Slashdot Mirror


Perfect Silicon Sphere to Redefine the Kilogram

MrCreosote writes "The Age reports optical specialists at CSIRO are helping create a new standard for the kilogram, based on a precise number of atoms in a perfect sphere of silicon. This will replace the International Prototype, a lump of metal alloy in a vault in Paris."

453 comments

  1. alternate theories by arun_s · · Score: 5, Informative

    I found some alternate theories that are also attempting to precisely measure the kilogram at everything2. They look pretty interesting, here's a small excerpt:

    Superconducting levitation

    This method works along essentially the same principles as the Watt Balance. In it, a superconductor of a known mass is placed within a superconducting coil. By running current through the coil, a magnetic field is generated that causes the superconducting mass to levitate. By levitating it at different positions and measuring the current required to do so, the magnetic flux can be calculated. Magnetic flux relates directly to Planck's constant, and because the force generated by the magnetically-induced levitation and the downward force of gravity must be equal, Planck's constant can thus be precisely related to the kilogram.

    Hey wait, TFA skims over what they're going to do with the Silicon ball once its made. Again, from everything1:

    X-ray interferometry is used to determine the distance between lattice planes in the silicon crystal, permitting physicists to determine, as closely as possible, the number of atoms in these spheres. Currently, a measurement accuracy of one part in 10^7 is possible, after considering all of the various sorts of error introduced in the process, but it is hoped that ten times this accuracy will be possible within five years.
    --
    I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
    1. Re:alternate theories by JanneM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This method works along essentially the same principles as the Watt Balance. In it, a superconductor of a known mass is placed within a superconducting coil.

      If you have a lump of anything of a known mass, why bother with the rest?

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    2. Re:alternate theories by jmv · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I personally wouldn't put too much trust into a measurement that depends on gravitational acceleration for several reasons.
      1) It means you can't move the setup somewhere else easily because gravity is location-dependent
      2) Events like the 2004 tsunami has a slight (but measurable) effect on the Earth's rotation and hence on the acceleration (because of centrifugal force) ... and most importantly
      3) Your measurement will (*literally*) depend on the phase of the moon (just like tides)

    3. Re:alternate theories by porpnorber · · Score: 1

      But wait! You say "the force generated by the magnetically-induced levitation and the downward force of gravity must be equal, Planck's constant can thus be precisely related to the kilogram," but that won't work. Force is measured in Newtons; you've just measured weight, not mass. In fact, this 'method' would give you different values depending on when and where you used it!

      Or am I deeply confused?

    4. Re:alternate theories by jimstapleton · · Score: 2, Insightful

      maybe because you are using the lump of known mass to measure something else.

      Duck Measurer: "I put a duck on one side of the scale, and use weights (lumps of known mass) on the other side to determine the mass of the duck."
      Some Guy: "Umm, but you already know the mass of the weights, why are you bothering?"

      --
      34486853790
      Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
    5. Re:alternate theories by Delirium+Tremens · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are confusing mass and weight.
      Mass = how much matter there is in an object.
      Weight = how much pull does a particular gravity (like Earth's g) has on that quantity of matter.

      That's why you could be floating (weightless) in a space ship without having lost any of your fingers or other parts of your body (mass) ;-)

    6. Re:alternate theories by Oersoep · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yeah, but to know the known mass you'll need the silicon sfere cause that's the most precise known mass.

    7. Re:alternate theories by _Eric · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're mixing up mass (an amount of matter) and weight (the gravitational force felt by matter). The kilogram can be used anywhere. Only using a device based on absolute measurement of weight (spring based scale) will render the device dependent on the the local gravity field. Yet, true enough, this is how most of modern electronic scales work (they could still weight a known internal mass for calibration to work that around, but I don't know if or how this is actually done).

    8. Re:alternate theories by _Eric · · Score: 2, Funny

      OK parent was perfectly right, I should have shut up.

    9. Re:alternate theories by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      What you said is confusing, because I'm not sure whether you're confused with the difference between mass and weight or not.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    10. Re:alternate theories by hanshotfirst · · Score: 5, Funny

      Duck Measurer: "I put a duck on one side of the scale, and use weights (lumps of known mass) on the other side to determine the mass of the duck."
      Some Guy: "Umm, but you already know the mass of the weights, why are you bothering?"
      To see if they float, of course.
      --
      Why, oh why, didn't I take the Blue Pill?
    11. Re:alternate theories by dmayle · · Score: 1

      But I thought that 1 Kilogram was a mass measurement defined relative to good old Aych Too Ohh.

      As in, 1000 cubic centimeters at 1 atmosphere (how's that for mixing metric and imperial ;-) ) has a mass of one kilogram...

      I can see the problems with that, as we're relying on a certain pressure, but I thought that was the base...

    12. Re:alternate theories by vigmeister · · Score: 2, Informative

      The principle you outlined is related to the Avogadro's number hence the name of the project. Using the same principle and different volumes, you could use water, but it depends also on accurate measurement of temperature. It is anyway contrived and reverse engineered from the definition of units of pressure (atm uses water; torr uses Hg and so forth)

      Even if you could use the water standard, pure water is impossible to find. Purer silicon than water can be obtained which makes this project sensible. Not that they would use this technique to define the kilogram though :)

      I can't think of any applications for the damn thing though... Except QC and Calibration maybe?

      Cheers!
      --
      Vig

      --
      Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
    13. Re:alternate theories by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Currently, a measurement accuracy of one part in 10^7 is possible
      Only 10^-7? For comparison, "cesium clocks measure frequency with an accuracy of from 2 to 3 parts in 10 to the 14th," and length is also measurable to within 10^-14. Even for waterborn pollution, "chemists today routinely detect parts per trillion ." I don't have any solid reason to think mass should be measurable to the same precision, but 10^-7 is only one part in 10 million, it just doesn't seem that great.
    14. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      He's not. But everything's method is trying to define the kilogram (a unit of mass) by weighing it, and that's the problem.

    15. Re:alternate theories by Evil+Cretin · · Score: 1

      A kilogram is a unit of mass, not weight, so by definition, we wouldn't be using a gravitational acceleration method anyway if we want proper results.

      Anyway, the strength of the gravitational field on Earth depends heavily on where in the world you are - the Earth isn't a perfect sphere, and so g varies between (IIRC) about 9.78 and 9.81 m/s depending on where you are.

      --
      "A deadlock has been reached. One task must die. We must now choose between murder and suicide."
    16. Re:alternate theories by toQDuj · · Score: 1

      No, you have a point. The gravitational pull might be different depending on location, but the required acceleration force for moving the sphere should be independent of graviational pull.

      B.

      --
      Every experiment which ends in a big bang is a good experiment.
    17. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not?

      zero a scale
      take a known mass, say 1g
      measure its weight on the scale.

      you know know what percent of earth normal gravity you are at, and the conversion from wight to mass trivially.

      alternatively, if a 1% margin of error is ok (I think that's all the variance we see on earth, right?), then you don't even need to bother.

    18. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous+Cowled · · Score: 3, Funny

      Villager > If... she... weighs... the same as a duck,... she's made of wood.
      Bedevere > And therefore?
      Villager > A witch!

    19. Re:alternate theories by Otter · · Score: 1

      Yes, but acceleration is defined in terms of mass, so that doesn't get you anywhere in defining a standard for mass. Unless you have a different standard for acceleration, which is what the OP's link was trying to do with gravity.

    20. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (-1, Obvious)

    21. Re:alternate theories by ddimas · · Score: 1
      I can't think of any applications for the damn thing though... Except QC and Calibration maybe?

      A standard mass is required in order to perform any valid work in Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Engineering, Trade (I want a pound of balony), etc.

      Standardized weights and measures are a basic requirement for a civilized society.

    22. Re:alternate theories by Software · · Score: 2, Insightful
      At the risk of being pedantic, people in spaceships orbiting earth are not weightless; the Earth's gravity has an effect on them (namely, keeping them in orbit). Their sensation of weight will be zero, because they are essentially in free fall, but they still have weight.

      To be fair, though, you didn't specify that the person was in orbit. Maybe you were thinking of in interstellar space, where a person would be weightless.

    23. Re:alternate theories by Locklin · · Score: 2, Informative

      If your referring to the parent which talks about the balance - it is in fact referring correctly to mass. A balance measures mass, a spring scale or other force measuring device measures weight.

      If you meant a different parent, then disregard.

      --
      "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
    24. Re:alternate theories by CWRUisTakingMyMoney · · Score: 0

      (Disclaimer: IAOASSSTIABBMS [I am only a social scientist, so this is a bit beyond me at times)

      What this post's GP is getting at, I think, is that they're using a lump of known mass to define the very unit of mass. Using your duck analogy, I think the more on-point description would be: a measurer is attempting to define the duck as a unit of mass (note that this doesn't require measuring the mass of the duck; whatever result is obtained, the duck will have a mass of 1 Duck). Using weights of a known mass to do this, then, is absurd, because whatever mass the weights have would have to be measured in terms of Ducks, but the measurer hasn't yet defined the Duck. So a sort of circular dependency is created.

      Feel free to correct me if my reasoning is wrong (it may well be).

      --
      Those who anthropomorphize science and/or nature already believe in an intelligent designer.
    25. Re:alternate theories by vigmeister · · Score: 1

      We do not need a Silicon sphere to measure a kg. These spheres will be exorbitantly priced and while offering a very high precision, are not required for the applications you outline.

      Useful would be accepting that a kilogram is "X molecules of Y" and letting standards organizations and manufacturers of calibrated instruments create masses to adhere to the definition within varying tolerances.

      The defn. of a meter for example is the distance traveled by light in a few billionths of a second or something.

      I am questioning the necessity of the sphere, not the necessity of defining masses in terms of physical constants.

      Cheers!

      --
      Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
    26. Re:alternate theories by Mercano · · Score: 1

      I think the GP's point is that if you are trying to define your base mass unit, then there's no such thing as known mass.

      --
      #include <signature.h>
    27. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Weight. Mass. Idiot.

    28. Re:alternate theories by jimstapleton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      they are using flux to measure mass.

      Actually, the discussion involves using EM Flux as a way to calibrate mass measurements.

      Or, using the duck analogy further - then finding (or making) a duck that precisely matches the needed measurements...

      Regardless, the goal here is to get a reliable way to reproduce accurate mass meausre, without having a chunk of known mass available at or available to the reproduction site.

      --
      34486853790
      Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
    29. Re:alternate theories by dapsychous · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      How exactly does one become a duck measurer?
      Are there certifications involved?
      If I told you your duck was too small, would you call me a quack?

    30. Re:alternate theories by thegnu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe you were thinking of in interstellar space, where a person would be weightless.

      Not to be pedantic here, either, but maybe you'll just be in an imperceptibly slow freefall in an imperceptibly large orbit.
      --
      Please stop stalking me, bro.
    31. Re:alternate theories by nospam007 · · Score: 0

      You thought wrong.
      The kilogram is the last remaining base unit of the SI that is still defined by a material artefact.
      http://www.bipm.fr/en/scientific/mass/prototype.ht ml

    32. Re:alternate theories by suggsjc · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      I want a pound of balony
      Sorry sir, this is France. We only use kilograms here (you know that chunk of metal in a vault thingie). Nevermind, I surrender.
      --
      When I have a kid, I want to put him in one of those strollers for twins and then run around the mall looking frantic.
    33. Re:alternate theories by El+Cabri · · Score: 1

      That's a big problem for people using the american weight and measure system, which does not have the notion of mass/weight difference. In the SI, mass is measured in kilograms, while "weight" is a force like any other and measured in Newtons (kg*m/s^2)

    34. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not skip SI altogether, and go with scaled Planck units? Not only would it be based on properties of the universe rather than physical objects, you could do nifty tricks like figuring out the diameter of a black hole of known mass by calculating everything in your head, because of the way most of the pesky constants cancel out.

    35. Re:alternate theories by jmv · · Score: 1

      If these guys are making an object levitate they are weighting it (not measuring the mass), which is exactly what I was pointing out.

    36. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Disclaimer: IAOASSSTIABBMS [I am only a social scientist, so this is a bit beyond me at times)
      SLAUIDNPTBAWI-SWUDTO [Such long and unconventional initializations do not provide the benefits associated with initializations - so what utility do they offer] ?
    37. Re:alternate theories by Bob-taro · · Score: 1

      If you have a lump of anything of a known mass, why bother with the rest?
      This is what I got from the article: the mass of a kilogram is not based on anything fundamental (like a number of atoms), it is based on the mass of a prototype. So no mass measurement can be more accurate than the most accurate measure of that prototype. The whole purpose of this project is to create a new prototype whose mass is known to an even higher degree of accuracy. They are doing this by counting atoms. Not literally, but they know the atomic structure and spacing of quartz crystal (apparently to a very high degree of accuracy) and the know the geometric volume of this sphere - that's why making the sphere so perfectly round is important. I assume a sphere is just the easiest shape to make with that kind of precision. If the sphere is 20cm in diameter and accurate to 35nm, then by my calculations it is accurate to about 1 in 2million. I expected more, but I guess they're still working on it.
      --
      Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
    38. Re:alternate theories by jmv · · Score: 1

      Read. Original comment. Again. Idiot. (oh and read the replies in case you missed it the first time)

    39. Re:alternate theories by shaitand · · Score: 2

      Begone foul grammar troll.

    40. Re:alternate theories by catmistake · · Score: 1

      yeah... um... what happened to using the weight of a milliliter (cubic centimeter) of pure water at sea level?

    41. Re:alternate theories by Gilmoure · · Score: 0, Troll

      In Soviet Russia, Beowulf duck weighs Guinness bar towel!

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    42. Re:alternate theories by Archades54 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but to know the known mass you'll need the silicon sfere cause that's the most precise known mass. I phind this to be a phunny way to spell.
      --
      If your neighbours roof is flying past your window, you know it's cyclone season.
    43. Re:alternate theories by Speare · · Score: 1

      I'm nowhere near competent enough to be sure, but it looked like they were measuring differentially (comparing two or more tests done within a short period of time on the same apparatus), and so would only be sensitive to shifts in gravity that are amazingly short-time domain. I think that any method to determine constants like Plank's constant will, by definition, have some aspect of astronomical and quantum awareness. They're not independent, but with proper methodology, they can be accounted and isolated.

      --
      [ .sig file not found ]
    44. Re:alternate theories by mobby_6kl · · Score: 2, Informative
      At the risk of sounding ignorant due to the lack of a PhD in physics, I thought people in spaceships (in orbit at least) are weightless. The gravity is still present so it's not zero gravity, but since there's no force acting on them other than gravitational acceleration, they are indeed in free fall and are thus weightless.

      Walter Lewin seems to agree with this:

      "If I jump from a tower which is 100 (?) meters high, I will be weightless for about 4 seconds, ignoring the air drag."
      From this video lecture, wich deals with this issue.
    45. Re:alternate theories by bobcat7677 · · Score: 1

      And what do we do with witches???

    46. Re:alternate theories by Robber+Baron · · Score: 1

      Burn them!

      --

      You're using her as bait, Master!

    47. Re:alternate theories by DanFM · · Score: 1

      If she weighs the same as a duck then...shes...made of wood. And therefore.... a witch!

    48. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Weight is relative to other objects. Mass is not.

      On the moon your mass will be the same, but your weight will be 1/6th (relative to the moon, of course)

      In a spacecraft orbiting the earth, your mass will be the same, but your weight will be near zero (relative to the spacecraft, of course)

    49. Re:alternate theories by theJML · · Score: 1

      But what about very small rocks? They float too...

      --
      -=JML=-
    50. Re:alternate theories by the_lesser_gatsby · · Score: 1

      Surely being in free fall is the very definition of weightless? You certainly can't be weighed in such a state.

    51. Re:alternate theories by Adambomb · · Score: 1

      and what do we burn apart from witches?

      --
      Ice Cream has no bones.
    52. Re:alternate theories by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1
      Strictly speaking, a balance also compares weights. However due to the fact that fluctuations of the gravitational field are usually negligible over the extension of a balance, the weight is to very good approximation proportional to the mass (it would be exactly proportional if both objects would be at the very same place, but that's obviously not possible). Therefore the comparison of weight results, to a very good approximation, in a comparison of mass (because the local gravitational acceleration cancels out). To see that it is really a comparison of weights, think of the following two experiments:
      1. Think of a balance in gravity-free space. It won't work (unless you accelerate it, but acceleration and gravitation are equivalent).
      2. Think of a very big balance, so that one side is above earth, and the other side is above moon. Then the same mass on both sides won't balance out.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    53. Re:alternate theories by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1

      That's a big problem for people using the american weight and measure system, which does not have the notion of mass/weight difference.

      El Cabri, meet the slug

    54. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If you have a lump of anything of a known mass, why bother with the rest?"

      Is this the same mass that everyone calls WEIGHT? How many people say something weighs X kilograms? Amazing, a fundamental unit that is both mass and force.

    55. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is somewhat dubious. It is a fundamental principle of general relativity (the equivalence principle) that says you cannod distinguish by doing local measurements whether you are in free-fall, or in orbit, or any other situation where there is no net force acting upon you. It is correct to say that Earth's gravity still acts on you when you are in orbit (and indeed, at low orbit the force acting on you won't be very different from the usual force at the Earth's surface), but this is balanced by the centripetal force, and Einstein's principle says that forces arising from gravity and forces arising from motion are essentially indistinguishable.

    56. Re:alternate theories by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      This is what I got from the article: the mass of a kilogram is not based on anything fundamental (like a number of atoms), it is based on the mass of a prototype.

      What's more important: There's evidence that despite all care, the mass of that prototype might be changing (see the first paragraph after the image). Which, of course, is the worst thing which can happen to a prototype you base your measurements on. (The page linked is BTW another experiment intended to provide a new kg definition).
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    57. Re:alternate theories by crumley · · Score: 1

      Or the more common in engineering circles, pound-mass.

      --
      Preventive War is like committing suicide for fear of death. - Otto Von Bismarck
    58. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Especially when "IAOASSSTIABBMS" doesn't actually stand for "I am only a social scientist, so this is a bit beyond me at times", perhaps the social scientist meant either "IAOASSSTIABBMAT" or "I am only a social scientist, so this is a bit beyond me sometimes".

      Sociology: The study of people who don't need studying by the people who do.

