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Scientology Given Direct Access To eBay Database
An anonymous reader writes "The Church of Scientology can delete auctions from eBay with no supervision under the VeRO program, and has used this to delete all resale of the e-meters Scientologists use. This is to stop members from buying used units from ex-members instead of buying from the official (and very expensive) source. Given Scientology's record of fraud and abuse, should eBay give them this level of trust? Will this set a precedent for other companies that want to stop the aftermarket resale of their products?"
Just go to Radio Shack and buy an ohmmeter. They're a lot cheaper.
Short answer, no.
This is favoritism. Microsoft doesn't even have this ability to stop the resale of their software.
) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
Is it, in general, legal to allow a vendor to prevent the resale of their product? I don't understand why this would be considered beneficial to society or why it wouldn't be considered monopolistic.
Of course, I'm no lawyer, but I've heard that everyone on Slashdot is.
Seems to me that given the recent Project Chanology protests against Scientology, this would be the perfect time for Anonymous to organize a massive boycott of eBay. Or worse, expand their DOS and hack attacks to include eBay, since they're cooperating with the CoS.
Posting this AC because, frankly, I don't want anybody to think I'm advocating this. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.
It could be just the media frenzy making a bigger deal of isolated incidents than the real deal is, but it seems like the group is both paranoid and vindictive. I am more worried about them trying to use this as an opportunity to supress criticism than to use it to supress second hand resales. Although why one shouldn't be able to resell one's physical property in a free contry is beyond me.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Do they just have the ability to delete sales, or do they also have access to the details of who's been bidding, selling, and buying?
Yet another reason to not use EBay or PayPal.
Who knew the NSA is the least the vast conspiracy-minded unwashed have to fear.
I wonder who at eBay is high up the kook-chain in Scientology?
If I am the manufaturer of a widgit, what do I have to do to gain access to Ebay to delete whatever auctions I want? Do I just have to write in the EULA that I have this right and then go onto Ebay and delete the auctions of competitors.
quis custodiet ipsos custodes
I think their membership is ready for an F-meter which indicates just how much they are being fucked over by their own church.
I was under the impression this was exactly the kind of reason eBay existed. "hey, i don't use this junk anymore, what'll you give me for it?" If the "church" was really given this kind of power, that's just not right.
Perhaps if they wanted to curb the resale of their devices, they should offer some sort of buy back program? They'll still turn around and sell them again and make a profit.
"Shawn Lonsdale, whose one-man crusade against Scientology made him a public enemy of the church, was found dead at his home over the weekend in an apparent suicide. He was 39."
http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/lonsdale1.html
That's pretty sad.
Though the fraud claim will probably lead to slashdot getting sued, Germany http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/12/08/scientology_facing_ban_in_germany/5643/ and several other countries have taken steps to limit scientology within their borders. While many might seek to compare this to the actions of many Islamist states, scientology's claims often involve situations that fall under racketeering laws not aspects of religious freedom.
...to stop using eBay to sell your used stuff.
It is a privilege to do everything in our power for Tom. This crap is so valuable, you should pay a lot to prove you are a sucker.
Working on new views of old physics at http://VisualPhysics.org
I will not work with ANY company that works with those evil *deleted*. I will no longer use e-bay or paypal. they want my business back, go neutral or allow all religious groups to delete auctions.
-Ours is the wisdom of Solomon, the magic of Merlyn, the fall of Icaris.
If that's "+5 Insightful" around here these day, then I want a piece of the action: 1 + 1 = 2. This profound result is equally surprising.
Hopefully the Catholics won't find out I've been reselling my indulgences too!
What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
It's pretty obvious from the early comments that not many people RTFA. (Comments like, "I wonder who at eBay is high up the kook-chain in Scientology?" and all that.) This is an established EBay program called VERO that Scientology has joined, like a bunch of other manufacturers, and (big surprise) happens to be abusing.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
If what they want is to put an end to their online existence. Giving CoS carte blanc to delete auctions is worse that putting the fox in charge of the hen house. Was Ebay, presumable savvy to how the Internet works, thinking nobody would notice this? What kind of drugs do you have to take to get that delusional?
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
A quick google for "e-meter schematic" reveals about 1200 pages. The first few that I checked have the circuit diagram for the e-meter, often directly drawn from L. Ron Hubbard's 1966 patent.
