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New York Wants To Tax Internet Downloads
An anonymous reader writes "NY is considering taxing 'video and music' downloads to offset a burgeoning budget deficit." How long before we all have meters on our routers? This version is just a 4% tax on movies and songs downloaded from services like iTunes, but I'm sure if they could figure out a bit tax, they would.
This is nothing new; they've been talking about this for months, maybe over a year. It's caused issues with Amazon in the past, if I remember right.
Let's stop dilly-dallying and just change "-1: Overrated" to "-1: Disagree" or "-1: Doesn't Subscribe to Groupthink".
The upside of them metering one's bandwidth use would be that many people would start taking action over their windows zombie box.
New York taxes everything, a lot of it has to do with the maintenance of New York City. They get subsidies from all sorts of things, taxes, bus fares, chances are if you buy something in New York, some of that money goes to New York City. In fact, even living in New York City is taxed.
The musings of just another geek and his junk.
No tax on torrents? Cool! Bye Bye iTunes.
I would happily forward 4% of the bits that comes into my router to the NY city hall if that can help them balance their budget.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
The federal government could help the states by setting up an official repository of rates and an official reporting system standard for all 50 states. Just get the states to report their rates to the IRS, and have the IRS mandate a single, unified standard method of reporting sales taxes to all state governments on an "either you implement this, or you don't collect it" basis.
. . . that forces states to pay back the money they receive from the Federal government, and puts a harsh salary and compensation cap on politicians in those states who elect to take Federal bailout funds. The likes of California and New York clearly have no concept of what it means to "spend less," and current taxpayers are fleeing by the tens of thousands, causing them to create asinine taxes like the one in TFA and causing even more people and companies to head to more tax-friendly states. A government should be forced to plan its finances like a responsible household, taking into consideration risk, debt and spending just like the rest of us have to in reality land. After all, it's our money they're spending. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
Why does no one think to offset budget deficits but spending money more responsibly? That's what they used to do, right?
I'm sick of the attitude "we've got stuff to pay for and we need to figure out how to raise revenue to do it" regardless of how they choose to raise it. Here's a novel approach to government: we've got X dollars, how can we spend it to maximize the quality of life of our citizens? I don't get to randomly pull in more money from secondary sources if I decide I want a bigger TV this year, so why should the government?
Jealously hoarding mod points since 2007.
TFA says that this will include a tax on porn, but not all of the lawmakers are on-board with the idea of taxing porn. Apparently taxing "legitimate" movies and music is fine, but a porn tax is bad.
Things that make you go hmmmm....
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
fee on all music and video downloads â" including pornography. ... But not everyone is on board with the idea of profiting off porn. The chairman of New York's Conservative Party says that taxing it legitimizes it.
Evidently, giving porn a tax exemption wouldn't legitimize it at all.
Y'know. Where ALL the money goes.
Hmmm. Lets tax internet downloads... Genius at work. Aren't you glad your representatives are as highly effective as they are?
Deleted
Well, in effect us comcast users already do.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
If people would RTFA, they would see that this is NOT the same as what has been going on regarding Amazon and other e-tailers to collect NY state tax. That tax is "use tax" that you as a private citizen are required to pay regardless of whether the retailer collects it. This article is about charging for digital downloads. It is about the medium. With exceptions, current tax codes only require the payment of tax for tangible goods. iTunes downloads fall outside the scope of the definition of "tangible goods." See: http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/publications/multi/pub20_1007.pdf
So what they're really saying is to hit the torrent store for our online "purchases" rather then stay legit and send more tax revenue to a bunch of $100K/yr earning public servants who got NYS into this budget problem in the first place.
I'm sure this was proposed over a $1000/plate fund-raiser dinner.
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START
When times were good, state governments spent and spent and spent. Spending cuts are painful, politically and otherwise, so they need to raise more revenue.
Unlike the federal government, they can't borrow without reasonable limit or fire up the printing presses. But also unlike the federal government, it is easier to move to another part of the country than outside the country itself.
So they'll try to tax things like downloads as opposed to a general hike on income taxes, which are already high in NY State (correct me if I'm wrong).
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
...except one.
You know...thingy.
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
If more boxes are going to the shop to be cleaned, that means those shops would be hiring more cleaning techs. At least in theory.
Not to mention the sales tax on the cleaning service.
So, all in all, this just MIGHT help their local economy.
This 4% rate is exactly identical to the state sales tax rate for everything else in New York. Hell, they're being ridiculously nice -- it's half what you'd actually pay in most cities (which add their own rate, usually in the vicinity of 3-5%, on top of the state rate).
The fact that downloads don't get taxed in some states is a bizarre anomaly, and has no logical basis. CDs and DVDs are not exempt from sales tax, exempting their online counterparts is wildly inconsistent. Argue all you want about the merits of taxes in general or sales taxes in particular, but there's nothing remarkable here. Just a state closing a silly loophole.
New York is a welfare state.
It is real condition http://mises.org/story/2225
OUR system needs fuel in form of money. Anything that can be considered (at least to a tipping point) as a social negative will be taxed like crazy to keep the machine running. It is a process like perpetual motion. It will attrify and die eventually unless we come to our senses and correct the current system.
Tax revolt NOW!
State, Local & Federal governments have been as irresponsible as the financial sector they set the rules for and then didn't oversee, probably because of donations and revolving door employment between government and the companies in that sector.
They have never admitted that taxes can be too large and stifle investment and productivity.
Reagan showed that it was possible to stimulate activity by lowering taxes, but now all we are hearing is raising taxes. Nowhere have I yet heard anything about reducing government spending programs.
The mega-push for Socialism has reached steam-roller stage.
So you just buy your itunes from an off shore account ( no tax ) then FTP your file home.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I understand the need for Taxes. I'm willing to pay taxes. There is a benefit of the state providing some services.
Your problem is that you've run out of money. Yes, you can ask the citizenry to give you more money, but then what happens when you erroneously spend that money?