    59. Re:alternate theories by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > The principle you outlined is related to the Avogadro's number hence the name of the project.

      How can you expect to have any degree of accuracy if you don't even have an exact value for one of the fundamental constants?! At best we have a estimate which isn't even that accurate, unlike other people who are actually proposing how to calculate it.

      --
      Until you've been dead, you don't realize how completely clueless Science and Religion are about Life, Consciousness, Time, and God.

    60. Re:alternate theories by commander_gallium · · Score: 1

      yeah... um... what happened to using the weight of a milliliter (cubic centimeter) of pure water at sea level?

      1) I think you mean liter of water instead of milliliter. The later has a mass of 1 g.
      2) I suspect that the definition of liter is based on the volume of 1 kg of pure water at standard temperature and pressure, and not the other way around.

    61. Re:alternate theories by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 1

      2) I suspect that the definition of liter is based on the volume of 1 kg of pure water at standard temperature and pressure, and not the other way around.

      No. liter is a volume, which is based on length, which is based on the speed of light in vacuum. Going the other way (from volumne->weight) is essentially what they are attempting with silicon. Apparantly, silicon is easier than e.g. water due to a simple molecular structure, though I am no expect in that field.

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    62. Re:alternate theories by ResidntGeek · · Score: 1

      Far as I know the definition of a liter is based on the meter, which is defined by how far light travels in 1/c seconds.

      --
      ResidntGeek
    63. Re:alternate theories by ResidntGeek · · Score: 1

      H is actually spelled "aitch". Just a heads-up.

      --
      ResidntGeek
    64. Re:alternate theories by mikiN · · Score: 1

      So, if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck and weighs as much as a duck, then it must be a duck?

      --
      The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
    65. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bridges!

    66. Re:alternate theories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More witches!

    67. Re:alternate theories by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      TFA says the sphere is the most difficult shape to damage, so that's why it is chosen.

    68. Re:alternate theories by itlurksbeneath · · Score: 1

      This is what I got from the article: the mass of a kilogram is not based on anything fundamental (like a number of atoms), it is based on the mass of a prototype. I thought the whole system revolved around water? 1 cubic centimeter of water is 1 gram, so a cubic decimeter of water is 1 kilogram. Now all we have to have is that extremely accurate measurement of length and the rest falls into place. ;)
      --
      Have you ever considered piracy? You'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts.
    69. Re:alternate theories by dadragon · · Score: 1

      Funny. At my engineering school we used the pound and pound force for measuring mass and weight.

      --
      God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
    70. Re:alternate theories by node+3 · · Score: 1

      That's similar to how they weigh pigs in Texas.

      They balance uniform plank across a fulcrum and carefully place the pig on one end. Next they place various rocks on the other end at an equal distance from the fulcrum as the pig is, until they find one that balances the pig. Then they guess the weight of the rock.

    71. Re:alternate theories by arootbeer · · Score: 1

      No.

      REGARDLESS of whether it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, or quacks like a duck, if it weighs as much as a duck, then it weighs as much as a duck.

    72. Re:alternate theories by mightybaldking · · Score: 1

      Acceleration is d2s/dt2. (Second derivative of distance with respect to time) Where does mass come into play?

    73. Re:alternate theories by mrvan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Probably shouldn't be feeding the trolls here, but GP is probably Dutch from his nick, and in Dutch the same word is spelled with 'sf'.

      If being unAmerican is the same as being mentally retarded it seems we're right back in the days of the terrorism^H^H^H communism scare

    74. Re:alternate theories by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      You'll just be orbiting the milky way's center of gravity.

    75. Re:alternate theories by Plutonite · · Score: 1

      Most methods to measure mass will involve measuring the effect of imparting motion on that mass, and gravitational fields do this in an energy efficient way. Step no.2 is to see how much force, ona calibrated scale, in the opposite direction is required to cancel that effect out. Traditionally: elastic springs..etc. Today: magnetic flux.

      Something involving rotational acceleration could perhaps be used in space for small objects.

      Also, perfectly round silicon is hard to argue against. Have you no hormones at all? :)

    76. Re:alternate theories by Joebert · · Score: 0, Troll

      Put dem on da cona 2 git mi mudafukin muny !

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    77. Re:alternate theories by Linker3000 · · Score: 3, Funny

      In order to comply with National Legislation, witch burning must be made carbon neutral by the planting of an equivalent number of new trees in the enchanted forest.

      --
      AT&ROFLMAO
    78. Re:alternate theories by LionMage · · Score: 1

      I thought the whole system revolved around water? 1 cubic centimeter of water is 1 gram, so a cubic decimeter of water is 1 kilogram.
      That was the original definition of the gram (1 mL, or 1 cc, of water at 4 degrees C at sea level has a mass of 1 gram), but this definition was later discarded in favor of the platinum-iridium reference mass defined to be 1 kg. I believe the impetus for this change was the imprecision of reproducing the original reference standard, the imprecision of knowing the point of maximum density of liquid water because the density depends partially upon pressure (not just temperature). Pressure itself is partially a function of mass, so there's a circular dependency.

      Now all we have to have is that extremely accurate measurement of length and the rest falls into place.
      We already have that measurement, based from 1960 until 1983 upon a particular wavelength of the emission spectrum of Krypton, and after 1983 in terms of the speed of light. Originally, the meter was defined in terms of the distance from the equator to either of the Earth's geographic poles (10,000 km), and later in terms of a platinum-iridium reference bar. So our new standard of length is obviously a lot easier to reproduce in the lab since it doesn't rely on an entire planet...

      But for the aforementioned reasons, you wouldn't want to use water as your basis for defining mass accurately. Counting discrete things like atoms seems to be a smarter way to go, overall.
    79. Re:alternate theories by Otter · · Score: 1

      Sorry -- force, not acceleration.

    80. Re:alternate theories by thegnu · · Score: 1

      You'll just be orbiting the milky way's center of gravity.
      I was thinking of my wiener, but that's both here and there. XD. Sorry. I was reading bash.org.

      --
      Please stop stalking me, bro.
    81. Re:alternate theories by LionMage · · Score: 1

      I think you mean liter of water instead of milliliter. The later has a mass of 1 g.
      No, he meant milliliter. According to the Wikipedia article:

      The kilogram was originally defined as one thousand times "the absolute weight of a volume of pure water equal to the cube of the hundredth part of a meter, and at the temperature of melting ice" [...] Also, from the grammar nazi sitting on my shoulder, it's "latter" and not "later." (Dictionary.com's first result when looking up "latter" is actually the entry for "late," and seems to imply that "later" and "latter" are synonymous -- however, in the sense that you meant, this is not the case. The correct sense in this case is "being the second mentioned of two (distinguished from former).")

      I suspect that the definition of liter is based on the volume of 1 kg of pure water at standard temperature and pressure, and not the other way around
      The liter is a unit of volume, and thus based purely upon length. Furthermore, "standard temperature" and "standard pressure" need to be defined -- and pressure itself is a function of mass and temperature. According to the Wikipedia article, the liter was originally defined as 1 cubic decimeter. In 1901, the unit was redefined as the volume of 1 kg of pure water at approximately 4 degrees C at 1 atmosphere. In 1964, the original definition was reverted to, and therefore the unit was once again defined solely in terms of length.
    82. Re:alternate theories by Joebert · · Score: 1

      Put dem on da cona 2 git mi mudafukin muny !

      Come on, it doesn't get much funnier than an illiterate pimp mis-hearing the word witches.
      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    83. Re:alternate theories by Plutonite · · Score: 1

      Moderators on crack. How the hell is this insightful when even a cursory read of the summary will get you to recognize the concept of using an accurately known mass for calibration?

    84. Re:alternate theories by ddimas · · Score: 1
      We do not need a Silicon sphere to measure a kg. These spheres will be exorbitantly priced and while offering a very high precision, are not required for the applications you outline.

      Useful would be accepting that a kilogram is "X molecules of Y" and letting standards organizations and manufacturers of calibrated instruments create masses to adhere to the definition within varying tolerances.

      The defn. of a meter for example is the distance traveled by light in a few billionths of a second or something.

      I am questioning the necessity of the sphere, not the necessity of defining masses in terms of physical constants.


      And how are you going to count the molecules? I use a calibrated (NIST traceable) analytical balance. And yes, the calibration weights do cost a fortune.

    85. Re:alternate theories by fatphil · · Score: 1

      *Strictly* speaking, a balance compares the torques that the forces exert. Place the pivot closer to one mass than the other, and they'll both still have the same gravitational force pulling on them, but the balance will not balance.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    86. Re:alternate theories by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      and what do we burn apart from witches?
      More witches !
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
  2. "perfect" sphere by johnny+cashed · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Yeah, right, a perfect sphere. Ok, I'm sure it could be an improvement, but can you ever really get a perfect anything? (I'm talking about physical objects here)

    1. Re:"perfect" sphere by Rendo · · Score: 1, Funny

      Women are perfect, and they're physical objects. Or at least they've always told me that...

    2. Re:"perfect" sphere by Aladrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, it's impossible. What they -really- mean is that it'll be perfect as far as we are able to measure it. And it has absolutely nothing to do with what is really important here: They are counting the atoms of silicon in a kilogram and will use that measurement as the basis for the kilogram, instead of some lump of metal in a vault.

      The kilogram will not change, only a proposed scientific definition of it.

      The sphere doesn't mean -anything- except that it'll weight exactly a kilogram and be amazingly round.

      There's either a lot of media spin, or someone's attempt to get his work recognized and used. From what I can see, there's not a single soul that has dedicated to USING this new scientific definition, other than those directly involved with the project.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    3. Re:"perfect" sphere by giorgiofr · · Score: 1

      Well, at the end of the day you can't build with physical objects, even as tiny as atoms, a perfectly spherical shape. So this point is moot anyway. They probably meant "more precise than ever created".

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    4. Re:"perfect" sphere by Walzmyn · · Score: 1

      Hey c'mon. It's gotta be easier than flying to paris and going through security to get into that vault every time you want to weigh something.

    5. Re:"perfect" sphere by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Funny

      "but can you ever really get a perfect anything?"

      The whole notion of "silicon balls" sounds fake to me!

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    6. Re:"perfect" sphere by Gorshkov · · Score: 3, Funny

      May God have mercy on your soul if you ever attempt to call a woman a physical object to her face.

    7. Re:"perfect" sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      >May God have mercy on your soul if you ever attempt to call a woman a physical object to her face.
      Especially if he compares her to a perfect sphere.

    8. Re:"perfect" sphere by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Informative
      There's either a lot of media spin, or someone's attempt to get his work recognized and used.

      It's important enough for laboratories in Germany, Italy, Belgium, Japan, Australia and USA to invest a great deal of time and effort.

      The spheres are being made by CSIRO's Centre for Precision Optics. They've been making precision spheres for research since the late '80s, and have all the recognition they need from anyone who has a clue.

      Have a look here; http://www.tip.csiro.au/IMP/Optical/spheres.htm. It might help you understand the project better.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    9. Re:"perfect" sphere by CommunistHamster · · Score: 5, Funny

      It makes the calculations simpler.

    10. Re:"perfect" sphere by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Funniest comeback, eva!

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    11. Re:"perfect" sphere by metlin · · Score: 3, Funny

      Would you rather a square? =)

      Reminds me of a story - a friend had gotten a boob-job and we were all out for dinner one night. Another common friend of ours hadn't known this and the first time he saw her, he burst out - "You've grown three dimensionally!"

    12. Re:"perfect" sphere by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      Talk to one some time ;)

    13. Re:"perfect" sphere by nine-times · · Score: 1

      ???

    14. Re:"perfect" sphere by noz · · Score: 1

      She'll get over it when she finds the perfecltly useful gram of coke on the coffee table.

    15. Re:"perfect" sphere by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Informative
      They're probably also going to get a lot of opposition to changing the 'definition'.

      No, it's widely accepted as a necessary step towards being able to define the unit of mass in terms of a specific number of carbon 12 atoms. Look, it would be a lot better for this discussion if you made the effort to learn what the project was for.

      Just because you personally don't understand it doesn't make it "media spin" or otherwise redundant. There's more information here http://www.npl.co.uk/mass/avogadro.html, including an FAQ which might clear up some of your misconceptions.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    16. Re:"perfect" sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The Gravity Probe B (GP-B) project holds the current record for the roundest object. Incidentally, just this month GP-B released a portion of their final data that experimentally confirms general relativity!!! (Which was strangely deemed not newsworthy when submitted to slashdot.)

      After years of work and the invention of new technologies and processes for polishing, measuring sphericity, and thin-film coating, the result was a homogenous 1.5-inch sphere of pure fused quartz, polished to within a few atomic layers of perfectly smooth. In fact, the GP-B gyro rotors are now listed in the Guinness Database of World Records as being the roundest objects ever manufactured; they are topped in sphericity only by neutron stars. The spherical rotors are the heart of each GP-B gyroscope. The raw quartz material was mined in Brazil, and then fused (baked) and refined in a proprietary process at Heraeus Amercil in Germany. The interior composition of each gyro rotor is homogeneous to within two parts in a million. On its surface, each gyroscope rotor is less than three ten-millionths of an inch from perfect sphericity. This means that every point on the surface of the rotor is the exact same distance from the center of the rotor to within 3x10-7 inches. If a GP-B gyroscope rotor were enlarged to the size of the Earth, its tallest mountain or deepest ocean trench would be less than eight feet!
      http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/exec_summary/ GP-B_ExecSum-scrn.pdf[PDF]
    17. Re:"perfect" sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To put this in perspective, if this sphere was the size of the Earth, and my calculations are correct, the largest "mountain" would be slightly less than 300 feet. That's pretty impressive.

    18. Re:"perfect" sphere by Alchemar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The real purpose of the project is to produce a reproducable standard. If something was to happen to the lump of metal that currently defines a kilogram, there is no reliable way to reproduce it. You can make another lump of metal and weigh it, but even the most precise scale we have been calibrated back to the original lump of metal plus or minus the error of the machine. The problem is that the errors are cumulative. If we have to replace the lump of metal several times, it will be less and less precise. If however we can base the weight on a physical constant, then we can use that physical constant to calibrate future scales on. There will be errors based on the precision of the machine, but they are no longer cumulative. If you build a more precise machine, you get a more precise measurement.

    19. Re:"perfect" sphere by BMazurek · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I remember a small magazine (called Science Digest, IIRC) I read in the mid 80's. It was short little science articles, probably a couple hundred words each (at most)...not unlike RSS feeds today, perhaps.

      One article was about scientists making the most perfect sphere to date out of some crystal. It was measured to be so perfectly round that if you scaled it up to the size of the earth, it's highest peak would be 12 feet higher than it's lowest point.

      I'm sure the technology for this thing has improved a lot in 20 years.

    20. Re:"perfect" sphere by CensorshipDonkey · · Score: 2, Informative

      As if a billion devices around the world couldn't do the same thing.
      If this was true, there would be no reason for a standard in the first place, would there? Why don't you read a little about the ideas behind the work.
    21. Re:"perfect" sphere by hal2814 · · Score: 2, Funny

      A friend with a boob job? This is Slashdot so you're obviously not talking about a female (I'll ignore the "her" and assume it's a typo.). Who got the boob job? Is his name Robert Paulson?

    22. Re:"perfect" sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know every physics paper that I ever wrote always referred to kilo measurements as "weighing the same as that lump of metal in a vault in Paris". Now I'll be able to write "weighing the same as that sphere of silicon in a vault in Paris". I mean it just rolls right of the tongue.

    23. Re:"perfect" sphere by hey! · · Score: 0

      It makes the calculations simpler.

      What? Moment of inertia about the z axis divided by natural period of oscillation?

      If we're talking about females (which is what I call the distaff side of the human race when I have my geek hat on), it is easier and more amusing to measure than to calculate this parameter.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    24. Re:"perfect" sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's this idiot again running around making comments about shit he knows absolutely nothing about. Thanks for once again choosing the losing side of an 'argument' (or childish nonsensical rant thing) to make everyone else look smarter. Cheers asshole!

    25. Re:"perfect" sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol. The stupidity on display here is A+.
      Keep failing at being even the slightest bit educated.

    26. Re:"perfect" sphere by shaitand · · Score: 1

      'A friend'

      He didn't say girlfriend. I'm sure there are no shortage of losers stuck in the friend zone.

    27. Re:"perfect" sphere by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      The Borg haven't even been able to make a perfect sphere, so probably not.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    28. Re:"perfect" sphere by nsayer · · Score: 1

      The whole notion of "silicon balls" sounds fake to me! You're both right and wrong, depending on how you look at it.

    29. Re:"perfect" sphere by rduke15 · · Score: 1

      Sorry for the stupid question, but I'm a foreigner. What is a "boob job"? Google's "define:boob job" didn't return any results.

    30. Re:"perfect" sphere by icyandunapproachable · · Score: 1

      This isn't a kilogram; it's a mamogram.
      Thank you.

    31. Re:"perfect" sphere by Guppy · · Score: 1

      It makes the calculations simpler. Just take special care not to mention "cow" anywhere in your explanation to her.
    32. Re:"perfect" sphere by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but when you try to weigh it, it keeps rolling off the scale.

    33. Re:"perfect" sphere by gharris · · Score: 1

      Breast implants.

      For future reference, the Urban Dictionary is a good, well, reference for slang terms.

      --Glenn

    34. Re:"perfect" sphere by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1

      If you build a more precise machine, you get a more precise measurement.

      Also, in a few hundred years (or a few hundred-thousand years), people won't have to redo precise (expensive) measurements that were made during the last 100 years, because the information recorded now will have the same meaning over time. Otherwise, people will have to try to guess what the mass of a "2007 kilogram" is compared to what they will be using in the future.

    35. Re:"perfect" sphere by rduke15 · · Score: 1

      Thanks

    36. Re:"perfect" sphere by Plutonite · · Score: 1

      Your question demonstrates the rhetorical rationality of arguments *for* stringent immigration laws.

    37. Re:"perfect" sphere by fbartho · · Score: 1

      me.

      --
      Gravity Sucks
    38. Re:"perfect" sphere by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Don't sweat it, I checked your profile and you aren't a friendless loser. You have fans, three of to be precise.

