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China Races To Clean Up Olympic Air

Hugh Pickens writes "With the Olympics due to start in less than three weeks, Beijing is cranking up antipollution measures by yanking cars off the roads, expanding mass transit and staggering work hours in a bid to meet its pledge of a 'green' Olympics. Beijing has gone on a spending spree, relocating factories, seeding clouds, retiring old vehicles, planting millions of trees and halting building construction amid concerns that athletes and visitors could suffer breathing problems. For the next two months, owners of 3.3 million private cars can drive only on alternate days in China's capital, based on whether the last digit of their license plates is even or odd. Environmental and sports performance experts have cast doubt on the effectiveness of the measures taken so far. 'Arguably these are all short-term measures, just designed to control air quality for the time when the Olympics are on,' says Dr Andy Jones. Dr Angus Hunter warned that athletes are at risk for low performance if the air quality cannot be brought down to acceptable levels. 'Average times could be lower and the chances of records being broken become less. It's a bit like trying to exercise in a room when the gym is full of smokers.'"

362 comments

  1. Chairman Mao says take the bus! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    That would be such a neat ad campaign. You could show Mao smiling as he holds a bus pass. I think it would work well in California too.

    1. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by 4D6963 · · Score: 4, Funny

      You're aware he's been dead for over 30 years, are you? Not only would the credibility of "Chairman Mao says" be quite impacted by this fact, but also I'm afraid the photo on the ad wouldn't look so glamorous. On the other hand you'd be guaranteed he'd make the largest smile he's ever made on a photo.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    2. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by bersl2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Such propoganda posters are often artistic works, not photographs.

    3. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by phasm42 · · Score: 1

      You could show Mao smiling as he holds a bus pass.

      A bus pass to a forced labor camp. Mao would reduce pollution by purging the population or setting up camps in which "enemies of the state" would be forced to pedal bicycles to generate electricity.

      --
      "No one likes working in a hamster wheel, and your shop smells of cedar shavings from here." - TaleSpinner
    4. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by wattrlz · · Score: 2, Funny

      He's not dead, he's just resting.

    5. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2, Funny

      With all apologies to Eddie Izzard and Chairman Mao:

      Little Red Bus Pass!
      Little Red Bus Pass!
      Little Red Bus Pass!

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    6. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      woooosh!

    7. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Funny

      Such propoganda posters are often artistic works, not photographs.

      Wait, are you saying Jesus didn't pose for the Buddy Christ?

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    8. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      woooosh!

      Ha! The whoosh is on you! My post was a joke.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    9. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by Joeyspecial · · Score: 1

      If you go carryin' pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

    10. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by H0p313ss · · Score: 5, Funny

      woooosh!

      Ha! The whoosh is on you! My post was a joke.

      For small values of joke.

      --
      XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    11. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by Narpak · · Score: 3, Funny

      Which is why the ad should be Mao, Regan and Kennedy taking the bus together arm in arm.

    12. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by XnavxeMiyyep · · Score: 1

      and Lew Rockwell. Can't forget the Libertarians!

      --
      I put the 't' in electrical engineering.
    13. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by NuclearBovineBoy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, old statues and posters of Mao sell quite well in China nowadays as kitchy half-ironic antiques, so I imagine a "Mao says buy bus passes" ad campaign could succeed.

    14. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by WED+Fan · · Score: 1

      Which is why the ad should be Mao, Regan and Kennedy taking the bus together arm in arm.

      ooh ooh oooh, great idea, and the bus is passing Stalin who is under the hood of his Trabant, cursing the day he said that taking the bus was inconvenient and never went where he wanted to go and always had smelly bums pissing on the back seat.

      --
      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
    15. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not that being dead hurts North Korean Kim Ir-sen's fame and credibility :)

    16. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      Sung to the tune "Little Red Corvette"?

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    17. Re:Chairman Mao says take the bus! by gormanw · · Score: 1

      They have been working on putting on green roofs on some of their buildings. While I am a huge fan of green roofs (http://www.cleanerairforcities.blogspot.com) what China needs is scrubbers on their coal-fired power plants. I was in Shanghai in January and it was awful. The pollution stunk and was very acrid.

  2. Just now? by IronWilliamCash · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If only they would do this for the right reasons... They'll be cleaning up for the olympics but it will all go back to hell as soon as it's over. They should try to solve the problem permanently instead of suppressing it so others think it's livable over there.

    1. Re:Just now? by rob1980 · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Yeah, I'm betting a lot of those measures they are implementing aren't sustainable in the long term and will promptly vanish once the last event is over.

    2. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is rather funny that they are going through all this trouble to make it slightly less polluted for all these foreigners coming for a short time. Instead of cleaning up for their own citizens. Well I suppose those foreigners have the good money, so it definitely is not surprising.

    3. Re:Just now? by DriedClexler · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I apologize profusely for not posting this in a more relevant spot, and for not finding where I originally heard this suggested, but, one interesting theory is that the reason for this nearly doubling of oil prices in the past year is that China is stockpiling it to run diesel instead of coal plants, so as to clean up their air for the olympics.

      Considering how inscrutable these recent price increases have been, this one seems really good at explaining things. Just a thought.

      For now, check out item 3 from a while ago, which mentions China trying to clean up for the Olympic games, and how they're importing more diesel.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    4. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      They've spent a fortune relocating factories including one of the world's biggest steelworks. They are not going to spend a fortune moving them all back again. They are not going to close the new metro lines. Even some of the temporary measures may have long term effects; people using the new transport networks while their cars are banned may switch permanently. This isn't just window dressing.

      That said, I returned from Beijing a week ago and the smog is terrible. I still have a very nasty cough. Though the air quality is much improved, it's still rubbish.

    5. Re:Just now? by HairyCanary · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, I'm glad they are working so hard. At this point it's way too late to save their image. Even if they cut the pollution to zero for the Olympics it will be a hot topic. Every day on the news we hear about how hard they're working to solve the problem, and we get bombarded with pictures of how bad the situation is. China's pollution needed to be exposed to the world, now it is.

    6. Re:Just now? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

      China is stockpiling it to run diesel instead of coal plants, so as to clean up their air for the olympics.

      I am not an expert on large power plants (in fact I know next to nothing about them which is why I'm posting here on Slashdot) but I'd be pretty surprised if you could just take an coal fired powerplant and just plug a diesel tanker into it. If your idea were true, you should see huge changes around the plants - construction of the tanks for one thing as diesel just doesn't form nice large piles like coal does.

      Take the tin-foil off, you'll feel better.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    7. Re:Just now? by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 5, Funny

      The residents of Beijing just need to inhale deeply just before the games end and hold it for the rest of their lives.

      Problem solved!

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    8. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      China is making many efforts to go towards a greener future, and 3 of their changes do sound rather long term.

      >> relocating factories
      >> retiring old vehicles
      >> planting millions of trees

      Besides this they have been researching sustainable cities for a while now.

    9. Re:Just now? by barzok · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They should try to solve the problem permanently instead of suppressing it so others think it's livable over there.

      They aren't doing it for image purposes, to make people think that "it's livable over there."

      They're doing it because they've been told that events will be postponed or canceled to protect the health of the athletes if the air quality is poor.

      Which, yes, could ultimately come back to their image, but really it's about the money & what happens if scheduled events have to be canceled.

    10. Re:Just now? by initdeep · · Score: 2, Interesting

      then why dont they just sign onto the kyoto protocol at the same level that other developed (read the united states) countries are supposed to.

      oh wait.......

      China is the single largest user of coal power and also the single dirtiest and most unsafe user as well.

      the average death rate for chinese coal workers is more than 10/day iirc.

    11. Re:Just now? by initdeep · · Score: 5, Insightful

      and most of that air quality has to do with the coal power plants which run with no emission controls like other countries have.

      they haven't, and are not, going to change that.

      it's something they have literally hundreds of years of supply, and something they can get for next to nothing in the way of costs, unlike oil based products which they have to import.

      and they aren't interested in spending money on economically friendly "alternative" energy sources that wouldn't supply 1% of their needs when they can again, spend next to nothing (including wages and other costs) to just use something they have.
      COAL.

    12. Re:Just now? by initdeep · · Score: 5, Insightful

      it has been for years.

      witness the very reason the kyoto protocol treaty was not ratified by the US despite a cetain person's desire.

      it was bullshit.

      and now everyone knows it.

      and the biggest reason it was bullshit was because china and india weren't going to be held accountable for their actions.

      and the "Developed" countries were, yet they already have in place protocols to limit their emissions.

      amazing how it comes full circle.

    13. Re:Just now? by techiemikey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      yes, that would be great. Unfortunately, they have 3 weeks until many athletes are competing in the highest level of competition there is. In order to do it so that it will last beyond the Olympics they should have started sooner. That being said, at least they are doing something for the time being. If the US was holding the Olympics in LA, i'm willing to bet we would have just told the other countries to live with it.

    14. Re:Just now? by megaditto · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Get off your high horse. Industrialized countried ("First World") have been polluting the Earth for over a century and are still -- by far-- the largest polluters in the world. Per capita, US is ranked 10th worst CO2 polluter, while China is 91st: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita
      There are many more examples one could come up with.

      As to all the Chinese coal-fired plants and carcinogen-spewing heavy industries, and I am not so sure the people's lifes would be better off without them. I have been to China, and all the clean rural places are dirt poor. The "dirty" industrialized areas, on the other hand, are much better off (probably at a level of Mexico or Brazil, but with a brighter future).

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    15. Re:Just now? by rronda · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is a good side to it. Usually is very expensive to perform a large scale air quality experiment in a city like Beijing. This will be useful to scientists to test models under different conditions than the normal operation of the city, and the impact of some of these measures on air quality, so more informed decision making can be made when trying to solve the problem for good.

    16. Re:Just now? by baldass_newbie · · Score: 1

      I am not an expert on large power plants (in fact I know next to nothing about them which is why I'm posting here on Slashdot)

      Almost had my first beverage through the nose experience of 2008. Nice disclaimer.

      --
      The opposite of progress is congress
    17. Re:Just now? by Ced_Ex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Granted China may be the single largest user of coal power, however, if you consider the pollution on a per person basis, the Chinese are polluting far less than most developed nations.

      I know for a fact, that Canadians are one of the most wasteful users of water, and the reason is because we have a lot and take fresh clean water for granted.

      Perhaps before we start pointing fingers, we should start with ourselves and set better examples?

      --
      Live forever, or die trying.
    18. Re:Just now? by BPPG · · Score: 1

      There is the off chance that this scramble for a green olympics will create more eco-awareness for the post-olympics China. Even if it does go to crap, maybe eco-integrity will be better than if they didn't make that effort in the first place?

      Or maybe I'm just an optimist.

      --
      What's the value of information that you don't know?
    19. Re:Just now? by Alzheimers · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The US: We're not over-polluting, we're under-overpopulated!

    20. Re:Just now? by noc007 · · Score: 1

      What I want to know is why have they been a bunch of slackers? If you know you're going to host the farking Olympics and have some serious pollution issues, get a move on cleaning it up and reducing the causes of it shortly after you know you're going to host it.

    21. Re:Just now? by Aereus · · Score: 1

      But the only reason they are doing all of this is so that they aren't publicly disgraced in front of the entire world over complaints about how polluted their country and/or Beijing is. When all is said and done, the only thing that will be different is a handful of factories were moved.

    22. Re:Just now? by DriedClexler · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh come on, the tin-foil accusation is low and very misplaced. The theory proposes precisely ONE agent acting. ONE. As in, "not a conspiracy". 95% of the theory is already public knowledge:

      -Oil prices have ~doubled.
      -China wants to look good for the olympics, including having clean air.
      -Diesel is cleaner than coal.
      -China has already done lots of other things to clean up.
      -China has massively increased imports of refined diesel.
      -Developing countries were known to be growing rapidly since at least '04, yet it didn't seem to justify $100+ oil then.
      -Ditto for pretty much every other factor that can account for increasing oil prices.

      And you can probably even look up the fraction of global oil recently bought by China, satellite images of power plant mods, etc.

      This is no tin-foil hat theory.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    23. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      You inhale deeply in Beijing, and it'll turn out to be your last breath anyways ;)

    24. Re:Just now? by Slowping · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm no China apologist, but I wonder if people are dismissing the long-lasting impacts of these efforts. Big political events such as the Olympics are great motivators for change and innovation in the same way as wars; and in much more agreeable conditions. A significant amount of spending and change that Bejing is instituting here is indeed short term; but not without some residual long-lasting impacts for Bejing and other cities. Even if the enviro-friendly spending is cut to a fraction of what it is now, the experience and momentum gained is non-trivial, IMHO. 10 years from now while the developed Western world is still holding each others' dicks and talking about policy change, we may wake up to find China as the underdog that beat everyone to the punch. I have no doubt that the central political forces in China would love to deal such a large international political blow.

      --
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    25. Re:Just now? by Lincolnshire+Poacher · · Score: 2, Informative

      > something they can get for next to nothing in the way of costs, unlike oil based products which they have to import.

      You'll love this...

      Yes, China has vast internal coal potential. Internal in terms of geography - it is far from the coastal regions where it is most needed. Initially the coal was transported by rail, but this used too much precious diesel so instead China now imports coal by sea. Yes, imports.

      http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10795813

      China is currently consuming around 30% of global coal production.

    26. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      What!?!?! That's ridiculous!

      Everybody knows that the failure of the Kyoto protocol was all part of a vast right wing conspiracy to destroy the environment! They do it because they are teh eval!

      How dare you suggest that there might have been rational reasons that were readily apparent to anyone who looked beyond the end of their own nose!

    27. Re:Just now? by Narpak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Becoming more energy efficient and reducing our emission in any sensible way we can is a very reasonable path to take. Saying we shouldn't do it because China isn't doing anything isn't an argument.

    28. Re:Just now? by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you have more water than you can store, then it's not wasting it if you use more than you need. On the other hand, citizens of the US use far more than our share. On the gripping hand, our government uses much of that (and dictates how we shall use much of the rest of it) and isn't really listening to us any more (if it ever did.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    29. Re:Just now? by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Informative

      and most of that air quality has to do with the coal power plants which run with no emission controls like other countries have.

      I hate to break it to you, but at least in the US the average coal plant is way over the allowable limit of emissions. We can find out-of-compliance coal plants in the US as fast as we can secure money to send people up smokestacks to check emissions. I know one person formerly in the stack-sniffing business with whom I have discussed the situation (among others) and it's very, very dirty.

      and they aren't interested in spending money on economically friendly "alternative" energy sources that wouldn't supply 1% of their needs when they can again, spend next to nothing (including wages and other costs) to just use something they have.

      The overall cost of burning fossil fuels is much higher than they think. Cancer rates doubled in the industrial revolution.

      China isn't really known for paying its laborers fairly anyway, I'm sure they could do solar and wind quite cheaply. They are working on bringing up wind power, but not as hard as they're working on coal.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    30. Re:Just now? by nomadic · · Score: 5, Interesting

      if you consider the pollution on a per person basis, the Chinese are polluting far less than most developed nations.

      When you're talking about a finite resource like clean air, a per capita analysis is worthless, the total effect is what's important. China has 1 billion+ people.

    31. Re:Just now? by quarterbuck · · Score: 1

      That is a pretty ridiculous argument to make
      On a per capita basis India and China pollute 1/10 or less as much as US. On a per dollar of GDP basis, US, India and China are comparable for pollution. Additionally, China is the de facto factory of the world, while US is becoming more and more of a middleman with most manufacturing being done elsewhere.
      The problem that is evident in Beijing in due to the fact that China is so much more densely populated than the US. They already are trying to fix that (1 child per family) and also clean up the city when Americans are visiting their country - so cut them some slack.
      It is not like US is going to let half a billion Chinese into US to balance out the population density, now is it?

      --
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    32. Re:Just now? by sglewis100 · · Score: 1
      Becoming more energy efficient and reducing our emission in any sensible way we can is a very reasonable path to take. Saying we shouldn't do it because China isn't doing anything isn't an argument.

