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Ask Slashdot: What's the Best Place To Relocate?
New submitter tsakas writes: "I am an IT researcher from southern Europe looking for a good place to relocate. Markets are pulling the teeth out of the strong European countries by destroying the south. The U.S. is in debt and there is no way of telling how long this can go on. China and India are on the rise. Brazil and Australia are looking good. The question: Which city would you choose to go and start a family if you were to stay there for a) 5, b) 10 and c) 20 years?"
Earth is screwed
Google Fiber
The US - still the best place to live and the whole "debt" issue is really not a huge deal.
Canada is the place to be IMHO. With the stable economy, the speedy rise of the IT sector and easy Permanent Residence options, it should be your best bet, both in the short and the long run.
Stay where you are. "I believe I have the nondisprovable ability to predict worldwide economic trends" is a terrible reason to move.
http://www.openmint.net/masdar-city-green-living-experiment Masdar is the worlds first attempt at a completely energy neutral city.
As a person who was born in one country, brought up in a second, did college in a third, married a woman in a fourth, and when back to live in the country I did college in, I do not belong anywhere. I would move to any country that provided me with an opportunity I was interested in. There are stupid immigration hurdles and such you have to deal with, and those are artificial constructs that we have created to slow the movement of people like me.
There is a saying in my parent's tongue. I am a pigeon, I fly wherever the seeds are. You should do that too.
China and India are on the rise. Brazil and Australia are looking good.
Can you speak the language? What are the immigration policies of these countries?
It depends on what you value. You're from "Southern Europe". That's semi-specific. What sort of place are you looking for? Good schools? What kind of community do you want? What kind of language skills do you have and/or are willing to acquire? What sort of culture are you looking for?
Plus, your economic analysis is overly simplistic:
The U.S. is in debt and there is no way of telling how long this can go on.
If the US experiences a major economic collapse, there is no place in the world where you won't feel the effects of that. Or at least, no place in the world where you can hold a job as an "IT researcher".
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
But you said raising a family.
This means "where would you go so your kids will have the best opportunities in their lifetimes."
Unless money to travel and attend college abroad is no object, this requires a much longer time horizon than 20 years.
Unfortunately, any reasonably precise prediction of where the world - or any part of it - will be politically and socially 20+ years from now has a high margin of uncertainty.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I don't think you actual understand the economic issue.
I suspect you don't understand the EU's issue on a big scale either.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I live in Mexico doing interactive systems. I like Brazil. Agree there is opportunity there for IT. If moving to another country Brazil will be my first choice.
It's expensive and time consuming with unpredictable returns.
I relocated from Calgary, Canada to Phoenix, Arizona about 5 years ago almost entirely for the AZ weather, which I love. I absolutely can't stand the backward politics and social attitudes here though. I too am looking for possible alternatives in the future. I would like to find somewhere with consistently warm weather, progressive social and political attitudes, and reasonable immigration policies for a Data Analyst with a Master's degree. Does such a place exist?
No matter where you look, each location will have its own fair share of problems. Rather then picking a location based on economics and political issues, pick a location where you will be happy.
Now obviously, being happy is contingent on being employed and being able to live where you choose, but I guarantee you one thing, following the money does not always work.
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
Twin Cities (Minneapolis & Saint Paul) Minnesota. Hands down. Big IT market that is growing, middle of the continent, near the Canadian border, more fresh water lakes than any other place on the planet. Very progressive populace with excellent education and employment opportunities. Only real problem is a terrible fucking transportation system but we are trying to fix that.
Please tell NO ONE. ;)
Ann Arbor, 'cause that's where Slashdot be.
org.slashdot.post.SignatureNotFoundException: ewg
Regardless of what order you list the cities and/or countries today, you would have a completely different list in 5, again in 10 and yet another in 20. I'd say your pick should be based on the culture you're most comfortable with.
Personally, I'd stay the heck away from India and China. I would leave if I were in either place. Both countries have serious infrastructure issues. And I would not want to live in a slave state ( China ), regardless if they seem to be opening up. That is only for the well connected. The working slobs have it worse than anywhere else in the wolrd. Hong Kong is an exception, but that is slowly fading.
Any inhabited continent has a future except Europe and Africa, and I'm not sure about Africa.
You must be new here, you forgot to diss America in your post.
I would say stay in a "first world" country to raise your children. Then travel the world from there. The other way around is impossible.
http://twitter.com/bash_history
Second for Austin, stay away from Houston unless you want to die young (cancer).
Economically, Texas has good employment, high pay, low cost of living, decent climate, etc.
Advice for anywhere you relocate: rent, for at least 3 years - it's much easier and cheaper to relocate again if you don't own real-estate.
Good weather. Anglophone. Fun people. Healthy culture. Melbourne was just voted the most livable city in the world again. Economy booming because of natural resources being mined out of the ground and sent to China. All you really need to adapt to is driving on the left.
I hear what others say about Scandinavia, and those countries truly have their shit together, but I'd find the long dark winters to be very depressing.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
One thing you have to keep in mind that China and India "on the rise" are still far worse off than US and Europe. There's no guarantee they'll be better in 20 years even if they sustain that rise, which they won't necessarily do - China in particular has a pretty nasty bubble ready to burst.
I'd stick to developed countries for the simple reason that you get some basic guarantees there that you don't in the third world should things go very wrong. For the same reasons I'd avoid US long-term - it's a good place to earn money during the productive period of your career, but not so good to retire in. If you're already in Europe, it's probably easier to go for one of the better developed countries there as they're more likely to weather the storms - Germany or France are two obvious destinations. Then there's Scandinavia - Finland looks surprisingly decent on many counts if you're willing to live with the weather.
If you are really bent on seeking something outside of Europe, consider Canada - a saner version of US on so many counts, especially economy wise. And you still have US nearby, which is convenient for shopping and some other things. Very easy to immigrate to, as well. Australia is also a very decent option, and if you're a believer in China long-term, you should consider them for the simple reason that it's in the same region and China is their major trade partner.
You listed very real problems with the economy in Europe and the US. China, India, and Brazil have real growing pains. It seems that wherever PEOPLE live, there are problems! So the thing to do is go live on the moon! No crime, no national debt, no housing crisis, no politics, no protests. Sounds ideal to me!
...has actual real-world value but if you have bona fide IT infrastructure and/or development skills, the San Francisco Bay Area is probably the hottest IT job market in the US right and possibly the world. The economy is in the tank in the rest of the country but the Bay Area is doing pretty well and the VC investment market here is still hot with a lot of "sugar water" investments still going on robustly.
That said, the Bay Area is generally really, really expensive, especially in San Francisco so there will be considerable sticker-shock for rents. If you're single and can live with 2-3+ more people, you could save quite a bit though and you could ride mass transit which is quite good in the Bay (not as good as NYC and Chicago but compared to the rest of California it's very good). Lower Peninsula and South Bay/Silicon Valley is also expensive but not quite as bad as SF.
Other than that Seattle, NYC (more expensive - WAY more expensive than anywhere in the world, save perhaps London, Paris metro areas), Chicago, Dallas, Austin, Washington DC... all are decent job markets for IT.
Also not sure how hard it is to get visa sponsorship. Probably not so easy. Glad I'm a citizen and already live in the Bay Area.
It'll just go through a period of inflation, which will devalue the dollar and those who bought bonds in the US will be screwed.
It's knowing how the game is played.
Move to California, it's still a cool place and a lot is still being done here.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
What's the Best Place To Relocate?
That's a tough question. Most areas are heavily acclimated to their current location. Anything non-trivial would have to swapped with something else, rather than simply relocated. Swapping even geographic close regions like North and South Dakota could have drastic unforeseen consequences; certainly swapping larger areas like France and Spain are right out. Perhaps a building or ballpark would be a good candidate for relocation, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort.
Any ideas /. ?
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
why are you relocating? if you fear for the wellbeing of your family you should know the health insurance for american workers is generally inferior to that of many european nations especially when considering their family coverage. The public education is routinely inferior as well, and 40 hours per week for tech workers is conservative in many cases. You arent going to see much more than 1-2 weeks of vacation in the first year in the states, and several of the southern states are sadly virulently xenophobic.
can you clarify on what you mean by markets pulling the teeth out of strong european countries? You make it seem like you've simply become jaded by a spate of recent financial reforms. Strong Europeans are the backbone of strong European countries, so if you and others leave it simply leaves more room to turn the EU into a libertarian dystopia.
Good people go to bed earlier.
I would choose somewhere with some combination of relative prosperity, underpopulation, and social democratic values: Scandinavia, Canada, New Zealand.
Developing countries, and to some extent the US, are like the Wild West - they're fantastic as long as you're wealthy to buy your way out of the inherent instability.
Singapore. I worked there for two weeks at the Marina Bay Sands project. English is the primary language, the area is beautiful and clean. Hated coming home. I'd still move my wife and kids there in a second.
The question: Which city would you choose to go and start a family
Not a damn one of them; Green Acres is the place for me.
IMO, living in close proximity to thousands (even hundreds, really) of other humans is not a desirable situation to be in, and a disaster waiting to happen.
Then again, I'm a born-and-bred 'country boy,' so of course YMMV.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
here's how I would do it: first 5 years in US, which probably won't collapse before then, and if it gets close, we'll just hornswoggle the Chinese into buying a bunch of movie studios like we did with the Japanese. Next 10 years in China. Make sure you pick up Mandarin. Parlay your ability to quote verbatim the scripts of popular 80's action movies into a career as executive of a floundering movie studio. Walk out of the office one day saying "I'll be back." Never go back. Next 20 years in Brazil, where you'll leverage your Chinese connections to become a major wheeler dealer in a revival of the opium trade. The most important thing is to leave no trace as you proceed. You don't want families 1.0 or 2.0 paying you and Conchita an unexpected visit in your Sau Paulo hacienda.
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
The economy here isn't bad at all and it's quite peaceful, even in the capital Stockholm. :)
Sweden's definitely a great place to start a family as the society do a lot for the parents (compared to many countries).
I moved there a year ago and I have no regret at all
Oh, and Swedish isn't that difficult to learn at all, you'll be just fine speaking English until you learn it!
Bonus: if you haven't found a spouse yet, I can say that there are some really beautiful girls here too ;)
As an IT researcher, one would think living where ever you want, working from home, and telecommuting would be the ideal for family life. Let me put it another way. There is a telecommuting homomorphism between the set of the best places to live and the set of best place to live for an IT researcher.
Sounds like you are basing your decisions on a glance at the financial section of a magazine rack...
"Trouble in Europe"? Oh no! Better get out of here!
"Trouble in The US"! Oh no! Better not move there!
"Indonesia at a crossroads" Hmm, sounds promising!
Try opening the thing up next time and actually read what's going on. Then take the "am I ready to live in am emerging market?" quiz:
Do you like to have to bribe your way around the local bureaucracy?
Do you like to live within a mile of crushing poverty?
Do you like to endure social, natural, and economic crises?
If you answered yes to all of these, then yes an emerging market is for you (i.e. Brazil, China, India, etc). If you answered no to any of them, stay in a Western country. Keep your skills current and if the place goes downhill, just relocate again. Hell, you did it once, right?
I just move to wherever Slashdot puts inside of the string "Is"..."the next Silicon Valley?" I have a script set up to buy airline tickets and everything. Don't miss out!
Texas has... decent climate
East Texas is hot and humid, central is hot and arid, West is hot and desert. A central Texas summer weather forecast is typically "very hot with chance of scattered wild fires". I personally like Austin, but know many who have moved here and are disappointed. Know before you go.