For those who can't figure out the diagram, it's basically a Wheatstone bridge with a simple (crappy) differential amplifier. It's the sort of thing anyone could build from pennies worth of components.
It's probably cheaper for Ebay to simply acquiesce to the CoS demands than to meet them in court. Even if they win, they may never see their legal fees recovered. There is less risk involved in giving in, too: they loose almost nothing if they yank the items, but could potentially lose a fortune if they don't.
The Scientologists are just that scary.
weirdest thing I ever saw: scientology advertising on slashdot.
The government is not stopping sale of e-meters, and eBay, as a private vendor, can fully decide what and what not can be sold on their site. If they choose not to allow sale of e-meters, then thats their prerogative.
The CoS is not doing anything illegal either, since they are acting now as an agent of E bay.
But I think a much better question is, what did scientology do to eBay to get them to agree to this?
Actually, Co$ could probably be sued for false advertising.
The name of the product is the "Mark VIII Super Quantum E-meter". A Wheatstone bridge, however, works on completely classical principles.
Or maybe resistance is quantized, with one quantum of resistance being equal to the extra resistance from one extra thetan hanging around?
The summary and title are a bit misleading. The CoS is removing listings using the VeRO program, not getting "direct DB access" as is claimed. Still blatant abuse of the program, so their actions are definitely NOT defensible.
Interestingly people who are targeted by this can file a DMCA counter claim and bring the issue into the court system. I hope this guy does that - maybe some of the CoS's practices can finally see the light of day.
'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
From the "E-Meter" wikipedia link in the summary: "In 1958 when Scientologists Don Breeding and Joe Wallis developed a modified, smaller battery-operated version, which they presented to Hubbard, he again used it. This was christened the Hubbard electrometer. Hubbard patented it on December 6, 1966, as a "Device for Measuring and Indicating Changes in the Resistance of a Human Body" (U.S. Patent 3,290,589 ). The patent is now expired and in the public domain. The Church of Scientology continues to make, sell, and teach its use in auditing." So if the E-Meter is in the public domain, how can they control who resells them?
Insert witty comment here
since April 1, 1976
alternatively, October 2, 1925
turn up the jukebox and tell me a lie
This is important and it is relevant to the main story, because Co$ victims are often first thought to have committed suicide. There is a direct link between the main story and this news. Co$ is a dangerous cult.
Erm, excuse me. What does God need with a starship?
-
I would equate an E-meter to that of a condom. Two things you would never want to buy used and two things used for screwing people.
Given Scientology's record of fraud and abuse, should eBay give them this level of trust?
The answer is right there. Would you want any group with Scientology's record of fraud and abuse to have access to anything important?
What do you want to bet they'd pull auctions of other Scientology-questionable stuff that isn't e meters?
Put a DVD copy of Anonymous' Scientology protests up for sale and watch what happens. What do you want to bet that it winds up deleted? Blocking e meter sales my ass - this is nothing more than some goofy cult making decisions about what you're allowed to buy. Don't let it happen!
These people are batshit fucking insane. Don't legitimize them by giving them any sort of power, control, or authority whatsoever.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
... so the CoS can get the name and address of the auction lister, then Fair Game them as they see fit.
According to eBay's VeRO ToS they will gladly hand this information over.
You must not be very familiar with the space opera that is Scientology. You see it's all about getting the thetans out. I believe they were an ancient race, that Xenu the galactic prince brought to earth 75 million years ago, set near some volcanoes near Hawaii. Then dropped H bombs in said volcanoes, and somehow their spirits latched on to us homo sapiens, and block our natural super powers, caused all our problems... Etc etc etc. I don't think god shows up in the story, but I could be wrong...
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
That's wacky. Try it yourself...
In the search box type (without quotes) "emeter". If you type it with the quotes, that's different.
What happens? You perform a search for "exeter"!
I'm sure it isn't anything sinister, though. A search for "cimputer" is changed into a search for "computer". But it sure is confusing.
What they're really trying to control is the purchase of scientology collectables by non-scientologists.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Of course, another completely misleading headline and article summary.
The VeRO program does not provide direct access to eBay's database to delete items. It is a fast-track for manufacturers to submit deletion requests for items they believe are infringing on their copyrights. Every time an auction is deleted, the VeRO program gives eBay the proper documents holding the manufacturers legally responsible for their claim of copyright infringement.
Taking a simple look at the program's description reveals that ANY auction being deleted through this program can be reinstated, automatically, by the user, within 10 days. They simply have to do the same thing the manufacturer did: claim legal responsibility for their auction, in writing.