      True, but becoming more energy efficient, and reducing our emissions is possible without signing Kyoto. I also don't think drilling offshore is the solution to our energy woes. But it's a good thing to do ALSO. Be great if the government would allow leases of off shore drilling land, if a certain amount of the gross revenue was set aside for alternate fuel R&D. Just because it doesn't help us tomorrow doesn't mean it can't help us today if done right.

    33. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Saying we shouldn't do it because China isn't doing anything isn't an argument.

      China has, or is about to, overtake the US as the world's highest producer of CO2.

      Enforcing the Kyoto Treaty in the US would have minimal impact on world-wide CO2 emissions, but a devastating impact on the US economy.

    34. Re:Just now? by Ced_Ex · · Score: 3, Interesting

      if you consider the pollution on a per person basis, the Chinese are polluting far less than most developed nations.

      When you're talking about a finite resource like clean air, a per capita analysis is worthless, the total effect is what's important. China has 1 billion+ people.

      You have to consider a per capita basis... it's sort of like sitting at the dinner table with the fat guy with the overflowing plate telling the bunch skinny guys with a single pea on their plates to eat less.

      --
      Live forever, or die trying.
    35. Re:Just now? by jav1231 · · Score: 1

      I hate to break it to you, but at least in the US the average coal plant is way over the allowable limit of emissions. We can find out-of-compliance coal plants in the US as fast as we can secure money to send people up smokestacks to check emissions. I know one person formerly in the stack-sniffing business with whom I have discussed the situation (among others) and it's very, very dirty.

      The overall cost of burning fossil fuels is much higher than they think. Cancer rates doubled in the industrial revolution.

      China isn't really known for paying its laborers fairly anyway, I'm sure they could do solar and wind quite cheaply. They are working on bringing up wind power, but not as hard as they're working on coal.

      What is allowable? And given how much cleaner our plants are, his point still stands. I imagine our plants are dramatically cleaner than theirs. Why does this have to be a "oh yeah! look at what we do!" point? China is a fucking joke compared to the rest of the world, especially the U.S. I realize it's in vogue and all the lefists will complement you for your shiny new "America-bashing" but stay the fuck on point. China, besides being a human rights nightmare, is a pollution nightmare but for some reason tree-fuckers are often reluctant to call them out without including some pissy anti-America comment.

    36. Re:Just now? by Ced_Ex · · Score: 0

      We don't need to store it as it simply comes out of the many fresh water lakes we have. However, that water is processed to "clean" it.

      You waste water by not using it for its intended purpose, like letting the tap run as you brush your teeth, or taking five baths a day when a simple shower will suffice.

      I've heard of strange practices like flushing a clean toilet BEFORE you go, because it's "fresher". People do a lot of wasteful things.

      --
      Live forever, or die trying.
    37. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even some of the temporary measures may have long term effects; people using the new transport networks while their cars are banned may switch permanently.

      I very much doubt that; cars in the newly-capitalist Party's Republic of China are meant for conspicuous consumption, a way to demonstrate wealth and gain social status.

      Personally, I think they should bring back rickshaws, that way the would-be rich and affluent can demonstrate their wealth while getting around, but without polluting. Also, it creates jobs.

    38. Re:Just now? by comp.sci · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What kind of an argument is this? Some of the other guys aren't playing nice so we won't either? Let's keep things in perspective, China and India, while both becoming economically strong, are still to some degree developing countries. India's yearly budget for health spending is $4 per person, just to give an example. You are saying that if an impoverished country like them doesn't put in an equal amount of effort then you shouldn't either... I think people don't realize how big the gap is between developed and developing countries. I personally believe that since we got so lucky on where we were born, we also have a moral obligation to work towards better chances for future generations to enjoy the same prosperity as we do. And yes, that includes taking initiative ourselves, showing that we are above silly fights like that. We need to stop seeing this as a competition but as a collective effort to improve this world.

    39. Re:Just now? by vviIIyhiII · · Score: 0, Troll

      Fucking little chinks just know how to decorate shit for the westerners to see. The world will not survive unless we have a white majority in the world.

      White Power World Wide!

      --
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    40. Re:Just now? by NuclearBovineBoy · · Score: 1

      A lot of the smog in Beijing proper is from neighboring provinces. It's going to take longer to clean all those up. Beijing has done a great job, considering the immensity of the task and the rather large potential for corruption to hinder it.

    41. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a bit more shocking than that. China insists in showing off their supposedly grand urban development plans that would, in their own account, make cities like Beijing and Shanghai become some sort of example to the world. Nonetheless, their plans display such lack of attention to basic and vital aspects like public transportation systems and access to green spaces that one must wonder what exactly were they thinking.

      China's cities were developed chaotically and don't benefit from basic infrastructure, which is specially surprising as urban planning is in fact the one of the few areas that greatly benefit by having a fascist government. So why exactly is anyone surprised that a fascist state orders their citizens to jump through hoops just to try to put on a show to the entire world?

    42. Re:Just now? by homer_s · · Score: 1

      Developing countries were known to be growing rapidly since at least '04, yet it didn't seem to justify $100+ oil then.

      Oil prices did rise though. They rose according to the demand-supply conditions then. Why would it need to hit the magical $100 to validate anything?

    43. Re:Just now? by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Your analogy is flawed - you address that which would have the greatest nett effect. That would be to tell the tell the fat guy to reduce his consuption.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    44. Re:Just now? by Arccot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      then why dont they just sign onto the kyoto protocol at the same level that other developed (read the united states) countries are supposed to.

      oh wait.......

      China is the single largest user of coal power and also the single dirtiest and most unsafe user as well.

      the average death rate for chinese coal workers is more than 10/day iirc.

      They're also a massive manufacturing center and exporting superpower. It's easy to tell China to shape up, when the only reason wealthy Western countries are relatively cleaner is because they outsource most dirty manufacturing to China.

    45. Re:Just now? by HappySmileMan · · Score: 1

      China has, or is about to, overtake the US as the world's highest producer of CO2.

      It's just overtaken, or soon will over-take America, but it has over 3 times the population of America for a long time.

      The way I see, it, both are inexcusably high, but China uses 2/3 less per person. I would have assumed from the way people go on about it, that China actually create MORE pollution per person, not much, much less.

    46. Re:Just now? by dodobh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions_per_capita indicates that the US emitted 22.9 tonnes of CO2 per capita, China was at 3.9 tonnes, and India was at a measly 1.8 tonnes per capita. The US should have been emitting ~ 0.8 tonnes per capita of CO2 to be equitable to India, twice that for China.

      After all, all that India and China are asking for is the same quality of life for their citizens as enjoyed by the more "developed" nations. Perhaps you need to rethink your assumptions here.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    47. Re:Just now? by xtracto · · Score: 1

      then why dont they just sign onto the kyoto protocol at the same level that other developed (read the united states) countries are supposed to.

      Half truths... half truths

      The United States (U.S.), although a signatory to the Kyoto Protocol, has neither ratified nor withdrawn from the Protocol. The signature alone is symbolic, as the Kyoto Protocol is non-binding on the United States unless ratified.

      China is the single largest user of coal power and also the single dirtiest and most unsafe user as well.

      The United States was, as of at least 2005 (and, according to various reports, to date), the largest single emitter of carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels.

      For more, anti kool-aid see:
      here

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    48. Re:Just now? by Solandri · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They've spent a fortune relocating factories including one of the world's biggest steelworks. They are not going to spend a fortune moving them all back again. They are not going to close the new metro lines. Even some of the temporary measures may have long term effects; people using the new transport networks while their cars are banned may switch permanently. This isn't just window dressing.

      While public transport use is definitely a plus, moving the factories is probably a net negative. The factories were probably initially located there for a reason - availability of labor, proximity to customers. Moving them doesn't reduce the pollution, it simply shifts it to a different location. Forcing workers into longer commutes and increasing transport distance to customers causes an overall increase in pollution.

    49. Re:Just now? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      The way I see, it, both are inexcusably high, but China uses 2/3 less per person. I would have assumed from the way people go on about it, that China actually create MORE pollution per person, not much, much less.

      If you project their emissions levels out to first-world status, they're on route to be much, much dirtier than even the U.S. The fact that their coal plants don't have any emissions controls at all is a pretty good indication of where they're headed. For this reason I never understood why China and India were left off of Kyoto. All the treaty needed to do was set their CO2 quotas at first-world levels. That would've been way higher than what they're currently emitting, giving them lots of room to grow. But it would've been hanging over them as ceiling, thus discouraging the total disregard for air quality they've shown thus far. It's baffling that a treaty which was based on concern for the future would miss such an obvious future development. So I suspect the reasons were political, and not "they're not emitting enough to worry about" as is so commonly given.

    50. Re:Just now? by griffjon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      To be fair, while China consumes 1,310,000,000 billion short tons of coal (and is the top coal consumer, 28.7% in these numbers); the US, with a fraction of the population, is right behind it at #2 with 1,060,000,000 B short tons (23.3%)

      China is 16th worldwide in coal-per-capita; US is 5th, behind South Africa, N. Korea, Greece, and at #1 coal-per-capita, Australia, oddly enough.

      More fun stats via http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_coa_con-energy-coal-consumption

      --
      Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
    51. Re:Just now? by gnick · · Score: 1

      China is stockpiling it to run diesel instead of coal plants, so as to clean up their air for the olympics.

      ... I'd be pretty surprised if you could just take an coal fired powerplant and just plug a diesel tanker into it.

      If GPP said "China is stockpiling it to run diesel in their coal plants", you'd have him. But I'm pretty sure that he's just relaying speculation that they may be converting some of their power production into diesel plants instead of coal. You know - New construction.

      Take the tin-foil off, you'll feel better.

      I don't think I've ever seen that misused so badly... Little petty, don't you think?

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    52. Re:Just now? by gnick · · Score: 1

      While public transport use is definitely a plus, moving the factories is probably a net negative. The factories were probably initially located there for a reason - availability of labor, proximity to customers. Moving them doesn't reduce the pollution, it simply shifts it to a different location. Forcing workers into longer commutes and increasing transport distance to customers causes an overall increase in pollution.

      I don't think they're interested in decreasing pollution. Unfortunately, I think the prime goal is to decentralize it. Whether it increases or decreases pollution is just an afterthought.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    53. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      The US: We're not over-polluting, we're under-overpopulated!

      That depends if you are counting number of people or pounds of flesh...

    54. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I looked at your link - Please explain to me how you got 1/10 or less.

      1.8/8.2 ~= 1/5

      1/5 > 1/10...

    55. Re:Just now? by TheTranceFan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah I was in Beijing about a year ago. They had started many of the air-quality programs already, such as banning scooters on the innermost two ring-roads that encircle Beijing and limiting new-construction permits.

      This (poor-quality) snapshot of the Bird's Nest from a moving taxi: Bird's Nest might give you an idea of what visibility was like while I was there.

      When I was there I really came the conclusion that:

      a) there was no conceivable way they could really improve the air quality enough in a year
      b) Beijing was not going to be remembered as a "great Olympic venue."

      I applaud their effort, for sure. They can't be faulted for trying, and try hard they did. But I think it's a little difficult to undo millennia of environmental neglect in a few years.

      BTW, I still think Beijing is a very interesting place and I look forward to visiting it again. I'm just glad I'm not going to be doing any 100-m dashes while I'm there.

    56. Re:Just now? by nocaster · · Score: 1

      China is stockpiling it to run diesel instead of coal plants, so as to clean up their air for the olympics.

      I am not an expert on large power plants (in fact I know next to nothing about them which is why I'm posting here on Slashdot) but I'd be pretty surprised if you could just take an coal fired powerplant and just plug a diesel tanker into it. If your idea were true, you should see huge changes around the plants - construction of the tanks for one thing as diesel just doesn't form nice large piles like coal does.

      Take the tin-foil off, you'll feel better.

      I don't know much about coal fired power plants either, but I did take a tour of one. They had giant tanks full of diesel on site and used them to get the firebox hot enough to sustain the burning of coal when bringing the plant online. So, the idea certainly seems plausible.

    57. Re:Just now? by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      But the point is that if you don't have a water shortage then their is no real need to conserve. It's not like if you use less water in Canada then us in California will have more available to use.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    58. Re:Just now? by ljgshkg · · Score: 1

      I've heard that they're actually planning to attract people out of the inner city and build new "central" areas. They've also planned to start controlling building's colours, theme, and height in the inner city trying to rebuild the original atmosphere.

    59. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with flushing /before/ using the restroom. Sometimes even, in my own house. First, it verifies that the toilet flushes and that the last person did not leave it partly clogged. Second, it clears some of the immediate germs and debris left by the last users. Yeah, one giardia bug is as bad as the 1000th, but I don't care. Just to spite you even more, I am one of those people who lay down paper before sitting down, to kill the splashback. So sue me for wasting paper.

      Anyway, I know that I am wasteful on the loo so I recycle at work and from my take-out lunches. And when the lazy bums at work don't recycle card board, I do my best to spare it from the trash. Just so I can sit on the throne guilt-free!

      L.

    60. Re:Just now? by joggle · · Score: 0

      the only reason wealthy Western countries are relatively cleaner is because they outsource most dirty manufacturing to China.

      That's not true. Western countries actually have environmental regulations and generally enforce them whereas China does not. China is extremely pro-business, even unable to force large businesses to pay their taxes (at least according to the recent Koppel documentary).

      Western countries force businesses to be more environmentally friendly. They also force energy plants to be cleaner. Coal power plants in the West are much cleaner than China ones (employing scrubbers to get most smog-forming particles out of the soot before being released to the atmosphere).

      Until China solves its huge problems with corruption and is able to control large businesses nothing will change over there.

    61. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only they would do this for the right reasons...

      They are doing it for the right reasons - although they might not be the same as your reasons, Yankee imperialist running dog prick.

      captcha: bigotry

    62. Re:Just now? by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      I'd be pretty surprised if you could just take an coal fired powerplant and just plug a diesel tanker into it.

      I'm not buying the oberal theory, but, be surprised if you want, a coal plant can runt out of about anything. Yes, you can change a coal plant to diesel with minor modifications, and most plant already have those modifications because they usualy run on diesel for small periods.

    63. Re:Just now? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2, Informative

      For this reason I never understood why China and India were left off of Kyoto.

      You didn't understand why China and India were left off of Kyoto?

      Let me explain - China said that they wouldn't sign Kyoto if it set binding CO2 targets on China. Just like China said recently that they won't sign the Kyoto follow-on if it requires binding targets for China.

      Ditto for India.

      Note that one of the arguments used to try to convince the USA to sign Kyoto was that China would sign on to binding targets in the next go-round of the Treaty. I notice that when China and India said that they wouldn't sign on to the next round, noone bothered to mention that the USA seemed to have been right about that point after all....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    64. Re:Just now? by susano_otter · · Score: 1

      What if they're taking their coal plants offline and running their diesel plants at full capacity to make up the difference?

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    65. Re:Just now? by JordanL · · Score: 1

      It's called political capital.

      Our emissions represent something that we can control, and others can't. However, it also represents something others want to control. If we give it to them simply because it marginally benefits us, well... ok...

      But in politics, particularly global politics, what you do is hold the things you can control hostage until others agree to your terms over something they control.

      In this case, the effective difference in global pollution between us signing the Kyoto, and us waiting until we can use that political capital to pressure China/India into reducing emissions almost surely results in a net reduction in pollution.

      Leading by example only works against the altruistic, and societies run from the top down are never altruistic.

      That's all completely ignoring the fact that the Kyoto treaty was itself flawed, because it placed no value on progression of emissions. The Kyoto treaty was like the emissions version of a time share: you could pollute as much as you wanted in, say, a 10 square mile area, as long as you paid another Kyoto Treaty member to have zero emissions in a comparable 10 square mile area.

      The net effect was that countries like Luxembourg could pay Russia to have a Luxembourg sized "pollution free zone" in Siberia, and then they were free to pollute as much as they wanted. Obviously, the US had no motivation to sign into that kind of system, (which would in all probabiliy result in net increases in pollution).

    66. Re:Just now? by DigiShaman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They're also a massive manufacturing center and exporting superpower. It's easy to tell China to shape up, when the only reason wealthy Western countries are relatively cleaner is because they outsource most dirty manufacturing to China.

