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Removing CO2 From the Air Efficiently

Canadian scientists have created a device that efficiently removes CO2 from the atmosphere. "The proposed air capture system differs from existing carbon capture and storage technology ... while CCS involves installing equipment at, say, a coal-fired power plant to capture CO2 produced during the coal-burning process, ... air capture machines will be able to literally remove the CO2 present in ambient air everywhere. [The team used] ... a custom-built tower to capture CO2 directly from the air while requiring less than 100 kilowatt-hours of electricity per tonne of carbon dioxide."

487 comments

  1. Natural device? by TheMidnight · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't we have a device that removes CO2 from the air? I thought they were called "trees."

    1. Re:Natural device? by Fluffeh · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oh honestly, you green bottomed hairy hippie! Why plant trees that will cleanly and effectively remove the carbon from the air, when we can invent a MACHINE to do it that will use electricity and require parts and labour and all that? You greenies and your whacky nature ideas. Honestly! How exactly do trees generate jobs?

      I suppose you eat dolphin safe tuna as well?!

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    2. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They won't be making a pile of cash out of trees.

      Can't resist:

      1) Identify a possible source of trouble
      2) Invent a fix, no matter how convoluted it is
      3) Patent it and market it
      4) Profit

      Just wonder how much do we have to wait for a fart capture device (cow farts are actually a major source of trouble)

    3. Re:Natural device? by Ihlosi · · Score: 5, Funny

      Don't we have a device that removes CO2 from the air? I thought they were called "trees."

      I hooked a tree up to 100kW, and it added CO2 to the air instead.

    4. Re:Natural device? by marco.antonio.costa · · Score: 5, Funny

      Man! Cut it out!

      It's THREE steps, not four, and you CAN'T specify the intermediate one! Jeezuz...

      --
      Send your spendthrift head of state this
    5. Re:Natural device? by TarrVetus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This may be Bad Math, but... The article says, "The tower unit was able to capture the equivalent of approximately 20 tonnes per year of CO2 on a single square metre of scrubbing material -- which amounts to the average level of emissions produced by one person each year in North America." A page I dug up claims a single tree removes "on average 50 pounds (22 kg) of carbon dioxide annually over 40 years."

      The scrubber sounds pretty effective. No waiting for it to grow, and it's more space-efficient, which is good for cities and industrialized areas.

    6. Re:Natural device? by bakuun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't we have a device that removes CO2 from the air? I thought they were called "trees."

      Yes, but when the trees eventually die they are decomposed and release the CO2 into the air again (or in the case of biofuel, they release it into the air again when burned). It is a carbon-neutral system, both when left alone and when used as a fuel.

      I imagine an approach like this would be considerably less efficient than, say, putting CCS devices on coal plants. If it "costs" 100 kWh / tonne of CO2 at a normal location, you'd most likely get better efficiency if this was done where the air concentration of CO2 was high. Such as.. at the top of a coal-plant chimney where the CO2 concentration is going to be a great deal higher than the average concentration in the atmosphere.

    7. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This may be Bad Math, but... The article says, "The tower unit was able to capture the equivalent of approximately 20 tonnes per year of CO2 on a single square metre of scrubbing material -- which amounts to the average level of emissions produced by one person each year in North America." A page I dug up [carbonify.com] claims a single tree removes "on average 50 pounds (22 kg) of carbon dioxide annually over 40 years."

      The scrubber sounds pretty effective. No waiting for it to grow, and it's more space-efficient, which is good for cities and industrialized areas.

      Yep, and we only ned 450,000,000 of them to keep up with the carbon output of the denizens of North America.

      It's not clear from the wording whether that includes the output of North American industry, or just the habits of individuals.

    8. Re:Natural device? by Macthorpe · · Score: 4, Funny

      Just wonder how much do we have to wait for a fart capture device

      Thank you, Argentina.

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
    9. Re:Natural device? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And trees which are being GM'ed to grow faster and/or remove more CO2 are under attack by eco-terrorists.

      I'm not going to search, but I'd thought that grasslands were more efficient CO2 sinks than trees

    10. Re:Natural device? by citizen_senior · · Score: 3, Informative

      Just wonder how much do we have to wait for a fart capture device (cow farts are actually a major source of trouble)

      This has already been done in Holland - no waiting required, therefor - a university study group has work in progress on the subject of cow farts. There are groups of cows standing around with cylinders strapped to their backs in order to (forgive the word) fuel this study. Saw it on /.

    11. Re:Natural device? by afc_wimbledon · · Score: 1

      Yes, but when the trees eventually die they are decomposed and release the CO2 into the air again

      There are proposed schemes to bury (fairly deeply; on the order of tens of metres IIRC) trees when they die as a method of carbon sequestration. Of course, that uses machinery that in turn produces CO2, so even that has some energy input, like this scheme, and may well need a lot more labour. AND look pretty ugly (think large, VERY large, scale open cast mining in reverse).

    12. Re:Natural device? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      For comparison:

      Poplar trees are about 10 tons per acre. Which is about 2.5kg of wood per square meter.

      From: http://www.physorg.com/news75568548.html

      And oil palms produce about 0.6 kg of oil per square metre.

      --
    13. Re:Natural device? by ceeceekay · · Score: 1

      are these people related to this? "That's why our innovators at COyou Ltd have developed a revolutionary new product that gives the power to individuals to stop climate change." http://www.cou2.com/

    14. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So we just have to build a tower for every North American and the problem is solved?

      Nice to see the tech developing, though.

    15. Re:Natural device? by Candid88 · · Score: 1

      Yea but planting a few billion tree's and letting them grow themselves is a heck of a lot easier than building hundreds of millions of these towers.

    16. Re:Natural device? by jambox · · Score: 2

      Yeah trees grow real slow. But over the years a tree will still soak up tons of CO2, plus they cost nothing, there's no maintenance and you get a useful resource out of them at the end. Also you can pollard them to speed things up.

      --
      You thought you could break the laws of physics without paying the PRICE?
    17. Re:Natural device? by beav007 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Strangely, typing "trees" instead of "tree's" is both easier, and correct, and you haven't done it. I'd say our Canadian friends are on to something.

      If apostrophes meant "ZOMGHereComesAnS", we would type "treeZOMGHereComesAnSs", but they don't, so we don't.

    18. Re:Natural device? by mpe · · Score: 1

      Don't we have a device that removes CO2 from the air? I thought they were called "trees."

      Any green plant will do. How difficult would it be to pipe the exhaust from a coal fired powerstation through some greenhouses. Which is the obvious place to put a "greenhouse gas" in the first place :)

    19. Re:Natural device? by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 5, Funny

      How exactly do trees generate jobs?

      Well...people could be paid to plant them. Yeah, I know that trees can do this on their own....but can they do it in nice neat rows?

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    20. Re:Natural device? by Spacelem · · Score: 1

      Trees actually emit CO2 at night when there is no light for photosynthesis. Amusingly enough, the hotter the climate, the more CO2 they produce, and another few degrees would be enough to make them net CO2 emitters, rather than the absorbers they currently are.

    21. Re:Natural device? by mpe · · Score: 1

      This may be Bad Math, but... The article says, "The tower unit was able to capture the equivalent of approximately 20 tonnes per year of CO2 on a single square metre of scrubbing material

      How often are you going to have to remove this material? Probably fairly frequently considering that it is going to be accumulating something like 55kg per day.

      The scrubber sounds pretty effective. No waiting for it to grow, and it's more space-efficient, which is good for cities and industrialized areas.

      Trees are fairly "low maintainence" and produce at least one useful by product. Some (including one which should be obvious to Canadians) produce more than one useful product.

    22. Re:Natural device? by Captain+Hook · · Score: 5, Funny

      I suppose you eat dolphin safe tuna as well?!

      No, but I do eat tuna safe dolphines. hmmm

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    23. Re:Natural device? by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And now the catch ... while this tower is beyond inefficient :

      Coal produces 2.117 pounds per kwh.
      = 0.000960255047 tonne per kwh.
      = 1041 kwh per tonne Co2

      This needs about 10% of that power, combined with some 15% transmission loss, and the fact that this is a lower bound over time (obviously if we lower athmospheric co2 this cost will raise).

      That means we need 23% or about 1/4th of total energy to merely break even. Petroleum and gas aren't that much better, and aren't feasible over even the medium term anymore. To actually make a difference we'd need 50% of all energy produced, which means our generating capacity needs to rise by 100% (and not 50% because if we raise it by 50% we'd have 1.5 times the energy which would be divided into 0.75 for carbon nonsense and 0.75 for us. So we'd need 200% of the energy making it 1 unit for us, and 1 unit for co2 nonsense).

      That's not exactly good news, is it ? It gets worse.

      Trees are much worse in efficiency than this. Yes, they do produce their own energy. They're however 2% efficient solar panels (so in reality a tree presents lost energy, in that a solar panel could have been standing where the tree stood and produce about 20 TIMES more energy, making these towers more efficient even if trees were 100% efficient chemical machines, since that would only give them 5% of the efficiency of the solar panels).

      Well trees do about 650 kg per tree per year. Needless to say this is beyond pitiful. Using solar panels to power a tower like this would replace a forest in about 100 square meters. Combine this with the need to double generating capacity in order to make the towers work and you'll see exactly where this would be going in the real world.

    24. Re:Natural device? by bakuun · · Score: 1

      Err.. The idea being then that at those depths, bacteria wouldn't get to them? Or that with no oxygen available, decomposition would be infeasible? I have to say, it sounds like an awful lot of work - first to do the digging, and secondly to actually place the cut-down trees in these deposits.

    25. Re:Natural device? by archeopterix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      [...] another few degrees would be enough to make them net CO2 emitters, rather than the absorbers they currently are

      I call bullshit on this one. As long as plants need carbon to build their bodies, they will be CO2 absorbers, at least until they die and decompose.

    26. Re:Natural device? by Peaker · · Score: 1

      The ratio seems to be 1 to 40,000.

      If you need to plant billions of trees (consider the amount of land required, too...), then you would only need to build 10,000's of these machines.

    27. Re:Natural device? by davester666 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Human's are fascinated with Rube Goldberg-type machines. It would be even better if there were balls rolling around an endless track as part of the process...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    28. Re:Natural device? by asdir · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Seriously: Trees are just a carbon sink. Accordingly, when trees rot, the carbon will be set free again.
      Having a "machine" remove the excess carbon formerly bound to dessert ground from air would help us compensate the loss of trees through forest burning and chopping as well as the carbon set free by burning oil. However, I would not know what machine is sustainable, effective and efficient in this way yet.

    29. Re:Natural device? by magarity · · Score: 1

      when the trees eventually die they are decomposed and release the CO2 into the air again
       
      I've just invented a giant zip-lok baggie into which dead trees can be placed. Then we can just throw them in the landfill and all the CO2 will be stored away!

    30. Re:Natural device? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Plus, it is working out of solar energy !

      Jokes aside, a tree goal is to grow and reproduce, not to efficiently capture CO2 into a solid form, even if it is an important part of the process. Remember that an adult tree releases about as much CO2 as it releases oxygen. If you want to efficiently use trees to capture CO2, you'll have to cut adult trees regularly to keep all individuals in their growth period. This uses energy, too.

      It could be possible to create a more efficient machine for the task. I am not sure this one is, but it may be possible to improve the process.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    31. Re:Natural device? by Uber+Banker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Human's are fascinated with Rube Goldberg-type machines. It would be even better if there were balls rolling around an endless track as part of the process...

      You mean it might contain bearings?

    32. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, logically, the best solution would be to cut down the old growth forests (especially tropical rainforests), dry out the timber so it won't rot, deposit the timber in a salt mine, and plant new fast growing bamboo forests in the cleared area. In this way the stagnant forests (zero net CO2) can use their area to actually take CO2 out of the atmosphere. And another positive effect would be that not only could you repeat the process, but also that the planet's albedo would shoot upwards in between choppings.

    33. Re:Natural device? by afc_wimbledon · · Score: 1

      Err.. The idea being then that at those depths, bacteria wouldn't get to them? Or that with no oxygen available, decomposition would be infeasible? I have to say, it sounds like an awful lot of work - first to do the digging, and secondly to actually place the cut-down trees in these deposits.

      One of the extensions to this idea was to bake the wood into charcoal first*, to make it less reactive. But yes, by burying it deep, decomposition is inhibited. The figures for labour were (from memory; I think it was in New Scientist a few months ago) either 100,000 or 1 million, for a project big enough to actually reduce CO2 levels at current production. Which is a lot, but not as many as you might think.

      * which also gives you better-than-carbon-neutral petroleum substitutes!

    34. Re:Natural device? by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Yeah but trees can ONLY run on solar power and as such just aren't as effective when the sun isn't in the sky (due to rain or night-time). This thing works no matter if its getting sunlight.

    35. Re:Natural device? by BLAG-blast · · Score: 1

      Trees? There aren't trees on Mars, we're learning to terraform, get used to it!

      --
      M0571y H@rml355.
    36. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trees do NOT remove CO from the air!
      Trees remove C from the air, and release O into the air.

      There is a crucial difference here, and i am surprised no one notices this.

      I for one, would like to have some O left in our atmosphere in the future. I like to breathe and stuff.
      Don't come complaining when all our precious O is neatly tied into CO and stored inside underground reservoirs, where we cannot breathe it.

    37. Re:Natural device? by iainl · · Score: 1

      1) Chop down trees.
      2) Plant others, so your carbon capture continues.
      3) Do something with those logs other than burn or decompose them. Bury the logs somewhere the CO2 can't escape. Hell, build houses out of them instead of energy-intensive concrete, that works.
      4) Profit!

      Clearly it can't be this easy.

      --
      "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
    38. Re:Natural device? by Futile+Rhetoric · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a plan. We put a whole bunch of trees under ground, prevent global warming, and when our primitive descendants make their way out of the inevitable nuclear holocaust and go through their industrial revolution in a few million years, they will have a readily available supply of oil right underneath their feet, ready for the tapping.

    39. Re:Natural device? by rohan972 · · Score: 5, Funny

      How exactly do trees generate jobs?

      Well...people could be paid to plant them. Yeah, I know that trees can do this on their own....but can they do it in nice neat rows?

      That's a great idea ... we could even employ people to selectively cut the trees down, and others to mill the timber, and others to make things with it. I think it's possible to come up with a viable business model where we sell people products made from converted atmospheric carbon.

      I'm off to the patent office!

    40. Re:Natural device? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "Yes, but when the trees eventually die they are decomposed and release the CO2 into the air again (or in the case of biofuel, they release it into the air again when burned). It is a carbon-neutral system, both when left alone and when used as a fuel."

      Uhm, I'm sorry? Last time I checked trees convert CO2 to oxygen instead of simply storing CO2 into their bodies!

    41. Re:Natural device? by who+knows+my+name · · Score: 1

      Yes, but when the trees eventually die they are decomposed and release the CO2 into the air again (or in the case of biofuel, they release it into the air again when burned). It is a carbon-neutral system, both when left alone and when used as a fuel.

      It is not carbon-neutral. As long as more trees are planted than cut down, it will be beneficial. The rainforest was a pretty good carbon store until it was cut down...

      --
      Nothing to see here.
    42. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I suppose you eat dolphin safe tuna as well?!"

      I prefer to skip the middleman and just eat dolphins. They're tastier than tuna and they make annoying noises so it's a win win.

    43. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Accordingly, when trees rot, the carbon will be set free again.

      You could also just wait until they respirate that carbon dioxide right back out during the night.

      It may interest you people to know that trees don't photosynthesize sugars out of concern for the environment, misinformative eco-propaganda aside.

    44. Re:Natural device? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily...

      Wikipedia

    45. Re:Natural device? by cheetah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But when trees die most of that carbon that they have stored up gets put right back into the air as CO2 not all of it... but the majority. Forests aren't great long-term Carbon sinks.

    46. Re:Natural device? by bakuun · · Score: 1

      Yes, but when the trees eventually die they are decomposed and release the CO2 into the air again (or in the case of biofuel, they release it into the air again when burned). It is a carbon-neutral system, both when left alone and when used as a fuel.

      It is not carbon-neutral. As long as more trees are planted than cut down, it will be beneficial. The rainforest was a pretty good carbon store until it was cut down...

      A tree does not have to be cut down to die (you know that process called aging?). Of course, If we planted more trees than die (whether from natural causes or from being cut down), then the forests would continually store more and more carbon. I think it's clear enough why that wouldn't work though.

    47. Re:Natural device? by amias · · Score: 1

      and how much carbon is released in the manufacture of this device ?
      and how much of them is enough to actually make a difference ?
      and what do you do with all the carbon when you've collect it ? (hint: if your answer involves driving or digging you have failed.)

      Cant we just grow up now and realise we have to
      be moderate in our consumption of the planets resources instead of trying to trick our way out ?

      Toodle-pip
      Amias

      --
      [site]
    48. Re:Natural device? by spineboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, but nature already has a robust way of dealing with it's own carbon sink. Having tons of liquified CO2 sitting around does not sound like a long term solution. While it's a clever technological fix, it does not solve the fundamental problem Kind of like puting ice on a febrile patient instead of giving them antibiotics to kill the infection.

      --
      ..........FULL STOP.
    49. Re:Natural device? by bakuun · · Score: 1

      "Yes, but when the trees eventually die they are decomposed and release the CO2 into the air again (or in the case of biofuel, they release it into the air again when burned). It is a carbon-neutral system, both when left alone and when used as a fuel."

      Uhm, I'm sorry? Last time I checked trees convert CO2 to oxygen instead of simply storing CO2 into their bodies!

      CO2. One carbon atom, two oxygen atoms. If it is all converted to oxygen, without the carbon being stored in the trees themselves, where do the carbon atom go? All organic matter is based on carbon - including trees and for instance our own bodies. If you burn either (or just let them die and then decompose, which will happen) they will both release carbon in the form of carbon dioxide.

    50. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhm, I'm sorry?

      Um, WTF?

      Last time I checked trees convert CO2 to oxygen instead of simply storing CO2 into their bodies!

      The store carbon of course. Look up "decompose" and see why you're a moron.

    51. Re:Natural device? by didroe84 · · Score: 1
      The earth can deal with a certain amount of carbon itself though, so you might not need all 450 million.

      It would at least be beneficial in slowing down global warming until we have a better solution.

    52. Re:Natural device? by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1

      Dolphin-safe tuna?

      I'll stick to my tuna-safe dolphin thanks.

    53. Re:Natural device? by bakuun · · Score: 1

      See the previous reply by afc_wimbledon. Such a scheme (by burying) has been proposed. The question is whether it is the most efficient way. My feeling is that it'd take a great load of energy - and land mass - to bury trees in large enough quantities to make any difference (making it more efficient to just get the carbon directly at the source instead). But then, I haven't done the numbers.

    54. Re:Natural device? by XedLightParticle · · Score: 1

      CO2 under pressure becomes denser than water, so if done right, it'll stay down there.

      An example of this is the idea of sinking liquid CO2 to the bottom of the oceans:

      http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2008-06/10-audacious-ideas-save-planet?page=3

      --
      If I was as pragmatic and objective as I claim to be, would I be commenting?
    55. Re:Natural device? by rbanffy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think oceans also do a pretty good job at that. And at the end of the chain you even get more fish (which is, to a certain extent, fixed carbon).

    56. Re:Natural device? by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Don't we have a device that removes CO2 from the air? I thought they were called "trees."

      Well, yes... but the rate at which trees remove CO2 from the air is not very high. Moreover, left to nature, much of that CO2 is usually released again at the end of the tree's life, when it usually rots slowly. If, however, the tree is harvested for human use, most of the CO2 may be released rapidly (firewood), or some of it may be stored for decades to centuries (construction, paper).

      Either way, the net rate of fixation of CO2 is rather limited, and far less than the rate of release of fossil carbon. Nature required many millions of years for plants to convert CO2 into reserves of fossil hydrocarbons.

      CO2 has also been removed from the atmosphere via the oceans. Many shelly organisms use dissolved CO2 to build their shells. On death, some of these sink, eventually forming carbonate sediments. Geologic processes have been releasing CO2 from carbonate sediments at a similar (but probably lower) rate.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_cycle

      In modern times, industry has been releasing fossil carbon as atmospheric CO2 at a rate some orders of magnitude faster than the net rate of removal of CO2 by plants and shelly creatures. There's the rub. To reverse the buildup of atmospheric CO2, we need something beyond mere forests and diatoms.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    57. Re:Natural device? by rbanffy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can always capture their carbon and tuck it away in a sealed mine.

