Slashdot Mirror
Droid X Self-Destructs If You Try To Mod
An anonymous reader writes with some discouraging news for hack-oriented purchasers of the new Droid X phone: "If the eFuse fails to verify [the firmware information (what we call ROMS), the kernel information, and the bootloader version], then the eFuse receives a command to 'blow the fuse' or 'trip the fuse.' This results in the booting process becoming corrupted, followed by a permanent bricking of the phone. This FailSafe is activated anytime the bootloader is tampered with or any of the above three parts of the phone has been tampered with."
Now people's heads will hurt. Great Job!
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
Someone will find a way around this very quickly
Failes.
At least it makes sense, unlike Nintendo does
'cause THEY can brick their consoles, legit
An eFuse is... what exactly? Why should I care about it? How is it connected to a "Droid X", whatever that is?
Really, what's the purpose of an article summary if not to summarize the important bits of the article? If this keeps up I'm going to need more red pens.
This simplifies my phone shopping -- I now know what *not* to buy, under any circumstances. Nice going, Droid X team!
Verizon has just scored a goal against AT&T. It's not yet halftime folks!
A great excuse to stay away from Droid.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Wasn't the android phones meant to be the openish alternative to the wall^H^H^H^Hputrid compost offered by Apple?
Everywhere I turn all I see are platforms backed by people who hate developers.
If the company which manufactured my washing machine included a termite charge in their hardware booby-trapped to melt the contents of the casing should I try to open it I'm fairly sure that would be illegal in some way.
Ouch. The whole advantage of a Droid over an iPhone was supposed to be that the Droid wasn't locked, so you could modify it. Now we find that not only is it locked, but it has a hardwired kill switch that goes off automatically if you tamper? Ouch OUCH ouch.
Not to defend a company which builds stuff which will brick your phone if you mod it, but ...
Might there be legitimate reasons why Motorola would be required to do this? Patents they've licensed? Covering their asses against the RIAA et al? Perhaps Verizon wanted this?
Or, is this truly a case of a company taking an open platform and buggering it up by locking it? It sounds shifty, but there might actually be strong reasons why they did it in the first place.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Does your phone self destruct if you mod it? Where others don't... Droid does!
Seriously, I can understand your warranty being voided if you do unapproved modifications to a device, but designing the device so it blows up if you try to modify it is just wrong.
Why do hardware companies think they should have the right to own the device forever? Why should I buy a device that has a time bomb built in that may trip if the official software gets corrupted due to a bug?
The whole thing reeks. I'm done with Motorola. What is the point of this exactly? What does Motorola lose by you running a custom ROM? New phone sales when they decide after a year not to provide any Android updates?
In this case it's more a case of "Motorola Evil". Google provides the OS but the manufacturer still integrates it into the device.
My next upgrades isn't until December, but I can already say that Droid X is off the table. Hopefully HTC will have out something new and shiny by then. If not, I'll still go for the Incredible over the X. I've had nothing but trouble from Motorola phones anyways.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
If the trend continues, next generation of mobile viruses won't even need payloads, they'll just have to be there
TFA doesn't explain what an "eFuse" is, but if it's anything like an actual fuse, then shorting it should be easy enough. If it's not protecting anything (in the traditional sense), then the equivalent of "jamming in a penny" should be safe and effective, and would allow hackers to tinker until it gets rooted.
This is a good thing for all concerned!!
Your Keeper
G-
If I purchase the phone outright, wouldn't this be willful destruction of property on Motorola's part? Does a company have the right to destroy a purchased product - after the sale - if the consumer doesn't use it in a prescribed manner?
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
Well, it's more of a Motorola issue than an Android issue. Just because an operating system is open doesn't mean the corporation that installed it isn't going to be a jackass.
It's not as if there's no precedent for this. There's a certain operating system based upon open source components from Mach, FreeBSD, GNU, and KDE, which is somewhat infamous for being closed. At least you can load and run your own programs onto the Droid X, even if you can't update the operating system to your own version.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Ah... I guess I won't be buying a DroidX then. Sad, really... I was looking forward to getting one when the contract was up on my Droid.
And I've been very happy with my Droid. Now, one wonders...was this done to suit Verizon or if it was on Moto's own thinking that it was done. I might not have modded my phone when I got it, but doing things like this are a real put-off. I bought the phone, it's mine to do with as I see fit- and putting in things like this take that away from me. It turns it into Motorola's device or Verizon's device and I'm just renting it. Sorry, you SOLD me a phone guys and if you're concerned about "user experience" or "risks to the network" design the damn phone to not need to be concerned about EITHER- and anything else is lying to the customer outright.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
The thing is that everyone expects Apple to be evil, and Motorola has already displayed that they will bend over and take one shining from AT&T and cripple an Android deployment. I guess it was Verizon's (ironic since good phone/OS was one of the big draws to their network) turn to get some Moto...and Moto stuck it to Droid X'ers. Is Google the only one that will let us really have fun with things like the Nexus One?
1331461 is only semiprime *sigh* Alas - I am just short of 1337.
Sure they will... But I don't appreciate having them try to transform it more into a rental of the device than a sale- and then framing it in as a sale. I'm sure there's other people that'll view it the same way as I.
Sadly, I'm fairly sure Verizon asked Moto to do this- they always seem to find a way to miss the point and try to assert "control" over everything.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Just keep from off from buying the Moto X. These restrictions are good to know early. Thanks slashdot
If developers don't want to use the phone, the platform's potential will be limited to the imagination and the business model of the original vendor, which is usually very limited. Android phones like this one will be selected against. Users will want to 'unlock' their phone's power by clicking the install button in the windows program they download from that .org site everyone they know goes to, and phones that brick when they do this will eventually not be bought. Really its a stupid move for Motorola.
--"You are your own God"--
Something similar always happened with the Milestone (Droid's brother outside US). Motorola is surely gaining a lot of enemies.
Because of this setup--isn't it entirely possible that some sort of malware can be created to actually attempt to brick the phone by triggering efuse?
....after all, why opt for the LESSER of evils?
All evil but for real Linux phones or a Dell streak under your control.
From evil telcos to developers to drm to legal reach down, avoid them all unless for work.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
My understanding is that the Droid X isn't actually at release yet.
If it's a "feature" on the beta phones, it may actually be somewhat understandable. I doubt moto wants people fiddling around with the guts of the protypes, because they'd be rather limited in supply, and it's pretty hard to properly test a phone that's been outfitted with non-standard hacks.
You gotta wonder what they perceived the benefit was of putting this "functionality" in place. I can't think of a single thing they gain by doing this...
A hardware company actually put a self-destruct mechanism in the phone when you change the software.
A. This will get tripped accidentally, even for naive users, and will cost owners money to fix.
B. This violates the idea of ownership of the device. Motorola figures that they're licensing you parts, not selling. For an "open" OS, this is insane.
C. Once you get around it, unless you can destroy the code, you still have that thing hanging around. A mistake or bad combination later on could trip it -- there's no reason to have to put up with walking through a minefield.
All this translates to "Spread the news, blacklist the phone, send a message to Motorola." Because if this goes on as a "who cares" thing, all Motorola Android phones will have it in future and other companies will follow suit.
This needs to be a black eye for Motorola, they need to notice that, and they need to quickly backpedal.
If you own a device then the device owner, not the creator, has every legal right to do what they want with the device. If the device has a built-in tamper mechanism and turns it into a brick then that is part of the devices functionality; however, it would be like saying that if you don't purchase a Toyota factory replacement part then the car's computer will fry itself. I will bet that hackers will find an easy way around this, but if they don't and someone downloads an application which attempts to modify the boot loader, or any other piece, which causes the eFuse to trip, then Motorola and Verizon might be left holding the bag...of cash and dolling it out to device owners.
I'm almost certain Moto is at fault here... As a European Droid (it's called Milestone here) User I am - to this very day - not able to flash Custom ROMs, because Motorola decided it would be a funny idea to cryptographically sign the bootloader. With no reason whatsoever. When asked, they usually reply that they are making phones for users and not for crazy hackers. Those should get get a Nexus One or something instead...
How a broken company like Moto can allow itself to brush of an entire branch of customers like that is a mystery to me, however this "eFuse" seems to be the logical sequel to Motorolas douchebag-policy.
This is just another nail in the coffin for Motorola, who becomes more and more irrelevant every year, being pushed out of the market on both sides by Apple and HTC.
HTC makes the most robust and moddable phones on the planet, and do not try to stop the modding in any way - in fact one may say they passively encourage it.
This post is coming from someone who owns a 4 year old HTC Vogue that came shipped with Windows mobile 6.0, but thanks to the modders, has been upgraded to 6.1 and 6.5, and more recently ove rthe past 3 months, has been running a fully working version of Android that is lightning fast. All on 4 year old hardware.
This is what can be done when you don't shut out your customers - I am an HTC purchaser for life now.
I did follow the TFA to the origin of the story (MyDroidWorld forum), and I still don't see any code, captured data or even a photo of the said eFuse chip inside the DroidX. I understand that the original poster appears to be a reputable hacker, but come on, what kind of real reporting is this? Can anyone else verify these claims? More information needed, thank you very much whoever posts it, because if true, this is an outrage.
