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US Senator Proposes Bill To Eliminate Overtime For IT Workers
New submitter Talisman writes "Kay Hagan (D) from North Carolina has introduced a bill to the Senate that would eliminate overtime pay for IT workers."
The bill is targeted at salaried IT employees and those whose hourly rate is $27.63 or more. It seems comprehensive in its description of what types of IT work qualify — everything from analysis and consulting to design and development to training and testing. The bill even uses "work related to computers" as one of the guidelines.
And if this idjit is still there, I know I am voting THEM out. What a maroon.
to be kidding me. Let's see if we can get a vote up to lower THEIR pay.
Hurray, no more working late!
Wait.. they still expect people to work without being compensated for their late hours?
Did EA send out lobbyists again with briefcases full of money?
Already living this. Welcome to the Sweat Shop Of The 21st Century!
This would effectively make unions the only options for such workers.
Fucking scam artists.
IT work already has a terrible education:pay ratio and the pay is nothing special in relative terms, that's a strange sector to target...could it have something to do with outsourcing?
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
That means I get to go home at six, right?
8 hours work for 8 hours pay.
Don't work for free, people. After all, you're just an employee to them, not a BFF.
I recently saw a guy who had worked at my current place of work get given the shove after nearly 20 years. Escorted him out of the building and everything. He sat in the pub blubbing like a baby and asking how they could be so cruel after everything he'd given them.
I've vowed never to work a minute past what I'm contracted to do, and if I have to I simply come in late the next day.
THE HONOUR OF THE KNIGHTS - CC Licensed Sci-Fi Novel
I work for the government and we get paid OT and comp time.
... and their site is down. If only they had some IT guys who could do overtime to bring it back up...
Prk
The move is not as nefarious as your headline suggests. This bill is to fix a problem... if you pick up your smartphone and reply to an IT question after business hours, did you work overtime? Of course not. Definitions of being "on call" and responding to server hiccups, etc, should be between you and your employer and not part of some collective bargaining union crap that labels your email reply as "overtime".
They will walk all over you as they please now.
Steal your rights, steal your democracy. Treat you as a slave.
They will trash your protests and spray you down.
Here comes the global fascist state.
... if it got rid of congressional pay and prevented IT workers from having to work more than 40 hours.
Time to offend someone
$27.63 seems oddly specific
But with the amount of overtime pay in the IT community someone will pretty soon realize that unless people actually sometime work overtime to fix problems it won't be long before people start cutting up old tires to make body armour.
- "There is nothing quite like an ineffective solution to an nonexistant problem"
That's like a fantasy for most of us.
If you want a good job vote this man OUT!
I think you mean, "vote this woman OUT".
Sure looks like...
I've read the bill's text but I haven't ascertained any rationale for it. Clearly they think there is some cost savings to be realized, but where? All that will really happen is the skilled workers will get salaries/wages to offset the loss of overtime, leaving the less skilled and fresh grads with the less desirable pay/positions. The net result is less people will want to get into IT due to this new barrier to entry.
...to the ranks of the salaried and professional employees where overtime pay is negotiable at a disadvantage, and often missing.
...this is still surprising to see this coming from someone with a D after their name. This is not because they are fundamentally more decent, but their usual constituency doesn't really seem to buy the "blame the middle class" argument, at least not as much. This seems like a really, really dumb idea, if for no other reason than the political fallout it will create.
To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
Aren't most IT workers exempt anyway? (Not that I think they necessarily should be, but still.)
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
This is already the case in our company; salaried employees are marked as "Exempt"... which means, exempt from getting paid overtime. How is this a government legislative issue??
How does this make sense for govn't.. isn't this a Private sector issue?
It *is* a private sector issue. You see, people who wanted to pay less for IT guys bribed these senators to pass this bill. The senators rubbed their hands together and agreed. Now they each have a new car.
The bill is short so below is the full text from thomas.loc.gov. For a congressional bill it is surprisingly readable.
To amend the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 to modify provisions relating to the exemption for computer systems analysts, computer programmers, software engineers, or other similarly skilled workers.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Computer Professionals Update Act' or the `CPU Act'.
SEC. 2. AMENDMENT TO THE FAIR LABOR STANDARDS ACT OF 1938.
Section 13(a)(17) of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (29 U.S.C. 213(a)(17)) is amended to read as follows:
`(17) any employee working in a computer or information technology occupation (including, but not limited to, work related to computers, information systems, components, networks, software, hardware, databases, security, internet, intranet, or websites) as an analyst, programmer, engineer, designer, developer, administrator, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is--
`(A) the application of systems, network or database analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine or modify hardware, software, network, database, or system functional specifications;
`(B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, securing, configuration, integration, debugging, modification of computer or information technology, or enabling continuity of systems and applications;
`(C) directing the work of individuals performing duties described in subparagraph (A) or (B), including training such individuals or leading teams performing such duties; or
`(D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C), the performance of which requires the same level of skill;
who is compensated at an hourly rate of not less than $27.63 an hour or who is paid on a salary basis at a salary level as set forth by the Department of Labor in part 541 of title 29, Code of Federal Regulations. An employee described in this paragraph shall be considered an employee in a professional capacity pursuant to paragraph (1).'.
Time to offend someone
Note that that the headline says the bill would eliminate Overtime, whereas the summary says Overtime Pay. I'm all for eliminating forced overtime, but overtime should be paid. Otherwise, you'll lose the good IT staff, and that can decrease the productivity of the whole organization. Isn't having 5 employees accomplishing 10% more work within a 40 hour week worth paying an IT technician for an extra 3 hours of work?
I am going to take a page out of the great depression. the Kellogg cereal company during the great depression lowered the max hours one of their workers could work from 40 to 30 or so. while the people who were working at first did not like the lowering of their income they did like the effects it had on the city around the plant. kellogg to fill the gap hired more workers who in turn only worked the shorter amount of time, but it helped prop up the rest of the city. costs of food and the like there went down and even though the average income went down the people there including the people who had their hours cut ended up liking it. especially the increased time with their family. if they eliminate overtime and the position had scheduled overtime before they should then fill the gap by hiring someone else.
Since I'm not from the U.S. I might have misunderstood something here, but does the U.S. senate really have the authority to change in employment contracts for the worse?
Where I live, the government can enforce things like minimum wages, but if my contract includes overtime pay, then the only way it can disappear is if my employer and I renegotiate the contract.
His theory of capitalism was, in a nutshell, that an employer's goal was to increase profit by increasing the amount they could make their workers work without paying them anything extra. Which is, of course, exactly what is being codified in this law.
Consider some widget that cost $300 to make $250 in materials and $50 for 1 worker to work 6 hours on it. But our capitalist wants to make more money, so he makes his worker work 12 hours instead of 6 (which the worker accepts, because being unemployed is so much worse), so now he has $600 worth of widgets, which are now $500 in materials, $50 in labor, and $50 in profit.
Regardless of what you think about communism, Marx's theories of capitalism need to be taken seriously, because the guy was predicting, in the 1870's, a lot of the economic behavior we see today.
I am officially gone from
so if its some brand we have dealings with, we can avoid the whores ( i apologize from all sex sector workers) like the plague in our dealings.
