FBI May Have Datamined Grocery Stores With Help From Credit Companies

An anonymous reader writes "Recent media reports indicate that in 2005-06, the FBI went trawling through grocery store records in order to track down Iranian terror cells. They hoped to locate 'Middle-Eastern terrorists' through the purchase of specific food items. Many of these items, though, are not sold through big-box supermarket chains, and the majority of mom and pop ethnic markets do not have the detailed computer purchase histories that Safeway or Whole Foods have. What the FBI seems to have done is instead put together a list of everyone who shopped at a Middle Eastern food market. All signs point to the credit card companies providing this data, and not the individual stores. If so, this could be the tip of a (potentially illegal) data-mining iceberg."

Comments

In Other News...

[Mr_Perl]

Falafil Inc. sues the FBI for defamation of character and loss of business.

Re:In Other News...

[show me altoids]

Falafil Inc. sues the FBI for defamation of character and loss of business.

I really falafel about this.

Re:In Other News...

[rvw]

Falafil Inc. sues the FBI for defamation of character and loss of business. Hey man have you ever see a falafel explode? I sure don't want to be around! And if they're still frozen, you will never know what hits you if a mad falafel-seller comes after you. Man this is really dangerous!

Re:In Other News...

[cayenne8]

Shit....I'm now on the hummus watch list from last week's football game parties!!!!

Re:In Other News...

[Sponge Bath]

Didn't Rush do an album about this sort of paranoia?
I believe it was 'Hummusfears'.

Re:In Other News...

[billcopc]

Obscure! green dot for you!

Re:In Other News...

[Foobar of Borg]

Hey man have you ever see a falafel explode?

Falafels? Hell, the FBI should be monitoring people who eat at Taco Bell. A man who has eaten at Taco Bell is a weapon of mass destruction waiting to explode!

Datamined Grocery Stores

[smittyoneeach]

data-mining iceberg lettuce hovercraft eel overflow

Re:Datamined Grocery Stores

[Anonymous Coward]

Its already been theorized that health insurance companies will soon start data-mining to see what their customers are eating and drinking. Then they will start denying charges for anything they deem diet related (heart attack, stroke, cancer, diabetes, liver damage, etc., etc., etc., etc...). Their excuse, "hey it was their choice to eat transfats and have a beer once a week not ours".

Don't laugh I know people in the industry and this has been knocked around for years now.

Because

[InvisblePinkUnicorn]

Because people who grew up having to make their own food from scratch are going to suddenly stop doing that and start buying the Kraft brand.

Re:Because

[trolltalk.com]

"Because people who grew up having to make their own food from scratch are going to suddenly stop doing that and start buying the Kraft brand."

And how many people who are just trying to eat healthier and get a bit of variety in their diet are they going to snag?

Or who go there because its convenient to rent a movie (a lot of these places rent movies, etc).

Re:Because

[megaditto]

You don't understand how datamining works. Records of you shopping for Islamic food by and in itself is irrelevant. Nobody is going to throw you in jail because you love a falaffel now and then
However, once FBI computers have access to hundreds of unrelated databases, they can do things like

RETURN PERSON ID where gender is a male AND between 17-35 AND shops at Islamic stores AND has expired visa AND received large cash transfers from an Islamic country AND bought a one-way ticket on an airplane AND is on the same flight as others of that class.

Re:Because

[joranbelar]

RETURN PERSON ID where gender is a male AND between 17-35 AND shops at Islamic stores AND has expired visa AND received large cash transfers from an Islamic country AND bought a one-way ticket on an airplane AND is on the same flight as others of that class.

(2 row(s) returned)

RETURN PERSON ID where gender is a male AND between 17-35 AND has expired visa AND received large cash transfers from an Islamic country AND bought a one-way ticket on an airplane AND is on the same flight as others of that class.

(2 row(s) returned)

Thank God for the grocery store data! ;)

Re:Because

[mOdQuArK!]

They can also do stuff like: RETURN PERSON ID where party != party in control of government AND buys anti-Administration magazines AND owns a gun AND actively participates in political protests.

Why do pro-government apologists always sound like they're about to piss their pants in fear of terrorists? Who is more likely to destroy your life, a terrorist or the government?

Re:Because

[Touvan]

That's all fine and dandy, if they do that with a warrant in hand. Maybe you are comfortable trusting them to add the rest of those AND statements, but I'm not. I don't care if it's hard or inconvenient to get a warrant, they better well do it. Let's also remember, that the FBI asked for warrants for many of the hijackers that did 9/11 - so it's not like the old system couldn't work - it's just the participants in that system were too buys playing CYA politics, instead of protecting this country.

Re:Because

[homer_ca]

I know. The corner store down the street is run by Arabs, and it has the best deals on produce and pita. I also like the dolmas (grape leaves stuffed with rice). Good thing I always paid cash there. I guess next time I want some healthy olive oil, I'll be a good Patriot and get Crisco shortening from the supermarket instead.

Re:Because

[cayenne8]

"And how many people who are just trying to eat healthier and get a bit of variety in their diet are they going to snag?

Or who go there because its convenient to rent a movie (a lot of these places rent movies, etc)."

Pay cash...at least for now, it is still legal, and untraceable.

Re:Because

[cayenne8]

"..AND owns a gun..."

Just curious...how are they going to know you own a gun? Do some states require you to register them or something?

I bought all my guns used...cash. The only time I ever had to register any of them, when when I listed them on a concealed carry permit. I didn't know some states required you to register your guns...otherwise, how would they know you owned them?

Re:Because

[operagost]

AND has expired visa

Why bother searching any terms other than this? If their visa is expired, they should be deported immediately. It will be hard for them to perform their function when they're back in Iran. If we just secured our borders and kept track of people holding visas, it would be a lot harder for them to plan anything. Unfortunately, we have losers in our government who act like we should allow anyone to enter the country at any time in any manner, supposedly because citizens won't pick lettuce (or at least, not for and illegally low $4/hour). Until we stop allowing red herrings and straw men to be part of the debate, we will be unsafe.

Re:Because

[davidsyes]

Think:

http://www.visualanalytics.com/solutions/criminalInvestigation.cfm

http://www.visualanalytics.com/solutions/informationAccess.cfm

Although the FBI and other acronym-agencies may have rolled their own, gone with Oracle or IBM, or just licensed mods of Visual Analytics.

VA is a POWERFUL and kewl tool. But, it can be scary, too.

Re:Because

[Experiment 626]

Just curious...how are they going to know you own a gun? ... I bought all my guns used...cash.

And that is why you see pushes every now and then to eliminate private transfer ("close the gun show loophole"), implement registration requirements, and so on. While "they" might not be able to know who has a gun in cases like yours, will a gun buyer have that same level of privacy after 8 years of President Hillary?

Re:Because

[__aajfby9338]

California requires registration of handguns, and requires all transfers of firearms other than long guns over 50 years old to be processed through a licensed dealer. The make/model/serial number is only [supposed to be] sent to the state if it's a handgun, but in the case of long guns they'll still know that something was transferred, even if they don't know exactly what it is.

So, at least in California it would be easy to build a database query which returns the identities of law-abiding citizens who have legally purchased firearms. Wow, I sure feel safe now.

Re:Because

[Anonymous Coward]

Possibly when you brag on the Internet that you own several unregistered guns.

Or do you really think your packets don't route through the NSA and that government agencies don't datamine online forums?

Re:Because

[davidsyes]

It's NOT untraceable. Here's one way:

--Surveillance cameras in stores snap facials of EVERY transaction.

--Scanner hidden in drawer reads serials off notes (or, for other conspiracies, reads antenna ID in bill strip).

--Information is sent to local/regional Fed Deposit branch. Bills in-circulation-database checked for unauthorized bills (not officially ordered, or those that are supposed to be in foreign markets suddenly reappearing local to the US, or those that circuited through several high-tech nations)

Did you know that in around 1996 or so there was a show "Color of Money" on PBS about creation, circulation, tracking, and destruction of paper notes? One European country named had/has a law requiring ALL businesses to at or by the close of business deposit ALL paper notes. These are scanned for bogus/counterfeit/unauthorized-in-circulation (say, stolen) bills/notes. The store/merchant is matched TO those notes. ANY suspicious transactions are matched to the stores' ON-SITE security/surveillance cameras.

Now, WHO says bills are not TRACEABLE? Next time you go to Sears, Mervyn's, Macy's, Federated, Target, Kohls, Costco, et cetera, ask yourself how many of those cameras are tapped by FISA-wielding agencies, how many have souped-up/enhanced zoom and audio, and how many bills are dusted for DNA (probably targeted neighborhoods, or random/roving targets), and how many are in databases for global authorities to scan when THEIR reciprocal interagency targets are detected.

UNTRACEABLE my eye.

Re:Because

[davidsyes]

Umm, I think that was Discovery Channel... might not have been PBS...

Re:Because

[Nimey]

You have to fill out a form and get it called in in Missouri. Ostensibly it's to prevent felons and such from obtaining guns. I'm almost certain the form includes the gun's serial number.

That's for long guns (rifles, shotguns), at least. I haven't bought a pistol yet, so I don't know what the procedure is for those.

We do have concealed carry here in Missouri now, but I don't know the details (can't very well conceal a Mosin-Nagant or a K31). IIRC, though, you don't have to register with the local sheriff any longer.

Re:Because

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

RETURN PERSON ID where gender is a male AND between 17-35 AND shops at Islamic stores AND has expired visa AND received large cash transfers from an Islamic country AND bought a one-way ticket on an airplane AND is on the same flight as others of that class.

0 rows returned

FBI Agent: "Damn! Now what? ....."

RETURN PERSON ID where RELIGION='Islam'

Re:Because

[_Sprocket_]

Sure. And jails can be used to house political dissidents. And if the jails fill up, guns can be used to silence political dissidents even quicker. That doesn't mean we need to close down our jails and disarm our military and police. What it does mean is that we need to have checks to ensure that these things are used in an appropriate manner.

Re:Because

[N3WBI3]

Depends on the state and the gun.. Some of the nanny states want you to register a bic pen used for spitwads, some of the gun nut states will let you own pretty much anything short of a bazooka without registering.

Re:Because

[N3WBI3]

Why bother searching any terms other than this? If their visa is expired, they should be deported immediately.

Youre assume everyone who has an expired Visa is at the correct address, or will be easy to find. You want to get rid of the risk first than anything else the FBI does not have limitless resources.

Re:Because

[houghi]

It could even be that the AND will rule out those 2 as well. A nice proof is google. The first line returns 15 results. The second one 24.

Re:Because

[feed_me_cereal]

so, someone will throw you in jail if you're a foreign student in college, like falafel, got some money from your parents, forgot to update your visa, and take a one-way flight somewhere? If I wasn't an american and fucked up on my visa, I would fit your terrorist profile exactly come christmas.

Re:Because

[Anonymous Coward]

Now _THAT_'s insightful.

The very first thing we learn in basic scientific research, starting in around 6th grade, is that if your first search turns up no results you don't simply think "Oh, there are no matches" but instead expand the scope of the search.

To think that the FBI/NSA/CIA somehow practices self-restraint in the interest of protecting the privacy of American citizens is more than somewhat naive.

-HiLJ

Re:Because

[WingedEarth]

Iranians don't eat "Islamic" food aka Arabian food i.e. what is sold at Middle Eastern groceries (falafels, etc.). They eat Persian food, which is pre-Islamic and sold at Persian groceries, not Islamic/Arabian grocery stores.

Re:Because

[nizo]

..the FBI does not have limitless resources.

Maybe if they would quit wasting time rummaging through grocery lists they could dedicate the resources to more productive avenues for preventing terrorism? This of course assumes that is why they got the data in the first place, which may not be a valid assumption.

Re:Because

[BigGerman]

Not to jail but to be questioned. Which seems to be perfectly reasonable to me (if someone in fact matches all of those criteria).

Re:Because

[Rick17JJ]

Maybe it was all those gun magazines which you purchased at the grocery store where you used your shopper's discount card and paid by debit card. Or perhaps it was that subscription of yours to that gun magazine. Either that, or maybe it was when you purchased ammo at Wall-Mart and paid by charge card. Then there is also that monthly NRA magazine that gets mailed to you, through the postal system, each month. They might have also have seen how often you visit gun related websites. If you purchased a gun safely at a book store, you may have used that discount card you paid for and paid by charge card. If so, your transaction might possibly have ended up in a database somewhere.

The permit that you recently received to hunt Elk might strongly suggests that you have a hunting rifle. Does hunting quail or rabbits require a permit (I am not a hunter myself)? If so then they can safely assume that you have a shotgun. Here in Arizona, many average people have taken the course that is required to get a concealed weapons permit. If your wife has a concealed weapons permit, she probably sometimes carries a gun in her purse.

Te Bush administration is also trying to make the argument in court that the constitution does not protect the privacy of email. Data mining software might have noticed that email message where you were bragging to you friends about the size of the Elk that you recently shot. With these data mining techniques, they might be able to identify most gun owners.

Is big brother in your grocery cart?

Re:Because

[Artifakt]

How many people think they are 'safe' because they bought their guns with cash, but at least one of the following is true:

1. The dealer has been selling to some serious bad guys, and when caught, will roll over and give all sorts of descriptions, names and other information on customers like you before he risks informing on the 'really dangerous' sorts.

2. How did you stay in practice with that gun? How many bought the gun itself with cash, but bought ammunition, or rented a range at least once, with a card, check, or other traceable?

3. Did your face get recorded on camera when you bought or trained with anything? That's the essence of data mining - putting faces, names, SSNs and such together with the other data. No one wants any info what-so-ever on a person unless they can link it to a name, a face, a bank balance or an ID number, but a photo is almost as good as a name for most law enforcement purposes.

4. Do you have a military record? Every weapon you have so much as familiarization fired, let alone qualified with, is there, as are range scores. Law enforcement personnel will assume you might still have just about anything you ever had, and judges have issued warrants based solely on an exotic weapon being used in a crime and some person having that weapon on their military record before.
        This is also one of the most risky points for a non-gun owner - If you currently have absolutely nothing, but are on record as having ever fired a machine gun or grenade launcher, guess how much force looks reasonable to those cops serving you for something as non-violent as failure to pay child support, let alone a violent felony?

Re:Because

[jelton]

That's all fine and dandy, if they do that with a warrant in hand.

Warrants require a court to make a determination of probable cause. It is exceedingly unlikely that any court (including the conservative ones) would find probable cause in a request for aggregate data, because there is nothing to suggest that every single customer of Generic Mediterranean Market is engaged in illegal activity.

So, when they can't get the data by warrant, they either ask for it, or Congress imposes a duty on businesses to provide it (e.g. National Security Letters). Just like the Continental Congress intended.

Re:Because

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

You forget the other quick point to get back to an owner, serial number -> ATM that spit that out. Pay with >3 bills that all match you as the atm that generated them? Pretty good indication that its you, or someone you know. Obviously you would want to corroborate more data sources before acting on it, but its something.

Re:Because

[Belial6]

"Te Bush administration is also trying to make the argument in court that the constitution does not protect the privacy of email."

Which is why we need to all be using the 100% compatible system that uses all of the same applications, and protocols, but is called Electronic Papers, and Effects. This way it is clear that they are covered under the 4th amendment. Or at least get the major application writers to describe email as electron papers and effects, so that non-tech savvy judges can understand what it is, and that they should be protected.

Re:Because

[OwnedByTwoCats]

Come on. Questioned, and told that if he doesn't confess, he will be sent to Egypt or Syria where they torture terror "suspects" because we ask them to. This isn't fiction, it has happened.

Re:Because

[cayenne8]

"1. The dealer has been selling to some serious bad guys, and when caught, will roll over and give all sorts of descriptions, names and other information on customers like you before he risks informing on the 'really dangerous' sorts.

2. How did you stay in practice with that gun? How many bought the gun itself with cash, but bought ammunition, or rented a range at least once, with a card, check, or other traceable?"

Never bought a gun from a dealer, I bought from private individuals with cash, no records of transaction.

Well, usually I've just driven to the woods to drop a few hundred rounds, but, when I lived in another state, I just went to the state firing range where you didn't sign anything, just gave them a few $$ for the day, and the only rule was, no targets with human silhouettes.

Never been in the military....I buy pretty much anything in a brick and mortar store with cash. Cameras? Well, I supposed they could find me that way....but, that's gonna take some effort.

I'll stick with it that it is still pretty easy to buy and own guns without the govt. having any record of it.

Re:Because

[Touvan]

That's fine, and if the data is collected in an open and transparent way - so that everyone know exactly what's being collected, I might actually be in support of some kind of database like this. The problems come in how you protect people from political attacks, and other forms of abuse. I'd also like to some some convincing evidence to show that databases like these can actually be used effectively to prevent crime, not just to hassle regular folks and political opponents.

I stand by my assertion that events like 9/11 are completely preventable with the old system, without the use of these kinds of very heavy handed, and very easily abused kinds of mass data collection techniques. Investigators should be required to get the same sorts of warrants that they would need today to invade the privacy of individuals and groups, to actually query these databases.

Basically, we need some real effective checks and balances (at least as effective as we've been able to achieve thus far, previous to databases). So far I haven't seen even an attempt create these checks.

Re:Because

[megaditto]

I have heard somewhere that about 50% of the 12 million "illegal" aliens are visa overstays, which means that just searching for "expired visa" will return over 6 million records.

Going after all of those 6 million is hardly the most efficient way to find terrorists. I would rather the Govt go after the child molesters, drug dealers, rapists and other violent felons (but that's just me).

Re:Because

[DamnStupidElf]

Just curious...how are they going to know you own a gun? Do some states require you to register them or something?

Good question.

I bought all my guns used...cash. The only time I ever had to register any of them, when when I listed them on a concealed carry permit. I didn't know some states required you to register your guns...otherwise, how would they know you owned them?

Well, NOW they know...

Re:Because

[Gregour]

Exactly. How do people not understand this?

Whenever someone proposes giving the government a new power, there's an easy way to test if the government should have that power. Think of the person or people you'd least like to see in power. Then ask yourself if you would like that person or people to have that power.

If you wouldn't want your opposition to have that power, you shouldn't give it to the government, because, sooner or later, your opposition will be in control.

Re:Because

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

New guns and conceal carry permits. Of course, this would be based on the false notion that the terrorists are going to obey all of the laws, register their guns, get permits, etc.

Re:Because

[jdjbuffalo]

While I agree *in theory* that's a possible scenario, I have yet to see any tangible evidence to back up that is happening on an individual level. I'll agree that it could possibly be done manually today. But for it to be happening as you describe would require MASSIVE cooperation between the government and huge numbers of national and local stores. This would have to be somewhat common knowledge (at least in the tech community since we would be working on these systems).

If you want to provide me links to several reputable sources I might be willing to grant you this is happening but I highly doubt it.

Now, if you want to posit that it may be prevalent in the next 5-15 years if technology develops a little more and we keep sliding down into a Corporatocracy and/or Police State where such things are a requirement of doing business, then I could see it as a realistic possibility.

Re:Because

[sumdumass]

It doesn't really matter because the government in america will never be in that shape that he described. The closest might have been in the McCarthy days but they are long gone. No one who is a threat enough to the current establishment or any future establishment, administration or whatever is going to be alone to the point that no one would miss them. The worst case scenario is that people around the person accuses the government of political misdeeds and if it is even remotely creditable, it would be all over the Internet with great fan fair. In short, the government cannot get away with doing the things the GP suggested and taking any actions other then hoarding the information.

There just isn't any realistic or practical way of doing it. Not in todays age with instant communications and easy access to broad spectrum's of large groups of people. And if you believe that the government can do something like this with any detrimental effects, then think about how grand of a conspiracy it would have to be in order to pull it off and keep it secrete at the same time. I mean they cannot even keep the secrete programs that they are hoping will stop terrorists from killing innocent civilians secrete. How are they going to keep something as retched as taking political prisoners to benefit their own campaigns quit? It just won't happen. Especially in todays ages where getting the other party elected and making the other party look bad outweighs any sense of security or safety there might be however misguided the actions taken in an attempt to keep it that way might be.