Relevant article: http://www.invest.vic.gov.au/20120814-melbourne-named-most-liveable-city-in-the-world-again
you will find a good mix of conservative government and libertarian social values.
Yep, it's a great mix as long as you aren't gay, a minority or poor.
We are not. No education to speak of, a government which is making the same mistakes which resulted in the European crisis, lots of crime and violence. Also we are more and more becoming an exporter of commodities, because our tax system is totally regressive and cumulative, working against manufacturing and services by making everything very, very expensive — and we have lower salaries than those of the First World.
I lived in Europe. Only reason I did not stay was that I was not allowed to.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
The way I'd like to do it is alternate between the summer in Norway and the summer in Chile. I love mountains and seaside.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Living in a foreign place can be pretty lonely. It's no surprise that people are of the opinion that their own country is one of the best places to live. It's not a uniquely American phenomena. The handful of Frenchmen I know hold the same view of their homeland (save one, who actually like the US better than France).
I think it takes a certain personality to enjoy travel and new places. Some of us are homebodies, and I think it is unreasonable to view us as backwards or ignorant of the world.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
for a), b), and c).
The only mark against it is the lack of individual freedoms, but if southern europe is fine then you won't mind them (and they in the scheme of things the US actively removing the alternative option anyway).
I moved to the San Francisco bay area last year and I'm loving it. Things to add to what AC said:
* Good weather.
* There is something here for everyone. If you like quiet, you can live in the suburbs. If you like more lively, you can live in one of the cities. You can go surfing and skiing on the same day.
* Yes, house and groceries are expensive. On the bright side, if you work for any of the tech companies, you will easily be able to afford things.
* Regarding visas: If you get a job with one of the larger tech companies, they will sponsor your visa. It may take a while before visas become available, though, as there is a quota.
* Companies here are definitely looking for more good people to hire, so if you have the skills they need, your chances of getting here are pretty good.
I don't know about the other places that have been mentioned, so I'll save the commenting on those to people who actually live there.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
I hail from Australia, and always felt that I was in a very small country with limited opportunities, despite everything going for it. Probably a fantastic country to raise kids or retire, but the economy isn't as big, and there aren't as many opportunities as, say, the US or UK.
I wanted out, because I wanted to swim in a bigger pond. It was a tossup between the US and the UK, and because I had an easy visa (something you might like to consider), I just went to London. The UK has big social problems (even more than the US, it has a huge, feral, festering underclass, and I get the impression that the UK is a *BAD* place to be down on your luck), but if you're good at what you do, you can probably afford to live in a good areas and send your kids to decent schools and generally stay away from all the shit. London is a huge, bustling, dynamic place that's fairly close by, and there's something here for just about everyone (unless you're poor, of course).
You're southern European, as you say, so don't forget that you have EU treaty rights. There are plenty of options for relocation within Europe.
That said, you wouldn't want to retire here. I certainly don't plan on sticking around past retirement.
Calgary, Alberta - Just located the world's greatest source of hydrocarbons near here on top of the second largest heavy oil deposits in the world. Coupled with great opportunity for growth in both tourism and agriculture. This city is one of the safest bets. Not too far from Vancouver and the sea as well. Perth Australia - Australia hasn't had a recession in 50 years. Perth is isolated both geographically and politically from most of the destructive currents on our planet, has significant energy deposits in the are, so it's probably a pretty safe bet. Good climate too. If global civilization collapses this is a possible re-seed point of civilization. North Dakota. - Low unemployment, booming economy. Pittsburgh PA - Low unemployment, booming (relatively to res of US) economy, massive sources of clean water, cheap place to live. Russian border regions around china - Probably a good area to locate economically. May have to worry about wars caused by demographics. Halifax Nova Scotia - Stable climate, place is isolated, local stocks of food.
1st of all: If I would want to start a family I wouldn't plan to go anywhere for less than 20 years. Times are unruly enough as it is. With children you want a good school, a good community and - most important of all - a good wife and her our yours or both families near by. Everything else comes second!
If you want to start a family you should even consider a career change if that is required to provide for the other things mentioned above. The family will be your primary fullfillment, not the job, so you might as well work as a bricklayer, provided the income is enough. Also factor in: Free housing or easy real estate from your family or in-laws, quality of life, happiness of wife (where does she want to live and raise children) etc. All of these are *way* more important than monetary income. Especially in times like these.
If I'd start a family again, I'd move together with my girlfriend in the town she lives, simply because her career is way more solid than mine right now. And I wouldn't care if I were the main caregiver to children and would be driving a dump-truck on the side. Be prepared to do that aswell if your future wife turns out to be the vice-exec of some uprising company or having and wanting to keep a more stable career than you aparently have right now.
2.) If you want to earn money in IT and are prepared to leave everything behind, you do the full monty and should get prepared to move anywhere within a few weeks notice, at any time and occasion. Singapur, Silicon Valley, Moskow, Dubai perhaps and maybe some high-polpulation areas in china are where the partys at right now. Live out of the suitcase or in microapparments for the next 15 years, rake in some stable cash or real estate and buy/build a home for your old age.
3.) If you aren't prepared to go full-on cyberpunk and move around the globe for the rest of your working career you should stay put right where you are and adapt. If the Euro goes belly-up and the world finally notices that the US dollar isn't worth the paper its printed on then you'll be glad if you've got some contacts to a local farmer and some real-estate and a small shed on it somewhere in southern europe. And maybe some solar panels to power your computers. I'd be happy if I had that. I'm living in a single room sharing flat with 6 people in Germany and right now things aren't looking up, even for an expert like me. Living expenses are through the roof, the IT staff shortage is nothing but a legend to keep wages at the 2002 minimum and inflation is ramping up allready.
Bottom line: Move for the family you want to start, and *only* for that, go fully international and prepare to relocate to Timbuktu if the money and/or the benefits package is right or stay put, get by somehow and prepare for some elongated worldwide economic downtime.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
No, don't go to Austin, our traffic sucks enough already.
The public transportation is pitiful if you work anywhere besides downtown or a college community. It is often just as fast to walk somewhere as it is to ride the bus, and riding a bike is a lot faster than the buses. Lived without a car in Austin for a year, so this is personal experience, not hyperbole.
We also have very expensive rents and apartment occupancy rate is 95%. It is currently cheaper to buy a house in Austin than it is to rent an apartment in Austin.
I'm sure I can come up with more reasons not to move to Austin.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Well, there isn't a perfect answer, because as others have mentioned the list would be another one in five years, or in ten, and so on. Basically if you live in southern europe, you have a lot of "up" to go to, thinking about places that are better choices financially, politically, to raise families in or just to have a tech career in. You should consider the next thing: how hard is it going to be to emigrate?
If you are within the EU, you can pack your bags and drive to another EU country, get a place to live, and you basically only have to sign some papers within three months and get a job. That's it. The simplicity of this process compared to having to get a job in advance, apply for residency and work permits with the help of your employer, and all that shite that you'd have to do in most other places makes it a huge advantage. So the question then becomes, what's the most stable economy in EU? Well, none of them, because they're all in the EU.
I'm from Sweden myself, and I'm considering moving elsewhere in the EU later, for other reasons, so I have other concerns... however for you, I'd recommend scandinavia. Specifically because if you move to Sweden for instance, and then live here for a while, getting a swedish citizenship... then you can move to Norway afterwards through the agreements that the scandinavian countries has with each other. Norway has their own oil money, good stable finances, beautiful nature, and all that, and are not in the EU. If your worst worry is financial collapse, then that's probably a decent place to be. You might be able to move there directly of course, but not as easily.
I suppose you could also move to the border of Sweden and work in Norway - a lot of people around here do that. Better pay, lower living costs.
But there's no magic bullet... you're going to have to weigh the pros and cons here. For all you know in 20 years the place you live might be the financial hub of europe.
source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9475307/London-slips-down-list-of-best-cities-despite-glorious-Olympics.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_most_livable_cities
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Speaking for my church.
We don't have the recession, we don't have the climate problem, we don't have gun, neither any strong social/cultural problem.
We do have a strong IT/software development infrastructure from aerospace to game field or financial institution.
We are a multilingual and multicultural city, you can find food and language from anywhere around the globe here.
We do have apartment or house that doesn't ask you a arm.
We do have nice commuting infrastructure, the metro (subway) are underground, some apartment building and office building have direct access to the metro... so you don't have to but your nose outside during the cold day of the winter or the hot day of the summer.
We have a unique family policy that put the children as a societal value (6-8 month of parental care for a new birth, cheap children gardening, real restaurant with children place...)
In the city of Montreal, you will find a lot of natural park and children park.
Park are big enough to do mountain bike, skying, and so on....
Lot of Europeans people work in the IT field in Montreal, you will not look that strange...
It's easy to have the canadien residence for a european
If you have a diploma from a know european university, you will have a job faster than the canadian residence.
Ceci n'est pas une Signature !
I'm Brazilian and I started working from home recently. Since my wife and I don't like they city we're currently living in, we decided to do some research and find a city where we would like to move to (still inside Brazil). If you can read portuguese, you might find our announcement and the criteria we've used useful: https://plus.google.com/112051803418632798341/posts/BTDpsC9Enta
I have plenty of friends who moved from Europe to Brazil. If you're single, you'll probably enjoy it for quite some time, and you'll probably have fun no matter which part of the country you move to. If you have wife and/or kids, you should be extra extra careful when selecting a city or region to move to. Brazil is huge and the difference in quality of living vary a lot between the different regions. And pay attention: the poorest areas usually have the best offers in the tech field (mostly due to tax incentivies for the tech companies).
Good luck.
Speaking as a naturalized American who spent 20 years living abroad, mostly in western Europe, there is nothing better than traveling abroad to convince even the most anti-American American (yes there are many, mostly of the 'grass is always greener on the other side' type) just how great the USA really is.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
Well I'm from Canada, been to the UK and Italy as well as Switzerland and Holland, also been on missions to Kenya and Haiti, i can safely say that the U.S by far is the best place to be (even if they are printing money). Will that do for non-biased or will only the answer you want to hear be sufficient for you?
Estonia?
Climate is obviously a disadvantage (in winter) but it is very IT orientated and on its way up. No problems with immigration authorities. The cost of living is not *that* high but wages are not that high either - unless you work for Skype.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
The most important part to start a family is the one you start it with. The values of a family are the family, not the size of the house.
See that you have a job that allows you to be with them instead of working all the time.
Wherever you go, there will be upsides and downsides. When you just arrive, all will be great, until you start to miss small things, like food. Also: have an open mind and try not to compare how things are done differently then what you are used to.
And once you have a family, don't move again after they are 12. That is when they will start their own youth and memories. It is not nice moving away at hat age from the comfort of their world.
I know people from all over the world. My family lived all over the world and only after a lifetime can you say if you lived a good life.
If you need a change for yourself, moving inside your country might be refreshing enough to give yourself the boost you need.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
It's hard to convince people not to borrow when the ECB keeps interest rates artificially low for years.
The real problem is the Euro, and once that collapses inflation and devaluation of the new currencies will wipe out the debts.
The better question is where can I relocate and survive outsourcing? Outsourcing is the number one threat to job stability no matter what country you are in. When I was younger I thought it was a problem with job being outsourced from more expensive northern states to cheaper southern states - it was. As I grew older I learned that was just the tip of the iceberg and that outsourcing meant you were competing against people all over the world. Outsourcing means that your job can be sent all over the world.