Read radical news here
Wait, some of y'all been getting overtime pay?
I'VE BEEN ROBBED!
Anything is possible given time and money.
Yeah, but the private sector owns the gov't.
How does this make sense for govn't.. isn't this a Private sector issue?
I have worked my way up from Network Tech to Director of IS... so I made the switch from hourly (non-exempt) to salary (exempt) and since then have had to deal with who is and isn't exempt.
It all comes down to what positions are considered "professional". My take on the subject has usually been that if the employee has the type of work that is difficult to measure and determine if they are truly working hard or stretching it out, then they are exempt. Exempt employees are expected to know what amount of work is truly needed and get things done in the least effort possible.
As a competent sys-admin, do you need to parse all 100MB of that log to determine the root cause of the error? How exactly does the boss know you did or didn't need to (yes a competent manager should have a clue, but it's more difficult than you think). Programming is the same way... I could hack it and get it out in a week, or be so damn picky it takes a year.
My position has usually been that people in these positions are able to determine what level of work is need to satisfy customer demand and not do unnecessary work. BUT, it is always a judgement call with IT. If you get it wrong, make a guy salary, make him work 60 hours to get a project out and he then sues, you can be held liable for back pay.
It is a difficult balance between leaving grey areas (because a lot of it is grey), and the government formally defining who is and isn't exempt. I would not immediately defame the Senator introducing the bill... they may actually be trying to do a good thing for employees. This is a messy area of personnel issues, and if they are successful in bringing clarity, all will benefit.
I hate how Congress thinks it can legislate anything it wants, and whatever it can't legislate in can hold a "hearing" on and then impose some ridiculous punishment. Interstate commerce. It's not meant to be a gateway for doing whatever the hell you want, it's supposed to be highly restrictive and limiting.
Such an oddly specific number, why not round it up to $30?
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
There are hourly IT folks making more than $27.63/hr? I thought IT was predominantly salary/exempt because of this very issue...?
How is this different than the plight of software engineers, hardware engineers, or designers that work outside of the IT industry? How is it different than the legions of R&D folks that are listed as exempt employees?
I'm not saying it should happen. Far from it. But the real battle is that technical professions all over have been moved to exempt status and their employees continue to be forced to work exceedingly long days for 8 hours of pay. It's not the IT guidelines that need reform, it's the ones for all technical professions.
This is not a sig. this is a duck. quack.
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cycle=2012&cid=N00029617&type=I
I don't see any obvious IT related industry donors from the past that might be influencing her (who knows about now). She is on the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions committee so thats probably where it came from. Strange.
It mostly goes province-by-province, but in my province (Alberta), IT technically does not qualify for overtime pay.
However, the reality is quite different. Our job market never really suffered the ill-affects of the recession, so things have remained pretty red-hot here. Unemployment is at 5.4%, and factoring in systematic unemployment, it's practically nill - help wanted signs everywhere. Employers would never actually get away with this here. If you pulled that crap on someone, they would simply leave, and make a bit more elsewhere. The job market here is incredibly competitive (given a labor shortage), you'd have no problems getting a job elsewhere.
While a company might not actually pay overtime, they'll still acknowledge it and let you take time off in lieu. I don't technically make overtime pay, but any time I spend over and above the normal 40 hrs/wk, I can take off elsewhere.
3 of the 4 sponsors of the bill are republican. go figure.
Read radical news here
What kinds of companies do Kay Hagan and the other sponsors invest in? I know there are supposed to be laws preventing congress members from knowing the composition of their portfolios, but I don't know enough about it to understand why those laws don't seem to have any effect.
How bout they stop worrying about our overtime pay, and start considering getting the career politicians out on the street.
How does this make sense for govn't.. isn't this a Private sector issue?
It's a government issue because the government defines what overtime means in the first place.
If it were purely left up to the private sector, people would still be routinely working 12 hour shifts 7 days per week for base wages, like they did in the 19th century before governments got involved.
I'm not sure how if this law applies in the event of a labor strike. But is this partially a response to the Verizon strike, where many employees who worked in their various NOCs were given massive overtime to compensate for the striking workers in the North East. I worked in the Cary, NC building, but I had just left the company before the strike occurred, so I don't know the specifics of how everyone got compensated for the overtime.
Senator Kay Hagan
http://twitter.com/#!/senatorhagan
http://hagan.senate.gov/
521 Dirksen Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Phone: 202-224-6342
Fax: 202-228-2563
According to govtrack.us, the bill is currently being examined by the Subcommittee on Employment and Workplace Safety (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/committee.xpd?id=SSHR11), so it may be worth your while to write to each of the 13 Senators on that committee. What they "decide" affects all of us, not only those whose states they represent.
There are a lot of us, like you, that care about the quality of our work. To think
they can legislate something that actually should be between an individual and
his employer just proves we need to get over this "party" crap and start demanding
an IQ test of our politicians.
dreaded scurrilous bit-twiddler from Oklahoma
Great news! Another victory for the 1 percent!
CURRENT LAW:
(17) any employee who is a computer systems analyst, computer programmer, software engineer, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is—
(A) the application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software, or system functional specifications;
(B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications;
(C) the design, documentation, testing, creation, or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems; or
(D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C) the performance of which requires the same level of skills, and who, in the case of an employee who is compensated on an hourly basis, is compensated at a rate of not less than $27.63 an hour.
NEW BILL:
(17) any employee working in a computer or information technology occupation (including, but not limited to, work related to computers, information systems, components, networks, software, hardware, databases, security, internet, intranet, or websites) as an analyst, programmer, engineer, designer, developer, administrator, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is--
‘(A) the application of systems, network or database analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine or modify hardware, software, network, database, or system functional specifications;
‘(B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, securing, configuration, integration, debugging, modification of computer or information technology, or enabling continuity of systems and applications;
‘(C) directing the work of individuals performing duties described in subparagraph (A) or (B), including training such individuals or leading teams performing such duties; or
‘(D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C), the performance of which requires the same level of skill;
who is compensated at an hourly rate of not less than $27.63 an hour or who is paid on a salary basis at a salary level as set forth by the Department of Labor in part 541 of title 29, Code of Federal Regulations. An employee described in this paragraph shall be considered an employee in a professional capacity pursuant to paragraph (1).’.
Dare to Hope. Prepare to be Disappointed.
As you can see, the hourly rate and the type of worker involved has not changed at all. It appears that they're merely clarifying the definition of a computer services professional.
Personally (and I know this is going to earn me a few "troll" points from our faithful moderators), I am against mandating things like time-and-a-half and double-time pay. Although it sounds like a good deal for hourly workers, in fact it probably discourages employers from paying people more. They'll just get a part timer to come in and do the extra work, or offshore it, or some such.
I'm in IT and when I'm hourly, I love to work 50-60 hours a week. I don't give a damn about all these overtime rules; I just want to make more money. But since around 2001, companies have been much more reluctant to let people bill more than 40 hours a week unless the top management grants special permission to get some project done or some such.
Frankly I wish the government would just stay out of these matters and let the free market decide what's a fair wage, what's fair hours, etc., but maybe I'm naive :)
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
Please don't remind me.
