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Terabyte Hard Drive Put To the Test

EconolineCrush writes "As a technical milestone, Hitachi's Deskstar 7K1000 hard drive is undeniably impressive. The drive is the first to pack a trillion bytes into a standard 3.5" form factor, and while some may argue the merits of tebi versus tera, that's still an astounding accomplishment. Hitachi also outfitted the drive with 32MB of cache—double what you get with standard desktop drives—making this latest Deskstar a leader in both cache size and total capacity. That looks like a great formula for success on paper, but how does it pan out in the real world? The Tech Report has tested the 7K1000's performance, noise levels, and power consumption against 18 other drives to find out, with surprising results."

376 comments

  1. Test? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now, my porn collection, THAT is what would put this drive to the test.

    1. Re:Test? by Hydryad · · Score: 5, Funny

      Why am I not surprised at all that porn is the third word in the comments about a terabyte hard drive. Pushing forward innovation since the dawn of time, hot steamy sex.

      --
      No sig for you, two weeks!
    2. Re:Test? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Pushing forward.... and back... and forward.... and back....

    3. Re:Test? by clonmult · · Score: 1

      You forgot sideways.

  2. kanashhk shhk shhk by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 5, Funny

    ge ge ge kanashhk shhk shhk fzzke kek shhk shhk

    I love the sound of head crashes in the morning. Smells like... a coffee break.

    1. Re:kanashhk shhk shhk by Sensible+Clod · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's no moon, it's a hard drive!

      --

      The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
    2. Re:kanashhk shhk shhk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Thats no moon - thats yo mama

    3. Re:kanashhk shhk shhk by david.given · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hitachi_Hard-Drive_Project_-_Noriko_Version.mp3

      Written by James Postlethwaite, whose home page I can't find, and made entirely out of hard drive failure noises (Hitachi provide a nice set of wavs).

  3. RAID 5 Please by FF8Jake · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm not losing my 1.5TB of porn to a single Hitachi Deathstar.

    1. Re:RAID 5 Please by tibike77 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Only 1.5 TB of porn ? That's like what, 350 DVDs worth ?

      That's 85-125 USD for your entire collection in one single copy.
      Or make that a nice round 200$ for two sets of copies.
      So, where can I get two 1.5 TB HDDs for 100$ each ?

      Sure, the "seek time" would suck, but then again who cares, it's porn, not like you'll die if you wait 15 more seconds before you start looking at it... or are you ?

      --
      By reading this signature you agree to not disagree with the post you just read.
    2. Re:RAID 5 Please by Applekid · · Score: 5, Funny

      Only 1.5 TB of porn ? That's like what, 350 DVDs worth ? But how would we hide 350 DVDs from our parents?
      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    3. Re:RAID 5 Please by biocute · · Score: 1, Funny

      not like you'll die if you wait 15 more seconds before you start looking at it

      Yeah but who would still watch it after coming within 5 seconds?

    4. Re:RAID 5 Please by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      To paraphrase Jason Lee in "Chasing Amy" (when asked why he brought so much porn for a short trip): "Variety is the spice of life, my friend."

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    5. Re:RAID 5 Please by jridley · · Score: 1

      Only 1.5 TB of porn ? That's like what, 350 DVDs worth ?

      Yeah really. Get out the RAID controller and a few of these to hold the WHOLE collection.

      Hmm, entire collection, set on shuffle play, playing 30 randomly choosen seconds of video at a time...

    6. Re:RAID 5 Please by TurboStar · · Score: 4, Funny

      But how would we hide 350 DVDs from our parents?

      You have an entire basement. Look around, I'm sure you'll find somewhere.
  4. Data loss by B5_geek · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I feel bad enough when one of my 500GB drives goes tits up, I would hate to loose that much data on one drive.

    But on the other hand, a full-tower case loaded with those in a raid5 is enough to make me drool.

    --
    "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
    1. Re:Data loss by ipooptoomuch · · Score: 5, Funny

      500GB of data loss?!? I CRIED for a half hour over a filled 160GB drive after it got killed by an electrical storm. Even though it wasn't technically covered under warranty, the fine folks at best buy still took it back after I said a defective flux capacitor on the drive started it on fire.

    2. Re:Data loss by jimicus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      RAID 1+0 is the way to go for redundancy. Unless you're unlucky enough to lose both drives in one of the pairs making up the array, you can survive more than one drive failing.

      It's also the way to go for speed - your controller doesn't have to calculate the parity bits for every write operation (yes I know the parity sum is simple - that doesn't stop it from adding a bottleneck).

      RAID5 is most useful where:

      1. You desperately need the space.
      AND
      2. You can't afford the drives (or, for that matter, power/larger RAID controller) required to acheive the same space in RAID 1+0.

    3. Re:Data loss by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      The same way you'd loose horses or loose the dogs of war. Well, figuratively, of course.

    4. Re:Data loss by ozmanjusri · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      The same way you'd loose horses or loose the dogs of war.

      You're suposed to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.

      Are these drives belt-driven?

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    5. Re:Data loss by blackicye · · Score: 4, Informative

      BTW: Turn off S.M.A.R.T. This is like the indication of an ink cartridge: When the maker thinks you need a new
      drive.


      In my experience, when S.M.A.R.T. tells you a drive is dead or dying, its not kidding.
    6. Re:Data loss by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I hear all of these stories of people having drives go bad, I don't understand it. I've owned hard drives since about 1981, I've gone through dozens, replacing them as they become obsolete and too small, and I have yet to have one fail on me - except the one I accidentally launched across a room. And even that one I managed to get most of the data off of.

      What are people doing with drives to make them fail?

      --
      This space available.
    7. Re:Data loss by Ex-MislTech · · Score: 3, Informative

      Some problems with RAID 1+0:

      Not all hardware controllers will allow you to do a reconstruct to add more
      space and extend the partitions later on RAID 10 or 1+0.

      Recovering from a failed 1+0 is ok if it is a "simple" failure.

      I have had better luck recovering RAID5's than 10's or 1+0's.

      --
      google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
    8. Re:Data loss by xtracto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, I've got to agree with you. I think that is one of the worst advices I have read on slashdot... A hard disk died on me a month after the S.M.A.R.T. thing started to annoy... it was on a laptop. Fortunately, I bought a bigger driver and passed all the information before the defective drive went dead.

      While I agree that the S.M.A.R.T. heuristics might be a bit sensitive but if you consider what is at stake (yeah... your valuable pr0n collection), then I guess its better safe than sorry.

      And, comparing it to the ink cartdriges? I am sure *your life* (or work...) does not depend on printing or not that pr0n picture...

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    9. Re:Data loss by Eivind · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's nonsense. It isn't even true in theory. (at some point the remaining charge is below the noise-floor) If it wasn't you could store an infinite amount of data on a drive by simply filling it once with dataset1, overwrite by dataset2, overwrite by dataset3 and so on. You claim dataset1 will always be recoverable, so in this method, you could recover each of the sets and have stored triple amounts of data on the drive. You claim *any* amount of overwriting will be insufficient, so I guess I can store 1000 datasets on the drive then. Cool. Hint: The real world doesn't work like that

      Secondly, even if in theory you where rigth (which you aren't), in *practice* most data is not valuable enough that theres much real risk that anyone will recover it, even after something as simple as a one-time-all-nulls overwrite. (which is just about the suckiest overwrite you can do) Yes, in that case an expert lab *can* recover it, but odds are it won't happen.

      In practice, if you do the standard wipe, which is usually some variant of all-nulls, all ones, 3 times random, there is -zip- chance that anyone will be able to get at the data that was once on the platter.

      Now, what many (clueless people) do are "format" the drive or "delete" the files. These functions don't overwrite even once 99% of the platter, so files removed in this manner are certainly recoverable -- they're there in plaintext, just not referenced from the filesystem anymore. Something as simple as "cat /dev/hda | strings" will recover huge amounts of text from a hard-drive which has been erased in this manner.

    10. Re:Data loss by Forge · · Score: 1

      You *SAID* "flux capacitor"?

      --
      --= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
    11. Re:Data loss by MrNaz · · Score: 5, Funny

      You really, really need to buy a lottery ticket.

      --
      I hate printers.
    12. Re:Data loss by Phil+John · · Score: 1

      Not tempting fate, that's for sure ;o)

      --
      I am NaN
    13. Re:Data loss by subreality · · Score: 1

      RAID 1+0 is the way to go for redundancy. Unless you're unlucky enough to lose both drives in one of the pairs making up the array, you can survive more than one drive failing. Actually, RAID 6 is preferable these days. It'll allow you to fail ANY two drives without data loss.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_RAID_levels# RAID_6

      The performance tradeoffs are different from RAID 1+0 of course.
    14. Re:Data loss by the_tsi · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      These pretzels are making me thirsty!

    15. Re:Data loss by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's best buy, He could have started talking about temporal distortions in the space time continuum in the same process and they would have looked at him like he was a god.

      I go into bestbuy every once in a while just to screw with the geek-squad. One of my favorite things to do it read the specs of a system sitting on the shelf and ask someone if it would run that good with linux. Some would say anything if they thought you were going to buy it, some ask for the geek squad people to come over and field the question. And those boys tell you anything for any reason it seems. I have often thought about writing their answers down and publishing them somewhere. This reminds me of a time when a neighbor's cdrom quit working and he was told he needed a plug and play card (whatever that is) and it would cost $80 on top of the cdrom.

    16. Re:Data loss by sumdumass · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      I agree with the smart too. I don't know how many drives I have seen that died shortly after it started annoying people.

      As for you sig, you do realize that the movies More does is an exaggeration of the situation in almost all cases and sometimes it is made up or misplaced to mislead the impression you get from watching it. I haven't seen it yet but I have seen him doing promotional interviews. I guess this one isn't much different then the others. I have already been told some of the stuff in the interviews were flat out wrong by people living in the other countries that are supposed to be so much better.

    17. Re:Data loss by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1
      Unless they work in the NSA.

      In which case, you're pretty much screwed.

    18. Re:Data loss by richlv · · Score: 1

      actually, calculation does not take that much with modern cpus. what kills it, is a lot of small writes.
      more or less this means that most of these writes requires reading a bit of data from all of the drives. nasty.
      and if this continues for a prolonged period, once all caches are exhausted, it kinda deadlocks.

      --
      Rich
    19. Re:Data loss by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Having worked for a few years managing 250+ servers, my experience is definitely that SMART errors are not to be ignored.

      I have my desktop set up to mail me a warning and shut down on any SMART error. That should give me enough time to buy a new disk and salvage my data.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    20. Re:Data loss by zeromemory · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not all hardware controllers will allow you to do a reconstruct to add more
      space and extend the partitions later on RAID 10 or 1+0. Likewise, many hardware controllers won't let you extend a RAID-5 array, (unless they implement some dynamic stripe size hack, a la ZFS's RAID-Z).

      Recovering from a failed 1+0 is ok if it is a "simple" failure. Please explain what a !simple failure would be. Here, let me give you a 'simple' failure case where RAID-5 would be pretty difficult to recover from: a drive fails in your RAID-5 array, and you lose power or experience another hardware failure shortly afterwards, before you can replace the drive. Whoops, you just became another victim of the RAID-5 write-hole (see the section under RAID-5 performance).

      OK, here's why we use RAID-10 at my installation: it provides great performance and can survive multiple drive failures without the overhead of something like RAID-6. RAID-10 also has no 'write-hole'. Don't just take my word for it, though, check out this article from Adaptec comparing the merits of all the basic RAID levels and their nested brethren.
    21. Re:Data loss by Eivind · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No. I don't think you are. Or you are, but for a different reason.

      Even the NSA very very probably can not recover any useful information from a disk overwritten the way I wrote. They have lots of money and expertise, but the laws of physics apply to them too.

      But they could get at the information on your computer by other means that you'd be unlikely to detect, if they really wanted to. For example, if the information is from the net and you don't encrypt everything, they could easily wiretap your broadband. Getting a hardware-keylogger into your keyboard would be possible too, aswell as dozens of other tricks.

    22. Re:Data loss by 228e2 · · Score: 1

      Re Re sig Ive seen the movie and asked plenty of people from Canada, France, UK, Norway, etc. For the most part, the movie is true. This isnt your typical MM movie, its honeslty different . . . id suggest you check it out.

      --
      Since when does being a Socialist mean 'someone who has a different opinion than me'?
    23. Re:Data loss by proxima · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have my desktop set up to mail me a warning and shut down on any SMART error. That should give me enough time to buy a new disk and salvage my data.

      I've always thought you have a slightly better chance of getting valid data off of a drive if you never actually power it down when it's failing. This is anecdotal from a power outage causing many old hard drives in a building to give up, with their computers normally having uptime measured in months or even years.

      Of course, to recover data like this you would need another computer accessible via the network, rather than installing a replacement in the desktop itself. Read any possible data off it while you still can, without putting it through the stress of powerdown/powerup.
      --
      "The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
    24. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      My drive died on me too. S.M.A.R.T complained about the drive since two months. It would sometimes not even boot but in other cycles continue. The dual-boot with Windows and Linux at one point only ran linux. Now it runs none.

      When SMART complains... you better backup and get another drive!

    25. Re:Data loss by psicic · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Just remember, no matter what else, one still "unleashes the beast"

      --
      Concrete analysis...
    26. Re:Data loss by Barny · · Score: 1

      Hehe, at the store I work at (and do most of the OS install stuff at) if someone asks "does this part work under linux" or "how fast does linux run on it" I cheat and break out knoppix :)

      If they ask about apples, I usually just say we only sell computers. :P

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
    27. Re:Data loss by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's also the way to go for speed - your controller doesn't have to calculate the parity bits for every write operation (yes I know the parity sum is simple - that doesn't stop it from adding a bottleneck).

      The "bottleneck" of parity calculations is so small as to be irrelevant. Parity-based RAID levels are bottlenecked by the much higher number of physical disk operations, not the parity calculations.

    28. Re:Data loss by Gr8Apes · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think you've missed the point - RAID 1+0 allows you to fail up to n drives (with 2 n needed to build the array).

      Additionally, should a drive fail, rebuilding will only marginally affect your performance, degrading it by a fraction compared to a RAID 5/6 rebuild. (Only 1 drive is affected out of your stripe set, the rest perform at peak operational speed)

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    29. Re:Data loss by encoderer · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yesterday at a Best Buy in Ohio a guy and his wife were looking at 42" Sony LCDs. There was a 1080P for $1899 and a 1080i for $1599. Guy asked the sales associate what the difference was.

      Sales associate, I shit you not, said "The "P" is actually a newer product. It is 7 minor revisions later. We still carry the "i" because it's still very popular. The same thing happens with our wireless equipment, too. the "N" version is out, but most users are still buying the "G" Version"

      I approached the guy after the sales associate left and said "listen, that guy has no clue what he's talking about. I is interlaced, P is progressive. On an "i" it's drawing 540 lines every frame, on a "p" it's drawing all 1080. Go with the "P" if you can afford the difference. It's worth it"

    30. Re:Data loss by foo+fighter · · Score: 1

      In my experience, when S.M.A.R.T. tells you a drive is dead or dying, its not kidding.

      That's if SMART tells you.

      --
      obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
    31. Re:Data loss by walt-sjc · · Score: 5, Informative

      I lost 3 drives out of 6 within a few hours of each other. Raid 1+0 saved my bacon. Zero down time. Got the email alert about the first drive, and scheduled a trip to the datacenter. Then I got the other two back to back a couple hours later. These were all 15K rpm SCSI drives which had survived a 2 week stress test burn-in, and had been in production for about a year, so it was totally unexpected. In another case, I lost 2 drives in a Raid 5 and had to resort to restoring the machine from backups - a day lost. Raid 6 performance is even worse than Raid 5, so I personally see no point - YMMV. Raid 5 and 6 rebuild time is also VERY slow compared to 1+0, taking 3 times longer in my testing.

      Anyway, what's that old saying? Expect the unexpected? When you buy a pile of drives, you are likely to get the batch from the same manufacturing line, day, etc. This probably also increases the chances of simultaneous failures if there is a physical quality problem. If you have two fail, expect a third. I generally don't mix up batches because I want to know where all the drives from a particular batch are, but maybe I should.

    32. Re:Data loss by walt-sjc · · Score: 1

      Paranoid's will dump all drives into an industrial shredder, and witness the process. Quite a few financial institutions do this.

    33. Re:Data loss by QuantumPion · · Score: 1

      Speaking of flux capacitors, when can I get my hands on a 1.21 jiggobyte drive for my delorian?

    34. Re:Data loss by peanutious · · Score: 1

      BTW: Turn off S.M.A.R.T. This is like the indication of an ink cartridge: When the maker thinks you need a new drive Back in Feb, slashdot posted Google's White Paper on Hard Disk Failures. This is the largest known study on hard drive failure rates.

      If a drive is showing strong SMART errors, it is a good indication that the drive is failing. However, only 44% of the failed drives in this study had any count in any of the four strong SMART signals, namely scan errors, reallocation count, offline reallocation, and probational count. "In other words, models based only on those [SMART] signals can never predict more than half of the failed drives."

      Other cool findings:
      • Lack of a consistent pattern of higher failure rates for higher temperature drives
      • Lack of a consistent pattern for drives at higher utilization levels.
    35. Re:Data loss by dekkerdreyer · · Score: 1

      Last person who asked me who to turn off "all those SMART errors" had the drive fail a week later.

      --
      Dekker Dreyer
    36. Re:Data loss by riffzifnab · · Score: 1
      Google agrees with you [pdf warning]

      We conclude that it is unlikely that SMART data alone can be effectively used to build models that predict failures of individual drives. SMART parameters still appear to be useful in reasoning about the aggregate reliability of large disk populations, which is still very important for logistics and supply-chain planning. It is possible, however, that models that use parameters beyond those provided by SMART could achieve significantly better accuracies. So SMART is good, but it could be better.
    37. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In practice, if you do the standard wipe, which is usually some variant of all-nulls, all ones, 3 times random, there is -zip- chance that anyone will be able to get at the data that was once on the platter.

      I'm not sure.. I think it might be possible to get to information that has been overwritten that many times. There's a famous paper on the subject. What you can recover from a multiple erasure are the probabilities that each original bit was 1, which is nowhere near as useful as knowing the values for certain, but might still be of interest. As you say, you can't use the disk to store N times its capacity using this! But a determined attacker could recover some information.

      I think the only way to be secure is to use full disk encryption. That way, you can even RMA your failed hard disks without worrying that your data may be copied. Or destroy your disks when they fail, and hope they don't get stolen before then.

    38. Re:Data loss by CCFreak2K · · Score: 1

      In MY experience, when SMART tells you a drive is dead or dying...it's already dead. That is, if SMART even manages to add everything up in the first place.