    39. Re:"perfect" sphere by Doug+Neal · · Score: 1

      How rude

    40. Re:"perfect" sphere by rduke15 · · Score: 1

      I didn't understand it as rude, but as funny.

      Maybe because I'm not an immigrant, nor do I wish to become one. I feel fine on another continent.

    41. Re:"perfect" sphere by Plutonite · · Score: 1

      He was being sarcastic. Welcome to the US of A :)

  3. don't need to create it to define it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look, I like advancing on the French as much as any Anglo-Saxon worth his meat, but if we know the mass of one atom of silicon, then we don't need to construct a "perfect sphere" of silicon atoms to redefine the kilogram; we can just say "it's defined as x atoms".

    1. Re:don't need to create it to define it by setagllib · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The point of having a physical object is that it can be used as a root for calibrating devices. From there you can calibrate more devices on each other. The further you get, the less likely you are to be precise, but the chances are pretty good that little deviations up and down will cancel out overall. But it's absolutely important to have an exact starting point, and a physical object is the only way to do that.

      It's a lot easier to measure a large object than a small one and multiply it, since a small error will also multiply out. What I don't get is how they intend to build an exact number of atoms into the sphere. You would need some other exact measurement, like number of electrons for calculating precise electrolysis procedures.

      --
      Sam ty sig.
    2. Re:don't need to create it to define it by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      They don't. What is important is to know the mass of the sphere preciesely not for the sphere to be precisely one kilogram.

    3. Re:don't need to create it to define it by AlecC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And you are you going to determine if you have x atoms? It will take a long time to count them out. That is the point of this project: to create an object, the sphere, whose number of atoms is known as precisely as possible. If it is a perfect sphere, its volume is precisely known. And if the crystal spacing of silicon is known (which it is, very well), then you have a very precisely known number of silicon atoms. This means that you have a macro-scale object, suitable for use in a balance or equivalent, whose mass is known in terms of unique natural substance rather than an arbitrary lump.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
  4. So we use a irrational number to define something? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since we're injecting Pi into the definition of a standard, that makes the standard ultimately unmeasurable doesn't it?
    I'd rather have a cube than a sphere.

  5. First of all by alx5000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... no sphere made of atoms will ever be a perfect one.
    Second, if that rusty lump in Paris defines what a kilogram is, in no way is this sphere gonna change that.

    --
    My 0.02 cents
    1. Re:First of all by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 4, Informative

      Second, if that rusty lump in Paris defines what a kilogram is, in no way is this sphere gonna change that.

      That's wrong. The lump is not rusty, because the lump is platinum-iridium which is quite unreactive so that corrosion ("rust") won't affect the material. Corrosion alters the weight, you know.

      Second, it can change the definition. The metre used to be a platinum rod in Paris, now it is defined in how much distance light does in a certain (very short) time. Here it will be that the kilogram will be defined as N silicium atoms. (Where N is a very large number) Scientists do not like definitions based on objects, they prefer definitions based on universal constants. All this could of course be read in the article....

    2. Re:First of all by alx5000 · · Score: 1

      I knew about the metre, I knew about the rod. I just think it's stupid to try and make a silicon sphere, when you can just say (as you stated in your reply) that 1 kilogram is X silicium atoms. BTW, if scientists don't like definitions based on objects then I'll guess it does make quite a lot sense to define a kilogram with a silicon sphere...

      --
      My 0.02 cents
    3. Re:First of all by jackb_guppy · · Score: 1

      Round makes the math easier, since they are not actually going to count the number of atoms. 4/3 pi() r^3

    4. Re:First of all by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      Second, if that rusty lump in Paris defines what a kilogram is, in no way is this sphere gonna change that. Wow, what a great straight line. There's just so many opportunities, I feel like Quagmire in an adult entertainment store. Giggity-giggity!

      "Rusty lump? Oh, I'm sure she can afford to go with actual silicone."

      "Wow, did that come out in the cavity search?"

      "Biggest ben wa ball ever."

      "That's not a rusty lump, that's my watch, you insensitive clod!"
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    5. Re:First of all by martinthebrit · · Score: 1

      "Quite unreactive" means "non totally unreactive". Actually the word quite is an oddity in that it has two seemingly contradictory definitions. The most common meaning is "to an extent", as you have interpreted it. However I believe that the original meaning of the word was "absolutely, completely", commonly found in classic literature. Hence the original assertion that platinum/irridium alloy is unreactive was correct.
    6. Re:First of all by Goaway · · Score: 1

      And then when you need a kilogram to calibrate against, how were you planning on counting out those silicon items to put on your scale?

    7. Re:First of all by alx5000 · · Score: 1, Funny

      The same way I measure how many 1/299,792,458's of a second takes light to get from home to where I work...

      --
      My 0.02 cents
    8. Re:First of all by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      No, because only iron can rust and the reference kilogram is not made of iron. So while it might have oxidised a bit it has not rusted, and will never rust :-)

    9. Re:First of all by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, despite the name, you cannot actually count atoms with an atomic clock.

      Try again.

    10. Re:First of all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's not totally unreactive. Nothing is totally unreactive (under the proper conditions, even the noble gasses can be involved in chemical reactions)

    11. Re:First of all by tenco · · Score: 1

      And why a Sphere?? That's because physicists like spheric symmetric objects. Spheric coordinates in conjunction with symmetry make the math easier.
    12. Re:First of all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does her brain have to do with a Kg?

    13. Re:First of all by AlecC · · Score: 1

      As TFA said, the reason for a sphere is that anything with edges can get chipped. The accuracy of the sphere is 35nm, which is still significantly larger than the crystal lattice of silicon, which is of the order of 0.1nm. The variation on the diameter of the sphere is therefore of the order of 350 atoms.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    14. Re:First of all by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 1

      And a unit of time is... ? (no, really, I'd like to know!)

      --
      Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
      Africus aut Europaeus?
    15. Re:First of all by jawtheshark · · Score: 1
      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    16. Re:First of all by glowurm · · Score: 1

      From TFA:
      "A spherical shape was chosen for the project because it has no edges that might be damaged, and the volume can be calculated by using its diameter."

  6. Huh? by CarpetShark · · Score: 0

    OK, someone's going to have to explain this for me. Why do we have to have an actual object to define a weight?

    1. Re:Huh? by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      Because it's 'scientific' that way. This is apparently someone's pet project and they are acting like the world has asked them to do it.

      I'm not against the project, and I think it'll be nice to have a more scientific definition, but it doesn't change -anything-. A kg is still a kg. There is no scientific theory being used to create the 'perfect weight system' or anything like that. They are merely measuring what already exists and using it.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    2. Re:Huh? by Timesprout · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You are correct. They should just use a single atom of unobtanium and keep it in a chamber where gravity is increased to the point that it weighs 1 Kg.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
    3. Re:Huh? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "Why do we have to have an actual object to define a weight?"

      Kinda like asking: why do we need space to define distance? - The reason is that only physical objects posses mass (to be pedantic you also need the planet Earth to define weight).

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    4. Re:Huh? by EricWright · · Score: 1, Informative

      Mass is constant (assuming it is at rest), and has nothing to do with the force of gravity on an object. The mass times gravitational acceleration is the weight, often reported in lbs or Newtons. In other words, a kilogram here is a kilogram everywhere.

      BTW, in the English measurement system, mass is measured in stones.

    5. Re:Huh? by Englabenny · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Um, that's the typical physical misunderstanding. A kilogram is a measure of mass, not weight. Thus we need this object as defining a kilogram comes from what an object is (mass), not what it seems to be (weight).

    6. Re:Huh? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 4, Informative

      A lot of units can be defined using physical properties : a second is 9,192,631,770 periods of a precise physical reaction (transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom according to the wikipedia), a meter is the distance travelled by light in a 1/299,792,458 of a second and so one, Volts, Joules, etc... are defined this way. Mass, however, was not yet related to physics constants. So there is a "yardstick" for kilograms. A platinium cylinder was made a century ago, the closest we could get to what was considered a kilogram at this time and it was proclaimed "the exact measurement of a kilogram is the mass of this particular object". It is stored somewhere in Paris. I am sure that modern scientists will manage to conceive an experiment with a great precision to transform the kilogram unit into the abstraction it is supposed to be.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    7. Re:Huh? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      you also need the planet Earth to define weight

      And at this level of precision the location of the measurement may be very important. I don't think you could take this sphere to a different latitude and get an accurate calibration.

    8. Re:Huh? by dschuetz · · Score: 4, Informative

      OK, someone's going to have to explain this for me. Why do we have to have an actual object to define a weight?

      You don't. That's just the way we've done it in the past. I read a really interesting article a couple months ago in American Scientist magazine called An Exact Value for Avogadro's Number that addresses exactly this question. In the past, Avogadro's Number (6.02andchange x 10^23) was defined experimentally, based on the reference kilogram. These scientists propose reversing that -- defining the number absolutely, based on the number of atoms of a particular element that fit within a sphere of a certain size. It's sort of similar to what they're doing with the silicon sphere, but it's all done on paper, rather than by actually manufacturing an artifact.

      The advantage of this, they say, is that the number will remain constant and not be affected over time as refinements in building and measuring such "reference kilograms" change the accepted mass of a kilogram. They make several other arguments, as well, but it's much better if you just read the article. :) It's also mentioned that a similar approach was taken to defining the meter, based on an absolute definition of the speed of light.

    9. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF?

      Mass / Volume = Density!!

      Weight = Mass * Gravity acceleration.

      What they are defining is mass (kg), not weight. Weight is defined in newtons or kgf.

    10. Re:Huh? by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ok, people are giving snarky answers here, but I'll try to give you a more straight answer.

      The only way we have to keep a standard unit is to have an object with that unit and call that the standard. Let's say you were building some sort of a scale that would measure weight in kilograms; you'd have to calibrate it first. This means that you'd have to find an existing weight that was one kilogram, put it on the scale, and mark that this weight is a kilogram. But then how do you find a 1 kilogram weight? You have to measure it on some scale that's already calibrated correctly. This chain continues, and has to end somewhere.

      So the two questions I anticipate are:

      1. why not keep an already calibrated scale?
      2. why do we need a particular weight stored somewhere, instead of continually basing the measurement on kilograms measured on other scales?

      To answer the first question, a scale would be harder to maintain accurately. It could break, and calibrations don't hold forever. You'd have to re-calibrate it every so often, and how do you do that without an object known to be exactly 1kg?

      The answer to the second question (which I imagine might have been your question all along) is a little more complicated. Let's imagine that we have no exact 1kg object stored anywhere that we use as the standard. So one guy in a lab is using an iron ball as his 1kg weight, calibrating scales with it, and selling scales to others. The iron ball slowly rusts over time, and the weight of the ball changes a little. Someone takes one of the scales calibrated with the rusty balls and does the same thing, but this time with his own hunk of iron, but the environmental conditions in this guy's lab aren't as controlled, and he tends to get water condensation on his iron ball, meaning it rusts faster and each calibration varies depending on how much water has collected.

      Now, imagine it keeps on like this for 75 years, with different guys selling scales, getting their original measure from someone else, and then using their less-than-perfect means to continue calibrating and making scales. After 75 years, there are some drastically different "kilograms" floating around I buy a scale, measure out 1 kilogram, take it to a different scale and get 1.5 kilograms, while another says .75 kilograms. In this case, who's kilogram is "correct"? When the issue was raised, people would say, "Oh, if only we had a standard "kilogram" to compare them to!"

      And so we have someone keep a physical reference object under very controlled conditions and of materials that will prevent corrosion or other corruption to the material.

    11. Re:Huh? by Xner · · Score: 1
      Weight = Mass / Volume

      No it's not. I really wonder what the deal is with mass and weight that it gets everyone confused like that. Mass is the resistance of a body to accelleration (or gravity, which if you subscribe to the strong equivalence principle is really the same thing). It is measured in kilograms. Weight is the force that gravity exerts on a body, measured in Newton. They are related via the gravitational constant, which is not really constant.

      --
      Pathman, Free (as in GPL) 3D Pac Man
    12. Re:Huh? by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      BTW, in the English measurement system, mass is measured in stones.

      Actually, the official unit of mass in FPS system is the "slug".

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    13. Re:Huh? by u38cg · · Score: 1

      Very simply: it is very difficult to define mass in terms of something else. With distance, time, etc, it has been fairly easy to define these as so many wavelenths or so many vibrations, but measuring out a specific mass of something (by counting atoms, in this case) has until very recently been impossible. Metrology (the science of measuring) is a subject area rather taken for granted, but it does underpin everything else we do. How else do you know your voltmeter/light meter/kitchen scales/power supply/ruler is accurate enough to do the job you need it to do?

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    14. Re:Huh? by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 2, Informative

      OK, someone's going to have to explain this for me. Why do we have to have an actual object to define a weight?

      The kg is a unit of mass, not weight.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    15. Re:Huh? by s31523 · · Score: 1

      Yup. I am an idiot. Please disregard my nonsense. Move along!

    16. Re:Huh? by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1

      Weight = Mass / Volume
      Can't be true. That would imply that as I consume increasing volumes of beer, my weight would go down - but observed facts confirm the opposite.
      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
    17. Re:Huh? by s31523 · · Score: 1

      Yup. I am an idiot. That was pre-first-cup-of-coffee. D=M/V not W=M/V.

    18. Re:Huh? by vigmeister · · Score: 1

      After 75 years, there are some drastically different "kilograms" floating around I buy a scale, measure out 1 kilogram, take it to a different scale and get 1.5 kilograms, while another says .75 kilograms. In this case, who's kilogram is "correct"? When the issue was raised, people would say, "Oh, if only we had a standard "kilogram" to compare them to!"

      Actually, this happened 220 years ago and the Americans fought the British over this. Then George Washington went to the Queen and this conversation ensued

      GW: You're British...call your 'kilogram' something else...
      Queen: How about you do it?
      GW: Well, my kilogram is correct... you 'kilogram' is wrong
      Queen: Really?
      GW: Yeah! Put yours against mine on a scale...See? You don't have a kilogram iron ball.
      Queen: Aw shucks! sorry about the war man... Alright, since I am British, we call my kilogram a 'pound'. Kind of like an English 'kilogram'... like an English Unit
      GW: Ok...that's cool... so we call the war off?
      Queen: Sure!
      GW: Ok listen... I'll be embarrassed if I tell these guys that I took them to war over this instead of clearing this misunderstanding like we just did.
      Queen: And I'll be embarrassed if my guys find out that we've been using a wrong kilogram
      GW: How about you give me the continent and I'll let you use our kilogram?
      Queen: That's cool, but then I am losing a continent...
      GW: Ok... how about this? I'll use your 'English Units' so that you can make fun of us later...
      Cheers! -- Vig
      --
      Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
    19. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And at this level of precision the location of the measurement may be very important.
      Not really, they use balance here: a kilogram will balance out another kilogram no matter if you do it on the equator, the poles or on the moon.
    20. Re:Huh? by EricWright · · Score: 1

      There goes my confusion between English units and Imperial units again. Let's abolish them ALL in favor of metric!

    21. Re:Huh? by James+McP · · Score: 1

      Well, back in the 18th century when the original system was set up using physical objects was about the best they could do. The meter was based on a percentage of the earth's meridian and the kilogram is derived from volume of water at maximum density. However that turned out to be a variable number, even using the same container, because of issues with pressure.

      In the late 19th century the iridium-platinum prototype was created that were accepted to be equal to the mass of a "kilogram" of water under the conditions expected at the time of definition. Actually, three of them were created and stored in different locations to provide a check against any mass drift in the prototypes. Multiple copies have been made over the years delivered to nations across the planet to provide their own base references. There is apparently some change in mass but no one can explain why, and this is important.

      The problem is that in the interim the other units have been changed to something that can be derived. Time is based on a certain number of cycles in a cesium atom at absolute zero. Length is defined as the speed of light in a vacuum in one second. The kicker here is that as improved measuring devices appear, the accuracy of the meter and second only improve as the new measurements add extra digits off the decimal place. Anybody can do them, anywhere. Build an experimental chamber that gets closer to absolute zero and has more sensitive cesium detector = more accurate measurement of a second. Build an experimental chamber that gets closer to absolute vacuum and a more accurate measurement of a second = more accurate measurement of a meter.

      To develop a more accurate measurement of a kilogram and ...you need the lump of iridium-platinum. And that measurement will be limited by the tiny change in mass that appears to be happening with no explanation.

      Once a kilogram is defined as X atoms of silicon, anyone with a silicon atom counter can make their own base unit for equipment calibration.

      --
      I've been on slashdot so long I'm starting to get out of touch with the cool stuff if it ain't on slashdot.
    22. Re:Huh? by Dersaidin · · Score: 1

      But what abstraction is it supposed to be?
      According to some googling.. 1000 times the mass of 1 cubic centimeter of water. But then that just comes back to the original problem with this definition. Pressure and temperature effect this definition.

      So what are they aiming to set the kilogram as? Many SI units, and measurements we've made, are based around the international prototype.
      Are they just trying to define the mass of the international prototype in terms of atoms?

    23. Re:Huh? by J_Darnley · · Score: 1

      Mass and weight are related by the accleration due to gravity, g. F = m*g This value varies with position. The Gravitaional constant, G, is a constant. This value is fixed throughout the universe. It can also relate mass and weight through the equation F = G(m1*m2)/(r^2)

    24. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you think this isn't important, there is a world of difference between .75 kilograms and 1 kilogram when you are trying to offload some heroin to a twitchy guy holding a shotgun.

    25. Re:Huh? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      The goal is to get a measure as precise as possible of the international prototype and transform it into a definition that can have an arbitrary precision or at least a precision superseeding today's limitations like "a kilogram is the mass of X atoms of silicon".

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    26. Re:Huh? by ddimas · · Score: 1
      Weight = Mass / Volume

      Weight is a force.

      Gravitational attraction is an acceleration (see A. Einstien et al).