Re:Because

[sumdumass]

Te Bush administration is also trying to make the argument in court that the constitution does not protect the privacy of email. Data mining software might have noticed that email message where you were bragging to you friends about the size of the Elk that you recently shot. With these data mining techniques, they might be able to identify most gun owners.

That is a little misleading. Teh bush administration is saying the because their is "no expectations of privacy" from the terms of service contract the ISP offers when you get service through them that the 4th amendment doesn't apply.

This isn't a blanket Email is absolved from the constitutional restrictions or protections. You can host your own and the constitution comes right back into play. Your ISP can change the terms of the contract and the same thing happens. But when you have a terms of service agreement that says other people might have copies of, access to, or read your email at some point in time, they are claiming that the constitution doesn't stop them from being that other person.

Don't take this clarification to mean that I agree with their position. I'm only making it because it is actually a distinctly different issue then you presented.

Re:Because

[sumdumass]

Not even questioned unless something else points to him too.

It would be like all that, something suggesting that something bad was going to happen and it is supposed to happen at a place he would be at around a time he would be there. Of course a city is a place so I'm not just talking about "specific" specifics. But there is nothing wrong with everything until there is a threat of wrong doing or something of the sorts. Maybe even after the fact of a crime or terrorist actions.

And this is nothing new or unique either. They have done this for years on most all criminal investigations. If someone receives death threats or some other threats, they have done it. The only difference is that they already have the information and can click a few buttons to pull it up instead of sending a detective out to question everyone and think of all the angles in order to question others to get the same information. I remember when I was younger, we TP-ed the house of the vice principle of our high school and the cops found that my cousin purchased the toilet paper in a neighboring town before coming in to help us. So it isn't just on major issues. This was over 20 years ago when this happened too.

Re:Because

[mOdQuArK!]

And how would you rate the current ability of anyone to oversee the executive branch at this point in time?

Re:Because

[some damn guy]

"Will a gun buyer have that same level of privacy after 8 years of President Hillary?"

You're concerned about HILLARY? If they're tracking people buying pita bread how much worse can it get? Wake up. Ever buy ammo with a credit card? Shooting glasses? Gun oil? Never in your whole life? Hell, ever buy anything at Gander Mountain or a place like that? If you fit the profile, you might as well tell them. Madison Avenue is watching you far better than big brother could- all they have to do is put database A and B together and large portions of the Bill of Rights go up in smoke, 2nd included .

Scared yet? If the government doesn't respect the fourth amendment what does it matter? Why this administration though we all were screaming "please please take the forth amendment just don't let them send any more guys with boxcutters after us" is beyond me. Pretty cowardly really, in more ways than one. They want us to believe we needed to do all this crazy shit to stop terrorist attacks, when the reality was 9/11 was 100% preventable we just SCREWED UP. We learned a hard lesson, but we also _should_ have learned we didn't need to gut the constitution or give up our cherished values to prevent it too.

The terrorists can attack us even if we give up every constitutional protection we have, just like a criminal can still get a gun, but if we don't have the forth, the second doesn't mean shit. So I won't be taking any chances with Rudolph "W" Guiliani, who feels he has to be George++ on national security just so people forget his social views. That man scares me far more than Hillary does.

Re:Because

[cold fjord]

FBI Agent: "Damn! Now what? ....."

RETURN PERSON ID where RELIGION='Islam'

10,000,000 rows returned

FBI Agent: "Damn! The first query was useless, and this is way worse than useless!!"

FBI Supervisor: "No kidding. Now knock off that nonsense and get back to work. I want you focusing on likely patterns instead of feeding the moonbats."

FBI Agent: "Yes sir."

RETURN PERSON ID where gender is a male AND between 19-40 AND shops at Islamic stores AND has expired visa AND received large cash transfers from an Islamic country with Jihadi organizations.

15,000 rows returned.

FBI Supervisor: "Now that is more like it."

Re:Because

[_Sprocket_]

And how would you rate the current ability of anyone to oversee the executive branch at this point in time? And there's the real issue. It's not that government has power. It's an issue whether oversight of that power is appropriate and functional.

Re:Because

[mOdQuArK!]

If you severely limit government power, then you don't need as much oversight, since the government has proportionally less power to cause harm.

The one thing you DON'T want to do is give the government unlimited power without any oversight at all. If there are time-tested recipes for disaster, that's one of them.

Re:Because

[__NR_kill]

conclusion: bad guys pay cash; the data mining is targeting just the non-islamic 'sympathysants'; think twice next time you vote.

Re:Because

[meringuoid]

AND has expired visa

Nobody's questioned this part yet. Why does everyone think terrorists will have expired visas?

Re:Because

[CmdrGravy]

I don't think it's really a case of them keeping things quiet, it's when they can do things such as abducting their political opponents under a pretext which will keep the majority of people from bothering to do anything about it.

For example in Pakistan the current regime is making no attempt to hide the fact their main political opponent is under house arrest but their excuse that it's for her own protection is presumably a good enough for their supporters and the silent majority to accept this as being a non threatening and normal part of the workings of government.

Most Germans during WWII were probably quite well aware of the problems the Jewish people were having with the Nazi government but their supporters and the silent majority realised that trying to do anything about it was probably too dangerous for them personally and so it continued.

I don't think the US public are quite ready to accept this level of nastiness just yet but they did accept the pretext for war in Iraq and Afghanistan without too much trouble so living in a modern society with good communication is obviously no real defence against that sort of tactic.

Alienation

[explosivejared]

Why not just say anyone of middle-eastern descent is automatically a threat? That's basically what it's come down to. How in the world is food purchasing data related to terror suspects. Alienation only leads to more strife. This doesn't do anything but make relations worse.

Re:Alienation

[ByOhTek]

because, non-middle easterners might like the food.

And thus, even though not ME, they must be terrorists too!

*sigh* I didn't realize I was a terrorist :-( It's just that the food is so yummy.

Re:Alienation

[srollyson]

Why not just say anyone of middle-eastern descent is automatically a threat?

I think that's what they are saying. Or, at least, the articles are saying that they profiled people who bought foods that Iranians eat. From the CNET article:

The program, however, was short lived and was quickly "torpedoed by the head of the FBI's criminal investigations division, Michael A. Mason, who argued that putting somebody on a terrorist list for what they ate was ridiculous -- and possibly illegal."

Don't worry, though. Our hero, Mr. Mason, saved the day.

Re:Alienation

[toleraen]

It's just that the food is so yummy. I'm sure there's a bathroom + developing WMDs joke in there somewhere

Re:Alienation

[djasbestos]

Seriously. Shawarma with saffron rice FTW.

I guess I am a bad American for liking terrorist food...hummus...Hamas...same thing, right?

Re:Alienation

[MBCook]

Ketchup. They're seeing who isn't buying enough.

Ketchup has natural mellowing agents that help to keep you satisfied with our government and able to accept what happens to you.

-- A message from the Ketchup Advisory Board

(This is well documented. See here and here, for example.)

Re:Alienation

[eln]

So now not only are you a terrorist if you're Arab (or are easily confused with Arabs by Americans, like the Persian Iranians), but you're also a terrorist if you attempt to cook Middle Eastern food.

What's next, targetting people who have Persian rugs in their houses? What about Persian cats? Should I avoid chewing gum, since it's made with gum arabic? Will I be subject to arrest for having a copy of Disney's Aladdin in my home?

Re:Alienation

[inKubus]

Well, if you're not eating good Christian foods of good Texas beef and pork and Idaho potatoes, then you obviously support terrorism. Eating kebabs and lebni shows that you support the murder of 20,000 2,000 Jewish-American businessmen at ground zero on Nine-Eleven, Oh-One. And when you ingest the anti-Christ in the form of saffron-infused Basmati rice, you stand a much higher chance of being recruited by organizations wishing to attack Jesus America. Therefore, to be safe, we will be keeping detailed files on you until we decide that Islam is no longer a threat to Jesus.

Seriously, isn't this exactly like McCarthyism and the Commie witch-hunts of the 50's? And there's a lot of the same players, they are just higher up now. This is bullshit. Iranians are people too, so are Iraqis. Just because they don't believe in Jesus, shit ASIANS don't believe in Jesus yet we seem to love them. I'd say Asians are a much bigger threat to Jesus than a few crudely developed nomads. I forsee an ASIAN witchhunt coming soon.

So, to avoid getting on the watchlist, I've compiled a few guidepoints:

1. Attend an Evangelical Protestant Church, preferably with a band
2. Be white, of Germanic or Anglo-Saxon decent
3. Buy and Drive only Ford products
4. Peeling and Faded "Support our troops" bumper sticker
5. Never drive more than 10 miles from where you live
6. Only eat good Christian foods that are mentioned in the Bible. Wine, OK, as long as it's in a box.
7. Only purchase goods at Walmart.
8. Do not patronize convenience/gas station stores with brown people working in them
9. ???

Sounds a lot like Timothy McVeigh!

Re:Alienation

[Splab]

I'm from Denmark, so things might be different, but here quite a lot of Danes shop in middle eastern grocery shops. Prices are often low, they are often open when no super markets are (big shops aren't allowed to be open after 8 pm and may only be open some 12 Sundays a year) and on top of that you can get quite a lot of excellent tasting food not carried in the regular shops.

Re:Alienation

[idontgno]

You forgot to mention "Speak only English, just like Jesus did."

Re:Alienation

[Anonymous Coward]

Will I be subject to arrest for having a copy of Disney's Aladdin in my home? No, but you will be subject to arrest if you have the sequels. The bad taste police will be by shortly to confiscate those DVDs as well as the parachute pants you still have in your closet. Thank you, and good day.

Re:Alienation

[Anonymous Coward]

In fairness, the article says: "the project didn't last long. It was torpedoed by the head of the FBI's criminal investigations division, Michael A. Mason, who argued that putting somebody on a terrorist list for what they ate was ridiculous -- and possibly illegal."

In any big organization there will be stupid ideas. The important thing is that dumb ideas get stopped, which in this case happened.

Re:Alienation

[mapkinase]

We need to tattoo them in the foreheads. Or give them yellow armbands.

Re:Alienation

[rprycem]

1. Attend an Evangelical Protestant Church, preferably with a band

Check, except, shit I married a catholic

2. Be white, of Germanic or Anglo-Saxon decent

Check

3. Buy and Drive only Ford products

Check

4. Peeling and Faded "Support our troops" bumper sticker

Check, wait I covered that up with my Ron Paul 2008 bumper sticker.

5. Never drive more than 10 miles from where you live

Shit

6. Only eat good Christian foods that are mentioned in the Bible. Wine, OK, as long as it's in a box.

Check, I eat bacon all the time!

7. Only purchase goods at Walmart.

Shit, I go to that French store, Taget

8. Do not patronize convenience/gas station stores with brown people working in them

Check, I buy my gas at Costco and there is no attendant!

9. ???

I think I will go cash. Wait, that is going down by the minute. Maybe Euros! I am a good American, honest.

Re:Alienation

[Hoi Polloi]

I bought some halva, baba ganoush, and pita bread recently. I guess I should expect a knock on the door soon.

The whole FBI story sounds like they are trying to generate a boogey man where there is none (gotta keep that budget fat!). Iran and Hezbollah's focus isn't global but regional. If they have agents in the US it would most likely be for political or for fund raising reasons, not terrorism. They might carry out an attack if we attacked Iran but that wouldn't exactly come as a surprise.

I hope our relations with Italy never sour. I'd hate to be put on the no fly list for buying olive oil and prosciutto.

Re:Alienation

[n dot l]

This is absurd. Next thing you know they'll be going after people that like Chinese cooking on the grounds that they're probably Communists. Oh, that's right, most people that leave China (you know, the ones that open up Chinese ethnic food shops/restaurants) do so to get away from the communists. Has it dawned on these people that a large number of Middle-Easterners might have the same sentiments regarding the religeous extremeism, tyrranical regimes and terrorist groups that are common in their home lands?

Next month's headlines:

• People who eat French cuisine profiled as likely supporters of socialized medicine. Names posted, extreme-right-wingers encouraged to kill them on sight.
• People eating Mexican food deemed lazy. Fired en mass.
• FBI struggles to find uniquely Canadian food: "How else will we know where they all are?" Says spokesperson.

Re:Alienation

[TheGreatHegemon]

Absurd. My family comes from South Africa. However, one specific thing we share with Middle Easterners is a taste for Fig Jam. There's a Mom and Pops store of Middle Eastern nature (Apolgies, don't remember the specific culture), that sells awesome fig jam. Does that mean we're now painted as terrorists, too?

Re:Alienation

[CRCulver]

Has it dawned on these people that a large number of Middle-Easterners might have the same sentiments regarding the religeous extremeism, tyrranical regimes and terrorist groups that are common in their home lands?

I don't know about the U.S., but at least in the UK polls regularly show a disturbing level of support for Islamist values among the immigrant community. Many aren't trying to get away from strict Islam at all, they just want to bring it with them when they emigrate for better economic opportunities.

Re:Alienation

[hey!]

Because (a) it's never wise to say "things can be worse" in situations like this and (b) any such simple minded strategy is equally simple minded to defeat.

In this case, if you're a bad guy, you recruit some non-middle eastern nutcase to do your dirty work(they exist you know, Richard Reid, Timothy McVeigh), and you enjoy the implicit trust while you go about your nefarious business.

There's an elementary game theory result that says, in effect, when opposing sides have multiple choices of strategies, and there is no obvious best strategy which your opponent should presume you are using, then the best approach to playing the game repeatedly is to make a random, weighted choice from a selection of reasonable strategies. Furthermore knowing your selection of strategies and how they are weighted does not benefit your opponent.

This is strikingly similar to how cryptography works. In cryptography, a strong strategy is one in which it doesn't matter if the "bad guys" know all about your system, so long as they don't know the key you are using. In game theory, optimal approaches to games don't rely upon keeping the overall strategy you are using secret, so much as the move you are going to make on any individual turn.

Suppose you find that the optimal strategy for airport searches means that 45% of your searches are done on "Middle Eastern-ish" people, 25% on Europeans not born in America, 15% on South Asians (including Indonesians), and 15% on everybody else (including American born citizens). It doesn't matter if everybody knows this is what you are doing, so long as they can't predict who gets pulled aside for the search on any given flight.

Of course, real world games aren't quite this simple; information about the parties, payoffs, and available strategies on both sides is imperfect, for example. However such a simple minded strategy as pulling over all the brown skinned people is surely a losing one.

Re:Alienation

[Intron]

What it means is that they are justifying setting up the data mining by showing "terrorist food" searches as an easy to understand example. Once it's in place, they can use it for anything they want. People whose reported income didn't change but suddenly started buying the premium brands might indicate illicit income, for example. Or suppose you live in a city, but you order two tons of fertilizer? You could be the next Timothy McVeigh. Once you have access to the data, why not use it?

Re:Alienation

[Hoi Polloi]

Time to go back to using cash.

Re:Alienation

[Fear the Clam]

FBI struggles to find uniquely Canadian food

That would be Poutine.

Re:Alienation

[hachete]

you are what you eat

Re:Alienation

[dswensen]

That may not be an option much longer. Cash is already being discouraged by the banks as the tool of outsiders who upset the harmony of the social order:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-L5QGllGfU

You don't want to hinder the efficiency of the great machine, do you?

Re:Alienation

[Hatta]

Why is that disturbing or surprising at all? When american expats go to teach english in china, don't you think they bring their western ideologies with them?

Re:Alienation

[wiredlogic]

I don't know about the U.S., but at least in the UK polls regularly show a disturbing level of support for Islamist values among the immigrant community.

A lot of this is because of the rampant racism that plagues Europe. It's hard integrate oneself into a society that is intent on keeping you excluded. This ultimately leads to a lot of discontent and the disenfranchised young people are swayed toward extremism.

Re:Alienation

[anagama]

In the last year I've been increasing my cash use and decreasing my debit card use. This has made it easier for me to track my account balances (my accounting skills are around 3rd grade level) which has been a nice side effect of being paranoid about all the data collection going on. While I'm sure there's a tinfoil hat joke in here, sometimes it's smart to be paranoid.

Re:Alienation

[FatAlb3rt]

Why is it wrong to use statistics and data modeling to predict how to protect yourself? That's what it is. But I guess it just feels better to yell and scream about how profiling is wrong, all the while profiling conservative America in the very same rant.

Mod away...

Re:Alienation

[lib3rtarian]

Negative - Poutine is just the Canadian name for what everyone in Jersey has known as Disco Fries for decades.

Re:Alienation

[tftp]

Green, not yellow. But otherwise everything is developing by the book. Don't ask which book, though.

Re:Alienation

[Stradivarius]

Or why not just get over it. Because time spent doing stupid, clearly ineffective things like trying to identify terrorists purely by what food they like is time that could be spent actually protecting the public.

No doubt sometimes rules will be broken due to extenuating circumstances (e.g. your ticking-bomb scenario). That's life. But that does not mean the rules are without merit and should be ignored. It means that people need to use some judgment. And when someone uses poor judgment in breaking the rules, they need to be called out on it, both for their own education and others'.

Re:Alienation

[d34thm0nk3y]

I don't know about the U.S., but at least in the UK polls regularly show a disturbing level of support for Islamist values among the immigrant community.

It is the same in the US. Most Christians show a disturbing level of support for Christian values.

Re:Alienation

[cayenne8]

"A lot of this is because of the rampant racism that plagues Europe. It's hard integrate oneself into a society that is intent on keeping you excluded."

I dunno, I think it is more than that. In the US, we are seeing something similar with all the latino groups coming into the US illegally. In the past, minority groups, while keeping many of their tradtions, tried also to 'meld' into the US culture, learn English, etc.

You now no longer see this really....so manythings now are now labeled in at least 2 freakin' languages. People are coming here, and not even trying to learn English, and we're not helping matters any, by instituting schools now that teach kids fully in Spanish. When I took Spanish and French in college...it was full immersion, English was spoken only on the first day, after that, you had to start picking up the new language rapidly. But, no, that isn't working here...and it is further isolating that culture from the greater US culture.

I won't even get into the very disturbing thoughts, of those that say they want to come to the US, and become citizens protesting, but waiving flags of a different nation?!?!?!

I just don't get it.

If you want to immigrate to another nation....go there to learn the language and culture. If you like your culture and language so much, stay where you are...why do so many of these people go to another nation, and then try to make it the same as the one they just left??

Re:Alienation

[KudyardRipling]

Now that the word is out, these will now use cash to buy foods and other things that are viewed as 'ethnically suspicious'. Buying pork and beer will raise even more suspicion because it will be seen as a conscious attempt to conceal their intentions. I guess if I go shopping in a kosher food store, I will be viewed as either a Kahanist, Jonathan Pollard supporter, or even worse, someone who believes there is more to life than petroleum, uncontrolled borders, sexual promiscuity, and socioeconomic Darwinism.

How about pulling an Echelon? Get as many people to buy 'terrorist food' as possible and give them a headache! But invariably I will hear "Oh no, my cushy job, my beautiful house, my SUV, my entertainment system, my boat, my retirement portfolia, etc."

Re:Alienation

[Abcd1234]

why do so many of these people go to another nation, and then try to make it the same as the one they just left?

Because they're proud of their heritage, but want a better quality of life and greater opportunities that the US supposedly offers.

Is this really hard to understand?

Re:Alienation

[Minwee]

FBI struggles to find uniquely Canadian food: "How else will we know where they all are?" Says spokesperson.

Pizza. With pineapple on it.

The sneaky bastards even refer to it as 'Hawaiian' just to cover their tracks.

Re:Alienation

[Hoi Polloi]

At least it is a good way to avoid the credit card dept trap that so many people seem to fall into.

