Doctor Slams Hospital's "Please" Policy

Administrators at England's Worthing Hospital are insisting that doctors say the magic word when writing orders for blood tests on weekends. If a doctor refuses to write "please" on the order, the test will be refused. From the article: "However, a doctor at the hospital said on condition of anonymity that he sees the policy as a money-saving measure that could prove dangerous for patients. 'I was shocked to come in on Sunday and find none of my bloods had been done from the night before because I'd not written "please,"' the doctor said. 'I had no results to guide treatment of patients. Myself and a senior nurse had to take the bloods ourselves, which added hours to our 12-hour shifts. This system puts patients' lives at risk. Doctors are wasting time doing the job of the technicians.'"

Comments

Easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Write, "Please stop sucking cock and do these blood tests, bitch!" :-) That includes the word please!

Re:Easy solution

[Rusty KB]

Stop!? WHY?!?!

Re:Easy solution

[illumnatLA]

You shouldn't have to say 'please' for someone to do the job they were hired to do... it's not a bloody favor you're asking them to do, it's what they're paid for.

Re:Easy solution

[c0lo]

Write, "Please stop sucking cock and do these blood tests, bitch!" :-) That includes the word please!

Better still, redesign the blood test form to include the above phrase, put a tick box in front of it, put a tick in the box and only after that send it to the printing press. Problem is solved with an one-off trivial investment... or is it?

Re:Easy solution

[jellomizer]

I like this rule.
You probably have never worked with MDs before. But let me tell you they are the worst people to deal with. Because they have a Dr. for a prefix and a MD for a suffix to their name they act like they are the smartest person in the world. So when they encounter something new to them, and out of their main scope they get very offensive, rude and makes everyones lives a little bit more stressful.

They will often treat non-MDs who work with them as underlings, who job is purely to aid the doctor from doing those little jobs that they don't like to do. They often hide the fact that they are jerks under the catch phrase "lives are at stake". Which is a medical term for "Think of the children" which also means "I want to do it the way I want to".

Forcing them to be polite while seems like just a silly step is actually quite powerful. Saying please before hand means that the work being done is done for the doctors benefit at the expense of someone elses time. Vs. Just shooting out orders that says you are here for me and just me.

At work we have a policy if a doctor is calling and is cursing and yelling at us without giving us any useful information we can tell them to call back after they have calmed down then we can help you. It isn't about restricting free speech is is about keeping things professional and trying to keep things running orderly.

Yes there is a cost savings by making the Dr. think twice, as well it can help keep the load down for the labs for a while.

Re:Easy solution

[Ritchie70]

In general, I totally disagree.

If I'm dining out and a waitress brings me a drink, I say "Thank you." If they ask if I'd like something, I say "yes, please" or "no, thank you." Maybe my mother just beat it into me (not literally) but I can't help myself and I think it's appropriate.

If I were a doctor, I'd probably ask the techs to "get Mrs. Jones's blood to the lab ASAP please" unless I was distracted with trying to keep Mrs. Jones alive, and even then I might well out of habit.

If you read the article, the goal of the "Please" isn't actually civility, it's to make the doctors think if the test is necessary. I assume there's some higher cost to weekend testing than week-day testing as it's a weekend policy.

To require it in a medical concept is nuts. If a doctor orders a test, he should expect it to happen without having to write some "magic word" on the order.

Re:Easy solution

[Lumpy]

Yup. I refuse to call a doctor "doctor" I call them by their first name.

There are an amazing number of these ego maniacs that get insulted that I don't call them "doctor".

"My degree deserves respect!", no you need to EARN my respect.

On the same note, Call your Dentist "doctor" or "doc" they really appreciate that as the MD's constantly tell dentists they are not doctors. Yet dentists do more to promote better general health than any MD.

Re:Easy solution

[Ritchie70]

Ugh, wish slashdot had post-post edit. "in a medical concept"? WTF does that mean?

I meant "In a medical context. ..."

Re:Easy solution

[SanityInAnarchy]

Because they have a Dr. for a prefix and a MD for a suffix to their name they act like they are the smartest person in the world.

They've been through medical school, so yeah, I'd say they are some of the smartest people in the world. I'm not saying they have the right to be assholes, but it seems like elitism is justified here.

They often hide the fact that they are jerks under the catch phrase "lives are at stake". Which is a medical term for "Think of the children" which also means "I want to do it the way I want to".

Except that "lives are at stake" is likely to actually be true. Do you have a specific example of where "the way I want to" is actually arbitrary?

Forcing them to be polite while seems like just a silly step is actually quite powerful.

I don't think it's likely to accomplish what you're suggesting. At best, it'd get them to grudgingly start saying please and thank you -- and would you really rather have a sarcastic "please" than none at all?

the work being done is done for the doctors benefit at the expense of someone elses time. Vs. Just shooting out orders that says you are here for me and just me.

Versus, say, you're all there for me, the patient.

At work we have a policy if a doctor is calling and is cursing and yelling at us without giving us any useful information we can tell them to call back after they have calmed down then we can help you.

That part is key. Also, "cursing and yelling" is something you might actually complain about, compared to "not saying please."

Re:Easy solution

[sustik]

Watch House MD. You may like it.

Re:Easy solution

[natehoy]

Given the source of this story, I doubt it's true or complete, but assuming it is...

I like this rule, except that the failure to write "please" should not prevent the actual test from being performed when the doctor orders it to be done.

Maybe fine the doctor $10 every time they fail to say "please" on a form, put the doctor's names up on a wall of shame, or make them buy the next round of flowers for the office.

But anyone in the medical field should know that you do not withhold medical information that is possibly vital to a patient's health because the doc forgot to say "pweddy pweaze wiff sugar on top" on the form. Ever.

I'm not saying courtesy is unimportant, or that doctors have the right to be rude, only that the patient shouldn't suffer because their doctor is a dickhead to the support staff.

Re:Easy solution

[Bakkster]

They will often treat non-MDs who work with them as underlings, who job is purely to aid the doctor from doing those little jobs that they don't like to do.

While it may not give them the right to act like a prick about it, a technician's job is to do menial tasks so that a doctor or nurse (or engineer, in other fields) doesn't need to. There are plenty of reasons for this, not least of which is that it keeps costs down. Not only does it cost more to pay a doctor to do so (and keep him from his other duties), but the technicians are certainly better at getting lab work done. And, since technicians can't provide patient care, it's best to give each task to those who specialize in it (nurse draws the blood, lab tech runs tests, doctor diagnoses and prescribes treatment).

It's similar in engineering (electrical in this example, since it's what I do). The engineer designs the circuit, a draftsman lays it out physically, and a technician lays out and solders the parts. Yes, the engineer can do it, but it's not their specialty, and it's much more expensive and slower to have them do it.

One could certainly make an argument that such jobs are 'below' engineers/doctors, but I wouldn't direct that kind of sentiment to a tech. It's certainly valuable work that they do that saves me a hell of a lot of time, and I try to show my appreciation (lots of 'please' and 'thank you'). It doesn't give me or anyone else the right to shit on a tech, but it is their job to assist the doctor/engineer by doing menial tasks that they don't have time to do.

Re:Easy solution

[AndersOSU]

I agree with everything you said.

I've just got to believe that there already is a medical word that doctors can apply to an urgent order, without co-opting please. How about NOW, or STAT, or URGENT, or ASAP. Please makes it sound like a request, which it really isn't - it's an order, and there should be a better way of indicating urgency than appending "please". What I suspect has happened is that doctors over-use the already existing words, so hospital administrators are playing a game of word-inflation. It's not actually going to decrease the amount of weekend work, it's just going to force the doctors to pad their orders with code-words.

If they want to decrease the amount of work performed on overtime, what they need to do is call a staff meeting and explain why they think that there's an overabundance of urgent requests. OTOH, it's probably easier to just send out an email stating that all orders that don't contain the magic word of the week will be rejected.

Re:Easy solution

[hduff]

And interfering with medical care is OK with you? Please get your panties in a bunch in another line of work.

Re:Easy solution

[FatAlb3rt]

Right there with ya. Please is a pet peeve of mine. I especially notice it when people order food: "Yeah, I want X."

How about: "Could I get X please?" It's not really that hard to say.

Re:Easy solution

[hduff]

Yup. I refuse to call a doctor "doctor" I call them by their first name.

My physicians, dentists, osteopaths and chiropractors refer to me as "Mr."; I refer to them as "Dr.". Well, almost all.

One internist called me by my first name the first time we met, I replied "Not feeling good today, Bob." Bob was cool with that.

Re:Easy solution

[cowscows]

Just because someone hasn't been through medical school doesn't mean that they couldn't have gone to medical school. Am I automatically less intelligent because I chose a career that isn't in the field of medicine, or that doesn't require a few extra years of school? It's not like the day I got my bachelor's degree I stopped learning new things. I learn more every day while working.

I'm sure there are plenty of doctors out there that are smarter than me. I'm also sure there are plenty of doctors out there that are dumber than me. I hope that all doctors out there know more about medicine than me, but I'm willing to bet that very few of them know more about my profession than I do.

The fact that someone spent more time in school than someone else doesn't automatically means that they're smarter than them, it probably just means that their priorities were different. And it certainly doesn't give them the right to be an elitist asshole. Cure cancer, and then you've earned the right to be an elitist asshole. But even then, you're still an asshole, and you should expect people to respond accordingly.

Re:Easy solution

[Albatrosses]

You know, it's really only in the US that doctors make an assload of cash... here in Canada they're paid similarly to any other professional (i.e. reasonably). Since this story is coming from the UK, I'd imagine it's similar there too.

But no, privatized healthcare is more cost-effective... *ducks*

Re:Easy solution

[blueskies]

Good luck legislating people to not be assholes. So when the doctor says "Please go fuck yourself" you'll be fine with it? Assholes are assholes, and making them write please isn't going to solve the problem.

Re:Easy solution

[jellomizer]

They were not interfering with medical care... The doctor was. If the doctor is so arrogant that he cannot say please then his priorities are not to the patient. As well this is probably good for the Lab Techs who need to do their job carefully and without extra stress. So you think it is good for the patient to get their results from someone who is under stress to get it done, from a guy they don't like at all.

For most of the time this stuff isn't that time sensitive. A few hours or days delay is bad for the doctor as it messes up his billing $$$ but it has very minimal impact on the patient in terms of care.

Re:Easy solution

[Critical Facilities]

You probably have never worked with MDs before. But let me tell you they are the worst people to deal with. Because they have a Dr. for a prefix and a MD for a suffix to their name they act like they are the smartest person in the world. So when they encounter something new to them, and out of their main scope they get very offensive, rude and makes everyones lives a little bit more stressful.

I am not disagreeing with you here, but I must interject that this syndrome is not isolated to MDs, or any doctors for that matter. Professional Engineers tend to be just as bad, and I'm sure there are other highly educated folks who, as a group, tend to exhibit this behavior more than other groups.

All that said, I think everyone could do with a little more courtesy (professional and otherwise). Seriously, it takes no effort and no significant time to say "please" and "thank you". People would be surprised what a little common courtesy will do for improving just about any situation.

Re:Easy solution

[abigsmurf]

Perhaps they find it insulting because it IS insulting?

They wish to be called Doctor and they've earnt the right to be called doctor. If someone named Richard says "please call me Rich, not Dick", do you then go around calling him Dick? Do you address important business clients you're meeting for the first time just by their first name?

You are deliberately choosing not to address them by their title against their wishes. That is a calculated insult.

Re:Easy solution

[mano the shark]

Do you share the burden of liability for malpractice suits when you work with a doctor? Maybe that's why doctors may develop a me against the world attitude because of arguably excessive risk they are exposed when people second guess them when they don't test for everything under the sun.

Re:Easy solution

[orthicviper]

i don't find dentists very ethical. they put mercury in your mouth, and they don't ever tell you about the pros and cons and options you have for different repairs like a doctor would. they don't tell you how a metal filling requires them to drill away more of the tooth than the other choices like ceramic or composite resin.

Re:Easy solution

[Belial6]

I suspect that's not even it. I suspect it is because doctors tend to have an over inflated sense of importance, and enough of them had behaved badly enough that the techs started to throw a fit. Someone in the office politics sort of way decided that this was a way that they could 'force' the doctors to be nicer. This sort of thing rarely works, but people keep trying.

Re:Easy solution

[MBGMorden]

Doctor I really don't mind. Not that I feel that anybody else should use the title if they don't want to, but I personally don't mind the prefix doctor.

It's the retired military that gets on my nerves. Some of the old guys get offended if you don't call them "Colonel XYZ" or whatever their rank was. If you're active and around other military, then fine, but don't expect civilians to care about your military rank, particularly after you're out.

Comparatively, I know my mother has a huge problem referring to priests as "Father". As a non-Catholic she considers it offensive, to her own religion, so she politely says "Mr. XYZ" instead, but it's caused some problems in the past.

Re:Easy solution

[MBGMorden]

To some people the idea of titles is demeaning.

To address one differently then another is to assume a different value to that person over others. Many people don't feel that education level, or other factors, intrinsically throw someone into a different value versus any other person.

Re:Easy solution

[sco08y]

They will often treat non-MDs who work with them as underlings, who job is purely to aid the doctor from doing those little jobs that they don't like to do.

But they *are* underlings, or to use the less loaded term, subordinate.

Sure, it sucks having a boss or VIP or whatever who is an asshole, but that doesn't change the fact that you're still a subordinate. There are lots of ways to work with these people or resolve these kinds of situations, but simply denying reality will not lead you to the right choice. In this case, the doctor points out that he needed a job done and, for lack of a magic word, it wasn't done. That's ridiculous: someone really could die. That kind of shit only happens when people have deluded themselves.

And the truth that you're missing is that the death is not going to fall on the blood tech. That's *why* the techs are subordinate: they have less actual responsibility. And, short of them going to medical school, there's no way they could take on that responsibility.

Re:Easy solution

[Loconut1389]

Never say -any- MD. There are a lot of MDs out there fighting to change the world in a lot of ways- from pioneering and promoting new newborn screening protocls/requirements, to going to botswana and giving their services free.

Moreover, your doctor spent something like half a million dollars and many years of their lives to learn the profession you're paying to see them for. They went through hell in residency and put their families aside.

If you don't want to respect your doctor, get a new one.

Yes, there are some asshole docs- I've had one or two or three, there are some who are very caring but have the bedside manner of a turnip, and there are some who will melt your heart.

But remember, they worked hard to get there, you're paying them to be professionals, treat them like professionals.

Re:Easy solution

[kibbey]

"These hands have been touched by God!!"

-- Greaseman

Re:Easy solution

[operagost]

They've been through medical school, so yeah, I'd say they are some of the smartest people in the world. I'm not saying they have the right to be assholes, but it seems like elitism is justified here.

Elitism is never justified. In fact, if you've been gifted with great intelligence, humility is a great trait to acquire lest you become one of those brainiacs who thinks he can do no wrong-- and so does on a daily basis.

Re:Easy solution

[tprime]

I work with physicians every day and can agree that they can sometimes be challenging with their social skills. HOWEVER, the main point behind them writing in the chart is care for the PATIENT. There is a reason why orders are called "orders" and not "requests." At any job we all have our roles and a tech's or nurse's or any other non decision making clinician role happens to be to carry out the physician's orders. If this is to make them be nicer and less demanding, it is the most annoying piece of passive aggressive garbage I have seen in a hospital.

Also, the patient's chart is designed to be a concise list of actions ordered, tests done, results and diagnoses, not a social commentary. Adding ANY extra word that does not directly affect patient care just makes it more difficult to read.

There are far more impacting ways to deal with difficult physicians, most of them revolve around a hospital's medical staff dept. To the Parent poster, perhaps you should reevaluate your job if you do not like the environment in which you work. As far as I have seen, the same issues appear, in some ways, at every company where a clearly defined caste system exists.

Re:Easy solution

[sjames]

No, you shouldn't HAVE to. At the same time, you SHOULD do so anyway. If you don't, also don't be surprised if people get to everyone else's request before yours when things get busy.

Re:Easy solution

[digitalunity]

Titles themselves are sourced from a distant past, and more recently from old English traditions. Titles are supposed to represent accomplishment and by calling someone by their title, you give them credit and respect for earning that title.

Why do you think everyone calls Obama "Mr. President"? Do you think it's because they presume you don't know who the president is? Not likely.

Now, this post shouldn't be taken as a defense of titles, just an explanation. I don't call my doctor "Doctor" and I don't want a dr. who demands such. I call her Mary, and that's all there is to it.

If I met my governor, I wouldn't call him Governor Pawlenty. It would be Mr. Pawlenty, most likely. Same goes for Senator Franken, I would likely simply call him Mr. Franken.

Re:Easy solution

[digitalunity]

I dont care for titles, but I hate this rule.

If I tell my employees to do something, I want it done whether I said please or not; especially if what I'm telling them to do already falls within the bounds of what they were hired to do.

If I send work over to another department that I do not control and they have a stated policy of getting said work done in 24 hours, I expect it done whether I said please or not. Pleasantries and civility go a long way towards making coworkers happy, but they shouldn't be a prerequisite for people to do their damned jobs.

Re:Easy solution

[Maxo-Texas]

I disagree.

In fact, the cases where the doctor is most likely to forget to write "please" include a higher rate of cases where time is critical.

In the fine article, the doctor considered this important enough to stay and work personal over time instead of simply rewriting the note with please and resubmitting it.

This is some kind of dick waving contest between the doctors and the techs.

Re:Easy solution

[RapmasterT]

My physicians, dentists, osteopaths and chiropractors refer to me as "Mr.";

That makes sense, as chiropractors aren't real doctors.

Except that I'd take it a step farther and instead of calling a chiropractor "mr", I'd call him "jackass".

Re:Easy solution

[Kabuthunk]

Personally, I'd rather the doctor concentrate more on KEEPING ME ALIVE than being delayed because he didn't say 'pretty please, with sugar on top' in order to get some results needed to make me not die.

I mean, there's attempting to make them more coerteous, and then there's "oh, let the patient die... the doctor didn't say please".

Re:Easy solution

[lymond01]

I agree with the parent, not the GP. I work with university faculty and many of them have an elitist attitude. But you know, I'm just support staff. I'm here for them so they DO get the right to interrupt as they please and I don't require them to be overly polite. Like doctors, you get all kinds though. Some are just genuinely nice people who accomplish just as much using social norms. Others treat everything someone else does as "unacceptable", even when it doesn't affect them directly. As a rule, the people who use the term "unacceptable" are either very very good or very very not good.

Re:Easy solution

[geekoid]

SO if you just ahppen to not say please when she take your order, then she goes in back and sets it aside to not be prepared, you would be fine with that?

A better exmples. The Waitress doesn't say please to the Chef, so the Chef refuses to prepare your meal.
How about that? and if you replace meal with 'medical test your life may depend on' it doesn't get better.

The lab shouldn't refuse to to medical tests. If they have an issue, they can deal with it through administrative channels and not put the patient at risk.

You know how to tell if Doctors thin the tested is needed? they request it.
A serious problem in the medical industry is the following:

A Doctor orders a test. It comes back negative. People whoa aren't trained to think scientifically will say"That test wasn't necessary" When in fact the conclusion should be "That test removed all these possible variables."

Re:Easy solution

[geekoid]

No. If you read the article, you will see it was an attempt by the hospital to reduce costs.

Re:Easy solution

[geekoid]

But they do.
Md's are highly trained. They are experts. You are not. You're opinion in that field should never carry as much weight as theirs.

That Dr has MORE VALUE in the medical industry then you do.
Just like a bridge engineer has MORE VALUE in designing bridges then you do.

The idea of titles is to give information.

Re:Easy solution

[rgviza]

You should be polite to servers so they don't spit in your food, or worse. Wanting to be nice is admirable, but that's the least of the good reasons to be polite to people who handle your food, even if they are thankless assholes.

Re:Easy solution

[geekoid]

FIrst off, it is insulting.
Secondly MDs carry a lot of responsibility and can be held accountable for many things. as such, you should be damn sure you are addressing a MD.

ou should go to medical school. After you fail and drop out you will then understand why the get respect. I also suggest you learn what they do every day.

"Yet dentists do more to promote better general health than any MD."
That is nonsense.
I know too many Drs. you do thing on there own time to promote health for that to be true. I am not saying the do more the Dentists or that Dentist don't promote good health. Just that your statement is wrong.

You are a douche bag, pure and simple.

Re:Easy solution

[Qhartb]

I agree with you that it's polite to ask nicely for someone to do what they're paid for. I also agree with your parent post that it's not necessary. It's not like the waitress is justified in not bringing you your dinner because you didn't say please when you ordered.

Re:Easy solution

[Weezul]

A more effective solution would be helping the patients sick an ambulance chasing lawyer on the hospital for every refused case that could be life threatening, well like any case where the blood test included any tests for diseases taht could be fatal relatively quickly. You might find the hospital was more amicable after their lawyers spend a few hundred grand fighting off silly lawsuits.

Re:Easy solution

[AthanasiusKircher]

Md's are highly trained. They are experts. You are not. You're opinion in that field should never carry as much weight as theirs.

I do think the GGGP's (or whatever) solution of using first names is a bit insulting. That said, I think you're misunderstanding the point of the GP. From that post:

To address one differently then another is to assume a different value to that person over others.

Note that he didn't say "a different value to that person's opinion," he said "a different value to that person."

And, in that sense, I agree with the GP. Titles are around to force people to give a certain level of deference or respect to certain people. That may have a point in strictly hierarchical societies (like the military, where titles are very important, or perhaps in diplomatic relations), but in average everyday encounters between people, it is actually a bit weird if you stop and think about it.