      At the office, I joke that by printing a lot you are actually helping reduce CO2 because paper comes from fast-growing trees that eat up a lot of carbon in the process. As far as you don't burn it, you are reducing your carbon footprint. If we gathered all the paper we have to print and buried it deep we would be both reducing carbon in our biosphere and offering a nice stockpile of fossil fuel for the cockroach civilization that will follow ours in a couple dozen million years.

      Obviously I never did the math. And I am not even slightly interested in doing it.

    58. Re:Natural device? by peragrin · · Score: 1

      The solution would be to build an engine that runs on co2, so we can put it back into the atmosphere for the machines to suck it back up.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    59. Re:Natural device? by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Cant we just grow up now and realise we have to
      be moderate in our consumption of the planets resources instead of trying to trick our way out ?

      I don't think you understand human nature. Your solution requires changing a significant percentage of the population's behavior - I don't give it much chance of success.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    60. Re:Natural device? by bakuun · · Score: 1

      You can always capture their carbon and tuck it away in a sealed mine.

      Sure, applying conventional carbon-capture sequestering (CCS) technology to biofuel plants have always seemed a good idea to me. That way, as long as the captured carbon does not leak out, you are effectively removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. If it does leak out, at least you're carbon-neutral, which is less risky than building a thousand coal-powered plants, putting CCS tech on top of them and then discovering fifty years later that the storage locations thought to be so secure actually are not.

    61. Re:Natural device? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "If it is all converted to oxygen, without the carbon being stored in the trees themselves, where do the carbon atom go?"

      It's converted to glucose, C6H12O6:

      6 CO2(g) + 12 H2O(l) + photons -> C6H12O6(aq) + 6 O2(g) + 6 H2O(l)

      Isn't that how all photosynthesis - hence all plants - work? I learned this in high school. Am I missing something obvious here or do people on Slashdot really not know this?

    62. Re:Natural device? by alexj33 · · Score: 1

      The middleman thanks you for taking him off the menu.

    63. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Cant we just grow up now and realise we have to be moderate in our consumption of the planets resources instead of trying to trick our way out ?

      Tell people they're going to have to make sacrifices and they'll stone you; tell them you have a magic bullet (lubricated with snake oil) and they'll worship you.

    64. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aha! And if these greenhouses are full of oil palm, we can produce biofuel and... release the CO2 back into the atmosphere!

      And that's not even tongue-in-cheek. Because, of course, we'd be releasing less C02 into the atmosphere than we are now.

    65. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you'll have to cut adult trees regularly to keep all individuals in their growth period.

      We do. They're called "Tree Farms". And they are cut regularly at 15-80 year (depending on the species) intervals. No point in leaving a tree that's just sitting there not putting on girth.

    66. Re:Natural device? by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Who was it that said;

      "An apostrophe does not mean lookout there's an S coming"

    67. Re:Natural device? by fprintf · · Score: 5, Funny

      Trees are fairly "low maintainence" and produce at least one useful by product. Some (including one which should be obvious to Canadians) produce more than one useful product.

      Hockey sticks?

      --
      This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
    68. Re:Natural device? by bunratty · · Score: 1

      Don't we have a device that removes CO2 from the air? I thought they were called "trees."

      The problem is that it trees do it so slowly that the carbon dioxide builds up in the atmosphere, causing a greenhouse effect. I suppose you're now going to claim that all the atmospheric carbon dioxide readings from the last several decades don't show an increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide?

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    69. Re:Natural device? by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      Didn't you RTFA? They're going to burn trees to generate electricity to run the device.

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    70. Re:Natural device? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "It's not clear from the wording whether that includes the output of North American industry, or just the habits of individuals."

      Joe sixpack (the US variety) releases ~4t/yr and IIRC we need to cut our global emmissions from ~10Gt to 3-5Gt and keep it there, assuming all else remains the same that's "only" ~3 sq kilometers annually, but you also need an extra 300 gigawatts to run the machines, after you build 300 million of them... Which leads me to think if it's not economical to do CC at the source then it's very unlikely to be economical elsewhere.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    71. Re:Natural device? by jcr · · Score: 1

      Seems that I've heard of a few others, like bushes, grass, algae..

      Of course, if we manage to sharply reduce the amount of CO2 in the air, we'll get a lot less plant growth.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    72. Re:Natural device? by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      Paper mills and lumber companies can't use lobbyists to bully machinery-lumbering bills through congress to cut down every last CO2-removing tower from the face of the earth, would be my guess. It's just a theory, mind you.

    73. Re:Natural device? by mmu_man · · Score: 1

      In china ppl are paied to plant trees to stop desertification... so why not ?

    74. Re:Natural device? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Sure about that?

      I'm pretty sure a lot of it becomes soil and bits of other trees and stuff. It's not like trees evaporate the moment they die!

    75. Re:Natural device? by Markspark · · Score: 4, Informative

      The scrubber uses Sodiumhydroxide and Calciumhydroxide that are circulated and regenerated in the process. The power demand comes from separating the CO2 from the CaCO3 back into Ca(OH)2.
      But you are correct in the fact that this would require maintenance, since there's no such thing as maintenance free pumps.
      However i still feel if this could be a good solution, if it's cost and energy efficient, and being financed by carbon-taxing, and last but not least, F/OSH (free/opensource hardware).

      --
      i find your lack of faith in science disturbing!
    76. Re:Natural device? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that trees only "borrow" the CO2. Unless you plan to bury them, they eventually release their components back into the ecosystem.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    77. Re:Natural device? by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      If they emit more than they take in, is this the carbon equivalent of Hawking Radiation? Do the trees evaporate and then -poof- gone?

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    78. Re:Natural device? by moondawg14 · · Score: 1

      No, but if you have a million monkeys planting a million trees for a million years, one of them will eventually plant them on the Gettysburg address.

    79. Re:Natural device? by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      I prefer cannabis as a CO2 eating mechanism, but to each his own.

    80. Re:Natural device? by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, IIRC, you can burn H2 and CO2 and produce H2O and CO, so yes, assuming you had a ready supply of hydrogen, you could create some kind of internal combustion engine to burn off your captured CO2 and produce clean, pure water. Oh, and pure, clean carbon monoxide as well. Watch out when the atmospheric levels of that stuff starts to rise ...

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    81. Re:Natural device? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      However it is an issue of portability. Trees are not portable. As well their roots can be quite destructive and rather easily catch on fire. It takes years for a tree to become efferent at reducing CO2 A system which you can put on top of a buildings in a cities, in a desert, even underground is useful. No it is not about replacing trees but supplementing them in areas where they are not useful, or perhaps hazardous.
      There is an issue of politics, The United States doesn't have much in the terms of Rain Forests (a little but not much) It is other countries that control them. We cannot make a rain forest in America, however we can put up these devices.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    82. Re:Natural device? by jambox · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Some of it sticks around but not sure how much.

      But that isn't the point. You can use the wood for making stuff and so it hangs around as paper or a table for years. It all eventually goes back of course but if we were to use more paper and less plastic, you'd be storing a lot of it temporarily and the amount stored in "the system" would be higher.

      --
      You thought you could break the laws of physics without paying the PRICE?
    83. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I eat Tuna safe Dolphin.

    84. Re:Natural device? by sckeener · · Score: 1

      Well...people could be paid to plant them. Yeah, I know that trees can do this on their own....but can they do it in nice neat rows?

      Trees can't do nice neat rows...but we can have a crew to come through after and cut down all the ones that are out of line.

      and rather than hauling it off, they'll just burn the wood in nice carbon piles.

      --
      "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
    85. Re:Natural device? by rizole · · Score: 1

      They make tuna safe for dolphins now? Blimey, the seas are more toxic than I thought.
      I can't believe people take it out of the mouths of the poor, poor dolphin. They should issue them with lasers.

    86. Re:Natural device? by es330td · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The good news about a rise in CO levels is that it could have a limiting effect on the production of CO2 producers. We may kill off all the oxygen breathing life, but hey, we saved the planet so it's okay, right?

    87. Re:Natural device? by ThosLives · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is impossible for a device like this to be cost efficient in the present. It is unknown if it is cost efficient in the long run. Here's what I mean (caveat: I'm focusing wholly on economics here, not politics):

      These devices require a fixed cost to produce (in terms of materials not available for other machines, labor not available for other activities, cost of required associated infrastructure, etc.) and a recurring cost to operate (energy not available for other things, maintenance labor and parts not available for other activities, transportation of reclaimed CO2 to other locations, etc.). They do not, however, produce an immediately obvious economic benefit. By that I mean the creation and operation of this device does not make it easier to perform some other activity - unless that the CO2 produced by this device is less expensive than current methods of industrial CO2 production. It is not really even clear that there is a future benefit to this device.

      Now, I agree that reducing atmospheric CO2 will have an effect on average temperature. What I am not convinced of is the relative impact of climate change on world economic activity compared to other factors such as sheer population, politics, and other non-technical factors. But the fundamental unanswerable except in hindsight question is this: for each ton of CO2 removed per year from the atmosphere, what is the labor/material savings (if any) in the future, and does the rate of return on the "investment" of the CO2 reduction activities make this worthwhile? Put another way: Say today it takes me 1 hour to do activity X. If I spend 1+C hours on reducing CO2, will it then take me 1-q hours to perform activity X from that point onward so I have a good return on my investment? If the answer is no, then the "reduction" activity is a waste of resources from an economic standpoint.

      (By the way, there is no such thing as free/open source hardware - you can have free and open designs, but the hardware itself will always have an associated cost.)

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    88. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with trees is that they remove carbon from the atmosphere only when they are young. Established forests don't remove any carbon -- they don't keep accumulating their mass indefinitely. Any carbon stored in a tree translates to weight and volume increases. An old forest doesn't translate into a solid, impenetrable mass of wood, which it would have to if it kept absorbing carbon from the air. Most people tend to ignore this little inconvenient fact. Forests are quite ineffective, in terms of volume, at removing CO2 from the air, compared to artificial means of doing so.

    89. Re:Natural device? by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hey, you're right ...

      (runs to patent office)

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    90. Re:Natural device? by Windows_NT · · Score: 1

      Trees are only most effective in their early days, as soon as they hit a certain time in their life (half their age?) they stop being productive at filtering CO2. This is another good reason for clear cutting forests, so new plant life can grow.
      more on the subject, I think i seen this machine on the science channel the other night, and it looked like a steam engine. They ran it off a generator, and i think it had a 30:1 effectiancy rate (it removed 30 times more co2 than the generator it ran off of produced). And for some reason, they did the test in the middle of a stadium. It was really interesting. Now, we need to see cities (LA!) putting these things on roof tops. But then again, i down think 'we' are causing global warming, i think its the earth, its a cycle that been going on for thousands of years (earth = 6k years old, right?), there we times when earth had alot more co2 then it does now, there will be a time when it has alot less than now.

      --
      Go go Gadget Nailgun!
    91. Re:Natural device? by Sj0 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Trust me, that's no so great an idea right now. Thanks to our fearless leader, new housing development is at a low we haven't seen since 1974. You can chop down the trees, but good luck finding someone who wants them.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    92. Re:Natural device? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      I say we plant maple trees and extract the sweet-sweet C02 during the fall/winter.

    93. Re:Natural device? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      You're making the poor assumption that the Slashdot population is educated.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    94. Re:Natural device? by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      Some (including one which should be obvious to Canadians) produce more than one useful product.

      That famous tree of course being the sycamore tree.

      It creates wood AND poetry!

      --
      It's been a long time.
    95. Re:Natural device? by WoodstockJeff · · Score: 4, Funny

      Silly person, there is PLENTY of need for tree products in times like this! Have you EVER looked at the PAPERWORK needed to declare an economic downturn, let alone a depression?!?

    96. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His point is that the carbon is not destroyed

      If you burn either (or just let them die and then decompose, which will happen) they will both release carbon in the form of carbon dioxide.

      it's being stored by the tree in a form that will eventually be returned to the atmosphere as CO2.

    97. Re:Natural device? by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      When a tree dies and rots down, all of the carbon dioxide that it removed from the atmosphere gets released back into the atmosphere.

      However, we could bury dead trees in disused coal mines.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    98. Re:Natural device? by Sabathius · · Score: 1

      I know something better than trees for sequestering carbon dioxide from the atmosphere: Industrial Hemp

      By the way, it can help us replace those pesky petroleum products (yes, all of them) as well.

      Hemp for Victory!

    99. Re:Natural device? by vidarh · · Score: 1

      What do you think happens to the glucose?

    100. Re:Natural device? by russotto · · Score: 1

      Err.. The idea being then that at those depths, bacteria wouldn't get to them? Or that with no oxygen available, decomposition would be infeasible? I have to say, it sounds like an awful lot of work - first to do the digging, and secondly to actually place the cut-down trees in these deposits

      Well, you could drop them into certain parts of Lake Superior. We know from experience with logs accidentally dropped there don't decompose for hundreds of years. And no digging required.

    101. Re:Natural device? by Sj0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One of the major problems with algae-based biofuel is a lack of easy to obtain concentrated carbon dioxide.

      So desert + CO2 machine + solar panels + algae = self-powered biofuel engine

      --
      It's been a long time.
    102. Re:Natural device? by chanda3199 · · Score: 1

      I'll bite, though I probably shouldn't. The problem with *trees* cleaning up the CO2 is that you'd have to bury them when they died to sequester the CO2. Otherwise, as the tree rots, or is burned, or whatever...the CO2 is going to release straight back into the atmosphere.

    103. Re:Natural device? by bugg · · Score: 1

      I'm with you 100% on burning. Decomposing?

      If you were to follow carbon through decomposing, I'd imagine most of it ends up in other lifeforms (fungal, bacterial) consuming the carbon, and I believe they are using the carbon (carbohydrates) to add to their biomass. If I eat a pound of bread, I'm pretty sure I won't exhale all of that carbon as CO2, I think some of it would end up in my muscles, in my fat, etc.

      Of course, eventually I will die (or so they say), but it seems to me that increasing the total amount of biomass on the planet decreases the CO2 in the air.

      --
      -bugg
    104. Re:Natural device? by Sj0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Paperwork is SO 1929. Everyone does things electronically now. You can bankrupt the nation entirely over the Internet now!

      --
      It's been a long time.
    105. Re:Natural device? by psychosol · · Score: 3, Informative

      Its True! Trees do remove CO2 from the air! The problem starts, and this is where there is much misunderstanding, with what happens to the carbon in the long term. A tree will absorb a large amount of CO2 during its lifetime, but when after its lifetime, that carbon is released again as the tree decays, or is burned as fuel, etc. The point of CCS is to place the captured carbon in a state that it can be stored for the long term (1000's of years). The problem isn't so much that we are performing processes that release CO2 into the atmosphere, but that the CO2 we are releasing is "new", as in it used to be sequestered underground in a stable form, and now it is being added to our atmosphere. That is why bio-diesel, even if it wasn't less harmful than oil-based diesel, is still an advantage because the CO2 it releases was taken from our atmosphere to begin with, making it close to carbon-neutral. The point is to stop ADDING CO2 to our atmosphere, and start removing and storing it for the long term.

    106. Re:Natural device? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      Just wonder how much do we have to wait for a fart capture device (cow farts are actually a major source of trouble)

      Major industry would have you believe this (especially the oil industry).

      But let me ask you this:
      Back when the first settlers came to North America a number of centuries ago, and there were bison as far as they could see in large areas, and they were all eating and farting and burping, why wasn't there significant pollution and global warming?

      Not saying that they aren't a cause of some of it, but I certainly wouldn't call it a major source.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    107. Re:Natural device? by pjbgravely · · Score: 1

      Since the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is only 385 parts per million by volume the engine would have to suck huge amounts of air to get enough to run.

      --
      Star Trek, there maybe hope.
    108. Re:Natural device? by samkass · · Score: 1

      A forest consumes and locks up huge amounts of fresh water, though. Being able to scrub CO2 with sunlight alone might be significantly better for the environment in some areas than needing the sun and water together.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    109. Re:Natural device? by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 2, Informative

      If we're serious about reducing the carbon dioxide level by growing trees, we'll have to cut them down and store the wood somewhere where it won't decay. We will also have to replenish the trace elements taken from the soil by those trees so we can grow more. This could work to slowly remove the excess carbon dioxide we've released, but I don't think it would be feasible to keep up with our current rate of emissions.

      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
    110. Re:Natural device? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The earth can deal with a certain amount of carbon itself though, so you might not need all 450 million.

      It would at least be beneficial in slowing down global warming until we have a better solution.

      But you know damned well that 99% of the population is going to say: "Ok, great! We've got these CO2 filter thingies now, so the problem is solved. Now where's the keys to my Hummer?"

      And the better solution is never going to come along.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    111. Re:Natural device? by j_166 · · Score: 1

      "Seriously: Trees are just a carbon sink. Accordingly, when trees rot, the carbon will be set free again.
      Having a "machine" remove the excess carbon formerly bound to dessert ground from air would help us compensate the loss of trees through forest burning and chopping as well as the carbon set free by burning oil. However, I would not know what machine is sustainable, effective and efficient in this way yet."

      Tell me more about this "dessert ground". It sounds delicious. Can I get mine with sprinkles?

    112. Re:Natural device? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      What the hell is a gigawatt?

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    113. Re:Natural device? by sleigher · · Score: 1

      Well it might not be all bad. We can have lots of soda and seltzer water for everyone.....

      --
      All points of time and space are connected.
    114. Re:Natural device? by bugg · · Score: 1

      Remember that an adult tree releases about as much CO2 as it releases oxygen.

      Cite? I have a hard time believing this is true, as long as photosynthesis is still happening.

      --
      -bugg
    115. Re:Natural device? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      It's used by the tree as energy source. Your point being?

    116. Re:Natural device? by didroe84 · · Score: 1

      Well we're going to start running out of economically feasible oil soon, so there'll be other reasons to invest in other technologies. I just think it'll take something like that, something that has an obvious impact on peoples lives, before anything substantial is done. In the mean time we need to come up with a short term solution to global warming, as that isn't obvious enough for people to care about it.

    117. Re:Natural device? by GeckoX · · Score: 1

      Heck, if Bush gets his bailout pushed through, they'll need at least a few trees to print all that shiny new money won't they?

      --
      No Comment.
    118. Re:Natural device? by Merls+the+Sneaky · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually methane from bovines is expelled in the form of burps, very little methane is farted out.

    119. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, pretty effective... One massive scrubber can remove the CO2 of about 400 people during a year of operation, assuming is never goes offline....

      well, if this is the one aired on the Discovery Channel 2 weeks ago (thanks for being late the the party /.) then the fluid in it needs to be changed every day or so, meaning downtime. Also, massive recurring costs.

      This also did not account for the energy losses of getting the CO2 out of the fluid and into a stable state, transferring it somewhere to be stored, and burying it underground where it won't outgas.... The energy to do that I'm sure, combined with the 100 megawats per tonne already added, should mean we'd be producing more CO2 than sequestering. (Discovery left that tiny detail out).

      Oh, and even if they scale this up multiple factors, and run tens of thousands of collection sites across this country (instead of the 1 million we'd need at this scale), and come up with enough fluid to operate in that capacity, the cost is simply rediculous...

      Check out www.dotyenergy.com instead. Why sequester CO2 from the air when we can reduce CO2 emissions by 50% in the first place by sequestering at coal production sites, then use wind energy to combine that CO2 with H2 (acquired on site from hydrolisys) with some additional energy from wind, and we can make gasoline, ethanol, lubricants, any hydrocarbon you want. This process is called RFTS and we used in in WWII to make fuel for militarty jeeps. It's old tech, optimized with new processes and patents (over 60 awarded international patents!) and it can be done for about $80/barrel (ie cheaper than drilling).

      Eliminate new CO2 from oil entering the air, use CO2 from coal twice. Eventually, make enough WindFules to replace coal in power plants with windfuel itself and be re-using that CO2 indefinetly, loosing only what vehicles produce to the air, which in 30 years will drop by a factor of 5 itself. 30 years from now, we could be producing as little at 20% of the CO2 we are today, which trees can handle just fine... We'll have infinite fuel (until we find something better), no longer be dependent on foreign energy, and yes, there is actually enough wind in the USA texas Wind Corridor alone to make enough fuel, in fact, we could make enough the the entire hemesphere on just that.

      Estimated project total cost, $200 million per facility running at 250MW, that makes 500,000 barels a day of fuels, plus all the support systems required, energy to collect and transport input elements, cost of distribution systems, etc, is 30-40 trillion over 30 years. Easily dooable. Easily the cheapest alternative offered, and it has no impact on food costs, no wasted farmland, no expensive drilling for non-neutral fuels, and the process is clean and safe. It only needs funding.