      True, but only because the governments of Western nations impose all sorts of enviromental regulations making it too cost prohibited to manufacture locally.

      Basically, it's the whole concept of "the path of least resistance" in action.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    67. Re:Just now? by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      The overall cost of burning fossil fuels is much higher than they think. Cancer rates doubled in the industrial revolution.

      Yes, but life is cheap in a country with 2 billion people. That simple observation explains much about why China behaves as it does.

    68. Re:Just now? by eharvill · · Score: 1

      So, in 6 weeks or so (whenever the heck the Olympics are over) we should expect the price of oil to drop $30-40 a barrel since they won't be worried about looking good any longer???

      --
      At night I drink myself to sleep and pretend I don't care that you're not here with me
    69. Re:Just now? by DarthJohn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm gonna go ahead and reveal (yet again) how stupid I am. Here we go...

      How can you waste water? It's water. It evaporates, rains over the mountains, runs back to the oceans and repeats the process.

      What's it matter if I let a bit extra run down the drain?

      The only thing to waste is (I think) the energy used in the purification process. Somebody used some energy to clean the water and transport it. If I then pour that water down the drain, the energy was wasted.

      Is that it? The wasted energy cleaning and transporting it? I mean... we're not seriously going to run out of water are we? We just might run out of energy to process and transport it.

      p.s.
      I'm trying to ask a question and not be confrontational. I'm not saying that conserving water is a bad thing. I just want to be clear as to why we need to conserve water. I'm sure this is a stupid question and I'm an idiot.

    70. Re:Just now? by treeves · · Score: 1

      "Yeah, one giardia bug is as bad as the 1000th, but I don't care."

      Well, if you'd stop drinking from the toilet, you wouldn't have to care. Dogs with Slashdot accounts? I've seen it all.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    71. Re:Just now? by blockhouse · · Score: 1

      Speaking about rethinking assumptions, there is a serious flaw in your argument (and that of everyone else who are quoting CO2 stats in this thread).

      This thread is about air quality, and you're talking about greenhouse gases and global warming. You are conflating the issues by using CO2 emissions as a marker for air pollution in general. Air quality in a particular region, e.g. Beijing is not impacted by CO2 emissions. Likewise, Kyoto was about global warming, not air quality or smog. Now, if you wanted to quote particulate matter, ozone, and nitrogen-containing gas emissions, we'd have an argument. As it is, this thread is veering offtopic and probably confusing those without a critical eye.

    72. Re:Just now? by twostix · · Score: 1

      Australia is one of the worlds big coal exporters, we export 75% of the coal we dig up. As there's only 20 million of us in a country that's almost as big as the USA that's accessible by industry all year round (unlike Canada) of course we're going to be number one per capita when it comes to resources.

      At any one time outside of Newcastle which is one of our biggest coal ports there's dozens of ships waiting to pickup a load, it's quite a sight. Funnily enough right next to that, where all those millions of tonnes of coal are moved each year there's a giant wind turbine, and the CSIRO has an alternative energy research centre overlooking the train yard that delivers the coal to the port that's also got wind turbines on top...

    73. Re:Just now? by Free+the+Cowards · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Energy consumption is roughly proportional to economic output (roughly, obviously there are many factors in play) so it should come as no surprise that the US, with a larger economy than China, consumes similar amounts of coal.

      --
      If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
    74. Re:Just now? by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      I'm not expert, but I know that the cost of desalination is prohibitive. That's why places like Southern California have water shortages despite easy access to the ocean. I believe that purification of fresh water is less costly, but fresh water isn't always in abundance.

      There is talk here in San Diego of recycling our waste water but the major problem with that seems to be political. Some people have a somewhat irrational opposition to the idea.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    75. Re:Just now? by Free+the+Cowards · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cancer rates doubled in the industrial revolution.

      This is an astonishingly pointless thing to say. Cancer is, for the most part, something you get to die of when you're old. Life expectancy went up, more people got old, thus more people got cancer.

      For the most part, increased cancer rates have been a good thing. Cancer rates have, IIRC, tripled over the past hundred years or so. This is not because the environment is now loaded with carcinogens. Rather it is because people die less and less of things like heart attacks, strokes, accidents, etc., leaving more people to die of cancer instead.

      The number you want is incidence of cancer at any particular age, and even then you must be extremely careful not to get your numbers skewed because of improved detection.

      --
      If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
    76. Re:Just now? by William+Baric · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that if in Canada each person polluted five times more than the average American... it would be OK and Canada would be a model country because the net effect would still be half of the US?

    77. Re:Just now? by aharon · · Score: 1

      In many places, fresh water doesn't come from runoff, it gets pumped up out of aquifers in wells. Wasting water in such places (most of the midwest US for instance) means pumping the water out faster than it can percolate back down. Unfortunately, our cities and agriculture can rapidly suck out an aquifer which took hundreds of thousands of years to collect, and which will take that long to refill. In the next few decades, we're all going to get a harsh lesson in water management as we watch a lot of land west of the Mississippi dry out.
      I understand how it can be hard to see the problem when you think of it as a simple rain-drink-flush-evaporate-rain cycle, but that only holds true for areas overserved with runoff water that aren't in danger of overuse upstream (or of screwing people downstream).
      I'm in Philly; we take crappy polluted water from the end of a river, clean it, drink it and flush it into the last part of the river where it runs into the sea. Nobody's drying us out, we're not drying anyone else out. Very different than Montana, which is in a world of doodoo. Read "Collapse" by Jared Diamond.

    78. Re:Just now? by nomadic · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that if in Canada each person polluted five times more than the average American... it would be OK and Canada would be a model country because the net effect would still be half of the US?

      No, it would still be bad, and the fact that it was less than America doesn't absolve Canada of responsibility. Similarly, the fact that China's per capita pollution might be less doesn't magically lessen the incredible impact its huge population has on air quality.

    79. Re:Just now? by TummyX · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that part of being environmentally sound is having family planning. If people in developed countries choose to have less children to get a better standard of living then good for them. I think it's unfair to judge pollution on a per capita basis. Having low population is good for the environment!

    80. Re:Just now? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Here in Vancouver, BC the problems include
      Reservoirs that are filled mostly with snow-melt, can run out in a dry summer. Especially in those years when we don't get much snow.
      Population growth in the area is outstripping the water supply and water distribution network. Everyone waters their garden and water pressure drops.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    81. Re:Just now? by oldhack · · Score: 1

      When you're talking about a finite resource like clean air, a per capita analysis is worthless, the total effect is what's important. China has 1 billion+ people.

      Right, we should nuke China, and Belgium should nuke us. For the good of us all, you understand.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    82. Re:Just now? by William+Baric · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that the real problem is China has too much population? What is the solution? Transfer something like 500,000,000 Chinese to the US so both countries have the same number of people? Would it be better to simply kill'em all? Should we also kill 90% of the whole planet in order solve completely all environmental problem?

      I could agree that population control is part of of the role of a government. I could agree that polluting because of standard of living or inconsiderate waste production, and polluting because of a lack of population control is more or less the same. But I'd like to remind you that China has a population control policy and that most people in western countries criticize the Chinese government for that. So how can you blame someone for a problem, if you also blame him for trying to solve that problem? Because of that, and in order to avoid an hypocritical situation, the only number that I find honest is per capita.

      Anyway, you can't have it both ways. It's either per capita for each country, or total for each country. You can't compare the US to Canada on a per capita basis, and then compare the US to China on a total basis. It's one or the other.

    83. Re:Just now? by Atario · · Score: 1

      Shh...no one say anything about the oal-cay ired-fay eam-stay ains-tray.

      --
      "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
    84. Re:Just now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if they've ever heard of steam locomotion.

    85. Re:Just now? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      This (poor-quality) snapshot of the Bird's Nest from a moving taxi: Bird's Nest [pallium.com] might give you an idea of what visibility was like while I was there.
      When following your link my browser gives a redirect loop error..

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    86. Re:Just now? by cloverprince · · Score: 1

      It is pretty normal in China to do short-term "face-project" like this. Not only Beijing city does this, schools/universities/cooleges in China all seems used to doing such nasty jobs. In late 2007 when some "leaders" come to "inspect" in the universities, you'll see universities ordering all their students be in classroom from 8:00 to 22:00, just to show the "leaders" that their students are "hard-working". Luckily, due to lack (and the impossibility) of reinforcement to such order, it does not cause too much catastrophic result. By the way, I have been living in Beijing for more than 10 years, and have been quite healthy. I am not sure whether American athletes will suffer breathing problems.

    87. Re:Just now? by kasmq1 · · Score: 1

      we'll the US did sign the Kyoto protocol , but as we see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol it has failed to ratify the damn thing, due to it being a rock in the evolution of it's economy. 'nuf said. The problem is that there are too many problems political,economical, sociological that develop when you start ratifying a protocol like that.

    88. Re:Just now? by Inda · · Score: 1

      You can, you just change the burner nozzles to squirt atomised diesel instead of powered coal.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    89. Re:Just now? by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      I could agree that population control is part of of the role of a government

      Yes because we don't have enough Governmental control over our lives as it is..... let's give them the power to regulate our reproductive systems as well. Granted, I know what you are trying to say but how do you enforce it without stepping on peoples rights?

      But I'd like to remind you that China has a population control policy and that most people in western countries criticize the Chinese government for that

      There's a lot to criticize. Do you not find forced sterilizations (confirmed by many independent researchers) and abortions (not confirmed to the best of my knowledge but commonly rumored) abhorrent? Look at what happened to all the parents that lost their only child during the recent earthquake in Sichuan province. Now the Government is going to offer to reverse some of those forced sterilizations. How nice of them.

      Anyway, you can't have it both ways. It's either per capita for each country, or total for each country. You can't compare the US to Canada on a per capita basis, and then compare the US to China on a total basis. It's one or the other.

      So I have to pretend that China has zero impact on the environment just because my country is more developed and releases more CO2 per capita? Yeah, that's logical......

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    90. Re:Just now? by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      True, but only because the governments of Western nations impose all sorts of enviromental regulations making it too cost prohibited to manufacture locally.

      You mean making it cheaper to manufacture overseas.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    91. Re:Just now? by griffjon · · Score: 1

      Funnily enough right next to that, where all those millions of tonnes of coal are moved each year there's a giant wind turbine, and the CSIRO has an alternative energy research centre overlooking the train yard that delivers the coal to the port that's also got wind turbines on top...

      That, sir, is made of awesomeness and ponies.

      --
      Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
    92. Re:Just now? by joggle · · Score: 1

      True, but only because the governments of Western nations impose all sorts of enviromental regulations making it too cost prohibited to manufacture locally.

      Also not true. Labor in China is a heck of a lot cheaper than in Western countries. Factory line workers often only get $3 per day. Where the heck can you get labor that cheap in the West?

      Even if we had no enforced environmental regulations (like in China) the companies still couldn't compete with labor that cheap.

    93. Re:Just now? by Ced_Ex · · Score: 1

      My analogy is just describing what's going on right now... with developed nations (the fatties) telling developing nations (the skinnies) to reduce their consumption.

      Of course telling the fatties to reduce is much more effective.

      --
      Live forever, or die trying.
    94. Re:Just now? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      This is an astonishingly pointless thing to say. Cancer is, for the most part, something you get to die of when you're old. Life expectancy went up, more people got old, thus more people got cancer.

      Life expectancy didn't go up sufficiently to explain the boom in cancer. People living an unpolluted life with good nutrition can live longer than we do in the USA today; in fact, the Pomo peoples of northern California regularly lived to be over 100 years of age for these reasons (they don't fare so well any more, but twinkies and booze have both become heavily entrenched.)

      Yes, we would expect increasing life expectancy to increase cancer rates. No, we would not expect it to increase this much, just like we would not expect the current solar activity to cause the observed warming of the globe. Cancer rates of the types we expect to see from irritants are still on the rise.

      The simple truth is that we know that things we have started doing since the industrial revolution are carcinogenic and we know that we're doing more and more of them. Does that really sound like a good idea to you?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    95. Re:Just now? by Free+the+Cowards · · Score: 1

      in fact, the Pomo peoples of northern California regularly lived to be over 100 years of age for these reasons

      Got a reference for that? I can't find anything in a quick google search. I would be shocked if this were true for any reasonable definition of "regularly". People, even clean-living healthy people, just do not live to be that old on anything like a regular basis, especially not without access to modern medical care.

      The simple truth is that we know that things we have started doing since the industrial revolution are carcinogenic and we know that we're doing more and more of them. Does that really sound like a good idea to you?

      Overall? Yes, it does sound like a good idea. You can't really dispute that the industrial revolution has been an enormous net win in terms of both quality of life and life expectancy. If you want to go back three hundred years and live a short, nasty life as a medieval farm worker, go ahead, but I'm going to pass. Yes, it would be better if we could do all this stuff without the pollutants, but I see no evidence that this is possible yet on a large scale.

      --
      If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
    96. Re:Just now? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Got a reference for that? I can't find anything in a quick google search.

      Sorry, we took the book back to the library long ago.

      I would be shocked if this were true for any reasonable definition of "regularly". People, even clean-living healthy people, just do not live to be that old on anything like a regular basis, especially not without access to modern medical care.

      That's what you've been led to believe, yes.

      That doesn't make it correct.

      Before whitey arrived here with all his diseases garnered from animal husbandry, there was very little to kill the natives outside of dangerous quadrupeds - which can be reasoned with, and I don't mean this in some hippy-dippy "psychic communication with bears" way, either. Seen that movie Grizzly Man? The guy was a fruitbat who ended up as a snack, but he lived with grizzlies (one of the two species of bear believed to kill people without provocation, the other being white or at least piss-colored) for years and did quite well for himself. Mountain lions are pretty skittish around anything taller than they are in most conditions, too.

      You can't really dispute that the industrial revolution has been an enormous net win in terms of both quality of life and life expectancy.

      In most ways, this is true. But then, we in the industrial world spend more hours working than medieval serfs or basically any indigenous peoples still following their own traditions.

      Yes, it would be better if we could do all this stuff without the pollutants, but I see no evidence that this is possible yet on a large scale.

      Actually, I see not evidence that it is necessary that we pollute. The issue is what we choose to do with the pollutants. A lot of them can be converted into something less harmful or even benign with the application of enough energy, but that costs money (and produces more pollution as we currently operate) so we don't do it.

      It's long past time to terminate the charters of some of these corporations which seem to be doing their best to kill us all.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    97. Re:Just now? by Free+the+Cowards · · Score: 1

      That's what you've been led to believe, yes.

      That doesn't make it correct.

      Well you know, I could say the exact same thing about you. Without evidence, we're both just blowing smoke. Except that it's a hell of a lot more reasonable to suppose that these indigenous, primitive people enjoyed lifespans similar to those of indigenous, primitive people everywhere else than to suppose that they somehow managed to double their life expectancies through "clean living".

      In any case, "it just costs money" is a worthless argument. If it costs more money than is available, it won't happen. Industries live or die on thin margins, and you can't just say, let's spend a few trillion dollars installing expensive pollution control devices on every single polluter in the entire world. When I say "possible", I mean economically feasible as well as merely technologically possible.

      Zero pollution is a fine goal and we should certainly work towards it, but getting to there from here is not a simple matter of waking up one day and deciding not to do it any more.

      --
      If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
    98. Re:Just now? by DarthJohn · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I think I see it better now.

      Some people have water in a nice convenient place, but it takes longer for water to get there than they are taking it out.

      So as wells run dry people have to keep digging deeper and more wells. Eventually they will have to transport water from somewhere that has surplus... that would be WAY more expensive and a BIG problem.

      Something like that I think.

    99. Re:Just now? by aharon · · Score: 1

      Yup. If the water can't come up from the ground, it has to be drawn from a river or a lake. It's quite an experience to visit Santa Fe and be shown the mighty Rio Grande branch there. There's a nice wide deep ditch where a river used to be, with a trickle of water moistening the bottom. Old graceful bridges cross the "river", or you can just walk across if you don't mid the mosquitoes and mud. The whole river is sucked out by upstream folks. I've seen dry creek beds before but this was a sight.
      The Aral sea in Russia- we're talking a freaking huge lake- has shrunk by 75% in this century, mostly as the water was piped out to cities and farms. There are not-so-old fishing villages miles from the latest shore, and dry cracked plains of mud with boat hulls embedded in them.
      This stuff is real, but impacts so few Americans that it's still off the radar to most. Good times ahead!