      Therefore

      Weight=mass times accelation

      or

      F=ma

    27. Re:Huh? by Snafoo · · Score: 1

      It also matters from a philosophy-of-science perspective *to the metric system.* While in practical terms it's the usefulness of the metric system which stands as its ultimate justification, it also helps keep the metric system on the same page as good scientific practice if its basic postulates are somehow empirically verifiable. Imagine what it would be like if the metric system was based on the idea of the length of the staff of God, or on the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin. It doesn't fit right with the rest of the scientific project -- it's like putting peanut butter in your spaghetti sauce. If the metric system *was* set up this way, one can imagine it feeling competitive pressure from a similarly efficient and congenial system of measure based on the empirically verifiable properties of middle-sized objects; e.g., spheres of silicon. Now, you might not think that much is gained by going from a chunk of platinum to a sphere of silicon, but science is all about incremental improvements, and (as the article and other posters point out) there are certain properties of a silicon sphere which make it a more reliable/stable proxy for the ideal kilogram. (Remember, the closer your empirically verifiable properties are to the ideal properties you postulate, the better your scientific theory.)

      --
      - undoware.ca
    28. Re:Huh? by MaceyHW · · Score: 1

      What you say is true, but they still need the sphere because a standard for the kilogram already exists. This is a two step process.
      Step 1: create a formula that defines mass in the abstract.
      Step 2: calibrate that formula as closely as possible to the existing standard.

      Step 2 is only necessary to ensure consistency between the new definition of the kilogram and the old (so that a kilogram doesn't suddenly weigh more or less than it used to). If they were creating an entirely new unit of mass, they wouldn't need the sphere, but because the current definition of a kilogram is an object, they need to create an object and count the atoms.

      There's some sort of analog-to-digital metaphor involving OCR here but I can't figure it out.

    29. Re:Huh? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I don't know about all that, but I gathered the advantage of the silicon balls was that they could give a number of atoms in the sphere. If you base the kilogram on an arbitrary piece of silicon (whatever material you please) and you lose that silicon, then you can't easily replicate that weight again. However, if we posit that the weight of silicon atoms don't change, and you can measure the number of atoms in a silicon sphere, then we'd be able to say, "1 kg = x silicon atoms". Even if you lose that chunk, you can always make a new one.

      Of course, I'm not sure I understand how they count the atoms. I'm also not sure how different isotopes of silicon are accounted for. (do they separating out one isotope and use it to make the sphere? Or are they assuming a certain mixture of specific isotopes?) But it seems like the big idea is to give a definition of the kilogram that references a more universal constant that could be replicated.

    30. Re:Huh? by esrobinson · · Score: 0

      How about something like: 1 kg = the mass with the same internal energy as a photon with a frequency of c^2/h J*m^2/s.

    31. Re:Huh? by Bongo+Bill · · Score: 1

      I don't know, but if we're going to steal it we're running out of time!

      --
      ...but is it art?
    32. Re:Huh? by Ornedan · · Score: 1

      Of course, I'm not sure I understand how they count the atoms. I'm also not sure how different isotopes of silicon are accounted for. (do they separating out one isotope and use it to make the sphere? Or are they assuming a certain mixture of specific isotopes?) But it seems like the big idea is to give a definition of the kilogram that references a more universal constant that could be replicated. To count the atoms:
      1) Measure the size of the sphere.
      2) Measure how far apart the individual silicon atoms are in the crystal lattice. Since the crystal is approximately perfect, that distance will be constant over the whole sphere.
      Through 1 & 2, the number of Si atoms in the sphere is calculable, with nice and low error margins.
      Isotope ratios can be calculated from another piece of Si from the same crystal the sphere is made of using mass spectrometry.
    33. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These scientists propose reversing that -- defining the number absolutely, based on the number of atoms of a particular element that fit within a sphere of a certain size. The proposal is in terms of number of atoms, not in terms of any linear or volumetric measure (which would make it temperature-dependent).
  7. Old news... by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Not a dupe, but I have seen this at least twice on German TV and that was already quite some time ago.

    1. Re:Old news... by allscan · · Score: 1

      Of course you've already heard about this in the EU. Slashdot is a primarily US focused site, and as we all know the US is stuck with retarded imperial measurements. No wonder we lag behind the rest of the world in education, jobs, and I see now we've dropped in broadband penetration as well.

    2. Re:Old news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, in the UK we have to deal with BOTH- at all times!
      And you yanks got your 'imperial' measurements wrong at some point... I believe that you use 'US customary units', NOT Imperial, which is what we use. There are some differences.

    3. Re:Old news... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      the US is stuck with retarded imperial measurements. No wonder we lag behind the rest of the world in education, jobs...

      Its not hard to change. We did it in the early '70's here in Australia. That would have been the ideal time, right after the Apollo program ended with everybody upbeat about the future. It just takes a will to change.

    4. Re:Old news... by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      . . . and as we all know the US is stuck with retarded imperial measurements. No wonder we lag behind the rest of the world in education, jobs, and I see now we've dropped in broadband penetration as well.

      My broadband gets 400000000 gils per fortnight, and that's the way I likes it!

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    5. Re:Old news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...as we all know the US is stuck with retarded imperial measurements

      Hardly stuck. That can of cola in your hand is measured in ml, as is the box of cereal you poured your breakfast out of this morning. American cars have been built using metric fasteners since the 70's. (It is convenient that 13mm and 14mm wrenches work on 1/2" and 9/16" bolts too, and vice versa.) Some states even post the speed limit in kph.

      And I guess you haven't been to England lately either. They still measure car mileage in mpg (even tho' petrol is sold in lit{er,re}s,) but it is a bit annoying that the exact same car gets better mpg in England than it does in the US. There will be a suitable prize if you can explain why. And they still weigh themselves in stones and pounds.

      So we live in a country where we let people use what they like, and the vast majority of the 300,000,000 or so people who live here like miles and pounds. I don't see what the problem is.

  8. Why silicon sphere? by chengee · · Score: 1

    Ok... now.. does it have to be a sphere at all, why not cube? Hey silicon spheres.. perfect for implants!

    --
    --------- Cheng Ee well well
    1. Re:Why silicon sphere? by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      Explained in the article: cubes have edges and due to that they are more prone to get damaged.

      Oh, and Silicon != Silicone. I pity the woman with Silicon breast implants...

      Of course, you were trying to be funny.... I know, I know, that's the sound of a joke going over my head.

    2. Re:Why silicon sphere? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFA and your question will be answered

    3. Re:Why silicon sphere? by dcsmith · · Score: 1

      I don't suppose pointing out that silicon the element and silicone the polymer are different will stop the impending flood of breast implant jokes, will it?

      --
      This has been a test. If this had been an actual Sig, you would have been amused.
    4. Re:Why silicon sphere? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "why not cube?"

      Why not RTFA....oh wait..what am I saying...

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    5. Re:Why silicon sphere? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Silicon implants only seem bad until you realize how many transistors you can fit into them.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    6. Re:Why silicon sphere? by Aqua_boy17 · · Score: 1

      You must be new here. Welcome to slashdot.

      --
      What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
  9. The real reason they are changing it by antifoidulus · · Score: 3, Funny

    is because they are embarrassed of the fact that a T-rex managed to steal the original one and now they need a replacement.

    1. Re:The real reason they are changing it by eclectro · · Score: 1

      Actually the real reason they are changing it is so the kilogram can have balls.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    2. Re:The real reason they are changing it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      T-Rex didn't steal the kilogram - God Himself did. Read the last panel more carefully.

  10. Ah yes... by Nerdposeur · · Score: 4, Funny

    ..but how can they make sure the new kilogram weighs a kilogram? :)

    1. Re:Ah yes... by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      ..but how can they make sure the new kilogram weighs a kilogram? :)

      They put it on a scale, silly!

      --
      So say we all
    2. Re:Ah yes... by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      ..but how can they make sure the new kilogram weighs a kilogram? :)

      Actually the kilogram is a unit of mass, not weight. We say "it weights X kilograms", but we should really say "it weights under Earth's surface gravity the same as X kilograms". But of course we don't say that. We don't even say kilogram, we usually say "kilo", which means only "a thousand"!!

      --
      So say we all
    3. Re:Ah yes... by Jamu · · Score: 1

      Weigh it against the old kilogram.

      --
      Who ordered that?
    4. Re:Ah yes... by tepples · · Score: 1

      but how can they make sure the new kilogram weighs a kilogram? By putting it on an extremely precise balance against a carefully made copy of the Sevres kilo.
    5. Re:Ah yes... by at0mjack · · Score: 4, Informative

      They don't. The idea isn't to make the new sphere weigh a kilogram. The idea is to redefine the kilogram in terms of the weight of an atom of silicon (i.e. 602383623523895723945743 atoms of Si-14 weigh exactly 14 grams). The idea of the ultrapure and ultraround Si sphere is that (a) you can measure the lattice spacing of the Si atoms in it using x-ray crystallography, so you know how far apart the Si atoms are, and (b) you can measure the diameter of your ultraround sphere very accurately, so you can calculate its volume very accurately. Given these two, you can calculate with very small error bars how many atoms of Si there are in the sphere, and given the definition of the kg in terms of how many atoms of Si make up a kg you can calculate exactly how much the sphere weighs.

      You can then stick it on your balance that needs calibrating, and twiddle the dials until the balance thinks that the sphere weighs the same as the calculated weight.

    6. Re:Ah yes... by NotmyNick · · Score: 1

      The idea is to redefine the kilogram in terms of the weight of an atom of silicon (i.e. 602383623523895723945743 atoms of Si-14 weigh exactly 14 grams).
      Somehow I don't trust someone who:
      1. Doesn't know that Si-14 doesn't exist.
      2. Doesn't know that the lightest naturally occuring isotope of silicon is the commonest, Si-28(0.92223), M=27.98 . (Si-29_0.04685),(Si-30_0.03092)
      3. Doesn't know Na even to 4 sigs or that its best estimate is 8 sigs. (6.02214179 +/- 0.00000030)x10^23
      --
      Notmysig
    7. Re:Ah yes... by at0mjack · · Score: 1

      Ok, my mistake: by brain was thinking atomic weight but my fingers were thinking atomic number :). OTOH, your point (3) is spurious as the idea behind the entire enterprise is to set Na to a fixed value. And no, I don't know Na to 8sf: I'm not that sad...

    8. Re:Ah yes... by Poromenos1 · · Score: 1

      So the idea is to make the new kilogram weigh this sphere?

      --
      Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
    9. Re:Ah yes... by NotmyNick · · Score: 1

      OTOH, your point (3) is spurious as the idea behind the entire enterprise is to set Na to a fixed value. And no, I don't know Na to 8sf: I'm not that sad...
      I knew it because of all the homework and lab exercises that made it easier to memorize than look it up. There's nothing spurious about fixing the number. All it represents is a concept. The same thing was done with the second and the meter. It would change the value of any arbitrary mass (and the current standard artifact) by, at most, one part in 10^8, which is better than the mass standard precision is known today as it is due to issues with erosion and deposition. The relative atomic masses of C12 and U238 are known better than the mass of any large uncounted quantity of them can be stated.
      --
      Notmysig
  11. Si for silicon? by zblach · · Score: 1

    (1 000 / 28.09) * 6.02 * (10^23) = 2.14311143 × 10^25

    Why does redefining 1 kilogram to be one kilogram important? or is SI an abbreviation for silicon?

    And funny how a silicon 'sphere' is to be the 'roundest object ever'

    --
    # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i sheep | wc -l i can't sleep.
    1. Re:Si for silicon? by Timesprout · · Score: 1

      They want to redefine it because for some reason the International Prototype in Paris is slowly getting lighter over time (apparently its 50 micro grams lighter now). So they looking for something a little more constant and based on scientific principles in the same way they redefined the metre from a platinum rod to the distance travelled by light in absolute vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
    2. Re:Si for silicon? by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 1

      "And funny how a silicon 'sphere' is to be the 'roundest object ever'"

      Indeed round versus sphere. I was thinking that myself.

      Regardless, your comment reminded me of something else:
      I always thought that the Earth itself is actually the 'roundest' object on Earth.

      Supposedly, if you could scale even the best man-made spherical things to the size of the Earth, the surface variations would make Everest and the Dead sea look like foothills and potholes (respectively) by comparison.

      I wonder how well this particular sphere stacks up in that regard. (Well, by definition I suppose spheres don't stack very well at all... at least, not the near 'perfect' ones, but you get my meaning)

      --

      The Digital Sorceress
    3. Re:Si for silicon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They want to redefine it because for some reason the International Prototype in Paris is slowly getting lighter over time (apparently its 50 micro grams lighter now).


      No. 50 micrograms are defined by that very Prototype. Formally, it can only mean that every other mass in the universe gained ~50ppm mass
    4. Re:Si for silicon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not very spherical. It's actually measurably squashed. That's why your GPS has this reference to "Elipsoid"

    5. Re:Si for silicon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, surely if your making a distinction between roundness and sphericality then the Earth is the least round object on Earth, being the biggest (since curvature is inversely proportional to radius).

      Your supposedly is provably incorrect: from TFA (actually this one is better) they are making 93 mm diameter spheres, and CSIRO's (who are behind this story, and have previous experience in ultra high precision production) process can produce spheres with a deviation from spherical of as little as 35 nm.

      The mean radius of Earth is 6372.797 km, hence mean diameter of 12745.594 km. This is 137,049,397 times greater than the diameter of the sphere they are making.

      Scaling their deviation of 35 nm up by 137,049,397 times gives a proportional deviation of 4.797 metres.

      Everest dwarfs this at 8848 metres.

      Even the Dead Sea with a surface elevation of -418 metres, a max depth of 330m (therefore lowest basin elevation of -748 metres) dwarfs it by any reasonable measure.

      Going in the other direction, scaling Everest down gives about 65 microns. This is just not a challenging accuracy to modern engineering.

    6. Re:Si for silicon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SI stands for "Système International d'Unités" or International System of Units.

    7. Re:Si for silicon? by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 1

      Ahh, ya know, that one slipped right through my "sanity checker". You make an excellent point. Mental note made... "next time, check snopes and/or call the MythBusters" :)

      --

      The Digital Sorceress
    8. Re:Si for silicon? by AlecC · · Score: 1

      While the Earth is very round compared to most things, it is not round compared to these. The spheres on Gravity Probe B, previously the nearest to perfect spheres, were reported to be so round that if they were scaled to the Earth, the maximum deviation from abyss to mountaintop would be 12 ft. These are even rounder.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
  12. I always thought that by oliverthered · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A kilogram was equal to 1000 millilitres of water and that 1000 millilitres of water would fit into a space 10cm cubed.

    If they've already defined the metre using constants, isn't something like this the best way of defining a kilogram.

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    1. Re:I always thought that by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      Shhh it's a make work project. We were taught [in Canada] that 1g = 1ml = 1cm^3.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    2. Re:I always thought that by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      One problem with that is the density of water varies w/ the temperature (it's this characteristic which makes life on earth possible --- water gets more dense as it approaches the freezing point, then less dense when it freezes), so the definition has to include a temperature &c.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    3. Re:I always thought that by at0mjack · · Score: 5, Informative

      The main problem with this as a definition is that water expands and contracts with temperature. So, if you wanted to define the kilogram in terms of a volume of water, you need to specify the temperature at which you are making the measurement. Temperature isn't something you can measure with very high precision (parts per million or parts per billion), so you end up with unavoidably large errors. As a result this is useless as a basic standard, the essence of which is that you should be able to repeat the standard measurement and get the same answer to N decimal places.

    4. Re:I always thought that by Nimey · · Score: 1
      I'm pretty sure that STP (standard temperature & pressure) is implied.

      ...except according to Wackypedia, various standards bodies don't agree on STP:

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    5. Re:I always thought that by at0mjack · · Score: 1

      More to the point, you can't measure temperature accurately enough (it's a statistical property, not a fundamental one). The best thermometers get errors of a few ppm at STP: a few ppm error is absolutely useless for a kilogram standard.

    6. Re:I always thought that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The problem isn't with the various definitions of STP, but rather that the P element in each of them (pressure) has mass as a component term, introducing circularity into the definition. (Pressure is in Pascals, where 1 Pa = 1 N / m^2; the Newton is 1 kg * m / s^2; there is no practical alternative force component).

      A silicon crystal sphere will have the same radius over a much wider range of atmospheric pressures (and ambient temerpatures), and will be more chemically stable than the platinum-iridium ingot used to avoid the pressure-kilogram circularity.

    7. Re:I always thought that by bcmm · · Score: 1

      I think that might the the definition of a litre, not of a kg.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i llama
      Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
    8. Re:I always thought that by dave420 · · Score: 1

      At what temperature?

    9. Re:I always thought that by holywarrior21c · · Score: 0

      Then don't we need perfect piece of ruler to measure 10cm on each side of the bucket(beaker?)?

    10. Re:I always thought that by zeoslap · · Score: 1

      It's both, a litre of water weighs 1kg.

    11. Re:I always thought that by ddimas · · Score: 1
      1.0 Degree C

      1.0 Atm Pressure

      This is known as STP conditions. Unfortuneatly this varies a bit.

    12. Re:I always thought that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's 4 degree C, not 1 degree C

    13. Re:I always thought that by gkhan1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's wrong, actually. I mean, practicality doesn't really figure into defining the other units, how practical is it to define a meter as the length light travels in 1/299,792,458ths of a second? The point is that it has to be absolute. 1 dm^3 of water at 4 degrees Celsius (whatever that is in Kelvin) is exact and absolute. Plus, we already have a similar definition, the Kelvin is defined as exactly 1/273.16 of the temperature of the triple point of water. If the hokey-ness of measuring temperature figures into the kg, it should figure into the definition of the Kelvin.

      No, the REAL reason this is an impossible way to define mass is pressure. Water density depends ever so slightly on the pressure it is in. Pressure is measured in Pascals, and as we all know that 1 Pa = 1 N / 1 m^2 is the definition of the Pascal, and that Newton's second law is 1 N = 1 kg * 1 m/s^2. Which means that if you used this method, you would use the kilogram to define the kilogram. Not dice soldier. That's why we have a rusty lump.

    14. Re:I always thought that by blhack · · Score: 1

      The main problem with this as a definition is that water expands and contracts with temperature. So, if you wanted to define the kilogram in terms of a volume of water, you need to specify the temperature at which you are making the measurement. Its almost like somebody should come up with a set of standards for these things!

      hey, i know, we could call it Standard temperature and pressure!
      --
      NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
    15. Re:I always thought that by at0mjack · · Score: 1

      OK, so STP defines the temperature as 273.15 degrees K. If you're going to define/measure the kilogram to an accuracy of one part in 10^12, then you're going to need to be able to control the temperature to at least one part in 10^10 or so. Not only can't we do that, but we can't even come within orders of magnitude of it. We can't even measure temperature to within orders of magnitude of that error rate. So volume of water is fairly useless as a standard.