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
    39. Re:Data loss by MBGMorden · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Must just have good luck. I've bee using hard drives since 1991 or so (until then I was on Commodores with floppy only :)). I've been through dozens as well, and MOST of help up just fine. Exceptions are: 1gb Western Digital. This was the first drive to fail on me, but it was 1 week after I had gotten into a car accident (rear ended) with the computer sitting in my back seat of the car. I'm thinking that jolt may have had something to do with the failure. The replace for that drive was a 5gb Micropolis. It had "clicky" (read head tapping the platter) problems out of the box, but after RMA'ing that drive the replacement worked fine (and still works fine in an old computer I keep in my shed).

      And then I met the beast known as the IBM Desktar 75GXP 40gb. I went through 5 of those, all the same drive (or rather, the same warranty) having to RMA it over and over. It was eventually replaced with a 60gb 60GXP. That one failed too. It's replacement is still working, but it makes a clicking noise every now and then that isn't the "normal" read noise - I don't put any data on the drive. Just apps that I have backup install media for. There was eventually a class action suit brought against IBM for these drives. They were just terrible.

      I'll still never buy anything that says Desktar again, and despite the possiblity of the crash effecting it, my time spent as a computer tech while in college has prompted me to never buy Western Digital again either. Though I'm sure there are other reliable brands, I've developed a very, very good respect for Seagate drives. They never tend to be the fastest, but they've never given me any trouble.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    40. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      No, it's typical Michael Moore fare. He doesn't technically lie, but he omits things and juxtaposes things to give a slightly skewed impression. I'm Canadian, and while he does a fairly good job describing the Canadian health care system, he neglects to mention the waiting lists for non-urgent care. Waiting lists in Canada, on average, are long, much longer in the US. If your case is urgent/acute, like in the fingers-chopped-off scenario, then yes, you will get care very quickly. If your case is chronic/not urgent, like say you have a bad hip that only allows you to walk only an hour a day before the pain gets to be too much, then expect to be on the waiting list for 3-24 months (depending on which province you're in).

      Also, I have a friend from France. He said most of what Moore showed off was true. However, in the movie they visit the apartment of what they portray as a "middle-class" couple. In reality, that would be an upper middle-class couple, at the very least. Middle-class couples in France usually don't take a half dozen vacations to every continent.

    41. Re:Data loss by temojen · · Score: 1

      Buying the cheapest drive on the market.

    42. Re:Data loss by kyncani · · Score: 1

      According to this paper http://www.usenix.org/events/fast07/tech/schroeder .html presented at FAST 2007 (a usenix conference), a disk reporting smart errors has a high probability of future failure.

      The entire article is a very worthwhile read about disk failures.

    43. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in Canada, we have Future Shop (which incidentally was bought out by Best Buy a few years ago but the company decided to keep both chains operating as competing entities). The sales droids at Future Shop will say absolutely anything if they think it will get them a sale. I have heard them make up the most ridiculous shit imaginable, or even outright lie about a product ("yes, that's PCI" when the box is clearly labelled as an ISA card). I used to find it amusing, but lately it's more annoying than anything else.

    44. Re:Data loss by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      RAID 1+0 is the way to go for redundancy. Unless you're unlucky enough to lose both drives in one of the pairs making up the array, you can survive more than one drive failing.

      Of course you'll be unlucky enough to lose both drives in one of the pairs. The package says "Hitachi", not "Western Digital". There's a reason they were called Hitachi Deathstar drives.

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    45. Re:Data loss by Control+Group · · Score: 1

      Don't confuse "able to recover all data" with "able to recover any data." To have useful storage, you need the former. If you're paranoid, you need to protect against the latter.

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
    46. Re:Data loss by mashade · · Score: 1

      A RAID 5 of these may make you drool from a capacity standpoint, but it looks like for bang-for-the-buck, WD's Caviar 16SE 750GB spanks the new Hitachi consistently. If you RTFA, you'll see that Caviar come out on top most of the time.

      It reads more like a Western Digital advertisement than a Hitachi review :)

      --
      Technology tips and tricks.
    47. Re:Data loss by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      Yesterday at a Best Buy in Ohio a guy and his wife were looking at 42" Sony LCDs. There was a 1080P for $1899 and a 1080i for $1599.

      I'm a little confused. LCDs simply don't come in interlaced formats. Neither do LCoS, nor DLP, nor plasma.

    48. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      most of these writes requires reading a bit of data from all of the drives. No. Just two drives - the drive you are writing to, and the one that's got the parity information for this particilar slice. Read the original data and read the parity. For every bit you flip in the original data you also flip the corresponding bit in the parity data. Re-write both and you're done.
    49. Re:Data loss by pthor1231 · · Score: 1

      A Government facility my brother worked at for a short while would do this, as well as then melting the drives together in one massive lump of metal, and then storing the hunk in a secret dump somewhere. Then they had to buy new hard drives to put back in the computers that they leased :/

    50. Re:Data loss by pakar · · Score: 1

      If you really want security just go with 2 raid5's that you then do manual backups between... Remember that the most common source of dataloss is software failure..

    51. Re:Data loss by operagost · · Score: 2, Informative

      RAID-6 may seem inefficient, but it's superior to RAID 10 because it is capable of recovering from two drive failures, whereas RAID 10 may recover from two drive failures. It is possible to lose a second member of one of the mirrors before the first is rebuilt. In RAID 6, you already have enough parity data online to recover immediately from two simultaneous failures.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    52. Re:Data loss by karmatic · · Score: 1

      On an "i" it's drawing 540 lines every frame, on a "p" it's drawing all 1080. Go with the "P" if you can afford the difference. It's worth it"

      I'm a little confused. LCDs simply don't come in interlaced formats. Neither do LCoS, nor DLP, nor plasma.


      While LCDs have only their native resolution, it is quite possible to produce a LCD that has a native resolution under 1920x1080, requiring stretching. Regardless of this, it's been my experience that just a monitor having a native resolution sufficient to draw a full 1920x1080 frame on it does not necessarily mean you can send it a HDMI 1080p signal. Anything can be scaled.
    53. Re:Data loss by Feanturi · · Score: 3, Informative

      What are people doing with drives to make them fail?

      I've got the same question, as I've gone through a lot of hard drives over the years but only due to upgrading, not failure. The only exception was the IBM Deskstar GXP75 that had the whole click of death thing going on. I don't count that one since it was a known issue that resulted in a class action suit, which I didn't bother to take part in. The first one failed within a month, so I replaced it at the store, and the replacement failed after a day. Replaced again. The third one failed after a week but I was tired of going back to the store by then so tried an experiment - the click of death was kicking in somewhere near 500MB after the beginning of the drive so I repartitioned it to leave the first 500MB unpartitioned. My experience with the drive up to that point told me that wherever the click of death manifested, it would consistantly happen in whatever part of the drive it first happened at. That drive has been in constant use ever since then (it's been like 5 years or so by now hasn't it?) and still works great, since it never accesses the 'bad part' anymore.

    54. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And of course, given the current state of things, you can't forget about torture, either.

    55. Re:Data loss by Neoprofin · · Score: 1

      Moore has also been fighting with Sanje Gupta from CNN about his (Moore's) practice of comparing numbers from different years and different studies even when more comparable numbers are available because his cherry-picked ones make a better point.

    56. Re:Data loss by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      Also if someone really wants that data it'd be a lot easier for them to just steal it from my home (with server included), kidnap me then have me give it to them, install a root kit on my systems after breaking into my home, etc. Hell if its the government they can even do all this legally.

      Also from what I understand right now any sort of override makes data unrecoverable (baring government agencies maybe) due to the density of modern drives.

    57. Re:Data loss by epp_b · · Score: 1

      I have often thought about writing their answers down and publishing them somewhere.
      Oooh, please do! :)
    58. Re:Data loss by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      You were extraordinarily lucky that it was just the right 3 drives that failed. That is, assuming you really needed the zero down time. ;-)

      Your point about drives all being from the same batch increasing their likelihood of simultaneous failure is spot-on. Generally speaking, the theoretical odds of simultaneous failure are remarkably small. In reality, the odds are a good deal greater. :-(

    59. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I would hate to loose that much data on one drive.

      What do you mean by loose? How would the data not be tight?

    60. Re:Data loss by m50d · · Score: 1
      I generally don't mix up batches because I want to know where all the drives from a particular batch are, but maybe I should.

      If you're not using drives from different batches in your arrays you have no business talking about data security. Seriously, to not even be using different batches (I would go with different manufacturers, in general) is just stupid.

      --
      I am trolling
    61. Re:Data loss by m50d · · Score: 1
      What are people doing with drives to make them fail?

      Powering them on and off a lot, in my experience. People who turn their machines on and off several times a day get through hard drives fairly quickly.

      --
      I am trolling
    62. Re:Data loss by Mr+Z · · Score: 2, Informative

      Right, but if the wrong 2 drives fail, you're hosed. You can lose up to N drives (out of a 2*N array) only if you lose 1 drive from each mirror pair. It's possible to hose a RAID 10 array of any size by losing just two drives if they're the two drives that mirror each other.

    63. Re:Data loss by afidel · · Score: 1

      Plasma's do, and the inputs on many LCD's only accept 1080i because someone cheaped out $5 on the DAC's. I never understood why there were units that wouldn't handle 1080p on the DVI/HDMI inputs, but they exist.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    64. Re:Data loss by afidel · · Score: 2, Informative

      The best is something like what Xiotech implements, we do virtual RAID10 across all our spindles and it makes sure that no data and redundancy block are in the same drive bay. That way you can lose both power supplies or fibre controllers in a disk cabinet and not lose any data. It can do the same with RAID5 but performance is limited by the speed that the controllers can do the parity calculations whereas with RAID10 we are limited only by FC bandwidth or the number of concurrent I/O's we are trying to push (we've tested to 18,000).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    65. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi:
      I'm going to ask a silly question: where the heck are you getting your drives? How do you obtain failure in three brand new drives within hours of each other? What was the cause? That's a bit too bizarre for mechanical failure.

    66. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFA!

    67. Re:Data loss by 228e2 · · Score: 1

      yea, i suspected that doctor wasnt "middle" class, from what i was hearing. But most of my friends in Windsor (im in neighboring Detroit) tell me theres a decent trade off. Yea, the waits are longer and they take more from your pay, on most urgent things you can have done right away, which compared to never is pretty good even if you have to wait. And then you have school stipend which would kick ass here . . . do you know how many people would benefit from that in a inner city alone? Man . . . I can only pray we get that here.

      --
      Since when does being a Socialist mean 'someone who has a different opinion than me'?
    68. Re:Data loss by aztracker1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I like to use Raid1 myself.. usually not an issue, but I did have two drives fail at once in a system, which royally sucked.. one wouldn't do anything.. fortunately the other was able to run long enough to rebuild the mirror (after a 15 minute stay in the freezer). Most disk access, for most typical use is read.. so slower writes aren't a huge deal.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    69. Re:Data loss by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I would be almost afraid of getting accuse of plagiarizing their employee hand book if I did.

      BTW, I love your sig.

    70. Re:Data loss by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Right, but when you build production systems, your mirror halves will be from different lots, and you might even preemptively swap half out on a time schedule, depending upon how crucial your data is. So the odds of 2 drives in a mirror set failing simultaneously, or near enough to affect the full data set becomes astronomical.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    71. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I CRIED for a half hour over a filled 160GB drive after it got killed by an electrical storm"

      I suppose it is redundant to tell a /.er this, but you need to get some perspective.
    72. Re:Data loss by Matey-O · · Score: 1

      I use netflix for my offline storage.

      --
      "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
    73. Re:Data loss by jimicus · · Score: 1

      The best is something like what Xiotech implements, we do virtual RAID10 across all our spindles and it makes sure that no data and redundancy block are in the same drive bay

      IBM have been able to do something similar with SSA (no, I don't mean SAS or SATA - it's a proprietary IBM technology) for some years now with AIX - at least as far back as AIX 4.

    74. Re:Data loss by jimicus · · Score: 1

      No. If you really want security, you 3-way mirror it across three separate bays with separate power supplies, preferably supplied by separate PDUs which are in turn on separate phases/UPSen. Preferably using some sort of disk technology which allows multiple paths to the disk - be it fibre channel, SSA or whatever.

      Backup is offsite - either by a bunch of tapes or by replicating live. If you go the live replication route, you still want some sort of offline storage in case of data loss caused by human error or software bug (in which case the data loss would be immediately replicated to your backup site - hence the offline storage).

      Before you berate me with "Nah, tape is crap" - it is if you use DAT. But I'm talking about LTO3 or even the recently-ratified LTO4, which is fast and designed to last 20-30 years, and keeping them in a temperature and humidity controlled environment.

      That's beginning to sound like a reasonably secure system. Of course, it's also beginning to sound like a reasonably expensive system.

    75. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My LCD screen only goes 1080i (the only progressive scan modes it has is 720p and 480p). I got a good deal on the TV, and I'm not too worried about it, because DirecTV's HD only does 1080i anyway, and I'm not going to get a BD-ROM player any time soon.

    76. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still running on a 7 year-old drive from WD. It replaced another HDD, though, because for some reason it wouldn't boot up after one of my uncles used it... But that was a short while after I bought it from Dell, and me being a noob at the time, didn't have anything worth saving... The tech showed up next day with a new drive, slapped it in, and it's had no problems ever since.

      I've had way bigger problems with fans. I fucking hate those things. At one point it sounded like a person was trying to grind some steel. If you listen closely when you have a fan turned on, you can hear me cry in the distance.

    77. Re:Data loss by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      In practice, if you do the standard wipe, which is usually some variant of all-nulls, all ones, 3 times random, there is -zip- chance that anyone will be able to get at the data that was once on the platter. No, I don't think so. See Dan Gutman's paper on Secure Deletion where he comments that with modern PRML based drives such a procedure as you have described is merely "about as well as can be expected." That is a far cry from being able to actually guarantee that an expert employing scanning tunneling microscopy could not extract the data.
    78. Re:Data loss by pakar · · Score: 1

      Shure you could do that... but i don't think the average geek here has a couple of hundred thousand to keep their data secure :)...

      But some stuff that you might want to think about... keep a couple of tape-drives + machines tucked away with the tapes since you never know if the tape-tech or device-bus that you connect it to the system with will go obsolete.. Have seen horror-examples on that where they have the data on some media, but NO way to get it out since the device had failed from just sitting in the storage-facility... And if you are going to store some computer-equipment for that many years it might even be good to think about storing it in some container where you replace the air with some inert gas to reduce/eliminate oxidation of the circuits.

      So to make the a long story short, tapes are great, if you still have a working reader for it 30 years down the road :)

    79. Re:Data loss by ShaggyIan · · Score: 1

      Most of the folks from Windsor I've ever known come to the US for their health care. They also bemoan the high taxes regularly, especially the smokers.

      For urgent issues (or unfortunately non-urgent issues) you can always visit an ER and never pay. Multitudes do it every day, thanks to EMTLA.

      Socialism sure sounds nice. Too bad it doesn't generally work in practice.

      --

      This sig was generated randomly by one million monkeys with Speak 'n Spells. . .
    80. Re:Data loss by jimicus · · Score: 1

      So to make the a long story short, tapes are great, if you still have a working reader for it 30 years down the road :)

      I didn't say it was completely foolproof ;)

      Besides, how many 30 year old hard disks can you still plug in and access directly today? (I say that, SCSI has been around for nearly 20 years now...)

    81. Re:Data loss by Wicko · · Score: 1

      You don't need to do that with SATA drives. They are hotswappable. Of course, you might be stuck if you can't use SATA drives (are SCSI's hot swappable?).

    82. Re:Data loss by Wicko · · Score: 1

      I'm going to have to agree with you. I have a whole bunch of 100MB HD's, and ALL of them work. I've had bad sectors before on one of my Seagates, but it was easily fixed and the drive still worked without any problems. I've pretty much only bought Seagate drives though, perhaps that has something to do with it.

    83. Re:Data loss by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      In my experience, when S.M.A.R.T. tells you a drive is dead or dying, its not kidding.

      Agreed. I was able to detect early failure on my laptop disk and replace it without fuss. Likewise I have a group of 5 320GB Western Digital drives, all the exact same model (as far as I can tell) and all work fine with similar stats except for one disk which has a few sector replacements and unrecoverable CRC errors. Basically, that drive will probably die before it's replaced with a larger RAID, so I watch it to make sure the numbers aren't getting too high. Once 320GB drives get cheap enough ($50 or so) I'll just buy a spare one to keep around until it dies. Without SMART, I wouldn't have a clue how the drives were doing.

    84. Re:Data loss by Tassach · · Score: 1

      It's ok to have drives from the same batch in a RAID 1+0 array as long as all the siblings are on the same side... of course if you're mirroring a drive to another drive in the same batch, you're asking for trouble.

      --
      Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
    85. Re:Data loss by beaviz · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I approached the guy after the sales associate left and said "listen, that guy has no clue what he's talking about. I is interlaced, P is progressive. On an "i" it's drawing 540 lines every frame, on a "p" it's drawing all 1080. Go with the "P" if you can afford the difference. It's worth it"
      And then his head exploded.
    86. Re:Data loss by speeDDemon+(nw) · · Score: 1

      I have to agree wholeheartedly.

      At my work, we often have computers come in with 'weird' errors, One of the first checks we do once we get to hardware testing is to read the SMART info. A great tool for this in win32 is called "Speed Fan".

      Reallocated sectors can have bad data, Power cycle counts can indicate drive electronics failing. There is so much information provided.

      SMART is not an authority, but in my opinion is an invaluable source of data about the drive.

    87. Re:Data loss by owlstead · · Score: 1

      There was a discussion about S.M.A.R.T. some time ago, I think it was on slashdot. S.M.A.R.T. performance was not that great. But given the circumstances, if S.M.A.R.T. starts issuing warnings, it is definitely a good idea to start making backups. It might not fail yet, but there is definitely something wrong.

      The big thing was that if S.M.A.R.T. does not say anything, it does not mean everything is OK. Your drive may still fail any instant. Then again, having the chance that it will report something out of the ordinary against no warning possibility at all... S.M.A.R.T. wins hands down, even though it is one of the most evil acronyms created in all times.

    88. Re:Data loss by pakar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hmm... lets see... The IDE interface has been around since around 1984 so that's around 24 years.. Quite impressive... SCSI came at 1981 so that's around 26 years... Depending on the adapter you might even be able to access one of those old SASI disks that came around 1979, so now we are up to about 28-29 years of old hardware that you can access with currently available controllers... And you could even read punchcards with current hardware.. Just get a scanner :)

      The issue is always if you have some possibility to read the media in the future, and it's always a hard thing if you have something that requires some extra reader with moving parts that can fail even if it's not being used due to corrosion and such... And i do think that a plain controller-card without any moving parts can be a bit easier to store, and if just using lots and lots of disk you can just migrate the data as time go by and the disks becomes cheaper.. Alot more fuss if you would want to migrate any of those LTO tapes to some new tape since that would require someone to fetch the tape, put it into a reader, read the data back, verify the data and then continue on with the next tape.. Just look at the past.. The amount of storage the disks have has exploded.. I remember when i got my first 'big' drive of a whole whopping 20MB and now around 20 years later i could fit 250 copies of that in my RAM..
      So the problem is not really 'how do we store all the data' but more 'How do we migrate the data to new storage in the future?'