It doesn't matter where you go, you will face the same problems. Not only that you will also face all of the challenges of being an immigrant. Over the years I have talked with IT people from places like India and even there they outsource their jobs to other firms.
The bottom line is that you have to find a job that is difficult to outsource. There are ways to do this, for example find a job that can't be outsourced out of the country for national security reasons. Find a job that involves working directly with people and requires face to face interaction as a consultant. Find a job that requires your presence and not your skills.
You can be replaced, and companies will spend a fortune to do do it because in the long run they /perceive/ that they will save an even larger fortune by doing so.
I'm sure I can come up with more reasons not to move to Austin.
The obnoxious, poser hipsters would be another one.
The US is still a great place to live, but assuming you are part of the new trend of US haters, I would recommend you look at the following places:
1) Vancouver, Canada
2) Japan (one of the non-irradiated sections)
3) Norway
4) New Zealand
5) Switzerland
But those would be my preferences, yours may differ.
I think I've read stories about people from just about anywhere feeling the need to move in order to escape bad economic conditions. You hear a lot about people bringing up Australia or Germany. I don't see any long-term scenario in which other countries of the world are flailing but Germany and Australia are thriving. Economies are too interdependent these days.
One should choose a city where they have the strongest base of support from family and friends. If thinks get worse, you will need to rely on those people.
It is in Europe but not in the EU. ;-)
2.8% unemployment rate! Highest salaries in the world. Health insurance, pension it is all there! US people would call it a communistic country though
And it is a nice and very safe place to live (except if your name is Polanski...).
The US might have a decently high unemployment rate right now, but in IT it's quite low. IT jobs are expanding very rapidly here, and I don't think that outsourcing has put a dent in it. In particular, Seattle and San Francisco are great places to be, with oodles of jobs, high quality of life, lots of diversity, and a very educated populace.
Please explain exactly why Europe has a worse future than, say, South America. It has serious problems, but it also has a highly educated population, an industrialized economy, relatively stable political systems (prime ministers come and go, but governments aren't getting overthrown by force like they would in many other places), long life expectancy, and quite a lot of wealth.
Also, I highly suspect you've never been there. If you had, you'd be pretty much crazy to prefer living in, say, the Congo.
I am officially gone from
All the houses are crap and Mike Holmes is going a round fixing them ONE AT A TIME!!!
The deficit, as bad as it is, is not even close to reaching Armageddon proportions. Viewed as a percentage of GDP, our debt isn't even that high. The deficit itself is less of a problem than the inability of anybody to confront the problem honestly. And yes, I include Paul Ryan, who refuses to look at our biggest black hole for fiscal waste, the military. Jeez, even if you're a hawk, doesn't it bother you that we spend more on defense than the rest of the planet combined?
But even if I'm wrong, and the U.S. is on the verge of economic collapse, consider this: if we go down, we're certainly taking everybody with us. We're still the center of the world economy, and everybody trades with us. If the U.S. market disappeared, there'd be a global crash that would make 1929 look like a hiccup
So if you're worried about the imminent collapse of the U.S. economy, I'd suggest going to a remote location and learning to survive as a subsistence farmer. And if you're not willing to go that drastic, you might as well not worry about it.
You can't say anything that makes sense on this cult like site. Everyone here hates American and freedom, they want to be under the boot of mommy.
I live in Canada and like it a lot. My family emigrated here from South Africa when I was 11, and Canada has been very good to me. It's sort of like the USA, only with slightly less polarized politics and slightly more sane social policies.
I live in Ottawa and it does get rather cold in the winter. But hey, global warming's fixing that... the last few winters have been mild. :)
1.) very reasonable priced health care ! (contributions will be transfered by your employer to the insurance company from your salary)
- the health care insurance company is not allowed to pick, they have to take anybody
2.) good job market
3.) reasonable priced rent
4.) you can mostly get along with speaking english,
but learning german is not that hard,
Example: that iranian young women whose face pic was taken from facebook by western media due to a name glitch, she was prosecuted by the mullahs,
got asylum here and after only one and a half year she is fluent and speaks execelent, she was on radio last week.
If you want to learn german the national public radio (not npr) has a livestream,
http://www.dradio.de/
you can also find places on the internet where you can watch our exported tv series ("Der Tatort" which translates as "The Crime Scene" or "Derrek" these got even dubbed with japanese language for Japan of course!!)
5.) state forced sponsored pension (will be transfered by your employer as part of your salary) after your 67 birth day these insurance benefits will be paid
6.) disabled persons & families are last to be fired (workers rights)
7.) strong unions
8.) from north to south, funny speaking people
9.) reasonable wages
When you negotiate your salary keep taxes and other things in mind (~%43 will be subtracted from your salary) so just add it beforehand !
10.) IT, Tech & Engineering Jobs
I love my country so I'd like to present my country to people in this world, european, african, asian, indian.
Think of finding a job ?
-> Try Germany!
If by "Europe" is doing badly you must surely mean the Eurozone. Unemployment in Norway/Sweden/even formerly bankrupt Iceland is very good. If you're having kids, the 2 months mandatory paternity leave in Sweden would be nice. You'd get to spend time with your kids and not have to work all the time and it allows your spouse to keep a career too. The governments themselves are very stable with the lowest levels of corruption in the world (if only Greece could say the same!), allowing the high tax rate to give you a decent rate of return on services you receive.
In short, it's the southern European welfare state on steroids but done responsibly.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
I'd work on the presumption that the worldwide economy is going to fail and there are going to be some very unpleasant times ahead. It's actually fairly unlikely in my (guesswork) opinion, but given the stakes a variation on Pascal's Wager is a reasonable approach.
Forget cities. You've got a job you can do remotely to a large extent, so use the opportunity to get out of cities, the most dangerous place in a collapse is places with lots of people who are 99% reliant on "the system".
Find a farm somewhere growing a staple crop, wheat, rice, corn or whatever. You don't need to live on the farm, just nearby, because what you're looking for is land that will provide you with plenty of calories for a minimum of effort if you need it. You don't have to start being self-sufficient, just have a garden and grow some fresh veg to get the hang of it (it's fun too).
The real bonus is bringing the kids up. They'll get plenty of fresh air and exercise in an area that's very safe. Schools in rural areas are generally very good too, and commuting isn't a big deal if you need to, just find somewhere close to a rail station.
Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
Before you decide, be sure to watch "Portlandia", a recent TV Series (on a torrent near you). It's a documentary about how much fun it is to live in Portland. (Heh heh). Where else can you see stuff like this on a daily basis? :D
Daniel
and there is no where to run.
Historically you could run off to far undiscovered lands and start over.
Now, there isn't a place you can go where a crooked banker or politician has their teeth sunk deep in.
A new dark age is setting in, and with it will come massive wars of opression, and billions will die.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
Chile is awesome. Super stable economy, not just during the crisis. Very family friendly. Real estate is cheap compared to, e.g., Argentina. Not sure if an IT researcher could do exceptionally well there. There's no one industry that is killer (except maybe mining), it's just a really well rounded economy. It's also kind of boring, the way Colorado would be boring in the 1950s. That's either a good thing or bad thing, depending on what you're looking for. But that's also why it's not on anybody's radar. (Note, conservatives love to talk about their free market pension plan, but everybody hates it there. The newspapers regularly complain about the 20-30% vig the banks take, so don't move there because Paul Ryan likes it. You'll just be disappointed.)
If you want to move to Brazil, I'd suggest Curitiba. Built predominantly by emigres from Europe and Japan, it doesn't have a lot of the crime and crazy politics of the larger, older cities further north which struggle with more inequality. It's also a global poster child for sustainable urban development practices, not just because of any single media-hyped development, but because of 30 years of sane planning.
Jeez, go wherever you want. Move to Cuba, they have 100% free health insurance there.
Actually... an interesting idea. Not that "IT researcher" would be in high demand there, but otherwise... why not?
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
... and try to improve life where you are.
Giorgo, is that you?
On a more serious tone, and as others pointed out above, you should have provided us with more clues. Relocating is an issue with lots of variables that vary strongly in each case. Having said that, all tips that one can give you can only be vague/anecdotal at best. Here are mine:
1. I am Greek working in Germany for 7 years now. Whether you can feel safe economically here strongly depends on who you work for. I work for a large chemical company (>15.000 employes worldwide) and can't complain. However, we now hire only if we explicitly need to fill a vacant place.
2. My Greek family and friends from my school/university years are all over the globe: Germany, Canada, Australia, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Brazil, UK. Those that are still in Greece plan to go away. However, this should come as no surprise. Greeks always had the tendency to migrate (also for no apparent reason) and this can only be enhanced by an economic crisis.
3. Strangely, some friends that were in USA came back (before the crisis broke out). Personal reasons also came into play, but it seemed that the conditions in the USA were not overwhelmingly good so as to encourage their stay.
4. In Australia you first need to get a well paying job in order to qualify for a visa. You can't go there looking for a job as many would imagine. This is likely to be valid for other countries as well.
My 2 cents.
1: Most Canadian cities. Canada does not have the economic ups and downs that other countries have, crime is low (you don't need multiple firearms on you just to go get six-pack of beer),
Ummm... you mean you still need one? Isn't the prohibition over yet?
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
The weather is nearly perfect after 12 noon. Until then you have a haze/fog. Anyone that doesn't know San Diego's weather would wake up every morning and says "Not another crappy day!".
All said though, San Diego is a very nice place to live.
China is screwed. Horribly screwed. You do NOT want to be there when the hammer falls. Perhaps Hong Kong would be OK, it might escape the worst of the problems... if they let you live there...
India is probably better off, but coming from Europe are you seriously ready for the massive culture and lifestyle shock? It just strikes me as one of those societies that it's really hard to get along in if you have not grown up there. This is based on friends from india that go back from time to time, telling me what it is like to live there.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
For the most part as long as you don't go to hipsterish places you don't run into too many hipsters.
Oh wait, I don't want people to move here.
Um, yea, hipsters are all over the damn place, they are like lice or something, you can't get rid of them, stay away.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
I'd consider staying in Europe for the moment. Yes, the eurocrisis will worsen, but economies will recover eventually. Besides, most countries you mention (Australia, Brazil, etc.) have problems of their own: Brazil is still struggling with its poverty, Australia is more dependent on foreign investment than you would expect, and the US isn't really better of than Europe when it comes to job opportunities.
It will depend on your priorities.
The best paying positions are in São Paulo, followed by Rio de Janeiro.
However, since you have a family, you might want to consider other cities with higher quality of life, like Curitiba or Florianópolis.
Brazil is a very big country, and things can change radically depending on the city you are talking about.
morcego
A van, down by the river.
If you like Europe, the northeastern US is as close as you can get on this continent.
Decent public transportation, decent schools, friendly people, varied climate, mountains, ocean, forests, lakes, what's not to like?
Also FYI, be good at what you do and no financial crisis can hurt you.
Deep, classical hubris.
FInancial crises promote societal upheavals. They crash stock markets. They wipe out real estate values. They destroy savings accounts. They turn cities into war zones. If you're rich enough, you get to learn all about the wonderful world of K&R insurance, and the wonder of placing full-time bodyguards with your children. You get to live behind more walls than most Supermax inmates. Your spouse begins to take their frustration out on you, as do your kids.
