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Some Windows XP Users Can't Afford To Upgrade
colinneagle writes "During a recent trip to an eye doctor, I noticed that she was still using Windows XP. After I suggested that she might need to upgrade soon, she said she couldn't because she couldn't afford the $10,000 fee involved with the specialty medical software that has been upgraded for Windows 7. Software written for medical professionals is not like mass market software. They have a limited market and can't make back their money in volume because there isn't the volume for an eye doctor's database product like there is for Office or Quicken. With many expecting Microsoft's upcoming end-of-support for XP to cause a security nightmare of unsupported Windows devices in the wild, it seems a good time to ask how many users may fall into the category of wanting an upgrade, but being priced out by expensive but necessary third-party software. More importantly, can anything be done about it?"
VMWare.
They have a limited market and can't make back their money in volume because there isn't the volume for an eye doctor's database product like there is for Office or Quicken.
Kind of like college textbooks?
*ducks*
No need to upgrade to new software, it should run on Win7. There are multiple ways to configure compatibility.
That helps with hardware incompatibility but not security.
Run XP as a VM on Windows 7
Who cares if XP is unpatched?
Special dental application to track intervention history, show X-rays associated, etc should not communicate with the internet.
Same goes to timetables / reservations.
If they need machines connected for mobility : make an internal network.
I don't see such a problem here.
I bet a lot of that $10k fee is due to the software requiring FDA certification.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Compatibility mode?
It's called a Virtual Machine (VM). Sandbox XP in it, don't allow it to interact with the host system, and enjoy the rest of the world. Problem solved, I'd like a pint please.
-tehprofessor
Shouldn't that work?
Take an image of the workstation running XP, convert it to a virtual machine. Take your new Windows 7 Machine, load up VMWare.. and tada.. you're running in a more secure, easy to manage virtual XP environment which you can keep protected and unchanged for years to come.
Prevent those few computers that are running the program from touching the Internet in anyway. No networking services, web, email, ... or anything else. Make them strictly one function standalone devices.
That's bs, they had years to upgrade, plus, you can just put a vm with xp without network and that's it, if you really can't afford upgrade.
My solution for running really old stuff is just to have a bunch of VM clients running... and then you can safely backup the VM when you need to (nightly) and restore it when it gets infected (weekly)
On my Mac, I've got a couple of Windows XP VMs running old software and a VERY OLD Windows 98 VM running a single ancient cabling database app
Old disks die... new disks may not work properly with old controllers.
Can you still find PATA disks? How about floppy drives?
How about motherboards? or memory?
Isn't this why Windows Vista/7/8 has an emulation mode for XP specific software?
Fact: it takes amost 2 hours for windows to load a 645,000 lines HOSTS file into the DNS cache. While loading, all DNS queries are blocked. That is neither fast nor efficient.
Eat your words ("big fail")
A lot of "professional" users of computers (doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc) seem to think that they gotta have really special software to handle everything they do, because everything they do is so special. Much of this is due to people who think they're smart being duped by people who are smarter into thinking they need special software. Is the solution here that these professionals need to do a better job of buying their IT support in the first place? Admittedly, there is certainly some software that has to be written for very narrow and specialized needs, but a lot of these needs can be met by pretty much off-the-shelf solutions implemented by people who know what they're doing. I think these professionals start off by trying to do it themselves (because they are smart, you know?), find that it's not as easy as they thought, and then buy into the pitch that they need REALLY smart IT people doing specialized stuff for them. I'd laugh at all this, but it's part of why our health care costs so damn much.
If the software needs to be on the network, write a very strict IP to IP firewall rule. The rule only allows the box to talk to the IP-block owned by the company that requires that box to talk to it. If the software doesn't need connectivity to function, unplug that cable!
I mean, really, what are you doing with the eye tester? Running multiplayer game servers there? Stop that. This is a specialized device. It should need very limited network connectivity, if any at all.
Stop writing medical and industrial software for a platform that forces you to upgrade.
There's nothing stopping you from running X based *nix CAD software from ten years ago on today's hardware.
There's no reason to use Windows on a dedicated medical or industrial computer.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enterprise/products-and-technologies/virtualization/med-v.aspx
Something can be done about it, whether or not you like it is a different story. All those computers can be converted to Linux boxes and I'm sure they can find the software for all their medical records etc. If they can't find it, I'm quite sure some coders would be willing to write some for substantially less than than the $10,000 required for switching to yet another version of Windows that will be out-of-date in a year or two.
They need to decide if they want to continue on this never-ending path of spending a fortune whenever Mr. Ballmer says jump. That's the matter at hand, spend a small fortune or do it for free or nearly free and not have to worry about the security of your customers. I'm quite sure some deal could even be worked out with a Linux group willing to help out if they could; although I know of no such group off hand. Well their it is, I told you in advance you wouldn't like it. You have options if you suck up your closed source pride.
She'll pay the $10k after her system is wiped out by malware, you can bet. She really means she doesn't want to shell out the money, but if she had to she could and would.
I have a Doctor as a client and the largest cost for his upgrade is hardware, not software. I just bought a new $7500 server to beat the current system requirements for the EHR software they use. The upgrade cost for them is only about $1200 + services. The hardware requirement is unreasonable but the software is in massive need of a redesign. The vendor is always pointing fingers back at my client when the software fails (its already a decently sized server). Keeping the old server as a TS server to run the client (Windows 2008 R2) and the new server for the DB and the software (32 gigs of RAM, 2 RAID cards with 6 15K drives and 2 Hexcore Processors). If the problems aren't resolved they cant point the finger at me anymore.
The problem with this type of software is that once a vendor hooks a Doctor for any length of time, they are hooked for life. Migration is near impossible if they wish to retain useable client histories not to mention HIPPA requirements.
Make fun of Space Nutter delusions once, get your account modded to bad karma forever. Trolling with this crap? No problem. Ah, slashdot....
The feds have been paying $40k/yr to doctors as an incentive for doctors to go electronic.
That said - this is a problem with the junk MEDICAL SOFTWARE not the OS.
I work in a very large semiconductor fab that is full of dozens, probably hundreds, of DOS, Windows 2000, Windows 98, Windows ME, and Windows XP machines. They will never be upgraded or patched.
Is this stupid? Yes. Is there anything I can do about it? No.
I just got done negotiating the purchase of a 2-million-dollar piece of equipment that comes with Windows. We actually have a purchasing requirement that all software be provided with patches as necessary, including OS upgrades, and that all source code be held in escrow in case the company goes under. However, when we negotiate the purchase specs, those lines get crossed out, because the vendor refuses to comply and we have no leverage, so we buckle.
Personally I think that anyone who uses something like Windows (a desktop OS with known, SHORT service lifetime, suitable for desktop computing in non-critical applications) in an industrial tool with 10+ year lifetime, should be fired immediately, and this should have been the case from the very beginning, but I was not around back then, and it became acceptable. Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft, even when it's an idiotic thing to do.
Yes, something can be done about it. Not overnight, but it can be done.
What?
Use Open Source.
Your either need to pay 10.000 because it really costs 10.000 in which case you wouldn't be making a case out of it, you would just pay for it as part as your making business costs, or it doesn't costs 10.000 but you end paying 10.000 because third parties controlling your business instead of you.
If you think you are in the second case, just ally with other "eye doctors" and make a software factory to produce the software in your behalf as open sourced. On one hand, you'll pay the real cost; on the other, the old producers will be forced to either down their prices to the new market standard or fold down. Any case, a win-win situation.
My old hospital was hit by this already. They couldn't afford an enterprise license from Microsoft that allows them to pick which version of windows to install on their PC's, (hundreds of thousands of dollars), some of our critical EMR software was only XP compatibe and would not work on WIndows7. When Microsoft quit selling XP and wouldn't allow us to downgrade our Windows 7 systems, we were in a bind. We were able to find some XP licenses in the wild but still are between a rock and a hard place. FDA certification for our EMR vendors is a pain and moving to the new version of windows is hard. I have no idea how we will overcome the sunsetting of XP.
Move from Win XP higher was linked with National Instruments introducing new generation of drivers (due to changes in Windows drivers models). Most old software written for the old drivers will not work with the new NI drivers, and new versions of the specialty programs using it are either overpriced, or outright impossible to get due to developer's demise.
My old Roland MDX-3 needs a parallel port but other than that I can simple send files to cut via the command line (ex: "copy cutfile.txt lpt1") so I'm still using Windows 98SE without any problem whatsoever.
If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
Virtual Machine with XP on it. Derp.
Windows 7, XP mode seems to be an answer as it's pretty much fully featured XP VM.
In the linked article, the doctor couldn't afford to upgrade her specialty medical software.
1. It's unlikely that the version she currently uses does not run on Win7
2. It's unlikely that the version she would upgrade to does not run on XP
3. It's likely that the upgrade would cost $10,000 even if she wasn't changing OS versions
So what does this have to do with Windows? Nothing. The only information in the article is that specialty software can be very expensive. That fact stands alone and would do so on any OS and any version.
Has Slashdot become this gullible??
Sure IT dept are moving to Win7/8, but look at Kasier Perm health care. All it hospitals are still running XP at the patient room level.
It's a big problem IT depts are sure ignoring. Likely to force the hand of the CFO for a big IT budget in the near future.
Just because Microsoft doesn't support it anymore doesn't mean it is just going to stop working. Eventually, software won't be supported and new versions may not work, but they probably can't afford that either.
Sorry, there is a real cost to doing things, whether it is open source or commercial. I don't care if some folks can't afford it. Quit whining like children.
The only systems I run in to that are stuck on XP or below are some Win16 apps. Would consider seeing if they'd run on ecomstation to have a less easily attacked (if only by rareness) system if they weren't competitors systems. Our own Win16 and DOS applications were borked in to running on Windows 7 and a brief bit of playing with one of them on Windows 8 was succesful too - but the last one to be withdrawn from sale was in 2008.
To be stuck on XP you either need to have been extremely unlucky, or be using something ancient and likely unsupported. And if a normal upgrade for an opticians is $10k, we really need to move markets/country.
This is a really bad example to make your case. She has HIPAA data and needs to upgrade as her computer can't be patched anymore next year. No sympathy for someone with HIPAA data trying to get out of patching their system.
Now, if you had picked an example of someone who didn't have HIPAA data I'd point to options that could be done. However to be frank I am all out of sympathy for anyone in this situation. Microsoft announced end of life on this a very long time ago and frankly gave a lot longer on the EOL and support for the OS than Mac or any of the Linux variants.
This reminds me of the gas station owners put out of business by the new standards for underground tanks. They had years of advanced notice, yet they still refused to modernize something critical to their business that they knew they needed to. Time came that they could no longer be grandfathered in and all of a sudden a bunch of stations went out of business.
Why, because they didn't want to spend money for tanks that were resistant to leaks that could ruin the environment? A doctor that doesn't want to spend money to help prevent leaks (patient data) is no better than the gas station owner. It's a business expense just like any other and a business owner that refuses to give IT it's due as they should. Quit supporting IT neglect by helping people like this out.
Just because a piece of software needs to run on an obsolete operating system, it doesn't mean that should be their main operating system. Stick it in a VM and don't attach it to the network unless necessary.