    100. Re:Just now? by gormanw · · Score: 1

      I couldn't agree more. There is too much money in cheap manufacturing. They get the power to run those plants through dirty coal plants as well as fuel oil plants. In the short term, they could start putting green roofs on their buildings. They have done a few, but nowhere near enough. I read an article on http://www.cleanerairforcities.blogspot.com/ about the ones they are building in Beijing.

  3. Air quality by Yvan256 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    athletes are at risk for low performance if the air quality cannot be brought down to acceptable levels

    Shouldn't that be "athletes are at risk for low performance if the air quality cannot be brought up to acceptable levels"?

    1. Re:Air quality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, there are athletes skipping the opening ceremonies altogether so they aren't affected by the air pollution as much. They won't fly into China/Beijing until the first day of their sporting event.
      I won't be holding my breath, this is one Olympics tainted maybe not by drugs but by air pollution!

    2. Re:Air quality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're the only one that's confused. Up/down are relative here. The topic is pollution. That's something to decrease.

      It's like those stupid arguments about air conditioning:

      Person #1: Turn up the air conditioning!
      Person #2: Don't you mean turn down the air conditioning?
      Person #3: Just tell me what you want me to do.

      Person #1 and Person #2 (in unison): Turn it [Up/Down]!!!
      Person #3: Hotter or colder?
      Person #1 and Person #2 (in unison): Hotter!

    3. Re:Air quality by philspear · · Score: 1

      In communist china, air quality brings YOU down. Gasping for air.

    4. Re:Air quality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Average times could be lower and the chances of records being broken become less.

      Yes and wouldn't the average times be higher?

    5. Re:Air quality by dnwq · · Score: 1

      Air quality indexes like the PSI are better if lower.

    6. Re:Air quality by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      That sounds strange if you ask me. I want "higher quality" things, not "lower quality".

    7. Re:Air quality by gnick · · Score: 1

      I won't be holding my breath...

      I guess that implies that you won't be going to Beijing to see the games.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    8. Re:Air quality by gnick · · Score: 1

      You're the only one that's confused. Up/down are relative here. The topic is pollution. That's something to decrease.

      It's like those stupid arguments about air conditioning:

      Person #1: Turn up the air conditioning!
      Person #2: Don't you mean turn down the air conditioning?
      Person #3: Just tell me what you want me to do.

      Person #1 and Person #2 (in unison): Turn it [Up/Down]!!!
      Person #3: Hotter or colder?
      Person #1 and Person #2 (in unison): Hotter!

      No. As air pollution goes down, air quality goes up. As the temperature on the thermostat is turned down, the room gets cooler. If somebody says "Turn up the air conditioning" in an attempt to warm the room up when they mean "Turn up the temperature on the thermostat", they're being unclear. "Turn up the air conditioning" typically means "Turn down the temperature on the thermostat". "Turn up the furnace" typically means "Turn up the temperature on the thermostat". It's not that complicated.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    9. Re:Air quality by gnick · · Score: 1

      Apparently, in this case, high quality air has a low quality index. Weird. But, TFS did say "quality" not "quality index".

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    10. Re:Air quality by MidnightBrewer · · Score: 1

      Nope, the grandparent is right. Quote: "Dr Angus Hunter warned that athletes are at risk for low performance if the air quality cannot be brought down to acceptable levels."

      "Quality" is the object, the verb is "lower". Dr. Hunter may be an expert on athlete performance, but not so good with the English. I think we get the point, though. :)

      --
      "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
  4. License plates by Scutter · · Score: 0

    based on whether the last digit of their license plates is even or odd

    Sucks for the guys whose plates end with a zero.

    --

    "Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
    1. Re:License plates by EmperorKagato · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      ----- You know you have ego issues when you register a domain in your name.
    2. Re:License plates by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 1

      Why?... Is there something special with that number relevant to what you quoted?

      --
      - These characters were randomly selected.
    3. Re:License plates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    4. Re:License plates by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      Nah, it really sucks for the guy whose license plate is pi sans the decimal

    5. Re:License plates by Deadstick · · Score: 5, Funny
      Sucks for the guys whose plates end with a zero.

      ...and who flunked math.

      rj

    6. Re:License plates by jellomizer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Any number that is even can be represneted in the terms of 2j where j is an integer any odd number can be represented in 2j-1 where J is an integer.

      So...
      2j=0
      j=0/2
      j=0
      0 is an integer. So 0 is even.

      Now lets check to see if 0 is odd.
      2j-1=0
      2j=1
      j=1/2
      j=0.5
      0.5 is not an integer so 0 is not odd

      therefore 0 is even.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    7. Re:License plates by fredrikj · · Score: 3, Informative

      I stared at your post for 10 seconds before realizing that 2j was supposed to represent an integer and that you were in fact not calling upon the quater-imaginary numeral system to prove the evenness of zero. Now that would have been overkill :-)

      The license plate issue, by the way, is actually discussed in the "evenness of zero" Wikipedia article:

      The nominal evenness of zero is relevant to odd-even rationing systems. Cars might be allowed to drive or to purchase gasoline on alternate days, according to the parity of the last digit in their license plates. Half of the numbers in a given range end in 0, 2, 4, 6, 8 and the other half in 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, so it makes sense to include 0 with the other even numbers. The relevant legislation sometimes stipulates that zero is even to avoid confusion.[25] In fact, an odd-even restriction on driving in 1977 Paris did lead to confusion when the rules were unclear. On an odd-only day, the police avoided fining drivers whose plates ended in 0, because they did not know whether 0 was even.[26]

    8. Re:License plates by Alzheimers · · Score: 1

      Like if you live in Alabama?

    9. Re:License plates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *Ohhhhhhhhhhhh*, that's why my if then else is failing. Duh. How about some context here?

    10. Re:License plates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "In death he has a name"

      -Fight club

    11. Re:License plates by MagdJTK · · Score: 1

      An even number is any integer divisible by two.
      2 * 0 = 0 so 0 is divisible by two and even.

    12. Re:License plates by Danny+Rathjens · · Score: 1

      Do you know why 2 is odd?

      It's the only even prime number.

    13. Re:License plates by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      All integers are divisible by two. I presume you mean divisible by two AND that have a whole number as result.

    14. Re:License plates by HeroreV · · Score: 1

      The replies to the parent are even more disappointing than the parent.

  5. Black wind by Stavr0 · · Score: 1

    But how are they going to stop the sand storms coming from Mongolia?

    1. Re:Black wind by the_other_chewey · · Score: 5, Funny

      But how are they going to stop the sand storms coming from Mongolia?

      50 million chinese blowing the other way.

    2. Re:Black wind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as they don't all jump at the same time. There was a threat that only the Weekly World News reported that the Chinese wanted to shift the orbit of the earth. Unfortunately, I can't find their full story online, but you can imagine the potential such an effort would have, if properly coordinated.

    3. Re:Black wind by LS · · Score: 1

      Sand storms in Beijing generally only happen during the spring, so there is virtually no danger of a sand storm during the olympics.

      LS

      --
      There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
    4. Re:Black wind by maxume · · Score: 1

      You have now offended the fates. Clearly it will happen.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  6. American athletes should not wear masks. by tjstork · · Score: 1, Funny

    If the whole world sees American athletes dressed up with goofy masks, they will see the USA as a bunch of sissies, especially if the Chinese -don't-.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:American athletes should not wear masks. by courtarro · · Score: 4, Funny

      If the whole world sees American athletes dressed up with goofy masks, they will see the USA as a bunch of sissies, especially if the Chinese -don't-.

      Yeah, 'cause real men get pollution-related lung cancer!

    2. Re:American athletes should not wear masks. by philspear · · Score: 1

      We'll just get france to wear full scuba gear, which they were likely planning anyway!

    3. Re:American athletes should not wear masks. by philspear · · Score: 0

      Sorry for the double post, it just occurs to me that if they do wear masks and blow everyone else out of the water, that might be the story rather than "americans are wimps." You know, show the world we still have brains. Maybe we could also write on the masks "you know, a lot of of us were actually opposed to invading Iraq."

    4. Re:American athletes should not wear masks. by corbettw · · Score: 2, Funny

      Like the old saying: anyone can quit smoking; it takes a real man to face cancer.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    5. Re:American athletes should not wear masks. by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

      If the whole world sees American athletes dressed up with goofy masks, they will see the USA as a bunch of sissies, especially if the Chinese -don't-.

      I just spent some time in Bavaria, where I kept running into 100+ groups of Chinese tourists. In the beautiful, perfectly clear air of the Bavarian countryside, nearly everyone, from the 10 year old kids to the 70 year old adults, wore breathing masks.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    6. Re:American athletes should not wear masks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Maybe the masks are for keeping the dirty air from their lungs (and cities) from polluting the Bavarian air. ;)

  7. Environmental Wackos by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Interesting

    China is the one of the worst, if not THE WORST environmental disasters this world has ever had. They are having one HELL of a time trying to clean up the mess they've created for themselves.

    By the time the Olympics comes around, I hope that the Chineese government has enough Egg Foo Young on their face to cause them to loose face to the whole world.

    Then maybe, just maybe they'll clean up their act. Naaaa, what I am thinking.

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    1. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I don't understand why China was even considered for a place to have the Olympics let alone how they won that bid.

      They [the government] don't care about their people or the environment treating both like trash.

    2. Re:Environmental Wackos by moosesocks · · Score: 2, Insightful

      China is the one of the worst, if not THE WORST environmental disasters this world has ever had. They are having one HELL of a time trying to clean up the mess they've created for themselves.

      At least they seem to be acknowledging the problem for once.

      It's not much, but it's a start.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    3. Re:Environmental Wackos by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree with you in general regarding China's pollution problem, but the racist overtones (Egg Foo Young?) are unnecessary.

      That said, maybe if you look back at the industrial revolution in "cleaner" countries, we were just as bad. Read accounts of Liverpool in the 18th, 19th and early 20th century. Or how about chemical pollution in the US until the 1970s?

      China's position on pollution is no different than what other countries went through... the difference is just one of scale.

      This does not mean that China's attitude towards pollution is any more tenable, but it helps if we consider the processes by which other countries cleaned up their acts. Of note, grassroots support for a cleaner environment is problematic in China, given their political system, and the ease by which laws can be overlooked.

      But it doesn't reflect well on Americans (or other Westerners) to chastise China while ignoring our own sordid past.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    4. Re:Environmental Wackos by baomike · · Score: 1

      Take a look at India.

    5. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But it doesn't reflect well on Americans (or other Westerners) to chastise China while ignoring our own sordid past.

      You'd think they might have taken a look at our sordid past and learned to do things in a more sane way. In stead they took a look at our (westerners) sordid past and thought: "Hell, if they could do it so can we... times ten!".

    6. Re:Environmental Wackos by AxeTheMax · · Score: 1

      That's crap. The United States is the worst CO2 pollutor; historically and cumulatively. They are still the lead polluter per capita, and will be for the foreseeable future per capita; See a US government report at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CO2-by-country--1990-2025.png . The Chinese may now be lead polluters in particulate output.

      Among other polluting practices there are many that the US still leads in. See for instance total nuclear tests at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_tests#Nuclear_testing_by_country and high altitude tests at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_altitude_nuclear_explosion.

    7. Re:Environmental Wackos by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      Stalin tried his best to be the worst but mainly slaughtered his own people in slave labor camps and massive engineering schemes. He (and his successors) still did leave behind some gems of pollution hell.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    8. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least they seem to be acknowledging the problem for once.

      As far as I can see, they haven't "acknowledged" anything, except indirectly.

      And they have to go back to business-as-usual as soon as the Olympics are over, their economy must be taking a big hit by shutting down factories, restricting traffic, etc., etc.

    9. Re:Environmental Wackos by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      India's not in the greatest environmental shape either. It's had it's share of disasters as well.

      At least in China's case, while they are indeed taking a number of temporary measures to reduce pollution, they are indeed taking a number to reduce it permanently - a number of the dirtier factories aren't going to open back up, and a number are taking the downtime to install better pollution controls/production methods.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    10. Re:Environmental Wackos by mcwidget · · Score: 5, Funny

      Living the the US is barely tolerable and people die constantly

      Gee, that is bad. Over here in the UK, people only die once.

    11. Re:Environmental Wackos by Njovich · · Score: 1

      China is the one of the worst, if not THE WORST environmental disasters this world has ever had.

      It would be a lot easier to pressure China into cleaning up their mess if a certain western country reduced its own polution.

    12. Re:Environmental Wackos by Romancer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Dude, racist?

      "EGG" Foo Young on their face... as in Egg on their face. As in Mr T pitties the FOO that doesn't get a bit of localization in a bad pun. There's nothing racist about that remark that you didn't put there yourself. It's a joke that does not demean them as a race, or even say that they exibit stereotypical behavior. Just that they live in a region that introduced a type of cuisine. he did not even include the more typical dog ingredient jokes for the eastern nations that are much more typical of the belittling by mainstream comedians.

      I kinda take offence when people try to make general comments racist. If you stopped and thought about the whole racist issue you would find it disturbing that members of most races can use phrases and words that they do not allow other races to use without calling them racist. Isn't that the definition of racist? Treating a race differently because of their race? Allowing them to do something or forbiding them from something else based solely on their race? If we all kinda got the chip off our shoulders and let these comments go, the words would lose their power and that would be the end of at least a part of the problems we all face every day.

      The actions, are a different story of course and I acknowledge that, but the reaction to general comments are sometimes showing of more racist thoughts than the comments themselves.

      --


      ) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
      ) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
    13. Re:Environmental Wackos by joeasian · · Score: 1

      But it doesn't reflect well on Americans (or other Westerners) to chastise China while ignoring our own sordid past.

      Nicely put. Is there anyone old enough on Slashdot who remembers the Cuyahoga River Fire?

    14. Re:Environmental Wackos by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 1

      Racist undertones? There's a lot worse to be said stereotypically about asians than just a play of "egg on one's face".

      Other than that, your post is mostly correct except that there are some traditions which are batshit crazy compared to those of the Americans -- good examples are the mobile execution winnebagos and prenatal sex selection/abortion/female infanticide -- the systematic killing of girls soon after they are born.

      Not to say that the US dosen't have room for improvement(the Dutch and many others probably view Americans as savages ^_^ ), but touchy-feely cultural relativism is for the idealists, not the pragmatists. Would you rather live in China or Saudi Arabia?

    15. Re:Environmental Wackos by pavera · · Score: 0

      That's not exactly how it works...

      Its economics, when you are first starting out down the path towards industrialization from third world status, you don't have capital to invest to build the latest greatest greenest factories, you can't afford to spend an extra order of magnitude to build all your power production from solar and wind. You use the cheapest thing you've got (IE coal), and you get up and going.

      Same thing for the factories, for transportation, for all your infrastructure. Now, once you get up and running, and you are making money, now you have capital to invest to clean things up. It is simply economically untenable to go from pre-industrialized to industrialized in a green way.

    16. Re:Environmental Wackos by kannibal_klown · · Score: 1

      What I don't understand is how their measures will actually do much to clean the air within the next 3 weeks (which is when the Olympics start).

      Fine, let's say between removing pollution sources and planting more trees they reduce the overall production of pollution down to 40% (a MAJOR stretch, but just for the heck of it). Will that really mean anything over the course of of the 3 weeks they have left?

      At best, wouldn't it just be as polluted as maybe a few months ago which was already off the charts? I really doubt they'll be able to do much to clean the air between now and August. Sure, they'll make sure it doesn't increase much over that time (and maybe roll it back some) but it will still be a disaster.

      I'd almost say they should do it in pristine regions of various countries like plains and low-populated areas with less air pollution. But then said areas would be destroyed by the development of the Olympics infrastructure (stadiums and such) and mass influx of spectators.

