Slashdot Mirror
Valve Claims New Steamworks Update "Makes DRM Obsolete"
Lulfas writes "Steam is implementing a new anti-piracy solution that, according to them, removes all DRM. Called Computer Executable Generation (CEG), this system creates a unique copy of the game when it is purchased through Steam, essentially using a 100% unique keygen system. It will be installable on any system, but only playable by one person at a time (hooked into the correct Steam account, of course). Will this be enough to satisfy anti-DRM players while at the same time giving the publishing companies what they require?"
You don't buy games, you rent them. No more servers = game won't start.
I'm not buying ANYTHING from them, not to mention the fact that it's for Windows only.
I don't think this will work. Hell they banned my account because they saw 4 different IP's logging in to the account (one from ohio, one from mississippi, one from germany, and one from PA)...of course they didn't take into account that I'm Active duty military...fuck steam
If the solution does not jack up the price of the program and the industry buys into it instead of getting bent out of shape over it.
First rule of holes; When in one, stop digging.
In what sense is this not DRM?
...for now.
Valve Claims New Steamworks Update "Makes DRM Obsolete"...for now.
Le sigh.
Sent from your iPad.
People Hate DRM not because of how it works, but what it does. If this new system makes moving the game to an new computer a pain, it will still piss people off.
-Taylor
Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
So now I can have two games that constantly refuse to run because they insist i'm still logged in after their own updater does it's job.
I have a little more faith in valve than I do GPG not to screw this up but it still sounds pretty heavy handed.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
My only problem with this is that it would seem that they would have to require an active internet connection for playing the game. What if I want to play a game on my laptop while traveling or what if my internet connection is down at home?
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
I'm pretty much done with Steam regardless. The shiny has worn off & I like my game boxes sitting on the bookshelf.
There is a war going on for your mind.
This could apply to many things, actually. It doesn't have to be just games.
This isn't technically DRM, but it does what DRM has aimed to do while being amazingly clever.
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
That may be a saner DRM, but it's still DRM.
If you're going to sell a service, then sell a service. Don't sell software and try to control it like a service.
Can I sell it?
If Steam goes down, can I still play?
Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
Presumably you need to be online each time you play in order to validate, otherwise it's just as hackable as any other local content. So that would mean that you could not play those games while offline, as Steam currently allows. That makes this mechanism more restrictive for the user from what I can tell.
Jhyrryl
If it does then it's a bug in wine. It'll be fixed and then wine will be better.
if you "buy" a game from Steam, they own your game and not you. You are the one who has to request access to play the game(or to play in offline mode) and a ban can screw up your "purchased" game library.
If you want to have some games, do NOT go to Steam.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
I bought the game, I own the media. I should NOT have to connect to the internet, download a client, download whatever updates it deems are necessary. Maybe there's some cheesy exploit I like in the FPS I'm playing alone? You got my money - leave me alone!
It was really frustrating when I was between broadband watching Steam try to download huge updates so I could play the game I bought specifically so I'd have the media and wouldn't need to download anything. Naive me, assuming you can actually play a game you own the discs to.
PS - how is this not DRM?
- The files are encrypted with a 'unique' key
- Steam acts as the DRM license server
- Any attempt to play the game without access to Steam the new DRM license server will fail
- You access or validate the game by a user/login combo
- If Steam ever goes away, has server/capacity issues (which they have, when new games are released) you are shit out of luck to play the game you PAID for
The _only_ current difference I can see is that you can 'transfer' it between PCs and play it. Guess what - you could do that with DRM as well, albeit laboriously and somewhat error prone. Most services even allow you several "free" additional downloads that give you another license.
It's so similar to DRM that this is just a lame publicity stunt.
...require an active, always-on internet connection? Steam can be run in "offline mode" on a computer that is not connected to the internet. I do that all the time.
Of course, you still need to hook your computer up the internet to download the games in the first place, or when the program randomly decides that it wants to do so (which seems to be about once a month or so for me). I'm not sure what triggers it- a certain time period with no connection, sunspots, gnomes... In any case, I just plug in the ethernet cable, log in, log back out, unplug the cable, and start the game.
Steam servers go down frequently, in my experience. This means I won't be able to use the software I purchased.
We are talking about entertainment software, so nobody's gonna die. But it is damn frustrating when you buy a game and can't play it because Steam's activation server is offline for hours at a time.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
So... it removes the need for current DRM schemes like "CD-in-drive", "CD-key", and "X number of installs".
But it fortifies the DRM scheme that Steam already employs, the "one game copy per server account" by allowing Valve to determine exactly which copy belongs to which account. This doesn't give anything new to the user, but makes it really easy for Valve to look at a illegal copy distributed on the internet and say "Oh, this belongs to MrX. Banned."
So it doesn't really obsolete DRM... just other versions that users generally hate. The reason this is news is that it might be a compelling enough reason for bigger developers to use SteamWorks, since it gives them the same power they think they get in other DRM schemes.
But this is pure marketing BS. They are making DRM obsolete by... using DRM! Plus, this is exactly the same scheme of DRM that is already in use: Encrypt a program and then only decrypt it when provided a valid key. Then provide the key, thus completely negating the point of encrypting the program. After all, Steam has to unpack the executable to run it, and at that point all a black hatter has to do is come up with a way to snatch the decrypted version during that.
This is SecureROM 2.0. The only difference is instead of a 'unique, unduplicateable, ID per CD' it's now a 'unique, unduplicateable, ID per account'.
On the other hand, since I am a Steam fanboi, I hope this particular marking BS manages to convince more publishers to go this route rather than the SecureROM/CD route. Being able to redownload a game whenever I want to install it, wherever I want to install it, is far better than "opps, your machine crashed twice so now your CD is worthless because you only had two installs allowed".
I couldn't help noticing Steam's press release contained the line: "Headlining the new feature set is the Custom Executable Generation (CEG) technology that compliments the already existing anti-piracy solution offered in Steamworks."
It warms the heart to know that a big company like Steam still takes the time and effort to make sure their old software feels good about itself!
When someone says, "Any fool can see
As soon as the rabid "It's still DRM" crowd either
a) Get's over their kneejerk reaction
b) Get's ignored since they don't buy games anyway
c) Get's distracted by the next Sony DRM debacle
people will realize that this is exactly what the industry needs. MMO's don't have (much) of a piracy problem, but game developers that want to just sell software need help. DRM has failed not because the concept is flawed, it's not, but because the implementations have been silly. The idea that you can create a procedure and have it work without change forever is simply a waste of money. I can already think of several methods of lying to this kind of system, but Steam makes things harder just by combining a form of file check along with a log on to a remote server. To "lie" you will have to convince Steam that are a registered user, have permission to run the game you want to pirate, and your file(s) matches the CRC or other check they do. Once someone figures that out, or even _gasp_ before, they can add another check (or set of checks) to make things more difficult.
Many imperfect walls > 1 (supposedly) perfect one
How is this different from those music company DRM systems where you can't play your music if they go out business? If Steam goes out of business, can I still play the game I bought?
I have a feeling the answer is no.
Awesome. You get modded insightful for your, ahem, less than fully educated post.
First off, steam can be run in offline mode. You don't need servers to play your fusking game. You can play offline, LAN, do whatever you want.
Second, Gabe himself said that if steam were ever to go down, he would remove any and all restrictions from playing your game, without the steam servers.
Become educated instead of braying along with the masses. Its cool.
Hi, I Boris. Hear fix bear, yes?
at least until some clever pirates think about the fact that the code should be unencrypted in memory and you only need two steam account to compare where the 'unique ID' is...