That Dr has MORE VALUE in the medical industry then you do.

Just like a bridge engineer has MORE VALUE in designing bridges then you do.

Yeah, you sort of prove the point here. Why are doctors special in getting their titles? Do you say "Engineer Smith" when you address that guy with technical expertise? Hell, even if the engineer has a doctorate in civil engineering, I bet nobody calls him "Doctor" except if he were to give a talk in an academic context or something like that.

The idea of titles is to give information.

Rarely. The idea of titles is to differentiate people into different classes and force some people to respect others, as in the military, clergy, aristocracy, etc., which is where most titles came from. If you want to treat a person as an equal, you use his/her name.

In the case of medical doctors, the "information" conveyed by the title only matters in an emergency situation where someone walks up to treat you, and you want to know if that person is qualified. Even in that case, do you really just trust them on the basis that they call themselves "Doctor"? In 99% of your interactions with most doctors, you already know who they are or can easily discover it (name badge?), so the title carries no information.

Re:Easy solution

[AthanasiusKircher]

I don't agree with the GP's decision to use first names by default unless they know the person well. That said...

ou should go to medical school. After you fail and drop out you will then understand why the get respect. I also suggest you learn what they do every day.

I know quite a few doctors. I know lots of other smart people. I know lots of other people who work hard. Out of these people, I know a lot of people who are smarter than many doctors I know and a lot of people who work harder than many doctors I know.

Lots of people work very hard and accomplish a lot. But there are only a few professions where people insist on titles to recognize those accomplishments. Politicians get them for historical and diplomatic reasons. Clergy get them because of historical and theological reasons. Military personnel get them because the hierarchy requires them. Why do doctors get them? Because they work hard and went to a tough school? Yeah... so what?

Re:Easy solution

[Bakkster]

Just because someone hasn't been through medical school doesn't mean that they couldn't have gone to medical school. Am I automatically less intelligent because I chose a career that isn't in the field of medicine, or that doesn't require a few extra years of school? It's not like the day I got my bachelor's degree I stopped learning new things. I learn more every day while working.

Nobody said non-Dr.s couldn't be smart as well. It doesn't even recognize intelligence per-se (although it's certainly a factor). It only recognizes achievement, specifically their degree. In other words, while smart people may not be all doctors, all doctors are smart people (it's a universal affirmative, but only one way).

It doesn't make them better, but it does make them a Dr. Regardless of your thoughts on the implied benefits of such a title or how they may carry it, they certainly did earn such a title. Similarly, just because you're as smart as or 'could have been' the president, you aren't the president and thus don't receive that title.

Re:Easy solution

[Rutulian]

Except that "lives are at stake" is likely to actually be true. Do you have a specific example of where "the way I want to" is actually arbitrary?

Most cases, actually. There are established medical procedures accepted by the medical community for most cases, and hospitals have whole departments dedicated to documenting and monitoring the use of those protocols by doctors. A doctor absolutely cannot, despite what he may like, do it "the way he wants to." It's a liability for the hospitals, and they won't tolerate it. House is not a realistic portrayal of the way a real hospital works. The problem is a lot of doctors, like a lot of slashdotters, think they're too smart to have to follow the rules. When they do, they get caught by the nurse, or the pharmacist, or the technician, or whoever else is working with them, and they often get fired for it. A degree is great and it means you have a certain amount of training and expertise, but it doesn't exempt you from the need to follow protocols and rely on the people around you for help and advice.

Re:Easy solution

[AthanasiusKircher]

Because they have a Dr. for a prefix and a MD for a suffix to their name they act like they are the smartest person in the world.

They've been through medical school, so yeah, I'd say they are some of the smartest people in the world. I'm not saying they have the right to be assholes, but it seems like elitism is justified here.

I know a heck of a lot of really smart people in a lot of professions. I know a lot of people who have been through 8 years of college or more in various professions (lots of Ph.D.s in engineering, science, humanities, not to mention lawyers, etc.). Doctors are about the only ones who insist on a title in most circumstances. Why is the elitist use of a title justified here?

Medical doctors are, by and large, smart people. I won't dispute that. But are they more elite than most other professions that require a doctorate? Not really. In fact, I'd say in terms of technical knowledge and ability, I've met a number of biology, genetics, biomedical engineering, etc. Ph.D.s who are leagues ahead of the vast majority of doctors in terms of understanding of the technical aspects of medicine.

Doctors have to deal with people, though. A good doctor isn't necessarily the smartest, but rather one that balances intelligence with good people skills, which are essential to get information from a patient for diagnosis, to figure out how to interpret what a patient is telling you versus what might really be going on, etc.

Do doctors deserve respect? Of course. But more respect that other people with similarly elite qualifications, credentials, and abilities?

Re:Easy solution

[vrmlguy]

The problem is a lot of doctors, like a lot of slashdotters, think they're too smart to have to follow the rules. When they do, they get caught by the nurse, or the pharmacist, or the technician, or whoever else is working with them, and they often get fired for it. A degree is great and it means you have a certain amount of training and expertise, but it doesn't exempt you from the need to follow protocols and rely on the people around you for help and advice.

I assume that "they often get fired for it" is referring to the nurses, or the pharmacists, and the technicians, because doctors never get fired. As the old adage says, they bury their mistakes.

And here's some more evidence supporting the idea that "MDs think they're too smart to have to follow the rules": ... be sure to ask about a checklist, and don’t be surprised if the doctor is reluctant.

Re:Easy solution

[bware]

They've been through medical school, so yeah, I'd say they are some of the smartest people in the world...

Many people have been to lots of school, and have varying numbers of letters after their names, and still manage to be polite.

Except that "lives are at stake" is likely to actually be true.

Many people work in professions where lives are at stake, and still manage to be polite. Some of them are smart and have been to lots of school, and some are not, and have not. They're usually still expected to be polite.

Some of my docs call me by my (earned) title and some call me by my first name, and I reciprocate appropriately. Either way, I'm (usually) polite.

Re:Easy solution

[Rutulian]

Actually, doctors do get fired for it, although it might not happen as often as it should. My dad used to work in a department responsible for overseeing patient safety, and yes, doctors would get in trouble on a regular basis for doing some pretty incredible things (pushing a patient off the exam table is one that comes to mind).

Re:Easy solution

[oji-sama]

From Finnish point of view this whole addressing thing is really interesting (and strange). I'd pretty much call people with their titles only if I don't know their names. Well, I might keep calling our president Mrs president until she says otherwise (if I met her).

I think most people prefer to be called by their names. I don't really know that many medical doctors, but the judges I know prefer their names. Well, outside of the court, obviously.

In fact there are a few jokes about sticking to the titles: After an accident - Elderly lady: "Oh no, the engineer got buried in snow." Her neighbour, mumbling under a pile of snow: "...Master of Science"

Re:Easy solution

[Mike Buddha]

"Please do your motherf*cking job, assholes"

Re:Easy solution

[cowscows]

I wouldn't argue that they don't deserve the title, but I don't think there's any title out there that makes it acceptable for anyone to be a dick to other people by default.

Sure, becoming a doctor is a real achievement, and I've got no problem with someone proudly putting Dr. before their name. But to be arrogant about it, or to think that it in any way makes you better than the average person is ridiculous.

Re:Easy solution

[Bakkster]

I think that was precisely my point. They're assholes because they're acting like assholes, not because they're doctors.

That said, in a hospital they are the decision makers. By the order of things, the techs are subordinate. That doesn't mean anyone with a Dr. in front of their name gets to treat them like crap, but likewise a technician shouldn't be allowed to interfere with patient care because a doctor hurt their feelings.

It's equally arrogant for a technician to claim to be 'just the same' as a doctor, as it is for the doctor to parade that fact.

Re:Easy solution

[Trepidity]

Funnily enough, my anecdotal experience is that the people most offended by not having their title used are the ones likely to actually deserve the respect it's supposed to connote.

The most brilliant PhD researchers I know generally ask people to call them by their first name, and don't even really like being called "Dr. So-and-so". The ones who sign every email "Dr. So-and-so, PhD", and parade it around, are usually status-conscious careerists who are not very good researchers.

Re:Easy solution

[geekoid]

If the engineers had a Doctorate, I would call them Dr. Smith.

In hospitals, clear designation is critical. So I call them Doctors, I Call nurses Nurse.

In this context, calling them Dr's is important.

The whole context here is medical. I know many Dr's., and when not in a work environment I call them by their first name, and they are fine with that.

"you already know who they are or can easily discover it (name badge?"
During an emergency? I've been in and watched many people in an emergency room and very often the person is to busy or in pain to or emotional involved to read a name badge. Or communicate above a single word. When you are having a hard time you don't want to say "I need Steve"

"If you want to treat a person as an equal, you use his/her name."
In a medical context, you are not the Doctors equal. You only think that because we live in an age where everyone thinks they are an expert.

Re:Easy solution

[ffflala]

Saying please before hand means that the work being done is done for the doctors benefit at the expense of someone elses time. Vs. Just shooting out orders that says you are here for me and just me.... there is a cost savings by making the Dr. think twice, as well it can help keep the load down for the labs for a while.

Granted I have never worked w/ MDs, so I can only take your post at face value. But from my perspective this policy seems to prioritize the emotional comfort of hospital staff above the quality of medical care.

I can understand your point where the tasks are degrading, arbitrary, or unnecessary. But sometimes a seemingly unnecessary blood test will yield information that makes for a faster, more accurate, or more efficient diagnosis and treatment, right?

Re:Easy solution

[Ritchie70]

That's probably the one waiter:customer interaction where I usually don't throw in a please. Usually a thank-you tho.

Waiter: What can I get you tonight?
Me: I'll have the buffalo avacado burger with fries.
Waiter: OK, thanks. I'll get that right in.
Me: Thank you.

Re:Easy solution

[shermo]

Am I automatically less intelligent because I chose a career that isn't in the field of medicine, or that doesn't require a few extra years of school?

Well at the least you don't understand basic logic.

He's not saying everyone who didn't got to medical school is an idiot, he's saying people who go to medical school are smart.

A->B is equivalent to !B->!A.
A->B is not equivalent to !A->!B

It's a common mistake in first year logic courses.

Re:Easy solution

[cowscows]

He's saying they're smart as a way of defending them being dicks to other people. I don't care if they're smart. I don't care how smart they think they are. I don't care that they have a title that reminds them that they're smart. That doesn't justify them feeling superior to other people and treating others like they're inferior or unworthy or whatever.

Re:Easy solution

[EStrat]

Easy there, tiger. Did I miss where someone said "cowscows is not as intelligent as any doctor"?

I think we can call you touchy, though.

Re:Easy solution

[Krahar]

When I was at a hospital, I had the impression that the nurses would not stop a conversation with me about a medical matter, even if they thought I was being silly and wasting their time. It seemed pretty clear to me that there was a rule about that, unless they had an emergency somewhere else, or at least that they choose to follow such a rule. Yet, when the doctor wanted to speak to one of the nurses in the hall-way, he physically grabbed a hold of her arm so that she would be unable to move away for the duration of what he wanted to tell her. That just seemed incredibly rude to me and I know that I would immediately free myself if anyone tried that with me, boss or not. Instituting a saying please policy to counter that kind of culture seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Another aspect is that it is perfectly possible to be rude, bossy and obnoxious while saying please.

Re:Easy solution

[SanityInAnarchy]

Actually, thanks, that's exactly what I meant by "a specific case".

So I suppose they do abuse it, which is unfortunate, because unlike "think of the children", it's actually a legitimate complaint -- if it's legitimate.

As for that computer, I think that'd be a pretty clear case for having two computers there, or one in a VM -- some way to isolate the paper airplane bullshit, so it doesn't actually affect patient care.

Re:Easy solution

[SanityInAnarchy]

That's why I qualified "some of".

And the main difference here is that most engineers don't have a situation where people actually might die if their support team doesn't get shit done the way they're supposed to, and on time.

Again, I'm not saying they have a license to be assholes. I'm not even saying they're the only ones deserving of the title "elite." I'm saying that they shouldn't have to say please and thank you -- there's a line between being the cold, assertive, demanding doctor, and the elitist, abusive asshole doctor.

Just wanna say

[Barrinmw]

Forced gratitude has zero meaning.

Re:Just wanna say

[Farmer Tim]

Thanks for that.

Re:Just wanna say

[cyp43r]

Because nowadays all our greetings, thank-yous, pleases, goodbyes and how are yous? are all heartfelt, and not token words we exchange in set formulas anyways.

Re:Just wanna say

[Low Ranked Craig]

sudo get me a blood test is probably more appropriate than please get me a blood test

Re:Just wanna say

[Anonymous Coward]

I do find it insulting but in many situations I tend to overlook it.

For example, if someone is being obsequious towards me because their job depends on it (like at a restaurant or bar), that is, to some degree, acceptable and even expected (sad that we expect/require people to act fake in certain situations).

Situations that I find it completely unacceptable in, however, are ones that touch on issues of trust.. Like when a supposed friend wants something from you, but rather than simply cutting to the chase they beat around the bush and try to offer you something, anything, as if though it were a gift, so that when you accept it, you are placed into a position of obligation to provide them with what they initially wanted when it is later tactfully and subtly revealed to you. Some call that business, I call it a prime example of what a human should not be.

What is sad though is that over the years, I have come to the conclusion that if you are only going to hang out with decent people that don't use these sort of tactics, you are going to be rather lonely. But, at least you'll know who you can trust and depend on.

On another note... One sort of spin off / sidetrack way I am offended by this sort of pretend pandering is how so many companies make it a point to make all of their advertisements multicultural, it looks like the fucking village people you have cops, indians, firemen, construction workers, chinese people wearing the pointy round woven rice planting hat (seriously when the fuck have you seen someone wearing one of those in America? I mean, I live in America, and I own one, really, and I have NEVER seen another one in my life- and I have been actively looking), and of course a black lady in her 30s has to be somewhere in the mix. The JWs are infamous about this, seriously, next time you see one of their articles of literature lying around somewhere for free look at the pictures and if you cannot spot 7 different culturally stereotyped representatives I would be amazed. Who knows in 10 years they might have to add a furry to the mix.

Re:Just wanna say

[TubeSteak]

Forced gratitude has zero meaning.

Sometimes you have to force the issue if you want to create the habit in people.
My mother spent a lot of time reminding me to "say please" and "thank you" until it eventually stuck.

Anyways, this isn't really about "saying please," it's about creating a small barrier for doctors to overcome if they want their blood tests done by the apparently overworked staff during the weekend.

The managers said the move is aimed at easing pressure on hospital workers charged with performing blood tests by making doctors consider whether the tests are essential.

Eventually, doctors will just start writing please on all their lab request forms and the hospital will be back where it started.

Re:Just wanna say

[Moofie]

Mine are.

They cost me little, and get me lots. Common courtesy is a very good investment.

Re:Just wanna say

[nmb3000]

Words are just words, they have as much or as little meaning as the person saying them wishes to express.

That said, having somebody say "how's it going?" as you quickly walk past them does annoy me. Why bother saying something like that if you're never going to hear an answer? I usually will just nod or say hello instead of asking an obviously empty question like that.

Re:Just wanna say

[i'm lost]

Saying thank you at least acknowledges that the other person did something for you and it didn't go unnoticed. Even if there's no emotion behind it or anything, that's still something.

Re:Just wanna say

[_KiTA_]

Eventually, doctors will just start writing please on all their lab request forms and the hospital will be back where it started.

If the doctors were thinking ahead, they'd get some stamps or stencils or stationary with the word "please" already there. And then complain to the management every single time they didn't get done.

Of course, this will end when a customer complains about a delayed blood test...

Perhaps will need to be a legal complaint, but...

Re:Just wanna say

[gullevek]

probably they should outsource that to India or China :D

Re:Just wanna say

[cyphercell]

A task has to be well defined and proven in order to finish on time. Technicians are not graduate students. The technicians job is to facilitate a demand for resources, measuring efficiency, cost, time, feasibility, etc. The technicians job is not to assemble every possible part in every possible configuration. As a pc technician I wonder how it would have been if the three of them were working towards a common goal, they probably would have jammed the project out in like an hour. Other times the technician will need to work alone, basically the more reproducable something is the more a technician will tend to it. If the task is extrenuous it might be more of a favor than a job. That and the budget might be kind of crappy, technicians look terrible when they're underfunded/understaffed.

Re:Just wanna say

[Rusty KB]

It already feels like they do...

Re:Just wanna say

[JustinRLynn]

Until everyone realizes that your thanks are overinflated penny stocks and then your valuation heads into the toilet.

Re:Just wanna say

[Anonymous Coward]

We're all very funny today aren't we, all of you folks that haven't worked E&R. Let me tell you something you will never experience yourself, but hospital doctors can be some of the biggest ego-centric pricks you will never meet - really, you have no idea the sense of self importance they carry with them. It's a God complex - "I save lives, so get out of my FUCKING way, you worthless turd". Even though the E&R and post-op nurses save way more lives than they do, the nurse is relegated to a personal slave who OWES limitless respect to his lordliness. I think this is an EXCELLENT response - yes, it's puerile, but it's exactly that level of childish egotism that we deal with every day, and even if it's FORCING them to be civil when they're really not at heart, it still puts the bastards in their place. Just a little bit.

With BOFH and PHB stereotypes well-known to /. , I would have thought a little more understanding would be forthcoming. But no, the "IT boys" long for such parity with their medical counterparts, and make jokes about us "bitches" and "lowly technicians". You know what - I hope one of our doctorly lords fucks up your med prescriptions next time you're in recovery - see how much you appreciate the attentiveness of us "weenie slaves" then. And, yes, go suck your own cock, you humourless, anonymous waste of breathing space.

Re:Just wanna say

[ColdWetDog]

Won't work, every time I try it I get:

'sudo' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.

I hate Windows sometimes.

Re:Just wanna say

[EdIII]

Won't work, every time I try it I get:

'sudo' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.

I hate Windows sometimes.

I believe that is because in this particular analogy on Slashdot, Windows represents the woman.

Re:Just wanna say

[xmundt]

Greetings and Salutations;
          While I sense a certain amount of repressed anger in this post, my recent experience of spending four days in hospital tend to re-enforce the overall view of the ER doctors. While I have no complaints about the technical competency of the doctor who sealed off the seven ulcers in my esophagus, trying to get him to discuss my illness and ways that I could deal with it was like trying to pull up a manhole on the road with a screwdriver! I was left with the impression that he considered talking to me to be a waste of time, both because I was obviously too old and stupid to understand anything he said about the state of my body, and, that it would be a waste of time to discuss long-term treatment with me.
            I will say, though, that the nurses and technicians that I interacted with over that four day period were top notch. They provided excellent care, and, interacted with me as if I was actually a valuable human, and, dealt with the terribly chaotic schedule of an intensive care wing with good humor and a positive attitude. Actually, the only problem I had was that I have terrible veins in my hands and arms (small, buried deep, and, with a huge tendency to slither away or go flat when a needle gets near them), so, the techs that came in to get blood samples had QUITE a challenge. I was fairly sure that after the first day, they were down there drawing straws, to see who got the short one and had to come poke me.

Re:Just wanna say

[delinear]

I completely agree about the egotism of many doctors, or the attitude that they see their job as treating the illness rather than informing the patient - I have both first hand experience of this (lots of time in hospital as a kid and a partner who is a nurse). Having said that, this is just indicative of the wider problem that the attitude of doctors generally stinks (there are some great doctors of course, but either I've been incredibly unlucky in my dealings with them, or the good ones are woefully under represented in the numbers employed), and this initiative isn't likely to improve on that at all. I don't know what the answer is, but it's certainly not forcing them to be "courteous" on a form, that's just going to further entrench the attitude issues - you only have to read the comments of the doctor in the summary to see that happening already - and possibly put patient welfare at risk (not to mention wasting money at a time when managers are just looking for an excuse to slash costs).

Re:Just wanna say

[Darkman, Walkin Dude]

Words are just words

Yeah, see that culture, society, technology, history, freedom of expression, everything that makes us human there? Thats all made up of words. I never understood those who say "ah its just words" - there is, at the end of the day, no other power besides words.

Re:Just wanna say

[pcolaman]

This is the UK we're talking about here. Healthcare is controlled by the government. You are thinking in (soon to be not, if the ultra liberals get their way) US Medical terms.

Re:Just wanna say

[wisty]

There's plenty of problems like this in hospitals. Doctors don't know what things cost, so they tick all the boxes without considering the cost-benefits.

But this is not the solution. Wasting doctors time to make them effectively "pay" for the tests is stupid.

Instead, they should include a rough estimate of the costs on the form. "Expedited treatment" should include "$30" (or whatever is roughly appropriate) next to it, so the doctor can judge how much it would cost. That way, they can make an informed decision without wasting any time.

Re:Just wanna say

[digitig]

Better still, print it on the form. That way patients' lives won't be endangered by the human error of forgetting to stamp it. It's always better to design the possibility of risky human error out of the system.

Re:Just wanna say

[somersault]

Agree. Yes, a lot of Doctors - especially surgeons apparently - have "God complexes" (source: a good friend who's been a Doctor for 2 or 3 years now). While it can be a negative thing, it's also good for these guys to actually have confidence in their abilities.

You need good skills and confidence to perform a difficult operation. I'm not saying that they should be justified in treating everyone else like shit, but forcing them to write "please" on a form is just being puerile. It serves absolutely no purpose other than to waste time and endanger patients. If you don't like the type of person that tends to become a Doctor, or perhaps how being a Doctor affects a person's ego (I'm guessing it's a bit of both), then don't work in a hospital..