Re:Alienation

[DrSkwid]

Most non-white terrorists that have attacked the US were Saudi's not Persians, but the media world seems strangely blind to that, even kow-towing to Saudi Princes.

If you want to spread democracy, try it on the trading partners you sell War to.

The FBI's most wanted page has 24 members.

Usama Bin Muhammad Bin Ladin - Place of Birth: Saudi Arabia
ADAM YAHIYE GADAHN - Place of Birth: United States
ABDELKARIM HUSSEIN MOHAMED AL-NASSER - Place of Birth: Al Ihsa, Saudi Arabia
ABDULLAH AHMED ABDULLAH - Place of Birth: Egypt
AYMAN AL-ZAWAHIRI - Place of Birth: Egypt
ALI ATWA - Place of Birth: Lebanon
ANAS AL-LIBY - Place of Birth: Tripoli, Libya
FAZUL ABDULLAH MOHAMMED - Place of Birth: Moroni, Comoros Islands
HASAN IZZ-AL-DIN - Place of Birth: Lebanon
AHMED MOHAMMED HAMED ALI - Place of Birth: Egypt
IMAD FAYEZ MUGNIYAH - Place of Birth: Lebanon
SHEIKH AHMED SALIM SWEDAN - Place of Birth: Mombasa, Kenya
ABDUL RAHMAN YASIN - Place of Birth: Bloomington, Indiana
MSALAM - Place of Birth: Mombasa, Kenya
AHMAD IBRAHIM AL-MUGHASSIL - Place of Birth: Qatif - Bab Al Shamal, Saudi
ALI SAED BIN ALI EL-HOORIE - Place of Birth: El Dibabiya, Saudi Arabia
SAIF AL-ADEL - Place of Birth: Egypt
IBRAHIM SALIH MOHAMMED AL-YACOUB - Place of Birth: Tarut, Saudi Arabia
RAMADAN ABDULLAH MOHAMMAD SHALLAH - Place of Birth: Sajaya, Gaza Strip
ABD AL AZIZ AWDA - Place of Birth: Jabaliyah, Gaza Strip
ISNILON TOTONI HAPILON - Place of Birth: Republic of the Philippines
MOHAMMED ALI HAMADEI - Place of Birth: Lebanon
JAMEL AHMED MOHAMMED ALI AL-BADAWI - Place of Birth: Al-Shargian, Makiris, Yemen
JABER A. ELBANEH - Place of Birth: Yemen

Re:Alienation

[Touvan]

That's less of a problem in the US, I believe because we do a better job of integrating immigrants into the rest of society, over the course of just a few generations (look at the Irish and the Italians a few decades ago vs. today, in the US).

I further believe the primary method we use in the US to integrate them, is our secular free public school system. We don't pay for Islamic schools, in Muslim communities. When an immigrant shows up in the US their kids have to go to the same public schools as everyone else (unless they can afford private school, which usually isn't the case). This means they are socialized with American values, and not their old world values (their most important cultural values are often allowed to integrate as well, over the course of just a few generations).

It seems (and I have to admit, I'm not as familiar with EU policy as I'd like to be) that in EU in general, the countries are more than willing to fund divisive institutions, like Islamic schools in Muslim neighborhoods, which only serve to keep communities un-integrated generation over generation.

Building strong middle and working classes (which is the only way to fight extremism) is all about effective, and fair public education, to prepare students to take advantage of the opportunities made available by the market systems (whichever kind of market exists - usually a mixed market, despite the rhetoric). Culturally separated school systems don't do that, which is why it's a shame that the damn big business market systems ("free market" which is really just code for "fixed" in favor of big business) are all about privatization of even school systems - despite how effective public/free schools have been historically in every rising nation (this rant of course applies more to the US and Canada than to the EU).

Re:Alienation

[n dot l]

Given the fact that the better quality of life and greater opportunities are in many ways a consequence of US culture, yes, it is hard to understand. It's like saying, "I want to live in the rich country, but I'm going to insist that it adopt the culture that makes mine poor/corrupt/whatever-it-is-I-don't-like-about-it, or at the very least dilute its own ways enough that I don't feel quite so homesick." Honestly, cry some more.

The US economy was built by free, inventive, industrious people working with, as opposed to merely beside each other. That implies a common language and similar values (because anything else would hamper communication and lead to infighting). It sure as hell isn't natural resources (Russia beats the US there), or population (see India and China), or even religion (see most of Europe) that make the USA what it is. I don't see why this is such a difficult concept...

</rant>

Re:Alienation

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

I don't know about the U.S., but at least in the UK polls regularly show a disturbing level of support for Islamist values among the immigrant community.

It's like Irish nationalists in Northern Ireland when ethic conflict broke out in the 1970s.

Prior to the beginning of "The Troubles", in the sixties, most nationalists weren't interested in Irish or specifically Gaelic culture. It was regarded as fairly quaint and outdated, and even embarrassing. In the sixties, everyone wanted to be seen as modern. This all changed when an ethnic war with the more "british" unionist population broke out.

The Irish nationalists, en masse, embraced "Irish Culture". The Irish language, folk music, old celtic art, stories, etc, etc. Things that most people in the republic wouldn't be caught dead at anymore. There was a whole wave of this that emerged when major ethnic conflict broke out.

I think the current resurgence of "Islamic values" is a similar phenomena. People perceive there to be an ethnic conflict, and in many ways, there is one. As such, they try, perhaps subconsciously, to bond closer to their own group for safety, and to reinforce that group, and distinguish it from others, by regressing to a fairly exaggerated, stereotyped and admittedly romanticized version of that groups culture. A pity that in this case, the culture being appealed to is fairly chauvinist and radical.

I think it's even happening in the United States. Americans too, I think, are regressing back to some kind of romanticized American ideal: Ultra patriotic, Christian and Anglo-Saxon. Apparently, there has been a 40% increase in hate groups in the US since September 11th 2001, and there's that recent spate of noose incidents. Not to mention all the intelligent design, church and state, and immigration debates taking place there. I'd say these are all symptoms of Americans collectively regressing into a perceived idealized culture.

Better be careful though. When the Northern Ireland nationalists began to "Celtifiy", there was tremendous pressure for people perceived to be a part of that group to conform. If you were perceived as being patriotic enough, especially with regard to supporting the "nationalist cause". If you weren't seen to be a supporter of a 32 county Ireland, or had the audacity to associate with unionist, or protestant friends, you could find yourself being called upon by local IRA representatives. The line between cultural regression and fascism was a thin one.

Re:Alienation

[DrSkwid]

You don't need to go to the middle east, north & west africa are closer.

Re:Alienation

[ibbey]

In the past, minority groups, while keeping many of their tradtions, tried also to 'meld' into the US culture, learn English, etc. You now no longer see this really....so manythings now are now labeled in at least 2 freakin' languages. People are coming here, and not even trying to learn English

The fact that things are labeled in two languages doesn't indicate that people aren't trying to learn the language. That's always been true to some extent, as evidenced by the number of elderly women who have lived here their entire adult lives but never learned the language. Products are labeled in two languages is simply because it's more profitable for companies to do it that way. There are an awful lot of Spanish speakers in the US, many of whom don't speak English at all or fluently, so having Spanish on your products label makes it a whole lot more appealing compared to your competitors product who is labeled in English only. If anything, these products are enabling the Spanish-only speakers, not responding to them.

Re:Alienation

[WaltFrench]

... disturbing level of support for Islamist values ...
Let's be clear that England does not have the same wired-into-the-constitution protection of religious beliefs that vary from the majority's, that the US claims. Partly thanks to our Bill of Rights, we get reminders about the value of tolerance. It wasn't put into the Constitution just cuz it sounded like a neat idea; it is there to stop religious wars that wracked the continent in the years leading up to the founding of the US.

Multi-cultural societies -- and that's at least all of Western Europe & the US -- need to have ongoing dialogues about how religious values work into the social fabric. De facto aversion to another person's beliefs is a good way of deprecating their respect for your own beliefs, even if you think you're more "liberal" or "inclusive." Let the wars begin!

Sending the Federal Bureau of Investigation after people who like MidEastern food is a great way to send exactly that message of disrespect for their bedrock beliefs, not the violent political actions that a few advocate. This nonsense needs to be condemned as harmful to our interest in having all in the US having a sense of common interest.

Re:Alienation

[WaltFrench]

When american expats go to teach english in china, don't you think they bring their western ideologies with them?

It's an open secret that most Americans going to "teach English" in China are doing so as a cover for proselytizing their religious beliefs (missionary work). China officially prohibits missionaries but tolerates them under that cover.

Re:Alienation

[m2943]

Has it dawned on these people that a large number of Middle-Easterners might have the same sentiments regarding the religeous extremeism,

The situation is different for Chinese and Middle Eastern food: communists don't have any clearly identifiable food preferences, but religiously conservative Muslims do.

Re:Alienation

[moogle001]

It may or may not be surprising. It is disturbing. The ideologies of religious fundamentalism are often very disturbing. Not all viewpoints are created equal, and there are many traditions that we can consider barbaric (indiscriminate killings, stoning) instead of different (religious police).

Re:Alienation

[brjndr]

How DARE you!!

• Disco fries are cheese and gravy.
• Poutine is cheese curd and gravy.

It's a French Canadian food, but most of Canada has it. Actually, Burger King makes a damn fine poutine.

Re:Alienation

[hey!]

Yes, and Texas is even closer. That state seems to be populated with people who are either out and out crazy, or unshakably sane. The dividing line seems to be a sense of humor.

Re:Alienation

[ChuyMatt]

I think that they took pains to say "Islamic" and not "Muslim". There is a distinct difference.

Re:Alienation

[lib3rtarian]

Meh. Cheese curds are practically cheese, and the hot gravy makes them melt, and basically creates the tempering that would make them cheese. The difference between curds and cheese is a dip in hot water.

Re:Alienation

[russotto]

Well, that's bullshit if I've ever seen it. The very idea that the success of a country is dictated solely by it's culture (language, traditions, etc) is so bigotted I'm at a loss for words.

Who sad "solely"? That's a strawman. But it seems to me pretty clear that, other things being equal, a culture with a strong work ethic is going to do better economically than one with a mañana attitude.

You are, frankly, a blind, ignorant, xenophobic, close-minded ass,

Denying culutural relativism doesn't make one blind, ignorant, xenophobic, or close-minded. Accepting it, however, does require a degree of blindness.

Re:Alienation

[NMerriam]

Ketchup. They're seeing who isn't buying enough.

On the contrary, everyone knows that TRUE Americans don't buy Heinz, after all, John Kerry is a dirty liberal faggot commie who wants to appoint Osama bin Laden the be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and eat Christian babies with lots of his wife's ketchup on top.

Anyone buying the wrong brands of ketchup is clearly a terrorist supporter.

Re:Alienation

[davidsyes]

Alien Recipe?

Chez Voila!

Re:Alienation

[fwr]

But did they catch the bad guys?

Re:Alienation

[crystalattice]

Wow, when I first saw the title of your post, I immediately thought of the movie/TV show Alien Nation from the '80s. And then realized that it probably wasn't a bad conclusion to jump to.

Re:Alienation

[NMerriam]

Why is it wrong to use statistics and data modeling to predict how to protect yourself?

It isn't. But guessing at random stuff out of ignorance and then blacklisting anyone who fits your completely stupid profile, and then claiming it is statistical data modeling IS wrong. it's not only wrong, it's counter-productive -- it means REAL terrorists are more likely to be successful because you've just wasted finite resources on pursuing stupidity. You don't win a war by pissing off the innocent bystanders. At best, they're less likely to cooperate in the future when you need them to, at worst they'll now actively support your enemies.

Re:Alienation

[Jeff Hornby]

I don't know about that.

I was in a little diner just south of Tom's River about ten years ago and when I told them I wanted poutine and described it to them they were horrified. They brought it to me anyway and I let a bunch of people try it. It was a pretty big hit with everybody who tried it.

But I'm pretty sure that they had never heard of fries, cheese (no cheese curds available) and gravy before that.

Re:Alienation

[BigGerman]

Well said.

Re:Alienation

[jelton]

I applaud you on what I infer to be your near perfect attendance in World History 101. You seem, however, to have missed the day where they discussed objectivity and detachment from the subject matter, including the prohibition against imposing modern values on historical figures.

Re:Alienation

[davidsyes]

9.???

9. PROPHET

Re:Alienation

[davidsyes]

Curious that it is marked 100% Flamebait, considering all the other threads that use the word racism, call it out as it is, and offer all sorts of other ideas about avoiding racial profiling.

My point, which seems to have so torqued and tortured someone (who might keep coming back to reset my comment to 100% Flamebait) is that unless SOMETHING significant happens to shock the shit out of stupid fucking humans, humanity's history will to its very end be plagued by greed, pestilence, racism, rape, plundering, and more.

Whether the ME history is plagued with racial and secular intolerance and violence and the US history was one of Manifest Destiny (from sea to shining sea, with the near-total "expurgation" of the devil Indian kind...) would make for a nice discussion at the college level course/syllabus. Might get EVERY student in the class a rating of "potential Ter'rist", the professor/lecturer fired and on a blacklist, and those students shitcanned out of the work force.

As for flamebait, maybe my singling out Archimedes and columbus might have so riled one or more (maybe even a high-ranking moderator), but if our timeline WERE changed, then we probably would not have to have THIS kind of discussion/commentary. We might still be slower (there exist right here in the US MORE than a handful of secular types that want to crash the system back to the agrarian days (but might like to keep their Kalishnikov's and anti-personnel mines) in the name of "God").

But consider this: the body of evidence about CHINESE naval explorers suggest that they only ones who stayed in the Americas (and who pretty much preceded columbus by some 70 YEARS) did NOT ravage, pillage or destroy the America's natives (yes, some Chinese sailors were carriers of and transmitters of deadly diseases which DID kill off thousands of Natives, but it wasn't INTENTIONAL, like back oh, where, in New York, one very cold winter....before/around the 1800's ); rather, the ones who remained were those shipwrecked and ended up intermarrying, or they were part of forgotten, or abandoned, outposts.

HOW many other nations before the formation of 'merku sailed, no CIRCUMNAVIGATED the globe with PRECISION, surveyed and used advanced cartographic technologies of the day, and DID NOT evict, purge, murder or expurgate the locals. Yes, I'm talking about China of the 1400's, not the government of today. And those ship commanders were Eunuchs, emasculated men loyal to their country. Emasculate Europeans and ask them to be ship captains in that day, what would happen?

And, for the moderator who slammed me to 100% Flamebait: You might like to recall that "Columbus Day" in the USA has lost significant favor among many employers. It's not politically correct to shut down in his name anymore. Yes, some institutions still do. I know.

Removing a few nits and gnats that spawned destruction can only be a GOOD thing, if time travel were a one-shot deal.

Re:Alienation

[OwnedByTwoCats]

Right. "Islamic" is an adjective, and is used to describe things that are associated with Islam. "Muslim" is a noun, and refers to a person who follows Islam.

Neither of which are the adjective used in the original post: "Islamist". That refers to the political movement to institute government according to Islamic principals.

Re:Alienation

[Belial6]

You mean like witch dunking? You know where you bring someone as close to drowning as possible without killing them so that they confess to whatever the tortur... er... wet boar... um... interrogator??? tells them too.

Re:Alienation

[turgid]

Why is that disturbing or surprising at all?

One might expect, or even hope, that people subject to oppressive regimes might flee abroad to escape to a better life, not to perpetuate the misery.

When I was a child, I used to think that being subservient, obedient and unquestioning of authority was "good."

Perhaps that is one part of human nature that helps to perpetuate the misery?

Re:Alienation

[alan_dershowitz]

Try and stay on topic by reading OP:

Has it dawned on these people that a large number of Middle-Easterners might have the same sentiments regarding the religeous extremeism, tyrranical regimes and terrorist groups that are common in their home lands? THAT is why it's disturbing. The concern is specific to Muslim ideology, or the perception thereof.

Re:Alienation

[OwnedByTwoCats]

I encounter an awful lot of products that are labeled in English and French. That is not because of unprecedented levels of illegal immigration from France. The vendor wanted one product that could be stocked on store shelves anywhere in North America, and in Quebec, they speak French.

Could vendors be packaging their products for both US and Mexico?

Re:Alienation

[OwnedByTwoCats]

Another factor that assimilates immigrants into the USA is the fact that anyone who is born here is automatically a citizen. Not so in some other countries. They have 3rd and even 4th generation "guest workers" who do not have the same rights as those born into the dominant cultural community.

Re:Alienation

[cayenne8]

"And, for the moderator who slammed me to 100% Flamebait: You might like to recall that "Columbus Day" in the USA has lost significant favor among many employers. It's not politically correct to shut down in his name anymore. Yes, some institutions still do. I know."

And yet is it a federal holiday.

:-)

Re:Alienation

[cayenne8]

OOps...need to preview better:

And yet Columbus Day is still a federal holiday.

Re:Alienation

[alan_dershowitz]

I realize you were trying to make a joke. But the reality is that Muslims in the USA tend to be extremely moderate compared to Muslims worldwide, roughly in parity to practicing Christians in the USA. Muslims are not a threat to the United States of America. Islamic Fundamentalists are. Several of the 9/11 attackers were attending a particular mosque in the United States that promoted a fundamentalist philosophy that was not in line with most mosques here. The goal is to find the outliers, and the reality is that they are not going to isolate themselves completely from the Islamic community at large.

Re:Alienation

[davidsyes]

Considering that he and his brother LIED to the "house of God" (Vatican) and that his actions led to (colon)ization and decimation of a population preexisting before squatters arrived, it's tragic that this nation (ass)ails "ter'rists", but celebrates one of the worst anglo terrorists to stalk the Earth.

Re:Alienation

[alan_dershowitz]

Because in the studies he is talking about, one of those values for example is support for suicide bombing. It's not about values per se, it's about "Islamist" values. By contrast, Muslims in the USA are overwhelmingly moderate.

Re:Alienation

[sgt_doom]

Intelligent and most cogent point, Good Citizen Hoi_Polloi!

It is interesting to remember that the most high-profile case they FBI (Fools, Bozos and Ingrates) pursued was that completely bogus one where they attempted - and failed - to smear Scott Ritter with that phony child molester allegation -- promptly thrown out of court with the federal judge soundly rebuking those Feebs at the useless FBI.

Of course, the FBI should probably be used to such rebukes as they've collected a countless number of them over the past forty years. I once did a research project for a political organization on the FBI - truly a most useless organization...the true lawmen (especially of the 20th century) was/is the US Marshals Service - truly heroes who on more than one occasion, probably saved democracy in America. Truly unsung heroes (and heroines), indeed!

Don't forget, those clowns at the Federal Bureau of Investigation (what a misnomer that is!) sat on the major tipoff to the (alleged) anthrax assassin for over eight months - and this was after 9/11/01!!!!

An excellent example of the frequent cowardly behavior (and anti-American behavior) of the FBI - and the heroism of the US Marshal Service - is presented in a passage regarding the integration of the University of Mississippi by the Kennedy Administration in the truly outstanding book by David Talbot (founder of Salon.com) titled "Brothers: Hidden history of the Kennedy years".

Re:Alienation

[sgt_doom]

Another outstanding point, Good Citizen Hoi_Polloi!

It is interesting to note that First Data, the major corporation which handles the vast majority of online check/credit transfers throughout North America, did immediately and freely offer their services for monitoring by the Busheviks right after 9/11/01. They also have had a top position with the Council on Foreign Relations - which may be a pertinent point. Regardless, such financial and business intelligence is exactly why this crime organization running America today does such monitoring - be it by utilizing First Data, or AT&T switches, or any of the 70-plus private - online - contractors that have federal contracts to provide such realtime data to a particular office (can you spell T.I.A.?) in the government.....

Re:Alienation

[inKubus]

I'm not apologetic towards anyone, but the FBI could never get away with profiling White Evangelical Christians. If that came out, the program would be shut down. But because the White Evangelical Christians are running things, it doesn't. I don't hate anyone, and my rant was not hateful in the least. It was sociologically observant, insightful and intelligent, if you chose to read and comprehend it.