Unless you actually hold a stake in the company (meaning you are part owner), then your boss holds absolutely no loyalty to you. You are merely a cog in the machine, replaceable for a predetermined cost. In that case, there is no logical reason to be loyal from your end -- what are you going to get out of it? A big fat letdown, that's what.
It all comes down to what I like to call the "3 P's of climbing the corporate ladder": Perception, Perception, and Perception. The days when loyalty, hard work, and dedication made a successful career are long gone. Today it's all about social skills. ALL about social skills. If you want to advance your career, start spending more time building your "persona" and less time doing actual work, because that "persona" is what will actually make you successful, not your accomplishments.
After first being acquainted with this amendment, I went to look at what currently is law... and, quite frankly, as an IT person, I ~already~ appear to be covered by the previous broader/more vague definition already in the code. Can someone analyze how impactful the difference in language ACTUALLY is?
When I took my position, I accepted a much lower number than what's quoted, and I'm salary. I'm actually surprised there is even a need for this bill - pretty much every full-time IT person I know is salary, and there isn't any hope of overtime pay.
"Better to be vulgar than non-existent" -Bev Henson
I'm an English professor. For what it's worth, I'll offer a comparison. (Mostly for people who were as ignorant as I was before entering the job market.) Doing the math, I see that the $27/hr is about $4320/month gross, without overtime. That's just over what I make as a professor with five years experience (I have a high salary for my field). After taxes, retirement, and health insurance, the take-home for that amount of pay is going to be right at $3,000 a month. It's not enough to keep my family out of the red some months, since there are four of us, and my wife can't get a job with her IT degree (from a major research school!). So this is not exactly a bill that would be soaking the rich. It's hitting middle-income earners. Next point of comparison: in my field, there's no such thing as overtime for a salaried person. I never knew such a thing existed. If it did, most academics would be on a gravy train, as it's easy to hit 50-60 hours a week during the academic year, with summer workloads dropping back down to 30-40 (if you're doing your research, which you'd better if you want tenure or promotion). I thought the whole point of salary was locking you into one amount of pay so that the employer could work you as hard as they want without paying more. (I guess I'm still ignorant.)
IT workers propose bill requiring citizen referendum on any congressional pay raises
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
This is all much ado about nothing. There are no real changes to current law here - the computer professional exemption has been a part of the FLSA for years at least - probably decades. See the Department of Labor fact sheet - http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17e_computer.htm The proposed amendment has 2 purposes. 1) It provides a more detailed definition of computer professional. 2) It cleans up the weekly salary requirement by linking it to the standard salary requirements, instead of existing seperately. The hourly number is the same in both versions. So there's essentially nothing new here. This is a cleanup/clarification of existing law, with almost nonexistant changes.
They want to change it to this:
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Unfortunately, we already have that law in Oregon.
http://www.google.com/profiles/malachid
I'm not saying I support this, but in order to understand this proposal you have to understand what an exempt employee is in US (and state) law. (IANAL: this is my rough-and-ready understanding of the system). There are two categories of employee, exempt and nonexempt, and different labor rules apply to each, about things like overtime, unionization, and benefits. There are several tests for whether a given job is exempt or non-exempt, including salary and job description. In general, people with managerial or administrative responsibilities are exempt, whereas those who work hourly and do not supervise others are nonexempt. But it's incredibly complicated (see, e.g., this page). So many IT workers were in a grey area, and this bill proposes to put those above the salary cutoff on the exempt side of the line. It does not mean singling out IT workers for some uniquely debased, exploited status, but rather putting them in the category of professionals/administrators/managers (which confers both downsides and potential benefits). You can agree or disagree with the move, but you need to appreciate how it fits into the context of American labor law.
.sig withheld by request
Yeah, good luck to them getting anyone one to work on Senator's computers ever again. Email, internet, and computers frequently have problems. Nobody has to crash them... we just don't have to fix them once they do. A day without IT can be a real bitch, just like some Senators.
"Ah, gee, Senator. My shift ended at 5pm and I don't do overtime. Call back tomorrow between 8 and 5pm."
I8-D
Yep, too ugly to be a tranny.
When I worked in the US, between graduating (1995) until 2001, we were already "exempt", in other words exempt from getting overtime payments. It's one of the reasons I left the US, the crappy work/life balance and the expectation that working unpaid overtime was the norm for software developers (I've since heard my old workplace now effectively requires - not during crunch times, but the actual norm - something like 50 hour weeks while only paying for 40. During crunch times of course they demand far more).
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
You mean a new computer with lifetime support, right?
What's the use of yet another car...
Coz eternity my friend, is a long *ing time.
I thought labor law was a state-by-state issue. TYhe connection between labor & production to Interstate Commerce is tenuous in the extreme.
As for paid vs indirectly compensated overtime, for me the issue is easy: if the work is time-based (work this shift) OT should be paid for all salary levels. if the work is task-based (finish this project) it might not be.
Unpaid OT implies unpunished undertime! If you cannot take an afternoon off, you really should not be working unpaid OT. If you are, you are taking a cut in pay and rewarding bad behaviour (mgmt pushing).
This is the kind of un-mowed lawn one gets when business becomes a part of the government. All the benefits, and none of the accountability. Businesses are run by people, businesses are not people. I'd like to see BP arraigned for the murder of the 11 workers that died when it said, "do it, we're in charge here." Murdering 11 people in the U.S. is considered a Serial Killer scenario.
So you don't know what "professional capacity" means then. There's no need to advertise your ignorance and then just make stuff up.
Hint: your quote even references where that very specific term is defined, but of course you didn't bother looking it up.
simply regulated the work environment to where the employers are practically given reason to make an unbearable situation, next roll in the unions to protect the abused workers, mandatory union contributions feed back to DNC coffers (my friend pays over 1k a year in dues I think)
So win win for them
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
It's more of a clarification, not a drastic change. For example, the $27.63 is already in current law! Things like "similarly skilled worker" are just spelled out with more examples.
Current law (as of Jan. 7, 2011), from http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode29/usc_sec_29_00000213----000-.html
(17) any employee who is a computer systems analyst, computer programmer, software engineer, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is—
(A) the application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software, or system functional specifications;
(B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications;
(C) the design, documentation, testing, creation, or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems; or
(D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C) the performance of which requires the same level of skills, and
who, in the case of an employee who is compensated on an hourly basis, is compensated at a rate of not less than $27.63 an hour.
That really isn't very different from the Proposed bill, from story:
(17) any employee working in a computer or information technology occupation (including, but not limited to, work related to computers, information systems, components, networks, software, hardware, databases, security, internet, intranet, or websites) as an analyst, programmer, engineer, designer, developer, administrator, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is--
(A) the application of systems, network or database analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine or modify hardware, software, network, database, or system functional specifications;
(B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, securing, configuration, integration, debugging, modification of computer or information technology, or enabling continuity of systems and applications;
(C) directing the work of individuals performing duties described in subparagraph (A) or (B), including training such individuals or leading teams performing such duties; or
(D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C), the performance of which requires the same level of skill;
who is compensated at an hourly rate of not less than $27.63 an hour or who is paid on a salary basis at a salary level as set forth by the Department of Labor in part 541 of title 29, Code of Federal Regulations. An employee described in this paragraph shall be considered an employee in a professional capacity pursuant to paragraph (1).