    16. Re:I always thought that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no. it is not at STP but at approx 4C and 1 atm. may be 3.96, I don't remember. in any case, it is the temperature at which water is densest

    17. Re:I always thought that by smithmc · · Score: 1

        If they've already defined the metre using constants, isn't something like this the best way of defining a kilogram.

      Hmm. Um, how much deuterium/tritium oxide is in that water? What temperature/pressure is it at? And how are you going to keep it from evaporating? Let's leave it to the scientists to come up with the best standard kilogram, mmm-kay?

      --
      Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
    18. Re:I always thought that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      water at what pressure and temperature? or would you expect the kilogram to change as a function of temperature and pressure?

    19. Re:I always thought that by Nivag064 · · Score: 1

      There is also a problem of knowing precisely what other elements are in the water besides Hydrogen & Oxygen, not to mention what are the isotopic ratios (e.g. what proportion of the Hydrogen nuclei have an extra proton).

      Also Water contains the other elements in various compounds of different sizes and shapes, plus they have different effects on the surrounding water molecules depending on the nature of the electron orbitals - all this will affect the density of the water.

      Finally temperature affects the density of water in non-linear ways. Water is actually densest at about 4.2 Celsius - water has structure that alters with temperature.

      The precise composition of water that was initially used to define the Kg is not known with sufficient precision to be useful.

      -Nivag

  13. Knowing the french, the Sphere is sorely needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



    Knowing the french, the Sphere is sorely needed. The french can't do anything right.

    1. Re:Knowing the french, the Sphere is sorely needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?

      No one knows...it's never been tried before!!!

      I'll be here all week....

      Good thing it's Friday!!!

  14. What's it useful for? by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Except for the challenges of making one, what's it useful for? You can't use it to calibrate anything, the wear and tear caused by the friction of handling would eventually change it's mass and defy it's purpose. Is the actual "finished product" good for anything else than sitting in another vault somewhere?

    --
    .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    1. Re:What's it useful for? by meringuoid · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Except for the challenges of making one, what's it useful for? You can't use it to calibrate anything, the wear and tear caused by the friction of handling would eventually change it's mass and defy it's purpose.

      It's hierarchical. You use the standard kilogram to calibrate other, slightly less exalted standard kilograms. So the one kept in London and the one in New York and the one in Tokyo get calibrated against the one in Paris. Then you calibrate actual working weights against those.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    2. Re:What's it useful for? by dargaud · · Score: 3, Informative

      You can't use it to calibrate anything, the wear and tear caused by the friction of handling would eventually change it's mass and defy it's purpose.
      Yes you can. The problem with the current reference weight is that it cannot be reproduced. Here you have a definition: this volume (4/3.Pi.R^3) contains such an amount of Si atoms. We define their individual mass and we define the whole sphere to be one kilo, ergo we can build another one. Just like defining the meter as a distance covered by light, here it's the weight of a given number of atoms.
      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    3. Re:What's it useful for? by Jamu · · Score: 1

      The finished product will be good for measuring mass. You would use it to calibrate more practical measures of mass. Just like the current prototype mass. The key difference would be that this finished product can be replaced. The current kilogram changes in mass, whereas the new kilogram wouldn't, as it's just n number of silicon atoms (given that silicon atoms don't change in mass). The logistics would also be simpler as anyone with the appropriate resources can simply construct a mass weighing one kilogram from the definition.

      --
      Who ordered that?
    4. Re:What's it useful for? by jabuzz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's extremely unlikely that the spehere has a mass of exactly one kilogram. What you do is assign a mass to an individual Si atom, and count the number of atoms in the sphere. You then have a mass for that sphere. The more accurately you can count the atoms the more accurate the mass assigned to the sphere.

      The idea behind this is that rather than having a absolute reference mass in a vault in Paris, we can create new reference masses at will, so we can have additional ones in London, one in New York, one in Tokyo etc. with no need to refer them back to the one in Paris.

      The fact the reference SI spheres all have slightly different masses is not important. As long as we know exactly what the mass of each sphere is, then it can be used to calibrate other secondary masses, which can in turn be used to calibrate/produce tertiary masses.

    5. Re:What's it useful for? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can make more than one of those balls simply by following the specifications. Image having one perfect kg ball in Paris, one in Tokyo, one in New York, and one on Mars...

    6. Re:What's it useful for? by AikonMGB · · Score: 2, Informative

      The sphere itself, no; you would use it in some experiments (carefully, to reduce error) for whatever purpose, and then you would put it back in the vault. However, once this Si sphere is complete they will know to some level of accuracy X how many Si atoms make up the sphere. That way this company can just create more spheres, count the number of Si atoms in it and as long as the interferometry matches the number of Si atoms they set as being 1kg to within their limits of measurement, then these other Si spheres can also be used to do the same experiments with the same level of accuracy and precision (two different things).

      The key difference between these Si spheres and the hung of metal alloy in paris is that these spheres are reproduceable. You would have an incredibly hard time creating a hunk of metal alloy the exact same mass as that in Paris; furthermore, I presume these spheres are less susceptible to degradation due to environmental effects.

      In essence, we're re-defining the kilogram so that instead of the formula 1kg=1(Hunk of Metal) we have 1kg=X(Si atoms), where X (my understanding, anyway) is what they are trying to determine as closely as possible. Once this standard is actually set, they will select an exact number of Si atoms in the middle of their error distribution and say "this is the definition for 1kg!", even if that means there's a tiny change in what 1kg really is, since the difference is so small that we wouldn't be able to tell there was one until years down the road when we have more accurate sensors to measure both mass and number of atoms. But even then, the number they chose wouldn't change.

      Aikon-

    7. Re:What's it useful for? by afidel · · Score: 1

      In reality most commercial weights are traced to the NIST standard weights, even my international supply catalogs always list the reference weights as traceable to NIST. I assume it's because so much science is done in US labs and their standards for grants probably specify NIST traceability.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    8. Re:What's it useful for? by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      The new kilogram ball is not meant for widespread use in laboratories. Right now, there's only one standard ball and it's impossible to make another ball that is exactly the same as that ball aside from a balancing act. (Literally.)

      This new definition of a kilogram will allow each country or agency interested in having a ball to make their own ball with a very high precision.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    9. Re:What's it useful for? by AlecC · · Score: 1

      But when wear and tear have damaged the first one (and they are making two), you can use the same process to make another one, which will, because it depends only on the mass of the silicon atom and the diameter of the sphere, the same (to the accuracy of the sphere). And you can tell someone on the other side of the world, or the universe, how to do the same without having to fly yur lump of metal across the world.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    10. Re:What's it useful for? by 22mcdaniel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think the kilogram is the last unit of measurement that hasn't been defined in terms of fundamental physics phenomena.
      Most definitions depend on the (hopefully) invariant properties of nature and are removed from effects of man. Nobody can drop the definition of the meter stick; its definition cannot be changed by war, by incorrect handling, by temperature, by location, by time. The definition of the meter is the same whether you are on mars or earth.
      I remember reading some time ago that people are worried that the mass of the kilogram is changing. Diffusion of atoms into and away from its surface and even its infrequent handling may change its mass. The precision of the kilogram is limited by these uncertainties.
      To recap:
      meter - Length that the speed of light travels in 1/299,792,458th of a second.
      second - Duration of 9,192,631,770 transitions between two hyperfine levels of a cesium 133 atom.
      kilogram - Weight of a chunk of metal in a jar.

  15. Okay geeks... by Dan+East · · Score: 3, Funny

    A perfect sphere, down to the atom, of 1 kg silicon would require pi to what precision?

    Dan East

    --
    Better known as 318230.
    1. Re:Okay geeks... by EricWright · · Score: 1

      By definition, a "perfect" sphere would require pi to infinite precision. Let me know when you've got that figured out.

    2. Re:Okay geeks... by tepples · · Score: 1

      A perfect sphere, down to the atom, of 1 kg silicon would require pi to what precision? Avogadro's number, the number of atoms in 0.012 kg of carbon-12 is 6.022 * 10^23. So you'd need about 25 digits for 1 kg of silicon. But there are several times that many digits in the pi song.
    3. Re:Okay geeks... by gawdonblue · · Score: 1

      Blasphemer! Pi equals 3.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 plus a whole lot more of them round things.

      You can find more information at the Creation Museum or BIBLE://I Kings 7:23/

    4. Re:Okay geeks... by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Is a perfect sphere of silicon even possible? I heard silicon atoms are lumpy.

    5. Re:Okay geeks... by Jamu · · Score: 1

      None. You just rotate the ball and trim off the excess?

      --
      Who ordered that?
    6. Re:Okay geeks... by richard.cs · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Work it out if you really want to know but it's not a problem, even if pi were needed to make the sphere which it isn't. I remember readong somewhere a while ago (it may have been on slashdot, may have been somewhere else) that 34 decimal places of pi are sufficient to calculate the radius of the uiverse to within the width of a hydrogen atom.

      It's fairly easy to prove that this is roughly correct if you look up the the two sizes. Compare the orders of magnitude.

    7. Re:Okay geeks... by Evil+Cretin · · Score: 1

      Atoms don't even have clearly defined boundaries. They're a probability "cloud".

      --
      "A deadlock has been reached. One task must die. We must now choose between murder and suicide."
    8. Re:Okay geeks... by VE3MTM · · Score: 1

      Once you have resolution below Planck's constant, any more digits are meaningless. Practically, anything below the diameter of a silicon atom would be good enough. I don't want to do the math right now, but neither require ridiculous (by today's standards) numbers of digits of Pi.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 Whoops, silly middle mouse button...
    9. Re:Okay geeks... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Since you said perfect sphere, the answer to your question is:
      All of them.

      So that means it CAN'T be a perfect Sphere. Uness pi starts repeating at some yet unknow decimal place.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:Okay geeks... by StrawberryFrog · · Score: 1

      A 1m or less sphere, accurate to an atom's radius?

      Not as many digits as you might think.

      "note that 39 digits of pi suffice to calculate the circumference of the known universe from its radius to within the diameter of the hydrogen atom"

      Remember, each digit is a 10* order of magnitude.

      --

      My Karma: ran over your Dogma
      StrawberryFrog

    11. Re:Okay geeks... by blueZ3 · · Score: 1

      Working...

      --
      Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
    12. Re:Okay geeks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is easier to use: 3 or 3.14159... without a calculator or much math at all? If you define it to be 3, everybody knows what it is, even if it isn't correct, and everybody uses 3, you don't get people scamming those who aren't as fluent in math. Practicality was a far better solution than allowing people to harm others due to the irrational nature of the ratio.

    13. Re:Okay geeks... by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 2, Funny

      640 digits of PI ought to be good enough for anyone.

      -- Should you believe authority without question?

    14. Re:Okay geeks... by stinerman · · Score: 1

      Pi does not repeat. It is irrational, and this has been proven.

      The nice thing about pi is that you can use it for conspiracy theories. For instance, did you know that in the digits of pi, George Bush's birthday, Osama bin Laden's birthday and 9/11/2001 can be found in succession?

      Obviously because pi does not terminate, there will be a point at which this occurs. Similarly, you can find your birthday and the birthdays of your x closest friends in succession.

  16. Labyrinth props by CrackedButter · · Score: 1

    Didn't David Bowie have a few of these the institute could borrow instead of making new ones? Just keep them away from baby sitters.

  17. Re:So we use a irrational number to define somethi by tom17 · · Score: 1

    We have a LOT of Pi now don't we?

    I don't know if we have enough now, but surely if we DO have enough pi that any errors in the count introduced from the inaccuracy of pi are significantly less than 1 atom, then it would be sufficient, oder?

    Want pie now!

  18. What about the pound? by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

    I've lived all my life in countries that use the metric system, so I have to ask... does the pound have an "official reference" like the kilogram?

    --
    So say we all
    1. Re:What about the pound? by thefirelane · · Score: 1

      I've lived all my life in countries that use the metric system, so I have to ask... does the pound have an "official reference" like the kilogram? Yes, it is one of those Kilogram weights, cut into a piece about 45.359237% smaller

    2. Re:What about the pound? by EricWright · · Score: 1

      The pound is a weight (mass times acceleration due to gravity). There is no standard because weight is not a fundamental dimension of measurement. I have no idea if there is an "official stone".

    3. Re:What about the pound? by marka · · Score: 1

      Indeed it has. The same one, in fact.
      A pound is defined to be exactly 0.454 kg.

    4. Re:What about the pound? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should be 0.45359237 kg.

    5. Re:What about the pound? by simong · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, there are standard Imperial weights and measures. I seem to recall that one set are on display at the Tower of London. However, the pound now seems to be legally defined as 0.453 592 37 kilogram.

    6. Re:What about the pound? by ArieKremen · · Score: 2, Informative

      I have moved from metric countries to the US, and have actually researched that issue. Turns out, that the US is implicitly metric!!! The "Customary US Units of Measurement" are defined by relating them to metric base units, e.g. 1 yd = 3 ft = 36 in = 36 in * 2.54 cm/in = 91.44 cm. Weights are similarly defined. The "implicit conversion" is based on bills passed in the early 70's

      --
      -- Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui
    7. Re:What about the pound? by Rostin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, a pound is sometimes both a mass and a weight. It's one of the stupider quirks of the customary system. When the distinction is important and not obvious from the context, pounds mass (lbm) or pounds force (lbf) is specified. The "conversion" between the two involves a constant, usually written as g-sub-c.

      lbf = lbm * (accel due to gravity) / g-sub-c

      constant = 32.174 lbm*ft*s^-2*lbf^-1

      That way, one lbm weighs very close to 1 lbf.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound-force

    8. Re:What about the pound? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      The pound is used as a unit of mass as well as a unit of force. One (mass)pound weighs one (force) pound at 1g. This can lead to some oddities. For example, specific impulse(e.g. of rocket fuel) is measured in Force produce per mass used per second. In metric, the units are N.s/kg. In Imperial (or English if you prefer) they're lb.s/lb. This gives a result in seconds.

    9. Re:What about the pound? by leonem · · Score: 1

      Is the stone a measurement of mass? I thought the Imperial mass measure was a 'slug'.

    10. Re:What about the pound? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OWN3D! Suck it, metric haters!

    11. Re:What about the pound? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly 100 pennies

    12. Re:What about the pound? by goodben · · Score: 1

      There are two systems of force and mass in "English" units.

      The first uses pounds for force (and weight) and slugs for mass. In this system a slug is the mass that accelerates by 1 ft/s^2 when one pound of force is exerted on it. A pound is the force exerted by one slug accelerating at 1 ft/s^2. (1 lb_f = 1 slug*ft/s^2)

      In the second, pounds is the unit of mass and poundal is the unit of force (and weight). The poundal is the force required to accelerate one pound 1 ft/s^2. The pound is the mass that accelerates 1 ft/s^2 under the force of 1 poundal. ( 1 lb_m = 1 pdl*ft/s^2)

      It works out that because the acceleration of gravity is about 32.174 ft/s^2 that 1 pound = 32.174 poundals (and change). 1 slug = 32.174 pounds.

      In practice a hybrid system is used where pounds are used for both and are designated pound-force and pound-mass to destinguish them. In this system a pound-force is the force required to accerate a pound-mass to the standard force of gravity (about 32.174 ft/s^2). A pound-mass is the mass with the force of one pound-force under standard gravity. In this hybrid system you have to introduce another constant into Newton's second law (F=m*a) due to the unit definitions in order to make acceleration a ratio of the acceleration of standard gravity, but it usually isn't too confusing.

      Stones, ounces, tons, etc. are all defined in terms of the pound. They are nominally weights (meaning they are multiples or fractions of the pound-force), but can be used as masses as well. For anything other than engineering loads, weights and masses are used interchangeably. All "English" units are nowadays defined in terms of metric units. 1 inch = 2.54 cm exactly.

      Incidetally, there is a metric version of these shennanigans where the kilopond (also known as kilogram-force) is the force of one kilogram under standard gravity, but it's hardly ever used (and is non-SI). The hyl or metric slug (used even more infrequently) is 1 kilopond*m/s^2. The SI (International System--standard abbreviation uses French initials) unit of force is the Newton (1 kg*m/s^2).

      As an additional gee whiz, there is an additional metric unit of force the dyne which is defined as 1 gram*cm/s^2. 1 Newton = 10^5 dyne. People mainly use the SI subset (also known as MKS--meter kilogram second) of the metric system, but the older CGS (centimeter gram second) is still used in some fields where it's more convenient. There was also a MTS system (Meter Tonne Second--where the metric tonne is 1000 kg) used in the Soviet Union.

      The relationship between the CGS system and SI is non-standard (i.e., you can't multiply the CGS unit by the same number to get the SI unit--although it is always a power of 10) which is somewhat annoying. There are also some odd-ball metric units like the calorie (heat required to raise 1 gram water 1 degree Celsius), the liter ( 1 decimeter cubed or the mass of 1 kg of water), and the Angstrom (10^-10 m) that are non-SI but sometimes used because they are more convenient or for historical reasons.

      The nice thing about SI is that it makes definitions easy to use and remember, but you sometimes end up with awkward units. The Farad (unit of capacitance) is extremely large. Most capacitors are in the picofarad (10^-12 F) to microfarad (10^-6 F) range. This is a Farad is defined as 1 s^4*A^2*m^-2*kg^-1 or 1 C/V (Coloumb/Volt).

  19. Why a Sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For all units of measure, we can communicate them in words. For distance, we use a wavelength of a certain pure type of light. For time, we use the oscilation of a certain element. For mass, we use a lump of metal. The difference is that if we wanted to (and were able to) have a conversation with an alien species, we could tell them about speed, distance, time, and every other term in physics. But, we would have to load the International Prototyle on a rocket and send it to them to convey mass.

    Now for the sphere, a previous poster wanted to know why a sphere. Two reasons. First, from the article, it has no edges to be damaged. Second, you know all about it if you know the substance and the diameter. The creation of the sphere is merely a means of ascertaining the dimension needed to define mass in words. Once that is done, the sphere itself will be little use except as a curiosity.

    -cliff

    1. Re:Why a Sphere by nani+popoki · · Score: 1

      So why not invoke relativity and define the kilogram to be the mass-equivalent of the energy contained in umpty-ump photons of some wavelength of light?