    17. Re:Environmental Wackos by friedman101 · · Score: 1

      Absolutely the racist undertones should be avoided. There is an important thing to remember here - though. Unlike what was typically the case in America and Europe in the early 1900s, the Chinese government can silence detractors that want to hobble the economy in favor of protecting the environment. Also, America's "sordid" past was before most people were aware of concept of global warming and carcinogens. China is acting irresponsibly and the structure of their government almost ensures that things aren't going to get much better any time soon.

    18. Re:Environmental Wackos by ShaunC · · Score: 1, Funny

      I kinda take offence when people try to make general comments racist.

      POOL'S CLOSED

      --
      Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
    19. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Really? You're going to say that it's wrong to chastise China for their CURRENT behavior, when you admit that we KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE about the problems and how to correct them? For once, I thought that this would be a perfect opportunity to highlight liberal hypocrisy -- for instance, calling for the US to support Kyoto when countries with bigger problems wouldn't -- but you've gone and compounded it with the usual "we can't comment because we've had bloody hands" line. (AND BEEN MODDED TO A +5!) Good game, dude. Good game.

      No, I don't believe that man-induced global warming has been PROVEN, but all I'm asking for is for people who think there's a problem to fix to hold other countries with larger problems to OUR CURRENT STANDARDS FIRST, THEN worry about further reducing American corporations' ability to compete in the global econom... er, further tighten our national emissions standards. (And I even make my living currently because of them!)

      This is exactly the same sort of argument that I hear about religions as well. People on the left scream to take Christianity out of schools (and bible study sessions, et. al.), yet we're using public tax dollars to put in Islamic-based schools in Detroit. Where's the moral outrage on the left over this? The point is: Why is it always the old white Christian guys who are the problem? Why is it bad for a fundie Christian to shoot a abortion clinic doctor (and it IS), but it's okay for a fundie Muslim to blow up a school bus full of kids? Why do they get a pass because "that's the only means that they have at their disposal?"

      I know I lose points for bringing religion into the argument here, but it's the SAME LOGICAL FALLACY. If you're going to hold people to a standard, then it has to be the SAME STANDARD. You don't get "evil offset credits" just because your rulers have held you back from entering the 20th century, let alone the 21st. And, then, while were all singing out of the same hymnal, let's PUT THE PRESSUE on those who are FURTHER AWAY FROM THE STANDARD, THEN worry about take the whole standard higher.

    20. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're absolutely right about our past being as dirty if not worse in some cases, but times have changed. Back then we didn't always know that the emissions from factories were a bad thing, or that dumping chemicals in lakes, rivers, etc. would ruin the water supply. Now I'm not defending all previous polluters because some did know it was bad and even tried to cover it up. However, China has no excuse. They know what they're doing is bad for the environment. There's no ignorance of the problems of pollution unless it's willful ignorance.

    21. Re:Environmental Wackos by maxume · · Score: 1

      Doctors have been able to fix loose face for years now.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    22. Re:Environmental Wackos by corbettw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem with ignoring Chinese (or Indian) pollution today because of American or European pollution 50 to 100 years ago is, they should've learned from us. When the West went through industrialization, we were trail blazers, and made a lot of mistakes. If Chinese leaders had any sense in them, they'd learn from our mistakes and avoid making the same ones. They're not, which is just a shame.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    23. Re:Environmental Wackos by Romancer · · Score: 0, Troll

      Oooookayyyy,

      "Well, maybe it wouldn't have been offensive if it had been spelled correctly. or if it hadn't been in quotes. Or if there had been anything of substance in the OP other than 'China's pullution is AWFUL'"

      "Less offensive if spelled correclty", I'll just leave alone, it stands as it's own argument.

      Quotes where?

      and since when did someones opinion have to include intelligent substance backing up an opinion when the subject even admits that the opinion is shared to such an extent as to warrant billions of dollars spent to correct it?

      --


      ) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
      ) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
    24. Re:Environmental Wackos by pcgamez · · Score: 1

      You can not compare say chemical pollution in the US during the 70's to Chemical pollution in China today for a number of reasons. Technologies for both production and pollution are drastically different today than they were even a decade ago, much less four. China has the lessons learned and the technology developed by other countries to work with. Them NOT using it is not a case of honest ignorance or lack of alternatives but a CHOICE to have pollution this bad for the sake of economic development.

    25. Re:Environmental Wackos by Smackintosh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Umm, perhaps it just isn't offensive at all and the Chinese can judge for themselves if they find it so instead of you somehow policing it for them.

      In the last fifty years or so we've made great strides in terms of racism, prejudice, and solving injustices for various groups - but it has tipped past the point of rationality. Now everyone's ego and self-esteem is some fragile, gossamer shell waiting to be broken by the smallest slight, the barest hint of negativity.

      I am sorry, but we've become a society of wusses. We should be able to poke fun at people (and yes, even groups of them) when the intent is not evil. We should be able to spank our children when they don't act appropriately. We should be able to give awards to the winners and not to the losers. We should make people responsible for their own actions.

      I'm really appreciative of all that we have today and the progress we've made, but I'm also very ashamed of some of the things we've lost.

    26. Re:Environmental Wackos by QuantumRiff · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because they could actually put in place the infrastructure in time. Look at it, they have basically built one of the largest airports in the world in the last few years, built all the olympic venues and buildings needed... (most olympics only build a few buildings, and use existing ones for events when they can). They have built hotels, highways, light rail (from the new airport to downtown) and all sorts of infrastructure in a short time frame. Its pretty impressive what you can do when you have the political will, and a lack of environmental concerns, and don't care what the people think...

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    27. Re:Environmental Wackos by GreatBunzinni · · Score: 1

      It took a bit of time because fascist regimes aren't accustomed to deal with outrageous complains about pollution hazards from overbearing, unpatriotic citizens.

      --
      Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
    28. Re:Environmental Wackos by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      I hope that the Chineese government has enough Egg Foo Young on their face to cause them to loose face to the whole world.

      Unlikely, as egg foo young is an american dish.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    29. Re:Environmental Wackos by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Racist overtones? Gee whiz. It was a play on words, and not racist at all. Racist would be if I call them "slants" or "Chinks" or whatever, or making derogatory remarks about Chinese as whole people, which I'm not.

      Suggesting racism, where there is none doesn't help discussions about racism. I was actually talking about the stupid government, not the people.

      Idiots like yourself are not helping like you think you are.

      As for the polution, they have access to the same polution controls we have.

      We didn't have them originally and had to develop them. They have access to them (because they've stolen the tech) they just choose not to use them because they have tools like you making excuses for them.

      The difference between having polution and then developing the controls to keep it in check, and having the tools and not using them because it is economically advantageous not to, is huge.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    30. Re:Environmental Wackos by piemcfly · · Score: 2, Interesting

      haha.
      Sorry for laughing at that. But the only reason they 'acknowledge' natural disasters right now is to offset the realization of the general public that most of the deaths during the last few earthquakes and floods were due to massive corruption in government and building surveillance.

      They create a new enemey ('nature'), to prevent from the Party getting the blame it deserves. 'quake lakes' my ass. There's a lot of building contractors and local officials in china that should be hanged for their corruption. Official 'acknowledgements' notwithstanding.

      Oh, and the 'clean' air for the olympics of course. Really, no. China has been polluting north-east asia for decades now. You might want to check out the satellite maps of the wonderful Yangtze and Yellow river deltas.
      You don't even need false color too see that they're pumping all sorts of shit into the oceans.

      And unlike what others below me have stated, it's not just a matter of scale. Rapid development in Europe and the US, no matter how destructive it was, also kickstarted environmentalism, the protected natural park systems and both private and public efforts to safeguard the environment, thanks to the openness of the government (that is 'democracy'). China has no such thing...

    31. Re:Environmental Wackos by Binestar · · Score: 1

      China is the one of the worst, if not THE WORST environmental disasters this world has ever had.

      It would be a lot easier to pressure China into cleaning up their mess if a certain western country reduced its own polution.

      You believe that?

      --
      Do you Gentoo!?
    32. Re:Environmental Wackos by Jorophose · · Score: 1

      China's position on pollution is no different than what other countries went through... the difference is just one of scale.

      Except, you know, we learned from our mistakes.

      They didn't learn anything from anyone. All they've been doing is stealing other countries' innovations (especially with cars and military-related devices) and lagging behind on what doesn't make them threatning.

      You know, lithium-phosphate batteries would have been easy for them to produce, gaining them electric cars. Electricity from coal, stored in those batteries, running cars.

      But no, they don't learn. It's sad because nobody does.

      "Nothing changed, only I changed, I grew hard and bitter..."

    33. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously? So if an Asian co-worker happened to do or say something embarrassing and you said, "Dude, you have some Egg Foo Young on your face..." you don't think that co-worker would find it racist? How about your other co-workers or your boss?

    34. Re:Environmental Wackos by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which western country are you speaking of? The US ?

      We have some of the strictest laws in place, thank you very much. So much restriction that we've lost all of our manufacturing to places like Mexico and China that don't have such restrictions in place.

      Could we do better? Sure! However we are leading, where many places aren't following because it is economically advantageous not to follow.

      What is more disturbing however is the whole "Blame America First" crap that you seem to subscribe to. People like you are idiots and tools against real reform, because you can't give credit where it is due.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    35. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you figure that. For one thing we didn't know how much damage we were doing during the industrial revolution. China doesn't have that excuse. A lot of China's infrastructure is relatively new so what excuse can for not putting in control measures other than cost?

      Oh yeah that was the whole point of moving to China, get away from all those costly regulations.

    36. Re:Environmental Wackos by SuseLover · · Score: 1

      Except when we did it, the technologies to scrub emissions and the clean methods of raw material mining & production did not yet exist. We spend billions of $$ over decades to develop them. The technologies now exist to allow clean(er) production but the Chinese refuse to spend the extra $$ to install the devices and put the methodologies in place to keep us hooked on their cheap dirty manufacturing capabilities.

    37. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh get over yourself; there were no racist overtones in that post. I suppose you've never heard the phrase "egg on your face"? The poster was simply trying to be witty.

    38. Re:Environmental Wackos by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      But it doesn't reflect well on Americans (or other Westerners) to chastise China while ignoring our own sordid past.

      Only if you make the mistaken (and ignorant) assumption that the past faults of the West somehow gives the China of today a free pass.

    39. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm half Asian (Taiwanese) and thought it was funny actually. Mostly because what he was saying is absolutely true (and because I believe that everyone needs to learn to laugh at themselves; I don't do politically correct/fake BS). The Chinese hold "face" above basically anything else. Most would rather present a "look at how well off we are" (or in this case "how clean our city is") than admit to having so much as a blemish on their past. I've lived in various place throughout Asia and have witnessed this very attitude first hand. My own mother is even like this.

      The Chinese (and to a lesser extent other Asian races) are very racist. They won't say it to your face, but it is how many of them feel. The Chinese are on the highest rung of humanity. Of course they will still act friendly towards the "white devils" in order to make deals.

      I would not be surprised in the slightest if all of the cleanup done for the Olympics is completely forgotten when it's all over. To them the "outsiders" would have been given a good presentation and they can go back to their old ways, spending the least while producing the most possible.

      None of this is meant to be slanderous. As I said before, half of my family is Chinese, so I have a pretty good view of how it is in Chinese society.

    40. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not too informed about the work that other cities have done for the Olympics, but in Vancouver, we're doing everything you mentioned China doing.
      Large upgrades to the airport, most (if not all) the Olympic venues are new buildings, the highway to Whistler is being so re-built you could call it a completely new highway, new light rail from the airport to downtown Vancouver (the Canada line sky-train). There is a practically an entirely new borough of Vancouver being built to house the athletes, which people have bought to own after the Olympics (athletes get it first).

      So, I'm not so sure China is doing anything special. I won't touch on whether or not they should have gotten the games, but nothing you mentioned seems to be that great.

    41. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does a country with 4x the population we have now get a pass on being "the worst" because we polluted back when we were 1/4 our current population? Does the 16x factor here not matter?

    42. Re:Environmental Wackos by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      By the time the Olympics comes around, I hope that the Chineese government has enough Egg Foo Young on their face to cause them to loose face to the whole world.

      You presume that they care what the rest of the world thinks about them. The Chinese view the Olympic Games through a nationalistic lens which means, unfortunately, that they will consider the games a "success" no matter what the west says. It was a mistake to believe that China would keep the promises that it made to win the Olympic Games in the first place and now they will believe (perhaps not incorrectly) that even though Europe and the United States whined and complained about human rights, Tibet, and the environment they (the Chinese) had their way with us in spite of the protests because they are a "great nation" and the world must "respect their way of doing things." It will be a major setback in getting the Chinese up to acceptable first world standards with regard to human and workers' rights and the environment.

    43. Re:Environmental Wackos by dr_d_19 · · Score: 1

      They are having one HELL of a time trying to clean up the mess they've created for themselves.

      They are producing YOUR (as a group) food, toys, clothes and appliances because you are too greedy to accept anything but the lowest of lowest prices. So it's fair to say that you helped create this problem.

    44. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, maybe it wouldn't have been offensive if it had been spelled correctly.

      Dude, I don't think slashdot supports that character set.

    45. Re:Environmental Wackos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China is the one of the worst, if not THE WORST environmental disasters this world has ever had. They are having one HELL of a time trying to clean up the mess they've created for themselves.

      Like so much other people around in the West, you certainly think that Chinese people should go backward 30 or 100 years, stop heating their homes, stop eating meat and rice, stop building roads and skyscrapers. I'll ask the next Beijinger I'll meet right at the corner to give his son's car, so you'll have three, ok? and give you the meat they prepared to eat for next sunday, so you get a bit more fat, ok?

      Joke apart, China is in the process of giving a better life to a quater of all human beings, at a fast pace. They have problems, they know about them, and they'll fix them their way.

    46. Re:Environmental Wackos by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      China is going through its industrial revolution. America and Europe did the same thing 1 to 2 centuries ago. They are not really any "dirtier" than a coal burning industrial city of the last century. The only difference is that they are trying to bring a billion people through that revolution vs a few hundred million.

    47. Re:Environmental Wackos by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      So if I were to say that if Americans were to bomb , the macdonalds would hit the fan, you'd find that racist against Americans?

      Not even as just a racist overtone?

      Didn't think so. You're just exposing your own condascending nature, thinking the chinese overly sensitive and in need of protection against western opinion.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
  8. Shutting Down PCB Factories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just got an email from my PCB Fabrication house :

    "For our Printed Circuit Board customers using Chinese vendors, please be aware of the following air quality policy announcement from Chinese authorities:

    In preparation for the Olympics, China has announced a factory shutdown for 9 weeks to clear smog and improve air quality in a 200 kilometer radius of Beijing. The shutdown begins July 17th and will extend until September 20th. Beijing, Tianjin, Hebei, Shanxi, Inner Mongolia and Shandong provinces are affected by the shutdown.

    If air quality does not improve before the start of the Olympics, there may be an expansion of the shutdown. There are concerns there could also be a bottleneck at two main ports. "

    Wonder how it will affect Chip prices

    1. Re:Shutting Down PCB Factories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't imagine it will have much effect on prices as China isn't really a major player in the potato market.

    2. Re:Shutting Down PCB Factories by RichMan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Big chip production is done off shore in Taiwan. Not affected. And a lot more around Shanghai. Not affected.

      Page 10 of document with world map of IC plants
      does not show an FABs around Beijing in 2005.

      IC fabrication does not have a big supply chain. Just sand and rare elements as inputs.

      PCB and product manufacturing can be expected to be hit in strange ways. There are product paths, for connectors, cable assemblies, etc, that no one really understands that could be going through the affected area.

    3. Re:Shutting Down PCB Factories by RichMan · · Score: 2, Informative

      Opps mistaken. As of 2005 there were a 0.35 and 0.8 lines in Beijing. But again very little appear to be some plants in Tianjin. Overall this will be 1% of global IC manufacturing. But if it affects a supply chain anything downstream will be hit.

    4. Re:Shutting Down PCB Factories by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      This is where companies can shine. They should spend some money cleaning-up their emissions, then they could continue to operate during those 9 weeks (with permission from the government of course) and actually profit from improving the environment.