Those DRM warriors should start thinking that the guys who break their systems aren't teenagers with too much spare time. They do what they do for money (possibly for more money than the developers get) and while valve have to make a system that works for everyone, pirates only have to find ONE flaw to get the game cracked.
I think we're about to have a pissed off Linux community if so.
When, exactly, is the linux community NOT pissed off about something?
Does that refer to the pathetically broken L4D process whereby one clicks:
Then one repeats five or six times until one finally gets matched with a game that isn't full?
That is one of the worst systems I've ever used.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
What he said is not legally binding. There's nothing backing it up. It's just hot air until then.
Running steam in offline mode is also not the same. A perpetually usable backup you can make yourself and never, ever have to use Steam in any way ever again? Impossible. So no, it doesn't count.
Second, Gabe himself said that if steam were ever to go down, he would remove any and all restrictions from playing your game, without the steam servers.
Pardon me if I don't believe the promises of a man who isn't fully in control of what may happen in the future. He may intend to do that, but that doesn't mean it will, in fact, be done.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Oxymoron of the day: "unique copy"
This is not technically the normal DRM ... Since you do not have the key and the lock as you normally have in DRM (which is why it is pointless) you just have the key ... the lock is back at Steam
Puteulanus fenestra mortis
Gabe's pledge is a beautiful thing, until Gabe leaves / is removed from Valve and his pledge exits with him.
ShoutingMan.com
So what stops hackers from tracing the binaries to find out where it checks in to Steam, and replacing a whole lot of code with NOPs?
Well, obviously it's a step forward but not enough, it's still an evolution of the annoying restrictive use of owned software/game.
Even if this sounds better than actual DRM, I will NOT buy anything that gives me restrictions in any way.
You should try a console system. All of the games include a game disk, box, and an instruction book.
What did I do wrong? My copies of Dr. Mario Online Rx and Tetris Party from Wii Shop Channel came with only an electronic manual.
Long before the servers are gone, someone will have sniffed the key, decrypted it, and created a dummy server that replies to the games when they call for the key, and provides the key for them...
I've got a sony walkman, it has drm. It's now a pain in the arse to use because sony took the auth service offline without giving a complete fix to that act.
Another point of failure to worry about - but compared to crap like STARFORCE much more acceptable.
I check games carefully before purchasing them now and avoid all those that require the use of the Steam service. This comes after purchasing a few games that became unusable after a few weeks (or less than a day) with errors about invalid serial numbers. Perhaps region coding incompatible with my Geographically Canadian IP, perhaps the misfortune of matching with one of the warez distributions or key-gens. But all unresolvable without me delivering images of the retail receipt and manual / number card to Steam. As there is no reason to save the receipt for software purchase as opened packages are non-returnable, this was impossible.
Individually cryptographically signed executables is absolutely DRM. It, like every other copy-protection scheme, will only be relevant for online play, or if single player games require a handshake with some server system before use. (Which would limit their lifespan.) The best way to discourage piracy is to lower prices. You may not reduce the number of unlicensed copies around the world, but you will assuredly increase the number of customers you have.
Oh no! The linux steam gamers are mad! all seven of them!
The three mac gamers will be snickering though
Valve isn't a publicly traded company, so he can't forcefully be removed from office unless they're bought out (unless there's some part of business law I'm terribly missing). Now if EA bought them, I'd have a lot more concern..
First off, steam can be run in offline mode. You don't need servers to play your fusking game. You can play offline, LAN, do whatever you want.
Last time I tried, HL2 ep. 2 wouldn't load in offline-mode because... it needed internet access. Valve couldn't just disable achievements in offline mode? Apparently not.
at least until some clever pirates think about the fact that the code should be unencrypted in memory
Not necessarily. A binary can be made unique through metamorphic transformations that change the SHA-256 of the code but not its sense. For example, replace (x ^= x) with (x = 0), or (x += 5) with (x -= (-5)), or switch what registers hold what variables, etc. Then the keygen can include this SHA-256 value as an argument.
It will be installable on any system, but only playable by one person at a time (hooked into the correct Steam account, of course). Will this be enough to satisfy anti-DRM players while at the same time giving the publishing companies what they require?"
They might as well keep DRM, the new system is pretty much the same thing.
I am still a slave to STEAM.
1) If I don't have STEAM on my other computer I can not play it.
2) If I am not connected to the Internet with my other computer I can not play it.
3) If Valve goes belly up I can no longer play my games
Not going to happen, keep your games and your online validation / DRM shit. I will only purchase games without it or none at all.
Everyone who buys Wild Hunt will receive 16 specially prepared DLCs absolutely for free, regardless of platform.
What about private servers? A lot of people download MMO clients and play on homebrew servers for a whole bunch of different MMOs. Not only do they have people stealing the actual game, they're not getting a monthly subscription from 'em. Granted, the client has to deal with laggy and somewhat sparse worlds, but you get my point. ...But the rest of what you said was good. :P
MMO's have just as much as a problem with piracy.
Again, Gabe has control over EVER SINGLE game sold on steam and what can be done with it? So that means he approved using secureROM in bioshock on steam and he has the power to remove it?
I'll buy he has say in what happens to valve property, but not the hundreds of other games sold on steam.
Also, when connected to the internet, how long will steam let you stay in offline mode? Can I authorize once and never connect again? Last I checked it forces you to talk back every now and then.
Will this be enough to satisfy anti-DRM players...?
The simple answer to this stupid question is another question: Will it work as well as cracked games?
That's all anyone wants. For the solution to be superior (in the customer's eyes) to the problem (in the company's eyes). It's called customer service. Sell a better product, win. Sell a worse product, lose.
Also, two plus two equals four. (I figure if you didn't already know the "sell good product, win" part, you might not know the answer to that age-old mathematics riddle)
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
First off, steam can be run in offline mode.
No, it really can't. Well, not in Windows Vista, anyway. Back when I had Steam, I tried many times to start it without a network connection, and never once did it work. Ever.
In what operating system does Steam run in offline mode?
Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
... which is a biggy... if the digital stenography will be good, valve/steam will know exactly who created an illegal version of their software.
*exactly*
It will be installable on any system, but only playable by one person at a time
So then what will I do when I have friends over? I don't want to have to buy extra PCs and extra copies of every game that I want to play.
There's tellings that at some point in the future there will be a holy year, with furniture, and all will be well. If and when this will occur is controversial however.
But I want to eat cookies all the time! I want to do it!!
I see you and Gabe have a lot more in common than you think!
I'm not buying ANYTHING from them, not to mention the fact that it's for Windows only.
You say that like there's games out there that run on anything other then windows.
None of these games are for Windows: Super Mario Galaxy, any Super Smash Bros. game, any Animal Crossing game, any Mario Kart game...
I still can't play my half life 2 because my steam account is tied to an old email address that doesn't exist.
fuck them
'nuff said
Why can't that change with this system? Going forward why can't steam user authentication become more global, and let the game instances they create be the key. Aren't they losing out on parents with minors and other LAN or NAT situations with those restrictions? idk, I've never used it myself, not an avid gamer. It just sounds silly to me that they wouldn't.
Walk with Music;
DRM by any other name is still just a big STEAMing turd.
I see what you did there.
Will this be enough to satisfy anti-DRM players?
So what they are saying is that they don't call it DRM any more, but it is still DRM and still requires connecting to Steam to play the game, and they want to know if that will satisfy those who object to DRM? As far as I'm concerned, absolutely not.
Let me say first of all, that I have used Steam. I was forced into using it when I tried to reinstall my perfectly legal copy of Half-Life (that didn't use Steam when I bought it) and play on-line. Overall the experience went OK. I even got a copy of "Blue Shift" out of the deal, which was not part of my original Half-Life package. And I've used Steam for a few demos' such as the Bio-Shock demo.