I have to admit that in my IT support role I'm probably as guilty as the aforementioned Doctors sometimes with the way I think of people who know nothing about computers. I do often try to explain things to people though, and answer even "stupid" questions.

Re:Just wanna say

[meerling]

Actually it can often be worse than that, it's known to be disingenuous and tends to degrade the value of actual politeness.

Also, saying please tends to indicate a non-binding request for compliance.
If my doctor wants to run a blood test (and the I the patient don't say "screw you"), the other hospital personnel don't get to say no.
It's totally non-negotiable on their part, even if he's the biggest asshole in the hospital.
Hell, it's not even direct communication, it's a written NOTE.

It's just not bloody professional.

Re:Just wanna say

[confused one]

How about: 'runas /user:Administrator "get me a blood test"'

Re:Just wanna say

[fireylord]

There's plenty of problems like this in hospitals. Doctors don't know what things cost, so they tick all the boxes without considering the cost-benefits.

The Doctors are the people directing the medical care of patients, why should they become accountants?

This is the NHS, care is free at the point of use, no medical insurance or patients' money issues are meant to be cosidered by the medical staff. If there is an issue with funding for services that is up to the hospital management to deal with, not the administration department.

It's an obvious attempt at rationing care services, and yes if overnight bloods haven't been done when a doctor has stipulated needing them done for specific patients due to a clinical need for that patient then patient welfare is put at risk!

Re:Just wanna say

[fireylord]

here we go with the rightwing antiprovidingdecenthealthcaretothosethatcannotaffordit slant!

do not use this to politicise the us situation (like it needs any more of that!) The situation is chalk and cheese.

Re:Just wanna say

[BasilBrush]

Yes, in the UK they don't confuse a patient (someone who needs medical attention) with a customer (someone who can pay for product or service). Before the 1940s, we used to have sick people worrying about how they could afford to see a doctor. But we moved beyond that.

The US hasn't moved beyond it yet. They spend 2.5 times as much on healthcare per capita, yet still don't manage the universal coverage that the UK does.

The amazing thing for those of us outside America is not how the US healthcare industry has so successfully lobbied government over the years so that they can continue to squeeze profits out of the sick. It's how they've managed to lobby so many of the population to believe it's best too.

Re:Just wanna say

[Jedi Alec]

Nah, that is not how it works. Being able to tell the difference between someone just blurting out the usual or someone trying to make a genuine effort to be courteous is something almost all human beings are capable of, and I can say from personal experience that it both works and is very rewarding. Who cares if you don't know the girl ringing up your groceries? Make her smile, brighten her day for a few seconds and your own will be that much better for it.

Doesn't cost anything and massively improves the mood of both yourself and all those around you.

Re:Just wanna say

[Chitlenz]

I have spent a LOT of time (like omg just too many hours to count) designing medical software, and I have to agree with this guy... these MDiety suckers can be the most arrogant people on the planet. They just look right over patients as a statistic.

I'm willing to allow that some guys just really can't deal very well with people, but even that does NOT excuse their dealings with staff. Some of these folks are mindblowingly self centered jerks, and see even praising their office folks as somehow beneath them. I do think that trying to enforce a 'please' policy is fairly dumb, but at the same time I think it is important to remember that typically people who don't have to be forced to say 'please' don't have this kind of problem in the first place (i.e. the guy who already knows and acknowledges the lab staff and works with them in reasonable ways can probably leave this kind of shit off anyway and have it be presumed...).

Seriously, if you take the worst BOFH in history and add a 500k/year salary you get a typical surgeon.

Re:Just wanna say

[AlecC]

They are the only people competent to judge the cost/benefit of the tests/treatments they want. The alternative is to have accountants with no medical knowledge making this decision.

NHS funds are not a bottomless bucket. Yes, care is free at the point of use. But the total care available is finite. If money is wasted on unnecessary treatments, then other, more necessary, treatments will get cut.

Since the demand for medical services is infinite but the supply is finite, there will always be rationing in the NHS. You may not like it, but, like the Second Law of Thermodynamics, you cannot avoid it. What you can change is where rationing appears. If you hide it in one place it will pop up in another. Much better to have it out in the open than to have it done by secret conclaves of consultants or the blind workings of an administrative machine not designed for the purpose.

Re:Just wanna say

[xelah]

The Doctors are the people directing the medical care of patients, why should they become accountants?

They don't need to become accountants, but all spending in the NHS in one area takes it away from another. Spend more time or money on one test, there's less left for another. Spend more on drugs, there's less for tests. More on tests, less for nurses. More on nurses, less for something else, etc. Decisions on what the limited budget and limited staff time is spent on have to be made, balancing different possible uses for best clinical effect. Who would you rather do it? Accountants or doctors?

(OK, false simplification, it has to be made in many places by many people doing many different jobs at many levels, but you can't simply say 'doctors should never care about the resources they're using'. Doctors shouldn't be adding up figures in their head to see if they can afford the test from their budget, but they should have some idea of what's expensive and what's not).

It's an obvious attempt at rationing care services, and yes if overnight bloods haven't been done when a doctor has stipulated needing them done for specific patients due to a clinical need for that patient then patient welfare is put at risk!

Health care must be rationed somehow. Spend 100% of GDP on health care and someone somewhere will want more. The NHS can not remove all health risk, but it must try to remove as much as it can with it's budget. You can't do that by labelling everything top priority. I doubt the world can be divided in to 'clinical need for overnight results' and 'no clinical need' anyway, even it it's sometimes obvious. To a doctor filling in tick-boxes on a form in a busy environment, ticking a box marked 'urgent' is an easy and safe (in a CYA and personal pride in outcomes way) thing to do. Doing it when it's not necessary will come at the expense of other patients' care. Getting hospitals and doctors, collectively, to balance things the right way is not an easy problem.

But making them write 'please' is still just a plain stupid way to try to do it. Assuming it's even true, and not just that one uppity nurse or technician did it once on his own initiative.

Re:Just wanna say

[stonewallred]

Agreed. Just a few seconds of your time and it costs nothing. And the next time you come in, your bread won't be placed in the bottom of the bag with a gallon of milk on top of it to hold it in place. Or the waitress will make sure you coffee cup stays full and your order is hot and right. Or the salesman will point you away from the expensive "x" and towards the equal quality "y" which is a lot cheaper. Funny what a kind word will get you.

Re:Just wanna say

[AVryhof]

I would imagine being an ER doctor is a lot like being an Emergency Repair technician. The best at getting the job done quick and moving on to the next, but not the best to explain what happened. I bet the reason most ER doctors don't want to talk to you is because they want to finish the job and get to the next patient. (I'm always hearing about the ERs around here being packed solid from people waiting 8-10 hours to get in)

On the other hand, the nurses probably have a little more time to talk a bit and tell you what might help. If you want to talk to a doctor, schedule a regular visit with your family doctor. Chances are though, that they will tell you the same things a nurse will.

Re:Just wanna say

[arielCo]

Oh, where are my mod points now. RIght, they're waiting for the next high ratio of Apple and Idle stories.

Yes, so often they are rude out of haste. They tend to be overworked and have a sense of "get the important done, delegate the rest" floating inside their skull the whole time.

Re:Just wanna say

[fireylord]

They are the only people competent to judge the cost/benefit of the tests/treatments they want. The alternative is to have accountants with no medical knowledge making this decision.

As opposed to medical staff who have not great understanding of fincancial matters? It's a difficult paradox to solve

NHS funds are not a bottomless bucket. Yes, care is free at the point of use. But the total care available is finite. If money is wasted on unnecessary treatments, then other, more necessary, treatments will get cut.

A little background, i live not far from the hospital in question, i used to live in the town the hospital is based in. There was a plan to cut the number of hospitals/care facilities in our local area due to budget constraints. 3 hospitals were under threat of at least partial closure. Thanks to the inevitable local outcry in all 3 areas all 3 hospitals remained open, when honestly there is scant funding for this.
The administration of this hospital is handling things poorly however if their criterion for rationing what could be vital patient care is based on a doctor's grammar.

Since the demand for medical services is infinite but the supply is finite, there will always be rationing in the NHS. You may not like it, but, like the Second Law of Thermodynamics, you cannot avoid it. What you can change is where rationing appears. If you hide it in one place it will pop up in another. Much better to have it out in the open than to have it done by secret conclaves of consultants or the blind workings of an administrative machine not designed for the purpose.

Sorry but this is just nonsensical, risking lives and health by implementing daft policies is not how the NHS controls the fincancial constrains upon it, your analogy is utterly irrelevant to the case!

Re:Just wanna say

[digitig]

Then have a "priority" tick box, rather than expecting the doctor (under huge pressure) to remember to use a magic incantation.

Re:Just wanna say

[lena_10326]

Doctors don't know what things cost, so they tick all the boxes without considering the cost-benefits.

Do you really want to be the patient who gets the absolute bare minimum of tests? Every single time? People complain about doctors issuing the gamut of tests but when they become the patient it's suddenly a different story.

Re:Just wanna say

[ArcherB]

There's plenty of problems like this in hospitals. Doctors don't know what things cost, so they tick all the boxes without considering the cost-benefits.

Wait 'till it's "free".

Re:Just wanna say

[hedwards]

And that somehow makes it OK to be dickish yourself? Granted from what I gather this story isn't true, but still somebody else being childish and immature is hardly going to result in the world being better. At work I from time to time get to deal with CEOs people who think that they're important outside their company. Let me tell you, at least with doctors they realize on some level that they have to work with these people again. Whereas CEOs tend to forget that they're nothing outside of their company.

If you really want to have some lulz, just try to tell them no.

Re:Just wanna say

[Chrisq]

Well, thank you very much. I really wanted to know that the cheery thank-you was just a calculated move to get a return. Please don't bother next time.

Re:Just wanna say

[icebraining]

Except the health care act is very different from the NHS system.

Re:Just wanna say

[hedwards]

But for one thing, the tests are done anyways, just placed at the bottom of the list. And secondly, this is medicine, it's not fucking grammar school. Placing people arbitrarily at the bottom of the que because of a minor manners issue is puerile and potentially damaging to the patients. When my mother was needing surgery a decade back, she was asked if she wanted an excellent surgeon or one that had good bedside manners. She made the decision that most people do that she wanted an excellent surgeon. Perhaps it shouldn't be viewed that way, but as long as manners aren't required for excellence the lack of manners is going to have to be tolerated to a point.

Re:Just wanna say

[Qzukk]

I was left with the impression that he considered talking to me to be a waste of time

This is probably because there's another dozen patients literally dying to see him, and stuff like "what should I do about my disease" is best left to your primary care doctor who should ideally know all the drugs you're on and all your allergies and your complete medical history and have 15 minutes to discuss this stuff with you without being pre-empted by some guy getting hit by a car.

Re:Just wanna say

[Golddess]

They cost me little, and get me lots.

I'm confused. Are you saying that your "greetings, thank-yous, pleases, goodbyes and how are yous?" are or are not token words exchanged in set formulas? Because if that's not an admission that they are (you're only doing it because it gets you something, not because it's a nice thing to do), then I don't know what is.

Re:Just wanna say

[krypes]

But will the blood tests have super cow powers?

Re:Just wanna say

[laughingcoyote]

If I asked you to do a favor, like spelling "your" properly since this is not a teenage SMS message, would it help if I said please?

Re:Just wanna say

[Golddess]

On the opposite end, my mother spent a lot of time telling me to "just say you're sorry", and now, sometimes it feels like it has no meaning.

Re:Just wanna say

[Binestar]

If this is what happens then you aren't doing it right. Common courtesy is very easy to distinguish from sarcasm or indifference. Make eye contact, smile, etc. It is worth it.

Re:Just wanna say

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen. I was the patient right behind you who had both legs crushed in a terrible construction accident. While you were trying to chat up the ER doc about your condition, I was busy losing both my legs. WTF is wrong with you idiots. ER doctors are NOT there to chat. Make a freaking appointment with another Doctor or ask a nurse.

Re:Just wanna say

[Lumpy]

No I want to be the patient that get's the competent doctor that knows what he is doing instead of being lazy and taking a shotgun approach.

Re:Just wanna say

[Lumpy]

CANCEL OR ALLOW?

Re:Just wanna say

[Ritchie70]

The "How's it going?" drives me crazy.

If I ask someone how they are, it's because I either 1) care or 2) know they've got something going on and it's the right thing to do. (I honestly don't care that deeply, for example, about how their kid is doing, but if I know the kid has been projectile vomiting for the last two days, I really should ask.) Then I wait for an answer.

I finally realized that "How's it going?" is equivalent to "hi." That makes my life a lot better at work as people "how's it going" me as I walk down the hall. I had been trying to answer them!

Personally, I try to preempt with a "hi" or "good morning" instead and their name. And I don't even bother trying to answer the question of my status unless they stop and look like they want an answer, because I now know they don't care.

Re:Just wanna say

[c6gunner]

This is the UK we're talking about here. Healthcare is controlled by the government.

Ok, so we can rephrase his comment to:

Of course, this will end when a bureaucrat complains about a delayed blood test...

Re:Just wanna say

[c6gunner]

The amazing thing for those of us outside America is not how the US healthcare industry has so successfully lobbied government over the years so that they can continue to squeeze profits out of the sick. It's how they've managed to lobby so many of the population to believe it's best too.

Well, as someone "outside of America", I can say that the amazing thing to me is how governments have successfully lobbied so much of the population into believing that 6 hour lineups and the emergency room and 8 month waits for a specialist are a GOOD thing.

Re:Just wanna say

[demonlapin]

The MRI is back, here take these 2 asprin and this $6800 MRI bill, and my $2600 bill for the 4 hours you were here even though I looked at you for 15 minutes total.

Ah, so this is why you hate physicians. Are you sure those bills weren't from the hospital? There is a difference.

Doctors are very free with your money.

Well, yeah. You seem to think that your headache is an emergency; who am I to disagree with you? If you walk in and tell me you're having the worst headache of your life it's negligent of me not to try to diagnose and treat it - sometimes that involves an MRI. You can always say no and walk out the door, but you'll find it hard to sue if you do.

Re:Just wanna say

[u17]

No, but it would help if you said "plz".

Re:Just wanna say

[SanityInAnarchy]

No American hospital ever has to worry about whether an insurance company (or uninsured patient) will pay for a procedure or not.

Mostly because the truly uninsured, those who are actually incapable of paying, are paid for by the public anyway. If you truly want to keep healthcare a private industry, stop funding emergency rooms and start turning people away at the door because they don't have an insurance card.

If you don't like that, maybe you could look at the actual economics here: Proper medical care results in fewer emergency-room visits. If the public is going to pay for someone's healthcare anyway, it costs less in public money, not more, if you can keep it from becoming an emergency.

Re:Just wanna say

[natehoy]

What is this "E and R" of which you type? Or do you mean "ER" (Emergency Room)?

Yes, I agree that doctors can be dickheads. At which point they should receive some form of consequence that does not involve withholding medical information that they have asked for. Start a "Wall Of Shame" at your hospital, or a "I didn't like it when you..." policy that requires that the doctors sit down with the staff they offended at a later date, hear the staff out, and hopefully apologize.

If your doctors are asshats, forcing them to write a word that has no meaning to them onto a form isn't going to magically engage a friendliness faerie and make them into Doctor Care Bear. It's going to make them into the same discourteous asshat they already are, with just another excuse to believe that the people they work with are childish idiots.

Don't force false courtesy on a form and make the patient the one who suffers when the doctors ignore it. It won't do a bit of good, it just adds what the doctors will consider needless bureaucratic nonsense to the form.

"Please" put on a form when it is a requirement of filling out the form is meaningless, and everyone in that office has to know that. It won't actually change the doctor's level of courtesy in the real world.

Re:Just wanna say

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, totally agree with this comment.

Quite simply, if you save lives using your skill then you are more useful than someone that takes your money for the burger you've just purchased. It must be frustrating for such skilled people to be expected to do the after care.

Nurses can deal with a lot now, then if they don't know they ask a doctor and if / when you need an operation you would consult a surgeon. I assume the surgeon would have told the other medical staff exactly how to treat you after the operation, as well as things to look out for. If not I can see a problem but I can't see that would be the case.

Re:Just wanna say

[bakawolf]

Because it's still the same IN America. Only you get to pay for the privilege.

Re:Just wanna say

[Ksevio]

This is just going to lead to sheets for test requests that have the word "Please" pre-printed on them.

Re:Just wanna say

[hduff]

I hope one of our doctorly lords fucks up your med prescriptions next time you're in recovery - see how much you appreciate the attentiveness of us "weenie slaves" then. And, yes, go suck your own cock, you humourless, anonymous waste of breathing space.

Not a people person, are you? Your patients would get better care from Ted Bundy than from you.

Re:Just wanna say

[maxume]

If you follow this line of reasoning, the only way to be genuine is to never notice the impact that it has.

Re:Just wanna say

[cowscows]

Everyone's got problems. That's not an excuse to be a dick to people.

Re:Just wanna say

[chooks]

As someone in the medical profession, when you get tired/rushed/etc... you lose one of two things:

1. Compassion
2. Ability

Guess which one kills people or gets you sued when lost?

Re:Just wanna say

[Em Emalb]

Wow.

I guess I am different from "most geeks" in that a quick "How's it going" is easily answered with a single word: "Good" or "alright" or "bad" or whatever.

No, they're not asking you to spill the beans about how you're actually doing, they're merely greeting you.

There is absolutely no difference between "how's it going" and "hi", to...I'm guessing here...approx. 99% of the population.

Geeks are weird when considering the general population at large. (Myself included, I have my own idiosyncrasies, just not this one.)

Re:Just wanna say

[Killjoy_NL]

True enough, but when you have the responsibility over peoples lives, then I do not mind some dickishness as the doc concentrates on the problem instead of being nice.

Re:Just wanna say

[maxume]

I sort of resent it when it is obvious that they have been instructed on what to say; I don't have a problem with the manager coaching them to show interest in providing good service and trying to hire such people, I just don't like it when a supposedly social greeting comes out of their mouth mixed up with an attitude that they feel obligated to do it.

Re:Just wanna say

[GungaDan]

Sounds like a certain anonymous coward has a gigantic inferiority complex.

Re:Just wanna say

[cowscows]

Being polite does not take any extra time/work/concentration. It's something that if you make even the littlest bit of effort towards, it quickly becomes second nature and automatic.

I'd prefer to be treated in a hospital where the doctors and their nurses don't have such a silly angst towards each other. People who aren't completely miserable while at their jobs tend to do better work.

Re:Just wanna say

[Killjoy_NL]

Also true, but there is a difference between acting like a prick and being polite.

I agree with you (except for your policies on ducks) :)

Re:Just wanna say

[nottheusualsuspect]

Utter nonsense.
I don't remember who exactly said it, but "People... What a bunch of bastards" fits perfectly into out society. There are two restaurants in our town that aren't manned by damn surly wait-staff who think that they're getting a tip when I can't get a refill. (Or a clean fork, but I suppose that's my fault for not getting off of my lazy ass and washing it myself)


Get off my lawn.

Re:Just wanna say

[Rakshasa Taisab]

Beats going bankrupt or dying cause you didn't have any line to stand in for 6 hours.

Re:Just wanna say

[pcolaman]

It's a simple truth of what we have to look forward to, if things in the US keep progressing in the direction they are currently moving. Whether it's for better or worse, the more control the gov't has over the medical industry, the more likely bullshit like this is to occur.

Re:Just wanna say

[geekoid]

If you say please and thank you out of habit, they have no meaning. you might as well replace it with ACK.

If the lab technicians our overworked, maybe putting up a barrier that ol;y risks patients isn't that answer?

Maybe the need more lab technicians?

I was in the medical industry for years and no one could ever tell me any logical reason on why they all worked stupid ass schedules.

Re:Just wanna say

[BasilBrush]

I can say that the amazing thing to me is how governments have successfully lobbied so much of the population into believing that 6 hour lineups and the emergency room and 8 month waits for a specialist are a GOOD thing.

You clearly haven't been living in Britain for the last decade, haven't needed treatment in that time, or else you're just trolling. There are no 8 month waits to see a specialist. For any medical problem you have a right to treatment in the worse case within 18 weeks. That's not just seeing a specialist, that's to have the operation or whatever treatment it is you need.

A&E is triaged and varies according to how busy they are. If you are an urgent case they start treating immediately. If you need stitches because you've been fighting on a Friday night whilst drunk, you may be waiting somewhat longer. Last two times I've been to A&E, both non-serious, the patient has been seen in about 30 minutes. Last time I needed an operation, again not too serious, it took a month and a half from first visit to my GP to operation done. 2 visits to the specialist and one pre-op included in that time.

Re:Just wanna say

[Martin Blank]

Same here. I physically avoid the worst of them, turning to go through another door when possible to not have to hear them do that while they're typing on their Blackberry and saying it with no emotion.

Pointless small talk irritates me pretty severely. When people speak based on rote patterns, it demonstrates a lack of willingness to care about their immediate circumstances unless they somehow become unusual. I see it most often with a few friends who open every conversation with "How are you?" (or worse, in text or IM, "how ru"). I cringe before responding to them, though I try to head it off when I can by responding with something like, "What's on your mind?" if they start the conversation, or by trying to jump ahead to the point of the conversation if I'm starting it. I know that they use that question by rote because I could have had a conversation with them an hour prior and they will still ask. This can happen -- and has happened -- four times in one day. I have tried explaining this to them, but it never lasts more than a few days before they fall back into their old patterns.