Budget shortfalls are a symptom of poor budget expenditure. Yes, New York state likely is receiving less funding than it was previously, but that also means that services are not being used to the extent that they were previously. Make the adjustments, rather than piling your spending problems on someone else.
I am reminded of the story about the goose that laid the golden egg. Setting any kind of state wide per bit tax would drive companies away that use the internet to deliver a product witch the states already tax unless all of the states got together and did this at once. In which case the heart of the internet would be driven further from U.S.
If one views downloads as goods or services, states typically levy sales taxes. They can only make the seller pay the taxes if the seller has a point-of-presence in that state. And I'm guessing there are a few company owned Apple stores in NY.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
If California and New York got as many federal dollars back as they pay in federal taxes, they would have a surplus. They're not irresponsible, they just don't have enough money to pay their bills and the bills of everyone else, too.
It's true. Check out the numbers.
There's no way to revive it. As REM had foreseen, the world we knew has ended, and now we're just drifting until a new wind catches our sails.
If the Federal government would just fix the debt problem, all these other problems would rapidly fix themselves.
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
Because it is the frickin' Government, a government that is elected by people who now pay less and less tax. If you election strategy is to offer +50% of the electorate more services at less taxes, then you have to soak everyone else and then claim they will take it all away when election time comes.
Conservative, mod down for violating
NY and you are ignoring three very basic points:
1) The US Constitution prohibits states from taxing anything crossing state lines.
2) A server can be located anywhere.
3) People will minimize their tax paid.
If NY puts this law into effect, then the affected servers will be moved out of state, and no tax will be due or collected.
As a side-note, we produce and sell packaged software. We're in California. We get sales-tax returns mailed to us from Louisiana. We throw them out, unopened.
Just redefine what the meaning of "is" IS... this seemed to work well for our former President Clinton...
Instead of downloading something that YOU bought and now own. You are renting/licensing code or essentially just using someone else's property under contract.
If the tax man decides to tax bandwidth useage (electric-meter style), just imagine how expensive the NetFlix movies will now cost via mail since nearly every DVD movie disc is just over 7GB+ each!
(Reminds me of the phrase "never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of backup tapes"...)
I hate to be that curmudgeon old fart, but once they get something, they don't give it back. And once they start taxing something, it's easier for you to accept new taxes.
But just read and grasp what the whole concept of this is here. NY wants to TAX you for NOT shopping in their state. You want to save money by buying online, they want to TAX you for saving money.
I'm not going to get into any Republican vs Democrat ideals here; I just want everyone in NY to understand what is fundamentally happening. You exercised your right as a consumer to not shop somewhere, and you are being charged for it.
When modding "Informative", please make sure it both has a source and IS actually informative.
Think about it for a moment. We have enough processing power that we can tie taxes to specific projects at the fraction of a cent level.
Why not let the voters vote for projects AND the taxes to fund them? If they want another school, then they get a property tax increase of $3.15 on all property in area X.
If they want to fill in the pot holes on 1st Avenue then they increase the sales tax by 0.013%. And when the project is finished, the tax is repealed.
Let the people see EXACTLY what they're spending the money on.
If someone runs for office claiming to want to "cut taxes" then let them specify EXACTLY what projects will be cut and the people can see how much they'll be saving.
A government should be forced to plan its finances like a responsible household, taking into consideration risk, debt and spending just like the rest of us have to in reality land. After all, it's our money they're spending. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
Because it's provably wrong, impossible, and stupid, all at once.
Look: state spending (primarily health care and education) rises and falls according to population trends, while revenue from taxes rises and falls according to state GDP. Once population starts growing faster than GDP, the state starts falling further and further behind the revenue curve, with no way out except to borrow like crazy and increase the mill rate on taxes (both of which NYS has done to death already).
Slashing spending on health care and education kills people, kills jobs and sacrifices the future, at a time when we should be spending more on these things, not less (but NYS is trying this too, thanks Gov. Paterson).
taxpayers don't realise that everything comes with a price tag. The infra structure provided in those two states greatly exceeds the proporcional increase in one's tax pay. basically, if you want to live in a city that has more job opportunities, higher GP per capita, culture and entertainment for the masses, better highways, subway systems, metropolitan trains, nightlife, health system, progressive education (creationism? really?), that normally comes with a price tag.
right next to the part where Congress holds themselves to account.
Honestly, everything you attributed to NY and California is attributable to the Federal Government. Worse, they Feds have no restraint whereas states do. The Feds aren't even bothering to try and balance the budget.
Face it, through years of manipulation Congressmen have managed to lay the blame for all things at the feet of people who have money while themselves spending money they don't have.
Congressmen vilify the businessman who sends his kids to private school, flies private jets, and vacations overseas, all the while doing the same thing on our dime. Congress chides the business for laying off people, losing money, or asking for money, all the while doing the same thing.
Look, the majority has spoken, they want all they can get from those who make money while there is still some to get.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
New York and California pay more taxes to the fed than they receive back. You should be complaining about New Mexico, Mississippi or Alaska. http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.html
You do realize we already pay a tax for bandwidth. Look at your internet bill.
Really? Because I thought it all just went to the ISP, which used it to upgrade their infrastructure^W^W^W hand out golden parachutes.
You have your very own troll! Mean little cuss, too...
Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur...
"Force shits upon Reason's back." - Poor Richard's Almanac
Nothing would get the attention of the state of New York quite like every out-of-state online retailer refusing to sell to any NY resident or to ship items to a NY address.
*shrug*
Insightful and funny are really the same thing, except one has a punch line.
That's funny . . . California lost 144,000 people between July 1, 2007 and July 1, 2008, and New York lost 126,000 during the same period. Both states' populations are shrinking, not growing. According to you, state spending should be falling, but both states are tens of billions in the hole and scrambling to come up with new taxes to make up for the revenue they're losing from the people who left and continue to leave for more tax-friendly states. You can spin it all you want, but people and companies are getting the hell out of CA and the Northeast, and the primary reasons are high taxes and high cost of living. Increasing spending (which requires higher taxes on the poor souls who choose to stay when you have a negative population growth) will only make people leave faster.