But I've also refused to buy any game that would require me to use Steam. At ANY price, even some otherwise very attractive Steam prices. I simply will not buy into DRM, and certainly not in this form that requires me to connect to a website to use a product that I "own". I certainly would have purchased Portal if it was DRM free (and did play the Steam powered Portal Demo). But I'm not going to buy any software that depends on DRM and the existence of a third party for me to be able to continue to use the program.
While DRM itself is a problem for many users, just calling it something else doesn't fix the issue and is an added insult to the intelligence of the customer. I'm never going to buy any software that depends on a third party to continue to exist for me to be able to use it. If Steam should go under and no longer operate their website, I have no intention to be stuck with hundreds of dollars worth of games that I can't play or reinstall, and to those who do get burned I can only offer the advice of the great philosophers Nelson and Mr. T. And while I've never resld a video game and don't expect that I ever will, I refuse to give up my right of first sale on such a product just because some company like Steam wants a cut of the profits and is willing to help publishers prevent the honest resale trade.
To those fools who say that Steam is too big to go under, did you think that about Circuit City too? Did you think that about the large banks (some of who have) and about AIG? Do you expect that Obama will think bailing out Steam is as important as bailing out Wall Street, and that the federal government will be in any shape to do it after he is finished with the destruction of the economy that Bush started? Any company can fail, and buying a product that depends on someone else's continued existence to keep using it is very foolish. And, of course, it promotes the system. People need to continue to say "NO" to DRM in all of it's forms.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
When they're getting laid.
Oh, crap, I see your point.
500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
Become educated instead of braying along with the masses. Its cool.
Try it yourself.
Steam can be run in offline mode, yes, but networkable games cannot access the Internet when Steam is in offline mode. That is not "do whatever you want", it is DRM.
Yes, Gabe said that, but when the day comes he'll have no incentive to do so. He might not even have the money to push the patch out.
Yes, you can. I commonly play SP games on my laptop during my travel, in offline mode. I have no experience with Vista, but XP it works fine. I've never once had a problem. I'm not aware of any "call home" functionality, or limited offline time limits. In fact, I used to play CS:source without steam. There used to be some command line jargon you fed it, and it started just fine.
Even better, I have one steam account, and its installed on many computers. I can play whenever I want, wherever I want. On whatever computer I want. As long as I want. With or without internet connection. I bought it. Its mine. There are no CD rom checks, no version issues regarding online play. I can sell my steam account to anybody. I can backup my games and offsite them.
If that is DRM, then the definition is lost on me.
Hi, I Boris. Hear fix bear, yes?
Everyone is forgetting that Steam has an "Offline Mode" which you can keep Steam in pretty much permanently and which will allow you to run your games without having to connect to an update server, without having to verify each time the game loads up, etc.
Offline Mode works remarkably well in fact and I would suspect that in the event Steam were to go belly up it would be a rather simple matter to distribute a kill switch across all clients which would simply skip the verification process.
the board of directors can always vote to remove anyone from office -- including the CEO.
even if the CEO turns out to be a minority shareholder.
Traditional DRM meant the disk was protected, but I could still install it and play it on any computer in my house.
I could install it on an unconnected laptop at the cottage and play...
This is one of those totally dependant on the DRM servers, type DRM. It is even worse IMO.
This is game rental, not purchase.
Well DUH. My patience is getting cut short. How are you supposed to play an Internet online game, without the Internet in the first place, that your steam account can connect to!!??!
Oh, let me guess, you'd prefer your own little island. Come and go as you please. Well, welcome to version hell my friend. Are you sure your client version is sync'd with server version? Or is there any method of banning hackers besides IP? (hacker jumps server, or changes computer, IP rotates etc)
I'm not saying its perfect, and I'm not a fanboy. I've had my own fair of troubles with it. I'm just saying, for the parent to spout off about steam not being playable under whatever circumstances he/she listed, is ignorant.
Hi, I Boris. Hear fix bear, yes?
1. Impose an idea that is ten times as ridiculous to widespread protestation.
2. Wait a few years.
3. Propose your original idea as a less ridiculous alternative.
4. Bask in public adoration.
Aren't they losing out on parents with minors and other LAN or NAT situations with those restrictions?
A lot of PC games tend to be first-person shooters, which tend to be rated M for mature, or pay-to-play massively multiplayer online games, which require a grown-up's credit card. Many of the games designed to be played by minors are either on consoles or on SWF sites (e.g. neopets.com).
Are you going to travel back in time and punch him in the face?
I prefer products which I KNOW will work in the future. You know, like physical DVDs with no on-line authentication.
In addition, I like products which let me choose whether to update them, and which do not monitor my use of them and send it back to corporate HQ for "statistical purposes".
This is why I will never, ever use Steam again for a non-online game (I used it for HL2, and that was enough for me).
Read Pynchon.
All they're doing is embedding the cryptographic token in the executable code instead of a hidden magic file or key.
I can think of half a dozen approaches they could be using, but they all end up in the same place... the program starts up, examines its code in memory, extracts some kind of loader-independent key (eg, a checksum of specific code segments) that gets exchanged with the server to validate the account.
They will still need the same background anti-cheating software (so-called rootkits), because eventually people will figure out the token and patch the extraction code, and they'll be back where they started.
This scheme seems to me very similar to audio/video watermarking, combined with on-line check how many copies with the same watermark are played at one time. The on-line check part seems to me very DRM-ish, but the watermarking part seems to be quite reasonable.
You're right, it's what the industry needs, not what consumers need.
DRM has failed not because the concept is flawed, it's not, but because the implementations have been silly.
Actually, DRM was doing fine for many years when all it involved was having a CD/DVD in a disc drive. Although philosophically it was objectionable, it was still relatively unintrustive and worked 100% of the time.
DRM is failing now because of the outrageously intrusive to borderline illegal approaches now being pushed by these companies. Including mandatory on-line authentication and monitoring of use, which is exactly what Steam is.
Read Pynchon.
I think this is a great system. I buy steam games. I sometimes install them on my laptop, but generally I play them on my PC. When I want to uninstall and re-install them on any computer, I will still be the only person using them. I even bought a second copy of Left 4 Dead for my wife (she's practicing for the zombie apocalypse).
as long as I can install the game 2 years down the road or even 5 years, I'm ok.
also, Steam really needs to work on their account security policies and procedures.
an RSA keyfob for login wouldn't hurt.
They're using their grammar skills there.
Instead of the key being stored in the low bits of N random data files and X registry keys, it's stored in something like the unused bits of N+X opcodes in the executable, or the order of M library routines, or something similar. They still have to keep all the same code in place to make sure you haven't patched the executable or patched the code that extracts the key to authenticate with the server, so it will still freak out if you're using some display tweak that patches the kernel, and you'll still be boned if your account is compromised, and you'll still have to buy the White Album again when they get tired of maintaining the authentication servers for the old versions of the game, ... all the same problems that any other DRM scheme has.
What's the advantage?
Awesome. You get modded informative for your, ahem, less than fully educated post.
First off, steam has issues running in offline mode. Even with the box ticked it randomly requires authentication. You can't play offline, LAN, do whatever you want.
Second, Gabe himself is well meaning and wants sales, but that doesn't mean he will always have control of steam.
Become educated instead of braying along with the masses. Its cool.
If such a way to remove restrictions existed, I am surprised it has not been activated by an (ahem) third party.
"In the absence of the ability to establish the attribute of truth they tried to establish the noble attributes."
A bunch of people with a common mental handicap isn't exactly a "community".
Actually, it does work in offline mode.
