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Amputee Sprinter Wins Olympic Appeal to Compete

Dr. Eggman writes "Oscar Pistorius, a 21-year-old South African double-amputee sprinter, has won his appeal filed with the Court of Arbitration for Sport. This overturns a ban imposed by the International Association of Athletics Federations, and allows Mr. Pistorius the chance to compete against other able-bodied athletes for a chance at a place on the South African team for the Beijing Olympics. He currently holds the 400-meter Paralympic world sprinting record, but must improve on his time by 1.01 seconds to meet the Olympic qualification standard. However, even if Pistorius fails to get the qualifying time, South African selectors could add Oscar to the Olympic 1,600-meter relay squad."

366 comments

  1. How unfair... by HetMes · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...to all athletes that have to drag their lower legs at each step, and not having the benefit of springlike limbs.

    1. Re:How unfair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Call me sentimental, but I tend to think that the inspirational value -- to everyone, not just aspiring legless athletes -- of letting this fellow compete trumps any concerns over fairness.

      In any case, it matters not at all to me and I'm content to let the Olympic bureaucrats make whatever decision they see fit.

    2. Re:How unfair... by vertigoCiel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If they think he has an unfair advantage, why don't they get their legs amputated, too?

    3. Re:How unfair... by theantipop · · Score: 1, Insightful

      ...to all athletes that have to drag their lower legs at each step, and not having the benefit of springlike limbs. What, you don't have an ankle?
    4. Re:How unfair... by Hankapobe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If they think he has an unfair advantage, why don't they get their legs amputated, too?

      If this guy takes home a gold and considering how competitive some folks are, it wouldn't surprise me if elite athletes start getting into "accidents" and having these put on them.

    5. Re:How unfair... by NoobixCube · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How is that unfair? He holds the Paralympic world record for the 400m, and he STILL has to improve on that by 1.01 seconds to meet qualification standard. I'm by no means an athlete, but I know that professional sprinters and swimmers find it so hard to improve on their own personal bests. Each second is a hardly won battle in it's self. I think he has a hard challenge ahead of him to be selected, and will still probably on place in an average middle position at the Olympics.

      --
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    6. Re:How unfair... by erroneus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are most correct. There are people who would give up their legs to become faster runners. This is setting up a very bad precedent.

      If doping is bad, this is bad too. If he could somehow run without his devices or could substitute a non-springy prosthesis, then it would be okay again. But as it stands, there will be those who are obsessive enough to follow in his prosthetic footsteps.

    7. Re:How unfair... by FleaPlus · · Score: 5, Informative

      If they think he has an unfair advantage, why don't they get their legs amputated, too?

      It's not too much of a stretch. Apparently in baseball there's something called Tommy John surgery, where a ligament in the elbow is replaced by a (stronger) ligament from the wrist. It was originally intended to deal with injuries, although after pitchers found that their performance was better than it was before the injury some healthy players have become interested in getting the surgery performed.

    8. Re:How unfair... by vux984 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they think he has an unfair advantage, why don't they get their legs amputated, too?

      What if they do? What if it that becomes what it takes to win? The olympics is already a freakshow... but it could descend much much further... we could attach flipper feet to swimmers, and implant gills designed to breath in chlorinated pools...

      At what point do we draw the line?

      And if we don't draw a line and let the olympics devolve into a league for pharma-cyborg-supermen, can we start up a new 'new olympics' for natural human beings?? Because I'd find that more interesting.

    9. Re:How unfair... by element-o.p. · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If this guy takes home a gold...it wouldn't surprise me if elite athletes start getting into "accidents" and having these put on them.
      I don't think it is likely to become an issue. From the summary: "He ... must improve on his time by 1.01 seconds to meet the Olympic qualification standard."

      So if I understand correctly, he has to go 1.01 seconds faster than the best he has already done to meet the minimum standard that other Olympic sprinters need to meet in order to race at the Olympics.

      Not to knock him -- it's very cool to overcome a disability and compete at the Olympics -- but it doesn't sound like he will be a top contender in the races; it sounds more like he just wants to participate in the Olympic races. In any case, I wish him the best!
      --
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    10. Re:How unfair... by hosecoat · · Score: 1

      If they think steroids create an unfair advantage, why don't they take steroids, too?

    11. Re:How unfair... by yesteraeon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Two points:
      1)I don't think we can give too much credence to what we think stupid/crazy people will do in response to a certain policy. Personally, I'd be fine if amputees have a shot at competing in the Olympics and the cost is a few whack jobs cutting off their legs. I'd rather not see anyone lose their legs. But better that than deny these tremendous athletes the chance to compete in the world's most prestigious sporting event (despite having the technology to allow them to do it!).
      2)If losing your legs and having prostheses put in is such an advantage how come this guy is over a second slower than the standard to even qualify for the Olympics?

    12. Re:How unfair... by EL_mal0 · · Score: 0

      2)If losing your legs and having prostheses put in is such an advantage how come this guy is over a second slower than the standard to even qualify for the Olympics?

      Because he isn't a good enough athelete to qualify for the Olympics. If he didn't have the mechanical advantage of artificial legs, he probably would be much more than a second too slow.

    13. Re:How unfair... by nick_davison · · Score: 1

      You'll notice, no one with an amputation at the ankle has managed to compete on a close to competetive level.

      Which is a pretty clear indicator the kinetic energy store of a giant freaking spring for a leg adds something.

    14. Re:How unfair... by SL+Baur · · Score: 1
    15. Re:How unfair... by icegreentea · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You have to flex your ankle to use them as springs. He doesn't. If that doesn't convince you, consider this. When you squat up and down, your legs essentially work like springs. Squat up and down. You'll get tired around 20-30 reps. Now imagine an actual spring. It does not get tired.

    16. Re:How unfair... by neoform · · Score: 1

      Just because he might not set a new record, doesn't mean there wont be others like him who are faster and given an advantage by their prosthetic legs. The Olympics are supposed to be about athletes competing on a fair playing field. He should be competing in an entirely different category against others with comparable abilities.

      --
      MABASPLOOM!
    17. Re:How unfair... by Gman14msu · · Score: 1

      Just to emphasize the fact that players have only become interested. No one goes and gets Tommy John surgery without needing it. Many people claim that it makes the arm stronger in the long run. But it's only done after serious elbow injury. Not to mention the rehab time for the injury is 12-18 months. That's a lot of baseball to miss for optional surgery!

    18. Re:How unfair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is the precedent it sets. Perhaps this guy isn't a near olypmic quality sprinter, but his artificial leg gives him a boost to the point where he's even close. If so... on what grounds do you refuse the guy who was already going to break the record and then gets one of these and uses it to go even *faster?*

      Perhaps this prosthetic doesn't give the guy an advantage... but mechanically it's pretty clear there *are* such prosthetics, and I rather suspect this is one.

      I mean... imagine someone has a medical condition that prevents them from growing significant muscles. Now imagine that this person could overcome this physical disability by using steroids. Should he be allowed to compete in olympic weight lifting competitions where steroids are banned?

      It's pretty clear that a normal athlete with a spring attached to their foot wouldn't be allowed... We have the special olypmics for a reason. I'm sure this guy can win there, and wish him luck in that... but not in the normal olympics.

    19. Re:How unfair... by davester666 · · Score: 1

      This just means he needs the artificial limbs to have bigger springs.

      I can see it now. To start the race, the guy is lying down 3/4 of the way down the track, where he begins to push himself backwards with his hands until he gets to the start line, compressing the springs against the starting blocks. The starting gun fires, he releases the springs and he is flung to the finish line.

      Straight out of the Road Runner cartoons...

      Ironically, the event takes longer to complete, because even though the race is completed in 5 seconds, it takes 10 minutes for everyone to get set in the starting blocks.

      --
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    20. Re:How unfair... by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      Are you not aware that they are doped up to the ears?

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    21. Re:How unfair... by WK2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Call me sentimental, but I tend to think that the inspirational value -- to everyone, not just aspiring legless athletes -- of letting this fellow compete trumps any concerns over fairness.

      Yeah, that's usually how short-term benefits over long-term consequences work. They are sentimental, feel good, and you don't really see how bad it is for a long time. The worst part is that there aren't much feel good short-term benefits. This is guy is good, but according to what I've read, including TFS, isn't quite good enough for the Olympics. So in just a years time, the only thing we will be left with is the precedent that allows cyborgs in the Olympics.

      --
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    22. Re:How unfair... by severoon · · Score: 1

      I agree with you, and I'm sure you agree with my modified version of your statement as well: If they think he has an unfair advantage, why don't they [take a horse feedbag full of crystal meth before each race], too?

      --
      but have you considered the following argument: shut up.
    23. Re:How unfair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if they will let me compete in my electric wheelchair?

    24. Re:How unfair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think he has a hard challenge ahead of him to be selected, and will still probably on place in an average middle position at the Olympics. First of all, whether he comes close to winning is irrelevant to whether he has an unfair advantage. If I wore brass knuckles to an olympic boxing match, I'd lose awfully and have an unfair advantage.

      Furthermore, placing in the average middle position at the Olympics is a sign that you are at the top of your sport.
    25. Re:How unfair... by akintayo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You may wish to include Lasik eye surgery as another medical operation that athletes use to give them an unfair advantage.

      --
      Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
    26. Re:How unfair... by slutsker · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Did you actually read the article? It said that the legs did not give him a mechanical advantage:

      Pistorius' lawyers countered with independent tests conducted by a team led by MIT professor Hugh M. Herr that claimed to show he doesn't gain any advantage over able-bodied runners.

      CAS said the IAAF failed to prove that Pistorius' running blades give him an advantage.

      "The panel was not persuaded that there was sufficient evidence of any metabolic advantage in favor of a double-amputee using the Cheetah Flex-Foot," CAS said. "Furthermore, the CAS panel has considered that the IAAF did not prove that the biomechanical effects of using this particular prosthetic device gives Oscar Pistorius an advantage over other athletes not using the device."


      Let's face it - if someone is qualified to compete in other respects, but needs accommodations that provide no advantage, he should be allowed to compete. This is the same standard that people have used to try and prevent those with learning disabilities from getting extra time or other accommodations.
    27. Re:How unfair... by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a movie...

    28. Re:How unfair... by Spokehedz · · Score: 1

      Which is why I think there should be the Cyborg Olympics... Take care of the problem entirely.

      Let fully-human people play against fully-human players.

      Let Cyborgs play against Cyborgs.

      And let fully autonomous robots play against fully autonomous robots.

    29. Re:How unfair... by booyabazooka · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My dreams of being an Olympic runner were crushed because of a condition that I have: I can't run very fast.

      I could probably overcome this challenge with sufficient technology, if they'd only let me. But it wouldn't be an inspirational story.

    30. Re:How unfair... by Nulifier · · Score: 1

      The problem is not you (I am assuming you are not a professional boxer) competing with an unfair advantage. But what would happen if we gave someone with experience and training in boxing those same brass knuckles, that person would have an unfair advantage and win. So if we take a pretty good sprinter and we give him an advantage he will do better, as long as he knows how to do what needs to be done.

    31. Re:How unfair... by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

      ...to all athletes that have to drag their lower legs at each step, and not having the benefit of springlike limbs. I thought the same thing, and that it will be very hard to draw a line between "replacement" and "enhancement" limbs, but then I remembered that the Olympics are absolutely retarded and without value. If there's some one time inspiration to be drawn here, it's worth it.
      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    32. Re:How unfair... by psychodelicacy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is the kind of argument which makes the question difficult to debate. I sincerely doubt anyone is saying that this guy's having his legs amputated was a good thing, or a deliberate cheat, or anything of the sort. What they are saying is that, as an unintended consequence of his physical impairment, he has found himself in the situation of having mechanical aids which put him outside the scope of the Olympics' competition specifications and potentially give him an advantage which he could not have gained from his natural physique and training alone.

      By translating that into "they say that having your legs amputated is an advantage, the insensitive clods", you skew the argument in the direction of disability rights, which is really not what it's about at all.

      --
      A closed mouth gathers no foot.
    33. Re:How unfair... by sjbe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Did you actually read the article? It said that the legs did not give him a mechanical advantage: But the ARE performance enhancing. How is that ANY different than someone taking performance enhancing drugs? It isn't. This ruling misses the point. While he's not cheating he's not competing under the same rules as everyone else either. The prosthetics allow him to do things his body cannot naturally do and none of his competitors will have a similar chance to (legally) enhance their performance the same way.

      I wasn't born with legs fast enough to run 400 meters in 45 seconds either even with feet. Yes it sucks to not have two feet but that doesn't mean anyone should get an advantage in getting to the Olympics. Not me and not anyone else.
    34. Re:How unfair... by Culture20 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's pretty clear that a normal athlete with a spring attached to their foot wouldn't be allowed... We have the special olypmics for a reason. I'm sure this guy can win there, and wish him luck in that... but not in the normal olympics. I can't wait until the special olympics are outperforming regular olympics, kind of like a super-hero olympics made up of bionic people.
    35. Re:How unfair... by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      See, that's the thing, though... Can we ever be 100% certain that there is no bio-mechanical advantage? I can't think of an absolute way of determining that - it's very likely that we're simply hearing (albeit an expert's) opinion. Maybe someone can think of a way of determining this that I can't - the article was sketchy on details. Essentially, one expert says yes, one says no, and the committee picked which one they wanted to listen to.

      I think it's important to acknowledge the difference between accommodations in, say, the workplace or public facilities, versus competing in the Olympics. As it turns out, *most* people in the world are simply not physically qualified to participate in those events - they are by nature elite events. It seems a bit of a stretch to complain about disqualification because of a physical disability when physical competition is the entire the focus of the games. It seems a little like complaining that a person with an average IQ is being discriminated against when attempting to acquire his Ph.D. in neurosurgery. It would be a sad day when we pretend that everyone can compete equally at everything.

      Still, despite my misgivings, I don't think I'll begrudge this guy's chance to compete (not like I have a say in it anyhow). Potentially a tricky precedence and all, but it's still hard not to root for the guy.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    36. Re:How unfair... by jfengel · · Score: 1

      And 1.01 seconds is a VERY long time in the 400 meters. In a race at this level, it's the difference between first and last place.

    37. Re:How unfair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I competed in the state championship in this distance (and that would narrow down who I am too much for me, so AC), I can tell you without one doubt this guy has an advantage. Not only the reason you talk about, but more:

      This guy has never had to worry about his shoes coming off, rubbing him wrong, etc. Granted he may have issues that I didn't, but every difference like this is just another reason he isn't like a normal human and that translates to _not_equal_

      Not only that, but I went through HELL running with shin splints. I had a career ending injury to my lower leg. My calfs were usually the sorest part of my body after hard workouts. My heart had to provide blood to all that extra body mass.

      Another difference is easy to see when you find out he runs slower on the curves. While that is somewhat true for others, not as dramatic as this guy. That is the time when you lean and use the muscles in your lower legs to help you make the curve. This is a disadvantage to him, but he easily makes up for it in the straight away.

      When the next guy comes along and he actually has the physical ability without the cheetahs, he will be breaking all the records. Then everyone will realize that this is a bad idea.

    38. Re:How unfair... by Uncle+Focker · · Score: 1

      If they think steroids create an unfair advantage, why don't they take steroids, too? So cute and naive. You think they haven't been taking steroids for years?
    39. Re:How unfair... by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Each second is a hardly won battle in it's self.

      Honestly, I'm having trouble understanding this. Did you mean "Each second is a hard-won battle in itself."?

    40. Re:How unfair... by vikstar · · Score: 1

      What for? Just get Chell shoes.

      --
      The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim.
    41. Re:How unfair... by Cathoderoytube · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If any athlete decides to chop their legs off to be able to use faster prosthetic legs I would invite them to do a bit of reading on phantom limb beforehand. From my understanding it's one of the more unpleasant things a human being can go through.

      --
      I have nothing compelling to say
    42. Re:How unfair... by FleaPlus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just to emphasize the fact that players have only become interested. No one goes and gets Tommy John surgery without needing it.

      I'm not sure how reliable the info is, but the examples in this NY Times article seem to disagree:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/20/sports/baseball/20surgery.html

    43. Re:How unfair... by Derek+Loev · · Score: 1

      1.01 seconds is a ridiculously long time when you are competing at this level in this event. We won't have to worry about him being in the Olympics and I imagine if his time was competitive then he wouldn't have won the appeal.

    44. Re:How unfair... by quantaman · · Score: 1

      If they think he has an unfair advantage, why don't they get their legs amputated, too? Because the idea of sport is to reach the pinnacle of fitness, not to contort the body into broken machine optimized for a single task while seriously jeopardizing other facets of health. If it becomes possible to win via contorting the body through drugs, or in this case, amputations, it's the responsibility of the governing body to prevent those actions.
      --
      I stole this Sig
    45. Re:How unfair... by quantaman · · Score: 2, Funny

      Call me sentimental, but I tend to think that the inspirational value -- to everyone, not just aspiring legless athletes -- of letting this fellow compete trumps any concerns over fairness.

      In any case, it matters not at all to me and I'm content to let the Olympic bureaucrats make whatever decision they see fit. Inspirational that one guy in the present day can overcome his disability and (almost) compete at the highest level of the world.

      Not so inspiration in 10 years when some incredibly fit and dedicated runners are staring down the track at some much less fit amputees bounding down the track like rabbits.
      --
      I stole this Sig
    46. Re:How unfair... by krazytekn0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Think about it this way... You cut off your leg that means you have less body mass to support, meaning you don't have to eat as much or have as big of an impact on the planet. Cutting off your legs is not only a good way to get ahead in athletics but it's GREEN too!!!

      --
      Not all life is cyber. Extra Income
    47. Re:How unfair... by Viceroy+Potatohead · · Score: 1

      the inspirational value -- to everyone, not just aspiring legless athletes -- of letting this fellow compete trumps any concerns over fairness. Trumps concerns over fairness??????!?!?!?!1@1! How can you have a meaningful competition without fairness? Personally, I find it far more inspirational watching the beauty, grace, and power of a fully unencumbered/unenhanced human at absolute peak possible condition than any triumph of technology or sentimentalism for those who are capable of less/more than that. I find it bizarre: The idea of people enhanced technologically competing on an even playing field with the poor bastards who have dedicated their lives to fulfilling their raw human potential; somehow, that's supposed to be inspirational?
    48. Re:How unfair... by fat+bastard+of+doom · · Score: 1

      Your comment brings up a valid point, though you made it in humor. Chances are that the legs that he is using are lighter weight than that of normal legs. This would make him significantly lighter than someone else of the same height and roughly equivalent body mass. Biomechanics aside, this would give an advantage.

    49. Re:How unfair... by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      How is this a troll? It's a perfectly reasonable opinion. F'ing mods.

    50. Re:How unfair... by wooferhound · · Score: 1

      See, that's the thing, though... Can we ever be 100% certain that there is no bio-mechanical advantage? I can't think of an absolute way of determining that Why don't they let all the runners wear the springs on their feet?
      then it would be fair . . .
      --
      We are Dead Stars looking back Up at the Sky
    51. Re:How unfair... by Repossessed · · Score: 1

      He is the worlds fastest double amputee.

      He is not fast enough to meet the Olympic qualifying times.

      There may be some sort of advantage over 'normal' legs, but nobody who meets those times is normal. Until they start making unpowered prosthetics that are strong enough to produce somebody who can compete with people who do have legs, the idea of an unfair advantage is kindof silly.