Compared to the eFuse, their new iFuse just works, which makes for an infinitely superior bricking experience.
I'm under the impression that the Droid X is intended for the business market, to try to take a bite out of RIM's market share. This sounds like an attempt to make the phone more "secure" by preventing people from getting at the data by rooting the phone. Not that it's necessarily the best way, but thats just my 2 cents.
"Open the pod by doors, Hal" > "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" sudo "Open the pod bay doors, Hal" > alright
There's also another OS that is based upon open source components from Mach, FreeBSD, GNU and KDE which allows me to install whatever I want without having to jailbreak, root, break bootloaders, etc...Clicky
Move along.
The Moto Milestone has a locked and encrypted boot loader as well and that was never on Verizon. It was an unlocked GSM phone.
I don't think VZW is behind this...
I thought they were open, but apparently they have a walled garden just like Apple. I can't install any Apple apps on an Android phone. They are trying to lock me in to only Android apps. I should have the freedom to install any apps on MY phone. It's just another example of the way Google is trying to control everything you do AND they are trying to make money. They make money on AdMob ads, they make money on their app store. Google is so evil.
I do!
As I've said before the time I'll buy(*) an Android phone is the time when the OS is easily replaceable, preferably with a vanilla version of Android. So I can get the latest version and don't have to buy a new phone which is ridiculous and which also would open it up for all sorts of tweaks and hacks from the community.
I don't need a specialized version if the company behind the Phone don't want to share their code with everyone else in the Android community. However I would expect them to share the drivers atleast ..
A phone which actively try to predict this from happening and just don't cooperate is even much less likely to be bought by me.
I understand I may be one of a small crowd but phones made for me and others like me would offer so much more and be way better than everything else out there. Not letting it happen with an open-source OS is just as stupid as releasing the iPhone with no SDK/third-party applications was.
* I'm not in a hurry but if it will take forever then eventually I will have to get another phone.
"Written in JTAG" implies a program written in a language called JTAG.
The problem is that JTAG is a standardized electrical communications protocol used to support debugging of ICs, and often also used to program them.
Nothing can be "written in JTAG" because it isn't a programming language. I question whether the poster on that forum has any clue what's really going on. So far the only evidence of this is one forum post that has very little detail and has some glaring technical/grammatical errors (see above). I'll believe it when I see a more in-depth analysis.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
To be fair, OS X doesn't implode if you recompile the bootloader, which is open source under Darwin. You can either download apps for OS X (many free), make your own using Apple-supplied tools (XCode), third-party paid tools (why?), or use free-as-in-speech-and-beer OSS tools.
This can be done in any combination of interfaces, from CLI and X11 to Cocoa and Carbon.
None of this, or even (to make an accurate analogy) installing Windows or Linux on your Mac, is going to make the Mac go boom. In fact, if you buy the system and install the exact same Linux distro as you did on your IBM or Compaq... it'd work.
I was on the fence between the X and Incredible. They both have pretty much the same specs, the X comes with a memory card whereas the Incredible does not, so I was thinking of buying the X, now I have no interest in it. I hope Moto backs off on this and disables it.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Motorola spokesperson: It's not a bug, its a feature. It will be used to remotely wipe your data and render the phone useless when you loose your droid. [pun intended!]
I hope Motorola get's a nice class-action suit out of this.
Imagine a nice little virus, designed to trigger the 'self-destruct' and some innocent users getting infected.
Markus
Apple evil, Google good.
And it still holds.
Google can't be responsible for everyone else though.
(But they for sure could restrict usage for more open phones by pushing whatever demands they wanted. The risk for them of course would be that phone companies may decide to pick another product and hence Google would lose the data of their consumers. In a perfect world I would had preferred a "open" phone as far as the OS goes directly from Google, which is sure to run future versions. Stock everything would be fine. I trust them much more than any third-party provider.)
> If the eFuse failes to verify this information then the eFuse
> receives a command to "blow the fuse" or "trip the fuse".
Well, which is it, tripping or blowing? Those are two totally different things. One is a lot more fun than the other.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Apparently, this is not the Droid you're looking for.
Well they might be, after seeing what happened to the Droid. Except none of that makes any sense, because the one thing letting people mess with their own devices does is sell more units.
I wonder how long it will take before malware is written that will "trip the fuse" on purpose. Talk about a denial of service attack. If you want to make money off of it, short sell Motorola stock and then release the malware.
When will companies learn that treating their customers badly is bad for business?
Motorola ... how the once mighty have fallen.
Don't these idiots GET IT ?
99% of users will never try to hack their phones.
The 1% who do and end up with a brick will make this situation
world-famous, and Moto will end up looking like assholes.
I for one will never buy a Moto phone again, after the last one I owned
( RAZR, what a piece of crap that was ).
Motorola has jumped the bandwagon to make a clear flaw on a phone to garner attention. My hat is off to Apple for starting the trend.
"Self destruct" is a red-flag "do not buy" for some hobbyists, but it is a "required item" in some environments.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
This Motorola unit has a bad motivator. Look.
Hey, what are you trying to pull?!
You're modding it wrong!
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
So a guy [p3droid] few know posts a speculative comment
and /. takes it as fact? At least p3droid has the courtesy to warn his readers what a conjecture is and that's all his post is.
Where's you god now, Googlebots? WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW?
Come over to the iSide, it's shiny!
And, of course, the term "Tivoization" didn't exactly spring from the aether...
Embedded platforms in general tend to be pretty scary for anyone who values software freedom(or for the "too cool to be ideological" crowd, even the ability to do an OS update after the manufacturer has stopped supporting a device). Some implementations are far more evil than others; but all it really takes to turn "install an new OS" into a "nontrivial hardware hack" kind of project is a bootloader that can verify digital signatures before loading a firmware image, which is a feature available almost across the board...
In this case, though, I'm honestly confused about why Motorola(or Verizon, who has the power of the purse in this case) would spend the engineering dollars on being extra evil. If you get one of these on contract, Verizon already has you by the balls legally, so they don't need to use technology to keep you from carrier switching, and I can't see Motorola having any more interest in exactly what OS I want to run than Dell does.
Is this a play to allow Verizon to give certain of their apps (and associated monthly fees) an unremovable hold on the handset? Are they worried about nefarious baseband hackers buying expensive smartphons and service plans(with actual financial details that have to be stolen, or could be used to identify them) and then h5xx0ring the network, rather than grabbing cheap phones off ebay, or spending just slightly more for a software defined radio that won't even need to be hacked? What's the point?
His only source is a post on a message board, which is itself nothing but speculation.
If they are then Motorola would probably have done it anyway. They sold a lot of Milestones and while they were rooted, you could never replace the ROM. Motorola said that if you wanted to use custom ROMs, go elsewhere.
Seriously, CmdrTaco, use an operating system and/or a browser with a spell-checker.
You decide....
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
Goodbye Moto.
is that Verizon will be the first one out of the gate with Block C 700MHz LTE service -- which will put them on the spot: they are *required by the terms of the license* -- thanks, Google -- to allow any device that meets their published tech specs to connect to that network.
So if the do this to their handsets for LTE700, then they'll just lose sales *directly*.
Fun to watch massive corporations try to turn on a dime.
Microsoft couldn't do it.
Betcha Verizon can't either.
"Brand protection"
They can ensure you don't remove MotoBlur, and the Verizon crap stays in place. Their branding is protected from you.
eFuse is an IBM brain child, and they have it in several of their RISC products. The XBox 360 has one in its xenon (ibm power pc) processor. The Texas Instruments OMAP processors that motorola chose for their droid x are using the eFuse technology. The statement that it is not reversible via software is bull, once you figure it out, you can set up a JTag interface (as any serious modder will do anyway) and then you can reverse the eFuse bits and try your mod again.
And just in case you I need a [citation needed] tag...
http://community.developer.motorola.com/t5/MOTODEV-Blog/Custom-ROMs-and-Motorola-s-Android-Handsets/bc-p/4290#M432title=Custom
3rd paragraph down
Well that totally scraps any desire I had to buy that. You lose... losers.
My karma is not a Chameleon.
In this case it's more a case of "Motorola Evil". Google provides the OS but the manufacturer still integrates it into the device.
Still, Google chooses the license terms. "The phone shall not self-destruct" seems like a reasonable one.
People routinely go to jail for these, not to mention criminal damage, and probably a conspiracy charge just to round things up, which state shall i file the police report in ?
Yes they sold you the phone, but at a drastically reduced price. Sure they'll make all of their money back off you, but keep in mind that you aren't paying full price for the hardware, you're paying a magical lower cost if you choose to commit to their network for 2 years...
If you find yourself facing down the droid, don't let your wookie use it for target practice and it will not self destruct!
That term is not compatible with the GPLv2, which is what the Linux kernel (an integral part of Android) is licensed under.
You fuckers all laughed at GLPv3, but look where it got you.
richard stallman wont stop laughing until lunch over this one. I for one really with GPL3 would become more prevalent to combat this type of activity but moreover i really hope to see a class-action lawsuit out of this malarkey. motorola has never been known as open source friendly, but the corporate culture must have played some role in designing IBM's efuse into a non-military product.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Been a long time since I had a phone from any manufacturer I didn't have a problem with...