No an american, so I am confused.
I thought the Republican doctrine was less government interference and all about letting the free market do things.
What is the party position for interfering in the labour market in this way? On what grounds is this within party policy?
It's safely invested in Greek, Italian and Spanish government bonds. They went with a conservative approach to investing.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
quit and be your own boss or become an independent farmer or an independent trader....
Read the full text of the Fair Labor Act if you want to get a sense of just how deep down the rabbit hole government regulations go. I'm sure we all rest easy at night knowing that people making sugar beet molasses do not get overtime pay.
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
That bill is already law, at least in my country. It is called the Twenty-seventh Amendment to the United States Constitution. Congress can't raise its own pay; it can raise only the next Congress's pay. If you disagree with a pay raise, plead the 27th and vote against the incumbent.
Pity most other countries in the world START at 25 payed days off. That is 5 weeks incase your over worked mind can no longer do math.
Most amazing myth I ever heard about the US is that of the "working poor". People who have a regular job or even two AND still can't keep themselves fed and housed. I am mean, how silly do you think we dutch people are? It is like plate sized hamburgers. Nice photoshop, no way that is real, no human beings could possible eat so much and no dressing up an elephant and putting it on a moped does not fool me.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
If outsourced labor can provide essentially the same productivity for a far lower cost, then what does that say about the value American labor provides? This is Ross Perot's "giant sucking sound": the jobs aren't go exactly where he thought it would, but that's a minor detail. The principles of his prediction were dead-on.
The numbers are simple: you can get basically the same quality and quantity of product (be that code, widgets, or most other things) from foreign labor, all for considerably less cost. This is why businesses outsource, and it's tough to even blame them: like anyone engaging in trade, even consumers, they're merely looking to get the best value for the money they spend. If you want to end outsourcing, then one way or another you have to change the numbers: lower foreign productivity, raise foreign costs, raise American productivity, or lower American costs.
Lowering foreign productivity would work if it were possible, but it depends entirely on factors over which no entity in the US has any real control, making any attempts to do so meaningless. So this is out.
Raising American productivity is slightly more practical, in that the factors involved are of the sort that the US actually has control over. The problem is that it takes sweeping cultural changes to do this, and that requires new generations. We don't have time for that; we need something that applies here and now. So this, too, is out.
That leaves cost-based approaches: either lower American costs or raise foreign costs. Raising foreign costs basically amounts to the imposition of import duties: tax the wazoo out of foreign imports (including code written for hire) until outsourcing costs more than hiring from within the US. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but no side of the aisle actually wants to do it right now, especially not with the countries that would most need to be targeted, because those countries have us over a barrel debt-wise.
That leaves only one option: lower the cost of American labor. As an IT worker myself, I'm no more a fan of this than anyone else on this site, but it is by far the most, if not the only, realistic solution.
I work IT in education. The general attitude at the institutions I've worked for has been that if you end up putting in extra time for some reason you can make it up by pulling half days or leaving early without taking vacation time. Education may not pay the best but the benefits sure are nice. On top of liberal policies, free tuition, and excellent health insurance, I also get 6 weeks vacation time, and 2 weeks sick time each year (and they roll over!).
This space for rent...
ago?
About 8 years ago, Congress decided that too many IT people were being classified as salaried and changed the FLSA definitions to strictly limit who could be salaried in the IT world and who couldn't. I had a couple friends who were working as PC repair bench technicians, making $27,000 per year, salaried, no overtime. When the law was changed, their employer was forced to convert them to hourly.
At the time, the thinking was the definitions were so strict that it would pretty much limit salaried, non-supervisory IT to those individuals who were so skilled that they base pay was in the six figure range.
This is obviously an attempt to find a middle ground between the two extremes.
Seriously,
How old are you? 67
McDonald's has to pay a full time worker $15,080
($7.25 min. wage * 40 hours * 52 weeks)
So I'd wager when you made $13K, you were either part time. Or this was a very long time ago. When you could buy a car for $6,000 instead of $20,000.
Pretty simply solution. Oh the stock exchange servers are down? Oh wait, I'm sorry you have reached your limit for my hours this week. Have fun trying to fix it yourself, and go back and read the memo's I sent saying that there was a hardware problem that I detected, but you didn't want to spend the money to replace the system, and told me to simply scrounge around for spare parts and work you magic.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
See Section 1706 of the 1986 Tax Reform Act. Another favor to IBM? Time for you yankees to get corporations out of your congress. Good thing I live in Canada!
AccountKiller
Congress needs to fix the budget, quit arguing over partisan politics and focus on bigger issues like the trade deficit manufacturing and china-russia etc stealing our secrets. Get back to work.
"We are just a war away from Amerikastan. When god vs god the undoing of man." Dave Mustaine
Brit here, wondering a) what's so special about IT workers that they need specific legislation banning overtime? b) why do you need legislation banning overtime?
Hang on, reading TFA and extracts of the Act, am I right in thinking this does not ban OT but rather include IT with exempt "professionals" from other general legislation that makes time-and-a-half OT rate mandatory? OK, now my question is why do you need any legislation specifying OT rates? Even here in the land of insane labour laws we don't have that, and in practice it is unusual for anyone making that kind of money to get any OT - or paid at all, even as time in lieu.
Bittersweet as it is, perhaps some congratulations may be in order? It seems IT is moving towards being recognised as "professional", which is nice. Continuing down that route won't lead to anything getting better though.
i don't really understand why the government wants to get involved in this kind of thing in a specific industry.
SURELY NOT!!!!!
The result is that you will get a crapload of work delayed to infinity, but that's the usual government status.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
'Nuff said.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
How about this; instead of attacking IT people who are routinely exempt from overtime to begin with and who routinely work 60+ hour weeks anyway, the following bill be introduced into Congress instead:
1) Congressional salaries shall be frozen at the current level until further notice.
2) As there is no review process to determine whether the American People are getting what they paid for out of Congress, the base congressional salary shall be multiplied by their approval rating by the American people as a percentage. If they have 100% approval, they shall be paid what they're paid now. If they have 50% approval, they shall be paid half what they're paid now. If they have 10% approval, they shall be paid 10% of what they're paid now.
That seems fair to me.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
So much for a congressional focus on improving the unemployment rate. This bill ostensibly encourages companies to exploit existing employees more before hiring new people.
Please remember that them tubes are serviced by IT professionals and if you fuck with their money you may not receive any more internets.
Sincerely,
The angry mob of nerds outside your windows.