I don't do this with people with whom I rarely speak, as the odds are that they don't know for certain how I am. Even those who can track me on Facebook don't get anything more than I'm willing to share in public, so they may be lacking the whole picture.

One of these days when someone asks me how I am, instead of returning the expected responses, I'm going to go Marvin on them and tell him about the pain all down my left side, and continue on from there. If he protests, I'm going to ask him why he asks the question if he doesn't care to know the actual answer.

Re:Just wanna say

[c6gunner]

You clearly haven't been living in Britain for the last decade, haven't needed treatment in that time, or else you're just trolling. There are no 8 month waits to see a specialist. For any medical problem you have a right to treatment in the worse case within 18 weeks. That's not just seeing a specialist, that's to have the operation or whatever treatment it is you need.

Awesome - maybe you can send some doctors and politicians to Canada so they can show the clowns here how to do it right. Meanwhile, I'd just be happy with a private option.

Last two times I've been to A&E, both non-serious, the patient has been seen in about 30 minutes.

The only time I've waited 30 minutes was when I walked into the ER with an arterial bleed that was spraying like a water fountain. Every other time, I've had to wait at LEAST 3 hours.

Last time I needed an operation, again not too serious, it took a month and a half from first visit to my GP to operation done. 2 visits to the specialist and one pre-op included in that time.

I booked an appointment with a dermatologist about a month and a half ago. I won't get to see him until October.

Re:Just wanna say

[WiiVault]

Wow thats very cynical. There is nothing wrong with noting the benefits of a healthy friendly workplace. Some people find the negative in everything!

Re:Just wanna say

[Moofie]

You can not control the world, but you can control the way you treat people.

I don't think that people are a bunch of bastards, because they don't act like that around me, because I treat them like people, not bastards.

It's not that complicated.

Re:Just wanna say

[Moofie]

I'm not going to keep track of the misanthropes. If you don't like common courtesy, tough on you.

Re:Just wanna say

[Moofie]

So you're saying that it's only OK to be nice to people if it hurts me to do so? That doesn't make any sense.

I'm not advocating altruism. (I don't think there's any such thing.) I'm saying that even if I derive benefit from treating people kindly, I'm still treating people kindly.

It's not a zero sum.

Re:Just wanna say

[Ritchie70]

I do just say "fine" or "alright" or whatever.

By the time I get that single word out they're practically out of sight.

If you mean "hello, I'm acknowledging your presence" then say "hi" or "hello" or "good morning" or "fuck off."

If you ask me "how's it going" stick around for the half second it takes to hear my "fine."

Re:Just wanna say

[Golddess]

So you're saying that it's only OK to be nice to people if it hurts me to do so?

The only way what I said could possibly mean that is if doing something "because it's a nice thing to do" is somehow detrimental to the doer.

But I don't think that's what you mean.

Also, I seem to have read more in cyp43r's post than was actually there, seeing an implied "in order to get something" that wasn't actually there.

Re:Just wanna say

[Moofie]

I guess my point is, my behavior doesn't need to be altruistic in order to be genuine.

Re:Just wanna say

[Lunix Nutcase]

What ink?

Re:Just wanna say

[debpcia]

I am currently employed as an ER nurse in a moderately-sized city. While in nursing school, I worked as an ER tech. My first career was electrical engineering (hardware and software design)...and my very first job was working as a "grunt" in a warehouse! ER doctors - and other physicians - run the gamut just like nurses, techs, engineers, general laborers, etc...some are arrogant, but many are kind and considerate with other staff and patients alike. If that story is true, I do think it is unjustifiable to refuse to lab tests because the doctor didn't say please. Patient care should not be compromised!

Re:Just wanna say

[Hurricane78]

Let me tell you something you will never experience yourself, but hospital doctors can be some of the biggest ego-centric pricks you will never meet - really, you have no idea the sense of self importance they carry with them. It's a God complex - "I save lives, so get out of my FUCKING way, you worthless turd".

I can say that this was true for every single doctor I or anyone I know ever met. I don’t have to rely on lies or insults. As the reality is worse than what I would come up with. Psychology literally has a field dealing with doctors’ got complex.

And the worst thing is that it actually kills people.
Because most docs don’t care much for further training. And they think what they know is a indisputable absolute truth.
But it’s worse with what they not know. Because if they don’t know something, they act as if it does not exist. And even get angry if you ever dare to question them. Even if you got real physical proof. Even when you have 50 years of experience with 30,000 patients, and lots of studies to prove it.
Nooo, he’s god, if he doesn’t know it, it does not exist. Even if that means that people are in horrible pain or die.

One example is to ask your doctor about healing your auto-immune disease. Like allergies or asthma caused by pollen.
They will tell you that “There is no cure”. Not “I don’t know of a cure yet.” No. “There is none”. Period. And most patients, not knowing better, have to believe that.
Now I personally know people who got rid of their auto-immune diseases. The trick was a change in diet. Back to unprocessed food. Nothing that was wrecked by heat (especially dangerous: animal proteins). No extreme concentrations or imbalances. Everything else did stay the same. Food got tastier (heat also kills flavors). And cheaper (processing costs money). And it went away. Completely.
But as soon as they ate bad again, it came back.
Yet, not a single doc accepted to even mentally process this fact.

Noo, that would have threatened his inner model of him being perfect and a god!
We can’t have that!

Really, from a psychological standpoint, they are mentally insane. Not on a extreme level. But still enough to justify a therapy.

Not credible

[Anonymous Coward]

The source for this is an "odd news" blog, whose source is a "newspaper" called The Sun. You may have heard of it. National Enquirer anyone?

Re:Not credible

[TouchAndGo]

Agreed, I can't find any other source for this news, and it's pretty bizarre to be quoting a tabloid as a source. Unless you're the Men in Black.

Re:Not credible

[AndrewBC]

Also amusing is that only a single doctor would say anything about this, and only under the cover of anonymity.

C'mon, let's be realistic please.

Re:Not credible

[cyphercell]

if there's an experience deficit from the previous tech to this one and there was budget for a second tech then the doctor might have a point. Or it's just garden variety melodrama you could hear at the coffee shop.

Re:Not credible

[delinear]

It's pretty common knowledge, though, that any time The Sun says "anonymous source" they actually mean "made up by a newsdesk monkey". This is one of the UK tabloids that specialises in invading people's privacy as a matter of course, but suddenly, whenever they need a juicy quote to incite a reaction, they're all about protecting the integrity of their sources.

Re:Not credible

[digitig]

That bit is credible. There's a culture of bullying in the NHS, and doctors are not above it.

Re:Not credible

[makomk]

It's pretty common knowledge, though, that any time The Sun says "anonymous source" they actually mean "made up by a newsdesk monkey".

I think this is true of pretty much all the UK tabloid newspapers...

Re:Not credible

[natehoy]

Then it won't matter when the space whelk eats the earth, which, since I saw it on the Weekly World News cover as a child, has to be due any day now.

Until then, though, we can still ask our doctors to be courteous. After all, we all know they are using pictures of varicose veins as treasure maps (also as seen on the Weekly World News cover).

I don't know how things work in the UK

[logjon]

But in the US all it would take is one catastrophic delay and there would be millions of dollars in lawsuits.

Re:I don't know how things work in the UK

[Rusty KB]

I dunno, I'm anxious to come and visit the US as soon as humanly possible. From this side of the pond it looks all it would take is pretty much anything you can scream loud enough about and there would be millions of dollars in lawsuits. I can't wait to visit your great country. My lungs are big, my throat is strong, and I can scream like a cicada. I'm gonna be rich!

Re:I don't know how things work in the UK

[mOdQuArK!]

Unfortunately, the people making most of the money are the lawyers filing the lawsuits "on behalf" of their clients, not necessarily the clients.

Re:I don't know how things work in the UK

[repapetilto]

Scream too loud and youll learn you lesson

Re:I don't know how things work in the UK

[Rusty KB]

I guess my vocal cord *could* get damaged if I scream too loud, but I'm not really sure what I'd learn from that. Maybe use oral lubrication next time? I don't know, need to find out!

Re:I don't know how things work in the UK

[yotto]

You better watch out. If you scream too much you'll get sued.

Re:I don't know how things work in the UK

[smash]

Unfortunately, it would appear that companies in the US deem it necessary to have lawyers on the payroll on a permanent basis.

Re:I don't know how things work in the UK

[delinear]

The government should have warned you about the dangers of screaming too loud - I smell a juicy lawsuit...

Re:I don't know how things work in the UK

[Loomismeister]

Companies do that everywhere fool!

What the fuck is this

[Anonymous Coward]

Do these fuckers not know of House?

Also they're *doctors* writing documents for work. You don't need to add shit like please, thank you, or draw hearts instead of dots for your is for work. People are supposed to do things because it's their job to do things.

"Excuse me Mr. Safety Inspector, why didn't you inspect this stuff?"

"No one told me please. Accountability Motherfucker, do you know it?"

Yeah, that's not gonna stand up in a court of law. Or maybe it will.

Re:What the fuck is this

[cyp43r]

House is a dick. That is the twist: the doctor is a big jerk that gets away with it because of his incredible gifts.

Re:What the fuck is this

[Barrinmw]

We all know House would be fired within a day from any real hospital, he just gets some extra leeway cause he banged the Director.

Re:What the fuck is this

[Cryacin]

In reality, such a person would not successfully exist. Believe me.

Genius has its limits, but stupidity has no bounds. Also never piss off stupid people, there's just so many more of them than us. Furthermore, don't argue with an idiot. They'll just pull you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Finally, if you're a prick who makes enemies at all turns and in every corner, you have no reprieve from prying eyes. Sooner or later, you will make a mistake, and for that brief moment, they will get you.

Re:What the fuck is this

[JWSmythe]

    I tell people, if I ever end up in the hospital and the nurses tell me "He's exactly like Dr. House on TV", I'm going to demand a different doctor. The fucker almost kills every patient he has, and usually saves them at the last minute. They never come out of it well. Invasive brain surgery. Mistreatment with serious chemicals and/or radiation therapy. Etc, etc, etc.

    I want a doctor who will get it right the first time, without a huge ego and an irresponsibility streak a mile wide.

Re:What the fuck is this

[zippthorne]

The incredible gift of... being wrong 6 times out of 7 and almost killing every patient?

He got freakin' chimerism wrong on a patient that had two different-colored pupils...

Oh Please!

[iamhassi]

while I'm all for manners, refusing vital blood tests when doctors forget to put the word "please" on weekend requests just seems damn right stupid and dangerous. How can any manager sit there and support this measure?

This sounds like something out of a Dilbert cartoon or from Office Space, I could just see him saying "Yeah... you didn't put please on your TPS reports... so I'm going to need you to come in Saturday, m'kay?"

Re:Oh Please!

[starfishsystems]

They probably also don't do tests when the patient has not been clearly identified on the requisition.

In other words, this is just another among many procedural details that professionals understand have to be followed. They may or not personally agree with the value of some of those details, but they comply anyway. It goes with the job.

Writing "please" is considerably less of a hardship than filling out a justification of why a given procedure has to be done on the weekend, when administrators know that it creates an increased risk of displacing some other procedure that might be more vital.

It's marginally more of a hardship than ticking a checkbox that says "high priority". But I think I could handle it. And it stands to reason that not everything can be a high priority.

Re:Oh Please!

[dark_requiem]

How can any manager sit there and support this measure?

Look carefully, I think you answered your own question...

Re:Oh Please!

[Dumnezeu]

Google should implement this policy. You should have to add "please" at the end of all your search queries.

Re:Oh Please!

[dAzED1]

lately I've just been crossing my fingers and praying to various gods that my search results won't be spam trash result stuffing garbage. I especially love the sites that troll email lists, and repost the emails 2 lines at a time in a sea of ugly web page.

Simply needing to add "please" would be wonderful. I've found myself sneaking searches in over at bing, getting better results, and cursing myself for it.

Re:Oh Please!

[gnasher719]

while I'm all for manners, refusing vital blood tests when doctors forget to put the word "please" on weekend requests just seems damn right stupid and dangerous. How can any manager sit there and support this measure?

Someone put out a warning not to upset stupid people, because there are so many more of them. In the British NHS, it is the managers. There are just so many more managers than anything else. They vastly outnumber people doing the actual work. You could shoot half the people working at the NHS, and if you remove the bodies, nobody would miss them.

Re:Oh Please!

[xous]

This is inexcusable. They are paid to do a fucking job and they should bloody well do it if they don't want to be fired. If I saw that kind of nonsense I wouldn't have stopped until I got the moron fired.

Re:Oh Please!

[malkavian]

Ever worked in the NHS? I have. Many people carry the title "Manager" because of a historic pay band issue. As soon as you reached a certain pay level (circa £30k), you were classed as management, and most of the titles included that. However, many of the "managers" are actually people at the coal face doing a job, and not line managers (the general idea was that when you had responsibility for something, you didn't just turn up and do things by rote, you managed the aspects of a service, planned, and were often autonomous within a wider plan).
That being said, there is a fair bit of waste in the NHS in the administrative wing, because many of the people employed to collate the reports and generate figures don't actually understand data manipulation, and simply do manual work on Excel and Access (because they've never learned any other way, don't want to, and it's one step short of prying those apps from their hands with a crowbar). Not all by any measure; I've seen some highly competent people in those areas, but too many to be comfortable. Yes, it's all a matter of training and architecting. But until recently, not much of the NHS has invested in systems architecture (and it's still very patch in most places).
Overall though, many Trusts really are understaffed in many areas, and running on a shoestring. I'd really advise you to spend some time in the place before throwing around those urban myths. I think you'd get a rude awakening.

Re:Oh Please!

[Dumnezeu]

I'm sorry the mods missed your comment, because I think it is very interesting. Words like "please" and "thanks" will probably give you links to sites with content generated by polite users.

Re:Fire them

[jpkotta]

The administrators are requiring it, not the techs.

Really?

[joshki]

What a ridiculous policy.

Re:Fire them

[Darkness404]

It should be a cut-and-dry case for management though. Workers won't do the job they signed up to do, fire them. It doesn't matter if you were hired to flip burgers, do blood tests, be a code monkey or sort mail. If you don't do the job you were hired to do, you get fired.

Liability Issues?

[ricree]

I have to imagine that this would open the hospital up to some liability issues. The first time someone dies because a test wasn't run in time, I have a hard time seeing a jury accepting "the doctor didn't ask me nice enough" as an excuse for not running the test the doctor ordered.

Re:Liability Issues?

[Lawbeefaroni]

If a patient refuses to write "please" as they die, the death will be refused.

In extreme cases, the Lazarus Engine will be employed.

How could there be any liability issues?

Re:Fire them

[Barrinmw]

Next thing you know, people will start getting fired there if they don't open the door for a lady.

Re:Fire them

[icegreentea]

It doesn't seem like its the technicians who are forcing this through. TFA says it was the management who decided it was a good idea to "ease pressure". Which probably meant that the techies were feeling overworked (they probably are overworked) and complained (not really expecting something like THIS to happen). And instead of doing anything constructive (or maybe they're just all out of money), the management went for some crazy ass stupid idea that somehow past muster.

Pointy Head Boss eh? IT isn't the only place where they exist.

Re:Fire them

[Cryacin]

Or for opening a door for a lady. Depending on which day it is. Remember kids, odds open, evens don't!

Next one

[kikito]

Planes will not be allowed to move until the pilots say "Engage".

Re:Next one

[md65536]

Next after that is an ordering procedure at McDonalds.

As you walk in the place move immediately to your right. The main thing is to keep the line moving. You hold out your money, speak your order in a loud, clear voice, step to the left and receive. It's very important not to embellish on your order. No extraneous comments. No questions. No compliments.

Re:Next one

[eeyoredragon]

I fully support this idea provided pilots have to say it over the intercom.

Anyway, if I were doctor working there, I'd just carry a "please" stamp around with me and stamp anything that wouldn't be invalidated by having the word "please" stamped on it.

If you have a problem with someone treating their co-workers like crap, fire them and skip the bullshit.

Re:Next one

[Stenchwarrior]

And the mouse on the motorcycle will not be able to roll unless he goes "Pb-pb-b-b-b-b. Pb-pb-b-b-b-b".

Doctors caused it, admin enforcing it...

[Wyatt Earp]

Having done alot of chemo and hospital over the years and having a number of doctors in my immediate family (1 heart, 1 gastro, 1 family practice, 1 abdominal) and a doctor turned administrator, I bet the doctors have been jackasses and the hospital administrators pushed this down the throats of the doctors because they'd treated the lab folks like cattle.

I bet there were a ton of meetings about how to balance out increased workload with less staffing and the administrator's solution was "please".

Re:Doctors caused it, admin enforcing it...

[delinear]

Unfortunately the technicians aren't in a position to hire more people. They have to rely on the management to do that. Instead the management come up with a stupid policy (maybe their hearts were in the right place but their heads certainly weren't), probably because they didn't want to spend the money to hire people.

Rubber stamp

[Itninja]

They should just get self-inking rubber stamps that say 'Please'.

Re:Rubber stamp

[Garble Snarky]

Or a "please" checkbox on the bottom of the form...

Re:Rubber stamp

[Kanasta]

why not just have forms with 'please' printed at the end of every line?

The administrators need to get a clue

[mark-t]

They're called written _orders_ for a reason... that is, they have all the justification that is required to simply be followed. While it's all very well and good to want people to be polite, it is no more required that a doctor remember to say please than it is required that air traffic controllers say "please" when directing airplanes.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[NicknamesAreStupid]

That is right. God does not say 'please' or "thank you."

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[oddTodd123]

it is no more required that a doctor remember to say please than it is required that air traffic controllers say "please" when directing airplanes.

You read the book Outliers? Supposedly a Colombian flight crashed in New York and killed everyone on board partly because the pilots were intimidated by the brusk manners of the air traffic controllers.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[dcollins]

"You read the book Outliers? Supposedly a Colombian flight [wikipedia.org] crashed in New York and killed everyone on board partly because the pilots were intimidated by the brusk manners of the air traffic controllers."

First paragraph from the article you link:

8 of 9 crew members and 65 of 149 passengers on board were killed.

Good job with the reading comprehension.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[putaro]

You're supposed to say:

Please try harder to comprehend what you read.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[quantaman]

FTA is sounds like this isn't about politeness as about costs/ordering tests on the weekend. My (heavily extrapolated) understanding of the situation is that doctors work any day of the week, but technicians are more 9-5 Mon-Fri. The administration apparently felt that the doctors weren't considering that technicians generally didn't work weekends (maybe they get overtime then too), thus some tests that could be ignored or left till a weekday were still being ordered on the weekend. The administration tried to stop this by forcing the doctors to write "please", presumably reminding the doctor that it was an inconvenience for the technicians and to consider if it was a test that could wait.

If my interpretation is accurate than the administrators main mistake was in how they reacted to doctors forgetting to write "please". The writing of "please" was just supposed to nag the doctors, so rather than refuse the test if there is no "please" just have the administrator nag the doctor come Monday.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[Idiomatick]

No, he HAS to say it.... please

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[syousef]

They're called written _orders_ for a reason...

The please is implied. As in please do your @#$%ing job, you petty idiot.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[dkf]

The please is implied. As in please do your @#$%ing job, you petty idiot.

OK, but in order for my job to be done correctly, there's a few trifling forms that ought to be filled out. Won't take you more than a few minutes...

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[MadKeithV]

He apologises for the inconvenience, though.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[Anonymous Coward]

You are familiar with Van Halen's condition that a bowl of green M&M's be present back stage for them to perform?

Do you really think it was Van Halen acting out their rockstar egos, or their assurance that someone actually read the specifications (weight limit of stage, total power, etc.) needed for them to perform safely?

This is a simple case of doctors not following policy (even if I agree the policy is kind of idiotic) of numerous other polices I've seen MDs fail at, which include wash your hands between patents, write legibly, write legal orders, etc. I could point you to a study done on incorporating checklists for procedures, with _anyone_ able to stop the procedure immediately and correct the (typically, but not necessarily) MD if the correct steps were not being taken. MDs complained about that has well, but it did reduce errors by over 50%, and hopefully impressed upon others the importance of working as a team.

You are not House. You require the services of numerous disciplines in order to care for the patient. If I can't trust you to follow a simple, one word policy, or better yet, not act like a complete jerk; you should be fired.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

My (heavily extrapolated) understanding of the situation is that doctors work any day of the week, but technicians are more 9-5 Mon-Fri.

Unless the UK's medical system is back in the 1940s, where very little was done on weekends, that hospital should have a lab that can do any critical test any time.

If the admins of Worthing had a brain to share amongst them, they would match the lab staffing to the expected work load - the US was doing it in the 1970s. The two hospitals I worked in then had our hours arranged so shifts overlapped during peak workload.

My Google-fu says. "Worthing Hospital has more than 500 beds and provides a full range of general acute services including maternity, outpatients, A&E and intensive care." A 500-bed hospital with ICU, ER and maternity wards better be full-service 24x7.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[The MAZZTer]

"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'" - Matthew 25:21 (NIV)

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[blai]

How rude. I'm never going to get his blood test orders done.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[demonlapin]

MDs complained about that has well, but it did reduce errors by over 50%

And I'll bet I know why they complained... in every unit there's always one nurse who is the middle manager gone wild that insists on 100% adherence to policy at all times. Patient actively dying? Sorry, since you didn't go scrub first I'm going to throw that central line kit in the trash.