I'm surprised so many Android phone makers are leaping onto the lock-down bandwagon this early on. These are the early days of Android, where a huge amount of influence comes from the tech community. The inevitable result of this kind of thing is that word of mouth, as well as reviews on virtually all of the phone blogs, is going to be resoundingly negative no matter how good the Droid X actually is.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
OS X also forced me to modify the boot loader for 64-bit support on a Mac Mini (which I needed to test on)
I can't really see any reason for the blacklisting
Could you perhaps link to the OS X bootloader source? AFAIK Apple does not make the source for boot.efi available
That opinion... You're holding it wrong.
I can do stuff to it. And it actually works as a phone.
Who'd have thought it was possible?
Summaries and titles such as this should always be appended with ... "until someone finds away around it."
Droid X Self-Destructs If You Try To Mod - until someone finds away around it.
-1, Flamebait.
Dare to Hope. Prepare to be Disappointed.
Due to the dubious nature of the source of the information, perhaps it's Motorola themselves "testing the water" of using an eFuse to see what our reaction would be to using it.
It's like Tivoization: the software is open, but the hardware blocks any changes.
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
The laughs will come if consumers decide that they don't care and buy the phone anyway despite headlines saying how Motorola has put a self destruct chip in the phone. The carriers will probably play hardball with every device manufacturer and get this technology in every Android phone so they can brag about an open platform but lock down the updates and stop providing Android updates a year after the phone is released.
If consumers ignore the Droid and other phones that implement such anti-consumer chips, then it'll be a victory for Android users, resiting attempts to take away from the openness of the platform.
Four legs good, two legs bad? Four legs good, two legs better?
Do you have a point?
So, the Droid now comes with a Halt and Catch Fire instruction? What if it can be executed remotely as an attack? That's going to come back to haunt someone.
He bought the machine because of this sticker: http://www.paulkidby.com/stickers/index.html
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
Looks like they beat Tivo on this one. Doesn't GPLv3 forbid this? Oh, right, Linus didn't want to bother with that...
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
You gotta wonder what they perceived the benefit was of putting this "functionality" in place. I can't think of a single thing they gain by doing this...
Verizon makes a lot of money by locking down their phones and selling services - download songs, ringtones, games, etc. If you could load those on the phone without going through Verizon, then they lose money. If you want to use the Verizon network, then buy a new, unlocked phone at full price and use it. There's nothing wrong with doing that. Just don't expect the Verizon branded phone to have the same capabilities.
Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
Where's you god now, Googlebots? WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW?
Come over to the iSide, it's shiny!
Well, it's not with Motorola, the company doing this? What're you saying?
I mean, I know there's classic trolls who intentionally fail to comprehend the discussion at hand, but are you seriously failing to comprehend the trolling you're trying to do? Really?
*sigh* Internet, you're getting dumber and dumber every Eternal September...
This isn't the first Android phone Motorola has done something entirely against the spirit of open platforms to either. For AT&T, they crippled the Backflip, such that it can only load software from the Android Market. (The AT&T Backflip is, in general, a bad phone reportedly anyway, it has virtually all of the Google software replaced with relatively ugly AT&T equivalents for example.)
I've said it before and I'll say it again: mobile phone makers are whores.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
They saw all the press Apple has been getting lately, first for "not really having a retina display" then for displaying the wrong number of bars to indicate signal reception strength. They wanted in on this, so they... wait a minute, they had to have started all of this before the iPhone4 was released. Dunno, maybe they're just plain evil.
Remember, a vast majority of the smart phone buying public just want the smart phone features and apps; they don't care if they can mod the phone or not.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Is all the GPL code in Android under such a version of GPL, that this is legal? I mean, it prevents the user from changing certain parts of the GPL software, something which at least some versions of GPL require, as far as I understand.
Ah ha ha... no, wait, we're pissed at this, too. So now that two companies have been evil bastards, the people who bent over for the first one are laughing at the people who got screwed by the second one?
Serious sour grapes, man.
He's saying that if you install an unauthorized, unsupported, version of iOS on your phone, using a set of convoluted hacks, you can run applications that were developed specifically for people who have installed an unauthorized, unsupported, version of iOS on their phones, using a set of convoluted hacks. Unlike the Droid X, where you can't install an unauthorized, unsupported, operating system on your phone, and so can only install any application you want.
Both the Droid X and iPhone are seriously screwed up, but if I were forced to choose, I'd... well, if I can get a UMTS version, I'd go with the "Droid X". Urgh. Verizon. "It's the Network! (...that makes you sound like you're wearing a ball gag when you're talking.)"
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Android users can buy a different, more open Android device. You've not even got that option on iOS.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
Isn't this exactly what the GPL v3 is designed to prevent (Tivo-ization)? Seems like FSF's concerns are once again coming true. Too bad Linux won't ever adopt v3, it seems.
It really depends on the consumers, the funny thing is that parts of the success of the HTC hero last year for instance was caused by the fact that the phone was rooted rather easily.
If Motorola clearly states up front that you are not allowed to modify the phone and doing so may cause your phone to stop functioning properly then I don't really see what the issue is. If you want to mod your phone there are several models out there that allow it and to some degree even support it.
My concern is that (again, if this is true), one company starts with this, everyone else will follow suit. Like how airlines are going gung-ho over fees. I'm sure that even if HTC doesn't want to lock down their devices, they will be forced to by carriers in order for them to sell more phones.
Right now, it is easy -- just avoid one or two companies when buying phones. However, it won't be good for the modding scene if HTC is forced to start doing dirty tricks as well.
Who the heck designed these phones? Psychlos?
You keep getting handed options, then just purchase the stuff that is designed on purpose to frustrate you. Why not more love for projects like openmoko?
Newsflash. Cell networks are highly regulated and rooted phones can cause issues. This will not impact Droid sales at all except a tiny minority and Motorola knows this.
How does this keep you from putting songs, ringtones, games, etc. on your phone outside of Verizon - this doesn't lock you into Verizon's ecosystem at all. It locks you out of loading your own unofficial (unsupported) firmwares, bootloaders, ROMs, and operating systems. But as far as what you can do with Motorola's stock-ish Android, you can do anything any of the other Androids can do, right?
Droid, DroidX, Droid2 and others -- they all have this efuse, it's nothing new. Perhaps rather than making assumptions based on the presence of a device, someone could do some actual research to find out if this is really a concern? Just because the chip is present does not mean it's configured to brick the phone - it certainly hasn't done so in other Android devices using it.
What'd the Droid guys do, have koolaid with the book of Jobs?
From where I sit, Motorola / Verizon are more evil than Apple / AT&T. Well, OK, AT&T is pretty fucking evil, but the reality is that Apple has never been about open devices and so has never violated any trust with any communities, because iPhone has always been a walled garden. On the other hand Android is wide open, yet they are coupled with Verizon, notorious for locking down phones and removing features, and Motorola who knows fuck all about good software. Android + (Verizon and Motorola) seems like oil and water to me. Plus the Droid-X software seems to not be getting good reviews today: http://gizmodo.com/5587225/motorola-droid-x-review meaning that hacking it is even more desirable.
I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
"In this case it's more a case of "Motorola Evil". "
No, you are only half right.
It's very likely, given their past conduct, that Verizon asked for this.
Both are companies which will never get another cent from me.
CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW, MOTO & VERIZON ?
yours, in the SERVICE dimension
( in the physical-object dimension it's yours,
but the two dimensions are orthogonal )
This is inevitable, part of TPM & DRM.
You won't be permitted ANY modding or customization, in a few years, because that would interfere with corporate "persons"'s property, ie The Market.
Enjoy.
I would guess that if Verizon is the one that is requiring this of Motorola, then they are doing it to restrict people's ability to tether 2.2 without having to pay Verizon.
The Android 2.2 platform has built-in wifi tethering that you have to pay your carrier for in order to use, an extra $20/month or some such. Rather than do that, a quick root and install of a free wifi tether app allows the owner to bypass the carrier Tether requirements and build their own little wifi network to access the 'net from any wifi capable device without paying... The data becomes just another set of packets.
If you're looking for a business reason, that's it.
-SM
...buy a different handset? Something about freedom.
RS.
Galaxy S. I have one, and it's awesome. Samsung even open sourced their code for it.
This is because the moron corrupted the boot loader. Its the exact same thing if you muck your Bios on a PC... Also he uses the term Bricked, its not bricked as a phone that is Bricked is locked, his phone is just experiancing an id-10-T user error, which unfortunately means this user needs to purchase a new phone..
Well, this makes it a lot easier for me to answer this question from OpenSource.com.
Hopefully there will continue to be full price ADP phones, that I can continue to subsidize with a $20/month discount on T-Mobile.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
And the information that is out there regarding the model offsets is out of date, too. During the past month I was rewriting a kernel extension to add 64bit support and couldn't test it on the mini for this reason. I never found offset information for the 10.6 bootloader.
Why does apple block booting 64bit on non-pro machines? That's easy -- it's to differentiate machine capabilities and preserve margins. Apparently, not all drivers are available in 64bit kernel space, either, so one could argue it's a slight support reduction.
