon · · Score: 1

      Do Apple although this.

      It's still otherwise a locked format and one you still need to mess around converting.

    79. Re:Competition for emusic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just got greener .. be happy :) In the words of the great Kermit the Frog:

      It's not easy being green.
    80. Re:Competition for emusic by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Generally I would expect that not needing packaging, delivery trucks, shelf space, etc, would result in the end product being cheaper due to the lack of need to pay for all that stuff... but no, somehow delivering less is a "feature" that makes sense to pay extra money for.

      First, convenience is a feature. I can have a song through iTunes delivered directly to my home in under a minute. What CD shipper will give me that?

      Second, one might expect that not needing packaging, delivery trucks, shelf space, etc. would result in cheaper prices, but if you want to complain about that, complain to the record companies. Apple's cut of iTunes sales is relatively small, and they have to pay for the store's development and maintenance, customer support, and bandwidth. Those aren't free. The record companies, on the other hand, aren't paying for anything and are giving the artists smaller cuts of revenue on online sales. They've managed to cut the distribution prices and cut their artist royalties without dropping the price-- good for them, but it's hard to see how that's justified.

    81. Re:Competition for emusic by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "It is cheaper. An entire album is 9.99 on iTS, DRM or DRM-free. That's around 25-100% cheaper than the equivalent album in the stores. "

      True...and it is probably about 50% or so of the recording quality of the album at the store...so, you get what you pay for.

      :-)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    82. Re:Competition for emusic by pkulak · · Score: 1

      "Of course, at 1.30 per song, iTunes' DRM-free AAC cost about 6 times as much as eMusic DRM-free MP3" Why does everyone keep forgetting that all albums are still 9.99? I don't buy individual songs, so there's no price hike for me. And let's knock off the indie snobiness, mmm kay? There's a lot of great bands who aren't with the major labels, but there's also a hell of a lot who are.

    83. Re:Competition for emusic by Blue+Stone · · Score: 1

      >"Don't get me wrong, I don't care much for the packaging either, but calling it progress to pay extra for the lack of something is quite bizarre. They should label it "ORGANIC" - seems to be working out for that. :)

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    84. Re:Competition for emusic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're also a goddamn fucking furry, and I'm bothered by that, deviant.

    85. Re:Competition for emusic by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      Which of course means when the smaller labels set prices to $0.05 (just an example) a song, Apple will still sell it at $1.29 a track rather than passing the savings on to its customers.

      You misunderstand. By "set the price", I mean they're the ones that get to decide the minimum they're willing to accept in exchange for their product. This doesn't mean that the actual price they sell to Apple for is negotiable. It just means they get to decide whether the price that Apple offers to buy at is acceptable. There's no such thing as them saying "Please give us less money". If they think that getting 70+ cents a track is too much, the only real option they have is to just not deal with Apple.

      I think you're grasping at straws if you think there's some kind of "screw the labels, screw the consumer" thing going on.

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    86. Re:Competition for emusic by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      The fact that you have a computer and can string words together in a sentence immediately puts you far above the level of the folks I encountered at Target that day. Give yourself an extra point if you're not obviously on drugs.

      I don't know if I was just there on a bad day or something (free heroin at the pharmacy counter?) but I really thought I'd stumbled into a casting call for a zombie movie. Add that to the completely un-noteworthy fist and knife fight in the parking lot, and what I'm pretty sure was sodomy going on in the bathroom (I turned around pretty quickly when I saw the number of feet in that stall, plus all the groaning) ... if that's the "common folk" these days, we need a good pandemic.

      Now, maybe it was the time of day or something, because I usually only go to supercenter stores in the middle of the night, and hopefully it was just the area, because I really don't want to believe that's typical. But at any rate, there's no way I'm going to go back in there again for a trivial entertainment purchase.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    87. Re:Competition for emusic by kchrist · · Score: 1

      In what way is AAC a "locked format"?

    88. Re:Competition for emusic by durdur · · Score: 1

      No, it's not typical. Target is no frills, but neither scary nor unpleasant in most locations. My whole family is a huge customer of Target. But maybe you should stay out of that neighborhood yours is in.

    89. Re:Competition for emusic by Arterion · · Score: 1

      So getting the zero day FLAC rip of the CD from TPB or *torrent should be capitalism at it's finest, eh? I can find a way to get without paying for it, so I should be able to because I'm so clever.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    90. Re:Competition for emusic by Snaller · · Score: 1

      "The labels get their cut, and that's probably the most expensive component of the price. "

      Yeah, because they are greedy bastards.

      "You see, there's this funny idea called 'Capitalism'. Capitalism pretty much means"

      fleece people for as much as you can get the politicians to allow.

      --
      If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    91. Re:Competition for emusic by syousef · · Score: 1

      How is that any different to buying the obsolete format in the first place? You better hope there's something out there that'll transcode so your collection isn't obsolete. That's true whether you'd created them from vinyl, ripped from CD or bought the mp3.

      At least with a digital format like a CD or mp3 there is some hope you can transcode faster than real time. Your problem with vinyl is that you'd have to physically babysit the process and then you'd have to manually split into each track. Of course when the new format comes it probably won't be legal to transcode, and there'll be a 5 year fucking jail sentence for violating copyright if you do so.

      I did end up re-buying about a dozen of my favourite vinyl albums as CD. I've vowed I won't do that again. Fuck them if they think they can make me pay again and again for the same fucking music. I'd rather just hum the fucking tunes than do that again. Of course they'll start prosecuting for humming too no doubt. Fuckers.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    92. Re:Competition for emusic by syousef · · Score: 1

      I didn't say you're not allowed to complain if you spend 10K on CDs, just that you'd be silly to do so. If you spend that much on any collection you're going to need to invest some time and money into organising it. It's not anyone else's fault that you can't find your own CDs or DVDs.

      If you want to rip them, and it's legal to do so where you live, than that's one way to do it. However until broadband is significantly faster your fantasy of a convenient DVD download service is just that - a fantasy. You're talking up to 9GB a DVD. Don't know about you but my monthly limit's 10GB and I'm not wasting on a single DVD only to have it download over the period of a week. I could get about 20GB for a similar price (or a little more) but it'd be less reliable. Wooohooo 2 DVDs.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    93. Re:Competition for emusic by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      I can and do sometimes download 10GB in a single day. I'm not limited on my downloads in that fashion.

      For that matter most movies don't need a complete 9GB. 1GB would be good enough quality for many movies(non-hidef, of course), and I could put a thouand movies on a single HD at that price.

      Remember, it wasn't that many years ago that the same thing could be said about storing music on a HD... Compression has gotten better right along with the sizes of HD's.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    94. Re:Competition for emusic by Mr+Jazzizle · · Score: 1

      All right, so you can't find individual artists that you knew beforehand, I'll give you that because I, too, was a little upset to find that a lot of artists I would of loved to buy 2 dollar albums from weren't in their library, but you can't deny that there's plenty of good music to discover there. I'm an eclectic listener myself, and as such a find that most music is pretty good, and even though there's not always an artist I'm pining for at any given moment, there's usually someone who's close enough to do the job.

    95. Re:Competition for emusic by syousef · · Score: 1

      I can and do sometimes download 10GB in a single day. I'm not limited on my downloads in that fashion.

      Good for you, but like I said that's my monthly limit and I'm not alone in this.

      For that matter most movies don't need a complete 9GB. 1GB would be good enough quality for many movies(non-hidef, of course), and I could put a thouand movies on a single HD at that price.

      You say 1GB is good enough? Why settle for shitty quality when a trip to the local store gets you much better quality. A 1TB drive isn't that common yet either. Perhaps in a few years. I'd have a total of about 2TB at home, and I can think of nothing worse than wasting that space on movies. Not to mention that drives fail even if you look after them. CDs/DVDs get scratched but that's not all your eggs in one basket.

      Remember, it wasn't that many years ago that the same thing could be said about storing music on a HD... Compression has gotten better right along with the sizes of HD's.

      Bandwidth is also a different proposition than storage. A new larger hard disk comes out, you can buy it immediately. Major infrastructure needs to be put in place by a telco and ISP before your bandwidth goes up.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    96. Re:Competition for emusic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      go fucking kill youself fucktard by finding a razor, running a hot bath and slitting your fucking wrists.

      -plover

    97. Re:Competition for emusic by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      From what I've seen, 1GB of video using an advanced Codec can often be as good visually as a DVD, which uses a relativly simple codec.

      If I could actually see sources that were compressed from the original sources as opposed to being compressed from DVD's it'd probably be even better.

      I've seen some tests, it's better to compress more than to scale down, so you leave the resolution in there and compress the heck out of it. Use a VBR type bitrate for even better results, though it'd mean that flicks with lots of action would take more to download on average than a snoozer.

      For that matter most DVDs don't take the whole thing for the movie. They'll stick a good half hour of previews for other movies, interviews, and such on the disk which I don't care about.

      And, as the market for online music shows; people aren't actually that concerned about quality. Your arguement could be made for CD's too, you know. A CD is around 1.1 mbit/second where most compressed music online is 128kbit/second. Around one tenth, in other words.

      For those obsessed with hidef and quality, well, the saying 'Never underestimate the bandwidth of USPS/UPS/Fedex' comes into play. They're still stuck visiting the store or buying online and waiting for the delivery.

      For my needs I could que up three or four movies and get them quicker than standard shipping could. They'd have to use advanced download technology that's capable of recovering from connection losses and such, of course.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  3. ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They used to like 128kbps AAC uploaded to them, but now they want lossless - so it's been on the cards for a while (not the DRM free, but higher quality). Anyway, means they can encode to anything they want for all the new stuff without having to transcode. Hasn't helped with their congested servers though.

    Apropo of nothing I suppose, but thought it might be interesting.

    1. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
      Anyway, means they can encode to anything they want for all the new stuff without having to transcode. Hasn't helped with their congested servers though.

      Doesn't really mean that at all. They need to encode for their targeted music players. MP3 would be best, since it's ubiquitous. Other formats, less so. They could, however, sell to the rest of the market of MP3 players with the non-DRM stuff -- provided that Apple wants to be in the music sales business, instead of the music hardware business.

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    2. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by Zaknafein500 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And the answer is, they don't want to be in the music business, at least no more than they have to be. The only reason they are curently is because the music business provides content for their hardware business, which is where the real money is made. The iTunes Store is effectively a loss-leader to sell iPods. Jobs has said as much already.

      --

      "The guide is definitive, reality is frequently inaccurate."
    3. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      FLAC > Apple Lossless.

      Nuff said.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    4. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by bdesham · · Score: 1

      Unless you're using iTunes, which natively supports Apple Lossless, and which has no support for FLAC.

      --
      Alcohol and Calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive.
    5. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by QuantumG · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Yes, unless you're a fucktard who can't see that getting 100% of your computing experience from a single company that doesn't even identify itself as a software company is always going to result in software poverty.. obviously.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    6. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As the GP I think that you're wrong, it does mean that they _could_. Before when they only had 128Kbps AAC they couldn't - without transcoding (it's very simple, I stated it all explicitly - no tricks - compressed, _not_ encoded).

      Whether they _want_ to is a different question, but please don't talk shit.

    7. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woah there cowboy. Word on the street is that ITMS now makes money.

    8. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by Macka · · Score: 1


      I'm pretty sure that the iTunes store doesn't make a loss. It makes some money, just not that much, and certainly small potatoes in comparison to the profits from the iPod range.

    9. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The iTunes Store is effectively a loss-leader to sell iPods. Jobs has said as much already.
      iTS has stopped being a loss-leader for many years now. It was intended to be a break even venture though it started as a loss-leader. However, unlike the motto of the bubble economy of late 1990's where you sold things at a loss and make that up on the volume, Apple did a good job capitalizing on the volume. They managed to group purchases to cut down on credit card charges and streamline their systems and they introduced allowances and gift cards. It quickly passed the break even mark soon after iTMS's intro by a couple pennies according to the estimates and now it's estimated that Apple makes about 5 cents a track after paying the costs.
    10. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      No, enough is not said. Why is FLAC better? Both are lossless and so have the same quality. Both have similar file sizes (FLAC is a few percent smaller typically, but there's not much in it). ALE has a lower CPU cost to decode, making it better for mobile playback. FLAC is open and patent-free, making it easier for third parties to support. Which is better is quite subjective.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    11. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Woah there cowboy. Word on the street is that ITMS now makes money.

      Please don't pay attention to all those clueless articles. A slew of them were written and printed right after an analyst wrote about how he thinks Apple could start making money, in a best case scenario, assuming the record companies split the profits in the same proportions on DRM-free music as on DRM'd music and assuming the DRM free offerings take off. No one, but no one with a clue has offered up even a reasonable explanation as to how they think Apple is making any real money on the ITMS now, aside from via motivation for iPod sales.

    12. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by yoasif · · Score: 1

      They are about equivalent in file sizes. Of course, FLAC has the edge in being open source, thus being supported on more platforms with less worry about the format being abandoned.

      The iPod probably would have used FLAC instead of ALAC had the iPod been powerful enough to decode it on the fly or had been lighter on the CPU and battery. It seems like a waste to invent another format (R&D, support costs) when a free one works just as well (see Apple's usage of KHTML, etc.).

      The rumor is that FLAC may be supported in Mac OS X Leopard by default (and presumably in a forthcoming version of Quicktime) -- now the question is whether iTunes will support FLAC metadata (please iTunes devs, if you are reading, do this!).

    13. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by |/|/||| · · Score: 1
      I'll take open and patent free, please. If there's an encoding that's "better for mobile playback" then I'll reencode the audio for my mobile device. For actually building up my music library, it's gotta be lossless, DRM-free, and as open as possible. So far CDs are still the best option in that regard, although they are 1) not electronically distributed and 2) too expensive.

      --
      [javac] 100 errors
    14. Re:ITunes Producer now uses Apple Lossless by m50d · · Score: 1
      The iTunes Store is effectively a loss-leader to sell iPods. Jobs has said as much already.

      Bollocks. If that were the case, why wouldn't they allow Real to sell music for the ipod?

      --
      I am trolling
  4. Obvious? by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a big step in the right direction, although it's unclear exactly what Apple means by 'higher quality,' and there is no mention of price changes.

    It seems pretty clear to me-- they're offering the same pricing scheme that they've announced with EMI. They will continue to sell 128 kbps DRM-wrapped AACs for $0.99, but will additionally offer 256kbps DRM-free AACs for $1.29. Anyone familiar with Apple's tactics will tell you that they'll want to keep it simple. They'll offer the same pricing for the same product across the board.

    I'd guess that this is all transitional anyway. Apple will continue to try to pressure labels to drop prices and remove DRM on everything. In the mean time, this is a step in the right direction.

    1. Re:Obvious? by TheMeuge · · Score: 1

      It's interesting that as the cost of distribution is rapidly going down to 0, the price per song keeps going up. In an age where you needed a large industrial plant to form and press vinyl, then ship to local stores, and then pay for rent and workers to sell the things, I would understand the current music prices. On the other hand, when it costs <$5000 for a session at a luxuriously-equipped studio, maybe another $20'000-50'000 for the services of a good sound engineer to master then thing, and then virtually nothing to upload the song to a website, you'd think the price would be different. But no, this is breaking one of the key laws of consumer marketing - once prices go up, they will not come down, regardless of the expenses.

      In an ideal world, I would wonder why artists need a middleman any longer at all. After all, why couldn't they just negotiate with iTMS directly. But then I remember that radiowaves and music television are monopolized, and artists who do not sign with the big names will receive no exposure in the mainstream media. /sigh

    2. Re:Obvious? by shmlco · · Score: 1

      Actually, I read somewhere that about a quarter of all of the artists on iTMS were independent, or signed with "independent" labels that handle negotiations with Apple for them.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    3. Re:Obvious? by vought · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But no, this is breaking one of the key laws of consumer marketing - once prices go up, they will not come down, regardless of the expenses.

      Convenience has gone up. That's what you are paying extra for.

      Pizza delivery proves that people will pay more for convenience, especially in a culture that is moving toward cocooning at home in front of the TV and computer.

    4. Re:Obvious? by Penguinisto · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I suspect that prices will begin to come down once two things happen:

      1) iTMS gets some actual competition at the same ease-of-use level, yet maintain complete interoperability with it. It wouldn't take much technically to rig up a competing app that runs across platforms and make it sync tunes in and out of the iPod (gtkpod can almost do this now in Linux, I think?) - the interoperability part is the kicker, however... I don't see Apple making that easy by any stretch.

      2) DRM finally dies in music firmware (or at least obviates it, depending on the implementation of #1 above), once and for all, allowing freely transferrable music... and on its way down, I believe that the last hangers-on to DRM (Hello, MSFT?) will forcibly drive down their prices (even at a loss) just to stay competitive. I could (almost... almost!) see MSFT making the Zune itself 100% DRM-free at some time just as a last gasp to keep it alive as well. Yes, I know about SanDisk and etc... but they haven't managed to make the same name and ubiquity for themselves, and don't have nearly the marketing budgets.

      /P

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    5. Re:Obvious? by adona1 · · Score: 0

      I wonder if it's also a clever way of Apple raising the price of downloads? $0.99 has become a ubiquitous price for music downloads, but if they sell a better product at a higher price, then phase out the DRM-laden $0.99 songs, what would be left? Dropping the price of something that is still selling isn't really that common...