You become acutely aware of how far away the panic room is, and you push down any thoughts that someone might not come when you call for help from inside. You hire people to carry guns for you, and you have to worry as much about them as you do any bad guys. You become a family under seige. Even your kid's puppy love has to be fiercely vetted and worried about as a potential gold-digger.
Your whole world becomes as much about fear and survival as any plane crash victim lost in the wilderness. Your doctor recommends anti-anxiety drugs, and THAT becomes something to worry about.
So there you are, as grim as any soldier in a losing battle. Your food is exquisite and tasteless. Your insomnia is at least wrapped in silk sheets. Spend as much money on hookers as you want. You'll never get close to what a woman who loves you can do for you.
And remember, this is what happens when you have enough money to try to insulate yourself from the upheaval. "Being good at what you do," means you're just another working stiff, and the functional difference between $100K and homeless isn't nearly as much as you might like to think...
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Economy booming because of natural resources being mined out of the ground and sent to China.
Doesn't help too much, unless you are prepared to move earth rather than bytes. You see, resource boom != economy boom... a high AUD (double in comparison with 3-4 years ago) means the prices for the other products a high... not that competitive an economy (the "two speed economy" rings any bell to you?).
Maybe, come this December, the wheat growers will finally be able to get their head above the water with the draught in US and good parts of EU - but is not a certitude.
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
My corporate firewall warns me that the link to openmint.net contains a Trojan Virus. Buyer Beware.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
5 years: some civilized country not in monetary problems
10 years: any country with oil/gas reserves and other resources that so far was relaxed about developing an empire in the recent past
20 years: any country with a proven track record of a reasonably stable culture (I mean stable over relevant time scales like multiples of 1000 years) that still has >50% farmers in its population and didn't experience any significant overshoot during the last 200 years of party time.
Even under the assumption that mankind finds a newer better energy source, it might take a while until full scale implementation, so even the optimists have something to worry about.
Also I assumed that when you stay in a country for 20 years you will stay there.
So far my decision is to stay where I am and take what comes my way. If I wasn't so fatalistic I would try to prepare for the 20year option which at my age ~35 would be doable but hard.
Cities aren't my thing, fringes of cities might be OK though.
Je me souviens.
I'd say Norway if you can swing it or Australia ... the former has oil, the latter just about everything else natural resource wise and a low population density to spread the wealth around. Something which both Norway and Australia are willing to do, without being afraid of taxing the hell out of natural resource profits to do it ... the Australian implementation of the supertax on mining shows a willingness to not let the country devolve into neo-feudalism.
I personally expect solar power and offline power storage breakthroughs in the near future, in which case Australia would become one of the most self sufficient first world nations in the world (the US has all the natural resources for this as well, but the class divide is going to get ugly there ... debt funding won't last forever, but raising taxation to sustainable levels is essentially impossible ... their population is too well indoctrinated, they're fucked, neo-feudalism ahoy).
New Zealand might seem to be in a similar position as Australia but IMO any country which manages a current account deficit with a trade surplus is run by traitors or idiots ...
In the US, people have to fund their own retirement and medical expenses. The social safety net is weak. That is no problem if you are rich or young (with lots of time to amortize the costs), but if you are over 30, the cost of moving here may be very high. Since you are an EU citizen, I would suggest you take a look at other EU countries like Sweden and Denmark.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
"Jeez, go wherever you want. Move to Cuba, they have 100% free health insurance there."
Yeah but do you trust their "witch doctors"?
Austin has a great local economy, plenty of tech, a decent state university, and plenty of things to do.
the God of War
Sorry, Dude, it's Slashdot. :-) I meant Playstation, not politics.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Have been to the UK, and most of Europe, have lived in the US and in the Congo.
While there are parts of the USA that are nice, on the whole I'll stick with Canada, thanks. Of course our current government really would like to turn Canada into the USA, while I think we'd be better off with a bit less of a gap between haves and have-nots.
who almost yearly takes the 6 hour drive up i87 to Montreal for R&R, Montreal is a pretty awesome place. I totally dug your pick-up-bike-drive-someplace-drop-it-off thingy, that now NYC is copying. You should make it friendlier for tourists to use though, although I guess there's good reasons against that (liability, transience, getting lost, etc.).
And sorry for not knowing any French or having any desire to learn. But I think you guys are used to us ethnocentric Americans, as I've never encountered brusqueness or hostility about being an outsider, I've always encountered warmth. But this is is in Francophone Quebec. I HAVE encountered less friendly snooty attitudes, only in Anglophone Canada. Which is telling. We got your back Quebecois if you ever try to go independent again. As a descendant of a New England American Revolutionary War soldier who killed redcoats and was shot at by tories, all I have to say is fuck the Queen.
Granted, I've never been there in the winter, and don't really want to go. But I hear you've built lots of interconnected underground malls and live like moles in the 6 month long winter.
I love Vancouver too. Canada is awesome in general, your attitudes towards healthcare, education, social welfare, guns, and financial responsibility is obviously way better than the USA.
Except for the weather, which is a pretty huge ding. That is why I have always maintained that global warming is a Canadian conspiracy.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
We try to keep it quiet.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
My consort and I went through the "where do we ultimately want to live" question a couple years ago, mostly focused on the US (being from the US meant no paperwork problems). We found a few websites to be awesomely useful:
Searching this way will probably yield a few candidates who have the mix of demographics you care about, zeitgeist hits, weather you're happy with, etc... Subscribe to RSS feeds of their newspapers, local music scene forums, etc... to get a better feel for each, and ultimately, visit your top candidate(s) for a vacation. We visited our top candidate after all of the above, and we were astounded that it felt perfect on top of being a specification match.
I live in Saskatoon. :)
Melbourne is a beautiful, fun, vibrant, diverse, relaxed, cosmopolitan, cultured, exciting and friendly city. It is a truly wonderful place.
I live in the middle of the drought area. Trust me, the grass really IS greener on the other side.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
I've worked both in San Francisco (CA) and in Munich (DE). And I would never ever go back to San Francisco.
Salaries are nearly the same, taxes are about 10% higher in Germany, but you have free comprehensive healthcare and a generous pension system. And workers' rights are far higher in Germany: in all large companies unions control 50% of the Supervisory Council (nearly equivalent to the "Board" in US companies), shareholders have a limited power, they're not the "owners" of the company. Workers' dismissal is also far more difficult.
I'm afraid that people in the US are really convinced that they live in "the richest nation in the world" because they've been told that since they were kids. Sorry, it's only the most militarized country in the world, not "the richest": 10% of wealthy people, 90% of quasi-beggars.
Get a job before you move regardless of where you are moving to.
I was forgetting about hours and holidays: in Germany 35 hrs a week, 31 days of paid holidays. I'm not joking, it's true.
I'd recommend either Canada (in BC) where they have cheap power and plentiful water and will not be impacted by global warming rising heat for the next 40 years, other than most of the glaciers melting.
Or Brazil. They have a diverse energy economy and should do well long term.
Australia is going to get even hotter and have even more destructive wildfires in the coming decades, sadly.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
If you are referring to me as a former Los Angeles resident, you are mistaken, but yes there are many Californians in Austin. I would not be surprised if Austin is 2/3's or more non-native Texan.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
For an European, getting a work and residency permit is a formality so you'll have no problems there. You can get by in English initially and pick the local language up later (French / German / Italian, depending where you go).
after i have relocated there and landed a sweet job, I don't want you taking my prospects.
My city (Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada) has an apartment vacancy rate of 0.8% (i.e. 99.2% occupancy rate). A 95% occupancy rate (i.e. 5% vacancy rate) is considered to be very, very favourable to tenants. 2-3% vacancy is neutral from what I understand.
Yes it's great right now, but there's a housing bubble:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-19/congratulations-canada-on-your-ongoing-housing-bubble.html
That's not the only problem. Basically the reason Canada is great right now is that a) it never de-regulated it's banks, so no financial crisis, and b) they have loads of oil to sell from Alberta. a) will probably continue, but b) is associated with loads of prosperity for a few years, and then a major crash. It's called the Dutch Disease, and it's a major reason why South Korea is richer then Nigeria in 2012, despite the fact Nigeria was economically better off in the 50s and then discovered billion$ worth of oil.
I'd actually say the US is the best bet. The debt situation isn't ideal, but since the US uses the US Dollar the problems this can cause are pretty limited. Inflation is the main one. We're basically printing money, which means there's more dollars but the same amount of stuff, which means that (in theory) every dollar should be worth less, in turn it should take more dollars to buy the same amount of stuff, and that is the definition of inflation; but so far the reality is we haven't experienced any. We would probably be better off with some, if only because that would make all the debts holding us back easier to pay off.
Southern Europe is in a much different situation. They don't control their currencies, and inflation is anethema to their Euro-zone partners, so they have to balance their budgets. But they can't do that without economic growth, and their economies are designed to grow only under conditions of extreme global prosperity or high inflation. Since neither is likely to be the case anytime in the foreseeable future they are totally, 100% screwed.
What's worse about the Canadian economy?
Debt is lower, unemployment is lower. Some of the country (particularly Alberta and Saskatchewan) are still booming. Saskatchewan saw a 15% increase in real estate prices year-over-year 2011 to 2012, despite significant increases since 2008.
There are rumblings of real estate price adjustments in BC, Alberta, Ontario and Quebec but they will not be close to the degree of adjustments that California, Arizona and Florida experienced.
Currently Canadian average wealth per capita and GDP per capita exceed the US's. That is likely to revert to its normal (slightly below the US's figures) but not today. Hardly evidence of a weaker economy in Canada.
My partner and I made the decision a long time ago to live anywhere but America. I have friends in the USA, and I visit fairly often, but I refuse to be in a country with the kind of politics that the US does. The fact that the abortion debate is alive and well is an absolute killer for us. Philosophically, we have trouble with a political system that thinks so little of its women and seems to be working hard to think even less of them. The split opinion on health care also baffles us; the fact that we don't have to consider our household budget or insurance plan when we need to see the doctor is pretty essential to us.
But, if you don't mind the politics and the guns (whether or not you get shot; you just need to not mind being around guns), there's a lot of nice folks there and a lot of opportunity.
So I can recommend Canada. Montreal, Halifax, Toronto and Vancouver are all amazing cities. They all have issues, but they're all wonderful in their own way. Vancouver will have the lowest taxes in that list, Montreal the highest. But the cost of living in Montreal isn't bad, so it kind of works out.
But ultimately, trying to predict the world economy and then trying to plan on where you want to live is a mug's game. Figure out where you want to live and see if you can make a living there.
I have to disagree. Austria and Bavaria seem to me far nicer than Alabama and Tennessee. When it comes to taxation, you _can_ get what you pay for. My income tax in the US is 27.5% (state and federal income tax with medicare/social security), and in two years I'll likely be in the next bracket up, which puts me at about what my similarly-employed relatives are paying who live in Austria and Bavaria. But they get operas, healthcare, museums, beautiful cities. I get a town that's socially and culturally in a coma, ABC stores, almost daily gunfights, and downtowns built for cars and not people. I mean, Alabama is great if your idea of culture is geriatric hair bands, and it'd be fine for me if I were single again and could invest time in hunting and fishing as I once did. But for urban culture, it's hard to beat some places in Western Europe. But then again, I'm not all "socialism is slavery," and I'll never earn in those brackets where a German is paying 60% of his income in taxes.
Your mother wears combat boots!