Even a locked down self destructing Android phone is 10x more open then an iPhone. You know you can still install your own applications, right? You know you can use your locked up tight Android phone for streaming podcasts (over 3G no less!), tethering, instant messaging, multi-tasking, wifi metering/sniffing, file management, accessing FTP servers, playing non hardware-supported media types, google latitude, free theft protection, customizable home screens, widgets, porn(!), universal file system, change the default launcher, use skype, flash, use non-webkit browsers, use a full bluetooth stack, VOIP, tight google voice integration, expandable memory, remote or local torrent control, reading around the world in 80 days by Jules Verne, offensive apps, installing apps outside the app store, listen to nine inch nails, use alternative music players/music stores, dope wars, watch south park, use alternative keyboards, voice texting/typing, plenty of navigation apps, replace the battery, alternative SMS/alerts/quick reply apps, search emails, apply custom themes, console emulation (nintendo, sega, super nintendo, ps, etc.), sample apps and return them if they suck. The iPhone does none of those things (or does them in some sort of crippled way) so who is laughing at who?
or else!
If Moto was reaching out and remotely killing your phone, that would be of questionable legality. But since the capability is built into the phone from the get-go, I would think that it could simply be considered a "feature" of the phone. As long as the phones documentation mentions that mods can cause problems, Moto is home free since you were warned this could be an issue from the beginning.
Personally, I don't think Moto gives a crap if you mod your phone, but the providers they get to sell the phones most certainly do.
SirWired
some cars do this to lock in there carp radio / cd player.
The FCC / DMCA lets you unlock phone is this braking the law?
any way THERE IS WAY TO MUCH LOCK IN THE CELL PHONE MARKET!
Moto almost certainly does not care what you do with your phone. Once they've sold it to the provider, they aren't getting another dime out of the thing, no matter what you do to it. Providers, on the other hand, care very much what you do with your phone, since they want to sell you things to run on it, and have a great interest in restricting your activity.
Remember that Moto has two customers for every phone: You, and the provider that's selling the phone to you. If the eFuse makes it more likely for a provider to decide sell a phone, and the number of end consumers that care is low, then it makes sense to implement the eFuse.
SirWired
Where's you god now, Googlebots? WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW?
Come over to the iSide, it's shiny!
Will do. Just as soon as iProduct doesn't require iTunes and will mount as a standard USB storage device on any device that can use USB drives.
Glad this story broke, I was planning on buying one of these. Droid Incredible it is, then.
It's not as if there's no precedent for this. There's a certain operating system based upon open source components from Mach, FreeBSD, GNU, and KDE, which is somewhat infamous for being closed. At least you can load and run your own programs onto the Droid X, even if you can't update the operating system to your own version.
Except large chunks of OS X (and hence iOS) are F/OSS, remain F/OSS and are distributed from a website under Apple's control.
Granted, they don't provide a complete stack from which you can put together your own OS based on OS X from scratch and run it on your own hardware - nor does the iPhone come as a piece of hardware which makes it easy to run some other OS on, but they can hardly be described as "infamously closed".
1) Buy Droid X
2) intentionally find website that installs rootkit/bootloader
3) Sue Motorolla for breaking my phone
4) Profit
(Might be able to get 3 as criminal destruction of property charges as well.)
It's interesting how the other carriers/phone vendors are seeing why Apple did what they did with the iPhone and are now following suit with Android-based phones. I'm sure I'll be modded into oblivion for this (why I posted Anonymously), but the whole point of a device like a smartphone is that it *works*, anytime, all the time (errr, unless it's AT&T >-p), without the worry of malicious code, viruses, etc. I can understand the desire to customize and modify things, but when the service provider's reputation is on the line they tend to err on the side of caution (as Apple did from the get-go) and lock out mods/hacks of their devices.
I know, I know, you/I/we bought these devices, as opposed to renting them, and we should have the ability to do what we want with them, but I can also understand the other side of the coin and how it could cause problems for providers, too. You have to remember that in order to use the device you still need to interface with a provider's network and they aren't going to be happy if whatever hack/mod wreaks havoc on their network or affects other customers.
Goodbye, Moto!
Why are you starting your comment with "Except"? Normally that means you're contradicting the comment you're responding to, but in this case it seems that you're adding useless information that doesn't add to the topic or in any way invalidate the point you're responding to.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Well, kudos to Mot for coming right out and stating it clearly. I won't waste any time/thought chasing them.
This is typical of Motorola the company. They pull the same shit with their radio products. If you buy a commercial radio it can only be programmed with their RSS software suite that is intended for dealers only. If you wanted to buy RSS it is very expensive and comes with all sorts of covenants and restrictions on it's use.
For them to plant a modification time-bomb in the Droid X is not surprising in the least. For those of us in the radio business we typically refer to Motorola as the radio-mafia.
The hell with Motorola, buy the Android OS on a different hardware platform. Do not paint that "Android" is bad because of one bunch of dumb asses.
Tisha Hayes
This makes me sad that Google probably will not make another phone like the Nexus One. This proprietary, protectionist crap is getting really old. I was totally going to buy the next gen Nexus One. Oh well. I hope someone else steps up to the plate.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
Motorla razr you can load mp3 ringtones...
Verizon motorola razr, mp3 ringtones are not allowed unless bought through the phone and installed with the phones installer. the files can go there, but the ringtone DB is never updated..
verizon loves to screw the customer, they do it all the time...
But then so does AT&T.... Most AT&T branded nokias are missing 1/2 their features.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
embedded platforms got that way because the idiots in the Executive offices should have ZERO input into the design of the product. It's those assholes that demand locking it down and adding in features to keep the customer from gaining any extra value from the product. It all started when the scumbags made 1 product and sold it as 3 different products with 3 different prices but only software unlocked features...
you can buy the pro model that has 3 zone of audio... Yes it's the same hardware as the base model, we just enable everything in there.....
Kind of like windows 7... it's all in there, just not enabled...
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
News flash, most of us have known about motorola's evilness...
I knew they were evil in the 80's when they refused to release specs on some of their commercial radios... they even would grind off the chip numbers simply to screw with radio hackers and ham radio operators...
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Droid-X-Class-Action-Lawsuit/140421085984192
1. He is a reputable, well-known hacker
2. Moto acknowledged all this shit, in less detail, months ago: http://community.developer.motorola.com/t5/MOTODEV-Blog/Custom-ROMs-and-Motorola-s-Android-Handsets/bc-p/4290#M432title=Custom
Sounds fishy to me.
I'm really disappointed by this. I love my work Droid and have been considering the Droid 2 for my personal set when it came out. With this kind of restriction (if it is true) I guess I'm back to looking at HTC sets.
"I'm not a quack, I'm a mad scientist! There's a difference." - Dr. Cockroach
To be fair, OS X doesn't implode if you recompile the bootloader
Android does not, either. The check here isn't on software side of things - it's hardware.
Even shinier with that duct tape to let it work properly.
In this case it's more a case of "Motorola Evil"
Actually I suspect it may be more of a case of "Verizon is evil". Phone manufacturers have shown a little bit more willingness to open their phones when they're not trying to please carriers. Verizon probably wants to make sure you can't give yourself free tethering or something.
Can't wait for it.
Burn FAT not OIL
Android is free - which implies freedom for third parties to lock it down. It is an unfortunate but inevitable side effect of true freedom.
Yes, it's nothing new for phone manufacturers to team up with networks to try to prevent you messing with the bundled software. The only new part is that they're not just voiding the warranty, they're deliberately nuking the hardware (allegedly). I hope the contracts are bullet proof, it's one thing to say I lose my warranty cover if I modify the contents of a handset I own, quite another to say I don't actually own it in the first place (and honestly, if they want to knock a few hundred pounds off the phone contract because I'm no longer buying the handset, I'd be okay with that!)
Reading comprehension is not your strength is it? 1) p3droid admitted right from the start that it was all guess work but somehow everybody ran with it and concluded that there should be "shame on Motorola" etc, 2) Motorola admitted to locking down the bootloader but not to bricking the phone in case an attempt to replace the bootloader was made. Btw, reports came in that the Droid X does not get bricked when trying to fiddle with the bootloader.
He's saying that if you install an unauthorized, unsupported, version of iOS on your phone, using a set of convoluted hacks, you can run applications that were developed specifically for people who have installed an unauthorized, unsupported, version of iOS on their phones, using a set of convoluted hacks. Unlike the Droid X, where you can't install an unauthorized, unsupported, operating system on your phone, and so can only install any application you want.
How did you get that when he was specifically talking about Mac OSX? He even said "which allows me to install whatever I want without having to jailbreak, root, break bootloaders, etc". I don't disagree with your point but I'm not sure it's the point GGP was making (or even that he had one other than not all "Apple OSs prevent you installing what you want").
Where are all the "I'm glad I didn't buy an iPhone because it's locked down" people at right now? The "it's my device, I do what I want" crowd? Granted, the story is completely unverified, but I hope it's true. Then people can shut the hell up about the walled garden I live in, because at least I don't have to worry about land mines there.