      Don't believe it? Check out the site, dotyenergy.com They're offering all of their research in paper form if you pay for printing fees, but the site alone is highly detailed and gives not only technological, but economic analysys. A typical 200MW RFTS plant would produce enough fuel to pay for itself in 2-5 years depending on where it's built, and what access it has to wind for power and water for hydrolysis.

    120. Re:Natural device? by Jogar+the+Barbarian · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure, but you need 1.27 of them to go forward in time.

      --
      3. Profit!
      2. ???
      1. On Soviet Slashdot, a Beowulf cluster of alien Natalie Portman overlords welcomes YOU!
    121. Re:Natural device? by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      his point being that glucose is not only used as an energy source but also is converted to cellulose, a polysaccharide, which itself is the main structural component of a plant.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    122. Re:Natural device? by jambox · · Score: 1

      A forest also supports a huge web of life. Insects, fungi, mammals, birds, amphibians, all sorts. If that web is disrupted significantly, who knows what the side effects will be? Certainly they will include changes to atmospheric composition. Also desertification and loss of biodiversity.

      --
      You thought you could break the laws of physics without paying the PRICE?
    123. Re:Natural device? by expat.iain · · Score: 1

      I suppose you eat dolphin safe tuna as well?!

      Only until John West starts to market dolphin chunks in brine.

    124. Re:Natural device? by shbazjinkens · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Can't anyone remember the source of this??

      1.) Collect underpants
      2.) ???
      3.) Profit!

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underpants_Gnomes

    125. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So are government funded tree planters, but who's counting?

    126. Re:Natural device? by blueg3 · · Score: 2, Informative

      They don't respirate as much CO2 as they take up. The carbon from the difference is used to build more tree.

    127. Re:Natural device? by fugue · · Score: 1

      I believe money is made from cotton hereabouts...

      --
      "The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
    128. Re:Natural device? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      I don't understand what all the fuss is all about. It's CO2, not C, that's making the climate warmer. The C in the CO2 came from these plants in the first place: natural oil originates from decomposed animals and plants. So the C is now returning to where it came from and isn't making the climate warmer. What's the problem?

      Or rather, what are you expecting? You can't get rid of the C because of the law of conservation of mass.

    129. Re:Natural device? by Mikkeles · · Score: 1

      Who was it that said;

      "An apostrophe does not mean lookout there's an S coming"

      beav007 in this

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    130. Re:Natural device? by hey! · · Score: 1

      The interesting thing about the tree suggestion is that we may have reached peak oil. I you plant a new forest, that forest will be a net absorber of CO2 for decades, until, as a mature trees, it reaches more of an equilibrium with some trees dying and releasing CO2 as seedlings takes their place.

      At some point on the decline side of the production curve, it might well be practical to balance the remaining carbon emissions by planting trees.

      I'm not sure that's true today. Just one of these devices can remove carbon a lot faster than even a large number of growing trees. The other advantage is that they can switched off.

      One problem with climate change is not that humans can't adapt to a different climate, it's that they can't adapt fast enough. The same goes for ecosystems, but on a much, much longer time scale. While it may be ecologically desirable to return CO2 to pre-industrial levels, the climate impact of that may be just as bad, economically speaking, as continued warming.

      We could watch the impact of sequestration, and slow or stop it as the problems it creates begin to counterbalance the ones it solves.

      Of course, the huge problem with this is that every scenario has winners and losers. Russia is quite looking forward to a warm Siberia, and access to an open polar sea.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    131. Re:Natural device? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      It's like a watt but there are more of them ;)

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    132. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solar powered, created from dirt, and water. Brilliant!

    133. Re:Natural device? by OldSoldier · · Score: 1

      Oh honestly, you green bottomed hairy hippie! Why plant trees that will cleanly and effectively remove the carbon from the air, when we can invent a MACHINE to do it that will use electricity and require parts and labour and all that? You greenies and your whacky nature ideas. Honestly! How exactly do trees generate jobs?

      The problem with trees is they're only a CC solution (carbon capture) and not a storage solution. What we need is to plant a bunch of trees, harvest them, chop them up into sawdust and bury them in the earth. Rinse, repeat. Then we'll have a tree based CCS solution. Plus, if we wait a few million years, we'll also have replacement oil!

    134. Re:Natural device? by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      "They won't be making a pile of cash out of trees."

      Ummm that's not entirety accurate.

      I am pretty sure a pile of cash is made out of trees. Ba dum dum! Bing!

    135. Re:Natural device? by boarder · · Score: 1

      It's all ball bearings these days.

      --
      IANAL, but I play one on /.
    136. Re:Natural device? by philspear · · Score: 1

      I like it that here, on slashdot, every newest chip from X chip maker that is incrementally better gets a big fanfare, and open versions of Y application are important, but someone thinking up a solution to a huge problem and trying to sell it? Freaking evil and stupid man.

      Trees take years to get to a point where they have a net negative effect on carbon, and even then they don't suck it down like they're designed to clean up our messes because they're not designed to clean up our messes. Plus planting enough trees to offset our carbon emissions is unrealistic.

      This proposal is undoubtedly not going to solve the problem and has problems of it's own, but it's at least a step in the right direction. I'm not an expert in anything related to this, so I'm not going to guess as to whether it's more realistic than planting enough trees or injecting the oceans with iron or whatever.

    137. Re:Natural device? by CrazedSanity · · Score: 1

      It seems more efficient. Except trees don't use electricity, and therefore don't contribute to the original problem, pollution, etc. Oh, and did anybody remember that trees produce oxygen, whereas these machines most decidedly do not? That seems like a rather important detail.

      --
      Sanity is like a condom: rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
    138. Re:Natural device? by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      SO 450 million square meters? i wonder how many rooftops that is?

      Not to mention building walls, even if just in the alleyways of major cities.... I suspect we could find 450 M square meters of surface area without even trying.

      The bigger question is how much does it cost per year to maintain, ie it's total cost of ownership.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    139. Re:Natural device? by samkass · · Score: 1

      True, but I was thinking more about forestation of previously open land. For an area which has been without a forest for a century or two, re-introducing trees doesn't necessarily instantly make everything better. It could significantly limit the surface freshwater and change the albedo... I'm not against forests, I'm just saying there may be a role for an artificial solar-powered carbon-scrubber in an ecologically friendly deployment. And that "Just Add Trees!" isn't necessarily the answer to everything.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    140. Re:Natural device? by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

      and others to make things with it.

      Like firewood?

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    141. Re:Natural device? by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the Manglement chain prints out copies at every level, so you have to figure that in. You end up grinding x*3 trees to paper pulp for every x trees you saved by going paperless. . .

    142. Re:Natural device? by mikael · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They are, the only downside is that the oceans are gradually becoming acidic (carbonic acid) from all that CO2 being produced.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    143. Re:Natural device? by Atticka · · Score: 1

      Ok, so up here in Canada (Quebec) we use Hydro, can you factor that into your equation?

      What if we hook these scrubbers to solar power?

      Also:
      less than 100 kilowatt-hours of electricity per tonne.

      So we don't exactly know how efficient these towers will be when in production.

      --
      No sig here...
    144. Re:Natural device? by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

      How much carbon is created by a coal power plant for each tonne of carbon removed? If you create more than you remove, then it isn't very useful.

      If you insist that it be plugged into some non-burning plant, then all you are doing is removing that non-polluting power from the grid, which has to be made up by polluting power.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    145. Re:Natural device? by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      To save time they are printing on rolls. I hear the Charmin dollar bills are extra soft.

      Good thing too considering how hard the taxpayers are about to take it...

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    146. Re:Natural device? by ctetc007 · · Score: 1

      Indeed!

      When I was little and first heard about the growing level atmospheric CO2, I thought "Great, now all the trees have more CO2 to breathe." Didn't occur to me that we didn't have enough trees to convert the CO2.

    147. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The scrubber sounds pretty effective. No waiting for it to grow, and it's more space-efficient, which is good for cities and industrialized areas.
      A lot of unused space is there for us on the oceans. So why not floating "towers", powered by waves and solar that silently do their job without competing with us or the nature on the land space? I'd rather have trees occupying the land and keep any wacky artificial man-made towers out of my sight.

    148. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks captain obvious. I'm sure the 2 or 3 people living under a rock who have never heard this meme before are infinitely relieved to be in on the joke now.

    149. Re:Natural device? by non-sequitur · · Score: 1

      (earth = 6k years old, right?),

      You must be American, right?
      Come on - at least put a smiley if you're being facetious.
      (and if you're not being facetious in that statement - well, God help you!;-)

    150. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then we just need wood-based polymers to replace plastics, preferrably non-biodegradable ones.

    151. Re:Natural device? by rnj · · Score: 2, Funny

      A friend of mine spent a fair amount of time planting trees.

      Green side up was their mantra

    152. Re:Natural device? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Don't we have a device that removes CO2 from the air? I thought they were called "trees."

      Trees remove CO2 from the air while they live. As soon as they die, they start dumping that CO2 back into the air. So planting trees just moves the problem back by the lifetime of the tree, or requires that we find a way to dispose of every dead tree in the world pretty much as soon as they die, without releasing the CO2 within them.

      Maybe we could shoot them into the Sun....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    153. Re:Natural device? by frogzilla · · Score: 1

      Careful. Planting trees on a large scale will change the surface albedo and moisture balance. The albedo change will probably act to increase absorption of incoming shortwave radiation which could result in a net warming. The real result depends on what the trees are replacing. Crops? Grassland? Shrubs? The moisture balance problem is more complicated but could have negative or positive feedbacks. Studies in the Amazon region have shown that tree removal or addition on the scale of 50 km causes significant local changes to rainfall and cloud cover.

      Also, trees won't grow where they won't grow. That is, you can only plant them where conditions are appropriate. Finally, trees die eventually and unless you bury their carcasses somewhere deep the carbon all goes back into the system. That's why it is called a carbon cycle.

      My point is that none of this is simple. I don't think we are going to engineer an easy solution whether it is with mechanical devices or natural ones.

    154. Re:Natural device? by jaguth · · Score: 0

      Thats a great idea, we can grow trees, cut them down, and store them underground so they somehow don't decay, some kind of fosolization-olism-ma-thing-a-jig... something that doesn't naturally occur. I know, we could call it coal!

    155. Re:Natural device? by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      The suffering pulp and paper industry would disagree with you.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    156. Re:Natural device? by bazorg · · Score: 0, Redundant

      In Soviet Russia, dolphins and tuna net you.

    157. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose you eat dolphin safe tuna as well?!

      No, but I do eat tuna safe dolphines. hmmm

      Toss me the speech center of the brain, will you?

    158. Re:Natural device? by eonlabs · · Score: 1

      wood storage in places with little water should do it.
      There's a whole belt of desert going around the planet, why not bury it there.

      Grow trees,
      Build underground desert housing,
      ???
      profit!

      (runs to patent office)

      --
      I wouldn't consider the mad hatter mad. Just reality impaired. He sure can make a mean cup of tea.
    159. Re:Natural device? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      Sure about that?

      Yes we're sure about that. ;-)

      the tree *is* carbon. if it 'goes away' the carbon comes back into the environment, whether from burning or decay. CO2 goes into tree, O2 comes out. The carbon stays in the tree. If the tree disappears the 'C' didn't disappear, it just changed it's properties (solid -> gas).

      Look at a graph of seasonal CO2 levels and in the fall and winter, it goes up as the leaves fall off and decay. Same thing happens when the tree dies, just on a bigger and longer scale.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    160. Re:Natural device? by Windows_NT · · Score: 1

      Question 1: Yes, Facetious
      Question 2: Yes, American (Minnesotan)
      I was trying to be a good slashdotter by making references about another article (cant find link, about oldest rocks found). But damn, you caught me. mod +1 for effort? screw it, im gonna go kill a tree, my karma is shot.

      --
      Go go Gadget Nailgun!
    161. Re:Natural device? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      After hearing that Saturn's moon Titan contained significant amounts of hydrocarbons, I've heard someone comment that we didn't need to worry about running out of oil, because by then we'd have the technology to go to Titan and bring back huge cargo shipments of methane.
      The fact that this idea even occurs to someone, anyone, tells me that we as a society are desperate to maintain the status quo, even if it is horribly impractical to do so.

      People will keep burning oil to the very last drop on earth, simply because it's what they've always done.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    162. Re:Natural device? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      You're right on the money about not having a good idea of the actual cost to benefit ratio.

      But some factors to consider:
      how much will it cost to relocate the hundreds of millions of people as sea levels rise? That won't be cheap.
      how expensive to farm land that's now a desert?
      how much more A/C used in areas that are hotter now (obviously offset by some less heating costs used in arctic/cold regions - but most people don't live there)

      I'm sure there are lots of other factors going both ways on cost, but I think it's reasonable to assume the vast majority of the effect will be increasing costs associated with global warming. Assuming you can run the towers on solar, and the transport vehicles are run on hydrogen produced from solar, etc, the 'costs' of running the system can be reduced pretty significantly.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    163. Re:Natural device? by inviolet · · Score: 1

      Yeah trees grow real slow. But over the years a tree will still soak up tons of CO2, plus they cost nothing, there's no maintenance [...]

      As the owner of a softwood lumber plantation, I assure you that you are hilariously mistaken.

      And never mind the cost of the land itself, which is high and still rising, especially if the land is easily accessible from civilization.

      In any event, the CO2 will remain sequestered only if the trees are harvested, preserved as a product like lumber or paper, and *not* recycled.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    164. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If apostrophes meant "ZOMGHereComesAnS", we would type "treeZOMGHereComesAnSs", but they don't, so we don't.

      ZOMGHereComesAnSSpeak for yourself, you you tiny-brained wiper of other peopleZOMGHereComesAnSs bottomZOMGHereComesAnSs!

    165. Re:Natural device? by operagost · · Score: 1

      Intriguing! Really; there were millions.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    166. Re:Natural device? by inviolet · · Score: 1

      A page I dug up claims a single tree removes "on average 50 pounds (22 kg) of carbon dioxide annually over 40 years."

      Here in the south, a loblolly pine will grow to 5 tons in 25 years. Of that 5 tons, half is wood (the other half is lignin and water), and of that wood, half is carbon (wood is made of sugar which is CHON). So that's around 1.25 tons of carbon per tree after 25 years, or about 100 pounds per year.

      But that's here in the south where everything grows faster. Maybe your numbers are averaged to include hardwoods, which do indeed grow far more slowly.

      In any case, 100 pounds of carbon equals a bit more than 300 pounds of CO2.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    167. Re:Natural device? by operagost · · Score: 1

      How long does a tree live? How much of its mass becomes gaseous? Like the GP said, it doesn't evaporate. If it did, it would be a lot easier to haul away.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    168. Re:Natural device? by operagost · · Score: 1

      But largely not to the air, which is where CO2 is allegedly a problem.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    169. Re:Natural device? by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 1

      I know, we could call it coal!

      That would roughly be the result, which demonstrates why this is likely to be insufficient while we are still burning much fossil fuel.

      There are other proposals that might be more effective, such as pulverizing certain rocks (serpentine?) and getting them to absorb the carbon dioxide from the air. This has the advantage of creating a stable and non-toxic end product that doesn't need any long term care.

      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
    170. Re:Natural device? by aukset · · Score: 1

      Cant we just grow up now and realise we have to
      be moderate in our consumption of the planets resources instead of trying to trick our way out ?

      I don't think you understand human nature. Your solution requires changing a significant percentage of the population's behavior - I don't give it much chance of success.

      What kind of defeatist bullcrap is that? Large populations can and do change their behavior. It may take multiple generations to achieve, but throwing your hands up in the air and saying it can't be done in my lifetime, therefore it can't be done is exactly the kind of short sighted thinking that puts humanity into this kind of mess in the first place. We aren't dealing with this for our own selfish interests, but for our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren whose behaviors we have a very good chance to set right if we try.

      --
      No sig now
    171. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we know trees are lazy

    172. Re:Natural device? by Spittoon · · Score: 1

      If, however, the tree is harvested for human use, ... some of it may be stored for decades to centuries (construction, paper).

      Yeah, in a landfill. :-/

    173. Re:Natural device? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      What kind of defeatist bullcrap is that?

      Pragmatism. Frankly I think that humans are like locusts and will use up all available resources as fast as we can reproduce.

      It's only in rich countries (or a single authoritarian country) that birth rates are low, which leads me to believe the best way to reduce birth rate is to increase the standard of living for everyone. Unfortunately, we can't do this without running out of resources given current technology. So, the way I see it, the only way to win here is to improve technology.

      Otherwise, you are right that behavior will change - but for the BAD reason that we'll run out of resources.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    174. Re:Natural device? by Macman408 · · Score: 1

      But you know damned well that 99% of the population is going to say: "Ok, great! We've got these CO2 filter thingies now, so the problem is solved. Now where's the keys to my Hummer?"

      And the better solution is never going to come along.

      On the other hand, their kids will see this, and many of them might just realize that there's a better way (especially if we teach them that there is!). Breaking habits is very difficult. You won't get most of the population to change their ways any time soon - the real change will happen over generations.

    175. Re:Natural device? by Macman408 · · Score: 1

      Having tons of liquified CO2 sitting around does not sound like a long term solution.

      So maybe we should plan to reverse these reactions we've been relying on for energy for the last few centuries? All sorts of fuel exist, and don't really seem to have a big effect on the environment - so let's take our CO2 and a bunch of energy, and produce fuel. It can be safely stored away where we got it from, until somebody forgets why we did that in the first place, and they go burn it all again.

      The disadvantage - this would require us to make not just all of our current energy consumption green, but also a significant percentage above what we consume in order to reverse the damage done. So this might be a long term solution, but it's a long time away from being feasible.

    176. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Scrubbing C02 instead of trees? Let's replace one problem with another... For example:

      Combustion of saturated hydrocarbons (Alkanes), basis of petroleum fuels, the fuel cycle formula is:

      CnH(2n+2) + 1/2 nO2 -> (n+1)H2 + nCO

      If we use the cleanest of the alkanes, methane (n = 1), the process of combustion becomes:

      2CH4 + O2 undergoes oxidative pyrolysis to 4H2 + 2CO
      and the 2CO + O2 oxidizes to 2CO2
      and the 4H2 + 2O2 oxidizes to 4H2O
      thus the result is two carbon dioxide molecules and 4 water molecules for every two methane molecules and 4 oxygen molecules

      So if we were burning methane (the cleanest of the hydrocarbons) and producing 20 tonnes of CO2 molecules and 2 times that amount of water molecules, then we're using 2 times that amount in oxygen molecules. Obviously this an example only and is simplistic but is food for thought. According to Wikipedia, it is put forward that human activities hasn't affected global oxygen levels to date reasoning that that photosynthesis can replace our current amount in 2000 years. Isn't photosynthesis a biological result? And what is the affect of human activities on these biological processes?

      I'm pretty sure if we have a whiz-bang way of sequestering CO2 and continue producing it at the current levels, we better be damn sure that our "photosynthesis" processes are not affected. Remember that our planet earth is a fairly "closed" system.

    177. Re:Natural device? by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Am I missing something obvious here...?

      Uh, yeah. When a tree burns or decomposes, what happens to those stored sugars? All of that carbon becomes CO2 again. That's bakuun's point.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    178. Re:Natural device? by ThosLives · · Score: 1

      Talking about moving costs is tricky. Think about it in terms of investment: If I spend X resources now on cleaning up CO2, how many resources will I have after N years? Now, if I don't spend X on cleaning up CO2 and spend it on activity Q instead, how many resources will I have after N years? Even accounting for having to move in the future, you may still be better off spending resources on Q now instead of reducing CO2 even if you have to move in the future. This is the point I think most people forget - yes, you may have to move, but it may not really cost as much as you think.

      I would argue that it would be more cost effective to invest in technologies which allow large numbers of people to relocate more easily. That way, you're protected against many more situations than those associated only with atmospheric CO2.

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    179. Re:Natural device? by computechnica · · Score: 1

      We could always sequester the tree trunks. Place them in abandon mine shafts, Bury then under the Ice in Antarctica, or sink them to the bottom of the Marianas Trench with heavy nuclear waste.

    180. Re:Natural device? by natedubbya · · Score: 1

      But the real question ... when do you turn the machines off? Is the year 1920 the ideal optimal CO2 year for all of earth for eternity?