Personally I'd rather have my idiots at home glued to the TV than out doing idiotic things
What I want to know is what Hagan's real motivation is for this move. Whatever they SAY is their motivation is a flat-out lie. So let's think about what would happen if this passes. Given: You're an IT person and you can no longer be paid overtime. Can your employer force you to work past 40 hours? Technically, no, but you'd risk not getting raises or promotions if you punched out on the stroke of 5pm. Then again, your employer could do that whether or not they were paying you extra. Politicians, especially Democrats, rarely are looking out for employers interests. Couple that with hidden agendas and the goal might be to force *cough* excuse me *cough* encourage employers to higher more workers. After all, the work must be done by someone. The net effect if that happens will be more payroll taxes into government coffers and more health insurance dollars being paid into the pool plus the added political benefit of being able to say "Unemployment is dropping. I made that happen. Vote for me."
But beyond this, does the change say that you can't be paid anything past 40 hours or just that you can't be paid time-and-a-half?
If passed, this law could be challenged on constitutional grounds as a bill of attainder.
I realize it's entirely a selfish reason, but I'm on board with this. As a single father, my schedule is always difficult to work out. On the one hand, I will be there for my daughter's school and activities. On the other, I am male and thus employers see me as someone capable of putting in whatever hours they deem necessary. This would allow me to pack in the hours when I can, and take shorter days when I have to.
I realize this is very case specific, but god damn it's about time SOME laws work in my favor.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Make your voice heard: https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/112/s1747
Let's also eliminate it for police, firemen, government officials, and anyone else who does a crappy menial job that they should be dedicated to 24\7 regardless of their base salary. That's more than fair I think!
Dear Congressperson:
I oppose S. 1747: Computer Professionals Update Act because we IT professionals were overworked, understaffed and underfunded before the economy got bad and now you want to eliminate overtime pay for us? Yeah, that's a good way to promote job creation in a sector that requires highly skilled labor. This bill would have a crippling effect on our economy in two ways: short-term it would cause unrest among IT workers which could lead to walkouts by employees and considerable damage to the nation's productivity and critical infrastructure, long-term you would see the formation of a national or international union of IT workers that would work collectively to overturn these laws, while at the same time possibly pushing talented people away from the profession. This bill is a horrible idea and only further demonstrates the contempt of the ignorant for IT professionals that, for the last few decades, have bolstered the economy and continue to provide innovation and a world competitive edge to the United States.
If the majority of your working involves data on the computer and you make 50k a year then be very afraid.
I can further see them withholding health insurance later on. The truth is if your in IT then your a consultant/contractor period.
They really need to reform the contracting laws so that people have to keep log books for working hours and must charge the equivalent of overtime. Just changing the laws would be enough since after a person is let go from a steady gig they could easily sue for backpay, interest, and penalties. Furthermore consultants and self employed people need to be able to collect unemployment insurance.
With computers there are time stamps on everything we do and it's easy enough to show a virtual paper trail if you discipline yourself. Even better if you work with other IT people that similarly weren't compensated. All your have to do is show a record for no overtime paid and a jury will believe you.
Status: This bill is in the first step in the legislative process. Explanation: Introduced bills and resolutions first go to committees that deliberate, investigate, and revise them before they go to general debate. The majority of bills and resolutions never make it out of committee. [Last Updated: Dec 2, 2011 6:23AM]
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
The problem with picking a specific trade is that the majority won't care about it, so they can pass laws that only hurt small groups of people without taking a big reputation hit, thus transforming democracy into mob rule.
this does nothing for the interests of the people, this is corporate pandering, nothing more.
corporations != people
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Many IT works are ALREADY classified as Professional emps, by the existing 2004 definitions:
Current Law:
1) The application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software or system functional specifications;
2) The design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications;:
Proposed Law:
‘(A) the application of systems, network or database analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine or modify hardware, software, network, database, or system functional specifications;
‘(B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, securing, configuration, integration, debugging, modification of computer or information technology, or enabling continuity of systems and applications;
----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
I always wonder if the lawmakers first come up with a cool title and see what kind of law they can pass to screw things up.
This doesn't seem to affect me as a contractor. I still bill the hours I work. It does encourage me to never be a full time employee again, but I was kind of heading down that road anyway. Perhaps I'll finally incorporate. I can't get away with the tax avoidance Google does -- that only works if you're avoiding billions of dollars a year in taxes, not thousands. It still seems like it'd have a lot of benefits.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I propose we cut ALL their taxpayer paid benefits, retirement and make them pay for it themselves Wanna see how quickly the rest of us get better benefits and retirement packages. These lazy bums won't/can't do their job in Washington, yet they expect US to pay the bill for their perks.
Yet another case of the government getting involved in places it doesn't belong
No problem, just enforce 40 hour work weeks too.
Good luck with that strategy in IT...and your boss will say, "No problem. Go find a job somewhere where you can get that 40 hour week. We need a 'team player' in our organization." You get laid off or fired, and they hire a 20-something year old that needs a job to replace you.
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2555346&cid=38238582
At least, I think that's the "rationale" You are taking more than your fair share of available work. This should discourage such greed.
Pretending this is my office full of bitter coworkers..
You know what the job is, what the salary is and what the hours are. People of a given skill level will just demand higher pay based on projected loss of over time. That is how we function in development. 80K job in a low pressure, high benefits big corp = ok. 80K in a crazy startup environment = crap. Adjust down if living outside bay area and your living costs are lower.
10 years in IT (well, probably longer, but I stop counting at 10). Every decent and half-decent place I have worked, when working hourly, paid 1.5 - 2.0 times the normal rate for overtime.
Of course, those were the kinds of places where coming in to do work on a Saturday or holiday was something you would look forward to, for many reasons not limited to the overtime.
I am John Hurt.
Why does anything need to be done to accelerate this process?
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
I just checked, and Maine no longer shows such an exemption in title 26. But they adopted the same wage limit ($27.63) for some exemptions, I think.
I can't find any exemptions in Arizona. I wonder if these were ever widespread...
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Luckily, if they're just counting web bandwidth, we can just use other protocols, or tunnel through other protocols.
Duh! The Internet is not equivalent to the Web. Especially since BitTorrent takes up a large part of the bandwidth used these days. (And perhaps video/audio streaming protocols, but I'm not sure if those are primarily HTTP-based or using other protocols (RTSP, RTP, etc.) these days.)
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
Not in IT or software, ever. Not for doctors, lawyers, dentists, actual engineers, architects, plumbers, electricians, etc. You know why? Because they can compete against the big company in one form or another. The whole concept of unions in plumbers, electricians and similar trades is to actually keep competition down. Heaven forbid someone do plumbing who hasn't apprenticed (ie. slaved for) some master plumber. This is also why IT has fought unions. Unions/guilds/etc. are there publically "to increase quality of the trade", but really they are there to protect jobs even from people who want the job. However in a profession where you are mostly qualified by degree or open association (bars, license boards) to actually do work or things like technologies that move to quick (I have 10 years experience in HTML5, btw!.) prices will never deflate past upper middle income. H1B is the only thing bringing down IT salaries and that still isn't too significant thanks to foreign degree shops making most unhirable. Heck if you are skilled you will make six figures within a couple of years easily in any actual profession (unless you are H1B).
Now upper middle income can drop and have in proportion to inflation thanks to the fed and the fact few 'jobs' today can be considered skilled and no union can prevent that fact from effecting salaries to the point that they are just barely middle income now.