All this bad publicity they're already getting, and once again, Apple decides to fuck over their users who just want to mod their devices. Oh, wait. Never mind.
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
The mobile connectivity seller (VZ, ATT, etc.) is the phone mfr's customer. You are not.
The last thing the VZ et. al. wants is an open phone.
How can they charge you for a 20s ringtone or a silly little "app" plays a particular sound file on command?
So, we start with Android, billed as "this great mobile OS from Google that lets you play with your toys"
And now, we have "droid"--"fsck you, it's our phone just give us the money".
This is only because the service providers want it that way.
Buy a cheap taiwanese knockoff and get a SIM card from TMobile.
Mod it; if it breaks, chuck it and try again.
Now, if only there were a place to buy such a device...
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
In past days this would be properly seen as a hardware quirk to be worked around. Like a buggy SCSI controller which trashes your disks when you hit it with an obscure command sequence. You don't throw up your hands, foam at the mouth, and threaten the manufacturer! You figure out what you need to do to avoid the undesirable behavior.
My God, you modder people are turning into a bunch of pussies and whiners. THE WHOLE POINT OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING is to have fun and push the hardware into areas it was not meant to go. In this case, the manufacturers have laid a few things in your path to make life interesting. Take it as a challenge, as we've always done in the past, rather than acting like a whiny bitch. My God, the hacker spirit is well and truly dead.
According to the wikipedia article, it can be tripped in a non-volatile fashion, meaning that power-cycling won't fix it. But it can also be reset electronically if an appropriate electronic interface is provided.
Does that remind you of anything? As far as I can tell, it's just marketing-speak for one bit (literally) of embedded flash memory.
While I can imagine some interesting and useful applications for flash embedded in CMOS logic, this seems like a technology that's ripe for abuse by lockdown-happy vendors. It's annoying enough to brick a computer by flashing the wrong BIOS, or to brick a router by flashing the wrong firmware, but at least in those cases the flash memory is on a separate chip. Either the chip is socketed (removable), or there are usually test points or a JTAG interface, allowing the flash to be rewritten to a correct state.
But with tiny amounts of flash deeply embedded into CMOS logic, there's no way to alter or even to find the non-volatile memory. Yech...
My bicyles
At least you can load and run your own programs onto the Droid X, even if you can't update the operating system to your own version.
Are you telling me you are actually DEFENDING this?!?
Opine all you want about Apple; but in 4 generations of iPhones, has Apple ever BRICKED a phone ON PURPOSE for Jailbreaking? Think they couldn't do it if they wanted to?
Yay, Rah! Open Source Forever!
Even when it really isn't OPEN at all (Android, I'm looking at you).
BTW, your little list of Open Source-ish projects that you INFER Apple has "closed" not only is utter bullshit; but worse, completely and conveniently ignores the DOZENS of Open Source projects Apple has either CREATED or participated in as part of OS X and iOS development.
Now, how many OSS projects have Verizon and Motorola created and/or participated in (and LEFT Open!) in the development of the Droid X?
Idiot.
Oh, and mods: Score 3 INSIGHTFUL for THAT bullshit?!? Feeling like your precious FABLE of "Open is Everything" is falling prey to corporate evil? And even more threatened that someone made an ANDROID phone that is TRULY LOCKED DOWN (unlike the bullshit that passes for "insightful" about iOS devices around here, which at least don't PREVENT you from stepping outside the so-called Walled Garden by INTENTIONALLY and PERMANENTLY BRICKING YOUR PHONE)?
Now go ahead and mod me Troll all you want; but you KNOW I'm right.
As an engineer I work to make hardware robust and failure resistant. But to make hardware that actually will destroy itself is insane.
We all know software is never absolutely perfect. There are always bugs no matter how comprehensive the testing. Somewhere, sometime there's an application that does something to throw an exception. We've all seen kernels crash. It happens.
So Motorola has put into their device a mechanism that can at any time there is a crash kill the hardware permanently??? That can only lead to one result. A massive recall and/or class action suit to replace thousands of bricked phones.
I'll go one step further - they have planted the most perfect exploit ever. Just write an app that causes the fuse to trip. You cant, you say? It's too protected? Bull! Go ahead and live in la-la land where everything is perfect, software never fails, and no one writes malicious software.
Ok, how about the fact that Android is open source. As always, the open source community is willing and able to help with bugfixes, features, and patches to make what is a great mobile operating system even better. That is the point, Motorola! Get it through your tiny, pointy head! It's not *YOUR* O.S. And it's *MY* hardware. After I buy it, I can use it, smash it, drown it in water, and run over it with a truck. I paid for it, I didn't "rent" it, and I don't need your blessings to upgrade it.
I'll stick with my HTC. At least until they decide to follow suit...
Welcome to Slashdot, you must be new here!
In case you hadn't noticed, this is a technology site where a large number of people are dedicated to "fucking with stupid shit" on a regular basis. So talking about modding your phone is kind of right up the proverbial alley here...
"But this one goes to 11!"
If engineers/designers/etc spent as much time figuring out how to make things work, instead of figuring out how to make things *not* work, we'd be a lot better off!
iPhonians are busy scratching their heads as to why this is news worthy.
My wife had all 4 wheels removed from her car while we were sleeping. The car was parked 3 ft from our front door, and we never heard a thing.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
See also, "How to make a dumb smart phone."
Why are you starting your comment with "Except"? Normally that means you're contradicting the comment you're responding to, but in this case it seems that you're adding useless information that doesn't add to the topic or in any way invalidate the point you're responding to.
Much like your idiotic harangue. However, out here in the real world of reading comprehension, we adults realized that the "Except..." beginning was simply a colloquial language pattern that really means "However, in rebuttal to your statement".
Fucktard. YOU are the one that was "adding useless information", not the GP.
You still don't get it, huh? The whole point of open software is that when one company does something like this, there are plenty of other options. When Apple does something like this (which they do all the time), you're stuck with it.
Seriously, Motorola fuses the Droid X to prevent tampering with the bootloader, etc, etc. So if you attempt a mod, it bricks the phone?
Ok. Let's roll with this for a moment.
So I buy a Droid X, fulfill my 2-year contract, and I've fulfilled my obligations, paid my bills, and I'm off contract.
Does Motorola or VZW disclose that even after this, the phone is limited to official software rleases, and despite being both out of warranty and fully paid for, it's still 'locked' to official software?
Bogus. If I have paid for it and Moto and VZW have no further obligtation to support it or even repair it at any expense, why would they care? what does it matter to them if I mess with the software?
Well, it's not at all about what happenbs to the phone after contract. It's about the 2-year contract, and that's all.
Since most users ditch their phones after the contract and upgrade at the first opportunity, Moto/VZW have little incentive to accomodate users that keep the phone past the contract. The most obvious reason is to sell a new phone, AND and a new contract. Alternatively, though, why expend any effort to support a phone that is, by marketing, considered obsolete? Let it die, and the users will re-up with a new phone and all. Moto/VZW win, you just keep on paying for a phone no matter what.
And during the contract, Moto/VZW have learned from the Android community that those hacking root and installing custom ROMs is a non-trivial portion of their users. It brings with it support problems (l0sers bricking their fonz), possible network impacts (users bringing up WiFi hotspots and cranking data), and discontent from other users (asking "why don't you give me Android 3.0, the modders have it, I hate you", causing angst and loathing amongs the user community and possibly impacting future sales). Samsung is getting a dose of this for a couple of phones that aren't going to get Android 2.x OTA updates, and T-Mobile risked it with the G1 (my phone) not getting Android 2.x at all. So a big impact here is the fragementation of the user experience, all the reputaitonal damage, and just the complications.
But there is something EVEN MORE SINISTER at play here, and both Motorols and VZW are players well-experienced at this. It's ALL about revenue. That's right, this is about profits. Directly impacting the bottom line.
This is not the first time Moto/VZW have 'conspired' to lock users into their desired experience. Remember the RAZR? Many users could download ringtones and have some fun. But not VZW users. Not only were ringone downloads via USB blocked, but also on Bluetooth. Intentionally. Of course, you could BUY ringtones from VZW. Nice chunk of change, too. This happened with GPS services also, and wasn't limited to VZW.
I do not doubt that 'fusing' the Droid X is in part intended to keep the users on the VZW farm, and prevent them from installing non-Market apps, ROMs, and probably even getting services that VZW would rather you pay for. We'll find out about that very soon.
One more reason for me to avoid Verizon. As if I needed another. And Moto also. Just an in-your-face slapdown, reminding you they have an ownership stake in YOUR phone.
If you can't root it, it's not yours.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Well they might be, after seeing what happened to the Droid. Except none of that makes any sense, because the one thing letting people mess with their own devices does is sell more units.
Like any good slashdotter, you have a HIGHLY inflated idea of the size of the "geek" market.
To the Motorolas and Verizons of the world, you are as the buzzing of flies.
So one sale is not a sale? Just because it's not "significant" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Let's see, what can't I do on my iPhone without jailbreaking it? I can install my own applications for $99/year, and this gives me the opportunity to sell applications in addition. The iPhone 4 will tether, it's just that AT&T won't allow it. iOS 4 does multitasking adequate for any use case I've run into. It's got a Skype app, I can get alternative music players, I can get Verne on iBooks and other readers, I can ssh to my home box, I can surf pr0n sites....why don't you come back with a list of things the iPhone really doesn't do and we can discuss that?