      --
      Between the falling angel and the rising ape
    6. Re:Obvious? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      1) iTMS gets some actual competition at the same ease-of-use level, yet maintain complete interoperability with it.

      I'm not sure how much that will help, since most of the current price of iTunes music is just set by the labels.

    7. Re:Obvious? by mstone · · Score: 1

      You're working from the assumption that consumers value music as a physical commodity, and that just isn't the case.

      In general, consumers value entertainment as a function of time. The going rate is around $5/hr.

      There are just too many free variables for people to rate the value of entertainment strictly on its merits. A movie I'm willing to watch ten times might leave you cold, and vice versa. In the long run, it's easier just to assume my time is worth $N, and amortize my entertainment experience accordingly.

      A movie ticket costs $7.50 where I'm from. The movie itself will average out to about 110 minutes. A DVD costs $15-20, and we can assume that people will watch a movie they buy at least twice. CDs cost $10-15 for roughly an hour's worth of music, and we can assume that most people will listen to the entire album three times, or listen to specific tracks enough to make up three hours of listening time.

      $0.99 per song translates to 12 minutes of entertainment time. $1.20 translates to about 15 minutes. At an average of 3 minutes per song, people will generally feel that they're getting decent value for money on any song they'd be willing to play half a dozen times.

    8. Re:Obvious? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      especially in a culture that is moving toward cocooning at home in front of the TV and computer.
      Please don't use the word cocooning in that context. It makes me think that American couch potatoes are somehow preparing to metamorphasize into giant corpulent moths that seek out patrons of fast food establishments and chain restaurants in which to lay their eggs.

      ...hmm, this intrigues me, off to write a screenplay...
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    9. Re:Obvious? by Mr.Ziggy · · Score: 1

      I think everyone here is missing the point. Sure, Apple wants DRM-free AACs to compete with all the free MP3's floating around.

      BUT Apple is in the business of selling iPods and iPhones, and the way storage is changing, people need LARGER files to justify all the different models and pricing structure.

      Doubling the file size means halving the number of songs you can carry, so you might want to spend that extra $75 on the bigger iPod.

    10. Re:Obvious? by radish · · Score: 1

      Pizza delivery proves that people will pay more for convenience

      How so? Pizza costs the same at all the places near me whether they deliver it or I go pick it up (that's what "free delivery" means). If I actually want to go somewhere and sit down and have a waiter bring me a pizza, that'll cost considerably more.

      I mean I don't disagree with the premise, convenience is an important aspect to pricing, but the pizza example doesn't seem like a very good one. A better one would be the fact that I pay $2.50 a pop to have my shirts washed and pressed rather than do it myself or have my wife do it. Or that I pay $200 a month for a parking space near my apartment rather than spend 10 minutes driving around looking for a spot on the street every time I want to park.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

  5. Now we just need free pricing. by supabeast! · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hopefully Apple will eventually allow labels to set their own prices. There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of old songs languishing at barely measurable sales numbers-I think that a hell of a lot of those could sell pretty well at $.25 or $.50. We could see back-catalog price wars! It would also allow smaller labels labels and independent musicians to compete by leveraging their lower overheads--one can sell for less when a album was self-produced in a week with no advance and no A&R guys to feed.

    1. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by osviews.com · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they do this... they open the Pandora's box of also making new songs higher priced.

      Personally... I prefer the consistency approach.

    2. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, letting the labels set their own prices WON'T result in lower prices. Here major label logic for you:

      Popular Tracks: Need to cost more to cover the demand for them
      Unpopular: Need to cost more to cover the cost of making them available.

      If anything 99 cents will be the 'base' cost and things will just go up for there.

    3. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of old songs languishing at barely measurable sales numbers-I think that a hell of a lot of those could sell pretty well at $.25 or $.50.

      Or at least $.05, if allofmp3.com proved anything. Whatever the price point is there's a lot of money being left on the table because the labels aren't smart enough to go after it.

    4. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by supabeast! · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they do this... they open the Pandora's box of also making new songs higher priced.

      So what if they do? It's just new music; nobody needs it to survive, and nobody is being forced to buy it.

    5. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by Llywelyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, its amazing if you steal something how cheaply you can then sell it for.

      Less flippantly: an item is worth what the market will pay for it.

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    6. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by natrius · · Score: 1

      Or at least $.05, if allofmp3.com proved anything. Whatever the price point is there's a lot of money being left on the table because the labels aren't smart enough to go after it. To suggest that allofmp3's price point is the optimal one is pretty unreasonable. At $.05 a song, the labels would likely make less off of their back catalog than they do now for $1 a song. Lower price points would definitely help a lot of songs, but allofmp3 isn't proof of that.
    7. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by trentblase · · Score: 1

      Not really. Just because you can convince one person to buy something at X cost, doesn't mean it's worth X. If nobody else buys it, you can't really say "well, Joe paid X for it, so that's what it's worth". In this scenario, Joe is the entire market for your product. But more exactly, he's the entire market for your product "at that price".

    8. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by trentblase · · Score: 1

      What's the optimal price for intellectual property? I'm sure the record labels would like to charge each person based on their willingness to pay.

    9. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by piecewise · · Score: 1

      "Hopefully Apple will eventually allow labels to set their own prices."

      Yeah. They're be MUCH more expensive. Apple has led the fight in keeping music prices low.

      --
      The next comment I write will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
    10. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by Hes+Nikke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, letting the labels set their own prices WILL result in lower prices. Here [sic] Indy label logic for you:

      RIAA Tracks: prices just went up, and customers aren't happy with that
      Indy Tracks: 25 - 99, we'll make it up in volume! :D

      --
      Don't call me back. Give me a call back. Bye. So yeah. But bye our, well, but alright we are on a shirt this chill.
    11. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by aztracker1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Agreed, people are willing to pay a lot more for the latest from (insert pop star of the week) on their cell phone, for a fraction of the song, at a fraction of the quality.

      I don't care if they charge $3 for whatever the #1 pop single is... more power to them.. that's what a free market is about... If I can get the new Bionic Jive album from iTMS for
      I think the price lock really sucks... it would be easy enough to give the big labels, and independents a control panel to set their own pricing. If people aren't buying, they can lower it... Hell, could even make it so they can only go up in price on a song/album once... IE, first 1000 downloads of Jessica Simpson's newest single go for $.25, then jumps to $3... then can only go down from there... Could be used as a better promotional tool.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    12. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you can convince one person to buy something at X cost, doesn't mean it's worth X.

      The parent said "the market", not one person.

    13. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by mstone · · Score: 1

      Sounds nice in theory, but it would suck in practice.

      Let's say some label pulls out a bunch of the unpublished Lena Horne tracks that have been sitting in the vaults for God knows how long, and the things end up selling like mad. Do you think Edgar Bronfman would just shrug and say, "well, we set the price at $0.25 per track, so I guess we're stuck with that."?

      Not likely.

      What the labels will do is track sales so they can maximize the price of anything that actually sells. And since this is all on computers, they have the capacity to adjust the numbers hour-by-hour or minute-by-minute if they really want to. It would take about ten minutes to write a script that tracks sales numbers and imposes a price bump on any song that sells more than X copies in Y amount of time.

      The end result would be a system where 90% of the music online at any given time would be priced less than $0.99 per track, but 90% of the music actually sold at any given time would cost more than $0.99 per track.

      And that doesn't even begin to consider the effects of per-person price hikes, "people who bought X also bought Y" hikes, etc. It would only take trivial adjustments to the software already in place to build a system guaranteed to screw you on the stuff you actually want, while still offering low, low prices on the stuff you'd never even consider buying.

      And please don't bother to discuss how this would be bad for Apple. That's a given, but Apple wouldn't be the one setting prices. Prices would be set by the labels, who still think they're entitled to a $1-per-Zune fee "because we all know your customers are thieves, anyway." The labels won't give a flying damn if their pricing structure puts the iTunes Store out of business, as long as they can cream as much money as theoretically possible off its death.

    14. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hopefully Apple will eventually allow labels to set their own prices.

      I don't know where you're from, but in most of the world, the store decides the price of the goods it sells.

    15. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      RIAA Tracks: prices just went up, and customers aren't happy with that
      Indy Tracks: 25 - 99, we'll make it up in volume! :D
      Doesn't matter if the indie tracks never get radio and tv play. Songs are not commodity goods, you can't simply replace a RIAA Top 40 track with an indie track.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    16. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by Llywelyn · · Score: 1

      To blatantly steal an example.

      Let's say that we have an item where for $7 200 items would be demanded, $8 180, $9 150, $10 110, and $11 60. Assume that I can't produce it for less than $7 due to fees, negotiated agreements, or whatever other reasons.

      How much should I charge, assuming minimal distribution/creation fees, to maximize my profit?

      Well, I'm looking at making the following in revenue, case-by-case:

      $1400
      $1440
      $1350
      $1100
      $660

      In this case, all else being equal, I'd want to sell the product for $8. Sure, I'd lose some customers this way, but the overall revenue is higher. If someone else can undercut me successfully, then all else being equal (this is an important phrase, it comes up a lot in these kinds of discussions), then customers will naturally gravitate towards that individual (this is where the concepts of a perfectly competitive market and market efficiency kick in--competitors can lower the value of "what the market will bear" by affecting that curve).

      If I can beat that number selling for less, and all else is equal, then naturally I should sell for less. If I can beat that number selling for more, and all else is equal, then I naturally should charge more unless there is a compelling reason not to. This is a simplified view, of course, but it carries the point: you price an object based on what the market, as a whole, will bear.

      --
      Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
    17. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In this case, all else being equal, I'd want to sell the product for $8. Sure, I'd lose some customers this way, but the overall revenue is higher.

      You'd rather make $180 profit than $330? Why?

      The thing to maximize is profit, not revenue.

    18. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by node+3 · · Score: 1

      I don't care if they charge $3 for whatever the #1 pop single is... more power to them.. that's what a free market is about... Except we're talking about the music industry, which is pretty much as close to being the opposite of a free market as you can get.

      Price-fixing, monopolies, artificial-scarcity, coercive tactics... How many of these a proper to a free market?
    19. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by asninn · · Score: 1

      Actually, this is about as far away from a free market as it can possibly be. In a *free* market, everyone would be able/allowed to sell the songs, and the one with the lowest price and/or best service would win out; as it stands, there's ultimately pretty much just one company you can get a specific song from - the copyright holder, who thus ultimately controls the market.

      I'm not saying that abandoning copyright would be a good idea, but we SHOULD keep in mind that it IS a monopoly; if I want to compete with someone who sells toasters, I can just build my own toaster that offers more features and/or sells for a cheaper price, but I cannot record my own version of a successful song and position that against the original (and if you're going to say that I could record a different song now... yes, I could, but that would be more akin to selling, say, coffee machines because someone else is already selling toasters and I'm thus not allowed to sell toasters I built myself and that are not exact copies but still based on the same principles and basic design myself as well).

      Just saying - any time copyright is involved, there BY DEFINITION is no free market.

      --
      butter the donkey
    20. Re:Now we just need free pricing. by Bearhouse · · Score: 1

      Absolutely! My wife & I used to have 'WinMX' evenings back in the old Napster days, (I still remember thinking, 'maybe this internet hype really is true' one night when there were over 15 million people reported online, sharing songs..)

      We'd search for old, half-remembered songs just for fun. 'Just give 'em whiskey' from Colorbox took an hour to download from some guy in Japan... I've probably still got that song somewhere, and don't feel bad about 'stealing' it, since I'd tried to find & buy it for years... But since then, I've listened to it -say - twice. Would I have paid a buck for it? Probably not. 10c, no problem...

      In fact I'd be happy to install some client to check all the old MP3 I've got knocking around & 'legalise' them, (even the ones I've ripped off my own CDs) if the price was right. Maybe get a discount for quantity and by allowing the sw to 'upload' songs they had not got yet, (if properly tagged and stuff). *rushes off to patent idea*

  6. Translation by suv4x4 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Many of you have reached out to iTunes to find out how you can make your songs available higher quality and DRM-free. Starting next month, iTunes will begin offering higher-quality, DRM-free music and DRM-free music videos to all customers."

    Translation from Jobs-esque:

    "People asked for DRM-free content, and EMI said fine, but we'll charge more. So we said, ok, we'll up the bitrate and justify the higher price with that."

    1. Re:Translation by suv4x4 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Translation from Jobs-esque:

      "People asked for DRM-free content, and EMI said fine, but we'll charge more. So we said, ok, we'll up the bitrate and justify the higher price with that."


      Actually here's an even better translation:

      "EU asked for DRM-free content, and EMI wanted higher prices. So we said fine, we give you higher prices (we'll justify with bumping up the bitrate), you give us DRM-free tracks & we got a deal."

    2. Re:Translation by mashedbananasoup · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just wondering.. Is the price hike with higher bitrate a similiar justification to the older change in format from cassette tapes to cd. Didn't the record labels do that? Claiming its new technology! so it'll cost ya. But is it apple doing this now?

    3. Re:Translation by suv4x4 · · Score: 1

      Just wondering.. Is the price hike with higher bitrate a similiar justification to the older change in format from cassette tapes to cd. Didn't the record labels do that? Claiming its new technology! so it'll cost ya. But is it apple doing this now?

      You could draw some parallels I guess. Everyone does that.

      I'm, for example, now under the dilemma whether to pony up the upgrade price on Photoshop CS3, given they added almost nothing of value to me as a web dev except a new intimidating interface and few obscure photo editing tools. Maybe not.

      Of course, if you got the CD or DRM tracks, you could play that on your iPod and noone stops you.

    4. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually here's an even better translation:

      "EU asked for DRM-free content, and EMI wanted higher prices.


      From what I've read EMI did not want higher prices, it was Apple's decision to charge 30 cents more. Couldn't find the interview anymore online, though...

    5. Re:Translation by diamondsw · · Score: 1

      What, and there's a problem with that? Albums are still the same price as before, so this is still very competitive with CD's. Prices do change ocasionally, and I'm glad to see the additional quality (recall - this will mean twice as much storage and bandwidth for Apple to deliver to you). Or did you think that songs will still be $0.99 in 20 years, regardless of changes in technology?

      --
      I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
    6. Re:Translation by Kjella · · Score: 1

      I think it's important in so many ways, most of them political. It has perfect deniability every which way you want it. Sales go booming? RIAA: "Consumers want higher quality music." Sales flop? RIAA: "See? It's not DRM locking customers in" even though the flop might be because of the 30% price hike and halved capacity of their iPods for music they can't hear the difference on, at least not on the run. Apple gets to point at it and say "Hey, we are offering a DRM-free version, blame the studios" without actually having to get the other studios on board. And if it takes off, Apple is still fine with that. They have the players, they have the store, they are in every position to keep that gravy train running as long as they stay out of anti-trust problems.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re:Translation by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      That may actually be to offset the cost of using 2x the bandwidth to deliver said songs though... iTMS' bandwidth isn't exactly free...

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    8. Re:Translation by mstone · · Score: 1

      addendum:

      The whole record industry has been watching album sales collapse thanks to the iTunes Store making it easy to buy single tracks, so let's bump up the bitrate on albums while leaving the price the same, and create some new demand for full-album sales.

    9. Re:Translation by alphamugwump · · Score: 1

      The actual hosting and distribution is much less than the cost of the song. Crappy consumer comcast at monopoly prices is less than $1/GB. Same for disk space.

    10. Re:Translation by mashedbananasoup · · Score: 1

      No problem, the thing is cds did cost more to produce initally, so the price hike was justified. Over time manufacturing costs lessened, the price however did not. Don't get me wrong, I think the removal of DRM is indeed a good thing and also Im all for higher bitrates. One of the major problems I have with most music today is the life and soul has been compressed out of music. This change is for the best, and i bet some day we'll be listening to the highest quality of music on our 40terrabyte ipods that came free with breakfast cereal. But a price hike each step of the way... No thank you sir. But that of course remains to be seen, so for the time being I look forward to finally using the itunes music store. Do i expect tunes to be $0.99 in the future? Probably not, but i dont expect the rigid pricing structure to remain the same either. Different prices for different tunes. Personally Id pay an arm and a leg for a good tune whatever the format. (someones elses limbs obviously)

    11. Re:Translation by yoasif · · Score: 1

      For those people on the newer intel based Macs, CS3 brings intel native binaries -- not running Photoshop in "emulation" is likely worth the upgrade price to many professionals.

    12. Re:Translation by suv4x4 · · Score: 1

      For those people on the newer intel based Macs, CS3 brings intel native binaries -- not running Photoshop in "emulation" is likely worth the upgrade price to many professionals.

      Right, but I'm on Windows. So I'm basically paying to help my Mac colleagues have native performance. Nice (since of course I'll need to open their CS3 PSD files).

    13. Re:Translation by Chrontius · · Score: 1

      Actually, yes.

  7. Redundant? by liegeofmelkor · · Score: 0

    If it's DRM-free, it IS higher quality. There's no need to state it twice as "higher quality and DRM-free." The "higher quality" bit is just for the music exec's who wouldn't be able to make that connection on their own.

    1. Re:Redundant? by FedeLebron · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's encoded at a higher bitrate AND DRM-free.

    2. Re:Redundant? by evilbessie · · Score: 2, Funny

      But but but, DRM is an "Enabling Tool"...