Equestria. Immigration is easy (the ruler just hands out land parcels is you show up looking sufficiently plumb tuckered out), the land is packed with resources (especially precious gems), public transportation is everywhere from trains to taxis (although you might have to take your turn pulling the taxi now and then), they're the only nation to possess weather control technology, they have the best pastries and apple products in the world, and the folks are really, really, *really* friendly.
All you really need to adapt to is driving on the left.
if your beer is any good, it will naturally cause us to drive on the opposite side of the road.
which, in this case, would be a good thing. no?
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
My own family and I ponder this question regularly. I'm self employed and able to work and support my family and household from anywhere in the world, so we frequently discuss just up and moving someplace. Not so much to get away from the US, but just to take advantage of the fact that there's an entire world out there. I'd be curious what peoples opinions of the best places to go if self employed are. On an up point for myself is I technically meet the requirements to gain Czech citizenship through my Father. So that may open up more regions in the world.
Anyone have any good places to go and live for various lengthy periods of time just to absorb cultures?
I've found it's difficult to get information on, as most people who are looking are specifically looking at countries that may also have work for them and most conversions, like this one here on /. seem to tend toward political/economic discussion of the living.
That's funny, I've spent some time in Canada and Germany and I find both the personal, and business culture to be much more approachable and not substantially more expensive (sometimes cheaper).
Where were you? Spain? Belgium?
Places with a culture of "work to live" are really different than places with a "live to work" culture like is prevalent in the US. It certainly does take some adjustment, but as someone who left the US a number of years ago, I'm really glad I did.
http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Labour+shortages+Canada+lure+workers/6992936/story.html
Interesting sig... not exactly sure how an economic system where the workers jointly own the business could possibly be slavery, in fact it seems the exact opposite... OH, you mean the idiots that try to apply socialist ideas to politics and get welfare states like Obama has been doing (100 million people/ ~1/3 of the population on welfare?! wtf). But that isn't socialism.
Incidentally, I have friends and a relative living in various parts of Germany and relatives in Paris and they absolutely love it and would never move back to America (most have lived there 10+ years), so I guess each to their own.
Ask Julian:
ECUADOR!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
No doubt that Auckland, Wellington, Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth would all be better cittes for work, safety and overall quality of life.....I love it out here. No stress, good job, and good pay.
Very cheap, I moved here myself, got an amazing house for 57000$, which is considered INSANELY cheap by my friends in Denmark, Norway, Canada, Usa and Australia. I got a BRICK house, yes a BRICK house for that price, I live in the most amazing nature you can imagine, and we have the train station 10 minutes away from where I live, and that takes me to anywhere in the world...I just traveled to USA about 3 weeks ago, easy peasy. Wonderful country USA, I love you guys, so friendly people, such a nice country.
But if you want a cheap retreat, not too bad weather, come to South of Sweden, you'll have any luxury you want, super shopping malls, 1-2 hours by train to any BIG city, 1-2 hours to any BIG airport to anywhere in the world...and less than 100.000$ for your house here...and clean drinking water right out of the tap...I can guarantee you...you WILL be in heaven. Super fast Internet pretty much anywhere.
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
There are drawbacks...
http://i.imgur.com/ITcYcl.jpg
> They [China] only care about money, not about anything else.
That sounds like one giant corporation.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Will that do for non-biased or will only the answer you want to hear be sufficient for you?
No offence meant, but your answer is biased - even though you didn't intend it - by being based around a single data point: yourself.
If I were choosing a place to relocate for the next 20 years, then I would want something more statistically grounded than the opinion of one person. Like, say, the world's most livable cities, based on Mercer's quality of living index. My list of places to permanently relocate would certainly include Sydney, Vienna, Zurich, and Vancouver. On the other hand, for a temporary relocation I would be tempted by somewhere more exotic like Brazil. If I were doing it short term and for the money and parties then Dubai - no taxes, and crazy expat salaries.
But, if you don't mind the politics and the guns (whether or not you get shot; you just need to not mind being around guns), there's a lot of nice folks there and a lot of opportunity.
Funny you should mention that. I really wish there was a country with a truly progressive political ideology in place that still lets me play with my guns. It's one of my few hobbies that I truly love but I wince when I hear politicians barking about "defending marriage" and such things that should be behind the civilized world by now.
More Twoson than Cupertino
obviously, if he's in southern europe especially. The issue isn't so much what *are* you doing, it's what job specifically are you capable of doing. A PhD in computer science is very different than a community college diploma in setting up a LAMP server.
You could say that others think so little of human life that they believe any reason is good enough for ending it.
Great, diverse economy. In the worst times, unemployment hit 6%. In good times, almost down to 2%. Lots of good jobs, in private, public and in non-profit. Good schools, low real estate prices, Nebraska tends to be conservative (but fiscally, not a bunch of rednecks, too much), but Omaha is more liberal, so it is kind of Nebraska's Austin, TX. There is a reason Warren Buffett still lives here. And it has become much more diverse in the last 20 years, bringing with that better selection of food and cultures. I run the local BMX track in a city park, across from the cricket fields, next to the dog park, just down the street from the one of the mountain bike parks. And of course we have all the baseball, softball and soccer (football) you could want. Tons of music venues, and Omaha has it own sound and bands (http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/06/06/136896920/the-indie-rock-club-behind-omahas-100-million-creative-boom). We have minor league baseball, two pro football (American of course - UFL and arena), two semi-pro hockey teams a few good college teams in various sports. We hold the NCAA College World Series (baseball) every year and have held the US Olympic Swim trials the last two times. Traffic is good. On the downside, it mostly flat (hilly) and the nearest skiing is 8+ hours away, if you are into that. Hot and humid in the summer, and cold (but not much snow, usually) during the winters. Autumn here is great, however. Not New England great, but still pretty good. There is casinos across the river in Iowa (plus or minus depending on your tastes). I could go on. Good luck in your search.
I've lived/worked in a LOT of cities in the USA (as well as another country). If you're an IT researcher, USA is probably the place to be for the greatest earning potential/mobility -- this is where the brainpower of the world aggregates. It will continue to be this way for a while despite reports to the contrary.
Food, gas, and electronics are cheap and plentiful. People (depending on where you are) have a high tolerance for eccentricity, 'different-ness', and new ideas. The Internet (for the time being) remains uncensored.
Seattle is EXCELLENT for jobs (even if you don't want to work for Microsoft), and has both a hacker and a foreigner friendly culture. This is the only place I've ever been where I can put a resume online and get around 8 phone calls the same day (YMMV). Besides Microsoft, it has Amazon, Boeing, and a couple of other places you've heard of nearby. That being said, it can be very isolating, and very cold and dark if you're from Southern Europe. The cost of living is high, but not insanely high. The city is beautiful and eclectic (live in the city -- do not move to Redmond -- neither beautiful nor eclectic!). It's the perfect place to be in the summer, and wonderful in the winter if you like having ski resorts within 30 minutes of driving distance. Avoid anyplace in this latitude if you have a problem with 4:30 pm sunsets during the winter.
Silicon Valley is another place where you will probably find a good critical mass of companies who need your skills.
Los Angeles is a place that I'd personally like to move to, and I imagine would have critical mass. The weather and beaches are beautiful.
The Washington, DC area (East Coast in the USA) including Northern Virginia and Southern Maryland is also a good area for IT, but has a lot of defense contracting work (which means that you will be at a disadvantage as an immigrant).
Florida also has some decent opportunities, and the wonderful bonus of being able to drive to the beach whenever you want (you will miss this pretty much anywhere else in the USA, even if it looks close to the water on the map).
Texas is also rich and foreigner-friendly in a way that you would not expect -- but it's not Silicon Valley!
I would stay away from the Midwest (as wonderful as it is) and any metropolitan area whose name you've never heard of, even if the particular opportunity is good. You will want the ability to change companies without necessarily moving.
Another piece of advice: If you care at all about your home country, do three things: 1) try to find a position that will let you go to there for the summers -- e.g., an appointment at an institution for only 9 months, etc. This is very difficult to come by, but otherwise you may be slowly driven insane with homesickness and the one to three (if you're super-lucky) weeks of vacation that a typical US company will give you. 2) Get plugged into your local expat community. Make sure it exists where you're going. 3) Pick a place with the most direct airline routes back to your home city -- otherwise you'll waste 2-3 days traveling each way (I'm not kidding!).
There is a lot of corruption in Brazil, but it happens in the private/public atmosphere (cooperations paying politicians, politicians awarding contract to cooperations, much like the US). I have lived in Brazil for 5 years and never had to bribe anyone.
Han-Wen Nienhuys -- LilyPond
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I moved here three years ago looking at staying 10-20 years. So far, so good. We have a thriving tech community, a low cost of living, and low crime. Due to this being the steel making capital of the world 100 years ago, we have a lot of old and awesome cultural institutions much larger than would be expected of a city of this size, but houses cost next to nothing compared to larger cities. We're in the middle of a natural resources boom; we export quite a bit of energy. We sit at the junction of three rivers, and west of a mountain range; we rarely have droughts. Winters are reasonably mild. Summers are reasonably mild. There's an enormous education center here. Healthcare is great. And we certainly have jobs, as well. Take a look at Carnegie Mellon University, the University of Pittsburgh, the Software Engineering Institute, and the National Robotics Engineering Consortium; pghtech.org lists quite a bit more. Education, medicine, finance and software tend to be the dominant industries here, which are (not coincidentally) more recession-proof than most. Best small city I know.
Australia is consistently near the top of all Quality of Life and other measurements, along with Canada and New Zealand.
Here is the latest:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-14/melbourne-remains-worlds-most-liveable-city/4198294
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_Index
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/
Do a bit of research and make sure you find the best place to live, not just for yourself but your family, your kids futures and their kids.
Disclaimer: I was born in Australia and moved to New Zealand.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
Based on the stats, sure, Texas is average.
Based on my colleagues (in Houston) with M.S. Engineering degrees and 10 years work experience, there was basically instant employment in the $60-$110K salary range. People who were laid off from the company with zero warning were finding better paying jobs closer to their homes within less than 3 weeks.
Cost of living: I'm going based on home ownership - $160K bought us 2800sf on a 1 acre lot in very close-in suburban Clear Lake... taxes are high ($5K on that house), but manageable. We were leaving Miami where we sold 1800sf on 1/4 acre in a similar neighborhood (with similar $5K/yr taxes) for $350K (2003). I'm sure there are cheaper places, but not so many with the good job market.
So, if you're an average American, read the average stats and ignore /.
If you're a highly educated tech worker, maybe what we pull out of various body orifices around here is actually of more value than the standard government statistics that any idiot with too much time on their hands can Google up on demand.
I lived in Miami from age 15-35, by comparison, pretty much everywhere East of Vegas and South of the Mason Dixon line is filled with bible thumping retards who refuse to fund public education - Miami schools weren't great, though the neighborhood we lived in did pass a special taxing district to help fund the neighborhood schools.
Clear Lake Texas, and other isolated pockets, are the exception - taxes are higher in those locales, but it is actually possible to run a decent public school system when you're willing to spend 5-10% more than you are absolutely required to by Federal Law.
"Which city"
Well there's your problem.
Texas has... decent climate
East Texas is hot and humid, central is hot and arid, West is hot and desert. A central Texas summer weather forecast is typically "very hot with chance of scattered wild fires". I personally like Austin, but know many who have moved here and are disappointed. Know before you go.
Depends on your definition of decent... I consider shoveling snow and Phoenix's multi year droughts to be indecent. West Texas doesn't really count, if you go per-capita it's a very small part of the state.