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I knew Verizon couldn't keep this whole open phones thing up. It goes against their very core culture of lockdowns built up over many years.
Where's you god now, Googlebots? WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW?
Come over to the iSide, it's shiny!
sorry, couldn't hear you... I think you were holding your phone wrong.
Before everyone gets their panties in a twist, wait for Motorola to comment. This is just rumor, after all.
Motorola has admitted that they are locking down the firmware, and gone so far as to say that if you want to mod your Android phone, buy a Nexus One. They have not acknowledged any kind of bricking booby-trap so far as I can find.
That said, I'm most definitely not a Motorola user anyway. I despised their stupid bloody Krazr phone the instant I pulled it out of the box, and when it completely shattered, 2 months later after a 20 inch drop to a wood floor, I didn't improve my opinion of their phones. I don't think this is going to help them much, but I also don't think it's going to hurt them much. As another poster mentioned, it's just not on that many users' radar. Nobody cares except the modding community.
Now, in the interest of Full Disclosure, I expect my shiny new HTC Incredible to be shipped today. This will be my first smartphone (I know, I'm a Luddite), and I don't know what to expect. I don't expect to muck with the boot loader, though I may opt to gain root access after I've studied the pros and cons better.
Motorola has been doing this with devices, even pre-cell phone revolution. Look at their old pager lines - i.e. the Pronto, Bravo, etc. They used to let providers "lock down" the pager with a programming PIN. Want to change the capcode? You need the PIN. Put the PIN in too many times, and you have to replace the code plug, which meant factory service. (Essentially, you had a dead pager.) See here: http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/pager/pagerpw.txt
If you wanted to be pedantic, it should be "written in BSDL" as that is the language in which you directly control JTAG. Many people that have used JTAG wouldn't care about the distinction. And yes you can write code in BSDL to control JTAG.
I get confused by the acronyms. I know "BDS" is Bondage, Domination, Sadism, (or "slavery"-- take your pick), but what's the "L" stand for in "BSDL"? Licorice?
"Bondage, Sadism, Domination, and Licorice"-- yeah, sounds like a typical programming language specification. Except for the licorice.
No, the GGP was adding useless information. Actually, I'm not even sure he did that, he basically restated my statement about Mach, FreeBSD, GNU and KDE in slightly different terms.
Kind of like you really. You're claiming that I didn't realize he meant "In rebuttle" to when my objection to his idiotic comment was that it wasn't a rebuttle. Note my complaint, which you even quote (yet appear not to understand): "Normally that means you're contradicting the comment you're responding to, but in this case it seems that you're adding useless information that doesn't add to the topic or in any way invalidate the point you're responding to."
The GGP was adding nothing of value. He began his comment with "Except", restated using different language my comment about much of iOS being made up of FOSS software, and didn't establish anything of interest. He appears, at the end, to think restating the comments he's replying to means he's come up with a brilliant argument demonstrating convincingly that iOS is not notoriously closed, but he makes no statements in support of that.
That wasn't a rebuttal, it was just dumb. As are you.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Brought to you by the department of redundancy redundancy.
No sig today...
I can't tell if you're trying to be sarcastic, but I'll bite. You really think that paying $99 a year is a good way to have a 3rd party application environment? How does that enable a community of any kind? Seems like you're probably only able to install apps that you write at that point and that is nothing compared to being able to access a development community. What if your business model doesn't match Apple's rigid App store?
What good is tethering if you're not allowed to do it? It's effectively the same problem. What good is multitasking if you STILL can't do instant messaging? What good is even having instant messaging if you still don't have anything even close to a reasonable notifications system?
You cherry picked a few things out of a long list and even those are pretty piss poor substitutes.
Look, I love the iPhone and I love iOS, but if you're trying to defend it as being open then you're delusional. I own an iPad. It's a toy. I would never accept an OS like that on my phone.
or else!
One simple example would be storing an encryption key in the eFuses. If the software experiences X number of failed login attempts the rest of the fuses are all blown rendering the key gone.
Nooo idea if this is the reason but in my eyes it looks like a way to do it.
One could also have a secure cipher processor in the device where the eFuses are located and have the chip only accepting decoding requests if the eFuses are in the correct configuration. This means that software can blow fuses to disable the chip without having to actually communicate directly with the chip lessening the attack surface of it.
Heh... Won't wash. You can have the service without the device. You're on the hook for getting another unit to use the service if you lose or destroy it. If it were directly coupled like you implied there, they'd have to SUPPLY you a new unit outright under all cases.
It's not coupled, even though they'll try to run that one up the flagpole all the same.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
You're right, I misread his point (although now I understand it I'm even more annoyed by it because it doesn't have any relevance to anything!)
I suck!
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
If I paid for the hardware then it's mine, I own it, in spite of what big telcom wants you to think.
I was actually considering getting this phone, I guess they just lost a customer.
^^vv<><>BA
I guess that is the euro-peon way to spell boogers..how quaint and continental and all...
anyway, I said "like" Openmoko. And here's the deal. No huge corporation is going to sell you an open anything any more, it conflicts with their skewed notion of "shareholder value" and "leveraging their intellectual properties" and other buzz speak. So..ya'all phone modders can either start supporting projects like openmoko, so it can be developed beyond the "boogers" stage, or just keep whining that your new iGS turboprofitphone is "locked down" and you can't do what you want to do with it.
Also on telco "plans".. I see kvetching galore about stupid two year "plans".. geez loweez this *ain't* rocket surgery, stop using plans, stop rewarding those lame ass "plans", go prepaid. Vote with your wallet, or don't be surprised when eventually your options for cellphones plus connectivity have been narrowed down to very sucky versus extremely sucky. You get what you pay for, keep paying for closed off/locked down two year suck plans on closed off/locked down suck phones, they'll keep selling that to you.
I was in a bad mood, I'm probably all QQ about Apple ignoring Mac OSX and is instead wasting (in my opinion) time and money on stupid endeavors such as all things iOS...
My point was that people seem to forget about the OTHER operating system that Apple has is based upon open source components from Mach, FreeBSD, GNU, and KDE...and it's closed as well...it's just not a walled garden of app store shit...
Not in the English version, no. Although I'm told that aliens from the planet Todhsals, who speak a language that sounds exactly like English, but in fact applies different meanings to every word, have interpreted it that way due to that unfortunate English/Todhsalsian "sounding alike but meaning totally different things" thing. For example, where I wrote:
Well, it's more of a Motorola issue than an Android issue. Just because an operating system is open doesn't mean the corporation that installed it isn't going to be a jackass.
They interpret it as "My chickens are jellied mine leader catscan Motorola nuts, and I tore up my bus pass my Android I did."
And
At least you can load and run your own programs onto the Droid X, even if you can't update the operating system to your own version.
Apparently translates to: "Zounds! Coffee grounds Droid X is good wookie vodka, my underpants are off."
I'm guessing you're from that planet?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
>> Not only were ringone downloads via USB blocked, but also on Bluetooth.
>> One more reason for me to avoid Verizon.
Dude its not only Verizon. my Cingular (now AT&T) Sony-Ericsson W810i did exactly that too. Even though a stock W810i supports the user putting their own tones on, with the Cingular-supplied one, if you wanted to use anything other than a small selection of (probably purposely) very crappy built-in ringtones, you had to buy/download them via the phone. Furthermore once bought, they only lasted about a month!! the intent was to force you to re-buy eve the same ringtone at least once a month.
I refuse to buy phones from a network providers since that experience. I prefer to pay the overhead and get a fully functional phone by going directly to the manufacturers or unaffiliated dealers. Besides, all the phones that network providers carry (AT&T at least) are a very limited choice entirely comprising of outdated or undesireable models.
http://stevenbird.info/2010/07/15/droidx-today-is-the-day-more-security-info/
"But wait![...] what about the efuse?! Guess what? google "omap3 efuse"
Droid, Milestone, DroidX, Droid2...all these phones have efuse...they just really haven't been put into use...
Will your DroidX explode from unauthorized tinkering? probably not. (but wait for someone else to try it first if your scared of the big bad efuse :p)"
Doesn't sound like the modding community is too worried.
I wouldn't be laughing. Unless you have a SHSH copy saved somewhere on Cydia or somewhere else, the iPhone still is waiting on a jailbreak, and has been for half a year now. One guy (Geohot) even packed up his toys and left, so we have one less person working on the iPhone.
At least with Android, you can buy a N1, and go to town. iPhones are locked up tight, and any work on a jailbreak is back at square one due to iOS 4.1 coming out.
They are a bigger problem for a wood phone, I think.
eFuse - sounds innovative. Where's a patent troll when you need one?
Additionally, by bringing my unlocked Nexus one to T-mobile I have stayed on a grandfathered (cheap) voice+data plan that I have no reason to move from (a new plan would cost far more) - so in inflation adjusted terms I am saving money the more years I stay on it. No exactly the unsubsidized discount I wish I had - but close - a cheap lock-in. If data and voice prices decreased then I would look at switching plans as I am now outside my initial 2-year agreement.