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
Oh yes... the software world is increasingly greedy and hostile to the customer and it has been Microsoft leading the way from the beginning. And in case anyone was wondering when we would reach the breaking point? I'd say many of us have reached it or so sayeth the declining PC sales.
Things are about to enter a stage of incredible change and upheaval and not just in the computer/internet worlds, but all over. "we live in interesting times."
I have to keep an old Windows XP machine around to run Internet Explorer 7 because a website that I need to access only supports IE7 or older. I have *no* control over what they run on their servers, so there's no way for me to upgrade things at my end. I've tried emulating IE7 various ways without success. The server won't let me log in with anything but IE7 or older. About my only other option is to run XP in a VM, but I figured I may as well keep any problems isolated to one old machine and not let people in the lab use it for anything other than accessing that one fussy and archaic site.
Elsewhere on campus, there are machines running Windows 98 that run our scanning electron microscope, and a year or two ago I helped a colleague by finding an ISA video card to go into an old IBM PC that runs an x-ray diffraction machine (the DOS software runs from a boot floppy!). When it comes to expensive instruments that run for years with custom hardware/software combinations, it's like a trip back in time on the computer side. Unless you want to buy a whole new multi-$100k instrument, you make do with some pretty vintage computer hardware and software. It's not that the upgrade from Windows XP would cost a lot, but that the software and hardware would have to be upgraded simultaneously and cost much more. Sometimes many orders of magnitude more. You save the upgrade until something essential and unfixable has permanently broken, or where the increase in efficiency by getting a new machine outweighs the huge cost. That can be a long time in "computer years".
Aside from that, if it isn't broken, why fix it? Isolate it from the network, disable autorun, impose strict policy on what can and can not be done on that machine (e.g., general file / web browsing / e-mail not allowed), whitelist only the essential stuff, blacklist everything else, and it can be "secure enough" even as Microsoft's security updates lapse. Worst case, run XP in a VM if the software will let you do so.
What about XP mode in Windows 7?
If her problem is that her new software won't run modern Windows, maybe she can upgrade to Windows 7, but then use Wine to keep her older version running? (Although I can't see why Windows' own backward-compatability would be inferior to that.)
Yet again the closed source model fails society.
Most fancy expensive software has a perfectly good FOSS replacement.
I'm unable to process the concept of any software worth $10,000.
You know what, I was thinking the same. It's good I browse through comments before rushing to the "reply" button.
Also, dental business is lucrative business, if you're a good doctor you can make 10K profit in a month. My uncle (retired dentist) used to make 12-14K EUR monthly profit in Germany on average. Granted, he worked his ass off in 12 hour shifts at his own clinic, but customers kept pouring in.
The real reason is "I can't be arsed to do it" or "the new version of the software is not backwards compatible" which is not that far fetched.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
I doubt she "can't" afford the $10,000 software. I mean, if one of her $100,000 pieces of physical gear failed, she would replace it without thinking.
Right, everyone can afford to waste money.
I *suspect* what is going on is that she is unable to process that software is worth $10,000 when she gets "super cool" games for her iPhone for only $4.99.
I suspect she believe she already paid $10K for that software and shouldn't have to pay again.
Frankly, her clinic deserves to go out of business.
Jerk.
1. Disconnect XP system from Internet.
2. Buy a more-up-to-date system, for connecting to Internet.
3. Maybe buy a small local network hub. Connect both machines to it, and use carefully:
3A. Let XP machine be OFF when other machine is connected to Internet.
3B. Use "network connections" in other machine to disable connection to Internet when XP machine is on. This way the Internet machine can gather data that the other machine can access if needed, via the local network.
A lot of these small town doctors/dentists can't afford an IT staff. They rely on the software vendors for advice and sometimes people they know around town. It's really scary to think when you pay for appointments that a lot of those computers probably haven't been patched since they were installed.
You made your bed, now lie in it.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Just P2V it. This will work with many line of business applications, but not all. Particularly problematic would systems that control external equipment.
...starting with doctors buying software that's appropriately priced for their task.
I was involved in a full system upgrade for a medical facility. There were two huge problems that I had with the upgrade, and both of them had to do with the cost. After rolling out the software for a few million dollars, the company decided that the software that had been specialty-built was not going to work for them and a few more million dollars later they upgraded (again) to a better system. I've left since that second system was rolled out, but everyone that I've spoken to at the company has informed me that it's a polished turd (as much of that software is).
These small software companys CAN recoup their costs, they're simply marking up the price because they're dealing with doctors. All they see are dollars and cents and who *wouldn't* want to make a few mil for a years' worth of work? They get to take the next year off to travel the world and rent hookers until the next OS release, then they get to change a few lines of code and roll it out again (with a significant markup, of course). It's a racket, but I think they're just taking a cue from the rest of corporate America.
I work at a locally owned computer repair shop (not Geek Squad!) that does a lot of work for home users and small businesses alike, and I can definitely agree with many of the things being said here, but the one resounding similarity is people failing to realize that things may at some point become obsolete or the parts needed to service it will become obsolete. We run into this same situation described in the OP's article almost weekly.
If a truck was designed that was the BEST at pulling tree stumps out of the ground (realizing full well there are other products that are REALLY GOOD at this same task), if people buying the truck didn't ask the right questions, i feel they have no reason to complain about having to spend a ton of money down the road for failing to anticipate potential costs. If after using the truck for 13years (how long XP has been out), did the people never once stop and think..."Hey boss, what are we gonna do if this truck ever breaks down?" Seems most people have morphed the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" statement into "If it ain't broke, it probably won't so why bother planning for the inevitable?"
Also - when reading about the offensive overspending that occurs in nearly every corporate environment, I have a hard time coming to grips with the idea that this is an actual problem for companies pulling in millions of dollars. Yes, there are a few folks out there that are probably going to be legitimately screwed when XP goes bye-bye, but even then, I still think people's poor lack of planning shouldn't be an excuse to complain.
If you think you are in the second case, just ally with other "eye doctors" and make a software factory to produce the software in your behalf as open sourced. On one hand, you'll pay the real cost; on the other, the old producers will be forced to either down their prices to the new market standard or fold down. Any case, a win-win situation.
This is what I was thinking as well; just get together with peers in a similar situation, and 'Kickstart' an OSS version of the program, thus forever freeing yourselves from the shackles of proprietary software.
Plus, if you do it right and the software is good stuff, you might even be able make a few extra bucks on the side selling an enterprise version or support.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Sorry for posting Anonymous, just don't have a account. Buy a new computer, instal virtual box, instal XP in a virtual machine, and your done. Couldn't be easier, just need a IT person who is not stuck in the 90s/early 2000s thinking you need a dedicated XP machine.
too many comments, sorry if repost.
We have done 4 eye doctors offices with anywhere from 1 to 6 computers in them and the software was not that much to upgrade. We did an entire office with 3 computers, 1 server, and the software for under $6K. The software vendors all offer financing terms and many of them now offer it available over the internet for a monthly fee on a hosted / subscription basis for far less, like $100/month for a two computer setup. You can find all sorts of financing companies who will finance deals anywhere from 3K and up with no problem. This is a business issue not a technical one, treat it as such, get financing on the project and just move ahead with it.
We have people at the Biomedical department who are running extremely old, unsupported UNIX systems. Why? Well because that's what their special hardware requires and the software isn't being updated and doesn't support anything new. There's one particular setup that has an old Sun Ultra 5 that limps along as part of it.
You don't seem to understand that for some of this shit, the company dictates to you. Their software works only on one OS and they refuse to update it.
So you can't just switch to an X system because there isn't the software for it.
Healthcare is stupidly expensive to the point they are often completely unfair in the way they do things. Unskilled customers often give in to the demands without realizing what they are giving up or what it all means..,.until it's too late and often even after that.
The medical world sickens me often when I see this crap. And don't get me started on Insurance...
Software has a limited lifecycle. It's limited because it's not updated. It's limited because the OS changes. It's limited because it was never intended to be used forever.
Companies who didn't plan on buying replacements for their core software every 5-10 years are incompetent. I feel no sympathy for them.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
And if the software fails or does nasty things to your medical data... who are you going to sue? Have you even looked at F/OSS EULAs? I have seen a few EULAs for Windows-based medical software and upon buying the software, there's actually some (not perfect but some) accountability from the vendor. You can sue them if they mess up.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
She has had 12 years to save $10,000.
As a doctor, if she can't save $1,000 a year for a system she *knows* she has to upgrade (surprise, windows has a support life cycle), then she really is pretty irresponsible to begin with.
She is lucky MS gave 12-13 years of support on this OS in the first place (that is a really long time for them). My advice: Take responsibility for your own mistakes.
The only thing that can be done about it in the long run is to switch from pay-once licensing model to a subscription based model that includes updates.
Steady revenue for the developers, steady stream of updates for the user.
bickerdyke
Patches for XP, then the whole OS should fall into the public domain and third parties can provide them.
This issue is a failure to budget for expenses that can be fully planned for. I've worked with doctors' offices in the past and they tend to be very lazy when it comes to planning for future expenses. This sounds just like another example. Boo hoo for poor planning.
My company can easily afford a costly software upgrade -- we don't want to because changing from XP means requalifying compiled product with a new version. As this is a mass-produced embedded product, changing OS "just because" is asinine.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
It is not easy to segregate networks like this. Remember that the receptionist might need the reservations app, and will probably need Internet access as well. So you're looking at two separate computers on his or her desk. Same with some of the accounting people - they still need to pull documents from the web.
The military already does this. It's common to have three different computers with different security levels on one desk, all of them air gapped from each other. But you're looking at three switches, three sets of cables to run, and so on. It's a lot of work even for an organization the size of the US Army, so it would not be feasible for a small practice.
Support microSD: in a post 9/11 world, it is unwise to carry your data on media that you cannot comfortably swallow.
i have seen office boxes all the way down to a 486 running dos. taco bell cash registers are 486 boxes i think to this day. the fact is basic info storing or number crunching boxes used in a offline setting have no need in ever upgrading unless they get broken.
I'm still running iOS5 on my iPhone4 and iPad2 ignoring plaintive bleats that I think are "upgrade me" whimpers. Why? Bezos bought Lexcycle, which made Stanza. He's suppressed updates because it makes any Kindle look like the junk it is.
I won't upgrade my iOS until there's a Stanza update that runs on it.
The problem is not XP. The problem is speciality software vendors charging ten grand for a software update.
This kind of stuff is why it costs the rest of us $2120.14 to have a hangnail treated at our MD.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
I see that APK's running his mod-point-farming accounts again.
Should be done sometime this decade. Along with Doom 4.
Can anything be done about it? Yes. Don't use third-party software that you don't own the source-code in first place. You're asking to be put in such a position. No, you aren't asking, you're begging for it. Buuut people do need to feel it in the hardest way to learn the lesson, don't they?
For the ones who already are in such a mess, virtualize it. And do not repeat the same mistake.