    5. Re:Shutting Down PCB Factories by Alzheimers · · Score: 1

      Support NAFTA - eat Doritos!

    6. Re:Shutting Down PCB Factories by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I thought IC production mostly produced water pollution, not so much air pollution. I'm probably wrong, but if I'm right, then they don't need to shut down for the olympics unless the effluent is going into the pool.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Shutting Down PCB Factories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you think the press release was an excuse to take off work and sell their products at a temporarily high markup? Interesting.

    8. Re:Shutting Down PCB Factories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I received the same email from Advanced Circuit. Here's the full message:

      On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:31 PM, John Kerschen wrote:
      Dear Anonymous Coward,

      For our Printed Circuit Board customers using Chinese vendors, please be aware of the following air quality policy announcement from Chinese authorities:

      In preparation for the Olympics, China has announced a factory shutdown for 9 weeks to clear smog and improve air quality in a 200 kilometer radius of Beijing. The shutdown begins July 17th and will extend until September 20th. Beijing, Tianjin, Hebei, Shanxi, Inner Mongolia and Shandong provinces are affected by the shutdown.

      If air quality does not improve before the start of the Olympics, there may be an expansion of the shutdown. There are concerns there could also be a bottleneck at two main ports.

      All this to say that if you have a PCB vendor in the affected area, we are available to take care of your printed circuit board requirements. In addition to our large fabrication facility here in Aurora, we also have offshore partners in other non-affected countries that are available to handle the larger volumes.

      We are currently offering "Half Time" Specials (142 and 244), and we will turn your board orders in half the time at no extra cost. If you have expedited needs, we specialize in quick turns and can even supply boards over the weekend, if required.

      Check out all our Specials for both rigid and flexible circuits. If you have any questions, I will be most happy to assist you.

      Best Regards,

      John Kerschen
      Sales Manager
      Advanced Circuits

  9. Yeah... by Otter · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Arguably these are all short-term measures, just designed to control air quality for the time when the Olympics are on," says Dr Andy Jones.

    Ummm, no kidding? What does he mean, "arguably"? It's like how Athens temporarily incarcerated the city's thousands of stray dogs and then turned them all loose when the Games ended.

    1. Re:Yeah... by rikkards · · Score: 1

      Or the Atlanta police escorted the bums to the edge of town and told them to keep walking
      (not sure if that really happened, but I heard about it on the internets so it must be true)

    2. Re:Yeah... by Bieeanda · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yup. Cities and countries scramble to host the Olympics, but the only long-term effects are overwhelmingly negative. The host city ends up with massive debt and little else, since the surge in tourism is temporary and interest in using the purpose-built facilities peaks much lower after the Games have ended.

    3. Re:Yeah... by bobdotorg · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's like how Athens temporarily incarcerated the city's thousands of stray dogs and then turned them all loose when the Games ended.

      A fate much better than that of the half million or so stray cats in Beijing:
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-528694/Olympics-clean-Chinese-style-Inside-Beijings-shocking-death-camp-cats.html

      (sorry to link to such a rag, but it's the only one that popped up on my Google search.)

      --
      __ Someday, but not this morning, I'll finally learn to use the preview button.
    4. Re:Yeah... by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 1

      Well, if you ignore the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics that were very successful including a more than $100 million profit.

    5. Re:Yeah... by Darktyco · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Call me crazy, but couldn't this "cat culling" cause a surge in the cities rat population?

    6. Re:Yeah... by TummyX · · Score: 1

      Kind of like how during the cultural revolution, sparrow culling (designed to spare crops and seeds from the birds) caused a major surge in insect population - destroying crops.

  10. Signs by Amorymeltzer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Arguably these are all short-term measures, just designed to control air quality for the time when the Olympics are on

    Is it obvious to anyone else that that statement should be a sign? If you have to reduce pollution so athletes don't cripple their records, shouldn't you, I don't know, try and stop it forever? I honestly hope no records are broken, and that every athlete in an event outside performs terribly compared to history, so hopefully a few more people might open their damned eyes.

    --
    I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
    1. Re:Signs by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Is it obvious to anyone else that that statement should be a sign? If you have to reduce pollution so athletes don't cripple their records, shouldn't you, I don't know, try and stop it forever?

      Their goal is not to make people healthy all the time. Their goal is to be the next #1 world's superpower. That doesn't require extending life expectancy.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Signs by ljgshkg · · Score: 1

      They really have plan to do it. But right now, they're busy with lots of stuff.

      After the Olympics, they'll be on their track to start the big reorganization of federal departments and department structures. A lot of departments and bureaus will be merged.

      The position of Environmental Protection Bureau will then be rised to become the Environmental Protection Department, which will grant it with a much higher position and power compare to right now.

  11. Cween Up You Aiw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    It werery impowtant yeu cween up you aiw.

    1. Re:Cween Up You Aiw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't the Aubrey de Grey article, that was last week!

      thanks you, no check prease

    2. Re:Cween Up You Aiw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was horribly racist. I think I speak for all Chinese when I say back to you:
      "Ching chong wang, wah ah-so."

  12. So they should be done .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. in time for the 2012 Olympics.

  13. Just like a 10 year old... by EmagGeek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When mom comes around saying he can go play when his room is clean, he frantically shoves the mess into the closet...

  14. Cram Time by AkaKaryuu · · Score: 1

    You know, I used to cram before big tests all the time back in highschool. Did papers at the last minute... really didn't care about the subject matter until the final hour. I got by. Somehow though, I think China is a little to late to make any (significant) changes before the games begin.

  15. Now all they need is little Chocolate donuts by wardk · · Score: 1

    worked for Belushi

  16. Danger Will Robinson by RichMan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It will be interesting how this will play out in the social/economical dynamics of China.

    Will the employees be paid during the shutdown?

    Have downstream manufactures in other areas made provisions to get alternate input sources?

    Will there be any unexpected interruptions in the supply chain? Either domestic consumption or export goods.

    If downstream factories in other areas have to shutdown there will not be government support, there will be unhappy workers.

    Having unhappy idle workers while the government is telling everyone to be happy about the Olympics is not a good thing.

    Also if US orders for Christmas are down because of US domestic fears then some idled factories might not find it easy to restart.

    1. Re:Danger Will Robinson by Tweenk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If downstream factories in other areas have to shutdown there will not be government support, there will be unhappy workers. Having unhappy idle workers while the government is telling everyone to be happy about the Olympics is not a good thing.

      Nobody would dare to oppose or express discontent at anything the government does in order to ensure the success of the Olympic Games. It's not even a matter of profit or worldwide publicity anymore. It's a matter of life and death. My Chinese penfriend says that she'll be "serving the Olympic" - this should give you an idea about their dedication. You may condemn their government, but if they can do anything properly at all, then it's motivating people to take action.

      --
      Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
    2. Re:Danger Will Robinson by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      It will be interesting how this will play out in the social/economical dynamics of China.

      perhaps not as interesting as you might think...

      Will the employees be paid during the shutdown?

      no

      Have downstream manufactures in other areas made provisions to get alternate input sources?

      yes, everyone knew in advance that the Chinese government was going to curtail or shut down the factories in and around Beijing and the surrounding regions.

      Will there be any unexpected interruptions in the supply chain? Either domestic consumption or export goods.

      probably not.

      If downstream factories in other areas have to shutdown there will not be government support, there will be unhappy workers.

      unhappy workers? You do realize this is China right? The government doesn't give a damn whether they are happy or not, they weren't elected remember? Their power derives from the gun (literally). If an average Chinese steps out of line then they send them to prison for 10 years and if they really step out of line then they "disappear" or are shot for "crimes against the state". The Chinese government doesn't play nice.

      Having unhappy idle workers while the government is telling everyone to be happy about the Olympics is not a good thing.

      The unhappy workers will be kicked out of Beijing and not allowed to return until they Olympics are over. In fact the Chinese authorities are already rounding up all of the homeless and other unsightly people and either kicking them out of the city or confining them to their respective slum housing districts and building walls around those districts so that the cameras will not see Beijing as it really is, but rather as the Chinese government would like to present it to the world, a clean and shiny city full of lots of "happy" people (who have been reminded that there will be consequences once the games are over and the western news coverage is gone if they dare to tell the truth).

      Also if US orders for Christmas are down because of US domestic fears then some idled factories might not find it easy to restart.

      Walmart will still sell whatever they can get out of China or anywhere else for cheap. They may be annoyed about supply not quite keeping up with demand, but then again this is Walmart that we are talking about. They will probably force their suppliers to eat the loss by forcing them to give them discounts in the future or kickbacks to compensate for the short term interruption of supply. Walmart is famous for playing hardball with their suppliers and if there is a loss to be taken then you can be pretty sure that the suppliers will take it and not Walmart.

    3. Re:Danger Will Robinson by Tom · · Score: 1

      It will be interesting how this will play out in the social/economical dynamics of China.

      I think you don't "get" the scale of China. It's four times as large as the USA in population. 350 factories will barely register in the overal economy of a country that size.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  17. A CITY WALL! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 4, Funny

    NOW I GOTTA BUILD CITY WALL TO KEEP CITY BUILDINGS CLEAN OR CITY PEOPLE GONNA COMPLAIN! GODDAMN MONGORIANS!!!

    (string of text to get around caps filter, asdfbvukavfkavukabuywerbvfyabsvsdbfjkdhafbukaddfbwdfghweynetuakfukyvbuaaaf)

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    1. Re:A CITY WALL! by PlatyPaul · · Score: 1

      You got "Mongorians" in there but failed to call it the "shitty wall"?

      Wow. Just... wow.

      --
      Misery loves company. Online misery loves unsuspecting random strangers.
    2. Re:A CITY WALL! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I didn't want to make the reference too obvious. Besides, it's funnier when you have to translate "city" to "shitty" on your own, at least IMO.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    3. Re:A CITY WALL! by miruku · · Score: 1

      oh christ dude, WP:BEANS!

      --
      MilkMiruku
  18. hello? by apodyopsis · · Score: 1

    hello, King Canute, is that you? (maybe one subtlety too far there. hmmm)

    1. Re:hello? by mzs · · Score: 1

      No there is a famous legend where he tried to command the tide.

    2. Re:hello? by In+hydraulis · · Score: 1

      The version I've read relates that, frustrated with his sycophantic courtiers and their exaggerated tales of his exploits, his intention was to demonstrate that he in fact could not command the tide.

  19. uh, wtf? by pak9rabid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    athletes are at risk for low performance if the air quality cannot be brought down to acceptable levels

    Uh..call me crazy, but shouldn't this have been something that should have been taken into serious consideration before choosing a place like this for the Olympics? I mean, I may not be an expert on human physiology, but it would seem to me that having clean air for the Olympic competitors to breathe would have ranked among one of the highest in the checklist for selecting a location for the Olympics.

    1. Re:uh, wtf? by ivan256 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure that the location was chosen using the time honored political methods...

      In other words, it was picked based on which locality was willing to bribe the judges the most, while at the same time having the best means with which to hide the bribes, or make them look legitimate.

    2. Re:uh, wtf? by goeken · · Score: 1

      athletes are at risk for low performance if the air quality cannot be brought down to acceptable levels

      Uh..call me crazy, but shouldn't this have been something that should have been taken into serious consideration before choosing a place like this for the Olympics? I mean, I may not be an expert on human physiology, but it would seem to me that having clean air for the Olympic competitors to breathe would have ranked among one of the highest in the checklist for selecting a location for the Olympics.

      I'll call you crazy, you forget the main reason that any place is picked for the Olympics, how well the Olympic comity is bribed.

    3. Re:uh, wtf? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, try something a little more greener than air, like money.

    4. Re:uh, wtf? by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

      Yea...I have no doubt that you are correct. I'm just optimistic I guess.

    5. Re:uh, wtf? by Evildonald · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What most people forget is that the Olympic Games isn't an alturistic event run by the goodness of people's hearts. It's a commercial event run by a very money hungry organisation. People question impartialness of judges.. but the judges are really no more than members of a very large board of a very lucractive company.

    6. Re:uh, wtf? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      I think part of the Olympic Committee's goals is to pick places like this in order to help develop them. They figure the city will make enough money from the even to afford these types of improvements.

    7. Re:uh, wtf? by rpj1288 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Which is exactly why Chicago is going to get the 2016 games. We've got the patent on the time honored political methods.

      --
      Marvin knew: "Think of a number, any number..."
    8. Re:uh, wtf? by JaffaKREE · · Score: 2, Informative

      One of the bigger efforts to make Beijing more reasonable for the olympics ? Adding "luxury items" soap and toilet paper to the bathrooms. http://www.news24.com/News24/Sport/Olympics2008/0,,2-9-2370_2351873,00.html We could complain, but the olympic committee won't be able to hear us while they're swimming in their scrooge mcduck-like money vaults. Next time, maybe we could pick a location that already has those "luxury items" in place ?

    9. Re:uh, wtf? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That kind of indignation would be more convincing if we'd heard it when the Olympics were held in Athens, or Los Angeles.

      But no, somehow it only becomes an issue when it's an unfashionable country like China...

    10. Re:uh, wtf? by derekw · · Score: 1

      athletes are at risk for low performance if the air quality cannot be brought down to acceptable levels

      but to bring down air quality levels, shouldn't they increase the factory output instead? i am confused.

  20. Non-sports stuff more interesting than the event by denis-The-menace · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I usually hate following the Olympic because it's such a bore.
    This year, all the stuff "around" the competition is WAY more interesting:
    -How many people will be arrested for silly things?
    -Will the athletes choke on the smog?
    -Will anything be allowed to be broadcasted out of China?
    -How many Chinese will try to defect?
    -And of course: The badly translated sign of the day.

    I don't think leaders of China will be able to stand have a spot light on them for the full 2 weeks. Imagine the fallout from regular Chinese people getting unfiltered news from the mouths of so many non-controlled people!

    --
    Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
  21. gym full of smokers by oliverthered · · Score: 4, Funny

    well it depends on what their smoking, a bit of crack/crystal meth or pcp may actually give them a boost.

    I'm all for setting up this alternative drugie Olympics, if altitude training is ok, or lifting weights then why not a crack pipe.

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    1. Re:gym full of smokers by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      I'm all for setting up this alternative drugie Olympics, if altitude training is ok, or lifting weights then why not a crack pipe.

      I agree but I don't think it should be a free-for-all. No, I think each event should come with a mandatory drug.

      Biathlon would be awesome with all the shooters jittery from doing eight lines of coke.

      The challenge of the 100 Meter Dash/2 meter water bong event could be greatly increased by placing a couch just off the track near the starting line (or maybe the finish?), with a couple big bags of Doritos on it.

      And how impressive would the Prozac Rowing events be? That's one hell of a coxswain who can get their crew to care enough to match the cadence.

      There's a lot of potential here.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    2. Re:gym full of smokers by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Marijuana boxing! "We're now in Round 153 of the first match, and a grand total of two punches have been thrown. Definitely an exciting match!"

  22. Space Vacuum by lymond01 · · Score: 4, Funny

    With people considering a space elevator, why not consider a space vacuum cleaner? A long tube with one end in space and the other split like, say, a flying spaghetti monster, with multiple ends to suck up particulates. And little dogs.

    1. Re:Space Vacuum by captaindomon · · Score: 1

      Because if you could build said tube, there would be no vacuum at the end on earth. The weight of the air in the tube would precisely counter-act the effect.

      --
      Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
    2. Re:Space Vacuum by wattrlz · · Score: 1

      You do realize the weight of the column of air filling the tube would prevent it from generating much suction... Funny, though.

    3. Re:Space Vacuum by 3waygeek · · Score: 2, Funny
    4. Re:Space Vacuum by MagdJTK · · Score: 1

      He said a space vacuum cleaner. Presumably there would be a pump or two included.

    5. Re:Space Vacuum by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      With people considering a space elevator, why not consider a space vacuum cleaner? A long tube with one end in space and the other split like, say, a flying spaghetti monster, with multiple ends to suck up particulates. And little dogs.