    3. Re:Redundant? by xenn · · Score: 1

      That's really just mincing words. I do agree with you though, if it's DRM-free then it's a better product, but the simple fact is it's not better quality unless it is, and in this case it looks like it is, not because it's DRM-free, but because it has more samples per second or less compression. Some of us want that.

    4. Re:Redundant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Complete this sentence: DRM is about enabling tools to...

    5. Re:Redundant? by fangorious · · Score: 1

      Complete this sentence: DRM is about enabling tools to... recognize a joke.

    6. Re:Redundant? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      No, it isn't redundant. The higher quality refers to the audio stream, the DRM-free refers to the wrapper. Most people got that.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    7. Re:Redundant? by liegeofmelkor · · Score: 1

      Jesus, all the replies took this seriously. Next time I'll make the heading, "Sarcastic," ok?

  8. Disruptive technology by MrOion · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I am not very concerned about this DRM-thing. I have for a long time said that the market will "fix" this, one way or another. If the customers don't accept DRM, they will get pirated versions without it -- and those who wants to earn money from these potential customers have to adept an acceptable technology.

    "Disruptive technology" anyone?

    1. Re:Disruptive technology by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      "those who wants to earn money from these potential customers have to adept an acceptable technology"

      How? Let's see here, there is free and unencumbered allowing free redistribution and there is everything else. If it can be redistributed, it will be for free. Thus ends any possible revenue.

      How long until people post their iTunes DRM-free purchases for P2P sharing? Tomorrow. Maybe the next day at the most. Why would anyone purchase from iTunes when you can get the same, identical product for free elsewhere?

      That's the point of this. There cannot possibly be any revenue from music any longer. Yes, they are competing with free but they are also competing with their customers sharing their purchases. Maybe everything gets bought once. Maybe. And then it joins the world-wide music catalog of P2P.

      As soon as the last person gets over the idea that stealing music is wrong and illegal, there will be no more revenue from recorded music. And we are doing an excellent job of training youth today, so that day is coming Real Soon Now.

    2. Re:Disruptive technology by imemyself · · Score: 1

      How long until people post their iTunes DRM-free purchases for P2P sharing? Tomorrow. Maybe the next day at the most. Why would anyone purchase from iTunes when you can get the same, identical product for free elsewhere?


      How would iTunes having DRM free music do anything at all to stop this? Guess what, search for just about any song on a torrent tracker, or other P2P client, and I'm sure you'll find it. As long as CD's are sold, it will happen. iTunes getting rid of DRM will do nothing at all for this, except giving people who don't mind purchasing music, but don't want to put up with DRM another option. That's a Good Thing.

      --
      Every time you post an article on Slashdot, I kill a server. Think of the servers!
  9. Why Pay more? by fermion · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The $10 per album on itunes is cheaper than most CDs, so the reduction in quality, and the inconvenience to remove the DRM, can well be justified.

    However, $13 per album is on the order of a CD. So, for the same money I can get a bad copy with no DRM, or a good copy with DRM, the only hassle is the 3 minutes that it takes to rip, and the need to physically purchase the product. Though iTunes is still a reasonably good deal, it is no longer the great deal it once was.

    I will admit for single track purchases the money for the DRM free is compelling. I can see them moving toward a 100% DRM free collection, with a $1.29 price tag. This in a time when the value of CDs are plummeting. WHat did Steve Jobs say? iTunes has to compete with free? How exactly does this scheme do this?

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:Why Pay more? by Donniedarkness · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you misunderstood something-- Apple is offering HIGHER quality AAC's w/ NO DRM for $1.29. The $.99 deal still applies for the DRM'd version, which is the same quality it always has been (or at least, as far back as I remember).

      --
      Earn a % of cash back from Newegg, Tiger Direct, Walmart.com, and more: http://www.mrrebates.com?refid=458505
    2. Re:Why Pay more? by Kenshin · · Score: 4, Informative

      The price of DRM-free albums remains unchanged. It's only DRM-free singles that go up in price to $1.29.

      --

      Does it make you happy you're so strange?

    3. Re:Why Pay more? by wall0159 · · Score: 1


      It doesn't say it in the friendly article, but I read somewhere that the price of albums will stay the same, and they will be DRM-free, 256kbit/s.

    4. Re:Why Pay more? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and the need to physically purchase the product.

      Don't discount *that* - that's the argument in a nutshell. I have to spend $10 in mileage costs to go buy a physical CD. If I was billing the round-trip time to a client instead of driving to go get it that CD probably costs well over a hundred dollars (not that I work 24/7/365 - I sleep too, but you get the point).

      I will admit for single track purchases the money for the DRM free is compelling.

      Yeah, especially if you don't have to give up the sound quality as well. I have CD's that I've tried ripping to 128K AAC and it's not good enough to replace the CD's for all needs.

      WHat did Steve Jobs say? iTunes has to compete with free? How exactly does this scheme do this?

      Some people would rather download the lossless or high-quality track from P2P rather than buy a very lossy version from iTunes (see the above for reasons why they might not just go buy the CD).

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    5. Re:Why Pay more? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Which is still lower quality than a CD, so I am paying about the same for lesser quality. And I can rip the CD at 320, lossless, or, if I have the space, even AIFF. Not to mention that I have to back up the music anyway if I get it off iTunes.

      I am sure that the iTunes will still provide a value, but when the average CD is $12, I hardly see why a degraded copy should be worth more. This is exactly what Jobs was rallying against when he started iTunes. You can't compete against free when you charge more than the physical product.

    6. Re:Why Pay more? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot that in the EMI deal, people who purchase a full album will get the same $10 rate as previous DRMed versions.

      And you need to have very good equipment and ears to distinguish between the 256kbps AAC and original CD, especially with the poorly mastered CDs that get released these days. Combine this deal with the previously announced complete-my-album deal, and you have a very high value music store for the average consumer.

    7. Re:Why Pay more? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey idiot:
      Albums will remain at the same price for DRM-free, whether it's for $10 all the way up to $20 (albums are variably priced already, though most are $10). It's only singles that get the price increase for higher quality.

    8. Re:Why Pay more? by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      I have to spend $10 in mileage costs to go buy a physical CD. At $3/gallon for gas, you're using more than 3 gallons to drive to the music store and back? Do you live at the center of a giant labyrinth, or do you drive a stretch Hummer?
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    9. Re:Why Pay more? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      At $3/gallon for gas, you're using more than 3 gallons to drive to the music store and back? Do you live at the center of a giant labyrinth, or do you drive a stretch Hummer?

      IRS mileage costs for 2007 are about 49 cents a mile. It's not just the cost of gas.

      The CD store is 10 miles away.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    10. Re:Why Pay more? by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Rather disingenuous, Most albums I buy have between 12 and 17 songs on them. That at the store is AUD$30 brand new or roughly AUD$20 on special (most of the albums I buy are old, New music is crap, in fact its not even music), from itunes it's 12 to 17 times AUD$2.00, which is between AUD$24 and AUD$34 for the DRMed versions. I'd wager the non-DRMed versions will be between AUD$2.60 and AUD$3.00 (probably AUD$3.00 seeing as media companies think that shafting Australians is a good idea, no wonder piracy is rampant over here). I'd happily pay AUD$2.00 for the Doors, Nirvana or Metallica if it were not DRMed but I wouldn't pay a cent more.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    11. Re:Why Pay more? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      I have to spend $10 in mileage costs to go buy a physical CD Maybe it's time to trade in the Hummer.
    12. Re:Why Pay more? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's time to trade in the Hummer.

      You don't deduct mileage on your taxes, do you?

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    13. Re:Why Pay more? by radish · · Score: 1

      Don't discount *that* - that's the argument in a nutshell. I have to spend $10 in mileage costs to go buy a physical CD. If I was billing the round-trip time to a client instead of driving to go get it that CD probably costs well over a hundred dollars (not that I work 24/7/365 - I sleep too, but you get the point).

      There, fixed.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

  10. Wait a minute by Richard+McBeef · · Score: 5, Funny

    How am I supposed to manage my digital rights now?

    1. Re:Wait a minute by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      How am I supposed to manage my digital rights now?

      That's easy... let the multipurpose device /dev/null manage it.

      /P

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re:Wait a minute by anaesthetica · · Score: 1

      Nice username. Don't let anyone tell you it's too soon.

    3. Re:Wait a minute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How am I supposed to manage my digital rights now? Carefully ... carefully .... careful ... L-Y
    4. Re:Wait a minute by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Not to worry - your DVD player will still have plenty of UOPs to keep your rights managed for a while yet.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  11. How DRM-less? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But can I import them into iMovie or Final Cut (Express or Pro)?

    I'm not a music collector. I can fit all my CDs into one carrying case with their jewel cases. But if I can get per-track purchases able to be mixed into my own video projects without hassle or fee (for my personal use) I may buy a few tracks.

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    1. Re:How DRM-less? by crayz · · Score: 2, Funny

      You get DRM-free audio encoded in a non-proprietary format, what do you think?

    2. Re:How DRM-less? by RustNeverSleeps · · Score: 2, Informative

      They'll be DRM-free so of course you can import them into iMovie or Final Cut. Of course, you can already do so even with DRMed iTunes files. Apple has had support for using iTunes purchases in iMovie for a long time.

    3. Re:How DRM-less? by Riquez · · Score: 1

      But can I import them into iMovie or Final Cut (Express or Pro)?

      I don't know about Final Cut - but with iMovie/iDVD : Yes, you can. & you can do that with the DRM'd ones also.

      All your music is available to drag & drop onto a movie in iMovie/iDVD through the media tab. "Import" actually makes it sound harder, it's actually an effortless action.

      --
      * Game Over * High Score: 264,846,927 -- Your Score: 14
    4. Re:How DRM-less? by ruprechtjones · · Score: 1

      Are you re-selling your video projects? Are you trying to advertise your local taco hut with "Free Bird" as their theme song? Then you're screwed.

      --
      Kip Hawley is an idiot.
  12. What we reallly want... by djfake · · Score: 0, Troll

    As I said before, we want better quality music (although this 256 nonsense is not it - what about lossless or flac?!) and what Apple wants is their AAC to become the defacto standard over mp3.

    --
    www.itjerk.com
    1. Re:What we reallly want... by fangorious · · Score: 5, Informative

      what Apple wants is their AAC to become the defacto standard over mp3.

      AAC isn't Apple's codec. It's the MPEG group's replacement for MP3.

    2. Re:What we reallly want... by PipOC · · Score: 1

      Apple doesn't care about making aac standard, they chose it purely because it's cheaper to license than mp3. I just wish they would move to FLAC. The lack of a licensing cost would more than makeup in the increase of needed bandwidth.

    3. Re:What we reallly want... by Criffer · · Score: 1

      Close.

      Advanced Audio Coding is MPEG-2 part 7, with enhancements in MPEG-4 part 3. It's not a replacement for MP3 (MPEG-2 part 3), it's an alternative, which has existed for just as long as MP3 has.

      See ISO/IEC 13818-7 and ISO/IEC 14496-3.

    4. Re:What we reallly want... by Alioth · · Score: 1

      It's not Apple's AAC. You know what AAC's usual name is?

      MP4.

      An iPod is an MP4 player. Anything that plays AAC is an MP4 player. My Linux box plays MP4 files, and plays stuff from my iTunes library just fine.

    5. Re:What we reallly want... by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      what Apple wants is their AAC to become the defacto standard over mp3.

      AAC isn't Apple's codec. It's the MPEG group's replacement for MP3.

      ...but, it has two, count them, two!, A's in the name! One of them must stand for Apple!

    6. Re:What we reallly want... by Smurf · · Score: 1
      Advanced Audio Coding is MPEG-2 part 7, with enhancements in MPEG-4 part 3. It's not a replacement for MP3 (MPEG-2 part 3), it's an alternative, which has existed for just as long as MP3 has.

      Close.

      Except that MP3 was originally MPEG-1 part 3. And from page 1 of ISO/IEC 13818-7 (warning:PDF file) (page 7 of the PDF):

      This International Standard describes the MPEG-2 audio non-backwards compatible standard called MPEG-2
      Advanced Audio Coding, AAC [1], a higher quality multichannel standard than achievable while requiring
      MPEG-1 backwards compatibility.

      Thus, what the GP said, ("AAC [wikipedia.org] isn't Apple's codec. It's the MPEG group's replacement for MP3."), is pretty much correct.
    7. Re:What we reallly want... by Criffer · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected.

      However, MP3 also refers to MPEG-2 part 3 layer 3, which is an enhancement to MPEG-1 part 3 layer 3 supporting more than two channels. So I was right in that AAC existed in the same specification as MPEG-2 audio layer 3, but not the original MPEG-1 audio layer 3.

  13. There's the rub by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It would also allow smaller labels labels and independent musicians to compete by leveraging their lower overheads--one can sell for less when a album was self-produced in a week with no advance and no A&R guys to feed.

    This is exactly why I'd expect the RIAA to pull out of iTunes if they allow this. No matter what, they don't want an efficient market - not when they're selling artificial scarcity.

    It's interesting to see Apple as the potentate with the ability to change the music industry with small changes in policy. I think they're doing a good job as benovolent dictator, but there's some deeper meaning, I'm sure, to the fact that iTunes is only 5 years old and we're talking about things this way. The power of the Internet to change markets, demonstrated, perhaps.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:There's the rub by supabeast! · · Score: 1

      This is exactly why I'd expect the RIAA to pull out of iTunes if they allow this. No matter what, they don't want an efficient market - not when they're selling artificial scarcity.

      You need to stop buying in to the idea that the RIAA being made up of, and mostly representing, the big labels. The majority of the RIAA's members are small record companies, and there are even some independent musicians in the list. Even if all the big four record companies all pulled out of iTunes, almost all of the RIAA already part of iTunes would still be a part of iTunes.

    2. Re:There's the rub by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Even if all the big four record companies all pulled out of iTunes, almost all of the RIAA already part of iTunes would still be a part of iTunes.

      Fair point. s/RIAA/Big-4 Labels/g on my post. I'll be more conscientious next time - thanks.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    3. Re:There's the rub by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if all the big four record companies all pulled out of iTunes, almost all of the RIAA already part of iTunes would still be a part of iTunes.
      That's not gonna happen. One of the big four, EMI, already agreed to do so. At the most there are 3 big ones that may pull out. However, if Jobs's words are any indication, I think he already got another one in his pocket. I bet it's Warner. Universal is still smiling from its victory over the Zune royalty and wants one from the iPod. Sony, well, it's Sony. They love their DRM.
    4. Re:There's the rub by G-funk · · Score: 1

      Ha! Big labels have been trying to get Jobbs to let them set their pricing since day 1. They want to sell you crap music for 15c/track you won't buy for 99c. More importantly, they want to charge you $2/track for whatever's hip right now, to drive cd single sales.

      --
      Send lawyers, guns, and money!
    5. Re:There's the rub by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Didn't the RIAA push for flexible pricing before? I swear I saw an article about it on Slashdot, but I can't find it. Basically they wanted to raise the price of certain releases, and lower the price of others to about $.70 IIRC.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    6. Re:There's the rub by nine-times · · Score: 1

      They want to sell you crap music for 15c/track you won't buy for 99c. More importantly, they want to charge you $2/track for whatever's hip right now, to drive cd single sales.

      Well it's not very clear what they wanted. Publicly, all they said is that they wanted "variable pricing", but the rumor was that it was more about pushing some tracks up to $2.00 than pushing other tracks down to $0.15

    7. Re:There's the rub by graceless24 · · Score: 1

      This is exactly why I'd expect the RIAA to pull out of iTunes if they allow this. No matter what, they don't want an efficient market - not when they're selling artificial scarcity. The RIAA will never pull out of iTunes. It doesn't make sense financially. I work in the music industry, and have been to many RIAA meetings/conferences.... Yes, the internet has created a fertile place for indie's to produce and and distribute music, and if I were one of the major 4 labels (WB, SonyBMG, EMI and Universal) I would be a little fearful of what the indie's are doing--both indie artists and indie labels. That's why the labels need to start changing their business models. EMI has taken the first step towards that by releasing DRM-free music. Recently in Nashville, there was a Digital Summit sponsored by Leadership Music, an organization dedicated to networking and discussion about the industry. Terry McBride, the CEO of Netwerk Music Group (a full service label/management company with artists like Barenaked Ladies, Sarah McLaughlin and other Triple A acts) gave the keynote address about lauded EMI for their move. He further encouraged other labels to "get off their as*es" and change the way they do business. Netwerk has started doing that with the way they present their products and the options they give consumers and the results have been great for them and their artists--they're giving artists a reason to sign with a label rather than go it alone as in indie. But the RIAA will never pull out of iTunes--it has proven to be too lucrative. What needs to happen, and most of the brass at the labels already know but never act on, is that the label business model should change to adapt to the growing digital market. They all talk about how they need to change everything--but three of the big four labels haven't done a thing to move towards the change that needs to happen. Luke Lewis, President of Universal Music Group/Nashville recently said at a conference, "I am managing a declining business. Until we figure out how to fix it, I'm just making the death a little less painful with managament."

  14. Patience Motherfucker, Do you speak it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I want DRM-free FLAC before I start buying music downloads and this is a step in the right direction.