Call Joe the Plumber and his Plumbers crack to unclog them inter-tubes!!!
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
How would they implement such a system? How will they classify what data constitutes a 'music' or a 'video' download? How will they handle torrents?
I'll tell you how. By implementing a half-arsed system and then prosecuting a random selection of the millions of people taking advantage of the inability of the system to deliver what lawmakers in their technological ignorance think ought to be possible.
Politicians attempt technically infeasible, draconian power grab on the Internet. How is this news?
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
And I'll probably get marked troll for this...
But spend less money. Stop trying to tax us to death.
...our governor is an idiot. He wants to tax almost everything, except diet soda (although he is taxing gym membership and recreational sports like skiing).
Since this is a "4% tax" it sounds like they must be planning to levy it as a sales tax to be collected by any vendors who have to collect New York sales tax for transactions within the state; otherwise it doesn't make any sense to talk about "4%". One alternative would perhaps be that it could be a bandwidth tax to be collected by all of the New York ISP's - which would be more collectible: in most cases, your ISP certainly knows where you live even if (as in the case of wireless) it's only where you receive your bill.
But if it's going to be a standard sales tax, that raises all sorts of other problems. Most obviously, it provides a significant disincentive for companies selling downloads to locate in New York; it would be hard for them to collect tax from some company based in Canada, for example. But it also raises the question of how a company knows who they're dealing with; with many payment options, the customer's location need not be given, and since this is an Internet download if the company does ask for an address it would be easy enough for the customer to enter an out-of-state address to avoid paying the tax, and the company would never be the wiser. If the state requires them to use IP addresses to determine the customer's tax liability, it can often be difficult to determine the exact state for an IP address in a border area or in many other situations, and doesn't even address the problem of proxy servers that might be used deliberately or otherwise to avoid paying the tax.
Since the TFA is rather short on specifics, it's hard to tell how unworkable this might be, though whenever the Legislature - any Legislature - is in session, hare-brained schemes abound. It does sound like they're trying to see just how many people they can annoy with this kind of law.
Blue states love high taxes, and their populations vote accordingly. They're just "spreading the wealth around." However, that does not absolve their governments from planning for a rainy day, creating balanced budgets and paying their bills.
Did you even read the article you linked? They buried it, but these are total losses not net losses; both CA and NY populations continue to grow overall due to births and immigrations greatly outnumbering tax fliers.
They used to have these smarmy little commercials about how you were required by law to pay a use tax if you bought something out of state. Do they still do those?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
This guy is going to have his 1 partial term in office and then he's going to fade into the background when we elect ourselves a more qualified governor in a couple of years.
The amazon tax, is illegal. I don't think it's going to last, at least I thought so.... but I've been searching for lobbying groups to join to fight the implementation of it..but can't find anyone willing to stand up and do something about it. Bunch of sheep.
I don't know what 'taxing downloads' really means...more sales-tax? Or is the Mother-Fracker looking to tax bits/bandwidth used? The latter is kind of funny actually--he'd get a windfall in torrent derived revenue. :P
But yeah, this guy isn't going to last in office..I can only hope that the 'process' drags on long enough so that he's out before it comes up for the proper votes.
Huh?
On the one hand, I totally agree that the government needs to do a better job of planning its finances than it has in the past 8 years.
On the other hand, if your household income dropped precipitously on a temporary basis, isn't that time to dip into savings to get by? It's a lot more expensive to lose a car now and attempt to regain one later than it is to simply try to hold on to it through dipping into resources.
We're currently planning on investing a whopping 2 trillion dollars to try and recover our economic footing. Assuming that is amortized over 4 years, that's actually *less* additional debt per year than the federal deficit under Bush Jr.
The ______ Agenda
Setting up proxies in New Jersey.
I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
You're right, of course. I should have said that the states' tax bases are shrinking -- illegal immigrants and newborn babies don't pay taxes.
burdgeoning
Ack. The pain!
Be careful with your big words there, sonny. You might hurt someone.
burgeoning
The fact that downloads don't get taxed in some states is a bizarre anomaly, and has no logical basis. CDs and DVDs are not exempt from sales tax, exempting their online counterparts is wildly inconsistent. Argue all you want about the merits of taxes in general or sales taxes in particular, but there's nothing remarkable here. Just a state closing a silly loophole.
This has little to do with New York. This has to do the the consequences of starting a tax of ANY kind for an online good. Period. CDs and DVDs are exempt online? Well, no shit sherlock, perhaps that's because 99% of everything else online is too. This has to do with allowing the cracks in the proverbial dam to widen. Allow one tax, and I can promise you that 50 more will be passed this year alone.
Sorry, but I don't feel like paying more taxes to the criminals in charge because they've seem to have found a way to steal more money.
Wow, that's racist. I didn't say "illegal" immigration, the vast majority of immigrants are legal workers with visas.
Per census bureau data:
Population Growth 2000-2008
CA 8.5%
NY 2.7%
Don't new yorkers already pay "use" tax and "download" tax on their monthly internet bill already? I live in GA and I can tell you that my internet bill is not tax free. Thus, this "download" tax would be double taxation to them.
Most households can't handle their own budgets. If John and Jane Q. Public can't get their shit together, how can we expect them to get a grip on the actions of two separate governments (state and Fed.)?
Also, the ways in which government uses money are out of the realm of comprehension even to experts, at least in some cases. If John and Jaen don't 'get it,' how can they seek to better regulate it?
Message contains 1 attachment: spam.gif
The really neat question will be, IMO, things like the on-demand/live streaming service from places like Netflix and Comcast. I believe that they have physical infrastructure in NY, so that would mean they are impacted.
The movies and TV shows that they stream DO have a value, even if that value is calculated as a fraction of the monthly subscription one pays. How much of that monthly subscription should be the basis for the tax that NY wants to collect?