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    52. Re:How unfair... by timeOday · · Score: 1

      If they think he has an unfair advantage, why don't they get their legs amputated, too?
      Why not just ride a bicycle against the other runners instead? What if I call them "circle legs"? I don't think I should be disqualified from winning a gold medal in running just because my body can't run fast enough.
    53. Re:How unfair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...to all athletes that have to drag their lower legs at each step, and not having the benefit of springlike limbs. Calf muscles, being real muscles, can return more energy (over 200%) than put into them when acting like a spring, as they do in sprinting. The best carbon fiber synthetic limbs will never return more than 99.9% of the input energy (unless otherwise powered). The real "benefit" is an longer than normal lower leg length, which also plays a large role in a sprinter's baseline ability.
    54. Re:How unfair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If losing your legs and having prostheses put in is such an advantage how come this guy is over a second slower than the standard to even qualify for the Olympics? It's been a long time since white boys were able to qualify without the benefit of certain medical advantages.
    55. Re:How unfair... by servognome · · Score: 1

      1)I don't think we can give too much credence to what we think stupid/crazy people will do in response to a certain policy. Personally, I'd be fine if amputees have a shot at competing in the Olympics and the cost is a few whack jobs cutting off their legs. I'd rather not see anyone lose their legs. But better that than deny these tremendous athletes the chance to compete in the world's most prestigious sporting event (despite having the technology to allow them to do it!).
      It's not exactly stupid/crazy people, it's people who have a goal of glory and are willing to do whatever to achieve it. The level of devotion to compete at a world class level in anything in itself can be considered "crazy," not to mention in sports the grind on the human body makes surgeries very likely. Beyond just the individual choices, what happens when less than open governments decree their athlete needs to have an amputation?

      2)If losing your legs and having prostheses put in is such an advantage how come this guy is over a second slower than the standard to even qualify for the Olympics?
      I don't think anybody thinks it gives an absolute advantage, but they are worried that technology gives a relative advantage over your normal baseline. Like golf clubs, tennis rackets, or any other high performance equipment - in the hands of an amateur it doesn't make much difference, but at the world class level a tiny edge means the difference between winning and losing, whether it's running 0.1 seconds faster or a 5km/h faster serve
      --
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    56. Re:How unfair... by boarsai · · Score: 1

      Makes me wonder if aerodynamics and weight were taken into consideration? I'd imagine they'd have to be but heck just looking at those legs... well they're hardly big chunky things now are they.

    57. Re:How unfair... by camperdave · · Score: 1

      I know that professional sprinters and swimmers find it so hard to improve on their own personal bests.

      Um... He has beat his personal best 26 times in competition. With a little bit of tuning, he could be doing this. It's not about his personal performance, it's about the performance of the man/machine fusion, and it is far too easy to just tweak the machine without improving the man. There is no way he should be allowed to compete, unless it is without his "Cheetah-feet".

      --
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    58. Re:How unfair... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      And if you're not sure about becoming Soylent Green, you can can try it by installments and see how it goes!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    59. Re:How unfair... by vertigoCiel · · Score: 1

      A better way to phrase my post would have been "If they think he has an unfair advantage, why aren't they getting their legs amputated?"

      I don't think anyone seriously thinks he has an advantage - he's a full second slower than the qualifying time. This is one case where a disabled athlete, who would normally only be able to compete in the special Olympics, is close to or at Olympic level. He didn't get his legs amputated - he was born without fibulas - it was something completely beyond his control. He's risen to a world-class level in spite of this. Why not let him compete?

    60. Re:How unfair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Right, you have no idea about the physics and biology involved.

      What do you think are the muscles and sinues of your calves for? They are far from being dead weigth but are much more effective than any spring protheses in existance.

      Please, people, tell me how this post could get modded insightfull?

    61. Re:How unfair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, judge the inspirational value of someone chopping his legs off and replacing them with prosthetics in order to win. This is a Bad Ideea(tm).

    62. Re:How unfair... by StarfishOne · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Pistorius' lawyers countered with independent tests conducted by a team led by MIT professor Hugh M. Herr that claimed to show he doesn't gain any advantage over able-bodied runners."


      I recalled reading an article about this earlier and after some searching I found it again:

      And yes, it's about the same runner.

      From this article:
      http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/17/prosthetic-limbed-runner-disqualified-from-olympics/

      "According to the IAAF report, the "mechanical advantage of the blade in relation to the healthy ankle joint of an able bodied athlete is higher than 30-percent." Additionally, Pistorius uses 25-percent less energy than average runners due to the artificial limbs, therefore giving him an unfair advantage on the track... or so they say"

      Now I am wondering about why the MIT is saying that there's no difference. No difference vs 25-30% difference is ehm, a huge difference...
    63. Re:How unfair... by 1.000.000 · · Score: 1

      2) He is one guy competing again many many 1000's of normal athletes on that distance. The chance that he would still be the best runner with artificial legs, if everyone had them, is very small. Therefor that argument doesn't prove much.

      Besides its clear that the legs works differently then human legs. He starts slow and then accelerates to run faster then the others after about 200m. That alone points to the fact that his legs are very different in performance to normal legs.

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      This is a viral signature. You are now infected!
    64. Re:How unfair... by JonathanBoyd · · Score: 1

      Why not let him compete? Because the competition is about human body against human body. If he wants to compete without his prosthetics, that's fine, but with them, he's running under different conditions toe everyone else. What happens in a few years time where prosthetics give an undisputed advantage to runners? Where do you draw the line? You can't have one set of rules for one person and another set for someone else; you can't let sentimentality trump fairness, otherwise the competition is devalued to the point of meaninglessness. And for all the people talking about how inspirational this is, surely his actions are devaluing the Paralympics? I would find it a lot more inspiring if times in the Paralympics started getting faster than Olympic records.

    65. Re:How unfair... by smartaleckkill · · Score: 1

      The concept of an unfair advantage is deeply problematic. Why don't we ban athletes who eat healthily, or train hard? Or who were born with a great physique? If one of the runners in a race was a smoker, why not ban all the non-smokers from racing against him? How about athletes with money to burn on fancy therapies and sport scientists to monitor their every move? There's no such thing as a level playing field. We make all these artificial distinctions (like not having women compete against men) to try and ensure there is, but we're kidding ourselves. It's hard to see how we might draw a clear line between any of these things and e.g. letting one of the 'runners' use a bike. There may be a case for saying as long as you're actually *running*, anything goes. The alternative would just be *anything* goes - here's the start, here's the finish, first to cross the line wins - like Wacky Races. Before you laugh, think about the competetive advantage being smart gives you in many sporting situations. Is that unfair? If we want the purest form of competition, then giving people's ingenuity and dedication free rein seems to makes sense. Survival of the fittest is a question of environmental adaptiveness, after all. And it wouldn't half be fun to watch.

    66. Re:How unfair... by maxume · · Score: 1

      You would want to take the proper amount to not overstimulate your body, not a horse feedbag full.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    67. Re:How unfair... by maxume · · Score: 1

      It isn't just replacing the ligament with a stronger one, there are holes drilled in the bones and the ligament is threaded through them and used to hold the bones together.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    68. Re:How unfair... by Hydian · · Score: 1

      How much is his advantage offset by the muscles that he doesn't have in the lower leg and foot? Or that he has to run in a much more ungainly manner?

      This isn't really any different than the arguments being held in the swimming arena right now over Speedo's new LZR Racer swimsuit which has helped to break 30 records since it was introduced in February.

      Technology will always be a factor in athletic events, whether it is used to enhance training, nutrition, or to make better equipment. Some countries will be on the leading edge of these advances and benefit from them while others are using last year's technology or worse. It isn't like any of this is a new revelation.

      To bring this back to direct relevance, I'm sure that all of the other runners are going to be wearing something other than tshirts, shorts, and Chuck Taylors. I'm equally sure that someone is going to have equipment that gives them a slight edge over somebody else. Nevermind the training and nutrition that is available in a country like the US or Russia versus a country like Myanmar (for example.)

      The guy isn't even fast enough to qualify for the event yet, so his prosthetics can't be giving him that much of an advantage. It's certainly not enough of an issue to worry about IMHO.

    69. Re:How unfair... by oliderid · · Score: 1

      I could probably overcome this challenge with sufficient technology, if they'd only let me. But it wouldn't be an inspirational story.

      First step show them how determined your are: cut both of your legs off.

    70. Re:How unfair... by turgid · · Score: 1

      But he's also missing the muscles that the lower leg has. Does the lower mass make up for the missing muscle? Instead of muscles which convert potential energy into kinetic, he has a pair of springs which temporarily store and release kinetic energy, provided by the rest of his body. To make a fair judgment, we'd need to do some experiments and make some calculations.

    71. Re:How unfair... by NekSnappa · · Score: 1

      However he can compete on a relay team without putting up a qualifying time. As long as the South African Olympic team has a 4 x 400 relay team that qualifies, when they run at the Olympic games they can substitute runners. At that point the could put this guy in now that he has been allowed to try to qualify.

      --
      I want to shoot the messenger!
    72. Re:How unfair... by mofag · · Score: 1

      Insightful? Maybe your fat-laden carves require dragging. Mine actually actively contribute to my locomotion. This is in stark contrast to the springs in the "cheetah" prosthetics which merely store and return energy that the runner has already expended. Even with these amazing devices the amputee runner is still at a disadvantage (to an athlete that is, you should probably save your pennies and go get your legs cut off ASAP). See here if you want more info http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/mg19426055.200

    73. Re:How unfair... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Clearly the champion in an inferior class of athletes should get the chance to prove his mettle against those in a superior class.

      This might not even need manifest in a regular competition.

      It could simply be a special exhibition heat run sometime during the normal games.

      The man has earned the right to clash with the Titans.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    74. Re:How unfair... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the stupidest thing I've read today, and I'm sure that most of you believe it.

      But, fuck get a brain, most sportsmen wouldn't give up half their legs, even if it helped to improve their performances. What, actually, it doesn't.

      Try to be reasonable thinkers people, not stupid geeks that don't know the value of human body.

    75. Re:How unfair... by JonathanBoyd · · Score: 1

      I agree in principle with the idea of a separate special event where both able-bodied and handicapped athletes compete, but as others have pointed out, he's too slow so there isn't much point yet.

    76. Re:How unfair... by FluffyWithTeeth · · Score: 1

      Paralympics. The special olympics are for the mentally handicapped, and while I'm sure they're very nice, have nowhere near the level of sports competition shown in the normal and paralympics.

    77. Re:How unfair... by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Then I retract my comment; I have nothing against the mentally handicapped in general, but I'm not sure granting them bionic super powers would be a good idea per se.

    78. Re:How unfair... by saiha · · Score: 1

      What about the sentimental value of the person who gets booted from the team even though he has a better time? In my eyes it will be another failure of affirmative action, but a failure that so many people choose to ignore.

    79. Re:How unfair... by popmaker · · Score: 1

      Reading the comments, and especially this one, it looks like eveyone thinks this is an advantage. It is not. The guy had to train extra to be able to run normally, and has to rely completely on the upper parts of his leg.

      I mean, come one. Are you REALLY thinking that artificial legs are as good as the real ones. And these aren't "robotic" legs that run on their own. These are the modern day equivalent of wooden legs!

    80. Re:How unfair... by HetMes · · Score: 1

      One word: precedent!

    81. Re:How unfair... by popmaker · · Score: 1

      I don't care. They can handle other cases differently, and to my knowledge, this is the only case like this.

  2. Aperture Science is branching out, I see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Since they can't compete with Black Mesa, now they're in the sporting equipment business?

    Look out Nike.

    1. Re:Aperture Science is branching out, I see by TypoNAM · · Score: 1

      There might be cake involved I hear too..

      Wait, wasn't cake a lie the last time?

      --
      This space is not for rent.
  3. And this is fair HOW??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jeez, why don't we just give the guy a jet pack and let him fly to the finish line?

  4. i'm an amputee too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i get debilitating headaches when running, except when on a bicycle.

    1. Re:i'm an amputee too by Slashdot+Suxxors · · Score: 5, Funny

      You run on bicycles??

  5. Cyborg Olympics by neomunk · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sweet. Now I'm gonna go get my left arm hacked off and get a harpoon launcher installed for the javelin throw.

    Or, to put it in a way slashdot understands...

    1: Get amputation(s).
    2: Get prosthetics with a mechanical advantage over mere flesh.
    3: ???
    4: Profit!

    1. Re:Cyborg Olympics by Hankapobe · · Score: 2

      Sweet. Now I'm gonna go get my left arm hacked off and get a harpoon launcher installed for the javelin throw. Or, to put it in a way slashdot understands... 1: Get amputation(s). 2: Get prosthetics with a mechanical advantage over mere flesh. 3: ??? 4: Profit!

      I'm getting a chainsaw on mine!

    2. Re:Cyborg Olympics by Joe+Tie. · · Score: 1

      I'm getting the discarded arm from one of you guys on mine! I will be known as "Mr. Two Arms", and fight crime when I'm not busy winning the olympics.

      --
      Everything will be taken away from you.
    3. Re:Cyborg Olympics by nickname29 · · Score: 1

      He does not get a big advantage over other athletes â" he has had huge hurdles to overcome (balance for one). Why not let him compete in the Olympics? The Olympics is supposed to take the best guy â" and not discriminate against him because he is disabled.

      Why not make a special event for normal athletes at the para-Olympics (since they are at a disadvantage to non-able bodied athletes)?

      Some able bodied (steroid drinking) idiot is going to claim that he is the fastest guy on earth (because he won at the Olympics) â" yet a disabled person best him at that.

      Are their any disabled athletic (or other sport) personalities that are popular in the public eye (and huge role models)? I would guess that you would not be able to name one â" this will be the perfect opportunity to bring disabled people into the public arena.

      Wouldnâ(TM)t it be cool if a disabled person is the new face of Coke or Adidas or one of those products? Have you ever seen a disabled sport star used in an advertisement?

    4. Re:Cyborg Olympics by eln · · Score: 5, Funny

      Just make sure you always masturbate with the OTHER hand.

      Trust me on this one.

    5. Re:Cyborg Olympics by neomunk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You guessed wrong: Lance Armstrong.

      But back on topic, this guy DOES enjoy a measurable mechanical advantage over his flesh and blood competitors. Yes, he had extra work to do to be able to use the devices, but by the same token we don't let pole vaulters (with pole) in the high-jump.

    6. Re:Cyborg Olympics by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 1

      What's wrong with lance other than being the uniballer?

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    7. Re:Cyborg Olympics by SiriusStarr · · Score: 1

      I seem to be doing this a lot lately, but...

      Obligatory Ctrl-Alt-Del:

      http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070428

      --
      Fear the penguin.
    8. Re:Cyborg Olympics by nick_davison · · Score: 1

      Technically, a harpoon launcher allows you to use an external power source (compressed air, explosive, etc.) while his legs don't directly add power to the equation.

      What they do however is take an inherrently inefficient task (the loss of kinetic energy from a running stride) and make it more efficient (storing that energy in a spring and then re-releasing it to power forward).

      What he's doing is closer to a high jumper entering on a state of the art pogo stick.

      Of course, I think it's a brilliant idea. I'm trying out for the marathon on another form of energy transference I call "a bicycle." I'm pretty sure I can get my 26 mile time down under two hours. Never thought of myself as an Olympian but Beijing, here I come!

    9. Re:Cyborg Olympics by Lobster+Quadrille · · Score: 1

      Uber-bonus points for the Evil Dead 2 reference.

      I'm going to cut off my leg and get a minigun.

      --
      "The cup is in turn designed for holding hot or cold liquids, and has an open rim and closed base." --US Patent #5425497
    10. Re:Cyborg Olympics by Lobster+Quadrille · · Score: 1

      He did have to deal with that whole 'Cancer' thing...

      --
      "The cup is in turn designed for holding hot or cold liquids, and has an open rim and closed base." --US Patent #5425497
    11. Re:Cyborg Olympics by willyhill · · Score: 2, Funny

      Laser-wielding sharks cannot be far behind now.

      --
      The twitter monologues. Click on my homepage and be amazed.
    12. Re:Cyborg Olympics by Nulifier · · Score: 1

      The reason they don't allow steroids is because they give a person an unfair advantage. So how is a mechanical advantage different from a chemical one? The only difference is because one has a disadvantage in every-day life and so we can't discriminate (don't mean to be a troll) The reason that they have the para-olympics is for fairness. If an able-bodied athlete can best a disabled one, then that is not fair and they should compete at different levels. Now the problem is simply reversed, no matter whether or not he is good enough to make full use of his advantage, you are setting the precedent of allowing such a mechanical advantage.

    13. Re:Cyborg Olympics by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 1

      Yeah but him and the newt got better.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    14. Re:Cyborg Olympics by nametaken · · Score: 1

      3: Win Olympics?

    15. Re:Cyborg Olympics by pizzach · · Score: 1

      Haven't you heard? Meat grinders are now a part of a coaches standard equipment.

      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    16. Re:Cyborg Olympics by Joe+Tie. · · Score: 1

      It's a bit of a balancing act though, things stopped being black and white quite a while back. We know enough about genetics for example, to see that some of the effects caused by athletes doping themselves occur naturally in some of the best competitors. There's a slippery slope where the end effect is only a certain "pure" kind of human being allowed to participate.

      --
      Everything will be taken away from you.
    17. Re:Cyborg Olympics by krazytekn0 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Guy who had cancer != guy is disabled

      --
      Not all life is cyber. Extra Income
    18. Re:Cyborg Olympics by neomunk · · Score: 1

      I would be all in favor of this guy competing, but he's gotta give up the 'Human++' leg for one that offers the same level of performance as a real leg. That would have been a problem even just 20 years ago, but our modeling technology is to the point where we can test any and all designs before the first piece of plastic is molded.

    19. Re:Cyborg Olympics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thats really not nice. i went to school with oscar! he's tried his whole to do something with his disability! now when he gets it right you mock him! what are you doing with your life? sitting in front of a computer mocking ppl!!!!

    20. Re:Cyborg Olympics by neomunk · · Score: 1

      Amongst other things, one of my primary functions in life is raising children, with values such as understanding of diversity, empathy, compassion, humility and sociability. I also impress the values of critical thinking, logical skepticism and fairness. If you want to know my feelings on the subject, refer to post (#23445512)

  6. Doping goes to a whole new level by Swizec · · Score: 1

    This sets a really nice precedence. When people with artifically created, better, limbs can compete. What's so wrong with somebody who just takes some amphetamines or something? At least they're still using human body parts ...

    Once it takes robotic limbs to win olympic medals we've really taken all the fun out of competing.

    1. Re:Doping goes to a whole new level by y86 · · Score: 1

      Once it takes robotic limbs to win olympic medals we've really taken all the fun out of competing. I would say that's up for debate. Ever watch that stupid robot battle show? Upgrades may bring some excitement into the games.
    2. Re:Doping goes to a whole new level by antifoidulus · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ever watch that stupid robot battle show?

      The O'Reilly factor?

    3. Re:Doping goes to a whole new level by danpat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Here's what's wrong with someone who "just takes some amphetamines":

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#Tom_Simpson_dies_in_the_Tour

      Drug taking is mostly illegal because of the seriously negative side effects of many of the performance enhancing drugs.

      If drugs were allowed, I can imagine seeing "suicide winners" appearing. People prepared to push the doping so far that they'd keel over and die on the finish line. Who wants to compete with that? I like winning, but I'm not really prepared to die because I've overridden a bunch of my body's built-in self protection mechanisms.

      Comparing prosthetic limbs to drug-taking doesn't really seem like comparing apples to apples, but there are some parallels. If prosthetic limbs are allowed and they become so good that only people with them can win, how many people will be prepared to "cripple" themselves to win, and is it fair on those who don't want to chop off a leg or two? I don't think it is.

      Like there are categories of physical ability in the Paralympics now, and weight classes in boxing, martial sports, etc, I think that everything should just be categorised, and "able-bodied" just becomes another category. If prosthetics continue to improve, "able-bodied" might not even be the best performing (i.e. fastest) category in all sports. If you want to move into the "faster" category, sure, go ahead and chop off a leg, but you can't compete against non-prosthetic-endowed athletes any more.