      1. Man paints on cavewalls - still visible ~30000 years
      2. Man carves on stone-platters - still visible after ~20000 years
      3. Man writes on paper/papyrus etc - still readable after ~7500 years
      4. Man invents computers - All unmaintained data older than 40 years is lost :)

      And yes, it's fun to mess with people at this hour :)

    89. Re:Data loss by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      In practice, if you do the standard wipe, which is usually some variant of all-nulls, all ones, 3 times random, there is -zip- chance that anyone will be able to get at the data that was once on the platter.

      While the heads certainly try to stay on center and overwrite the old data, there's always some leakage. With increasing data density, commodity hardware can read the leakage. Even if each overwrite is 90% effective, there's still 1/100000th of the data left on the disk. Disks have grown from 1MB to 1TB in the last 30 years, 10 times that factor. In other words, with commodity hardware it's probably possible to plug a 20-30 year old wiped platter under a modern head and read useful data off of it. I've never tried it, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it worked. Future improvements will likely make current disks readable after a few wipes. Once we get to the actual molecular/magnetic domain limits of storage, then I agree that a couple of wipes will erase all the information.

      Just encrypt sensitive data. It's more secure, and Moore's law works with you instead of against you. It's faster to encrypt your disks (with faster and faster processors) than to spend time wiping your disk lots of times in expectation of improving technology. Additionally, many disks can't be wiped after the drive is "dead", although the platters or drive electronics can be swapped out at minimal cost to recover the data.

    90. Re:Data loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even the NSA very very probably can not recover any useful information from a disk overwritten the way I wrote. They have lots of money and expertise, but the laws of physics apply to them too. Yes, they do. Ever hear of MFM, or STM?

      Read this article by Peter Guttman, and enjoy.

      http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_ del.html
    91. Re:Data loss by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "and you might even preemptively swap half out on a time schedule, depending upon how crucial your data is"

      Aaahh, the mights of conditional probability. What do you exactly expect to gain from swaping disks on schedule, apart from the chance of having a disk failing when you are swaping the other and then being *you* the direct cause for the lost array?

    92. Re:Data loss by Acer500 · · Score: 1

      Well, many of us work/worked as Sysadmins, or build systems in our spare time, or whatever, so we get to see an amount of HDDs way above the average user.

      While I had only one drive failure in my own PCs, I've seen at least fifty dead hard drives, including SCSI and IDE.

      I'd say you probably upgraded most of your computers in time, and also consider that most hard drives die either at the very beginning of their lifespan or they start failing quite close to one another after their expected lifespan (which varies depending on the manufacturer but I jokingly say it's warranty + 1 month), the story about a HDD dying after just one year is odd, most of them die soon after installing or at least 2 years afterwards.

      Google has seen a googol more HDDs than me (bad pun intended), and published a paper on the subject, which was linked in this very site:

      http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/ 18/0420247

      Nice random comment on the paper that supports what I was saying: "in fact, all the metrics paint a pretty clear picture of infant mortality, then reasonably fit drives suriving their expected operational life (3 years). in senescence, all forms of stress correlate with increased failure." Mark Hahn

      --
      There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
    93. Re:Data loss by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      It's all conditional. Until it fails, do you really know it's going to fail? If I knew which drive was going to fail and when, I wouldn't need RAID in the first place.

      Putting in process and regular refreshes of hardware is the surest way to prevent a multi-disk loss. (Yes, you'd want to do this offline)

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    94. Re:Data loss by toddestan · · Score: 1

      I've had a few failures, only lost data one (a 800MB Conner). All others I either managed to get working atleast one more time to get the data off of it, or I got warning signs and copied the contents before it croaked. Oh, and two Maxtors that were DOA with bad sectors.

      I think the key is to not let the harddrives get too hot, and to replace them before they fail (which is easy when you "obsolete" them for being too small before the warrenty is up). Though granted, my older 1GB to 160GB drives are still very reliable, though most of them see little use overall.

    95. Re:Data loss by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Putting in process and regular refreshes of hardware is the surest way to prevent a multi-disk loss. (Yes, you'd want to do this offline)"

      In order for this to be true, you should demonstrate that the expected probability of failure for the new disks is lower than for the removed ones plus the risks of any ground operation. Google demonstrates that this is not the case on his own very big data set: within three or four years (that is, more or less the expected operative live of the equiment as a whole, at least on "first line"), the rate failure is almost constant, so there's no real advantage on changing the disks except for the case when this means that the array is made up from different series and brands to avoid the defficient lot case (which you could have avoided from the very begining if that was the point). Of course you gain a false sense of security and that you did everything the right way so nobody can point their finger on you in case something go nuts. On the other hand you can directly cause the failure exchanging disks "live" if you have bad luck, you will reduce uptime if you go offline and you certainly increase the risk of human error. So while changing disks "feels" right, it is not; it's much better having some "hot spares" within the array and some already tested "cold spares" ready on the datacenter in order to reduce to a minimum the window where you operate a degraded array and then don't go anywhere near the premises unless really necesary (remember number one cause of problems is a sysadmin/field technician near the computer, even if he's only peeking around).

    96. Re:Data loss by zolaar · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's classic! You are one twisted twisted mofo -- being able to come up with that load right there on the spot? Awesome!

      Honestly though, people. The "G" version is totally acceptable for most people's needs. Totally not worth it to buy the "P" version, as it is missing some digital acuity in the upper kilobaud range -- dunno about you, but I notice it every time. The "N" version shows promise, though -- I can't wait until the FCC finally gets their act together and reqires the BetaMax filters to be installed on all TVs, and we'll get some *real* action.

      Dude, I swear, I wouldn't have been able to keep a straight face! Classic!

      --
      One man's constant is another man's variable.
    97. Re:Data loss by Eivind · · Score: 1

      But, as you say, that's paranoia. The thing is though, the value of old hard-drives is very low. So though a wipe-operation may safely salvage them, it may simply not be worth the cost. Also, the physical destruction is more understandable to PHBs and probably impresses the general public more. It also has the advantage of being easier to verify. How do you KNOW that the program really did overwrite like it claims to do ? It's a lot easier to feel certain that the hard-drive really was dumped into the molten iron.

    98. Re:Data loss by Eivind · · Score: 1

      I know the paper. Still, the conclusion is that by using the simple method they recommend an attackers job can be made "significantly more expensive, if not impossible."

      The attacks presented there are also just hypothesis past the "twice-overwritten" level. Nobody has, as far as I know, in the open literature demonstrated recovery of data overwritten more than twice with random data. It is likely that the NSA and friends are ahead of the open research on this area, but not ligthyears ahead. At some point physical limits do bite them in the ass.

    99. Re:Data loss by Eivind · · Score: 1

      If you're paranoid, then you are paranoid. If, however, you are concerned with the real world, then in actual fact, it is completely unlikely that you'll have any problem whatsoever with data being recovered after, for example, the overwrite-scheme I suggested. Unlikely enough that you have other bigger problems unless you live in a 24x7 armed-guard faraday-cage facility.

    100. Re:Data loss by Eivind · · Score: 1

      No, that is underparanoid. A single overwrite is almost certainly fully recoverable with even standard data-salvage methods.

      That is because, a bit simplified explained, a 1 overwritten by an 1 will end up as say 1.05, a 0 overwritten by a 1 will end up as say 0.95, the difference between the two are significant and actually quite easy to detect, even with normal college-equipment.

      Overwriting 3-5 times with random data should however be sufficient in a practical sense.

    101. Re:Data loss by Eivind · · Score: 1

      Read it long ago. It just hypothesises past 2 overwrites. It is by no means a practical concern. Even from a theoretical POV the paper is weak. It literally says that overwriting *any* number of times may be insufficient. But that'd imply infinite data-storage-capacity, which clearly is unphysical. If you could recover even a single byte from each of the last infinite overwrites, that'd mean infinite data-storage. Which ain't how the physical universe works.

    102. Re:Data loss by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      3-4 years is the cycle life of a server, generally. In the old days, disk arrays might outlive their servers, as they were potentially many times more expensive than their servers, and in those cases, You'd probably be more likely to add a live mirror than swap disks.

      Today, with SANs, most of this discussion is moot. You'd have hot spare servers ready, if you were seriously interested in uptime, complete with the last full back up (you did test your backup by doing a restore, no?) and would merely need to update the transaction logs from then to present. (Lots of assumptions there, it really depends upon the particulars of your situation.)

      As for Google, I'd really love to see the breakdown of drive manufacturers and types. From my own experience with 500 or so Seagate SCSI HDs my failure rate was closer to 0.1% across 4 years (I believe we only lost 3 or 4 drives out of 500). The 200 or so variety of IDE drives in lesser servers failed at a much higher rate, especially considering we had a bad batch of Corsair IDE drives in a set of 30 Dells we bought, with 5 HDs failing during the burn in test (72 hours of continuous full load testing). All of this was during the period of 93 through 99, across several batches of servers. The SGI boxes we bought in 91 didn't suffer a single drive failure in 9 years (total of 8 drives, all SCSI II, think they were Seagate).

      Back then, you bought Seagate if you wanted to sleep easy. I personally own several Seagate drives, one even from 90, that I believe still works although it's been retired for the last 4 or so years. (It was serving as a scratch disk). I've had 2 Hitachi (pre Deathstar) 18GB SCSI drives both pretty much fail after 8 years, one catastrophically. IBM drives are another story, I received a large batch of OEM/refurb drives (twenty 9GB, fifteen 18GB) that had several failures within a 3 year period. I still have 5 36 GB drives that are currently idle, having been replaced by 320GB SATA drives. (Much cheaper, quieter, cooler, and a little slower but much much larger;)

      In the 90s, drive manufacturer was very important. I do not have enough data to make definitive statements about today's drives other than the less expensive IDE and SATA drives definitely don't seem as reliable or long-lived as last decade's SCSI drives.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    103. Re:Data loss by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      HW RAID is a PITA. Not all come with a serial management port, and the ones that do can have hideous, PC-ANSI interfaces. I'd much rather deal with SVM or ZFS via CLI.

    104. Re:Data loss by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      Please provide a reference. Everything I have read says that it is impossible on modern hard drives using modern equipment.

    105. Re:Data loss by Eivind · · Score: 1

      I don't have a reference newer than the one posted several times in this thread.

      But it is reasonable. Normal HDDs are able to (and required to) read with a very low error-rate, even under very suboptimal conditions. Which means the signal used needs to be significantly above the noise-floor.

      If you apply more sophisticated magnetic sensors, and have more optimal conditions, and don't care about getting 99.999999% of the bits correct, you'll be able to do more.

      Even being able to guesstimate the likely value of bits with say 80% probability is more than enough to leak information. It's sufficient that you can look for blocks that look like english text, and proceed from there.

    106. Re:Data loss by billsf · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but I've had some real bum luck with S.M.A.R.T. New drives have told me they're bad. Quite a discussion follows, but some know, maybe its not a time-out, but a surface scan (fsck) is clearly a better indicator. Some OSs can do this while live. I just had it when I realised S.M.A.R.T. was crashing a new machine. Solid as a rock now.

      BillSF

  5. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  6. Re:Perpendicular by sykopomp · · Score: 4, Interesting

    best hardware ad ever http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xPvD0Z9kz8 Get perpendicular!

  7. whoops by scapermoya · · Score: 3, Insightful

    FTFA: "Gigabyte drives were only "missing" 24 bytes, and that was easy to swallow."

    i think they meant 24 megabytes, which is easy to scoff at now, but wasn't when the first gigabyte drives dropped.

    --
    Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch.
    1. Re:whoops by WheresMyDingo · · Score: 1

      Gigabyte drives were only "missing" 24 bytes [sic], and that was easy to swallow.

      I added the sic because swallowing after 24 bytes would certainly make you sic [sic].

  8. it's been here for a while by _Shorty-dammit · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There have already been several drive models using this technology. Seagate's 7200.10 line comes to mind. Toshiba released one in 2005, for that matter. And Fujitsu's got some, too.

  9. The author has some problems with his arithmetic by Don+Sample · · Score: 5, Informative
    He spends a lot of time talking about the difference between binary and SI terabytes and gigabytes, and then comes out with:

    Back in the day, the gap between decimal and binary capacity wasn't big enough to ruffle feathers. Gigabyte drives were only "missing" 24 bytes, and that was easy to swallow.
    Um, 24 bytes is the difference between kilo meaning 1000 and kilo meaning 1024. A binary gigabyte is 1,073,741,824, or 73 megabytes bigger than an SI gigabyte.
  10. Surprising? by swokm · · Score: 1

    I like the tech report's personality better, but not really surprising results, IMHO. Old news from May:

    http://www.storagereview.com/HDS721010KLA330.sr?pa ge=0%2C7

    1. Re:Surprising? by The+Clockwork+Troll · · Score: 1

      Different results.

      The Caviar SE16 was not included in the storagereview.com article.

      That the Caviar SE16 bested the 7K1000 despite the former being of lower density and smaller cache is the "surprise".

      --

      There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
  11. Cliff's Notes by The+Clockwork+Troll · · Score: 1

    Cliff's Notes:

    Although the drive has higher areal density and a larger cache, it still performs worse than WD's latest 750GB Caviar SE16, which sells at a $0.10/GB discount to the Hitachi 7K1000.

    --

    There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
    1. Re:Cliff's Notes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That may be, but chances are the Hitachi will outlive the WD for years.

    2. Re:Cliff's Notes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then again, maybe not. IBM/Hitachi DeathStars, anyone?

    3. Re:Cliff's Notes by tygerstripes · · Score: 1
      I doubt this drive is marketed at those who want the highest capacity per buck, but rather those who want the highest density. Specifically, we're talking Small Form Factor PCs, which can usually only take one or two 3.5" drives.

      Where storage density is more important than price, this is a very sensible drive.

      --
      Meta will eat itself
    4. Re:Cliff's Notes by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      Maybe it isn't a co-incidence that "Caviar" means something in the pr0n world.

  12. tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by _Shorty-dammit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This marketing BS always pisses me off. For years and years and years we've used 1024 in the computer world, since it's a power of 2, and computers deal with powers of 2. A 931GB drive is NOT a 1TB drive. And we don't need new stupid labels like tebi, we just need storage manufacturers to stop being retards.

    1. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by ipooptoomuch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When the marketing department figured out they could make their drives look 5-10% bigger than what they actually were to all non-techies they took advantage of it.

    2. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Jugalator · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Tera is the SI unit for 10^12 so unless you want to introduce special cases for the computer industry alone, we need a new prefix.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    3. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by _Shorty-dammit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Way to pay attention. Nobody gives a rat's ass about "the SI unit." These are computers. And we've always used kilobyte/megabyte/etc as they applied to computers. You think you're right, but you're not. A kilobyte will always be 1024 bytes. A megabyte will always be 1024 kilobytes. A gigabyte will always be 1024 megabytes. And a terabyte will always be 1024 gigabytes...

    4. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd be cool with a new prefix if it didn't make me feel gay to say it. Tebibyte?

    5. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by billsf · · Score: 1

      One TByte is 2^40 bytes. I wouldn't say it doesn't exist as those daring can probably low-level format this machine to that. This 'salesman talk' is deceptive, but One Trillion Bytes is metric. Don't forget every file system needs some overhead, to at least index the files and 'free space' (non-MS) to avoid fragmentation. Every modern OS needs swap space. If you get 900GB of space _you can use_ you are doing very well. Only when used as a 'tape streamer' can you expect to get all available _formatted_ space. If you push these limits, performance will suffer.

      BillSF

    6. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Tomfrh · · Score: 1

      Keep your rotten metric system out of this.

    7. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Moridineas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The revisionists are everywhere unfortunately..

      Every time I see a wikipedia page with MiB or mebibyte or whatever the heck, I want to change--fix--it!

      e.g..

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo2

    8. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by _Shorty-dammit · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Formatting has nothing to do with it. Neither does swap space or file system overhead, or anything else like that. The "lost" space isn't lost to anything like that. The 1000 vs 1024 math is the only culprit. The fact that their drive has the capability to store 1 trillion bytes doesn't make it a 1 terabyte drive. When they release a drive that can store 1,099,511,627,776 bytes, *then* they have a terabyte drive. A trillion bytes is only 931.3GB, period.

    9. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because people have always been stupid doesn't meant they should keep doing so. The definition of Tera of anything is 10^12 of that object.

      Nobody gives a rat's ass about you computer geeks and your misappropriation of prefixes. Don't like changing? Then you dumbasses shouldn't have started using it in the wrong way in the first place.

    10. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      and the correct SI units have always been used by Hard drive manufacturers.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    11. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TeraWatt : 10^12 Watts : 1 trillion Watts
      TeraGram : 10^12 Grams : 1 trillion Grams

      The fact that their drive has the capability to store 1 trillion bytes doesn't make it a 1 terabyte drive

      You are dumb. This is why computer "science" is not respected by real scientists.

    12. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and while we're at it, let's stop all that marketing bullshit in the network card industry, which sells so called 'gigabit Ethernet' cards that actually only manage 1_000_000_000 bits per second, and in processor speeds, which give you a processor several percent slower than you were expecting by using a crooked definition of gigahertz.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    13. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This marketing BS always pisses me off. For years and years and years we've used 1024 in the computer world,

      Oh, really?

      For example IBM and Seagate haven't.

      From 1981 preliminary ST506 manual:

      The ST506 disc drive is a random access storage device with two non-removable 5 1/4 inch discs as storage media. Each disc surface employs one moveable head to service 153 data tracks. The total formatted capacity of the four heads and surfaces is 5 megabytes. (32 sectors per track, 256 bytes per sector, 612 tracks).

      Let's see: 32 sectors per track * 256 bytes per sector * 612 tracks = 5013504 bytes

      OMG marketing BS again (in 1981)

      http://www.bighole.nl/pub/mirror/www.bitsavers.org /pdf/seagate/ST506_Preliminary_OEM_Manual_Apr81.pd f

      You can find many more docs there.

    14. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a case of retarded comp.sci people having failed to adhere to a set standard adopted in all other fields of science.

      Those scientists, and their apologists(like you for example), should be shot, and the parents should be sterilized to prevent further polluting the gene pool with such genetic trash of which you yourself is a particularly stellar specimen

    15. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by _Shorty-dammit · · Score: 1
    16. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The definition of Tera of anything is 10^12 of that object.

      Let us take your absolutism to its logical conclusion.

      Prima: I've got a huge car!

      Secunda: Dude, I've got a huge cat!

      * SUV-sized cat walks in.

      Prima: Dude!

      Secunda: (looking to camera) No, you see, "big" is an adjective, and must be read in the context of the noun it describes. A big cat is not the same size as a big car, or a big house, or a big boat. Prima: I see what you're saying. Similarly, a "kilo-gram" is prefixing the gram, a base-10 system, thus 10^3 grams; while a "kilo-byte", prefixing the byte, part of a base-2 system, refers to 2^10 bytes?

      Secunda: Exactly! Humans, complex machines that they are, make use of context to bring out meaning.