    2. Re:Why a Sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps because Relativity happens to be a theory, maybe a sound one, but certainly not as sound as actually counting real objects which possess themselves the very propriety which is relevant, such as atoms.

    3. Re:Why a Sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet that will become the definition some day. Maybe it does not lead to a easy to use standard yet.

  20. Optical kilogram? by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

    That's a lotta light!

    --
    Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
    1. Re:Optical kilogram? by nani+popoki · · Score: 1

      You're right, of course. Then again a kilogram is a lot of silicon atoms and a meter is a lot of wavelengths of Cs light. I wonder, though, if I haven't made a circular definition by this proposal. Or made the unit of mass a function of the definition of a second or something. Because the speed of light seems to show up already in both the definition for the unit of length and of time. Probably the most telling argument against my proposal, though might be the "hard to make one" argument: how will you tell that you've collected enough photons and what instrument do you use to calibrate your balance with? (Converting a measured kg of matter to energy to see how close your scale was seems like a hazzardous procedure!)

  21. isotopes by ArbitraryConstant · · Score: 1

    How do they account for different isotopes? Or do they just get a sphere that weighs the same as N many atoms of pure silicon 28 would weigh?

    --
    I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
    1. Re:isotopes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They assume that the isotopes follow the molar distribution found in nature; all three naturally occurring isotopes of silicon are stable. Given the narrow range of natural variation of all studied terrestrial samples of silicon, the margin of error introduced by this assumption is very small, probably smaller than that of other sources of error in assembling and measuring the crystal sphere.

      The major point is that it is no worse than (and probably much better than) duplicating the current prototype ingot in terms of probable error. Moreover, one can measure the radius and composition of one of these spheres with such accuracy that proving the mass of such a crystal is much easier than proving the mass of a duplicate ingot (which requires direct comparison using balances).

      It does not get us away from a prototype model, nor does it provide the precision of some of the other proposals for a new kilogram defintion, but it is a very practical and fairly substantial improvement over the current system.

    2. Re:isotopes by InadequateCamel · · Score: 1

      Considering that a kilo of Si will have over 10^22 atoms, the % distribution assumption should indeed be correct. Techniques such as mass spectrometry would ensure this was indeed the case to a certain degree of accuracy.

    3. Re:isotopes by Tom+Womack · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The 'special crystal which took three years to grow in Russia' that the article writes about is made of pure silicon-28 precisely to get around this objection.

      I think the concern is that samples of silicon from different sources (consider, for example, 'depleted silicon' from the scrapyard of the Russian isotope-enrichment facility) might have different isotope distributions at the 10^-7 level, whilst good laser enrichment can ensure a really very constant isotope distribution.

    4. Re:isotopes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given the narrow range of natural variation of all studied terrestrial samples of silicon
      Not narrow enough. The fourth digit of the composition fractions changes due to natural variations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_silicon
    5. Re:isotopes by ArbitraryConstant · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the informative reply.

      "I think the concern is that samples of silicon from different sources (consider, for example, 'depleted silicon' from the scrapyard of the Russian isotope-enrichment facility) might have different isotope distributions at the 10^-7 level"

      That was precisely my concern. I know that some isotope ratios are unpredictable in nature (eg, carbon dating something that ate food from the ocean can be inaccurate), so a good standard would eliminate that from the outset. As apparently it does.

      --
      I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
  22. Meanwhile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mother Horta is mighty pissed...

    1. Re:Meanwhile by boristdog · · Score: 1

      I can't believe an AC is the only one to mention the Horta!

      All the Trek geeks must be arguing over the poll question.

  23. Nuclear decay by pfortuny · · Score: 0

    and semidesintegration time, will they update the number of atoms?

    Just wondering.

    1. Re:Nuclear decay by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Silicon is radioactive now?

  24. Silicon has 14 electrons per atom by tepples · · Score: 2, Informative

    What I don't get is how they intend to build an exact number of atoms into the sphere. You would need some other exact measurement, like number of electrons for calculating precise electrolysis procedures. The number of electrons in a crystal equals the number of protons. But "silicon" is defined as the element with 14 protons per atom. So the number of electrons equals the number of atoms times 14.
    1. Re:Silicon has 14 electrons per atom by setagllib · · Score: 1

      For an electrolysis you need electrons that will be added to or removed from a material. For an example of electroplating, a metal that is in an ionic bond with another substance will form a layer on another metal if it is torn away from its bond. Since you know exactly how many electrons are needed to add to the metal so it can break the ionic bond, you know exactly how many atoms of that metal will be freed by that number of electrons. And that's what I mean by a precise measure for that reaction.

      --
      Sam ty sig.
  25. This is about measuring the Paris kilo by femto · · Score: 5, Informative

    The CSIRO project is about determining how many silicon atoms are equivalent in mass to the current standard kilogram. Once that number is established the actual kilogram in Paris is redundant. If it gets lost or destroyed we can reconstruct the kilogram by counting out 'n' silicon atoms. It also means anyone can construct their own kilogram by counting out 'n' silicon atoms, without having to go to Paris to do a comparison.

    It is a separate (but related) project to figure out the second part of the project: how to easily count out 'n' silicon atoms, so creating a universally available standard. One way might be to make a silicon sphere, like the CSIRO, but most people don't have the ability to do that.

    1. Re:This is about measuring the Paris kilo by smoker2 · · Score: 1

      The CSIRO project is about determining how many silicon atoms are equivalent in mass to the current standard kilogram. Once that number is established the actual kilogram in Paris is redundant. If it gets lost or destroyed we can reconstruct the kilogram by counting out 'n' silicon atoms. It also means anyone can construct their own kilogram by counting out 'n' silicon atoms, without having to go to Paris to do a comparison.
      Until the big one hits, and we no longer have instruments capable of counting atoms of silicon. Once again, we go for a more technological solution, and a less durable one. At least the reference kilogram in Paris is a physical object. They used to measure quantities with bells in china, another durable item, with a fixed reference - its tone. Future civilisations are going to have to work all this out for themselves (again) I fear.
    2. Re:This is about measuring the Paris kilo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your fears are unfounded. It is self limiting in that if we have the need for a certain precision in a quantity then our technology will also be up to constructing/measuring an object to that precision. No technology = no need for precision.

      If our technology is set back to the extent you fear it will be unnecessary to have a precisely defined kilogram. If necessary society can arbitrarily choose a new weight standard and try again. Markets in the middle ages didn't need to measure out potatoes to one part in billions.

    3. Re:This is about measuring the Paris kilo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The world is ending, we are doomed! I see the horsemen coming! Look out! Get the fuck back to your cave. E fucking G, I think we'll have bigger problems to deal with than the accuracy of a mass after the apocalypse. This shit is only needed for high tech applications. Get a fucking clue you idiot.

    4. Re:This is about measuring the Paris kilo by Matt+Perry · · Score: 1

      This is about measuring the Paris kilo
      I'll bet the Paris kilo is what will land her in prison the second time.
      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    5. Re:This is about measuring the Paris kilo by chochos · · Score: 1

      Oh man, that's just GREAT!!! I was scheduled to go for Paris to calibrate a scale and now my boss has cancelled the trip. DAMN!

  26. Calibration of reference weights by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

    I guess it would be used to calibrate a (limited by wear and tear, yes) number of "second generation" reference weights. Which would obviously not be quite as accurate, but still good enough to serve as reference to calibrate commercially weights and weighing machines.

    The great advantage of this approach is that you can reproduce the original reference weight if necessary, while the loss of the current prototype would mean a much bigger problem.

    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
  27. Perfectly spherical...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From TFA, "A spherical shape was chosen for the project because it has no edges that might be damaged..."

    That's all fine and good, but for God's sake don't drop it! Without having bothered to Google it, how malleable is silicon?

  28. perfect, well-rounded, bouncy by siddesu · · Score: 5, Funny

    silicon spheres will define the standard ... will they be coming in pairs by any chance?

    1. Re:perfect, well-rounded, bouncy by Sinbios · · Score: 2, Funny

      Silicon not silicone.

      --
      Anyone can "stand up for what they believe", but it takes a very brave individual to change what they believe. - Loundry
    2. Re:perfect, well-rounded, bouncy by glindsey · · Score: 1

      "Hey, baby, let me see your kilograms!"

      Nah... doesn't really roll off the tongue.

    3. Re:perfect, well-rounded, bouncy by siddesu · · Score: 1

      true, and the luscious bouncing spheres aren't always what they seem to be. :)

    4. Re:perfect, well-rounded, bouncy by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      Well, if Nicky Hilton goes to this vault with her sister, we've got *two* pairs right there. And lots of people have come in those pairs. Really, I can't see how keeping a sphere in Paris will keep it safe. It's going to keep being jostled about when the visitors come.

    5. Re:perfect, well-rounded, bouncy by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      Hey, maybe he has a Borg fetish.

    6. Re:perfect, well-rounded, bouncy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats *SILICON* you insensitive clod!

  29. KG? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many pounds is that?

  30. This also affects the pound by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    Of course you've already heard about this in the EU. Slashdot is a primarily US focused site, and as we all know the US is stuck with retarded imperial measurements. A U.S. pound is defined as exactly 0.45359237 kg, just as a foot is exactly 0.3048 m. Therefore, any changes to the kilogram's definition also affect that of the pound.
    1. Re:This also affects the pound by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      A U.S. pound is defined as exactly 0.45359237 kg, just as a foot is exactly 0.3048 m. Therefore, any changes to the kilogram's definition also affect that of the pound.

      This is nice and all, but the kilogram itself won't change from what we've considered it to be so far. This silicon sphere is there to represent with precision what the kilogram has been for decades. Therefore, none of this will have an impact on anything. It's not like we'll have a new kilogram that will be worth 1.000006186481846 old kilogram, 1 new kilogram = 1 old kilogram, period.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    2. Re:This also affects the pound by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Measuring error is universal--you will fundamentally never find a situation where 1 old kilogram = 1 new kilogram, because you can't measure something as "1 kilogram" full stop. That's the fundamental reason why this is such a big deal--if we could measure something as "1 kilogram" full stop, we could make hundreds of identical prototype kilograms using the one we have now. However, if the new kilogram is 1 kilogram, plus or minus 0.0000000001 kg, we can probably live with that for all practical purposes.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
  31. Insert random breast implant joke here. by JDark · · Score: 2, Funny

    Jenna Jameson do your part for science.

  32. Measurements by emj · · Score: 1

    an atom might have an diameter of about 0.1 nm, they say they have a perfect sphere which is just 35nm from being perfect, what ever that means. So you don't need that many positions of PI at all..

  33. Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Real men use pounds, anyway.

  34. SI horsepower by Bromskloss · · Score: 5, Funny

    One horsepower is the power of the reference horse in an archive in Paris.

    --
    Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
    1. Re:SI horsepower by Aneurysm · · Score: 1

      It's worth noting that the SI unit of horsepower has lowered significantly in the 120years the horse has been in the archive.

  35. Re:So we use a irrational number to define somethi by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

    No, we can just keep calculating it further and further until we get enough accuracy to get the correct number of atoms (since there will be an integer number of atoms, the inaccuracy will be lost in the rounding).

  36. Re:So we use a irrational number to define somethi by Goaway · · Score: 1

    Yes, the fact that we only know pi to a couple billion digits will certainly make this definition completely useless!

  37. A cold one. by iknownuttin · · Score: 1
    One problem with that is the density of water varies w/ the temperature (it's this characteristic which makes life on earth possible --- water gets more dense as it approaches the freezing point, then less dense when it freezes), so the definition has to include a temperature &c.

    That's why you use beer. I liter of cold beer will be one kilo. Actually you add one sip to compensate for the bubbles which as as a salt and therefore increase the density.

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
  38. single isotope by Tzinger · · Score: 3, Informative

    Standards for weights, mass, distance or any other measure, are critical in the calibration of instruments. This calibration provide the means that to compare product specifications and research results.

    This particular effort is a very interesting set of challenges. It requires the use of single isotope of silicon; calibrations for distance and roundness, and a sophisticated means to to count the atoms. This last step requires the silicon to be perfectly crystalline.

    Measurement is itself a very interesting study bordering on metaphysics and philosophy. The desire to measure things has been at the heart of a lot of scientific investigation, economics and other areas of study. Ref "Abstract Measurement Theory" by Louis Narens https://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp? ttype=2&tid=6345/

    --
    "If all the American people want is security, let them live in prisons." Eisenhower
    1. Re:single isotope by brokenbeaker · · Score: 1

      As far as I see it, there are two huge problems, and the FA did not touch on these at all.

      First, as you mention it, is the isotopes. Not all Si atoms have the same mass, and different natural samples have different distributions of the different isotopes. So even if you can count the number of Si atoms, you can't be sure of the mass. I know that the semiconductor industry working on single isotope chips, http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2000/C/ 200002512.html, but how "single" is that?

      Second, defects, in particular voids. If you have a perfect sphere, there is one configurational state. A SINGLE exlusion defect for a ~28 g sphere will have an Avagadro's number (~10^23) of possible configurations. So the question is, how easy is it to form defects? (very easy, because of the second Law of thermodynamics) So the question becomes, how many defects do you expect to have in a 1 kg sample of Si? Unfortunately, i've forgotten stat mech that lets me calculate that...

    2. Re:single isotope by Ahuitzotl · · Score: 1

      I was wondering about exactly that while reading this (the abstractness of measuring things) as I was thinking, they define a meter as the distance travelled by light in absolute vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second, well, how do we know how long a second is? Well thats defined as a certian number of times a cesium atom 'wobbles' between 2 different defined states which are defined by yet another measurement. How do we know that we have these measurements right? Don't the errors compound after awhile, since we are basing measurements on yet other measurements, that we may have got wrong? Are there any measurements that we can state with absolute certinty that we can base all our measurements on? Or are all measurements doomed to be based on prior measurements that we may or may not have done correctly? Does it all even matter in the scheme of things?

    3. Re:single isotope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're counting atoms anyway, it's no big deal to pass them through a mass spectrometer while you're at it. That can separate out the ones you want.

    4. Re:single isotope by CryoPenguin · · Score: 1

      Well thats defined as a certian number of times a cesium atom 'wobbles' between 2 different defined states which are defined by yet another measurement. How do we know that we have these measurements right?

      Atomic excitation levels are discrete. As long as our measurements are precise enough to distinguish the two levels, any error cascade stops there. Sure the calibration of a second depends on how precisely we can measure the excitations, but there's no error involved in what we're measuring.
  39. Molecular weights. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Should this redefinition of the kilogram result in the mass of a mol of any compound changing, the ramifications of this are huge throughout science and medicine. Hundreds of years of data and texts will be instantly rendered invalid. This is a really bad idea.

    I can tell you right now how many silicon atoms are in a kilogram ((1000/28.086)*(6.02214179*10^23) = 2.1441792316456597593106886*10^25), should that number be arbitrarily changed at any point we are pretty much fucked.

    So is this sphere going to be isotopically pure Silicon 28? (92.23% natural abundance) If not, then this idea is doubly retarded. Talk about government workers. Some people will go to any lengths to get government funding from the gullible and scientifically ignorant politicians.

    The Avogadro Project!?!? Surely he is rolling over in his grave!

    There are a number of ways to define the kilogram and Avogadro's Number according to physical constants, and this Aussie propsal is not one of them. In fact there are very strong arguments against using a sphere:

    Using a sphere precludes choosing an integer at all, because of the irrationality of pi.
    http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDet ail/assetid/54773?&print=yes
    Naturally, Avogadro's Number should be an integer.

    http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?na
    http://physics.nist.gov/News/TechBeat/9501beat.htm l
    http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/newsfromnist_be yond_the_kilogram.htm

    I do not trust this Australian approach at all.
  40. Exam by matt+me · · Score: 4, Funny

    Weird. I read about this in an exam I took last week. It stated that the present standard kilogram is a mass of platinum and iridium kept at STP underground, and asked what factors might affect the mass of the standard kilogram when it is measured. I answered if any isotopes of platinum or iridium decay, or if the standard kilogram had a velocity close to the speed of light.

    1. Re:Exam by ericferris · · Score: 1

      The only thing that could affect it is when precious metal thieves replace it with a wood block. At the rate metal is stolen in Europe, it could already have been swiped. We are at the point where highway signs are stolen and sold by the pound, sorry, the kilogram.

      --
      Fantasy: http://ferrisfantasy.blogspot.com/
  41. Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by hummassa · · Score: 4, Informative

    You are being very dense here.

    TODAY: 1kg = the mass of the "rusty lump" in Paris. We don't know how many atoms of Ir and Pt the "rusty lump" have. So, if the "rusty lump" changes mass (and it changes with time because of being rustier all the time) AND because the "rusty lump" is used to calibrate scales all over the world, the kilogram is effectively changing with time. This is BAD.

    WHAT THE GUYS ARE DOING: they are trying to make the most perfect silicon sphere possible that weights the same as the "rusty lump". Once they get to do that, they will count the atoms of silicon on the sphere, using interferometry. Suppose the # of atoms of the shpere is M.

    WHAT WILL WE GOT THEN: 1kg = M atoms of silicon. This definition will never change, and if the silicon spheres rust or break or change weight by any circunstances, we make new ones with M atoms and we have a forever-constant definition of a kilogram. This is GOOD.

    Got it? They did the a similar thing with the meter -- the original was a rod roughly 1m in size, then they did some measurements and said (*) "oh, one meter is the length that the light takes 1/299,792,458 of a second to go through in vacuum." and now they can do as many calibrating rods as needed, provided they make them the length that the light takes 1/299,792,458 of a second to go thru.

    (*) actually the meter had an intermediate definition of "1,650,763.73 wavelengths of the orange-red emission line in the electromagnetic spectrum of the krypton-86 atom in a vacuum", but the new definition has the advantage of setting the light speed at exactly 299,792,458 m/s.

    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
    1. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by Joe+Snipe · · Score: 1

      the new definition has the advantage of setting the light speed at exactly 299,792,458 m/s

      and that is important because that is what we have previously announced the speed of light to be? It seems like it would be better to set the speed of light at (arbitrary figures follow:) 100,000,000 m/s for ease of calculations; do you know why this isn't the case? (honest questions, no sarcasm implied)

      --
      Sometimes, life itself is sarcasm...
    2. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To keep backwards compatibility with the old platinum rod defined meter, duh.