Now, there's no doubt that I, as a private individual, would never risk challenging the very well funded battery of lawyers the Church of Scientology has to keep me in line. Even though I know they have no leg to stand on, I can't afford the legal battle. But I wouldn't cry that its eBay's fault, when eBay gave me the option to directly challenge the "manufacturer".
If you can't find a real troll, just mod down whoever you don't agree with!
E-Bay is private firm, and they're free to list or not list sales on their site for any reason whatsoever, including because the "Church" of Scientology asserts some utterly bogus intellectual property right, or because they just feel like it.
The C of S is not "preventing the resale of their product," they're just preventing the resale through E-Bay and with E-Bay's cooperation. You can still put an ad in the paper and sell it, or put up a notice in your neighborhood market, or just walk around town with a sign attached to you saying "E-Meter Cheap!"
And who gives a shit what the lawyers think? Why should the law be relevant here? This isn't a question you want the lawyers thinking about, because you can be damn sure that any solution they think up is going to cost you far more in cash and personal liberty than you would like to part with. Do you want there to be a law telling you what you can and cannot sell on your personal website? Do you want to have to get your Craigslist ad vetted by the police before it can go up? Do you want the FBI to have the right to interrogate you about whether you sold your pet cat or unused furniture to the right people, and in the right way?
Christ, let us keep the lawyers in the fridge, OK? If there's a big market for secondhand E-meters, and E-Bay foolishly foregoes it because they want to keep the Scientologists happy, then let someone start up a private website devoted to reselling E-Meters, and he will make scads of money, more than enough to dare the "Church" to sue him, and get their clueless clock cleaned and get hit for beaucoup lawyer fees on top of it.
But what I suspect is that ex-Scientologists who want to recoup some of the financial loss associated with their recent vacation from rationality are a very small group, and while it kinda sucks that when there's very few of you and a whole lot of someone else (in this case, non-ex-Scientologists, or pre-ex-Scientologists), you have to tread carefully, that's just life in a wide-open democracy. It's not like an intelligent and determined person can't work around this problem fairly easily. I'm sure if I had an E-Meter to sell, I could do it easily enough without E-Bay or the Church getting a clue. Probably my 16-year-old could, too.
And you must not be very familiar with the space opera that is Star Trek, from which the GP was quoting quite humorously.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Q: What's the difference between Microsoft and the Church of Scientology?
A: One is a wealthy and powerful criminal enterprise bent on world domination, while the other, ah, ummm.... Microsoft has better health benefits.
It's sad, but I can't stop myself from replying to this obvious nerd bait...... the quote is from Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, not "The Undiscovered Country"
Jesus Liked Little Boys?
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
I dunno...my girlfriend has religious paraphenalia that needs electricity. I know because when I am in another room, I can hear a buzzing sound in the bedroom and her chanting, "oh, god. oh, god! ohhhhh, gooood!"
Argh!
You are correct. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098382/quotes
I give myself one geek demerit for picking the wrong movie.
Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
You shouldn't talk of things about which you are ignorant.
There almost certainly was a historical Buddha. There is far more evidence for this, from independent sources, than for (e.g.) Socrates.
And FYI, the Buddha never said he was anything but a normal man. In fact, he stated again and again that he was just that -- not some kind of a God or superbeing.
eBay has long since decided to deputize any company that feels like signing papers with complete and unfettered access to eBay. Anyone that signs a "legally binding document" can then gain power to delete any auction from eBay for whatever reason they feel like. If it's because of counterfeit or provably stolen product, that's fine, but eBay's history of repudiating first sale has really gotten tiring.
Try reselling Weight Watchers program materials. They get deleted on a regular basis because Weight Watchers doesn't like it if you resell them. There's no legal basis for this, and if you push the issue with eBay, the response you get is "Well, they said they don't want you selling them, so too bad." They tell you to "take it up with Weight Watchers" who says "We say you can't sell them, and that's that."
VeRO is a bullshit program that lets eBay wash their hands of legitimate issues on the site and that gives companies ridiculously too much power. Do you think that if I set up a stand at a flea market reselling legally acquired materials, that the flea market owners would stand for the publisher of those materials walking around with a rubber hose and yanking the items away if I tried to sell them?