I work in a gov't lab, and we have lots of $100k instruments that are running Windows 95, 98 and XP. Many are not upgradeable, as the instruments are locked into specific proprietary I/O cards, mostly ISA. Most do not have USB. We bought a $50k instrument two years ago that had XP as the OS. I asked management why we would buy a new instrument that shipped with an obsolete operating system and was told "That's the way it came." I find it hard to believe that an instrument manufacturer can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars of R&D money to improve their instruments and yet can not afford to update their software to run on non-obsolete operating systems.
Very often I noticed that the industry software some small businesses use could be replaced with more standard solutions. I recently had to deal with a stonemason and his software. These days they plot stencils and sandblast the letters. I didn’t like the few fonts he offered for tombstones and there was no way to make a file for him he could import. As it turned out he would have had to buy an additional (very expensive) module for the program he uses to import other fonts or any vector graphic format at all. During my research I discovered that his “special stone mason software” was more or less a repackaged plotter software which would be more powerful and cheaper if bought directly from the source.
They announced their end of life date on the day of release. MS sets EOL 10 years from day of release on their OSes. Now, in the case of XP, it was extended. They do that sometimes. However 10 years is the norm, it is what you can count on, so it is what you plan for. Like with Windows 8 we already know the end of support date: 10/1/2023. It is always possible that will get extended, but it very well may not. So if you put an 8 system in place now, you know when you need to start thinking upgrade (at the latest).
MS is real, real, good with the support lifecycle thing. They have a standard policy, and current information is always available on their site. So planning for when upgrades need to happen is not hard.
The XP drop dead date has been a long time in coming, and is still over a year out. There has been, and still is, plenty of time to deal with it.
Windows 7 with VirtualPC and XP Mode installed should work.
Either run the software on windows 7 in xp compatibility mode or run the xp in a Virtual Machine like vmware or virtualbox on windows 7 or linux host. At my company, I'm running netware 5.1(old early 1990's 2 custom program no source code that ran on netware 3 but migrated to 5.1 and 6.5) and netware 6.5 both in virtual machines temporarily in opensuse until we migrate the old software data to the new software on windows server 2012. No issues.
What's the Custom Medical Software database back end it's running on or is it a custom one?FoxPro, MS sql, MySql,MS access(hahahaha, can't be this)?????
From what I've seen, professionals are generally super-penny pinchers. Something to do with the fact that they've went through university and all that extra training and therefore are smarter that the general population and thus know better, or something.
I had to have some surgery done, and the consults with the surgeons were done in offices that really showed their age - being run down and everything. The computers they used were basically the best buy special of the week - the generally cheapass ones.
Likewise, if you go to see an attorney, they may have the nicest offices, but have IT equipment from the dark ages - again, the best buy special computers on the desk, some old PC serving as the "file server" and the like. And the IT guy is probably harried and underpaid, looking around for the next opportunity.
IN essence, the computer is just a tool in their toolbelt. If it works, they won't bother with maintenance. Upgrading is a possibility, but it's a tool. What they have now works, and unless they're shown a compelling reason to upgrade they won't spend a dime on it. They probably don't care that XP won't be supported anymore - if it works now, it's not worth spending money on it.
You can yell and scream and shout, but all they hear is "money money money flowing out". And yes, that $10,000 they save by not upgrading means it's $10,000 that can be spent elsewhere buying something else or doing something related to their line of business. Even if something needs upgrading (e.g., the old crufty 7-year old desktop repurposed as a server is dying every 5 minutes rather than needing a reboot hourly), they'll just find something else to replace it with - perhaps another old crufty desktop that was the receiptionist's PC from when they started years ago.
And yes, they're very receptive of open-source, because all they hear is free! free! free! (beer).
>> many expecting Microsoft's upcoming end-of-support for XP to cause a security nightmare of unsupported Windows devices in the wild,
Microsoft no longer supporting XP will hardly change anything. Their support is most usually crap and behind the curve anyway.
If you cant afford to maintain your vehicle, you cant afford a vehicle. Same goes with computing. Can you say Windows 7 with XP mode? Come on peeps, quit crying and get over it already. I am sick and tired of users coming to me crying about a few bucks, just try doing this stuff manually. Would cost hundreds of thousands if not millions.
Of course. But it all starts with the customer knowing when to say no. Most don't realize that they need to do that. Vendors will lock customers into Windows until the customers say to stop. And believe me, most vendors' programmers would be very happy to stop doing that, but their bosses are saying "no, we're a Windows shop, because that's what the customer insists upon." The buyer has all the power, maybe too much for their own good (if they don't use it). Use it selfishly, though, and everyone (except Microsoft) wins.
The buyer, not the seller, determines the worth of the software. As a user, you need to say that Windows-only software isn't worth as much as cross-platform or Free software is worth. I've never bought any Windows software, and last bought some MS-DOS software in 1994 (Doom 1). If everyone did that, Microsoft would be but a memory. But most people didn't do that, including your doc which is why he got fucked. Someone offered him drugs and he forgot what Nancy Reagan advised him to do. He can't go back in time, but he can decide this: NEVER AGAIN.
What about the $10,000 minimum per violation HIPAA fine for willful neglect but violation is corrected within the required time period? Or $50,000 per violation fine for non correction?
The avionics business is the same way. A navigational radio or altimeter LRU, developed and certified with tools that run on Windows 98/95, must maintain the machines and various tools is was developed on until the product is 'sun setted' (which is at leased 20 years). One company maintains a VAX 11/780 due to the nature of the product still being in the field.
Our business sets up medical/vet/dental office computer network. There typically is a server, which is either one of the office PC's or a stand alone machine when more than 5 treatment/workstations are in use. Keeping this off the Internet is difficult as X-rays need to be emailed for various reasons. There is no reason that Sandboxie can't be used to protect the system when online. We install it and set it up to block all downloads, but not uploads. It mitigates obsolescence and is only about $50 per station.
XP is 12 years old. It'll be 13 when it's EOL'd.
...why are you measuring from when it was first sold, not when it was last bought. The XP lifecycle is a little strange as it was so awful it needed a major (and pretty good) service pack 2. Even when Vista was released many machines (famously those on i915) ran badly...or not at all; many machines still came without Vista. In fact a whole range of machines (nettops and netbooks) still came with XP until Microsoft killed it with and the whole net* products with Windows starter (and crippled intel hardware), fortunately those come with Android, iOS and Chrome now. The minimum lifespan of a proprietary OS should *safely* be 7 years from "end of sale" otherwise its going to create a nightmare. In cotext of this article Net Applications still has 40% of users running XP.
If after using the truck for 13years (how long XP has been out)
Except if your buy a truck its age is not measured from when it was released but then you bought it. Its actually the same for software. most people did not get XP on the say it was released :)
And when he said 10+ years he really ment 30 years.
You are correct about support of general computing OSes but the the dude was talking more along the lines of not using any general computing platform at all.
Regarding, the vendors crappy attitude, absolutely they're barstards. Welcome to the free market, everyone gets to be barstards. Ties in nicely with the choice of patform I guess.
That was all I wanted to say... Linux with an XP emulator... :)
I predict a huge number of The Daily WTF posts about poorly written, slow, "designed" by someone who really didn't get the problem domain, in about 6-12 months.
Its a business expense. Write it off on the taxes.
I wont boo hoo and feel sorry for a eye doctor that more than likely makes more money a year than I do in 3 years. Yeah they are stinking rich, but they sure as hell make enough to shell out 10,000 for a program if they needed and then get it back later when it comes to tax season.
You better not get into the real world then.
Well - i've had this problem with an accountancy practice.
The software they use is about $245,000 per site. 4 sites, $1,00000 needed to upgrade. The solution was to VMware a new system - Built a new Linux server backend and placed Macs on their desks. If they want to use the accountancy software, they VM it on their desktop. The VM has no internet access - it's secure (It's placed on a different IP subnet to the office network) and all the other volume apps work perfectly.
And they have Macs - which makes the office look Maaaaaaad!
TANSTAAFL. If you want to be able to sue someone, then you have to pay them first. The amount you have to pay them is the amount of damages you expect to collect from them, times the probability that you would sue them (and win). Plus a mark up, which means it won't be cost-effective; you are asking for a money-losing idea. That doesn't necessarily make it a dumb idea, but it does make it expensive.
It's no different than any other form of insurance. And IMHO most people don't buy more insurance than they have to.
But the software vendors that want to gouge more money.
The POSIX platform hasn't really changed much in almost 20 years.
The windows platform, on the other hand, has changed ever 5 years or so (with the exception of XP which has been on lifesupport for about 8.
I would expect if her 100k hardware failed she'd have a maintenance plan, and if that didn't work, could get financing for a new one. Financing new software might be more difficult.
Try open source. it's a whole new thing.
I've got a customer that uses a package that runs on Windows NT. To move and reenter that data for the $5,000 software would cost $20,000+ given the software maker provides no way to take the NT data to XP. (or windows 7)
Upgrade for the sake of upgrade is not some new, magical XP "thing".
Band together and fund an Open Source project..
If you own a house, you get familiar with that kind of thing. I had to replace my A/C a couple years ago. Ran me about $7000 for a nice efficient one. Well guess what? That won't be the last time I have to replace it. So it is something I'm budgeting for. Not now, not next year, but in the future (I'm targeting 15-20 years out of this unit) I'll need to get a new one. So I'm making sure, to the best of my ability, that I'll have the money lined up. Same for other appliances, vehicle, and so on.
This is just life. Unless you rent everything, you will be replacing things and the more you own, like a house or, say, your own business, the more big ticket stuff that will involve. That means you have to plan as to the lifecycle and be ready for the expense.
Now for Windows OS related things that's pretty easy since Microsoft announces their lifecycle on OS release. So say you bought a product today that ran on Windows 7. It won't work on 8, and thus presumably later versions, and is not likely to be updated. Ok, that means that before January 14, 2020, you need to switch to something new. You have a little less than 7 years. So budget accordingly. If you software runs you $10k, then you need to save up around $1500/year (or $125/month if you like) to be ready for it.
If you can't deal with that, well life in general will cause you some headaches and you probably shouldn't be running your own business. Planning finances is a big part of it, you do have to think long term and you have to deal with some expensive shit.
Dream on, eye doctors don't have time to manage and QA an open source project. they're not even qualified to do so. and to think they'd risk money on a multi-year project with uncertain outcome is ridiculous
The short term solution is to dedicate a virtual machine to their particular task and restrict communication of that VM to the outside world. Now which platform to run that virtual machine? Well, I'm glad you asked :). Linux of course. Once that gets traction, we'll then have third party software written specific for or compatible with Linux.
Because we all stopped paying for software when we got Internet access.
The OS comes with the computer, so no one thinks they're paying for it.
Based on some limited experience (largely post-mortems on failed medical software deliveries), and assuming that any sort of patient records are going into the system, I'm comfortable guessing that the "kickstart" cost will run to tens of millions of dollars. The big companies that play in this specialized field have entire groups dedicated to tracking the changes in federal and state government requirements. The people who use the software are going to insist on support contracts to keep the software in compliance as those changes appear.
A tool used in business should reduce the cost of doing business by reducing labor or increase the output of the business to more than pay for the tool. If it is not possible to justify the reported $10,000 cost then go back to paper and pencil.