    3. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by dm0527 · · Score: 1

      uh...because it doesn't move at 100,000,000 m/s possibly? I mean, I'm sure we'd like it all to come to nice multiples of 10, but it's not like there's a phone we can pick up and ask the universe to change the speed of light...scientists have this little foible that they all seem to want numbers to mean something and relate correctly to the observed universe. silly folk

      --
      - dm - The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
    4. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by Tribbin · · Score: 1

      So they have to define a meter

      Which is exactly 1/299,792,458 of a lightsecond in a vacuum.

      So they have to define a second.

      Which is exactly the time in which light travels 299,792,458 meters.

      So they have to define a meter

      Which is exactly 1/299,792,458 of a lightsecond in a vacuum.

      So they have to define a second.

      Which is exactly the time in which light travels 299,792,458 meters.

      ^C

      --
      If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
    5. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      uh...because it doesn't move at 100,000,000 m/s possibly? I mean, I'm sure we'd like it all to come to nice multiples of 10, but it's not like there's a phone we can pick up and ask the universe to change the speed of light...scientists have this little foible that they all seem to want numbers to mean something and relate correctly to the observed universe. silly folk

      I think he's suggesting a major change to what a metre is, rather than actually changing the speed of light.

    6. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 1

      You could define light to move at 100,000,000 m/s, 100,000 m/s, or 100 m/s, as long as you sufficiently redefine either the meter or the second. :)

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

    7. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Well I wonder why SI? is it because it is easy to measure the density of SI? or is it easy to make a sample with only a single isotope of SI?
      I would think that you would want to use least dense material you could from in a mono crystalline block. If your machining process is accurate to +-X then the bigger the sphere the more accurate it will be based by percentage.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    8. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by AlecC · · Score: 1

      The second is not defined n terms of the speed of light. The second is defined by a certain number of cycles of the light emitted by a particular transition of the caesium atom i.e. in a manner than can, in principle, be replicated anywhere in the universe. The objective of this is to define the unit of in terms of the mass of the silicon atom. The speed of light is them used to give you the unit of length, and all three fundamental units are defined in a way in which, for example, we could transmit them to an alien civilisation so we could talk meaningfully about physics.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    9. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by jZnat · · Score: 1

      Because using previous definitions of the metre, 299 792 458 m/s was the most accurate we could get for measuring the speed of light in a vacuum, so we redefined the metre to be based on that (easier to measure the amount of time that passes than the length of something; possibly has something to do with the uncertainty principal, but I don't know). With the new definition of the metre, it was basically the same amount of length, so all our measurements in metres in the past were still pretty much the same.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    10. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by painandgreed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      WHAT WILL WE GOT THEN: 1kg = M atoms of silicon. This definition will never change, and if the silicon spheres rust or break or change weight by any circunstances, we make new ones with M atoms and we have a forever-constant definition of a kilogram. This is GOOD.

      Yes, but which isotope of Si? Three occur in nature in various quanities. Did they use just a single isotope? If not, what are the various percentages?

    11. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) you mean 'what will we have then'
      b) you don't 'do' as many calibrating rods as you need, you 'make' them.

      Fuckwit

    12. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by Biff+Stu · · Score: 1

      It seems that the mass standard is still based on an aritfact. The only difference between this artifact and the existing lump of metal is that we have a better receipie to reproduce the artifact. In principle, if we know the dimensions of the existing Pt-IR standard, and the ratio of the elements and isotopes, we could do a pretty good job of recreating the lump of metal. Yes, we can do a better job of reproducing the Si artifact, but I just can't see manufacturing a macroscopic artifact with exactly N atoms of Si.

    13. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by jafac · · Score: 1

      What if your silicon contains a significant percentage of radioisotopes (as most matter does)?

      Then, over time, radioactive decay will change the mass, without changing the number of atoms, OR the chemical makeup.

      The isotopic makeup is a wildcard. Maybe not a significant one - but a wildcard, nonetheless.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    14. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      I guess we have more experience of making extremely pure silicon than any other substance.

    15. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Well I know that GE and Pratt and Whitney can make mono crystalline metals so I was thinking AL but I am not up on the number if isotopes and how hard it is to purify it.
      Of course the technical challenges of this are just huge. How do you deal with expansion due to heat when machining the sphere? What about warping of the sphere during machining? This is going to take a long time. They are not going to throw this on a mill and punch in a CNC program.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    16. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but which isotope of Si? Three occur in nature in various quanities. Did they use just a single isotope? If not, what are the various percentages?

      Do you *honestly* believe they haven't thought of that already? Seriously??

      And BTW, what is it with Slashdotters who think they're smarter than the average PhD? Do you really have that high an opinion of yourself?

      It just makes me realize how smart Douglas Adam's was when asked, if he could make anything in the world happen (ie, cure all disease, poverty, etc), what would it be, and the answer was: give everyone the ability to tell when someone else is smarter than them.

    17. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by cyclop · · Score: 1

      But once you know that N atoms of Si are 1 Kg, you won't ever need anymore the artifact. Just weigh one Si atom, and multiply N times, and you are done.

      --
      -- Patent no.123456: A way to personalize /. comments with a sig attached to the end.
    18. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      Thanks for clarifying. That more sense now.

    19. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by 808140 · · Score: 1

      First, I agree with what the sibling said. Don't overestimate your own intelligence. These guys don't get where they are by being stupid about something that an 8th grader would think of.



      Second, if you'd bothered to RTFA, you'd realize that they're using a special pure crystal in Russia was grown for exactly this purpose. Another moment of googling would have revealed the following, with emphasis added by me for your convenience, and small edits made because Slashcode doesn't support the <sup> and <sub> tags:

      One goal of the Avogadro Project, is to determine the quantity of the Avogadro constant with unprecedented accuracy. This would also give rise to a definition of the kilogramme, which is still embodied by a prototype, referenced to a fundamental constant. Measurements performed on silicon spheres with a natural isotopic composition did not allow relative uncertainties of less than 3 10^-7 to be achieved for the Avogadro constant. Therefore, it was decided to repeat the measurements with isotopically pure silicon. For this purpose, PTB coordinated a cooperation agreement between eight national metrology institutes, international research laboratories and Russian research institutions and industrial firms. The first result of this cooperation is the single-crystal now available. The crystal was a joint-production of the Central Office for Centrifuge Development of the Russian Nuclear Ministry in St. Petersburg (production and enrichment of SiF_4 gas), the Institute for Ultrapure Materials in Nishni-Novgorod (converting SiF_4 gas into SiH_4 gas, chemical purification and separation of a poly-crystal) and the Institute for Crystal Growth in Berlin (growing the Si single-crystal by means of zone purification procedures). The chemical purity required for further use of the material in producing the sphere was achieved after several float zone melting processes. At PTB, the impurity concentrations were determined by infrared spectrometry: carbon 3 10^15 cm^-3, oxygen 4 10^15 cm^-3 and boron 3 10^13 cm^-3. The content of more than 99.99% 28-Si in the crystal, determined at the Institute for Reference Materials and Measurements of the EU in Geel, was maintained through out the entire production process. This is an important prerequisite for successful measurements on a 28-Si sphere. The material required, a 5 kg crystal, will be delivered within schedule in 2006.



    20. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by Joe+Snipe · · Score: 1

      SO when the OP said "has the advantadge" he should have said "meets the prerequisite". Now I get it, thank you.

      --
      Sometimes, life itself is sarcasm...
    21. Re:Trying to be helpful -- do not flame please by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Second, if you'd bothered to RTFA...
      You must be new here.
  42. I can think of a better material. by frostilicus2 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'd prefer A non-perfect sphere of Silicone .

    --
    Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    1. Re:I can think of a better material. by stud9920 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'd prefer two.

  43. The british way. by ringman8567 · · Score: 1

    Defining mass buy by sherical objects is not new. The British Standard Apple has a mass of 102 grams. Thus under a standard gravity there is a force of 1 Newton.

  44. Avogrado by ShakaZ · · Score: 1

    As far as i can remember, in my physics or chemistry classes at school, 1Kg was always defined as a number of carbon-12 atoms... 1/12*1000*Na*atoms of C12. Looking it up on the net it seems to be project Avogrado. By the way first time i was given that definition at school was in the late 80's.

    1. Re:Avogrado by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      You got it backwards.

      The avogrado number is defined as the number of C12 in one kg. Not the other way round. If you look it up, you will see it to be known with much lower accuracy as the kg today.
      Thats because carbon isnt that suitable to be weighted (c14, activation of c12 by cosmic rays, ect).

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
  45. As of today, by hummassa · · Score: 1

    we don't know how many silicium atoms there are in one standard kilogram. The thing they are doing is to measure exactly that, so they can proclaim after: "1 kg is X silicium atoms."

    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
    1. Re:As of today, by jabuzz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wrong what we are trying to do is count the number of Si atoms in a sphere so we can say sphere X has a mass of Y, and then use the sphere to calibrate other masses. We already have a number for how many silicon atoms in a kilogram, and once we can count atoms precisely enough that preexisting number will be fixed.

  46. We are trying to escape that situation by hummassa · · Score: 1

    and it's not weight, is mass... but I digress... today, we do have an actual object defining what is 1kg of mass. We want to escape that, so we are doing the most perfect possible silicon sphere with 1kg of mass, we will count the number of silicon atoms on it, and we will proclaim that 1kg = the mass of X silicon atoms.

    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
  47. I WANT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    duddeee...I want one of those spheres! that looks so cool!! If I played with it, would it lose silicon atoms?? how well do atoms in a crystal of silicon hold together??

  48. By the way, It's not a sphere... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone, including the scientists are calling this 1 Kg object a "sphere", but nobody seems to realize that a sphere actually has no substantial volume to it. A sphere is just a concept (like a circle). What they are making is a BALL of silicon that weighs 1 Kg. A sphere can't weigh 1 Kg. Don't get me wrong, by describing a sphere, you are defining the radius and, therefore, you are describing a volume in 3 dimensions BUT you cannot call that physical ball of silicon a "sphere".

  49. The standard kilogram has been losing mass by ribuck · · Score: 3, Informative

    A new standard is needed because the "standard kilogram" held in France has been slowly losing mass, about 50 micrograms in the last 100 years, compared to other reference masses. It's not known how this has occurred.

    Wikipedia - Kilogram
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram

    Slashdot: The Changing Definition of 'Kilogram'
    http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/05/2 7/023252

    1. Re:The standard kilogram has been losing mass by camusflage · · Score: 1

      A new standard is needed because the "standard kilogram" held in France has been slowly losing mass, about 50 micrograms in the last 100 years, compared to other reference masses. It's not known how this has occurred.

      I've been stealing it. At $41,345.86 per kilogram, it's a lot more rewarding than stealing copper from electrical lines (and a lot less dangerous!) or stealing manhole covers. Sadly though, my 50g theft has only netted me 0.004 cents, but I'm in it for the long haul, baby!

      --
      The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
  50. So.....much.....pain........ by CFD339 · · Score: 1

    .....I can't possibly be the only alpha geek out there who immediately associates a perfect silicon sphere with this:

    http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~hwloidl/htg-all.html
    (see #48)

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  51. It should be a perfect cube by clickety6 · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...that way they'll be able to find it again after they put it down somewhere.

    "Zut alors! Pierre, le sphere parfait - ou est-ce que tu le placer?

    "C'etait sur le table, Jean-Claude"

    "Merde, il avait roller sous le sofa encore!"

    --
    ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
    1. Re:It should be a perfect cube by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This time, without typos:

      Zut alors, Pierre, la sphère parfaite, où l'as tu placée ?

      Elle était sur la table, Jean-Claude.

      Merde, elle a encore roulé sous le sofa !

      Merci pour votre attention, vous pouvez retourner à la lecture de /.

    2. Re:It should be a perfect cube by Meumeu · · Score: 1

      "Zut alors! Pierre, le sphere parfait - ou est-ce que tu le placer?

      "C'etait sur le table, Jean-Claude"

      "Merde, il avait roller sous le sofa encore!"

      I think you mean

      "Zut alors! Pierre, la sphère parfaite - où est-ce que tu l'as placée?

      "Elle était sur la table, Jean-Claude"

      "Merde, elle a encore roulé sous le sofa!"

    3. Re:It should be a perfect cube by clickety6 · · Score: 1

      It was Franglais :-)

      --
      ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
  52. Why sphere? by Nephrite · · Score: 1

    I wonder why they use a sphere. To me it seems more logical to use a silicon crystal of known dimensions. Crystals are guaranteed to have integer number of atom planes whereas sphere is somewhat diffuse on the edges.

    1. Re:Why sphere? by AlecC · · Score: 1

      Edges chip, as it says in TFA. As it is, the thing is "only" accurate to a few hundred atoms, so exact crystal boundaries don't matter. When they have another couple of orders of magnitude of accuracy, the suggestion you make may be sensible. For the moment, it is just a lot better than what has gone before.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
  53. Would you trust Austalians for that ? by boule75 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I mean, come on, would you Australians to define scientific standards? I won't!

    For starters, those guys believe the South is on the top and North is at the bottom of the maps! I feel upside down just thinking of it. And on which side of the road are they driving already? North or south? See: you cannot trust those guys!

    Second, the issue with "the" current "reference" in Paris (there are three cylinders in fact) is that is loses atoms sometimes, so its mass diminishes. I mean it is still The Kilogramme but the kilogramme is not what it was some years ago when the grass was greener and the boys were nice and, hum! Anyway, how would that be different with yet another physical object? Wouldn't it lose some random atoms from time to time?

    Third, it is well known that international standards are defined in Paris: the internationnal skirts lenght association, the general contest of retreat speed and the cheese-smelling index are all defined in my city and everybody agrees with that. M. Sarkozy has just battled staunchly with M. Puttin to assert our rights on those essential fields.

    Finally, I suspect that the kilogramme may be re-defined in October 2007 in Paris (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogramme): a meeting of the Bureau Internationnal des Poids et Mesures (BIPM, Internationnal Weights and Measures Bureau in French) is scheduled this year.

    Best kisses from Earth.

    --
    I am not Remy Mouton, unfortunately: http://remy.mouton.free.fr/art/
  54. Justin Wilson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cajun cook and comedian Justin Wilson told of a Cajun who sent his son to college. When the boy came home for spring break, the dad asked him "what ya larn in that college, boy?"

    The son thought for a minute and said "pi R square".

    The fathar had a fit. "Pie aren't square, pie are round. Cornbread are square!"

  55. So the standard unit of weight... by hcdejong · · Score: 1

    is going to be a crystal ball? Woo hoo!

  56. metric system.. by Destoo · · Score: 1

    Pffft! Metric system!

    The King had it right all along...
    C = 1'/ns
    the speed of light = 0.983571056 feet per nanosecond

    I'm sure we can come up with something similar for pounds and fahrenheit eventually.

    --
    Nouvelles de jeux et technologies en français. TC
  57. Accuracy by Jeppe+Utzon · · Score: 1

    Estimating the diameter of the spehere in the picture to around 12 cm and assuming the final spehere is the same approximate size: If the final sphere was magnified to the size of the earth, it would have surface variation of 9.5 cm in altitude. Pretty slick - although I bet that within a week at least one american will find a way to trip and sue them into oblivion.

  58. OR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...or, if the person watching the standard kilogram of precious metal is Jewish.

    "MR. GOLDSTEIN!!! For the LAST TIME, it was NEVER the standard '374 grams'!!"

  59. Too complicated! by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Interesting
    We've got a precise definition of the second:

    the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.
    and the meter:

    the distance traveled by light in absolute vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second
    Why not tie the kg to the second and meter via the Newton? 1 Newton is defined as 1 kg * m * s^-2. Using centripetal force in a plane normal to the earth's gravitational field eliminates gravity from the equation.
    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    1. Re:Too complicated! by salzbrot · · Score: 1

      Great idea. But unfortunately they misplaced the standard Newton in Paris.

    2. Re:Too complicated! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A Newton has units of (Kg*m)/(s^2), kilogram-meter per second squared.

      Even if you did eliminate the m/(s^2) (acceleration, in this case, gravity of earth), you're then left with a mass and something else.

      The fact of the matter is that the Newton is based on the gram, or, 1000 grams. You can't just say; "Oh, lets reverse that," because then the original inaccuracy of the gram remains.

    3. Re:Too complicated! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because centripetal force depends on the mass of the object that is spinning. Come up with a way to generate 1 N without requiring a specific mass somewhere in your experiment, and we can start talking.

    4. Re:Too complicated! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you accurately measure 1 N? What natural phenomenon produces 1 N to use as an accurate reference?

      seem to me having a 1 kg reference mass would be ideal for measuring Newtons, but not the other way around.

    5. Re:Too complicated! by smithmc · · Score: 1

        Why not tie the kg to the second and meter via the Newton? 1 Newton is defined as 1 kg * m * s^-2. Using centripetal force in a plane normal to the earth's gravitational field eliminates gravity from the equation.

      Riiight. 'Cause we all know that the Earth's gravitational field is totally perfectly uniform, and never ever changes.

      --
      Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
    6. Re:Too complicated! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you accurately measure 1 N? What natural phenomenon produces 1 N to use as an accurate reference?

      The ampere is that constant current which, if maintained in two straight parallel conductors of infinite length, of negligible circular cross section, and placed 1 meter apart in vacuum, would produce between these conductors a force equal to 2×10-7 newton per meter of length.[1] -from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere
    7. Re:Too complicated! by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1
      The attraction of using centripetal force is that over a small area, you can design a (very nearly) perfectly uniform gravitational field. Note that the strength of the field need not be any exact value, just uniform.


      My original thought was that by setting the velocity of the mass to exactly 1 m/s and and the length of the string to exactly 1 m you'd be left with the definition of a kg. It seems that what you're left with is 1 N.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  60. it all makes sense by euice · · Score: 1

    Currently the kilogram is defined by the "lump in paris". As some the previous posters already pointed out this is a Bad Thing (tm).
    Better would be to say the kilogram is the mass of n atoms of y. Problem is: how many atoms has one kg of y?
    Actually you have to count them, and one good way to count it is to use a crystal with a well understood structure.
    You simply grow a near perfect crystal, measure the size and you can calculate the number of atoms. That's what they build these silicon (=crystal) spheres for.
    Now they just have to get the precision at least as good as the current definition (which means they have to be 10 times as precise), so noone will not notice the switch of the two definitions, and we don't need that "lump" in paris anymore.