      What shall we call such a colossal cleaning machine? Mega Maid?

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    6. Re:Space Vacuum by domukun367 · · Score: 1

      You made cheese come out my nose...

      On a serious note, you may be twiddled for using the FSM in an unauthorised simile.

      --
      Please don't send a Word document when a text file will do the job.
    7. Re:Space Vacuum by wattrlz · · Score: 1

      I stand by what I said. When was the last time you, or anyone, pumped something 62 miles straight up?

  23. Olympic locations by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 1

    OR, you could just choose locations for the Olympics that aren't already polluted... nah, let's hold them somewhere that has air quality so bad it could affect the outcome of the races.

    --
    stuff |
  24. Atlanta Olympics by Frankie70 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Happens in every olympics.

    During the Atlanta Olympics, many homeless people were taken for a bus ride to different part of the state.
    Many of the homeless were jailed for silly offenses.

    http://www.straight.com/olympic-cities-punish-poor

  25. I need new glasses, I thought it said... by starglider29a · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...INCINERATED the city's thousands of stray dogs.

    I couldn't see how that would help the air quality. I guess the word "temporarily" should have clued me in.

  26. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by trytoguess · · Score: 1

    Huh... you just made me relize THAT could be the reasons why Beijing was chosen for the Olympics. Few care about the sports themselves, but the drama... ah now that's a cash cow.

  27. Western world's creation by failedlogic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Its fine and fair to blame the Chinese government for not bringing up tougher industrial anto-pollution laws. We are also being narrow-minded in saying this is alll a Chinese problem.

    The Western world has made China one giant production facility. All the really toxic production facilities - PCBs, paper (increasingly), steel and other metals, etc. are all being made in China. And they're making our clothes, food (which I *dont* buy), and so on. The shipping yards in China are the largest in the world for good reason.

    I'm buying made in the USA or Canada - first, less pollution in transportation, saves jobs, and (should) be higher quality and safer.

    China is overpopulated, yes, and thats a problem they (and we all have) to work to solve. Even if they had reduced pollution say by even 80% over the last decade, there's still too much being produced and too many people. We'd still have a problem.

    I don't think for many reasons it was wise of IOC to approve China. Living in the city of the host of the next Games, development ain't all that environmentally friendly either. Sea-Sky highway being one of them.

    1. Re:Western world's creation by novakreo · · Score: 1

      I'm buying made in the USA or Canada - first, less pollution in transportation, saves jobs, and (should) be higher quality and safer.

      I assume you typed this on your American- or Canadian-made computer?

      --
      O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
    2. Re:Western world's creation by failedlogic · · Score: 1

      No. But, I'm using a public terminal .... so I never bought it. ;)

      I can't, unfortunately, buy everything made in the USA or Canada. But I'm trying.

    3. Re:Western world's creation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm buying made in the USA or Canada - first, less pollution in transportation, saves jobs, and (should) be higher quality and safer.

      I'm going to call your bluff. What consumer electronics have you purchased over the last five years? Any made in the west? Probably not. Clothes? Where do you get clothes that are not made in China, Mexico or India? How about your car? Its fuel? What about the coal and gas used by your power company. Most is imported from the usual suspects. We have no choice.

      Exactly what are you buying made here in the USA? Again, we have little choice. If the stores only stock crap from China, that's all we can buy.

    4. Re:Western world's creation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      poor chinks need someone to protect them from themselves.

    5. Re:Western world's creation by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      So, basically the Western world cleaned up it's pollution by moving it to China?

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    6. Re:Western world's creation by failedlogic · · Score: 1

      I'll bite the buller on this one - but I won't be replying to questions the rest of the day. I would like people to think of my post on a general level. People can't expect ./ posts to be PHd dissertations for fucks sakes. I tried to clarify as much as I can here. More effort than most posts nowadays.

      Clothes: Almost all my clothes 90% is made in Canada, the USA or Western Europe. I haven't spent a fortune on clothes either. There are only several brands still made in USA/Canada now. Socks - all Brooks (made in USA). White t-Shirts - all Stanfields, made in Canada. I buy on sale where I can, I try at discount retailers and don't buy a lot of clothes. If its good quality I technically don't have to. The only things in my closet that I have to have purchased that is made in China are my running shoes (I have 5 pairs - I run a lot).

      Misc. stuff: There's still a good amount of dishes, cutlery, furniture and household goods that aren't made in China. Again, shop around and choose carefully. And at least where I live, I can walk/bike where I need to. Vancouver is awesome for that. Delivery yes, but the shopping experience is walking.

      Car: None. Motorcycle none (though I admit soon). Public transit yes. Bicycle yes (made in Taiwan and Japan - its a high-end racing bike). Yes, someone else has to drive to keep economy going so I'm as responsible as anyone.

      Electronics: Consumer electronics as a whole are made in China/Taiwan. Can't aviod it. Only one execption I know of. Toshiba AFAIK anyways makes LCD products in Japan if they're over a certain price point - I think its $500 US.

      Summary: If you shop carefully you *can* buy at least some/most consumer goods that don't come from China. I won't pretend that buying stuff in Europe and having shipped to Canada is good on carbon footprint. Subject is China technically though.I buy mostly non-Chinese made goods to support other economies. And its a question of safety imo. God knows how much lead and other crap are in Chinese made goods, IMO.

      I don't know that I'll permanently avoid Chinese made goods. I just think that they really need to emphazie product safety.

    7. Re:Western world's creation by Sun.Jedi · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Western world has made China one giant production facility

      It's called poor leadership.

      US: Hey, lend us money and we'll encourage our citizens to buy your wares with ridiculous tax breaks for corporations.
      China: Buy 5x junk, and it's a deal!

      In the end, they lent us the money, and now because we are stuck with their shit products, and inability through gross negligence on the part of US leadership are reduced to selling prime real estate and property to the bastards.

      Post not meant as a troll, maybe a rant, but surely not a troll.

    8. Re:Western world's creation by Solandri · · Score: 1

      I'm buying made in the USA or Canada - first, less pollution in transportation, saves jobs, and (should) be higher quality and safer.

      You realize it typically takes less fuel to transport something by container ship from China than it does to truck it from cross-country? Barges are 9x more fuel efficient per ton-mile than trucks, and container ships are even more fuel efficient than barges. If you're on the US or Canadian West coast, stuff coming from China burned less fuel in transport than stuff coming by truck from more than a couple states/provinces over.

    9. Re:Western world's creation by TheSync · · Score: 1

      So, basically the Western world cleaned up it's pollution by moving it to China?

      Yes, but in the process we brought hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty, and they might be sold enough on capitalism now (rather than spending all day wading in rice paddies) that when they get rich enough (through increases in capital related and total factor productivity) that they will start legislating real pollution controls (actually this is slowly happening right now). For more info, see the Environmental Kuznets curve hypothesis.

    10. Re:Western world's creation by enemorales · · Score: 1

      Around here, people say something like: "You should not blame the pig, but the one that feeds it", meaning that it is not the pig's fault to be dirty or smelly... (Maybe you have know the english equivalent or can make a better translation: "No es culpa del chancho, sino de el que le da afrecho")

    11. Re:Western world's creation by slacktide · · Score: 1

      If you're looking for made-in-USA sneakers, some of the higher end New Balance ones are domestic. Their chain-store lower end shoes are mostly China/Indonesia though.

    12. Re:Western world's creation by failedlogic · · Score: 1

      Thanks! Now one less Chinese thing to buy. I was hooked on Reebox but inconsistencies and lower quality padding over last 2 years are hurting me (literally). So I'll try the domestic NB shoes. My knees are likely to say: Thank you!

    13. Re:Western world's creation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the US, we're more likely to blame the pig for being hungry.

    14. Re:Western world's creation by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1
      Funny enough, the Chinese government agrees with your position. None of the pollution is China's fault, and it is all those foreigners who force us to build polluting factories. All of those officials taking bribes to look the other way? Nothing to see there. Now, let's ramp up a media campaign where we inspect foreign-owned factories for environmental violations, trump up every charge in the book, raise their cost sky-high, and force them out of the country, selling out to a Chinese company for a song. Needless to say, Chinese companies will face no such environmental restrictions. Been there, done that, paid the bribes and went to KTV.

      Americans love to criticize themselves, and let others off the hook scot-free. It's an odd habit.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    15. Re:Western world's creation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm buying made in the USA or Canada - first, less pollution in transportation, saves jobs, and (should) be higher quality and safer.

      Actually, sea transport is so energy efficient that a minor inefficiency in local processing could make it more eco friendly to move the process to China.

      For example, a lot of fish is sent from Norway to China for processing, and then back to Norway. This process has the same CO2 output per kilogram of fish as processing locally, because the Chinese use manual labour instead of machines, which leads to less waste.

    16. Re:Western world's creation by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      The trouble with trying to buy stuff made in countries with a similar development level to yours is the definition of "made in". Generally the final manufacturing process (which is the one the "made in" generally reffers to) is a relatively insignificant part of the overall manufacturing process.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  28. Not as doubtful as you'd think by LS · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There seems to be a lot of incredulity about Beijing's ability to clean up for the Olympics, but you are all forgetting that the government here is doesn't have the same limitations of a democracy, and can implement massive policy changes immediately. There are shutting down over 350 (!) factories down here, and have taken 60% of the cars off of the road. Most construction has stopped. I was here on Sunday, the first day this process went into effect, and we had a brilliant blue sky. Things are a little hazy again today, but they're not done shutting down everything yet. Expect a relatively pollution free Olympics. Sorry to rain on your hate parade guys. This is only a temporary solution though, which is amazing considering they spent 40 billion on infrastructure change to support the cleanup effort.

    LS

    --
    There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
    1. Re:Not as doubtful as you'd think by Remus+Shepherd · · Score: 1

      Maybe you can answer the question on my mind, then. After experiencing a week of healthy air, what are the chances that the public will complain again after the Olympics when they go back to breathing in the same old crud?

      --
      Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
    2. Re:Not as doubtful as you'd think by Derosian · · Score: 1

      I thought Slashdot was blocked by the Great Chinese Firewall?

    3. Re:Not as doubtful as you'd think by LS · · Score: 1

      Well, it's going to be over a month of healthy air, counting the run up and the two weeks of Olympics.

      Funny you ask, because I have thought the same thing several times as I stroll the streets on a clear day watching parents and children play in the dapple sunlight, and wonder if the joy would drive people to demand clean air.

      Unfortunately, a decent economy and a government without citizen representation mitigates the public's desire or ability to do anything when things go to shit. The people running those 350 factories aren't exactly powerless either.

      Lastly, there are normally long stretches of clean weather in the late fall in Beijing, so people have experienced clean air before. Despite misconceptions to the contrary, Beijing does experience the occasional clean day or week following rains or winds blowing in the right direction.

      --
      There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
    4. Re:Not as doubtful as you'd think by Alzheimers · · Score: 1

      Probably about the same odds as those complainers not becoming un-persons shortly thereafter.

    5. Re:Not as doubtful as you'd think by ZarathustraDK · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, a decent economy and a government without citizen representation mitigates the public's desire or ability to do anything when things go to shit. The people running those 350 factories aren't exactly powerless either.

      --
      If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
    6. Re:Not as doubtful as you'd think by LS · · Score: 1

      you are mistaken. No it is not.

      --
      There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
    7. Re:Not as doubtful as you'd think by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Its amazing what one can do with the threat of the gun and the demonstrated ability and willingness to make good on that threat. However, just because they can doesn't make it right. One can be pleased with the results but still deplore the methods.

    8. Re:Not as doubtful as you'd think by LS · · Score: 1

      Not sure how right and wrong got into this thread...

      --
      There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
  29. All they really need... by wattrlz · · Score: 1

    Is to spend some of that money on gigantic fans pointed towards Tibet, Japan, or somewhere else that's not China.

    1. Re:All they really need... by Alzheimers · · Score: 1

      Is to spend some of that money on gigantic fans pointed towards Tibet, Japan, or somewhere else that's not China.

      Except that if you ask them, there is nowhere 'else' that is not China.

    2. Re:All they really need... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except Tibet is part of China. Check your maps.

  30. Lipstick by Jerrry · · Score: 1

    Looks like yet another case of the Chinese trying to put lipstick on a pig.

  31. Free Tibet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Boycott the Olympics, and buy American

  32. Didn't they learn from Mexico?? by notdotcom.com · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For the next two months, owners of 3.3 million private cars can drive only on alternate days in China's capital, based on whether the last digit of their license plates is even or odd.

    Mexico tried the whole "even or odd" license plate thing a while back (for similar reasons) and it was an epic failure.

    People either bought another car, usually an older, more-polluting model, or just ignored the law. The result was that Mexico's air quality got WORSE from trying to restrict vehicles on the road because most 2nd (or 3rd) cars that were being purchased were older models with almost no pollution control equipment and higher fuel consumption.

    I don't know what it takes to buy a car in China, or how the government regulates license plate numbers, but if it's in any way similar to Mexico, this will fail too.

    --
    Grandpa: My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is not a porn star.
    1. Re:Didn't they learn from Mexico?? by maxume · · Score: 1

      They are doing it for about a month. Very few people are going to buy an extra car just to be able to drive for 15 days.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Didn't they learn from Mexico?? by xtracto · · Score: 5, Informative

      Mexico tried the whole "even or odd" license plate thing a while back (for similar reasons) and it was an epic failure.

      Uuuh, as far as I know (asking to my relatives living in Mexico D.F.) the "hoy no circula" program is still going on strong in Mexico City, moreover, the program has just been extended for Saturdays (since July 5).

      Saying that it didn't work is a big claim. Granted, some people bought another car, however that is not very common, given the general population does not earn enough money to buy a second car.

      And moreover, the IMECA (Metropolitan Index of the Quality of Air, used to monitor the pollution in Mexico City) or AIQ (nowadays between 50 and 70) is not as high as it used to be say, 10 years ago when it usually was between 80 and 110...

      You can check it from yourself, all the yearly data for Mexico City atmospheric conditions can be obtained from here.

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
  33. you missed a whole lot of fun then by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    when visiting some former warsaw pact countries in the early nineties.

    When they said don't go near the river they meant it, having soldiers nearby just to make sure. Seeing dead trees that had been in place for years and soot covered buildings. (granted it was cool to see architecture from the forties the dirt was amazing). That system abused nature as much as it abused the people in it.

    China has spent over $40 BILLION dollars on this Olympics, I wonder how much was just to fix past environmental damage.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  34. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by cozziewozzie · · Score: 1

    Actually, the one thing I find more interesting than anything else, is the amount of political activism from people who usually aren't involved in politics. This is the first time the Olympics has been so closely related to politics, whether it's the world's economic markets, the Tibetan question, the Falun Gong, the freedom of press, pollution, hydroelectric dams, minority rights, the value of the Yuan, the students sent to "spy" on the West, the practice of eating dogs in Beijing restaurants, the policing of the internet, or something else.

    This is the first time in history where basically NONE of the news regarding Olympics has actually been about the Olympics themselves, but rather about how the host country is evil. Admittedly, many of these issues are real issues that need to be dealt with, but the ferocity with which the international press is attacking everything related to Olympics right now is probably unheard of in history -- I don't even know is the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany Olympics faced such an onslaught from media and citizens alike.

    What I'm really interested in seeing is how many of these issues will continue to be relevant as soon as the Olympics moves to a different country with exactly the same problems, like, say, Russia. This will show whether this is the result of the rising political consciousness worldwide, or simply a display of international power struggle and political pressure.

    How many people will attack the Russian Olympic torch demanding freedom for Chechnya? Will the German government put the Chechen flag on the parliament building while the torch is passing through Berlin? Will the pollution in Moscow make bigger headlines than the athletes themselves? Will we read about the assassinations of journalists or attacks against minorities in every bigger Russian city?

    I don't know, but I'm waiting with interest.

  35. Re:Balancing the clean air by Ced_Ex · · Score: 1

    Anonymous Coward... you stay classy!

    --
    Live forever, or die trying.
  36. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by Tweenk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Unfortunately this won't be as interesting as you think, because they're truly world-class at show, behind-the-scenes action and changing facts by political pressure.