I had a few purchases sitting on my Vista desktop. When some jackass cut the cable line (for some dumb reason, they didn't bury my cable line -- they left it laying on the ground, and maintenance, when cutting the grass, ran it over), leaving me without internet for a week, I sat there, playing Audiosurf with very little issue. I just needed to unplug the cable, or disable the ethernet adapter, since Steam saw my router, and kept trying to reach out to touch itself.
Boy, was that a good weekend of flashing lights and seizures.
One of these days, I am going to flip out. When I flip out, I'll be back in five minutes.
Since the lot of you seem to be philosophizing on a goddamned press release, and an article about the press release, here's something with at least a little more info: http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/SteamWorksBrochure2009.pdf
3rd page confirms most of what I was thinking. So really they're just strengthening their existing paradigm of 'one user, any machine.' Which I'm perfectly OK with, because if they can draw more publishers into that line of thinking, it keeps us away from the Bioshock debacle and other similar issues.
I have to laugh, though, at their attempts across the page to describe Left4Dead's matchmaking as 'Quick and Accurate.'
I have the right to sell my copy of what I have bought to someone else.
And what happens 5 years from now when I try to play the game and the steam servers the program is looking for is no longer around?
What happens if I want to play offline in a remote desert area?
What happens if we go into full scale society collapse and the internet goes away? Can I still play my installed games then?
If not, I am going to be pissed.
Let me make this very simple for you:
DRM is any digital measure that attempts to stop piracy by restricting what you can do.
Whether or not it's acceptable DRM is a different question. I have Steam, and I consider it an acceptable trade.
But put another way, this is like claiming an iPod sold for $20 is "free", or has "no cost". Bullshit! It cost you $20! You may consider that to be more than fair price, considering what iPods usually go for, but it is in no sense free.
Now, someone else has pointed out that it may instead be a watermark system. Here, we could have a lively debate -- I consider a watermark to not be DRM, because it actually doesn't restrict you from doing anything. Others consider a watermark to be DRM, because it is a potential privacy hazard, and possible to abuse -- for instance, depending on the watermark scheme used, someone may be able to replace their details with someone else's, thus framing someone else for the piracy.
However, nothing in the press release suggests that this is a watermark instead of Steam's built-in DRM. Instead, it says quite clearly:
Headlining the new feature set is the Custom Executable Generation (CEG) technology that compliments the already existing anti-piracy solution offered in Steamworks.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
> Valve isn't a publicly traded company, so he can't forcefully be removed from office unless they're bought out (unless there's some part of business law I'm terribly missing). Now if EA bought them, I'd have a lot more concern..
Does he have permission from the other developers whose games Steam distributes to remove DRM from their games?
Does he have a working no-DRM patch ready? Or do you suppose that any event which causes the company to go belly-up will leave them with enough time, money and developers to make, test and distribute a no-DRM patch for all their games?
Also, given that we're assuming the company would have to go bankrupt or otherwise cease to exist in order to trigger this clause, do you think that management can't get replaced during bankruptcy? Finally, if the company does last, won't Gabe eventually retire (GP post did say that he could leave willingly as well as retire)?
If they want me to believe in this promise, they need an actual plan to execute it standing ready. Otherwise, the promise is nothing but pretty words. Any event catastrophic enough to trigger that won't leave them with a lot of options. Unless there's a plan already in place, they probably won't be able to keep that promise. Good intentions are great, but utterly meaningless unless they have something in place to back them up.
Most (if not all) of the other games on STEAM will allow you to view and back up the key for them - should STEAM go up in a puff, then simply use the key you already have to install from other media *cough*Bittorrent*cough*
First off, steam can be run in offline mode. You don't need servers to play your fusking game. You can play offline, LAN, do whatever you want.
Tell you what, how about you try to play a game in offline mode without ever having connected to steam's servers first. Guess what? You can't!
Steam's "offline" mode only works when you have first logged onto their servers and verified all your games. In order to use it, you have to connect via the steam client at least once every time you start up your computer. Otherwise, you don't get to play.
So yes, you do have to have access to their servers to play your game, even if it's only single player and you play it in offline mode.
Might want to get your own facts straight before you start swearing at other people about theirs.
Or he could, let's say, you know... die or something. That would also make it possible for someone else to control the future of Valve.
Presumably, he could still leave instructions to ensure his wishes are carried out.
Or he could simply rise from the dead as a zombie to enforce his will. However, there may be some uh... issues... in that event.
So, there are no guarantees he can make about the future. Many good intentioned people in the past have tried to do similar things, only to be thwarted as soon as they were no longer present.
I think your real issue is going to be whether you want to play that game longer than you think that Steam will be viable. Right now, its not a bad bet. Future games? Who knows?
Pretty sure you get an actual key for Bioshock and other third-party games that could be used with a retail disc. I know you do for UT3.
I think offline mode works for something like a month or so and can be extended, though I haven't used it for that long.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
Maybe if that's your objection, you should rave against pharmaceutical companies; since they operate the same way, and not getting a drug can have a significantly bigger impact on life than not getting a game.
Says a guy named "PornMaster."
This is the reason I trust nothing that I can't contiunue to run in the state it is now.I can always keep my current wine release if wine breaks something, or reinstall without the patch if a patch breaks something on an offline game, but I learned not to trust things with mandatory patches from an MMO I paid a year subscription to when three months in they patched it out of compatability with wine.
Uh, yes it can. I'm not sure what your problem is, but I definitely have been able to run Steam offline in Vista.
All your base are belong to Wii.
You, sir, deserve them.
Slashdot is kind of like Playboy; we aren't here to read the articles.
If your only remaining fear of Steam is bricking, I would probably just get over it and come to the dark side. I have been playing video games since Zork. Do you know how many video games I have lost or destroyed along that path? I sure as hell don't have my original Doom CD sitting around somewhere. I weep over my loss of my Master of Orion 2 CD. I don't even have my original Half Life CD.
The difference of course is that I can still play Half Life because it is on Steam... I can't play Master of Orion 2.
Sure, Steam might one day die. Valve promised to unlock the games if they should ever die. Is that an ironclad agreement? Nah, but in truth, even if they brick my Steam account when they die and no one buys it up to continue offering the service, I'll still have called it a fair trade. Solid media is too easy to lose or break, and cracking DRM to making multiple backups is frankly a waste of time.
I personally call Steam a fare deal. If one day it dies, those games might possibly be bricked. What I get in return is painless instillation of games when I move computers, an easy way to get new games, and none of the hassle of physical media in terms of storage space or breakage. I personally like a world with Steam much better than loading my computer up with crippleware from physical media.
Valve isn't a publicly traded company, so he can't forcefully be removed from office unless they're bought out (unless there's some part of business law I'm terribly missing).
Well obviously they can go bankrupt and he's probably still as vulnerable to accidents as everyone else too. Leaving those aside, have you actually checked a list of their shareholders? Not being publicly traded does not mean the same as being majority controlled by whoever you'd like to think it's majority controlled by. No venture capitalists, for example?
Valve isn't a publicly traded company
Fail reading comprehension? If you open a shop your workers can't vote to evict you.
Nick
Yeah because we know Valve has done a lot to fuck customers over through out the years unlike all other game companies.
I'm confident something is in place already and it'll be a matter of flipping a switch so yes he's probably quite capable of doing it.
Second, Gabe himself said that if steam were ever to go down, he would remove any and all restrictions from playing your game, without the steam servers.
Where? I've honestly tried to find the source for that in the past but come up blank.
Plus, that's not a promise he can give for non-Valve games. If the receivers get called in, it won't be a promise he can honour for Valve games either.
I buy games on Steam because it's convenient and just as easy to crack as physical media (should I need to for any reason - Steam means I don't really need to tho). I don't delude myself about what I'm getting in to, however.