TFA is silent on this point, but I'm curious how they'd be able to implement something like that via legislation..
California has almost 3 million illegals. That's almost 8% of the state's population who are not paying taxes, and it's part of the reason the state is $41 billion in the hole (the cost of illigal immigrants to California is $10.5 billion annually, according to the Federation for American Immigration Reform). People who think it's "racist" to state that illegal immigrants generally don't pay taxes are full of shit and clearly don't have a clue as to what real racism is.
Quiet time is quiet?
What part of "illegal immigrant" implies a certain race? I think you are the racist one for suggesting that only certain races come here illegally. They come from all countries/backgrounds/races btw.
Census is only done every 10 years and I highly doubt it could accurately count illegal immigrants.
Oh, that's right - NOBODY did.
A sentence you'll never see on an Internet discussion board: "You know what? You're right."
I assure you, if New York could figure out a way to tax you per stroke, they certainly would!
Wait... we were talking about golf here, weren't we?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
The likes of California and New York clearly have no concept of what it means to "spend less,"
Yes, the above tax is stupid, but your comment is pretty silly too. I've loved living in California, where a salary that pays cost of living automatically puts me in a Jumbo mortgage and a high federal income tax bracket. I didn't hear anyone complaining about CA and NY when the economy was booming and people were using my tax dollars to pay for Nebraska farmers to NOT farm their land. Wait, they still are. How about we stop that?
without enough donations if metered bandwidth were the case.
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START
It will make the middle class wage earners leave, but there would be no impetus to make the poor or the rich leave. The former are just leaching anyway, and the latter don't give a rat's ass because they have a billion times more than they could ever need anyway. So you'd end up in a state with poor and rich people both happy as clams, and no jobs for the middle class.
It'll be interesting to see how that chart changes after the spendulous package.
that'll solve their budget problem.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Government is a necessary evil. Government must be funded by taxes. When the economy changes, the government must change as well to collect taxes to continue to operate.
Imagine the look you'd get if you suggested that government shouldn't charge taxes on fuel for the new automobile, and should find a way to subsist on the taxes they currently collect on horse shoes.
You're making the same argument, and I'm giving you the same look.
Hey I'm fine with it if that means we can have a "Mistress" tax that applies to Mayors and Governors of NY. I'm thinking like 15% tax on the hush money they are given?
Purchases at the store counter are taxed, but this measly, nagging little in-your-face tax is going to make Governor Paterson and the NY state Democratic Party look really bad. I pay taxes once a year for most big things. Now I'll be reminded every time I spend 99 cents that New York state - and by inference, the New York state Democratic Party - has a direct connection to my wallet. Not just for the big things, but even for the niggling things. If I had to pay a Republican to come up with a more effective reinforcement of the "tax and spend" stereotype that the Democrats have tried to distance themselves from for years, i don't think I could have done better than this moronic idea. A very poorly conceived proposal from a tactical political standpoint, it highlights that fact that the Democrats may win the battle but in the end they lose the war (and I'm a NYS Democrat).
I want to see a provision in the stimulus package... that forces states to pay back the money they receive from the Federal government, and puts a harsh salary and compensation cap on politicians in those states who elect to take Federal bailout funds.
Your idea is interesting, but where do the tax dollars being spent by the federal government come from? Which states pay out more than they get back and which pay out less? If you haven't noticed, it is the states like New York and California that have been subsidizing the rest of the country for decades. I think actually enforced salary caps on the executives of companies that take bailout funds makes a lot more sense than that of politicians, although salary caps for politicians in general seem reasonable (just not in response to the stimulus bill).
The likes of California and New York clearly have no concept of what it means to "spend less," and current taxpayers are fleeing by the tens of thousands, causing them to create asinine taxes like the one in TFA and causing even more people and companies to head to more tax-friendly states.
I live in Michigan. We're getting as much or more bailout money than any other state. We're losing people at the fastest rate in the country. We have been lowering spending to the point of just letting criminals go because we can't afford to house them and letting roads become impassable because we can't afford to plow them. The problem here is not runaway state spending. In fact our more expensive unemployment programs are one of the few things that have saved us from total collapse.
A government should be forced to plan its finances like a responsible household, taking into consideration risk, debt and spending just like the rest of us have to in reality land. After all, it's our money they're spending. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
Partly because government finances don't work the same as household finances and partly because you're mistaking the economic problem.
First, the US borrowing money from foreign powers is different than a household borrowing money from the bank. To some extent we literally can create wealth through borrowing because it is the perception of wealth that provides the true value of our currency. We're getting to the point where such borrowing is very dangerous though and we need to find other ways.
Second, you seem to think the US economic problems are the result of too little wealth, as if the household had spent all their money. That's not the case. Mostly we invest money in different segments of our society. The problem with the US is rapid and unpredictable changes in the value of our investments leading to long term collapse. This is caused, not because we don't have enough wealth, or even less wealth than before the collapse, but because of the distribution of that money. Right now, one member of the family has all the money and none of the others can invest in ways to make money because they have no opportunity. As a result, whether or not those other members of the family can buy lunch depends upon unrealistic debt, stealing money from the rich family member's wallet, and gifts of money from that family member (sometimes given under threat).
Research wealth disparity now and during the great depression and economic models that surround it.
Instead, I think there should be a SPAMer tax, then the government will have a surplus of funds.
George (gk4)
The New York Yankees are getting $1.312 billion from tax-free bonds for financing their new stadium this year. The New York Mets are getting a mere $636 million from tax-free bonds to finance their new stadium this year as well. That's only $2 billion in tax-free bonds for professional baseball teams that New York City has given out this year.
Overall, this is costing New York taxpayers alone, $1.2 billion, which includes lost revenue and infrastructure improvements (such as improving public transportation).
Everyone is complaining that New York State taxes everything (an 18% soda tax was proposed by our governor recently) but we know that the government loves giving major giant corporations like the Yankees and Mets tons of tax-free money.