      Prima: But on Wikipedia it says this use is incorrect?

      Secunda: Well, Wikipedia has the quality of a scientific journal... assuming submissions to scientific journals were all accepted for publication, and could be edited by anyone at any time.
      Prima: So, the individual or group with the most amount of time ends up producing the predominant content?

      Secunda: Exactly! The best way to confirm whether an article is likely to be useless is to read its talk page; in fact, you are more likely to learn from this page, as it illustrates the points of contention that one side or the other has tried to suppress.

      Prima: So for the past two decades we have called 1024 bytes a "kilobyte", until one standards body associated with manufacturers of hard drives decided to redefine it...?

      Secunda: Precisely. Worse, the previously unambiguous (outside of hard drive manufacturing) "kilobyte" is now defined as "1000 bytes". It'd be like renaming the mile to the "iMile", then stipulating that all future uses of "mile" should be based on the origin of the word - i.e. one thousand double paces.

      Prima: But paces vary from person to person - it's like you're making an arbitrary change based in a tenuous argument that goes against the principle that language evolves other than by edict!
      Secunda: Now you're getting the hang of it. Have you considered becoming a Wikipedia editor?

      Tercera: Listen you two, either shut up or get a room.

      Prima: Let's get some beer.

      Secunda: Word.

      * SUV-sized cat disappears in a puff of semantics, replaced with a slightly overweight puddytat.

    17. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    18. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Prima: So for the past two decades we have called 1024 bytes a "kilobyte", until one standards body associated with manufacturers of hard drives decided to redefine it...?

      Secunda: Precisely. Worse, the previously unambiguous (outside of hard drive manufacturing) "kilobyte" is now defined as "1000 bytes". It'd be like renaming the mile to the "iMile", then stipulating that all future uses of "mile" should be based on the origin of the word - i.e. one thousand double paces."

      Lol, you're so obviously clueless. The SI prefixes have been EXPLICITLY defined as base-10 since the 1890's. Long before the comp.sci people ARBITRARILY defined the prefixes to be base-2 in their field.

    19. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The binary prefixes sound no dumber than the SI prefixes. "Terabyte" sounds dumb; and "Megabyte," in particular, is just plain awful.

    20. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TeraWatt : 10^12 Watts : 1 trillion Watts
      TeraGram : 10^12 Grams : 1 trillion Grams

      The fact that their drive has the capability to store 1 trillion bytes doesn't make it a 1 terabyte drive

      You are dumb. This is why computer "science" is not respected by real scientists.
      That's ok, we have been known to randomly access parity with science. Think about that a while and maybe you will get a bit of a clue. Do I need to give you 8 or 9 hints? Enough going off and on about it.
    21. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Eivind · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It's worse than that actually, because as the sizes grow, the disparity grows too.
      • When you say 1KB, the difference is 2.4% or 24 bytes.
      • When you say 1MB, the difference is 4.8% or 48KB.
      • When you say 1GB, the difference is 7.4% or 74MB.
      • When you say 1TB, the difference is 10% or 100GB.
      So, the higher the capacity, the more difference is there between binary and decimal units. 2.4% difference is significant enough, but it's not as bad as 10%. Lacking 100GB, or a full tenth of the capacity is however quite noticeable.
    22. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Lol, you're so obviously clueless. The SI prefixes have been EXPLICITLY defined as base-10 since the 1890's. Long before the comp.sci people ARBITRARILY defined the prefixes to be base-2 in their field.

      The "mile" had been defined as 1000 double-paces since before the supposed birth of Christ. But then its meaning evolved in various contexts - the statute mile, the nautical mile, etc. Or, to use your language, "people ARBITRARILY redefined the mile". I hope that you maintain consistency with the original Roman definition when observing speed limits.

      The "kilo", as you say, was defined according to the SI system in C18 to mean "1000 of". But then, as you barely well describe, its meaning evolved in a particular field. In fact, even better, it evolved within a specific context, so all its previous uses stand; and the redefintion was far from ARBITRARY, since powers of 2 make sense to use in binary, and powers of 10 usually don't.

      Please try to get to grips with context in understanding language. It's a skill some engineers are very bad at; X in context A is not precisely X in context B. It never will be, because this sort of simplified reasoning abrogates the human brain's fantastic ability to recognise patterns without the need for identity.
    23. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by this+great+guy · · Score: 1
    24. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ambiguity was apparent long before someone went on the (stupid) crusade to introduce base 2 prefixes. 2^10 bytes were called a Kbyte ("Kaybyte"), not a kilobyte. A base-2 megabyte was known as an Mbyte ("Embyte"), which avoids the ambiguity in speech but not in writing. Things kinda broke down after that since its rarely important to know exactly how many bytes a Gbyte is. Where it's important, the exact number is given in bytes.

      People don't think in sector or page sizes anymore and nobody cares if a program uses 2^20 bytes or 10^6 bytes of RAM. Today the base 2 prefixes and the misappropriation of the SI prefixes only cause confusion. Their usefulness as "units" of aggregation which are actually used by computers is no longer important. Get over it.

    25. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      defined according to the SI system in C18

      Replying to my own post. Lest I sound completely clueless, my meaning there was to infer that the various prefixes were defined at the end of C18, in post-revolutionary France (i.e. not just "since the 1890s"); the SI was of course not to appear until last century. "According as" would have been correct; "according to" implies that the SI brought about the prefixes, which it did not - apologies.
    26. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by antdude · · Score: 1

      Marketing is always like that so you shouldn't trust it. Always research. There are always catches.

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    27. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So for like two weeks back in 1992, they were really screwing people over? Because they have all used the same convention since basically forever.

      (I guess if somebody had a 10 gigabyte file to store and bought a 10 gigabyte disk to store it on they would be pissed, but I'm willing to assume that that one guy got over it...)

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    28. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      Whenever I see MiB I run my alien ass away!

      --
      I hate printers.
    29. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by KoldKompress · · Score: 1

      Could be wrong, but I always thought Kilo = 1000, but it's 1000 in Base 2, making it 1024.

      It's the computer industry, information is measured in *Bytes, which is worked out in Base 2.

    30. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Hey asshole. You're the revisionist. Please do keep that in mind.

    31. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by jesup · · Score: 1
      User Sarenne on Wikipedia was running a (mostly) one-man campaign to replace all power-of-two MB/KB/etc with MiB/KiB/etc, with some support from others on the Manual of Style: Units and Numbers page. A while back someone had said they should use MiB/etc, the (small) number of people who frequent that style page agreed (after lots of argument), but not much changed, until Sarenne started a mass-change campaign, backed up by the consensus on the style page. Each time someone complained, they'd come there, complain, a few others would agree, and they'd be told "it's already been decided, it's been discussed to death, you lose". After a while, they'd go away, guaranteeing that there never would be enough of them around to change the consensus. Eventually, enough users were annoyed and stuck around to convince the MOS:UaN people to hold a poll, and Sarenne started going too far in forcing edits into pages and got himself banned. It looks like it finally got changed to:

      There is no consensus to use the newer IEC-recommended prefixes in Wikipedia articles to represent binary units. There is consensus that editors should not change prefixes from one style to the other, especially if there is uncertainty as to which term is appropriate within the context--one must be certain whether "100 GB" means binary not decimal units in the material at hand before equating it with 100 GiB. When this is certain, the use of parentheses for IEC binary prefixes, for example, 256 KB (KiB) is acceptable, as is the use of footnotes to disambiguate prefixes. When in doubt, stay with established usage in the article, and follow the lead of the first major contributor.
    32. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      You've missed a conjunction, and it's "you yourself are". If you're going to throw around words like "retarded" and talk about gene pool pollution, at least demonstrate that you passed high school.

      --
      I hate printers.
    33. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by DaveCar · · Score: 1


      Yeah, sadly though the "computer industry" is not an independant entity.

      For example telecommunications is tightly coupled to computers, so how do you square the use of kilo/mega/giga etc against bandwidth measurement? Telecoms is inherently physics, and physics surely does give a rat's ass about SI units.

      I do find it irksome to have to think about stuff in different way with these prefixes, but a sensible conversation about how to deal with it is called for, not childish hectoring and references to rodents backsides.

    34. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      I think you need to understand that you break the SI system when you do that, that's why the "i" started to be used because the original SI units were always intended to be used with powers of ten, not two. Your computer reports it in powers of two, which is why a drive that stores a trillion bytes only shows up as around 930 million bytes.

    35. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Tomfrh · · Score: 1

      Nope. A kilobyte is 1000 bytes. That's how it should have been from day one, but unfortunately some twit decided that 1024 bytes was close enough to 1000 bytes to give it the SI prefix for 1000. That's where all the trouble started.

      The SI units are the correct ones.

    36. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by ozbird · · Score: 1

      931GB should be enough for anyone...

    37. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Firehed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's absolutely no need for the power-of-two notation anymore, at least not when you're viewing the drive properties to check free space. The "mega", "giga", "tera", et al prefixes are globally defined to be powers-of-ten - 10^6, 10^9, and 10^12 respectively. If you want to keep with the old-school notation of 2^20, 2^30, and 2^40 respectively, be my guest, but don't complain when your numbers come up short.

      It's the operating systems - Windows, Mac OS and the *nixes alike that are mis-reporting drive size (or, rather, the units). I don't care who changes at the end of the day so long as the two are in parity so a "1TB" drive (be it 1TB or 1TiB) shows up as 1TB for my drive size in the OS. Sure, I'd prefer having extra space on the hard drive, but it's the OS writers that are truly at fault.

      I agree - the notation of the SI and binary units is completely moronic. But until someone changes, be it the OSs or the HDD manufacturers, don't expect things to start matching up.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    38. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Oops, I meant to say 930 billion, not 930 million.

    39. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by PineGreen · · Score: 1

      Well, you can expand binomial series as

      (1.024)^n = 1 + 0.024*n+O(0.024^2)

      and since exponential growth of capacity implies n linear with time it also means that the discrepancy is increasing linearly with time...

    40. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by TheCRAIGGERS · · Score: 1

      I very much disagree. All you're doing is moving the problem from the label on the hard-drive box to the drive-properties window in the OS.

      The point is, information is still stored in bytes. If I ask the OS to tell me how much space I have left on a partition, I want to know how much data I can fit on it. REALLY fit on it- and I don't want to have to do math in my head to figure it out.

      While I agree that this is an annoyance and we would all like it to be fixed, I don't think this is the way of going about it. While I won't come right out and say that "X should do Y!" I will ask this: Why are hard-drives the only storage media that uses SI units for size? Floppy disks and optical discs both use the 1024 notation on the boxes. Heck, if I remember right, even RAM does. Is there something about hard-drives that I don't know?

    41. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by achbed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that I know plenty of non-computer savvy people who walk into Staples, pick up a drive off the shelf, get it installed, and then ask "But why is the size different from what it says on the box?" I'm waiting for the 1TB (not TiB) drive to result in lawsuits over people not getting their promised 1TiB.

    42. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Whiteox · · Score: 1

      LOL - So if we ditch the metric, then we might as well use the British Imperial Units in the UK and the US Standard in the US, with proper conversion tables....

      So 1k = 1048335 grains if you do it by weight, or maybe 1000 US fluid ounces = 1040.84 Imperial Fluid Ounces.
      Now 1 grain = 64.7989 grams and if 1 cc = 1 ml = 1 gram (density of water), then.... ummm... hmmm... Where's my calculator?

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    43. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by XnavxeMiyyep · · Score: 1

      1000 in base 2 is 8. They actually just chose powers of two that were near the SI units.

      --
      I put the 't' in electrical engineering.
    44. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by swillden · · Score: 1

      Why are hard-drives the only storage media that uses SI units for size? Floppy disks and optical discs both use the 1024 notation on the boxes.

      This isn't true, and the reality is even more confusing. 1.44 MB floppy disks don't actually hold either 1.44*10^6 = 1,440,000 bytes or 1.44*2^20 = 1,509,950 bytes. Instead, their capacity is 1440*2^10 = 1,474,560 bytes. CD and DVD ROMs use the same base-10 notation as hard drives, BUT, the actual capacities aren't nice multiples, and even vary a little bit, so the values printed on the label are rounded off. For example, a single-layer DVD-R holds 4,707,319,808 bytes, so the value printed on the label is 4.7 GB.

      Heck, if I remember right, even RAM does. Is there something about hard-drives that I don't know?

      RAM is really the special case here. Because of the way processors address RAM, it actually makes sense for RAM to be measured in powers of two. Most network technologies aren't inherently binary, so they should (and do) use SI prefixes with the standard meanings. RAM is really the only place where power-of-two measurement makes sense. You can debate the merits of using SI or binary measurements on file sizes -- personally, I think OS userlands should present disk capacities and file sizes in SI units and eliminate the confusion that way. Barring that, I'm okay if userland tools properly use SI vs standardized binary units (MB vs MiB) so that I don't have to wonder which is being used this time. I just think using the SI units throughout would be less confusing to those who don't understand the difference.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    45. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Firehed · · Score: 1

      But the problem IS the drive properties label.

      Floppies may have used 1024 notation for size, I couldn't say - it's been years since I've used one, and have no intention of digging one out to try proving a point (you know what they say about winning an online argument). But DVDs most definitely use SI notation, as hard drives do, for storage space: "4.7GB" is 4,700,000,000 bytes - 4.37"GB" as reported by the OS.

      You're correct about RAM - "1GB" of physical RAM is reported as "1GB". Technically speaking, both are labeled wrong (as they're both binary, not decimal), but you're getting what you paid for and it's showing up as advertised, so no harm's done. This is what should happen with hard drives and optical media. I wouldn't give a rat's behind if they patched it so all files get "bigger" and the hard drive shows up as the amount that you bought (even if it isn't) just so you feel better. The inconsistency is incredibly annoying, but it's absolutely the fault of the software designers and not of the hard drive manufacturers.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    46. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Sancho · · Score: 1

      I think that disk space on the OS level is still dealt with in powers of 2, ultimately. Legal block-size values for ext3 are 1024, 2048, or 4096 bytes per block (from the mkfs.ext3 man page.) NTFS has a default cluster size of 4096 bytes. Even if there is no internal need to use powers of 2 (and I'm not making this claim because I'm not sure that there isn't a good reason), that's how it's done now, and changing things would just cause worse confusion. Hundreds of software applications that deal with disk assume that things will be dealt with in powers of 2. An update to the OS would be a massive change, because I'm sure that any shortcuts and optimizations are contingent upon power of 2 addressing. I think it's here to stay on the OS level.

    47. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by swillden · · Score: 1

      I think that disk space on the OS level is still dealt with in powers of 2, ultimately.

      Yes, and it likely always will be, because disk storage always ends up getting loaded into RAM, and it makes a lot of sense to structure things so that the mapping from disk blocks to memory pages is straightforward.

      That's a separate issue from userland presentation of file sizes and space, however.

      An update to the OS would be a massive change, because I'm sure that any shortcuts and optimizations are contingent upon power of 2 addressing.

      Actually, most of the Linux tools I use support SI notation for presentation of file sizes and disk capacity. On the command line, all of the GNU tools provide the "--si" switch, and many of the GUI applications I use also provide a configuration option, and there's been discussion by KDE developers of providing a global switch for all KDE apps. Of course, getting everything changed over for complete consistency is a huge task, but complete consistency isn't a primary goal on Linux anyway :-)

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    48. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by CeramicNuts · · Score: 1

      I don't understand that MiB thing either, as MB suffices for both megabyte and mebibyte.

    49. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Sobrique · · Score: 1

      1000 in base 2 isn't 1024 :). It's 8. Kilo = 1000 = 10^3 Kilo in computing terms = 2^10

    50. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For years and years and years we've used 1024
      And we were wrong to do it. Metric prefixes meant base 10 for "years and years and years" before people started trying to use them for base 2. In every industry, and part of the computer industry, metric prefixes mean base 10.

      Why fight the rest of the world over this? Now that we have binary prefixes, let's use them! This idea that metric prefixes are base 10 in networking and base 2 in storage is embarrassingly inconsistent. Let binary prefixes mean binary, and let metric prefixes mean base 10! Just because we did it one way in the past doesn't mean it is the best way to do it now! This is engineering, not religion.
      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    51. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pedants that think this comment is insightful always piss me off.

      It's been at least a decade, maybe more, since hard drives tried to use powers of two. And it's not marketing BS. In fact, there's absolutely no reason for hard drives to measure size in powers of two.

      Computer memories traditionally have and still do measure size in powers of two because digital logic is binary, and memories have a certain number of address lines. If you have 16 bits of address space, you have 2^16 words of memory. If your memory is byte-addressable then you have a power-of-two number of bytes. (Note that historically, many popular computers did not have a word size that was itself a power of two -- you could find 36-bit or 60-bit words -- so it's not even a matter of ironclad tradition that even memory sizes are powers-of-two in bytes.) There's very little reason to run an address line to a chip, yet not fill out the bits that line could address. So, memory devices come in powers-of-two.

      Hard disks, on the other hand, have no such constraints. They consist of a number of platters, not always a power of two (and the reason they often are is because the numbers are so small. 1, 2, and 4 platters, happens to be powers of two, but there's no reason not to imagine 6 or 9 platter drives). Each platter has a number of cylinders, which is hardly ever a power of two. The number of cylinders is dictated not by number of address lines, but simply the width the head can manage to discriminate and the radius of the platter. Similarly, each track is divided into a number of sectors. Again, the number of sectors is not a power of two, but is determined by the maximum frequency the read/write head can manage on that medium and the rotational speed of the drive. None of these numbers is likely to be a power of two.

      The only way to get a drive capacity to be an exact power of two would be to round down to the next even power that the drive physics can actually support. This would mean giving up a significant amount of potential capacity, the more so as drive sizes increase. It makes a lot more sense to push the drive to its actual physical capacity. And since that number isn't at all likely to be a power-of-two, there's no point in using a much less common base unit to report the size. Powers of ten are just as good as any other base; all the bases are uncorrelated with the drive physics, and people just happen to normally work in base ten. So for hard drives, base ten it is.

      Incidentally, the "it's computers, we always use powers of two" argument is similarly bogus. It applies to nothing but memory sizes. If I order 1000 computers from Dell, I don't expect to get 1024. If I run a SQL query to pull the first 1000 rows from a table, I don't expect to get 1024. If I write "if (i = 2000) printf "Y2K!!!!", I don't expect to wait until the year 2048 to see problems. It's just simply not the case that the all-knowing computer insiders always use power of two numbers. There's just one special case where we do.

    52. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by nbauman · · Score: 1

      A pint's a pound the world around,
      and damn all foreign measures!

    53. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by clarkcox3 · · Score: 2, Informative

      So? "Byte" is not an SI unit.

      KB, MB, GB, TB, etc. have had a well-defined meaning for decades (probably over a half century by now). According to The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English:

      n. Comput. a unit of memory or data equal to 1,024 (2^10) bytes.

      ... so get over it, a kilobyte is 1024 bytes.