Nick
How is this not DRM?
When I buy a game through Steam and install it, I can only play when I'm logged into my Steam account. I can re-download the game onto multiple computers and hop between them at will, logging into steam on each system to play. I already do this between my main PC, my work PC, my wife's laptop, and my in-laws PC in another city.
What is different here?
I wonder how many people on slashdot are telling the truth, and how representative it is of the online geek 'community'.
Because there's an awful lot of righteous "I buy all my games/media/sex toys and I never pirate them" folks loudly proclaiming their moral superiority..... which is most unlike most geeks I know (myself included)
Please, Lets all agree right now to never buy anything with any kind of DRM in it.
Its the only way we can finally end this absurd situation.
There is never a justifiable reason why we have to seek and depend on a complete stranger's arbitrary permission to use and keep the value of our own legally purchased possessions.
So now any MMO is DRM because you cannot play online without the server??
This is nothing special. All they're doing is embedding the key into the executable. It is no different from the numerous application vendors who bake the license into the executable, or web apps with obfuscated booby-trapped code.
The only thing Steam invented is the name. Everything else is old-hat and more of the same nonsense. The only reason they receive less hate than all the others is because they don't impose any limits on how often you can download the products you bought. That's it! That's the only difference... DigitalRiver did it way back, and they had a 7-day window for downloads, after which you were SOL. Steam kept all the bad things, but got rid of the time restriction, and somehow that makes them selfless gods ? I don't think so.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
I still can't play my half life 2 because my CDs are stuck in a box that in some land fill
fuck them
'nuff said
========
Don't lose your physical media, don't lose your virtual media.
Here's what I really like about Steam:
- I can move computers or reinstall as I wish. I can play a game "delete" it, and later on, reinstall it - just load the main game file and go. No install and reinstall idiocy. If I need to clear up some HD space, I can delete the game main game file in a few seconds and poof - 4 or 5 gigs free.
If I have to reinstall my OS, I don't have to play CD or DVD shuffling and look for CD keys and other idiocy. I just install the steam client, validate, and hit "stun" and let it d/l all 40-50 gigs of junk overnight. Note - you can also back up your steam apps directory and toss the compressed files back in with a reinstalled OS. It'll check and validate and you're good to go. With DVDs, you're SOL - because it has to do all sorts of tweaking and stuff with the registry. Steam does this for you. Nice.
- None of UbiSoft's or EA or Sony's malware DRM rootkits. I'd rather have one app that checks to see if I'm who I am(perfectly reasonable, IMO). No CD crippling software, no nonsense that mangles my DirectX. In fact, I'll only buy games from those three PITA companies when it comes out on Steam.
- Updating and patches and support is quick - often in hours or days to fix loading bugs and sound issues. Patches the game for you, as well. Always up to date if you wish.
- As easy as Direct2Drive(another company I also like) to order and buy from. Good prices, too. Often better than the local game store, due to nearly daily promotions and specials. No boxes cluttering up my desk, either. Case in point - last night, Assassin's Creed was a paltry $10. Latest director's cut version, all the goodies. Just buy, D/L, and run an hour later.
- Loads of older games that were impossible to run on Vista from the W2K/W98 era. Many are well worth playing, even today.
- Movie trailers and so on are MUCH easier to manage and less spammy than the major websites and places like Apple. HD trailers are a snap as well to d/l and clearly tell you the resolution and quality up front. Having to watch a trailer online in a little box at most sites is a major hassle.
Cons:
- It sits in the background and hogs resources. Impossible to play even HL via Steam versus the original standalone boxed game cleanly unless you have a dual core processor. My old P3 could run HL1 without stuttering. My P4 couldn't. My dual-core now is fine, but really...
- Many AV and Net monitoring/firewall apps just have a fit with it.
- Loads new content and patches and so on sometimes in the background without me ever allowing it.
- Worries about not being able to access my programs. But given the money Valve is making, I suspect it'll be around for at least 10-20 more years.
And does he actually have the authority to remove the restrictions on games belonging to other companies? Do companies have to sign agreements allowing this when they distribute a game on steam? If so, I would be curious to hear about it.
You can't run steam in offline mode unless Steam is up and you're logged in to begin with. If you wake up tomorrow and Valve is gone, then it's too late for your library of now-useless games unless you were already set to play offline-only.
Second, Gabe himself said that if steam were ever to go down, he would remove any and all restrictions from playing your game, without the steam servers.
There are industry standards to ensure such conditions are met. This is called software escrow and they can even ensure an independent third party performs these actions after Steam is no more.
The simple fact is, I've never heard of him placing this software and/or capability or a plan of execution to ensure his plan follows the demise of this company. Until that happens his words are nothing but meaningless dribble which has meaning to only the most ignorant and naive in our society. In short, you have to be pretty naive to take those types of statements at face value.
Is it possible he means what he says? Flip a coin? Is it likely he'll follow through with his statement? Get everyone in the northern hemisphere to jump up and down at the exact same time and then we'll talk. ;) Remember, if his company goes belly up, he may not have servers or even bandwidth available to him to turn off DRM, let alone have these resources on line for a long enough period so as to allow for 100% of the customer base to be freed. So even if he means well, it is practically impossible for him to be even close to ensuring Steam customers are protected. And the only way to ensure this includes software escrow. Until that happens, his statements is for suckers.
To all saying when steam goes down you can't play the games, valve has countlessly said that if 10 years from now they are no longer in existence, they will release a patch witch makes it so your goes DO NOT need steam to run
Hell, Valve ought to be working on getting some Left 4 Dead content out instead of farting around with DRM! They drop in the top list of XBOX Live games each week they delay.
I have a way you can fix DRM. In a game executable, you will have thousands of functions. All you have to do is come up with a system where each person who buys a copy of the game receives a completely unique executable image where the functions come in a certain specific order. That order can be tied somewhat to your name and the credit card you use to buy the game. All of this gets compressed and stored in a database. Then the game developer monitors the w4rez sites and downloads every copy of the game that shows up on them. The executable will identify the culprit who allowed the game to be copied. Busted! An additional benefit is that patches for the executable cannot be distributed.
I'm kind of partial to Steam, but I think that mostly has to do with the continued quality of their games. Oh, wait ... you mean if the developers make money they continue to make good games??? Someone call the press!! ;)
:D
Also, BigJClark, that sig is hilarious. I laughed loud enough to attract unwanted coworker inquiry.
TomB
"You can't take the sky from me..."
I like to mention this every time a game DRM story comes up on Slashdot: There are places out there, like GOG, where you can buy completely DRM-free games. Yes, their selection is composed of older games, but the games are good, the price is great, and it shows the game industry that DRM-free games sell. I have no connection to gog.com - I just like their ideas.
Anyone who learn's grammar know's that apostrophe's s'hould be us'ed as lib'eral'ly as' pos's'i'b''l'''e'''''
I don't actually use steam. But having Steam games tied to your Steam account is WAAAAY better than that *plus* SecuROM, or whatever other crap the game publisher leaves in the game. Most DRM systems try to load code into the kernel, do tricky stuff to avoid debuggers, faked CD-ROMs, etc that is basically non-portable. Windows users usually say "portable? So what!" But in this case, this means it acts up not just with wine, but also with future windows versions, and with oddly configured PCs, all problems that have plagued games past and present that have DRM.
Those who worry about Steam shutting down have a valid point. I don't have a solution to it, but Steam's approach is to get game companies that insist on DRM to allow something lighter; I think (not sure) that game makers DO give the option of no DRM (including Steam's), using Steam strictly to deliver an unrestricted game.