- - - -
Anyways, regarding online pornography, the industry brought in $2.84 billion in 2006. The cable, pay-per-view and phone sex industries brought in $2.19 billion that year. The governor merely looked at data of what business made good money (this also applies to all digital music and movie downloads) and said "how can we take some of their money for ourselves?" to his advisers. He did the same thing for online retailers like Amazon and NewEgg and said "New York State wants their money".
And the reason that some of the government heads are objecting to taxing porno...
"By taxing it you're legitimizing it," said Michael Long, chairman of New York's Conservative Party. "You're sending a message to the children, you're sending a message to the teenagers, if you're taxing it -- how can it be wrong? I don't know how you can sink much deeper."
So by that logic, you shouldn't tax fatty foods, soda, beer, or cigarettes as those things are actually physically harmful but because they've been taxed, teenagers think they are legitimate and not harmful. I know when I was young, the moment I heard that they taxed cigarettes and they were legitimate (whatever the hell that means) I said "I have got to smoke me some".
And yes, pornography is extremely harmful to all of our teenagers, my eye exams have gotten worse and worse since I first discovered adults films and other activities.
Half of this post is serious, half is in sarcasm. Either way I haven't liked hearing the words 'New York' and 'tax' within fifteen sentences of each other for a long time. Go Mets (and tax free this season!).
I'm just G** D***** taxed more than enough already, taxed, fee'ed, surcharged and I'm fed up. The government has to learn to downsize, layoff, force paycuts to the highest paid workers, furloughs whatever it takes but I'm tired of the "government" constantly reaching into my pocket whenever they say "Oh revenue is down"!
I lived in CA for two years. I left eight years ago because it was waaaaaaaay too expensive back then, and I'd never live there again for that very same reason -- pretty much impossible to buy a house without having a two hour commute. Remember, it is your choice to live there -- no one's making you stay -- and you and your fellow Californians continually vote to increase your own tax burden. Heck, I'm now in Maryland, and am planning on moving back to Florida because MD is headed down the same tax-crazy, anti-business path as the rest of the Northeast and the CA.
I will, however, certainly agree with you re: farm subsidies (and pretty much everything else that the Federal government subsidizes). I'll even make a leap and guess you were against the Republicans wasting hundreds of billions of dollars in Iraq, and I'd agree with you there too. Some of us still believe in less government, less spending, and less taxes, but unfortunately, there's no political party for us these days -- and most importantly, two wrongs don't make a right. :-(
Also a newborn has to be fed, housed, clothed, treated medically, educated, et al. Each of those needs stimulates the economy. At some point that baby will be an adult tax payer,(chances are). So you are right, a newborn is only a problem if you want to frame it that way.
You mean paying taxes on their less than minimum wage jobs? Yeah... that's the problem.
Part of the problem is entitlement programs, the problem being that, regardless of tax revenues, the government is required to spend fixed amounts for each person or other entity qualifying for the program. It doesn't matter whether those obligations exceed revenues; the recipient is 'entitled' to the money (hence the name). I remember reading some years ago how Ahh-nold, if he completely cut everything in the California budget that he could control funding for, would only reduce the state budget by 10%. And as long as a government is able to establish an obligation to pay out funds whether or not it has taken in enough funds to meet those obligations, we're going to get situations like this. But those entitlement programs are sacred cows, and few politicians are willing to face the backlash from making the truly hard choices, instead ignoring what the economic conditions are doing to the taxpayers and ratcheting up taxes to cover those entitlement programs, even though the citizenry they're increasing taxes on are, on the whole, earning less money, so the taxes have to be increased more to account for them being in a lower tax bracket, which drives their net economic situation even further down.
Last I knew, Massachusetts is the only state that actually has a declining population.
It isn't exactly true that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. For example, many illegal immigrants use a fake social security number so they can get a job. Just like any other worker, part of their income is withheld and sent to the government (especially FICA and payroll taxes). In fact, since they are using fake social security numbers, they can't file for any refund and often times end up paying more than they would have if they had been legal citizens (since many lower income workers end up receiving money back at tax time). While some illegal immigrants work under-the-table jobs and don't pay any income taxes, they still pay sales taxes and other non-income taxes. In addition, many illegal immigrants avoid taking advantage of social services out of fear of being deported, making them less likely to be a drain on these taxpayer-supported institutions.
While illegal immigration is a complex and vexing issue, do not make it out that illegals do not pay taxes. Here is a look at the issue: http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html
Sales tax
California has almost 3 million illegals. That's almost 8% of the state's population who are not paying taxes,
You know, I hear this all the time here in TN, where we have a 9.25% sales tax and no state income tax. Maybe you can answer the question that your intellectual kinsmen here never can seem to answer.
Where is it that these illegals are buying groceries? And gasoline? Where do they live that there isn't a property tax? I'm serious when I ask this. I have to pay taxes on most stuff that I buy, but then I find out that illegals don't. Are they simply shopping at the same places as me, and producing an "illegal alien" identification card that lets them skip paying the taxes? Does the gas pump knock off the 18 cent federal tax and 21 cent state tax on gasoline if a car pulls up with an unlicensed driver? I've looked closely many times when Mexicans were getting gas and the pump shows the same $/gallon as my pump, but maybe that's to fool me and when they go to pay the cashier knocks the tax off?
Let me know, if you can. The mouthbreathing racists around here seem to turn into stroke victims when I ask them such questions.
Do you have ESP?
Last I knew, Massachusetts is the only state that actually has a declining population.
In 2008, Massachusetts did not have a declining population. Rhode Island and Michigan were the two that did.
Ripping off stuff from corporations is bad... they bribe the government to keep you in line.