If "others" (competitors) are able to buy the tool and this business is not then the problem is with the fundamental profitability of the business.
This looks like an ad for Software as a Service. The cost is clear, incremental and the obligations of the vendor are called out clearly in a contract. The cost/benefit is clear and the vendor needs to keep his product and his customer competitive in order for the revenue stream to continue.
More details:
- Use a secured host. Either Linux or Windows 7 (depends if Firefox + openoffice.org would be enough or not) but either has to be up-to-date.
- Run as much as possible software outside the VM using modern up-to-date software (if a browser is required, see if firefox running outside the VM does the job, or if you're stuck with IE 7).
- Isolate as much as possible the guest. (Guest shouldn't have ANY outside access at all, guest should only have a limited access to the host, host should be heavily firewalled against guest).
- If the medical software requires web access: provide it by having a secure web proxy running on the host.
(ev. use a virus-scanning plugin on the proxy).
- Think of ways to scan the content of the virtual disk from outside the VM.
(For example, have an actual LVM logical volume used as virtual disk. Snapshot it, mount the snapshot read-only on the hose and scan it, while the guest is still running).
- Think to make it easy to use: The best would be to run the VM in a mode where the guest's windows are displayed as normal windows on the host, and the guest desktop is hidden. Thus the user doesn't have to think about a "windows XP inside a window".
It's not perfect. But it's a quite sophisticated configuration to avoid putting the computer at risk, just because XP isn't upgraded anymore.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Can anything be done about it? Yes. Don't use third-party software that you don't own the source-code in first place. You're asking to be put in such a position. No, you aren't asking, you're begging for it. Buuut people do need to feel it in the hardest way to learn the lesson, don't they?
For the ones who already are in such a mess, virtualize it. And do not repeat the same mistake.
Ok, so now, try to buy medical software using that paradigm. And I don't mean someone's genome sequencing project in college, but actual software rated for front line medical use. This is not a question of MS Office vs Open Office. It's a whole 'nother world.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
I'll bet the software vendor would accept monthly payments or (these days) probably offer the software for a subscription rather than $10k up front. Better than someone hanging on to old software for years and years.
Place the key app in a vm, only allow that apps traffic with the most restrictive (host side) firewall rules that are feasible.
If you know enough about virtual machines and provisioning, there is a good market for your skills. Install a good distro of linux, install a virtual machine server, provision a XP machine, using the old license. Set up proper firewall and a hardwired whitelist access hosts file. Make the old software work in new machine. Profit.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
...is it really that they can't afford it or is it that they're just cheap? Maybe I'm suffering from the "all doctors are rich" stereotype but if you needed to spend $10,000 to renew some sort of professional license or qualification in order to continue practicing medicine, you'd find a way to get that $10,000, right? Why is it acceptable to be a cheap bastard when it comes to software? Maybe the "what can be done about it" is that these vendors build in a "end of life" like Quicken does.
There seems to be a profound misunderstanding in her about what operating systems do. The OS is not the application. To non-geeks in the field, it's just a program loader and a set of basic resources that their application uses. Regular non-geeks tend not to see the value in digging up and replanting every time a new version of the OS comes out. Or to put it another way, the cost, work, and risk associated in upgrading the application (which is what they care about) is why they don't bother to upgrade the OS (which they do not care about). It's not a matter of being a cheap bastard, it's a matter of (a) sticking with something that you know works, and (b) not giving a damn what the splash screen looks like.
Quicken is $39.95. A software package that costs $10K to upgrade probably cost around $22K for the full version. Putting something like that on an end of life timer is a good way to watch your customer base switch to your nearest competitor.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Webchartnow.com. yeah, shameless plug.
The physics department at my university was forced by the uni to upgrade all the computers to Win7 over these last holidays. Unfortunately, our department could only afford to buy upgrades to the software we use for win7, and could NOT afford to upgrade the 7 year old hardware. We know have a computer lab of 30+ computers that are nearly unusable, because they bluescreen after half an hour of use due to lack of memory.
I have been working in the POS industry since '04, I also have users that are up against the wall for that same reason. The solution was for me to become a Windows Embedded Partner and build Windows Embedded Standard 2009 kernel (pretty much same as XP Pro) for what ever machine they are on as PCI compliance demands that the operating system still be supported. Problem solved.
So you mean to have me believe that even though the end of life of XP has been known for years, and even extended twice. This "Doctor" is so short sighted in planning that they haven't bothered to over the course of the past 5 years to save the $2000 per year or calculate $10,000 divided over 5 years divided over an average of 250 work days per year equals $8 ? And then you want to tell me that this "Doctor" can't find a way to charge that incremental increase in service of $8 per day to their patients ? And you want me to trust this "Doctor" my health ?
No thank you I'll find a Doctor that is running Windows 7 or better yet a Doctor running Linux. I would include OSX but I am not in the market for plastic surgery.
Why would it not do tomorrow what it did yesterday? Disconnect the damn thing from the Internet if you think it can crawl into your computer by itself, or install XP with updates and needed software in a virtual environment and make a backup.
They're probably organized in some way or another already and it's not like they compete on the software they use. Just make sure to keep the requirements low and realistic and that the result is Free or that you own the code.
"I'm not much interested in interoperability. I want substitutability. I want to be able to throw your software out."
TFA was fine, until the writer threw this in:
And you have to remember that medical professionals are already reeling from a huge medical equipment tax courtesy of ObamaCare. One physical therapist told me of 14 medical centers that shut down because they couldn't handle the tax. And that's in Orange County. This area isn't exactly poor.
I call BS. That huge tax is 2.3%. The "14 medical centers" is an offhand rumor that doesn't pass the sniff test. In related news, a number of medical device manufacturers are blaming the device tax for their decisions to move existing and/or new plants overseas.... a tax that falls on all devices, regardless of where they're made. If Mr. Patrizio (or his Network World editor) don't like the PPACA, they can go to town. But, some research would have been nice.
Luke, help me take this mask off
umm remove the default gateway on the XP machines.
load a VM with virtualbox on them with linux that loads straight into a browser, Th VM nic has a default gateway... Free.
She's been using this software for how many years? What's the per-year cost of that $10k spread out? Is it worth that much money to not do whatever she needs with pencil and paper? Is there a less expensive competing product (I'll bet not).
This is one of those "expensive, long interval, periodic maintenance" items. Just like replacing the timing belt at 60k or 80k or 100k miles. It's an expensive thing, you know it's coming, so you either brass up in a big chunk when it comes due, or you budget for it and save up incrementally.
Federal government is here to help.
Do any of you think it would be feasible to start a company that makes FOSS medical software for doctors' offices? I imagine that what an office needs isn't very different from office to office. The company would earn its money long-term providing support for the software. It would also need to be compliant with HIPAA and all other regulations.
There's enough money in continuing support contracts. I'm not sure why they need to sell a net-new product instead of just building update coding costs into the support contract they presumably sell with the software. If they aren't selling any support whatsoever, I'd argue their business model is flawed.
Just turn your windows XP into a virtual machine for each instance of overpriced proprietary data management software that you need. IF it is stored on a local server rather than client side, then it is even better for performance.
Just this year I helped a client save thousands of dollars per year by showing her that a Windows XP VM could run as a window in her Windows 7 OS with full network connectivity and drag and drop support. Instead of paying 2000 per year for license, she upgraded her machines and uses the VM to run her application.
Since there is drag and drop support, you can turn off networking in XP if you are paranoid about viruses and attackers post 2013.
The sibling post made the point about finding replacement parts for when things die. That was always my motivation for a complete system upgrade - something dieing and needing to be replaced without me digging deep enough to find something that would work with the old system.
Buy new machine running Win7/8, install free vmware/virtualbox, run specialist software in VM fullscreen. Done
The problem with the OS is only part of the problem. I use to work for a major hospital and I saw the same problem. It isn't just XP but the hardware has to be certified. If the PC does any analysis it must be certified by the FDA and ?? I can't remember. But the hardware cannot change. If something breaks/wears out it can't simply be replaced by off-the-shelf parts.
So even if the system is off-line, if the hardware starts to fail the $$$ really add up.
I've seen many practice management software package... they all work fine in newer versions of windows.. it's a crock.
Some industrial stuff is still on ISA cards.
It's just that to go to new stuff needs lot's of change to work.
There this other eyetest software that works offline so install XP and don't hook it to the net.
lots of boards with sata run XP and anding the dirver packs to a XP disk is easy.
> With many expecting Microsoft's upcoming end-of-support for XP to cause a security nightmare of unsupported Windows devices in the wild, it seems a good time to ask how many users may fall into the category of wanting an upgrade, but being priced out by expensive but necessary third-party software.
How about the users who don't feel the need to buy a new version just because MS crapped one out?
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
The State of New York has a ton of portals that require IE8 which is horrible with 11 right around the corner. Some of our software internally (again required by the State) costs as much as $250,000. Tax dollars hard at work!
Or is that just what the third-party vendors are telling their customers to try to force an upgrade of their own product?
This type of thing is not just a problem for Medical companies, but also Industrial control companies have issues with this too. Have you ever tried to find a ISA daq card and a Siemens motion controller from the late 80's or early 90s. Finding a P1 is hard, and the P1 is more expansive than an i3 (or even a i7 if you really need it now or want a new one) Updating the software to the latest hardware and software can cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Usually requiring an on site visit to rural China or Germany's industrial heartland (or even worse Detroit) to install the new hardware and wire it in (some control cabinets require more than 10,000 terminations into the daq board). Who bears the cost of supporting the hardware? Is a small industrial automation firm supposed to tell customers that the software is only supported for 2-3 years, but the machine parts can last for 50? Who pays for a new 20 or 30 k software package every two years? Hell I know that my old employer probably pirated a million or more dollars in software just so that we had the ability to continue to support new hardware. If we had paid for both we would never have made it. Forcing people to upgrade on this timescale and with these prices will result in piracy. Big firms forget what its like to not have piles of cash.
Yes.
1). Windows XP mode;
2). Application shims;
3). Med-V;
4). Citrix and/or RDC;
5). OS virtualization via Hyper-V, VMWare, VirtualBox, Xen, Parallels, etc.;
6). Multi-boot solutions (not really recommended these days...).
All of these require some effort to get up and running. None is a perfect solution. However they do provide an option to the expensive application upgrade. And of longer-term relevance, they direct some steady pressure to eventually get the application addressed directly. That's the primary problem here and that is worth keeping an eye upon. Just because you don't want to do the "right" thing now, doesn't mean you should not do the right thing eventually.
I mean the right thing in the technical sense, in case that wasn't completely clear.
In any hospital lab you will see testing equipments running on XP-based computers - and most of those computers do not have the mean to run VM
You can't just chuck out an old computer and install a new one --- it is more than operating system, more than software --- there are a lot more involved, like calibration, like precision measurement, and so on
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Companies which make these specialized software apps are no dummy, if for example they have a version of their software in XP, then, they will make their next version with better features on Win 7.
But in the end, it comes down to this:
Truly, your 'business' PC should be sandbox from all internet activities in a private network.