I know the platform is supposed to be functional without internet connection once you have activated your game online.
I remember playing HL2 offline a long time ago - Steam searched for an active connection for *several minutes*, then asked if I wanted to play offline since no connection was found.
Nowadays, however, I seem to be always requiring an active connection in order to play any Steam game, be it multiplayer or singleplayer (=offline) games.
Am I missing something? Additionally, I hate it when steam won't let me decide whether I currently have an active internet connection or not, but instead embarks on its epic quest of searching for the internetz for several minutes. An unnecessary hassle, I shouldn't have to wait that long when I feel like playing some "Empire: Total War" or whatever.
Steam has many advantages over other copy protection systems (infamous Starforce, anyone?), but there are some specific problems as well.
One last rant: I also hate how Steam will "download Steam updates" whenever I start the program. I can't tell for sure, but I have a distinct feeling that most of the time, these "updates" are nothing more than the flashy advertisment popups you have to click away before reaching your games list.
You say that like there's games out there that run on anything other then windows.
None of these games are for Windows: Super Mario Galaxy, any Super Smash Bros. game
Because they're kids games for small children.
MadWorld by Sega definitely isn't for kids, and it's a Wii exclusive.
You know, because you should have to repeatedly prove you did not steal the product you paid for in order to keep using it. At Valve's discretion they will eventually discontinue the "service", leaving you with nothing. Have fun with that.
1. Log in once.
2. Make your ClientRegistry.blob read-only.
3. Never have to log in again.
A system where each user is given a unique key with which to authenticate the game online in order to play?
Sounds familiar...
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
Called Computer Executable Generation (CEG), this system creates a unique copy of the game when it is purchased through Steam, essentially using a 100% unique keygen system. It will be installable on any system, but only playable by one person at a time (hooked into the correct Steam account, of course).
A turd by any other name is still a turd.
You don't need two computers to play a game on steam so your requirement of having steam on your other computer doesn't make sense.
Based on your comment history I seriously doubt that'll be a problem for you.
Yes you will because people play pirated steam games today, right now.
It's possible he had it installed in Program Files. Bad things happen in Vista with stuff trying to write to Program Files with UAC enabled.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
For the last time, piracy is not theft!
Steamworks is not the solution, because as soon as one person cracks CEG, the game is available to anyone in the world for free.
Become educated instead of braying along with the masses.
Sounds like you need to take some of your own advice.
What happens if Valve goes under? Who pays for the time/effort required to create/release these patches that will remove all restrictions from all of their games?
What happens if you decide you no longer want a game and wish to sell it to someone else (which is perfectly legal)? You can't transfer your unique copy to anyone else.
What happens if you want to play one of your online games while your child plays another online game (both of which you have paid for)? You can't.
The best example I know of is the localization of FF8 to Europe removed the word Nunchaku because they are outlawed in most jurisdictions
That has got to be the daftest thing I've heard in a long while. Automatic rifles, rocket launchers etc. are also illegal but I did not see them removing them from Halo. As far as I am aware there is no laws about virtual weapons in a game only in real life.
How is Valve's system any better than what Blizzard does with World of Warcraft? In WoW, everyone needs a monthly paid account to play, and the account can only have one user online at a time.
"First off, steam can be run in offline mode."
Offline mode has never worked in the two years I've used Steam and it's gotten annoying as fuck.
"Second, Gabe himself said that if steam were ever to go down, he would remove any and all restrictions from playing your game, without the steam servers."
Gabe's not a core programmer, so I doubt HE is going to do jack shit. Also, he's not in control of the games - the DEVELOPER is, not the Publisher/Distributor. If they say no, you're fucked.
"Become educated instead of braying along with the masses."
Yea. Take your 7-digit UID and go back to pre-school, child.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Every one of you worthless DRM crybabies needs to choke on a bag of dicks. Just so you know.
Umm, so do I. I'm not aware where else you would install it to. I do have UAC turned off though. But I don't really see what UAC would have to do with offline mode.
All your base are belong to Wii.
How does one get this retail disk if you buy on steam?
Offline Mode creates a binary blob file in the Steam install directory. If it weren't able to do that...
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
I would be very happy to never see DRM again. I've been trying to play an old game from Ubisoft that requires a CD every fraking time it's played. This wouldn't be a problem, except that Ubisoft assumed I'm a criminal and created copy protection so oppressive, it prevents the CD from being recognized by the drive over 95% of the time (no exaggeration). Ironically, if I'd just pirated the game, it would work every time, instead of frustrating the hell out of me.
Ask me about my sig!
I am a legal owner of HL1, and I never bought HL2 only because I didn't want to deal with steam.
https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
Ah. What are the contents of the binary blob? Assuming you were actually offline, the game couldn't be downloading any content...
All your base are belong to Wii.
Didn't RTFA but the scheme sounds a lot like Blizzard's MPQ, which has been used since Diablo (the first game on bnet). The factory pressings of the discs are of course identical, but when you install the program (as required), the installation files are encrypted with the cd-key. Thus every installation can be uniquely identified. Sounds to me like Valve is merely substituting a Steam ID for the cd-key.
Of course, like any copy protection scheme (just as with Steam activation now being trivial to emulate) it is only useful until someone figures out how to break it.
Okay --- so the executable verifies itself to ensure its watermark hasn't been tampered with, right? So just edit out the portion that checks the watermark. Problem solved.
pre-1991 was a good time for the Linux Community.
Yes. And so this gives Gabe the ability to arbitrarily undo the DRM on all tittles offered by Steam?
If Valve goes under, all assets go to whoever their firesale creditors are. And they're going to be happy if Gabe arbitrarily undoes the DRM to their entire portfolio as well?
I have seen a number of software that uses floating licensing model. Can someone tell me how is this different from that?
"I personally call Steam a fare deal." Ha ha! That's an awesome unintentional mispelling....
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
So from the headline, Digital Rights Management is made obsolete by a system that digitally manages the rights for playing the game?
- James
Steam may be what the industry wants. But it's not what the industry 'needs', and there are still many issues with the service completely ignoring the rights of those who use it.
I'm horrified at the prospect of Steam ever gaining a monopoly in videogame retail. The service is already practically designed to specifically destroy the secondhand market, [and thus brick and mortar retailers] while at the same time has enough mindshare and marketshare that it's leaving all the other online retailers behind in its dust.
What exactly is your point?
Is your point that publishers should work to minimize infringing copies of their works while encouraging purchase of legal copies? Well, I'm with you there!
Or is your point that publishers need DRM to accomplish that? Why would you believe that?
There is copyright infringement of music. And major music labels swore on their bibles, torahs, korans, and stock options that they needed strong DRM, or else there would be rampant copyright infringement and no new music would ever be created.
Today the market has largely rejected DRM on music. It's easier than ever to make and distribute infringing copies of songs. There is absolutely nothing preventing infringing copies from being made. Yet the world hasn't ended. Music is still being made.
A combination of ways to discourage infringement and encourage purchasing legal copies were found: Lower prices. Watermarking of songs. Making the legal market more convenient than the illegal market. Ensuring that the legal versions were just as good as the illegal versions. Encouraging people to support the artists they like by paying for the songs. But DRM went out the window.
So if by "finding an acceptable solution" you mean "lowering prices, watermarking games, making the legal market more convenient than the illegal market, ensuring the legal versions are just as good as the illegal versions, and encouraging people to support developers whose games they like by paying for games," great! But if you mean "We just need to find the magical level of DRM," not necessarily.