HP/Palm continue to support their homebrew community, and provide a virtually un-brickable device that you can modify without even compiling any code.
WebOS FTW!
I've worked with licensing Motorola IPR (though not their cellular division), and have some experience with the Motorola attitude toward protecting their intellectual property rights.
Let me see if I can give you an idea of how Motorola is:
Find some African honeybees - not these pansy little "Aficanized" European bees we have in the US, but honest-to-God chase-you-for-5-miles-cause-you-dared-breath-near-our-nest African bees.
Via the Dark Arts, cross-breed these bees with Yellowjacket Wasps ("the skinheads of the insect kingdom").
Take some wolverines, infect them with rabies, and let them rape the bee/wasp crossbreeds. Again, via the Dark Arts insure offspring result.
Feed those offspring on a steady diet of crack, PCP, meth, and Talk Radio.
Grow them to about the size of a Dire Wolf.
These crossbreeds will shriek and run like scared little girls upon encountering ONE of Motorola's IPR folks.
Hmm... My Cingular/AT&T Sony T637 took ringtones just fine. I could even use MP3s.
But I used floAt's Mobile Agent back then, and it kicks ass. I still have that T637, and after 5 years in a drawer, I take it out once a year, charge it, and it stays in standby for a week. I've dropped my SIM in and made a call. I may never give that phone up, it's my disaster go-to phone in case I brick my G1 or my wife's Curve stb again.
You should have gotten floAt running. Wiked cool. Sort of like BitPim. Do you suppose the Droid X will let ya drop ringtones on it? I can't wait.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Just another reason to ignore Motorola and get an HTC. Motorola phones are always crappy quality anyways.
too bad you can't apply the Lemon Law to a whole company. I sure deserves it..
Droid X is a lemon - let your attorney general sink their teeth into the Motarolacrap.
The provider. And least from what I read you can't buy just a phone in the USA.
Eh?
I thought I'd made my point obvious enough, but clearly not.
Not only are Apple taking F/OSS, they're contributing back to the community - Webkit is the most well-known example, but there are plenty of others. There's nothing stopping you - or anyone - building their own OS on the Darwin core, and indeed at least one project which does just this exists:
http://www.puredarwin.org/
You'll wind up with an OS which is essentially Mac OS X under the hood, it just won't have the shiny UI. (Whether or not there is any point in OS X without the shiny UI is another issue altogether).
As I said, they don't open everything. Nor do Novell (ZenWorks isn't available in a F/OSS version, AFAIK) or IBM (DB/2 was still a proprietary product the last time I checked) yet you don't see people on /. decrying them because they haven't released every line of source as F/OSS.
I can only think of two counter-arguments to this:
1. You don't think this is enough. Everything should be open. Well, if the developers of projects from which Apple have taken code wanted every last bit to be and remain open, they'd have licensed it under the GPL. If you're a developer on such a project, the risk of someone taking your work, packaging it prettily and selling it was always there and you should have accepted that before you started. If you're not, what on Earth does it have to do with you?
2. You're a troll.
My Verizon phone (Motorola) has bluetooth, USB and microSD disabled so I have no way to upload or download without going through the Verizon store. I could pay someone to unlock it and risk bricking the phone. Adding the eFuse prevents even that risky choice.
just a matter of time until there is a worm bricking peoples' phones
how will V deal with that?
I couldn't even read more than 5 sentences from that review since it was written so horribly.
If you buy the phone SIM free. If you buy it on a contract it is subsidised and it's not your phone until you complete the contract.
The counter argument is that you're not making one. I said that despite iOS's use of open source components, iOS is notoriously closed. You said, to paraphrase, "iOS includes some open source components, look, see, Apple lets you download the code. Therefore it is not notoriously closed."
Now, repeating what the guy just said and saying "So n-uh! That means you're wrong" isn't a winning argument. Especially when you're wrong. Which you are.
iOS is notoriously closed, despite having open source components. It's fairly easy to prove, just run it against some obvious tests:
Test 1
While many manufacturers make phones running Android, Symbian, and FWIW J2ME/MIDP, only one makes a phone running iOS, who happens to be the developer of the operating system. Why is this?
Test 2
My employer wants me to write an application that will connect all of our employees to the Asterisk VoIP system, so our employees will be on the office phone network whether in the office or off site. Can I make this application available for the iPhone?
Test 3
A politician has made a particularly stupid comment about paying for healthcare by bartering for services. I want to write an app that ridicules the politician by letting users take photographs of objects and have the box tell you how many cancer treatments you can get in exchange. Can I release this for the iPhone?
I want to write an application for my phone, but while I'm happy to use the native APIs, I'd like the code itself to be written in Java, because that's the programming language I'm most comfortable with. I'm quite happy to use something like GCJ to compile it to native machine code before release. Can I develop such an app for the iPhone?
Test 5
I'm not really a programmer but sometimes I want to put together tools for my own personal use, like I did on my old Macintosh with Hypercard. Can I do that on my iPhone?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
All my phones for the last 8 years have been purchased straight out. So bite me.
The Goal: A long simple life filled with many complex toys.
ok, so we just a system image that passes the checksum, anyone know which algorithm they use??
If it's md5 or anything stronger we are screwed.
A simple CRC check tho.... could be kludged with some random data appended i think...
the reality is that Apple has never been about open devices
It was until Woz left.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
That's funny as shit man! I love learning new goofy stuff like that. the open booger phone! Yes, I can see why this might not catch on too well in some areas! BWAHAHAHAHA!
Glad you liked "euro-peon". I see a lot of murican bashing all the time, thought I would contribute a little good natured back whenever the opportunity presented itself. Good natured razzing and all. Heck, I am a US southerner, a RURAL southerner, we get bashed here all the doo dad day long....fun is fun, we can take it...
Here, have some yuks at our expense ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBocef6iQps&feature=related
Anonymous? Really, Anonymous. Don't be so silly as to give the author any cred on this story at all. If this were actually the case the support side of the house for Motorola would be too high. Until they can get a verifiable source, this story goes where it belongs; in the trash.
What is likely, and the challenge, is that Motorola, with the urging of Verizon, locked the phone down so it will be very difficult to unlock the bootloader. But, to brick the phone just doesn't make any business sense and you can bet both Motorola and Verizon both know that.
I'd put my money on the original article being written by an Apple fanboy wanting his/her 30 seconds in the spot light for spreading....er....FUD.
Sean
An inside source at "a very large wireless provide" says that android-based phones are going to be locked down soon to a closed "app-store." There are other hacker unfriendly things coming too according to my source. It is unclear whether google or the cell phone companies are requiring the changes.
Now don't you wish you got a Nokia/N900 instead?
and /. takes it as fact?
You must be new here.
AT&T isn't evil, they are incompetent :)
Not true. When you buy the phone, liquidated damages (something called an "Early Termination Fee") gets tacked on if you don't complete the contract. It's your property the moment the credit card gets swiped through the reader or the cash goes in the register.
By law, if you request that your phone's SIM-lock (if GSM) be removed, or that you be given its MSL code (if it's CDMA), the phone company MUST give it to you as long as 30 days have elapsed since purchase. I'm not 100% sure, but I think even the 30-day waiting period can be eliminated if you waive your right to cancel the plan or return the phone.
American phone companies (at least Verizon and AT&T by virtue of being AT&T's offspring) aren't allowed to keep the phones as secured assets or lease them due to the consent decree that broke up AT&T's monopoly 25 years ago that prohibited them from forcing customers to lease phones instead of purchase them from independent sources on their own. I'm not sure, but I think the FCC incorporated its terms directly into its own regulations, so they probably apply to Sprint & T-Mobile as well. On the other hand, that might be the reason why Verizon was grudgingly forced to open its network to any phone you can physically figure out how to make work, while Sprint can get away with refusing to let anyone use any phone not purchased from Sprint.
I believe the first cell phone companies tried to lease phones to customers, but were prohibited from doing so by the FCC out of concern that if carriers were allowed to lease phones, the price of purchased phones would be wildly inflated and customers would be forced into leasing anyway. As a practical matter, subsidies turned out the same way (in the US, at least, though Google's fought the hard fight to at least try and change it a little).
So, there's a wide open market for a completely wide open hacker friendly phone geared towards the US market right now? Maybe someone here who knows what they are doing might jump on that...
I'm on an odder network, iden (sprint/nextel) with boost prepaid. It may not be the fastest network, well, it's the slowest, but it is very reliable where I am, the data plan is only 35 cents a day unlimited, calls are ten cents a minute or you get all of the above unlimited, along with push to talk walkie talkie and texting, etc for a flat rate of $50 a month, yada yada. I went that way from another prepaid and a verizon account before then. Also, where I am in the southeast, they have the *best* emergency backup gear for dealing with outtages and so on, the power line guys use it, etc. Complete mobile towers ready to roll to any hill top and turn on with their own gennys and stuff. Backups for backups.