    181. Re:Natural device? by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      So the law of conservation of mass is real, what a big surprise. What are you expecting? What are you hoping for? That the C mysteriously disappears?

      So no, I don't get your point. The carbon may be freed after the tree dies, but carbon will be freed eventually *no matter what* solution. At least trees do something useful with it. What can humans do with CO2? Not much, except maybe storing them in salt mines. Trees on the other hand can last hundreds of years, and are essential for animal life.

    182. Re:Natural device? by jdcope · · Score: 1

      They won't be making a pile of cash out of trees.

      Must be why Weyerhaeuser is in the Fortune 500.

    183. Re:Natural device? by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Uhm, I'm sorry? Last time I checked trees convert CO2 to oxygen instead of simply storing CO2 into their bodies!

      "... where do the carbon atom go?" It's converted to glucose...

      So the law of conservation of mass is real, what a big surprise. What are you expecting? What are you hoping for? That the C mysteriously disappears?

      You're not paying attention to yourself, are you? Or maybe you're just trolling. You spout off something incomplete and nonsensical, and then try to defend yourself using our points.

      To address the rest of your post: Carbon exist. It has been stored on the planet in trees, and in the ground, among other places. We are releasing the carbon that is stored in those places. We don't like the carbon that is now stored in our atmosphere. If one accepts the premise that perilous climate change is being caused by the carbon in our atmosphere, then we must move it elsewhere. Because a part of that carbon came from trees, a part of it could be sequestered in trees again. Unless you count the timber and construction industries, this wont do anything more than putting back a portion of the carbon that we have released. If you covered the planet with plant growth, we would still have all the carbon released from petroleum products in the atmosphere.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    184. Re:Natural device? by Intron · · Score: 1

      According to the DOE 1,787,910 thousand metric tons of CO2 are released by coal to generate 1,881,571 million kWh, which if my calculator has not failed me, means that generating the 100 kWh used by the device to capture one metric ton of CO2 would release less than 0.1 metric ton of CO2. So it has about a 10:1 advantage which could be increased with technological improvements.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    185. Re:Natural device? by MacDork · · Score: 1

      They won't be making a pile of cash out of trees.

      Yes, because cash, a.k.a. legal tender, can only be made of gold or silver according to the US Constitution, article 1, section 10. Anything else is explicitly unconstitutional.

    186. Re:Natural device? by BryanL · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that be 450,000,000 square meters of scrubbing material, not actual towers? Still a lot of towers, but not on the magnitude you are imagining.

    187. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your wit isn't very flattering. There is only a set amount of biomass (give or take) that will be present in any given forested area, because once a tree grows there, there's not enough room for another one. And once the tree growing there dies and rots, to make room for a new one, the CO2 it stored is released. Rotting cellulose is consumed by bacteria, which releases CO2 into the air.

      Why not plant trees on every square metre in the world then? For the same reason they were cut down in the first place - expansion of human living areas, agricultural land to feed an ever growing global population, paper and furniture consumption. And a lot of the areas that can naturally have trees growing on them already have.

      A machine that can be powered by, for example, a nuclear power plant, extracting infinite amounts of CO2 and storing it in stockpiles, is absolutely very interesting.

    188. Re:Natural device? by MacDork · · Score: 1

      Surface acidification occurs because CO2 is not the limiting nutrient. I think it's ironic that a process which once scrubbed the air of CO2 no longer works due to clean air regulations.

    189. Re:Natural device? by willy_me · · Score: 1

      But a tonne of coal results in much more then a tonne of CO2. There are those two oxygen atoms for each carbon atom that you have to take into account. So each tonne of coal actually results in > 3 tonnes of CO2.

    190. Re:Natural device? by willy_me · · Score: 1

      Ok, just did a few of my own calculations.

      1 metric tonne of coal = 6705kwh of energy (ignoring heat -> electricity losses)

      assume 40% efficient conversion = 2682 kwh/tonne coal

      assuming coal is pure carbon = 731 kwh/tonne CO2

      With all the assumptions that are required your calculation is probably good. I'm not completely sure if you assumed that 1 tonne CO2 = 1 tonne coal. But either way, I just managed to procrastinate for another 15 minutes...

    191. Re:Natural device? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      it's not 'evaporation' but decomposition and yes that does produce quite a lot of gaseous emissions.

      from linky:
      "The chemical aspects of plant decomposition always involve the release of carbon dioxide."

      It's also the basis for quite a few methane recoupment projects at landfills; stuff decays and becomes gaseous. Microbes, bacteria, etc all work to decompose matter into various parts of the original.

      As for how long a tree lasts, I'd pull a figure out of the ether and say 100 yrs on average for all trees. We know a few are a cpl thousand, but even that is very young in terms of the cyclical nature of the environment of tens or hundreds of thousands of years, even millions.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    192. Re:Natural device? by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

      You can bankrupt the country over the internet in theory...

      but it doesn't really count until you print out the statement and mail it.

      --
      Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
      --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
    193. Re:Natural device? by WeblionX · · Score: 1

      Running to the patent office?

      (drives to patent office)

      --
      (\(\
      (=_=) Bani!
      (")")
    194. Re:Natural device? by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      If we got off the mantra of recycling paper in the current form(that is, using giant plants to repulp it) and used it in a form of fertilizer instead, and cut down the trees to use in the milling process(and lumber) it'd be a more efficient solution.

      The enviro-hippies have done a pretty good job of screwing up and trying to tell people that we're deforesting North America.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    195. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I think research has shown it's mainly cow burps. http://news.staging.sbs.com.au/worldnewsaustralia/methane_from_burping_cows_to_be_measured_538598

      Not to be pedantic or anything...

    196. Re:Natural device? by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Actually, it was a few months ago in a post here somewhere, thats not the first time...Good line though eh?

    197. Re:Natural device? by beav007 · · Score: 1

      I think its actually been floating around for years. It's not the first time I've used it, either.

    198. Re:Natural device? by mikael · · Score: 1
      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    199. Re:Natural device? by MacDork · · Score: 1

      I guess that explains how algae blooms can form

      It doesn't, but it's interesting that you'd suggest it does with no evidence beyond a few unrelated articles.

    200. Re:Natural device? by swordfishBob · · Score: 1

      Well, you could keep the CO2 on-tap for putting out bushfires, so trees don't turn into CO2, and can keep doing their job of absorbing CO2.

      Has anyone else realised that burying paper made from trees is a means of geo-sequestration of carbon? Stop recycling!

      --
      -- All your bass are below two Hz
    201. Re:Natural device? by shawb · · Score: 1

      So all we have to do is stop recycling and start throwing our paper garbage into air tight landfills.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    202. Re:Natural device? by jambox · · Score: 1

      Yeah point taken. If the question is "what do we do about climate change?" then I just err towards the Lovelockian view, which is mostly about preserving existing ecology. I think it would be a serious mistake to allow greedy landowners and politicians to continue trashing forests and jungles and try to make it up with artificial trees.

      --
      You thought you could break the laws of physics without paying the PRICE?
    203. Re:Natural device? by jambox · · Score: 1

      That would be great, any plans in your garage?

      --
      You thought you could break the laws of physics without paying the PRICE?
    204. Re:Natural device? by flumps · · Score: 1

      trees suck... :)

      --
      "So there he is, risen from the dead. Like that fella, E. T." - Father Ted Crilly
    205. Re:Natural device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, trees and green plants do remove CO2 - but only during daylight. At night they take in oxygen and give off CO2. Come on people, learn the basics.

    206. Re:Natural device? by smyle · · Score: 1

      But you know damned well that 99% of the population is going to say: "Ok, great! We've got these CO2 filter thingies now, so the problem is solved. Now where's the keys to my Hummer?"

      So what's the inherent problem with Hummers? If they're not polluting and the owner can afford the fuel, I don't see a problem with it.

      (Yes, I realize that there's more to 'pollution' than just CO2. I'm purposely ignoring that for the sake of argument here.)

      --

      Sleep is just a poor substitute for caffeine, anyway. -Bob Lehmann

    207. Re:Natural device? by OhItsJustSeanV67 · · Score: 1

      But cows, when they produce too much CO2 can turn around to make the tasty steaks... And T-Bones! Beef Jerky for the Rednecks! Filets for the Rich! Meatloaf for the rest of us! It goes on and on!

    208. Re:Natural device? by Kotukunui · · Score: 1

      Just wonder how much do we have to wait for a fart capture device (cow farts are actually a major source of trouble)

      Coming from a country (New Zealand) where we almost instituted a tax on animal-based methane emissions (popularly called "The Fart Tax") I can tell you that the problem is actually "burps" rather than "farts".

      Ruminants mostly emit the methane from the front end. But FART is a better word to get into a headline...

      The tax was axed after pressure from the very powerful farming lobby forced the government to drop the proposal.

    209. Re:Natural device? by djstauf · · Score: 1

      Curiously, hockey sticks aren't generally made out of wood anymore; they're made out of... wait for it... carbon.

    210. Re:Natural device? by dwye · · Score: 1

      Cant we just grow up now and realise we have to be moderate in our consumption of the planets resources instead of trying to trick our way out ?

      Your solution requires changing a significant percentage of the population's behavior

      Don't be silly. His "solution" really contemplates the removal of a significant percentage of the population, just not him, and ideally no one that he likes, and lots of those that he doesn't (non-Green voters, non-Sierra Club contributers, all those people in Asia and Africa that would like to have a lifestyle equal to that of 1950s England, let alone USA, etc.).

    211. Re:Natural device? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Well, in a modern day version of paying the Pope for absolution, he could also give Al Gore's company a small amount of money to offset his "carbon footprint". Can't wait for everyone to jump off of this particular bandwagon.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    212. Re:Natural device? by mikael · · Score: 1

      I was thinking in terms of reaction-diffusion equations and CFD.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    213. Re:Natural device? by Spacelem · · Score: 1

      Okay, one reference is http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1561615/plants_may_not_absorb_additional_co2_from_warming/index.html

      Plants can only perform photosynthesis during the day, under exposure to light. They perform respiration at night, and emit CO2.

    214. Re:Natural device? by Uber+Banker · · Score: 1

      Depends on the scale, but on larger scales ball bearings have become decidedly uncommon over the past 5 decades, instead replaced by roller bearings and their load balancing variants.

  2. Just stop exhaling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After awhile, we will be dead and won't contribute to CO2. The plants will thrive and re-balance everything out.

    Truth be told, I really don't believe in trying to undo things that we have caused. We don't really know how big or small our footprint is. Let's continue to be dumb about it and when we do start dying off because of things that we do, balance will be attained.

  3. it this by doubtless · · Score: 0, Redundant

    A really big electric tree? :D

    --
    geek page at KY speaks
    1. Re:it this by compro01 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Only a lot more efficient. An average tree will use roughly 22kg of CO2 per year. These things are estimated to remove 20 tonnes per year per square metre, so it's in excess of 1000 times more effective. Even after you factor in the CO2 produced to provide the power needed for these things, you're still likely coming out way ahead.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    2. Re:it this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An average tree will use roughly 22kg of CO2 per year. These things are estimated to remove 20 tonnes per year per square metre, so it's in excess of 1000 times more effective.

      So plant 1000 trees.

    3. Re:it this by r_jensen11 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Only a lot more efficient. An average tree will use roughly 22kg of CO2 per year. These things are estimated to remove 20 tonnes per year per square metre, so it's in excess of 1000 times more effective. Even after you factor in the CO2 produced to provide the power needed for these things, you're still likely coming out way ahead.

      Only if you plant one tree, and don't use the tree for anything else.

      What about planting many more orange and apple trees? What about rubber trees?

      We can use trees for more than scrubbing carbon.

    4. Re:it this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This smells fishy to me, although I only read RTFA and not the paper. 20 tonnes in one metre square (? cubic metre perhaps) per year - that means >50kg a day. Do they employ a team of monkeys to clean the CO2 absorbant material of this large amount of carbon each day? Can they simply re use the absorbant material? If so what the hell is combining with the C02 to change it into something sequesterable? If not, they'd have to manufacture a hell of a lot of it, and I bet producing that much absorbant stuff and the machine itself takes a LOT more energy than 100kWh, in which case you're pumping a bunch more carbon out just to produce it...

    5. Re:it this by aaronrp · · Score: 1

      What about rubber trees?

      You have to watch out for the ants moving them.

  4. Is it effective? by Yetihehe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah, but how much energy does generating one tonne of CO2 give? It still just capturing CO2, they need still more energy to eventually convert it to fuel

    --
    Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    1. Re:Is it effective? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I assume that this device would be used with clean renewable energy sources to remove CO2 we've already pumped into the atmosphere. So, you'd run this thing at night when energy prices are low (around 1-2 cents/kwH) to help bring the atmosphere back into balance (and of course, you must be using wind or some other non-fossil fuel for electicty, duh).

      A couple of these machines by themselves won't do much, but hundreds of thousands of them powered by coastal wind farms or solar farms in the desert could definitely reverse some of the damage we've done (in conjunction with moving from coal to nuclear for base load power; electrification of transportation; etc).

    2. Re:Is it effective? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I almost forgot, these machines and the clean energy they need could be paid for using carbon credits. Nuclear energy in Northern Illinois (where I live) can be had for about a penny per kWh between midnight and 4 am (when base load is extremely low). So, if they can pull out a ton of CO2 from the atmosphere for 100 kwH of energy, you're looking at between $1-$2/ton in energy costs (capital costs for the equipment needs to be considered, as well as people to maintain everything).

    3. Re:Is it effective? by zobier · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but how much energy does generating one tonne of CO2 give?

      Given approximately 1.5 lb CO2/kWh, somewhere around 1400 kWh.

      --
      Me lost me cookie at the disco.
    4. Re:Is it effective? by Dragar · · Score: 1

      Having a scrubber that is effective at normal atmospheric concentrations is very interesting. As mentioned above, it could be located at a source of readily available clean energy, or run in off-peak hours, using waste electricity that is going to be generated anyway. I'd be interested to know what form the scrubbedc arbon is in, assuming a solid powder or something similar it could be a lot easier to store than when it has to be compressed for geo-sequestration. That process comrpesses CO2 to very high pressure at considerable energy cost, and due to the high pressure is an escape risk. If it is instead in a stable solid form it should be a lot easier and safer to store it, simple burial for example. Further benefit is that clean coal etc can at best reduce the amount of new carbon we emit into the atmosphere. That is the first issue to solve, certainly, but its nice to know that someone is working on ways (more efficient than trees) that can pull it out of the atmosphere once there.

    5. Re:Is it effective? by evanbd · · Score: 1

      Even better, put them near wind farms and run them when you have excess power -- it's not uncommon to see windfarms with half the windmills stopped because the winds are high and there's nowhere for the power to go because local load is low. That power could be had almost for free.

    6. Re:Is it effective? by elp · · Score: 1

      Then pump the CO2 through a series of bioreactors to pump up the growth of algae for biodiesel. That way you get the money from the carbon credits and you can resell whatever yield you can get out of the algae.

      Profit!!!

    7. Re:Is it effective? by Umrick · · Score: 1

      According to this report, the average CO2 produced per megawatt hour in 2000 was 0.668 tons. Given you could run 10 of these for that, and remove 200 tons in the process seems a reasonable return.

      http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oiaf/1605/cdrom/pdf/e-supdoc.pdf

    8. Re:Is it effective? by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Here's an idea:

      Grow grass until it browns, then burn it as fuel. This leaves you with energy and lots of ashes...which are mostly carbon. Bury the ashes in old limestone mines.

      You can even let the grass be one of the corn or wheat variety of grasses.

      Just a thought.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    9. Re:Is it effective? by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      With a carbon tax up to an order of magnitude higher than that, there's plenty of room for leeway even if your real-world efficiencies aren't as high. I'd agree that on paper, it almost looks lucrative.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    10. Re:Is it effective? by apoc.famine · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Damn...I just finished replying to a poster above you that using off-peak Nuclear power would probably be financially viable due to the cost per-ton of carbon emissions with a carbon tax or credit. You two-up that, perhaps without realizing it.

      First, you point out that they can use the excess energy, which would almost be free. However, a big issue with wind power is that gusts cause spikes in the output, which is usually either dumped or the turbines are braked because you can't just dump those spikes into the grid. Depending on how this works, you could dump those spikes to the carbon capture system. I'm guessing that it's not as finicky about its power requirements as our grid is, although I could well be wrong.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    11. Re:Is it effective? by rgpower · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but how much energy does generating one tonne of CO2 give? It still just capturing CO2, they need still more energy to eventually convert it to fuel

      Burning a ton of coal for energy generates ~2000kWh of energy, and 3.7 tons of CO2 (since coal is mostly carbon). Using this device to sequester said CO2 is going to use 370 of those kWhs. So assuming there aren't any ineffiencies in scaling up the operation, we've just made coal carbon-neutral at a cost of about 20% of it's usefulness.

  5. Mine is far more efficient by JumperCable · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's solar powered. No need to pay any electric bills. Maintenance & care is cheap dirt.
    http://pws.byu.edu/tree_tour/images/tree116small.jpg

    1. Re:Mine is far more efficient by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      G-God? Is that you?

    2. Re:Mine is far more efficient by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      Trees suck up large amount of CO2 when they're growing and convert it into plant matter. When they reach adulthood, the amount of CO2 they process drops off.

    3. Re:Mine is far more efficient by BlackMesaLabs · · Score: 1
      Then we can chop them down, make them into paper, and replant.

      The paper gets the TPS report printed on it, then gets buried in landfill, thus sequestering the CO2 safely in the earth until it gets converted back into fossil fuel in the distant future.

    4. Re:Mine is far more efficient by Petersson · · Score: 1

      Trees suck up large amount of CO2 when they're growing and convert it into plant matter. When they reach adulthood, the amount of CO2 they process drops off.

      Well, explain that to trees in my garden. The bastards just keep growing and growing, it simply sucks to clean all the old leaves and cut new branches every year.

      --
      I'm not insane. My mother had me tested.
    5. Re:Mine is far more efficient by JumperCable · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh dear, I hadn't thought of that.

      *poof*

    6. Re:Mine is far more efficient by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Number 16: The larch.

      The larch.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    7. Re:Mine is far more efficient by QX-Mat · · Score: 1

      And now...
      For something completely different: No.1.... Number 2 eh... 1 ...
      The Larch

    8. Re:Mine is far more efficient by doktorjayd · · Score: 1

      god is a poof?

    9. Re:Mine is far more efficient by bunratty · · Score: 1

      If trees are more efficient at removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, then explain how carbon dioxide is currently building up in the atmosphere. Shouldn't the trees be taking care of excess carbon dioxide already?

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    10. Re:Mine is far more efficient by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Search here for "QED": http://www.theninemuses.net/quotes/hitchhiker.html (and enjoy!)

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    11. Re:Mine is far more efficient by Pranadevil2k · · Score: 1

      No, but it turns out that proving that God doesn't exist makes him disappear in a puff of logic.

    12. Re:Mine is far more efficient by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      No, he just disappeared on a poof of logic.

      See HHGTG, The babel fish.

    13. Re:Mine is far more efficient by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes Kent. It's Jesus stop touching yourself?

  6. atmosphere processor from LV-426 by dhart · · Score: 1

    "[The team used] ... a custom-built tower to capture CO2 directly from the air..." Is it just me, or did everyone else also receive that instant mental image of the [nuked] atmosphere processor from LV-426?

    1. Re:atmosphere processor from LV-426 by sane? · · Score: 1

      Some of us watch Dr Who instead.

  7. Trees by rotteneffekt · · Score: 1

    might not be an option in highly populated areas

    1. Re:Trees by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Perhaps better metropolitan planning would be a good idea. But that would require zoning regulations with a backbone, rather than an outstreached hand waiting for bribe money^W^W proffers.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:Trees by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Zoning regulators (city council, etc) like that cannot exist in sufficient numbers for a sufficient period of time. They are normally replaced after an election or two with the broken models. I think people understand that politics is a dirty game played by thieves, but I don't think they're currently capable of choosing the good politicians from the bad. As one slashdoter said "99% of all lawyers make the rest of us look bad." I think the same holds for politicians.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
  8. Counterproductive by invisibleairwaves · · Score: 5, Funny

    > Canadian scientists have created a device that efficiently removes CO2 from the atmosphere.

    As a Canadian, I have to say I'm disappointed in my fellow countrymen. Just when you thought global warming would make our climate mildly tolerable, they go and mess it all up.

    Thanks, guys. I'm sure you'll regret this in a few months. No, I will not shovel your driveway.