  15. Charge! by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    "EU asked for DRM-free content, and EMI wanted higher prices. So we said fine, we give you higher prices (we'll justify with bumping up the bitrate), you give us DRM-free tracks & we got a deal."

    Your translation is well-done, and likely accurate. Here's my take on it:

    "Awesome - who cares if a track costs $1 or $1.3 if it's DRM-free?"

    I plan on upgrading all of my iTunes guilty pleasures ASAP. If this is the battle that's going to turn the tide on DRM, I'm all in.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:Charge! by trentblase · · Score: 1

      Nooooo! Wait for lossless!

    2. Re:Charge! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      One thing I haven't seen clarified. If you upgrade tracks to DRM-free, higher-quality, you only pay the price difference. But for albums there is no price difference, so if you bought full albums then do you get the higher quality upgrade for free, or do you have to pay the per-track upgrade price?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  16. This sucks by catbutt · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When Jobs came out with his "Thoughts on Music", I made all kinds of cynical comments saying that he was being disingenious for this or that reason. After all, Job's in incredibly successful and people all over the world laud him and his company's products, so he NEEDS to be brought down a notch.

    Well now he's making me look like an ass.

    1. Re:This sucks by TPIRman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're hardly an ass, as you're one of few skeptics to admit that your original (hardly outlandish) accusations turned out to be wrong, which makes you more intellectually honest than many self-appointed DRM wonks. That group includes, most notably, Cory Doctorow, who blasted Jobs in a Salon article after "Thoughts on Music" was first posted on Apple's web site. When Jobs came through on his pledge, Doctorow was pleased but never saw fit to mention, "Hey, I probably went a bit overboard with that screed in Salon."

      Unless...Cory, is that you?

    2. Re:This sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cory Doctorow is a hyperbole-spouting, Disney-obsessed, self-important ass. There, I've said it.

    3. Re:This sucks by Shawn+Parr · · Score: 1

      Well now he's making me look like an ass.
      Not to be a troll, but I find it highly amusing that a user with the nick 'catbutt' feels that he/she looks like an ass. Somehow that just made my day. I know, it's sad.
  17. Upgrades? by hack++slash · · Score: 1

    Will Apple allow users who have purchased DRM encoded tracks the chance to re-buy them without DRM at a reduced price, or will they have to fork out a 2nd time the full amount for the same tracks without DRM? (much like having to re-buy your favourite films every few years because someone comes out with a newer higher quality format)

    --
    To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
    1. Re:Upgrades? by fangorious · · Score: 1

      Will Apple allow users who have purchased DRM encoded tracks the chance to re-buy them without DRM at a reduced price

      The original EMI deal included $0.30 upgrades from the 128/DRM version to the 256/non-DRM version. You can upgrade whole albums, too, but I forget the cost there.

    2. Re:Upgrades? by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      You can buy albums, with or without DRM, for $9.99 minus whatever you paid for individual songs.

  18. Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by Infonaut · · Score: 5, Funny

    To sum up the list of objections to this move by Apple:

    • Apple is still not offering something for nothing, which pisses me off.
    • This is just a big PR stunt. Apple isn't really doing this for the right reasons, so it's still wrong.
    • This should have been done a long time ago, so the fact that they're doing it now makes it evil.
    • Apple is just trying to make their EVIL, proprietary AAC (Apple Audio Compression) dominate the free, open, wonderful MP3 format!
    • I don't like iTunes, therefore this move toward the elimination of DRM in music doesn't help me. This is Apple's fault. They're evil.
    • Steve Jobs wears sweaters. I hate sweaters. Sweaters are evil. Therefore, Jobs is evil, and so is Apple.
    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
    1. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Funny

      He wears turtleneck sweaters ok? If that aint Dr Fuckin' Evil, I don't know what is.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by wall0159 · · Score: 1


      You forgot:

      -iTunes doesn't run on Linux

      (I'd love a Linux iTunes client tho... I plan to actually shop there when they ditch DRM)

    3. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by Tolkien · · Score: 0

      Apple is just trying to make their EVIL, proprietary AAC (Apple Audio Compression) dominate the free, open, wonderful MP3 format!
      I figure I must be missing something because the rest of your list was funny as heck, but, err... MP3 isn't open or free, not like OGG, at any rate.
    4. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by Infonaut · · Score: 1

      I figure I must be missing something because the rest of your list was funny as heck, but, err... MP3 isn't open or free, not like OGG, at any rate.

      That was exactly my point. AAC is really not better or worse than MP3, from a licensing standpoint. There seems to be widespread ignorance about MP3. People think that because they can obtain MP3 files for free, the MP3 standard is somehow free as in free speech.

      --
      Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
    5. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by Sosarian · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Funny post, but AAC existed before Apple.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding

    6. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by Infonaut · · Score: 1

      Funny post, but AAC existed before Apple.

      That was part of the intended humor.

      --
      Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
    7. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      I know you're purposefully trolling, but I wanted to point out anyways that neither A in AAC stands for Apple. It stands for "Advanced Audio Coding." Second, it's a standardized format.

      However, it is patent-encumbered, but only for people who are developing AAC codecs.

    8. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by grege1 · · Score: 1

      Did DRM only ever exist so they could jack up the price 30% for removing it, and instead of complaints everyone thanks them? :)

    9. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Stop trying to explain satire to the American.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    10. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      'AAC is really not better or worse than MP3, from a licensing standpoint.'

      It is actually better at the moment. For MP3, you can buy a complete package of all licenses reasonably cheap, except that some patent trolling bastards claim they own two more patents covering MP3 and they have already sued Microsoft successfully. For AAC, you can buy a complete package of all licenses relatively cheap, and at the moment there are no patent trolls with patents that they claim cover AAC.

    11. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by Himring · · Score: 1

      [Police Officer]: "Pull over!!!"

      [Harry]: "It's a cardigan, but thanks for noticing...."

      [Source: Dumb and Dumber]

      --
      "All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
    12. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by Devil's+Advocate · · Score: 0

      Actually, they are mock turtlenecks. He is mocking evil.

    13. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Of course, once they ditch DRM, then you can buy tracks using someone else's Mac or Windows machine and play them on your Linux box, BSD box, BeOS box, or mobile phone.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    14. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by kchrist · · Score: 1

      So you're saying you got the joke, but are correcting it as if you didn't anyway?

    15. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      Precisely. It's what we call "anal retentiveness."

    16. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he's mocking turtles.

    17. Re:Jobs and Apple are still EVIL by dangitman · · Score: 1

      He wears turtleneck sweaters ok? If that aint Dr Fuckin' Evil, I don't know what is.

      I think it's just a name. I don't believe they are actually made from turtle's necks. That would be pretty fiendish, because you'd need to use the giant Galapogas turtles in order to fit a human's neck.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  19. Does this mean DVD burning movies from iTunes? by theurge14 · · Score: 1

    The article mentions "DRM-free music videos". That's nice but what about the TV shows and movies also offered on iTunes? Will we burning DVDs from those anytime soon?

  20. Better idea by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    I'm, for example, now under the dilemma whether to pony up the upgrade price on Photoshop CS3, given they added almost nothing of value to me as a web dev except a new intimidating interface and few obscure photo editing tools.

    Why the heck is that a dilemma? Do you owe something to Adobe?

    If you want to spend money on stuff that has no value to you, send it to me and I'll find some crap out in the shed to mail you.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:Better idea by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Probably it is the lack of support, future upgrades and bug fixes. If you fall behind too much you lose all of this and get to pay more for the same upgrade later.

      Alternatively, you can hope you never need any of the above (esp. support and bug fixes) and stick with the old product.

      Even simpler - give your money to the Russian Mob and buy an "OEM Disc" that is really just a pirated version pre-downloaded for you. Force Adobe to compete with the folks selling their $700 product for $29.99.

  21. "Just a ruse to get Norway off his back..." by gsfprez · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Nor-fscking-way???!!

    Every asshat that ever said that can go home, shit on a plate, put some mustard on it, maybe a little tabasco on it... but that is the shit sandwitch of words that you must now eat.

    I guess i'm saddened that so many people are so convinced that everything every company does is for pure evil. Watching Jobs all these years, its obvious that

    a) he doesn't need the money. Seriously.
    b) he's got a track record of being straight with people.

    for instance... when they opened the iTMS in Europe, he said on stage "we wanted to do a single Euro Store, but the copyright holders said no" - and then recently, all the Euros piled on Apple for making it impossible for Belgins to buy songs from the UK Music store.. apple said, again "no, we wanted a single Euro Store - blame the music companies"... and everyone said Apple was lying.

    Well, about a week later, all the music companies came out and said "yeah, pretty much, Euro customers can get fucked, cause we're the ones not letting apple sell the English songs on the French Music Store page... now smeg off, its our content".... and all has gone quiet on the subject.

    Now, we all remember Steve saying "DRM doesn't work, but the music companies forced us into this" - and everyone balked - they all said "this is for iPod lock-in. You can't fool us!" And the din only increased after the Music Manifesto.

    Well, all of you naysayers... all of you that doubted Apple's honesty can just jam it.

    If you will sell your wares without DRM, Apple is happy to oblige. Your arguements are 100% invalidated, and all the blame now rests squarely on the shoulders of the music companies.

    --
    guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
    1. Re:"Just a ruse to get Norway off his back..." by Envy+Life · · Score: 2, Interesting

      a) he doesn't need the money. Seriously. Do you really believe that if someone doesn't need money they no longer take it? Does Donald Trump now do charity work? Did Larry Ellison recently retire? When did US Congressmen stop taking campaign contributions from multi-national corporations? Did Dick Cheney disassociate himself from all his and his friend's oil interests before going along with the invasion of Iraq? I want to live in your world.
  22. Zunior.com by leoc · · Score: 2, Informative

    For the regular price ($8.88 CDN per album) you get 192kbps non-DRM'd MP3's. For $2.00 CDN extra, you get the same album in FLAC format. Their entire catalog is in non-DRM format and they have been doing it this way for a lot longer than Apple. As an added benefit, they a support all platforms equally, so you can use Windows, OS X or even Linux to browse and buy music.

    --
    STFU about slashdot bias.
    1. Re:Zunior.com by mblase · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Their entire catalog [zunior.com] is in non-DRM format and they have been doing it this way for a lot longer than Apple.

      Your argument is significantly undermined by the fact that their entire catalog consists of artists and labels I've never heard of before in my life.

      They could price their albums at $1.25 apiece, and most people still wouldn't be interested.

    2. Re:Zunior.com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah, but my iPod (and the other many millions of out there) don't play FLAC.

      Nor does iTunes, to my knowledge.

    3. Re:Zunior.com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Install Rockbox on your iPod and your iPod will play FLAC.

      Wikipedia about Rockbox.

    4. Re:Zunior.com by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, you can reencode flac files to another format without the risk of horrible artifacts (which would be a issue if they were AAC or MP3).

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    5. Re:Zunior.com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $8.88CDN IS $1.25US. So, they already tried that pricing scheme. Obviously it didn't work in the US!

    6. Re:Zunior.com by AaronLawrence · · Score: 1

      What a horrendous website. Doesn't even bother to categorise music by genre. (Yes, I know that genres are subjective, but at least they give you an idea where to start). Instead there is an enormous list of obscure record labels and bizarre categories like "arts and crafts music"?

      --
      For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
  23. Perfect quality! by rmdyer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'll give them $2.00 a song if they will give up on this compressed stuff and sell me lossless. I'd like to have the same music that comes on the real CD. That way I can compare a checksum with a "global public" value, and make sure they haven't watermarked the song. They could even go to $3.00 a song for people who are aficionados and release the 24 bit stuff.

    So we have...

              $0.99 = DRM'ed AAC at 128kbps
              $1.30 = Non-DRM'ed AAC at 256kbps
              $2.00 = Non-DRM'ed, lossless.
              $3.00 = Non-DRM'ed, 96KHz-24bit per Channel.

    Still dreaming.

    1. Re:Perfect quality! by giffnyc · · Score: 1

      If you're willing to pay $3.00 / song, and your ears appreciate such a high bitrate -- why not buy CDs and rip them? Your needs are pretty specialized -- given iTunes vast audience, I doubt it will ever fully support the audiophile requirements. Its unlikely it could be profitable for such a small audience.

    2. Re:Perfect quality! by ppanon · · Score: 1

      why not buy CDs and rip them?Maybe because most CD's only have one or two worthwhile song on them these days. So $3 [+3] $16, not counting time for ripping the album and the convenience of web-based sampling and instant gratification.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    3. Re:Perfect quality! by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's funny is that he wants masters that don't even exist for a huge majority of stuff that's out there. Sure, some things have been mastered at 24/96, but those are generally only the things that have been released on DVDA and SACD. A good 95+% of the stuff out there was mastered for a 16-bit, 44.1kHz delivery mechanism. But let's not quibble with the minor details of reality...

      --
      This guy's the limit!
    4. Re:Perfect quality! by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Funny

      $3? $3?!!

      For $3 per song I want the band to come play live in my drinking establishment.

      $3.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    5. Re:Perfect quality! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'd like to have the same music that comes on the real CD" Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't audio CDs 16 bit?

    6. Re:Perfect quality! by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      They could even go to $3.00 a song for people who are aficionados and release the 24 bit stuff.

      He didn't mention himself in that statement. Still, there's a market for it, as there are enough people willing to pay $200 for a digital audio cable that somehow improves the sound, as well as other wonky expensive sound system parts to form a measurable market. Why wouldn't apple/the music industry want to get in on it?

      While the average pop song won't be improved by it, I'm sure people who appreciate classical music and have a sound system that can play it would appreciate the extra capability. iTunes doesn't just sell pop music, after all.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    7. Re:Perfect quality! by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Oh come on. Are you going to tell me that you can even hear the difference between 256kbps AAC and lossless? And why do you care about watermarking? Unlike DRM, watermarking doesn't prevent you from doing what you want with the media. It's not anything likely to be abused in any way. If you know of any problem that watermarking will cause non-pirates, please let me know.

    8. Re:Perfect quality! by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      ...and make sure they haven't watermarked the song. Why do you care if they watermark the songs? Watermarking is an excellent solution to protecting digital content while preserving fair use.
    9. Re:Perfect quality! by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      I don't think there would be enough takers even for the lossless to financially justify any such changes. I have no doubt there would be a market for both lossless formats, but they would simply be too small. Many people out there can't even tell the difference between 128kbps and 256kbps. So, yes. Still dreaming.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    10. Re:Perfect quality! by profplump · · Score: 1

      While the average pop song won't be improved by it, I'm sure people who appreciate classical music

      I forgot, only classical music benefits from higher quality recording and encoding. All that newfangled music from kids these days sounds the same no matter how your record it.

      Later will you tell us how you keep the kids off your lawn?

    11. Re:Perfect quality! by Firethorn · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Please note that I said average pop song. They've been engineered to sound best in the audio quality available on a CD. On the other hand, classical music was designed to be enjoyed in person(no other real choice those days), and generally use a much wider frequency range.

      I used classic music as the most obvious example. Still, there's many forms of music that could benefit from a higher rate source, Jazz, rock, even many pop songs.

      If it becomes common enough, people will start producing more music for it. Still, that's fairly unlikely because building a music system capable of reproducing the music costs far more than a system barely capable of playing CDs decently.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    12. Re:Perfect quality! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Maybe because most CD's only have one or two worthwhile song on them these days. So $3 [+3] $16, not counting time for ripping the album and the convenience of web-based sampling and instant gratification. Have you ever considered listening to bands that don't suck? I'm so sick of this argument. There's more music available now then at any other time in history. If you're listing to musicians that only put out one or two good songs per album you have no one to blame but yourself.
    13. Re:Perfect quality! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      What's even funnier (to me) is that many Apple fanboys believe that most music on the iTunes Store, even at 128kbps, sounds better than CD quality because it is sourced from better-than-CD masters. They believe this bullshit because Steve Jobs said this at the iTunes Music Store launch in April 2003: "some of them sound better than CDs because we went back to the master copies."

      "Some" is very vague. It could mean 2 songs in their entire catalog. Mac fans like to believe it means most of the songs.

    14. Re:Perfect quality! by wall0159 · · Score: 1

      "drinking establishment" - only on slashdot would you read that. It's a bloody pub, mate.

      (yes, I'm Australian ;-)

    15. Re:Perfect quality! by sokoban · · Score: 1

      I think that right now at least, lossless downloads are too large for most people served by the iTunes store. iPods simply don't have the room for a large lossless collection. I have a 40GB 4th gen, and it holds far less than half of my music in apple lossless format (about the same size as FLAC). 24/96 files are even worse. Those files are huge. Even compressed losslessly they are around 1GB per hour and do not play on my iPod.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 is the magic number.
    16. Re:Perfect quality! by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      me too.

      I just recognise that not everyone else is.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    17. Re:Perfect quality! by PhotoGuy · · Score: 1
      For $3 per song I want the band to come play live in my drinking establishment.

      And pay for my drinks!

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    18. Re:Perfect quality! by zenkonami · · Score: 1

      I can tell the difference. In blind tests, no less. Admittedly the accuracy goes down with increased bitrate, but I can hear the difference between many 24bit/96k recordings and Redbook.

      Some of us actually listen to our music.

      Have to agree about watermarking, though. Don't really care if they add a few extra bits as long as it doesn't frack with my audio.