    -How many people will be arrested for silly things?

    If there are any foreigners arrested, the authorities will claim that they were arrested for offenses not related to politics, and authentic-looking footage will be presented. Rejecting the footage as fake will be regarded as anti-Chinese agitation. Domestic arrestees will be held until the end of the Olympic, and will not be allowed to make public statements under severe penalties (assuming there will be any, which I doubt).

    -Will anything be allowed to be broadcasted out of China?

    Yes, you won't notice anything unusual. Instead of trying to control the news broadcasts, they will control reality.

    -How many Chinese will try to defect?

    Zero. There is no noticeable "resistance movement" in China. They really believe in their government, even we think it's evil.

    -And of course: The badly translated sign of the day.

    All the Zhonglish you see originates from factories which try to save on packaging design. There are lots of people who can speak proper English in China, and they won't be saving on translators or anything that has to do with the Olympics, because it's a matter of life and death.

    --
    Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
  37. US cities used to be that bad by Animats · · Score: 1

    US cities used to be that bad. I lived in Chicago, Cleveland, and Detroit when they had steel mills. Cleveland was the worst, because it's not as windy. Normal visibility was under one mile.

    The first time I went to downtown Cleveland, there it was: Heavy Industry - the Cleveland Flats. A river valley cuts through the city, and along the river were the steel mills. The Flats had trains running along public streets, some carrying red-hot steel ingots. A huge pipe a quarter mile long was supported by towers - and it rotated. This turned out to be a rotary cement kiln. Visibility was about half a mile there. One year, the river caught on fire when an oil slick was ignited.

    Now the mills are gone, there are nightclubs along the river, and the city is dying.

  38. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by Alzheimers · · Score: 0, Troll

    The dream: that some day, China will be free enough to have their own fair and balanced Fox News station.

    Now THAT's progress. Right, Papa Bear?

  39. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by Alzheimers · · Score: 1

    Yeah, because politics were never a part of the Olympic games.

    Except in 1936. or 1940, 1944, 1956, 1972, 1976, 1980, or 1984.

  40. face project by hackingbear · · Score: 1

    The BJ Olympic is pretty much a face project. That's why the opening ceremony is held at 2008/08/08 08;08:08pm, rather than on a mid-September day when the weather is cooler and air quality better. But the top officials just don't bother to remember that nowaday nobody in the world undermines China's economic prowess and nobody looks them down because they are a third world country. Everybody agrees that Beijing and Shanghai have some of the most modern infrastructure hardware. People inside and out disgrace and fear China because of other small issues like environment irresponsibility, greedy business practices, widest income/wealth gap, social injustice, corruption, and of course that little human right thing in the eyes of Westerners.

    All in all, while China is busy putting pretty make-up on their face, people instead stare at their ass.

    1. Re:face project by icegreentea · · Score: 1

      Summer Olympics are never in September...

  41. Exercising with smokers by sjonke · · Score: 1

    "It's a bit like trying to exercise in a room when the gym is full of smokers."

    It's even worse when they are smoking.

    --
    --- What?
    1. Re:Exercising with smokers by east+coast · · Score: 1

      Man, don't be so cynical. I did the Tour de France with a pack of Camels in my pocket and I didn't notice any difference.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
  42. Maybe it can stop the oil price? by hackingbear · · Score: 1

    on the positive side, may this push down the price of pork and petro, amid their 10% inflation?

  43. But we are not in the 70's by SuperKendall · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Or how about chemical pollution in the US until the 1970s?
    China's position on pollution is no different than what other countries went through... the difference is just one of scale.

    How does China get a pass on this? They are supposed to be a modern superpower just like the U.S. They are not what I would call a "developing nation", and produce most of the advanced electronics we use today.

    The failure they have is totally unrelated to to past problems the U.S. and others have seen with pollution. The effects are well known, as are means of controlling emissions. There simply is no will to impose any controls.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  44. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by cozziewozzie · · Score: 1

    Yeah, because politics were never a part of the Olympic games.

    They were never the ONLY part of the Olympic games.

  45. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by fishbowl · · Score: 1

    >Zero. There is no noticeable "resistance movement" in China. They really believe in their government, even we think it's evil.

    I've tried to explain / describe this to people many times.
    Occasionally I introduce them to one of my Chinese friends who
    completely hates the Dalai Lama and any notion that Tibet should
    be "free".

    It's a lot of fun, really, because my friend is quite liberal and
    extremely well educated, knows more about Chinese history and current
    events than most Chinese, more about Tibet than any American with a
    Tibetan flag on their yoga mat, etc. But people are usually just
    totally shocked and unprepared for it because they've never actually
    heard a different point of view besides "Tibet should be free"...

    --
    -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  46. All their measures were for naught however. by Kingrames · · Score: 1

    All that work was wasted when a butterfly flapped its wings in Texas and a hurricane hit.

    --
    If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
  47. Zombie Mao says .... by DeadDecoy · · Score: 1

    mrrrrrr..... (Think green or I'll eat your brains)

  48. Blog from a guy in China with pictures by Matt+Perry · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've been reading this guy's blog off and on because he's posting pictures of the air quality. Compare this picture with this one to see what difference is being made.

    --
    Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    1. Re:Blog from a guy in China with pictures by Paolo+DF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      However, I would say that waaaay more than two pictures are needed in order to compare air quality.
      Just imagine how can change current conditions the presence of clouds, high winds, fog, temperature, working/non working days, ... you got the picture.

      --
      Pumbaa! I don't wonder; I know.
    2. Re:Blog from a guy in China with pictures by IronChef · · Score: 1

      The Onion: China Celebrates Status As Number One Polluter

      Obligatory LOL.

      Cancer is a very modern disease!

    3. Re:Blog from a guy in China with pictures by Matt+Perry · · Score: 1

      However, I would say that waaaay more than two pictures are needed in order to compare air quality.

      I agree. That's why you should take a look through his blog. He's been posting pictures for a while now. Some days the air is clear such as in the photo at the bottom of this post.

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
  49. Factories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Well you should read the article; they tried to move the factories but they couldn't find them because of the smog!!

  50. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

    You don't seem to know much about the modern Olympics. They're entirely a political. The sports are literally an excuse for an international gathering, and the Olympic committee specifically states that their primary goals in selecting locations are all political. This isn't a bad thing, but it means you should keep in mind that the sports have always been just an excuse, nothing more.

    Actually, the one thing I find more interesting than anything else, is the amount of political activism from people who usually aren't involved in politics. This is the first time the Olympics has been so closely related to politics, whether it's the world's economic markets, the Tibetan question, the Falun Gong, the freedom of press, pollution, hydroelectric dams, minority rights, the value of the Yuan, the students sent to "spy" on the West, the practice of eating dogs in Beijing restaurants, the policing of the internet, or something else.

    This is the first time in history where basically NONE of the news regarding Olympics has actually been about the Olympics themselves, but rather about how the host country is evil. Admittedly, many of these issues are real issues that need to be dealt with, but the ferocity with which the international press is attacking everything related to Olympics right now is probably unheard of in history -- I don't even know is the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany Olympics faced such an onslaught from media and citizens alike.

    What I'm really interested in seeing is how many of these issues will continue to be relevant as soon as the Olympics moves to a different country with exactly the same problems, like, say, Russia. This will show whether this is the result of the rising political consciousness worldwide, or simply a display of international power struggle and political pressure.

    How many people will attack the Russian Olympic torch demanding freedom for Chechnya? Will the German government put the Chechen flag on the parliament building while the torch is passing through Berlin? Will the pollution in Moscow make bigger headlines than the athletes themselves? Will we read about the assassinations of journalists or attacks against minorities in every bigger Russian city?

    I don't know, but I'm waiting with interest.

    --
    "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
  51. Why don't they take the more sensible route? by Hojima · · Score: 1

    China could just host a lot of the Olympic events in-doors. Then they can develop a better energy policy. Better use of everyone's resources. Besides, it's not like they have a democratic utopia. Just ration off energy and reduce pollution better that way.

  52. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by geminidomino · · Score: 1

    The dream: that some day, China will be free enough to have their own fair and balanced Fox News station.

    Now THAT's progress. Right, Papa Bear?

    Every time Colbert calls O'Reilly that, I die a little inside.

    R.I.P, Col. Robert E. Hogan

  53. Been to Beijing... I hope they can do it by CokoBWare · · Score: 1

    I went to Beijing in January 2007, and the polution was TERRIBLE. I couldn't get away from the smell, even in my 5 star hotel room! The smog in the air is so bad, that you can blow your nose and black shit comes out. Breathing is difficult. I have hopes for Beijing to clean up its act for the Olympics, but the reality is that it's likely NOT to happen to the degree they need it to, not in that summer heat.

    1. Re:Been to Beijing... I hope they can do it by thedistrict · · Score: 1

      That's pretty troublesome. Especially now that the summer Olympics are coming around. That means the athletes will be forced to perform outside and that their fitness is going to suffer. I'm glad to see the the Olympics coming to Beijing but the conditions appear to be less than ideal.

  54. Egg Foo Young? by phorm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The racist overtones (Egg Foo Young?) are unnecessary.

    Well, being that the common expression is "egg on their face", and "egg foo young" is a common dish at a Chinese restaurant, it seems more an attempt at humour than racism.

  55. London Smog Disaster of 1952 by peter303 · · Score: 1

    I dont want to pick on UK, because the US had its share of deadly smog days. However the so-called first world has had its century of deadly smog .

    1. Re:London Smog Disaster of 1952 by fatphil · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why are the Chinese, who have a multi-billion-dollar semiconductor manufacturing industry and have had fusion weapons for 40 years, making the same mistakes as a country that had barely even seen a transistor, and was 5 years away from developing fusion weapons?

      Please compare like with like.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  56. Déjà vu (Moscow Olympics) by $criptah · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not sure how many people remember or care to know about the games of 1980 held in Moscow, but similar things happened there in order to promote the image of the USSR.

    All people with questionable reputation were ordered to leave the city and the communist party spent a lot of time and money to ensure that everything was top notch (well, at least by the Soviet standards). Guess what happened when the games stopped?

    If people cannot see through this dog and pony show that every country is going to put up in order to look good, then yeah, China's new green image is a great success!

  57. people will die by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know that it my sound extreme. but the reality is this:

    I just received a notice from my Printed circuit Board vendor in China stating that they will be unable to provide deliveries during this time due to mandatory shutdowns. thus i will have to resort to expensive U.S manufacturing. If im doing that then i assume others are doing the same. perhaps on a different scale then what my little company uses. As a whole this has to be effecting the average worker that works as such facilities there in china. Poor guy who was bringing home that 2$ a day now brings home none. on a larger scale you will see starvation, because i know more factory's then just PCB's manufacturing will be shut down.

    that 2$ a day buys grain to eat. how will he earn his grain?

    people might argue how this will effect consumer goods. but don't forget there is a human factor involved.

    1. Re:people will die by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol you seriously believe the Chinese workers are earning $2 a day?

      do you still live in the 70's?

  58. Average times could be lower? by AngryLlama · · Score: 0

    Wouldn't they be higher? Unless the smog makes you a faster athlete than ever before.

  59. Hate to agree, but have to by phorm · · Score: 1

    I'd definitely agree that we *all* share the blame in many of these cases.

    Who buys the products made in the smog-spewing factories of China? We do

    Who wants the cheap merchandise made by poorly-paid Chinese workers? We do

    Yes, their government is responsible, but so are our own governments and citizens. It somewhat burns my ass to hear that often the same people who bitch about the "pollution in China" or "treatment of workers in China" also bitch about the fact that their made-in-China products starting to rise in price.

    Yes, some of the crap that happens in China wouldn't necessarily happen over here, but we're still happy to farm out all the low-paid backbreaking work to "somewhere else" so we can have cheap commodity goods.

    Fah.

  60. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by xtracto · · Score: 1

    "Tibet should be free"...
    Not too long ago, a Chinese friend of mine doing his PhD in the UK told me that all the noise and stuff made for the "Free Tibet" movement was naÃve, and that it could be compared to the "movement" to "free" Scotland from the English yoke...

    Of course news agencies make a mountain out of a molehill [ahogarse en un vaso de agua?], the more it helps to sell, the better.

    --
    Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
  61. Also stockpiling a strategic reserve... by WoTG · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Another related demand on oil is that China is building a strategic petroleum reserve, similar to the one in the USA. Now, in theory, that build-out is still ongoing, and the fill rate is relatively slow. However, given the extreme importance of the diesel supplies during the Olympics, I would not be surprised if the Chinese SPR is being built and filled a lot quicker than publicized.

    China's SPR barely gets mentioned in the media, but it's huge, though, smaller than that of the USA. They aim to store the equivalent of several weeks of their crude imports.

    Is it really enough to affect the world price? Who knows, certainly not I.

  62. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by Tweenk · · Score: 1

    This is more likely a hardcore radical communist cell (after all, they departed quite far away from the Marxist and Maoist ideology) than a democratic resistance movement.

    --
    Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
  63. pfft this one's easy by GregNorc · · Score: 1

    Any pollutants will be shot on sight!

  64. KFC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How long since the colonel made a live appearance, and his smile still adorns buckets of dead chicken. For this though, I think an animatronic lemming running on to the bus at each stop would be more apropos.

  65. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > -How many Chinese will try to defect?

    Probably none. Unlike the former Soviet Union, China's general attitude towards unhappy citizens who want to leave has always been, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out."

  66. Draconian Measures Failing Drastically by TimSkidmore · · Score: 1

    This is just further evidence that in order for measures intended to improve air quality and reduce traffic congestion such as the much vaunted staggering work schedules to avoid rush hour, telecommuting, and driving on alternate days of the week -- not to mention shutting down 1/3 of the industrial economy -- can only be implemented under a totalitarian regime. The People's People are already suffering under these newly-imposed communist diktats.

  67. MOD PARENT UP by PRMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And if you go to the Olympics, you may want to avoid the "chicken"...

    --
    Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
  68. How appropriate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is actually a good description of China: "a gym full of smokers"

  69. smog training by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

    If altitude training works, why not smog training ? At last the Kenyans will be beaten by the New Jersey runners.

    Failing that, I suppose they could pump O2 into the stadium and pool to boost performance.

    Don't smoke...

    --
    Nullius in verba
  70. Love the irony by StrahdVZ · · Score: 1

    The advertisement before the linked LA Times video news story is the monstrously-sized, climate-changing, CO2-producing Chevrolet Silverado MONSTER UTILITY VEHICLE (with added cheesy "be-a-man and destroy the earth with our monster truck" low-pitch voiceover and all).

  71. Olympic air and the odd/even problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's funny that everybody has the need to specify that ONLY the last digit has to be odd or even. Not the whole number! :))

  72. proof of concept by Tom · · Score: 1

    Yes, it's a short-term measure.

    But I still think it's a very important step. If it works, then it proves that something can be done, and with any luck will silence some of the nay-sayers.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  73. Re:Balancing the clean air by antoinjapan · · Score: 1

    Maybe if everyone in china jumped up and down all at once ...and farted at the same time...it would propel us further from the sun, easing global warming, easing photochemical smog...and possibly leave all the smog there is now behind us like a vapour trail...we should start preparing for this eventuality...I'm buying stock in Heinz Beans

  74. Focusing on the wrong issue for the athletes by Salvatori · · Score: 1

    People are making a lot of noise about the air quality in BeiJing. Personally, Iâ(TM)ve never been the least effected by the quality of the air, and I doubt that healthy athletes will notice it either. The big problem, and as far as I can tell no one anywhere has discussed it, is that BeiJing in August is bone dry â" dryer than anywhere Iâ(TM)ve ever been in the US, including Arizona. Anyone who is involved in an outdoor endurance event is going to have a high hurdle to adjust to if they are not training for that kind of an environment right now. I generally donâ(TM)t drink water at all during the day but when I go to BeiJing in August 15 minutes outdoors and I need water in a big way.

  75. Re:Non-sports stuff more interesting than the even by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, because politics were never a part of the Olympic games.

    Except in 1936. or 1940, 1944, 1956, 1972, 1976, 1980, or 1984.

    You forgot 1916.