    1. Re:Counterproductive by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, even without the CO2 the planet is still going to climate change ;)

    2. Re:Counterproductive by inode_buddha · · Score: 3, Funny

      You guys finally evolved driveways for your igloos, eh? Cool!

      --
      C|N>K
    3. Re:Counterproductive by rbanffy · · Score: 1

      Yes, but if this gets too efficient, we will end up in an ice age.

      And everywhere will look like Canada.

    4. Re:Counterproductive by khallow · · Score: 1

      I for one would not like to have a several kilometer thick icesheet on my driveway. It'd take several weekends to get rid of that.

    5. Re:Counterproductive by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      Canadian scientists have created a device that efficiently removes CO2 from the atmosphere.

      As a Canadian, I have to say I'm disappointed in my fellow countrymen. Just when you thought global warming would make our climate mildly tolerable, they go and mess it all up.

      You're disappointed? How do you think Finns and Icelanders will feel about this dreadful news? At least you Canadians get some kind of summer in Toronto & Montreal, and even in Winnipeg & Edmonton.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  9. 100 kWh per tonne of CO2 by viking80 · · Score: 1

    Since a coal fired power plant produces 100kg of CO2 to produce the electricity to remove one ton, you will have to remove that to, or 1,111kg. And then you will have to store it for a billion years.

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
  10. Reference point to CO2 emissions by Hays · · Score: 5, Informative

    Assuming that 1 tonne = 1000kg, this machine requires approximately 1 kilowatt hour of electricity to remove 10kg of Carbon Dioxide from the atmosphere. How efficient is this?

    From http://www.glumac.com/section.asp?catid=140&subid=152&pageid=564

    "For home energy use, carbon dioxide emissions vary widely from state-to-state and from day-to-day. The national average is about 1.3 pounds of carbon dioxide for every kilowatt-hour of electricity used in your home."

    Not bad. If it really works, you can redirect 10 to 15% of your electricity to achieve Carbon neutrality.

    1. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You've still got the energy cost of disposing of the CO2, by burying it or whatever. It has to be taken out of the carbon cycle completely.

    2. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by jimdread · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You've still got the energy cost of disposing of the CO2, by burying it or whatever. It has to be taken out of the carbon cycle completely.

      Then only way you can take it completely out of the carbon cycle is to blast it into space on a rocket. Carbon, being the fourth most abundant element in the universe, is everywhere on the planet. Fossil fuels, such as coal and oil, are made of fossilized plants and animals. In other words, fossil fuels are just as much part of the carbon cycle as carbon dioxide, plants, limestone, marble, kittens, and methane. Think about how the carbon got into the coal. It's part of a cycle. A very long cycle.

    3. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No need to put it in a rocket! Carbon is does not undergo chemical transformations under normal conditions. It won't go back to gaz or whatever without help. You can simply store it. Yet we have to calculate the storage volume that would require...

    4. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by shaitand · · Score: 1

      'You've still got the energy cost of disposing of the CO2, by burying it or whatever. It has to be taken out of the carbon cycle completely.'

      Why? If the carbon is coming from the air, releasing it back to the air would result in carbon levels remaining the same instead of increasing. Use said carbon to generate electricity/fuel cars (until more eco friendly solutions to these problems become prevelant) and you will reduce the new carbon going into the air. Not to mention help pay for this.

    5. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by MadMorf · · Score: 1

      Then only way you can take it completely out of the carbon cycle is to blast it into space on a rocket.

      I say cheap diamonds is the best way to go...

      Put the whole "blood diamond" thing to rest for good...

    6. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by admactanium · · Score: 1

      You've still got the energy cost of disposing of the CO2, by burying it or whatever. It has to be taken out of the carbon cycle completely.

      This technology was showcased on Discovery Earth channel last week on a show called "Project Earth." Alongside the carbon "scrubber" they were exploring ways to deal with the carbon that is removed from the atmosphere. They found a couple interesting solutions to the problem.

      One was to freeze it and form them into torpedos which could be dropped to the ocean floor. The pressure at that depth keeps the carbon in solid form and it's not re-released. So the footprint of disposal is relatively small.

      The other method they discovered from an offshore natural gas rig in Europe. They engineered the rig to use the excess energy and pump the waste gases back down into the Earth. I forget all of the details from the show but evidently this was a very efficient way to dispose of the carbon despite the large upfront cost of drilling an extremely deep hole.

    7. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by didroe84 · · Score: 1

      And that electricity could be effectively free. There are going to be low points in the useage of electricity where the power companies are generating power that isn't being used. The power company could switch on everyones scrubbers in these periods automatically. You would need more scrubbers to account for them not being on 24/7 though.

    8. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has to be taken out of the carbon cycle completely.

      Why on Earth would we want that? All that CO2 comes from existing carbon deposits and it didn't meddle with the atmosphere until we haven't start, most recently, artificially speeding up a part of the cycle. Creating stable deposits of pure carbon or carbon-based solid or liquid chemical compounds, somewhere on our planet where there is not enough oxygen to generate CO2, is good enough.

    9. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're defining the carbon cycle that broadly, then we don't care about removing carbon from the carbon cycle - we just want it to stay in the bits of the cycle where it doesn't contribute to the greenhouse effect.

      Which returns us to the grandparent's point - that we need to expend additional energy to trap the carbon dioxide somewhere.

    10. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by TempeTerra · · Score: 1

      Am I missing something here? How do you plan to use the carbon to generate electricity? My poor understanding of organic chemistry tells me that you get energy from hydrocarbons by breaking those tasty C-H bonds which leaves the cruddy CO_2 that's causing the problem. Sure, biofuels work like you suggest but they've already turned the C back into hydrocarbons by storing energy from elsewhere such as photosynthesis.

      --
      .evom ton seod gis eht
    11. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't CARBON and I'm sick and tired of that shortcut in the media. The problem is CO2 -- Carbon Dioxide, its a gas, not a solid.

      Carbon on its own doesn't cause any problems for global warming at all. Coal in the ground isn't causing global warming, the tree in your back yard isn't either, unless you burn either of them.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    12. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by sasha328 · · Score: 1

      Assuming that 1 tonne = 1000kg, this machine requires approximately 1 kilowatt hour of electricity to remove 10kg of Carbon Dioxide from the atmosphere. How efficient is this?

      From http://www.glumac.com/section.asp?catid=140&subid=152&pageid=564

      "For home energy use, carbon dioxide emissions vary widely from state-to-state and from day-to-day. The national average is about 1.3 pounds of carbon dioxide for every kilowatt-hour of electricity used in your home."

      Not bad. If it really works, you can redirect 10 to 15% of your electricity to achieve Carbon neutrality.

      I work for the market leader in air handling technologies for power stations and such, and recently we were talking about this problem. We obviously want to grow as a company, and the CEO was explaining this technology to us and how we'll hopefully be involved.
      The cost is prohibitive (unless the consumer is willing to pay).
      It is estimated that 20% of a coal fired power station will need to be used to clean it's CO2. This is not an insignificant amount. It also means that we will need to build some more power stations than is needed by consumet demand just to power these devices.
      Until politicians and the public accept that cleaning up the atmosphere is not going to be cheap or free, then you will not see these devices anywhere.

    13. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've got step 2!!!

      1. Pull carbon out of atmosphere
      2. Store carbon in it's crystalline form
      3. Sell diamonds (profit)

    14. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Actually, if we could decrease the cost of artificial diamonds, it would be a good thing for manufacturing. If I remember, diamond makes a very good solid lubricant. We could design machines with longer life, lower maintenance, and slightly more efficient.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    15. Re:Reference point to CO2 emissions by shaitand · · Score: 1

      http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=PCo&q=convert+carbon+into+hydrocarbons&btnG=Search

      There are methods for combining the C and H again by introducing a catalyst. Since there is no shortage of H and this will provide us with C then there doesn't seem to be a problem here.

      The carbon doesn't provide the energy, the carbon provides the structure that the H readily combines with. It's also the thing we need to worry about removing from the air. There is no shortage of energy, there is a whole sea of it out there.

  11. Natural Gas Processing Plants? by TFGeditor · · Score: 1

    I have always found it curious all the attention to coal-powered generating plants re: CO2, but nobody ever mentions the fact that natural gas processing plants extract--and release directly into the atmosphere--tons of CO2 every year.

    --
    Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
    1. Re:Natural Gas Processing Plants? by zippthorne · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Probably because that gas was coming out anyway, as the wells are tapped for the oil in them. The only thing the natural gas plants do is reduce the overall need for the oil (by taking up some of the load) and convert greenhouse gases into weaker greenhouse gases.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:Natural Gas Processing Plants? by rukcus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Energy generation can't be measured in total emissions, but rather by emissions per unit energy produced.

      Coal: 1160 g of CO2/kWh
      Gas: 400 g of CO2/kWh
      PV Solar: 120 g of CO2/kWh (manufacturing)
      Nuclear: 55 g of CO2/kWh
      Biomass: -4 kg of CO2/kWh

      Of course, nuclear has its own special disposal requirements, but it is less polluting in terms of green house gases.

      Source: Wiertzstraat, Wise, Coming Clean: How Clean Is Nuclear Energy? Stichting GroenLinks in EU; Brussels, Belgium. Oct 2000.

    3. Re:Natural Gas Processing Plants? by Viol8 · · Score: 2, Informative

      When you burn gas you get less CO2 for the same energy output than you do from coal because part of the reaction is reacting the hydrogen in the gas with oxygen which produces water so gas plants arn't quite so bad for the enviroment.

      CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H20

      Coal however is almost 100% carbon (apart from some minor impurities).

    4. Re:Natural Gas Processing Plants? by Dragar · · Score: 1

      This is true, however:

      1. The reservoir CO2 that ends up in natural gas processing plants is not in sufficiently high concentrations to make gas anywhere near as bad a carbon emitter as coal once combusted

      2. New build gas developments, in my part of the world at least (australia), are required to capture and sequester the CO2. I work in the offshore gas industry and we have to design for pumping it back into the reservoir, we can't just emit it anymore.

      3. In terms of flaring of gas for oil production where doing something with the gas isn't economical, this practise also has its days numbered, for new facilities especially. Fields with substantial gas pretty much have to do something with it now, which means either piping to shore or liquefying offshore (not done yet, but its getting close)for collection by LNG tanker.

    5. Re:Natural Gas Processing Plants? by phillous · · Score: 1

      You'll want to do a bit more research into biomass before declaring it a winner... they're cutting down massive areas of natural rainforest to frow biomass "crops". CO2 levels may be good, but overall enviromental impact is BAD BAD BAD.

    6. Re:Natural Gas Processing Plants? by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Nuclear: 55 g of CO2/kWh

      ???

      Is that also a manufacturing cost or something? (honest curiosity)

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    7. Re:Natural Gas Processing Plants? by rukcus · · Score: 1

      Most likely it is the emissions from mining and refining operations. The actual reactor doesn't involve CO2, but I suspect that the emissions are accounted for from the tractors, diggers, refiners, and perhaps a small part for dissolved CO2 in water that gets released from heat exchangers. I only have a second hand listing from another source all together attributed to the book listed.

  12. interesting, but... by Brain+Damaged+Bogan · · Score: 1

    "requiring less than 100 kilowatt-hours of electricity per tonne of carbon dioxide" how many kilowatt hours does it take to produce a tonne of carbon dioxide using a gas / oil / coal powerplant?

    --
    -- Sex is the antonym of pringles. Once you pop it's time to stop.
    1. Re:interesting, but... by Brain+Damaged+Bogan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      shoulda googled before i posted:

      *snip*
      According to these studies, a new coal fired power plant will release between 1.96 (PLC) and 2.09 (DOE) pounds of CO2 per kilowatt hour of operation. For our report, we assume that any given coal-fired power plant will emit 2 pounds of CO2 per kilowatt hour.
      A power plant with a one megawatt (1,000 kilowatts) name plate capacity will produce the equivalent of 8,760,000 kilowatt hours annually at full operation -- that is, 8,760 hours multiplied by 1,000. At this rate, such a plant would emit an estimated 17,520,000 pounds, which is the equivalent of 8,760 short tons or 7,947 metric tons of CO2.
      *snip*
      from : http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:3Lo6hNKC2UwJ:www.seen.org/pages/db/method.shtml+co2+per+kilowatt+hour+coal+powerplant&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au

      so these devices will suck up about 1.5 months worth of C02 emissions at a miniscule amount of the energy. awesome.

      --
      -- Sex is the antonym of pringles. Once you pop it's time to stop.
    2. Re:interesting, but... by pradeepsekar · · Score: 1

      2 pound per KWH emitted implies 200 pounds (91Kg) emitted for the 100KWH, which cleans up 1 Ton from the atmosphere. A 9% cost to just remove the CO2 produced is 'decent', but definitely not awesome. I'm not clear where the CO2 finally goes - is it stored as a carbonate, or what. We really need to see where it ends up if we are to compare it with other 'solutions' proposed.

  13. Probably Not, IMHO by Gazzonyx · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You mean, do the laws of thermodynamics still apply?
    Yes.
    It will always take more energy to convert from one form of energy to another; the trick is using 'free' energy with minimal impact for a catalyst and accepting that the return is always marginalized. We also get diminishing returns on our attempts to make more efficient systems... the energy to create the systems climbs as the returns on said systems becomes less. Just gotta' accept that part of the game, 'cause you can't not play.

    --

    If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.

  14. Gimme numbers, kid! by Gazzonyx · · Score: 1

    Quantify 'cheaper' ;)

    --

    If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.

  15. I have seen a number of proposals before... by Chrisq · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have seen a number of proposals before that make the very basic mistake of using a material to absorb C02 that gives of C02 during manufacturer. Until I see details I will take this with a pinch of salt.

    If I had a penny every time someone says "just absorb it all with lime" I would be able to afford a chocolate bar. Besides which, looking at emissions per kw/h you had better not use coal or oil to power this, and even with Gas produced electricity the benefit is marginal.

    1. Re:I have seen a number of proposals before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You bring up a very good point. And I want to know how much energy it takes to re-process the absorbing material and at that point, where does the CO2 go? If they do not re-use the absorbing material, then what expense is the material to the environment? What economic expense does the material suddenly become? Does Lime suddenly have value like Gold or Platinum when it goes into high demand?

      Lets see, they kick out CO2 processing and preparing the scrubbing material. Scrubbing material is used in CO2 removal machine. Scrubbing material is used up. Scrubbing material gets cleaned?/or packed for long term storage. More material is needed or if it is cleaned, the CO2 needs to be dealt with again. If the material is cleaned, how much energy does that process take and where does the CO2 go?

      In a very long cycle, this machine represents a very small and incomplete portion. I don't think they accounted for CO2 to produce the PVC chimney, the motor, the fan, scrubbing material, transport of these materials to site, etc... When all of these issues are also accounted for, then lets start talking about the machines efficiency.

    2. Re:I have seen a number of proposals before... by PathologicalLurker · · Score: 1

      Agreed! I saw a review of this technology on the discovery channel and it was the biggest piece of junk science I've seen. No estimate for carbon efficiency can be made until you've incorporated enough feed processes to consider it a closed system.

      He's using NaOH to sequester the carbon dioxide. Where does sodium hydroxide come from? Much of it is obtained as a byproduct of the manufacture of chlorine. Great, right? Nope. We already use this NaOH. Most of the additional sodium hydroxide used today comes from NaC03 which comes from either mined trona or the solvay process after which the carbon dioxide is driven off with heat and then the Na2O is added to water.

      Basically, to put this into production we'd have to generate more NaOH. To do so, as much CO2 would have to be put into the atmosphere (not even including additional operating/heating requirements) as could be sequestered from the air.

  16. Canadian Scientists eh? by GlobalColding · · Score: 1

    Don't mind me, I am just having a huge Bob & Doug McKenzie flashback... Too much Molsons, Strange Brew, eh! Canadian Scientists heh heh, damn.

    1. Re:Canadian Scientists eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about methane then? Hosers.

      (note to non-Canadian folk: you don't use "eh?" when it is semantically relevant, like after the question shown above, eh?)

  17. Nevermind CO2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While CO2 is an important greenhouse gas, methane is going to be a bigger problem now the arctic warming is releasing it into the atmosphere.
    Are there efficient ways of removing methane?

    1. Re:Nevermind CO2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are there efficient ways of removing methane?

      Farting!!

  18. terrible idea by timmarhy · · Score: 1

    yes, lets fuck around with the atmosphere a little more.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    1. Re:terrible idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > yes, lets fuck around with the atmosphere a little more.

      "OK, let's bring in some snakes to fix the problem we caused with the frogs."

    2. Re:terrible idea by dcollins117 · · Score: 1

      My first thought was "Great. Now we can pollute all we want. The Canadians will clean it up."

      Now I suspect ten years after these are widely deployed we'll be reading sensationalist headlines declaring that we irresponsible humans are causing the climate to cool due to greenhouse gas reductions. "Glaciers are growing bigger in the polar regions. Are we headed for another Ice Age?"

    3. Re:terrible idea by DarenN · · Score: 1

      "And when the ice-age comes, all the CO2 emitting creatures will die!"

      --
      Rational thought is the only true freedom
  19. Cheaper way. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I still think creating a time travel device, going back and assassinating Al Gore and IPCC key members will end this global warming problem.

    While we're at it, I hope you won't mind if we put two leads in Col. Korn's head. Later, I'd like to murder Havermeyer and Appleby. After we do those two, we can kill McWatt.

    1. Re:Cheaper way. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the current headlines show us the downside of "everyone gets a share", even if you have cornered the market on Egyptian cotton.

  20. If they want to remove CO2... by Mashiki · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Goto where the farmers are burning down the rain forests, teach/give/train them how to plant high yield crops and stop them from clear cutting/burning them down. And shock...you'll get somewhere.

    Sometimes the most obvious solutions are sitting in front of their faces.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
    1. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Teaching people would work as a solution?

      You must be new here... and I mean the planet.

    2. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      What happens to those crops once they're destroyed? How do the crops get to wherever the market for them is?

    3. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 1

      burning down the rain forests

      C02 from plants is not that big a deal compared to C02 that's been trapped for years & now being released as we dig up & burn coal & oil.

      --
      There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
    4. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to Wikipedia:

      Tropical rainforests have been called the "Earth's lungs," although it is now known that rainforests contribute little net oxygen additions to the atmosphere through photosynthesis.

    5. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by methuselah · · Score: 1

      are you really that clueless? plants breath co2. so um yeah I guess you are right. as for burning down the rain forests I will not even go into how insignificant the co2 output from the fires are in comparison to the ecological disaster they are creating by doing it. did you have a point?

    6. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by thepotoo · · Score: 1
      Well, yes and no. It would be wonderful to stop slash and burning the tropical rain forests, for a million reasons, but even stopping the depletion of this major carbon sink would only delay the inevitable global warming.

      What we need is to not only stop cutting down trees and start practicing sustainable agriculture, but to also remove excess CO2 from the atmosphere. We could achieve all these goals without sacrificing a single bit of economic growth and without any real lifestyle change if we just used nukes as a transition fuel to get us on to solar, wind and in certain sectors gasification, but for some reason Jimmy Carter agreed with a bunch or moronic hippies that breeder reactors were scary and evil. /rant

      --
      Obligatory Soundbite Catchphrase
    7. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes the most obvious solutions are sitting in front of their faces.

      Save canadian rainforests instead I say!

    8. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      As a Brazilian citizen I can say:
      1. Yes, we are burning florests, that is very bad (altough, 5 times less bad than the US burning fossil fuels).
      2. We don't need your crop technologies, thank you. We have ours, and they seem to be working quite well.

    9. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by bugg · · Score: 1

      You realize the reason for the human devastation of the rainforest is because people are living in poverty, and capitalizing on the natural resource that's there is the way out of it?

      Gotta fix that problem first, or else you'll get nowhere asking people to do things to not survive.

      --
      -bugg
    10. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      But that's hard. And scary. Why not just build a machine at home, so we can be morally superior and not have to deal with those smelly, impoverished people. No need to be reminded of our part in causing pollution due to a global economy, and our desire for cheap food and goods from countries which lack the environmental standards we have. Build these machines, and we get the best of both worlds: Cheap bananas, and the feeling that we're better than the countries that do massive ecological damage in order to provide us with those cheap bananas.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    11. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by Hao+Wu · · Score: 2, Funny

      Go to Neptune, sample the core, and return it to the earth.
       
      I typed it out easily enough, so it must be that simple!

      --
      I suggest you read Slashdot
    12. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      Do you have any idea how much energy would be required to implement your solution?