    4. Re:Doping goes to a whole new level by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    5. Re:Doping goes to a whole new level by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      So people with glasses should not be allowed to compete at anything, either?

    6. Re:Doping goes to a whole new level by Swizec · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But people with glasses don't see better than people without glasses and so far it doesn't seem like they ever will, whereas prosthetics have already shown the ability to improve a person's performance, perhaps not (yet) against top athletes, but very certainly in comparison to an average human being.

    7. Re:Doping goes to a whole new level by sjbe · · Score: 1

      Drug taking is mostly illegal because of the seriously negative side effects of many of the performance enhancing drugs. That's half the reason. The other half is to keep sports from becoming a pharmaceutical arms race with the associated costs in addition to the dangers you already mentioned. (Yes I know in reality it already is but we don't have to condone it) Seems to miss the point of a fair competition if the winner is determined by who has the most/best drugs pumped into them.
  7. Holy fast! by eggsurplus · · Score: 1

    1.01 seconds! I can't even type this post that fast.

    1. Re:Holy fast! by Dr.+Eggman · · Score: 1

      No, he must improve by that much. His time is 46.56 seconds. He needs 45.55 seconds to qualify for the 400-meter

      --
      Demented But Determined.
  8. Cyborg olympic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Although it might sound rude, but people with non-natural body part should not compete with other "able-bodied" athletes. This is almost the same as using enhancement drugs. One thing for sure, able-bodied runner could sprang their ankle. This athlete is immune to that. There are other unfair advantage(s) for this and other able-bodied athletes. He should be allowed to compete, but just not on the same ground. Maybe start another league of Olympics specially designed for amputees?

    1. Re:Cyborg olympic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      look, the man was banned from the paralympics because it was felt that the prosthetic limbs gave him too much of an unfair advantage over the disabled people, now you want to ban him from the able-bodied olympics too? What will we have next, the Pistorilympics just for him? Anyone want to host it?

    2. Re:Cyborg olympic by psychodelicacy · · Score: 1

      I think you're making a false leap of logic here - you're assuming that competing in the Olympics is a matter of equal rights. It isn't. It's about falling within particular physical categories and competing according to the requirements of those categories. For women and men to have different events is not sexist, it reflects the biological reality that normal physical ranges are different for the two sexes. Equally, excluding someone with these prostheses from competing against both those with natural limbs and those who use wheelchairs is not a matter of equal rights, but a reflection of the fact that his chosen method of dealing with his impairment puts him outside the requirements of each of those competition categories. It sucks for him, but I'm bemused as to why it is seen as "unfair" - except in the wider cosmic sense.

      --
      A closed mouth gathers no foot.
  9. Lieutenant Dan by stevedmc · · Score: 0

    Maybe Lieutenant Dan's destiny wasn't to die in battle after all.

  10. Some Day by KidKadaver · · Score: 5, Funny

    Someday, we'll look back at this event, with the power of hindsight and wonder how we failed to see the Cyborg War coming.

    1. Re:Some Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      When you say "the power of hindsight", you mean having cybernetic eyes implanted in the backs of our heads, right?

    2. Re:Some Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would you put your brain in a robot body?

    3. Re:Some Day by vikstar · · Score: 1

      I for one welcome... eh, you know the drill.

      --
      The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim.
  11. And the medal goes to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ...the engineering team that actually created his legs? Geez. How many body parts can I have replaced before I cease to be a full-human athlete? I guess I could just have a brain wired up with an android and qualify?
    I dont like where this is going years down the road.

    1. Re:And the medal goes to... by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1

      ...the engineering team that actually created his legs? Geez. How many body parts can I have replaced before I cease to be a full-human athlete? I guess I could just have a brain wired up with an android and qualify? I dont like where this is going years down the road. Who cares, really? Olympic sports, especially track and field, are already dominated by such niche "skill sets" that it's all started to lose any meaning. Athletic competition hearkens back to the early early days of man, when the guy with the most "street cred" was the one who was the baddest-ass hunter and/or warrior. The track and field events of the Olympic Games map onto what used to be essential survival skills. Back then, the dude who could track a herd of wildebeest for 3 days at a constant jog, then sprint up to the nearest one and throw a spear into it, then carry the heaviest chunk of animal protein back to the tribe--- he'd be worth his weight in gold, not just a gold medal. Now they've split up what was once a meaningful metric into multiple categories, wherein each one is dominated by specialists devoting their entire lives to mastering what amounts to one stupid pet trick. That's not praiseworthy, that's fucking SICK! So really, who cares if a guy with spring-legs runs in the Olympics? How is a win by some natural-legged freak whose life has been devoted to building up a particular muscle set more "legitimate"? It's already a celebration of unnaturally developed abilities. Let the prosthetic-equipped freak run with the other freaks.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    2. Re:And the medal goes to... by somersault · · Score: 1

      People are competitive. Given any event like the Olympics you're always going to end up with people crazy enough to devote their lives to it. Even when the games started over 2000 years ago these skills were no longer essential survival skills anyway. Some people just enjoy athletics. I think it was better in those days because they had to do all the events though, not just single events? That left things a bit more balanced and perhaps less freakish in your books?

      The natural win is more legitimate because that athlete has worked at developing the muscles to win, rather than just bought some spring loaded legs and strapped them on, which doesn't take any dedication or training (apart from to run on them without falling over).. training to run fast is in no way 'unnatural' either, I don't see how you could think that even if someone is training their legs with weights. As long as they don't use steroids or other performance enhancing drugs, it's all natural, baby! :p

      --
      which is totally what she said
    3. Re:And the medal goes to... by denzacar · · Score: 1

      How many body parts can I have replaced before I cease to be a full-human athlete? 42
      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  12. I guess the only thing I can say is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a triumph!

  13. Deserves a chance by kernowyon · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The guy was 11 months old when his legs were amputated below the knee. Regardless of whether these J blades give him a slight edge or not (personally I am not a sports person oddly enough!), he deserves a chance to compete based on his determination if nothing else!
    He is a great role model for other disabled persons in his way - just as Stephen Hawking is in his.

    --
    Awful UID - but I have been here ages...
    1. Re:Deserves a chance by amRadioHed · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't understand why he deserves a chance. My body is not physically able to compete in the Olympics either. Same goes for almost everyone in the world. It's really no big deal.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    2. Re:Deserves a chance by danpat · · Score: 1

      Ever see how many of the Paralympic events are run? Everyone is thrown into the same race, no matter what your disability. The winner, however, is judged as the person who gets closest to the world record for their category of disability.

      So sure, stick him in the race with everyone else. However if an able-bodied athlete breaks the able-bodied world record, and this guy doesn't break the "two-amputated-legs" record, then he doesn't win, even if he crosses the line first.

    3. Re:Deserves a chance by uniquename72 · · Score: 1

      Agreed. My body can't naturally go as fast as even a slow Olympian, so why not let me ride my motorcycle in the race? Would it help if I were paraplegic? Could I use a trampoline for the high jump, too?

    4. Re:Deserves a chance by kernowyon · · Score: 0

      OK, I can understand that we have different views, but someone modded me down for my comment?
      I can appreciate that not everyone agrees with my post - and I can fully understand the opposing viewpoint from the less rabid posters.
      I am classified as "disabled" in the UK because I have heart problems, and one of my friends is in a wheelchair because he suffers from a genetic condition, so perhaps I can sympathise with the disabled more than some of the younger, fitter slashdotters. But some of the comments have been downright illogical on this thread. Yes, most perhaps were aiming for +5 funny, but to suggest that people may wish to lose limbs to win athletic events is quite sick. I have three coronary artery stents - which in theory *could* improve bloodflow in the heart of a perfectly healthy person - so, would those people risk the possibility of having their heart stop or worse to perhaps gain a 0.01% increase in their chance of winning a race? Believe me, the procedure is pretty scary! As for having limbs sawn off to stand a chance of winning an event? The risks of embolism alone are simply not worth it.
      The fact that this guy has taken part in the Paralympics is, in itself, proof of his commitment to sport. The fact that, despite the 1 second plus gap between his best time and the Olympic minimum qualifying time, he is prepared to give it a go, should be applauded.

      --
      Awful UID - but I have been here ages...
    5. Re:Deserves a chance by Cederic · · Score: 1


      The fact that he wants to use technological aids to compete is frankly inequitable. If he runs in the Olympics then the other athletes must be permitted similar spring devices on their legs. At which point they'll gain a percentage increase in performance, and he'll still be nowhere near fast enough.

      His body is not capable of running at Olympic speeds. I don't care how committed he is, he just needs to fucking deal with it. My body struggles to walk down stairs some days, I don't demand to compete with Olympians and expect advanced tech to give me an advantage. Why is he so special?

      Incidentally, check today's news and read the list of crap Dwaine Chambers was taking to boost his performance. That's a lot of pharmaceutical misuse to gain a minor performance boost. You bet that people like him would lose a leg or two to get a significant boost to their speed.

      Shit, one day I'm going to take a machete to my knees just to solve the problem, let alone gain worldwide recognition and life changing financial rewards.

    6. Re:Deserves a chance by servognome · · Score: 1

      I have three coronary artery stents - which in theory *could* improve bloodflow in the heart of a perfectly healthy person - so, would those people risk the possibility of having their heart stop or worse to perhaps gain a 0.01% increase in their chance of winning a race? Believe me, the procedure is pretty scary! As for having limbs sawn off to stand a chance of winning an event? The risks of embolism alone are simply not worth it.
      Depends on what you define as "worth it." Look at all the athletes who use steroids knowing the risks, who look into Tommy John Surgery because they think it will make them throw harder. Hell, look at fashion models who destroy their health to have the "right look"
      People have dreams, and will do what they can to accomplish them. I'm sure there'd be a line of slashdotters lined up to get on a spaceship to be the first human on Mars, even if they knew the trip was a 10% chance of survival. I wouldn't put it past some Tour de France rider to have a surgery that increased their blood flow.

      The problem isn't this athlete, it's what do you do if there is a technological advantage of having prothetic legs. What happens when enough world class runners choose to have their limbs sawed off that the only way to compete is to make the same choice?
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
  14. PDF of full decision by wanax · · Score: 4, Informative
    can be found here.

    I personally think this is the right decision. While obviously there is a line where replacement turns into enhancement, unless it's clearly crossed I'm in favor of letting everybody who has the ability compete. The IAAF did not show that there was enhancement (and even so, his best 400m time of 46.56s is over a second off the Olympic qualifying time of 45.55s).

    My favorite part, where the panel finds that the IAAF biased the testing against him, and then told the press they were DQ'ing him before voting on it is here:

    60. At this stage, in the Panel's view, the process began to go "off the rails". The correspondence between the IAAF nad Prof. Bruggemann shos that his instructions were to carry out the testing only when Mr Pistorius was running in a straight line after the acceleration phase. By the time that the IAAF commissioned the Cologne tests it was known that this was the part of the race in which Mr Pistorius usually ran at his fastest.

    61. [...] IAAF's officials must have known that, by excluding the start and the acceleration phase, the results would create a distorted view of Mr Pistorius' advantages and/or disadvantages. [...]

    62. The stori is not enhances by the fact that Dr. Robert Gailey, the scientist nominated by Mr Pistorius [...] was effectively "frozen out" to such an extent that he declined to attend the Cologne tests. He was informed that he would be allowed to attend only as an observer, with no input on the testing protocol or on the analysis.

    68. The impression of prejudgement is also enhanced by the fact that Dr. Locatelli and other IAAF officials told the press before the vote was taken that Mr Pistorius would be banned from IAAF sanctioned events.

    70. In the Panel's view, the manned in which the IAAF hendled the situation of MR Pistorius in the period from July 2007 to January 2008 fell short of the high standards that the international sporting community is entitield to expect from a federation such as the IAAF.
    1. Re:PDF of full decision by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      The IAAF did not show that there was enhancement (and even so, his best 400m time of 46.56s is over a second off the Olympic qualifying time of 45.55s). Wow, so by that logic I could enter on a moped and, so long as I don't hammer the throttle during qualifying, that would be ok.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:PDF of full decision by wanax · · Score: 1

      I think this article sums up my opinion fairly well. But using a moped is clearly enhancement. The IAAF didn't show that these particular legs allow superior overall biomechanics to a natural leg. But my main point is that this needs to be regulated, rather than banned. This is because there are already many border-line cases. Is this really very different from a runner with a titanium rod in their leg? Or with Speedo's new swimsuit that's causing controversy? What about Tiger Woods' LASIK surgery? Or Floyd Landis' artifical hip?

      There are already many things that are currently allowed which are only different from these legs in degree, rather than kind. And that's why this guy should be able to compete.

    3. Re:PDF of full decision by CodyRazor · · Score: 1

      I bet he has great endurance, those things dont weight much, what if he then decides to go in the marathon, where he may have a massive advantage and be 10 minutes faster?

      Where do you draw the line? What time do you need to be capable of for it to not be enhancement? What if you run a little slower in the trails to meet that time then go all out for the gold medal?

      He should not be allowed to compete.

      Also it brings up another interesting question, how long until the paralympic records a better than the olympic? how long till its just a competition for cyborgs? I'd pay to see that. Especially if they had guns.

      --
      So Skulldilocks threw acid on the schoolchildrens' faces, cause somebody from the bible told her to do it!
    4. Re:PDF of full decision by incripshin · · Score: 1

      Well, it really is a huge advantage. His legs are almost 100% efficient. That's just how springs work. When his 'legs' impact the track, the springs will store the energy and release it to propel him forward. Human muscles aren't as efficient. My leg's muscles would use energy on the impact and use up even more to push off. When you consider the limited amount of energy available for sprinters in their legs, it becomes a big difference. When I ran the 200m in high school, I would have nothing left in my legs by the time I finished. I'm pretty sure that if he didn't have these spring-loaded legs, he wouldn't have gotten quite so close.

    5. Re:PDF of full decision by wanax · · Score: 1

      If you look at the full biomechanics, it isn't so clear that it's an advantage overall. Because the downside of these legs, because they're so springy, is that he is forced upright straight out of the blocks, and has to generate a lot more of the acceleration from his hips. This is a major consideration in a 400m race. If he had been seeking to run with these legs over a longer distance, it is probable that the IAAF analysis would have found the 'ankle efficiency' gain would outweigh the loss of acceleration efficiency, and he wouldn't have been allowed to use those particular legs.

      But this, in my opinion, is little different than what shoes a runner is allowed to wear, or what swimsuit a swimmer is allowed. This is why the matter requires careful regulation. As the technology available for non-disabled athletes allows for better performance (within each event), the restrictions on prosthetics allowed for disabled athletes at the highest level should also be relaxed. I think we know enough about how the body works to regulate these things -- taking into consideration the event and the biomechanical advantages and costs -- in a way that allows extraordinary disabled athletes to compete in many events.

    6. Re:PDF of full decision by incripshin · · Score: 1

      I see your point, but I don't see the connection between shoes and prosthetics. With shoes, the playing field is level: there is a limit on the length of spikes, and everybody chooses to wear them. Another good thing about spikes is that without them, there would be eight people with the exact same acceleration because of the way friction works. Allowing spikes allows the stronger athletes to accelerate faster if they want to. With prosthetics, it isn't clear where the line is (you describe striking a balance between ankle efficiency and acceleration). I think it's better to draw the line before prosthetics, even if it does hurt some feelings.

    7. Re:PDF of full decision by wanax · · Score: 1

      I actually wasn't thinking about the spikes. If you look at the ESPN article I linked to a few posts up, they mention that the US Olympic committee is developing a carbon souled running shoe with Nike that returns a lot more energy than normal to the runner's stride, which is exactly what these legs are doing.

      When you start having shoes, or in an already pending case swimsuits (Speedo LZR Racer) that some countries can't afford (requires individual custom fitting, sometimes per event) I think you've already crossed the line into letting non-disabled athletes to using prosthetic enhancement. I don't see why the courtesy to do so shouldn't be extended to disabled athletes who need some mechanical replacement.

    8. Re:PDF of full decision by sjbe · · Score: 1

      But using a moped is clearly enhancement. So are his prosthetic legs. Betcha he doesn't run very fast without them.

      Is this really very different from a runner with a titanium rod in their leg? Would depend on the particulars but generally that is a limitation, not an advantage or enhancement.

      Or with Speedo's new swimsuit that's causing controversy? So long as everyone can buy it, I don't see a problem. If they can't buy it then yes it should be banned.

      What about Tiger Woods' LASIK surgery? I've had Lasik myself. No performance advantage there that cannot be had by others or other means. There are a few corner cases where vision correction would eliminate a handicap but none where it would provide an unfair advantage.

      Or Floyd Landis' artifical hip? Doesn't really affect anything. He lost training and it won't make his muscles or cardio system perform any better. Plus I think the performance enhancing drugs he allegedly took probably affected his performance more anyway.

      There are already many things that are currently allowed which are only different from these legs in degree, rather than kind. And that's why this guy should be able to compete. And there are many things that aren't allowed and that is why he should NOT be allowed to compete. True it has to be decided on a case-by-case basis but in the case of prosthetics, it's not a level playing field. They provide a mechanical advantage (he performs better with them than without them) not available to other athletes so they should not be allowed.
  15. So where do you draw the line ? by erlehmann · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Artificial limbs, I see that. Now what is with someone who had laser surgery on his eyes so he/she can see better ? Would you ban that person from a shooting match ? Even if he/she still can't see better than a top athlete ? If the person can see on par ? Or better ?

    In the end, the questions we should ask ourselves probably are not about fairness but about the purpose of such games.

    1. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by megaditto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the end, the questions we should ask ourselves probably are not about fairness but about the purpose of such games. Main purpose: Milking the cash of pseudo-patriotic idiots.

      Nailed it, didn't I? Be honest now...
      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    2. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by dutchct · · Score: 0

      You could start comparing this kind of thing to automotive racing.

      For example in autocross, if you want to race your car in the stock class, your car must be stock or have replacement parts of equivalent performance (a jobber part you would get at napa to replace the old broken one).

      If you want to go faster and upgrade your car, you have to change to a class that allows the upgrade. You could do the same thing with upgraded human parts. Harpoon arms ftw!

    3. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by wass · · Score: 1

      That would depend on how much one's improved sight actually helps them shoot. Ie, what is the limiting factor in sharpshooting, is it sight, or the plethora of other factors that requires steadily aiming and firing a gun. Does going beyond 20/20 actually help out significantly beyond the other factors?

      --

      make world, not war

    4. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Well, we already have the ban on drugs in sports. IMHO the line that has been drawn is quite clear - you can use enhancements outside your body like all sorts of fancy equipment and high altitude training, but the body itself must start out and be natural (I include this because there's drugs that are out of your system come competition time, but are still illegal) and during competition time you must rely on your natural body. Clearly you wouldn't let him "run" in an exoskeleton or a F1 car, why would you let him run with artificial feet? Yes, I realize that without his "feet" he got two stumps and wouldn't get anywhere, but it's not supposed to be like golf where everyone has a handicap to put them on equal footing. The 400m track competition measures unassisted running speed, otherwise it would be 400m biking or 400m skating or 400m whatever that also relies on all human force. If you run with any kind of artifical tool you should IMO be banned from the running competition. I don't really care if it's a pacemaker, if that pacemaker can make your "heart" operate faster than natural speed then that too is an advantage.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by Tingler · · Score: 1

      Now what is with someone who had laser surgery on his eyes so he/she can see better?

      In your example, the person in question still has his original eyes. Using that segment of your argument, you could suggest that a person with a broken and repaired arm would no longer be eligible to compete in the Olympics. A closer example to what is proposed would be if a shooter removed their eyes and replaced them with synthetic eyes.

      I don't have an answer to this debate on either side. At this time, it seems fair to let this person to compete in the Olympics. But what about the following generations of artificial body parts? Should we allow Ellen Ripley to use the exoskeleton she used in Aliens to complete in the weight lifting competition? Or should we wait until the exoskeleton is small enough to be surgically inserted into a person's body?