There is a lot of military critical systems taht are going to have the same problem, jsut like they did when they were forced to migrate from 98 to XP. A lot of them got waivers from the military to kep using 98 as it was cost prohibitive to go to XP. What they should really do is kick WIN to the curb and go open source like Linux, Ubuntu, etc.
Screw MS!
Virtual Box (https://www.virtualbox.org) is free, easy to use, and can be used to virtualize your application under XP, while allowing you to run a modern operating system as your main OS. Backup the virtual machine, and if something should happen to it, you simply restore from backup. If the system is critical, and it sounds like it is in this situation, keep a safe backup of a cleanly installed Operating System with the Application both fully patched, use this source and copy it into virtual box and run from there.
There's always OSCAR, from Canada:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSCAR_McMaster
Under active development, and in widespread use.
A doctor that can't afford $10k should just buy one less yacht.
Get windows 8 Professional, and run xp in the virtual mode. (its also possible with a free download on Windows 7) The os runs as a guest just as vmware, which of course you also could use, its just that the all MS solution is likely easier. Then for the apps that are stuck on XP you have a guest os running XP, but it does not do internet access. (Now if the app runs requires the internet, you may need to play around with things). Or you could run linux and virtualize XP that way. It all depends on what you want to do. Indeed if you have an app that runs only on win3.1 you can download dosbox and run it. (No net access though).
...why most professional/academics/industry folks choose Windows or Mac OS X: its because most (~all) speciality software is developed either for Windows, and sometimes for Mac OS X. It is not available as a package for a Linux distro.
1. Clone said XP machine/hdd to a disk image, make two copies of this image, one for backup
2. Upgrade to newer pc to leverage more power/ram etc for other tasks
3. Install VMware(cost) or Virtualbox(free), use image for new vm
4. Test
5. Test indepth
6. Deploy
Congrats you've migrated and most likely increased overall productivity and saved money on upgrading certain software.
I've had to do this for an ID card machine when we rolled out all win 7.
... let the Dr. drive last year's Mercedes, BMW or Caddy and put some money into the business.
They're stuck with XP.
We're currently making it work with a mix of downgrading OS's to XP, putting a compatible terminal server on the network, and some VMs.
But its entirely stupid. MS could have provided proper backward compatibility for their later OS's. Especially dos emulation is pretty terrible in windows 7 when compared to windows XP.
MS really needs to understand that compatibility and STANDARDS are their real market draw for established and loyal customer base.
MS keeps pissing away opportunities. For example, they could have made their new windows phones competely compatible with windows desktop software. some will say impossible, but I saw someone install windows XP on an android phone so clearly it's possible. I'm not saying those things should literally run windows. But if the android can emulate it well enough to play fallout 2 then MS should have been able to build in some sort of emulation into those phones.
Who wants an MS phone? No one. They have no niche. Imagine if they could run desktop windows software natively though? Bam... instant niche.
MS is stupid. Stop f'ing over your current customers to curry favor with segments of the market that don't even like you. It offends those that actually pay actual money to intentionally buy your productions by choice.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Mostly with the "no net" comments. Basically, there's going to be a workaround that is both legal and costs less than 10k. Be it a virtual machine solution or a BSD box running a well configured firewall that JUST allows appropriate outbound traffic, there's a solution for substantially less than the 10k.
Microsoft can't be expected to support an old product forever. I do suspect that spending a small amount per customer per year could allow this (aka, charge for patches), but I suspect that would generate even more ill will.
XP launched two years before Fedora Core 1. What kind of support for FC1 do you find out there? If someone had written a program that only worked under FC1 and charged you 10k to run under FC13, would you be thinking if Redhat should change its support policy, or maybe you'd be of the opinion that the custom app coder has a pretty fucked up business model?
I think the cessation of XP support will hurt the net as a whole. Microsoft has ludicrous market penetration, after all. But really strange niche cases like this don't really make an argument.
Windows had its time and place and it has now passed. Now the medical community ought to embrace GNU opensource and use this Windows experience as a lesson. Proprietary systems are not there for public benefit.
"SO we bide our time, waiting for a purer kick to bloom and the future is still bleak, uncertain and beautiful" -GSYBE
Compatibility mode?
WINE?
A VM?
Seems to me like there are a lot of different options available.
Software written for medical professionals is not like mass market software. They have a limited market and can't make back their money in volume because there isn't the volume for an eye doctor's database product like there is for Office or Quicken
?!?!
But according to Slashdot, all software wants to be free, with vendors feeding their children via 'services.'
Security guides are available and can be applied by hand if necessary. Don't use or install any other software than the one that needs the old system.
Before I get into that there is an issue many custom programs have to deal with and that is hardware keys, you know those ugly anti piracy plugs that use a USB, serial or parallel port that the software checks to make sure it hasn't been installed on an unauthorized machine. If it's a USB key you may be OK visualizing with VirtualBox not sure about VMWare or QEMU, but if the hardware key is other port you probably won't get it to run in a virtual machine. That said as long as the software in question doesn't really care if it runs on XP or NT it might be possible to try ReactOS.
Some Open Source solutions exist already. See some from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_healthcare_software
She's not heard of a loan?
I used to be
No, it has nothing to do with professionals being penny pinchers.
That's the nature of running a small business. I can guarantee that you and every other dork who's saying, "Why don't they upgrade every year like I do?" or "Why don't they just write their own Linuxth app"? have never run a business. If you did, you wouldn't be saying such myopic garbage. Computer software in any business that's not software (that's 99.99% of all businesses, mind you) is a tool. It's something that enables the business to perform the money making function. A perfectly functioning tool isn't something that's supposed to be replaced every few years for the fun of it. Your business can't operate without doorknobs, but you don't change those every few years just for fun, do you? Your business can't operate with many countless important tools, and most of those don't have to be swapped out every few years, even though they're still working fine. The state of the software industry is so shitty, that regular people still don't believe that it's as rotten as it really is. And let me assure you, the software industry is shit right now. Everything has to be upgraded constantly. All software is released with bugs galore, and it all costs way too much.
Oh, and compared to smaller vendors, Microsoft really isn't all that bad. Most small and midsize software companies that sell specialty business software are really shitty to work with.
This is coming with somebody who was a developer for a decade, and has been a small business owner for the last decade.
I don't respond to AC's.
Windows 7 Professional (and higher comes with an included Windows XP Virtual Machine, fully licensed.
I see no reason why medical records software would not work in a virtual environment.
How about a law requiring that if Microsoft chooses to end support for the Windows XP OS, it MUST publish the source code so that others can? If XP is that arcane (and it is), what do they have to lose, except their monopolistic stranglehold? In general, there OUGHT to be a law that requires any manufacturer to make public all details of, and surrender all rights to, any product for which they no longer wish to provide maintenance and support.
That is, the law should simply equate abandonment of a product with its release into the public domain, rather than allow that product, which millions of people may depend on (and which millions of people may have purchased a license for) to be dumped into a bit bucket out of a callous disregard for the public good, and for anything other than profit.
Come on, Congress, act on behalf of We-The-People for once.
When I was still doing hospital work about 10 years ago, people were still installing NEW systems with OS/2 on there!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Vmware can settle this issue by capturing old windows xp.. So what's the problem.. ??
I wonder if these software could run on Wine ?
Most older programs seem to work really well with wine.
Most of these systems are single purpose and fit in more as an embedded system than anything else.
So, what is the attack vector? Most of the XP exploits in recent memory are related to peoples browsing habits and pieces of the OS used by the browsers being susceptible.
So, the fact that people aren't surfing the web probably removes 99% of the threat, leaving the remaining possibilities of a worm on the internal network exploiting an open system service (network share etc) that could be blocked or disabled.
If an exploit is found in a direct system service like that I'm betting MS rolls out a security patch anyway. Probably, just to avoid the liability issues (same way you get recall notices on 20 year old cars if the problem is severe enough and considered a manufacturing defect).
Its only once the installed base drops below 5% or so would I guess that MS really stops supporting it for critical problems. Once that happens its not going to be a target for new exploits anyway.
I'm just wondering how long it takes before they stop doing activations. I have a copy of XP that has never been activated, I'm keeping around just to see what happens. I suspect they release a no authorization patch at some point but right now if they did it I'm sure XP installs would take off again.
Businesses should be working a lot harder to find alternatives that do not rely on Windows. This compatibility issue will not be going away...because Microsoft does not consider compatibility to be all that important. Windows 8 users are likely to feel pain when Windows 10 comes out...and so on. Often, there are proprietary/OSS alternatives that will accomplish the objective at a reduced cost and with a far better chance of future compatibility. This doctor's office is not the first to have this problem and it will not be the last.
I've worked at places that have expensive by-the-seat software licenses. The software has bugs, and you get to vote --based on how many seats you license-- on which bugs you would like to have fixed in the yearly update. They had issues with Microsoft software in that it wasn't reliable enough for what they needed, but were forced to use because it was what the software ran on. There were also issues with microsoft changing their API's (but that was their problem). When microsoft end-of-lifes its software, people are screwed. Linux end-of-lifes its software too, but you have the source, and have better control over your software. There are reasons why I don't run a business with microsoft software. End-of-life happens, but your options when you get there are very different. Linux also maintains better backwards compatibility. Microsoft's response is: upgrade or die.
funny how you guys talk about the price of 3rd party software being the problem. I can't justify upgrading if I've got to pay $200/$300 for a windows license. It's just not worth it when XP is working fine for the rare case when I need to run a Windows app. Then again, I wouldn't upgrade to Win8 if they offered it for free.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
This should be a non-issue. Any niche, mission critical systems should be isolated and protected from any threats like viruses, worms, etc. already, and NOT placed on the network with free access to the internet, automatically installing Windows updates, etc.
If they are NOT, then you already have far bigger problems than Windows XP going end of life.
What I would do? Isolate host from the network. Take a ghost image. Back up data regularly. If it's not connected to the network, it doesn't really matter a shit whether it is running Windows XP, Windows 98, or whatever.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
"Dream on, eye doctors don't have time to manage and QA an open source project."
They already do... for the software they buy. But the internal QA will be done by the people they hire, just as in the case of the closed product.
"and to think they'd risk money on a multi-year project with uncertain outcome is ridiculous"
Not my problem. But then, they are not entitled for whinning because they have to pay 10.000 for their piece of software. You can't take your cake and eat it too.
The "problem" is on the end of the end-user. They want to not have to upgrade and to recieve security updates in perpetuity, which was never in the deal when they bought XP.
For the record, XP is of the same vintage as Linux 2.4. Its time to upgrade, guys. You probably should have budgeted for this years ago, its not like this is some huge suprise. XP's EOL has overtaken us with the breakneck pace of a glacier.
At the risk of being modded -2, Redundant (as this comment is redundant on Slashdot, even if this point hasn't been made in THIS thread...) why not upgrade to GNU/Linux?
If Microsoft were smart, they would offer extended support for XP on a subscription basis for business users. If they don't want to have to provide support for XP because doing so allows people to continue using it rather than "upgrade" to a more recent version of what, for want of a better word I'll call "software", they could simply declare XP dead, then allow business users to upgrade to XP-SE, (which is the same thing, only unlike XP, it will continue to get updates) and that way, people who depend for business purposes on software that will ONLY run on XP won't be FURTHER PUNISHED for the mistake of buying Microsoft "software". With this solution, Microsoft gets to avoid losing money by having people use their old software and not being willing to pony-up for the same thing over and over again, while not pricing themselves out of the market.