But if you are ripping off the government of its much desired tax revenue, there is a looooong history of the government hopping on your neck with jack boots. They just want the money. Perhaps you can pay the 4% tax while still downloading and not paying the corporations... Sort of like the MJ tax stamps.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
California has almost 3 million illegals. That's almost 8% of the state's population who are not paying taxes
Maybe you should legalize all those immigrants so you can collect taxes from them.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Sounds like broken promises and crocodile tears... Renewed Hope and Faith in government inspired by Obama, quickly fading.
I'm pretty conservative when it comes to employment. I helped run a business so saw everything firsthand from the employer's POV, and on most issues I'm solidly on the employer's side. But what you say isn't exactly true. Illegals who are hired legally (i.e. they produce a fake Social Security card, and the business is none the wiser) pay income taxes - it's withheld from their paychecks even if they eventually never file a tax return. They also pay sales taxes since they have to buy stuff locally. It's only the illegals who are paid under the table in cash who aren't paying taxes, and that's more a problem of a corrupt business knowingly hiring illegals. As an honest employer who has to compete with their sub-minimum-wage and tax-less payroll, I shed no tears when the INS raids them.
First of all -- I'm talking about illegal immigrants, not Mexicans (your word). I don't care where they're from -- my problem is that they're in the country illegally and not paying (all of) their taxes.
You know, I hear this all the time here in TN, where we have a 9.25% sales tax and no state income tax.
I'll trade you MD's 6% sales tax and 11% combined state and local income taxes for your 9.25% sales tax and no income tax (and no tax on retirement assets either). Deal?
Where is it that these illegals are buying groceries
Since when are non-luxury groceries like milk, bread, and produce taxed in most states? Even in your state of TN, they're only partially taxed.
Are they simply shopping at the same places as me, and producing an "illegal alien" identification card that lets them skip paying the taxes?
Even better than that -- they can get a (welfare) card that gets them stuff for free, even though they're not supposed to be here in the first place. Here in MD, it's ironically called an Independence Card. Other states have similar programs. Hell, in MD, illegal immigrants can even qualify for in-state tuition discounts ahead of out-of-state US Citizens! Go ahead and wrap your brain around that one for awhile.
I've looked closely many times when Mexicans were getting gas and the pump shows the same $/gallon as my pump, but maybe that's to fool me and when they go to pay the cashier knocks the tax off?
You're assuming it's their vehicle and their gas money, and not the boss's (unlikely if they're here illegally in the first place -- how would they register the car and get licensed? Or are they breaking even more laws?). Other the other hand, 1/3 of all drivers in the state of CA are uninsured, leading to huge increases to the cost of auto insurance.
Bottom line -- I don't know how it is in TN, but in CA and in my blue state, MD, illegal immigrants are treated as victims, not criminals, at a tremendous cost to our states' governments. Don't mistake people being pissed at another group thinking they're so special that they don't have to follow the rules and wait in line, for racism. I could care less what race people are as long as they follow the laws like those of us who do and pay ALL of our taxes.
...both literally and figuratively.
Lets cut to the chase here.
Anyone else find it obvious?
Jerk-offs, wanting to tax jerking off?
{face palm} It's a Monty Python skit. Hand in your geek credentials immediately. You are no longer qualified to carry them.
The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
If they don't want to "legitimize" porn, but want to tax everything else, wouldn't it make sense to classify your stuff as porn? After all, nobody can define porn, so I don't know of any law against calling *too much* stuff porn. Seems like a reasonable plan to me to avoid taxes.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
budget is there because Congressmen use that budget to hide projects knocked out of general spending bills.
I know of certain charts that like to attribute payment of the debt as military spending but the military spending is the least of our problems. No matter how much you scale it back we cannot get out from under the social obligations of medicare and social security without making people realize the government cannot do it all. The promises far outstrip the ability of this country to pay.
The military budget takes up 16.6% in direct budget expenditures. 484 billion of which you can add another 150 to 200 billion for "war on terror". So lets say 700 to be nice. Considering the budget was 2.9 TRILLION of which 1.4 is MANDATORY spending you aren't going to save us by cutting the military spending.
It will help, don't get me wrong. I am not for not cutting some from the military budget; we do have a few extra carriers at least let alone all those old bases kept around because Congress forces the military to keep them open.
No, the only path to a balanced budget is to cap spending. All spending bills must sunset. Benefits must be scaled back. We must stop handing out money to everyone with a hand out for them. We have to tell people - do it yourselves. The government can help but it cannot be the solution.
We just spent 900 BILLION dollars in how many days? How much of that is for the military? This is on top of of the budget. So that would put military spending even further lower as a percent.
Scale it down all you want, guess we can try to make up the jobs with failed dream industries that never materialize and promises.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Except that argument is diminished by the product being digital. e.g. Itunes.
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
Well my PC is a Windows zombie box. I'm playing Left for Dead.
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
If we're going to tax everything, lets do it with the intent of providing serious services to our citizens, such as universal health care like France.
If we're not going to provide our citizens here in NY with such services... then dont tax us.
Its that simple. What do we get for this tax? The state needs money? FOR WHAT? To continue providing the same shitty school system? The same filthy transit system?
Do yourself a favor and watch Sicko on showtime this month.
I pay $970 a month for blue cross health care. The LAST thing i need in this economy is to be taxed for soda, plastic bags, online shopping, and downloads on top of everything else.
If you're going to tax the shit out of me.... then lets get the services we all need such as quality universal health care.
I keep seeing that information but so far in four years of asking NO ONE has been able to tell me what goes into the calculations!
Do you know or are you flinging about numbers that you don't understand and can't explain when asked?
It's so bad here in California that folks from Colorado have been actively soliciting businesses to relocate to a more tax friendly environment: http://www.denverpost.com/theeconomy/ci_11708094 Their timing is perfect, since our state's legislator was schedule to hash out a tax increase package over this past weekend.
Wow, that's racist. I didn't say "illegal" immigration, the vast majority of immigrants are legal workers with visas.
You sir are a moron! It is completely disingenuous to call someone racist because they bring up illegal immigration!
Actually it has been shown that illegal immigrants are more likely to end up in the hospital with no insurance and make the public foot the bill. After all you can only ignore a gunshot wound for so long.