      --
      There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
    54. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      This marketing BS always pisses me off. For years and years and years we've used 1024 in the computer world, since it's a power of 2, and computers deal with powers of 2. A 931GB drive is NOT a 1TB drive. And we don't need new stupid labels like tebi, we just need storage manufacturers to stop being retards. Yeah! And I'm really pissed off that my Gigabit-Ethernet card is not a real gigabit either, that's a whole 73,741,824bps that I'm not getting. And my 3GHz cpu is a rip too, it's missing a massivefreaking 221,225,472Hz, what I gotta overclock my cpu to get the advertised performance?

      Stupid retards!
    55. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by BlueHands · · Score: 1

      I surmise from the post that the premise is that common usage, using powers of 2, should take precedent over trying to force a new artificial standard in place. Interesting take but to me it seems to contain it's own rebuttal.

      Common usage today IS a new standard. That is to say that now that megabyte and gigabyte are understood by the "common man" to mean powers of 10 and that there are far more of them then computer geeks hence it becomes the new standard. Common usage now is that 1 GB of memory is 1000 MB as far as most people understand. You might not (or you might!) like it but there are few people who will say that 1GB is 1024 MB.

      Let us not forget that in the above example you gave they are VERY vague terms that can not have a simple number attached - they are more feeling than number. A SUV sized cat is an order or two magnitude off what most people mean by "huge cat" while that is not the case with 1000 vs. 1024.

      AND powers of 10 are more natural for most people today.

      AND data is the only case where i can think of the power notion being different. Having a one megahertz computer with one megabyte memory should be clear and consistent.

      AND (!!) having 2 separate notion system (MB and MiB) avoid confusion. If a number is list as MiB I can know exactly how many bits are being talked about. With one standard the term gets overloaded and causes confusion even amongst people who know what they are doing.

      And what are the advantages, today, of keeping with an outdated way of referring to powers of 2 instead of powers of 10 ONLY in the one area of storage?

      --
      I mod everyone down who says "I'll get modded down for this." I hate to disappoint.
    56. Re:tebi? shut up. 1 terabyte drive still NOT here by Eivind · · Score: 1

      Yeah. But it means that the difference between the two numbers grow -- not only in absolute numbers, but also as a fraction. People are generally willing to consider two numbers that really differ by a single-digit-percentage as being "similar", this changes when over time the numbers grow more and more different. Currently few people know or care about the difference. I predice that'll change over time. Ignoring 2-5% of difference is one thing, it's harder to ignore when one number is 25 larger than the other. (granted, that'll take time, you need 1024**9 for that, and currently with TB we're only at 1024**4 if we double every year (which is probably optimistic) it'll take 50 years. If we double every 2 years, it'll take 100 years.)

  13. base 1024 by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    Since when do we use base 1024 for counting anything but RAM? Network cards, harddisk capacity, etc. seems to me is ordinary prefixes a thousand at a time. Why the author has to go into an elaborate explanation on how you were ripped off seems pretty silly to me.

    Maybe because a few OSes decide to measure overall filesystem capacity that way, but that doesn't make it right. It really only makes sense to measure files that way when you are dealing with memory mapped files, something users are almost never aware of. So why expose those nitty gritty details to the user? Throwback to an era of systems that had drive letters I suppose.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:base 1024 by iamdrscience · · Score: 1

      Throwback to an era of systems that had drive letters I suppose.
      You mean like, today?

      Just because you don't care about Windows doesn't mean that it isn't running on countless millions of computers right now, drive letters and all.
    2. Re:base 1024 by normuser · · Score: 1

      base 1024
      Since when do we use base 1024 for counting anything but RAM?

      Since when do we use base 1024 for ANYTHING?
      Now base-2 on the other hand...
      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
      XXX#######
    3. Re:base 1024 by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      You realize that all non-removable media can be a single drive letter on Windows right? It's trivial to configure on win2k-XP. I assume Vista is the same (it might even be easier)

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    4. Re:base 1024 by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      how is kilobyte base-2 when it's either 1024 or 1000 ? I think your definition of base is perhaps too narrow.

      It's 1110100011100000101100110000000000000000 bytes?

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    5. Re:base 1024 by llirik · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You realize that all non-removable media can be a single drive letter on Windows right? It's trivial to configure on win2k-XP Yeah, except for a small caveat that even Microsoft installers can't deal with it. I had to go back to letters once Visual Studio 2005 refused to install claiming there is not enough space, while in fact there was plenty of space at the mount point where I wanted it to install, but it stubbornly insisted for checking space at the root.
    6. Re:base 1024 by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > Since when do we use base 1024 for counting anything but RAM?

      In the days of the Apple II people and marketing used power of 2 for both ram and storage, as it's quite impractical to do otherwise when you worked so close to the metal (apple commodore and spectrum users often knew the address of ram and rom blocks for their machine).

      Then some clever biz heads started using power of 10, but it was several years later.

      Unfortunately, using the kilo- mega- etc. prefixes is accurate for base 10.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    7. Re:base 1024 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mountains and mountains of fail. What did such a low UID cost on ebay anyway?

    8. Re:base 1024 by MLease · · Score: 1

      Base 1024 would mean that 10 in that base is equal to decimal 1024. You'd be hard-pressed to come up with enough single characters to represent all the digits from 1 to 10-1 in that base! :)

      -Mike

      --
      I'm sorry; I don't know what I was thinking!
    9. Re:base 1024 by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Feel free to read about base if you care, but I doubt you do.

      (what's with the random bolding of words?)

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    10. Re:base 1024 by normuser · · Score: 1

      Feel free to read about base if you care, but I doubt you do.

      That site, I dont think it says what you think it says.

      A real number can be represented using any integer number as a base (sometimes also called a radix or scale). The choice of a base yields to a representation of numbers known as a number system. In base , the digits 0, 1, ..., are used (where, by convention, for bases larger than 10, the symbols A, B, C, ... are generally used as symbols representing the decimal numbers 10, 11, 12, ...).


      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
      XXX#######
    11. Re:base 1024 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      from the same site in the grandparent post:

      The base of a logarithm is a number b used to define the number system in which the logarithm is computed. In general, the logarithm of a number x in base b is written log_bx. The symbol logx is an abbreviation regrettably used both for the common logarithm log_(10)x (by engineers and physicists and indicated on pocket calculators) and for the natural logarithm log_ex (by mathematicians). lnx denotes the natural logarithm log_ex (as used by engineers and physicists and indicated on pocket calculators), and lgx denotes log_2x. In this work, the notations logx==log_(10)x and lnx==log_ex are used.

      To convert between logarithms in different bases, the formula
      log_bx==(lnx)/(lnb)

    12. Re:base 1024 by MLease · · Score: 1
      Feel free to read about base if you care, but I doubt you do.

      Ok, I read it. As far as I can tell, it said basically the same thing I did, just more rigorously. From your link:

      In base b, the digits 0, 1, ..., |b|-1 are used (where, by convention, for bases larger than 10, the symbols A, B, C, ... are generally used as symbols representing the decimal numbers 10, 11, 12, ...).
      If we plug 1024 into b, we get 0, 1, ..., 1023. Accordingly, one needs 1024 digits to represent all non-negative integers less than 1024 base 10, and 1024 base 10 == 10 base 1024.


      (what's with the random bolding of words?)

      Just emphasis; imagine that we are speaking face to face, and that I'm speaking the bolded words slightly louder. :)

      -Mike
      --
      I'm sorry; I don't know what I was thinking!
    13. Re:base 1024 by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      I don't think that it improves your communication to do so. Even when I imagine you verbally emphasizing words it doesn't make sense.

      And you did not recognize what a logarithm base was? Why are we even quibbling of the definition of base, what point does it even have. If you don't like my use of the word "base", then please suggest a better word. Either by literal definition or by metaphor it makes sense.

      series of 1024 magnitudes can be thought of as 2^(10*n) or 1024^n. The first would be base-2 obviously, the second is .. I don't have a name for it that we can agree on. (as a side note, series of 1000 magnitudes can be thought of as 10^(3*n) or 1000^n).

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  14. 32mb of cache... woohoo... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Drive caches were 2MB for so frickin' long, I have to wonder whether the upgrades we are seeing now are actually being forced by memory manufacturers phasing out uselessly small RAM chip sizes.

    1. Re:32mb of cache... woohoo... by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Well, when you can only slam 4kb of data into the drive bus at any one time, it doesn't require a whole lot of cache to keep up.

    2. Re:32mb of cache... woohoo... by Datamonstar · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Computers have been slowly turing (funny Frueidian typo, honest) into overly-equipped money sinks ever since hardware graphics acceleration became mainstream. I've recently been surprised by what all I can do with only 512MB of system memory and the Intel onboard graphics chipset.

      --
      The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
    3. Re:32mb of cache... woohoo... by JohnnyBigodes · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm sure those 512MB of RAM will really get you anywhere when working on some images program for any purposes other than maybe adjusting brightness and contrast. I'm sure they're also going to be very useful when you have a web browser open with a dozen tabs, your e-mail client, a word processor, a spreadsheet, your IM program, maybe some MP3 fun, your antivirus program in the background, etc etc. and some other stuff. Oh I'm sure it can have those open, but it's loads of fun when you do a heavier operation or something similar and the disk starts thrashing up, down, and sideways.

      I'm sure those 512MB will be even more useful when you're using Photoshop/GIMP/whatever-image-program-you-use-here and work up some real images. I'm sure they'll be just GREAT when you start editing sound files, maybe doing a couple of mixes. And I'm sure they'll be FABULOUS when you get into 3D stuff with all those hundred-megabyte modules with a couple gigabytes of textures.

      Oh, by the way, some people actually (shock! awe!) play GAMES on their computers. I'm sure 512MB are downright delightful for basically anything from two years now on. And those Intel integrated graphics, man! Look at those super-high resolutions and the great textures! Actually, I hear they're using that kind of hardware on the latest-generation consoles! Oh wait...

      Just because 512MB and integrated graphics are more than good enough for *you*, doesn't mean that the most of the world doesn't need better hardware for most purposes.

    4. Re:32mb of cache... woohoo... by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 1

      "Computers have been slowly turing ... into overly-equipped money sinks ever since.."

      You mean the price has gone up? Do you have any idea what computers used to cost in the 60's, 70's or 80's? or even in the 90's compared to today? The price trend is downwards. If you have been spending more it is because you can afford to spend more and simply want a more powerful machine.

      If you want to really be impressed you should see what this little computer can do for less then $2. http://www.atmel.com/products/AVR/ It can't run Linux but it can be programmed with gcc and the GNU tool chain. The little chip is almost as powerfull as the VAX750 I used in the early 80's

  15. Visit our site! by Zebedeu · · Score: 4, Funny

    The Tech Report has tested the 7K1000's performance, noise levels, and power consumption against 18other drives to find out, with surprising results. Suspense!

    Come on! Just tell us what the results were directly, don't make us have to break Slashdot law and RTFA!
    1. Re:Visit our site! by LarsG · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've RTFA, and still don't get what the 'surprising results' is supposed to be.

      It has huge capacity - check.
      It is noisy and sucks power - check.
      It is not a speed champion - check.

      Not exactly surprising for the first 1TB drive on the market.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    2. Re:Visit our site! by cerelib · · Score: 1

      I think they were expecting better performance for two reasons; it is one of the newest drives on the market and it has a precedent setting 32 MB of on-drive cache. The fact that this drive can be outperformed by older, cheaper drives is crucial information in purchasing decisions. Their conclusion really says it all, that you should really only buy this drive if you absolutely need the extra capacity.

  16. Conclusion in the article: by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 4, Informative

    Conclusion in the article: Too expensive.

    1. Re:Conclusion in the article: by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 1

      The real reason this is good news is that it is a sign that 750GB drives should start dropping in price soon. 500GB drives offer a much better GB/$ ratio than 750GB drives at the moment.

  17. RAID 6 Please by the_doctor_23 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Make that RAID-6. With consumer grade drives I would not want to see a second drive die during a RAID-5 rebuild.
    For example a 3ware 9650SE-8LPML can be had for as little $520.

    --
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan
    1. Re:RAID 6 Please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because it isn't safer, at least not unless you have a battery-backed interface card *anyway*. And usually the only cards with battery-backing are... hardware raid cards. I have been known to use linux-md on an old hardware raid card, when the card had a very slow processor. But these days, raid cards have processors in the 300-600 MHz range, AND ASIC or FPGAs to do parity. They're more than adequate.

      Also, linux-md doesn't guarantee ordering, which hardware-raid cards, as they're intended for use with oracle and friends, do.

    2. Re:RAID 6 Please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The major disadvantage with hardware raid cards, though, is proprietary/undocumented on-disk formats. That sucks.

    3. Re:RAID 6 Please by Spazmania · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Depends on the raid card. I run about 80 servers with a mix of HP/Compaq SmartArray, Adaptec aacraid, LSI Megaraid and Linux MD raid systems.

      The Adaptec and LSI Megaraid cards are truly heinous. Just last week I had a system that wouldn't boot because the megaraid card decided that the NVRAM and on-disk settings didn't match... Even though the "force boot" option was set. Force-boot is supposed to write the on-disk config to nvram on a mismatch. As often as not, a machine with a megaraid card crashes on a single-disk failure instead of continuing to operate minus one disk. It'll reboot fine but not before you lose the unwritten data and deal with filesystem corruption. And God help you if a second disk develops a bad spot... It won't do the best it can to rebuild; it'll simply flunk leaving the good portions of the data unrecoverable.

      I'll match Linux MD against those cards for reliability purposes any day. I wish there was some hardware I could buy that enhanced it with a battery-backed cache and parity acceleration. Then I could throw away the megaraid and adaptec cards.

      The SmartArray cards are actually very good. Expensive as hell, but good. Sadly the primary configuration utility is on a CD instead of in the bios and some goober at HP decided to rig the disc so it won't boot on any hardware that's not HP/Compaq. Fortunately you can boot Knoppix, copy the linux config utilities and configure it that way.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    4. Re:RAID 6 Please by kill-1 · · Score: 1

      The mentioned 3ware card is a hardware RAID controller, and a battery unit is available.

      http://www.google.com/search?q=9650se+battery+unit

    5. Re:RAID 6 Please by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "Depends on the raid card."

      The frustrating thing about raid cards though is that you'd like to make a one time investment, not every decade or so when interface formats change (ISA--> PCI --> PCI-E).

      I have an older fast-track RAID-5 card I just got a few years ago, if PCI slots all but disappear on the next socket change/processor or two, then I will be a little annoyed.

    6. Re:RAID 6 Please by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Don't worry about it, you'll be fine. I know of atleast one LGA775 board with an ISA slot if you absolutely must use that 20 year old expansion card with that new Core 2 system. While I haven't seen that particular board in use, I have seen it's slightly older Socket 478 cousin in the flesh running some specialized test equipment.

    7. Re:RAID 6 Please by MicklePickle · · Score: 1

      I agree with this. Linux MD for ultimate flexibility. You can transport drives around if a system dies. This is fantastic for home use, but there's nothing like hardware RAID when you've got great gobs of money.In a corporate setting.
      Mind you. I've just recently revamped my raid setup with solaris and ZFS. Now that is ultimate flexibility! Endianless. I can grow the raid just by adding a disk. Perfect!.

      --
      -- main(s){printf(s="main(s){printf(s=%c%s%c,34,s,34) ;}",34,s,34);} $p='$p=%c%s%
  18. 32 MB cache? by dabadab · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is there any point to these "huge" caches? My Linux system uses a few hundred MB's as disk cache so I don't really expext another few MB's on the disk to make any noticable difference (and, if I recall it correctly, when disks with 8 MB caches were new they did not really gave any performance advantage compared to models with only 2 MB of cache).

    --
    Real life is overrated.
    1. Re:32 MB cache? by dargaud · · Score: 2, Interesting

      s there any point to these "huge" caches? Depends on your use... I work with a lot of images and my drive has a 16Mb cache. When I save an image that's <16Mb, it's almost instant and I can start work on the next one. If the image is >16Mb, it takes a good 5~15 seconds for the drive to thrash around until it's saved it. For me, yeas, a large cache makes a difference as most of my images are in the 10~50Mb range.
      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    2. Re:32 MB cache? by dabadab · · Score: 1

      That's probably because write-back caching is enabled on your HDD but disabled in your OS (that's the default with Linux). Turning on write-back caching on your OS which will probably will make much more difference than a larger HDD cache.

      However, write-back caching is dangerous, since in case of a power failure, it may seriously damage your filesystem.

      --
      Real life is overrated.
    3. Re:32 MB cache? by Nasarius · · Score: 1

      However, write-back caching is dangerous, since in case of a power failure, it may seriously damage your filesystem.
      It is extraordinarily rare for a journaled filesystem (including NTFS) to be seriously damaged. The design simply prevents the filesystem from being left in an inconsistent state, as long as the journal is replayed the next time the FS is mounted. Of course, data loss is quite possible.
      --
      LOAD "SIG",8,1
    4. Re:32 MB cache? by dabadab · · Score: 1

      I have only seen this on write back caching vs journaled filesystems (ext3 and reiser) and while it's almost four years it seems that wb caching CAN damage journaling filesystems (probably because the journal itself is also only partially written)

      --
      Real life is overrated.
    5. Re:32 MB cache? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I save an image that's <16Mb, it's almost instant and I can start work on the next one.


      Is it really saved then? If it's sitting in the cache and the power goes out, what do you get back the next time you try to open it?
    6. Re:32 MB cache? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a fix. Mount with barrier=1 mount option and you can use write back caching safely.

  19. They may have meant 24 k by FoamingToad · · Score: 2, Informative

    But they'd have still been way off.

    For a decimal megabyte versus a binary one, there's 48 1/2 KB difference.

    For a gigabyte, there's about 70 megabytes difference.

    The only case where you'd only lose 24 bytes would be if you had a kilobyte drive.

    F_T

    1. Re:They may have meant 24 k by kill-1 · · Score: 1

      One should look at the relative numbers:

      HDD manufacturer KB = 97.7% of binary KB
      HDD manufacturer MB = 95.4% of binary MB
      HDD manufacturer GB = 93.1% of binary GB
      HDD manufacturer TB = 90.9% of binary TB

      We're getting ripped off more and more ;)

  20. Fills up too fast anyways by emj · · Score: 3, Funny

    The problem is this will be full in 24h with a 100Mbps connection anyways, or ~6 hours if you live in sweden.

    1. Re:Fills up too fast anyways by joke_dst · · Score: 5, Funny

      No matter how big a hard drive gets it still only has two states: new and full.

    2. Re:Fills up too fast anyways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why you make a RAID -- so that the two states are empty and degraded (cuz you took a parity drive out standalone for storage).

    3. Re:Fills up too fast anyways by raynet · · Score: 1

      Third stage is faulty which activates just before making a backup.

      --
      - Raynet --> .
  21. cat got my tongue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yes, but does it Destroy Planets ?

  22. exactly, highly annoying and unnecessary by _Shorty-dammit · · Score: 1

    Stuff like that gets on my nerves to no end. So pointless.