Many of the conflicts we have been stuck with are the long term outcomes of old colonial empires or desires for modern empires by intransigents.
For example the damn Middle East and ex-Ottoman Empire was partitioned by the British and French in such a way as to guarantee continuous war for the foreseeable future.
Throw in world oil dependence and what happened and is happening is mostly inevitable.
Yes mistakes were made, and will continue I am sure but blaming the US for it is just showing a lack of knowledge of history and economics.
It would be heaven for the US to be energy independent and be able to walk away from this mess.
Anyone have any thoughts on Mombasa, Kenya? I don't want to color this with my own perceptions, so I'm just going to leave the question wide open.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Just so you know you hit 42% + 5.5% of taxes at ~50k USD in Germany. And VAT is 19%. So really tax rate for 2* the minimum wage is ~60% in terms of what you can actually spend on goods versus what ends up in the government hands.
And that's only if you don't own a house or a car or ..., because then you'll be paying more.
And it's not like higher paying jobs are easier in Germany. In fact, they're far easier to get in the US.
Do you like to have to bribe your way around the local bureaucracy?
Do you like to live within a mile of crushing poverty?
Do you like to endure social, natural, and economic crises?
If you answered yes to all of these, then yes an emerging market is for you (i.e. Brazil, China, India, etc). If you answered no to any of them, stay in a Western country.
A nice, cozy, Western country like the United States?
If you want to avoid all these, you pretty much don't have other choice than one of those OMIGOD SOCIALIST! wellfare states, and even then these are not guaranteed. Nitpicking aside, all these three problems seem to be a part of everyday life in the US, just in a (slightly) different scale.
"I'm just here for the achievements"
And I forgot about a pet peeve of mine. Keep in mind that for anything remotely interesting, the cost in stores should be using the exchange rate 1 EUR = 1 USD, for example for an iPad or a tablet or a computer. So everything remote computer or telco related is another 30% more expensive than in the US.
It's getting close to the point that if you want to buy a decent laptop, you may as well travel into the US to buy it, as the price difference will pay for the flight, and you get to go sightseeing in the process.
Go to Panama. :)
Strongest growing country in the middle of America with easy connections around the world and an American standard of living with a third world country cost of living. Your money will go very far there without the paranoia you will find in other countries.
Our only curse is the politicians....
Rather than discussing social and other items statically, I would focus more on how well the culture's priorities match or fit those of the OP.
*The US prioritizes economic productivity, efficiency, and convenience at the expense of other virtues.
*People in the US benefit from decent wages, low total taxes and cost of living --> very large new homes and nicer cars, good entertainment/music, and 24 hour stores are everywhere.
*The US suffers low quality or high costs for education and is straddled with a need to maintain health insurance or bear that as a financial risk.
*Usually public transport is weak because of the urban sprawl, but cars are so cheap and convenient that hardly anyone cares.
Compare that package to others that might meet your wants and needs.
If I were looking 20 years out (emphasis on at least that far in the future), my first questions would be whether the country/region has a high tech level broadly distributed today and is likely to have reliable local sources of water and electricity then. Yes, I know that puts me out on the lunatic fringe, but the arguments in Limits to Growth are still relevant and we're just now entering the period of interesting times in their forecasts. IMO, that rules out Africa, India, China, and most of the rest of Eastern Asia including Japan (in that order). I'd stay clear of isolated urban city-states (eg, Singapore). New Zealand seems a reasonable bet, also parts of Canada, Northern Europe, and select parts of the US. Brazil and Argentina if they can finish getting their acts together soon. Water may be in issue in Australia, but my main concern would be that they've got an awful lot of resources that China would like to more directly control. Canada may have that same problem with the US.
I gave my own kids the advice that within the US, they ought to stay in the contiguous states, roughly west of 105 W longitude, north of 40 N latitude.
I hate questions like this. It always reminds me of people that used to act like the world is trying to obfuscate things and they ask things like what the best beer is, or what the best operating system is, or what the best car is.
There is no "best"! What you like is not what I like.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Believe me, that area hardly reflects the United States.
I'm so damned glad I moved away from there back in 2000.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
I moved to the San Francisco bay area last year and I'm loving it. Things to add to what AC said:
Don't forget about "The Big One". The entire US west coast is due for some serious, industrial-strength natural disasters in the first half of this century.
Normally "the end is nigh" pronouncements are just scare mongering, but in this case they have a real basis of fact.
The way I'd like to do it is alternate between the summer in Norway and the summer in Chile. I love mountains and seaside.
Naw, Equador. If it's good enough for Julius Assange, it should be good enough for anyone.
[...snip...] Also, I highly suspect you've never been there. If you had, you'd be pretty much crazy to prefer living in, say, the Congo.
Many African countries allow one to have as many wives as one wants. Now that's a draw!
So I realize that this is chapter ad verse from the Book of Bernanke, effectively, but it's insane. Yes, you are correct in the short-term that the amount of the debt doesn't matter, but how much it costs to service it. But that's only true if you can manipulate the interest rates to ever-lower levels to account for the deficit spending that we've all been experiencing. After all, even given your math, if the principal keeps increasing, the interest rate has to keep going down, right? So my question to you is, how long do you think the US can keep pushing interest rates lower? Certainly not forever. Probably not much longer at all. These historically low interest rates will have to increase at some point.
I make analogies to household finance because it's easier for people to see certain ideas as completely insane when framed in a conventional frame of reference. Essentially what the US - and much of the rest of the world - has done is take out national debt on what amount to variable interest rate loans, and we've taken them out at historically low rates. Indeed, we've set our national budget based on what we can barely afford even given those historically low rates, and even then our total debt continues to grow.
Sound familiar? Pretty much exactly what happened around 2004 when every homeowner maxed out on interest-only loans they could barely afford, then paid bills on credit cards. And we saw how smart that was. As soon as rates went up a bit, we saw a feedback loop that resulted in a cascade of debt failure. Now every country in the world is doing the same thing with their national finance that those homeowners did with household finance. Great plan.
The problem with your strategy is the same problem that happened then: everything gets screwed up when the interest rate merry-go-round stops and the cost to service the debt balloons. Even more fun is that, if we don't solve the problem, lowered debt ratings will also result in higher interest rates on that debt as it goes out of control.
So what do we do? Claiming that the debt is an artificial political construct is fantasyland. If your neighbor told you his debt - that amounted to as much as he makes in a year and is growing rapidly - is just something his wife says to piss him off, you'd say he was delusional. It's no different here. Ballooning debt is a huge long-term issue. The only question is how much we trade off short-term vs. long term to solve our immediate problems. Put another way, how much do we live off our credit cards to pay the bills?
First, you've highlighted one thing very accurately - continuing to pay unemployment benefits to some people who have been on them for up to four years straight is completely insane. Providing incentives to employers to hire full-time employees with health benefits would be a much better idea. But that is too obvious for US leadership.
The next thing is how you get off this merry-go-round. Your solution, as you state, is to simply manage interest rates at a low level. If only it were that easy - sorry, but you can't keep them this low forever. Or even likely very long. So the question is, how do you let them rise without leading to crippling inflation or an equities crash? Your plan requires a solution to that problem. It also requires a plan to return our debt-to-GDP level to where it needs to be, which will probably require keeping debt constant (ie, balance the budget) while increasing GDP and letting interest rates rise to normal levels. And it's going to be very hard to do all those at the same time.
Otherwise, we "solve" this stagnation/unemployment problem only to cause new, potentially worse problems. And this is the problem I have with Greenspan's legacy - we've spent the last 30 years solving the short-term problem while ignoring the long term. That's how we got where we are. We need to actually start looking at the long-term consequences of our policies for once. And that's why our debt problem isn't an artificial political issue. Anybody who thinks that hasn't thought this issue through past the next year or so.
There are also tiny towns all over the world with long histories of very stable economies and politics. Those are obviously harder to find, but they exist. Not every city in emerging or undeveloped countries is teeming with knife wielding, unemployed, illiterate natives.
The problem is that the submitters big plan is to have a career in technology. Try moving to some backwater town where you a) dont look like anyone there, b) don't talk like anyone there, and c) don't know anyone there... And then try competing for, if you're lucky, the ONE job around in technology. If you aren't lucky, you will not find out that there are no technology careers for 100 miles, only after you put a down payment on a bribe to a land owner so you can get a place to live.
Do you like to have to bribe your way around the local bureaucracy?
Do you like to live within a mile of crushing poverty?
Do you like to endure social, natural, and economic crises?
If you answered yes to all of these, then yes an emerging market is for you (i.e. Brazil, China, India, etc). If you answered no to any of them, stay in a Western country.
A nice, cozy, Western country like the United States?
If you want to avoid all these, you pretty much don't have other choice than one of those OMIGOD SOCIALIST! wellfare states, and even then these are not guaranteed. Nitpicking aside, all these three problems seem to be a part of everyday life in the US, just in a (slightly) different scale.
Holy moly, if you think the "Scale" of these issues (especially poverty) is even recognizably similar to the US, you must have the world's best pair of fisheye glasses. What happens when several MILLION people live on only 1-2 dollars a day, right next to a metropolis of several million with a western style of life of 100 to 200 dollars a day, or more? Hint, the answer has to do with private helicopters. And if you can't afford one... well...
I live in the SF Bay Area, so I am used to a pretty high level of culture, etc
But I spent 6 months contracting for Alberta's power utility Epcor about 10 years ago and really liked Edmonton -it is very multicultural, there is a big college -a lot of downtown is interconnected so you don't have to go outside when it is cold/wet and they have the Fringe Festival and a fair amount of live music and good restaurants.
There were enough french speakers and ethnic enclaves that it felt more European than Calgary or any American city I have been in although I realize that Quebec and probably Vancouver are more cosmopolitan.
If my gf could stand the cold I would definitely consider living there, but she can barely handle Bay Area winters....too bad, but it is below freezing for days at a time -in fact EPCOR was not allowed to completely shut off anyone's electricity -they had to give them enough so that they could run a heating coil so as not to freeze to death...
It was really cool taking BART to Edmonton for my commute I must say...2 weeks up there, one long weekend back home...
-I'm just sayin'
We've weathered 3 tech downturns since I've been in the IT biz without a dent, our housing market didn't have a huge bubble so there wasn't much value lost, and unemploment in IT is near 1% here right now. Everyone's hiring developers. Lived here all my life - weather's decent if you like real snow in winter and heat in the summer, the city is growing and modern, and there's a fair amount to do if you prefer more family-oriented over a single's night life. If you write code, come. We'd love to have you.
If you can take the heat, and don't mind the orderly government.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
Bozeman, Montana, is a great place to live. It has a low crime rate, and will likely be the place where we make first contact with extraterrestrials.
Perhaps, but health insurance is included in the tax. When I moved to the US, I was like "cool, so much less taxes", but now that I discovered just how much money my employer pays for my health insurance (instead of giving it to me), it's more like "lame, more of my wage ends up being withheld than in my home country". And don't give me that "you're still free to not get Health Insurance" shit because it's purely hypothetical - I do want health insurance and I pity you if you don't, thank you very much. It's about as helpful as saying: "instead of complaining about the risk of being mugged at gunpoint, just stay in your house all day, you're free to do so" (but not to have a beer outside).
And then we haven't factored in the other things yet, such as cheap and ubiquitous public transport, clean and relatively safe cities, yummy and healthy food that in the grocery stores that is actually affordable (unlike Whole Foods) + all the thing GP mentioned.