Not in the real world; in my experience, understaffed IT depts are abused with forced 24/7 on-call outside the job description or not they are not properly compensated upfront for officially being on call all the time. Not to mention all the crazy demands put upon them. Extra hours happen routinely because management figures the extra cost is less than another employee. It is not greedy employees, they are the victims; especially, when the economy is bad. When I did it, I never got overtime and they thought little of making me put in the "comp time" (later they tried to limit comp time because we'd build up months of payed vacation time! I should have sued them before I left because it had to be illegal since the contract specified it.)
Overtime pay should be so high that management hires additional staff; actually, if you are concerned about greedy workers then it should contain a large TAX so then neither side can abuse the situation. Business people seem to hate TAX more than they hate their workers.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
This is the single most important thing to understand about domestic politicy in the US: that in real terms, median wages have been almost perfectly static for forty years. I've seen the numbers cited in a number of places, such as this brilliant chart from Randall Munroe:
https://www.xkcd.com/980/huge/#x=-1910&y=-3118&z=5
With rising costs for housing, health care, and education, the standard of living for most people in the US has declined even as per capita productivity has more than doubled. We are creating more wealth, and enjoying less of it.
Part of what is remarkable about this is that the historical trend, until the early 1970s, was for wages to rise as productivity rises, and the upward trend for both was unbroken. A graph shows that increasing productivity has continued its upward curve, but real wages sharply leveled off in the early 1970s.
This proposed law is part of the ongoing effort to escalate the transfer of wealth and power from the poor to the rich.
I own a small IT outsourcing shop.
Work comes in a trickle or a deluge, no in-between.
There will be overtime hours worked, it is the nature the beast.
It is a competitive business, I cannot put in higher bids and expect to get any business.
Since each hour of US overtime would be a large loss to me, I just cannot afford to do it. I will not do it.
I was using two solutions to this:
1. US coders working on Salary + Bonus, where working more = more bonus.
2. Offshore coders on straight hourly wages.
The recession hit, and I could not afford the high base salaries for the US guys.
I laid off 8 US coders - after exhausting the business accounts and my personal savings.
I still have the offshore guys. They stuck with me even though their hours went in half.
Business has picked up, but I have not hired any more US coders.
I would love to hire more guys in the US.
However!
I have not managed to afford to get health insurance for my family yet - next year looks good for getting that going again.
Obamacare gives me nightmares: Absolute requirement to provide unaffordable care for US workers.
Mandatory overtime bonus pay = too risky to depend on US workers for projects with low profitablity - and this economy is only producing low profitability projects so far.
The answer to all these problems is to go make more money and not assume any more risk.
And that means not hiring any US coders, although I would really love to do that.
Well, this is basically the #2 punch in the set. Years back....IT guys could easily be classified at non-exempt, and paid hourly....and get 1.5 time for OT.
The Feds didn't like this...specifically for their contractors...the guys just plain worked too much.
So, IT guys were reclassified as 'professionals' just like doctors, lawyers, managers..etc.
However, still...on contracts...you CAN get straight time for OT hours. There are usually hoops to jump through to get all this approved by the gov. in advance of work...PITA.
I guess they're wanting to close this one off too.
I haven't understood why they do it for private sector and for gov contracting....maybe they have to do it for everyone and can't target just the federal contractors.
It doesn't seem fair, like you said...that they can target one class of worker, but this isn't the first time it has happened.
One thing they may be looking at...as we continue forward, with more and more tech taking over in ALL business....most everything is related to IT in some fashion...and they are maybe trying in broad fashion to use this to cut costs.
Of course, let's target the guys who actually do work...rather than the management.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Congress shouldn't prohibit overtime pay private employers decide to pay.
But private employers shouldn't pay overtime except in rare crisis situations. They should hire more people to handle the extra work if they've got it regularly. Even if those extra people are part time. They choose overtime instead because they don't have to pay the overhead beyond direct pay of the extra worker, even though overtime costs more per hour. It doesn't take long for overtime, which is typically +50% (or +100%+ if past 10-12+ hours a day or on weekends/holidays), to cost more than the 10-25-50% typical overhead for the extra worker. Plus having more workers means more flexibility. Having that much extra work should mean the business is making more money.
The workers make the money for the business by doing the work, though they're brought the opportunity by the business (and the whole affair is due to paying customers). If you have enough work for more workers, you should get them and use them to get more work, which means more money for everyone.
--
make install -not war
Foreign workers unfairly compete with American workers by the foreign subsidies in the form of cheap polluted and overworked workplaces.
Though their socialized medicine and education should be competed with by having our own here, since that way is proven to make a more productive workforce at lower cost (including longerm, unlike from pollution and labor exploitation) than the privatized alternative we have here.
--
make install -not war
The local unions are always behind Kay which is why she keeps getting re-elected. Tech workers (especially ones in other states) don't have a union that contributes to her campaigns, so it's okay to **** them over. Here's hoping we can get her out of there next time!
If she were smarter (and more conniving), I'd suspect that this was a way into backdoor socialism. The front door would explicitly limit the work week to 40 hours (or less) as has been failing in other countries. And thus companies would be forced to hire more people. This way, a bunch of programmers might shrug and say, "Eh, 40 hours is good enough." But I don't think she's that clever.
/// Not a super-genius . . . yet. ///
You got it! Please post your contact info so we can get you started.
Homeland Security will be contacting you immediately with your startup kit.
--
make install -not war
It goes off-shore, because. .gov has made it easier from a tax basis.
I move business off-shore, move profits too. Then pay lower taxes in some 2nd world country.
Write it off as an expense in the U.S. taxes,and then pay no taxes (like GE)
I know you're joking, but winning a seat in Congress is like winning free tickets to an insider trading buffet. Also all the wonderful laws we have in the US thay prohibit insoder trading don't applt to those in Congress...
Google the book " Throw Them All Out" for more depressing details
Here's to the crazy ones
Since when do salaried workers get overtime? I haven't been paid overtime in over 10 years.
If this isn't proof enough to everyone that both Democrat and Republican parties are both completely beholden to the corporate master I don't know what is. There is no way in hell a member of the old (real) Democrat party of 60 years ago would have done this. The only remaining step for Democrats like these to become full-fledged corporate-whore Republicans will be to join in on union busting efforts.
I'm shocked that there are so many posts related to action that effect the pay for Congress. The $160K they get every year is nothing compared to the money they get from the businesses that present them with the ideas (and authorship) of bills like this. Look at who is contributing the most campaign donations to the sponsors of this bill and you'll probably find out who really wants this passed into law. n2ch
Across the board, when faced with relatively high unemployment and no strong indication of that correcting itself, the answer is *not* to make it easier for employers to stretch a workforce thinner, causing fewer people to work longer hours. If anything, should take action that encourages more workers employed with fewer hours. Create a tendency for more people to be employed and for the pay to be more evenly distributed...
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I build and install beautiful metal cabinets. As an added service, I also install equipment inside of them, configure and maintain said equipment.
But I am a metalworker.
Have gnu, will travel.
It makes you wonder how people so stupid can dupe enough voters to win election.