      Depending on the amount of meetings held, the remoteness of those meetings from the houses the meeting members live in and the type of transportation and buildings used to get to and hold said meetings....

      sometimes you're better off just leaving well enough alone.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    13. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How well do your crop technologies work once you have run out of rainforests to slash and burn?

    14. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by e2ka · · Score: 1

      Goto where the farmers are burning down the rain forests

      I did that, but I was in the middle of the carbon cycle, and now I have no idea where I am in this program's execution!

    15. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      You're being myopic.

      Dirt farmers don't burn down forests, while they're trying to do two things get food, make a profit, and when you're clear cutting a forest without a sustained environment behind it you're going to get a desert. Look at: Middle East, and Africa. Now it's a fine idea to think you don't, even believe you don't. If you believe burning fossil fuels is five times as bad as burning down forests, now you're just being stupid.

      However, and this is the fun part. See we still cut down our forests(good), but we repeatedly plant new ones(better)! And we now have more green forest space then when we settled this chunk of land 400 years ago. Unfortunately environmentalists might tell you otherwise, but the like their doom and gloom.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    16. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Actually yes I do, however I gave a simplistic post at the start. The first problem is generally food in most cases however. If people are hungry, they do what they need to live. The second is generally a way to live. But yield farming does do wonders in most cases, especially once you go back and start working on other things.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    17. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Sustainable agriculture isn't a problem here in the west, we're part of that super small percentage of the worlds population that can turn down food remember? Neither are forest issues, especially here in North America. We plant more then we cut down in the harvesting for all lumber based products.

      The problem lies at other nations that don't do that, and currently have rampant slash & burn policies without replacement cycles. Or continue to use low yield farming solutions which require over fertilization(farm and burn).

      I do however agree on the nukes, breeder reactors all that fun stuff however. Carter easily tied the US' hands behind it's back and gave a happy screw you to the entire country. His legacy lives on, and anti-nuke nuts rally around it.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    18. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Wait you're worried about meetings, remoteness and various types of transportation when you could possibly change their world, get dirt farmers to have an actual living and they'll actually have an over abundance of food; And do something good all the way around.

      Now, here's something to chew on. I'm a free market conservative, I'm also a humanitarian. You figure out what's wrong with your reply and get back to me.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    19. Re:If they want to remove CO2... by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 1

      Yes, from an ecological point of view, rain forest burning is a disaster. Congratulations, you manage to see the blindingly obvious.

      However, the context here is a story about atmospheric CO2 & burning or planting trees has absolutely fuck-all effect on that.

      --
      There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
  21. A good laugh by Bazar · · Score: 1

    A company could, in principle, contract with an oilsands plant near Fort McMurray to remove CO2 from the air and could build its air capture plant wherever itâ(TM)s cheapest -- China

    I had to laugh at that, for once its not because of cheap labour that the jobs are being outsourced.

    It does raise the issue however, china is already let off the Kyoto treaty as its considered a developing nation, now are they are going to reap economical benefits of other developed nations by outsourcing their CO2.

    Seems like a double win for China for all the wrong reasons.

    --
    To avoid criticism; Say nothing, Do nothing, Be nothing.
  22. Space missions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    expedient and efficient removal of CO2 at atmospheric concentrations could have profound implications in space.

    Currently, CO2 is scrubbed using lithium salts, which are not only heavy, but also caustic, and have a limited service life before requiring replacement.

    A purely electric, and solid state device capable of continuous operation would allow for superior space vehicle designs which could theoretically operate much longer than currently available ones.

    If they discover a way to electronically reduce the carbon dioxide into elemental carbon, things will be even more interesting.

    1. Re:Space missions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are aware of the fact that combining carbon with oxygen releases energy and the fact that separating them costs energy correct? If both processes are less than 100% efficient your perpetual motion machine will cease to function.

    2. Re:Space missions by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      Who said anything about purpetual motion? Space vehicles have power generation systems on board. This kind of system would be for something like that hypothetical mission to mars, which would be 6 months in duration, and quite distant from resupply for lithium salts, and oxygen tanks. Also, such a vehicle will likely sport a nuclear reactor of one sort or the other. The carbon dioxide produced inside a space vehicle is created by HUMAN OCCUPANTS. Try to lay off the sarcasm from now on, K?

    3. Re:Space missions by mpe · · Score: 1

      Currently, CO2 is scrubbed using lithium salts, which are not only heavy, but also caustic, and have a limited service life before requiring replacement.

      Lithium hydroxide is the lightest possible alkali metal hydroxide. With the heaviest part being the oxygen...

      If they discover a way to electronically reduce the carbon dioxide into elemental carbon, things will be even more interesting.

      What do you then do with the resulting carbon?

    4. Re:Space missions by theapeman · · Score: 1

      Burn it to get energy? Bury it in disused coal mines?

    5. Re:Space missions by evanbd · · Score: 1

      What's more, it sounds like this device is low power and reasonably sized -- both highly important in a space setting.

      There's no need to look for a way to convert the CO2 to something else. In any near-term application, it would be fine to just vent the CO2 (and import fresh O2 and food etc). In any situation where you want to recycle the carbon, you're probably feeding the CO2 to plants. Failing that, it's not all that hard to turn CO2 into methane or longer chain organics, which are likely more useful than elemental carbon anyway -- though obviously there are energy requirements.

      The interesting question is how well this scales down.

    6. Re:Space missions by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      It isnt that lithium hydroxide is terribly heavy in and of itself, but that there needs to be a rather large amount of it to filter carbon dioxide from cabin atmosphere for prolonged periods, such as on the ISS, or on a mission to Mars. This is where the "weight" comes in. 500+kg of lithium hydroxide is still 500+kg. replacing it with a solid state system with a much longer service life reduces the need propellent to get the vehicle into space, and once there, reduces the requirement for resupply.

    7. Re:Space missions by doktorjayd · · Score: 1

      create adam?

    8. Re:Space missions by bugg · · Score: 1

      I guarantee you there's no net energy gain from doing 4*CO2 -> 4*O2 + C4 and then C4 + 4*O2 -> 4*CO2, so burning it to get energy would be silly, especially because the obnoxiousness of having to deal with a gas. If you want battery technology, there are better options.

      --
      -bugg
    9. Re:Space missions by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      It is not for power generation, smartypants. It is for atmospheric regeneration on board a space craft. A net expenditure of energy is only sane and rational according to the second law of thermodynamics. Even "natural" atmospheric regeneration on the earth comes at a net loss of energy, which happens to be resupplied by sunlight. Why does everyone think this particular post is about electrical power? They don't burn fossil fuels in space.

  23. Storage Issue by 3HackBug77 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But the big question is where is all this CO2 going to go. We have the ability to store CO2, but eventually we are going to run out of room to store it all, and even worse, if it leaks you've screwed over the area around the storage. I can't imagine that storage containers would last forever too, eventually, we would have to do something with it all.

    1. Re:Storage Issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Simple enough. Just bubble it up through the ocean.

      The ocean is a natural "Carbon sink"-- EG, the minerals (salts) dissolved in the ocean form carbonate mineral complexes when they are exposed to dissolved CO2. This is how all that loverly limestone forms on the bottom of the ocean.

      Places with access to "very very deep" ocean trenches are the ideal locations for CO2 sequestering facilities, since the CO2 can be pumped underneath several kilometers of ocean water, and pushed through a bubbler. Most of the CO2 will become dissolved into the ocean water, and precipitate out as limestone and related minerals, and lie harmlessly on the ocean floor.

    2. Re:Storage Issue by logicnazi · · Score: 1

      Where do you think it came from? It was buried deep in the earth in the form of fossil fuels.

      Carbon sequestration schemes usually involve injecting the C02 back into the same sorts of geological structures where, under substantial pressure, it is rendered back into a liquid and contained by the geological formations.

      It may seem counter intuitive but so far studies have shown promising results for long term containment.

      --

      If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    3. Re:Storage Issue by logicnazi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hmm, but while you are at it you will hugely acidify the ocean. The chemicals that react with the CO2 only enter the ocean so fast.

      The deep ocean trenches may be deep enough to simply liquefy the CO2 so it simply pools on the bottom. This may be more promising. Still not as good as geological storage, however.

      --

      If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    4. Re:Storage Issue by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      The deep ocean trenches may be deep enough to simply liquefy the CO2 so it simply pools on the bottom.

            If I remember my basic chemistry, liquid CO2 is pretty damned hard to come across. Exactly at what temperature and pressure are you planning to store this stuff again?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    5. Re:Storage Issue by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2, Informative

      Apart from the surface, the sea has a pretty stable 2 degree (Celsius) temperature, thanks to the inversion point of water. (Ice floats, but ice always forms on the surface -- it doesn't form at the bottom then float up. Water below 2 degrees is less dense than water above 2, so there's this funky convection thing going on that stops the bottom of the sea freezing.

      As for pressure, we're talking about very very deep down in the sea, where a human would be pancakified very very quickly.

      In these conditions, CO2 will liquify, if the volume is too great for the surrounding water to dissolve.

      HAL.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    6. Re:Storage Issue by raceface · · Score: 1

      We could put it back where it came from, in abandoned oil wells, and salt caverns. We already do this with natural gas storage. Se here for details http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/natural_gas/analysis_publications/storagebasics/storagebasics.html

      --
      Ride recklessly only when safe to do so.
  24. Caution by bytesex · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I really, really wouldn't do all this 'CO2 from the air removing' until we're 100% sure that 1) it causes global warming, 2) global warming is bad and 3) our natural mechanisms are somehow inadequate at the moment. And even then, I mean, sure - put a filter on that chimney, but don't start removing it from places where trees (or plankton) might be hungry for it, making our ecosystem even more unstable.

    --
    Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    1. Re:Caution by Viol8 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1) CO2 does cause heating of the atmosphere. Thats basic physics and is not up for debate.

      2) Global warming might not be bad in the long term scheme of things but its bad for the enviroment (and ourselves) as we know it.

      3) Given that current natural mechanisms can't cope with the amount of CO2 we're chucking into the atmosphere then its pretty obvious they're inadequate to the needs of clearing up our mess.

    2. Re:Caution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By that logic we really really shouldn't be putting any CO2 in the atmosphere in the first place.

      Now that we have...

    3. Re:Caution by grodzix · · Score: 1

      COÂ is greenhouse gas, true, so is water vapor and ozone. You don't know whether it will be bad for environment or us. Maybe first it will be terrible but after some period it will be much better than now? Or maybe it's not gonna change things as much as some think it will? We don't know. How do you know whether nature can't cope with COÂ? The more COÂ there is, the more plants can grow (pretty obvious) which in turn can handle more COÂ. Or maybe higher percentage of COÂ is not that bad for the nature. After all, nature is known to be able to adopt to new environments.

      --
      My Windows is NOT slow, it's special!
    4. Re:Caution by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      "You don't know whether it will be bad for environment or us"

      Any change that leads to higher temperatures in areas that are already subject to drought is bad news for agriculture and will cause more disease.

      "the more plants can grow (pretty obvious) "

      Actually it might seem obvious but its not true. Experiments have been done and a lot of plants don't grow any quicker in higher CO2 , however they do grow slower if the temperature exceeds certain levels.

    5. Re:Caution by bytesex · · Score: 1

      1) No CO2 causes the heating up of a closed box in a laboratory. It is also a prerequisite for life and gets produced by godknowswhat in our biotope.

      2) We don't know that either. It's likely to *change* things, which might be bad.

      3) Yes, but is it because we're pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, or because we're removing too many trees ? Because I would surely like to fix things at the source.

      As I said, I'm all for putting a filter on the chimney, but I'm not so sure it's a good thing to have near a forest.

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    6. Re:Caution by bytesex · · Score: 1

      But can we really tell inhowfar the damage done by us, isn't already coped with in one way or another ? For example; could the excess CO2 not be responsible for extra resilience in trees, who would otherwise die because of all the sulphur and nitrous molecules we're *also* producing ? Mind you, I'm not saying 'smoke that chimney !' - I'm saying 'be careful how you correct' - we don't want to be playing Australian ecosystem with our atmosphere, do we ?

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    7. Re:Caution by limaxray · · Score: 1

      Any change that leads to higher temperatures in areas that are already subject to ice and snow is good news for agriculture and will cause less disease.

      There, fixed it for ya. Seems to be a trade off to me.

    8. Re:Caution by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      "1) No CO2 causes the heating up of a closed box in a laboratory."

      CO2 strongly absorbs infra red light becauses its raman active at these frequencies. It converts its energy into vibrational and kinetic energy and transmits this energy to the other gases in the atmosphere - ie it heats them up. This is regardless of whether its in a box or not.

      "2) We don't know that either. It's likely to *change* things, which might be bad."

      No we don't know for certain, you want to take the chance?

      "3) Yes, but is it because we're pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, or because we're removing too many trees ? "

      Probably both, but that doesn't change the fact that the CO2 is increasing and nature cannot absorb it all.
      "

    9. Re:Caution by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      Yeah , because all we have to do its move a billion people from africa to siberia and northern canada. No problem.

    10. Re:Caution by limaxray · · Score: 1

      That is actually far less ridiculous than having us humans mess with the climate even more

    11. Re:Caution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just let the niggers die. They weren't contributing to any sort of advancement anyway.

    12. Re:Caution by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      Why do we have to be 100% sure? How about 95% sure? The point of removing CO2 is as an insurance policy against hazards which are likely but uncertain.

      Anyway, the greenhouse effect is known to exist — without it, the planet would be frozen solid. The spectral absorption properties of CO2 are basic physics. CO2-induced warming can account for the observed warming, and other natural sources have failed to do so. Paleoclimate evidence shows examples in the past of large carbon excursions associated with dramatic warming. It's just not that questionable a theory anymore.

      As for warming being bad, almost any climate change is "bad" if it happens comparatively rapidly, since nations and industrials are adapted to operating in a particular climate. 3+ degrees C of warming in a century is not slow. 3 C of cooling would be bad too. We would prefer a relatively stable climate. And with warming, there are serious abrupt changes that can be triggered if there's too much of it (ice sheet disintegration, large scale reorganization of ocean circulation, carbon cycle feedbacks, etc.), and we're not sure where the trigger is. Since we don't appear to have triggered those responses yet, it seems prudent not to move the climate too far, too fast from what we know is safe.

      As for natural mechanisms to sink CO2, they're already failing to remove half of the emissions we generate, and that's almost certain to get worse as our emissions continue to grow rapidly. There are some feedbacks which can help (e.g., CO2 fertilization of plants), but there are also feedbacks that hurt (e.g., increased respiration from organic decay), and they are likely to be overwhelmed by the sheer quantities we're on our way to emitting.

    13. Re:Caution by grodzix · · Score: 1

      Yea... But you noticed that MOST of the people haven't contributed to any sort of advancement (at least not directly). What you gonna do about that, let everyone die?

      --
      My Windows is NOT slow, it's special!
    14. Re:Caution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they can't keep themselves alive I don't see why I should be bothered. I'd expect the same treatment.

    15. Re:Caution by grodzix · · Score: 1

      Fair Enough

      --
      My Windows is NOT slow, it's special!
    16. Re:Caution by TempeTerra · · Score: 1

      No offence, but who the hell modded you up? That's the stupidest comment I've seen at +4 for... God knows how long.

      For one thing, deliberately removing SOME CO_2 from the atmosphere would be a SMALL step towards balancing our own actions - i.e. digging up sequestered hydrocarbons and throwing them into the atmosphere. It would be an amazing event if we had the technology to balance our own actions, let alone remove further carbon from the active cycle.

      1) CO_2 is a greenhouse gas, like many other gases but this is the one that we're causing problems with. Attempting to maintain the status quo is infinitely smarter than changing the composition of the atmosphere then waiting to see what happens which you seem to advocate.

      2) Global climate change might result in more productive farm land if we're lucky but regardless it's much more certain to change the distribution of the productive land which would certainly result in massive changes in population distribution. Consider what would happen if Canada became more productive but the USA dried up like north africa, for instance, or a similar situation with China/Siberia.

      3) Well, maybe it will all turn out OK if we cross our fingers and hope real hard, but have you ever heard a credible source advocate that? It's a stupid bet however you look at it, except maybe from the angle of short term profits at the exclusion of all else.

      And perhaps the poor plants will starve... um, yeah. Because we're somehow going to magically remove THAT MUCH CO_2 from the atmosphere. As I said at the start of my comment, it would take a heroic effort to balance our own actions, let alone go further. And why would we want to anyway?

      So in summary, what were the mods smoking and where can I get some?

      --
      .evom ton seod gis eht
    17. Re:Caution by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      You want to persuade the russians and canadians?

    18. Re:Caution by bytesex · · Score: 1

      I'm not taking any chances, but I'm not taking any chances with human-forced change in the other direction either. Chances are that nature already adapted in some way to our CO2 output. Are you willing to take *that* chance ?

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    19. Re:Caution by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      "Chances are that nature already adapted in some way to our CO2 output."

      Yeah right, you still to your hand waving guesswork, I'll go by the scientific evidence.

  25. And what do we do with the CO2? by scottme · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This extraction of CO2 from the atmosphere is all well and good, but are there any reliable and cost-effective ways to store it or dispose of it?

    1. Re:And what do we do with the CO2? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah, we can store all of it we want on mars, or the moon.

    2. Re:And what do we do with the CO2? by ovideon · · Score: 1

      This extraction of CO2 from the atmosphere is all well and good, but are there any reliable and cost-effective ways to store it or dispose of it?

      I can think of several.

    3. Re:And what do we do with the CO2? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Norway's Sleipner gas field is the oldest plant that stores CO2 on an industrial scale. It current does CCS storage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_capture_and_storage

    4. Re:And what do we do with the CO2? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      those scientists had a show on discovery channel the other night,
      and what they were testing for storage was dry ice torpedo
      (just a nose cone w/rod on which you stack circular chunks of dry ice),
      it gives off bubbles which push it down, and after it goes beyond a 100 feet,
      it stops sublimating (giving off bubbles)
      and buries itself on the ocean floor

    5. Re:And what do we do with the CO2? by Hao+Wu · · Score: 1

      How are we going to store and dispose of rocks in the earth? They take up space, displace wildlife, and are too heavy to move.

      The price of storing and disposal of billions of tons of rock is going to be trillions... a cost that will surely be passed on to our children.

      --
      I suggest you read Slashdot
    6. Re:And what do we do with the CO2? by trongey · · Score: 1

      Make more Diet Mt Dew. You can never make too much of that.

      --
      You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
  26. Scrubbing is one thing ... by Per+Abich · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... but what will they do with the CO2 once they have it? Storing it under ground would solve the problem for us (maybe), but what of future generations. If they however would be able to "turbo grow" trees from it, or make some industrial breaking up of the molecule efficient, then I see some use in it.

    1. Re:Scrubbing is one thing ... by logicnazi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      First of all don't diss the benefits of pushing problems off to the future.

      I mean the only real problem of CO2 is the cost of energy. We want energy and produce CO2 by running an energy positive chemical reaction (burning). If energy were sufficiently cheap we could simply take the CO2 and transform it into some non-greenhouse form of carbon.

      Energy gets cheaper over time, the same amount of CO2 will be less of a problem for future generations with their superior technology and better infrastructure. Besides, it was underground to start with so long as it doesn't leak that seems like a fine place to leave it.

      --

      If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    2. Re:Scrubbing is one thing ... by rhakka · · Score: 1

      wow, simply assuming energy will infinitely decline in price... especially in light of the last few years... would seem to be a bit optimistic, wouldn't it?

    3. Re:Scrubbing is one thing ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Energy gets cheaper over time"?

      Erm... Is that actually a proven scientific established fact, or a quasi-religious belief in the pie in the sky?

    4. Re:Scrubbing is one thing ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it was underground in a slightly more compact form though...

    5. Re:Scrubbing is one thing ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if we start working on technology for this problem specifically we'll have that superior technology alot sooner with the more specialized research we're putting in now. instead of waiting till technology in general has advanced enough that we can put it together for this purpose.

    6. Re:Scrubbing is one thing ... by Rich0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It doesn't actually seem like an unreasonable assumption - over long timeframes.

      What was the cost of 1kWh of energy 10,000 years ago? 1000 years ago? 100 years ago?

      Sure, fossil fuels have gone up in cost in the last 50 years, but that is just a recent trend. There is no reason to think that the fusion power of 2050 won't be cheaper than the coal of 1900.

      It might also be more expensive, but technology in general has tended to make everything cheaper with time historically. This is just one more thing.

      And unless you start doing transmutation you still have carbon to dispose of somewhere.