We intelligent people laugh at people who drive Fords, which are absolute rubbish. Behind the wheel of one, you will invariably find a mindless git because NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD BUY ONE. The fact that it's the bestselling automobile in America (nay, the world, but it's only sold here [~99%]) speaks volumes about the state of our population.

Additionally, the fact that the FBI is profiling people by their choice of food is laughably absurd, as many other comments pointed out. That is the point I was trying to make. I can just see people like Bush and evangelicals I know sitting around trying to find terrorists, like they try to find deer during hunting season. It's insulting to us as a country, America, to be so intolerant. And to think that by choosing to eat a certain food will make you end up on a list somewhere, REGARDLESS of your race, should be disturbing to us. But it's just one more in a string of absurd and disturbing things that have happened as a result of religio-hysteria in recent years in this country and so I have nothing left to do but laugh. Because WE ARE DOOMED.

Re:Alienation

[Jonner]

This certainly happens, but do you have support for it being a majority or teachers? In any case, the Chinese students and governments are getting the knowledge they want. Maybe Americans should be concerned about Chinese influence on our culture now that so many of them can communicate directly with us.

Re:Alienation

[degradas]

Why is that disturbing or surprising at all? When american expats go to teach english in china, don't you think they bring their western ideologies with them?

Well, I suppose that is because american expact was actually asked by Chinese to come and teach English in China. See the difference?

Re:Alienation

[mpe]

Why not just say anyone of middle-eastern descent is automatically a threat?

Because that would include Israelis, which just wouldn't be on. Especially as "middle-eastern" is the code word used in the US media for an Israeli caught doing something illegal/terrorist related. As opposed to "arab" which is the equivalent code word for someone from that part of the word who is not an Israeli.
To add to any possible confusion (especially to US "journalists") this was a conspiracy theory about Persians.

Re:Alienation

[mpe]

The whole FBI story sounds like they are trying to generate a boogey man where there is none (gotta keep that budget fat!).

Maybe someone needs to patent the business model of making up daft conspiracy theories to get public money....

Iran and Hezbollah's focus isn't global but regional. If they have agents in the US it would most likely be for political or for fund raising reasons, not terrorism.

Or spys to find out when weapons shipments are being made, considering where a large proportion of the munitions dropped on Lebanon came from.

Re:Alienation

[mpe]

Of course, the FBI should probably be used to such rebukes as they've collected a countless number of them over the past forty years.

Incompetent law enforcement may well be worst than none at all.

Don't forget, those clowns at the Federal Bureau of Investigation (what a misnomer that is!) sat on the major tipoff to the (alleged) anthrax assassin for over eight months - and this was after 9/11/01!!!!

Probably because the best actual suspect in no way fitted the "mad muslim" stereotype. A common problem with the FBI appears to be political interference with any actual investigation.

Re:Alienation

[mpe]

I encounter an awful lot of products that are labeled in English and French. That is not because of unprecedented levels of illegal immigration from France. The vendor wanted one product that could be stocked on store shelves anywhere in North America, and in Quebec, they speak French.

You'd expect them also to be labled in Spanish. English, French and Spanish would cover virtually all of North America, indeed all of the Americas with the exception of Brazil...

Re:Alienation

[instarx]

Next month's headlines:
People who eat French cuisine profiled as likely supporters of socialized medicine. Names posted, extreme-right-wingers encouraged to kill them on sight.
People eating Mexican food deemed lazy. Fired en mass.
FBI struggles to find uniquely Canadian food: "How else will we know where they all are?" Says spokesperson.

You jest, but I can easily see "People eating Mexican food deemed to be possible illegal immigrants and subject to further investigation."

Let's face it - if this story is true then the FBI going through these records to identify individual members of ethnic groups is on its face racist and therefore illegal. I'm fast coming to the conclusion that the 9/11 attacks DID destroy America - just not in the way anyone expected.

Re:Alienation

[mpe]

The Irish nationalists, en masse, embraced "Irish Culture". The Irish language, folk music, old celtic art, stories, etc, etc. Things that most people in the republic wouldn't be caught dead at anymore.

Possibly some of it wasn't even authenic in the first place, it is fairly common for people embracing a "tradition" to invent a a fair few things. No doubt Irish-Americans in the US also have "Irish" traditions which never happened anywhere in Europe.

Re:Alienation

[mpe]

The situation is different for Chinese and Middle Eastern food: communists don't have any clearly identifiable food preferences, but religiously conservative Muslims do.

AFAIK this preference is only by omission. If someone dosn't buy X at shop Y that could just as easily mean that they don't like it or they buy it somewhere else. (Things get even more complicated where you have more than one person in a household buying food.)
Even if you find out that someone is a religiously conservative Muslim is there actually any reason for assuming that they are more likely to be a criminal than anyone else? If law enforcement is going to target a specific group of people first it needs to be demonstrated that the group in question has a higher proportion of criminals than the general population.
It would probably make more sense for the FBI to routinely investigate members of Congress. Given that Mark Twain's quip appears to have some basis in fact.

Re:Alienation

[mpe]

Well, if you're not eating good Christian foods of good Texas beef and pork and Idaho potatoes, then you obviously support terrorism. Eating kebabs and lebni shows that you support the murder of 20,000 2,000 Jewish-American businessmen at ground zero on Nine-Eleven, Oh-One.

Things don't look too good for the American Lamb Boar...

Re:Alienation

[mpe]

Why is it wrong to use statistics and data modeling to predict how to protect yourself?

It helps if the statistics used are sound and rational. e.g. for law enforcement to attempt to identify criminals based on what foods they buy you first need to identify if there are food buying patterns which are unique to criminals. AFAIK no research has been done to find out if such patterns even exist. Thus the whole thing is pointless and it would be a far better idea to concentrate on law enforcement techniques which are actually proven to be of some use.

Re:Alienation

[mpe]

It isn't. But guessing at random stuff out of ignorance and then blacklisting anyone who fits your completely stupid profile, and then claiming it is statistical data modeling IS wrong.

Wrong in the sense that it is bad/pointless/counter productive. It probably actually is "statistical data modeling", just that the GIGO principle applies. However good your model in a statistical or algorithmic sense it dosn't matter if it is based on nonsense, bigotry or half baked conspiracy theories.

it means REAL terrorists are more likely to be successful because you've just wasted finite resources on pursuing stupidity.

If they have half a brain they can actually turn most forms of profiling to their advantage.
No doubt the majority of potential terrorists welcome the current "war on terror" with it's associated obsession with Islam. For the simple reason that the majority of terrorists arn't Muslims. Thus with the police all busy watching the nearest Mosque they have more time to attack abortion clinics, beat up gays, let dangerous animals loose or whatever else they feel like inflicting if their political demands arn't met.

Re:Alienation

[sumdumass]

Make relations worse? Are you suggesting that we cater to the needs of the terrorist and they won't terrorize any more? Please explain this idea a little more..

For me, It is a non issue. Our safety comes before the feelings of a foreigner. It isn't like the food purchasing history alone is going to get someone pulled in for questioning. It is going to be part of some other elaborate situation where something illegal or suspected to be illegal is going on. But that isn't anything new. cops have been checking stuff like this for ages now.

Re:Alienation

[m2943]

AFAIK this preference is only by omission.

You know wrong. Islam has a concept analogous to "kosher" called "halal". Strict observance of Islam is likely highly correlated with buying halal versions of food.

Even if you find out [blah blah blah]

I'm not saying that the data mining is effective, I'm merely pointing out that the analogy was wrong: Islam is different from communism in its relation to food.

If you don't understand why they are doing this, you can't argue effectively against it.

Re:Alienation

[sgt_doom]

Incompetent law enforcement may well be worst than none at all.

Actually, no. Incompetent law enforcement - and purposefully incompetent law enforcement (as in paid Feeb snitches to organized crime and the Sovs) causes far more problems than NO law enforcement.

A common problem with the FBI appears to be political interference with any actual investigation.

Now I have to agree with that statement as the same two middle-management individuals, Frasca and Maltbie, who either sat on, or refused to acknowledge all the highly detailed tips regarding the attacks of 9/11/01, including those from FBI agents working that area, also appeared to have sat on the Anthrax Assassin tipoffs - and probably because the alleged individual was connected with highly placed Bush Administration officials. All the more suspect, in many people's opinion......(Once more I suggest looking into the history of the US Marshal Service as opposed to the REAL history of the FBI.)

Re:Alienation

[sgt_doom]

One other item, most pertinent. In the category - a humongous category at that - of the FBI being played by far more competent people - that situation several years back when senior FBI field agents believed they had turned a Chinese businesswoman/politically-connected citizen of the People's Republic of China - who, as it turned out, the senior FBI agent was sleeping with - did give the feebs a bunch of wrong information. Remember Wen Ho Lee's life being almost completely destroyed? (He was the scientist from Los Alamos in that completely botched investigation based upon disinformation from China's Department of Public Security.) There are too many other like instances to list, but you should get the picture.....

Re:Alienation

[Rakarra]

One might expect, or even hope, that people subject to oppressive regimes might flee abroad to escape to a better life, not to perpetuate the misery.

Unfortunately, often not the case. Our most famous example, the Puritans who settled New England, wished to perpetuate an oppressive regime, except they wished to be the oppressors, not the oppressed for once. Whether they left Europe because they were oppressed, or whether they were essentially kicked out because no one could stand them is a matter for debate.

Re:Alienation

[tjstork]

it. The very idea that the success of a country is dictated solely by it's culture (language, traditions, etc) is so bigotted I'm at a loss for words. You are, frankly, a blind, ignorant, xenophobic, close-minded ass, and are an excellent example of the types of Americans many abroad, myself included, have come to despise.

Well, obviously you must be an American abroad because you were too lazy to cut it at home, so, we'll take your supposedly enlightened attitude and serve that up with a plate of insecure self righteousness, while the rest of real Americans go smoke a bowl and watch John Wayne kick some ass.

Re:Alienation

[n dot l]

Wow. Didn't even notice this reply till I saw you'd marked me as a foe while reading another comment on another story. I mean, OK, I was being sarcastic (what, with the cheesy "" tag and all) but ye gods, talk about an overreaction. If I hadn't seen some of your other posts I'd think you're just some random troll and wouldn't even bother replying.

Just to warn you, I am going to be somewhat sarcastic here because all the random insults you threw into that post just seem to beg for it. Try not to let your blood pressure rise too much as you read on.

The very idea that the success of a country is dictated solely by it's culture (language, traditions, etc) is so bigotted I'm at a loss for words.

Let's see, my post said "are in many ways a consequence". As has already been pointed out, the phrase I used is significantly different from "dictated solely". Ignoring the random insult you tacked onto that sentence, I'll elaborate on what I meant, so that you can either see what I meant or maybe attack an actual point that I'm making, rather than one you just made up.

There is going to be a difference between a culture that values economic freedom, innovation, and those that build their own fortunes, and a culture that always defers to existing authority, maintains the status-quo, or avoids innovating into certain areas due to religious or political reasons. You seem to claim that you're familliar with history, so you can fill in the names of the actual nations/empires/societies I'm talking about yourself.

Tell that to Switzerland, or hell, most of the rest of Europe, which is currently outpacing the US economically (or did you not notice the plummeting US dollar?).

Oh, I've noticed. Have you noticed how almost every explanation for this boils down to "it's not so much [country] doing better as it is the USA doing worse" (and that this is only a recent development)? Have you noticed the price tag on the Iraq war? Have you noticed the divisive, demoralizing effect said war is having on US society? Have you noticed how, er, unfortunate foreign policy decisions are making the US dollar look unstable, and are thus lowering demand? Have you noticed Iran and Venuzuela talking about selling oil in Euros instead of US dollars? Have you noticed the mountain of external pressures that explain the recent trend but don't say anything, either for or against, to the argument that culture has an impact on economic performance?

Apparently you are unaware that Russia was once a superpower, just as China is, today.

Correction, in several parts:

• The USSR, a geopolitical entity much larger and more populous than present-day Russia, was a superpower.
• It was primarily a military superpower: In Soviet Russia, power would often be diverted away from the cities at night and sent to various military-orriented industrial facilities. Yes, the USSR had an impressive army, but they built it at the cost of pretty much everything else - sometimes even including food production. The US had a military that could match the USSR's, and they still managed to build massive cities and fill them with nice things. And this despite the fact that the USSR had a much bigger land mass with vast energy and mineral reserves within its borders, while the USA was importing a lot of oil.
• China's recent rise to power coincides rather suspiciously with the CCP's decision to take the shinier bits of Western Capitalism and bolt them onto their economy. China's had its billion people for a long time yet it's funny how they never quite achieved much on the world stage until they stopped indoctrinating their people to believe that the only productive activity is that which the government calls for.

And this is just a non-sequitor... I'm dumbfounded why you even included it.

It's in there because I've heard religion (or lack thereof) credited for all sorts of things

Re:Alienation

[quanticle]

Suicide bombing isn't a uniquely Islamist value. The Japanese used it against us, and the LTTE (Tamil Tigers) used suicide bombers before it caught on in the Islamic world.

And all in the name of tracking down Turrrists..

[Bananatree3]

This combined with the "secret room" In ATT for the NSA, and no need for FISA court (which the judges themselves angry). Full disclosure, full steam ahead!

The Food Police

[timeOday]

You can't have a decent scandal without a snappy catchphrase.

What?

[downix]

So my love of Lebanese food will make me a marked man?

Re:What?

[CRCulver]

I know! One of my big hobbies is strapping on a bomb and muttering threats against the U.S. government, but with stories like this I'm afraid I might be taken for one of those terrorists.

Re:What?

[Gravatron]

Indeed. Aperently, terrorists can't eat anything but native dishes. This whole thing is so very, very stupid.

Re:What?

[downix]

Mohammad Atta ate for his last dinner...

at Pizza Hut across the street from the Portland Mall, in front of the South Portland Cinema, next to IHOP and a gas station. (I know that exact Pizza Hut) We must get the records of everyone that eats pizza, shops at a mall, watches movies, enjoys breakfast and buys gas!

Re:What?

[rucs_hack]

yes, if you shop in one of the mined locations.

If someone else who turns out to be a real terrorist, or even makes the list of 'shifty looking, might be a danger' shops in the same place, or turns out to have been there at the same time, expect 'inconveniences'.

Re:What?

[Applekid]

We must get the records of everyone that eats pizza, shops at a mall, watches movies, enjoys breakfast and buys gas! Dear downix:
    We're working on it. One step at a time.

Love,
    FBI, CIA, DHS, NSA, ATF, DOJ, USA et al.

Re:What?

[canuck57]

So my love of Lebanese food will make me a marked man?

Doubtful. Lots of people eat the stuff.

But think, they are actually targeting the terrorists. I doubt they eat beef hot dogs from Costco or buy Kentucky Bourbon. Terrorists are also transient. So a lot of one time purchases, or 2-3 week visits might indicate something. Combine this with other sources and at least you have a smaller, likely better list than going after Christian grandmothers looking for a nip at Bob's liqueur emporium. At least it isn't someone who is wearing a turban patting down the ladies at the airport.

At some point profiling is necessary if you want to be at all effective in identification of terrorists. But would agree if such evidence be used in court, it would be racist even to bring it up.

Re:What?

[downix]

Well, let's take this down a bit:

I doubt they eat beef hot dogs from Costco

Why for not? Mohammad Atta was a frequent WalMart shopper.

  or buy Kentucky Bourbon.

Actually, yes they did. Jim and Jack were two popular choices. Heck, Saddam himself had a thing for Johnny Walker. Osama used to be a heavy whisky drinker as well.

Terrorists are also transient.

The 9/11 cells almost all stayed put for months at a time.

Re:What?

[Culture20]

So my love of Lebanese food will make me a marked man?
I am impressed, sir. It's usually pretty hard for a male to get to eat Lesbian.

Re:What?

[kevinbr]

"....Terrorists are also transient....." So are business people. I travel a lot. I buy stuff sometimes in supermarkets. I was born in Texas. I am white. I like hummas. I like arabic food. I have been to Afghanistan. I have been to Saudi Arabia. I know of hundreds of people who fit my profile.

So am I a terrorist? Or a business traveller?

This type of search is USELESS.

Falafels, eh?

[shrubya]

Better put Bill O'Reilly on the airport watch list then.

Good thing. . .

[smooth wombat]

I always use cash when I go to Achmed's Food Emporium with his "special" back room full of "good deals".

Re:Good thing. . .

[kryten250]

I was just about to post a similar comment, they don't realize these guy's pay only in cash? Next they'll be tracing driver licences in NY, oh wait...

Re:Good thing. . .

[Rick17JJ]

Albertsons is the only major grocery store chain, where I live, which does not use shoppers discount cards. I shop there and usually pay cash. They would never know if I had ever purchased falafel. The local health food store also does not use shoppers cards. I would not want big brother to notice that I have never purchased any liquor and think that I might be Moslem or Mormon (I'm not either). At least, that occasional ham sandwich would show that I am not Moslem or Jewish. Of course that ham sandwich could have just been a trick fool big brother, did I ever actually ate that ham sandwich?

When most stores first came out with those shopper's discount cards, I disliked being told that if I refused to use the card, I would need to pay more. Do they really need to track my purchasing habits a database somewhere? Before long at the mall, a book store chain was selling discount cards to their regular customers. Big brother now probably knows that I read magazines and about ham radio, Linux, investing and dieting. Of course, I would pay cash and not pull out my discount card, if I were to ever purchase any books which might suggest inappropriate political or religious beliefs. Will cash be illegal someday?

Is big brother in your grocery cart?

Hey Uncle Sam!

[Bananatree3]

Quit sending Men In Black with their shaded-window cars into my shop! They're scaring away my customers!

Re:Hey Uncle Sam!

[Anonymous Monkey]

The MiB don't work for the government. Also, they don't care about terrorism. Now, hold still and look at the light on the end of this shiny mettle probe.

Just another reason I pay cash when possible.

[RandoX]

Buying hunting ammunition? Pay cash. Buying food? Cash. Fireworks? Cash. Whether I have a reason to or not. And don't get me started on those "in-store discount cards".

Re:Just another reason I pay cash when possible.

[RandoX]

Hilarious that the parent posted AC to avoid having want his/her actions traced back.

Re:Just another reason I pay cash when possible.

[Chabil Ha']

When I was young my parents stopped shopping at a store that used those free 'discount' cards. My father's reasoning was that if they really wanted to give him a discount, they wouldn't require him to have a card to do it.

When I was in college the local grocery store stopped using the blasted things because roommates would barrow each others cards, skewing the data they were trying to collect. Serves them right.

No, I don't believe in those things either. It's nobody's business what am/am not buying, regardless if the government is out to get me or not.

Re:Just another reason I pay cash when possible.

[megaditto]

Because the Big Bad Gubermint can't access slashdot traffic log files?

Re:Just another reason I pay cash when possible.

[VGPowerlord]

Of course not, he accesses /. through cash.

Re:Just another reason I pay cash when possible.

[0100010001010011]

Bob Dole has quite a few from me. I have quite a few I just found. Heck I even stole my ex-girlfriends when she broke up with me because I knew there was $100+ on it so I could get $.10 off a gallon of gas.

Re:Just another reason I pay cash when possible.

[$1uck]

And you don't think someone is going to construe that as suspicious?

You're probably being watched twice as closely now.

Re:Just another reason I pay cash when possible.

[Lectoid]

I have one of those, It's great.

Now my grocery has all kinds of data on Santos L Halper who lives at 742 Evergreen Terrace.

Wow!

[gstoddart]

If that's not racial profiling, I don't know what is?

Getting the information on anyone who purchased food at a Middle Eastern market? That's just crazy, and scarily over-broad.