I call bullshit. The price differences are getting less and less. Except for the simlocked sponsored phones for which you have to sign a 2-year plan at rates that would give Europeans a heartattack.
Funny you should say that; I've always been saying the same thing but with "Europe" and "USA" swapped. Guess it's a cultural thing.
And I forgot about a pet peeve of mine: vacation. I'd just love to see your face when you discover you get 10 days of vacation a year. Yes it's really that little for a lot of jobs in the US. Unless you're a full employee of a university, you'll rarely come close to the 20-30 days you can reasonably expect in your home country.
Most of the money you will spend is not in gadgets but in food, clothing, etc. Also the prices for computer hardware in Germany are low compared to the EU average.
The economy is booming, and the energy export sector will boom for decades as Asia grows.
You might consider a change in professions to suit their needs, but Oz is rich and getting richer.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
It's a massive rambling wall of text with horrible cultural stereotyping and unwarranted historical extrapolation. If you follow the author's logic, Europe would never have become technologically advanced because it was feudal, backward and stuck with a debilitating belief system during large parts of the middle ages. Pretty much the only thing good about the text is that it contains a crash course in (certain parts of) Chinese history, although if that's what you're in for, Wikipedia is a much more enjoyable read.
Go ahead, don't say I didn't warn you.
Now, if you have some means to move, Australia is pretty cool, but I'd focus on Melbourne and points south. Much nicer, cooler, weather. The economy is rockin' but the soil is weak and it has very little fresh water.
If you don't mind isolation and are more family oriented and neighbourly, New Zealand could work for you.
Good luck. I left San Francisco for Toronto in 2006 because I saw what was coming down the pike. Sold my place that I bought for $375k for $890k. Was able to put a REALLY nice down payment on a place here in Toronto, and bought a small cottage in Prince Edward County for cash. So, if housing prices go down 20, 30% I don't really care. The poor fuckers who bought my place in SF are now underwater on their mortgage. Be smart. Look ahead. Look at basic strengths. But do get out of the USA. That place is fucking doomed.
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Mt Airy, Philadelphia. I am not kidding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Airy,_Philadelphia
- diversity: one of the most racially integrated communities anywhere
- excellent schools: Philadelphia and the surrounding suburbs have some of the biggest variety of excellent schools anywhere including private and charter schools.
- tight knit startup community
- cheap: low cost of living for a big city on the US east coast
- transportation: fast train to center city or to New York
- food: Philly is a fantastic city for foodies
- beer: philly is an unbelievable beer city. tons of local crafts and world class bars
- Not Boston
- Not New York, but it is highly accessible
must... stay... awake...
I met a guy from Germany settled on the mid north coast of NSW in Australia to do IT consulting work for global clients. Surf all morning, work all afternoon.
Go well
It is not a perfect fit for what you want, but check the Wikitravel article on "retiring abroad" for info on various places that are cheap to live and that do encourage immigration: http://wikitravel.org/en/Retiring_abroad
So brunettes: Latin America , blondes: Eastern Europe.
South America, I think, has it's best days ahead of it. I'm seriously considering Buenos Aires in Argentina, or Guayaquil in Ecuador. The advantage to most countries in South America is that the dollar usually stands up pretty well against local currency, and they often have generous immigration programs for the "investor" (anyone who's willing to drop $25k in a CD) class. I'm not sure about Argentina, but I know Ecuador has such a program.
When looking at countries for stability, I like to look at how well capitalized the banking systems are. The theory being that the more capitol the banks have on hand, the less likely they are to totally screw up the local economy. The banks all over south America have ridiculously good capitalization, some even holding as much as 30% of deposits in liquid. Contrast that with American banks that hold less than 6% in liquid, and the places you want to be become obvious. There are a couple spots in Europe where it's good to be a foreigner right now, but I would avoid anywhere on the continent until things start looking up.
Lots of good places in Asia too. For example, Hong Kong looks promising. Very business friendly, if that's what turns you on.
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As a multinational having lived and worked in several countries in Europe, as well as Australia and the US, and working everyday with people from all over the planet, my opinion is that differences are largely cosmetic. If you have any talent at all you can do well in almost any country that isn't obviously at war and that isn't an insufferable dictatorship.
In spite of what people say, the actual differences in the West are often exaggerated. If you want long-term employment in a stable company Germany is probably one of the safer bets right now. If you want to start your own company soon, the US is probably still the best place to get initial funding if you have a good idea. Some countries are more welcoming to foreigners than others, these include the UK, Canada, Australia, and France (contrary to what people might think). This is less the case now in the US in fact. Some countries are not doing well economically right now like Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece, but most likely they will rebound in a year or two.
Be prepared for a culture shock now matter where you go. Spend time to really learn the language. Plan to stay at least 2-5 years to make it worth the investment. Be prepared to go through a lot of red tape (visas, work permits, etc). Make sure you can acquire the nationality of where you want to live, eventually, without losing the one you have now. You will eventually want to participate in the political system of where you live. Since you plan to have kids, look up the school system. Research before going, get help, etc. Once there invest time and effort into your community, and you will be right.
Don't sweat it.
You mentioned Argentina, I'll comment on that.
The place has a lot going for it in many respects but it also has many factors against it.
If earning from abroad I'd say it's a proposition. They say in Argentina you'll never starve as such, you'll just be really uncomfortable.
However, the peso has been devaluing at >20% for decades now. Graph it against the dollar and you can see this is intentional printing press work. Strikes and chaos have been going on and off for decades. There's regular economy crashes. Currency exchange restrictions and protectionism bite.
It all depends on what your income is. If you have safe income outside the country then you should be fine apart from getting caught up in the economy crash every 10 years, subway strikes and bureaucratic madness.
The bureaucracy is insane. It's much like Business is systematically pursued and attacked from all angles. Perhaps this is a result of having peace for so long instead of having everything flattened in WWII and rebuilt. It has a cooling effect on buying houses, exporting is a nightmare, things go missing, people rip you off, goods get stuck at the port etc etc. Anything involving red tape is bedlam.
There's still a large element of blackmarket. Everybody is just trying to survive. Every now and then the gov comes after an element and changes it.
People are hardened against all this stuff. It's an interesting study in the things that could be coming the way of Europe and the USA. People survive in their own ways, whether it's doing cash in hand in a profession, keeping funds outside of the country or blackmarket trading. The question would be how you would be able to do that? You might be able to do this for years but I wouldn't feel completely secure... just more secure than Greece.
A blog I run for the wealth
Exaggeration. Many companies provide 30 days of paid holidays but AFAIK only 25 is legally required. Of course there are several public holidays on top of the normal holiday (relating to Christianity) which do not exist in USA or many other, especially non-European, countries. 35 hours a week is also not a standard, I think 38-40 hours is more common in white-collar professions.
Philosophically, I have a problem with any country that thinks so little of children as to allow them to be killed before they're even born.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Those who live in a paradise don't want more people to move there.
Apple US store iPad US$399
Apple DE store iPad EU399
399 USD = 325 EUR
I here Winnipeg is lovely.
My parents chose Australia just on 30 years ago, and my kids are grateful for that choice every day. Like me, they have dual UK/Aussie citizenship, which is a big plus.
Hal Spacejock: Science Fiction with Nuts
Sales tax is not included on the Apple US site as it varies state-by-state :) The actual cost of the iPad 2 in Germany from the Apple store is EUR 335,29 (ie EUR 399 after tax).
versus
For delivery to a Detroit-metropolitan area ZIP code. Oddly, though the iPad 2 is listed for USD 399, I couldn't actually find out how to buy one of those, the basic price being 499 USD instead. Hope this clears up the confusion!
If all you have is a grenade, pretty soon every problem looks like a foxhole -- MightyYar
The biggest factor in my opinion is whether you are truly accepted in the new country. Countries such as the US, Canada, Brazil, Australia, Mexico and many others especially in the Western Hemisphere are full of European immigrants like yourself so you feel quite welcome. I personally would be skeptical of moving to a country which is dominated by a few local cultures such as China, India, Russia, most of Europe, and most of the world for that matter. It makes a big difference whether you feel that you have to assimilate or if your native culture and adopted culture both become your identity.
I moved countries a few years ago, and even moving within one's own culture area can be hard work. There will be many little legal things and things to do with the system you move to that you need to learn.
As to the question "what is the best country to move to", the answer is based on your expectations of the future, or your goals.
I am a family man and moved with young children. I believe I will stay here in Sweden for the foreseeable future. There are a few reasons for this, many of which have to do not only with my own chances for the future but also for my children:
Good, cheap healthcare ...and a few more reasons
Good efficient social care (not perfect, but pretty good)
Excellent quality schools at all levels
Schools have no tuition fees (paid for with tax money. This applies to universities as well)
Good human rights situation
Good safety (low crime, low accident rates, high survivability)
As you may see many of these reasons include contingency planning. If I should become unable to work I won't lose a chance of a decent life, and the rest of my family continues to have good future prospects. The US scares me mostly because of health care costs and job loss issues, otherwise the US can be seen as a land of opportunity. But lose your health and job in the US and it's not just your problem but also your kids' problem. That's not something I really want to aim for (unless I were to get the kind of wages/income that makes those issues moot).
Scandinavia is excellent for this, but much of Europe is also quite good. The public healthcare systems in most of Europe range between decent and excellent, and the public school systems do likewise. The UK has quite expensive tuition for most higher level schools, and most countries have some private schools that may cost a bit.
So I don't see it as only being about the visible costs of housing and food vs the size of the paycheck as I see many other issues that easily outweigh that. In Sweden I can survive on a very small paycheck, live comfortably on a small paycheck, and live extremely nicely on anything larger all the while knowing that if something gets messed up there is a safety net for myself and my family. I would trade away half my paycheck for this (in the form of taxes and/or a lower total paycheck)
IMHO, to determine what you are after, analyze each country and location the same way you would analyze any other system for a customer. Do a cost / benefit lifecycle analysis for each timeframe and assign a probability to each outcome for the reliability of the data. Multiply the probability times the probable outcome weight and compare it to the sum or average of the probability adjusted weights. Now maximize/minimize for desired probabilities, and take pick your winners in each category. Now adjust the answers due to the weight you give to each category, and choose the max/min of each. Sum the answers and get your 'winner' overall.
Take that answer, and adjust it by your gut feel 'reasonable answer' fear factor quotient to see if you believe the imperical results to see if you want that answer or not.
Now if you were a client, you would make a recommendation to a customer (where to build a new datacenter, or distribution center, etc). But for personal use it still comes down to personal bias. ... Since my wife won't read this, I will admit I did a cost/benefits analysis of getting married vs not, and a 'requirements' list for desired traits in a spouse. She meets or exceeds requirements in all areas I had noted as important, of which I am very pleased. And 30+ years later, it seems like it stuck, but I still try to NOT take her for granted.
We do the same thing when we make any life decision. Normally the analytical solution wins, but sometimes the 'gut feel' wins. The 'gut feel' wins when there is 'just that something that doesn't seem right' about the analysis. ... Doing a post mortum analysis of our analytical analysis to see 'why' normally finds there are areas we didn't consider or our analysis in that area was made on bad assumptions for whatever reason. ... All that being said, what is your 'best guess'? Where are you getting your data from? Is that source normally accurate? Do you believe their perspective?
As a US citizen, I am bias in favor of the USA doing the right thing in the long run. But long run might be longer than I live. The USA does make stupid decisions mainly because the US voting public is gullible and overly optimistic when given dreams of a brighter future rather than information and facts about the way to a more prosperous for all future, IMHO.