  23. Meaningful tests? by mrkh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not that convinced by the testing methods here. The boot and load times page shows 20 seconds difference between the slowest and fastest drives which they barely comment on, and yet the drive with the slowest boot time is among the quickest when loading Far Cry and Doom 3? Something is not right there.

    And if they're really timing level loads with a stopwatch, why on earth are they quoting 2 decimal places (and besides, the variability in reaction time is accounting for most of the supposed differences in any case). Half of their tests don't appear to tell anybody anything significant, and the most worthwhile page in there is the conclusion. Pretty graphics though.

    1. Re:Meaningful tests? by bjourne · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Their testing methods is pretty weird and their results doesn't show anything it all. Caviar SE16 is really fast on one test and then slow at another. Instead of benchmarking how fast Doom 3 loads a level or how fast Windows boots, it would have been much more interesting to see some low-level performance tests. How fast can the disk write 1k bytes to 1000 10k bytes spread out on the disk when it is full? Synchronously? Test the same thing for reads. Such tests would have tested the seek times for the disks in different scenarios which is much more interesting than reading or writing huge chunks of data.

    2. Re:Meaningful tests? by Barny · · Score: 1

      My personal favourite bit was when they make the comment that "so the NCQ-less Western Digital Caviar SE16 250GB and Raptor WD740GD should have a slight disadvantage here under higher loads" now as soon as I saw that I knew they were full of something, a 10k rpm drive slower than a 7200 in IO/s?

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
    3. Re:Meaningful tests? by tknd · · Score: 1

      Yeah the tests are pretty lame. I'd like to see a full disk write/read graph and benchmarks that actually exploit the structure/capabilities of the disk. For example if I create a partition with the first 10% of the disk, how will performance on that partition compare to the last 10%? The answer is pretty obvious (the first 10% will have better than the last 10%, duh!) but the question is by how much. That sets the boundaries for best and worst case write speeds when the disk is written to sequentially.

  24. Nothing new, then by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nothing new, then. At this point 1 TB may sound like "that much data", but then so did a 40 MB drive waaay back. Heck, at one point 1.4 MB meant a hard drive the size of a large washing machine. Nowadays that's called a floppy and already outdated.

    What I'm getting at is that it's sorta like "Moore's law" for hard drives. (And occasionally Murphy's law too;) What's "whoa, I'd hate to lose that much data" at one point, is just adequate in a couple of years, and not even enough for your system files and/or swap file in 20 years.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  25. You shouldn't use Linux then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Linux kernel is full of this marketing BS.

  26. The value of consistent nomenclature by Valacosa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nobody gives a rat's ass about "the SI unit." These are computers.
    Yeah. Making nomenclature consistent across industries is damned inconvenient! Why bother?

    Look, I hate marketing dishonesty as much as the next guy, but borrowing the SI prefixes honestly does nothing but add confusion. Hard drives are easy, because one can safely assume that the marketing 'tards went with whatever number was bigger. But what about my phone's data plan? Aside from the whole kB vs kb thing, how do I know which definition of "kilo" my provider has gone with? Do they consider themselves with the "computer industry" or with the rest of the world? And (this is the best question), will the not-very-well-paid support grunt even know the difference?

    Would you like it if you agreed to sell a dozen POS systems to a bakery, only to be told after the contract, "Sorry sir. This is the baking industry. You agreed to give us thirteen systems." Or if you got a $30 bill from your ISP with the explanation, "This is the computer industry. Though our adverts say this plan is $30 a month, that's hex. In base-ten dollars, you owe us $48."

    You hate marketing people skewing reality. Good. It is only through fighting ambiguity that they can be stopped from getting away with this.

    Do you know the difference between a pipe and a tube? If you get into any business involving either, I hope you don't repurpose the words everyone else has settled upon.

    You think you're right, but you're not.
    It's that extra bit of humility that really makes your post shine.
    --
    "Live as if you'll die tomorrow." Ridiculous. You could die later today.
    1. Re:The value of consistent nomenclature by xanalogical · · Score: 1

      > Yeah. Making nomenclature consistent across industries
      > is damned inconvenient! Why bother?

      Heh, the computer industry has problems enough with terminology that is never going get fixed.

        - Our floppies are no longer floppy.
        - Why are ROMs called "read-only memory" but RAMs are not called
            "read-write memory"?
        - And why "random access memory" when ROMs are (usually) randomly
            accessible as well?
        - And the word "computer" for something that does so much more
            in today's world - yes machine code is "computing" in the
            technical sense but a better word could have been used for
            these machines.
        - And now we call removable solid-state storage "flash drives"
            but flash doesn't have to be removable and I suspect when we
            have holographic storage crystals we'll probably still call
            them "flash drives" by tradition.

    2. Re:The value of consistent nomenclature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect when we have holographic storage crystals we'll probably still call them "flash drives" by tradition. Chances are, that flashes of [coherent laser] light will be involved there. "Flash drive" if anything would make more sense there.
    3. Re:The value of consistent nomenclature by carou · · Score: 1

      Do you know the difference between a pipe and a tube? If you get into any business involving either, I hope you don't repurpose the words everyone else has settled upon.

      Sure, a pipe connects stdout from one process to stdin of another, whereas a tube was a simple character output device on the Acorn micros.

      They also drive teh inerwebs.
    4. Re:The value of consistent nomenclature by RESPAWN · · Score: 1

      Or if you got a $30 bill from your ISP with the explanation, "This is the computer industry. Though our adverts say this plan is $30 a month, that's hex. In base-ten dollars, you owe us $48." That's a good idea. I wonder if I can patent it.
      --

      If Murphy's Law can go wrong, it will.

    5. Re:The value of consistent nomenclature by Sancho · · Score: 1

      -The 'disk' in 'floppy disk' refers to the internal disk. On hard drives, the platters really are quite hard. On floppy disks, remove the outer shell, and they are quite definitely flexible.

      -RAM is an acronym for "Random Access Memory." It is not a direct opposite of ROM. Random access implies no appreciable speed loss when accessing any given portion of the memory. RAM, as a term, counters such technologies as tape drives, which incur a huge penalty for seeking.

      -Again, they're not opposites. Some ROMs can be accessed in the manner of RAM.

      -The same can be said for every evolving technology. Automobiles these days often do far more than just getting you from one place to another. They can include entertainment options (CD/DVD player), navigation options (GPS), comfort options (reclining seats, climate control), etc. Gaming consoles these days may also act as media centers and portals. Your watch may have a calculator on it, and your phone may be able to access the Internet.

      -At least one of your points isn't really relevant. We still call it flash if it's not removable. That's why my digital camera has 64MB of built-in flash memory. Some people probably will still call new technologies "flash drives", however I prefer "thumb drive" anyway. I guess in your pedantic world, you'll complain that it isn't the size of your thumb, or that it isn't in the shape of a thumb, or some such nonsense.

    6. Re:The value of consistent nomenclature by gold23 · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Making nomenclature consistent across industries is damned inconvenient! Why bother?
      Heh, the computer industry has problems enough with terminology that is never going get fixed.

      GP did not say he wanted the nomenclature to make sense, or be intuitive -- just consistent.

      --
      Trust not a man who's rich in flax / His morals may be sadly lax
    7. Re:The value of consistent nomenclature by epine · · Score: 1

      Lot's of people care about the difference between decimal SI and the binary expropriation of SI, and I'm a card carrying member of the MB=1024 society.

      If I'm in a conversation with people who purport to know something (some level of computer industry insider) then they had better demonstrate two things: that binary units are assumed in such a context unless otherwise stated, and that enumeration begins with zero, or I'm likely to flip the bozo-bit on that person.

      In a more rarified context, the other parties had better understand that short-circuit evaluation is assumed for predicate expressions (consider: if (p != NULL && *p == c) which is otherwise illegal), that semi-open intervals eliminate fence-post errors, and the only sane definition of r = x mod y for integer x and positive integer y satisfies the post-condition that r is on the interval [0..y), and that malloc(0) returns a valid pointer *distinct* from any other currently allocated memory block. Apparently, bozos have occassionally infiltrated the language standardization committee of Your Favorite Language(TM).

      In a truly rarified context (perhaps myself only), it would also be understood that if you can rewrite the condition tree:
          if (x == a) {
          }
          else
          if (x == b) {
          }
          else
          if (x == c) {
          }

      As the following:

          if (x == a) {
          }
          if (x == b) {
          }
          if (x == c) {
          }

      Without changing the *logic* of your program, the original construct might be syntactically nested in the view of your compiler, but it sure as heck isn't semantically nested. If your compiler recognizes the predicates as fully disjoint (without side-effects), it probably rewrites the later as the former internally.

      How much of that should I assume from the average visitor to Wikipedia?

      In mixed contexts, which includes both insiders and outsiders, the safe bet is to be specific about the difference between MiB and MB. Wikipedia is written to the ultimate mixed crowd: any person on the planet who can puzzle out some text in one of the world's major languages. It's total arrogance to assume that internal industry norms should prevail in such a context. That said, I'm quite comfortable if the article states its conventions in a footnote, or parathetically in each instance, or just spells it out each time.

      I have zero tolerance for making light of the distinction, wide latitude in how the distinction is honored.

  27. O RLY? by _Shorty-dammit · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/ibm/WD A-L42S-40MB-3-5-HH-IDE-AT.html Hard Drive: IBM: WDA-L42S 40MB 3.5"/HH IDE / AT Cylinders: 1067 Heads: 2 Sectors per track: 39 Bytes per sector: 512 1067 * 2 * 39 * 512 = 42,611,712 bytes 42,611,712 / 1024 = 41613 kilobytes 41613 kilobytes = just over 40.6 megabytes This was sold as a 40MB drive. Not a 41MB, 42MB, or 43MB drive. A 40MB drive. And that's just what it was, a 40MB drive. So, I'm sorry to tell you, but lying about the drive's size was *NOT* always the way it was. This is just one example. And, no, I don't care for finding out exactly when manufacturers started lying about capacity. They did, and that's enough for me.

    1. Re:O RLY? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think that the '40 megabyte' branding is just rounding to a multiple of ten... but anyway, the first commercial hard disk, the IBM 305, had a capacity of five megabytes - five million bytes, exactly - and was sold as such. Actually, it could have held more, but marketing thought that five megabytes was a nice round number. (Some of the space was taken for error correction, though.)

      (The long series of calculations you have to go through in your post are the best argument for ditching the 1024*1024*1024 nonsense and just using thousands, millions and billions like the rest of the world.)

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    2. Re:O RLY? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Think in binary all you want - having binary prefixes for 1024, 1024^2, 1024^3, 1024^4 and so on is probably a good idea. But don't misuse the standard kilo-, mega-, giga-, tera-. Since 1024^3 is not the same as 1000^3, it should get a different prefix. Because the prefix kilo- is already taken (and was defined as 1000 long before digital computers were invented), we need to use some other prefix to mean 1024.

      In a way it is misleading to expect 'the components to act the same way' when talking about disks or network cards. Unlike RAM, disks don't have a power-of-two organization and there is no particular reason why blocks of 2^23 bits are more appropriate than any other size for measuring capacity.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    3. Re:O RLY? by markov_chain · · Score: 1

      I think I speak for a lot of folks when I say you will have to pry the power-of-2 meaning of standard SI prefixes when used for information capacity from my cold dead fingers!

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    4. Re:O RLY? by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      they aren't lying, you are just an idiot

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  28. partition != drive by tolomea · · Score: 1

    From the article:

    "File copying is tested twice: once with the source and target on the same partition, and once with the target on a separate partition."

    I really don't see how that's going to make any difference, unless by "separate partition" they really mean "separate drive".

    1. Re:partition != drive by tolomea · · Score: 1

      Guess not: "FC-Test's second wave of copy tests involves copying files from one partition to another on the same drive." Although I think I get it now, they are probably trying to make the heads seek a long way across the platter.

    2. Re:partition != drive by shird · · Score: 1

      By copying files on the same parition, it only requires a change in the file table entry. Which is just a few bytes, the file itself stays where it is on the drive. By copying to a different partition, the full file needs to be read and written in its entireity to another location.

      --
      I.O.U One Sig.
    3. Re:partition != drive by derago · · Score: 0

      Think first, then post. This is total bullshit. If you copy files on one partition then it still has to physically move all those bits (unless you have some filesystem with copy on write capabilities that is). If you move a file on the same partition it only has to modify the file entry.

    4. Re:partition != drive by shird · · Score: 1

      Oops yes, I meant move, not copy. If they were doing a move rather than a copy then you would get the difference I mentioned depending on whether its on the same partition or not.

      --
      I.O.U One Sig.
  29. Re:The author has some problems with his arithmeti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Incorrect. The difference is 70 megabytes, 333 kilobytes, and 512 byes. Not 73 megabytes.

  30. what for ? by voraistos · · Score: 0

    As an end-user who does not pirate stuff and does not download any music ( i mean come on, after Pink Floyd "Meddle", nothing good happened in the music business) because i have all the records (ten years after, pink floyd, deep purple - real music-) and no movies (my GF is a director so she takes care of that), what am i supposed to do with a terabyte ? To store raw HD movies cant HDDVDs do that ? Even for a server backup i would not use it. Once the drive goes wild, you can say good bye to your business, because that's a lot of your client's data you loose there.

  31. The history (as I remember it...) by DusterBar · · Score: 2, Informative

    The "clever" marketing company was Atari with the 520ST - they wanted to make it sound better than the Amiga with 520K of memory (it had 512K like anything else, but it was 520 in marketing terms). The same reason they has the 1040ST.

    Note that it was sometime after that point in time (don't have the exact year) that some hard drive manufacturers started to play the same games. (Only with megabytes). Back then it was common to look at a 30meg vs 32meg drive and pick the 32meg drive. So when a marketing person figured out that a "real" 40meg drive could be called 42meg "unformatted" and get away with it, well, they did. And the other manufacturers followed and, well, everything was different by the time 1990 happened... (or so, maybe 1991 for the last holdout)

    It really does not matter much now - but when different manufacturers followed different rules, it was a real problem.

    (ps - Jack was always pushing the marketing envelope - albeit I can not claim to know if he did come up with the 520-vs-512 idea himself, he did push it rather hard)

  32. Problem solved! by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

    Why use a new prefix when the suffix provides all the information you need. If we're talking bits and bytes, then we use the base 2 values. Simple.

    1. Re:Problem solved! by amorsen · · Score: 1

      If we're talking bits and bytes, then we use the base 2 values. Simple.

      Except when we don't. Network speeds are almost always base 10. RAM is basically the only thing where base 2 rules. Even flash is base 10.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
  33. Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by this+great+guy · · Score: 4, Informative
    Contrary to common belief, power-of-10 prefixes (as used by disk manufacturers) are much more commonly used than power-of-2 prefixes in the IT world. People claiming the contrary are wrong. Here are a few examples:
    • A 128 kbit/s audio stream is 128 * 10^3 bit/s (power of 10)
    • A 100 Mbit/s ethernet card is 100 * 10^6 bit/s (power of 10)
    • A 480 Mbit/s USB2 link is 480 * 10^6 bit/s (power of 10)
    • A 500 GByte disk is 500 * 10^9 bytes (power of 10)
    • A 56 kbaud modem is 56 * 10^3 baud/s (power of 10)
    • A 1.5 GHz processor is 1.5 * 10^9 Hz (power of 10)
    • A 6 Mbit/s DSL line is 6 * 10^6 bit/s (power of 10)
    • A 650 MByte CD is 650 * 10^6 bytes (power of 10)
    It is a total mystery to me why people think that power-of-2 prefixes should be the norm, when the only few places where they are used are to refer to the size of files and RAM sticks.

    Spread the truth. Mod me informative ;-)
    1. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by SoapBox17 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you notice, everything listed in the parent is in powers of 10 bits (or Hz) except for disc capacities. Like everyone else said, this is because disc manufacturers want to confuse you. When talking about m/g/k bits the convention is to use powers of 10, and when talking about bytes it is to use powers of 2. Hence, as the parent said, powers of 2 are used for file sizes and RAM sizes... because those are usually in bytes.

    2. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by this+great+guy · · Score: 2, Informative
      So you are still not convinced ? Here are some examples not based on bits or Hz:
      • A 1x 250MB/s PCI-e lane is 250 * 10^6 byte/s (power of 10)
      • A PC3200 DDR400 memory stick is 3200 * 10^6 byte/s (power of 10)
      • A 56 kbaud modem is 56 * 10^3 baud/s (power of 10)
      • A 650 MByte CD is 650 * 10^6 bytes (power of 10)
      • A 300 MB/s SATA link is 300 * 10^6 byte/s (power of 10)
      • A 4000 MB/s HT1 link is 4000 * 10^6 byte/s (power of 10)
      • And of course, a 500 GByte disk is 500 * 10^9 bytes (power of 10)
    3. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by amorsen · · Score: 1

      A 56 kbaud modem is 56 * 10^3 baud/s (power of 10)

      AFAIK such a thing does not exist, and if it does exist, it doesn't work on regular phone lines. The most you can get from regular phone lines is 8000baud, since that is the sample rate the digital phone central uses. I don't know how many baud a 56k modem runs at.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    4. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by PMBjornerud · · Score: 1

      With unicode requiring 2bytes per character, bytes are slipping into meaninglessness.

      I look forward to the day when I can look at a file and read its size in megabits. Finally, it will all make sense.

      This will probably happen a little while after the US drops off as the IT industry leader. No hard feelings, but we all know how much you like SI standards...

      --
      I lost my sig.
    5. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      AFAIK such a thing does not exist, and if it does exist, it doesn't work on regular phone lines. The most you can get from regular phone lines is 8000baud, since that is the sample rate the digital phone central uses. I don't know how many baud a 56k modem runs at.

      Digital phone was something like 64kbps, one line in an ISDN. 56k never worked at that speed because of power regulations. I think the max is about 50k. The best I've seen is 33k.

    6. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by StressedEd · · Score: 1

      I look forward to the day when I can look at a file and read its size in megabits. Finally, it will all make sense.

      Agreed. That's something the networking people seem to have sorted out. It would also mean disk manufacturers could make a near order of magnitude increase in the "numbers" they put on the box overnight.

      Now that would be a great scam:

      1TB, could become 8Tb, then after a respectful delay.... 8TB and still pretend to mean the same thing.

      Here's hoping quantum computing doesn't make a sudden arrival - otherwise people may start using qbits and confusion would really reign! ;-)

      --
      Be nice to people on the way up. You will meet them again on your way down!
    7. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by MrHanky · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, when talking about RAM, where a MB is 1024 KB where a KB is 1024 bytes, you're talking about stuff connected to a memory controller that addresses this in a certain number of two, so that a 32 bit controller can address 4,294,967,296 bytes or 4 GiB. A disk controller works in a different way, and a disk is addressed in a different way. The only reason for demanding the same kind of numbering from a disk is when you need to know how much RAM a file will consume when you load it. Which is why a file's size may be denoted in KiB.

      It really isn't confusing at all. I suspect the outrage at hard drive capacities is really caused by the high frequency of autism in the geek community.

    8. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The convention your missing is that
      Networks operate powers of 10, and storage at powers of 2 (except for the marketing cuckoos),
      This likely arises out of networking coming from telecoms, and storage from ram.