Hell, I shop at Middle Eastern markets, and I'm about as pasty white as you get. I mean, where else am I gonna get some of those things? You can't buy them elsewhere, and they're just so damned yummy. Come to think of it, I shop at Latin Markets, Asian Markets, and Caribbean Markets -- does that make me a terrorist? Or merely someone who eats a lot of ethnic food?

This is like that now eerie joke about being arrested at an airport for "traveling while brown". Surely it's still legal and un-suspicious to buy ethnic food for crying out loud -- they're the only ones who have food worth eating. :-P

Cheers

Re:Wow!

[Russ Nelson]

As long as you like your ethnic food with bacon, you're safe enough.

Re:Wow!

[darkmeridian]

Well, it's not racial profiling and that's just proof that it's stupid. The program is certainly MEANT to be profiling by race/religion/ethnicity but situations like yours, where non-Muslims shop at these stores, reduce it's effectiveness in discriminating on these bases. This entire thing is ridiculous and I hope the government has better ideas than this when they try to keep me alive.

Re:Wow!

[Joe the Lesser]

And make sure you butter that bacon! And bacon that sausage!

Re:Wow!

[holywarrior21c]

anyone who purchased food at a Middle Eastern market I am college student and i buy cereal and milk and some energy drink from an indian grocery because it is only a block away and they have low price on these items. the grocery at my dorm is overpriced. so am i some strange hobo who lives on cereal and milk and energy drinks and also plotting terrorism against America?

Re:Wow!

[gstoddart]

I am college student ... so am i some strange hobo who lives on cereal and milk and energy drinks?

Yes. That's what it means to be a student. :-P

and also plotting terrorism against America?

Maybe. You could be well on your way to becoming disillusioned with your country's foreign policy, cause that's what they teach in them fancy liberal schools with communist educators. Once you're disillusioned, you might start demonstrating for peace, free speech, and human rights. Possibly even in a reasonable, non-violent manner. Once you start demonstrating, that could either lead to shagging unshaved hippie chicks and playing Bob Marley, or terrorism. Either way, you're a dangerous subversive who is a traitor to your country.

Your name has been added to the watch list. :-P

My advise to you is to start shagging them unshaved hippie chicks and protesting now while you still have your college years in front of you. You'll thank me later -- you can't grow out dreads once you have a 9-5 job, and patchouli doesn't go over so well in corporate America.

Once you sell out to the man and wear a tie, the hippie chicks won't give you the time of day. :-P Carpe Hippie!!

Cheers

Re:Wow!

[canuck57]

If that's not racial profiling, I don't know what is?

Don't think I would argue that. But were not all of the 9/11 terrorists Muslim of the same/similar race? I didn't see Spanish Catholics, Jewish, United or Presbyterians on the list of people who did the terrorist act did you? If you want to find them you have to look for what they can't hide.

And if it isn't about race and religion, you should read middle east history. It is all about racial (intolerance) and religious (cleansing).

There is certainly causality in uses of credit cards, terrorist meetings and relationships. Read a Wiki Causality. Think, if you know the times, dates and places of credit card use and where known terrorists have been, get an exceptional amount of coincidences in co-location of two people with a seaming unknown relationship can lead to discovery of a real terrorist or criminal element.

Good to see they are actually, as a government agency no less, trying to be effective against an enemy that hides in amongst us including children. They generally want to destroy our lives because of our affluence, race and religion.

Race is part of it. Get over it. Not my choice, just how they want it.

Re:Wow!

[nunyadambinness]

If that's not racial profiling, I don't know what is?

I think something that actually has to do with race and not food.

Re:Wow!

[Zenaku]

And make sure it's caffeinated bacon, to enjoy with a nice cup of baconated coffee.

Re:Wow!

[Johnny5000]

And make sure you butter that bacon! And bacon that sausage!

But my heart hurts :(

Re:Wow!

[Intron]

"I am college student"

You're safe as long as you don't eat either Ramen or Mac and Cheese. Those guys are dangerous.

Re:Wow!

[gstoddart]

Don't think I would argue that. But were not all of the 9/11 terrorists Muslim of the same/similar race?

But, surely you can see that not all Muslims are terrorists, and shopping at a Middle East grocer makes me neither Muslim, Arab, nor terrorist. Where did Timothy McVeigh shop? Should we star profiling everyone who shops at Wal Mart?

And if it isn't about race and religion, you should read middle east history. It is all about racial (intolerance) and religious (cleansing).

So were the crusades. I refuse to be dragged down into that argument, because I'm not willing to accuse the entire populace of the Middle East as being bent on racial intolerance and religious cleansing -- historically, Middle Eastern cultures have been way more advanced than that. Maybe you should read a little more of their history. When the Europeans were rooting about in the muck during the dark ages, there was art, architecture, and science beyond what my ancestors had.

There is certainly causality in uses of credit cards, terrorist meetings and relationships. Read a Wiki Causality. Think, if you know the times, dates and places of credit card use and where known terrorists have been, get an exceptional amount of coincidences in co-location of two people with a seaming unknown relationship can lead to discovery of a real terrorist or criminal element.

That's correlation. Buying falafel and tahini doesn't cause you to be a terrorist. There may be some correlation that the terrorists did in fact buy those things, but there's a much larger set of people who bought those things and aren't terrorists. In a country which is supposed to have safeguards against unreasonable searches by the government, getting the list of everyone who bought some of that stuff is completely unreasonable. Certainly, freedom of association means that it's perfectly OK for me to be in the presence of Muslims, Jews, and Wiccans without being persecuted for it. That smacks of McCarthy-ism to me.

Good to see they are actually, as a government agency no less, trying to be effective against an enemy that hides in amongst us including children. They generally want to destroy our lives because of our affluence, race and religion.

Race is part of it. Get over it. Not my choice, just how they want it.

See, the problem is 'they' becomes the set of all Muslims, in particular Arab Muslims. "They" become the boogie man, and all get lumped into the same category as the evil bad people. Hopefully people no longer vilify Vietnamese as the enemy, Russians as nuclear wielding psychos, the Japanese as a bunch of sneak-attach bastards, or the Germans as a bunch of aggressive people who want to wipe out everyone -- insert your racial stereotype, and you might get my meaning.

Historically, there's lots of examples where we need to get past this whole denigration of a whole group of people -- because, eventually, we have to be neighbors again.

You can't realistically conflate an entire race (group?) of people with the actions of the extreme factions that are included in that. I sure as hell don't want to be lumped in with the American Religious Right on the basis that I'm white and have a similar cultural origin as a WASP.

I simply don't buy the whole dehumanize the concept of the 'other' so that we can justify ourselves what we do in times of conflict. The crazy bastards aren't representative of the whole lot. Acting like every member of the group is to be suspected is just downright nasty.

Skinheads and the KKK want it to be about race too, but, I'm sure as hell not going to listen to them either. This is a bad thing for a government in a free country to be doing -- especially in one which has a long history of protecting diversity and individual rights.

Being brown, or eating food which isn't in the WASP history of food does not a terrorist make. You need a *lot* more probably cause before you start trolling information like this. Hell, according to TFA, event he FBI thinks this tactic would be stupid and illegal.

Cheers

Re:Wow!

[holywarrior21c]

Your name has been added to the watch list. :-P you scared me for second. You do sound like FBI agent.

Re:Wow!

[mdalal97]

And if it isn't about race and religion, you should read middle east history. It is all about racial (intolerance) and religious (cleansing).

I believe that statement applies to our entire race (homo sapiens).

They generally want to destroy our lives because of our affluence, race and religion.

This sounds like our government's propaganda and not based on fact. If you actually listen to what people have to say in on-the-street interviews in the countries which "hate us" and "...want to destroy our lives...", they say things like:
    - they like the American people,
    - they hate our government's policies (to a T), and
    - want to come to the US for education and work (not necessarily to immigrate).

Doesn't sound to me like they hate our "affluence, race and religion". It sounds more like they want to be part of the American Dream. Can you clarify something for me: What religion are we?

I don't deny that the terrorists are crazy. I do, however, worry that the fear mongering occurring in the US is doing way more harm than good.

Re:Wow!

[Shinmizu]

Come to think of it, I shop at Latin Markets, Asian Markets, and Caribbean Markets -- does that make me a terrorist? Or merely someone who eats a lot of ethnic food?
Well, yes, but you're a very special terrorist that's also a great dancer, good at math and science (and possibly Starcraft.. are they Korean-Asian markets?), and you also get stoned a lot.

Re:Wow!

[gstoddart]

you scared me for second. You do sound like FBI agent.

*laugh* Sorry about that.

I'm serious about the whole hippie chick thing though, I think it's the duty of any college student to explore as much counter culture as they can handle. You don't get to go back and do it later. :-P

Explore your inner bohemian, it can be fun and rewarding. :-P

Cheers

Re:Wow!

[zen-theorist]

your post is very very self-contradictory.

If that's not racial profiling, I don't know what is?

and then ...

Hell, I shop at Middle Eastern markets, and I'm about as pasty white as you get.

... being pasty white exonerates you from terrorist activity?

Sources?

[Anonymous Coward]

I like how the article linked as a source ("All signs point to...") contains the phrase: I have no sources at all for my argument today. I have nothing to back it up other than a gut feeling.

If you read the CQ article, which is the only source of information here (the other two rely on it totally), it is not clear that this idiotic program was ever implemented to any extent whatever. It may have just been some words written on a napkin after a late night of drunken FBI 'brain'-storming.

Patiently waiting...

[NetDanzr]

I'm patiently waiting for the FBI to knock on my door and arrest me for all the ingredients I used (digested) in my attempts to create the perfect stink bomb.

Credit card companies?

[sdjc]

Do credit card companies actually know itemized purchases from a grocery store? This would be required in order to find who actually purchases these highly specific terrorist-food items. Oh, and don't use a credit card if you're a terrorist (for the beginners).

Re:Credit card companies?

[gduquette]

No - but they know that person X purchased stuff at specific stores - which is the problem - knowing you shopped somewhere does not mean you purchased something nefarious.

Re:Credit card companies?

[lasse_dk]

Doubt the creditcard company know anymore that store and amount, but the store knows. Recently a murder was solved here by tracing a bloody shoe print to a specific type of shoe sold in a specific shop and then questioning the people the store had on record, bying that type of shoe, because they payed by creditcard

OMG! Imaginary Terrorists!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't believe the FBI didn't figure out what a stupid idea this was! It's unbelievable. Oh, wait...

The program, however, was short lived and was quickly "torpedoed by the head of the FBI's criminal investigations division, Michael A. Mason, who argued that putting somebody on a terrorist list for what they ate was ridiculous -- and possibly illegal."

Also....

[EaglemanBSA]

Also, what did they do with said list? Surely datamining usually begins with selecting a population and narrowing down based on some criteria, so you have to start with a large population (although I'm not condoning anything the FBI is doing), which puts this pretty much exactly in line with pure McCarthyism - just replace "red" or "communist" with "arab" or "terrorist".

What's scarier, that the credit card companies might be in bed with the government as much as telecoms, or what the FBI will do with their probably ineffective data?

What do you think "loyalty cards" are used for?

[Anonymous Coward]

In around 1997, Giant Eagle in Pittsburgh had already accumulated many terabytes of that kind of data from the loyalty cards. They had also approached a number of professors at a famous university in town on how to data mine that data. Think of what the big boys have, Ralph's and Krogers and what have you. At the time, Giant Eagle had pretty harmless intentions, they wanted to manage inventory more intelligently and do the basic marketing stuff they've been talking about for years with data mining. (I don't know, I sort of see it as a service if my ads are targeted for me, I don't buy feminine products so I don't need coupons for that sort of thing..)

They are also private companies, you probably never saw any usage agreement and maybe weren't even aware that they were keeping that data. You give them that information and they can do what they want with it.

What's more interesting is if this kind of stuff actually helps them find real terrorists or if the hit/miss ratio is more akin to just identifying Muslims or Mid-easter people. There are always the stories of the FBI bullying the libraries and bookstores. It's disheartening, it makes you think twice and attacks some of the fundamental freedoms but is it actually effective? Perhaps there are a couple key meals that can fairly easily identify the eater as someone who has traveled to the Afghanistan/Pakistan border.. And perhaps that increases the likelihood of you being a terrorist like 10,000%. Then coupled with some key readings you may or may not have read they can further increase the likelihood that you're a terrorist. I hate this stuff but it really works then that is interesting and definitely has impact on how society will feel about it.

Re:What do you think "loyalty cards" are used for?

[jrumney]

What's more interesting is if this kind of stuff actually helps them find real terrorists or if the hit/miss ratio is more akin to just identifying Muslims or Mid-easter people.

I was just cross checking the chocolate egg purchases from the loyalty program database with attacks on abortion clinics, and realised what a problem we have with Mid-Easter fundamentalist Christian terrorists in this country.

This might be rhetorical, but....

[zappepcs]

Why is the FBI full of fucking idiots?
Sifting through billions of food purchases is not going to find a serious terror threat, not even when combined with any other data. For instance: John Ahmed Richardson has decided to become a terrorist after being recruited by militant persons. First, his flying lessons will not raise suspicions. Second, his explosives license for construction work will not either. Third, the chemical contaminants he will use to cause an eventual shutdown of a power grid are snuck into the country. Fourth, he hates fscking falafel.

So, all I can determine here is that the FBI is only interested in catching the stupid terrorists, or only able to do that, and does so to give itself a good name in the view of the public. Meanwhile actual and real determined terrorists work in secret and will manage to do what they desire without tipping off the FBI, the CIA, or any other law enforcement group. These law enforcement groups had valid actionable information about the 9/11 plot and ignored it. What good will it do them to find someone that likes Turkish food?

They all look like idiots!!

Re:This might be rhetorical, but....

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Sifting through billions of food purchases is not going to find a serious terror threat, not even when combined with any other data. But it does mean the agents get paid.
And the supervisors get to have a bunch of agents working for them on a project.
And their supervisors get to show that they are spending tax payer money on counter terrorism programs.

And so the DHS empire with all its little fiefdoms gets to justify its enormous budget.

Re:This might be rhetorical, but....

[Bobzibub]

They're not idiots, they just have much too much money to spend.
Once you start targeting the general population, time to cut the budget.

Re:This might be rhetorical, but....

[duffbeer703]

They're not stupid at all. You're just not thinking... the point isn't to say "that guy is a terrorist due to his hummus consumption!".

They're trying to identify sleeper agents. They gather huge amounts of data from phone/email intercepts, and use stuff like this to identify social networks. One white guy eating pitas is meaningless, but a network of 12 people who shop at the same ethnic groceries who have one or two degrees of separation from a known terrorist is more significant. If you were looking for IRA people, you'd probably look at cultural equivalents to narrow your search.

I imagine they use a scoring system. You get a +1 for shopping at mideast groceries, +2 for encrypted emails to central asia, -1 for Judaica shops, -5 for going to the pork store, etc.

Re:This might be rhetorical, but....

[Ironpoint]

In short, government agencies are power tripping. They are doing it because they can, not because it helps them or us. They have hundreds of new ways and technologies to break the laws and no one to stand in their way. In the US, congress has already shown that they will do nothing, presumably because they benefit from all this crime. We live in an age where nearly everyone has a cell phone/listening device, everything we buy or do goes into a database next to our name, and there is a huge amount of computing power to process it all. It is the golden age for the corrupt, criminally infiltrated government. Who is going to stop them, the Bush administration?

Re:This might be rhetorical, but....

[fm6]

Hardly a rhetorical question. The FBI is simply a poster child for bureaucracy, politics, and obsessive secrecy run amuck. It's not so much that it's full of idiots as that it's structured so that idiots are guaranteed to be the key decision makers. It assumed its current form during the Teapot Dome Scandal when the Justice Department Bureau of Investigation was essentially decapitated because its top officials were implicated. New leadership was brought in under J. Edgar Hoover, who remained in charge for 48 years, until he died in 1972. Like many closeted homosexuals, Hoover was obsessed with secrecy, and with other peoples secrets. Avoiding any real supervision or oversight by his superiors in the executive branch or by congress, he avoided dealing with some of the issues you'd expect federal cops to be interested in, such as organized crime, and developed a nasty obsession with eliminating political factions he considered "un-American".

There are actually people in the FBI worth of respect. But they're fighting a losing battle against the organizational culture that Hoover created.

On a personal note, I'm very concerned that the FBI has taken note of my repeated purchase of halvah, a middle-eastern candy. I can only hope that they've also noticed that I've purchased matzo ball soup!

Re:This might be rhetorical, but....

[zappepcs]

I had thought that this would be clearly understood, but please tell the rest of us exactly what it is that most, or ALL terrorists do in the months before they commit their act of terror. Once we have that list, yes, unimaginably illegal profiling and data mining might net 'possible' terrorist suspects. Remember, you are not a terrorist until you have committed an act of terror. Possession of the Anarchists Cookbook does NOT make you a terrorist, just as owning a copy of Mein Kampf does not make you a Nazi.

Now, where do we stop? Lets look at what McVey liked to eat, and profile people like him. Perhaps we can also profile people that eat the same fscking foods as the DC snipers. Truly, a terrorist does not have to have any international ties, and thus you cannot hope to stop ALL terrorists. The law enforcement's record would be MUCH better than it is if they simply paid attention to the information that they garner with pre-9/11 methods. Oh wait...that sounds like I think they should be logical and use common sense... my bad

Re:This might be rhetorical, but....

[sacrilicious]

Why is the FBI full of fucking idiots? Sifting through billions of food purchases is not going to find a serious terror threat

You clearly don't know how explosive falafel can be. :)

Re:This might be rhetorical, but....

[Grym]

Let me say first of all that I don't appreciate the tone of your comment or the "overrated" moderation on my un-rated post. I specifically said that I don't agree with these types of programs. I even bolded the words as to stress that point, but I guess nuanced, considered viewpoints have no place during the "Two Minutes' Hate."

I had thought that this would be clearly understood, but please tell the rest of us exactly what it is that most, or ALL terrorists do in the months before they commit their act of terror.

What makes you think that all foreign operatives are completely random in their actions and perfectly execute their tradecraft? Everybody makes mistakes. Everyone has a tell. Further still, there are certain pre-requisites to pulling off a plan like September 11th, such as taking flight classes or going to terrorist-training camps or attending organizational meetings. There are also common mistakes which should be looked for, like buying one-way tickets, accuring large amounts of credit card debt, or calling all your loved ones the night before your operation. These kinds of things create patterns, which presumably can be found by datamining.

Do you really think that 9/11 was completely unavoidable or that the clues or predictable patterns of the relevant actors weren't there even in such mundane things as their financial records? Modern datamining can be remarkably powerful and predictive, especially when used on important, unavoidable information like financial records. There is simply NO reason to doubt that such methods could not be validly employed to find likely terrorists.

Possession of the Anarchists Cookbook does NOT make you a terrorist, just as owning a copy of Mein Kampf does not make you a Nazi. Now, where do we stop? Lets look at what McVey liked to eat, and profile people like him. Perhaps we can also profile people that eat the same fscking foods as the DC snipers.

Sure owning a copy of Mein Kampf does not make you a Neonazi, but would you be willing to say there's no correlation whatsoever between being a Neonazi and owning Main Kampf?

Listen, it's really a pretty simple concept that, in an apolitical context, would be completely undebatable. If you've got a haystack (a large dataset of financial records) and you're searching for a needle (an Al Qaeda operative) would you search through the haystack manually inspecting every straw?

One way of dealing with this problem is to use statistically likely properties of the needle to narrow your search. You could size, for instance, to sift out large pieces of hay and leave you will a smaller stack. To further refine your search you could density, magnetism, hardness, and so on and so forth, until eventually your dataset is of a reasonable size for manual inspection. Of course, it should go without saying that domestic terrorists would have different patterns of actions, and search criteria would probably be very different than those for Al Qaeda operatives. To go back to the haystack example, it would be like changing your search parameters to look for a plastic straw or wooden pencil or coin.