For my money, If you see a country like Greece starting to believe in doing the right thing, and going down the belt tightening route, it might be the best long term bet, and if you can move in with some capital, it is the time to 'buy low' and 'sell dear' in 20+ years. But the time in-between can and probably will be hard. If they don't, just don't go there, the risk is to high both in safety and economically.
Canada and Austrailia are good, but IMHO their level of socialism is unsustainable in the long run, like the UK. But it will work for a while longer because they have the peoples mandate, and their governments can live on debt for a long time.
Depending on your religious tolerance, some Islamic countries are quite good for 20+ years, and some are not. Religion and religious tolerance by you and the country might be a reason to choose or disqualify a country. Even in the USA, some states are more liberal than others and some of them are more 'tolerant of different views' than others, even though our laws supposedly don't allow it. (i.e. Utah is still basically Mormon (the Church of Latter Day Saints) as a de-facto religous requirement to succeed. Some southern states are considered 'bible belt' and are pro-conservative Christian interpretation. Some states are effectively 'atheistic' if you look at polls taken by various groups (many states in the NE and West coasts, and north), Folks in the midwest 'flyover states' tend to be more 'independant' both economically and religously, but tend to be 'more religous' than the coasts.
Reviewing the CIA Worldbook web site might help in overall country selection based on lots o
... "When you pry the source from my cold dead hands."
37.5 hour days (non-exempt), about 35 days off counting PTO and holidays. Live in the US, midwest.
Cheap storage VM.
Universities and Gov. jobs are supposed to set the standards of more vacation and balanced worklife. The Fox news crowd has convinced people that they are not free loaders instead of fore-runners.
It saddens me when I hear people talk about Gov employees salary and benefits. Federal workers and contractors were the first to benefit from an 8 hour workday, it has since spread to the rest of the economy. Unfortunately there are many forces at work to smother this accomplishment.
Cheap storage VM.
Does the Drone War mean anything to you at all? The current administration is at least as warlike as the last one, the only difference is that they've figured out that automated flying robots are cheaper than soldiers.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
But if you don't want kangaroo pick you for a boxing fight on broad day light, you should choose Canada.
Australia has great amount of resources, has a fiscally conservative government and they are poised to make big bucks in the next 20-30 years. Other than that, China is looking good. Know Manderin? Down side is they aren't nearly as well armed. Easily the best place would be Australia or New Zealand. Don't go there if you think Obama is great. The shock of reality may kill you.
Exactly. And even in the hypothetical case you'd manage to find it for $399 with no strings attached ("truth in advertising" has a different meaning in the US than in Europe), I dare "oelewapperke" to find a plane ticket to the US and back for EUR 75. The cheapest return flight I ever got was more than EUR 500; I'd love to know what kind of "decent laptop" he's planning to buy. Of course, he might be scheming to bring stuff for his family and friends too. Then he'd have to be very careful; the customs officers in Europe are keeping an eye out for people coming from the US loaded with apple products (which, in all fairness, have been cheaper in the US at times). Bottom line is that I can imagine more profitable businesses than running electronics from the US to the EU. And as I said, the price differences are getting less and less.
"crisis [krahy-sis] noun, plural crises [-seez]
Example Sentences:
1. Well, let's go back to history and think about the leading indicators of financial crises and what they are.
2. However, computers are still amateurs when it comes to thinking their way through unforeseen crises such as component failures.
3. Feedbacks in the economic network can turn local crises into global ones. "
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer
Casteism
Seconded. Also, with the water from the Great Lakes flowing past in Lake Erie & Lake Ontario, Western New Yorkers will be the last to have to worry about drought and lack of fresh water. When the grid runs out of fossil fuel, we still have Niagara Falls hydro.
Yeah I'm from Rochester NY. I'll drive on your ice with proper equipment. The fact is, there's no proper equipment down there. We have cambered roads, a shitload of salt, and (for the most part) roll with studded snow tires. Those guys were morons to think they could just hop in a van with half-bald tires and take on an ice storm.
But as far as that goes, there are some days I wish it were possible to drop an atom bomb on the Pakistan frontiers where the Taliban take up shop. I suppose you think the Taliban are hard done by. Nice people who destroy national (and important to the world) antiquities, force women to wear tents, and shoot them if they see fit, poison school wells because they don't think students, especially girls, should learn anything that isn't in the Koran, etc. etc. etc.
If you can live with yourself implicitly supporting the Taliban, I can live with the drone war on them. It isn't a matter of you're either with me or against me, more you're either part of the problem or you're not. Not providing Afghanistan a look at what the alternative to the Taliban can be by providing schools and support for their fledgling police and government infrastructure just invites the Taliban back. Not preventing the Taliban from killing, poisoning, intimidating, is inviting them back just as much as anything. But of course you have already implied you think theocracies are just fine with you.
Sure you'll spout, let the people decide. How well can you decide anything if someone points a gun at your head? If someone were going to kill you or kill your children if you didn't suck a cock, you'd do it and ask for more. Unless you give the people a break from these thugs, they won't have chance. The Taliban preach their theocracy with a gun barrel. And these Taliban thugs won't stop. Hell just yesterday they attacked a base where the Pakistanis store nuclear weapons. So you'd rather we did nothing a would be OK if religious radicals were in control of nuclear weapons. Are you looking forward to Iran arming Hezbollah with nuclear bombs?
You think trying to do something against these scumbags is warlike? When the Pakistani government not only won't do anything about them often even where forced, but actively if covertly support them (Bin Laden couldn't have set up shop like that without government help). You really think combating these people is warlike? I don't fucking think so.
Chamberlain showed what happens if you choose to avoid a distasteful but needed call to arms. Don't give me any crap about some principle when I say his name, but Hitler could have been stopped early if the leaders hadn't been so afraid to do what needed to be done. Do you know who had the most heavy tanks in Europe in the late 1930s (including 1939/1940 during the phony war)? France; that's who. Not Germany. It had nothing to do with manpower or equipment. Thinking forcible disarmament of Germany was warlike and war mongering caused WWII and the deaths of 11.5 million people in death camps (the Jews weren't the only group thrown in the ovens). It lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousand of soldiers and civilians. It lead to Japan making the Nazi atrocities look like a kids sandbox game when they went into China and the Philippines.
Being forced down the path to war because diplomacy doesn't work, doesn't mean you're warlike. It just just means you do what you have to do. Being warlike means doing something like that when there is no need. Before the invasion in 2001/2002 the Taliban were asked to give up Osama Bin Laden and they said no, they didn't think he did anything wrong. In fact the Taliban government showed themselves complicit by providing training bases for things they knew Bin Laden was up to (terrorism). They were a rogue state in every sense of the word. Never mind a few years before they had fired artillery into 1000 year old massive carvings of Buddha on mountain walls, at least 100 feet tall when many in the world begged them not to... all because of religious principles (that is a good indication of how they think).
You want warlike? Genghis Khan was warlike. Napoleon was warlike. Wehrmacht Germany was warlike.The Khmer Rouge were warlike. Most dictators are warlike. The Taliban are warlike. Stopping those who would kill to forc
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
I've non-seriously looked at moving to Canada a couple of times. The first time was during the Vietnam draft; I would have probably done Conscientious Objector instead, but also I'd only seen the Frozen North parts of Canada and hadn't yet been to Vancouver. Fortunately, the draft was winding down and I had a high lottery number.
But more seriously, during the Bush years somebody posted the Canadian immigration points system to Slashdot. If you're under 20 or over 50, they really don't want you unless you've already got a job that will sponsor you, and otherwise it would take me a lot more work now than it would have then. You get points for advanced degrees and speaking the languages - it would have made sense to have my wife finish her master's degree and me to relearn my elementary-school French. (I don't remember if First Nations languages counted or only French and English. And French isn't really all that useful in Vancouver, except for immigration, and I don't speak Chinese even though probably more of the locals speak it than French.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Close enough to three of the four countries that you mention. But not part of draconian China or chaotic India. City state with a good standard of living. Welcomes people in the service industry. OK
It's a lot easier to move to random places when you're young and single than when you're older, more responsible, and potentially have a spouse or especially kids. And if you don't like it, you can move back home. (In my case, the cool place that I moved was California, and I wasn't young or single when I came here, but it is a big world out there with a lot of places you might like moving.)
The original poster didn't say what part of Southern Europe he's coming from - if it's Italy, France, or Spain, learning Spanish or Portuguese won't be that hard, and Brazil and Argentina are interesting places to go. (Friends of mine moved to Buenos Aires and like it.) Costa Rica's friendly and doesn't have a military, though there's enough political corruption that the economy's not as good as it should be. Canada's nice, though for weather reasons I'm too much of a wimp to consider anywhere but Vancouver, even though I have lived in climates more like Toronto's. Australia and New Zealand seem to be accessible (not sure how the immigration bureaucracy is if you're not from the US or a Commonwealth country.) Singapore's supposedly a very interesting place, but any country that executes people for possessing politically incorrect drugs strikes me as really inhospitable to freedom of thought. (Cousins of mine lived there for a few years, moved to back to the US when their kids were starting school.)
I'll let the Europeans tell you about Europe :-)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The Drone war I'm talking about has nothing to do with the Afghanistan Taliban. It has to do with American terrorists such as the pro-life movement and the Catholics.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
So by your drone war, if you're talking about surveilance and treating U.S. citizens and close friends (like Canadians) like they're the Taliban, then I agree with you completely.
There used to be a thing proudly said that Canada and the United States were such good friends, unparralled in the world, that we had the longest undefended territorial boundary in the world. Now the U.S. is flying drones over it like Canadians are the bloody Taliban all because of bullshit rumours that the hijackers of 9/11 came through Canada (a baldfaced lie reiterated for years by morons like Janet Napolitano who even try to tell Canadians that one on a trip here a couple years ago... she got slapped back hard on that one). Now because of paranoia we have the longest defended border in the world.
If you want a good example of how friendly countries work, go to Europe and drive a car across the border. The border guards don't give a shit as long as your passport is from one of the right countries (and even though not a part of Europe, Canada and America for the most part qualify) they don't even want to usually see more than the picture then, "get outta here we were talking" kind of attitude. If you're a friend we don't need to ask any more than that. You're a friend.
And now the FBI is calling anyone who identifies as a Juggalo and listens to the Insane Clown Posse a criminal, and lists followers as part of an informal criminal enterprise. A gang. J. Edgar Hoover would be proud of the modern FBI and the president for that one. He'd probably buy the new director and the pres a fine frock for their actions there. Personally I think those two guys, the other two guys, the Insane Clown Posse are idiots and really don't like most of their music (I'm sure there is something in there that might be decent to listen to). But those guys don't have enough unburnt brain cells between them to be a criminal enterprise. Especially not an organized one. I mean holy fuck, what's next, separate water fountains?
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
Probably Israel.
Not sure where you'd put it, but the current location just isn't working out.
Don't know why anyone ever thought it would.
Oh, you meant what's the best place to which to relocate one's self?
Never mind.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I was ruling out Brazil because "too hot", but Curitiba looks to be a welcoming exception. Thanks for the reference.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
In Australia, there's quite a lot of gaming related business happening on the Gold Coast and Brisbane, both cities in Queensland. If you wanted to take a look at the job market in I.T., Australia wide, the best website to use it Seek.com.au. Hope this helps! -Stolzy