      The Olympic Committee will have to decide what is required to establish a person as human enough to compete. They will have to decide this over and over again and it will get more difficult with each generation.

      They will look back on the time of steroid use as the halcyon days of Olympic Committee debates

    6. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by icegreentea · · Score: 1

      No. But that is a false analogy. Laser eye surgery at best will not allow to see better than the human maximum, nor will it allow to see in a fundamentally different way. Pistorius' legs do. His efficiency is beyond the reach of any human, simply because he doesn't have to flex his large segments of his leg when he lands each stride. His race performance bares it out. He maintains an almost constant top speed for the entire race, something that is impossible for any human runner. His legs are BUILT for running. They are nearly impossible to balance on when walking or standing still. They are almost literally springs. This would be more like giving a shooter a scope, and adjustable laser pointer instead of laser eye surgery.

    7. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod up.

      I care about the Olympics ever so slightly more than I care about the WWE, but mostly because of the social and cultural upheaval it can cause to the local populace in a host city. As someone who was living in Seattle when it was announced, I was saddened to hear Vancouver got the nod for 2010. It brings back the anger of having corrupt local governments force taxpayers to pay for stadiums (such as Safeco Field) they voted against, combined with abusive use of eminent domain - if there ever is a legit use for it, combined with an infrastructure almost all ill-equipped to deal with the rush of crowds from the events, only on a much more massive scale than typically seen. Locals have to go through all of that so that a bunch of people outside of the community can make a lot of money off of it, while the local politicians get their ego stroked by publicity and good tickets to the events.

    8. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Laser eye surgery doesn't fundamentally change how you see, but these prosthetics fundamentally change how he runs. What do you do when new prosthetics are developed that increase performance X%, just allow him to upgrade while the rest of the field sticks there thumbs up their asses?

      Lets keep things in perspective, track and field is a sport about human performance, this ruling just introduced engineering into track and field as a major factor. I find this far more preposterous than the use of steroids, at least steroids are just hormones increasing performance through biological means and hence still 'human performance'.

      And what are you trying to imply is the 'purpose of such games'? Good will, giving everybody a chance, blaah blaah? The purpose is a fair competition amongst the best the world has to offer. The keep time for a reason, the test for ban substances for a reason, the call false starts for a reason. That's right not everybody gets a chance to compete and only one gets the gold.

    9. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by Jarik_Tentsu · · Score: 1

      Artificial limbs, I see that. Now what is with someone who had laser surgery on his eyes so he/she can see better ? Would you ban that person from a shooting match ? Even if he/she still can't see better than a top athlete ? If the person can see on par ? Or better ? What stops desperate athletes to all go and get cyborg implants and surgery or whatnot to make them better?

      ~Jarik
    10. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by Kavorkian_scarf · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between corrective surgery and artificial limbs in my book. What if they came out with a new prosthetic leg that let this guy run 2 seconds faster than his personal best? Then its not about athletic ability as much as it is about the latest and greatest advances in spring loaded legs.

    11. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Nailed it, didn't I? Nope.

      I'm more in favour of 'providing a nominal reason for people from different (often politically adversarial) countries to mix and experience each others' cultures, to enable greater understanding and tolerance to develop.'
    12. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      The original purpose of the Olympics, in my best guess, was to show the known world at that time who was superior.

      Nowdays, it's all about cash. Shoot the CEO of every company involved with the Olympics, and I'll guarantee you that won't happen ever again, as nobody would willingly touch the olympics with a 50 foot pole.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    13. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by vikstar · · Score: 1

      The artificial limbs the guy has apparently allow him to use significantly less energy than normal human feet. So for your analogy, would you let some who's had their eyes removed and replaced with robocop eyes shoot in a match?

      --
      The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim.
    14. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by psychodelicacy · · Score: 1

      It's also a different situation. Surgery to correct deteriorating eyesight is no different from surgery to correct an injury to the leg, say. It can't take the person beyond the range of normal human possibility, but only improve them within biological limits. If the result of surgery were a prosthetic which provided zoom vision, then of course that person should not be allowed to compete with people with natural eyesight.

      --
      A closed mouth gathers no foot.
    15. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by somersault · · Score: 1

      'providing a nominal reason for people from different (often politically adversarial) countries to mix and experience each others' cultures, to enable greater understanding and tolerance to develop by beating foreigner's asses to the ground in mostly non-violent but still satisfying events.' There we go, fixed that for you :)
      --
      which is totally what she said
    16. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by somersault · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure it's impossible to put an exoskeleton inside your body, because then it by definition becomes an endoskeleton ;)

      It's pretty ludicrous that this guy is allowed to compete in the normal olympics. Obviously like everyone else I feel bad for the guy if he was wanting to be a runner and then lost his legs, but basically he should now be competing in the para-olympics, or starting some special sport for amputees. It would be pretty cool to have a mixed sport where amputees could compete with normal humans on powerisers :)

      Doesn't this guy have a bit of an advantage at a lack of weight, or are his prosthetics quite heavy?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    17. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      Main purpose: Milking the cash of pseudo-patriotic idiots.

      Nailed it, didn't I? Be honest now... Hells yea, except that I would drop the "pseudo-patriotic" and leave it at that.

      People should DO sports, not watch them. It's interesting that the multi-billion sports industry grew at the same rate as obesity.
      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    18. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by MojoStan · · Score: 1

      People should DO sports, not watch them. It's interesting that the multi-billion sports industry grew at the same rate as obesity. Right on! People should DO sex, not watch porn. It's interesting that the multi-billion dollar porn industry grew at the same rate as Slashdot accounts.
      --
      TO START
      PRESS ANY KEY

      Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...

    19. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by sjbe · · Score: 1

      Artificial limbs, I see that. Now what is with someone who had laser surgery on his eyes so he/she can see better ? For that case no because it's a repair to a damaged or poorly-functioning natural body part. I would see it as no different than having a torn acl repaired or maybe having a hip replaced. However if someone had bionic eyes installed that would likely be a different answer. Then it isn't apples to apples anymore. Ultimately there has to be an application of reasonableness to it with a mind towards precedent. It's ok to allow technology so long as it is safe and available to everyone. If it isn't it should be prohibited in the competition.

      Where it's going to get weird is with gene therapy. Then the line between natural and unnatural is going to get VERY fuzzy because you will be changing the genome of the athlete. Fairness will become very hard to adjudicate at that point.
    20. Re:So where do you draw the line ? by H0D_G · · Score: 1

      actually, it would be interesting to compare athletes that have naturally greater than 20/20 (or 6/6 in metric) vision in shooting etc. their natural eyesight is better than a normal person, but is it a sufficient advantage?

      --
      Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home!
  16. this is ridiculous by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    clearly these artificial limbs store kinetic energy in a radically different way. the biomechanics are obviously different. he's using different muscle groups. watch a video of him, and he clearly starts off slower than everyone else, and then speeds up a lot faster than everyone else: he's running on springs

    god bless the guy, he's a phenomenal athlete. but he shouldn't be allowed to compete with runners with real feet. he's playing checkers when everyone else is playing blackjack. what he is doing is just not the same sport as what the other guys on the track are doing. and so he shouldn't compete with them. not because he doesn't deserve to just because he doesn't have feet, but simply because he's playing a different biomechanical game

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:this is ridiculous by Ortega-Starfire · · Score: 1

      >clearly these artificial limbs store kinetic energy in a radically different way

      What?

      --
      ---- Liquid was a patriot ----
    2. Re:this is ridiculous by justleavealonemmmkay · · Score: 1

      How do they store KINETIC energy ? Is there a flywheel involved ?

    3. Re:this is ridiculous by Dr.+Eggman · · Score: 1

      It seems to me the spirit of the Olympic games is to invite friendly competition between nations, not to foster a giant "my country is better than yours" competition. To me, that means that it need not be so strictly regulated. I think the practice of including any able-bodied athelete, as defined as being as capable as any other athelete of their field, is more true to real spirit of inclusion than that if banning any athelete who might have an advantage over, or disadvantage against, any other opponent. In short, I see it as South Africa's right to choose whom they wish to include in their team. If that includes men and women with superior (or inferior, as I remind you he still has not met the qualifying time for the 400-meter) abilities, either due to nature or technology, then so be it.

      --
      Demented But Determined.
    4. Re:this is ridiculous by eln · · Score: 0

      Forget it, he's rolling.

    5. Re:this is ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They store it as potential energy, when the device is flexed.

    6. Re:this is ridiculous by icegreentea · · Score: 4, Informative

      Normally when running, you tense up certain muscles just before foot strike, so your muscles acts like a spring to release part of that energy afterward. Normally, this means that you get tired cause your muscles are constantly in use (active energy storage). His legs are so set up so that they passively store this energy. He does not need put any effort into that part of the stride.

      Not only that, the leg below the knee's importance in sprinting is relatively minor. Aside that the ankle/calf acting as an active shock absorber, nearly all the leg's energy is spent in the upper leg to drive the entire leg forward. His legs are considerably lighter than real human legs, and very much does make him run completely different.

      Pistorius really does run differently. Because of the way his legs are constructed, his maximal running speed may never reach that of an unamputated human being, but his efficiency is beyond anything anyone else can achieve. He's running speed (measured in 10m segments) is far more consistent then any other runner, because he can maintain his full speed for much longer and with relatively less effort than anyone else.

      This is not to say that he is an amazing athlete. He is. He has overcome incredible challenges, and he deserves recognition. But he does not belong in the Olympics the way that they are formulated right now. His artificial allow him to achieve feats of efficiency that simply cannot be reached with any human body no matter how well born and trained. I feel that many are letting themselves being clouded by the emotional aspect of this issue, and ignoring that this would be like letting someone on rollarblades grafted onto their feet compete in a standard track event.

    7. Re:this is ridiculous by jpatters · · Score: 1

      In TFA, it says that the Court of Arbitration for Sport, after hearing from expert testimony, ruled unanimously that:

      A) To exclude him the IAAF would have to prove that he had an undue advantage.
      B) The IAAF failed to do so.

      Obviously, they didn't have the benefit of your profound insight into this issue.

      --
      "Remember, there never were pineapple-almond cookies here."
    8. Re:this is ridiculous by sjbe · · Score: 1

      A) To exclude him the IAAF would have to prove that he had an undue advantage.
      B) The IAAF failed to do so. You forgot:
      C) The CAS panel who made the ruling are a bunch of idiots who missed the entire point.

      MOST people don't have the ability to compete in the Olympics. Having a disability shouldn't give anyone the right to a mechanical or chemical assist not available to the other athletes. Performance enhancing legs are no different than performance enhancing drugs other than their legality. Without them he has as much chance to make the Olympics as the rest of us - none.
    9. Re:this is ridiculous by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I think it would be interesting to fit an intact human with essentially the same spring-loaded gear, then evaluate his performance both with and without the gear.

      I remember when these spring-loaded leg replacements first came on the scene -- what the runners can do with them is amazing. But it is not the same as the ideal of the athlete and nothing but the athlete.

      Here's a parallel: let's postulate that there exist waldo suits for paraplegics, giving them full range of motion. Should they then be allowed to compete as wrestlers? is it fair to the other contestant, who can't get a grip on that hard-plastic suit, and doesn't have the leverage that waldo-driven limbs can generate?

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    10. Re:this is ridiculous by Eosha · · Score: 1

      The problem is quite simple:

      The line between a prosthetic which restores lost natural abilities and a prosthetic which also enhances them is no line at all. You can attempt to quantitatively define the line (like the MIT prof), but since the boundaries of human performance are constantly changing there's no real standard.

      A slightly different question: what if he used a different model of prosthetic leg (longer, springier, I dunno) which enabled him to run faster, but slightly slower than the world record? He would still be within the limits of "normal" performance, but he could get a silver medal simply by changing the technology.

      --
      I have a girlfriend whose name doesn't end in .JPG
    11. Re:this is ridiculous by Atario · · Score: 1

      his maximal running speed may never reach that of an unamputated human being, but his efficiency is beyond anything anyone else can achieve.
      Sounds like he should be running in marathons instead of sprints.
      --
      "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
    12. Re:this is ridiculous by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Do you count steroids as 'technology'? I do.

      We recently had a massive controversy in the UK over a sprinter named Dwain Chambers. He was condemned utterly by virtually everyone involved in UK athletics for taking drugs to enhance his performance. Personally I think they were too harsh on the guy, but that seems to be the current attitude of athletics bodies towards 'unfair' advantages - crucify anyone involved. With that in mind, I think it's pretty two-faced to congratulate this guy and wish him good luck in the Olympics (if he gets there).

    13. Re:this is ridiculous by Solandri · · Score: 1

      clearly these artificial limbs store kinetic energy in a radically different way. the biomechanics are obviously different. he's using different muscle groups. watch a video of him, and he clearly starts off slower than everyone else, and then speeds up a lot faster than everyone else: he's running on springs
      This reminds me of a discussion I had with a friend long ago. What happens when someone is born with a birth defect which happens to enhance his capability in a competitive sport?
    14. Re:this is ridiculous by MBraynard · · Score: 1

      This is hardly scientific but I've also noticed that - just looking at him - he has a higher BF% and isn't nearly as defined, muscularly - as the other athletes in that event.

  17. For long distance it can be an advantage by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For some long distance events they've banned amputees because they have an advantage over normal runners. How long before sprinters gain an advantage as well?

    Will athletes start hacking their own legs off to get ahead?

    --
    No sig today...
    1. Re:For long distance it can be an advantage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Will athletes start hacking their own legs off to get ahead?

      Or---stranger still---will they start hacking their own heads off to get a leg?
    2. Re:For long distance it can be an advantage by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 0, Interesting

      That's nothing.

      In Hawaii, canoe racing is a big sport. Sport isn't even the right term. Fierce competition is more suitable. And there are Men's and Women's canoe clubs, the men's being slightly faster as usual. Well, one of the women's canoe clubs had a member who used to be a man. "She" had the operation and took the hormones, and legally was now a woman. Oh, the fit other clubs had over that situation, because she had a man's greater muscle mass and all that. Her club defended having her because legally she was a she, and besides all the hormones and therapy she was on actually made her less able to compete evenly because those drugs mess up the body to an extent, so they said.

      But the biggest concern that the oversight board had was that, in the future, if a man was not quite able to compete with other men, he might elect to go this route and join a women's club. That way he, or she, would be among the top athletes in her sport.

      Now I ask you, would you cut off your legs to compete in the Olympics, mabye even be guaranteed the gold medal? If the answer is yes, would you instead be willing to cut off other appendages and win the gold medal in the women's division of the same sport?

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
  18. for those who don't rtfa: it's the jock steve mann by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The /. article summary text should really specify that the man is a cyborg. Or change the title to "Augmented Amputee Sprinter..." Because reading the text as-is, I was about to say---if Hopalong Cassidy wants to "roll" with the big boys, why not let him?

  19. He's using undoped human muscles by xmark · · Score: 2, Insightful

    At the same time, he's fighting against a lot of people who pretend that all the other athletes compete on a level field. Between genetics, economics, training resources, secret drugs and unethical (or illegal) techniques - and plain old luck - that myth is hopelessly naive and misleading.

    As I see it, this is about strength of mind and will more than about strength of body. That's what separates the real champions from the rest. The Olympics serve to remind us what is best in us. This example would touch millions of people, far, far more than someone shaving another three hundredths of a second off the 100 meter record or whatever.

    His legs were amputated. He should not be amputated from the idea he's still 100% human.

    1. Re:He's using undoped human muscles by Swizec · · Score: 1

      Whereas I agree with what you're saying, fact remains he's not 100% human ... not physically at least.

      The point of the Olympics, as far as I understand, is to use only what was naturally given to you. Genetics, whereas it can help a lot, is still natural and thus any gains you get from that address are wholly you.

      Artificial limbs are far more in the field of drugs and such than in the field of "natural human body" if you ask me. But yes, giving him chance to compete would inspire hope in many. Then again, everyone using drugs could just say "What? I can't put extra blood in my system and that guy doesn't even have to use real legs!?"

    2. Re:He's using undoped human muscles by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The short counterpoint to your post is that we know running isn't the most efficient way to use the muscles. Using equipment we can make humans go much faster. We can make a non-amputated man go faster than the track world record with ease on for example a bicycle. Fair? No. Using these legs? Certainly they could make him "run" faster than any other man on earth, but it wouldn't be the same sport.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:He's using undoped human muscles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. It's about both, but even more about national pride. We love a winning loser, but we don't tune in by the billions to watch stories of ghetto kids becoming CEO's.

    4. Re:He's using undoped human muscles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is not 100% human when competing with mechanical legs you idiot.

  20. While you two losers are duking it out... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'll have a Sybian installed on mine.

    1. Re:While you two losers are duking it out... by Hankapobe · · Score: 1

      I'll have a Sybian installed on mine.

      If you're a chick - who needs men!

      If you're a dude: I guess you could have any woman you want.

  21. dun nun nun nun nun.. by Mage+Powers · · Score: 1

    If they think he has an unfair advantage, why don't they get their legs amputated, too? so would you trade your legs for robotic jet legs?
    1. Re:dun nun nun nun nun.. by OECD · · Score: 1

      Remember where you are. I think it's safe to say that a *lot* of people around here would. Myself, I'm going to get a souped-up golf cart and cite Casey Martin as a precedent.

      --
      One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
    2. Re:dun nun nun nun nun.. by Lobster+Quadrille · · Score: 1

      It's a risky operation, but I think it's worth it.

      --
      "The cup is in turn designed for holding hot or cold liquids, and has an open rim and closed base." --US Patent #5425497
    3. Re:dun nun nun nun nun.. by somersault · · Score: 1

      You're talking about being able to fly! I'd seriously consider it. I'm sure you could get attachments to put over the jets to let you walk a bit too. :)

      --
      which is totally what she said
  22. sticky by cynagh0st · · Score: 1
    Is there any way to objectively determine his competitive equity with other athletes? It seems to me that they are "jurisdictionally," out of their league.

    I know the article says they considered this, but his blood doesn't need to travel to his legs to service oxygen to his muscles. Risk of ankle spraining: zero. Heighth and weight determined by length and bulk of the prosthetics. Other than not having legs he owns and defines any disadvantages he has. If something hurts he should be able to modify it. If he cant get traction he can revise the rubber contact spots.

    Why do I get the feeling that this is a result of:

    1. Lawyers preying on human emotion, empathy and sympathy.

    2. The stereotypes associated with the special Olympics.

    3.The "winning a battle to win it," for disabled people.

    1. Re:sticky by Nullav · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that you can't feel a prosthetic, which makes it that much harder to coordinate. As for your comment on traction, what do you think we wear shoes for?

      --
      I just read Slashdot for the articles.
  23. Metro Olympics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Instead of having olympic teams be defined by country, why not have each "Metropolis" compete against each other?

    Then, instead of having countries like the U.S. and China dominate everything, you would suddenly have a completely different character to every sport.

    Imagine an event where there is one contestant each from Omaha, Ongole, Osaka, Ordu, Orlando, Ottawa, Oslo, Ocala, Oued, and Oudtshoom.

    Sorta like metagovernment for the Olympics. :)

    1. Re:Metro Olympics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Open source olympics!

      Rah! Rah! Rah!

    2. Re:Metro Olympics by rossdee · · Score: 1

      If they let "Metropolis" compete in the olympics then Superman would win all the medals.

  24. turnabout is fair play. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    see that picture?

    no reason a person with two full legs couldn't bend them at the knees to use a contraption like his. Are you going to allow runners to do that, Olympic Committee?

    No? Why not?

  25. That's why he has the paralympics. by CatOne · · Score: 1

    Where he can compete with other people with disabilities and artificial limbs.