-Grym

Driving While Black replaced---

[Anonymous Coward]

with Eating While Muslim

Reality

[hlomas]

Maybe because the OUTSIDE threat in the world right now is Islamic fundamentalism which historically manifests itself in individuals of middle eastern descent?

Re:Reality

[jeffasselin]

How is it more dangerous than the inside threat of Christian Fundamentalists that threaten the very nature of the US?

Re:Reality

[KDR_11k]

And you can find fundamentalists by looking who prefers their meat helal/kosher?

Re:Reality

[Anonymous Coward]

How are EITHER more threatening than Canadians?!

Re:Reality

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've gotten to the point in life where someone has to explain the difference between working within the system to change it to your liking VS making demands and then blowing up people then really you need to consider furthering your education.

Re:Reality

[hypnagogue]

Welcome to slashdot, where bigotry is modded insightful.

Re:Reality

[gknoy]

Well obviously they are a major threat, but [fundamentalist christians] haven't been throwing airliners into major structures lately.

Instead,
- Some have started/supported military action with a foreign country which was unconnected with said attacks, and was not an immediate threat
- Some have put bombs at abortion clinics: i.e., tried to kill people to prevent them from having an abortion. (I think most of us agree that someone willing to kill another to get people to conform to their beliefs about what is "moral" is most certainly a religious extremist.)

Which bothers you more?
- 2,974 people were killed by terrorists on September 11, 2001.
- 3858 US soldiers are confirmed dead by the DoD due to operations in Afghanistan/Iraq
- Roughly 17 times more people get killed by drunk drivers than by terrorists in the US.

If we were concerned about TRUE security and public safety, wouldn't we be far more interested in preventing the deaths due to non-ideological causes (drunk driving, other car accidents), rather than waging war in other nations?

Re:Reality

[Stradivarius]

Because generally speaking the Christian fundamentalists are not trying to kill us.

Re:Reality

[alan_dershowitz]

How is it more dangerous than the inside threat of Christian Fundamentalists that threaten the very nature of the US? Christian Fundamentalists have been here since the 1600s and haven't turned this country into Afghanistan yet. On the other hand you look at sizable immigrant Muslim communities in countries like Canada and the UK, and people are pushing for Sharia courts. The system that gives you rules for how hard you can beat your wife and details appropriate punishment for being a rape victim.

For that matter, Christianity doesn't even have an equivalent of Jihad in either codification or practice. They did in practice six hundred years ago on another continent, but that really isn't relevant in the America of today. We've had a couple of abortion doctor shooters, which were loners and which has been uniformly denounced by all major Christian denominations. Compare this to honor killing.

Re:Reality

[DrSkwid]

the blow up trucks instead

I mean honestly, most terrorism on US soil is performed by white guys.

Re:Reality

[hlomas]

You can't compare a few radical Christians to the Islamic community (which rioted over cartoons at the provocation of a few clerics and keep their women in a state of subjugation), nor abortion bombings to the 9/11 attacks.

I'm not going to support the invasion of Iraq, even if it would have been a good thing in the long run if it had been a success (which it isn't at this point).
Nor are drunk driving statistics relevant. I'm all for stricter drunk driving penalties.

9/11 wasn't the caprice of fate, it was a planned assault that had a crippling effect on our nation's economy.

"When the stock markets reopened on September 17, 2001, after the longest closure since the Great Depression in 1929, the Dow Jones Industrial Average ("DJIA") stock market index fell 684 points, or 7.1%, to 8920, its biggest-ever one-day point decline. By the end of the week, the DJIA had fallen 1369.7 points (14.3%), its largest one-week point drop in history." - Wikipedia

Not to mention the Iraq and Afghan wars were a DIRECT RESULT of the 9/11 attacks. Those countries would not have been invaded if we had not had planes hijacked and hitting military buildings and skyscrapers.

9/11 had a resonant impact on our society, and we're still dealing with the effects of it today. So the 9/11 attacks bother me the most, and they should bother you the most as well.

Re:Reality

[houghi]

Generaly speaking, neither are the middle eastern people.

Re:Reality

[siriuskase]

Money and politics are the American Way, especially when used together. Unless you live in New Hampshire, your dollar is worth more than your vote. You don't even need citizenship to vote with your money.

Re:Reality

[qazwart]

So, that whole thing in Ireland was just a little misunderstanding?

It doesn't matter if you're Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, or Atheist. What matters is how you treat your fellow human being, and how do you look at yourself. If you think you're perfect, all those "imperfect" beings around you are in trouble. If you think you're 100% right, all those "incorrect" beings around you are in trouble.

Christian fundamentalism is a 19th century phenomenon, so it wasn't around back in the 1600's. Yes, there were religious Christians, but they weren't following Christian fundamentalist philosophy.

Like all other groups religious Christians have been both on the side of good and evil. It was the Quakers back in the 18th century who first spoke against slavery for religious reasons. At that time, all 12 colonies had slavery (Delaware was part of Pennsylvania, and didn't split off from Pennsylvania until 1770s). The Unitarians (Adams were Unitarians) later forced the Northern colonies and states to ban slavery. The Baptists (the first true fundamentalist group) spoke against slavery causing the Southern Baptists to break off. In the 20th century, Catholics and Jews spoke against the treatment of Blacks in the South.

Then again, slavery in the South became a prime Christian doctrine. Many Southern preachers were leaders in lynchings and the Klan. Supremest Christian doctrine in the mid-20th century supported the Nazis in Germany and were involved in the America First movement. In the 19th century, the protestant Know Nothings went on anti-Catholic rampages.

Then there were the anti-Mormon wars in Missouri lead by various religious leaders -- many from Christian fundamentalist churches -- in the mid-1830s. Of course, there was also the Mormon lead 1857 Mountain Meadows massacre.

It isn't Christian vs. Muslim. It is intolerance vs. everybody else. The fact that you so proudly wave the Christian banner and so readily denounce those who you don't agree with your religious views shows which side of the divide you're on.

Re:Reality

[forgotten_my_nick]

I am not sure why you got modded so high because your wrong. Christian Fundamentalists is actually a bigger threat to the USA as they actually hold positions of power in the US government as it stands.

You have the likes of Bush saying that Creationism should be taught as a science.

I would recommend watching God's next army (starts 2:20 in). In the event it gets nuked, do some serious research on Patrick Henry College, then come back and tell us they aren't a threat. For example they helped pass through a law a year or so ago that would hinder child services from investigating incidents of child abuse.

There is also Jesus Camp documentary but doesn't cover as much.

It is more then just honor killings.

Re:Reality

[Anonymous Coward]

"Christian Fundamentalists have been here since the 1600s and haven't turned this country into Afghanistan yet. On the other hand you look at sizable immigrant Muslim communities in countries like Canada and the UK, and people are pushing for Sharia courts."

I don't think you can get any more disingenuous than that. It is clear there are no "Sharia courts" in countries like Canada and the UK. So, a more honest phrasing would be, "you look at sizable immigrant Muslim communities in countries like Canada and the UK, and they haven't turned this country into Afghanistan yet."

Yes, Islam is a superstition that some violent, desperate, and insane people use to justify their actions, but so is Christianity.

Sharia courts are a threat to countries like Canada and the UK? Give me a break. The only actual threat to the justice systems of these countries is the War on Terror, which is seeking (successfully -- unlike your Muslim bogeyman) to replace courts and fair trials with kangaroo courts and military prisons.

Re:Reality

[Solandri]

- Some have put bombs at abortion clinics: i.e., tried to kill people to prevent them from having an abortion. (I think most of us agree that someone willing to kill another to get people to conform to their beliefs about what is "moral" is most certainly a religious extremist.)

As near as I can tell, there has been just one death and one injury in the U.S. due to a bombing at an abortion clinic. And those were due to Eric Rudolph, the nutcase who set off the bomb at the 1996 Olympics (i.e. he just wanted to build bombs and kill people, targeting an abortion clinic was just an excuse or perhaps a ruse to divert suspicion). As much as I despise abortion clinic bombings, it would seem their record contradicts your assertion. Whoever the perpetrators are, they're going out of their way to avoid fatalities, and doing a damn good job of it given there were 41 bombings between 1977-2005.

Re:Reality

[alan_dershowitz]

Christian fundamentalism is a 19th century phenomenon, so it wasn't around back in the 1600's. Yes, there were religious Christians, but they weren't following Christian fundamentalist philosophy. Why don't you consider the Puritans to be fundamentalist Christians? If Christian values are being promoted on both sides of a conflict, that's your indication that religion is being used as a justification rather than the origin of an argument. I think it's pretty clear that's what was happening with slavery and civil rights. The Mormon wars were over the fact that Mormons were infiltrating government and having people killed. You sound like a smart guy, so I don't know why you can't see that. On the other hand, Jihad is a religious concept that originated from Islam. I am not seeing arguments between Christians and Muslims over who does Jihad right, because It's a Muslim thing.

It isn't Christian vs. Muslim. It is intolerance vs. everybody else. The fact that you so proudly wave the Christian banner and so readily denounce those who you don't agree with your religious views shows which side of the divide you're on. I'm not a Christian. I'm smart enough to tell the difference between the substance of threats from Christians and Muslims.

Re:Reality

[alan_dershowitz]

You cannot see the forest for the trees. Individual facts are blinding you from the big picture. Here is what I am saying. It is a demonstrative fact that this country was settled by hardcore Christians from hardcore Christian countries. Look at where we are today. Now look at hardcore Muslim countries. Which countries run themselves suitably well to the benefit of most of the people in them, and which do not? Which ones practice pervasive religious intolerance at all social and political levels, and which do not?

Re:Reality

[alan_dershowitz]

It is clear there are no "Sharia courts" in countries like Canada and the UK. Try harder, I said they are trying to get them. That is say, when a population of Muslims gets to a certain size, they want to insert eastern jurisprudence into pockets of the western world. This undermines basic Western concepts of justice, and demonstrates a lack of assimilation on the parts of the immigrants in question.

The only actual threat to the justice systems of these countries is the War on Terror, which is seeking (successfully -- unlike your Muslim bogeyman) to replace courts and fair trials with kangaroo courts and military prisons. Try to stay within the context of my argument here. The War on Terror is not derived from any institutional religious concept. On the other hand, Islamic terrorism is, namely Jihad. The two are not equivalent, because the War on Terror and Christianity are not related, and in the minds of terrorists and many Muslims, Jihad is Islam working in harmony. You can say the War on Terror is broken and I would agree with you; where I differ is that I am saying that the War on Terror is not derived from Christian Fundamentalism, which is what I was talking about: equivalencing Christian fundamentalism with Islamic Fundamentalism. Christianity in some sense got us this far, whereas Islam got Islamic countries where they are today. Which culture would you rather live in?

Re:Reality

[DamnStupidElf]

Not to mention the Iraq and Afghan wars were a DIRECT RESULT of the 9/11 attacks. Those countries would not have been invaded if we had not had planes hijacked and hitting military buildings and skyscrapers.

Afghanistan; probably not. I doubt Bush could find it on a map (much less pronounce it) before September 11, 2001.

Iraq, hell yeah. They have oil, and they tried to kill his daddy. Can you see *any* direct link between 9/11 and Iraq? Iraq supposedly had WMD, but that has nothing to do with Islamic terrorism, and they had those before 9/11. Iraq gassed the Kurds before 9/11. Iraq was ignoring foreign policy and the UN and shooting at our planes before 9/11. Their behavior *did* *not* *change* as a result of 9/11. If anything, the war in Afghanistan was used as an excuse for going into Iraq, but I see no direct causal link between 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. If anything, Iraq was invaded because Afghanistan had already been invaded, and the war was going rather poorly. That's a secondary effect and almost entirely due to the failure in Afghanistan (and the ease of getting the public to agree to war on one more country instead of having to start it from scratch in Iraq). We still haven't caught Bin Laden (although we killed Saddam). What does that tell you about the relationship between 9/11 and the war in Iraq?

9/11 had a resonant impact on our society, and we're still dealing with the effects of it today. So the 9/11 attacks bother me the most, and they should bother you the most as well.

Only because you let it impact you. Three buildings fell down and ~3000 people didn't have to die of cancer, heart disease, or car accidents. Whoop-di-do; collect the insurance money and rebuild. That's the American way, not whining for years on end.

The only effects of 9/11 I'm still dealing with are the stupid airline searches that are less than 50% effective at detecting weapons, the reduction in human and civil rights that affect ~300,000,000 people in the U.S. and countless more in other countries, and having to listen to whiners like you who can't get it through your head that the 9/11 "terrorist" attacks were frankly indistinguishable from murder/arson. The murderers/arsonists are dead, and the people who trained them are dead or on the run at this point. What more can you possibly want besides a fascist police state?

Re:Reality

[rtechie]

Christian Fundamentalists have been here since the 1600s and haven't turned this country into Afghanistan yet. Look into the Puritans. Their religious restrictions were extremely similar to those of the Taliban.

On the other hand you look at sizable immigrant Muslim communities in countries like Canada and the UK, and people are pushing for Sharia courts. Unlike the Amish, who ask for no special accommodations. Or Quakers. Or orthodox Jews. Or Native Americans. Or . Lots of religious groups have asked for changes to existing laws or new laws to accommodate their beliefs. In a democratic society, people have the right to determine the laws that govern them. If a significant portion of the UK population wants Sharia and choose to vote it in, so be it. I seriously doubt this is going to happen. Conservatives (of all stripes) who travel to more liberal nations tend to liberalize quickly, usually within one generation.

For that matter, Christianity doesn't even have an equivalent of Jihad in either codification or practice. Nonsense. The Catholic Church (which is the source of Christian law and tradition, don't try to weasel) has repeatedly endorsed the killing of infidels and heretics, as recently as last year. Pat Robertson and other major American religious leaders have advocated a Crusade against the Muslim world, as well as assassination and murder.

We've had a couple of abortion doctor shooters, which were loners and which has been uniformly denounced by all major Christian denominations. The Catholic Church and the Southern Baptists, two of the largest American denominations (as well as lots of smaller denominations), have backhandedly endorsed these actions. Almost all anti-abortion terrorists are members of, and worked closely with, Operation Rescue, the largest anti-abortion group. In recent years Operation Rescue/Save America (who agree with you) have expanded their terrorist efforts to bombing mosques and harassing Muslims.

Compare this to honor killing. Honor killings happen in the United States, committed by Christians. You don't think there are white fathers that would kill their white daughters for sleeping with a black man? Or kill their sons for being gay? Happens all the time. Honor killing for rape, which is what you're taking about, is only common in nations that have a "bride price" or dowry. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.

Re:Reality

[forgotten_my_nick]

I'm not blind at all. US constitution was not founded by Christians.

I like how you side track my point though. Did you do the research on the money behind Patrick Henry? Have you seen how many have made it into government?

If there was a Muslim group doing the same thing they would be shipped to Gitmo in a heartbeat. You think these Christian fundies are interested in Religious tolerance?

Re:Reality

[GPL4ever]

I agree. Why do we need to be in every other country try to 'make things better' when our own country is falling apart? We should have spent the billions on protecting and improving our own coutry instead of chasing the bad guys all over the rest of the world.

Too dependent

[Etrias]

We've become far too dependent on technology for trying to do actual investigative work. Data mining for ethnic foods? What happened to having a spy network in places that have known terrorists or security threats? Is the will even there to do this kind of first hand work or have we just given up and rely on computer algorithms to do the work for us?

Maybe someone within the FBI/NSA is pushing for technological solutions to do this kind of heavy lifting that used to be done by people. I don't know, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. We're not a meat and potatoes society anymore. People of every stripe are going out of their comfort zones and finding ethnic food really tasty (I am one of those people within the last 7-10 years). Do I get put on a watch list because I go through a month where I'm craving a good gyro and find the best place to get really good gyro is my local halal shop?

Shocking. But now all this food talk has made me hungry. Thanks FBI.

Re:Too dependent

[cdrguru]

HUMINT (HUMan INTelligence) - the sort gathered by humans - has been downgraded quite a bit. Sure, there is more value to it but it was decided sometime in the 1970s or so that the US shouldn't be bribing people, including people that might provide valuable intelligence. So the idea of "turning" a foreign national to gain intelligence more-or-less went away. This had a lot to do with the Church commission stripping the CIA of funds and adding lots of oversight.

The US has tried to put US citizens into foreign situations, but that pretty much requires us to have loyal immigrants for non-English speaking locations. How many people do we have in Iran? Syria? Saudia Arabia? Damn few, that's how many. The idea of any sort of "loyality" to the US among its citizens is a laughable concept these days. One only held onto by some gung-ho Marines and a few others.

Besides, today the military is riddled with Muslims that respect Allah a whole lot more than the US. Some of them made it to Iraq where they got to frag their officers and fellow servicemen in the name of Allah.

No, I don't see any HUMINT program moving very far forward. Yes, it is known that it is needed at all levels. But today you are far more likely to spend 3 years training someone to operate in a foreign country and then have them sell their life story to a UK newspaper. 200 years ago such a person would be executed for treason. Today, they get lots of money and a lot of people saying they did a good thing selling out an intelligence program.

Data mining and technology never turns on you.

Re:Too dependent

[Etrias]

Data mining and technology never turns on you.

Now that all depends on who you are, doesn't it?

The Falafil List

[malevolentjelly]

I hope my love of middle eastern food doesn't get me deported.

I would be okay with this profiling, if they would be so kind as to simply publish the name of every falafil consumer in the country on a website known only as "The Falafil List". I would like this to come up in every day life. "I'm sorry, you can no longer fly on airplanes anymore because you are on The Falafil List."

Maybe they should make these people wear a band around their arm with a golden pita.

I wonder if they're able to track the purchase of tahini, garbanzo beans, chick peas, and lemons into a could-be hummos? I hope their datamining skills are complete enough to track those terrorists who know how to throw together a quick and delicious party snack.

Re:The Falafil List

[3waygeek]

Bill O'Reilly likes falafel too, so you should be safe.

Re:The Falafil List

[Mark Gordon]

Given their evident ignorance, I'd expect the FBI to track the purchase of garbanzo beans and chick peas separately under the mistaken belief that these are actually distinct. The most distinctly Middle Eastern ingredient in hummus is tahini. Of course, tahini can be made from sesame seeds, so they'd need to track those as well, but I don't expect the FBI is aware that tahini is made from sesame seeds.

Want baba ganouj? Use cash.

[raddan]

Are you f'ing serious? Isn't this exactly the kind of abuse that privacy advocates have been screaming about since the start? What does this kind of shopping preference tell you, seriously? For starters, it does not actually tell you if the person is Middle Eastern! There is simply a greater likelihood that the person is. But do we really care if the person is Middle Eastern? No! We're looking for terrorists! Once again, there's simply another, slightly higher (because, honestly, what proportion of Middle Easterners are terrorists? Very small) probability that the person is a terrorist. Now, I'm no mathematician, but I suspect that eventually, the noise drowns out the signal. The end result is intelligence agents wasting their time. I think it is pretty clear to everyone by now, that, if you want to find the terrorists, you need to follow the money. These people do not operate in a vaccuum. Traditional intelligence (remember when 'intelligence' had something to do with being smart?) is very good at this kind of thing. Note to United States: use your fucking brains.

Food Club Cards

[Dan East]

Worse than credit cards are the "Food Club" discount cards. Around here we have lots of Food Lion grocery stores (they're practically in every town), and they use "MVP" cards. Customers only get sale prices if they have an MVP card. The cards are free, but you have to fill out some demographic information on the application.

Those things allow tracking of every single item a customer purchases, regardless of how they pay. Most customers are completely oblivious to the privacy ramifications.

Dan East

Re:Food Club Cards

[veganboyjosh]

The cards are free, but you have to fill out some demographic information on the application.

I've only been in one store where i had to show id to get the card, and that was in Pittsburgh, PA. I was only there for a weekend; I made one purchase. I did save about 4 bucks, tho, so it was worth it. To me, anyway. I don't guess the store cares that one kid from Colorado bought some stuff to make PB&J's for the weekend.