    9. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by Fex303 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Here's hoping quantum computing doesn't make a sudden arrival - otherwise people may start using qbits and confusion would really reign! ;-)
      Schrödinger's hard drive - you don't know the capacity until you open the box.
    10. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by icydog · · Score: 1

      650 MB CDs are actually 681 * 10^6 bytes. The MB here means 2^20 bytes, not 10^6.

    11. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by Marvin01 · · Score: 1

      A 650 MByte CD is 650 * 10^6 bytes (power of 10)

      Actually,

      A 650 MByte CD is 333000 sectors x 2048 bytes per sector = 650.4 x 2^20 bytes (power of 2)
      A 700 MByte CD is 360000 sectors x 2048 bytes per sector = 703.1 x 2^20 bytes (power of 2)

    12. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by dingleberrie · · Score: 1

      Don't the hard drive companies actually use both bases for prefixes?
      If I buy a 500 GB hard drive with 16 MB of RAM cache, that's not actually 16,000,000 bytes of cache, is it?

      If you notice, non-addressable data tends to be in powers of 10, such as streaming media and hard drives, whereas addressable media is in powers of 2, such as RAMs and ROMs.

      I'm personally hoping to see the 1.1 TB drive soon so that I can see the 1 in front of the capacity number.

    13. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by CharlieHedlin · · Score: 1

      I lived across the street from the CO and got a 53k connection 90-95% of the time. I had a dedicated account with a static IP from a local ISP for $125 a month.

      I occasionally would connect at 50k, and on a handful of occasions my USR v.Everything reported 56k.

      There were only a few times I would make enough connections to collect any statistics and they were back to back. The line would normally be left up for months at a time.

    14. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With unicode requiring 2bytes per character, bytes are slipping into meaninglessness.

      I look forward to the day when I can look at a file and read its size in megabits. Finally, it will all make sense.

      It's a good dream, but you're glossing over some details. First of all, the byte is not important just for its use in strings. It's also the atomic datum for all computer communications. Network sockets don't communicate in bits; they communicate in bytes. If we transitioned over to 16-bit bytes, me thinks there'd be a period of pain where we had to deal with "is that big-endian octet order or little-endian octet order?"

      Secondly, Unicode does not require 2 bytes per character. Unicode is not an encoding; it is an address space. A 32-bit address space at that. A Unicode character requires anywhere from 7 bits (best case scenario under UTF-7) to 96 bits (best case scenario under UTF-8), depending on the character and its encoding.

    15. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Digital phone was something like 64kbps, one line in an ISDN. 56k never worked at that speed because of power regulations. I think the max is about 50k. The best I've seen is 33k.

      Is that meant to contradict what I said? None of the numbers you give are in baud, they are all in bps.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    16. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      No, when talking about RAM, where a MB is 1024 KB where a KB is 1024 bytes, you're talking about stuff connected to a memory controller that addresses this in a certain number of two, so that a 32 bit controller can address 4,294,967,296 bytes or 4 GiB. A disk controller works in a different way, and a disk is addressed in a different way. The only reason for demanding the same kind of numbering from a disk is when you need to know how much RAM a file will consume when you load it. Which is why a file's size may be denoted in KiB.

      It really isn't confusing at all.


      For some reason I'm reminded of this.

    17. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by ivan256 · · Score: 1
      You say examples that aren't based on bits or Hz....

      Then you list a 56kbps modem, and bus speeds that come from the clock rate (measured in Hz) of the bus...

      It all misses the point, however, which is that things which used to be measured with a power of two are now measured with a power of 10. Sure, most things have gone over to the dark side. That doesn't make it right.

      Let me fix your list for you a little bit:

      • A 1x PCI-e lane is a serial link. One bit at a time. Either way, it's rated at 2.5Gbits/s (2500MHz) with 10 bits per byte.
      • There's no such thing as a 56kbaud POTS modem. It's a 56kbits/s modem. It's baud rate is actually significantly lower.
      • A "650MByte CD" is correctly reported as holding 619MB when it is placed in a system with practically any modern OS.
      • A "300MB/s" SATA link is actually 3gbits per second, and can transfer data at 357MBytes (power of 2) per second minus overhead.
      /me revokes your geek badge.
    18. Re:Power-of-10 prefixes are the norm in IT by sudog · · Score: 1

      Unicode doesn't require two bytes per character. What do you call UTF-8 if not Unicode?

  34. All things come to those who wait. by Circlotron · · Score: 1

    "Kerbside shopping" expeditions and dumpster dives will be great just a few short years from now :-)

  35. Use the freezer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've had two hard drives make horrible nasty clicking sounds and become unreadable by the PC. One was actually a friend's computer, and he made several attempts to use the computer (ie possibly causing more damage). In both cases I was able to recover all the important data by sticking the drive in an external USB enclosure, then sticking that in the freezer for 30 minutes. Take it out, plug it into a working computer, and get copying. You could probably even use dd if on a Linux system for an exact copy of the drive.

    I don't really know the physics behind it, and there's no guarantee it will work for every hard drive problem, but I've heard lots of stories of people using this method successfully. Besides, what do you have to lose if your drive is already unreadable?

  36. Re:The author has some problems with his arithmeti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Incorrect. The difference is 70 megabytes, 333 kilobytes, and 512 byes. Not 73 megabytes.
    Incorrect. The difference is 73 megabytes, 741 kilobytes and 824 bytes. You're talking about mebibytes, not megabytes.
  37. What about reliability? by dido · · Score: 1

    Losing a terabyte of data in one shot would be extremely painful for whoever it happened to...

    --
    Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
  38. Back at my old pc repair job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we called those "deathstars"... I would hate to lose a trillion bytes.

  39. Real-world use by zuki · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Been using this drive as my primary music streaming audio drive while on the road, with rugged real-world everyday mission-critical use
    in front of thousands of people, where one mis-hap is already too much.

    So far things have been flawless, and it has made a huge difference for me due to portability compared to anything else of the same capacity.
    as previously this meant a two-drive combo with heftier power supply.

    The weight and size make it easier to have it as a carry-on item, rather than in my checked luggage!
    As far as performance, it has been able to handle 4 simultaneous 24-bit / 96 kHz audio tracks playing back with no hiccups whatsoever.
    The drive-to-drive copying in Firewire 800 or SATA has been quite speedy and error-proof.... (copying 900 gig at a time is always a good test)
    Dream come true if you ask me.... I still carry a backup anyway, LOL!
    (ymmv(TM), batteries not included, kids don't try this at home, etc....)

    Z.

    1. Re:Real-world use by tmontes · · Score: 1

      As far as performance, it has been able to handle 4 simultaneous 24-bit / 96 kHz audio tracks playing back with no hiccups whatsoever.

      ...which is nothing by today's standards:

      4 tracks, 24 bits @96KHz ---> 4 * 3 bytes * 96000 / second ---> 1152000 bytes / second ---> ~1 MiB/s !!!

      Even if you'd go with stereo tracks, that would still be nothing.

    2. Re:Real-world use by biovoid · · Score: 1

      Out of pure curiosity, what are you doing that requires four 24-bit/96kHz audio tracks playing concurrently?

  40. Ok... but 992, 977, 1023, 1011, 973 or 1005? by PMBjornerud · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Nobody gives a rat's ass about "the SI unit." These are computers. And we've always used kilobyte/megabyte/etc as they applied to computers. Well, maybe electrical engineers would prefer to have 992 watts on the kilowatt, grocers would like to define a kg as 977 grams. Maybe 1023 tons of TNT is what fits on a standard truck, so it would be handier than that stupid 1000 for a kiloton. And the food industry, maybe they would like to redefine kilocalories as 1005 to the kilo, just because of some weird internal workings of molecular workings?

    But instead of going with whatever number that fits their specific field, they all went with 1000. Really, that IT people refuse to do the same makes us look utterly retarded.

    Not that it matters anyway. With 8 bits on the byte, we're doomed before we even start. There is no hope in sight until we just ditch this shit, get a clue from the network people, and start counting bits in multiples of 1000.
    --
    I lost my sig.
    1. Re:Ok... but 992, 977, 1023, 1011, 973 or 1005? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually some of the very first computers tried to operate using decimal (BCD) logic. It didn't take long for them to figure out how retarded that was, so they sensibly switched to binary.

    2. Re:Ok... but 992, 977, 1023, 1011, 973 or 1005? by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Maybe 1023 tons of TNT is what fits on a standard truck, so it would be handier than that stupid 1000 for a kiloton.

      Are those "long" tons (2240lb), "short" tons (2000lb), or "metric" tons (1000kg)?

      Ambiguous terms of measurement do exist outside of the computer industry, too -- which, I should point out, is actually "the software development industry" plus "the hardware manufacturing industry" plus "the IT service industry" and so forth.

      Drive manufacturers have always used base-10 prefixes to describe the capacity of winchester drives. It's not a marketing ploy, it's historic convention.

    3. Re:Ok... but 992, 977, 1023, 1011, 973 or 1005? by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Are those "long" tons (2240lb), "short" tons (2000lb), or "metric" tons (1000kg)?


      A "metric" ton is actually known as a "tonne". (And people usually emphasize the "-ne" part, so it' becomes "ton-nay"). Which, for most of the world, means 1000 kg, or more correctly, a million grams. (And if precision is key, they will NOT use shortform words like tonne - they really will just say 1Mg.).

      It's the imperial measurement system that's screwed up, with two values for tons, gallons, miles, etc. At least things improved somewhat since all the imperial units are now defined in SI units. Having to re-do your measuring sticks everytime the king changed is annoying.
    4. Re:Ok... but 992, 977, 1023, 1011, 973 or 1005? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no hope in sight until we just ditch this shit, get a clue from the network people, and start counting bits in multiples of 1000.

      When computers grow hands with ten fingers and start counting with them, perhaps we will. People having ten fingers and ten toes is the ONLY reason base 10 is used as widely as it is. Computers are inherently binary devices, and thus everything to them boils down to powers of two.

    5. Re:Ok... but 992, 977, 1023, 1011, 973 or 1005? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever buy a 2x4 ?

    6. Re:Ok... but 992, 977, 1023, 1011, 973 or 1005? by PMBjornerud · · Score: 1

      Are those "long" tons (2240lb), "short" tons (2000lb), or "metric" tons (1000kg)? Holy cow... Is that even a question!?! 1000 kg of TNT, of course.

      That's your problem, just there. I am not really aware of those other 2 definitions of a ton, can you get along with the program, please? Seriously, you need to ditch those medieval measurement systems. No matter if your country is Liberia, Myanmar or the United States. </rant>
      --
      I lost my sig.
  41. Pretty small platters by AbRASiON · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So this baby has 200gb platters, it sounds all impressive and all, except we've had 188gb platters for ages now.
    Seagate has announced (and released, I think?) their 1TB HDD with only 4 platters (cooler, quieter, less power, less weight, less cost to manufacture) that's 250gb a platter

    Samsung have announced the F1 using 333GB per platter! 1.6TB if they copy Hitachi and slap 5 of them in a 3.5" unit - or rather 333gb single platter, light, cheap drives, be damned if anyone can find the F1 yet though :/

    1. Re:Pretty small platters by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Then it must be availability that got the other ones beaten. LaCie offers a 1TB drive, but it is 5.25" and that something different than 3.5". Let's just say I don't have great confidence in 5.25 drives anymore. I've tried to find some sellers for 1 TB drives, but Seagate is only listed a few times and does not seem to be available yet. Samsung did not even come up in the lists. So this drive might beat these other drives to the shops. And in the end, for us end consumers, that's what matters.

  42. RLY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Mass storage volumes within the 3851 Mass Storage Facility have the following characteristics:

    404 cylinders

    19 tracks per cylinder

    13,030 bytes per track maximum

    100 megabytes


    404 cylinders * 19 tracks per cylinder * 13030 bytes = 100018280 bytes

    100018280 bytes /1024^2 ~ 95.4 MiB

    http://www.bighole.nl/pub/mirror/www.bitsavers.org /pdf/ibm/dasd/GC20-1649-9_DASDintro_Dec75.pdf

    From the same document:


    KB = thousands of bytes

  43. Solid State? by SharpFang · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Interestingly, this form factor would neatly fit some 512 MicroSD cards leaving enough room for mechanics (slots, frame) and electronics. Take 512 2GB cards, you get 1 terabyte of solid state memory. Each of the cards can work independently from the others = easy RAID of 512 disks = quite insane speeds possible, and cheap replacement of failing parts (you replace a single failing card, not the whole device). Of course the price would be higher, but still the 1TB drive isn't cheap for sure, and without RAID.

    --
    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    1. Re:Solid State? by Nasarius · · Score: 1

      Based on the NewEgg catalog, 16GB CF cards are the most cost effective, at about $127, or $7.94 per GB. So say 62 cards for about a TB, plus hardware and electronics costs to link those all together, and you're looking at an $8000 drive. Even if we assume massive bulk-rate discounts for the manufacturer of such a drive, I could still build a new server *and* fill it with a half dozen normal 1TB drives (which are "only" about $400 each) for the same price.

      --
      LOAD "SIG",8,1
    2. Re:Solid State? by ItsLenny · · Score: 1

      no no no no... u don't want a bunch of 2 GB flash cards... or the 16 GB...

      what you're looking for is a Solid State Hard Drive

      they're already consumer available, but expensive as hell but not as bad as the figures here for simply multiplying the price of small flash cards. On the bright side they're way faster and CAN be smaller for more space

      --
      ----------
      Trying to fix or change something only guarantees and perpetuates it's existence
  44. V.92 modems by this+great+guy · · Score: 1

    You are right. I should have said 56 kbps. V.92 modems run at 8000 baud.

  45. Re:Perpendicular by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure how it's supposed to get 10x the storage simply by mounting a drive sideways instead of flat, but I believe anything marketing tells me...

  46. Re:The author has some problems with his arithmeti by nebulus4 · · Score: 0

    Pssss... megabytes, mebibytes, kilobytes, kibibytes... My Windows can calculate in kelvinbytes. Now beat this!

    --
    "It would be wrong to refuse to face the fact that everything is fundamentally sick and sad."
  47. 5.25"? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The drive is the first to pack a trillion bytes into a standard 3.5" form factor

    Hard drives used to be physically much bigger, when the interface tech was "MFM: 5.25" diameter, and "Full Height" was about 3.5".

    Physically smaller discs have faster access times and lower power consumption. But why not use larger discs for their higher data capacity, without wrapping each smaller chunk in the same electronics overhead for rotation and data transfer? And get the faster data transfer at the outer cylinders from their faster angular velocity?

    At a guess, I'd say that a 5.25" full height HD could have 2.5x the 3.5" capacity per platter, and probably at least 5x the platters, for about 12x the capacity. The access times across the large areas would be larger, but for large files that wouldn't matter as much (as long as they're kept defragmented).

    These truly "large" drives could be the best for archiving, thrown back in place after an emergency and gradually replaced with 3.5" disks (if necessary) as they continue to run.

    We could have 12TB drives with the same encoding tech as these Hitachis. And they'd cost less per TB than the 3.5" ones, because they'd have more storage per overhead hardware. Where can I get one?
    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:5.25"? by Fweeky · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Except they'd have more parts, more complexity, and the larger components would need to be made to even finer tolerences since they need to remain well aligned over a much larger area (and they'd need to be stronger if you wanted to keep the same sort of RPM). They'd be much more expensive, and you'd probably still have to drop the density per platter a lot to keep it within the realm of sanity, not least because of things like thermal expansion having a much larger effect.

      File next to the disk with multiple drive head assemblies; possible, but just not worth it when you could just fit more, smaller, cheaper, independent disks in the same space.

    2. Re:5.25"? by swillden · · Score: 1

      And they'd cost less per TB than the 3.5" ones, because they'd have more storage per overhead hardware.

      They'd also have much lower production volumes, which I think would probably more than offset the reduced overhead.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  48. I'll never buy a Hitachi *cough* IBM Deskstar by Pigeon451 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Several years ago when IBM released their much hyped Deskstar performance series hard drives, I bought one. It was more expensive than the others, but since I was doing some video work at the time, I figured I would splurge even though I was a student.

    It died a horrible death only three years later, just outside of warranty. Despite a class action lawsuit against IBM (in the US, not Canada) I couldn't get it replaced. There was apparently a fix for it, simply by downloading a program, but really, who looks for updates to their hard drives?

    IBM further went into my bad books, after it simply sold off the business to Hitachi instead of fixing their mess. It really left a sour taste in my mouth for IBM ...

    1. Re:I'll never buy a Hitachi *cough* IBM Deskstar by babyrat · · Score: 1

      There was apparently a fix for it, simply by downloading a program, but really, who looks for updates to their hard drives?

      I'm guessing you do now... :)

    2. Re:I'll never buy a Hitachi *cough* IBM Deskstar by MORB · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the deskstar are infamous from this, but I do believe that the recent generations are pretty reliable.

      My previous harddisk was a deskstar 250GB. When I first installed it, I managed to put it in such a way that one of the small metallic grooves of the case lodged itself in the small ridge between the body of the hard disk and the covering plate, which tore an almost one centimeter hole in the join, which rather messily broke up in small rubber crumbs (some of which probably got inside).

      I patched it up with some rubber paste, and the hard disk worked flawlessly for two years. The only reason it finally broke is that I got a new PC and amazingly, I was dumb enough to reiterate the same installation blunder, and this time a big section of the join went inside and was probably touching the platters.

      More generally, which hard disk brand to avoid and which one to favor change at each hard disk generation. This is why I now just let the vendor advise me when I buy one, they know the return rates of the various brands and thus know which one are good and bad at a given point in time.

  49. Why didn't they compare it against 1TB Samsung ? by Brane2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    While Hitachi uses 5 platters for 1TB, Spinpoint F1 manages to pack that space on only 3 platters, so it should be faster, more quiet and lower power than Hitachi. Not to mention good deal cheaper.

  50. Exactly! by pestie · · Score: 1

    I've seen lots of hard drive failures, and only once has SMART ever given me any indication of a problem. I consider it pretty much pointless now.

    1. Re:Exactly! by LighterShadeOfBlack · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, what, you'd rather have had zero indications of hard disk failure then only one?

      I've had four drives fail on me before (all of them Maxtor), SMART predicted one of them a month in advance by which time I'd backed up the whole thing. Maybe it missed the other three but even if it only catches a few errors, that's still a hell of a lot better than none isn't it?

      --
      Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
    2. Re:Exactly! by pestie · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying nobody should ever use SMART; I'm just saying it's not a very good indicator of when a hard drive is going to fail. You can be sure if you get a SMART error that you should replace the drive, but don't think that the absense of SMART errors means the drive is healthy. That's all. The only way I feel comfortable protecting data is: 1) RAID, 2) nightly backups.

  51. who else remembers 1gb? by axiome · · Score: 0

    It must have been mid-90s. I don't know the price at release, but I remember buying one at about $500 from Insight in computer shopper.