This isn't news, hopefully this just pushes VeRO into the public eye and convinces eBay to get rid of it, or to force "rights owners" (I wasn't aware that a "right to prevent resale" existed) to actually file individual complaints based on some sort of legal theory to delist an item, not just "We don't want these resold." Scn is abusing it like they abuse everything else, but this system seems to be made specifically to facilitate abuse.
... to boldly correct what no man had corrected before ... :-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
...you could not come close to it's functionality with that original patent's design... Uhm... what functionality is that, exactly? It seems it has one function: to separate fools from their money in the service of richer fools. In that way, it seems to work identically to the 1960's version, only with a cooler name.And: it sounds like it was named by an eight-year-old.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Fraud and abuse? Well, no Scientology discussion can be complete without a link to Bare Faced Messiah, the unauthorised biography of L. Ron Hubbard. It is very interesting stuff. The man lived recently enough that there are plenty of verifiable historical facts about him, and he was certainly an extraordinary guy.
Any Scientologists reading this topic have no doubt already heard about Bare Faced Messiah and the lies contained within it, invented (of course) by the Church's enemies in order to discredit Hubbard and his ideas. To you I say: what if your perception of reality is wrong? What if you have been lied to, that a sort of Matrix has been built around you by your friends and colleagues at the Church? Wouldn't you at least like to see what other people's reality looks like? No need to take any pills, the truth might be a click away...
>north
You're an immobile computer, remember?
I hereby smite you.
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
And therein lies the true wonder... not only did he quote from Star Trek, and not only did he quote Shatner during that intermediate period when he was not cool, but he quoted from ST V, which most consider the worst one ever made.
That's no nerd, that's an übernerd. We are not worthy.
Sam! If you will let me be,
I will try them.
You will see.
Your brain is not a computer.
Mahayana, to be specific....
OM-MA-NI-PAD-ME-HUM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantra
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
A sect? I consider them organized crime.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Think about the South Park episode that went through the entire theology of the CoS, with a big blinking sign that read "This is what Scientologists actually believe" over the animation. That was even more effective than the "Dum Dum Dum Dum Dum" song refrain about the Mormons, all the more so since there was no attempt at all at the end of the episode to paint actual CoS members as decent human beings, unlike the Mormon episode.
Laugh at them.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
In that case, never mind. It's much more likely that you executed a denial of service attack on your *own* machine than on eBay. I mean, you do know that Firefox has an upper limit on how many connections it will actually open at the same time, right? (Go to about:config and filter for "connect.") All other connections are just placed in a queue until Firefox has an available slot. The slowdown was entirely on your own machine and LAN.
I mean, honestly... Did you really think that you were being some sort of 1337 super-hax0r by using *one* machine on a single home or school connection to bog down one of the largest e-commerce sites on the planet?
(Oh, also, your proposed Million Loser March is more likely to DoS your proxy service than eBay itself.) The law's tried it before anyways. I run rings around them every time, simpyly because most judges aren't smart enough to know what they're trying to charge me for. Sure thing, kid. Keep saying things like that in a public forum. We're all in awe of your brilliance and eagerly await to see the way in which your intellect would dazzle the courtroom.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
[This comment removed due to a copyright claim by Church of Scientology International]
The problem with "WWCBND?" is that it's just not a terribly useful guiding philosophy. For instance, imagine you're in a situation where you're having trouble getting along with your coworkers, and so you ask yourself, "WWCBND?" The answer is that CowboyNeal would sit on a couch, eat Pringles, and play video games. So, as you can see, "WWCBND?" has two major problems:
First, the solution is *always* to sit on a couch, eat Pringles, and play video games because that's all we know about CowboyNeal. "WWCBND?" dictates that you sit on a couch, eat Pringles, and play video games in any situation, whether it's marital problems, dealing with the poor, or feeling frustrated that you dropped your grilled cheese sandwich: just sit on a couch, eat some Pringles, and play video games. It's just not very flexible as a philosophy.
The second issue with the "WWCBND?" philosophy is more practical. CowboyNeal is a fat slob. As a fat slob, he already has the resources to follow through with this plan, in particular, he has a couch, lots of Pringles, and plenty of video games to play. Unless you have access to similar resources, "WWCBND?" is just not practical to apply to your everyday life. Although I admit, when I think of how to deal with the fact that I too am a fat slob, and then ask "WWCBND?", I have to admit that the philosophy does have some appeal.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
no, it's a sect, a split from the Church of "Astounding Stories".