Overtime pay is also called time and a half. Basically it means if they want you to work more than your scheduled hours they have to pay more than they would normally pay. My understanding is that this would remove that requirement and make it so that they would just have to pay more at the hourly rate. I would be 50 hours standard pay instead of 40 standard and 10 overtime.
AJ Henderson
...What bothers me most about this is the hard-coded, arbitrary value. I don't exactly agree with the concept (I'm more of a free-market guy) but if you're gonna do it, at least base the dollar amount on some other value, like some fraction of GDP or per Capita income, or even a multiple of minimum wage. Having to reprocess the bill every 5-10 years due to inflation seems a lot like a recompile, and what's worse it may just not happen at all!
No overtime pay for people who tend to work A LOT of overtime will result in a lot of disgruntled tech-savvy employees with access to valuable and sensitive data and systems. What do you think the less scrupulous IT workers will do? I hope they like increases in cybercrime and identity theft because that is exactly what this will give us.
This woman can't possibly be in her right mind. Some angry employer probably approached her with this stupid idea... but I digress.
I've long been told that IT workers (at least, in the State of MA) are not allowed to form a Union. Really? I think it's time to change that...
Some of us may be well-paid, this is true, but we are often overlooked in terms of how much work goes in to what we do... and how important it ends up being at the end of the day.
You can always tell a bought and paid-for politician; they're completely out of phase with their parties' belief set.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
> It seems comprehensive in its description of what types of IT work qualify
Wonder which lobbyist firm helped them write it. Certainly wasn't done by "on-site experts".
Bark less. Wag more.
How do we get someone kicked out of the party? If this person is behaving like a republican, than isn't there a means or process to get her expelled from the democrat party?
Most Respectfully Yours Mark Allyn Bellingham, Washington
I experienced something similar here in Canada with a previous employer that decided one day to do the same along with not paying for pager duty. The day that it started I gathered my support team together and I explained that we would leave at 4:30 PM sharp regardless of the workload or crisis. The same day, I went to see my director and put the emergency pager on his desk (it was around 3 PM). I told him that if we were not going to be paid we would not answer it and wished him good luck as there were some upgrades scheduled that evening and we expected problems with them. The expression on his face was priceless but he sympathized with me as he did not agree himself with the corporate decision. He offered me time-in-lieu-of, which is basically the equivalent of time off for any overtime/after hours worked. I explained to him that it would have to apply for my whole team and it would be only short term as we worked to earn a salary, not to only to have time off, which of course would complicate work schedules even more. The sad thing is that I found out that my team was the only one to pull that off; everyone else bowed down and shut up right away, bringing morale to an all time low. I can tell you that attendance to that year’s social events (especially the Christmas party) was at an all time low. The only problem I see with this bill is that if anyone pulled off something similar as I did, there is a good chance of a desperado who will come in and do it for even less pay. Now is this the proper way to handle any infrastructure that business relies on? You get what you pay for, and if this bill makes it through it will cause a further decline of the American status which hasn’t looked too hot lately.
Is this just for those in government contracted positions? Otherwise what is the US gov't interfering in this for? Who is being protected by this legislation who actually needs protection? This is bizarre.
My guess is only a few IT systems in the world would last more than a week without love and attention from system administrators. The most likely result of legislation like this is IT unionization and strikes. See how much the 1% screams when their computerized trading floors stop working.
But if workers decide to go elsewhere, there will be pressure on companies to offer higher compensation. That's what overtime is essentially, extra pay for going above and beyond the normal job requirements. Normally these sorts of rules are there to protect the lowest paid workers who do not have a lot of workplace clout and that's not who is being targeted here.
Alberta and Ontario also have the same BS.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Or at least, I'm sure that's the theory. I think that governments/financial institutions (There's no difference now) are starting to fear the "million geek army." Engineering types typically don't take political control well, and have an annoying tendency to help the rebels (whoever the rebels might be). Impoverish IT engineeers and you make them more amenable to bribery and coercion.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
I currently work overtime without additional pay. As a result, the company is continually encouraged not to hire. This kind of BS is ruining the job market period. Why hire when you can work everyone to death?!
I hope this does pass, just so that when one of the people pushing it call the IT guy for a computer problem that could be critical to their job they can respond with: "Sorry, I've already worked all my hours, and you made overtime illegal. I'll be back in next week."
This doesn't remove the 80 hour weeks. It removes the extra pay for working those 80 hour weeks.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
You're misreading the bill. It does not say anything about not working overtime. It removes the requirement that you get paid more for working overtime.\
You'll still be working just as much, or possibly more, but you'll get less money for that time.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
I bet there are a lot of us not getting OT pay and maybe not giving 100% to our unloyal employers who would off-shore us if they could.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
It's their solution to the 'skills shortage'.
if you don't agree with not payed overtime, just don't do overtime. If it's not payed for, it can't be mandatory.
Maybe, but it's also not mandatory to keep you employed if you don't do the unpaid overtime. It's the business holding all the cards, setting them aside and deciding to just outright fuck you.
regardless of the hours they work over 40...
Only if we can limit the CEO's pay to under $10million.
Capitalism is great and would work best WITHOUT all kinds of government intervention. The pendulum can swing both ways until the "invisible hand" of the free market finds the perfect spot and the pendulum slows down. Watch "Free to Choose" with Milton Freidman which can be found in its entirety on YouTube.
In my opinion, most of the laws introduced to 'tweak' our economic system end up doing more harm than good.
Many of the lobbyists are paid by big business. They work to get laws passed to help out their employer. All of this is so expensive and complicated and such as waste of resources.
I do believe that some regulation is required to protect the employees. (Look at how employees were treated before OSHA or unions were formed) I do not see a good reason why IT workers should be any different than workers in other professions.
In Europe the work week is less than 40 hours on average and they tend to get more vacation. (Holiday that is)
I used to work very long hours as a salaried employee without thinking twice about it. I realized at some point that my time is worth something even if I would be relaxing instead of work working. You are at least partially responsible for managing your own work/life balance. Too many IT workers feel that they should work long hours even if it is not required by their employer. (I was not ‘required’ to work long hours; I did it because I felt responsible for the work)
All the laws on the planet cannot change your work environment as much as your attitude towards a work/life balance can.
Before you follow this article's lead and go off half-cocked thinking this bill eliminates overtime pay for IT workers, maybe you should go read the bill that was introduced _and the current text of the USC that it's modifying._
Here's the relevent text of the "CPU Act":
SEC. 2. AMENDMENT TO THE FAIR LABOR STANDARDS ACT OF 1938.
Section 13(a)(17) of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (29 U.S.C. 213(a)(17)) is amended to read as follows:
`(17) any employee working in a computer or information technology occupation (including, but not limited to, work related to computers, information systems, components, networks, software, hardware, databases, security, internet, intranet, or websites) as an analyst, programmer, engineer, designer, developer, administrator, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is--
`(A) the application of systems, network or database analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine or modify hardware, software, network, database, or system functional specifications;
`(B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, securing, configuration, integration, debugging, modification of computer or information technology, or enabling continuity of systems and applications;
`(C) directing the work of individuals performing duties described in subparagraph (A) or (B), including training such individuals or leading teams performing such duties; or
`(D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C), the performance of which requires the same level of skill;
who is compensated at an hourly rate of not less than $27.63 an hour or who is paid on a salary basis at a salary level as set forth by the Department of Labor in part 541 of title 29, Code of Federal Regulations. An employee described in this paragraph shall be considered an employee in a professional capacity pursuant to paragraph (1).'.