All the other stores just hand the card over, and tell you to fill out the form and mail it in. Option 1> fill it out with fake info. Option 2> Throw it out on your way out the door. I don't think filling out a supermarket frequent buyer's club card incorrectly is against the law...

Re:Food Club Cards

[Rob the Bold]

The cards are free, but you have to fill out some demographic information on the application.

Food club cards are fun to trade with friends and strangers. Not so much to screw with the FBI or NSA as to pollute the grocery stores' databases. I don't think I've accurately filled out the application for a food club card since I realized what they were doing with them.

Re:Food Club Cards

[slashkitty]

It's true. I've spoken to a few managers about this. They would flat out refuse to give me a card with out my ID. I'm all like, I don't want you tracking my purchases and I don't want you sending me crap. They are like, well then, shop elsewhere.

Re:Food Club Cards

[north.coaster]

I seriously doubt if most people are oblivious to the privacy ramifications.

Here's an example of how the Wegmans supermarket chain this week used the data that they obtained from their loyalty card database to alert customers to a food safety concern. Obviously Wegmans is not trying to keep it a secret that they have this data. Apparently most of their customers are not only aware of it, but in fact are quite happy with the situation.

Middle Eastern Food

[clang_jangle]

Middle Eastern food is often favored by peace-loving American vegetarians, like me. :) So they get a list of "possible terrorists" which includes peace-loving vegetarians and possible PETA or Greenpeace activists/sympathisers, hey -- this may be one of the most successful security moves yet!

The Siege says different

[DrXym]

Anyone who's watched The Siege knows terrorists like eating pizza.

would terrorists really use credit cards?

[jollyreaper]

Everything we heard about the 9-11 operation (granted, it was filtered through the government) is that these were cash operations. And that only makes sense. Given the state of technology these days, the following rules for covert operation seem to make sense:

1. Operate cash-only to make your activities harder to track
2. Make sure you are not flashy with the cash, drawing suspicion
3. Shave the beard, drop the turban, live as western as possible
4. Do not flash the cash, keep yourself as average joe as possible
5. Don't use cell phones or be sure to swap out sim cards frequently, seeing as the cops can track the cells

From what I've read, the skilled terrorists really know how to operate under the radar. The covert communication technology of choice, the fax machine. Handwrite messages in Arabic, fax back and forth. The goverment agencies are short on translators. Even if the messages were sent in the clear, it would take them a long time to figure anything out, assuming it was intercepted. If any kind of codes are used, it takes even more time to figure it out.

Re:would terrorists really use credit cards?

[Anonymous Curmudgeon]

Which means that the FBI just needs to data-mine for hotbeds of cash use. If you're afraid to be tracked by your credit card and discount card use, you clearly have something to hide. Just remember: If you use cash, the terrorists win!

Re:would terrorists really use credit cards?

[adminstring]

Good point. It seems that buying Middle Eastern food with a credit card would be a strong indicator that an individual is probably NOT likely to be a real terrorist.

Re:would terrorists really use credit cards?

[russotto]

Operating cash-only is a mistake. Instead, the successful terrorist has to separate out his innocuous "cover" activities and his terrorist activities. The cover activities should use a blend of cash and credit, and the terrorist activities should be cash-only. Even better, the cover activities can hide the terrorist stuff. For instance, if the terrorist is making an ANFO bomb, buying a bunch of ammonium nitrate and diesel with cash will certainly set off flags. But if his cover identity is as some sort of farmer, then if he diverts 5% of the stuff he's buying for the farm to his bomb, nobody will notice anything.

PETA and Greenpeace both...

[iknownuttin]

have a history of violence among their members and organizations. They are technically terrorist groups. The same goes for anti-abortion groups.

That's what you get when you use violence as a means to your goals.

Re:PETA and Greenpeace both...

[adminstring]

This is not at all true. PETA and Greenpeace are both explicitly nonviolent organizations which engage in peaceful activities fully covered by the first amendment. They have never been convicted of (or even credibly accused of) any violent crime. Unlike the Christian Identity movement and the anti-abortion movement, the US animal rights and environmental movements have been responsible for exactly ZERO deaths. The reason they are currently at the top of the FBI's "terrorist" list is that they are effective agents of social change, like the FBI's last big domestic target, the civil rights movement of the 1960s.

So what do their computers think

[antifoidulus]

when I buy hummus, booze, pork, and pitas. Now THAT is a good meal!

Re:And all in the name of tracking down Turrrists.

[griffjon]

It's silliness like this that a good round of impeachment hearings would bring to light all at once. Sure, we get a trickle of privacy invasions, unconstitutional breaches, and so on. But then we're also /. readers, contributors to the EFF and/or ACLU (I donate to both), and generally tuned in, unlike most of the populace. A sudden flood of all the BS that's been going on in the name of counter-terrorism would be a nice slap in the face to wake people up.

Quick reality check

[Otter]

I know posting after the first five minutes on any YRO story is pointless, especially on something as inflammatory as this, but since no one will RTFA:

1) "The brainchild of top FBI counterterrorism officials Phil Mudd and Willie T. Hulon, according to well-informed sources, the project didn't last long. It was torpedoed by the head of the FBI's criminal investigations division, Michael A. Mason, who argued that putting somebody on a terrorist list for what they ate was ridiculous -- and possibly illegal."

2) "All signs point to the credit card companies providing this data" is a rather generous spin on a theory that the author simply made up.

3) Do Iranians eat falafel at all? I've never seen it in Persian restaurants. Or do none of you people know the difference between them and Arabs?

Re:Quick reality check

[Otter]

Oh, and:

4) If you're old enough to use a keyboard, you're too old to use the word "yummy".

Oh, I dunno about CC companies being the only way.

[idontgno]

All signs point to the credit card companies providing this data, and not the individual stores

I'm sure grocery chain loyalty card information would be a rich vein of consumer purchase history to datamine. The only limit to that approach is that such membership is optional, whereas CC is almost mandatory in modern US consumer culture.

Want to subvert the FBI?

[ThatsNotFunny]

Every once in a while, buy a little bit of ham.

You Might Be a Terrorist If

[tjstork]

Amazon.com recommends "How to Blow Yourself Up Destroy His Enemy Western Christian Israel Loving Capitalist Apostates And Cash In With A Big Virgin Bonus."

Picture of Mohammed:

O O
    |
\___/

Audit them....

[kilauea]

I hope they're PCI compliant.

Ha Ha! Joke's on us!

[Hoi Polloi]

This is an April Fools prank, right? I've been asleep for a few months and now the joke's on me. Ha ha! Very funny. It is a joke, right? Right? Please say it's a joke.

Re:Oh, I dunno about CC companies being the only w

[darjen]

You can always give them fake info when you sign up for a loyalty card. It's not like they ever check (at least places like Giant Eagle). And if the terrorists were actually smart I'd think they would use cash most of the time. As far as I know, most grocery stores still accept greenbacks.

in-store discount cards are great!

[vinn01]

I love the savings that I get using an in-store discount card! ...I should mention that I found my in-store discount card on the ground in the store parking lot. I have no idea whose card I'm using. I'll be sure to buy plenty of middle eastern food in their honor.

Re:in-store discount cards are great!

[Anonymous Coward]

Use it to buy wire, a clock, chlorine bleach, sugar and ammonia. ... and some popcorn.

discount cards

[jefu]

I keep thinking it would be fun to offer a randomizing service for discount cards. Get a web site somewhere and have people mail you their discount card with a self-addressed stamped envelope. Pull one out of a box and return that, and drop the one you got into a box. The very paranoid could do this every month or two. Make it very hard to track anyone's purchases.

Of course, then your name might get associated with someone who is buying strange stuff. But if that occurred in another state, it would probably be easy to show it had nothing to do with you. Of course the supermarket chain would be likely to never want to sell anything to you again.

I also wonder how long such a site would be in existence before the stores hired legal hit men to take it down in court.

Re:discount cards

[NeutronCowboy]

I do this at least once a month.

"Hi, do you have a [StoreCard]?"
"Ah, sorry, I forgot it at home. No, I don't remember the phone number on it, as I moved a few times. Do you have a new one?"

They either hand me a brand new one that has no information associated with it, or the clerk swipes his/her own.

Easy as pie, automatic wipe of my store record if they get me a new one. The only way they can track me is if they cross-reference the name on the credit card, rather than just the number. Judging from the state of most databases and the problem of duplicate names, that's unlikely to be there.

Re:discount cards

[sacrilicious]

I also wonder how long such a site would be in existence before the stores hired legal hit men to take it down in court.

The website approach requires that people trust that the website isn't being run by the govt, or by someone who'll bend over to the govt.

But luckily, a website isn't the only possible approach. It could be simply a local thing, same scale/feel as a flea market. Hell, it could be a roving hot-dog stand. Drop a card, get a card.

Re:discount cards

[welcher]

or when that doesn't work, just ask the person behind you in the queue to borrow theirs.

Re:discount cards

[Braino420]

I keep thinking it would be fun to offer a randomizing service for discount cards

I'm confused. How about you just don't register your discount card? Or, if you have to, register it under a false name.

Re:discount cards

[arashi no garou]

Exactly. Mickey Mouse has been shopping at my local Kroger for quite some time now thanks to me.

Re:discount cards

[Rick17JJ]

Where I live there are still two grocery stores in town that do not use discount cards, so I do most of my shopping there and frequently pay with cash. One is Albertsons and the other is the New Frontiers health food store. I have always disliked grocery stores who want to charge me more if I won't identify myself with a discount card.

Is big brother in your grocery cart?

I Don't Think Whole Foods Does...

[Greyfox]

I went down there on a cheese run and my room mate opted to come along because she needed a few items. She doesn't tend to shop down there as the prices tend to be higher and it's a bit farther from the house than the other grocery stores. So when we get up to the checkout counter my room mate inquires if they have a discount card. The clerk says, in that paranoid tone usually reserved for tinfoil-hat-wearing slashdot posters, "Oh, we don't do that. We don't track our customers." So if you want your derka derka, Whole Foods is where it's at (But only pay cash derka allah jihad!)

Invalid...

[kitsunewarlock]

You know the last meal of the terrorists prior to 9/11 was Pizza Hut, right?

Mmm...cheesy, greasy and cheap middle eastern cuisine...

Maybe that's why...no...too easy.

Re:Invalid...

[n dot l]

This just in: irony gains new meaning as 8 out of 10 terrorists say "freedom fries" better than falafels. All this and more at 11.

Persecution of differences

[TheMeuge]

I think that it's even more insidious than what you describe. It's not even being Middle Eastern that attracts the attention of authorities in this matter, but rather what food you purchase.

This isn't even targeted ethnic discrimination, but rather a blatant foray into the realm of persecuting any deviation from the "american norm". To me, this says: "What, you don't purchase apple pies, soda, and hamburger? Instead you buy pita, chickpeas, and lamb? You're not like us... thus you are an enemy"

This is not just ethnic profiling run amock, but rather the beginnings of persecuting any differences from the average. The logical continuation of this policy would be to data mine television watching habits, and blacklist those who do not watch reality TV... or better yet, flag anyone whose TV is turned on for less than 2 hours per day.

Re:Persecution of differences

[patchvonbraun]

Don't give the morons ideas, buddy!

I buy my lamb from a Halal market, and I don't watch television, period.

I'm not Muslim, but getting decent lamb anywhere but at the local Halal market is rather difficult.

I'm doomed, I tell you, doomed!

Re:Time to...

[jrumney]

If the FBI are really smart, they'll track who's buying compasses so they can slaughter their animals facing Mecca. All those Boy Scouts out there better prepare for when the squat team comes to smash their door in and fill their houses with tear gas.

Looking for terrorists? Try the white pages first

[bigtrike]

Perhaps our government should try more conventional methods of finding wanted terrorists first? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nawaf-phonebook.jpg

Re:Oh, I dunno about CC companies being the only w

[idontgno]

Oh, I agree. But you're arguing how real terrorists are cautious enough to avoid such obvious giveaways, whereas the current state of security theater requires much more "willing suspension of disbelief."

In other words, stop being so logical. You have to clap or Tinkerbell will blow up Western Civilization As We Know It!

Amendment IV

[DragonTHC]

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." - The Constitution of the United States of America.

the FBI is violating the constitution.

We as citizens have a duty to protect the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. It's time to vote on the side of the Constitution. There are plenty of domestic enemies to the Constitution. Vote for America. Vote for freedom. Vote for justice. Vote your senators and congresspeople out of their cushy complacent jobs. Vote in people who have American values. Freedom of speech, press, religion, assembly.

FUD

[ericrost]

Cite sources if you're going to spread FUD. Neither Greenpeace nor PETA are terrorist organizations. Neither have been involved in loss of life from organized violent activities. The worst you can say about either is they made some corporations lose money.

If that's the new level for "terrorists" I don't want to live here anymore.

They really should...

[keirre23hu]

his hot air content could cause cabin destabilization

Blame it on FirstData

[mpapet]

"the credit card companies" is a misnomer. The company that issues the plastic with the embossed account number and mag stripe is the equivalent of the street-corner crack dealer. The manufacturer in this example is Concord/FirstData. All of your payment card transactions eventually pass through FirstData/Concord. As the AT&T/NSA story points out, it's pretty easy to copy the data and send it off to Law Enforcement.

"First Data Corporation is wholly owned by affiliates of Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. (KKR)." Who are those affiliates? http://www.firstdata.com/about/index.htm

Obviously, I have a strong bias against "easy credit". If I'm wrong, then someone please correct me.

Re:Blame it on FirstData

[Alpha830RulZ]

Actually, we only process about 52% of the transactions. (Disclosure, yup, that's where I work). We don't issue the plastic, that's done by the bank. We (and others) run ATM and credit card processing systems that make the transactions happen. In those transactions, no data comes across the wire about the goods purchased, or -any- information about you other than the merchant, time and date information, transaction amount, and your card number. Actual data about the goods purchased, etc, is maintained in the merchant's systems, and we don't see it. Actual data about you is retained by the account owner (your bank or your card issuer). We don't see any of that, either. We have -nothing- to do with credit issuance.

The 'affiliates' of KKR are similar the legal vehicles put in place when KKR purchased us. There's not a lot that is nerarious going on there. KKR purchased us because they think they can make us more efficient and resell us. My guess is that they are correct.

Re:Blame it on FirstData

[mpapet]

merchant, time and date information, transaction amount, and your card number.

I don't know how you can claim that's not personally identifiable information because an association between me and my payment card exists through the credit reporting FirstData supplies.

If FirstData processes half, then whose the other half?

Thanks for the update.

Re:Blame it on FirstData

[Alpha830RulZ]

First, personally identifable information has a pretty precise meaning in the industry. It associates you with information that can be used to access your information. You're correct in that the account number is pretty sensitive, but it's not there gratuitously - it's the core of what is going on. What isn't there is your name, address, phone number, social security number, secret question, etc. It's only the information needed to process the transaction. These latter pieces are what you really want to be concerned about, as they can be used to assume your identity. Your credit card number/bank card number can't be used to do that. It can only be used to attempt a transaction.

Second, First Data doesn't do credit reporting. Credit reporting is done by Transunion, Equifax, and Fair Isaacs, among others. They in turn receive information from various credit issuers about your payment status, which information you agreed to release as part of your credit agreement. We don't have -anything- to do with that. The information comes from your card issuer/bank.

The actual bill creation is a separate process from the purchase transaction processing. This is done in a variety of different ways, by a variety of different companies. It is the responsibility of the card issuer, but many if not most of these outsource to various processing houses. To be honest, I don't know whether we do any of that, but I doubt it.

Total Information Awareness

[conureman]

If I was a fanatical paranoid FREAK who was, say, running the NSA or something, I'd have a farm of supercomputers in Virginia or someplace running dozens of these operations already. The supermarket data is probably second only to the communications monitoring for analysis of The People. And of course total manipulation of the consumers is another practical application of this technology. Next time Law Enforcement Apologists cry about their lack of resources, remember how well they use what they have already. I actually don't own a tin hat. But I plan on being among the first to check in at the re-education center, once We The People build it.

Obligatory American Dad quote

[shoptroll]

Sir, I saw Johnson eating a Filafil, he's a terrorist!

A lot of speculation but no...

[Bryansix]

These articles have a lot of speculation and poke a lot of fun but they don't say if the searches in coordination with other surveilance resulted in any arrests or the stopping of any plots.

More completely unsubstantiated BS on /.

[MacDork]

Completely unsubstantiated BS on /.!?! What a surprise! If it's a slow news day, how about doing followups to a previous story like donttasemebro. Seems he has apologized. Or maybe, if you're going to be posting stories like donttasemebro that really have nothing to do with YRO anyway, you could cover other rights violations like the sleeping man who was tased in his own home and then tased again and arrested by police after he identified himself. Yeah, he was a black guy. There's even followup to that story. The police were cleared of any criminal wrongdoing. I guess real stories from actual newspapers are less important that made up shit from cheetos eating bloggers... News for nerds indeed. Tall tales for gullible suckers is more like it.

Speculation may be flawed

[motorsabbath]

If I understand the process correctly, in most cases credit card companies do not have information on individual cardholders and only see the card numbers - the issuing banks are the ones that maintain the meta data. I think, based on that premise (which is correct for at least one CC company), this article may be wrong. Speculation piled upon speculation, though.

Re:Speculation may be flawed

[homer_ca]

That's easy. So the feds go to five banks instead of two credit card payment processors (small groceries don't usually take American Express). What does that cover, maybe 75% of all credit cards?

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/analytical/banking/2005nov/Art2table2.html

Remember Bank of America bought MBNA.

Don't wanna be an Idiot American

[Catbeller]

I look forward to news of the the FBI energetically scanning watermelon purchases to identify future convenience store robbers. Hey, maybe Jewish delis to screen for possible accounting crimes! Salami on rye, born to fry.

Hey, anyone keeping tabs on pasty purchases in the UP? Timothy McVeigh was the only domestic terrorist to actually blow up a Federal building complete with a day care center. He was a member of the Michigan Militia, a armed terror group dedicated to violently taking out the Federal government, come the day. I assume we've rounded them all up and are currently half-drowning them daily in Cuba? [crickets]

Re:Don't wanna be an Idiot American

[adminstring]

A little factual correction: The Michigan Militia was armed, but they weren't a terror group, and while they didn't approve of certain actions of the Federal Government (particularly Waco and Ruby Ridge) they weren't dedicated to violently taking it out. All of those things were erroneously reported following the arrest of Timothy McVeigh (who, it turns out, was never even a member of the Michigan Militia.) The only thing McVeigh and the Michigan Militia had in common was that they both liked guns, and they both distrusted the Federal government. Which you could probably say is true for about 25% of Michigan residents.

Here's the Michigan Militia's position on terrorism, taken from a historical copy of their website:

What about terrorism, you ask? We absolutely condemn it. Terrorism is cowardly, moronic, and counter-productive. All that terrorism brings is more oppressive laws and the ability of law enforcement to invade into our lives even more (see the various Anti-Terrorism Bills since 1995). Bomb-making and other such illegal activities are strictly prohibited by the Michigan Militia Corps, we have even kicked several individuals out of our organization and turned them into the local Sheriff for partaking in such activities. We do not condone it, period.

Re:Don't wanna be an Idiot American

[Catbeller]

I'm aware he wasn't, and that they aren't. But under current definitions, reality doesn't matter. If you're brown. Just suspicion is enough to get you taken away to be drowned, imprisoned or hosed down in a freezing room naked. The Militia doesn't get water piped into their lungs because they're white and popular - get it? If an armed Islamic group existed in America and a peripheral member bombed a Federal building, we'd have rounded them all up and they'd be lucky if they died early in the torture, else they'd be in solitary until they died.