Hmmm. Did you really think that one through? Really? Try again. If we opened the flood gates we would have a lot more than 3 million immigrants added to the pool of immigrants already coming in. We would have tens of millions. If you mean to only grant amnesty to those here then I argue on moral standing because I don't think we should reward those who break the law.
That would certainly solve California's problem with a shrinking tax base.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
The sky doesn't fall very often (meteors being the exception), but there are plenty of wolves in the forest.
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
I'm not sure what happens if you don't. 'Nothing at all' is quite likely, though I wouldn't wish to bet on not being arrested whilst travelling in the EU if you evade a really huge amount. The EC doesn't seem to have realised they're being a complete arse.
There are 27 EU countries and they all have different rules on what is subject to VAT and what rate to charge. You're supposed to apply the correct rate for each sale - depending where your customer is - and account for each country separately.
This is the simplified system, BTW. The complicated version means submitting up to 27 VAT returns to 27 governments, in 22 languages.
Reference: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/traders/e-commerce/article_1610_en.htm
So let me understand this:
Now that DRM is, for the most part not faring well and people are paying for music and video downloads - they want to put a tax on them and increase the price which will then upset and discourage people from using any taxed services and likely will push them towards file-sharing alternatives?
or....is that that they are using this a back door to an enforcement strategy?
Think about it - once music downloads are taxed if people are eschewing paid services and moving to filesharing and downloading music without paying tax - well then.....Isn't busting people for tax related offenses the last refuge when the state can't get them on more direct charges?
"[i]Maybe you should legalize all those immigrants so you can collect taxes from them.[/i]"
So you're saying that we should reward lawbreakers with amnesty while those who've been following the law from the beginning are forced to sit in their home country for a much longer time because the job they could have come to this country to get has been taken by the guy who broke all the rules to get there first?
Oh yes, that's fair and just alright.
Whenever I hear someone pulling for amnesty for illegals, I just think back to that poor guy who's been waiting for years to get into the US because he's chosen to have respect for our laws and our country. He's stuck there waiting, so why should the guy who didn't give a damn about laws, respect, or even his fellow citizens get the free ride?
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
wait...won't this promote piracy?
because 4% on $0 is...well... $0.
I guess the governor is too blind (figuratively and literally) to see that this is a bad idea.
If only we can get the RIAA/MPAA to lobby against this as it promotes piracy.
I know the porn industry will be up and arms with this though.
In TN, some groceries are taxed at a 1% lower rate than everything else. 1%.
Something else you people may be interested in is that most illegal immigrants actually *do* pay the taxes that you claim they don't. Interestingly, most pay social security and medicare even though they can't legally "collect" on the back end.
I've watched the debate here for years. The bottom line is that those against "illegal immigrants" are against "immigrants", and they use illegals as their entry point for the larger debate. Same way many medical marijuana advocates actually want full legalization.
Do you have ESP?
Illegal aliens cannot get welfare. They have to supply a social security card, which is checked to get any entitlements. And some states will license illegal aliens to drive -- it is not the job of a state to do the work of the INS and, for safety reasons, it makes sense to do so.
Maryland and most states actually benefit from illegals. The food on your dinner table is most probably a product of their hard work. The daily work done on a regular basis for cash, under the table, helps support you with all of the necessities you like on a day to day basis, like clean dishes in restaurants, poultry with no feathers on your table, neighbors with clean back yards that are not infested with kudzu or poison ivy...
I'm going to bet your family is not Native American. I'm also going to bet they come from somewhere else than North America. This country was founded and built on people who didn't come from here and you are standing here saying, in effect: "I've got mine, now screw the rest of the world."
As Will Rogers said, "Trouble with Christianity is nobody has tried it yet.
Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
Smart move! Make people pay even more for legitimate purchases. That'll teach 'em not to pirate.
Oh wait.
RI is also trying to do this. But I insist that the Fed trumps here. The power to tax interstate commerce is reserved exclusively for the Federal Government, not the States.
Wow, that's racist. I didn't say "illegal" immigration, the vast majority of immigrants are legal workers with visas.
You sir are a moron! It is completely disingenuous to call someone racist because they bring up illegal immigration!
Very true. Calling anyone who is against uncontrolled illegal immigration "racist" is an excellent way to shut down any real dialog on the subject. You've immediately slandered the other person, and forced him to defend himself on a charge of racism. Doesn't matter if he really is a racist: you can't have a discussion about anything if you open the conversation with such an insult.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Of course they can get welfare. If they can get fake SSNs to get a job, why can't they use those to abuse the welfare system?
you are standing here saying, in effect: "I've got mine, now screw the rest of the world."
Nope. I'm saying, "My ancestors came here legally -- why are today's illegals so special they get to break the rules?" All I ask is that illegal immigrants are made to wait in line like everyone else trying to get into the country -- with no special intermin treatment not afforded to anyone else -- and that the laws on the books are enforced. People who do not respect our laws have no right to become citizens when they are plenty waiting in line who do.
I don't know who you're debating with, but most of the people I talk with who are against "illegal immigrants" actually want loosened immigration restrictions so that a lot of these people who are here illegally can enter legally. I've heard calls for migrant visas and working holiday visas. Some of the most conservative guys I know also want a program to give green cards to foreign students studying science and engineering in the states.
I'm sorry that you live around a bunch of racist fucks, but a lot of people, including myself, want more immigration and less illegal immigration. Hell, at the very least, I'd like to avoid having to wait 200+ days just to bring my fiance in to get married.
If you purchase from iTunes, Apple charges local Taxes. I have no issue paying taxes for purchases that I will use in a taxing district. I live here, so I understand the infrastructure needs.
What package? Oh that's right. The one in which was not read by a G-Damned congressman, yet, voted on? Talk about a leap of faith.
We are soo fucked!
Life is not for the lazy.