      --

      Do You Experiment?
    19. Re:Perfect quality! by Scudsucker · · Score: 1

      "Some" is very vague. It could mean 2 songs in their entire catalog. Mac fans like to believe it means most of the songs.

      "Apple fans" is very vague. It could mean one or two people in the entire computer using population. Anti-Apple fanboys like to believe it means most people who use Apple's products.

    20. Re:Perfect quality! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First of all, pratically NOBODY has access to 24bit/96k recordings.

      Second, if you can tell the difference then you're listening to the QUALITY of the recording, NOT the fucking music.

      And third, isn't it time for you to go to the store to buy 500$ magnetically-shielded optical cables?

    21. Re:Perfect quality! by radish · · Score: 1

      Agreed 100%. I don't understand this "one good track per album" thing either - I buy albums, not "songs" (which is a pretty useless term seeing as most of what I listen to is instrumental). Anyhow, to satisfy the usual complaints about getting off your ass and going to a store, I use iTunes to preview stuff I might want to buy and then order it from Amazon. Couple of days later the CD arrives at my door - a quick rip to flac and I'm done.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    22. Re:Perfect quality! by yoasif · · Score: 1

      If the "watermarking" works anything like Macrovision (the technology that causes DVDs to become distorted when viewed throw a VCR's line in/out), it might mean that they are introducing new, perceptible artifacts into the data stream (changing, however infinitesimally the audio stream). If they are able to add the "watermark" without changing the audio at all, it should make little difference pragmatically.

      However, the more interesting part of all of this is that if the content is watermarked, it's effectively still DRM, albeit a much, much less restrictive form than most current DRM schemes. The "right" that is being "managed"? Free copying of the file without leaving traces of (potentially damaging) personal information. I'm sure that stripping such a watermark would be a violation of the DMCA (for those of us in the US), or other, similar DRM protection methods enacted into law.

    23. Re:Perfect quality! by 605dave · · Score: 1

      The whole concept of a Master is somewhat confusing. Let's clear up what 'mastered' really means, and why your statement is somewhat wrong. First lets make sure everyone is clear on what a Master is.

      Since the transition in studios to recording to multiple tracks, there has been the need to 'mix down' the various tracks to what is generally referred to as the 2 Track Master. In plain english this simply means some sort of final mix that has a left and a right channel. There have been many formats over the years, but generally before the 80s you mixed down to a 1" or 2" reel to reel master. In the 80s people started transitioning to DAT players as the de facto format. In the 90's this was supplanted by simply 'bouncing to disk', meaning letting your application mix all the tracks internally, creating a final two track file on the computer. Now remember, this is what is happening at the Recording Studio, not the Mastering Studio.

      So here's where most people get confused. Once you have created your 2 Track Master in the studio (tape, DAT, whatever), you typically send it to what's called a mastering studio. Now why do that if you just went to all the trouble to mix it yourself? Two reasons. First every studio has built in acoustical characteristics (flaws, even with great treatments). That means that no matter how good an engineer you are, there are going to be things just slightly off most of the time. A mastering room is built and equipped for that one task only, and typically has veeeerrry good acoustics and specialized gear. (and way back when they even pressed the "master" vinyl that the factories would then duplicate. get it?) The second reason is that the mix from the studio will need to be tweaked for different formats. Back in the 80s for example, you might have one master for the LPs, one for cassettes, and one for CDs. This was necessary because each format would have different acoustic problems. For example, if you put too much bass on a LP, it will skip. This is one reason the modern hip hop/rap, heavy bass sound wasn't even possible until the cassette and CD. As a side note, many of the original CD releases in the 80s were simply digitized versions of the LP masters, which had a lot of the bottom muted. When you see a 'remastered' CD, what that typically means is that they went back to original studio 2 Track Master, and redid it with the CD format in mind.

      So to be clear. The Partridge Family goes to a recording studio, and each member is recorded onto a separate track. In the end after all the parts are done, they are mixed down to a 2 Track Master. That 2 Track Master is then taken by the mastering studio and processed. The mastering studio then delivers the Final Master(s) (or Gold Master) to whatever duplication plant was applicable. For practical purposes, lets just say that the Final Masters were analog pre 80's, and digital since.

      Now lets clarify how higher bit rates for a consumer audio format could help or not in these different scenarios.

      First is the days of analog, prior to the 80s. Ironically, these are the recordings that will benefit the most from re-mastering at a high bit rate. Because you can go back to either the original 2 Track master (or Final Master) in an analog format, capturing at those higher rates will capture more of the original performance. The whole point of higher bit rates is to more accurately recreate an actual analog wave sound, so this is where you we see the biggest benefits to the music.

      Now once you get into the 80s, things get very complicated. Some of you might remember when CDs first came out, there was a code on the back the read something like AAD, or DDD. What that is referring to is the three stages of delivery, analog or digital.. The first letter is the multi track format from the recording studio itself, which was usually an A until the 90's. Remember, when digital first hit most studios were still using analog reel to reel tapes. It wasn't until ProTools, ADAT

      --
      Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a difficult battle. - Plato
    24. Re:Perfect quality! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or a coffee shop...

    25. Re:Perfect quality! by ppanon · · Score: 1

      Well, part of it is that I dance a lot of West Coast Swing and usually no more than a song or two per album is appropriate to that dance. While I'll sometimes really enjoy the rest of the album and buy it (John Mayer's Continuum being a good example), that doesn't happen too often. My personal musical tastes often run quite differently from what I would dance to. I like a good melody and harmony and a little instrumental (or vocal) complexity, and I don't find too much of that in a lot of modern hip hop unless it's been sampled from somebody else's work.

      Yes there are some very good blues bands, some very good bands doing interesting stuff (Paris Combo rock!). But a few summers ago, I heard some musicians do a jam in a backyard near here that sounded better than most of what I hear on the radio.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    26. Re:Perfect quality! by steelfood · · Score: 1

      I believe there are analog masters too that can be resampled at 24bit. And if not, just release the ones that have been mastered at 24bit with a 24bit option. But provide that option.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    27. Re:Perfect quality! by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      agreed.

    28. Re:Perfect quality! by dangitman · · Score: 1

      This is one reason the modern hip hop/rap, heavy bass sound wasn't even possible until the cassette and CD.

      Nonsense. That's why you isolate the turntables from vibration induced by the speakers. That's why DJs frequently have their decks suspended in the air. Use good quality, thick vinyl and you're good to go with heavy bass.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  24. Who gets the money by Nutty_Irishman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Out of curiosity, who gets the $0.30 for the songs, Apple, the producer, the musician? A quick search didn't turn up anything.

  25. Important by Shaltenn · · Score: 1

    Do people who have bought DRM-crippled low-quality versions get some sort of discount/upgrade option to the higher-quality DRM-free music.

    --
    If you were offended by anything I said... No, I'm not sorry. Please lighten up.
    1. Re:Important by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      Is that a question.

    2. Re:Important by byjove · · Score: 1

      From their initial press release: In addition, iTunes customers will be able to easily upgrade their entire library of all previously purchased EMI content to the higher quality DRM-free versions for just 30 cents a song. and "iTunes will also offer customers a simple, one-click option to easily upgrade their entire library of all previously purchased EMI content to the higher quality DRM-free format for 30 cents a song. Sorry, can't get the url to show.

  26. Re:Whoopty-do. AAC itself is proprietary and locke by am+2k · · Score: 1

    My Nokia phone plays AAC pretty well, so I don't quite get your point. AAC is as much a standard as MP3 is one.

    Besides, once there's no DRM, you can transcode it to whatever format you want, even right in iTunes.

  27. Top 40??? by fyngyrz · · Score: 3, Informative
    but for all those people looking for DRM-free top-40-type music, dream come true, eh?

    Mmm, no. Not just top 40. Apple carries all manner of classic rock, hard rock, symphonic, blues, and more. beat them up for DRM (OS or other) all you like, but let's not just lie about things, ok?

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Top 40??? by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      ...symphonic...

      What's unfortunate, at least last time I checked, is that they really haven't figured out a good way of cramming all the different pieces of metadata that are critical to classical music, into the fields designed for pop.

      On a typical pop song, you're generally only interested in the name of the band, the name of the song, and maybe some basic genre info; a better system would also get the year, BPM, and maybe the artists' real names.

      But for classical music, at minimum you need to know the name of the composer ("Beethoven, Ludwig van"), the piece ("Symphony No. 7 in A major, Op. 92"), the section ("Third Movement - Presto"), the orchestra ("London Philharmonic"), the conductor ("Karajan, Herbert von"), and the year (because the same conductor might have done multiple recordings of that piece with that orchestra at different times); really you should also have the names of the soloists, if any, broken out independently, too.

      As far as I can tell, everyone seems to have their own little system for cramming all that data into the few fields that are available. It's certainly not as bad now as it was back in the early MP3 days -- at least there's a "Composer" field now -- but it's still pretty bad otherwise.

      It's not like pop music wouldn't benefit from a lot more fields, too -- it would be cool if stuff like the production staff were listed in their own fields, since with a lot of pop music, the real talent isn't in front of the microphone, it's in the editing afterwards -- so it wouldn't be just for classical music buffs.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    2. Re:Top 40??? by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Completely agree, and the sad thing is, we're in no way short of space and there is no reason in the world to limit such metadata. Could be done like camera data; not in fields you'd sort in a table, but a list of qualities that might come up in a window, essentially of no limit at all. So you could have everyone's name, not just the soloist, plus the fellow who did the album art, that dapper little fellow who tuned the tympani...

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    3. Re:Top 40??? by Alioth · · Score: 1

      If you're looking for non top-40 stuff, eMusic is a good deal less expensive and has been DRM free since it started. I've not used iTMS since they stopped jHymn from working - fortunately, eMusic has *completely* filled the gap.

      The only disadvantage of eMusic is you pay a monthly fee rather than a fee per track so it's not for everyone, but you only have to buy one album's worth per month for it to work out cheaper.

    4. Re:Top 40??? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      New versions of iTunes support 'artist' and 'album artist' fields. This allows you to put an orchestra and soloist in the metadata, which is an improvement. The underlying tag format supports arbitrary key-value pairs, so it would be possible to add more. The only requirement is to get people to agree what is needed and then support viewing it in the GUI. Perhaps turning 'artist' into a list of 'artist1' to 'artistn' fields would be a solution? You already have composer, year and BPM, and comments.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:Top 40??? by captainjaroslav · · Score: 1

      I think the answer might lie not in more fields, but in repeatable fields. I'm drawing on my experience as a library cataloger here. The record format that we use most commonly in my field is called MARC (for MAchine Readable Cataloging... or "Cataloguing" if you are in an English-speaking country other than the US), and, instead of having a field for every possible role a person or corporate body (not as in a corporation in the business sense of the word, but in the literal sense, so "The Beatles", "The Berlin Philharmonic" or "Blue Note Records" would all be considered corporate bodies), there are fields for names which can be repeated for every name you want to add to a record and a subfield can be applied to each entry, identifying the role the person or corporate body plays in the production of the work.

      I believe this makes the database-programming end of things a little more complicated, but it has many advantages. Records in such a system can be as simple or as complicated as the user desires. If one is only interested in a simple song title-artist-album record, then s/he is not confronted with 50 empty fields upon viewing the track's metadata template. On the other hand, if I want to enter every performer on a particular Miles Davis track, as well as the original composer of the songs performed, I can do that.

      The hard part on the user's end is actually getting all the data in there. I reserve a special "holding area" folder in iTunes for stuff that I've added recently so that I can fix the metadata to conform to my own standards before I let it loose in my library. (Obviously, it's already in the library as soon as it's in iTunes, but I don't remove songs from the "holding area" until I've reviewed the data.) I don't actually buy anything from the iTunes store, but I probably will now that DRM-free stuff is going to be there. (I haven't noticed a way to limit a search in the iTS to only DRM-free music yet, though, which makes it harder. I don't remember which of the artists I like are on EMI, probably not many. I certainly hope a lot more labels go this way now that the offer is open.) I have downloaded music from other places, though, and found metadata attached that was just plain stupid. Data from CDDB, applied automatically when I rip a CD, is a little better, but I usually still need to tweak it. More data would mean more bad data, which would mean more time fixing the data every time I added more music to my library. In the library-cataloging world we have standards for the formatting of names and other data and people with Masters' degrees doing the data creation. We can then share records with each other, saving a lot of time and money, with a reasonable assurance of data quality. A world where the data attached to downloaded music is that rigidly controlled exists only in my OCD-fueled fantasies.

      --
      I'm just sayin'.
    6. Re:Top 40??? by Mr+Jazzizle · · Score: 1

      My point was that you can get "all manner of classic rock, hard rock, symphonic, blues and more" from emusic at a much lower price, the reason to go with iTunes is because they DO have the 'top 40' and more popular music. I know iTunes has a huge library of lesseer/unknown artists, but you pay the price on the lesser known ones for the access to the ones getting all that radio play.

  28. Not really by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Because it is cheaper to distribute. If I were in a business and I figured out a way to cut my costs in half, you'd probably call me an asshole if I didn't cut my prices at least somewhat. In fact, if I was in a business where there was completion, it wouldn't matter since if I failed ot, someone else would and I'd lose money. Cost going down and price going up is not progress.

    1. Re:Not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing Apple has a lot smarter people working for them than you, figuring out exactly what to charge to maximize their profits.

      When iTunes stops making a gajillion dollars a month then maybe you can use your obviously keen understanding of economics to help them out of the red.

    2. Re:Not really by baldass_newbie · · Score: 1

      Cost going down and price going up is not progress.

      No, it's economics.

      --
      The opposite of progress is congress
    3. Re:Not really by jayratch · · Score: 1

      While this is true, the obvious issue at hand is that while the "cost" is lower due to less software required and fewer technology royalties (which are a non-cost since its Apple's own tech), their are other aspects in which the cost is raised. The bandwidth is an increased cost since the 256 files are often around double the file size. Then there is the perceived "opportunity cost" due to opening up the possibility of P2P sharing of purchased music.

      While I understand the logic of feeling that cost and price should be related, in retail these two factors are so vaguely related. For instance, in parts of Long Island, rent for a small retail store can be upwards of $20,000 a month. In that case, a potential customer may question a $29.99 retail price of an item that wholesales for less than $10. But then it must be considered that in order for such a location to be profitable, accounting for other expenses like manning (perhaps $20,000 a month for a medium end retailer), then the location would need in excess of $1,200 a day of "gross profit" to even break even. Hard to accomplish on a $20 per item margin with anything less than 60 such sales. (That being said, not everywhere in the country finances billionaire real estate barons, and chances are a server farm has lower rent).

      That all being said about costs, there is the other side of the equation, value. Price is not and should not be based merely on a function of cost. That's what makes some businesses more profitable than others and where we get a concept of margins. Price increasing after several years of a business plan, especially if value is significantly added. The new DRM-free itunes tracks are usable in more devices than just the downloading computer and ipods. They are now playable in cell phones, car MP3 players, set top players, and other brands of portable music players. Not to mention that removing the DRM lifts the 5 computer limit. And the difference in quality is not insubstantial- on an audiophile system, DRM'ed itunes tracks are generally intolerably fuzzy, while 256 or above tend to be near "real" CD quality.

      If not for whole albums, plastic backup and all being often priced $10 or less (plus tax and gas) at retailers like Best Buy, this would be the moment that I and other audiophiles finally embrace the ITMS.

  29. Re:Wake me up... by mblase · · Score: 1

    Oh, and when you can buy a song for what it's actually worth.

    Well, that was nice and specific. /Still buys CDs anyway, so don't actually wake me up even then

    The record labels love you for wasting money needlessly on their behalf.

  30. Apple's Deception by AoMoe · · Score: 1

    It is hard to determine if Apple is challenging the record labels to allow all music to be DRM free, or if this is just PR. The deception is that if Apple really cared about the consumers then they would open iTunes/iStore to work with other players. This is possible, no matter how much the Apple brain trust tries to convince us otherwise. It is assumed that iTunes only work with Apple's iPod series of DAPs. Offering DRM-free content is good for those that own iPod, but mean nothing for those that don't or have not intention on purchasing one.

    1. Re:Apple's Deception by koreth · · Score: 1

      Non-DRM-encumbered AAC files will play on any player that supports AAC, e.g. the Zune or most (all?) of the Archos players. And it's a pretty safe bet that other hardware vendors will be adding AAC support pretty quickly once Apple starts actually selling its non-DRMed music. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here; exactly what else could Apple do to open iTunes to third-party players?

    2. Re:Apple's Deception by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is hard to determine if Apple is challenging the record labels to allow all music to be DRM free, or if this is just PR. The deception is that if Apple really cared about the consumers then they would open iTunes/iStore to work with other players. This is possible, no matter how much the Apple brain trust tries to convince us otherwise. It is assumed that iTunes only work with Apple's iPod series of DAPs. Offering DRM-free content is good for those that own iPod, but mean nothing for those that don't or have not intention on purchasing one.

      Wrong, wrong, wrong. Apparently you both don't know anything about what you're talking about, and you've never paid attention to previous discussions on the subject.

      First, Apple's DRM-free AAC is not iPod-specific! AAC is an established standard, and, at the very least, it's more open than MP3 is. There are other players that support it.