Re:Don't wanna be an Idiot American

[Catbeller]

Just thought of something -- we "know" that he wasn't a member because he said he wasn't and they said he wasn't. Why do we "know" they told the truth? Why do white affiliates of terrorists get the benefit of the doubt while brown ones get tubes shoved into their mouths and are forced to inhale the water, over and over again?

How dare you!

[nunyadambinness]

How dare you interrupt the daily Slashdot circle-jerk of hyperbolic privacy ranting with FACTS!

You sir, are obviously a terrorist.

This shows the problem with these databases...

[dtjohnson]

The problem with these databases such as supermarket loyalty card purchase records, cell phone/gps movements, IP logs, public library checkout history, google searches, medical databases, and the like is that they can be used to get a good picture of who you are and what you are doing, without ever contacting you or seeking your permission. If the data exists, someone WILL use it, nevermind how many rules exist to keep it 'private.' No one who collects this kind of data is your friend, whatever they say to the contrary, and you should treat them accordingly.

Separation of Commerce and State

[Fishbulb]

What we need is a separation of Commerce and State, just like the separation of Church and State. And I know what you're thinking; the Church/State has worked out so well.
Well, maybe it's time to get moving again on separating our Civic leadership from other entities, strengthening the already existing separation.

Now watch Mit Romney win the election and anoint himself Pope of the Mormons.

Garbage in - garbage out.

[khasim]

Why not simplify the search?

RETURN PERSON ID where has expired visa AND received large cash transfers from an Islamic country.

Isn't that what they're really looking for?

And that information is NOT going to be found from a grocery store.

Your method would be defeated simply by purchasing round trip tickets.

Re:Garbage in - garbage out.

[Beetle B.]

Your method would be defeated by not having an expired visa.

Re:Garbage in - garbage out.

[FatAlb3rt]

And that's why you don't work for DHS.

The search would be a bit more fuzzy than what the GP describes - he's trying to show how the data could be useful, not a verbatim of how the results are generated.

Re:Garbage in - garbage out.

[trolltalk.com]

SELECT * WHERE (color NOT 'white') AND (pol_aff NOT 'GOP') OR (pac_funding < 100000);

I always pay with cash too

[zifn4b]

Buying tin foil hats? Cash.

Middle Eastern Food

[vimh42]

So I take it that the FBI thinks that if you like Middle Eastern food, you are a potential terrorist? Gosh, I feel safer already.

Re:Don't know what makes me angrier

[Catbeller]

OR... they could look for people who had their families, along with a million other countrymen, blown up, torched, and shot for no damned reason. But that would require us to understand that we've actually made people mad at us. It's all about the EVIL, brown Muslims, not about what we do to piss them off...

i bought some hummus last week

[circletimessquare]

why do i hate america?

Re:Want baba ganouj? Use cash.

[oddaddresstrap]

When only outlaws use cash, cash will be outlawed.

Individual products

[sherriw]

I'm pretty sure your credit card company only knows the store you shopped at, not the individual items you purchased. So they must be looking for shoppers at ethnic-food stores. Unless they are mining loyalty cards from the bigger chains... which I'm sure all the terrorists are using loyalty cards *rolls eyes*. Ahhhh, America. Always amusing how hypocritical your government is. The FBI is watching you buy your "Freedom Fries". Ha.

We don't need to be protected anyway...

[acoustix]

I agree. What business does the FBI have trying to protect us? We were just kidding after 9/11 that our intelligence community failed us. There's no need to track down terrorist at all.

Nick

the crucible

[shredswithpiks]

Remember McCarthyism? Yeah, this is kinda like that (and by "kinda" I mean "exactly").

The Falafel Trail

[homer_ca]

I saw another headline that said that. It illustrates the stupidity even better because falafel isn't a Persian food.

Stores as Terrorist Cell Fronts?

[handy_vandal]

I wonder if the Feds are also interested in identifying stores which might be providing terrorist support services? Safe houses, money laundering, companionship in a lonely foreign land.

I can imagine the Feds saying "Okay, we data-mined one or two suspicious guys who shop at Sayyid's Market -- better keep Sayyid under surveillance. Wait a minute -- better flag all of Sayyid's customers as potential terrorists."

-kgj

Privacy is dead... get over it!

[parvenu74]

Or perhaps the FBI pulled a rather legal two-step: commission a company like InfoUSA to do a more broad, demographically based data-mining, and then when probable cause is established (and it WILL be established, even if only as a "clerical error") you get a FISA warrant for more direct searching and data mining through the credit card companies.

Don't you all know that privacy is dead anyway? If not, you need to listen to Steve Rambam's talk on the subject.

Re:Absurd comments

[huckamania]

"As I will outline in this blog post, I don't believe that the grocery stores gave up any customer data - the credit card companies did. But first, a disclaimer: I have no sources at all for my argument today. I have nothing to back it up other than a gut feeling. Thus, this blog post should be read as an editorial, and in no way as a solid piece of investigative journalism."

There you have it folks, the latest craze hitting the Internet. Call it the Digg phenomenon where any mole hill can be made into a mountain by endless blogs quoting each other and adding their own little fantasies, until it reaches critical mass of 'OMG teh US suxors!'

Sad really, especially when a site like slashdot succumbs.

mod parent up

[jnf]

Seriously, the blog post (not to be confused with news article) just made some shots in the dark at how they think it wouldve happened; i think it wouldve be easier to watch shipping records and you could sidestep privacy issues that way as well using open-source intel. Even the original blog post that this one quotes didn't cite sources for the falafel, it just used it as an example.

Finally, it also stated they attempted to use this data in combination with other data to see if they could come up with anything useful- this sounds totally okay by me, although I'd wonder how effective it would actually be (does a cell of 20 actually cause a significant jump in the purchases of product x?)

Either way the seething pile of bullshit that the blog-o-sphere is shows its absurdity and really brings into question peoples and organization that routinely quote as news, blogs that are totally devoid of any substantial argument based from something other than ones opinions

May have!?

[lawpoop]

Folks, don't be surprised. We were told about this back in 2002, when Admiral Poindexter announced the Total Information Awareness program. It was to be a giant database of all electronic records of all Americans -- your credit card records, grocery discount card purchases, phone calls, tax records, internet traffic, bank records, medical records, court records, everything. The logo of the program was the All-Seeing Eye on top of a pyramid, beaming its gaze over the United States. The motto was "Scientia est Poder", "Knowledge is Power". ( Are we to conclude then that total information awareness then means complete and absolute power? )
 
Because of public outcry, the project was supposedly canceled. But in reality, the various functions were just farmed out to different entities -- see the wikipedia article.
 
Now we have a guy testifying before congress that the NSA monitors all internet traffic. The former CEO of Qwest communications testified that the government asked them to monitor all phone calls months before 9/11. Wayne Madsen, former CIA agent, claims that recent theft of personal information from laptops is a black op to populate the TIA database ( he maintains a list of database thefts on the pay section of his site. ) .
 
This is just like when Nazi Germany started keeping records of the entire population so they knew where the Jews were when it came time to round them all up. They were assisted by the lasted record-keeping machinery and techniques from IBM. Now the US government is keeping track of everyone using the latest database technology.
 
Check out the 10 steps to Facism that Naomi Wolf outlined in her book, "The End of America: A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot". This is step #4, "Set up an internal surveillance system". It's disturbing to see how many other steps we can check off in present-day America.

data mining

[m2943]

You don't understand how datamining works

You obviously understand it even less. Data mining doesn't use relational queries, but it is looking for statistical anomalies and correlations. There is very little data to validate data mining for terrorists, which is why it is pointless.

Unfortunately, there is a good chance that the US government is doing what you suggest: hardcoding a bunch of bogus queries and hoping for the best.

Iranian Terror cells? Did they do 911 too?

[bodland]

Where did that come from....? Love the headline: Looking for "insert your next enemy" terror cells.

So now all who read this headline will assume there are Iranian Terror Cells in America. Actually the only known terrorists to operate on U.S. soil have been domestic anti-abortionist fundies, RW nutjobs and yup...Saudi's

I admit it

[Dasher42]

My nefarious un-American dining activities know no bounds. I love those saffron-spiced chicken kabobs. And hamburgers just don't stand up to a wrap in lavash wrap with koubideh ground beef and a dash of yogurt sauce, and cilantro, and tomatoes and veggies chargrilled to perfection. I even like the basmati rice and the fresh pomegranates and dates that are better than you get in any typical American store. I've scarfed down so many lunches like that and loved every bit.

Take that, Bush. Better gitmo me before I buy a hookah, or a Sufi poetry book.

And today, down the road from there, I'm going Chinese and buying dim sum. You're so screwed.

It's wrong when you use it incorrectly

[benhocking]

From Dirk Gently:

"Well," he said, "it's to do with the project which first made the software incarnation of the company profitable. It was called Reason, and in its own way it was sensational."

"What was it?"

"Well, it was a kind of back-to-front program. It's funny how many of the best ideas are just an old idea back-to-front. You see there have already been several programs written that help you to arrive at decisions by properly ordering and analysing all the relevant facts so that they then point naturally towards the right decision. The drawback with these is that the decision which all the properly ordered and analysed facts point to is not necessarily the one you want."

"Yeeeess ..." said Reg's voice from the kitchen.

"Well, Gordon's great insight was to design a program which allowed you to specify in advance what decision you wished it to reach, and only then to give it all the facts. The program's task, which it was able to accomplish with consummate ease, was simply to construct a plausible series of logical-sounding steps to connect the premises with the conclusion.

"And I have to say that it worked brilliantly. Gordon was able to buy himself a Porsche almost immediately despite being completely broke and a hopeless driver. Even his bank manager was unable to find fault with his reasoning. Even when Gordon wrote it off three weeks later."

First they came for the falafel ...

[wsanders]

First they came for the falafel, and I did not speak out - because, I mean, WTF?, you can buy falafel everywhere!

Then they came for the hummus and I did not speak out - because hummus makes me fart like a bull.

Next thay came for the baba ganoush, and, well, who eats that mushy goo?

Next they came for the ....

Standard

[azuroff]

All these posts, and I haven't seen anyone point out this tiny little detail, including the OP -

The brainchild of top FBI counterterrorism officials Phil Mudd and Willie T. Hulon, according to well-informed sources, the project didn't last long. It was torpedoed by the head of the FBI's criminal investigations division, Michael A. Mason, who argued that putting somebody on a terrorist list for what they ate was ridiculous -- and possibly illegal.

Much more fun to just bash the government than actually find out the facts, eh?

PUBLIC RADIO!

[qazwart]

Write down this guy's name! Write down this guy's name!

First they came after people who ate falafel, but I said nothing because I didn't eat falafel.

Then, they came after people who listened to public radio, but I said nothing because I didn't listen to public radio.

Then, they came after people who wore sandals, but I said nothing because I didn't wear sandals.

Then, they came after me, and there was nobody to speak up for me.

Check Yourself

[mpapet]

1. You are dodging the undeniable LAW ENFORCEMENT implications of harvesting personal account numbers, merchant ID's dates and times! I don't have a bone to pick with you about identity theft as the system works well at FirstData's level.

2. Since I'm probably one of the very few that actually reads privacy statements, it seems you aren't aware of the arrangement between your customers and FirstData. The scope and scale of which is unknown.

" Millions of consumers and businesses rely on FDMS, and our client partners, for safe and reliable payment services. Our relationships are established based on mutual trust. Each day, we strive to reinforce our commitment to our business customers and consumers.

In order to provide these services, FDMS must collect, maintain and use financial and other sensitive personal information."

https://www.firstdatapartners.com/citi/privacy.php

Re:Check Yourself

[Alpha830RulZ]

My friend, I have said nothing about the law enforcement implications. I merely was attempting to educate you and others about the relative role of my employer in the overall transaction flow. The actual information content in these transactions is pretty minimal, and isn't going to be as useful as transaction dumps from the merchant systems, which would actually break out what was purchased. Visa and ATM transactions don't contain line item detail, and thus cannot be used to determine whether your are purchasing garbanzo beans or grenades.

I'm quite aware of the data relationships between our customers, their customers, and my company. I do data analytics systems for those groups, and specifically predictive behavioral models for some of our customers. The input data we use comes from those customers, not our systems. Account numbers are certainly sensitive information, and we guard them with security measures that sometimes border on the absurd. However, we see a lot less of your personal data than you might imagine. I never see SSN's, for example, and only rarely phone numbers and addresses.

I'd also caution you on relying on using a privacy statement as system documentation. Privacy statements are written by legal teams, which rarely see any of what the business actually does.

Why is this a crisis?

[MooseBoy]

What makes this a crisis? Who cares that the FBI is looking at purchase records of middle-eastern foods? So, now they have a list of people who eat stereotypical middle-eastern food. All that tells them, without other information, is that we have middle-eastern food loving people in the USA! Credit card companies, any major corporation, etc in the USA collects the same kind of information for targeted advertisement, those complaining about this aren't screaming at those companies....why the FBI?
Even if they were using this information for some surveillance op, they couldn't arrest ANYONE for buying middle-eastern food....nor could they harass someone without the clear opportunity for lawsuit. This is just people who hate the current administration for whatever reason they have.

Purchased Items

[Ex-MislTech]

Well ... The article is trying to sensationalize this one.

The fact of the matter is they "may" also be looking for
ppl that are buying lots of smoke detectors and or certain
chemicals that are common under your kitchen sink.

mixed and prepared the right way, they are not something you eat.

The have heard higher chatter levels, but are having a hard time
pinning down this latest threat rise and are grasping at straws
in my opinion.

I personally hope they find them, and if credit card transactions
at grocery stores is the big sin used to do it, so be it.

Ex-MislTech

Andrew Zimmern / Anthony Bourdain

[Valiss]

I guess guys like Zimmern and Bourdain and just screwed then?

Credit card companies? -- You can bet on it

[smchris]

We are on a credit card fraud alert short list that sometimes seems like harassment. More than 3-4 internet purchases/day on any given day and it's time to give them a call to remove the holds.

Anyway, my wife buys nicotine gum from a New Zealand pharmacy because it's a 1/3 cheaper, including 4-day express mail from the other side of the earth, than it is at the local Target. Came up as an alert and I had to give Citibank a call. Two days later it arrived wrapped in lime-green "Mr. Yuk" Homeland Security tape. Only time that's happened before or since. (Gosh, and the Citibank phone drone seemed like such a _pleasant_ guy.)

You got it all wrong...

[Frosty Piss]

Next thing you know they'll be going after people that like Chinese cooking on the grounds that they're probably Communists.

No, no...

Communists are "OK" because although they may be godless, at least ther are not Muslim.

Remember, this war is about two things: GWB's version of Christian God, and oil. In that order.

You have been mis-informed

[linumax]

Christian Fundamentalists have been here since the 1600s and haven't turned this country into Afghanistan yet.
Afghanistan was not made what it is by Afghans, it was a result of British, Russian and lastly American interference in the country's business. Afghans never got a chance to build their country the way they want. You remember who created Al-Qaeda in the first place, right?

On the other hand you look at sizable immigrant Muslim communities in countries like Canada and the UK, and people are pushing for Sharia courts.
Yes, and Christian immigrants never ever tried to force their religion on other nations during the history? And by the way, right now Christian fundamentalist have taken over your government, see what's happening to dollar? to your education? to your mainstream media?

For that matter, Christianity doesn't even have an equivalent of Jihad in either codification or practice.
I don't know how the world "Jihad" came to be what it means to western world today, but I know some Arabic (being an Iranian, we had to learn the language of Islam in school) 'Jihad' mean 'Effort'. Now 'Jihad fi sabil allah' means 'effort in the way of God'. It is not explicitly about waging war though; building a school, a road, a mosque, etc. is mentioned as an effort in the way of God, helping the needy, teaching someone something useful, not eating too much and doing exercise to keep your body healthy and even brushing your teeth are all known examples of Jihad and of course war is included among them. No mention of killing innocent people though.
Apparently, there are many other concepts in Islam that are only known to Americans, such as the whole 72 virgins case which during 20+ years of living in Iran I never ever heard of or read in any religious text. I guess it's more of a western creation.

And lastly, you do have terrorists, ones that kill millions and not couple of thousands, you just call them politicians to feel good about it.

Re:You have been mis-informed

[alan_dershowitz]

Afghanistan was not made what it is by Afghans, it was a result of British, Russian and lastly American interference in the country's business. Afghans never got a chance to build their country the way they want. Actually, its state prior to the US invastion was the result of the Taliban, who believed they had created the perfect Muslim state. So now we know what one looks like: Afghanistan, 1999.

You remember who created Al-Qaeda in the first place, right? That would be Osama bin Laden, unless you are one of those people who conflate giving arms to Afhgan tribes to fight the Soviet Union invasion of Afghanistan "creating Al Qaeda."

I don't know how the world "Jihad" came to be what it means to western world today, but I know some Arabic (being an Iranian, we had to learn the language of Islam in school) 'Jihad' mean 'Effort'. Now 'Jihad fi sabil allah' means 'effort in the way of God'. It is not explicitly about waging war though; building a school, a road, a mosque, etc. is mentioned as an effort in the way of God, helping the needy, teaching someone something useful, not eating too much and doing exercise to keep your body healthy and even brushing your teeth are all known examples of Jihad and of course war is included among them. No mention of killing innocent people though. (note: if you are not Muslim, Muslim fundamentalists don't consider you "innocent.") Apparently, there are many other concepts in Islam that are only known to Americans, such as the whole 72 virgins case which during 20+ years of living in Iran I never ever heard of or read in any religious text. I guess it's more of a western creation. Congratulations! You're Muslim, but not an Islamic Fundamentalist. I never said you were a threat to anyone. Look up Memri TV some time.

Re:You have been mis-informed

[linumax]

Actually, its state prior to the US invastion was the result of the Taliban, who believed they had created the perfect Muslim state. So now we know what one looks like: Afghanistan, 1999.
You FAIL in history, I said British, Russians and then Americans, try Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan#History


Congratulations! You're Muslim, but not an Islamic Fundamentalist. I never said you were a threat to anyone. Look up Memri TV some time.
FYI, I sorta don't even believe in God, let alone being a Muslim, where did you get that I don't know.

note: if you are not Muslim, Muslim fundamentalists don't consider you "innocent.")
Kinda like Christian fundamentalists then?
and Please DO NOT ADD NOTES TO MY COMMENTS, what kind of quoting is that?!!

Re:You have been mis-informed

[alan_dershowitz]

FYI, I sorta don't even believe in God, let alone being a Muslim, where did you get that I don't know. The part where you said you learned Arabic, the language of Islam, and then progressed to describe in detail your interpretation of the Islamic meaning of Jihad based on what you were and were not taught. A fair assumption.

Kinda like Christian fundamentalists then? Nope.

Nielsen was probably doing the data mining

[mbourgon]

Depending on what they were looking for, I have an idea how they looked. Years ago, I interviewed for a job offer from a branch of A.C.Nielsen. They paid grocery stores for their register tapes and then did analysis on them for the vendors (like Frito-lay). Credit cards seem likely, but this gives you a more granular look - especially if you then tie it to credit cards.

Glad I listened to my wife

[homebrewmike]

I wanted to buy some socialist magazines at Borders. 'Cept, I was going to use a credit card. Before checking out, my wife made me put them back - said that I should only pay cash for them.

Glad I listened to her. Scary though - she's more paranoid than I am.

Re:Glad I listened to my wife

[Pinback]

Your honor, I didn't want to be tracked, and I was out of cash. That is why I shoplifted the copy of 2600.

This is it!

[Shadyman]

This is just the tip of the iceberg lettuce!

Paranoia

[DrCode]

I think you're being paranoid. The feds will just sell this information to advertisers, who can then give us mid-eastern food lovers targeted ads. It's a win-win-win situation:
1. The government makes money.
2. The advertisers save money by not trying to sell me stuff I don't use.
3. I get less junk mail, and maybe some good coupons for hummus.

Just say No to shopper cards

[fred911]

And if they refuse to provide their "special" pricing walk away. I used to have to do it frequently, now it's rare. One less profiling device.