    Next thing you know. Steve Austin will be competing. And people will be having legs removed so they can compete on their 'bionic' ones. If the artificial ones prove to be faster than the natural ones, you can bet that some people will in fact go that far in the name of competition.

    1. Re:That's why he has the paralympics. by tepples · · Score: 1

      Then why do the Paralympics get hardly any airtime?

  26. Damn amputees! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    It's not enough that he gets all the primo parking spaces... now he wants to show up us able-bodied guys in the Olympics too?!? I say we gang up on him and break his legs... oh, wait...

  27. what advantage? by Yurka · · Score: 1

    His personal best is still more than a second behind the qualifying time for the Olympics.

    --
    I can assure you, the best way to get rid of dragons is to have one of your own.
    1. Re:what advantage? by krazytekn0 · · Score: 1

      But who knows how much worse his personal best would be if he had 35 pounds of lower legs to lug around too?

      --
      Not all life is cyber. Extra Income
  28. That's fine... by LordLucless · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...if they're letting regular athletes compete in the disabled categories as well. After all, what's good for the goose...

    --
    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    1. Re:That's fine... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're too scared to suffer the same outcome as Cartman had :)

    2. Re:That's fine... by bigg_nate · · Score: 1

      That's silly. Do you also think women shouldn't be allowed to compete on the PGA tour unless men are allowed to compete on the LPGA tour?

    3. Re:That's fine... by Cederic · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Sure. Why should the LPGA be allowed to discriminate on gender grounds?

    4. Re:That's fine... by bigg_nate · · Score: 1

      So, what, you want to say every athletic league must treat men and women equally? In practical terms, that means most women simply won't have the opportunity to participate in organized sports. I don't think that would be good for anyone.

    5. Re:That's fine... by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. I've played many organised sports in mixed gender teams.

      A lot of the time the women are better than me.

    6. Re:That's fine... by bigg_nate · · Score: 1
      Interesting -- that's never been my experience. I've played organized sports on mixed-gender teams, but the teams have always been balanced so that men are matched up against men and women are matched up against women. At least in my experience, if the men and women were matched up against each other, the men would dominate (with a few exceptions, of course, and only in competitive situations).

      Out of curiosity, what sports were you playing, and how competitive was the league?

    7. Re:That's fine... by Valafar · · Score: 1

      Teather ball isn't really considered a sport.

  29. inspiration v. tech by filthpickle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    the issue isn't this guy.....the issue is the precedent it sets. /. should be completely onboard with the olympic committe. In 50 years we WILL have cyborg legs....should that be allowed in the olympics?

    I want a separate olympics.......an entertain me monkey olympics.

    1. Re:inspiration v. tech by couchslug · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "In 50 years we WILL have cyborg legs....should that be allowed in the olympics?"

      Standardize all the legs and inspect them the way NASCAR does cars. Restrict those with cyborg legs to racing in their own class.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    2. Re:inspiration v. tech by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What if I have a pair of shoes that can simulate the extra springiness that were similar to these artificial "legs"? I'm sure many sports groups would disqualify me for having non-standard or unfair equipment.

      Granted, this guy isn't so good with these artificial legs that he's going to get a medal, or even qualify. But the idea that the rules that apply to an abled bodied person can be changed in a competitive sport to accommodate someone with disabilities just seems wrong.

      What next, someone running a marathon with an oxygen bottle because of a medical condition? Maybe Tee Ball at the Olympics?

      Inspirational is when someone overcomes their limitations at the Paralympics; not when someone asks the IAAF to change the rules.

    3. Re:inspiration v. tech by psychodelicacy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Absolutely. It might be inspirational to see a dyslexic child competing in a spelling bee with the aid of a spellchecker, but it's hardly the point of the competition. The point of the Olympics is to look at the extremes which the human body can achieve. Whether prosthetics are an advantage or a disadvantage is almost beside the point, which is that they go beyond the remit and the purpose of the competition.

      --
      A closed mouth gathers no foot.
    4. Re:inspiration v. tech by penguin+king · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think he has overcome his limitations at the Paralympics given he's the current champion (summary), so now he wants a crack at this. I say let him have it, if he's not already running circles around everyone I fail to see the advantage, if they allow it, they can always moderate/restrict classes later, there wouldn't be much point whilst there is only one of him to have a seperate race would there? I don't see why we shouldn't have mens races, womens races and `able amputees` races.

    5. Re:inspiration v. tech by cgdiaz · · Score: 1

      Granted, this guy isn't so good with these artificial legs that he's going to get a medal, or even qualify. Actually if I remember right the complaint was that this guy was outrunning people :)
    6. Re:inspiration v. tech by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      if he's not already running circles around everyone I fail to see the advantage,

      He's not running circles around everyone else, because the rest of his body isn't up to it.
      What if we put cybernetic legs on the current second or third place dude? Might he then be the world record holder, solely because of the artificial legs?

    7. Re:inspiration v. tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no it is not only "extremes which the human body can achieve", olympics also encourages this within fair means. although oscar personifies the spirit of endurance, being a double amputee is very very tough indeed, and runningto olympic level is also a great achievement. but, that said, he's got prosthetic legs which dont twist, which doesnt fail like real legs - it doesnt get tired, legs sometimes feel wooden even to the best athletes due to stress - all these will be missing for oscar.

      with all due respect to his disability , he has to be a one off case, whatever it is - we are getting into a grey zone which have further ramifications in the near future as technology improves.

    8. Re:inspiration v. tech by hibji · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would like to argue that olympics are not only about the human body. It is also very much about technology. Think of the skis and the fancy swim suits used in the swim competitions. Of more relevance are the spiked running shoes used by the runners. They offer a huge advantage. Sports are very much intertwined with technology. It is simply that for this athlete the line in drawn at a different point.

    9. Re:inspiration v. tech by FleaPlus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Restrict those with cyborg legs to racing in their own class.

      Sure... that's where this guy used to be competing (in the Paralympic Games). The issue is whether he should be competing in the Olympic Games "class".

    10. Re:inspiration v. tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is he running or powerbocking?

    11. Re:inspiration v. tech by Molochi · · Score: 1
      --
      "The Adobe Updater must update itself before it can check for updates. Would you like to update the Adobe Updater now?"
    12. Re:inspiration v. tech by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      Then why just for this athlete? If we're going to change the rules, shouldn't the rules be changed for all athletes?

    13. Re:inspiration v. tech by Reziac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When I was in the 9th grade, a wheelchair basketball team gave a demo at our school, then played a regular game against our team -- who were damned good for junior-high kids, in fact they'd *beaten* a pretty good *high school* junior-varsity team.

      Despite which, the wheelchair team thoroughly trounced our able-bodied team.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    14. Re:inspiration v. tech by Reziac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the line needs to be drawn at the point where something *replaces* part of the human body, rather than being *added* to it (as with skis, etc.) Also, in the case of those high-tech *additions*, everyone has exactly the same opportunity to use them. Of course, this could change -- frex, let *every* runner use spring-loaded gear! surely the same principle could be fitted to an intact leg and foot.

      Otherwise, as someone above mentioned, you lose the whole point of the Olympics: to demonstrate what the =human= body can achieve.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    15. Re:inspiration v. tech by sjbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Think of the skis and the fancy swim suits used in the swim competitions.Of more relevance are the spiked running shoes used by the runners. They offer a huge advantage. All of which are available to every competitor. This guy's prosthetic legs are performance enhancing technology that is not available or usable by any other competitor. Technology that provides an unfair or unsafe advantage can be accounted for in the rules but those rules have to be applied uniformly. Performance enhancing drugs have been ruled illegal primarily for safety reasons but also because it becomes a technological arms race defeating the whole point of fair competition. I cannot find a logical distinction between performance enhancing drugs and performance enhancing prosthetics.

      Sports are very much intertwined with technology. It is simply that for this athlete the line in drawn at a different point. Which is exactly the problem. The line CANNOT be drawn in a different place for different competitors. The rules have to be applied uniformly and fairly.
    16. Re:inspiration v. tech by kninja · · Score: 1

      you are spot on, penguin king.

      He has the world record and is simply looking for better competition. He probably won't qualify in the open 400m, but he will be allowed to compete and competition could push him to a faster personal best, which is what he wants.

      On one hand it's not setting a good precedent, but the reasons for it are probably not going to fundamentally change the sport. He's really competing against himself.

    17. Re:inspiration v. tech by mac1235 · · Score: 1

      Is this why the ancient greeks used to compete naked?

    18. Re:inspiration v. tech by SausageOfDoom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The olympics games are supposed to be about what the human body can do, not what the human body can do when given an edge - be it through steroids or bionic limbs. I think an interesting question is why is this chap the current champion at the paralympics - would he still be at the top without his special legs? I say start up a third olympics, where anything goes - let's see what the human body can do when pumped up on steroids and fitted with the finest bionics money can buy.

    19. Re:inspiration v. tech by maceilean · · Score: 2, Funny

      If he had one cyborg leg he really would be running in circles unless his meat leg could catch up.

    20. Re:inspiration v. tech by psychodelicacy · · Score: 1

      Yes, that was what I was saying - adding prosthetics to the human body makes it about something other than what the body can naturally achieve.

      --
      A closed mouth gathers no foot.
    21. Re:inspiration v. tech by bheer · · Score: 1

      The thing is, this man is quite exceptional -- he was born without fibulas in both legs, which is why his legs were amputated when he was 11 months old.

      By any standard of fairness, he has not sought out his 'blades' as a performance-enhancement alternative to perfectly good legs. What this decision means is that he will no longer be 'ghettoized' and forced to participate in only the Paralympics.

      Far from being a can of worms in terms of technology creeping into the games, this is a landmark for those who care about the rights of the handicapped -- they are no longer "separate but equal" like pre-Civil Rights African Americans, but that they really can join the mainstream of athletic society.

    22. Re:inspiration v. tech by psychodelicacy · · Score: 1

      I think they probably had more... how shall I say it?... aesthetic reasons for that? :)

      But certainly in competitions like swimming, where there's been controversy over different types of costume and the advantage they confer, it would probably make the competition more fair if we could overcome modern prudishness and insist that competitors are naked.

      --
      A closed mouth gathers no foot.
    23. Re:inspiration v. tech by JonathanBoyd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh please. This isn't a human rights issue; it's an issue of what a competition is about. If you're so keen for the handicapped to compete in able-bodied sports, why not the other way round? Because it wouldn't be fair, right? Well this is just applying the same criteria. Handicapped people are in no way being separated from society; everyone is being given the opportunity to compete in a competition where no-one has an advantage by virtue of having been born with or without certain bits of their body. In fact, if you're saying that a competition doesn't really count unless it involves able-bodied people, what are you saying about the value of handicapped competition and by implication the value of handicapped people?

    24. Re:inspiration v. tech by Archtech · · Score: 3, Informative

      Whatever may be true of swimming or cycling, in the case of running technology has made relatively small differences. Spiked shoes actually give very little advantage, as witness the fact that a few world-class runners have always run barefoot. Spikes give a slight edge, of course, which is why they are so popular.

      In the 1964 Olympics in Tokyo, Bob Hayes won the 100 metres in 10.06 on a soaking wet cinder track with actual holes in it, running in very heavy primitive spiked shoes. To this day, the Olympic record is 9.84 by Donovan Bailey in 1996, running on a vastly superior modern synthetic track. The difference between these two times is about six feet - not a huge improvement, even allowing for the distinct possibility that Hayes was a faster sprinter than Bailey.

      At the other extreme, Abebe Bikila won the Olympic marathon in both 1960 and 1964. The first time he ran barefoot; the second time he wore shoes. Admittedly he ran three minutes faster in 1964, but that may reflect his own improvement, stronger competition, and a faster (flatter) course. Today the top marathon runners cover the 26.2 miles 8 minutes faster than Bikila in 1964, but I don't think you could find any expert to agree that technology has anything to do with that.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    25. Re:inspiration v. tech by bheer · · Score: 1, Troll

      Replace "handicapped" with "black" above and you'll get a better perspective of what my views are.

      In the 50s, whites couldn't and wouldn't go to black schools. Black children COULDN'T (but would if they could) go to white schools, because that's where the best schools were.

      > In fact, if you're saying that a competition doesn't really count unless it involves able-bodied people

      I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that competitions like the Olympics should be open to all humans, as long as they have not flouted the rules to get an unfair advantage.

      As an aside, events like the Paralympics, or under-14s sports competitions, are not universal competitions, they are special events designed to highlight the abilities of certain groups of people. In fact the Olympics keeps this distinction for men and women, because *usually* women tend to be disadvantaged in terms of muscle mass, etc. It's not perfect, but it's a darn sight better than the old Olympic custom of not letting women participate at all. Anyway, while it's nice that handicapped folk have the option of competing in special events, wouldn't it be infinitely better to (assuming they qualified) let them compete in the actual mainstream event?

      Especially since -- athletes have been using technology to improve their performance since, well, forever. Would you disqualify an archer for wearing glasses (Archery is IIRC an Olympic event)? Would you disqualify an athlete for wearing a pacemaker implant (assuming he got it for sound medical reasons and he's fit enough to perform?) If not, what's wrong with allowing a guy born without legs to wear blades?

      All I see here is the old fear that somehow a guy with technology on his body is somehow "equal, but separate". And that's sad. It'll go away with time as people get comfortable with the technology in question (people with glasses face very little discrimination these days) but until then someone has to speak up for the rights of people for whom technological aids are a medical necessity.

    26. Re:inspiration v. tech by interstellar_donkey · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      I run a lot. Granted, I don't really do sprints that often except as an un-timed training exercise, but I can say that if you removed the 5-10lbs of weight of my lower legs and replaced them with lightweight super-springy appendages, I can say that my ability (once I got the balance down) would increase.

      As much as it's hard to tell someone with a disability that he can't do something, it's also pretty hard to tell people without disabilities that they will be competing with a person who has an unfair advantage.

      --
      The Internet is generally stupid
    27. Re:inspiration v. tech by Chutulu · · Score: 1, Insightful

      all athletes should all have the same equipment, shoes, clothes, same haircut, etc. Now that would be a fair race.

    28. Re:inspiration v. tech by Kreigaffe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, the fear is NOT that he is "equal, but seperate".

      I think you are intentionally being a troll, here.

      This sets a precedent. That being, artifical replacements to human body parts does not disqualify one from competing in the Olympics.

      The problem comes 10-20 years from now, when you have athletes willfully lopping their limbs off to get cybernetic implants all to win the gold.

      At that point, at the point where cybernetic limbs will actually outperform natural.. what's the difference between a cyberathlete and a steroid athlete? why not let THEM compete?

      Keep them seperate.

      One day, the Paralympics will be the ones with the better times, distances and scores.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    29. Re:inspiration v. tech by NekSnappa · · Score: 1

      Actually the legend is that the naked aspect started after a woman snuck into the competition.

      --
      I want to shoot the messenger!
    30. Re:inspiration v. tech by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      Should we disallow those wearing corrective lenses from competing in sharpshooting competitions? Should we disallow anyone who have had surgery to compete against those who have not? What about those athletes who eat specialized diets and work out in elevated altitudes to better train their bodies? If we really wanted to "level" the playing field there are much better ways of doing so.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    31. Re:inspiration v. tech by Bazar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      let's see what the human body can do when pumped up on steroids and fitted with the finest bionics money can buy Although such an event would be interesting, the lives that would be destroyed would be horrendous.

      To get a line position in racing, they give all the contestants a single lap, the fastest lap time getting front position

      The interesting thing is that the drivers drive their cars past their limits attempting this, after the single lap is over, the gearbox needs to be replaced because they didn't bother with things like a clutch, heavens knows how their engine is.

      But that doesn't matter to them, their budget is simply so big they can afford to throw away/repair their cars between races.

      Thats what would happen in these "anything goes" races.
      You'd have athletes who's entire career would be for 1 game. After that their bones, brains, organs would be so shot that they wouldn't be usable, and their nations would just discard them.

      Now thats just not a sport I'd want to support.
      I want to support a game where with a bit of talent and hard training, you'll be able to best the world.
      --
      To avoid criticism; Say nothing, Do nothing, Be nothing.
    32. Re:inspiration v. tech by JonathanBoyd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Replace "handicapped" with "black" above and you'll get a better perspective of what my views are.
      Replace "handicapped" with "black" and you're talking about an entirely different issue with entirely different problems. the issue here is not the equality of races/different ethnicities, but rather the level playing field that is required for fair competition.

      I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that competitions like the Olympics should be open to all humans, as long as they have not flouted the rules to get an unfair advantage.
      Which strangely enough, no-one disagrees with. Read the comments and you'll see that people have an issue with the unfair advantage that prosthetics/cybernetics provide.

      Anyway, while it's nice that handicapped folk have the option of competing in special events, wouldn't it be infinitely better to (assuming they qualified) let them compete in the actual mainstream event?
      Only if they can do so without the aid of technology. What's the difference between this case and someone 'running' a marathon in a wheelchair?

      Especially since -- athletes have been using technology to improve their performance since, well, forever. Would you disqualify an archer for wearing glasses (Archery is IIRC an Olympic event)? Would you disqualify an athlete for wearing a pacemaker implant (assuming he got it for sound medical reasons and he's fit enough to perform?)
      Glasses are an aid to an existing organ that imperfectly correct a problem without altering how vision works beyond what is possible for a normal eye. Pacemakers ensure that an existing heart beats normally, just like a regular heart.

      If not, what's wrong with allowing a guy born without legs to wear blades?
      Because they're not fixing an imperfection in an existing limb/organ without altering how it fundamentally works; they're replacing limbs and fundamentally changing how they work in a way that is not available to able-bodied people. If someone had a cybernetic eye fitted or a cybernetic heart, I'd take issue with them competing. This isn't about rights because we're not discussing people taking part in society. This is a competition which requires a level playing field and therefore precludes those with an unnatural advantage. If handicapped people want to compete, they should do so without prosthetics/cybernetics/wheelchairs/etc. To suggest otherwise is either political correctness taken to absurd extremes or would require the rules to be relaxed to a much greater extent to allow other aids, which completely changes the nature of the competition.
    33. Re:inspiration v. tech by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "You'd have athletes who's entire career would be for 1 game. After that their bones, brains, organs would be so shot that they wouldn't be usable, and their nations would just discard them."

      If done by volunteers, I'd be happy to watch it. as I would gladiatorial combat.
      There are so many humans we have no intrinsic value, so if some people wish to entertain by expending themselves in competition I have no problem with that.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    34. Re:inspiration v. tech by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      ...except the Paralympics is an "inferior" competition class. This guy is asking to be allowed
      to compete with the "real athletes". He's asking for a "promotion". It's like featherweight
      asking to take on the world heavyweight champion. It should be a no brainer that the cripple
      shouldn't be given any flack for wanting to compete with with his able bodied peers.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    35. Re:inspiration v. tech by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      It's not about the human body, it's about the human spirit.

      The question is do these alleged "enhancements" negate the human spirit. ...or are they simply 1:1 replacements for what he was born with.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    36. Re:inspiration v. tech by bheer · · Score: 1

      > I think you are intentionally being a troll, here.

      Sigh. Welcome to 21st century America, where everyone who disagrees with your point is a troll, shill or worse.

      Anyway --

      > This sets a precedent.

      That is a good thing. Brown v Board of Education set a precedent too, as did Roe v Wade. I wouldn't want people who medically need technology to survive relegated to some "special" zone. They should be able to take part in every part of life that non-handicapped people can. That includes sport, if they are good enough to qualify.

      > That being, artifical replacements to human body parts does not disqualify one from competing in the Olympics.

      Again: so we should ban athletes who wear glasses? Or (less likely now, but still) pacemakers? I find your insistence on the purity of the human body in sport somewhat troubling.

      > The problem comes 10-20 years from now, when you have athletes willfully lopping their limbs off to get cybernetic implants all to win the gold.