    1. Re:it all makes sense by newnerdyuser · · Score: 1

      Does this mean that every scale in the world (excluding those "morons" that still use imperial measurement - America, UK, etc) will need to be recalibrated? Then again I doubt any of the scales at butchers or green grocers have ever been calibrated.

      Though take the word Kilogram, gram is the base unit, so why not work on that? My guess is that it is probably too small and not impressive enough to look at.

    2. Re:it all makes sense by euice · · Score: 1

      If the new scale is more precise than the old one, nothing has to be recalibrated. That's why they are trying to build a near perfect sphere of a near perfect crystal, so they can count the atoms very accurate and then compare the mass to the original kilogram standard in paris.

      If they can do that with a precision higher (or at least as high) as the current kilogram calibration method, all old measurements remain perfectly valid, though the new measurements can be more precise.

      Nowadays they take the kilogram out of the vault every 5 years (or something) and then compare it to national kilogram standards. These then again get compared to other kilograms, which then will be used to calibrate all the measurement devices.

      The problem is, that a whole lot of units depend on the kilogram, so they also depend one the precision of the kilogram standard. But that kilogram standard is not precise, maybe it collects some dust, or loses some atoms over time, don't even think of touching it with your bare hands!

      A kilogram standard based on natures constants that can be reproduced everywhere with different methods will be a great improvement! But to be widely accepted it has to be at least as precise as the current method and it has to be confirmed by at least two different measurement approaches. The atom counting approach is just one of a few competing efforts, but the most accurate so far.

  61. Re: Using the Sphere of One-ness by Migraineman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Worse - you can't touch the Sphere of One-ness with anything.

    Q: May I put my greasy paws on it?
    A: No. Fingerprints will alter the mass in a measureable way.

    Q: White gloves?
    A: Abrasive.

    Q: Use a special cradle that's machined to exactly the same radius profile such that you won't scratch or deform the Sphere of One-ness?
    A: Nope. That'll result in a molecular interference fit. You'll never get the two pieces apart.

    So ultimately, they're building a very precise bauble that no one will ever be allowed to touch. I suspect that bouncing photons off the surface may displace an atom or two, so they'll keep it in a dark room ... in a vacuum chamber ... at the bottom of a flight of stairs, in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door reading "prendre garde du léopard."

  62. Nope by geekoid · · Score: 1

    0.454 kg is defined as exactly 1 pound. ;)

    we would be completly metric for year now if Reagan hadn't killed it. Yet another reason to pee on his grave.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  63. Not so Dumb by Morosoph · · Score: 1
    A superconducting ring has a quantised magnetic field, since the wavefuction describing the movement of electrons around the ring needs to "match up". Applying sufficient field to change the field appears to be enough to disrupt superconduction. Thus, although you need a ballpark figure for the mass (so that the nearest integer is the right one), this method can refine the mass to the correct value, subject to measurement accuracy.

    This example of the quantising effect of a superconducting ring is given early in Carver Mead's fairly straightforward text, Collective Electrodynamics.

  64. Sick Fantasy by Lurker2288 · · Score: 1

    I know this is kind of weird...but I've always fantasized abotu sneaking into that vault in Paris and filing a little bit off the kilogram mass standard. And maybe just trimming down the end of the meter stick a bit. On some level I feel like if you could do this, the world would be plunged into chaos within a few weeks.

  65. No kill I by berbo · · Score: 1

    Please don't hurt the Horta!

  66. Never trust the scales in Miami by monkeyboythom · · Score: 1

    I swear, those guys down there weigh my kilos short every time.

  67. Re:So we use a irrational number to define somethi by Zaiff+Urgulbunger · · Score: 1

    (since there will be an integer number of atoms, the inaccuracy will be lost in the rounding)

    We split the atom years and years ago, so thats not a problem; we'll just have a load of half/quarter/eigth atoms around the edge. In fact, there's probably a load of spare atom parts lying around somewhere that could be used for just such a purpose! :D

  68. You dont get it by imsabbel · · Score: 1

    There IS NO exact Kg. Its only defined to a value with a limited number of digits.

    Lets say the current kg is exact on 9 digits.
    If you have any new definition, which has more digits (for example 22, as in the number of silicon atoms in one kg), it wont be the same number.
    Of course its not, as its more accurate.
    The new definition will be a NEW value for the kg, which is more precise, and within the uncertaincy of the old definition.

    Thats the same way like when they changed the meter. It actually shrunk a few parts of Angström during the redefinition, but it didnt matter, as it wasnt reproducable to that extend before.

    --
    HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
  69. But the real question is... by SixArmedJesus · · Score: 2, Funny

    Does it look and feel like the real thing? /Sili-what? oh.

    --

    *slight crashing sound*
  70. If you know the no. of atoms, you can grow another by tentimestwenty · · Score: 1

    The point of this is to figure out the exact number of atoms in 1KG. Even if the sphere gets damaged, they should theoretically be able to check it for the number of atoms or just grow another using the same procedure.

  71. The Perfect Sphere by egyptiankarim · · Score: 2, Funny

    They should be careful with this thing. I heard that if you go inside it, it will give you the ability to manifest your thoughts into reality! Usually situations like that just end up with giant squids attacking your underwater science labs.

    --
    Eek!
  72. Repercussions by Tabernaque86 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they redefine the kilogram, what happens to coefficients that rely on kilograms? For example, for the equation for Universal Gravitational Energy [G=(coefficient)(m1xm2)/d^2)], is the coefficient going to change?

  73. kilo binary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WARNING: 1 kibigram = 1024 grams

  74. How many spheres? by be951 · · Score: 1

    I've seen a number of perfect spheres of silicone, and they typically come in pairs.

  75. Why a (perfect) sphere? by VincenzoRomano · · Score: 1

    As the silicon has a cace-centered cubic crystal structure, a sphere could not be the perfect shape.

    --
    Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
    For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
    1. Re:Why a (perfect) sphere? by Neuticle · · Score: 1

      The article or a previous post said it was spherical to avoid corners and edges that may be damaged by handling, but you do bring up an interesting point:

      Trying to make a "perfect sphere" without any corners out of a crystal structure that is inherently non-spherical will create (way more than billions- brazillions) of corners in the crystal structure. It's like trying to build a Death Star out of rectangular lego pieces, it will never be "perfectly round" /geek

      So what is the trade-off between this and the simple & precise 12 edges and flat sides of a cube? It seems to me a cube would be easer to accurately fabricate. How brittle is metallic silicon? Is it prone to deforming, shearing along crystal lattice lines? Anyone in material sciences or something or other know more about this?

      This is all assuming they had a better reason than "Ph33R 0Ur P3rfekt 5ph33R!!1!one!1"

      --
      "Cheeze it!" - Bender
  76. Circular definition of kilo? by VincenzoRomano · · Score: 1

    The weight has been defined upon a lump of platinum since 19th century.
    Atomic weight is ... weight so it depends upon that lump.
    They will count the number of atoms in the sphere and will multiply it by the atomic weight of silicon.
    The weight of the silicon ball will be correct if and only if is will weight the same as the platinum lump, not just because the number of atoms has been precisely defined.
    I would prefer to stay with the platinum lump: less hassle!

    --
    Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
    For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
  77. and here i was by rubberbandball · · Score: 1

    expecting something Tiffany Towers related. now_those_are perfect silicone spheres.

    --
    oh marmalade.
  78. Lightning by Tribbin · · Score: 1

    When you see the flash you count 'till there is the thunder.

    When you take the number you counted and devide it by the distant of the thunder; you know exactly how fast you have counted.

    --
    If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
  79. Re: Using the Sphere of One-ness by gardyloo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Haha. Love the Douglas Adams reference. Such a lead-in, too!

        Seriously, though, photons of anywhere near visible frequencies won't displace the atoms; light bouncing is almost always a purely electronic transition thing. And if this thing is ultrapure silicon, atoms are NOT going to want to displace. No worries there.

  80. The Perfect Sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oops... umm..

    Boss, I think I just dropped the.. perfect sphere...

  81. chotchke by ObjetDart · · Score: 1

    All I know is that thing would make one hell of a bitchin paperweight. I totally want one.

    --
    I read Usenet for the articles.
  82. the problem is pi by kpoole55 · · Score: 1

    yuo have a sphere that is exceedingly round. They been very careful to make certain it is very precise but to calculate the volume of the sphere don't you depend on a transcendental number call Pi that can be calculated out to so many places but hasn't an end so you're end result for the volume of the thing is going the depend on how namy digits of Pi you decide to bring into the equation. How many digits along do you need to go to reach the point where one more digit of pi results in one half an atom's worth of volume?

  83. Prediction by AlecC · · Score: 1

    This is the most perfect crystal ball ever! We can see the future better than ever before!

    --
    Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
  84. Ah good sir, you just bought this pack of meat... by thrill12 · · Score: 1

    ... which weighs 1 Kg. But, alas, the new weight of Kg has been introduced yesterday, so I am afraid that the 1 Kg will now cost you 20% more.

    Yes, you heard that right: for the new Kg is 20% more than the old one ! Don't you just love redefining the metric system ? ;=)

    --
    Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
  85. Why not just define Avagadro's number? by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Figure out how many atoms of carbon-12 are really in a kilogram, and fix Avagadro's number accordingly so 1 mole of carbon 12 had a mass of exactly 12 kilograms.

    Use as many significant digits as you need so the current "standard" kilogram is within the margin of measurement error and zero-fill the rest of the number.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  86. Confused. by Baavgai · · Score: 1

    > bringing the kilogram into line with other base units such as the metre and the second, which are all defined by physical constants...

    One cubic centemeter of H2O is one gram, right? If a "metre" is based on a physical constant and a gram can be derived from it using a physical constant (the mass of water), what's the point of playing with the disco ball thingy?

  87. The only perfect silicon sphere by krygny · · Score: 1

    ... I've ever seen is a Horta egg.

    --
    Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
  88. overpriced... by sjs132 · · Score: 1

    Personally, I think years of waiting for the right material and special grinding is a waste of money... I could of pointed them in the right direction if they only had asked. Here, looking for YOUR OWN silicon sphere:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Siaz-SILICON-CRYSTAL-SPHERE-SP ACE-HI-TECH-BALL-2-D_W0QQitemZ260110751261QQihZ016 QQcategoryZ3225QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewIt em

    PS.. This is not my auction, I just KNEW it must exist on ebay if someone needed it. :)

    --
    --- Relax, that mass muderer is just trying to reduce our carbon footprint, one fetus at a time...
  89. Re: Using the Sphere of One-ness by xebra · · Score: 1

    Molecular interference fit? I should say something smarmy about people who do a poor job at feigning knowledge and expertise, but since there's no Wikipedia article on the phenomenon I'll let it slide. What you are talking about is optical contacting, and has nothing to do with molecular interference. (I'm not even sure what that means in this context.)

  90. Not a perfect sphere by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    It's not a perfect sphere. If you zoom in really really close, it's got the jaggies.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  91. Just make it equal 2 pounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that's all I'm going to do when I convert it anyway.

  92. Cool! by Alari · · Score: 1

    I'm glad to hear they're making progress on it, this is something I've been looking forward to for a while. ... Yes, really. =) No, I'm not being sarcastic... =(

    Slightly OT: Just read up on metric/imperial systems recently, apparently the only ones still really using Imperial are the US, Burma, and Liberia. Oh yeah that's a great crowd... Maybe, once the new measure passes muster, we can finally extricate ourselves from the "axis of incompetence". Or we could go on trying to figure out how many king's big toes are in a furlong...

    --
    I use Windows... like a two dollar wh.. why don't I just go ahead and not finish that sentence.
  93. Where's the photographer? by TropicalCoder · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The picture shows a beautiful shot of the perfect silicon sphere. Out of curiosity, I looked very closly at the scene reflected by it's surface, thinking perhaps I might get a glimpse of the photographer. However, he was nowhere to be seen.

    Then I got to thinking - it should be easy to reconstruct the scene that is portrayed in the reflection from the surface of the sphere. All that is needed is to cut out the image of the silicon sphere and paste onto the surface of a three dimensional sphere. Then we could rotate it this way and that and look around the scientist's lab. So I did this - using a software simulation. I cut out the silicon sphere from the article's photo, and used it as a texture on a spherical 3D mesh, and added a little code to rotate it back and forth so that I could look around the scientist's lab. Guess what - there is no sign of the photographer! What we see is a very messy lab, with a closed door on the right. There are florescent fixtures on the ceiling that are currently turned off. There is a large window at the end of the room. I do believe that the ceiling, though it meets the left wall at the usual 90 degree angle, curves down to the wall at the right - a very unusual space, as if it was crammed into to an attic. At the extreme right of the room I believe we see a curtain hastily thrown over whatever would have been on the right side of the view. If the photographer is in the room, as he must be, I think he must be kneeling to the left of the window about three-quarters of the way back, and using a telephoto lens.

    I have made available the exe that I created on my web site so that you may take a look for yourself. The code is a hasty adaptation of Microsoft's DX3D mesh tutorial "Tut_06Meshes" from the DxSDK 9.0, which is also included. You can get the zip package here. Perhaps you could modify the code to produce an even better view, but unfortunately, the resolution of the original image is really too low to get much out of it. It was a lot of fun doing this, and if you come up with a better result than me I would like to hear from you.

    1. Re:Where's the photographer? by TropicalCoder · · Score: 1

      Ah... The bright square at the end of the room is not a window - rather, it is the photographer's light box he is using to illuminate the scene. Then I was right - the photographer himself is kneeling to the left of it. I just sent an email to the author of the article, asking about the scene reflected in the silicon sphere. Let us see if he replies with some information

    2. Re:Where's the photographer? by JuliaNZ · · Score: 1

      Nice work, that's very cool! It looks to me as if the photographer is wearing dark clothes and sitting just to the left (from our point of view) of the white rectangle that I assume is the camera flash. Presumably the camera is on a tripod.

  94. But a sphere is round... by HeavenlyWhistler · · Score: 1

    But a sphere is round, so how do you keep it from rolling off the scale when you are trying to weigh it?

    1. Re:But a sphere is round... by MLease · · Score: 1

      Obviously, they use a scale which has a concave weighing pan. Sheesh, do I have to explain everything?!?? ;)

      -Mike

      --
      I'm sorry; I don't know what I was thinking!
  95. mmmmmmmm! peanut butter 'n' pasgetti (n/t) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    n/t

  96. Thank you by p3d0 · · Score: 1

    This is the best explanation in this whole discussion.

    --
    Patrick Doyle
    I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
  97. from TFA by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

    A spherical shape was chosen for the project because it has no edges that might be damaged,

    because

    After the completion of the spheres, the silicon objects will be sent around the world to be measured and analyzed by scientists.

    In other words they want to show off their skillz and know some RA or post doc is going to be messing with it.

    and the volume can be calculated by using its diameter.

    Which is really useful I mean knowing the solids never expand or contract with temperature.

    --
    If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
  98. Re: Using the Sphere of One-ness by Sparohok · · Score: 1

    So, just because you can't find something on Wikipedia you're willing to impugn someone's knowledge and intellectual honesty?

    Incidentally, Wikipedia does have an entry for "interference fit". You incorrectly parsed "molecular interference fit" as "molecular interference fit" rather than "molecular interference fit."

    For the record I have no idea whether such a phenomenon actually exists but it sounds plausible enough to me that I'm not going to denounce it without doing more than a Wikipedia search.

  99. Know a guy who knows a guy by Joebert · · Score: 1

    I know a guy that could get them a perfect kilo, seriously, this guy used to eyeball perfect quarter ounces with one eye closed !

    --
    Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
  100. It's a damn shame... by notnAP · · Score: 1

    ...my fellow countrymen will never accept the kilogram as a unit of measure until it is redefined as being equal to 16 oz.

  101. Relativity! by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

    At the risk of being pedantic, where did you put your referential, and why?

  102. Yep by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

    All the other basic measurement units where redefined this way at the XX century. Only the kilogram is a troublemaker.

  103. Re: Using the Sphere of One-ness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IAAM (I am a machinist), and interference fit is a common term/practice in machining, and is as the wikipedia entry describes.

    There are varying degrees of interference that are often specified by the engineer's drawings - often it is enough to "press fit" two parts together by a hammer or hydraulic means, while a particularily tight fit might involve a torch or an oven on the part containing the hole and a freezer on the shaft being put through the hole.

    Sometimes cutting tools will have an interference fit into the toolholder using an oven, if ultra precise concentricity is required for a milling operation. (when collets or chucks have too much runout)

  104. Titles by XNormal · · Score: 1

    Article title: "Perfect silicon sphere to redefine the kilogram!"
    Slashdot summary: "This will replace the International Prototype!"

    Actual content of article: "...could help pave the way..."

    Some day. Maybe. Unless one of the other alternatives (watt balance, ion counting, etc) is chosen.

    --
    Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
  105. Good point, bad lead-up by Zinho · · Score: 1

    You make a great point about the use of water creating a circular reference (honestly, that was brilliant!), but don't discount the meter reference. Believe it or not, that standard was chosen because it made it easy to reproduce. Further (if I recall correctly), since the meter and the second are both related to the light emission properties of cesium, a competent physicist should be able to inexpensively reproduce either or both with things he already has around the lab. A sample of cesium, a handful of electronics no more complex than a microwave transmitter, an interferometer for the meter, and a mass spectrometer* for the second would do the job. Simple to understand, reproducible with techniques already in common practice (interferometry and mass spectroscopy), inexpensive to build - really, it's a much better standard than it seems at first reading.

    *For the standards cognoscenti in the audience, I know that modern second standards don't use mass spectrometers. It would do the job, though, and most physicists have access to one in a pinch.

    --
    "Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
  106. Re:alternate mass theories by Einstein's+Bees · · Score: 1

    In orbir you ARE weightless. Just as you are in a free-falling elevator.
        But you have mass. And this will transpose into weight when you, ummm.. decelerate at the bottom of the shaft.

    --
    - Ze Laws ov Termodynamics? BAH!
    Kelvin vas a fool!
    Mit Hydrogen + Pinoqachole ve can break zes laws anytime!