ORRRR... they could simply switch to GNU/Linux. If the software they need is SO OLD that it needs XP, seems to me there's a good chance it will run under WINE just fine. Solved, neh?
I don't want to pay 10.000$ to my doctor... Sometimes you just do.
nosig today
Bad analogy, dude. Software doesn't WEAR OUT, tires do. I understand what you mean that it's a necessary business expense, but the problem is being caused by the fact that Microsoft arbitrarily wants to force people to pay over and over again for the same fucking thing. A goddamned operating system.
MS forcing people to upgrade or use buggy, un-secure, mal-ware prone shitty software, (not that their newer offerings are much better, but at least they pretend they are working to keep it "secure"), is holding businesses hostage so they can make more money they haven't earned and don't deserve.
A better analogy would be that you're a carpenter, and after you hit 10,000 nails with your hammer, the head pops off, simply because the company that made it wants you to pay for something you ALREADY BOUGHT!!! No, you can't put it back together, and they have spent years making sure that the manufacturer of every nail and every plank made them so that you could ONLY NAIL THEM TOGETHER USING MICROSOFT'S hammers, which, oh, by the way, periodically turn blue, and suddenly the handle gets all floppy, and you have to put it back in your tool-bag, wait 5 minutes, and pull it back out to be able to go on using it.
When it does this, by the way, if you were nailing two things together, but didn't finish, they'll come apart as if you'd never nailed them.
The irony is that people are handing out better hammers for FREE, and people don't want them, preferring to pay for Microsoft's piece of shit hammers, because they're prettier, the handles are more ergonomic, and comfortable to hold, and they have done a fantastic job making sure NO ONE can use any other kind of hammer.
Fuckers.
When you say that not being able to afford it is not an excuse, remember that the CUSTOMER pays for the upgrade, in the form of higher costs for whatever the business is selling or offering. That means that your kid's fillings are going to cost $180 each, instead of $120. X-rays will cost more, everything will be more expensive. If they can't push the cost on to the customer, the business must either eat it, or not pay for the upgrade. That means using increasingly buggy, mal-ware vulnerable software, pirating a copy of 7 (or if you're a masochist, 8).
ORRRR... they could simply switch to GNU/Linux. If the software they need is SO OLD that it needs XP, seems to me there's a good chance it will run under WINE just fine.
This is Slashdot, so you shouldn't be surprised that any solution to virtually any problem will eventually come back around to FLOSS software.
I am blind in my right eye due to a separated retina, and have poor vision in my left eye...all from diabetes. I used a program called ZoomText on XP, both at work and at home, until it stopped working after XP was updated. ZoomText charges it's users for every update. I couldn't afford the update, so I just stopped using it. The program was originally paid for by a local agency for blind folks, which is the only way I would have been able to use it due to the expense. But it's useless now that it's out of date. These companies really shouldn't charge for updates. If the original program was paid for in full, updates should come free of charge IMHO. Thankfully I've found work-arounds for most situations where I need to zoom up the text on the screen. All of the browsers have zoom functions that are easily accessible, which is a great thing for people like me. MS Office Suite apps also have zoom functions. So, in the end I'm ok....but I still have problems viewing the operating system. At lower resolutions I end up having to scroll for miles just to get to something...and certain apps open windows that do not adjust for lower resolutions, and I end up with fields and buttons I can't get to because there are no scroll bars at all. Meh. Whatever. At my age I've learned that money rules the world, and companies will mostly only do things if it's profitable. I find ways around challenges most of the time.
For many cases like this, gathering the user community to all pitch in for a free software project that meet their specific demands can produce great results and be very affordable in both startup and continued development cost. A lot of universities all over the world employ this method with great success for government agencies, I'm sure even private healthcare could work something out with universities, in particular if the university is already engaged in both medical and computer science education. (just put the two together, make it part of the students academic work)
Even if your university isn't interrested in helping out many competitors in the same industry do get together to work out this type of cost spreading amongst themselves and reduce development cost by not requiring a profit from the project.
Slap a MIT/zlib/GPL license on it and make it portable so the problem of vendor lockins and costly one-off upgrades are gone and you all own what you invested in.
It's not easy to get projects like this rolling, but you can either work hard for such a project or work hard to pay for overpriced software from all the vendors who are looking to dig deep into your wallet to produce the quarterly reports share holders are looking for.
I'm an end user, and I can't afford Windows 7 (well, I would need Ultimate, and I find it hard to justify the purchase). Even more than that, I REALLY dislike the path Microsoft has taken the last couple generations. They've abandoned me... so I jumped to Linux, and love it - well aside from the complete inability to Skype properly. In the near future when I start my business, I'm going to make sure everything internal is Linux-based too.
Another reason to ditch away closed source in favor of open alternatives. Maybe $10.000 would be a good start to pay a coder to release an entirely open source one.
How much do coders earn where YOU live?
Corollary question: how fast do you think YOU could produce a polished, secure, reliable, scalable solution? For the office just to TELL YOU what they need might take days, or they could just give you the manual for what they're using now, and you can spend weeks or months reading it, then analyzing it and try to work out JUST THE BASICS of how what you'd need to code would work. If you make $60,000/year, which is a pittance for a good programmer, that gives you two months to go from having never heard of the company and not knowing what they do, what they're software does, what they need the replacement to do, (and perhaps what they wish it could do that they're current software doesn't or at least doesn't do well,) or how exactly to go about doing it.
Then you have to formulate the approach, and start typing code. Type code for the entire application that does as a minimum, ALL THE THINGS THEIR OLD SOFTWARE DID, then compile it. There's a whole cycle of code, compile, (or try to,) debug, recompile... rinse and repeat.
When you finally get it to compile, then you go into alpha testing... to say nothing of beta, etc. Also, who will maintain it, hmm?
You think even ONE person can do this, not out of the goodness of his heart, but for MONEY, for LESS, I repeat, L E S S ! ? ! ? than $10,000? Nothing personal, but are you high, or just ignorant? If you hire two people, they'd have to do it twice as fast, or work for less. Hire a company? Hahahhahaha...
Switching to GNU/Linux might save them money, and I'd endorse the idea, but they'd have to find a way either to run their old software, i.e., under WINE, or use other software, such as existing FLOSS software. Otherwise, if they can't afford to upgrade, they sure can't afford to hire someone to re-write the mission-critical software that runs the information side of their business FROM SCRATCH! Am I wrong? Do people code much faster than I think?
OR WERE YOU VOLUNTEERING?
The issue the poster noticed really rang a familiar tune with me. Not too long ago a local Optometrist asked me to come in to consult on this very problem. This particular Doctor was finding it difficult to upgrade as most of his Optometric equipment and the proprietary image viewers associated with the equipment required Windows XP. From the information he gave me, most of his equipment ranged anywhere from $50k all the way up to $400k. When looking into a Visual Field, I noticed they built in obsolescence. The machine was old, needed to be replaced, but in doing that, he would be forced to upgrade Windows. Upgrading windows however would also break functionality with other optometric equipment within his office. If he could buy all new modern equipment that may solve the problem. However purchasing a completely new set of instruments across the board would require far more than they could afford. With the advent of EMR's there is significant pressure to capture all data and populate the EMR. This seems to compound the issue the Doctor was having as every piece of equipment required something different in terms of which OS he must use. It is a difficult problem in smaller private offices that do not have as much purchasing power. In my experience I would encourage those facing similar problems to push the manufacturer for the necessary upgrades for their products. When purchasing a $400k retinal camera the manufacturer doesn't see a Windows license and server as a deal breaker. If older equipment won't integrate with a newer version then keep what is in place with an adjusted plan to replace the equipment itself. We decided to take on the task of integrating everything and ended up with a re marketable product that fills those gaps. This is my first /. post so I know better than to make a shameless plug for something I've built..
Either way there are many solutions out there for extending the life of a practice with high dollar equipment that grows obsolete. So this is my encouragement to the poster to just dig in and look hard.
WTF are the mods doing??? You are supposed to mod up INTERESTING (and ON TOPIC) posts. You $%&? mod up HALF THE POSTS!!!
I just spent all my mod points on down-voting - useless, I'm Don Quixote.
trash windows 8, keep xp
nobody will complain.... NOBODY.
Microsoft bought and released what they wanted, the full product Connectix and Innotek GmbH made was better. After Innotek were purchased by Sun/Oracle they continued their work as "VirtualBox". I would probably go with that.
Um... are there meds for this?
Whole reason I bought W7 Pro was the XP compatibility mode, which was just a virtualized version of XP running in W7.
Did MS dump this option?
2 out of 672, not including this one. 0.3%
I predict the percentage of ReactOS comments on articles about Windows XP to TRIPLE by this time next year!
If this is about a doctor in the US or Western Europe - then what is she complaining about? Ask her what she spend last year on the medical equipment in her lab. I bet it is a multitude of the software cost that she "can't afford". Most of these doctors pay more for the equipment in their lab than most of us for our house. In fact, if she really can't afford to shell out once in a decade 10.000 $ - then I'd suggest she chooses a different profession, and you better choose a different doctor.
Upgrade PC Hardware, Install Windows of your choice (7,8), install VirtualBox, install Win XP virtual machine, install 10k software into that Virtual Machine.
Now all she has to do is setup the firewall, lockdown the virtual machine so that only that expensive software could access the internet, and thats it. All the benefits, total security, and no problems. She could use the internet from the main Win 7 interface, or use Virtual XP when she needs to use the software.
1) If the software isn't strictly limited to software but interfaces with some medical hardware or fancy shit't you don't want to mess around. Go directly to 3)
2) Virtualize. Chances are it will work out of the box. Then you can enjoy the benefits of new hardware and a new OS and still use your old software.
3) Maybe you don't actually need an upgrade. There's no benefit of running your old software on a new OS, the only benefits will be peripheral. Just have a seperate machine running whatever new stuff you like and keep the legacy hardware for your mission-critical legacy software.
4) If you still want an upgrade it's more of an issue of wanting to upgrade you specialty software and hardware, which of course can be expensive. In this case you need medical consulting rather than just plain IT consulting. Maybe there's a cheaper solution available.
Windows 7 32bit can run XP and even 2000 drivers happily, I've done that on an old computer for a network card and graphics card. Dunno if it would have helped in the article's story but just running the XP driver on 7 can be a way out.
Works acceptably well so far. Old isn't always terrible.
Background. Wife works as a distribution manager for a small indie publisher. Her job is mostly converting e-books to different formats and uploading them to the online sellers databases. To upload e-books to the Itunes store she has to use a program called IProducer. One day, Iproducer just stopped working when trying to upload to ITunes. Turns out Apple had started blocking access for any copy of IProducer that was too "old". Fine, it is a business need, upgrade IProducer, ooopsss. New version of IProducer won't install on the current OS version. Fine, business need, pay for new OS, then pay for new IProducer, then can sell on ITunes. Pretty neat setup when you think about it. There was nothing wrong with the old version of the Iproducer program, they just shut if off to force people to buy the new OS.