      That is a straw man. The regulations could clearly state that any modifications have to pass rigorous medical scrutiny -- including why they were required in the first place.

      And oh, you're essentially telling a guy born without legs that he can't be a part of normal society because of what unscrupulous athletes might do 30 years in the future? Way to go.

    37. Re:inspiration v. tech by bheer · · Score: 1

      Because they're not fixing an imperfection in an existing limb/organ without altering how it fundamentally works; they're replacing limbs and fundamentally changing how they work in a way that is not available to able-bodied people.


      If the technology that powers this guy's legs was that good, the people with bad legs (or the military) would be falling all over themselves to get them "installed".

      The truth is these blades aren't a good replacement for good human legs. It's a lot of work for this guy to even start running using these. The fact that he can do so well using what essentially is something inferior to human legs is a testament to the human spirit -- something the Olympics is fundamentally about, something which a lot of posters here forget.
    38. Re:inspiration v. tech by mpeskett · · Score: 1

      I think the complaint was that they measured his energy expenditure, and he was using less energy to move at the same speed.

      What speed they measured on I don't know, it would be distinctly less of an advantage for an actual race if he can travel incredibly efficiently at slow speeds but his top speed maxes out too low to be competitive in a sprint. Although if that was the case he could compete well in endurance running.

      Either way its only a matter of time before we have prosthetics/bionics that can be used to outperform current athletes. We could put together a whole rack of legs, each optimised for different running styles and conditions.

    39. Re:inspiration v. tech by psychodelicacy · · Score: 1

      If the Olympics were about the human spirit, my mother would be a gold medallist! Sadly, being disabled, she's unlikely to be so in reality. The prosthetics modify the human body, which is not acceptable in the Olympics, regardless of the reason for the modification or the worthiness of the person.

      --
      A closed mouth gathers no foot.
    40. Re:inspiration v. tech by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      The olympics games are supposed to be about what the human body can do, not what the human body can do when given an edge - be it through steroids or bionic limbs. What makes (springy) running shoes and clothing ok?
    41. Re:inspiration v. tech by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      Much of your argument here also applies to the use of glasses or contacts which the GP mentioned, yet you chose not to address it. So, should glasses be banned? By your argument, I would think so.

    42. Re:inspiration v. tech by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      Everyone appears to be referencing the "unfair advantage" as if it is gospel, yet nobody has offered up a citation. The current ruling overturns the IAAF ruling, which means we should take a hard look at their evidence. On the last slashdot story I didn't find the efficiency evidence provided all that convincing, so I'd like to see more. Nobody here even seems to be trying to do that though, I have yet to see anything cited. It's just assumed to be unfair.

      Also, if the advantage is unfair, then I wouldn't have a problem with limiting the devices used to make it fair, rather than an outright ban. Yet nobody here is saying that either. Why this rush to eject this runner from the sport, when all you might have to do is tweak the parameters a bit? It seems like a lot of people aren't content with just a fair race, they want this individual out of the sport.

    43. Re:inspiration v. tech by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      All of which are available to every competitor. This guy's prosthetic legs are performance enhancing technology that is not available or usable by any other competitor. Sure they are, and athlete can just amputate his feet and he can use them too. Yet no athlete seems to want to do this -- even in a sport where the competitors will take drugs they know could cause serious medical complications if they think they can get away with it. If it was such an advantage, people would already be doing it. They aren't.

      Technology that provides an unfair or unsafe advantage can be accounted for in the rules but those rules have to be applied uniformly. Ok, then please cite the research showing undeniably that a runner with missing feet and these particular blades is better than a normal runner. Stop simply assuming it's the case.

      Performance enhancing drugs have been ruled illegal primarily for safety reasons but also because it becomes a technological arms race defeating the whole point of fair competition. I cannot find a logical distinction between performance enhancing drugs and performance enhancing prosthetics. Yet, athletes are allowed to take drugs for medical conditions. That can even include drugs which a normal healthy athlete would be disqualified for using. This usually involves getting a specific exception. As you said, "those rules have to be applied uniformly", so why don't we do that? The only question left is whether this individual with his particular setup has an unfair advantage. If its not fair, we adjust it to make it fair, rather than an outright ban. This is no different than setting an allowed dosage for a normal athlete with some serious medical problem. So, please do not treat this differently.

      Which is exactly the problem. The line CANNOT be drawn in a different place for different competitors. The rules have to be applied uniformly and fairly. Really? Do they all use the same shoes, clothes, and have the same training technology available to them? It's a complicated line, but its a fixed line; it just has extra dimensions you either don't approve of or didn't know of. Those dimensions are there and they've been there for some time. Look up the story of any athlete coming back after cancer and you'll probably see what I'm talking about.
    44. Re:inspiration v. tech by e4g4 · · Score: 1

      I completely agree - especially for the Winter Olympics :P

      --
      The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
    45. Re:inspiration v. tech by JonathanBoyd · · Score: 1

      If the technology that powers this guy's legs was that good, the people with bad legs (or the military) would be falling all over themselves to get them "installed".

      You're ignoring the big picture here. The debate isn't about any one individual, it's about the precedent the ruling sets for the future and the principles of fair competition.

      The truth is these blades aren't a good replacement for good human legs.

      No-one is saying they are as far as I've seen; what people are saying is that allowing the use of prosthetics precludes the possibility of a level playing field which is required for fair competition.

      The fact that he can do so well using what essentially is something inferior to human legs is a testament to the human spirit -- something the Olympics is fundamentally about, something which a lot of posters here forget.

      No, what people are forgetting is that for a competition to have value, it must be fair. You're getting caught up in the romance of the situation.

    46. Re:inspiration v. tech by JonathanBoyd · · Score: 1

      Who has asked for him to be drummed out of sport? I doubt anyone thinks he should stop competing in the way he has been for the last few years. You're also ignoring the many posts which have pointed out that the principles of fair play are the motivating factor for objections, rather than the particulars of this case.

    47. Re:inspiration v. tech by JonathanBoyd · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't want people who medically need technology to survive relegated to some "special" zone.

      Why do you view the Special Olympics as a relegation? You're effectively accusing people of bigotry here, yet you only see value in competition when it involves able-bodied people.

      They should be able to take part in every part of life that non-handicapped people can. That includes sport, if they are good enough to qualify.

      Since when are handicapped people not able to compete in sport? Or other areas of society for that matter? Way to over-dramatise the situation.

      I find your insistence on the purity of the human body in sport somewhat troubling.

      Who insisted that wheelchair basketball isn't a sport or that running with prosthetics isn't really athletics? No-one did; rather they insisted that people compete on a level playing field: non-prosthetic against non-prosthetic and prosthetic against prosthetic. For someone who likes to use the word strawman...

      And oh, you're essentially telling a guy born without legs that he can't be a part of normal society because of what unscrupulous athletes might do 30 years in the future? Way to go.

      You're essentially saying that unless you take part in the able-bodied Olympics you're not a part of normal society? way to go.

    48. Re:inspiration v. tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it isn't. This man has an advantage: a lighter body and springy leg attachment. Unless he wants to take his leg attachments off and race on his nubs, he shouldn't be allowed into the Olympics.

    49. Re:inspiration v. tech by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      They don't require damaging and dangerous modifications to the body like replacing your legs with prosthetics or pumping yourself full of steroids.

      But I'd be completely fine with watching nude olympics. Although the idiots watching only female competitions and complaining about the "gayness" of mens wrestling would bother me.

    50. Re:inspiration v. tech by wild_berry · · Score: 1

      How much of that win was the junior-high kids not knowing how to tackle/block and gather rebounds when playing against a wheelchair basketball team?

    51. Re:inspiration v. tech by Pikoro · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it's just me, or does the term "double amputee" mean he WAS born with legs, but had them chopped off at a later point in life.

      Seem like a significant difference.

      --
      "Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
    52. Re:inspiration v. tech by JonathanBoyd · · Score: 1

      How so? No-one is born with metal/plastic/whatever limbs. These are artificial replacements that function in a different manner to the human body ergo he is not competing in the same way as other athletes.

    53. Re:inspiration v. tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "inspect them the way NASCAR does cars."

      Holy hell. Ask a person who follows NASCAR a bit, they'll tell you most of the equipment rules stuff is utter CRAP.

      When Dodge re-entered NASCAR a few years back, the cars were legal and really dominant. What did NASCAR do? They penalized the hell out of the Dodges. During the season.

      They seemed to have done this with Toyota when they got in NASCAR last year or so, but I stopped following NASCAR much at all after the Dodge crap. I still read stories though about their inventive rules interpretation though since I follow other sports.

      To me, NASCAR is worse than what Lemans did to Wankel engines (rotary engines i.e. Mazda RX series). Or open wheel racing did to Dana Kirkpatrick(sp) giving her a weight penalty (females are "lighter").

      Oh, btw, I think sneakers and shoes are against the Olympic rules. While I agree athletes should be clothed, all this debate re equipment would be mute. Run on your own shoeless feet. Pole jump with standard poles made from a certain wood supplied by the Olympic committee.

    54. Re:inspiration v. tech by sjbe · · Score: 1

      Sure they are, and athlete can just amputate his feet and he can use them too. That's a absurd argument and it misses the point completely. No reasonable person is going to cut off their feet. Even if they did, the fact still remains that they would have to use performance enhancing technology, no different than performance enhancing drugs to compensate for their new disability.

      Yet, athletes are allowed to take drugs for medical conditions. Sometimes if doing so is reasonable and demonstrably does not affect performance. It's possible to prove how much a drug affects performance. There is no (reasonable) way to evaluate how much this guys prosthetics affect his performance because you cannot separate his performance without them. Without them he can't walk. What IS absolutely clear is that they DO enhance his performance significantly. Without that separability they cannot be proven to be a fair competition device. If you can't prove it is fair it should not be allowed.

      Athletes have to be VERY careful about what drugs they take. Some over the counter cold remedies will result in a positive drug test if used. In my chosen sport using an inhaler for asthma is grounds for disqualification. It's tough but it's fair.

      Really? Do they all use the same shoes, clothes, and have the same training technology available to them? Within reasonable limits, yes they do have access to essentially the same technology in pretty much any sport. Even in technology heavy sports like bicycling all the competitors have access to practically the same gear if they wish to use it. And when a piece of gear is determined to be unsafe or unfair for some reason, most sporting bodies will outlaw its use.
    55. Re:inspiration v. tech by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I don't know, I'm not a basketball expert (or even fan). But since our guys did beat a J.V. team that was a year older (exhibition game), and our guys were also the State Champs at the JH level, they can't have been too bad! :)

      But I do recall one decided advantage the wheelchair guys had: they could UNIFORMLY sink baskets from across the mid-court line. Propelling unpowered chairs solely with their own muscles had turned their arms into Superman appendages.

      Also, when they got really moving, they could sometimes outrun our guys, who very rapidly decided it was NOT necessary to be "nice" to the "disabled" team!!

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    56. Re:inspiration v. tech by Reziac · · Score: 1

      And what qualifies as an "artificial replacement"?
      I can see this being extended far beyond the obvious implications of cybernetics. Frex, what about a glucose pump, to ensure that your muscles never get tired? What about an oxygen fitting, to ensure than you never run short of breath? In this case, we have artificial feet, which never get tired -- what's the difference??

      Some years ago I saw a TV special on another guy with these spring-loaded artificial limbs. He could outrun an able-bodied person, with these huge boingy strides. I immediately wished for the same tech in footgear for the intact limb, which frankly shouldn't be too hard to develop -- rather, it surprises me that it hasn't been done yet; it would be VERY marketable to kids! Doesn't every kid wish for a pair of Seven-League Boots? :)

      At any rate, if this goes ahead, it will prove to me that the Olympics, which have already long since devolved into a commercial circus, have now descended to the basest depths of Political Correctness.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    57. Re:inspiration v. tech by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I agree... level playing field is necessary here. Otherwise, you might as well declare everyone winners and get it over with.

      Prosthetics cover a lot of different ground, and will continue to improve as science marches onward. Eventually they will *routinely* outperform many natural body functions. Should today's precedent apply then? if not, where do you draw the line? (as I said above, when a natural part is replaced seems a good point.)

      And how is this different from weight classes in boxing? Or should we let heavyweights and bantamweights compete with each other?? No, of course not -- we start by segregating into classes of approximately equal potential, here by the simple method of body mass.

      I see no difference between this, and segregating the naturally-able-bodied from the formerly-disabled-now-cyber-bodied, and likewise segregating both from the still-disabled.

      (I can't call someone who can outrun me "disabled" with a straight face, or a good conscience for that matter.)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    58. Re:inspiration v. tech by kalirion · · Score: 1

      Are you saying modified howitzers should not be Olympic baseball pitchers? You bigot....

    59. Re:inspiration v. tech by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Damn, I never thought of that one... I was still toting around that stupid meatbased arm!!

      Seriously, that's another limb that could conceivably use a spring-loaded or motor-driven replacement. Imagine a baseball coming at you at 300mph. Doesn't matter if it's a ball or a strike, you ain't gonna be anywhere NEAR that plate when it goes past, at least not if you have a shred of self-preservation instinct.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  30. run with what ya brung. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that's the only way to be fair.

  31. Springlike limb != springlike limb by tepples · · Score: 1

    The spring in a natural human ankle is not nearly as efficient as the spring in a roo's ankle or the spring in this athlete's ankle.

    1. Re:Springlike limb != springlike limb by kcelery · · Score: 1

      I think you mean this :http://www.abyes.com/powerisers.htm

      If this guy outruns the others, other athletes will ask for a
      poweriser instead of a pair of running shoes.

    2. Re:Springlike limb != springlike limb by kcelery · · Score: 1
  32. It should be simple by secondbase · · Score: 1
    If other athletes can compete using the same springy devices strapped to their calves, then this should be allowed, otherwise not.

    If this truly is at best neutral, or a disadvantage for this person, then there's no reason not to allow anyone who desires to put on a gadget of this sort, and use them instead of sneakers.

    I believe the outcome would show that there's a significant advantage.

  33. Specialized limbs not fair. by uncqual · · Score: 1

    This seems like a very bad precedent.

    Now, or in the near future, scientists and engineers may well be able to build an artificial limb with better performance characteristics than a natural limb. This is especially true in the case of a specialized application -- for example, sprinting in a straight line on a level surface for 100 meters as opposed to a somewhat more general application like basketball with more varied forces and requirements.

    To determine if each such limb gives an "unfair" advantage to an athlete will move sports competition from the realm of the field almost entirely into the realm of the lab and courtroom. The decisions from such cases are not going to be widely accepted and will be very controversial. Neither of these will be "good" for the sport.

    It's likely that some people can't imagine an amputee competing effectively with the current generation of performance enhancing limbs so are comfortable with this particular case. However, I suspect that the response would be somewhat different if/when artificial limb development matures to the point that all the world sprinting records are held by a handful of amputees who all use performance enhancing limbs. (Since this is /., I must bring up the vision of the patents for the design of the limbs being owned by IP firms who grant the right to use the limbs in exchange for large cut of the endorsement deals the "enhanced" athletes land.) Once someone with such limbs begins setting records, the protests will be loud and they will either be banned or a new category of records ("Unenhanced Athletes") for those without assists and no one will care about the "Enhanced Athlete" records -- which takes us back to where we are now with separate records for disabled vs. non-disabled athletes. This will be a cruel trick on those amputees who worked hard thinking they could aspire to "real" world records.

    From an "fairness" standpoint, it seems unfair to allow artificial limbs in sports such as running. The unenhanced athlete can't swap from her "100 meter" legs to her "400 meter" legs between races. The unenhanced athlete can't simply swap in a new leg when she damages one. The unenhanced athlete can't pick the "cold weather" legs vs. the "warm weather" legs depending on the weather at the meet. The unenhanced athlete can't shed the parts of her natural legs which are not needed (and in the way) for short sprints but useful for everyday things like walking on sloped surfaces or climbing stairs.

    Perhaps we will need a sort of "Turing Test" before accepting enhanced limbs in general competition -- they must be indistinguishable from natural limbs to a skilled tester.

    --
    Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
  34. Re:ok by Dr.+Eggman · · Score: 1

    First, there is a cycling category in racing games so I would find bicycling in the 400-meter little more than a hilarious scheduling error.

    Second, chemical doping of atheletes once was an accepted practice (The 1904 games marathon winner,Thomas Hicks, was using strychnine.) It was banned not because it gave an unfair advantage, but instead because it put the athelete's health at risk.

    Finally, I still fail to see any real proof that Mr. Pistorius' entry into the 400-meter would be unfair. The closest I have seen to a video like the one you describe, in which he starts slow and picks up at the end, would be this one. And even in this one, the race was not even long enough for this unproven advantage to make a winning difference. My point about friendly competition was an argument against the original ruling, which I still regard as little more than a poorly founded bias against the sprinter. That is to say it is not a friendly competition that rules against a participant on this shaky basis; as this successful appeal apparently concurs.

    --
    Demented But Determined.
  35. Oh well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sometimes I'm like, I saw this earlier today and there was a reason I didn't submit this story...

    Oh well :(

  36. Scientific experts for hire by Hans+Lehmann · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Interesting article on Hugh Herr, a scientist and also a double amputee, and how his opinions may have changed once he was an expert paid witness. http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/2008/05/how-much-does-it-cost-to-buy-scientific.html

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    1. Re:Scientific experts for hire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      good read, thanks

  37. The guy should run long distances by heteromonomer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just watch a video of him running. Considering how the guy starts off slow and gradually gains amazing advantage (enough to overtake several people in a short time) he should compete in longer distances like 5km. Or even a marathon (may be he'll beat the world record).

    1. Re:The guy should run long distances by Goliath · · Score: 1

      The problem with the longer events is that guys on the cheetahs tend to fall down a lot more than guys running on normal legs. The longer the race, the more likely a fall is.

      What I'm not sure about is why he's not attempting the 800 meters. He's flying past guys in the last part of the 400. Why not the longer distance? Surely the falls aren't the issue there?

  38. a big stretch by globaljustin · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    please mod parent down...seriously

    "it's not too much of a stretch" is his thesis, supported by the fact that a *few* pro baseball players had Tommy John's surgery before it was medically necessary.

    These two things are not analogous in any current context. First of all, the amputee runner hasn't qualified for the olympics yet (needs to shave of 1 second off his personal best which is an eternity in sprinting), let alone accomplished a feat that would warrant any sort of envy from the medal contenders.

    Second, this is not analogous b/c the MLB pitchers who were getting Tommy JOhn's surgery were most likely going to need it eventually due to ligament strain already present. They just got it earlier than what some doctors would have recommended. Parent is talking about CUTTING OFF THEIR LEGS. Big difference.

    parent is not flaming...but he is totally raping logic to get attention. Low level troll I'd say...no offense fleaplus...but c'mon

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:a big stretch by FleaPlus · · Score: 4, Informative
      Um... sorry to offend? I admittedly don't know much about the surgery and its use, but this NY Times article had some more interesting tidbits:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/20/sports/baseball/20surgery.html

      The procedure is commonly known as Tommy John surgery, named after the former major league pitcher on whom it was first performed in 1974. The surgery has become so reliable, with a success rate of 80 to 85 percent, that it has prolonged the careers of hundreds of major leaguers. About one in seven pitchers in the major leagues this season has had the surgery.

      Yet, several leading orthopedists say there are some troubling aspects to the procedure. First, it is becoming more commonplace among teenage pitchers who are injuring their arms through overuse at what surgeons call an alarming rate.

      Second, the surgery's reliability has spawned misconceptions that a healthy arm can be enlivened by the surgery and that the procedure will increase an injured pitcher's velocity, making him better than ever.

      The success of the surgery, and the resulting myths, are prompting young pitchers with marginal injuries, or overly optimistic assessments of their talent, to push for Tommy John surgery when they might not have in the past, doctors said.