  52. SWEET by Neko_D · · Score: 1

    Cool... now if I only had the money to buy this harddrive I would be set.

  53. Drobo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.peeniewallie.com/2007/07/drobo.html

    This new storage device is unimaginably cool. I watched the Drobo video today and this thing is so slick I thought it might be a hoax. But, it's a real product. It figures. I got my Buffalo Terastation in October, and this little jewel comes out six months later. Doh!

    If you're looking for a storage solution for a lot of data, this Drobo looks like the way to go.

  54. Re:Perpendicular by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Recording technology: Perpendicular. With what most slashdotters put on their hard drives, you'd think the old horizontal method would be more suitable. On second thought, perpendicular is about the most they'll ever get.
  55. This is probably why English units came about by Solandri · · Score: 1

    Nobody gives a rat's ass about "the SI unit." These are computers.
    Yeah. Making nomenclature consistent across industries is damned inconvenient! Why bother?

    Look, I hate marketing dishonesty as much as the next guy, but borrowing the SI prefixes honestly does nothing but add confusion.

    I can just see the same argument being played out a thousand years ago...

    "... and that is why you should measure your lumber in units of 10."
    "But 10 is such an awful number to do carpentry with. What if I need to cut a timber into three equal lengths?"
    "Then just set your standard measure so a typical timber is 30 units long instead of 10 units long."
    "But what if I want to take a 1/3rd cut and also cut that into thirds?"
    "Oh I give up. Making nomenclature consistent across industries is so damned inconvenient! Why bother? Just stick with your yards, feet, and inches. See if I care."

    Consistency and convenience often end up on opposite sides of the table.

    Hard drives are easy, because one can safely assume that the marketing 'tards went with whatever number was bigger.
    Not quite. They're still labeled in bytes, not bits. Though I suppose we shouldn't be giving the marketroids any more stupid ideas...
  56. issue with benchmark by Rojo^ · · Score: 1

    I think I see a flaw in the benchmarks. They're using Windows to benchmark the different drives. This is not a dig at Windows, but specifically, the problem is that by default, Windows allocates a percentage of hard drive space to be used as swap space. On the boot times listed, the 1TB drive has the slowest boot time. Could that be because the pagefile on the 1TB drive is by default larger than the pagefile on the smaller drives? Is this particular benchmark skewed? Would the results be different if the testers set a static pagefile size of, say, 1.5GB on all the drives tested, then used SysInternals PageDefrag to make it contiguous?

    --
    <:
    1. Re:issue with benchmark by CrackerJackz · · Score: 1

      FYI: Windows creates swap based on the amount of physical memory in the computer (1.5 times memory for min, 3.0 times max)

      linky:
      http://support.microsoft.com/kb/308417/

  57. On another note... by gerardrj · · Score: 3, Insightful

    TOO states " As the first hard drive to reach the terabyte mark, Hitachi's Deskstar 7K1000 will be remembered, too. Squeezing a trillion bytes into a 3.5" hard drive form factor is a monumental engineering achievement"

    I doubt that anyone will remember this in a year. Quick; what was the model and manufacturer of the first drive to pass 500GB, or 1GB. Both were monumental engineering achievements in their time. These milestones will not be remembered because they are all evolutionary; a 10-30% jump in capacity. When we see 10x capacity increases in one generation, THAT name might be remembered.

    That said.. good job Hitachi, but we all know that WD and Seagate will be out with their versions in a month or so.

    --
    Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
    1. Re:On another note... by argent · · Score: 1

      Quick; what was the model and manufacturer of the first drive to pass 500GB, or 1GB.

      Don't know about 500GB but I'm pretty sure it was a Maxtor XT series drive to be the first past 1GB.

    2. Re:On another note... by gerardrj · · Score: 1

      At least according to this page: http://www.patantconsult.com/articlesvault/Article /The-History-of-the-Floppy-and-Hard-Disk-Drive/115 01

      IBM holds the record for the first ever 1GB drive (1980) and the first desktop use 1GB drive (1991)

      Try searching for the answer and you'll see my point though. Not only is this information not on the forefront of anyone's mind, it's barely accessible as historical documents on the internet.

      --
      Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
    3. Re:On another note... by argent · · Score: 1

      So the thing to be is not he first drive to pass 1TB, but the first drive to be shipped in large quantities with that capacity... to be the first to make them with the form factor, price, and interface to sell to the mass market. Whether IBM beat Maxtor to 1GB or not, the only ones you could actually find at resellers were Maxtor's. And that was hard enough.

      I don't know if IBM was only selling SMD drives, or whether they were only using them in their own systems (possibly, IBM was often IBM's biggest customer when it came to parts), but for several years the biggest and most reliable ESDI and later SCSI drives you could get were Maxtor's.

  58. Haven't you seen "Avenue Q"? by wsanders · · Score: 3, Funny

    http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/avenueq/theinternet isforporn.htm ...

    TREKKIE AND GUYS
    Porn, porn, porn, porn
    porn, porn, porn, porn
    KATE
    I hate the internet!
    TREKKIE AND GUYS
    Porn, porn, porn, porn

    TREKKIE
    The internet is for

    TREKKIE AND SOME
    The internet is for

    TREKKIE AND ALL
    The internet is for PORN!

    TREKKIE
    YEAH!

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
    1. Re:Haven't you seen "Avenue Q"? by HobophobE · · Score: 2, Funny

      The video is on YouTube...

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtiGd58J0bY

      --

      -HobophobE
      Nothing laughs forever.
    2. Re:Haven't you seen "Avenue Q"? by genner · · Score: 1

      Is it wrong for me to speculate if the voice of Kate is hot?

  59. The merchant class will decide by postermmxvicom · · Score: 1

    Personally, it would be *much* better if we all adopted base 16 and switched SI over to that also.

    Then, the merchant class would have a system easily measured by hand. Doubling 4 times to reach the next place or halving four times to reach the previous. Much easier than trying to divide something physical into tenths by hand.

    Also, one place in base 16 corresponds to exactly 4 in binary. Thus, unifying the merchants with the techies.

    Finally, it is easy to count to 16 using only one hand (by placing the end of your thumb on the palm side of the 12 remaining knuckles and 4 remaining fingertips (12 + 4 = 16). Using both hands we could count to the equivalent of base 10's 256. This unifies mathematicians with the merchants and the techies.

    This would bring peace and harmony to the world of numbers...

    --
    One last thing: Sometimes I wonder; "Is that someone's signature? Or do they type that at the end of each post?"
  60. Re:The author has some problems with his arithmeti by Heian-794 · · Score: 1

    Armchair psychology here, but a lifetime of giving the government a several-percentage-point commission on everything you buy will certainly make a similar loss on advertised hard drive space "easy to swallow".

    We've become used to the idea that advertised prices are slightly better than what we'll really be paying (sales tax), and that gross incomes are slightly more than what we'll actually be taking home (income tax), and that the price of some product might cost a few percent more next year (inflation).

    Many states and countries have consumption taxes right in line with the "easy to swallow" 7.3% gap that fails to "ruffle" this author's feathers. Can you really blame hardware manufacturers for trying to get away with the same figure-fudging? Perhaps when we get to the double-digit gaps of petabytes and higher, people will start noticing. Then again, a 12.6% sales tax is downright cheap in the EU!

  61. Re:Why didn't they compare it against 1TB Samsung by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because nobody can buy a 1TB samsung?

  62. Those are all based on Hz. by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1
    • The definition for PCIe-2.0 is that the minimum duration in the asyncronously clocked 10b/8b encoded signal is 0.4 nanoseconds between transitions. The inverse (2.5GHz) gets divided by 10 to describe the maximum theoretical bytes per second (which is practically unattainable) and it gets multiplied by a thousand a few times to give people a number they can quote on message boards. So that's Hz based.
    • Memory is based on 100MHz clock multiples... blah blah blah
    • Modems -> telecom -> always used 10^3 multiples for everything
    • You're wrong on this one ... bucking the storage trend these MBs are "real" MBs. 1024^2
    • SATA is based on a 1.5GHz signalling base (10b/8b, etc. etc.)
    • HT is similar to PCIe ... blah blah blah
    • Yeah, we know about that one. That marketing crap (notice they don't get away with that shit with flash memory or USB memory sticks). Worse worse was floppies. 1.44MB = 1440 * 1024 bytes. Ugh.

    So, uh, what non-Hz/telecom or non-marketing based ones again?
    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
    1. Re:Those are all based on Hz. by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      So, uh, what non-Hz/telecom or non-marketing based ones again?
      1. Tape drives - tape capacities are universally quoted in base-10.
      2. Hard disk sectors
        1. While the payload is often a power of two, the actual sector on the disk consists of many more bits - error correction, addressing, etc, that do not sum up to a power of two.
        2. Most 'enterprise grade' raid systems (HP, EMC, Netapp, etc) use drives with sector payload sizes of 520 bytes, not 512.
      3. Total capacities of 'enterprise grade" raid systems.
      4. Flash drives of all forms - contrary to your claim, a 2GB compact flash drive is typically 2*10^9 bytes.
      In fact, the only two places where powers of two are universally used is in system RAM and filesystem capacities, not raw capacity, only filesystem managed capacity.
  63. They already pulled that shit. by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    Remember the uberlarge "32-megabit" SNES cartridges? 32 Mb = 4MB. A couple of floppies, which doesn't seem so impressive...

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  64. Because... by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    Filesystems still allocate files with blocks that are multiples of 1k (1024). Binary numbers of blocks comprise larger allocation and accounting units and limits and such and so those binary representations are useful to system administrators who need to where those cylinder group boundaries are going to be... blah blah blah. Or what size blocks to use and how many when doing binary copies for restoring your data and such.

    OTH you should be able to choose the representation. SI accounting for files > 1000000 bytes, and an integral number of 'blocks' for small files, whatever that smallest allocation unit is.

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  65. It's useful for low-end RAID array expansion by macraig · · Score: 1

    I laughed when, once again, the most important number in the specs was ignored in this article: the disk-to-buffer tranfer rate. The interface bandwidth, upon which the article wasted the second column of that first table, is immaterial because it's the SAME for all drives of the same class; in fact, there's really been no real-world benefit from SATA II *yet*, because no drive has been able to fully utilize even SATA I (has any?). It's the actual rate that the drive can yank data off the drive - the disk-to-buffer transfer rate - that really counts. This drive seems to do better than my aging 250GB Hitatchi SATA II drives, which have a DTB rate of about 72MB/s. According to the article, it might not be able to keep up with the 750GB WD SE16 I just bought (and for only $194.99 total, BTW). I always discount the value of the cache, because it's just never big enough to really matter... they'd have to be orders of magnitude larger to have a pronounced effect (a true "hybrid" drive, not like Acomdata's so-named toy).

    However, the real value of this drive isn't speed; Hitachi has merely used PR to make its speed competitive. The real value of this drive is as an upgrade for low-end RAID arrays built on single HBAs with a fixed number of ports: this drive means such arrays can be upgraded without having to buy another HBA with more ports, etc. Even if such an array of, say, four drives in RAID 5 used 750MB drives now, replacing those drives with these terabyte drives would be a significant increase in array capacity.

    It seemed pretty clear to me that the purpose of these drives was just such scenarios, not to be entered into hard disk drag races. Hitachi managed to keep the DTR on par with the Joneses while offering a 33% boost in single-egg capacity... and it's a useful mass-market demonstration of perpendicular recording, too.

  66. Tera versus Tebi by fm6 · · Score: 1

    ...while some may argue the merits of tebi versus tera...
    It's a simple choice. If you say "tebi", all your geek friends will make fun of you. If you say "tera", people will not be sure whether you mean 1024 * 1024 * 1024 or 1000 * 1000 * 1000 or 1000 * 1000 * 1024 .... (Finish iterating yourself — I've seen then all.) This confusion might get you sued. So, do you want to be cool, or do you want to stay out of courtrooms?
    1. Re:Tera versus Tebi by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      It's a simple choice. If you say "tebi", all your geek friends will make fun of you. If you say "tera", people will not be sure whether you mean 1024 * 1024 * 1024 or 1000 * 1000 * 1000 or 1000 * 1000 * 1024 .... (Finish iterating yourself -- I've seen then all.) This confusion might get you sued. So, do you want to be cool, or do you want to stay out of courtrooms?

      How about 10^12? Scientific notation is useful for being unambiguous.

  67. Re:Why didn't they compare it against 1TB Samsung by Brane2 · · Score: 1

    Quite a few stores have them.

    I have ordered a few and am waiting for a delivery- should be here in a few days...

  68. How do you accidentally launch a hard drive... by Ambiguous+Puzuma · · Score: 1

    ...across the room? There has to be a good story behind this.

    1. Re:How do you accidentally launch a hard drive... by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 1
      Naw its pretty boring. It was a spare drive not in my machine. I wanted to grab some data off it fast, so I hooked it up to one of those external IDE cables that let you use the drive externally WITHOUT an external enclosure. Since I just wanted one file I guess I didn't bother to screw in the cable screws either.

      It was sitting on the table, I walked by and in my Meniere's-induced instability tripped over the dangling cable. The drive was yanked off the table and shot right off the end of the cable.

      --
      This space available.
  69. I'll save you some work... by Cervantes · · Score: 1

    After 15 pages (with no notable "print version" option) and enough meaningless graphs, charts, and whoozits to get you a bandwidth warning from your ISP...

    It's really big. But it's not really fast. But you're gonna buy it anyways. Cuz it's a fricken TERABYTE!!! Or is that TibiByte? TribbleByte? I'm not sure, I'll have to go read the first few pages again...

    Seriously, why the hell do they pain us with all these charts? When was the last time you went to buy a HD and went "Oh, no, not that one, it scored low on the MP3/ISO transfer test, even though it did really good on the Photoshop render thingy and the Doom3 loadscreen".
    Sheesh.

    --
    If I knew the wedgies I gave you back in 6th grade would have resulted in this . . . I might have taken a moments pause.
  70. 1,000 vs. 1,024, etc. by Panaqqa · · Score: 1

    At my company, we have taken to using our own expression(s) to avoid the confusion. Since we are in the computer industry we tend to deal with 1,024 far more than 1,000. So when the trillion vs. 2^40 byte issue first surfaced, for some reason we started calling 10^12 bytes a "trillobyte" (trillion bytes) vs. 2^40 bytes which is a "terabyte". I think it's because we liked the role "trilobytes" played in evolution. Then it spread - so we use millobyte for 10^6 and billobyte for 10^9. And I suppose we'll call 10^15 bytes a "quadrillobyte" not a "petabyte" when those numbers come into regular use in, say, 8 years or so.

    BTW, I know that "millobyte" is too close to "millibyte", but we figure there can't be any confusion unles and until there is some use for 10^-3 bytes = .008 bits :P

  71. your petulant attitude helps nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Nobody gives a rat's ass about 'the SI unit.' These are computers." you say?
    Facts are stubborn things. SI units predate computers, and the linguistic corruption (ab)used by computer jargon would be fine if they didn't cause confusion when talking to other people who expect to hear people talking about a certain prefix to be talking about it, and not something else they've decided to call by the same name.

    "And we've always used kilobyte/megabyte/etc as they applied to computers."
    Your appeal to tradition opposes clear, unambiguous communication, and is thus illogical. I don't think this type of appeal is inherently bad, but here it inhibits a tangible win, so it's out.

    "You think you're right, but you're not."
    No, YOU think you're right, but you're not. Your argument is an emotional one. You try to pound the point home by repeating your point: "a {whatever}byte will always be 1024 {whatever-1}byte" over and over again.

    Your petty, grumpy position stands to save you a little adolescent embarrassment in exchange for remaking the world in your vision, forcing it to cater to your capricious whim, and cause ambiguity or long-windedness in communication just to get precise ideas across. FWIW, I think all these Mebi- and such sound stupid too, as I've always called them by their "traditional" names. I still do, but only to people who know the difference; and I always write MiB even when if I say "megabyte".

    5, Insightful? I expect more thoughtful, less emotional reaction from Slashdot moderators.

    Captcha: repress

  72. When your fancy raid card dies... by nullchar · · Score: 1

    ...you're fucked. You might have 2+ extra drives, but you'll wait a week for the replacement raid card. With MD, you throw the disks in another box and you're back in business.

    It all depends on your application, but if I lose a few seconds of transactions, it is no big deal to me.

    If you have the cash to throw at Oracle, then you have the cash to throw at hardware scsi raid or a NAS.

    The rest of us will get by quickly and cheaply with software sata raid.

  73. Powe-of-two sizes are not universal in computing by Jamie+Lokier · · Score: 1

    we've always used kilobyte/megabyte/etc as they applied to computers

    But that's not true. It's common when measuring RAM and ROM sizes, and sometimes when reporting file sizes (by no means all systems though). But many uses in computers use SI base 10 notation, or even weird mixtures. This is not new; it goes back to the early days in computing.:

    • A 100Mbit/s network communicates at 10^8 bits per second, not 100 x 2^20.
    • A 33.6k modem communicates at 33.6 x 10^3 bits per second, not 33.6 x 2^10.
    • Bizarrely, a 1.44MB floppy holds 1.44 x 10^3 x 2^10 bytes, not 1.44 x 2^20 or even 1.44 x 10^6.
    • A 2Gflop CPU performs 2 x 10^9 operations per second, not 2 x 2^30.

    When a downloading program reports it's getting "1MB/s", it is rather ambiguous: is that a binary k because you're storing 1MB (MiB) every second, or is it decimal k for consistency with communications usage, showing off your 8Mbit/s (decimal) cable modem at peak performance? Likely it will depend on the background of the person who wrote the program, or the context in which it's being used. Sure, you might think it should always use the binary notation. A communications engineer would see it differently. A status display on your cable modem's web page would look weird showing it had negotiated an 8Mbit/s connection while telling you the theoretical maximum download rate is 953kB/s; it would need an explanation to avoid complaints.

    Summary: the idea that binary notation is used in computers is historically true only for some kinds of measurement, and even then it's been a source of confusion.

  74. Girlfriend upset by 5n3ak3rp1mp · · Score: 1

    What are people doing with drives to make them fail?

    My girlfriend "tossed" my new macbook pro onto a carpeted floor in a fit of disgust over some relationship complaints getting back to her via another attractive woman who I vented to (note to all other inexperienced daters- don't ever do this).

    The macbook pro made it (slightly bent but I was able to unbend it)... the laptop drive did not.

    "But it was carpeted", she later said, after I blew up.

    To her credit, she did charge the data recovery fee ($3,500 from DriveSavers) to her school, so I got back all my data. Ah, the ups and downs of dating a school administrator...

    I would have dumped her right there, but she used to be a cheerleader, likes a lot of sex, likes to drink as much as I do, doesn't mind my music, and not only plays WoW with me, but has more toons. Also scuba dives with me. It's a tough call...

  75. Jeez..... by IHC+Navistar · · Score: 1

    If you don't already know that the information is being stored in binary bytes, and need to change 'terabyte' to 'tebibyte' in order for you to realize and understand that, then you shouldn't be fooling around with hard drives in the first place.

    Just how dumb is society going to get?!

    --
    Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....