I welcome checklists, because they make me a better doctor. But you also have to know when to throw the checklist away. Good nurses (and I work with some great ones) know when to do that.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[stevie.f]

Very little that isn't urgent happens in UK hospitals at weekends. When my Dad was in hospital with heart problems, almost all tests were scheduled for weekdays although obviously when he was admitted (on a Saturday, if I remember correctly) tests were being done straight away to determine the problem and begin treatment. As soon as he was stable and waiting for test results would be merely an inconvenience as opposed to a danger to his health, tests were only done on weekdays. When I last visited the US I noticed that there is very much a 24/7 culture there, but in some places in England you will be lucky to find much more than a pub or corner shop open on a Sunday. If you happen to live near a supermarket then it will be open for very limited hours. I can imagine that to someone from the US, the idea that much less testing (and almost no non-critical testing) is done on weekends is shocking, but most people here don't seem to have any objection. This is not to say if it is right or wrong, merely to explain the difference and give some cultural background.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Thanks. It's probably the culture thing.

With all the cost-cutting, how does the NHS justify letting expensive lab equipment do nothing, while patients are waiting for tests so they can be properly treated and discharged sooner to make room for others?

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[sjames]

Perhaps at the end of the month, the worst offender should have to wear a name tag reading "Dr. Asshole".

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[shallot]

My (heavily extrapolated) understanding of the situation is that doctors work any day of the week, but technicians are more 9-5 Mon-Fri.

Unless the UK's medical system is back in the 1940s, where very little was done on weekends, that hospital should have a lab that can do any critical test any time.

Sure. They should also have the money to actually pay the lab people for the non-standard working hours, the more expensive arrangement for the hospital and more financially beneficial for the workers. But I'm guessing they have a policy that says the lab people don't get to have that. (After all, they're just a bunch of strange people monkeying around in the basement while the real medical workers actually work on healing the patients, right?) So instead the hospital gets this kind of nonsense.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[geekoid]

That's right. He just rapes you when he want's a kid.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[stevie.f]

I honestly have no idea. I only understand why most people don't see it as surprising or a problem, but it doesn't actually make sense to me either.

Re:The administrators need to get a clue

[mark-t]

But forgetting to say "please" is something that is very, very, VERY easy to do... whether or not it is policy. I sometimes forget to say please at work when I've asked somebody to do something that is required for me to do my job, even though I know that I _always_ should (and I will usually get reminded of the oversight when I have forgotten... a correction that I do not mind in the slightest). I certainly don't mean to forget, of course... it just happens sometimes when I'm more focused on getting a job done than I am on the fact that the people I'm going to depend on to get something done so that I can properly finish my own job are just that - people.

doesn't suprise me one bit

[timmarhy]

this kind of petty crap is exactly why health services around the world suck ass. it starts with doctors who are trained in med school that they are better then everyone else, and treat staff like crap who in turn retaliate with stupid rules of their own. management are usually too busy covering their own arse to take charge and fix the situation.

I worked in a path lab for 3 years, and i saw everything you could imagine right down to someone threatening staff because they weren't allowed to keep a biopsied body part.

the medical field is shitty, never get involved in it.

Re:doesn't suprise me one bit

[mgchan]

are you gonna stick to your guns if you get sick or injured?

believe me, most people in medical school learn that they are NOT better than everyone else. because you take some of the top people out of college and put them in the same class. and then for another 3-6 or more years after medical school there is always someone else ahead of you who you work for.

I am sorry you had a bad experience. as a physician I know that I cannot draw blood as well as a phlebotomist, I can't run an MRI machine better than a trained tech, I don't know the surgical tools as well as a scrub nurse, and I wouldn't have the faintest idea how to run most blood tests or stain path samples. In turn, I don't deride a pharmacist for not knowing details of a disease process or fault a CT tech for calling a code blue for vasovagal syncope. Maybe I'll get frustrated when something isn't done quickly enough, but if I just get an explanation of why it happens and see that the other person is working as hard as I am, I'll understand.

Re:doesn't suprise me one bit

[timmarhy]

not sure what you mean about sticking to my guns if i get sick or injured, I meant stay away as in don't work in the medical field? sometimes staying away from doctors can be good for your health though....

You'd be the exception not the rule if your post is accurate. specialists are really bad for expecting their last minute tests to be done in an impossible time frame.

Re:doesn't suprise me one bit

[JustinRLynn]

Somehow, I imagine there's a very good reason for not letting technicians keep pieces of potentially diseased human tissue...

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[horatio]

Would it kill you to do your fucking job without having to be coddled, you whiny little bitch?

No? Clean out your desk, because I'll find someone else who will. It doesn't mean the doctors treat the staff like shit, but a minimum of doing the tasks you were hired to do is absolutely expected, demanded in exchange for your paycheck. What next? Should the doctor have slip a $5 note with the request? Bullshit. Do. your. fucking. job.

Reminds me of INTERCAL.

[RyanFenton]

INTERCAL is an esoteric programming language meant as a parody of stuffy, arcane programming language requirements. One of its more interesting requirements involves the "PLEASE" statement. As an undocumented feature of the language, the compiler will fail if programs are either too polite, or insufficiently polite - which involves placing the PLEASE keyword in front of statements the correct number of times.

Kind of like here - if the Doctor just peppers all of his written requests with too many PLEASE statements, that's condescending right there - too polite. But insufficient politeness is equally worthy of wrath - all completely nonsensical requirements, dehumanizing the interaction even as they demand for a confusingly artificial subset of human interaction.

Ryan Fenton

N.H.S. Pinafore

[IronClad]

I've seen that N.H.S. Pinafore show before. I can even still hum some of the snappy lyrics.

I hold when diagnosing a disease,
The expression, "if you please",
A particularly gentlemanly tone implants.
And so do my sisters, and my cousins, and my aunts!

Stick close to your desk
And never check a pulse
and you may all be rulers
of our hospitals.

or something like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9-ZZRXBEcM with "please" goodness at 4:00 and 5:40

Just who does this Doctor Dick Deadeye think he is? Doesn't he know that a British lab technician is any man's equal, (excepting, of course, mine).

Re:Fire them

[tsm_sf]

From reading TFA (I know, I know...) it seems like more of a "if you can't be bothered to remember one thing your test couldn't have been that important" idea. No clue if it's an appropriate move, but it does seem like an awful lot of whining for what is essentially a minor procedural change.

Re:Fire them

[z0idberg]

past muster.

The saying is actually "passed muster" as in to pass muster (meaning to be judged acceptable)

Re:Fire them

[Sulphur]

Please, thats Americans, you insensitive clod.

Re:Fire them

[Z34107]

Or for opening a door for a lady. Depending on which day it is

Very true. I err on the side of caution when it comes to holding the door open for people, but some manage to be offended by such a gesture.

I held the door to my dorm for some chick late one night. After hours the doors require you to swipe your student ID to get in. It's a pain, so decent folk don't let the door swing shut after getting the reader to take their ID.

She yelled something about "I can get it myself!" but she was kind of drunk, so I couldn't really understand her. She was angry, though, so I shut the door, and it locked.

Turns out she forgot her ID. I have no idea how long she was standing outside. I think there's a moral in there somewhere.

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[Cryacin]

No manager of skill would ever say that. But every manager of skill would certainly think it.

Re:Fire them

[fireball84513]

Actually, the report said that the policy was, in fact, meant to take the workload off of the technicians by making the doctors really consider whether a blood test was essential. In those respects, I think that the administrators had a really good idea, albeit a tedious and frustrating one. I know that I would be thinking twice about every blood test I ordered if I had to write "please" on every goddamn one. If there is anything I hate, it's being forced to show my appreciation, whether or not it's deserved.

Not sure if this is a true story, but...

[GodfatherofSoul]

This makes me wonder how big of an asshole the doctors had been to force this kind of a policy on them.

Re:Not sure if this is a true story, but...

[thegarbz]

Never underestimate some stupid policies managers can come up with to boost morale for a select few employees.

At my work they just replaced the savoury biscuit jar with a cream biscuit jar to boost morale. Sucks if you're one of about half the people there who don't like to chew on sweets all day at work.

Re:Fire them

[shentino]

Usually it's the customers you aren't supposed to be rude to.

Re:Fire them

[plover]

Yes, the administrators are requiring it, but likely at the behest of the technicians. And the techs are enforcing it by not performing unless the order says "please". Kind of makes a mockery of the term "order" there, too.

I imagine this is going on today.

Original order: "Draw Mr. Smith's blood."
Technician: "Denied, you didn't write the magic word."
Revised order: "Draw Mr. Smith's blood by 9:00, and if you ever question my orders again I'll have your arse sacked."
Technician: "Those are magic words. Here's your lab results."

Re:Fire them

[phantomfive]

In the UK (unlike some other countries with universal healthcare) the doctors are direct employees of the state. This means that whenever there is a budget crunch, the politicians start trying to see whose salary they can cut, and a lot of times it comes down to doctors. This is obviously not ideal. But really when you do come up with the ideal system, let me know.

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[w3woody]

As a matter of fact, yes--in this case it could kill you.

This is simpky made up news

[91degrees]

The Sun has no veracity. I seriously doubt there's any requirement to say "please". Am I accusing a major national newspaper of outright lying?

Yes.

However, what I do believe is that the overworked lab didn't agree with the doctor that these tests had to be done immediately. All doctors always insist that their tests are urgent (and I don't fault them for this) but the lab has to consider priorities.

Re:This is simpky made up news

[GrahamCox]

The Sun has no veracity.[...] a major national newspaper

One part of this is untrue.

Re:This is simpky made up news

[jisatsusha]

Not really, you can be influential and still a liar. Remember this is NewsCorp we're talking about here.

Re:This is simpky made up news

[Marcika]

The Sun has no veracity.[...] a major national newspaper One part of this is untrue.

Which one? They both ring true to me (posting from Britain)...

Remember this is the paper with the highest circulation in the UK; also remember that this is the paper that printed "Straight Sex Cannot Give You AIDS - Official" and "Freddie Starr Ate My Hamster".

Re:This is simpky made up news

[91degrees]

Which part? It is the best selling newspaper in the UK, and has a strong effect on public opinion. I think that qualifies it as a "major" (I'll grant that some people may object to the term "news"-paper here but I don't think that was your point).

As for veracity, here's a website abut the sun's dishonesty.

Re:Fire them

[dcollins]

What part of "Administrators at England's Worthing Hospital are insisting..." did you fail to understand? Great idea, fire the technicians for the stupid ideas from the people who do the hiring/firing/marching orders.

Re:Fire them

[mandolin]

One of the good things about living in Texas is that it is always acceptable to hold the door open for anybody, and more generally than that, it's never impolite to be polite.

Re:socialized healthcare

[koreaman]

Seems like a happy medium would be for the government to pay for healthcare, but for private hospitals and doctors to provide it?

Re:big waste of time

[91degrees]

Doctors have no idea how busy lab staff can be, and they're short staffed on the weekends as well.

And I simply don't believe the bit about having to say "please". It's not true. The Sun lied (again).

Re:Fire them

[Phillip2]

The NHS is not perfect, but generally gives a high standard of care. The free market is not a universal panacea as the banking sector shows.

The other point to remember is that this story came from the Sun. It wouldn't be the first time it has invented a story. The free market in
journalism means saying what people want to believe, rather than what is true.

And in the British Army

[sehlat]

Lieutenant: Sergeant! Take that machine-gun nest!

Sergeant: Sod off! You didn't say "please."

Re:And in the British Army

[delinear]

Nice try, but that's the kind of attitude that causes issues in the first place. A sergeant is below a lieutenant in the chain of command, a doctor is categorically not the manager of a medical technician. If the technician's manager orders him not to do something, it's not the place of a doctor to override that.

Re:And in the British Army

[FuckingNickName]

Which is the problem. Senior medical (doctor and nursing) staff have historically managed junior medical and paramedic staff in the NHS. Then it was discovered that people with a Business Studies degree from Ex-Polytechnic of Bumpton were much easier for government to manipulate as the NHS became a political vehicle for anything from PPP to immigration policy.

Re:Fire them

[Rallion]

Yeah, I would agree. My initial guess was that the administrators saw a morale problem with the techs, and this was their idea to fix it. In fact, if you limit the view to to the techs' perspective, the idea makes sense, and I think that's probably the mistake that they made. Or, perhaps, being administrators and therefore perhaps being more used to dealing with stupid bureaucratic requirements, it never occurred to them that the doctors have more important things to worry about...

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[Kuroji]

I may not be in the medical field, but if any of the people who worked under me said something like that I'd recommend their termination in a heartbeat. When you play with people's lives, you DO. NOT. FUCK. AROUND.

I don't give a good god damn whether they say 'pretty please send me help, I don't feel well' or 'JESUS H SOMEONE IS DYING GET DOWN HERE AND HELP ME YOU MOTHERFUCKERS' because they're going to get help. If you require them to phrase it in a particular way you're in the wrong damned field of work, and if you require someone to say please and thank you you're going to be sadly disappointed.

Welcome to the adult world. We are not children in the first grade. We don't always play nice. We don't get to whine to teacher when someone else doesn't play nice and do exactly what we want. We do what we have to do, and then we can go to the pub and whine to our friends over a beer, or go home to dinner and complain to our family about how horrible the day was.

If you were my supervisor and you were able to fire me with that comment, I can guarantee you I would get your ass fired and get a nice settlement to keep it all out of the news.

That make NO SENSE whatsoever

[aepervius]

Because now the doctor just rubber stamp please everywhere and the workload STAY THE SAME. And ther lab folk are STILL treated like cattle. Now matter you see it , or the justification you might come up, it is a stupid solution, as it does not help workload : it adds workload on doctor (forget a please, and you have to make it yourself, possibly endengering the patient).

Re:Fire them

[ep32g79]

The Free Market(tm) will solve this by introducing the "Please Pad" for doctors to write blood work orders on.

Re:socialized healthcare

[Totenglocke]

Seems like a happy medium would be for the government to pay for healthcare, but for private hospitals and doctors to provide it?

Or you know, people could be responsible for themselves and pay for their own treatment, just like they do for any other good or service....

Re:socialized healthcare

[drsmithy]

Seems like a happy medium would be for the government to pay for healthcare, but for private hospitals and doctors to provide it?

GP is either ignorant or lying. There's nothing preventing you from getting private medical care in the UK if you're prepared to pay for it.

Re:Fire them

[Hognoxious]

It's one of those things that sounds like a good idea when you're in a meeting.

"We're overloaded with weekend test requests".

"Are all weekend requests really necessary?"

"No"

"Then we need to filer them in some way"

"How about picking them at random?" ...

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[Hognoxious]

I'd fire someone for using a word like "abusiveness". No, better idea, I'd fire at him.

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[Macrat]

No manager of skill would ever say that.

Unless they are union.

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[md65536]

expecting the staff to scrape and bow and tug their forelock as they mumble "Yes M'Lord. Right away M'Lord. May it please M'Lord."

If the doctors were expecting the technicians to go out of their way (scrape and bow and tug their forelock, whatever that means... BTW it's the 20th century in the UK too you know; they're not stuck in the dark ages), or if they were asking the technicians to do a personal favor, then perhaps you would have a point.

In fact, by requiring the doctors to say "please", the administration is effectively telling the doctors that the support services they need to be able to do their jobs, are there only as a personal favor that they have to earn, and can be denied on whim. It's about power, and it's disgusting. They ruin the meaning of the word "please" by making it a mandatory formality. Shall the doctors then demand the same of others? Perhaps the patients? To what madness will this lead????

EMS paramedic: Pardon me, doctor, please, sorry, thank you, the patient was involved in a head-on collision and is unconscious and losing a lot of blood, thank you, sorry, thank you.

Doctor: Thank you paramedic, sorry, please, your hair looks good today, thank you, sorry but I'm afraid I cannot operate on this patient, sorry, thank you. If the patient is able to say "please" neither vocally nor in written form, I must follow hospital policy and deny medical treatment. Sorry, please, and thank you.

Also... troll detected. The doctors are the ones effectively being asked to bow, and the doctors are the ones explicitly being required to say please. How did you go from that to thinking the doctors are the ones expecting the technicians to say "may it please m'lord"?

Re:socialized healthcare

[brainiac ghost1991]

It's in one hospital. You can choose which hospital you go to.

Check the reference: The Sun ... hahahaha

[fantomas]

Reference in this article is to "The Sun" newspaper. This is a tabloid paper famous for its poor journalism, topless girls on Page 3, and front page headlines such as "Freddie Starr Ate My Hamster".

Not really considered a real news source in the UK.

Re:Check the reference: The Sun ... hahahaha

[Ginger Unicorn]

Exactly. If I wanted to be trolled by this kind of fucking garbage I'd go out and buy a murdoch shitrag. Don't contaminate my favourite blog with this. "Please".

Solutions

[DynaSoar]

1. Instead, write "This is an order, not a request."

2. Put "Please tell me where you're going to be working next week if these are not done."

3. Write "One of these id for a relative of yours, I believe."

4. Approach both techs and admin and ask them, if they had gotten hurt on the grounds and were taken to their ER, would they expect to be treated in this way. Would they expect to not receive treatment after they came to Research.

5. Circulate a memo stating that very soon all employees would be required to say please when asking for their salary check. ANd if it's not sincere or strong enough, they don't get paid. The eception is administration. They have to beg for theirs

Re:Solutions

[jamesbulman]

6. Get a rubber stamp made of the word PLEASE.

Technicans Doctors

[Liambp]

Insisting people say please is a silly rule but that doctor's condescending attitude towards "technicians" sums up much of what is wrong with modern medicine. The sooner the "technicians" come up with decent expert systems so we can finally get rid of the self opinionated medical practitioner elite the better.

Re:Fire them

[delinear]

Actually there's a big shortage in these fields already, a lot of recruitment now has to be from overseas, and the recruitment and training process is not cheap. It's a serious misstep by the managers to think they can resolve this issue by such ridiculous means, but clearly it's better to try and reach some resolution than to ignore the issue and risk losing money as trained staff leave and have to be replaced. Probably a better approach would be to get everyone talking about the issues they're facing in their jobs, everyone is massively overstretched and they probably just need to understand that their colleagues (whether they see the jobs they're doing as being more or less skilled than their own) are in the same boat and they need to pull together, but of course that's not good for the image of the hospital and it puts the management at risk if lots of disgruntled staff are told to air their grievances, so they're trying to paper over the cracks instead.

This could be extended to patients

[Chrisq]

This could be extended to patients. It could save the NHS a fortune.

Caller: Is the ambulance on the way? I called half an hour ago and he's looking really bad now. I'm not sure he'll pull through.
999 operator: Now then, somebody forgot the magic word, didn't they!

WWDHD

[drewhk]

What would Dr. House do?

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[pcolaman]

It's a UK Hospital. Nuff said. This wouldn't happen in a US Hospital. That being said, being married to someone in the Medical Field, Doctors treat everyone not a doctor like shit, so honestly, I'm not surprised that someone somewhere would want to fuck with their heads a little.

Re:Fire them

[delinear]

I'm in the UK, and despite all the horror stories about ultra-feminists calling out men who hold the door open, I always hold the door (for everyone, regardless of gender, age, creed or ability) and so far I've never been abused. I think people still, on the whole, appreciate good manners, and while it might be true that there are a few people out there who irrationally take offence, I think if you stick to the policy of good manners, on the whole the thanks will far outweigh any negative reaction.

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[pcolaman]

The hilarious thing is in most cases, lab tests are ordered electronically in most hospitals, and not on paper. At least that's how it works with many hospitals here in the US. Dunno if the UK is still in the dark ages.

Re:Fire them

[delinear]

past muster.

The saying is actually "passed muster" as in to pass muster (meaning to be judged acceptable)

The saying is actually "pass the mustard" as in uh...

I'm so sorry for wasting your time.

That's okay, I'm at work, what else am I going to do with it?

Re:Fire them

[sycodon]

And in the case, the "Administrators" are for all practical matters, the Government.

And to make matters worse, the REAL administrators are the bureaucrats. It's fairly easy to fire your government, but the bureaucrats remain forever.

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[delinear]

The relevant part of their job is to process as many blood tests as possible - if they have too many then they need a way to determine which ones to process in the time. In their infinite wisdom, the management have decided that the inclusion of "please" on the form is one of the criteria to determine whether it gets prioritised or not. Chances are they would have done the tests regardless if they had spare time but they probably ran out of time and had to use the criteria they'd been ordered to follow. Chances also are that if the technicians had been told about these criteria, then the doctors would have been told too, so the fact that he didn't bother to follow the rules in this instance and, as a result, either shows he has a lack of understanding for the amount of pressure his co-workers are under, or that he has such a high opinion of himself that he feels he alone should be exempt from the rules. Whether you agree with the rules or not, I doubt the technicians are at fault here, but hey, don't let me rain on your judgemental parade :)

this is my local hospital

[Anonymous Coward]

And I'm so embarrassed that I'm posting AC. The basic procedure as far as healthcare here goes is:

1. Welcome to A&E! (4 hours later, because it's full of pissheads.) (24 year old 1st year doctor sees patient, who needs prompting several times to read records right in front of him - but at least there's an overworked more senior doctor in the corner consulted every 3 minutes.) "Well, I can't see anything much wrong with you, have some painkillers."

2. "No, we have no money for diagnostic tests, that's all gone to administrators and contractor firms - we don't employ many in-house nurses and don't allow medical professionals (matrons and senior doctors) to manage hospitals any more. But have a blood test."

3. "No, see 2, if you want something you'll have to go via a consultant in another department. See your GP. Yes, it costs more, but this sequence involves more positive government targets."