Dear eBay,
Get some balls.
Sincerely,
Me
Padme yum? I can't disagree.
At the bottom of the
This is the same thing that eBay has been doing since they killed my auctions in 1998.
/.
You see, Microsoft wanted to engage in illegal price fixing, and killed my auctions reselling copies of Microsoft software that I had won as door prizes.
I had never agreed to a license agreement, so I was not bound by it, but eBay still allowed Microsoft to kill my auctions.
It was only after I won my small-claims lawsuit against eBay for breech of contract, and another small claims court suit against Microsoft for slander that I got another eBay account. That's why my account says "since 1999."
Anyway, great job hopping on this story 9 years later,
Andy
What is your problem? The Fishman Affidavit is a court document, that's not a good enough cite for you that L. Ron Hubbard actually said that Jesus likes little boys? Or did you not bother to read (or not comprehend) the website and assumed the poster was bashing your favorite fairy tale?
Let me be perfectly clear then: Scientology makes the claim, in their official religious literature, that Jesus was a homosexual pedophile. That is backed up by court records.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Correct.
And things like rising from an untimely death after being nailed to a cross (or tree) three days after dying (and then celebrating), having a last supper, being born of a virgin, being the son of a god, etc... were all prevalent beliefs of pagan mythology at the time of and well before Jesus. A guy who had these "myths" thrown upon his name decades after he was dead in order to start a religion.
People forget that the history of most religions are far more "earth-bound" than they like to realize...
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
An E-Meter is no match for the "Church of Jobs" iMeter!
You know... sitting on a couch, eating Pringles, and playing video games has never caused wars or anything. The world would be a better place if people followed CowboyNeal's fine example.
Circumcision is child abuse.
Circumcision is child abuse.
A lawyer working for the Church of Scientology stood on the steps of a courthouse in fancy lawyer gowns and said they were going to commence a criminal contempt proceeding against a Crown (State) attorney. This violated the ethical guidelines of the lawyer, threatened an officer of the State, and impugned the credibility of that officer and of the judicial system itself.
The attorney and CoS were fined $300,000 each, and CoS $500,000 in aggravated damages and $800,000 in punitive damages.
I would presume this has been enforced. The CoS is still operating just down the street from where I work.
~Jarik
If I want to know about Christianity, I can buy a Bible. I could even get free bibles if I know where to look. I could find a million different people preaching about the religion. I could find people who would be head over heals to go in depth about their beliefs for absolutley no money. I could sell a Bible on eBay and the pope isn't going to delete it. On the other hand, Scientology offers nothing except a promise of enlightment for a large sum of money. They don't follow through and have so much against them legally and morally that it is sophomoric to compare them to a real religion. Say what you want about religion, but a true religion is open (like most major religions) and a cult is closed (like Scientology). Taking jabs at mainstream religion is childish and ignores the real issues. And finally, Christianity's largest atrocities occured centuries ago, the stuff Scientology has done is completely out of place for the 20th and 21st century. I'm not trying to defend Christianity out of zealotry (I do not practice Christianity or Judaism, the two religions of my parents, although I do believe in God), I'm defending it because in this day and age it is a respectful religion to follow and one that isn't based around money, crime and tax breaks. Sure, one may not agree with some views but those views are open book. Scientology won't tell you their views because they are idiotic. All the stuff we know about Xenu is from leaks. Scientology never volunteered that information, and for a good reason. Until you are brainwashed, it sounds like pure BS.
I also find it interesting how at least 90% (and I'm being generous here) of the stuff I have read online or in the media about Scientology doesn't even resemble what Scientology really is, and I have been a member for about 17 years now.
I am sorry for you my friend. I would suggest you see the story of people who where in Scientology for more than 20 years and were even "OT7" (whatever that means). Of course, I do not know if your church allows you to see such videos. (I would not count on that.. In fact i am surprised that your CoS nanny filter allows you to get into slashdot.
Do not get me wrong, I have nothing about the Scientology religion, it is the "church" the one I think is bad. Similarly to how the Catholic church was bad some years ago (Spanish Incquisition). I know there are groups of people that follow the same beliefs as Scientologists, but they cannot call themselves Scientologists because they would get sued (WTF?).
And, lastly, just for curiosity, do you *really* believe in Xenu and all those things described in OT3 ?
Hope you the best! And I really hope you remember my post in some 10 years when you get out of Scientology and look back at all the years you wasted.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'