The deal breaker for me is that a Steam game, like any DRMed game, is not as good as the illegal version. What if Steam goes out of business? Or moves to Steam2 and decides they don't want to support Steam1 anymore? I lose access to all of the games I "own." Surely I can trust a large corporation like Valve, right? Ha! Large companies who screwed their customers in exactly this way include Yahoo, Google (although you got a refund), Major League Baseball, Microsoft (temporary reprieve for a few years), Wal-Mart, and Sony. Given that lineup, why should I trust an itty-bitty little company like Steam/Valve?
(To be fair, I can actually see a DRM system I would whole heartedly support: a binding public commitment to strip the DRM from the game after a short period of time. Maybe 6 to 12 months. This would hamper illegal copies during the highest profit part of the games lifespan. The binding public commitment means that someone like me would buy sooner than later.)
Search 2010 Gen Con events
Well their key must be in the executable somewhere if it works through some type of encryption. Find it, change it, and then make a fake steam server which unlocks the game.
And he has agreements from the third-party games to do so? I doubt it.
And if Steam hits a bad year, or is crushed under, say, a patent lawsuit, and gets taken over in a hostile takeover, perhaps out of bankruptcy, and the new owner decides to shut down Steam because they just wanted to scavenge assents, is Gabe's promise binding on the new owner? I doubt it.
Bioshock lead designer Ken Levine promised that Bioshock's online DRM would eventually be removed. It's been over a year and a half. I'll see that patch any day now. right? I doubt it.
Gabe seems like a nice guy. I genuinely believe he means what he says. But the sort of circumstances that mean that Steam goes down are exactly the sort of circumstances that would render Gabe's promise void. If the company goes into bankruptcy and I ask the bankrupt company to spend more money to pay developers to unlock games I purchased (and testers to test it, and for servers and bandwidth to distribute the patch), the judge will laugh me out of the courtroom.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
but the linux community by order of RMS doesnt buy ATI or nvidia cards. so they shouldnt be gaming anyway.
[/sarcasm]
Part of my concern is for history. Physical media with little to no DRM means that future generations can have access to the past. Future game designers can see what has gone before, to mine it for good ideas, to avoid reinventing the wheel. If everything is online locked, games can go away, forever. The only people with long term access, our video game history custodians, will end up being those will infringing copies. Not a future I look forward to. Sure, you chose to not take care of your physical media. But I do. And I know others who do.
If we had an option between Steam and physical media, we'd both be happy. Heck, if I could get both for a small premium, I'd pay for it in a minute. (Telltale Games has a hundred or so bucks of money because they do exactly this.) But that's an option. It's (at least for Valve's games), Steam or nothing.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
In any operating system. Try the file menu. You do have to have an internet connection the first time you open Steam, but after that you can switch to offline mode and then play indefinitely with no internet.
This is just trading one form of DRM for another. When it comes down to it, the only way a game (or media file) has no DRM is when you can put it on any machine and make it run with no restrictions.
Encrypting the executable, phoning home before the game will start, or challenge-response systems are all forms of DRM.
Now the DRM may be easier to use, and it may be less painful for the user, but in the end, the game still won't run unless certain conditions are met.
That's still DRM.
Let's see if I understand this:
If Steam's servers are offline I get to use the game for free. Then their product does nothing. If they are online I just disable them in the hosts file and get a game for free. Do you really think that this solution hasn't been tried before? What's new? As far as software companies are concerned games must run *and be protected* without an Internet connection. This doesn't "make DRM obsolete" it's just a lame version of DRM.
I can't see any ethical problem with downloading a disc for a game you have a legit key to. And I'm pretty sure that in such a situation you could call the publisher and they'd send you a replacement disc for a nominal fee.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
hi. im from peru i have steam, but my country is like number 1 in piracy, and people here doest get steam because the gamer society doesnt have enough money to buy good and original things (i got steam original account accidentally, god send it to me :) and THE PROBLEM IS here there are like "internet cabins" where people go just for playing games, and they have servers, i coud for a while play CS in almost all of the servers here in Lima, but now with this security of steam i cant play anymore, the only way i'll play cs online again, is going 2 one of those smelly cabins, or go to another country where people actually play online games the why it should be, and of course...buying the pirate one...wich i will not.
haha thats all, its good to have someone to share this, because here im kind of alone with that issue haha
ps, sorry for my bad english
Well, if Steam goes down and doesn't get all the restrictions removed, I'd say there'd be many thousand bored computer-savvy people with nothing to do but reverse-engineer the restrictions... Though, I'd be amazed if the Steam DRM hasn't already been cracked (haven't checked though because the servers are still up and I have a net connection) - really? If it has, what are you all bitching about!
Take Steam for what it is - a very convenient, cheap way of discovering, purchasing, obtaining, maintaining and ultimately PLAYING games. They're all good things .. right? None of the "limitations" have thus far stopped any of that.
Ayjay on Fedang
I bet he has a really muscular right arm from all the exercise
Just LAST NIGHT I spent an hour trying to play TF2 but kept getting a "Steam servers busy" error message? The server was not empty.
I eventually gave up and went to bed; just as well, I needed the sleep.
I don't care about the remote possibility of Valve going under if crashing or overloaded servers are preventing me from playing now.
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
Well I'm having such a blast already, trying to run my original copy of Half-Life 2 through WINE, and fair enough even unsupported, I could've been playing 3 months ago if STEAM wasn't such a clunky piece of hack. Now this? I'd rather have my PC haunted by a poltergeist!
He can, however, be forcably removed by a bus. All mafia jokes aside, if something like that were to happen, Gabe wouldn't be in much of a position to push for the magic patch to be released. Would the next CEO be willing to do this for the steam community?
Warning, knife is sharp. Please keep out of children.
Again, this is speculation. There is nothing written anywhere that covers this. That key could be tied to steam, they could refuse to help you, you could be sued for downloading the media via bittorrent, etc.
The truth is this: We don't know.
That is a major problem.
a. You have to be connected to the internet to play. So what if you have a laptop and you want to play while in a no wireless zone (or just don't want to be connected to the internet because you don't feel like it?)
b. steam has a nasty habit of updating your game when they want to. So if you want to play now but there is a large patch coming you have to wait till its done.
This is just another type of DRM!.
Also, it will be cracked just like all others, it won't stop people from stealing the game it just makes it less desirable to those who buy it.
Its okay. I've saved my Steam sales e-receipts. If the servers go down, I`ll just pirate the games I already paid for.
I'd second this, and go further.
Patching.
I think that Steam handling my patching for me is great.
If I had to reinstall Quake III from my original media, I'd then have to go out there onto the internet and find the patches.
Or I could buy it on Steam, and download the last version without hassles.
Same goes for moving machines - Steam makes this easy.
As a rule I dislike DRM. But I won't object to it on principle - some DRM can be quite acceptable because it gets the tradeoffs right, and I believe Steam is a good example of that.
If Steam was Steam without the DRM, and when you purchased the games, you got both a physical copy (with a decent software manual) and the digital copy, it'd be great.
Any software model that forces customers to phone home/connect to the mothership is flawed at best and horrific at worst.
Regarding Team Fortress 2 (arguably one of their most successful recent titles)
Valve as a company has ridden on the coattails of technology originally developed (and not significantly improved since) from around 1997. The HL/HL2 entity/brush system hasn't changed significantly since Quake1 and to date they still haven't achieved the stunning leap forward of the original Team Fortress "mod". To be clear, the features and functionality available in Quake1 with the original Team Fortress Mod has not been seen in TF2. You would think after 12 years they could have come up with something better. Nope! (No, from a development/mapping perspective, more eye candy does not equal "better")
Take a walk through their bug database and see how long it takes to get anything acknowledged, never mind fixed. It's atrocious. It's embarrassing. The number of developers at Valve that actually know enough about their "flagship" engine and SDK is less than two, that is, one. And he has all the arrogance such a unique position would create. Two for two, Valve, well played.