A place as large as slashdot, one might think there was already a someone out there who could see the potential market you describe. I just slap wasn't aware that open moko wasn't a good radio choice for the US. Seems a rather decent little niche for a startup to fill, especially in this hard to find a job economy. Creating your own job for a product that could have a decent demand seems somewhat doable. As in not trying to get uber rich, but make a fair living at it maybe.
I have zero idea how to do it, not an EE or radio engineer though, so I can't help ya there.
You might want to check out the Samsung Galaxy (coming to VZ sometime soon). HTC isn't entirely free of sin, either. Read all the complaints about them at xda-developers.com over their kernel source. Basically, the GPL2 requires source for anything that's compiled into a monolithic kernel, but Linus (and most reasonable people) have come up with a tolerable compromise for proprietary binary modules that involves neatly packaging them up as loadable kernel modules with a well-defined interface so you can rebuild the rest of the kernel around it without losing whatever hardware support is provided by those proprietary binary modules. The problem is, HTC compiled their drivers straight into the kernel instead of making them proper loadable kernel modules, then simply hacked them out of the source before releasing it. The net result is that you can't use the source HTC released to build a functional Android-ready Linux kernel for their phones, and we're STILL reduced to ripping rom images from newer phones in the same family in a desperate effort to get them to work on our phones.
I don't know whether Samsung does the same thing, or whether THEY release their binaries as proper .ko modules. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for now (planning to get an Epic4g myself, assuming something like this doesn't crop up at the last second to ruin it). I'm still trying to verify it myself, but if they do, then Samsung deserves major praise (if only because the rest of the handset makers are so completely fucked).
'Junkware' comes standard on Verizon, T-Mobile smart phones
So yeah, I was looking forward to owning this phone and now I'm not. How can Motorola go so far astray with an Android phone?
Help stamp out iliturcy.
... They will be wanting their geeky friends to put non-compromised software on it. Seriously: 'Junkware' comes standard on Verizon, T-Mobile smart phones - and cannot be removed. What - the - heck - are - they - thinking? Shovelware ... on a phone. That can't be removed. Son, I am disappoint.
We finally get a cutting edge, utterly awesome Android phone platform and it comes with the modern equivalent of AOL that can't be removed - and not just one, but a whole suite of demo-ware, trial-ware, nagware, a freaking MOVIE - none of which can be deleted. Fabulous.
Does anybody at Motorola even understand what this Android thing is about?
Help stamp out iliturcy.
And that's why a bank has the right to stop me from building on my land as long as it hold the mortgage.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
No, a mortgage is a loan secured by the property. When you buy a phone, even a subsidized phone, you legally own it outright the moment you sign the credit card slip or hand the cashier the money.
... are we talking about an M88 (Firecracker) that blow off the hand of the happless user or ... the M86 (thermonuclear warhead) that renders an area the size of New York, New York to zero elevation?
Such details need to be known.
Can you explain how it is holding wrong?
This self-destruct lock is basically the same thing as TiVO, and the GPL v3 contains anti-TiVO provisions.
No we see why GPL v3 was necessary and v2 should be retired.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
The counter argument is that you're not making one. I said that despite iOS's use of open source components, iOS is notoriously closed. You said, to paraphrase, "iOS includes some open source components, look, see, Apple lets you download the code. Therefore it is not notoriously closed."
Now, repeating what the guy just said and saying "So n-uh! That means you're wrong" isn't a winning argument. Especially when you're wrong. Which you are.
iOS is notoriously closed, despite having open source components. It's fairly easy to prove, just run it against some obvious tests:
Test 1
While many manufacturers make phones running Android, Symbian, and FWIW J2ME/MIDP, only one makes a phone running iOS, who happens to be the developer of the operating system. Why is this?
Test 2
My employer wants me to write an application that will connect all of our employees to the Asterisk VoIP system, so our employees will be on the office phone network whether in the office or off site. Can I make this application available for the iPhone?
Test 3
A politician has made a particularly stupid comment about paying for healthcare by bartering for services. I want to write an app that ridicules the politician by letting users take photographs of objects and have the box tell you how many cancer treatments you can get in exchange. Can I release this for the iPhone?
Test 4
I want to write an application for my phone, but while I'm happy to use the native APIs, I'd like the code itself to be written in Java, because that's the programming language I'm most comfortable with. I'm quite happy to use something like GCJ to compile it to native machine code before release. Can I develop such an app for the iPhone?
Test 5
I'm not really a programmer but sometimes I want to put together tools for my own personal use, like I did on my old Macintosh with Hypercard. Can I do that on my iPhone?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I would agree with you 100% if you were buying a $900 Droid X. But you are not. You are buying a $200 Droid X. The Droid X is not a $200 phone. It's much more than that, and the phone companies are subsidizing your purchase to get you to sign a two year contract. If you want to take advantage of their loss leader, and then break the contract, that's something they'd like to prevent.
I'm not saying I agree with this business model, but the stance of "I bought it, it's mine" is misinformed at best and juvenile at worst.
I would like to take this moment to give a shout out to T-Mobile, which actually offers a bring your own phone plan for less than the subsidize your phone plan.
Can you provide more details on this / links to pricing?
o/~ Join us now and share the software
um. yeah. whoosh.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
Forgot to mention that the Milestone over here was not really successful, because the early adopters wanted a semi open phone, I guess the hero and G1 sold more than the Milestone over here, also the Nexus 1 probably already has done. The Milestone users are pretty angry over the bootloader issue.
As more and more bad-guy software begins to attack phones I can see ALL these phones getting bricked by some evil bad guy. Should this happen the vendor would have an obligation to restore them to functionality and quickly at that. And while I am at it no IT department should permit a single vendor to dominate the cell phone population in the department. We might all love to have the latest iXYZ phone but any business critical environment needs to be aware of another risk... If you cannot call your 7x24 service guy/ gal or they cannot answer you are out of business for way too long.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
Someone will find a way around this very quickly
It's not even clear if this information is real. TFA links to a forum post which doesn't seem to actually contain a source of the information (the OP states it's a mix of "hard information" and "conjecture"). Said forum post then links to the eFUSE wikipedia article, which lists Droid X as having an implementation of eFUSE. However, if you look at the Droid X wikipedia page linked to from there, you'll see the original mobilecrunch.com is what is cited for the eFUSE inclusion bit.
I'm not saying there is something fishy going on, but this could easily not be true.
Sounds like an astro-tufing campaign using fox news or coulter style circular references (stewart loves dismantling these on the daily show).
I'm a fan of the mac platform, but this looks like a clever ploy by *cough* certain competitors *cough* to tarnish the platform in general. It's the pavlovian training with inconsistent stimuli.. "one android phone has this horrible bomb in it, I wonder how many others have undiscovered 'features' ".
I don't remember being able to use my Apple formatted floppy disks with my IBM PC, or run my TRS 80 code on my Apple II...
I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
Nothing open source gets any better if no one wants to work on it. And usually any open source project starts out at the "this kinda sorta works, but still sucks..needs more love" stage.
Like I mentioned in another post, I am neither a programmer nor an EE, so I can't help on making a truly open phone a reality. There is definitely a niche market there though for a good open phone that could be used across the US networks. Heck, I don't even have technically a smartphone yet, just a good enough feature phone with a full keyboard, but if an open phone existed that worked for me I would consider that for my next phone. That's the best I could do to help.
I wonder how Motorola is prepared to handle potential issues with opportunistic radiation and kernel storage bit-flipping. Just saying...
This article is a handful of sh*t. The author has no clue of what the eFuses (or Android) really are, and it seems he simply does not understand the security features of the Texas Instruments' OMAP 3630. Maybe an iPhone fanbuy?
The OMAP 3630 is the full-featured CPU (ARM Cortex A8 + video/audio/2D/3D accelerators) which is integrated in Motorola's phone, but IMHO it will be integrated in many successful phones because it kicks the other mobile CPUs' asses (think Qualcomm, Samsung, and the rest).
The OMAP 4430 is even more powerful (ARM Cortex A9 dual-core + many ARM sidekicks for acceleration), and TI is coming with more.
The development of OMAP is really focused on Linux support and open-source communities. And ANYBODY can buy a development platform (it is called the ZOOM board).
RIP Slashdot. I used to love you. dead account - but slashdot wont let me delete it.
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/atts_first_android_phone_doesnt_allow_nonmarket_apps
http://www.intomobile.com/2010/06/05/sprint-htc-evo-4g-ota-update-here-to-save-your-sd-card-issues-and-kill-your-root-acces/
So.... uh... "black!"
1. AT&T is retarded
2. That update didn't kill root access.
or else!
I regularly come across articles from fields I know next to nothing about by silanea (1241518) writes: on Friday July 16, @03:11AM (#32923708)
We know that much from your crappy showing here in this link http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1725068&cid=32960808
I am not the base metric of what is interesting for everyone. by silanea (1241518) writes: on Friday July 16, @03:11AM (#32923708)
See subject silanea and this choice excerpt and quote of your own words while you trolled others and first from the exchange you lost badly on technical information alone above:
I am bored. Let me poke the troll. Brightens up the day every time by silanea (1241518) writes: on Tuesday July 20, @10:07AM (#32963666)
That's proof enough you are nothing but a troll, and right from where you started it there in this link from that exchange here http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1725068&cid=32963666 .