4. (call up for blood test) I'd like a copy of my blood results. "Nooooooooooo normally that goes via the GP. If you tried taking responsibility for understanding your own health, where the hell would we be?"

5. Oh, 3 involves going to an intermediate "triage" meeting where nothing happens, which splits 1 waiting list artificially into 2.

Oh God, anyway, it goes like this for a month or two until eventually no consultant appointment is offered and you give up and pay for one privately. This works nicely because you can use them as a booster to get back into the state system with preliminary evidence of a problem and get proper diagnostic testing. It's cost them a lot of money because they're bouncing you from place to place but it looks like they're succeeding at various government targets by successfully doing one extra piece of unnecessary work at each stage, and each department gets its budget boost. It's so, so, so horribly corrupt.

Oh, as for doctors: some are lovely, some are horrible. Speaking to others who have used the hospital (especially one family member with a lifetime medical condition), we're happy to tell the doctors to learn some manners (in the most polite way possible) when they are rude either to us or their staff. You can be as strict and as admonishing as required to ensure someone's clear about their fault and how to correct it without being condescending, making a public show, or getting personal. Indeed, you're not going to improve anyone by treating them like that.

This all being said:

This is another typical stupid rule I'd expect from Worthing bureaucracy. They had a checklist item to tick, turned it into a pointless rule which would make more bureaucracy to preserve their place and which would reduce workload for a reason other than "we lack tech staff because we have too many administrators". IOW, they'd no longer have to indicate that they missed targets (management fault), instead declaring that employees failed to fulfil processes (worker fault).

Re:big waste of time

[delinear]

Everyone is busy, that's the real issue. This is not about forcing anyone to be courteous (it's likely to have the opposite affect), it's about making both sides jump through artificial hoops to either reduce the likelihood of them asking for costly procedures unless they absolutely must be done, or justifying not doing them because some trivial rule wasn't followed. This is purely an exercise in trying to avoid having to recruit more staff.

Story is from The Sun

[xaxa]

The story is from The Sun. It would be worth checking if the story was true before getting worked up about it...

Re:Story is from The Sun

[tsalmark]

The sun is affiliated with Faux News?

Re:Story is from The Sun

[openfrog]

Excellent observation... If we checked sources more systematically, and early in a discussion, I guess we would leave perhaps one or two out of ten stories nearly comment-less. Perhaps this would get the message across to Slashdot editors?

Re:Story is from The Sun

[xaxa]

The sun is affiliated with Faux News?

Yes. They are both owned by News Corporation.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Lumpy]

Yup slashdot's crack editors simply pressed the submit button without even clicking through the links.

It's from a fake news site that is the same but far less funny than the Onion...

Why dont I see coverage of this geek story on slashdot?

It's going to change the internet as we know it.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Pharmboy]

Yup slashdot's crack editors simply pressed the submit button without even clicking through the links.

I just unblocked the /. editor samzenpus after several months of being blocked, and this is the first article I see by him. This crap is why I blocked articles by him to begin with. Guess I need to go back to blocking all articles he posts.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[bluefoxlucid]

Funny enough the Sun is horribly liberally biased (like CNN, you know, the TV station everyone says is "unbiased" after the ENTIRE news crew came in wearing all-black and speaking as if at a funeral... the day Bush was re-elected), while Fox is seen as highly conservative-biased. (Note: To me, Fox's political leanings seem clear; they have one highly liberal-biased anchor they use explicitly for political debates, and they have to bring in others to do debates. They do, however, give them a voice for consideration. Most of the time I care to discuss Fox, I'll call them "Balanced" for this reason; I'm not ignorant of their political leanings).

Re:Story is from The Sun

[jo_ham]

They used to be, but before the announcement of the UK election they made a big show of "flipping to Tory" (they like to think they personally control the outcome of the election, and thus were giving their readers the OK to vote tory). Since that time they have been much more right wing.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

To say CNN is "horribly liberally biased" while Fox News is merely "seen as highly conservative-biased" is a little silly. CNN _and_ MSNBC have been far harder on Obama than Fox News was towards Bush.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[MiniMike]

The editors must have been told to 'check their sources before posting', not to 'Please check their sources before posting'.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[john.r.strohm]

Are you sure about that?

The link is to the UPI site. UPI is a hard-news operation, and has been in the business for a very long time.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[RenderSeven]

US News study found Fox as the most balanced in straight reporting, but that doesnt include the nutty far-right infomercial opinion/commentary stuff that (to me anyway) seems to be what takes most of the air time. In that same vein I think CNN/MSNBC do their straight reporting more center-left (well, CNN anyway) and rely less on commentary. My biggest objection to Fox isnt their political leaning, but that it's mostly theater.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[tsalmark]

To the moderator: Given Fox News earned the moniker Faux News after going to court to defend it's right to literally lie in it's news casts, I fail to see how Troll is an appropriate moderation.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[mdwh2]

Liberal != left wing.

Before they flipped to supporting Tory, they were supporting Labour, and weren't liberal then either (e.g., they supported Labour's plans to extend detention without charge; they let ex-Home Secretary David Blunkett have a column, who was responsible for all sorts of authoritarian laws). I agree there's still no evidence of them being a liberal paper (though at the moment, the Tories appear to be behaving more liberally than Labour, e.g., scrapping ID cards and planning to restore various lost freedoms).

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Camann]

Recommended reading for anyone who'd mod 'Faux News' troll.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

One quick phone call to the hospital concerned, and there's the answer - it was a completely made-up story by The Sun based loosely on a jokey comment by a doctor. The contact details for the hospital are readily available on yell.com but they did ask me to tell people not to ring them about it any more. They do have some real work to do...

Posting logged out to avoid karma whoring ;-)

Gordonjcp

Re:Story is from The Sun

[xaxa]

One quick phone call to the hospital concerned, and there's the answer

See the parent post...

Posting logged out to avoid karma whoring

Why? My comment and your anonymous reply are pretty much the only useful bits of information in the whole discussion!

Mod parent up!

Re:Story is from The Sun

[billcopc]

"Most balanced" in the news industry is like "least retarded" in the special olympics. It's all relative...

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Critical Facilities]

Fox's political leanings seem clear;

Indeed, they are very clear.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Belial6]

You missed the point. They were showing how RIGHT wing they are. They wore all black to morn the death of the Republican party. Or, at least any sanity left in it.

Yes, I joke....

Re:Story is from The Sun

[plurgid]

What the FUCK?
No ... seriously ... WHAT. THE. FUCK?

Look man ... I recently spent a week in the hospital ... with a TV that would get TBS, and FOX News ... also every waiting area in the hospital blasted Fox News. There was no escaping it.

There is ZERO straight news on Fox. None whatsoever, period. At all. None of it.

Either that, or it was some amazing coincidence, that every single time I encountered a television with Fox news, there was either a pundit doing his thing, or an anchor snarkily commenting on "straight" news. Except it isn't straight news when you do it like that ... any more than Jon Stewart's Daily Show is "straight news". It's just the "what this dude thinks you should think about the news show".

Clearly, Fox's political leanings irritate me. I can't deny that. But what irritates me even more is that this BULLSHIT that they're doing PASSES FOR JOURNALISM amongst the vast majority of the public.

I'd really have the same issue with it, if Colbert and the Daily Show had a 24 hour news channel and everyone was lapping their schtick up as real journalism too.

Why? Because you don't have to think about it too hard, and the message panders to you. They're CONSISTENTLY reinforcing this message "those crazy people who disagree with you are stupid. You're SMART for LISTENING TO US.". And ... incredibly ... a large number of people swallow this, and buy into it.

Think about that. That's INCREDIBLE ... and it's why I couldn't escape Fox news while I was in the hospital ... because most people don't notice that, and if they do, it doesn't bother them.

That's Fucked up ... with a capital F, people.

As far as American media goes ... the PBS NewsHour is about the closest thing to straight news I've seen lately. They are slightly left biased in political commentary ... but, then again, when that happens, it's CLEARLY delineated as editorial commentary.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[socsoc]

well, they are "fair and balanced"

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Smauler]

I'm not sure which Sun you're reading. The Sun is definitely _not_ Liberal. The Mirror, which is its closest rival, is probably more liberal than the Sun, and all of the broadsheets (well, what used to be broadsheets - some have downsized) are more liberal, excepting the Telegraph. It may be liberal from a US perspective, but it's definitely not from a UK perspective.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Quirkz]

Straight reporting? It must exist on Fox News, but I've never seen it. Every time I flip past, if I pause on Fox News for a moment to see what they're saying, it's ALWAYS commentary. Might have something to do with the timing (generally evenings or late nights), but I've never landed on that channel when they weren't in the middle of a rant about how liberals or Democrats are destroying the nation in one way or another.

I really like a good political discussion, and enjoy listening to rational opposing viewpoints. But I've got no time for obviously biased (and often either factually incorrect or clearly stretching) ranting.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

The biggest observation the past 2-3 years is that while people continue to whine about Faux, they don't realize that Fox has actually become more and more (dare I say) moderate and restrained than other outlets, such as MSNBC.

My biggest objection to people like you is that you pick and choose what is bad based on your political leanings. Otherwise you'd have to include MSNBC to include on news theater and political leaning, as MSNBC has gotten complete off the wall. I thought Fox was bad until I saw MSNBC in the run up to the 2008 election.

And since the election, MSNBC has gotten worse. There has been more crappy MSNBC bias than ever. It's actually hilarious Maddow had (as well as had to put out) an MSNBC branded ad saying that she didn't have a political side when giving an interview. Does she actually believe that? The same reporters that give political opinion with a smirk and with clear political spin and leanings in the evening commentary also do their daytime reporting--with only slightly less obvious bias, but it's still there wholesale. They unabashedly cannot turn it off (it's actually sort of funny how bad they are, and I think they know it).

You don't care about bad news. You care about bad news _only if it works against your political leanings_. Hell, include the Huffington Post in there too.

CNN has certainly gone more and more left; that is unquestionable, but at least they pretend to do a more fair job.

Anyways, it all comes back to bite you in the ass anyways (although you may like that). People wise up to the game that's being played, and then it's status quo for stations to be run like Fox, and the next thing you know, you'll be pointing out how bad Fox is while swimming in a worse cesspool of tactics. People in the middle are also starting to push back hard to the extremes, which is a good thing.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[RenderSeven]

My kingdom for mod points :-)

Re:Story is from The Sun

[BrokenHalo]

The Sun (commonly known as the Stun, largely referring to the cognitive capacity of its readers) is one of the most notoriously right-wing media to blight Britain's otherwise green and pleasant land. They will publish any old rubbish that sells papers most of the time, but when it comes down to elections, their support is firmly and unwaveringly on the side of the Tories.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

But you have to look at what they're being hard on Obama about. Often it's that he is not being liberal enough.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[yourlord]

The linked article places an extreme amount of weight on opinion/commentary shows, and not the actual news reporting. It focuses on the personal opinions of certain journalists, while not acknowledging that journalists are human and ALL have opinions, regardless of the network they work for. The article criticizes the journalists' personal opinions, expressed outside their roles as journalists, and not their actual reporting of the news.

It attacks liberal guests they have on their shows based on pinpoint focused issues and not their overall ideology to support their supposition that their liberal guests are just not liberal enough.

I gave up about half way into the article as it was obviously written to support their own opinion rather than to provide an objective analysis. In the future, please link to articles that at least try to hide their own bias.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, our site looked into this and got comment from the hospital after reading the slashdot story ... pretty much all untrue.

Link

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Chowderbags]

My biggest problem with Fox News is that they lie and edit their footage (like the most recent example, editing out the applause at Obama's West Point speech). Considering that they've argued in court that just because their the news doesn't mean they can't lie, I don't know why anyone trusts them.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[ccady]

Do you read these things at all? This study does nothing to further your assertion that "Fox [is] the most balanced in straight reporting".

The study covered *only* 2008 Election stories during the prime time evening news shows for a period of 3 1/2 months in late 2007.

The methodology was to look for "positive" and "negative" comments about candidates. Suppose we had a story about a serial killer. By this methodology, if the news program called him a thug twice, and a blessing once, then we'd have an "unbalanced" news report which was 66% negative and 33% positive.

(Interesting to note that by these measures, the Fox news was close to 50+/50- for democratic candidates, but the others averaged 47+/53- for those democratic candidates.)

If you wish to learn more, go to SourceWatch.com (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_Media_and_Public_Affairs) and find out who funds the Center for Media and Public Affairs (http://www.cmpa.com/). At the time of the report, the president of the CMPA, S. Robert Lichter, was a paid Fox News contributor.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Onymous Coward]

I thought Fox viewers had been shown to be substantially misinformed?

Yeah, here we are:

• 67% of Fox viewers believed that the "U.S. has found clear evidence in Iraq that Saddam Hussein was working closely with the al Qaeda terrorist organization" (Compared with 56% for CBS, 49% for NBC, 48% for CNN, 45% for ABC, 16% for NPR/PBS).
• The belief that "The U.S. has found Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq" was held by 33% of Fox viewers and only 23% of CBS viewers, 19% for ABC, 20% for NBC, 20% for CNN and 11% for NPR/PBS
• 35% of Fox viewers believed that "the majority of people [in the world] favor the U.S. having gone to war" with Iraq. (Compared with 28% for CBS, 27% for ABC, 24% for CNN, 20% for NBC, 5% for NPR/PBS)

The real thing to take away here is that you're a fool if you're not listening to NPR.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[TheLink]

Balanced like a good random number generator?

If something/someone is bad, say it's bad. Fuck "balance".

Us nerds should care about truth more than "balance".

Re:Story is from The Sun

[geekoid]

Irrelevant. Can you show a regular biased slant in the reporting?

That's what counts. Fox is highly Neo-Con based.

No, they don't give them a voice to be heard. They give a voice to be mocked with logical fallacies.

It's not a debate, it's a set up.

They are not Balanced at all. The give the false appearance of balance.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[TheLink]

> CNN, you know, the TV station everyone says is "unbiased" after the ENTIRE news crew came in wearing all-black and speaking as if at a funeral... the day Bush was re-elected

Yes, CNN is biased. But were they wrong that the reelection of Bush was bad?

Re:Story is from The Sun

[bluefoxlucid]

I'm not sure which Sun you're reading. The Sun is definitely _not_ Liberal.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/

Re:Story is from The Sun

[lymond01]

I guess. I can't make heads or tails of what happened in the beginning of that lawsuit. Wikipedia author needs to reword it for clarity.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[geekoid]

Link? no? didn't think so.
Fox's founder is Roger Ailes. You might want to look that up.
In fact read this:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1067

In '05 Norvell (London editor for Fox) Specifically said they where biased. That it's there busings to be biased.

IT's well known that Fox news is part of the GOP. This was clearly stated in it's beginings, and contiues to this day.

Let me restate that:
It was SPECIFICALLY CREATED to help the Conservative party and has evolved to support the Neo-Cons.

Fox is NOT balanced. Giving some on the 'other side' a voice, does not equal balance.
Fox gang bangs, mocks and uses logical fallacy to deal with what ever person they are setting up.

They lie and make stuff up all the time. for years that has been pointed out.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[jmac_the_man]

Jane Akre worked for a Fox network affiliate and not Fox News. It would make as much sense to not like Fox News because Joe Buck and Troy Aikman are horrible football announcers.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[91degrees]

So why did they do nothing to verify the story, whereas it took geekosystem - a relatively obscure site - actually did some basic investigation?

Re:Story is from The Sun

[shurikt]

The Discussion page of that wiki entry is far more interesting.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Critical Facilities]

The linked article places an extreme amount of weight on opinion/commentary shows, and not the actual news reporting....I gave up about half way into the articl

Too bad you chose not to keep reading (if you read any of it at all). While some of what you say is true (the article does point out some rather significant political associations of various commentators/hosts), there are other facts reported that support the argument illustrating Fox News' tendency toward "the right" or Republican viewpoints. For example:

There is a formula to Fox's news agenda. "A lot of the people we have hired," Fox executive John Moody explained (Inside Media, 12/11/96) when the network was launched, "have come without the preconceptions of must-do news. There are stories we will sometimes forego in order to do stories we think are more significant. The biggest strength that we have is that Roger Ailes has allowed me to do that; to forego stores that would be 'duty' stories in order to focus on other things." These "other" stories that Moody has in mind are what make up much of Fox's programming: An embarrassing story about Jesse Jackson's sex life. The latest political-correctness outrage on campus. A one-day mini-scandal about a Democratic senator. Much like talk radio, Fox picks up these tidbits from right-wing outlets like the Washington Times or the Drudge Report and runs with them.

Fox's founder and president, Roger Ailes, was for decades one of the savviest and most pugnacious Republican political operatives in Washington, a veteran of the Nixon and Reagan campaigns. Ailes is most famous for his role in crafting the elder Bush's media strategy in the bruising 1988 presidential race. With Ailes' help, Bush turned a double-digit deficit in the polls into a resounding win by targeting the GOP's base of white male voters in the South and West

Fox's managing editor is Brit Hume, a veteran TV journalist and contributor to the conservative American Spectator and Weekly Standard magazines.

Jed Duvall, a former veteran ABC reporter who left Fox after a year, told New York (11/17/97): "I'll never forget the morning that one producer came up to me, and, rubbing her hands like Uriah Heep, said, 'Let's have something on Whitewater today.' That sort of thing doesn't happen at a professional news organization." Indeed, Fox's signature political news show, Special Report with Brit Hume, was originally created as a daily one-hour update devoted to the 1998 Clinton sex scandal.

Dude, those aren't anchor people (well the last one is, but he's talking about a producer), these are producers and executives who very plainly are shaping the broadcasts (news and commentary). If pointing out the facts to you makes you feel as if there is some "bias" then perhaps I can understand why all other news sources feel "biased" to you.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[j_rhoden]

Wish I had mod points here. A local Fox affiliate's news team and Fox News are definitely not the same thing.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Tetsujin]

"Funny enough the Sun is horribly liberally biased"

Ha, haa, haaa, haaaa! What colour is the sky on your planet?

It is a Murdoch paper. He eats liberals for breakfast.

They don't let him have liberals in the VA hospital - he only gets those if Faceman swings by to bust him out first.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Pharmboy]

What makes /. unique isn't the editors, which have changed often enough over the years (and have even been worse). What makes it unique is the users. About 1/3 of the articles are worthwhile to me, but the links that other users provide often provide much more insight than the links in the article. I don't think this is a flaw of /. per se, it is just that if you put enough eyeballs on a story, others will provide more information than any single editor can research in a reasonable amount of time.

Ever notice that when a bogus story gets published, it gets found out in a matter of a few minutes, 30 minutes tops? Just like Linus said "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow", the same holds true here. Without the loyal and knowledgeable users that have accumulated over the years, /. would just be another blog. Giving credit where it is due, the /. moderation system is about as good as you can hope for, flaws and all, which helps keep the users here.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Azar]

Just like Linus said "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow", the same holds true here.

Ummm, it wasn't Linus that said that, it was Eric S. Raymond in The Cathedral and the Bazaar

But hey, this kind of proves your point!

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Pharmboy]

Ah, my mistake as it is called Linus' Law, and you are correct that Eric Raymond both made the original quote and gave it the name Linus' Law. And it is ironic that my mistake proved the value of the law, as you point out. :)

Re:Story is from The Sun

[mdwh2]

but when it comes down to elections, their support is firmly and unwaveringly on the side of the Tories.

No, they supported Labour from shortly before the 1997 election, all the way until 2009. (As far as I can tell, their support seems to be whoever they think seems most likely to win...)

Re:Story is from The Sun

[ta bu shi da yu]

The problem with this is that what happens if they say something is bad, when it isn't? If it's balanced, then you can work this out for yourself.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[TheLink]

Then I start to consider them bad too.

Balance as practiced seems more like those two commentators in pro wrestling- each permanently sides the other wrestler no matter what they do.

As such I value truth over balance (yes I know the saying - 3 sides to a story - his version, her version and what really happened, but hey even if the scientists haven't figured out the complete unified theory yet, what they have is good enough to do many things).

Re:Story is from The Sun

[treeves]

What if you listen/watch and apply a critical filter to both?
For the record, I listen to NPR much more than I watch Fox, even though I'm a registered Republican - please don't tell on me ;-)

Re:Story is from The Sun

[RockDoctor]

The Sun (commonly known as the Stun,

Round here - Scotland - they're normally "the Scum". Not meant in a good sense.

their support is firmly and unwaveringly on the side of the Tories.

s/Tories/right wing/ : again, the whole "New Labour" right wing political party has consistently had severe problems on the civilised side of Hadrian's Wall (we allow a waver for Geordies living within the metaphorical shadow of the Wall).

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Smauler]

Ah - this story was reported by The Sun in the UK. As mentioned further down, the hospital has commented and said that The Sun made up this story - the hospital has never had this policy.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Onymous Coward]

I vaguely recall research that says you can't actually filter information effectively. Your conscious mind can only address so much information at once but your unconscious/subconscious mind is constantly taking in new data at higher bandwidth. On top of that your intellectual grasp of information is itself prone to failure from the usual logical fallacies. ::shrug:: It's a hard call. You're probably doing the right thing by having the majority of your mix be the more trustworthy source.

Re:Story is from The Sun

[Hurricane78]

It’s interesting how you equal checking the sources with proving it to be a fact.
The one has nothing to do with the other.
It’s all subjective. Which source appears to be more trustworthy. Which is calculated by how consistent they are with their past output, and how much they fit your own world views / bias. So it’s a bias compatibility check and a consistency check. (There is no such thing as objectivity.) Which has nothing to do with what really happened. Hell, you did not even state from what p.o.v. the observer of that event is supposed see it. (The event happened right of me / The event happened left of me. Both is what you might call “bias”, but unavoidable.)