AFAIK, the XP software licensing isn't bound to a certain piece of hardware. Why not buy the new hardware and then re-install XP and the medical software on the new machine? :-0
wrt security, does the machine with the software really need to be connected to the internet?
I'm more concerned about what happens when the next version of TurboTax won't run on XP.
I wonder how much the cost of this is because of liability issues. Somewhere deep in the recesses of the XP license that you clicked through without reading was some lawyerese telling you not to use this software for planes in flight, operating nuclear power plants etc. Basically the sort of stuff where the "Blue screen of death" might get microsoft sued for wrongful death. Which could certainly happen in medical software, if, for instance it failed to note allergies to medication.
As for textbooks, the economies of scale were definitely important when I was in college. (early 80s) The freshman Calculus text, with many pages, lots of illustrations, and plenty of complicated equations to typeset cost much more than my 300 level algebra text, which had a fraction of the number of pages, almost no illustrations, and most of the proofs were written out in paragraph form. But the market for the latter was a fraction of the size of the former.
Users of older software have three choices:
Live with limitations of older software
Pay for upgraded/up-to-date software
Replace computer system with manual process
How many years did they run the current software they have & what did they pay for that? How many years will they run the new software for their $10K investment?
If they are happy with the current software and their systems are not on the internet, there is no real need for security updates (as many others have noted).
They have apparently chosen to not pay for annual support (since that typically has the benefit of allowing the user to run the latest software release), how much have they saved? Is it enough to pay for the current release of the software?
The only thing they are a victim of is their decision to let the software support lapse...
Ken
He could have told her ALL about Windows XP mode for Windows 7, allowing her to upgrade to Win 7, while keeping her XP-Only app running like normal...
An eye doctor can't afford the software?
This is a BS statement.
First, if you run a business then you need to include in your expenses the cost of upgrading software, all software eventually expires. Too often companies have gotten into this trend of buying software once and assuming it will last them for decades. Buying into software 10 years ago is not a valid reason to not upgrade today.
Second, NO software will run only on Windows XP, sorry. In all likelihood there is absolutely no reason why the software will not run on Windows 8, except that some schmuck somewhere decided to check the OS version number when the app runs and then exit because of some wrong assumption that software can only run on specific OS versions. Also Microsoft offers virtual machines in Windows 8 that can let you run some legacy app that was poorly designed in the first place.
Bottom line though is, if you run a business, take responsibility and realize software is not a one time investment. Chances are that any new version of software this doctor could buy might be light years ahead of what they are using, but they are too lazy or ignorant to recognize the potential upgrading could offer them and instead refuse invest any more money.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
I was at my pet's Vet last year, and he still had green/black 2 color Wyse terminals. I asked him why he hadn't updated to a modern system and he said that to have his database migrated and computers in each of his 6 diagnosis rooms would cost him a quarter million dollars.
I agree with the poster that this is an interesting situation these professionals end up in.
Really? What utter nonsense. Not only can they afford it, they can also write off a large portion of the cost on taxes. This is just more evidence of the resistance of the practicing medical profession (not the research side) to taking up and keeping abreast of technology.
Interesting aside: Medical research is currently centred around controlled studies. Imagine the possibilities if medical research could access the potential data of 100's of millions of day-to-day patient doctor interactions. "Potential data" because currently medical practioners seemingly overwhelmingly refuse to make any progress in data collection.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
There is something called Windows XP mode which might work. They can then run Windows 7 on the computer with a Windows XP mode application.
Surprised no one has suggested it. Most Xp software should work fine on WINE by now. Not all -- but a database or billing program? Those should be fine.
It seems the default stance is that Windows 7 is better than Windows XP in every way, so if there is a better/newer version of the software, why not just buy it?!
Welp, that isn't always the case. Now, this medical software example might not be a good one, but in general WinXP has a lot less DPC latency than Win7. This matters a great deal for audio applications and several professionals stick with XP for that reason. It's the best tool for the job. If you believe that the operating system only exists to host the software you need to run, then it isn't a stretch to understand why these offices don't upgrade. Not everybody has the I.T. mindset we have.
On a personal note, I built a MAME arcade box that boots directly into my preferred MAME front-end, bypassing Explorer. I also changed the boot slash screen to make it as "appliance" like as possible. This was easy to do in XP. Not so in Win7.
ReactOS is an XP compatible operating system. Free and open source.
Is there something preventing the users from obtaining a different machine with Windows 7 installed, setting up a VM with XP on it, and then transferring their software (and data) to the VM? I realize this is less than ideal (lots of hassle, and may not be possible if installing on the new VM is equivalent to needing a new license, would require opening the VM each time you want to use that particular software), but it could be a solution (even if inelegant).
Regardless of whether or not it is printed on paper or simply stored as magnetic bits, should not the authors of such works be rewarded for their efforts?
I'll answer your question once you can complete the thought: Rewarded by whom? And for how long? I ask for clarification because the answers to these questions help determine on what conditions someone can reasonably expect to have a course of study made available without charge.
Most of the posts here are not helpful. They appear to be by quite a few people who are trying too hard to be "cute" and not provide any real information. I have had quite a few years with this "EXACT" problem. The issues does not appear to be with the operating system as much as the people supporting the "cheap / inexpensive" applications. as a matter of fact in the last 10 or 12 Medical offices that I have installed, the software manufacturer either TOLD/WROTE or tried to write install scripts that would only work with XP. It turns out not only did the applications work fine, they even worked faster. The main issue is that the support staff did not realize applications install differeently on Networks and Windows 7 from how Windows XP stand alone machines install. Once you are able to explain that the application data lives in "XYZ" location rather than the local user, it is simple to repoint the application hard coded environmental variables. Most, if not all, of the software manufactuerers that "mandate Windows XP" are excited and truly appreciative of real documentation that shows how to install their application successfully in a new OS environment. Tigerview (for instance) - just purchased by Televere Systems - mandated for years that it would only work on XP. Before purchase they were completing work on the documentation based on what was taught to them over the phone and what documentation was sent to them. It helps if the posting people are trying to be helpful and not just "cute".
She showed me some of it and said one of the Dr.'s had developed it. It was written in MS Access. It may not be a first choice for many Slashdotters but most are familiar with it. At the time it had plenty of capability for handling the data in a small network like that of a Dr.'s office. And it did the job. Apparently, one of the Dr.'s was pretty computer and programming savy.
I then asked why they had developed their own and not used one of the packages that must be on the market. She said they had tried. The sales rep said the cost was about 90K+ and the upkeep was about 70K after that. Then he said the software was good and a great deal because they would get their money back through increased efficiency in the first year (no figures to prove it though). After the presentation, the medical staff were all shaking their heads. How would they get back 70K per year. . . not to mention the original 90K+? They had other expensive equipment to get too! So one of the Dr.'s, who apparently had experience programming and working databases, took a brief leave of absence and developed a database that worked for their needs. I doubt it took more than three weeks actual work time to develop what I saw. How much money do you think they are they saving now!?
The point is that databases developed by a large medical specialty software company may not be the end-all solution for the needs of small businesses in medicine. Some of you guys with good computer skills and savy in putting together what the customer wants could put something together for a better price. Think of it this way: some of these specialty software companies are BEGGING for good competition. :-)
Most comapnies can only afford to support the two most recent/ppoular releases.
I still use Windows 2000 SP 4 behind a firewall and no anti-virus programs with no problems. At one point I had it online for three years. I only use it for business. The programs I use work just fine. When I can't find hardware for it anymore, I'll set it up in a virtual machine on a linux host.
the cloud
*duck*
And who sets this all up for the doctor or dentist, and how much are they going to charge, and what is the maintenance charge to make sure it keeps working and the person who set it up is available to fix it in a day's time if necessary?
I set up and maintain an entire office network for a dentist and since I need some major dental work, he fixes my teeth and I keep his computers and network going. Win-Win for the both of us.
Windows Virtual PC.
Works great. We have XP only apps, so I run them with windows XP Mode in the windows virtual PC. easy to set up.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
An EULA is an EULA. Regardless of license, you can provide any EULA you like with your software. On big projects that I do the majority of development on I will offer an EULA other than the standard "not fit for any particular purpose and you deal with any problems". This let's the customer know that you stand behind your work. It is not used in most FOSS software because most FOSS software is not designed to be sold and supported.
Anyone who doubts the security of Linux should just look at Android, and how secure and untouched by malware it is... oh wait.
Android sandboxing is good enough that most notable malware is designed to steal money from cellular subscribers through premium SMS. This means devices without a cellular radio or without an SMS subscription, such as tablets, aren't quite as vulnerable. In practice, the biggest hole I can see is that the SD card privilege is too coarse grained; it should have been based on a secure file chooser the way file system access is in OLPC Bitfrost and in the Mac App Store sandbox.
A properly locked down and patched Windows machine
The problem is that because new user accounts on Windows XP were created with administrator privileges, applications ended up relying on administrator privileges, making it difficult to run Windows XP "properly locked down". The UAC alerts in Windows Vista were designed primarily to fix this. As for "patched", the whole article is about the fact that that'll end in a year.
But what you would have us do?
Install two browsers. Run the stuff that needs FDA approval and IE 7 in IE 7 and the stuff that needs a modern browser in a modern browser. Plan migration to a competitor's FDA-approved, Windows 7/8-compatible product by the time Windows XP leaves extended support, and let "the company that writes the activex control (GE)" know of your plans.
In all seriousness, when I upgrade to new versions of Mac OS, while I notice there are new features added, I feel that the overall core of the OS has not changed that drastically as compared to when MS rolls out a new version of windows. I still use Windows XP in my working environment because of legacy software issues. I would like to upgrade to seven but the software will not run on seven.
MacOS had me thinking. I would be willing to pay microsoft at least $100 for them to roll out another service pack for XP every 18 months. This would counteract the disastrous windows 8 mess and keep many business users happy. IMHO, you can't market a product with wide user base for 11 years and then drastically change it up and expect users to follow. We saw this with Vista. We are seeing this with Windows 8.
Linux + Wine
Much better solution then both Windows XP and 7 in most cases of application software.
This is a huge opportunity to expand the Linux platform. ID maybe a half dozen of these verticals and throw serious money at getting workable alternatives up and running on Linux. You could migrate entire industries to Linux in the next 12-24 months.
As for a business model, once these guys are on your platform there are plenty of ways to extract rent.
Isn't there outfits out there who would helpe these people who are stuck with obsoletely hardware/software? Who would support XP based products due to their hardware being tied into it that affordable? Depending on the state their in (country?) regulations may tell them they need migrate eventually, but if they don't. It could be descent business supporting these legacy machine holders despite obsoletion factor from XP.
OK, you're stuck with XP after April 2014 because your specialized software only supports XP. And upgrades/replacements are unavailable or cost-prohibitive. What do you do?
* Make sure the system is patched completely.
* Have an up-to-date and working anti-virus on the system.
* Remove any and all extraneous software. Run only the software you absolutely need to run. Don't run other software, especially web browsers or mail clients on the system. Consider the computer now an appliance only for your specialized software. Remove Java, Flash, Acrobat, Air, Office, Shockwave, Silverlight, and any other likely attack vectors.