      Dr. Petty mentioned one patient, a minor leaguer whose elbow injury did not appear to warrant surgery, who later trumped up his symptoms and had the procedure performed by another physician. ... ... Some parents and young pitchers, hoping for college scholarships or multimillion-dollar professional contracts, misguidedly view the surgery as a performance-enhancement technique instead of a last-resort corrective procedure, said Matt Poe, a speed and strength coach in Nashville. ... ... Yet that appears to be a growing, if mistaken, notion. Dr. Petty and Poe, the strength coach, polled high school and college players with healthy arms in Nashville last month, asking if they believed that Tommy John surgery would allow them to throw the ball faster. Nine of the 46 respondents answered yes.

      One of them was Jeff Hughes, 18, who will pitch at Austin Peay State University beginning this fall. Nick Hiter, who has coached Hughes, said the pitcher's father, Pete Hughes, once asked him: " 'What about that Tommy John surgery? I hear it makes you throw harder. If it works, we'd consider it.' "
    2. Re:a big stretch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My brother pitched sidearm in highschool which, I am told, is easier on the shoulder but worse on the elbow. He had very serious pain and he went ahead and got the tommy john surgery. His arm was paralyzed for the next 9 months or so. They had his hand in something that looked like a mouse trap to make sure it wouldn't "claw up".

      From what I understand, they had to move his ulnar nerve, the "funny bone" nerve, and it "reacted poorly". Eventually his feeling and mobility came back and his arm functions well. Obviously he did not play college ball. He was just happy he could continue studying to be a dentist. Had his arm remained paralyzed it's not like he could have attached a third, mechanical one. (Granted, if that were possible I'd have told him to go for it. Because god knows the dentist isn't scary enough without an extra "robocop" arm.)

      But yeah, the tommy john is a surgery, and surgeries are always a risk. Even if it were "performance enhancing", it wouldn't be something you should do without a need.

  39. I don't understand the outrage by computerman413 · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure how people can complain about him getting an advantage. The summary states that he's currently too slow to even qualify.

    1. Re:I don't understand the outrage by maxume · · Score: 1

      A person with a given genetic profile, at a given level of fitness, will have a maximum biomechanical efficiency. His is higher than non-amputees.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  40. Running Stilts by scrib · · Score: 1

    I have no idea if those artificial legs are an advantage or disadvantage, and I'm not sure it's relevant. He is differently abled. Where does the line get drawn? Can a specially designed prosthetic arm be used for javelin or shot-put? If he won a race, would there forever be an asterisks by his name? In a competitive world that considers using your own previously-drawn red blood cells as "doping," how can this be considered "fair?"

    Could a "normal" marathoner use running stilts? I doubt anyone, anywhere, would accept that. How are these prosthetics different? How much length could he add to his stride before it would break the rules?

    Are performance "modifiers" allowed or not?

    This puts a different twist on the LZR Swimsuit Controversy. When use of a specialized, passive fabric causes a stir and calls of "technological doping" there have to be serious questions about the use of entirely artificial limbs.

    --
    Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
    1. Re:Running Stilts by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      It's always a difficult one. We allow runners to have spiked shoes. The rules for permitted cycles in cycle races have changed from time to time. An olympic archer will typical use a bow that costs well over $1000, and there must be some advantage to them for them to be worth paying so much.

      But, at least with most of these there's nothing (except cost) stopping other athletes from using these. With a prosthetic leg, you'd need to have your legs amputated.

  41. Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So in just a years time, the only thing we will be left with is the precedent that allows cyborgs in the Olympics. Actually the more immediate and interesting question is how do they justify this in the face of their ban on performance enhancing drugs? Cold and heartless maybe but I cannot see a logical difference between performance enhancing legs (and they ARE unquestionably performance enhancing) and performance enhancing drugs. Forget cyborgs 50 years from now, there is a double standard now because of this ruling.

    Look, I wasn't born with legs that can run at Olympic sprinter speeds either. Why should this guy get a free pass when I don't just because he was born with a birth defect? Envy? Maybe (probably) but I was a pretty good athlete many moons ago (yes a few of us are here on Slashdot... save your insults) and I would have liked a shot at the Olympics too. While he's not cheating (I greatly admire what he's accomplished) I think there is a double standard here. Most of us are not born with the ability to be Olympic athletes. That's supposedly the entire point. Perhaps not anymore?
    1. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by HybridJeff · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, if you really wanted too you could et your legs chopped off and attach a pair of cheetas instead.

    2. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by sjbe · · Score: 1

      Well, if you really wanted too you could et your legs chopped off and attach a pair of cheetas instead. Not really. I'm built for other sports. I'm an ok runner but even with prosthetics I likely wouldn't be fast enough for Olympic competition. How about I just ride a bike instead? After all, what's the difference between one performance enhancer and another?
    3. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by Strange+Ranger · · Score: 1

      Mod up. Perfectly said.

      --

      Operator, give me the number for 911!
    4. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by Reziac · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And how long is it before some otherwise-healthy person has their legs amputated so they too can be a spring-loaded sprinter, because they feel that will give them that final edge they need to make the Olympics?

      Don't think it won't happen. Obsessed athletes are among the absolute worst for ignoring long-term consequences in favour of short-term goals.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    5. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by Archtech · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, if you really wanted too you could et your legs chopped off and attach a pair of cheetas instead. I've seen a lot people making that suggestion in the various discussions of this issue. It's very disingenuous, because even for the most fanatical competitor there is a lot more to life than sport. Nobody would make such an extreme sacrifice (voluntarily, at least) just to win a gold medal or set a world record. The obvious pain, suffering, and disadvantages of being legless far outweigh any possible sporting advantage.

      But this suggestion goes right to the heart of the controversy. The implication, it seems to me, is that Pistorius has suffered terribly (right), and is at a great disadvantage (right); moreover, he has struggled nobly (right). Therefore, some people argue, he deserves to get whatever he wants; and if that is to run in the Olympics, so be it.

      I suspect that people who argue this way don't take the Olympics very seriously. After all, it's just a lot of people playing silly games, isn't it? Besides, many of us nowadays disapprove morally of competition, because most of the competitors must lose. It's often urged how unfair this is, which is why school events are often arranged so that everyone gets prizes. After all, aren't we all very special?

      This is a very clear instance of the legal dictum that "hard cases make bad law". Pistorius is extremely admirable, and what's more we would very much like to do something to help him. Letting him into the Olympics is quick, and easy, and makes us glow with moral righteousness. The only downside is that it pretty much destroys the integrity of the Olympic Games.
      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    6. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      And I honestly thought the Olympic committee was handling this extremely fairly up until this point.

      They had a university's athletic department's research center do a massive amount of analysis to determine whether his artificial legs give him a mechanic advantage over the other runners. The answer was yes.

      If he came back and someone made artificial legs that put him within a reasonable margin of error of what the other athletes have to work with, I'd say sure, let him run.

    7. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      No, this is about whether or not the individual has some sort of unfair advantage.

      In reality he actually has a considerable handicap.

      Perhaps it's time to draft a real standard on the matter and not just treat the situation in a childish simpleminded fashion.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    8. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by Archtech · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry if this is too hard for you to understand, but it's a *shade* more complicated.

      He has BOTH a considerable handicap AND an unfair advantage. And after all, doesn't the poor dear deserve the benefit of the doubt?

      Woolly-minded emotional people think they "probably more or less" cancel out.

      Those with the ability to think clearly can see that, if one disabled person is allowed to compete using artificial aids, an arbitrary number of others will in future. Among them, there may well be some world-class athletes who, with prosthetics, will easily beat all "normally abled" athletes. And that will be the end of the Olympics as a fair sporting competition.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    9. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by cellocgw · · Score: 1

      Well, if you really wanted too you could et your legs chopped off and attach a pair of cheetas instead.
      I've seen a lot people making that suggestion in the various discussions of this issue. It's very disingenuous, because even for the most fanatical competitor there is a lot more to life than sport. Nobody would make such an extreme sacrifice (voluntarily, at least) just to win a gold medal or set a world record.

      I believe the historical record disagrees with you. I recall some NFL player w/ a badly broken finger who went right back on the line the following week. He knew going in that continuing to play meant the finger would never heal, and given he was a decent sax player, this meant giving up part of his life.
      Or Brett Hull who finished the Stanley Cups one year w/ a screwed up knee (or ankle, I forget). He could have ended his career by doing so, but chose to go for the moment.
      There are lots more such incidents out there.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    10. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by sjbe · · Score: 1

      If he came back and someone made artificial legs that put him within a reasonable margin of error of what the other athletes have to work with, I'd say sure, let him run. So when do I get my artificial enhancements? My legs aren't built to run at Olympic speed (I blame my parents) so why does he get special treatment and I don't? Aside from legality, this is no different than using performance enhancing drugs. His legs ARE a performance enhancement. Without them he, like 99.9999% of people out there including myself, could not qualify for the Olympics. I admire his accomplishments but having a handicap should not get you a special pass to the Olympics.
    11. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by SnowZero · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've seen a lot people making that suggestion in the various discussions of this issue. It's very disingenuous, because even for the most fanatical competitor there is a lot more to life than sport. Nobody would make such an extreme sacrifice (voluntarily, at least) just to win a gold medal or set a world record. Olympians are not normal people. They are people who really will sacrifice their entire childhood and early adulthood to a single-minded pursuit of a sport, everything else be damned (at least for the most competitive sports). Read books about their lives, or watch some documentaries; The same sort of story repeats, and its both astoundingly brave and tragic at the same time.

      In light of that, there are a reasonable fraction of athletes who would willingly sacrifice their future too. Most performance enhancing drugs have very serious negative consequences down the road, and yet you see athletes at almost every level now who willingly make that trade whenever they think they can get away with it. There was an anonymous study once of Olympic hopefuls which asked if they would take a drug if they knew it would guarantee a gold medal, was undetectable, but would kill them in ten years. I can no longer find the reference, but almost unbelievably, a nontrivial fraction of the athletes said they would take the drug.

      I suspect that people who argue this way don't take the Olympics very seriously. After all, it's just a lot of people playing silly games, isn't it? Besides, many of us nowadays disapprove morally of competition, because most of the competitors must lose. It's often urged how unfair this is, which is why school events are often arranged so that everyone gets prizes. After all, aren't we all very special? No, I just think its fine to adjust things until they are deemed fair. A athlete cancer patient can get all the help they need to get them back to normal, and that's fair as far as I'm concerned. Athletes routinely get exceptions for drugs to treat serious medical conditions, even using drugs that would otherwise be banned. A lot of thought goes into the allowances for exceptions, and they are difficult to get. However its a defined process, and I think the same thing should apply here (and from the looks of it, that's happening).

      The only downside is that it pretty much destroys the integrity of the Olympic Games. In any competition, loss of integrity is the norm, and the controlling body must constantly struggle to keep it. It's not something to be lost, it is something already lost that we must try to gain and keep with constant maintenance. Looking at exceptional cases on top of the already large burden isn't really that much additional work.
    12. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry if this is too hard for you to understand, but it's a *shade* more complicated. He has BOTH a considerable handicap AND an unfair advantage. And after all, doesn't the poor dear deserve the benefit of the doubt?

      Woolly-minded emotional people think they "probably more or less" cancel out. Scientific minded people think we should measure it and see if it cancels out, to the best of our current scientific ability.

      Those with the ability to think clearly can see that, if one disabled person is allowed to compete using artificial aids, an arbitrary number of others will in future. Among them, there may well be some world-class athletes who, with prosthetics, will easily beat all "normally abled" athletes. Only if those people have the ability to think but not to calculate. If it can be measured, we can figure out how to make it fair.
    13. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      If it can be measured, we can figure out how to make it fair. And I'd like to add: If we can't measure it, we don't have a valid basis to call it unfair. So, lets get on with the science and leave this tired ethical debate.
    14. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by kiddygrinder · · Score: 1

      i visualized a guy with living cheetahs instead of feet then. good work.

      --
      This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
    15. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by Archtech · · Score: 1

      In any competition, loss of integrity is the norm... What a sad reflection on what we call "sport" nowadays. Increasingly, it's just another octopus arm of the vast entertainment industry. Or, to put it another way, our modern equivalent of the "circuses" in the Roman empire's prescription of "bread and circuses" to keep the masses docile.

      Odd as it may seem to you, I remember a time and place when integrity was the very heart and soul of sport. Indeed, in a sense it was its main purpose.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    16. Re:Performance enhancing - legs vs drugs by sjbe · · Score: 1

      And I'd like to add: If we can't measure it, we don't have a valid basis to call it unfair. Nor do we have a basis to call it fair. So where does that leave us? If you can't prove it is fair but it clearly enhances performance (and these prosthetics *clearly* enhance performance) it should not be allowed. There is no way I can think of to prove that his legs do not provide an unfair advantage.
  42. do you hear yourself? by circletimessquare · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    you are flat out admitting that the competition is between unequal forms in your last paragraph

    and lets forget fairness for a moment, even though i can't fucking believe you actually think chemical doping is banned just because of health!

    just focus on MEANING right now

    the MEANING of the olympics

    your pov basically lessens the meaning of the olympics, it doesn't increase it

    why don't we have a guy on a horse, a guy on a jet engine and a a guy on a skateboard? hey! its just about the spirit of friendly competition! hey, why even have an olympics competition? competition is too unfriendly, too stressful, too much grunting. people might even cry or get hurt. so just have a big party for fat people from all the nations!

    stop, just stop. you're over the edge

    the competition must be level and fair, then it becomes friendly, interesting to watch, and meaningful as to the pursuit of international appreciation

    your attitude is just sort of this loosey goosey empty feel good bullshit that is probably more appropriate for the special olympics or self-esteem building exercises in kindergarten classes. everyone gets a gold star! competition hurts feelings!

    GROAN

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:do you hear yourself? by Dr.+Eggman · · Score: 1

      I think you still are missing my point. It is my assertion that his participation is NOT unfair to the other athlete. I can't seem to figure out where you get this nonsense about me believing that the olympics are some feel good, everyone wins event. My think that there is an unfounded belief that his participation is somehow a detriment to the games, and I think it is in the attempts to justify these beliefs are the real spirit is lost. That a sprinter with no real proven advantage over other athletes is not allowed to compete, stops it from being a friendly competition and marks its departure into something else entirely. My point of view holds nothing to justify allowing jets or skateboards, it is about preventing legitamite atheletes from participating and how it runs contrary to the spirit of the games.

      --
      Demented But Determined.
  43. Material Fatigue by sprintkayak · · Score: 1

    You sure? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material) "In materials science, fatigue is the progressive and localized structural damage that occurs when a material is subjected to cyclic loading. The maximum stress values are less than the ultimate tensile stress limit, and may be below the yield stress limit of the material."

  44. It's not discimination by sjbe · · Score: 1

    He does not get a big advantage over other athletes Ã" he has had huge hurdles to overcome (balance for one). Why not let him compete in the Olympics? The Olympics is supposed to take the best guy Ã" and not discriminate against him because he is disabled. I wasn't born with legs fast enough to be an Olympic sprinter either. Why are you discriminating against me?

    For the sarcastically impaired, most of us aren't physically gifted enough to be Olympic athletes. That's the WHOLE FLIPPIN' POINT.
  45. A wrestling parallel by zarathud · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A friend of mine wrestled in high school and likes to tell the story about the toughest match he ever had. His opponent was an amputee: one arm missing. This gave him several advantages.
        - his weight class was effectively lowered
        - many moves would became ineffective against him (you can't grab an arm if it isn't there).
        - years of living with one arm had made that arm very, very strong. This combined with the weight class issue meant that his arm was generally absurdly stronger that his opponent's.
        - surprise. Most folks had no experience wrestling a one-armed opponent and were not prepared. It changed the game.

    Of course, there were also disadvantages. Many moves require two arms, and his armless side was a zone he could not reach into. My friend was able to capitalize on this, attacking from the armless side. In the end, my friend won, but not easily.

    All this without prosthetics even.

    Do I think this guy and an unfair advantage? Well no. But it is not an easy situation to analyze.

    1. Re:A wrestling parallel by Flammon · · Score: 1

      Totally different. No man made parts were attached to his body to compensate for the missing arm. I would let Pistorius run without his prosthetics.

  46. Precedents. by RonTheHurler · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There was a guy, back in the 1930s or so (i think) who was an amputee. He had only one leg, and without any prosthetics, he qualified for the olympics, competing against two-legged people and scoring well enough that he could have been a contender for the gold. His sport- the high jump. I'm not making this up.

    Unfortunately, he was disqualified as well. His unfair advantage- less weight to get over the bar, and fewer muscles requiring oxygen.

    Times and public sentiment were different then. I'd bet that today he'd be allowed to compete. Ironic that we had a "crippled" president, but a one-legged man wasn't allowed to be an olympian. But imagine a presidential candidate in a wheelchair today...

    1. Re:Precedents. by tirerim · · Score: 1

      Roosevelt never appeared in public in a wheelchair. He used leg braces and a cane to walk short distances (by swiveling his torso), and he had aides to help support him while he was speaking. The truth about his paralysis didn't become public until after his death. And he was probably right, people wouldn't have accepted a presidential candidate in a wheelchair back then any more than they would today.

    2. Re:Precedents. by RonTheHurler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All that is true, but he (Roosevelt) could not have gotten away with hiding his condition without the help and support of the mass media. ALL of the mass media.

      Granted, the mass media was much smaller then, but there were ample photographs of Roosevelt in his wheelchair. The newspapers decided not to publish them. All the newspapers.

      It wasn't a conspiracy, that's just the way things were. It would have been considered rude and disrespectful to point out a man's frailties. This same attitude contributed to the disqualification of the one-legged high jumper in the olympics. It was a blatant flaunting of a disability, regardless of the fact that he could still compete. It wasn't "humble" in a time when humility was more important than being "cool" is today.

    3. Re:Precedents. by muzicman · · Score: 1

      Charles Xaviar for President!!!

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flamebait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
  47. The Altered Olympics (TM) by PottedMeat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This guy should more fully embrace his "differences" and move forward rather than aspiring to compete with normal humans.

    That said, it's time for the new era of Altered Olympics.

    Unrestricted use of technology, implants, body mods, anything goes!

    Unrestricted drug use and doping!

    I want to see a tweaked-to-the-max behemoth of a man, who's pounded his body with "roids" for four years, doing a 1500 lb cling and jerk. (The crowds really roar when the bones snap!)

    I want to watch cyber-limbed athletes hitting their meth pipes and throwing them into the crowds before performing a stunning decathlon!

    The possibilities? Endless! The ratings? Through the roof!

    ;)

    PM

  48. Outlandish by Baggio · · Score: 1

    Next thing you know, they'll be letting folks with breasts compete...

    I'm glad that the initial ruling was overturned. Seeking out an advantage over others is competition. Other racers obviously feel threatened that an individual with a physical disability might have an unfair advantage due to his prosthetic legs. This despite the fact that as a species, we create our own obsticles called rules, and then we call it a game.

    This is a (perhaps not uniquely; I'm unsure about that) human trait that we begin with in childhood. Who didn't at one point or another play "hide and go seek?" Who didn't play the expanded the rules, called "kick the can" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_the_can to include the idea of a safe zone? As the seeker, why did you count to 100? Why wouldn't you cheat? As a prisoner, why didn't you "escape" from your cell?

    We do the same thing in our "professional" sports. There are a set of seemingly clearly defined rules that govern how we play baseball. When you are at bat, the pitcher delivers the ball over the plate, and then you swing your bat, making contact with the ball, only once, before trying to advance to the next base. When you run, your feet slip -- to overcome that problem, you wear cleets. Perhaps you can't hit as far -- to overcome that problem, you cork your bat. Hold on, they are both enhancements, which anyone can aquire, yet corking your bat is "illegal" against the arbitrary rules.