Re:Fire them

[dontbgay]

That'd be ideal.. Except that's not the case anymore. Nobody wants the liability. And still more don't want to be the bad guy. Hell, for extra credit, try it in a union shop.

Re:Fire them

[meerling]

I'm in the USA, and yes, I have been yelled at for holding the door by a female, even though I was actually holding it open for the guy in front of her because it was more polite than letting the door slam in his face.
So yes, there are many fools who mistake politeness for sexism.

Of course, the problem here is policy to screw over patients because a doctor forgot to write and term of politeness that is used to indicate a request on a form instructing a needed action to be performed.
Please is for requests, not requirements.

(As some other people have mentioned, a number of doctors get overblown egos, yeah, it happens, and that may be a reason to toss stinkbombs in his Audi, but when you start f'ing with MY medical care because of it, you deserve to get a tire iron to the skull.)

What happened to "Just Say NO"?

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Administrators at England's Worthing Hospital are insisting that doctors say the magic word [CC] when writing orders for blood tests on weekends. If a doctor refuses to write "please" on the order, the test will be refused. The managers said the move is aimed at easing pressure on hospital workers charged with performing blood tests by making doctors consider whether the tests are essential.

WTF? I was a medical technologist - the staffer who would perhaps collect "the bloods", and certainly would be the one doing the lab tests. I can see several things wrong with this scenario:

• If this is only a weekend protocol, it violates the K.I.S.S. principle of having things work the same way all the time, and of course they will forget that it's Sunday, bloody Sunday and forget to say pretty please with sugar on it at least half the time.
• If one or more of the weekend docs are ordering tests that are medically unnecessary or ordering the tests all STAT (extremely urgent) so they can go home sooner, you review their test ordering patterns (easy to do with computers). If a pattern of abuse emerges, having the senior pathologist or the lab manager chew them out for it works wonders.

• A pathologist, lab administrator, or hospital administrator with backbone can set up a list of tests that will be done STAT, and under what conditions. If Dr. Gottahaveitnow wants something that is not on the list, too bad. He/she can get an override from the lab director.

• Medical technologists have their own way of dealing with the pile-up of STAT requests. We redefine the acronym to be "Start Test Any Time". We smile and say, "Certainly, I'll get right on it as soon as I finish the STATs from Dr. Wanna Playtennis, Dr. Tooimportanttowait, and Dr. Dammitiforgotmypreops. What is your pager number, I'll call you." That leaves them snarling at each other for cluttering the queue.

Re:What happened to "Just Say NO"?

[Mattskimo]

And just because I know how the slashdotter mind works: STAT is short for statim, latin for immediately.

Re:socialized healthcare

[xaxa]

Or you know, people could be responsible for themselves and pay for their own treatment, just like they do for any other good or service....

Like roads, railways, parks, street lighting, schools, defence, and so on?

Canadian

[pipingguy]

Why does this story not have a 'Canada' tag, assholes? Is it because we Canucks are perceived to be benign followers to you pieces of shit? Tabernac, fuck you (please pardon my French).

Lawsuit in 3... 2...

[Rogerborg]

I can actually hear the drool from the Ambulance Chasers dripping on the floor. "So, Mr Lab Monkey, you refused to do your job and perform the blood test for the deceased because...?"

Those weekend lab shifts are soon going to look pretty cheap next to the legal bills for negligence.

Re:The Sun - The best for news, shobiz sports and

[FuckingNickName]

I expect I consider the Sun as much nonsense as you do but:

xenophobic mindset of the UK's unemployed/uneducated/unwashed masses

It is a hypocritical subset of the Guardian-reading middle class who manage (I'd hardly call it "employment") all the business and government schemes which create the society we live in while pretending to sympathise with the oiks they don't have to live near/help out anyway.

You might have been looking for working class rather than unemployed, and very misled on certain issues rather than unedcuated (recall what Feynman said about experts speaking outside their field?). I guess my point here is that there's nothing especially stupid about the Sun reader and nothing especially bright about the stereotypical opposite to the Sun reader - when us vs them gangs are formed, the real threat is ignored: useless power-hungry bureaucrats, per article topic.

the Sun newspaper ran a campaign where they published the names and addresses of registered sex offenders, with quotes like "Is your neighbour a child molester?".

Everyone who has browsed porn has at least one "she sure LOOKS under 18!" image on their hard drive. This is enough to make you a registered sex offender. Therefore everyone's freedom essentially hangs on whether the police want to investigate your computer and whether you can afford an excellent lawyer. IOW, the paedophile scare is a fallback method of eliminating anyone who becomes inconvenient to government, corporation or even a sufficiently devious neighbour.

It's been engineered very cleverly and it's not just Sun readers who are convinced their children are going to be raped on every street corner - the Sun's just combining this with the other tool of distracting people from uniting against import threats by divide and conquer techniques: turn readers on their own neighbourhood!

Re:socialized healthcare

[Totenglocke]

Well those are all things that, by their nature, require a government monopoly for them to be efficiently (or at least as efficiently as a government is capable of) run. Health care has been proven to NOT be one of the things that is most efficient when run as a government monopoly. For further explanation, take some economics classes and they'll explain why these things are the exception to the rule. Also, in general, the things you listed are all things people use equally - people do not use equal amounts of medical treatment and as such, it is unfair to charge a person who rarely needs medical treatment obscene amounts to subsidize someone who's constantly getting treated for something.

But hey, if you like to think that someone else would do a better job with your money than you can, I'd be more than happy to take control of your finances for you! =)

Re:Fire them

[BasilBrush]

You still have union shops? They have long since gone in Britain.

Counterintuitive eh?

Re:socialized healthcare

[xaxa]

Well those are all things that, by their nature, require a government monopoly

Do they? There are plenty of privately run schools and some countries have privately run railways.

efficiently (or at least as efficiently as a government is capable of) run.

Ah, you are American. Government doesn't have to be inefficient, you know ;-).

Health care has been proven to NOT be one of the things that is most efficient when run as a government monopoly.

Proven by whom? I'm sure there's some people that have shown the opposite is true.

What is "efficient" healthcare anyway? Quality of life, or expenditure, a combination, or something else?

Also, in general, the things you listed are all things people use equally

Really? I hardly use the roads at all (I walk on them, but almost all the cost is to make them suitable for motor vehicles, which I don't use). I use the railways more than average. Even schools aren't use equally -- I could have left at 16, but I stayed until I was 18, then went to university (mostly paid for by the government). However, society as a whole benefits from having these things available to everyone. I like everyone around me to be educated well, and I know it's good for commerce and the people if we can move around easily. I also think it's good if the people around me are generally healthy (and businesses would agree, sick staff reduce productivity).

if you like to think that someone else would do a better job with your money than you can, I'd be more than happy to take control of your finances for you! =)

I already do: roughly 24% of my income goes to the government, plus whatever proportion of my expenditure is VAT.

Re:Fire them

[AVryhof]

Careful, if you hod the door, hold it for everyone. Otherwise, it could be contrived as sexual harassment.

"He held the door for Wanda, but not Milton... so he must be trying to get her in the stock room alone."

Re:Fire them

[AVryhof]

How is adding the task of reading and interpreting the word "please" going to make them less overworked?

Re:socialized healthcare

[Totenglocke]

Ah, you are American. Government doesn't have to be inefficient, you know ;-).

Well first I'd see a shrink about your problems with delusions. After that, I'd suggest picking up some history books. Government never has and never will be efficient because governments have slave labor to provide their money that they spend. There is no motivation at all for politicians to keep spending in check - remember, they write the laws and have the power of the police and military behind them. Despite the pretty lies we like to tell ourselves, citizens in a democracy have just as little control over the government as citizens in a dictatorship do.

Proven by whom? I'm sure there's some people that have shown the opposite is true.

Do some research on the actual cost of health care in countries where it's run by the government. Also note that there are many countries that are having serious funding issues for their government run healthcare because it's so horribly inefficient that it's going bankrupt.

I stayed until I was 18, then went to university (mostly paid for by the government)

You do realize that, due to the obscene amount of taxes you pay (and the more successful you are in life, the more obscene they'll get) that it will cost you much, much more over your lifetime for that "free" college education than it would if you paid for it yourself, right?

There's a reason that you virtually never see a collectivist getting an Economics degree.....

Re:Fire them

[arielCo]

OTOH, I hold doors open regardless of gender (not the whole "stand aside, let them in first" act but just keeping a hand on the door until they can catch it).

Chivalry is just the self-interested (but foolish) cousin of kindness, and I don't think having balls instead of a pussy between the legs makes someone less worthy of my help.

Re:socialized healthcare

[arethuza]

In the UK you are perfectly able to go elsewhere to a private hospital - you just have to have private insurance or pay cash.

Re:Fire them

[BitZtream]

The moral is ... you missed what was probably your only chance this decade to get laid because you were being what you thought was clever.

Re:The Sun - The best for news, shobiz sports and

[VJ42]

I guess my point here is that there's nothing especially stupid about the Sun reader

Sure there is, they read the Sun seriously for a start.

Re:socialized healthcare

[xaxa]

Ah, you are American. Government doesn't have to be inefficient, you know ;-).

Well first I'd see a shrink about your problems with delusions. After that, I'd suggest picking up some history books. Government never has and never will be efficient because governments have slave labor to provide their money that they spend. There is no motivation at all for politicians to keep spending in check

How about wanting to be (re-)elected? The new government in the UK is expected to make spending cuts, and reduce taxes for low and middle income people. (Point 3.) I've been on holiday for a couple of weeks, but I think the changes should be announced within the next two-three weeks.

citizens in a democracy have just as little control over the government as citizens in a dictatorship do.

Don't be stupid. I suggest you read some history books, or maybe visit a country in Eastern Europe and go to a museum (or talk to anyone over 25 from one of these countries).

You might also consider visiting (or reading about) Cuba or North Korea.

You do realize that, due to the obscene amount of taxes you pay (and the more successful you are in life, the more obscene they'll get) that it will cost you much, much more over your lifetime for that "free" college education than it would if you paid for it yourself, right?

Yes, I do. However, I consider paying for education a necessary investment in younger generations. In the recent UK elections I voted for a candidate whose party said they would reduce the amount students have to pay to go to university.

The doctors are above doing tests.

[dentar]

I had to go into the emergency room last year. I found that there is a very strict hierarchy there, and that apparently, doing such a thing as a blood test is completely beneath a doctor. No wonder they're displeased at having to use the word, "please." God forbid a doctor condescend to his underlings.

Re:The doctors are above doing tests.

[geekoid]

ah, your trip to ER makes you knowledgable about how a hospital works?

Clearly you were there to ahve your brain removed, becasue you aren't using it.

It's not about 'beneath that' it about time. Dr. working a 12 hour shift. not another 4 hours is added to do tests. Do you really want Dr. that ahve been working 16 hours a day to treat you?

If you came to work and found out that not only did you have to do your job, you also had to spend an additional 4 hours doing someone else job because you didn't write down 'please' wouldn't piss you off?

Hell, if you were a patient and you found out a lab technician was dictating your medical needs, wouldn't you be pissed? Because not doing request medical tests is a medical decision.

Re:The doctors are above doing tests.

[jack2000]

It is not hi JOB to do the test. Where i live the technicians that do the labwork are specifically trained to do that. The doctors know how to do it too. But would you rather have the doctor see 1 patient and do labwork or seeing 3 patients in the time it would take him to do the damn labwork?

Re:Fire them

[jabuzz]

Well I am in the UK as well, and have been given dirty looks for holding doors open in the past. I am now selective as to who I hold them open for.

Re:Fire them

[corbettw]

If you think the banking sector is a free market then you either have no idea how the banking sectors works, have no idea what a free market is, or both.

Re:The Sun - The best for news, shobiz sports and

[FuckingNickName]

What mainstream UK newspaper, when read seriously, does not imply that the reader is stupid? I'm not even sure what you mean by "seriously" - from time to time I read The Sun and The Guardian "seriously" in that I take their impacts seriously, their covered topics seriously and put some serious critical thought into their reporting and why they're expressing a particular angle.

But I don't have a mindless allegiance (which is I think what you mean by "seriously") to the editorial stance of either - I think they're both jokes. The loyal GROLIES would be worse, as it usually has a position in which it can do more harm.

simple solution

[corbettw]

The doctors should buy rubber stamps with the word "please" on them, then have medical students stamp every single order slip in inventory so that the word is on all of them. Problem solved.

My guess...

[sjpm]

Just a stab in the dark here but here's my theory:

Lab and tech are short-staffed on weekends and make a request of management to have docs not submit requests that can wait until Monday.

Management agrees, says they will have Docs only submit urgent request, and for some boneheaded reason decide the best way to do this is have urgent requests marked "Please" instead of, oh, I don't know... maybe "urgent"?

Docs rightly feel this is stupid, more because of the choice of words than because of the principle behind it. Probably also quite a bit of "If I didn't need it now, I wouldn't request it now" sentiment.

Re:My guess...

[Dunbal]

Lab and tech are short-staffed on weekends

      Because accounting/human resources think that people only get sick Monday to Friday from 9am to 5pm, so why budget for a functional 7 days a week lab? But when accountants think about efficiency in health care, they HATE to see empty beds because they think that the hospital is being "inefficient" when actually it's the other way around. So Mrs. Jones gets to stay that extra couple of days because more filled beds means we can get a bigger budget.

      Of course there are pitfalls everywhere in health care - because if you start doing like some insurance companies and paying bonuses on DISCHARGES, suddenly you will start getting sick people being discharged before they're ready. However making doctors beg for lab work is ridiculous. At the hospital I worked at, if you didn't put "urgent" on the lab request, it could take 2-3 days. So everyone put "urgent" on everything. How stupid is that?

Re:The Sun - The best for news, shobiz sports and

[VJ42]

Actually the word 'seriously' was left in by accident; I was originally going to write "They take the sun seriously", then realised that they probably don't ;p .

I personally read the websites of the Gruniad & Torygraph to try and get a bit of balance - I don't buy any of the papers as I think that they're all jokes to some degree, just the Broadsheets less so; I do have a subscription to Private Eye though.

Re:The Sun - The best for news, shobiz sports and

[FuckingNickName]

I do have a subscription to Private Eye though.

Hooray! I wouldn't say no to one, though I haven't read a copy for a while... a family member bought me a copy last time I was in hospital (see, I'm still on topic), helping me to maintain a smile at the "wrong" time.

wtf

[hesaigo999ca]

Someone has to ask please so that that person can do their job, that they are getting paid to do.....really?
Who thought of this, must have been a woman nurse....on her period or something, under appreciated etc.
.
I will never ask someone please do your job, that is what they are getting paid for, neither would my boss ask me....
why would you feel the need to be polite and ask them to do what they are already supposed to do???

Writing...

[Silly Man]

Must say 'please'...come on.

Just require that they write legibly!

honestly

[Silly Man]

This sounds like a punishment for doctors being rude. It is pretty common that doctors abuse nurses and tech staff and it is understood that nurses and tech staff just suck it up.

Re:The Sun - The best for news, shobiz sports and

[VJ42]

Hooray! I wouldn't say no to one, though I haven't read a copy for a while... a family member bought me a copy last time I was in hospital (see, I'm still on topic), helping me to maintain a smile at the "wrong" time.

Get one, IIRC it's only ~£25 for the whole year (24 copies - fortnightly); the cover price is £1.50 so it's well worth it if you're into politics and satire.

Rubbish

[Dunbal]

From TFA: The managers said the move is aimed at easing pressure on hospital workers charged with performing blood tests by making doctors consider whether the tests are essential.

      Let me clarify that I am a physician. Thank god I don't work in the UK, however.

      This is typical of the problems you get when a hospital is run by "business administrators". Please note: ALL TESTS ORDERED BY A DOCTOR ARE ESSENTIAL. What, you think we like to take time out of our lives to write down lab orders, and take more time interpreting them, just to push paper around? Because we have stock in ballpoint pen manufacturers?

      Honestly any person who alters a medical instruction - say nursing staff who fail to dispense correct, prescribed medication or lab staff who decide not to perform correct, prescribed tests are taking a MEDICAL decision. This implies two things: first, they are practicing medicine without being licensed to do so. Secondly, the must assume responsibility for the consequences of their decision. If something happens to a patient because the lab "deemed" that the test was "not necessary", guess whose fault it is?

      This is a thinly veiled attempt to reduce hospital costs by not hiring more lab workers to cover the weekends. Or some idiot in accounting thinks that if he limits the amount of testing, he will essentially limit costs (because of course running no tests is far cheaper than running tests). The hidden cost of course is the morbidity/mortality of the patients. But hey, what's an extra day in the hospital for the patient - the bed will be filled by SOMEONE anyway, right?

      Unfortunately I find that physicians are too good natured or too wrapped up in their work to get organized and tackle crap like this head on. Perhaps the hospital administrators should start saying "please" to the physicians for them to come to work every day. /rant

Re:Rubbish

[geekoid]

"...guess whose fault it is?"

The administration? hahahaha...

How much cheaper is running no tests when the hospital gets sued? of course, when the media gets hold of it the person suing becomes the bad guy.

Beside, your rant it pretty pointless. I mean who gets sick on weekends~

Re:Rubbish

[psm321]

I think what they meant by essential was "urgent". For example, a routine cholesterol test probably doesn't have to actually happen over the weekend. Of course the doctor is the best person to determine that, hence the differentiation is left to the doctor. (I agree that a checkbox makes more sense though)

Re:Rubbish

[Dunbal]

Very few tests fall into the must have category (without this the patient dies or suffers a bad outcome).

      So you would have your decision criteria being the life or death of a patient. Nice. Yes, I am glad that you are not a physician.

Most are of the nice to have/needed for optimum treatment

      Hello? That's what doctors try to achieve, when we're not staying current.

      So if I understand you, you propose SUB optimal treatment, provided it doesn't actually KILL patients?

      Seriously, I know a few doctors who lack diagnostic confidence (and/or skill) and therefore make up for it by trying to brute-force the process via the lab, ordering every available test under the sun in order to hopefully come up with a clue (kind of like medical TV shows, actually). However these doctors are in the minority. Usually when a test is ordered - there's a REASON (even if it's not life and death).

Re:Rubbish

[geekoid]

" doctors tend not to read peer reviewed studies or stay current in medicine due to time pressures."

Is that a UK thing? In the US they are required to stay current.

I don't think you understand.
Test rule out variables. Yes, most tests will come back "normal", but that doesn't mean they weren't needed.

Re:Fire them

[natehoy]

I've run into that several times.

My now-practiced answer is, "I'm terribly sorry to have offended you. You see, my mother always taught me to hold the door for a lady, and I apologize for mistaking you for one."

Requirements documents

[billy8988]

Thank you /. for the story, I found another reason to ignore items in the requirements documents.
Until they incorporate "please" in the RUP, I will be safe.

Come on - just do it

[ygslash]

If true, this sounds like a stupid rule, but - just do it. Write "Please". It's that big of a deal?

Re:Come on - just do it

[Ash-Fox]

If true, this sounds like a stupid rule, but - just do it. Write "Please". It's that big of a deal?

You've never seen a doctor's handwriting, have you?

Re:Fire them

[StuartHankins]

After hours the doors require you to swipe your student ID to get in. It's a pain, so decent folk don't let the door swing shut after getting the reader to take their ID.

Wait... what?? You really don't understand why you have to swipe your card, do you? It's one thing if you know the person -- and yet totally different if you're holding the door open for strangers.

The good news is you're still in school. Stay there until you learn something. If you're lucky you might learn 2 somethings like why this is stupid. Really, get a clue. This is irresponsible especially in today's society.

Comming to a hospital near you

[bonkeydcow]

This is all just a preview of Obamacare. If we don't get it repealed.

Wasting time?

[soppin' tater]

Doctors are wasting time doing the job of the technicians.

Whoa, and hold the phone. If it's such a waste of time doing a technician's job, then why should a technician bother, either? Though, yes, the rule is silly, he beautifully illustrates the reason for it right there.

Re:Wasting time?

[Chowderbags]

Doctors are highly trained (and highly payed). It makes no sense to have them do a job that requires someone with less training and less pay. It's a bit like saying "Engineers shouldn't waste their time emptying the trash from their office". It's not that emptying trash doesn't need to get done, it's that there's a lot more important things for them to spend their time on.

When I watch a news station...

[KingSkippus]

When I watch a news station, I expect to see news, not commentary. Now, I know that it's not going to be straight, hard-core news 24 hours a day, but still, you have to understand that when I do watch a news station, it's usually because I'm killing some down time and just flipping channels, or there's something going on that I want to know more about.

So if I have the choice between having a mainstream news station that may not do quite as good a job at reporting the news and that has bits of commentary (CNN) versus a "news" station that has craptons of commentary with a bit of really good news reporting mixed in (Fox), I'll pick the former almost every time. I don't have time to sift through the silliness to get to what I want to know.

But really, when I want news news, I usually just go somewhere like BBC or NPR on the Internet. In spite of claims to the contrary, I've personally found that Fox is anything but "fair and balanced" in their reporting. Let's be honest, sensationalism trumps any political leanings any of these stations have. Anyone who has been around as long as I have knows that it doesn't matter which side of the spectrum they fall on when it comes to getting the numbers.

Re:When I watch a news station...

[ildon]

CNN Headline News used to be the last refuge for 24 hr hard news coverage, but now that they rebranded to HLN I honestly have no idea what they're supposed to be. They seem to mainly focus on unbearable entertainment coverage.