      This sort of technology could be used to help clean up diffuse carbon emissions. Sure, smoke stacks are best cleaned up at the stack - but what about lawn mowers, volcanoes, and forest fires?

    7. Re:Scrubbing is one thing ... by rhakka · · Score: 1

      well sure, but the timeframe you're talking about could very easily outstrip the timeframe that makes the effects we're looking to mitigate become problems.

      for instance, use your arguement to address mercury, for example. someday, infinitely cheap energy may allow us to clean everything up to be non toxic.

      However, before then, we may all die of heavy metal poisoning if we don't clean something up with CURRENT technology.

      Your arguements makes no sense on timeframes that actually matter to us humans.

      and if you think fusion power is only 40 years away, well, I would definitely call that optimistic. we're still driving internal combustion engines, for criminey's sake.

    8. Re:Scrubbing is one thing ... by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Agreed - I didn't advance the original argument. However, if you can postpone a problem safely into the distant future it isn't necessarily a bad thing when the alternatives aren't good. Kind of like cryogenicially preserving bodies...

  27. Better idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    By not putting there in the first place?

    1. Re:Better idea by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      Oh the irony... Such a post coming from a person using the internet... I suppose your computer is powered by a bicycle?

  28. What use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What use is removing CO2 from the atmosfere?

    There is a reaction equilibrium of forming CO2 (by burning fuels, breathing, etc) and forming O2 by plants. We should restore that equilibrium, not plunder resources at one side. Because if you plunder resources at one side, you plunder the other side too. In effect, what you REALLY do with this is removing oxygen from the atmosfere.

    According to "The Science of Discworld", this was what made biosphere 2 fail. So we did the experiment, know how it ends, and now it is time to learn from it.

    1. Re:What use? by Per+Abich · · Score: 1

      So you are saying, we should just remove all oxygen from the athmosphere, and our CO2 problems solve itself?

    2. Re:What use? by Peaker · · Score: 1

      Not really. By digging oil out of the ground, we're moving a huge amount of Carbon up to the surface.

      By removing it from the air and storing it, we're merely restoring the situation that existed before oil was dug up.

  29. LImestone by Viol8 · · Score: 1

    All we need to do is persuade plankton to go on a binge.

    1. Re:LImestone by wierd_w · · Score: 2, Interesting

      we can do this by pumping the carbon dioxide down deep under the ocean surface into the deep, mineral rich water below. The bubbling action will not only dissolve a goodly portion of the CO2 into the ocean water, but will also bring those deep minerals to the surface, which would initiate a kelp and algae bloom. It could have neat fringe benefits in that it could be used to promote commercial fisheries.

    2. Re:LImestone by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      Yeah , but it would acidify the water (which is already happening to a small extent) and have who knows what knock on effects.

    3. Re:LImestone by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      Indeed, however, it already occurs (at rates that put industrial disposal to shame) naturally in deep sea vents where volcanic gasses containing not only carbon dioxide, but also sulfur dioxide (and friends.) Sulfur dioxide promotes the formation of sulfates, rather than carbonates, which greatly acidifies the water in comparison to CO2. I dont mean to bubble the stuff down at the surface, I mean bubble it down VERY VERY deep-- like methane hydrate deep. :D

    4. Re:LImestone by rufty_tufty · · Score: 1

      In that case, why extract the CO2 at all?
      Why not just bubble air through the deep ocean trences.
      Let the CO2 help the plankton and the 02 help the fishes.

      --
      "The weirdest thing about a mind, is that every answer that you find, is the basis of a brand new cliche" -
  30. Many by mqduck · · Score: 1

    I suppose I'm being a troll, but how many of these CO2 removing thingies have to be invented till they exist somewhere outside Slashdot?

    --
    Property is theft.
  31. Use them on Mars! by Pikoro · · Score: 1

    I say, let the terraforming begin!

    Place these things all over the martian surface and make em solar powered!

    --
    "Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
  32. Won't CO2 scrubbers kill plant life? by Tyrannicalposter · · Score: 1

    Won't CO2 scrubbers kill plant life by sucking up all the CO2 in the area? Or at least enough to harm the plants. Sure doesn't sound very eco friendly.

    1. Re:Won't CO2 scrubbers kill plant life? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well CO2 is building up in our atmosphere, so obviously the plant life can't keep up with the amount we are producing. These could be a way of balancing the system so our CO2 output is neutralized in a combination of plant life and machinery. What could happen is that these could be used in densely populated areas with little plant life, to affect the surroundings by as little as possible. You do bring up a good point though, in that it would be intresting to see if these suck up C02 too quickly for the surrounding plant life to get their fix, or whether it works slow enough that it reduces the excess C02.

    2. Re:Won't CO2 scrubbers kill plant life? by logicnazi · · Score: 1

      No, diffusion is WAY too efficient for this to be a really serious problem.

      --

      If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

  33. trees by martin · · Score: 1

    or stop de-forestation and actually plant more of the things ??

  34. But what do they do with it afterwards by squoozer · · Score: 1

    Removing the CO2 is hard but the hardest problem is what to do with it once you have removed it. I haven't RTFA yet but I'm guessing it's going to be the old pump it under the ground solution. That's great but if you want to store a lot of CO2 that way you need to compress it and that is going to use a lot of energy.

    Personally I think a better idea would be to make charcoal and bury that. Genetically engineer a very fast growing tree, turn it into charcoal after a few years and spread it on fields or just dump it in old mines.

    --
    I used to have a better sig but it broke.
    1. Re:But what do they do with it afterwards by Dragar · · Score: 1

      Its worth RTFA, I have the impression they scrub it out as a solid, though its not clear. If so that could very much simplify the recompression issue, which is capital and energy expensive. Also, high pressure storage makes containment harder, if its in solid form it should be very simple to bury safely.

    2. Re:But what do they do with it afterwards by squoozer · · Score: 1

      I RTFA after posting but, as you point out, it's not clear exactly how they capture the CO2. I'm guessing it's the old classic lime to lime stone reaction. That could be done easily in one square meter to capture that much CO2 over a year but the waste would weigh far more than twenty tonnes. Further more it wouldn't address where the lime comes from and the fact that whoever was running the scrubber would need to empty it of lime stone on a regular basis.

      The only way I could see this really working is if they find some way to react the CO2 to form some kind of polymer, I wish them luck with that though.

      --
      I used to have a better sig but it broke.
  35. Do androids dream of electric sheep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And if an electric tree falls in the forest, and there is no-one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

  36. also by someone1234 · · Score: 1

    These 'tower units' are a convenient upgrade of the now obsoleted trees. We gotta cut those old things out and replace them with these high-tech towers.

    --
    Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
  37. Magic? by yogibaer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They may remove CO2 from the air, but where does it end up and in what form? Very, very strange. If they do not beam the stuff to Melmac (then 100kwh per ton would be REALLY efficient) it has to be transformed into something else which then has to be stored somewhere. That is a very strange article which explains only one side of the equation. Maybe I did not read it right, maybe it is some kind of magic.

    1. Re:Magic? by jamesh · · Score: 1

      They may remove CO2 from the air, but where does it end up and in what form?

      Diamond, which will then be used to build the space elevator.

  38. Hold your breath; stop talking? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

    I think we should try to stop CO2 from being produced in the first place.

    Now, if all those folks in Washington, DC would just stop talking and hold their breath ... until I say, "Stop" ...

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  39. Cow Farts... wrong end! by Enter+the+Shoggoth · · Score: 5, Informative
    Actually, it's a common misconception that "cow emissions" are from cow's farting, it's actually the way a ruminant will burp during the processing of a cud that produces large volumes of methane (which is of course more troubling than CO2 emissions)

    They won't be making a pile of cash out of trees.

    Can't resist:

    1) Identify a possible source of trouble 2) Invent a fix, no matter how convoluted it is 3) Patent it and market it 4) Profit

    Just wonder how much do we have to wait for a fart capture device (cow farts are actually a major source of trouble)

    --
    Andy Warhol got it right / Everybody gets the limelight
    Andy Warhol got it wrong / Fifteen minutes is too long.
    1. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by Linker3000 · · Score: 2, Funny

      So we need to kill all the vegetarians, right?

      --
      AT&ROFLMAO
    2. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by DrSkwid · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You already kill countless billions in your inefficient food production horror system.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    3. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that why Soilent Green is green?

    4. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by blueg3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How do we kill countless billions?

      I mean, we kill lots of delicious cows, sure -- but you'd think the people whose business it was to sell us the delicious cow meat would be counting them.

    5. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by DrSkwid · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Your use of the word "delicious" doesn't counter the massive environmental damage moral degeneracy any more than saying "sweet tight pussy" would validate sex with minors.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    6. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by blueg3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree that they're orthogonal opinions. I just happen to disagree about the "moral degeneracy" bit. While the environmental damage is nonzero, it's sort of a curveball, as your original comment was only about killing animals.

      While it may not apply to you, I find it interesting that many "moral vegetarians" are in the naturalistic-fallacy camp, but animal husbandry and the human consumption of meat are hardly unnatural.

      Please make any responses more clear. The phrase "massive environmental damage moral degeneracy" is tough to parse without additional words and/or punctuation.

    7. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by operagost · · Score: 1

      Parasites and non-human predators kill quite a few, as well. Not billions, but neither do humans: because your statement is a bald-faced troll with absolutely nothing behind it.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    8. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by operagost · · Score: 1

      I see the troll was just trolled.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    9. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      I lost an "and" betwixt damage and moral.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    10. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they're countless, how do you come up with billions?

    11. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2008_Jan_7/ai_n27489648

      1 company, 50 million pounds of meat per year

      "The 52 million pounds translates to about 200 million meals in the coming year."

      Four pounds of meat per meal sounds a lot to me, I suppose that is raw weight, bones etc.

      Lets pretend that 200 million Americans eat meat such meals twice a day.

      52000000 * 2 * 365 = 737960000000 pounds of meat per year in the U.S.

      500lbs of meat on a cow, lets pretend its just cows

      75,920,000 cows

      2lbs of meat on a chicken

      18,980,000,000 chickens

      The truth lies between the two, don't forget to add on the other 95% of the world's population, I'm too lazy to work the rest out.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    12. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      1) the collection of ruminant emissions is done in the barn / holding facility for the animals. 2) there was a recent news item this past week about an AMERICAN farm using the technology to power his entire farm every day using methane-based generators. (it's not just Holland)

    13. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by Arterion · · Score: 1

      Animals are killed and eaten in the natural, untouched-by-humans wild all the time. I don't get the "OMG YOU KILL ANIMALS" argument. That's natural. That's what happens to prey animals. They are killed and eaten.

      Compared to being ripped apart by a predator's claws and eaten alive, I think our methods are humane.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    14. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Your use of the word "delicious" doesn't counter the massive environmental damage moral degeneracy any more than saying "sweet tight pussy" would validate sex with minors.

      Actually, as the age of consent is lower than the age of majority in most places, sex with minors is perfectly valid, at least in the legal sense and at least for some minors. Nice appeal to emotion, thought.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    15. Re:Cow Farts... wrong end! by dbrutus · · Score: 1

      The inefficiencies are all in government payments to farmers to grow less. We can add food any year we please by simply stopping the payments and putting more acreage into production.

  40. Someone tell me... by Rubinhood · · Score: 1

    ...how come it's better to try to remove CO2 after it's spread out in the atmosphere, in a roughly 0.0004 dilution, than at the source of CO2, like chimneys and factories and exhausts?

  41. Hey so you catch it, and then what ? by giorgist · · Score: 1

    Somebody has to make a tick box responce for this as well.

    OK, so you captured all that CO2, you have just converted your problem to CO2 sequestration.

    That is a scam and a half, it costs money to shove it underground, so calculate that. Much like oil, cheap sites for sequestration are a diminishing resource.

    You wanna fix your problem ? Don't make the stuff, not create excuses to do so ...

    These type of solutions give alibi to polluters ...

    1. Re:Hey so you catch it, and then what ? by Ihlosi · · Score: 1

      OK, so you captured all that CO2, you have just converted your problem to CO2 sequestration.

      Make some H2 by splitting water and feed both into the Sabatier process, assuming that you have a CO2-neutral power source to power all of this.

    2. Re:Hey so you catch it, and then what ? by russotto · · Score: 1

      Make some H2 by splitting water and feed both into the Sabatier process, assuming that you have a CO2-neutral power source to power all of this.

      Yeah, and if I had some ham, I could have ham and eggs, if I had some eggs.

      If we had a carbon-neutral power source good enough to reform the CO2 and H2O back into hydrocarbons, we could use it directly, no need to first extract the CO2 from the air.

    3. Re:Hey so you catch it, and then what ? by Ihlosi · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and if I had some ham, I could have ham and eggs, if I had some eggs.

      Yes, but if you don't have ham, you can't have ham and eggs. And before this invention we didn't have any chance for having ham. Now we just need to find the eggs.

      If we had a carbon-neutral power source good enough to reform the CO2 and H2O back into hydrocarbons, we could use it directly, no need to first extract the CO2 from the air.

      Really? So where are all those cars and planes running on nuclear power, solar power, geothermal power or hydro power? How do you make plastics out of electricity? I'm curious.

    4. Re:Hey so you catch it, and then what ? by russotto · · Score: 1

      Really? So where are all those cars and planes running on nuclear power, solar power, geothermal power or hydro power?

      Replace all the coal, oil, and natural gas electrical plants and then we can worry about extracting from the atmosphere the CO2 created by the transportation fuels.

    5. Re:Hey so you catch it, and then what ? by Merls+the+Sneaky · · Score: 1

      Shove the CO2 the same place you just extracted all those fossil fuels, after all thats where the excess came from in the first place.

    6. Re:Hey so you catch it, and then what ? by giorgist · · Score: 1

      That requires heaps of energy. Add it all up and and what you have is not something that works, but a theory for politicians to stop other solutions

      The joke is in the wording. So you can make collectors anywhere you want !! Say you build 100,000 of them. Now you have 100,000 small sources that you need to transport your CO2 from. Then you need to take it all to a carpet to shove it under. You start with the cheap spot, they will run out quickly (and use up energy) Then what ?!

      Use nuclear, no emissions, no pollution created (just the existing bad stuff becoming less bad)

  42. Great by Errtu76 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We have found the excuse we need to continue polluting the air. Way to go, humanity!

    1. Re:Great by rally2xs · · Score: 0

      Yeah, its great. There is absolutely no alternative for the jet engine, so if you're an airline, you put up a pile of these things and your carbon trading problem goes away, you raise your prices to pay for the towers, and the public is stuck paying for a likely useless feature when, way too late, someone finally can prove that the CO2 increase is following the rise in temperature instead of causing it.

  43. CO2 is good by bradley13 · · Score: 0, Troll

    If (a) global warming is actually happening (b) CO2 is the cause, then there are still two things to consider:

    • A warmer planet is good. They didn't call it the Medieval Climate Optimum for nothing. A warmer climate leads to more arable land and longer growing seasons.
    • CO2 is good - it is the world's best fertilizer. The increase in CO2 levels has increased crop yields up to 30% (depending on the specific crop and local climate).

    Of course, all recent evidence points to warming having ended, and having been due to natural climate variability and/or solar cycles.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:CO2 is good by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      The increase in CO2 levels has increased crop yields up to 30% (depending on the specific crop and local climate).

      And how did this unnamed study account for the improvements in fertilisers, automation and biotechnology?

      HAL.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    2. Re:CO2 is good by Ambitwistor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A warmer planet is good.

      Good for who? Norway? Or West Africa?

      A warmer climate leads to more arable land and longer growing seasons.

      Depends on where you are. If your plants are temperature limited in a temperate climate, maybe. If they're already in a warm climate, maybe not. And don't forget precipitation. When rain belts get shifted around, a lot of people end up unhappy.

      CO2 is good - it is the world's best fertilizer.

      This has got to be the most oversold benefit of CO2. CO2 fertilization helps, up to a point, if you have C3 photosynthesizers; C4 plants don't benefit. But direct manipulation FACE experiments show that this effect quickly saturates, and CO2 is often not the rate-limiting nutrient in photosynthesis; often it's water or nitrogen availability. The initial promise of CO2 fertilization hasn't really panned out; see here. It does help, but it doesn't quite help as much as one thinks, and it is often more than offset by negative climate changes.

      Of course, all recent evidence points to warming having ended,

      I hate to break it to you, but 10 years of below-average warming in a highly noisy system doesn't exactly overturn anthropogenic global warming.

      and having been due to natural climate variability and/or solar cycles.

      Natural climate variability counts against your claim, not for it. See the above: natural climate variability is quite large on short time scales, which makes short-term trends very unreliable evidence of anything. Over the long term, "natural climate variability" utterly fails to account for temperature trends over the 20th century; the only really long term cycles within the climate system itself are oceans, and the space/time pattern of ocean warming indicates the atmosphere is warming the ocean, not the other way around. Turning to external influences, there are solar cycles. Solar trends have been pretty much flat since the 1950s, and completely disagree with the warming experienced since then. They can account for some of the warming in the early 20th century, but very little of it since then.

    3. Re:CO2 is good by Robotbeat · · Score: 1

      A warmer planet is good.

      Good for who? Norway? Or West Africa?

      Well, actually, much of Africa (including West Africa) will get an increase in rainfall with an increase in temperature, according to simulations run by some guy from the Netherlands. This may even result in the "greening of the Sahara:"
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/sep/16/highereducation.climatechange

      Global warming could significantly increase rainfall in Saharan Africa within a few decades, potentially ending the severe droughts that have devastated the region, a new study suggests.

      The discovery was made by climate experts at the Royal Meteorological Institute in De Bilt, the Netherlands, who used a computer model to predict changes in the Sahel region - a wide belt stretching from the Atlantic to the horn of Africa that includes Ethiopia, Somalia and Djibouti.

      Global warming will heat the land more than the sea, leading to changes in air pressure and weather. When the Netherlands team simulated this effect and combined it with warming caused by the expected rises in greenhouse gas emissions between 1980 and 2080, they found Sahel rainfall in the July to September period jumped 1-2mm a day.

      Some scientists suspected that global warming might increase rainfall in the region, causing the so-called greening of the Sahara, but these are the biggest predicted increases so far.

    4. Re:CO2 is good by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      You're sort of right. I was vaguely trying to remember which parts of Africa got screwed for precipitation in the last IPCC report without looking at the figure. Looking at the figure, I was right: West Africa does get droughts; it's the Horn of Africa that gets most of the rain. But that's a multimodel ensemble average: more models predict drying than wetting. Looking at some of the individual studies, the results are more mixed. The paper you cite finds a band of heavier rain across the Sahel region of W. Africa, but right above and below it are bands of drought. A 2006 paper by Cook and Vizy finds more rain in W. Africa, but the eastern Sahel gets drought. Held et al. in 2005 indicate that the models lean towards more drying in the Sahel, though noting that models have traditionally had trouble with precipitation the Sahel region due to interhemispheric teleconnections with sea surface temperatures. I conclude that the rainfall patterns in this particular region are more unpredictable ...

    5. Re:CO2 is good by LeadSongDog · · Score: 1

      Of course, all recent evidence points to warming having ended, and having been due to natural climate variability and/or solar cycles.

      ...recent 1. adj. some time this evening

      --
      Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
    6. Re:CO2 is good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can someone tell the martians to stop burning fossil fuel as well please.. We know global warming is happening on Mars so given your argument (and many others), they are just as bad as we are!

    7. Re:CO2 is good by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      My argument has nothing to do with Mars. I have not claimed that CO2 is the only source of warming, and I certainly haven't claimed it's the only source of warming on all planets. I do claim that it's been the major source of global warming on Earth for the last 50 years or so.

      In fact, we don't know that global warming is happening on Mars; the warming seems mostly concentrated near its south pole, and has been attributed to changes in global dust storm activity.

  44. Wait a second... by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

    ...I may be reading this wrong, but isn't their solution essentially, "Let's build a giant Ionic Breeze?"

  45. What happens to the CO2? by Brickwall · · Score: 1

    I would have been interested to see what exactly happens to the CO2. Do they just compress the gas, which presumably would lead to storage problems eventually, or do they actually break it down into carbon and Oxygen? Or is the CO2 stored interstitially in the "scrubbing material"? (I had a friend in my engineering class that worked on storing hydrogen in steel bars; he said you could store more in the bar than you could in a compressed gas cylinder of the same size.)

    --
    What was once true, is no longer so
  46. I hope NASA is listening. by srothroc · · Score: 1

    This kind of technology would be absolutely fantastic for them if they were to set up some kind of outpost on the moon or Mars. They could also probably work on it and use it for their vehicles and the ISS too, though NASA may not be involved in that for much longer.