Oh wait, you can't look through their bug database! Looky here... the buglist was retired late in 2008/early in 2009, and used to reside at http://developer.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/bugzilla/buglist.cgi
Apparently now you can't submit bugs. http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/index.php?title=Bugzilla&redirect=no
That's awesome. How is removing the only publicly accessible bug submission and tracking tool a good thing? Oh right, it's not.
Steam is a cancer on the gaming world. Here's the way it should work: I give you money, you give me a product. That's where our business relationship ends, after the payment transaction.
Want to try something fun with Steam? Play your favorite game. Shut down your computer. Disconnect from the Internet (I know, shocking, but try it!). Now start up the computer and play your favorite game again. Oh wait, you CAN'T. In fact, without planning ahead and jumping through all their lame ass hoops, you CANNOT. EVER. PLAY. AGAIN. Until you reconnect to the Internet.
Guess what? Some of us don't live in a world of 100% guaranteeed Internet Connectivity. Yeah, like ... you know, the part of the world that isn't australia, north america, and western europe. Well that's ok, says Valve, you're boned! Thanks for the money, we'll be snorting more coke off hookers while you can't play your game! Woo hoo!
Until it is possible to play the games I paid for without planning ahead for an Internet "outage", Steam is fundamentally broken. 100%, forever, stick a fork in it, it's done.
So any single player game is a MMO nowadays? Online is an essential part of single player games? Centrally managed servers are the most valueable asset of a single player game?
Not every analogy has to make sense. But it's an advantage in a discussion.
Sorry, BigJClark, but you fail @ Steam.
You cannot switch to Offline mode without... wait for it... being Online. Can't go Online? Sorry! Can't go Offline! Thanks Valve, that's awesome!
Don't believe it? Go ahead a try it. It's an enlightening experience.
If it was possible to "go offline" or "play in offline mode" without any pre-requisites, I might actually be a big supporter of Steam. Until then, nope!
...as a company that's destroying people's legal right to sell on games second hand...
I love that people who rail against having to pay some arbitrary price to the developers of a game immediately turn around and claim they have a right to resell their copy of the game. Despite Steam, you have the option to buy games in a box, and furthermore you have the option to buy them second hand.
What you are failing to grok is that the cost for these options are increasingly not based on the intrinsic value of the physical item. (Which is ridiculous in this case because we're just talking about data.) The value you're getting is the ease at which you get at what you want.
I'm not a fan of DRM, but I think Steam has come up with an imperfect but workable solution. What I would love to see is for someone (and believe you me I'm working on a variant of this idea) to attack what the real problem is; namely that Steam has controlled the source. They have a superior method by which to deliver the product, but presently if you want that you have to go through them.
So, what is the product? The product (service?) is the personal use of games on any system you choose to install them on, combined with the ability to get them whenever you want (assuming net connection), and (and this is important) the ability to seamlessly connect into a social networking utility whose interface is constant throughout those games.
The Steam client is a beautiful illustration of what the end result should be; but what you're quibbling with, and what this whole discussion is about, is how the internals work. What you want is a service that can deliver the data and track what rights you have to it based on your identity - which can be worked out via another service. There is no reason that you have only one delivery service... and I don't mean 'Steam' and 'Greenhouse' per se. I only want to install one client. Rather, I mean that that client ought to be able to connect to either. It ought to be able to get my identity information (what I've bought) from any (valid) source I identify. And it ought to be able to network me across not only games delivered through different providers but also also social networks delivered through different providers.
In short; stop griping that it doesn't work like it used to. When humans came down from the trees they left off with the tail. Yeah, it sucks not being able to hold a banana with your tail, but we got over it. The key is to figure out how we can allow those normal market forces to work on what is the superior technical solution. Which requires a refining of that solution. At that point your money complaints will evaporate.
However, for the love of all that is good, lay off with the arguments that one person's quest for profit is evil, but yours is somehow sanctified.
[Ego]out
[there, fixed it for you]
This may make your head explode, but I don't have an internet connection on my gaming PC, or on any other PC in my home. That's right, I don't want to pay $50 per month plus a $100 set-up fee to Comcast so they can give me throttled bandwidth and generally crappy service that works when it feels like it. I can do all I need to do on the internet during my lunch break at work. I don't have a landline phone either, so dialup is not an option. Instead, I like to play single player games and use my $50 per month to go out and spend time with my friends in the real world. Yes, people like me still exist. And unfortunately, we will soon be unable to play games we have purchased legally. In a delicious twist, the only way I will ever be able to play Steam games is by obtaining illegally cracked versions. I am more than willing to pay the price of a game license. I think the coders deserve my money. I even think that game licenses are a bargain, all things considered. However, despite my yearning desire to pay Valve for their hard work, I will never be able to do so. **** you Valve. I wish I could give you money in exchange for the ability to play your games, but I literally can't, unless I want to pay $50/month for the rest of my life. That works out to about $30,000. You are stupid, and I am angry and I hate you.
Oh noes, the scene can't get their original copy from Steam anymore! I guess they'll just have to get it from a source even higher up the distribution chain, or buy it in a box in a store, JUST LIKE THEY'VE ALWAYS DONE! How does this stop piracy again? Because Joe downloading a game on Steam and making a copy for a friend is not where the real piracy is happening... and the scene won't have a problem cracking these new games or emulating / removing the protection. Duh? Someone got rich with a new failed DRM scheme, that's all, nothing to see here, move along.
No, it doesn't download it. It's probably just encrypted details about when you went offline (and most likely was actually initially created the last time you logged in, so it'd contain details about when you logged in too)
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
Those keys are not tied to Steam. They are legitimate keys. I know, because I've used it with UT3.
Stupid fearmongering is stupid.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
Technically all retail games have the same restriction [of one license per machine].
Starcraft players would disagree with you. Some Blizzard RTS games could be installed in "spawn" mode. A spawn installation could be played multiplayer on a game that the player with the CD and the same CD key was hosting. Likewise, numerous Nintendo DS games and some PSP games can spawn copies over local Wi-Fi.
That won't work if the publisher of the title that we want to play doesn't have a console developer license because it is a small company. Besides, publication on a console platform doesn't necessarily guarantee physical media: see WiiWare and Xbox Live Arcade.
it requires one board game just as video games that can be played together with one copy, amazingly, only require one copy.
With the proliferation of 32" TVs with VGA and HDMI in, why aren't we seeing more PC games that can be played together with one copy?
[This mechanism] restricts me from buying one copy of a game, and having a two-player against my son in the same/next room.
It is the programming of the game engine, not the digital restrictions management, that restricts you from connecting an HDTV and two gamepads to your PC and starting a 2-player game in split-screen mode.
And you also called Epic and got them to send you physical media for free?
Well DUH. My patience is getting cut short. How are you supposed to play an Internet online game, without the Internet in the first place, that your steam account can connect to!!??!
:P
What are you talking about? My point is that if Steam's servers are offline, I cannot play my online games even though *my* Internet connection works *fine*. Obviously if I have no Internet I can't play online
In an MMO, the central server provides a service in addition to authenticating your client.
I just tested: you can save the UT3 installation from Steam and load it without Steam with that key. Your insane expectations are not my problem.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
It's possible he had it installed in Program Files. Bad things happen in Vista with stuff trying to write to Program Files with UAC enabled.
So f'in true! I can't stand this issue I have where on reboots some programs randomly revert back to their configuration of months ago.
...breathing makes oxygen obsolete. Film at 11.
FFS, please don't propagate the misuse of terms like "bricking", which has absolutely nothing to do with what you're talking about.