      However, despite that, it's still in Apple's best interest to make iTunes iPod-friendly to the exclusion of other players. Why? Because Apple makes their money on hardware. Their profit margins on selling music online are razor-thin; where they really make money is selling iPods to people who decide they want one so that it will integrate with iTunes. There is no financial reason why Apple would go to any length to make iTunes play nicer with other players.

      Finally, why would they "care" about the consumer? They're a company. They exist to make money. They don't care about anybody at all; they just want to make products that you want to buy.

    3. Re:Apple's Deception by Alioth · · Score: 1

      If your non-Apple music player acts as a USB mass storage device, simply navigate into your iTunes Music Library with the Finder, then drag and drop the files to your music player. (Personally, I use rsync to keep my iTunes library backed up to my house fileserver, and to also allow me to play the music from my Linux workstation).

    4. Re:Apple's Deception by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      It is hard to determine if Apple is challenging the record labels to allow all music to be DRM free, or if this is just PR.

      Between the public statements from Apple, and making a deal with EMI and announcing this option is for all record companies that will publish in it, I don't think it is hard to determine at all.

      The deception is that if Apple really cared about the consumers then they would open iTunes/iStore to work with other players.

      Perhaps you're confusing Apple with the Electronic Frontiers Foundation? Apple is a for profit venture and are trying to make money. The fact that they are challenging the existing recording industry cartel and their DRM has nothing to do with altruism. It just happens to align with their business plan. Enjoy the benefits and don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

      This is possible, no matter how much the Apple brain trust tries to convince us otherwise.

      This is capitalism. The question is not "is it possible" but "is it profitable." Apple sells music basically at break even as a way to sell iPods (which they profit on). Apple develops the iTunes store for this purpose. They don't care if it works with other players. They develop the iTunes software to also sell iPods and Macs, so they care a tiny amount if it works with other players.

      What you're basically asking for is for Apple to subsidize other companies. If Creative or MS wants to sell hardware players, why should Apple facilitate that by providing all the infrastructure and software needed? Apple is using a standard format for non-DRM'd music. If other software companies want to support that format, nothing is stopping them. If other music sellers want to support it, nothing is stopping them. If other hardware players want to capitalize on the iTMS, let them support the mp4 format and build software that will manage their music in that format on that device.

      Offering DRM-free content is good for those that own iPod, but mean nothing for those that don't or have not intention on purchasing one.

      Actually i means there is nothing to stop you from interoperating with hardware and software of your choice or migrating software or hardware. That makes a significant difference to a consumer because it removes all lock-in.

    5. Re:Apple's Deception by AoMoe · · Score: 1

      Here is the story. There are people who do not want iTunes on their computer. It is a fact that it is possible to transfer songs from your computer to another a non-iPod player after using iTunes.

      This is just PR. The only record label that has agreed to release their music DRM-free is EMI, and this is for all their music. EMI DRM-free music is not restricted only to iTunes. It is up to the record companies to decide whether or not to release there media DRM-free. No statements to record companies will change this. No speeches by Steve Jobs will change this.

      Apple has given inadequate reasons why interplay with their iTunes music store and other services are not possible. Technically it is. If they are making money on hardware, then why do not they open iTunes. On one side Apple is saying "We are selling DRM-free music, since we know that your want it". On the other side they are saying "Sorry but it is impossible to allow iTunes to work with other players". No wonder people like me are skeptical.

      Anyone with half a brain know that many other players support AAC files.

      You said it. Finally, why would they "care" about the consumer? They're a company. They exist to make money. They don't care about anybody at all; they just want to make products that you want to buy.

      Case in point. Just PR.

    6. Re:Apple's Deception by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Here is the story. There are people who do not want iTunes on their computer.

      So, don't install iTunes on your computer. That wasn't hard, was it?

      It is a fact that it is possible to transfer songs from your computer to another a non-iPod player after using iTunes.

      Right. So, what's your point?

      This is just PR.

      If it were just PR, then they wouldn't actually be offering a new, DRM-free product, would they? The fact is that the lack of DRM (and higher bitrates) is a tangible benefit to many users. It may also be good PR, but it's also an actual difference to the product.

      It is up to the record companies to decide whether or not to release there media DRM-free. No statements to record companies will change this. No speeches by Steve Jobs will change this.

      Again, what's your point. Of course it's up to the labels. They own the right to license the material under their own terms. But Jobs speeches and statements can influence whether they decide to go DRM-free or not. And it appears that is what is actually happening. Many record labels (such as independents) have expressed interest in that since Jobs wrote his essay about DRM and music. EMI (and others to follow) are actually following up on Jobs words. So he doesn't appear to be without any influence.

      On the other side they are saying "Sorry but it is impossible to allow iTunes to work with other players".

      Firstly, Apple never said it was impossible. But it's their right not to - it's their product, and you don't have to use it.

      Secondly, I'm kind of confused. You started by saying you didn't want to install iTunes. Now you are asking that iTunes supports other players, which implies you do want to use it. Which is it?

      Anyone with half a brain know that many other players support AAC files.

      Right. So you can use iTunes-purchased songs with those players. Which is one of the benefits of DRM-free tracks. See? Tangible benefit beyond PR. What exactly is the problem?

      they just want to make products that you want to buy.

      Case in point. Just PR.

      So, the "products you want to buy" have no actual use? They are just PR to benefit the company? That's kind of strange. Why would you buy a product if it had no use to you?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    7. Re:Apple's Deception by AoMoe · · Score: 1

      I want to ask you one question. Do you actually know what I am talking about? No, you do not. Response have clear demostrated that you have not read my original post, or the post that is being responding to. I have expressed my opinion, accept that fact.

      You attempted to twist my words in no way demonstrate that you understand my argument. You enter a discussion over a week later believing that your statements are revolutionary and ground breaking. Unfortunately, the are not. This reminds me a certain CEO. Some refer to this as the reality distortion field.

      I have to laugh at the fact that you actually believe that this move will influence the large companies to allow there must to be DRM free. Remember this. The day the lawsuits about file sharing stops, the day that other record companies may follow EMI.

    8. Re:Apple's Deception by dangitman · · Score: 1

      I want to ask you one question. Do you actually know what I am talking about? No, you do not

      If you are "asking" a question, then why did you answer it yourself? Can you tell me why I supposedly don't know what you are talking about?

      Response have clear demostrated that you have not read my original post, or the post that is being responding to.

      How does my response demonstrate this? I did read your post and the one you replied to . So you are wrong on that matter.

      I have expressed my opinion, accept that fact.

      I do accept that. When did I say that I don't accept someone posting their opinion? I just don't agree with it. All you seem to have as a response is "you are wrong and I am right" without any rational discussion, or anything further to add to the topic.

      You attempted to twist my words

      How did I twist your words?

      If you were meant something else other than the words you wrote, then I suggest the problem might be with the way you express yourself, not my lack of reading comprehension, or some campaign to twist your words. You don't seem like a very skilled communicator when it comes to the written word. Try writing what you mean, and other people might not get the wrong impression.

      The basic thrust of your argument was "Apple sucks, I hate iTunes, and Steve Jobs is full of shit and has no influence."

      So, what did you really mean to say?

      You enter a discussion over a week later believing that your statements are revolutionary and ground breaking.

      Now this is some crazy shit. I don't believe there is anything revolutionary or groundbreaking about my comments. In fact, they are simple, commonsense statements. Why would you think that I believe my comments are revolutionary?

      What relevance does my entering the discussion a week later have? My comments are just as relevant (or irrelevant) whether I rabidly follow slashdot discussions in real-time, or whether I comment one year later. What's the big deal about not responding when the thread is new?

      I have to laugh at the fact that you actually believe that this move will influence the large companies to allow there must to be DRM free. Remember this. The day the lawsuits about file sharing stops, the day that other record companies may follow EMI.

      So, you don't think Jobs had any effect on this. So tell me, why did EMI decide to go DRM-free after Jobs' comments? Do you believe that they were pushing for this before? Why do you think so many smaller labels are now embracing Jobs' offer?

      You or I are not privy to the reasoning of these companies - but there does seem to be a correlation between Jobs talking about getting rid of DRM, and some concrete steps in that direction. So, after you've stopped laughing, perhaps you can tell me why you think EMI have done this at this particular point in time, and why it has suddenly become such a widely dicussed topic in the media, after getting almost no coverage at all?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  31. More expensive by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    A CD is $10 at Wal-Mart. I can buy the hit single for $1.20 without DRM and encoded at a decent rate. Yes, that is progress.

    I have bands I like I cannot buy at any rate at Wal-Mart. Going forward, I can buy a whole album from them for $10 without DRM and encoded at possibly an even better rate. That too is progress.

    In all the ways I as a music consumer act, progress has been made.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  32. Re:Whoopty-do. AAC itself is proprietary and locke by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Informative

    This announcement doesn't mean much at all. AAC is still a proprietary format that only exists in Apple's reality sphere, and outside of iPods and Macs, doesn't have much reason to exist at all other than to have yet another standard out there. AAC is a format only used by two types of people: iTunes customers who have no choice, and the rabid Mac fanatics who will happily jump to a locked, patent encumbered protocol because Apple approves it.

    When Apple comes to the table with something industry standard like MP3, OGG, FLAC, uncompressed WAV, or even (gasp!) WMA, then this will be a newsmaking event. Otherwise, its just the same old stuff. People's music is still locked down in a non-standard format nobody would even go near if it wasn't Apple's baby.

    You are either a uninformed troll or an MS shill but again for the record: AAC is a part of the MPEG standard that is used by many other players like Sony's PS3, MS Zune, SanDisk Sansa e200R, numerous cell phones, etc. The licensing scheme of AAC is even more generous than MP3 as there is no license on distributed content. Also for the record, WMA has never been the industry standard. It was a standard foisted up us by MS which actually suffers from the same defects that you claim about AAC. If you change AAC in your ranting with WMA and Apple with MS, your statements would actually be true.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  33. Re:Whoopty-do. AAC itself is proprietary and locke by MLS100 · · Score: 1

    Huh? AAC is Advanced Audio Coding. It is based on the work of many companies including Nokia, Sony, Dolby, and others. Apple did not create it nor does Apple receive any money from organizations that choose to implement AAC. It was the most advanced audio encoding format available at the time of the iTunes launch and thus a good choice.

    What they DO own, is the m4p protected-AAC container format which has nothing at all to do with AAC; it merely houses the AAC audio data in a way that they can implement DRM. They could implement m4p with embedded OGG, MP3, whatever and you would have no idea other than the audio quality difference. What they are effectively doing away with is just that, the protected container format, meaning that the files will be released (probably) as .m4a which also has nothing to do with Apple other than that they are utilizing a standard.

    True, AAC is not a truly 'free' format, but neither is MP3.

    /MLS

  34. Why bother calling out one tiny label? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why bother pointing out one itsy bitsy label? There are lots of small labels with a small number of relevant bands signed to them - why not Sub Pop or 4AD, or some other label that makes up a tiny, miniscule percentage of the iTMS?

  35. Let's punch that up a little by snowwrestler · · Score: 1

    "We've upped our bitrates and prices--now up yours!"

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  36. Re:Whoopty-do. AAC itself is proprietary and locke by giffnyc · · Score: 1

    AAC is still a proprietary format that only exists in Apple's reality sphere, and outside of iPods and Macs, doesn't have much reason to exist at all other than to have yet another standard out there. AAC is a format only used by two types of people: iTunes customers who have no choice, and the rabid Mac fanatics who will happily jump to a locked, patent encumbered protocol because Apple approves it.


    AAC is somewhat less "proprietary and locked" than MP3. While its true that AAC (and MP3 ) are patented,the patent is held by the MPEG standards organization and only requires payment and a license for the sale of encoders. The MP3 license requires use fees, that is, payments for the distribution of encoded content. The patent isn't held be Apple or any other corporate entity, but by the MPEG folks.

    FOSS implementations are available in source code format.

    The list of vendors that contributed to and promote AAC is much longer than just Apple - they include Sony, Nokia, ATT, and the Fraunhofer Society, largely responsible for the invention of the MP3 standard.

    Almost every modern music player from the PS3 to Neuros to Archos to iRiver to Kenwood car audio players can play AAC, and encoders are available as a stock part of Nero software, as well as FOSS encoders available for the download. It's hard to understand what you mean by "only existing in Apple's reality sphere"

    So while it may be technically proprietary because an IP patent was issued, its hardly as if Apple invented some in-house format that they won't share with anyone. Apple didn't invent it, doesn't own it, and receives no financial benefit from its use.

    By "locked", maybe you mean the DRM applied to most iTunes content -- that has nothing to do with AAC and Apple has shown some tenacity in convincing a major label to risk going without. They may have done so for profit-oriented reasons, but I don't find that reasoning particularly "evil".

    You sound like an anti-Apple troll.
  37. You've never heard of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    the New Pornographers, Frank Black and the Catholics, Feist, Zumpano, Neko Case, Broken Social Scene, Godspeed You! Black Emperor, Hawksley Workman, The Smugglers, The Barenaked Ladies, The Be Good Tanyas, Sarah McLachlan, Shout Out Out Out Out, Tricky Woo, The Inbreds ...


    And as for all the rest, it probably wouldn't hurt you to venture outside of top-40 music and try something different.

    1. Re:You've never heard of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the New Pornographers, Frank Black and the Catholics, Feist, Zumpano, Neko Case, Broken Social Scene, Godspeed You! Black Emperor, Hawksley Workman, The Smugglers, The Barenaked Ladies, The Be Good Tanyas, Sarah McLachlan, Shout Out Out Out Out, Tricky Woo, The Inbreds ...

      Only group there I've ever heard of is The Barenaked Ladies, sorry, and I wasn't a fan of there stuff.

      And as for all the rest, it probably wouldn't hurt you to venture outside of top-40 music and try something different.

      Right, I never venture outside of the top-40. That's why I listen to Romantic Mode, T. M. Revolution, Yousei Teikoku, See-Saw...

    2. Re:You've never heard of ... by Tyir · · Score: 1

      As you may have noticed from the site, it's all priced in Canadian dollars. These are all Canadian artists. I assume you (and the great-grandparent post) aren't from Canada and/or havnt been exposed to Canadian artists. A lot of these bands are pretty big names in Canadian bands. So don't assume that if you haven't heard the band that no one is interested in them.

    3. Re:You've never heard of ... by demars · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I actually thought you were joking (I have moderator points and I was going to mod you funny) until I read down your list and saw Barenaked Ladies (who should be sued for false advertising, by the way! Barenaked Ladies indeed!).

      Besides them and possibly Sarah McLachlan, are you really under the impression that most people have heard of ANY of these?

    4. Re:You've never heard of ... by lisaparratt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just because someone doesn't like the same artists as you doesn't mean they only like the Top 40.

  38. Excellent. No more synching please! by mattr · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    This is great. Higher quality AND no DRM, whereas normally you'd think you would have to pay more for non-DRM. I take this as a serious attempt to get rid of DRM and make customers happy.

    I can be made happier by getting rid of syncing. I HATE to sync! Hate, hate, hate!

    I figure the idea of being able to use only a limited number of computers, and having to sync, is based on Apple's initial wish to make studios happy about their support for drm.

    And there is one good thing about syncing I suppose, I used an Internet cafe computer once that had a hundred songs from in an iTunes library left on it. Huh!

    The iPod's "sync only specific files" interface sucks and is outdated when you can have so many on your iPod too. And if I drag movies to my ipod in the iTunes app it just silently fails instead of say, starting a size conversion thread or telling me why. Dumb.

    And I use my iPod like a hard disk a lot. It would be much better if I can drag music or video onto my iPod to a folder I can play/view from when detached from the computer. How about an expert mode that lets you view all the data in the ipod? And a database at Apple, or some other site like iMDB could be used to update the metadata db in the iPod. Right now everything is nailed down and nearly unhackable (how about a perl app for that Apple?).

    If I could I'd like to ask for the iPod to be able to play video in it while connected, convert movies automatically (Red Kawa's iPod converter is so-so but best I've found on windows, though the Mac based handbrake is cool). I'd like to be able to view website archives and pdfs too, and while I'm at it, I'd like to be able to store absolutely huge astro or landscape photos and be able to zoom in on them with the ipod too. Oh and make it possible to use the ipod tactile interface for pageup/pagedown and maybe up/down/left/right too. A tap code would be acceptable to get into that mode.

    In conclusion now that Apple is working hard to eliminate drm, I'd like them to make the iPod's software more user-friendly too, and they can start by taking the training wheels off. I'm not going to complain about how the video ipod dies after a couple hours of watching video (okay I just did complain but..) however it feels like Apple just used the function built into MacOS to let you plug in another mac as an external hard disk. That's totally 20th century.

    Same about the "corrupted" state my ipod is perpetually in and the "do not unplug" logo. Very fragile I think. They should make use of the iPod screen when plugged in too, and most importantly, dare I repeat myself, GET RID OF THE SYNC! PLEASE! I don't want a sync.

    I want to put music, movies, and ebooks (text or html files) in my iPod, I want to be able to put real sized photos in and read real sized text files with a real sized font size, and I want a real backup of my entire iPod on my hard disk. I don't want to have to delete things from my hard disk to delete them from my iPod or some such insanity. Now that Apple's sold enough of these things they can certainly afford to take the time to stop the insanity and STOP THE SYNC! Thank you.

    1. Re:Excellent. No more synching please! by lightversusdark · · Score: 1

      All of the above, and remote display of the battery charge, please!