    Boxing introduces this intersting notion of a cutman. During a boxing bout, it is the cutman's responsibility to prepare their boxer between rounds by controlling bleeding, and otherwise treating cuts and swelling. Without such treatment, you can be sure that the boxer would continue to bleed, or they'd continue to swell, until they could treat their injuries. Straight from Wikipedia on the subject, "A cotton swab soaked in epinephrine is applied with pressure to decrease blood flow even more." Adrenaline. Last time I checked, adrenaline is also "performance enhancing". Its treatment in boxing is somewhat more topical, but it is nonetheless allowed since a fighter who can see and who isn't bleeding, can prolong the match.

    The point is that all our sports have aspects in one way or another that are either allowed by the rules or considered against the rules. Running, to my knowledge, does not explicitly make allowances for amputees to compete, but neither does it disallow. Like corking a bat before it was banned, we mustn't ban a runner because his limbs are slightly different. While getting prosthetic limbs will never be as widely sought as cleets, the rules must be reassessed. Each opponent seeks to "enhance" their ability; they either workout more, they get different equipment, they take steroids, they wear braces, they wear grease under their eyes, etc. This "infraction" is causing such an uproar because others certainly won't be able to use a similar enhancement... at least not in time for the Summer Games.

    --
    Time flies like an arrow;
    Fruit flies like a bananna
    1. Re:Outlandish by icegreentea · · Score: 1

      Or they can decide to ban prosthetic limbs just like doping, or at least spin it off into a separate competitive category. Something that you should know about Pistorius. He is able to run because he got his legs amputated as a child, so he still had the mental flexibility to completely relearn moving with prosthetic legs. These limbs also cost a shit load. In other words, the only way to duplicate his performance now is to chop off some 5 year old's legs and make him decide to run as a living. Serious. No one will be able to pull off a Pistorius for at least another 10 years.

    2. Re:Outlandish by evil_aar0n · · Score: 1

      I think the phrase "within reason" would apply, here. I see what you're saying - there are subjective calls in all sports. The question is, in this case, is the guy's performance with these limbs within reason? If this guy were trouncing the competition, setting inhuman records, I'd be more concerned. Since he hasn't even qualified, it seems like a tempest in a teapot.

      --
      Truth, Justice. Or the American Way.
  49. It is absolutely unfair by sjbe · · Score: 1

    It is my assertion that his participation is NOT unfair to the other athlete. Yes it is unfair because the athletes are not competing under the same conditions. It doesn't matter whether he could win the gold, he's taking another athlete's chance to even go to the Olympics. He's not the only sprinter in his country. Without his performance enhancing legs he would have zero chance to make the Olympic team. That is no different (other than legality) than someone taking performance enhancing drugs to make the team when they would otherwise lack the ability to do so.

    Going to the Olympics is an honor. It means you are one of the best in the world at your sport. If I had my place on the team taken by someone who had a mechanical performance enhancement no one else had, I'd be rightfully pissed. I feel bad for the guy but 99.9999% of the world's population isn't gifted enough to go to the Olympics either. He shouldn't get any special privileges, technological or otherwise.
  50. still a big stretch by globaljustin · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    at least you put forth some effort, that's respectable

    my original criticism still stands: cutting off your legs and getting Tommy John's surgery (even if it's REALLY early or not truly necessary) are NOT analogous.

    the article you linked to showed that:

    1. the number of tommy john's surgeries performed are increasing
    2. one doctor interviewed for the story has a piece of anecdotal evidence that some young ballplayers are exaggerating symptoms to get the surgery
    3. many coaches, parents, and players at the high school level have a misconception that Tommy John's surgery is a shortcut to good pitching

    None of these things directly contradicts my criticism of you spurious analogy. Yes, it appears there is alot of misconception and a little lying going on with regards to the surgery, but...it just does not compare in scope...lying to get ligament surgery vs. cutting off your leg to enhance athletic performance... c'mon...

    also, you didn't respond to my point about how no adapted sprinter has even come close to doing anything that an olympic hopeful would desire to emulate performance-wise.

    you seem like a reasonable person, so allow me to lay out a scenario in which your analogy would apply:

    If several sprinters with adapted apparatuses were qualifying for national and world class events, some even winning and setting records, and it continued to progress such that adapted runners were winning in, say equal numbers to non-adapted runners...then your point of "this is bad, it will cause people to cut off their legs to be able to compete" will be viable...not until then.

    _j

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:still a big stretch by FleaPlus · · Score: 1

      Ok, I think the main point of disagreement here is whether we see it as a "big stretch" or a "little stretch." I should note that when I say "little stretch," I'm being mildly flippant, and also definitely not seeing it as a short-term thing. There's no way that in the next couple of years people will be chopping off their legs. However, 10-20 years from now, as technology improves and the human body remains constant, I see this sort of thing being somewhat more believable. For the life of me I can't seem the find the poll, but I could've sworn that I saw something a month or two ago where some decent percentage of athletes said they'd be willing to undergo a procedure (the poll probably dealt with performance-enhancing drugs) that would give them olympic-quality abilities without risk of getting caught/punished if it also curtailed their lifespan (or maybe it was a substantial degredation in quality of life after a period of years).

      also, you didn't respond to my point about how no adapted sprinter has even come close to doing anything that an olympic hopeful would desire to emulate performance-wise.

      Sure, but as materials and technologies advance, do you really think this will remain the case?

      If several sprinters with adapted apparatuses were qualifying for national and world class events, some even winning and setting records, and it continued to progress such that adapted runners were winning in, say equal numbers to non-adapted runners...then your point of "this is bad, it will cause people to cut off their legs to be able to compete" will be viable...not until then.

      Sure. I should also add in the caveat that I'm mildly transhumanist, so I don't think that people altering/augmenting their bodies in strange ways is necessarily a bad thing. In any case though, it'd probably be good for the various organizations to start thinking about this potential problem well before it becomes an issue.

    2. Re:still a big stretch by servognome · · Score: 1

      ...lying to get ligament surgery vs. cutting off your leg to enhance athletic performance... c'mon...
      Driven people will go to great lengths to meet their goals. Look at girls who literally starve themselves, or reconstruct their face because of how they want to look; artists who perform/display self-mutilation to the point of risking death; and I'm sure there are many people willing to give their lives for a one way ticket and be among the first to step Mars.
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
  51. Please shut up if youre gonna repeat Nancy Regan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Drug taking IS NOT illegal because it is dangerous.

    Anabolic steroids have legal uses. I have an aunt who has been using them for a few years.

    Aspirin and similar drugs in that category kill more people than ALL illegal drugs in the US (not the war on the drugs violence).
    Water can kill you is you drink too many cases too.

    We can go on forever but my point is that most all legal medications have dangerous side effects.
    Saying that performance enhancing drugs are somehow more dangerous is only used to convince feeble minded dolts that 'all drugs are bad'.

    Eat a McDonalds every day and you'll be worse off than the guy who uses Anavar for a cycle or two.
    Anavar used to be popular drug to treat osteoporosis but because of bad publicity, NOT DANGER, Searle decided to stop production.
    Savient Labs brought it back a decade later under the name Oxandrin and is very popular because it can be use a low dosages, doenst cause gynecomastia - bitch tits- and so on.

    Savient uses it to treat alcoholic hepatitis, Turner's syndrome, HIV weight loss caused by HIV and a few other diseases.

    IT IS NOT LIQUID EVIL.
    Its probably is safer to use tahn the thing you pop to make your weiner go up.

    So go spread your WOD FUD elsewhere,

  52. That point is long lsot by aepervius · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That point was long lost when the artificial chemical enhancement took over to push the limit of what the human body can achieve.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  53. fair enough by globaljustin · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I think we've got to the bottom of this pretty well...wish all /. posts were of your quality

    The survey you're referring to may be one that was done by Sports Illustrated as part of a story about steroids. It's at least 5 years old, but I remember it b/c of the type of answers you mentioned. Yep...I agree with your point that once the tech gets going heavy, there will need to be something proactive done to mitigate eager athletes. maybe an "organic" and "non-organic" category?

    I've only seen basic info about transhumanism, but I like the idea of putting tech in my body to help me snowboard better. Not sure about all the philosophical underpinnings, but i'd def. get something done to my eyes for better than natural vision...if it were cheap enough, i'd get some LED lights or something just for the hell of it...

    _j

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:fair enough by FleaPlus · · Score: 1
      Not sure about all the philosophical underpinnings, but i'd def. get something done to my eyes for better than natural vision...if it were cheap enough, i'd get some LED lights or something just for the hell of it...

      Coincidentally, just the other day when I was looking up information on different types of contact lenses, and came across info on "light-filtering contacts," which seem to be a way to enhance one's vision in a fairly innocuous manner. I have no idea if various sports agencies have an official policy yet regarding these sorts of things:

      http://www.allaboutvision.com/contacts/colors.htm

      Light-filtering tints are a more recent development. These contact lenses are designed for sports use, because they enhance certain colors (such as optic yellow, the color of tennis balls and some softballs and golf balls), as a result of muting other colors. The result is that the ball stands out against the background and is easier to target. The lenses can also be used by spectators.

      One type of light-filtering contact lens has been developed especially for golfers, so they can better distinguish between the various greens on a golf course. Amber-tinted ones have been worn by some professional baseball players, to help filter out the blue light that reduces their ability to see the baseball clearly. Other color contacts are being developed for trap-shooters, skiers and other sports enthusiasts.
  54. Prosthectic springy stilts vs shoes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Olympic committee has already banned performance enhancing drugs, I can't see them allowing this. I could learn to "run" really fast with a pair of these...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerbocking

    1. Re:Prosthectic springy stilts vs shoes by _Shad0w_ · · Score: 1

      You obviously missed the bit in TFA where it states the IOC welcomed the decision, viz. "The International Olympic Committee welcomed the verdict."

      --

      Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.

  55. Missing the point of unfair advantage by soundhack · · Score: 1

    I think people who say "its not an unfair advantage because he's still too slow" are missing the point. It's unfair because there is a possibility that, without these mechanical legs, he would be even slower. Performing better with mechanical legs than with normal legs is the definition of unfair advantage.

    I know the article mentions an MIT study that says there isnt a mechanical advantage, but I find that hard to believe.

  56. Drugs ARE (Potentially) Dangerous by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Drug taking IS NOT illegal because it is dangerous. Actually that is exactly why many drugs are illegal. That's why we have prescriptions and require a doctor to confirm that we need certain medications. It also keeps many unethical swindlers from peddling snake-oil cures. It's also why many drugs with limited medicinal uses are prohibited for sale to the general public. Pretty much any drug has the potential to be dangerous if used improperly and many are quite dangerous under any circumstances even with the best of supervision.

    Anabolic steroids have legal uses. I have an aunt who has been using them for a few years. Under appropriate supervision steroids can be safely used but they also can cause all sorts of problem including but not limited to immune system suppression. There are medical conditions such as allergies where their use is indicated (though almost always for short periods of time) but they're not to be taken lightly.

    Aspirin and similar drugs in that category kill more people than ALL illegal drugs in the US You're going to have to cite some data to back that up before I find that credible. You might be right but that's a pretty big claim to make.

    Saying that performance enhancing drugs are somehow more dangerous is only used to convince feeble minded dolts that 'all drugs are bad'. You're missing the point. The problem is not that the drugs CAN NOT be used safely. The problem is that the WILL NOT be used safely. Athletes will keep trying to get an edge and they will push beyond the limits of safety in their quest for sporting glory. It's absolutely guaranteed to happen.

    Are performance enhancing drugs more dangerous than others? Absolutely not. But they are dangerous just like every other drug, especially when used at the limits of human capability.
  57. 800m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wouldn't he be better off cheating^H^H^H^H^competing in the 800m if he starts slower than other athletes, but speeds up quicker and uses far less energy and doesn't suffer from as many lactic acid issues?

  58. Nah, it's cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll buy one of those pairs of petrol-powered boots and enter the high/long jump and the sprint.

    35mph FTW!!!

    Hey, I'm disabled: I'm a fat lazy bastard!

  59. What's wrong by __aawkdb2598 · · Score: 1

    with getting a little leg up on the competition?

  60. Enhancements for the able bodied. by 1%warren · · Score: 1

    Checking out http://www.ossur.com/prosthetics/feet who make Pistorius's feet, I can't help but wonder about what something like that could do for the able bodied. I spend all day on my feet in a warehouse, & shock absorbing speed & height increasing power boots would be really helpful. Using kinetic energy from body weight & gravity instead of muscles would mean a lot less fatigue too.

    --

    Full plate and packing steel! -Minsc
  61. Cheetah Flex-Foot Shoe? by hicksw · · Score: 1

    Can the Cheetah Flex-Foot be adapted as a running shoe/stilt for runners with feet?

    That would give a sensible way to measure the putative performance advantage.

    If they are better, this decision should allow all runners to use them.

    If they are worse, then they should be allowed, but nobody with feet would bother.

  62. I got this vision in my head. by hyperz69 · · Score: 1

    The gun fires
    Oscar runs down the track
    The others are catching up
    A girl screams, "RUN OSCAR RUN"
    His mechanical legs shatter off and it turns out he could run faster then the wind all along

    Now if you'll excuse me it is time for my electro shock treatments!

  63. Isn't this like the PGA vs LPGA tour? by justthinkit · · Score: 2, Interesting

    LPGA women can compete with the PGA men, but not vice-a-versa? Who came up with this nonsense? Same for the female hockey goalie playing in the NHL, but I presume no men allowed to play in the women's league.

    Once you hear of something like this it is time to find your sports fix elsewhere. This is really more of a political correctness / "we are all equal but some of us are more equal than others" movement than a sports one.

    It all comes back to one group wanting a one-way advantage over another. This furthers the "minority" advantage everywhere, tilting the playing field even more toward pig rule. P.C. = irony challenged.

    --
    I come here for the love
  64. Nude by nyonix · · Score: 1

    Here's an ideia, why dont they all compete bare naked,no more help from high tech, i'm sure no one as ever thought of that.... >_>

  65. wow - ignorance rules by mofag · · Score: 2, Insightful

    His prosthetics are actually less efficient than human legs for running so they confer no advantage. If you want to know more try searching the New Scientist archive. They have a good article on this at http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/mg19426055.200 although I think you need to subscribe to see it.

    To quote from the article "Most prosthetic leg specialists say such concerns are ill-founded, for now at least. The prosthetic legs, which are made by the Icelandic company Ossur, act like springs which store energy as the foot is pushed into the ground, and then return much of it to the runner, just as tendons do in a natural ankle. However, unlike natural legs, the Ossur prosthetics lack the muscles to generate their own power, and so provide much less energy overall than natural legs, the experts say."

    I think there is a case for banning amputee runners from using power assisted prosthetics or prosthetics that were unnaturally long but I think that would be an obvious move that could be made even without the expert opinions of /.ers. I also think that makes about 99% of posts here irrelevant but don't let that spoil your fun. Thank you. Nick
  66. obligatory grindhouse quote by holywarrior21c · · Score: 1

    what about owning everyone with one of these.Grindhouse:Planet Terror

  67. I want to be able to compete too! by blackjackshellac · · Score: 0

    In my Mini Cooper S Convertible! It's only fair. This is an inane decision.

    --
    Salut,

    Jacques

  68. Running robot by Robotdalen · · Score: 1

    We are using the same kind of feet (kindly donated by Ã-ssur) for our robot that is being built to run 100m. It has a battery that can deliver 165A at 40V or 50V, which drives a motor of 4.5kW which in turn drives the hydraulic pump. The hyrdraulic pressure of 200bar drives the hydraulic cylinders in the hips. We are aiming at 100m in 9.5 seconds, and the name of the robot is Dasher!

  69. Spirit is irrelevant by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The question is do these alleged "enhancements" negate the human spirit. ...or are they simply 1:1 replacements for what he was born with. The problem is that it is impossible to tell how much is him and how much is the prosthetics. He can't run without them so there is nothing to compare to. Any argument that they do or do not provide an "advantage" is ridiculous because his performance versus the prosthetics performance are not separable.

    What cannot be argued is that they do enhance his performance. They do so in very much the same way that steroids enhance performance. My legs don't work well enough to get me to the Olympics either but with some good drugs and/or a mechanical assist I would definitely have a better shot at it. I admire the guy but I don't think he deserves a shot at the Olympics either because he cannot compete fairly with the other athletes.

    Furthermore you are forgetting about the guy who's place he would take in the games. Why should that guy get screwed just because he couldn't use a mechanical assist? He shouldn't.
  70. 3 Laws Safe by OMNIpotusCOM · · Score: 1

    That's ok, as long as they follow the three laws of cyborg athletes

    1) Thou shalt not beat another human in any competition
    2) Thou shalt not use performance enchancing drugs/modchips
    3) Thou shalt run Linux unless in conflict with laws 1 or 2

  71. Legs versus drugs by sjbe · · Score: 1

    This is hardly scientific but I've also noticed that - just looking at him - he has a higher BF% and isn't nearly as defined, muscularly - as the other athletes in that event. That's because he's spending his money on performance enhancing legs instead of performance enhancing drugs.

    Would be funnier if it weren't so true...
    1. Re:Legs versus drugs by MBraynard · · Score: 1
      It's not funny and it's not true.

      I look more like a 400 runner than he does and I've never touched a PED. Just look at his BF. You don't need a PED to get under 8 or so and he isn't there - you'd think the desire to get into the Olys would be enough to motivate you to do so.

      Further, the olympic athletes these days, especially in the US, regularly undergo strict, random screening. An associate of mine was competing for a US slot and the officials once randomly showed up with this person was teaching a class I was in to take a sample.

      Further, he isn't actually paying for the cost of those legs and even if he was, they would dwarf the cost of PEDs, which are relatively cheap.

    2. Re:Legs versus drugs by sjbe · · Score: 1

      It's not funny and it's not true. I think it's funny and it certainly was intended to be.

      Further, the olympic athletes these days, especially in the US, regularly undergo strict, random screening. An associate of mine was competing for a US slot and the officials once randomly showed up with this person was teaching a class I was in to take a sample. Believe me I'm well aware. My coach in college was a two time Olympic gold medalist. Also I'm married to a pathologist who has run the sorts of labs where they do these tests. That said, the random screening is helpful but hardly foolproof. I have an MD sitting twenty feet away from me as I write this who can attest to that. There are plenty of doping methods that are presently undetectable or easily concealed. It's an arms race that the cheaters will always be a step ahead in. For example here is a letter from Victor Conte of Balco pharma fame on how athletes could use PED and evade detection.

      Further, he isn't actually paying for the cost of those legs and even if he was, they would dwarf the cost of PEDs, which are relatively cheap. He may be sponsored you are right. I don't know either way. That said, a top quality doping program is reputed to cost many tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. I can provide sources for that figure if you wish. That ain't cheap no matter who you are asking.
  72. Genetic lottery. by sjbe · · Score: 1

    What happens when someone is born with a birth defect which happens to enhance his capability in a competitive sport? Happens all the time and it's ok. Guys who can win the Tour De France have a cardiovascular system that is FAR superior to yours or mine. Take Michael Phelps as an example. He's 6'6" (or thereabouts), has a nearly 7' reach fingertip to fingertip, has feet so large they are basically flippers, and a top notch cardio system. I don't care how hard you work, you'll NEVER beat him in a swim meet because he is simply perfectly built for that sport. And you know what? That's ok. He won the genetic lottery and we didn't.

    Using a mechanical assist to overcome a disadvantage and simply being born with an advantage are very different issues. The rules and equipment are supposed to be the same, not the outcomes.
  73. The article is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article says that the Court of Arbitration for Sport overturned an IAAF decision banning Oscar Piscatorius from the Olympics. What the IAAF had actually banned was his prsotheses, not Piscatorius himself.