  47. Doing the math, scratching my head by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 1

    The numbers don't make any sense.

    100 kilowatt hours over one year is a constant load of about 12 watts.

    Air has about 0.03% CO2. Let's round that up to 0.1% or one part per thousand.

    Now comes the hard part-- how much air can a 12-watt fan force through one square meter of CO2 filter material every second? Hard to say, let's estimate ten liters for starters. That would require an efficient fan and duct and a not very restrictive filter.

    Air has a density of about 1.2 g/liter, so we're processing 12g/sec of air. Of that about 12mg is CO2. Per year that's about 380kg. Not too far off a ton, but not too close either.

    Now we have to figure out how much energy it took to make the filter material. To capture a ton of CO2 takes about an equal amount of caustic calcium or lithium hydroxides. Unfortunately if we include the CO2 emitted to make a ton of calcium or sodium hydroxide, that's way beyond me, but it may be more than 380kg equivalent of CO2.

    You have to look at all the costs and emissions involved in the whole cycle.

    1. Re:Doing the math, scratching my head by Savior_on_a_Stick · · Score: 1

      or, you could stop pulling numbers from your anus and go rtfa - then follow the links to the published papers. Or read this synopsis: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~keith/Misc/AC%20talk%20MIT%20Sept%202008.pdf

  48. Where's the Catch? by Azuma+Hazuki · · Score: 1

    Although I read (okay, skimmed) the article, it seemed very light on details. Where does all the CO2 go? The only way I could see this being even close to a solution is if the end product is carbonate rock or something similar, and even then, they'd have to bury or otherwise shield from the elements whatever the end product is. ...also, would these happen to look like small round buildings with yellow tops? Shades of SimEarth for the SNES, Batman...

    --
    ~Eien no Inori wo Sasagete~ Searching for my Hatsumi...
    1. Re:Where's the Catch? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TFA light on details? What details? Electric tower removes CO2...David Keith...University of Calgary...
      Enough to go to Google with...maybe.

    2. Re:Where's the Catch? by Hawke666 · · Score: 1

      Why specifically the SNES version?

  49. Next on the agenda.... by oDDmON+oUT · · Score: 1

    A device to scrub methane, since it's almost 100x as efficient at holding heat (see entry for GWP) than CO2, and major non biological sources seem to be venting it in mass quantities.

    --
    Some days it's just not worth
    chewing through my restraints.
  50. Carbon Sequestration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem with carbon sequestration is that it can have geo-seismic repercussions when done on an industrial scale.

    Pumping billions of tonnes of waste carbon into the ground can generate huge amounts of pressure and stress underground. It's a risky scenario without thorough in depth examination of both the target site and the current stresses beneath the surface.

  51. This was on the Discovery Channel... by Hozen · · Score: 1

    The Discovery Channel ran a show on this technology... See more here. http://www.ucalgary.ca/~keith/AirCapture.html

    1. Re:This was on the Discovery Channel... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought that immediately as well. Look for the "Fixing Carbon" episode of "Project Earth". As for what to do with the CO2, it was implied that sequestering into spent oil fields would be most optimal.

  52. And remove what little there is by denzacar · · Score: 1

    And remove what little there is of Martian atmosphere?

    I guess the next step would be to send huge quantities of white paint to Mars.
    Cause if we are going to make something a dead(er) wasteland - we better make sure it is done by some standards, right?
    Like.. you know... the Moon.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  53. i know! by nimbius · · Score: 1

    we'll use a fossil-fuel powered sustem to remove CO2 from the atmosphere we polluted using....oh...wait.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  54. carbon credits? by mevets · · Score: 1

    communist.

  55. Thank you... by denzacar · · Score: 1

    All the blah-blah and nobody addressed the question of filters.
    Are they magically-electrical or something?

    No... They are caustic soda.
    http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/project-earth/explores/carbon.html

    The key ingredient in the experiment is caustic soda, which absorbs CO2 in the air. It is added at the top of the machine. About 20 gallons of the chemical were used during the test.

    Team members check data results throughout the 20-hour experiment. The scrubber needs to remove more CO2 than it creates (about 20 lbs.) during the test.

    Hold on...
    Does that mean that the device uses 20 gallons of caustic soda, for 20 hours to create or to remove 20 lbs of CO2?

    Either way... it ain't JUST 100kW of electricity.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  56. Some points to consider by Ambitwistor · · Score: 2, Informative

    First, this isn't a new idea. Artificial air capture of CO2 has been proposed for some time; a noted proponent of this idea is Klaus Lackner. I don't think this new group has made a huge breakthrough in the technology. The basic problem is that it's (a) expensive, and (b) you have to put the carbon somewhere.

    As for (a), it's currently cheaper to just capture the CO2 at large point sources like coal plants. On the other hand, that only gets some of the emissions. While coal plants are the most serious source of CO2 right now, adding capture to power plants doesn't capture emissions from cars and other small sources. Still, right now it's easier to just make more fuel efficient cars than try to capture the CO2 they emit.

    As for (b), the sequestration problem is shared by any carbon capture technology (air capture or not). The main solutions are to pump it into geological formations in land or under the sea, or to convert it to solid form. The latter is relatively expensive and energy intensive. Storing it in the deep ocean is difficult to do on a large scale. On land there are serious limitations on how fast you can pump CO2 into a formation without pressure fractures and leaks, and even then there is a wide variety of formations whose ability to store CO2 varies dramatically. It requires careful siting, monitoring, etc. and you still have to worry about leaks, not to mention all the legal problems with people worrying about the CO2 acidifying the groundwater and leeching out heavy metals.

    That being said, I think this technology definitely needs a lot of R&D aimed at it, because though expensive and difficult, it's a fallback position to reduce CO2 levels if energy efficiency and alternative energy measures don't do enough of a job.

  57. Cool. One small problem though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many kilowatts of power can be produced from the amount of coal required for 1 ton of CO2?

    I foresee a small circular problem of making more CO2 than the system would ever remove.

  58. Better article available by IcyHando'Death · · Score: 3, Informative
    More details from http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/09/30/carbon.html

    The tower acts as a scrubber, with sodium hydroxide, also known as caustic soda, reacting with air blown into its base. A metal honeycomb system inside the tower slows down the flow of caustic soda, allowing it to efficiently scrub CO2.

    While Keith said the technology isn't new -- it's been used since the 1950s in industrial processes that call for carbon dioxide-free air -- he believes his team has surmounted one of the two biggest obstacles to CO2 capture.

    For the system to be effective, it must remove more carbon dioxide from the air than it emits as a byproduct of the energy used to run the scrubber. This summer's experiment showed that can be done, said Keith.

    He estimates that if the electricity used to run the ambient air scrubber were to come from a coal-fired power plant -- a heavy emitter of CO2 -- he could capture 10 times more CO2 than the coal plant emitted.

    1. Re:Better article available by IcyHando'Death · · Score: 2, Informative

      The tower acts as a scrubber, with sodium hydroxide, also known as caustic soda, reacting with air blown into its base. A metal honeycomb system inside the tower slows down the flow of caustic soda, allowing it to efficiently scrub CO2.

      So this answers the question that first occurred to me: in what form is the CO2 stored? For the non-chemists:

      CO2 + NaOH ==> NaHCO3 (Sodium BiCarbonate, or baking soda)

      NaHCO3 + NaOH ==> H2O + Na2CO3 (Sodium Carbonate, or washing soda)

      Look out Arm & Hammer, there's stiff competition on the horizon.

  59. Plant 1000 trees in one square meter? by bunratty · · Score: 1

    So plant 1000 trees.

    In one square meter?

    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  60. The earth is COOLING! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The warming was caused by the sun. Geological evidence and planetary evidence supports it. Now the current cooling is also cause by the sun.

    But greenie, hippy, feel-good-don't-think types don't want to hear that, do they? No, they are on a mission to "save the planet."

    1. Re:The earth is COOLING! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice job of backing up your claims with hard science AC.

  61. Frankly, I'd rather have trees by toby · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let's stop cutting down the Amazon already, shall we?

    --
    you had me at #!
  62. Other uses? by jqpublic13 · · Score: 1

    What about other uses for this technology? Assuming the surface area doesn't need to be flat (didn't read TFA, of course), then could a small tube utilize this in a diver's rebreather, or (on a larger scale) to clean the air on a submarine?

    --
    Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat.
  63. Very Bad Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently, the entire world has just lost their collective minds. You do not want to remove the CO2 from the air. If you do, you will kill all plant life on Earth. As that happens, all animal life will also die.

    For those that don't know it, CO2 is required for plants to live. And plants are required for animals to live. Do not remove CO2 from the air.

  64. We need to really get serious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seeing as oxygen causes exactly the same amount of damage to the planet as CO2, I want to know when scientists are going to come up with O2 scrubbers. I don't care what it costs--taxes and mandates are no object--just get it done!

  65. But... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    What will the trees breathe?

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  66. Bad Idea - Good Implimentaion. by BrendaEM · · Score: 1

    A disconnection between polluters and atmosphere cleaning tools breeds irresponsibility. Should the taxpayers supposed to pay to clean up industry's mess? Handle pollution at the source.

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
  67. Interesting math, two caveats by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 1

    First caveat: It's dumb to count transmission loss. Since this tower removes CO2 from the atmosphere, which is everywhere on our planet's surface, these scrubbers would obviously be built right by the powerplant.

    Second caveat: The ideal place for these things would be a place with lots of cheap, clean power and not much demand for that power. Iceland would be perfect: They have more geothermal power than they know what to do with. They could use it to scrub the whole planet's atmosphere and collect UN money for the service.

    But that's small potatoes. What I'm rather picturing is something much grander, something like giant colonies of nuclear reactors somewhere in Greenland, where they wouldn't endanger anyone, and the cooling towers would be much simpler to build because it's damn cold there already. Their sole purpose would be to scrub carbon out of our atmosphere. I think it would be great.

  68. Where does the CO2 go? by TimFreeman · · Score: 1
    So the CO2 is removed from the atmosphere. Where does it go? Lumps of graphite? Diamonds? Liquid or frozen CO2?

    If it's converted to methane, that would be funny because a carbon atom in methane aggravates global warming more than a carbon atom in CO2.

  69. Physically impossible! by DancesWithBlowTorch · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Hey guys, this is the physics police talking here. I'm sorry, but we'll have to enforce the laws of thermodynamics in this case.

    According to David MacKay:

    The unavoidable energy requirement to concentrate CO2 from 0.03% to 100% at atmospheric pressure is kT ln 100/0.03 per molecule, which is 0.13 kWh per kg. The ideal energy cost of compression of CO2 to 110 bar (a pressure mentioned for geological storage) is 0.067 kWh/kg. So the total ideal cost of CO2 capture and compression is 0.2 kWh/kg. According to the IPCC special report on carbon capture and storage, the practical cost of the second step, compression of CO2 to 110 bar, is 0.11 kWh per kg. (0.4 GJ per t CO; 18 kJ per mole CO; 7 kT per molecule.)

    In other words: It'll be at least 200kW per tonne, unless they think the CO2 will somehow magically compress itself to be stored, which is not going to happen. That, or they just invented a perpetuum mobile.

  70. discovery "project earth" show such a machine by John+Sokol · · Score: 1

    On Cable they the Discover Channel had a show in HD where they build a CO2 scrubber almost identical to the ones describe in the papers from the University of Calgary's David Keith that the article was about.

    Discover Channel
    http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/project-earth/explores/carbon.html

    David Keith Home page
    http://www.ucalgary.ca/~keith/CO2%20Capture%20and%20Storage.html

    I don't know about the whole caustic soda CO2 sequestration seems complex. David Keith papers have the whole chemistry capture and extracting the CO2 from the working fluid to reuse them.

    The whole thing is like a glorified swamp cooler, and if they were smart, they could just retrofit existing cooling towers and swamp coolers to serve dual purpose of evaporation cooling and CO2 extraction.

    I had an interesting though here, which is this is the first steps of terraforming.
    We could store CO2 underground when it's too hot, and expel CO2 if we start to get an ice age.

    Anyhow I think at this time, methane hydrates warming up on the sea floor and releasing methane in to the atmosphere is starting to occur. Or at least we are just beginning to notice anyhow.
    This could end up becoming a much larger problem then CO2 soon.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/hundreds-of-methane-plumes-discovered-941456.html

    --
    I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
  71. The simplest way to remove carbon: bury trees! by DrVomact · · Score: 1

    It seems very silly to build a machine that removes carbon dioxide from the air when we have a much cheaper solar-powered alternative at our disposal: trees. Yes, trees remove carbon dioxide from the air, binding the carbon in the form of cellulose (a.k.a. "wood"). The trick is to intelligently manage these natural carbon scrubbers so that they can aid in the fight against climate change.

    Obviously, the worst thing you can do with a tree is to burn it: that just releases all its hoarded carbon back into the air as carbon dioxide. Even turning the tree into furniture or toothpicks leaves open the likely possibility that it will some day be burned or left out in the open to rot (an oxidative process). You can leave the tree alone, of course, but that leads to sub-optimal results: most trees grow slowly (therefore binding carbon at a very unsatisfactory pace), and are virtually certain to eventually suffer from some mishap that results in their carbon load being returned to the air, thus undoing all the good they have done in their long lives.

    So what is the solution? Bury the trees! Let's devote as much acreage as we can to raising varieties of fast-growing trees (if I recall correctly, a lodgepole pine reaches maturity in about 20 years), then cutting them down and shoving them down the nearest deep hole. Abandoned mineshafts would be both practical and ironically fitting for this purpose. The harvested areas would, of course, be immediately re-planted. Net effect? We bury a bunch of carbon; it's sort of like returning oil and coal to the ground.

    Parties interested in supporting my worthy proposal may send me donations (gold, silver or other precious metals only, please). Each donation will inspire me with the sincere intention to bury a tree.

    --
    Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
    1. Re:The simplest way to remove carbon: bury trees! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, yes, bury the trees, where they will decompose in an oxygen-poor environment, resulting in production of methane rather than CO2. Funny stuff, methane -- it's a more efficient greenhouse gas than CO2.

      If you want to bury trees in order to prevent greenhouse effects, you've got to encapsulate them. Expensive (in terms of money cost and in terms of energy used to do so).

      So sorry, the easy solution you've come up with has already been considered, and found to be lacking.

    2. Re:The simplest way to remove carbon: bury trees! by o'reor · · Score: 1

      As another poster mentioned, why don't we just use those trees as a building material ? From the wooden frame to the walls ands ceilings, and up to the isolation stuff (cellulose wool) you can make cheap, long-lasting buildings entirely out of wood.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
  72. decomposing trees by macraig · · Score: 1

    Yes, but when the trees eventually die they are decomposed and release the CO2 into the air again (or in the case of biofuel, they release it into the air again when burned). It is a carbon-neutral system, both when left alone and when used as a fuel.

    I'm not a degreed botanist or bioloist, but I don't think that the mere decomposition of a dead tree by fungi and other agents actually releases much carbon back into the atmosphere; most of that carbon remains out of the atmosphere but merely changes form, right?

    Actually, if you really wanna get technical about it, trees are an indirect contributor to carbon dioxide emissions while living: they are a food source for other living things, which having been thus fed and sustained will then exhale carbon dioxide as a byproduct of consuming that tree and "combusting" the energy in its tissue. In that way it might be that trees actually return as much CO2 to the environment in a year as they remove through photosynthesis.

  73. Yes if we want CO2. But we really want coal. by wonkavader · · Score: 1

    At 7 cents per kilowatt hour, that's $140 a year per person. That's really not bad.

    But if we do a good job of this, at some point we'll have a secondary problem. How do we get all that Oxygen back?

    The normal way would be photosynthesis. That's going to build sugars, which would have some oxygen, a lot of hydrogen and a lot of carbon. We would then bury THAT.

    But it would be much better to find a way to strip most of the oxygen away from the carbon, and leave us with something like coal. How do we do it? Let's say this is 20 years from now and we have fantastic solar energy. We have a lot of electricity, and it's cheap.

    Can it be done? How?

  74. Science fiction movie fodder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can imagine this script:

    Futuristic society, post apocalyptic.

    Plants grow slowly, food is scarce

    People aren't allowed to live past 30 years old because their personal value is outweighed by the damage caused by their carbon footprint and food consumption.

    Some big machine is protected by the "elders" of the society because without it the world would cease to exist.

    Hero of story is age 29 about to turn 30.
    Hero runs away from society chased by law enforcemnt.
    Hero finds old refugees and some old guys who convinces hero that machine must be shut off.

  75. Space Elevator by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    are there any reliable and cost-effective ways to store it or dispose of it

    I think we should wait until we have a space elevator and then pump it to the top, bottle it, and bring it to the moon to feed the plants. The vacuum of space should freeze it enough that we can simply rain it down on the moon and collect the bits later. No need to do landers, just transfer orbits.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  76. homes-plant trees by zogger · · Score: 1

    Really, trees are just a much better idea. Lumber is better to store carbon from trees. We still have hundreds of millions of people living in cardboard and tincan shacks around the planet. I think it would be borderline socially criminal to bury trees instead of providing cheap lumber universally for construction. And properly made wooden houses can last a long time if they are a foot or better off the ground and away from termites. Heck, the US is still a young nation compared to nations in europe, and I have lived in still very good shape wooden homes built in the 1700s in New England. Very common. That's a long time to have stable and useful stored carbon. And having to use electricity for these manufactured devices when so many are still using oil lamps and such? Again, borderline socially criminal. Spend the manufacturing effort in building better solar PV and wind chargers and get them out there to people cheap, folks who don't have any power now, or just very expensive power.

    And large trees left alone-the ones you don't harvest for lumber, say nut producing trees- can last hundreds of years. They could store the excess carbon at least until then, and by then maybe we will have better technical climate and energy solutions-one would hope anyway.

    Anyway, for those reasons and more, I vote no on building millions of manufactured co2 suckers. Plant trees, so we can house people, provide food and fuel, help to rectify desertification, increase local water supply, provide cooling shade and cold wind blocks-trees are just spiffy. Hey, "solar powered".

  77. Mind your units... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other words: It'll be at least 200kW per tonne, unless they think the CO2 will somehow magically compress itself to be stored, which is not going to happen. That, or they just invented a perpetuum mobile.

    Do you mean 200kWh? kW is a measure of power, and kWh is a measure of energy.

    Thanks!

    1. Re:Mind your units... by DancesWithBlowTorch · · Score: 1

      Right. Sorry, I missed that h.

  78. Save the Enviornment, kill a tree! by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

    Actually, you plant the plants (paid labor) then you uproot them and bury them to "sequester the carbon" (more paid labor).

    Thousands of years later those plants have been compressed into a hard black rocky substance that can be burned.

    See... coal is a renewable resource!

    (not to step on the joke, but burying plants deep under ground is just as good an idea as all those other sequesterizing ideas. Bulk plant material would be easier to handle then trying to inject liquid CO2 deep into the earth or ocean. Think about it...)

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
    1. Re:Save the Enviornment, kill a tree! by computechnica · · Score: 1

      The problem with liquid CO2 is that it turns into gaseous CO2 very quickly and can leak back to the surface.

      ...And it also pisses off the Molemen.

  79. Thanks for doing the math... by mbessey · · Score: 1

    I was just going to do it myself, but my gut feel was that it was on the order of 10% or so. Thanks for the confirmation. Losing 10-15% off the top for carbon neutrality seems like a no-brainer. Hopefully the technology scales up to megaton levels reasonably well, and they have a good solution for what to do with the CO2 once it's been scrubbed (the article is thin on details).

  80. Cute idea, but... by mbessey · · Score: 1

    I seem to remember that the CO2 diffuses into the ocean after that, rather than staying bound where you left it. A quick Google search returns conflicting results, though. There goes another hour of my life...

  81. CO2 collection poses a problem. by Velocir · · Score: 1

    If you collect and bury CO2, you're effectively removing oxygen from the atmosphere. So a machine that does this is stupid, NO MATTER how efficient it is, because most life requires oxygen for respiration (I'm not worried about carbon sequestration because of several reasons, one of which is the ratio of 1 C atom per 2 O atoms). Trees, although they might take up more room and be less efficient in terms of volume and space than these machines, are free and give us oxygen, and look good while they do it.

  82. Remove methane? by Leithauser · · Score: 1

    Could this device be modified to remove methane instead? Methane is many times as powerful a greenhosue gas, and you could then burn it to power the device, possibly with some power left over. That would reduce global warming and provide a profit.