      --
      "There is nothing nice about Steve Jobs and nothing evil about Bill Gates." - Chuck Peddle
    2. Re:Excellent. No more synching please! by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Sounds to me like a Sony PSP would suit you better than the iPod. It has most of the features you want.

    3. Re:Excellent. No more synching please! by mattr · · Score: 1

      Could be, I certainly was wowed by my nephew's. I would probably enjoy it but can't see myself with one on the train, I don't play games that much. Probably would prefer a zaurus or a linux-based palmtop. I really like the wilcom which has a phone and wince in it though the keyboard's a bit too small.

      But I do believe that Apple is not making nearly enough use of having Mac OS X on the iPod. At least I think they do! It could be leveraged much more and there really is no excuse for limiting "notes" files to 4K. I mean that is brain dead. The notion that to view a file on my ipod I have to be careful how long a memo is, and if it's a long web page I have to save as a text file and then upload to a free text to notes converter site is totally outrageous. Apple's made 100 million of these things and the reason Blair or whoever mentioned fingerprint readers is that they are indeed useful for storing info. I used to read books on my palm all the time and this has a much more fabulous screen. All I need is the ability to make the font bigger, the ability to page down without twirling around the donut at glacial speed, and the ability to actually open a file over 4K. These things are all totally within reach of a simple software update. So why doesn't Apple do it? So they can sell iPhones??

    4. Re:Excellent. No more synching please! by Smorkin'+Labbit · · Score: 1

      iPod doesn't run a version of OSX; iPhone, however, will. The processor in the iPod is nowhere near powerful enough for that kind of OS. So most of the things mentioned here simply cannot be done on the current iPod generation. The processor is low-performance; as an example with the notes, try loading around a hundred long notes and watch how it takes the iPod (nano, in my case) 20-30 seconds just to parse them enough to be able to present the user with a list of them and their names.
      I don't want to think about how slow an html-reader would be...

    5. Re:Excellent. No more synching please! by truespin · · Score: 1

      You can turn sync off by unchecking the "Sync music" check-box in the music tab of iPod...

      Or you can get it to sync only certain playlists - I have an iPod and an iPod nano playlist which is what I use to sync - I add and remove albums from these playlists and then just plug in my iPod and go. I don't really see your problem with these solutions.

    6. Re:Excellent. No more synching please! by mattr · · Score: 1

      Hi, thanks for your reply.

      But I don't think I agree when you say the iPod is incapable of being an ebook reader. At least when I define an ebook as an ASCII file under 500KB and if possible bold/italic/underline. Maybe displaying gif/png/jpeg though not required.

      The CPU's likely more powerful than the Apple II that had a full word processor on it (felt like emacs a bit). I don't understand why it would have to parse a hundred notes and the name. It only has to load the next screen. Maybe the nano is a weakling but I have a color ipod and this thing is plenty powerful enough, the only problem maybe being the backlight being so strong it probably drains the battery. Anyway nobody's going to read an ebook on a nano-sized screen but I ought to be able to load a gig of text and view it. If I could put a hyperlinked set of manuals on it that would be useful too.

    7. Re:Excellent. No more synching please! by mattr · · Score: 1

      Um I think I knew that already but thanks. That is why I said the non-syncing interface sucks. My main problem is the hiding of files, forcing an easily corruptible model, having underpowered text viewing features, and in general separating the "use as a hard disk" feature and forcing you to basically turn off the iPod to use it as a hard disk. I want to treat the iPod as a hard disk including all songs and video on it, erase from it by deleting files on it, and have a full synced backup of its ENTIRE contents on my computer. The iPod is mobile but the DRM forced it to be tied to a limited number of computers. Completely ignoring that it might be used by people who are nomadic moving between computers and also maybe in a cafe where there are a hundred computers all being refreshed daily. Syncing (as in rsync) might be useful when you want to do it intentionally but it is a total annoyance if you are already connecting the thing via usb and can use the device as an external disk. I hated the troublesome sync on my Palm and with this it is just dumb. Maybe for people who don't know how to use computers but I expect it was 1) because of the MAFIAA and 2) because the mount as hard disk feature is something Apple has experience with in the past. And maybe 3) so people don't mess their iPods up. Fact is I use my iPod more to shuttle and backup data, and play movies, than music. Maybe I store a movie on the hard disk side in the iPod for when I have time to convert it to mp4 (which takes an hour maybe) and launch iTunes and thread it into the other side of the iPod. When I use Red Kawa it sometimes can't even store the mp4 video on the iPod through iTunes, and I have to manually import into iTunes, then copy manually from iTunes library to iTunes on the iPod.

      If I synced I would have my files deleted because they are not on this computer, etc. Perhaps I'm not the main demographic. I want to use the hardware the way I need to use, when I want to. The hard disk mode saved me when I had my site hacked a month ago. The video is fun but conversion to mp4 is extremely painful. Apple certainly could spare to include an mp4 video converter (or wmv player even) that runs when you plug it in. I don't want to slow my PC down when I'm doing work but the CPU on the iPod is just idling while it's charging.

    8. Re:Excellent. No more synching please! by Smorkin'+Labbit · · Score: 1

      One way of getting around the current limitations is to input your text file (or even rtf, if you wish) into an app which cuts down the text into 4000 char or less pieces, and them tying them together using hyperlinks; I guess you know that you can hyperlink to other notes, and even to music, photo and video files with the iPod's built-in note system.
      I've written a small app which takes a tab-separated list (the output from a database app I have listing my books, films etc) and converts it into hyperlinked notes with a start page and alphabetized notes listing info about them, so you can actually do quite a lot already. Writing something similar for converting text docs should be trivial.
      Documentation can be found here.

  39. The purchasing is the inconvenience. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    It's honestly not that much less convenient to rip a CD and store it.

    True, I'll definitely grant that with a modern computer and CD drive, ripping an album is really not that much harder or time consuming than downloading it. (However, as others have pointed out, downloading scales better than ripping in terms of working without user intervention -- you can "fire and forget" a few thousand MP3s but you'll have to babysit a terminal all week to rip an equivalent number of CDs, and human time is expensive compared to pure machine time.)

    The downside of CDs is that they generally require you to go into a store, which requires substantial human (again, as opposed to machine) time. If you're not impatient, you can just buy them via mail-order, though, and not deal with most of the acquisition downsides.

    Personally I buy almost all of my music in the form of Red Book audio CDs, used, from sites like Half.com; to me they're the best of everything -- no waiting in line or dealing with the general obnoxiousness of big-box stores, DRM-free format, a read-only backup, and sometimes some interesting goodies or extras -- generally for less than $5 per disc. However, given how impatient people have become, I think online music is here to stay, if only for the immediate gratification it offers.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  40. Here's the rub by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jobs is pretty clever and seems to be taking the right steps to ensure the public effectively backs his market strategy. The move towards DRM-free and higher bitrate songs is a perfect example: DRM-free will get people on his side on ideological grounds - he is doing the right thing. Higher bitrate will also appeal to people that want to get a better sound from their devices - whether ipods, or the myriad of docking sound systems that are sold everywhere. However, at the same time, higher bitrate songs means bigger files, which in turns increases the demand for newer ipods. As a result, those people who haven't upgraded will do it sooner rather than later. I won't be surprised if there are some other devices in the making as well, or if the demand for larger storage will not tie in nicely with their "tv"-thingy. If this is the case, probably soon enough there will be a move towards newer ipod versions with larger storage capacity and different features, which may or may not continue to support drm-full music. And, given half a change, many people will "upgrade" to a drm-free version of their songs by paying additional money for the privilege. Not to mention that in a few years, should they come up with a newer, better format with higher quality (or even lossless) for all of the songs, people will again be happy to pay for an upgrade of their collection, in addition to forking out money for the next generation of ipod that will have the features and storage requirements for such a format. This can easily turn into the same thing we've done for years - shifting music mediums and formats and paying for the privilege.
    JR

  41. Not likely by mbessey · · Score: 1

    One compelling argument for making music downloads DRM-free is that most music sold in stores is recorded on DRM-free CDs anyway. On the movie/TV side of the aisle, it's all copy-protected DVDs, so the same argument doesn't apply.

    It might be possible to convince the MPAA to sell non-protected content, but the vast majority of what they currently sell is protected, so they'd be understandably sceptical of giving that up.

    1. Re:Not likely by Maltheus · · Score: 1

      There was no copy protection on the HD shows I was watching last night. I had to pay for the rabbit ears, but other than that, I was getting better than DVD quality, legally, for free, with no DRM.

  42. Really? by ZxCv · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't get me wrong, I don't care much for the packaging either, but calling it progress to pay extra for the lack of something is quite bizarre.

    Really?

    There seem to be many people willing to pay extra for the lack of something.

    Like those willing to pay for satellite radio, because it lacks stupid DJ's and excessive ads.

    Or those willing to pay more for their steak, because it lacks the fat and toughness of a cheaper steak.

    Or those willing to pay more for their new car, because it lacks the mechanical problems of a cheaper used car.

    Point being, there are countless times when paying more for "less" makes sense. But then again, in those cases, "less" is very subjective, depending on who is actually doling out the cash.

    --

    Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
    1. Re:Really? by asninn · · Score: 2

      There is a difference between selecting for quality (high-quality/high-price steaks, for example) or removing something that's naturally there (boneless fish comes to mind) on one hand and ceasing to add something YOU YOURSELF added in the first place.

      So, for example, it makes sense to charge more for lactose-free milk since lactose occurs naturally in milk and has to be removed in a process that costs both time and money. If, on the other hand, lactose was only added in the manufacturing process and did NOT occur naturally in milk, then there'd be no real reason why lactose-free milk should be more expensive (assuming, of course, that the lactose would be added purely for taste or similar reasons, not in order to keep other costs down for the manufacturer).

      So there is a difference.

      (And BTW, the example of a new and/or more expensive car lacking something because it might have less mechanical problems than a used and/or cheaper one is downright silly - using that logic, *everything* can be seen as the lack of something else, even if it's just a lack of a lack of a feature. But that's obviously not what people mean when they talk about a "lack" of something, and it's not what the GP meant, either.)

      --
      butter the donkey
    2. Re:Really? by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Like those willing to pay for satellite radio, because it lacks stupid DJ's and excessive ads.
      Well hey, could the reason that they pay more is that the better DJs are more expensive to employ and the excessive ads are a revenue stream?

      Or those willing to pay more for their steak, because it lacks the fat and toughness of a cheaper steak.
      Hey, could the reason be that it's actually more expensive to get a higher quality steak?

      Or those willing to pay more for their new car, because it lacks the mechanical problems of a cheaper used car.
      Building a new car and selling it obviously would cost more in resources than selling a old one you have.

      Your points don't really make sense unless it does cost Apple more money todo this than "needing packaging, delivery trucks, shelf space" etc.

      I'm willing to wager that it doesn't.
      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    3. Re:Really? by Kymri · · Score: 1

      And yet - putting up a radio tower (or buying/leasing the transmitter) is almost always far less expensive than buying sattelite broadcast time, or putting your own satellite. Which should negate some of the need for the ad-related revenue stream and more 'in demand' DJs. Of course those DJs can drive away as many listeners as they attract, much like the music or opinions being broadcast on the station, since it's all subjective anyway.

      Often (speaking of just the meat itself, and the butchering, and not the preparation and so on), the higher cost of higher quality steak is because it has less fat and tends to be less tough, and thus people are willing to pay more to get those cuts rather than the less-desirable ones. High quality and low quality steaks can come from the very same dead cow, and one portion of it's carcass doesn't cost any more to raise and slaughter than another. (Disclaimer: I'm not trying to be inflammatory to vegetarians or meat eaters or whatever in my use of terminology. For the record, I loves me some steaks, and am fine with those who don't, too.)

      An older, used vehicle might be more reliable than a new car, and might cost more in some cases, depending on the vehicles.

      Production cost might be factored into sale price, but at the end of the day, what determines the price that anyone (sane) charges for anything that they're providing or selling is based on what they perceive as what the market will bear (that's the whole capitalism thing that was referenced earlier).

      If Steve/Apple thought that the price they could charge for iTMS tracks that would maximize profit was $3.75 a track, you can bet that that is what they'd charge. It isn't about deciding at the beginning that you will mark up your product and earn (just a manufactured number) $0.30 per unit, so you'll charge $0.30 beyond the cost of production. You figure out what the market will bear while maximizing your sales - or at least your profits - and charge that.

      For myself, I'm fine with the iTMS model. I don't care if I can buy a CD for $8 and buy the album for $9.99 on iTMS if I only want two songs. I can get the two songs for $1.98 from iTMS or the two songs plus the rest of the album that I don't want for $8.

      That's the other part of the pricing structure and is (yet again) based on what the market will bear. You have noticed in restaurants that you generally pay more for side dishes when you don't get them with your meal or entree, I imagine. A la carte pricing.

      Now, that's not to say that iTMS is 'the ultimate perfect Platonic ideal of only media distribution' or anything. Far from it (in my opinion). But the pricing is 'fair', inasmuch as they've sold more than a couple songs over their years, and people seem willing to buy in great quantities.

      --
      Evolution ceases when stupidity can no longer be fatal.
    4. Re:Really? by joost · · Score: 1

      Excellent replies!

    5. Re:Really? by ZxCv · · Score: 1

      Your points don't really make sense unless it does cost Apple more money todo this than "needing packaging, delivery trucks, shelf space" etc.

      Remember, once again, that the price a company charges for a product or service is much more closely tied to how much people are willing to pay for it, rather than how much it cost to produce/provide.

      So, I assert that my points do make sense. Quite often, "less" of something makes a product more appealing. And making something more appealing means more people are willing to buy it, and/or people are willing to buy it at a higher price. And, like I said, how much people are willing to pay is what matters here--not how much it cost Apple to provide it to them.

      --

      Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
    6. Re:Really? by Phleg · · Score: 1

      So, for example, it makes sense to charge more for lactose-free milk since lactose occurs naturally in milk and has to be removed in a process that costs both time and money. If, on the other hand, lactose was only added in the manufacturing process and did NOT occur naturally in milk, then there'd be no real reason why lactose-free milk should be more expensive (assuming, of course, that the lactose would be added purely for taste or similar reasons, not in order to keep other costs down for the manufacturer).
      Actually it does make sense. It doesn't apply in this situation (e.g., Apple), but the manufacturer's production line would, hypothetically, include the use of machinery to add lactose. Providing another path (lactose-free) would involve new machines to circumvent that process for a portion of their product, or a completely separate production line, or some other non-cheap solution.
      --
      No comment.
  43. That's what Apple *wants* you to believe.... by PapayaSF · · Score: 3, Insightful

    they don't want to be in the music business, at least no more than they have to be.

    Not to be a conspiracy theorist or anything, but I wonder about this. That is Jobs' pitch to the record companies: "We're not your competition, we just want to sell iPods." But is it really true? Jobs thinks long-term. Maybe he's just lying low, trying not to spook his prey until it's too late. With iTunes becoming huge, what young musician wouldn't be tempted to sign up with iTunes as a label? Particularly if, instead of the artists getting a small slice of the record companies' cut of an iTunes sale, they got most or all of it? Wouldn't that increase the artists' income from digital sales by something like 400%?

    The major labels would excrete bricks if this happened, but if iTunes gets much larger, it may be inevitable. At that point Jobs will have the major record companies over a barrel, and could make them obsolete while getting cheers from everyone else by vastly increasing what musicians make for digital sales and giving the fans what they want.

    Imagine the PR coup that would be. I see it as a "One more thing..." item at a future MacWorld Expo keynote.

    --
    Q: What does the "B." in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stand for? A: Benoit B. Mandelbrot
    1. Re:That's what Apple *wants* you to believe.... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is Jobs' pitch to the record companies: "We're not your competition, we just want to sell iPods." But is it really true?

      Well, I think it is true, but at the same time he is trying to mislead the record companies about the future of the music industry, as Apple envisions it. Apple benefits from their cartel being undermined, but at the same time I don't think Apple wants to become the sole gatekeeper for a number of reasons.

      With iTunes becoming huge, what young musician wouldn't be tempted to sign up with iTunes as a label? Particularly if, instead of the artists getting a small slice of the record companies' cut of an iTunes sale, they got most or all of it? Wouldn't that increase the artists' income from digital sales by something like 400%?

      Labels manage multiple items, not just iTunes. They manage advertising and they manage hardcopy to store sales and in many cases live performances. Those needs aren't going away and it is so far outside of Apple's core competence that I doubt they want to try to extend themselves that way.What Apple is motivating is not a switch to Apple as a label, but a switch to an indy label where artists get a much, much larger cut, without losing the iTunes retail channel and without losing their advertising.

      There are other problems with Apple becoming a label, including antitrust issues. The iTMS is tied to the iTunes software and the iPod. The iPod is dangerously close to having monopoly influence in a market. Leveraging that into a monopoly on online music distribution would be really shaky legal ground and Apple is a lot more susceptible to bad press about their antitrust actions than MS is.

      I do think Apple wants to gradually undermine the big labels, but at the same time I think they plan to simply democratize the market and keep either MS or the RIAA from controlling it. Apple isn't afraid to compete on the merits of their hardware and software since those are their strengths. I think they'll count on those strengths and avoid the dangerous position you mention.