That is a key advantage with a sales tax. It is also a benefit of the Fair Tax. Everyone pays the same amount for the items they purchase. In the case of the Fair Tax, if you are a citizen you get a credit back up to a specific income level income level. This helps lower income families who would otherwise pay a proportionate amount of their income for necessities. www.fairtax.org It would also allow us to collect true taxes form Illegal's, as they would be paying, but getting no credits, or Prebates. I find this very interesting. If you buy a $100k home you pay the same percentage (ex: $23k inclusive tax)as someone who buys a $1M home (ex:230k inclusive tax).
I agree with you.
Quit worrying about being fair, and consider your own self interest. Would legalizing current immigrants increase or decrease tax revenue? Would the burden on the state be more or less? These are practical questions, and should carry much more weight than whether or not someone broke the law. Remember, the law is just a means to public good.
I don't know the answer to these questions, and have no specific opinion on immigration policy. It just seemed funny that he complained about all these people who couldn't pay taxes, and in the next sentence complained about not having enough taxes, and he never considered the obvious conclusion.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Instead of trying to raise taxes it would be far more sensible to shrink government excesses to help cover the shortfall. For example, it *costs* the taxpayer a lot of money to enforce laws like trans fat bans ... even apart from the ideological arguments, simple pragmatics suggests that in the current economic climate you look for areas to lower costs, i.e. ask yourself why you're spending that money and if you can't really justify it, do away with that expenditure.
Most download taxes that are based on "what" rather than "how much" you download are unconstitutional, for the same reason a tax targeting pornography is unconstitutional:
It is a content-based tax. Content-based taxes discriminate against certain kinds of (disfavored) content, and First Amendment law is well established on the point that content-based taxes are a no-no.
You can tax goods and services, but your taxes must be structured in such a way that they do not discriminate against content. You may tax paper and DVD stock, or you may tax all sales, but you can not tax just books but not movies, or just magazines but not books, or only pornographic movies and magazines but not Time and Newsweek.
In the context of a download tax, the only possibly permissible way it could work is by-the-bit (or other unit of arbitrary measure). You have to tax email exactly the same as web pages exactly the same as software downloads exactly the same as movies from Netflix. To do anything else introduces an impermissible content-based discrimination (along with the impossibility of measuring what you're taxing).
And while lawmakers may not want to target pornography because it might "legitimize" the product, they fail to realize that adult content purveyors have decades of experience fighting this sort of nonsense in jurisdictions all over the nation, and on this point, they consistently win.
Remove the caps and hold to a mirror.
My ancestors invaded this country, conquered its people, slaughtered its men, and raped its women. Why shouldn't today's immigrants do the same?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Have you tried asking the Tax Foundation? They have contact information on their website.
I wonder if this will include taxing downloads that transit various internet assets located within the state... i.e. a customer in PA downloads a song from a provider in ME, but the data transits a router in New York. Technically, NY could go after it, I suppose...
I guess you don't charge the visitors of your webite, do you? 4% of nothing is still nothing.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Officials and their employees NEED TO LEARN TO LIVE within the means imposed by budgets. If they can't then they need to be FIRST in line to take a pay cut. Every frackin' business that starts up, even teenages selling lemonade, have to endure myriad laws, rules, regulations, ordinances, taxes, fees, fines...
Why don't they quit the fiction of the power of money and print currency to provide pubic work and print separate currency to promote commerce between non-government parties?
Oh, i know why, because it will QUICKLY cause long-overdue insurrection or incite coups when the public realizes they bought a bill of goods that is really a pyramid scheme to let government and wealthy oligarch suppress the people on the bottom... A "supercurrency" could somehow be pegged to the "non-government" currency.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
"My ancestors came here legally [...]"
Unless you are of what's considered Native American offspring I am fully convinced quite a lot of people would contest your claim.
Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
Of course, this coming from a state where they will penalize you with tax for driving a car that consumes too much gas, AND ALSO TAX YOU FOR DRIVING A CAR THAT USES TOO LITTLE!!!!!!
Talk about an incentive to get rid of your older car.....no wait they tax you too for driving something that is too old! I have to move to Dubai very soon!
Do you have to pay property tax on apartments in TN? Because I'm reasonably sure that most illegals don't/can't OWN property.
My self-interest is in a nation based on law and order. The reason we have laws, such as immigration laws, is for the public good. We need to know who is trying to enter the country and why. The number of crimes committed by illegal immigrants (especially sex crimes) is staggering. Some who have been deported numerous times simply re-cross the border to offend time and time again.
I have absolutely zero problem with legal immigrants coming from whatever country and adding to our labor pool and tax base. Immigrants are definitely a necessary and helpful part of our nation, whether they're coming for school or to provide a better life for their family.
Illegal immigrants bring crime, disease, and a total disrespect for the laws of our country. They're the sort we definitely do not need here, whatever their country of origin.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
It's about time. The internet marketplace has had enough time to grow. Taxes are what keeps society running. If we dry up those sources of revenue, we see services cut and infrastructure begin to crumble. We had a rather dramatic example of the latter recently here in Minnesota.
People should be paying their taxes. It's your responsibility for being part of society.
Duh, no, you're right! Apartment building owners *don't* have to pay property taxes in TN! Especially if they're renting to illegals. And, if they do have to pay property taxes, like in other states, it doesn't come out of the rent money. Can you believe that? They are allowed to print their own money (using a color copier) to pay the property taxes in that case. Just to make sure Mexicans pay absolutely no taxes.
Good catch, dude, surprised I didn't notice it when I was posting!
Do you have ESP?
If this keeps up, you'll simply speed up the death of all brick and mortar stores and further kill your dwindling retail markets.
Following this to the logical conclusion, if the Brick and Mortar stores are doomed, there will be NO stores left to tax. Taxation will HAVE to come from the online stores. More likely, there will be some ratio of online business to traditional store-front business. Lets say it settles out at 80%. Are the tax collectors ever going to be satisfied with a 20% cut of the sales pie? I don't think so.