Re:Fire them

[maxume]

Yeah, back in the days when rape was barely considered a crime holding the door open for strangers was a lot safer.

even if tabloid rumor, doc arrogance hurts patient

[cinnamon colbert]

here in the US "there are a lot of studies" (ie, I'm to lazy to find them) showing that rude/arrogant behaviour by docs hurts patientns - docs often refuse to wash their hands, take advice on handwahsing, etc etc

Re:Fire them

[maxume]

Bureaucracies that generate tedium and frustration are a major problem of modern society, not a good idea.

Related Story:

[Arkiel]

Lab Tech Union Shuffles Nervously, Coughs & Laughs Into Their Hands.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

If you make every one say please

[geekoid]

it looses all meaning.

Also, If I were a patient and found out I was being put at risk because someone didn't say please. I would raise Holy Hell.

Re:even if tabloid rumor, doc arrogance hurts pati

[geekoid]

"There are a lot of studies" that cinnamon_colbert" likes to be pounded in the ass by horse cock.

How about you make an effort to prove your point or just shut the fuck up.
No phrase as done more damage then the phrase "there are a lot of studies" without supporting docs.

and if someone dies?

[CharlieG]

And if one of MY loved ones died because someone didn't run a lab because the MD didn't write "please", I'd be hearing them beg me to PLEASE stop by the time I got done with them - Heck, I'd be hearing them begging me to please kill them by the time I got done, to stop the pain

Re:Fire them

[Maxo-Texas]

There was something like this on Slate a while back.

The guy stopped to hold a rather heavy door open for some young business lady. She not only refused his help but started to chew him up one side and down the other for insulting her by holding the door open. Rather than continue to stand there being abused, he let go and started to walk on to the elevators and the door knocked her down as she was so focused on her rant she was not paying attention to the door.

I don't think he went back to help her up. Didn't want to insult her.

Re:Fire them

[Maxo-Texas]

I think implicit in this conversation is that the technicians, for some reason, can't be sacked right now.

They are probably understaffed, overworked, and if the hospital fires them it will take weeks to replacet them.

Re:Fire them

[geekoid]

And if you can't find someone to replace them?

OF they are in high demand?

See software engineers circa 1998.

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[Gizzmonic]

If I were your manager and I saw that you canned that guy because he was blunt and abusive, I'd fire you so quickly your head would spin!

Thank You!

[Anonymous Coward]

I just wanted to say "thank you" for your sanity in this discussion. Who goes to an ER without an emergency, anyway?

Fox News editing

[Tetsujin]

My biggest problem with Fox News is that they lie and edit their footage (like the most recent example, editing out the applause at Obama's West Point speech).

I haven't seen the footage in question - but if the story is about the speech, and not the applause, it seems sensible to edit that out for brevity. Sometimes in those speeches the amount of pauses for applause can get kind of cumbersome...

Re:Fox News editing

[skuzzlebutt]

Watching the video, it was pretty clear that it wasn't edited for brevity; they broadcast several seconds (like ten-fifteen seconds) of him looking around the crowd awkwardly. The clip doesn't seem awkward if you view the original footage including the crowd's applause. It seemed to be engineered to insinuate that the West Point crowd did not agree with Obama's stance on the war, a point driven home later in the week when Mike Huckabee mentioned the fact that the "troops didn't appluade".

WMDs in Iraq

[Tetsujin]

They actually did find evidence of WMDs in Iraq - unfortunately the dog ate the photos and documents they'd retrieved before they could be properly archived.

Please fire the Technicians

[Phrogman]

who are not doing their job, and putting patient's health at risk as a result of their petty behaviour.

New technicians can be hired to replace them I am sure. Ones that are less picky :P

Balanced reporting

[Tetsujin]

If something/someone is bad, say it's bad. Fuck "balance".

Us nerds should care about truth more than "balance".

The problem is that judgments like "bad" are subjective - and providing just raw, verifiable information usually isn't much help to the audience, they need analysis as well so they can understand the bigger picture, the significance of that data... And analysis, too, varies depending on the source.

Re:Balanced reporting

[TheLink]

Well from my subjective analysis, something like "The Economist" (the UK mag) is better than Fox.

It's just a word

[makoto149]

Just write "Please" on there, you egotistical jerk.

Re:Fire them

[Tyler Durden]

The good news is you're still in school. Stay there until you learn something. If you're lucky you might learn 2 somethings like why this is stupid. Really, get a clue. This is irresponsible especially in today's society.

Wow. You must be a real joy to be around at parties.

Superfluous words...

[Bert64]

The word "please" doesn't add any information to a statement, and is actually a quite ridiculous waste of (time/ink/bandwidth/whatever)...
To endanger patients lives over something so trivial should be criminal. People are there to work, "politeness" is irrelevant, just do your job... Most of the people i work with on a daily basis do not add arbitrary words like "please" to their requests and it doesn't change the fact that they have made a request and it is my job to fulfil it.

Re:Superfluous words...

[geekoid]

politeness is not irrelevant, however it's a poor reason to not conduct the tests.(That sentence seemed odd. Any Grammarian want to help here?)

People being rude hurts moral. Getting people to be polite is a good thing. This is not how to do that.

Also, people need to learnt that Not being polite is not the same as being rude. It's just nuetral.

Re:Superfluous words...

[Bert64]

The idea of "politeness" is completely artificial, and it only hurts morale because people are conditioned to think that way.

This whole idea of politeness is extremely inefficient, you don't type please when entering commands to a computer for instance, and yet the computer will still comply with your commands just fine. Programming a computer to require extra "politeness" statements appended to every command would be utterly ridiculous...

In other areas where efficiency matters, for instance in the army, when orders are issued they don't waste their time trying to be "polite"... They just issue the orders in an efficient manner, and the subordinates follow them.

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[startled]

Would it kill you to do your fucking job...? No? Clean out your desk.

One way or another, that policy's going to have a pretty high turnover rate.

Re:socialized healthcare

[Totenglocke]

How about wanting to be (re-)elected? The new government in the UK is expected to make spending cuts, and reduce taxes for low and middle income people. (Point 3 [bbc.co.uk].) I've been on holiday for a couple of weeks, but I think the changes should be announced within the next two-three weeks.

Well first, you're forgetting the first rule of politics which is to lie and tell the people what they want to hear. I urge you to look at exhibit A, which is all the countless instances of politicians of all levels saying X during the campaign and then after they're elected they do Y. Secondly, do you really expect those cuts (if they're made) to last? I don't. I'll bet you anything that the second the economy improves that spending will not only return to it's current level, but will increase beyond it as well. There's a reason that every government constantly increases it's power and level of spending (the two go together) - because it's part of the very nature of government.

citizens in a democracy have just as little control over the government as citizens in a dictatorship do.

Don't be stupid. I suggest you read some history books, or maybe visit a country in Eastern Europe and go to a museum (or talk to anyone over 25 from one of these countries).

Really? Ever notice how people have no choice in who the candidates are? Ever notice how, regardless of which candidate gets elected, pretty much the same policies get put in place? Ever notice how despite the massive public outcry, virtually all of the "free" countries are rapidly becoming Orwellian police states that monitor everything and where everything is a crime?

You're wanting to play the tired "We have it marginally better than those people, thus we're not a tyranny / police state!" except that it's not true. You're thinking that just because we were only beat up and mugged while the others were beat up, mugged, and raped that we're somehow "free" and "in control". We're all victims of government corruption and abuse - trying to say some aren't just because the level / type of abuse is different is just a petty detail.

Yes, I do. However, I consider paying for education a necessary investment in younger generations. In the recent UK elections I voted for a candidate whose party said they would reduce the amount students have to pay to go to university.

Except, given what I've been told by the friends I have in the UK, education is free - so how can they reduce the amount students have to pay if it's already free? Actually moving to PAY them to go to school? I'm being serious - if what my friends have told me is incorrect, please, tell me the correct situation. Yes, education is important - however it's a massive drain on society if everyone has to pay the unchecked costs of paying for "free" education. There are plenty of ways (such as getting a damn job, taking out a loan, parents helping to pay for it, etc) to pay for college without resorting to stealing from others, which is what government run education boils down to.

You are aware that, not only do you pay higher taxes than people in the US, but your median income is much lower, right? That means that for the average person, after taxes you're lucky to make about half of what the average person does in the US. I understand the selfish desire for socialism - who wouldn't want to do less work and have someone else pay their bills for them? However, it's a drain on society and very harmful to the economy (which makes everyone in the country worse off), not to mention that it's blatantly unjust for one person to be forced against their will to pay for another persons needs and wants........but that's another story. I know, you'll complain, but as I said before, there's a reason people with your views virtually never go in to Economics (as I did) - because the reality of the laws of Economics shatter the dream world where a collectivist "uto

Re:Fire them

[geekoid]

yes "decent folk " let people who don't have to prove they belong their in.

Well done. You're a walking example of why security is always going to fail.

The moral is "Don't forget your ID".

You didn't think the moral is "Let drunk people into a secured area, did you?"

Re:Fire them

[geekoid]

yeah, it's real polite to force religious doctrine into books that will be distributed to public schools.

Texas like to pretend they are polite, but in reality they would stab up in an Ally if you disagree.

Re:socialized healthcare

[koreaman]

I don't have the energy to respond to your whole post right now, but I'll point out that university education costs a couple thousand pounds per year in the United Kingdom, as far as I know. Very cheap, but not quite free.

Re:Would it kill you to be civil?

[Moofie]

What part of your job requires you to call people "you whiny little bitch"? How is that required for you to do whatever it is you do?

I'm saying that your competence is not related to your ability to work within a team, and if you can't work in a team, you aren't valuable to the organization, regardless of your competence.

This is true except for heroically high levels of competence.

I think that this particular policy is silly. However, I think that if the doctors have a history of abusing the people they need to get work out of, then it might be prudent for the doctors to at least take a look at their own attitudes.

Physician, heal thyself, and all that.

Re:socialized healthcare

[Totenglocke]

As I said, I was just going by what friends I have in the UK have told me and if they told me wrong, I'm eager to be educated as to what the situation is.

Re:socialized healthcare

[koreaman]

Feel free to visit the web site of any U.K. university and look up tuition rates.

the most sadistic guy in my high school

[vaporland]

the one who bullied smaller weaker students, popped guys in the nuts with a towel in the shower and forced guys' heads into toilet bowls?

he grew up to be... a dentist.

Re:socialized healthcare

[xaxa]

[dictatorships]

Really? Ever notice how people have no choice in who the candidates are? Ever notice how, regardless of which candidate gets elected, pretty much the same policies get put in place?

Any person can stand. They're more likely to be elected if they represent one of the larger parties, but that's not required to win. In any case, you can vote for the "least bad" candidate, which isn't an option in a dictatorship.

Ever notice how despite the massive public outcry, virtually all of the "free" countries are rapidly becoming Orwellian police states that monitor everything and where everything is a crime?

Unfortunately, there isn't a massive public outcry. My local council wrote to me saying they were planning on installing CCTV cameras in a street nearby. I wrote to object. I asked my flatmates to do the same, and some neighbours. They all thought the extra cameras were a good idea, but didn't really care.

There was a massive outcry against compulsory ID cards in the UK, which the previous government started to introduce. The privacy argument against this wasn't what was visible on the card itself (less than is shown on a driving license), but the big database behind it, which would have recorded whenever the card was used, and various personal data. However, 90% of the outcry was against the cost (people would have had to pay for their card, and government IT projects "always" go over budget), and xenophobia (French people have ID cards, so we don't want them).
The new government is scrapping the cards (the people working on the software have already lost their jobs).

(Was/is there a massive outcry about anything related to privacy in the USA? I.e. regular newspaper articles in several major newspapers, stuff on TV?)

We're all victims of government corruption and abuse - trying to say some aren't just because the level / type of abuse is different is just a petty detail.

There is a huge difference between people being "disappeared", or "re-educated", or whole populations having their movement restricted, and installing speed cameras or whatever. Would you tell the family of someone shot trying to cross the Berlin Wall that the difference between that and a camera-produced speeding ticket is a petty detail?

Except, given what I've been told by the friends I have in the UK, education is free - so how can they reduce the amount students have to pay if it's already free?

Education is free up to age 18. University costs about £3000 a year. International students pay around £12-18000 per year, depending on the course. The difference is the government subsidy.

Yes, education is important - however it's a massive drain on society if everyone has to pay the unchecked costs of paying for "free" education.

It's a massive benefit to society if everyone is educated. At what age do you think "free" education should stop?

There are plenty of ways (such as getting a damn job, taking out a loan, parents helping to pay for it, etc) to pay for college without resorting to stealing from others

Getting a job isn't realistic for everyone. I worked about three hours a week for two years, but didn't have time for more. The university reckoned working more than six hours a week was detrimental to a student's education, and would have tried to find alternatives.

I have a student loan, provided by the government (at roughly 0% relative to inflation), which I used to pay for my tuition fees and living costs. Many parents do contribute, but since that would exclude students with poor parents they can get a grant from the government to (help) pay their living costs.

You are aware that, not only do you pay higher taxes than people in the US, but your median inco

Re:Fire them

[DiscoDave_25]

I appreciate some of what you're saying but how is today's society any worse than yesterday's (or I guess any better than tomorrows?)

Re:socialized healthcare

[Totenglocke]

In any case, you can vote for the "least bad" candidate, which isn't an option in a dictatorship.

Again, you're using the "we're marginally better off, so this is a good way to do it!" train of thought. Voting for the lesser of two evils mean that you're still losing. You also ignored when I said " Ever notice how, regardless of which candidate gets elected, pretty much the same policies get put in place?", which I'm assuming is because you realize that it's true. Hell, the same BS about amnesty for illegal invaders in the US today was used by their opponents 30 years ago. To use a quote from James Bond (referring to the fall of the Soviet Union) "Governments change - the lies stay the same".

Unfortunately, there isn't a massive public outcry.

Perhaps not in the UK, but there have been in the US and other countries, yet the policies are forced into place anyways. Any time this comes up, I remember Brian Cox on Top Gear when Jeremy criticized the US and made a comment about the US losing freedoms - Brian pointed out that, having moved to the US a few years earlier that, despite Americans having fewer freedoms now than we used to, we still have infinitely more freedoms than those in the UK.

There is a huge difference between people being "disappeared", or "re-educated", or whole populations having their movement restricted, and installing speed cameras or whatever.

When did I ever mention traffic cameras? Never. You used a ridiculous example to try to mock the legitmate argument that a corrupt government is a corrupt government and that the difference between a "democracy" and a "dictatorship" is essentially just the illusion of citizens having control.

University costs about £3000 a year.

And yet you think that's expensive?! Jesus Christ, that's a measley $4,500 a year. You can make twice that working an average of 23 hours per week at minimum wage in the US. Hell, you work 40 hours a week minimum wage just over the summer between semesters and you'll make $4,672. That's so low it's a joke to claim that someone can't reasonably afford that without any help from their parents or a loan.

It's a massive benefit to society if everyone is educated.

It's a "benefit" with diminishing returns. A mechanic knowing a little more about Shakespeare, which has no impact on his career nor on the culture around him, is NOT worth the cost that the rest of society had to pay to put him through college. If you can prove that certain important jobs, such as doctors, had more people going in to the field due to everyone else being forced to pay for someone's education, then you might have a point. However, the number of doctors per 1,000 people is essentially the same in the US as it is in the UK (2.3 in the US, 2.2 in the UK) - so obviously the $40,000 per year of med school doesn't scare off qualified people from becoming doctors or other important jobs.

At what age do you think "free" education should stop?

At 18 or whenever they graduate from high school. You know, the time that they're now legally considered an adult and therefore 100% responsible for themselves.

Getting a job isn't realistic for everyone.

Bullshit

I worked about three hours a week for two years, but didn't have time for more.

Sorry, but again, bullshit. You had time for more, but it would've cut into your social life. Yea, I get it, no one wants to work when they could be hanging out with friends. However, trying to claim that you "didn't have time for more" is just plain BS.

The university reckoned working more than six hours a week was detrimental to a student's education

Yea, I had the most hardass professor in my major as an undergrad (he was head of the grad program as well) and he s

Re:socialized healthcare

[xaxa]

In any case, you can vote for the "least bad" candidate, which isn't an option in a dictatorship.

Again, you're using the "we're marginally better off, so this is a good way to do it!" train of thought.

That was a worst case for choosing who to vote for. It's significantly better than having no choice at all. If lots of people don't like any of the candidates then they can field their own candidate.

Unfortunately, there isn't a massive public outcry.

Perhaps not in the UK,

Which is all I can speak for, I don't read enough media from other countries to know for anywhere else.

Any time this comes up, I remember Brian Cox on Top Gear when Jeremy criticized the US and made a comment about the US losing freedoms - Brian pointed out that, having moved to the US a few years earlier that, despite Americans having fewer freedoms now than we used to, we still have infinitely more freedoms than those in the UK.

I just watched that on YouTube. It's a comedy show, and Top Gear fabricate plenty of stuff (e.g. I doubt they were really chased by Americans with guns for writing gay slogans on their cars). Brian Cox didn't argue when Clarkson said Alabama wasn't free. All they mentioned was CCTV cameras.

I see very little difference in the freedom of British and American people.

That's so low it's a joke to claim that someone can't reasonably afford that without any help from their parents or a loan.

(Tuition fees + living costs) * number of children might be significant.

It's a massive benefit to society if everyone is educated.

It's a "benefit" with diminishing returns. A mechanic knowing a little more about Shakespeare, which has no impact on his career nor on the culture around him, is NOT worth the cost that the rest of society had to pay to put him through college.

In the UK we stop general education at 16. I doubt many people that end up mechanics studied English at 16-18 (I didn't). University courses are usually entirely focussed on a single subject -- e.g. I did computer science, and did one non-CS course in total.

If you can prove that certain important jobs, such as doctors, had more people going in to the field due to everyone else being forced to pay for someone's education, then you might have a point.

That's a good way of measuring it. I don't have time to investigate though.

Sorry, but again, bullshit. You had time for more, but it would've cut into your social life. Yea, I get it, no one wants to work when they could be hanging out with friends. However, trying to claim that you "didn't have time for more" is just plain BS.

*shrug* Social life is considered an important part of university here. Companies aren't allowed to require their staff to work more than 48 hours in a week, why should students work more than that?

Article from my university's engineering department student newspaper.

Are you aware that there are a more people earning below the median income in the US than the UK?

Would you like to show me where you came up with that?

Here. Social security in the UK is supposed to not result in poverty, although sometimes it does (e.g. single mum spending too much on beer and cigarettes and not enough on her children).

Because it is? People always bash the US as being so consumer driven - the reason for that is because we're one of the very few countries who have a high enough mean & median income to be able to AFFORD to spend money like that. When even the people below th

Re:socialized healthcare

[Totenglocke]

That was a worst case for choosing who to vote for. It's significantly better than having no choice at all.

Except, in the US, you don't really have much choice - it's typically two virtually identical candidates running against eachother. I realize that it's different in other countries who have more parties, but there are still a lot of parties that are very similar.

It's a comedy show, and Top Gear fabricate plenty of stuff (e.g. I doubt they were really chased by Americans with guns for writing gay slogans on their cars).

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that the hillbillies attacking them was real. Sadly, that is what hillbillies in the south are like.

(Tuition fees + living costs) * number of children might be significant

Well there are dorms or if you live close to the school, you can live at home. Kids? Well, actions have consequences. If you don't want the hassles and expenses of having kids, then don't have kids and think before you screw.

University courses are usually entirely focussed on a single subject -- e.g. I did computer science, and did one non-CS course in total.

That's not how universities are in most countries - you have to take english classes and humanities classes and all sorts of other stuff that's unrelated to your major.

That's a good way of measuring it. I don't have time to investigate though.

The only statistic I was able to find was doctors, which are virtually identical in both countries. I doubt they really track the other professions in internationl rankings.

Companies aren't allowed to require their staff to work more than 48 hours in a week, why should students work more than that?

Because you have two jobs - the job of being a student and, if you aren't rich and living off a trust fund, the job where you make money. I find it amusing that people try to label Americans as "lazy", yet the countries who criticize the US get things like 2 months of vacation a year, work 3/4 as many hours in the weeks that they do work, think it's a crime to have a part time job while you're a student, etc.

While the economy and personal income are important, there's more to life than making money. Yes, there is, such as having the right to not have your property stolen from you! =) Also, harming the economy and lowering the average income harms people in many ways - it causes more stress, is more likely to result in alcoholism / drug use, it raises the likelyhood of a parent becoming abusive, it lowers the overall quality of life, etc. Money isn't everything - but it's typically those who've never been poor who try to brush it off as unimportant. I don't believe any of that, where did you get it from?

It's been shown by Economists, Psychologists, and Sociologists plenty of times. However, I think that the nature of talk shows (such as Dr. Phil) in the US expose us to seeing the results of studies like that more often than other countries.

That's crap. In what way does the government interfere in my life that it wouldn't in the USA?

You missed the point of what I said - I said that the people are willing to accept government control over their lives due to their history of Kings and other tyrants. Americans in general are much more resistant to government control. If you don't remember, we kind of fought a war to get away from an oppressive government about 240 years ago. =)

If you don't want to be free, that's your own choice - but you don't have the right to vote that someone else loses their freedom. You don't have the right to vote away someone else's rights. So where do you suggest living? Somalia? The USA isn't free by those criteria.

Well first I'd suggest attempting to change laws and elect politicians to make the US free again. Tho