  44. Let me get this right... by advocate_one · · Score: 1

    they want me to buy it all over AGAIN??? I've already replaced my LPs with CDs... I'm not gonna spend major bucks to get official MP3s to use instead of my CDs... I'll carry on ripping to format shift and play on the mp3 player in my car...

    I have a huge home made NAS with all my rips archived in flac and ogg and I've backed all that up onto DVD... I only transcode to mp3 when I want to make a mix disc for the car... the player in the car doesn't handle ogg, my ipod does though... only cos I wiped the OS from it and replaced it with Linux.

    Now if they were offering downloads in flac format though... I'd maybe purchase new stuff that way...

    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  45. Permit any credit cards? by freedom_india · · Score: 1

    Will that mean i can use my a billing address in India and buy music?
    Does DRM-free mean iam free to buy music from US iTunes store even if am residing in Australia or worse Iceland?

    Until that happens, all this DRM-free crap is just marketing.

    --
    "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  46. 256K = too big by ThirdPrize · · Score: 1

    I don't want 256K recordings. I would probably pay the extra for a 128K mp3 file over a 256K AAC file. Talk about halving the size of your iPod in one foul swoop.

    --
    I have excellent Karma and I am not afraid to Troll it.
    1. Re:256K = too big by OakLEE · · Score: 1

      Then downsample it to MP3. iTunes has a transcoder built right in. Hell you can do this with their 128kbps DRM'ed AAC files as well. Converting to MP3 of course kills the benefits of AAC, namely (1) better sound quality for the bit rate and (2) longer battery life for your iPod (AAC takes less processing power to decode).

      --
      The sun beams down on a brand new day, No more welfare tax to pay, Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light...
  47. "Rip, Mix, Burn" by argent · · Score: 1

    they want me to buy it all over AGAIN???

    Um, no, what makes you say that? Don't forget Apple's "Rip, Mix, Burn" campaign... why on earth do you think they'd do anything to make the music you've already ripped stop playing. For that matter HOW on earth do you think they'd do that?

    If you don't care for the service, they're happy to sell you more iPods to play ripped music on... whether you're running Linux on them or not.

  48. You're complaining about the wrong company! by argent · · Score: 1

    The deception is that if Apple really cared about the consumers then they would open iTunes/iStore to work with other players.

    They have. DRM-free music from iTunes will play on any player that supports MPEG-4 audio. That's all Apple's "AAC" is, it's an open standard and one that's used by a number of serious musicians like Elena Kuschnerova for their online distribution. Apple didn't invent it, they selected it because it's superior to MP3, and any company making a music player ought to have done the same.

    Recently I went to Frys to try and find a player that supported MPEG-4 audio (under any name, MP4, MPEG-4 Audio, or AAC) and found precisely one non-Apple player that supported it. More importantly, I only found one other player that supported ANYTHING but MP3 and Windows Media.

    So it's not Apple that's keeping you from listening to your iTMS music without converting it. I don't know whether Microsoft's been cutting restrictive licensing deals with the people who make the players, or whether they're just stupid, but it seems to me that it's hard to take a company complaining about not being able to license Apple's format seriously when it's not actually something they have to license from Apple in the first place!

    1. Re:You're complaining about the wrong company! by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      Recently I went to Frys to try and find a player that supported MPEG-4 audio (under any name, MP4, MPEG-4 Audio, or AAC) and found precisely one non-Apple player that supported it. More importantly, I only found one other player that supported ANYTHING but MP3 and Windows Media.

      Probably due to licensing costs for AAC? MP3 licensing costs are a no-brainer, it's the "must have" format. If your player doesn't support MP3, you're dead in the water. Microsoft's format (shrug) I guess it's semi-popular, maybe they got a good price on it from Microsoft.

      But where is the business case for supporting AAC (and paying yet more of your profit margin to someone else)? Now, maybe in another year or two AAC might start to supplant MP3, which might cause more manufacturers to pay for the licensing.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    2. Re:You're complaining about the wrong company! by argent · · Score: 1

      Probably due to licensing costs for AAC?

      AAC is MPEG-4 Audio. It's MPEG's successor to MP3. The license fee is about the same as for MP3 (it's even a penny cheaper for more than 400,000 units a year), and there's no additional distribution royalty for MP4.

      But where is the business case for supporting AAC

      There's two:

      1. You can put more music on the player than MP3 at the same quality, so you can say "1000 songs" instead of "750 songs" on the box. Now, WMA has the same effect, but how much of the market does WMA get you and how much does AAC get you? Well... that brings us to...

      2. Selling your player to people who currently own an iPod. The typical iPod owner only gets a small fraction of his music from iTunes, but almost all of them will have ripped their CDs in AAC rather than MP3: not only is it a better format, but don't forget the power of the default. AAC is the default in iTunes.

      And remember the context here. People are getting upset at Apple because their proprietary DRM gives them a supposed "lock in" on the music player market. But not only is most of that "lock in" self-inflicted, but now Apple is giving up the "lock in" on the rest!

      Look, I don't even *like* the iPod. I had one, I gave it to my daughter, the "click wheel" is just too annoying for me. I'd happily pay Creative or whoever an extra couple of bucks for a player that supports AAC as well. But the only one that did was a Sony... and an old and overpriced one at that.

      So when someone writes (as the original poster I responded to did) that Apple is still "locking people in" with their format, it boggles my mind. The RIAA and Microsoft and Creative and the rest really have the market hornswoggled with this imaginary "lock in" the iPod has.

    3. Re:You're complaining about the wrong company! by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      Interesting... I don't use iTunes or an iPod, so I wasn't aware that it was ripping to AAC for the most part.

      It will be interesting to see how non-DRM sales from iTunes play out. iTunes is popular enough that it might be able to push AAC more into the mainstream and finally push MP3 out. Or at least gain enough mindshare that device manufacturers start to include AAC.

      But if you only have $X to spend on licensing (enough for 2 licenses), which 2 of the 3 formats would you license right now? Most manufacturers seem to be going WMA+MP3 right now. Maybe that'll change over to MP3+AAC (since Microsoft screwed everyone over with the Zune, and with Apple dropping DRM on some AAC files).

      Personally, I'm still not convinced that AAC will supplant MP3 anytime soon. Dropping the license costs would hurry the process, but otherwise it will take years for all of the existing MP3 devices to be replaced with devices that do both. (For instance, all of the MP3 CD players being placed into new factory car stereos.)

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    4. Re:You're complaining about the wrong company! by argent · · Score: 1

      But if you only have $X to spend on licensing (enough for 2 licenses), which 2 of the 3 formats would you license right now?

      Even if this followed logically (which I'm not sure it does) you're not changing the situation any... it's still not Apple's decision not to license Fairplay that's keeping people "locked in" to the iPod by their music collection.

      But it's still strange that apart from *one* Sony player (an old one), not one manufacturer has decided to go after current iPod owners. I mean, your choice is a format that the biggest company in the business is using, one you've *said* is being unfair by using that format, and one who even with the license fees you'd STILL be able to undercut by 30% without breaking a sweat... or a format that *their* competition was using but who has just decided to abandon it and leave you in the lurch.

  49. Real thanks should probably go to the EU by trifish · · Score: 1

    Thanks should probably go to the EU, where Apple was about to face anti-trust proceedings related to the DRM+iTunes+iPod combo.

  50. grammar nazi here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "You can't X a single Y" is an idiomatic expression (at least in American English) meaning you can't do it all, in any way. So you're wrong, or at least the wording is ambiguous. But yes, from the context he should've realized what was meant.

  51. Or for illogic I guess by snowwrestler · · Score: 1

    Generally I would expect that not needing packaging, delivery trucks, shelf space, etc, would result in the end product being cheaper due to the lack of need to pay for all that stuff... but no, somehow delivering less is a "feature" that makes sense to pay extra money for.

    See, here's your problem right here. You're under the mistaken idea that price and cost are more than vaguelly related. You might want to try framing price in terms of perceived value instead. To some people being able to buy one song at a time from their couch has higher perceived value than buying a CD at Target. Thus a higher price is supported.

    This framing has the added benefit of allowing for different perceptions and opinions without value judgments. So you might have a different perception of value, and that's fine. You can go to Target and pay less for the CD, and everyone's happy. Yay for the free market.
    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  52. Upgrade cost though? by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Yes, you can buy albums for $9.99 - but the question would be, what is the UPGRADE price for a whole album? After all, you already paid the $9.99, so in theory there should be no upgrade charge... in reality there will be some small charge I think.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Upgrade cost though? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      All DRM-free albums are the same price as the DRM ones: $9.99. The $0.30 difference is only for a single.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  53. eMusic more expensive by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    eMusic for me is actually much more expensive than iTunes. Some months I just forget to buy anything. Some months I only buy a few things, because I only find a handful of things I like. The iTunes model of not having to remember to buy a certain number of tracks every month, even when you can't find anything you like quite enough to buy, is less expensive. I have been a subscriber to eMusic more because I wanted to support DRM free music than because the pricing model really made sense for the way I buy music - as soon as Apple goes DRM free I'll probably drop out of eMusic since I've always been more interested in purchasing things as I need them rather than an endless monthly drain on my financial resources.

    Also with the world opening up more and more to DRM free stuff, we should be able to buy more music from bands directly, like the Barenaked Ladies (who sell recordings of almost all concerts they do, many in FLAC or MP3). That's really the best idea because then I know the maximum amount of money goes to the artists.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  54. FLAC please by |/|/||| · · Score: 1
    I'll pass on the lossy encoding. If I could buy CD quality losslessly encoded and DRM-free audio on the web, then I would. I'd probably pay $0.5/song or something.
    MP3's are just a mobile form of my music, they're not going to form the basis of my library.

    Hell, better yet, I'd pay even more for lossless DRM-free audio that's sampled at a higher resolution than CD. Maybe a buck a song or something.
    The market is there, I'm thinking, but nobody is selling the equivalent of CD audio, much less something better. CDs even come with a physical backup!

    --
    [javac] 100 errors
    1. Re:FLAC please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lossless quality for half the price of what iTunes is selling its low-quality songs for? Yeah, right. iTunes is already just barely profitable for Apple. Let's see if we can get a pony with that, too.

    2. Re:FLAC please by |/|/||| · · Score: 1
      Songs on iTunes are more than 50 cents a pop? Geez.

      I figure the average CD has between 10 and 15 songs on it, and they sell for between 10 and 15 bucks. That's a buck a song for lossless non-DRM music on physical media that has to be stamped and shipped and (traditionally) sold in a physical store.

      Should digital distribution cut the cost in half? I would say yes, especially for music that has already been released in 10 different formats.

      Let's see if we can get a pony with that, too.
      I'm not stating my dream case fantasy, I'm explaining what would make me switch from CDs to downloads. If it's not realistic, then that's too bad for the music purveyor, not for me.

      --
      [javac] 100 errors
  55. Current DRM Music? by loic_2003 · · Score: 1

    Will there be a way of 'upgrading' current crippled music to DRM-free, or will we have to pay and download the whole thing again if we want to be crazy and transfer it to several of our own computers?

  56. Weird by matt+me · · Score: 1

    Of course, at 1.30 per song, iTunes' DRM-free AAC cost about 6 times as much as eMusic DRM-free MP3, I've never bought music online. I find it most bizarre that services charge different amounts depending on format, discriminating by codec and bitrate. If they sell windows media audio .wma, or apple's codec .aac for less than more compatible formats (mp3, ogg) then this is discriminating against users of other platforms. As all the competitors are selling exactly the product, I wonder how they can possibly compete and why their prices don't tend to the royalty owed to the musicians plus a penny profit.
  57. Good thought. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    I think the answer might lie not in more fields, but in repeatable fields. I'm drawing on my experience as a library cataloger here. The record format that we use most commonly in my field is called MARC (for MAchine Readable Cataloging... or "Cataloguing" if you are in an English-speaking country other than the US), and, instead of having a field for every possible role a person or corporate body (not as in a corporation in the business sense of the word, but in the literal sense, so "The Beatles", "The Berlin Philharmonic" or "Blue Note Records" would all be considered corporate bodies), there are fields for names which can be repeated for every name you want to add to a record and a subfield can be applied to each entry, identifying the role the person or corporate body plays in the production of the work.

    Very interesting. Although in retrospect your explanation makes sense, I didn't quite understand what you meant about MARC until I did a little reading. Anyone else who is interested might want to have a look at this LoC publication. I agree that the way they do things is pretty nice (although, being an old format, they're really niggardly about bits in the headers). I think if you were good about establishing conventions, it would even be possible to hammer such a system into a schema that only provided for arbitrary Key=Value pairs (no explicit 'subfields').

    Artist0 = "Beethoven, Ludwig van"
    Artist0-type = Composer
    Artist1 = "Klemperer, Otto"
    Artist1-type = Conductor ... etc.

    The real problem, given that AAC files do have the capability of arbitrary Key=Value pairs, is really the interface; what iTunes really needs is a metadata browser that's more like Aperture's (which is excellent); allowing you to define 'views' for commonly used metadata but also view and edit the pairs associated with a file directly if you wish.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  58. So you are not a fool, but an idiot by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    So let's say I already own an album I bought on iTunes, the DRM version. The question at hand for the last several messages is, how much will it cost me to upgrade the album I already bought, and get the DRM free higher bitrate version?

    For a single song, that cost to me to upgrade the song, will be $0.30. That's because the DRM-free version costs $0.30 more. So now take the album, which I have already bought for $9.99 - how much will Apple charge to upgrade those songs to be DRM free and of higher quality? Will it be $0, since a DRM free album on iTunes costs $9.99 as well, which is what I already paid (since I own the album). Or will it be $0.30 a song to upgrade just the songs I like, even though I already paid for the whole album on iTunes before?

    I already own the album that I bought on iTunes. How much will it cost me to upgrade to the DRM free version, nbot purchase again, but upgrade to the DRM free version?

    That's the question, ofr which you have no answer. I'll let you re-post your same answer again, waste as much of your own time as you like.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:So you are not a fool, but an idiot by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      People are more likely to help you when you don't call them names. I guess in your world view, no one can misinterpret or misunderstand one another. In either case, it would suggest to me that all evidence points to the assumption will cost you $0.30 a song regardless if you bought the whole album initially. Apple does not clarify a pricing difference in upgrading whole albums and only lists the per song upgrade as the only option.

      iTunes will also offer customers a simple, one-click option to easily upgrade their entire library of all previously purchased EMI content to the higher quality DRM-free format for 30 cents a song.

      Well that's the way I read it. But what do I know? I only researched your question for you while you called me names and derided my intelligence.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  59. No you didn't, you just repeated yourself by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Twice you came back with the simple answer of what an album COST, not the upgrade COST or any acknowledgment you even understood we were talking about upgrades.

    If you had showed any intelligence in terms of reading comprehension across multiple messages, I would not have belittled it. If you had in fact shown any ability to help rather than repeat yourself like, well, an idiot - I would not have belittled you. As it was you were of no use and couldn't seem to read the simplest of messages.

    I have also researched the question and come back with no answer. But I know how to compose a response in such a way that it indicates I understand the question being asked, even if I don't know more details. If you don't want people to call you an idiot improve your responses to queries.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  60. DRM-Free video by mick129 · · Score: 1

    Offering DRM-free audio to other labels isn't that surprising. What gets me is the DRM-free music videos. Jobs has taken care not to imply that video (movies) should be DRM-free. I'd like to see other types of video show up, short movies, clips, etc.

    --
    Move along, no sig to see here.
  61. Fair enough by mbessey · · Score: 1

    There is some amount of HDTV content available from unencrypted broadcasts, but that's not directly relevant to my original point, I think.

    While you can record over-the-air HDTV signals legally and fairly easily (at least for now), you can't buy that content in a store without having copy protection applied to it.

  62. Re:Wake me up... by yotto · · Score: 1

    The record labels love you for wasting money needlessly on their behalf.

    I never said I bought cds from them. :)

  63. It's way simpler than that by LKM · · Score: 1

    Good points, but I think it's way simpler than that. Music is something you use again and again. Most people listen to the music they listened to when they were 20 for their whole life. You're going through a lot of different hardware during that time, and you want to take your music with you. In my case, I went from vinyl to cassettes to CD to MP3 to AAC. I re-bought some stuff, but generally, I would have preferred to just keep the music I already own, and move it to new formats.

    Movies are different. You watch them once, then you don't watch them for 5 or 10 years. Or ever again. Hence, re-buying them isn't that much of an issue. Hence, DRM is somewhat acceptable.

    1. Re:It's way simpler than that by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I think you have a very good point. The quality from an LP or tape is perfectly adequate for most people's music, and people are willing to take the loss in the format shift. This is particularly true for people who do not listen to their music on high-end equipment.

      On the other hand even if you had a movie that you really did like a lot, it probably isn't worth the time or effort to format-shift it yourself since the newer format takes advantage of the better display technology available today. In general, LaserDisc was nicer than tape, and DVD is better than LaserDisc, and now the newest formats are the only way to get a hi-def picture for the newer televisions. If you had bought a Beta version of Star Wars, it is perfectly conceivable that you might have felt the need to also purchase the LaserDisc and DVD versions as well, just to get the improved quality.

      The interesting thing is that now people are starting to want degraded versions for their portable use. This makes video a little bit more like audio, and it will be interesting to see if people are willing to accept DRM restrictions on these types of devices.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.