The current text of that section currently reads as follows (retrieved from http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode29/usc_sec_29_00000213----000-.html):
"(17) any employee who is a computer systems analyst, computer programmer, software engineer, or other similarly skilled worker, whose primary duty is—
(A) the application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software, or system functional specifications;
(B) the design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing, or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications;
(C) the design, documentation, testing, creation, or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems; or
(D) a combination of duties described in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C) the performance of which requires the same level of skills, and
who, in the case of an employee who is compensated on an hourly basis, is compensated at a rate of not less than $27.63 an hour. "
I am not a lawyer, but the change isn't to exempt IT workers from overtime. It's to refine the verbiage of who is classified as an exempt IT worker. It seems the terms make the specification more broad, but there is the addition of a minimum salary requirement which might free some employees from the exemption.
If overtime is banned for IT workers how about industry and all other kickbacks, "gifts" and pork-barrelling being banned for senators. If IT workers have to live on their basic salary why shouldn't senators have to live on their basic stipend?
Just in case you didn't notice, IT is an employment ghetto. All of the gains of the labor movement 40 hour work weeks, 5 day work weeks, overtime pay, vacation have disappeared in IT. IT is a cost center so nobody wants to dump money into it unless there is some crisis. Add in to that the fact that most organizations are solely focused on cost reductions, forcing IT to make unpopular changes to service levels and technology that generally leaves everyone pissed off.
The numbers are simple: you can get basically the same quality and quantity of product (be that code, widgets, or most other things) from foreign labor, all for considerably less cost.
If that was true, then I guess all the IT talent must be constantly migrating to countries that pay lower and lower wages? I doubt that. Outsourcing is only about profit. They don't care if the quality goes down, as long as they still make a profit.
This is why businesses outsource, and it's tough to even blame them: like anyone engaging in trade, even consumers, they're merely looking to get the best value for the money they spend.
It's easy to blame companies that have money to bribe congress to screw over the citizens they are supposed to be serving. It's easy to blame companies that pay the senior executives ridiculous salaries while they complain about how IT makes almost 1/20th of their salary. It's not like senior executives are 20 times smarter or twenty times stronger or faster. And they don't pass the savings to the customers! It goes into their fat pockets! It's too bad we can't outsource senior management.
That leaves only one option: lower the cost of American labor. As an IT worker myself, I'm no more a fan of this than anyone else on this site, but it is by far the most, if not the only, realistic solution.
IT worker in what country? Obviously not the United States. With the constant threats of lay-offs and outsourcing and the high cost of living, I have never heard of any IT working thinking that their pay needs to be lowered!
And often your only source of goods was an overpriced company-run store, where you accumulated debt that your meager salary was spent futily repaying.
Granted.
Everybody gets what the majority deserves.
I was under the impression that employee compensation was set by individual companies, and that the extent of government involvement was to set the minimum wage as a level below which you can't hire someone. Is there some special law in this state directing who is allowed to be offered OT and who isn't? (or conversely, who must be given OT pay?)
"Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
Wouldn't this apply to any non unionized worker?
( and a stupid idea too )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
That the government invented these things?
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Why are IT. computer workers singled out , period? I also agree that technical workers should unionize.
He who said 1,000,000 monkeys on 1,000,000 typewriters would eventually type the great novel, never saw an AOL chat room
We have no union to protect our interests at an organisational level, so our destinies will always be dictated by those that do.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
At my company, even the existing "non-overtime / exempt" allows the employer to put forth such abuse to IT employees that there were 4 recorded suicides out of the same building in a year. Oh... and that was when they treated their employees "better".
When you have a situation where an employer can ask for any number of hours as a condition of employment, it is ripe for abuse. It prolongs the buffer zone in which they can lay off IT workers, and pile the work on so 12-16 hour days are not uncommon. Meanwhile the folks left deal with the stress of the workload, no personal time for non work related responsibilities, and the constant nag in the back of their mind: "I'm I next to get the pink slip?" At a minimum, I know of several folks--including myself--developing stress related illness. Some of this is non-recoverable and will take years off your life.
My recommendation is to send the legislation straight to /dev/null, throw these buggers out at the next election, and push for actual improvements in working conditions. (Obviously things will have to be sequenced carefully to avoid an even stronger corporate rush to off-shore more IT work.)
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Change (n) - The actualization of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
What do you recommend to do to work toward voting out a representative in a safe seat district whose incumbent routinely landslides with 80 percent of the popular vote?
Guess how this is going to be spun? My guess is this:
"Those couch-potatoes who do nothing but type all day are overpaid. They're part of the problem! See, we ARE doing something!"
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
How about a bill to get Congress off their big fat asses to actually DO something useful for American PEOPLE for a change.
Overtime makes sense when you're working in https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_employee-owned_companies
Slashdot = Sarcasm
They are still screwed for the week or two that it will take the new hire to get up to speed on how that first single box is configured, what it connects to, what applications run on it, etc., let alone the other hundreds of systems which will take the better part of 6 months to 2 years to learn (even with people there to mentor), and a heck of a lot longer when all the IT guys have left. Being down for extended periods of time will cost a heck of a lot more than it would have to simply pay the people who keep the critical infrastructure that your company needs running appropriately.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
It appears I've got a better understanding of US politics than US residents :(
Unions don't have a thing to do with this.
I'm not in a Union, but I also don't suffer the delusion that the Unions are lurking in the shadows eating the puppies of children with cancer and hatching conspiracies.
Many see IT people as universal interchangable widgets so won't think that far ahead and would rather see the company lose a lot of money than call you back and admit they were wrong. Those that do think ahead probably wouldn't cut the overtime in the first place or would offer some other form of incentive to get people to work late if required (eg. time off).
You mean the incredibly insane idea that instead of doing something or not doing something you have the third choice of doing something so incredibly fucking badly that it's not worth doing at all?
Quite obviously there is no unemployment in the US. That is why we need to eliminate overtime. Actually it will be handled like the biannual psuedo time travel event because congress is involved. Before you leave clocks are turned back five hours.
Politicians not only want to macro-manage my life (money supply / interest rate), but also micro-manage it. Next they'll tell me I can't smoke pot...
Which company currently sets their IT wages at $27.63?
Because that magic number is awfully specific.
IT worker in what country? Obviously not the United States. With the constant threats of lay-offs and outsourcing and the high cost of living, I have never heard of any IT working thinking that their pay needs to be lowered!
No one wants their pay to be lowered. I don't either, and that's why I struggle with this: I'm not satisfied with any answer yet, but this is the closest, being the only one thus far that doesn't reduce to mere socioeconomic aesthetics or base eudaimonia.
Sometimes the goverment has too much control in private businesses. If they want to effectively control what the private businesses are doing... they should pass a bill that will decrease the number of jobs and products that are outsourced in other countries. That should help with the unemployment rate in American.