* Remove any unneeded Windows components (games, Messenger, etc.)
* Disable Internet Explorer (http://pcsupport.about.com/od/browsers/ht/disableiedef.htm)
* It's not always an option, but see if you can run the the software in a non-administrator account. If needed, change the properties on the shortcut to the software so just it, and only it, run in admin mode.
* Have an image backup of the system -- it's likely to break at some point. And since the software involved may not be supported anymore, getting it reinstalled may be difficult. (Even better, install an external hard drive and a copy of Acronis TrueImage or Macrium Reflect and schedule image backups once a week or so.)
* Consider moving the XP system to a virtualized system. That way the system will likely be faster (newer hardware) and can still be used for both general computing (web browsing, emails, Word, etc.) in Windows 7 or 8, and then XP for only your specialized software. And if the XP system is virtualized, backing it up is dirt simple -- just make a copy of the virtual machine files. Windows 7 Pro/Enterprise/Ultimate's XP Mode is good, but note that VMWare Player and Virtual Box have better performance, are easier to administer, and have better access to external hardware. You'll probably be better off using Player or Virtualbox if you can. If the system is virtualized, it's also extremely simple to clone it and roll it out to multiple systems. (Caveat: virtualization generally won't work if your specialized software needs access to serial, parallel, or usb to reach an external device, copy protection dongle, etc.)
* Firewall the system so only the the necessities can pass through. Probably file transfers out, but not in. Or only in from specific IPs (your servers). Lock out common ports (22, 23, 80, 443, etc.) -- you don't need them anymore. If needed, only allow the ports to connect to specific destinations, and not everywhere.
* Allow the antivirus to update, but turn off Windows Update -- it's not going to get anything new anyway.
* Disable any other unnecessary services.
* Look towards any other ways to lock the system down.
So it's all doable. And you can make the system (mostly) secure. But plan on it failing anyway. It's going to be fragile and vulnerable. Reduce your vulnerabilities as much as possible. And don't plan on using the XP system for anything but what is absolutely necessary.
Good luck...
The problem is that the business owner has failed to minimise the impact of the withdrawl of XP support. Fact is, every business has expenses and hardware, software and equipment is part of that. Unfortunately business owners have the mentality that perceives IT as a cost. It makes this faster, automates etc. but its still just a cost. If the system is so vitally important to the running of the business then the business should make provision well in advance and deciding whether it was worth upgrading the existing infrastructure or porting to something else, cheaper. ... So she'll be saddled with the cost of a new PC, new version of Windows (with indeterminable expiry date), VMWare and have all that lovely kit to run an XP VM with software that may or may not reliably connect to the Internet.
I can't imagine the VMWare license is free
Ochams Razor?
I think not.
Some of the specialty real estate software that I've dealt with cost more than that for upgrades. Ouch! *
You can continue to purchase refurbished equipment running Windows XP Pro for a while anyhow. www.TKOEDucation.com provides a terrific resource for K-12s and non-profits alike, but those same computers - with a 5yr parts replacement warranty and Toll Free Tech Support included - can be purchased with XP PRO legally pre-installed while the OS is still available. Although TKOED markets to K-12s, the equipment is available to end-users and small businesses for the same terrific pricing that is available to schools.
It was a small Bay Area pharmacy that used Rx30, which ran on NT.
Mainstream support for Windows OS usually lasts about two years after the next major version (e.g. XP to Vista to 7 to 8) is out, and extended support (mostly security updates) lasts for five years after that. (Source: Google windows lifecycle site:microsoft.com)
Some businesses still use punch cards or button-operated mainframes for doing core work such as accounting
no joke
I still regularly see DOS 5 boxes in industrial settings. Whether they're running some old code to run a machine or receive dial up calls from grocery stores or 1990 hand held DOS machines taking inventory it's normal to stay with working tech until you absolutely cant.
As a side note she just needs to install Virtual Box or MS Virtual Machine then just run the old app under that. Virtualization concepts make it even easier to run old systems so this will not be an issue going forward. Poster just doesn't have any real world experience in computer systems and thinks everyone forks out money to MS for every upgrade.
Could some of this software run on a Linux system using CrossOver or Wine? If so, that seems the perfect long temporary solution (temporary until they find and implement a native Linux solution).
Afford is the issue.
Physicians are not rich.
They work 11 months for overhead costs and the last month is their salary.
Everyone who has posted about up front costs, maintenance, sustainability is correct.
Computers in health care are right now costing more than they save.
Nothing is standardized.
Imagine driving in a country where for two blocks you could drive on the right, then the next mile on the left and a stop sign meant its OK to go and by the way in this car your accelerator is on the floor but in this car it is on the steering handle whicl is also the shift. Oh by the way there is no training on how to drive, unless you pay thousands of dollars.
It will be one hundred years before IT is standardized sufficiently to be useful to a typical user in a professional office.
Calculate the combination of settings that an individual user can set in Microsoft Word. It is more than the number of people on earth.
You IT guys are great at advice but you live with your computers.
The rest of us just want them to work.
These people don't write these things to standards. That's the whole problem. If they did it'd already just work under Windows 7 and wouldn't need virtualising.
That works as long as the standard itself remains supported. The standard for device drivers changed between Windows XP and Windows Vista, and Windows 7 uses Windows Vista's driver model.
Netbeui to talk to the cnc machines?
Would be nice for it to work with Win 7.
FortyTwoTenfold lists Jeremiah Cornelius as "friend" in his account = he's a sockpuppet/alternate registered 'luser' account that JC uses is what. This is obvious.
If you go into the lab world, it is unlikely that your trash can a lab instrument just because the operating system is no longer supported. The instrument vendor, always looking at their own bottom line, will, more often than not, want you to buy a new ($100K+) instrument. Of our core analytical instruments, (say 16 PC's) only one is running Windows 7 (don't get me started on Windows 8). Most are XP (very stable platform) but a few are Windows 2000 machines.
I was a project manager for installing a system for a large multinational chemical corporation. That installation (hardware and software) had to be FDA"Validated" This is not like engineering validation, it means every entry has to be demonstrated to work properly. Just starting with a user log in. You start with a valid name and PW. Print the input and print the output. Use a valid name plus an extra character and a valid PW. print the input and out put screens. Repeat for the PW with an extra character. Print input and output, Repeat with an extra character for both and print the screens. Repeat the above minus a character. IE, name, PW, and both Now do it with blank fields. You have to do this for every entry possible in the system. We started with a stack of printouts for the entries. When we finished we had a stack well over 4 feet tall and a second stack 2 or 3 feet tall. All hardware had to be traceable and proven on a monthly basis. If a router were changed it had to have a paper trail. It probably ran over half a million for the implementation including FDA Validation and that was in addition to the quarter million for the software. Security is also a nightmare. FDA regulations on the data handling pretty much doubled the cost of the system. Most of the end user systems like this dentist had are relatively simple and straight forward to write. You create a set of generic screens which can be tailored for most professions, but any time a change is made the whole works has to be proven to satisfy the FDA again. It's basically creating a set of custom screens tailored to the profession although the data should be encrypted, with integrity and security guaranteed. IOW Medical software that is FDA compliant is a royal PITA. It's no wonder it's so expensive.
Let's spend 10,000$ in consulting fees to fix this, as opposed to purchasing the update to the software! Yay! Either a VM does it for you, or you figure out how to pay for what you need for your business. You pay for a lot of things, software should be in that list. Really tired of this BS from people who earn shitloads of money (that's you, dear Slashdot reader) and are unwilling of paying for software. And the eye doctor can pay 10,000$, or she is no real eye doctor - I pay 600$ every time I go to those vampires. 20 visits, and she has paid for the software.
They should have moved onto a time-limited licensing revenue base years ago, if not decades ago. As it stands, they only get one fee from the customer, but if they're on a yearly (or better, monthly) license, enforced by software or hardware as appropriate, then they'd have recovered many times the original license fee from the customer. And they'd have been able to enforce upgrading too - every time the customer re-licenses, they establish a new contract, including new terms. People pretty rapidly stop reading the release notes, so you'd be able to insert the mandatory upgrade notices into them years in advance of their implementation.
It's not ALL about revenue from the software rental (as opposed to software sales) income stream being good for the developing company. Often it's good for the customer, as these rental fees are normally a tax-deductible expense, which can offset a lot of other income.
What? That's not the problem? But this is Slashdot, home of software coders and support nerds. What is not to like about regular (and eventually larger) revenue streams coupled with the knowledge that customers who don't carry out upgrades to your cycle don't need to be supported?
(Please check the calibration on your sarcasm detector ; it should be reading 50%.)
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
why are not eye doctors using Linux instead, and perhaps running these software on Wine? and better, why these software still doesn't exist alternatives as software libre? (with GPL licencing and alike, which doctors would afford $0.00 instead of $10.000)
Why not let them eat cake?
no, software companies that write medical software QA products in their QA Departments, I've worked at a few. the doctor does no such thing. you think they keep a regression test suite in the file cabinet next to the lens kits?
Who in the Open Source community will pay to get the 'ware FDA-certified as compliant with the requirements of the PPACA?
There is nothing wrong with yr Internet. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling the transmission - NSA
Once again we see the hidden disaster which is: creating *your database* in a *proprietary format*.
I learned that over and over until I quit doing it. OS and companies come and go at a fierce rate. A database needs to kept in the only format that is guaranteed to remain universally supported. Anything which doesn't support that is self-serving (not customer-serving) poison. EOL
"You must try to forget all you have learned. You must begin to dream." -- Sherwood Anderson
As an employee of a medical device company 2.3% of our income is huge. Its almost our entire R&D fund (3.0% currently).
With industry average gross profit margins around 65% and operating margins around 14%, I believe there are funds available to cover the tax.
Luke, help me take this mask off
Buying software for small companies (eye doctors, chiropractors, etc.) doesn't make sense - especially now that the US gov't is changing electronic records policies/requirements.
All those practices are being encouraged to upgrade now with incentives - as long as they upgrade to a certified platform.
But with the gov't's certification level rising year after year, why would anyone *buy* software each year? (most practices don't upgrade their installed software every 5 years, right?) Especially now that some vendors are doing even more lock-in/refusing access to your own data, it requires installing and upgrading your own PCs and server(s) - hardware and Windows versions and databases and...
Use an online SaaS. Granted, there is only one working solution out there right now for eye care specialists (www.revolutionehr.com), but it works on modern browsers, integrates with several brands of optometrist equipment, has billing, email, inventory, scheduling... most of what you need. And not only do they help with importing your data, they'll also help you export it if you decide it's not for you.
(disclaimer: former dev)
8-PP
Software as a service. That is all.
I won't apologize for the fact that I hate Vista and everything that has come after it.
Expensive medical software... If you're in the medical field that requires expensive software you should be making enough money to afford that software unless you suck or someone is pocketing more money than they should.
"no, software companies that write medical software QA products in their QA Departments"
That explains why no medical software had ever a single bug when on the while... oh, wait!
Anyway, that was not my point. Regarding internal (usually white box) QA, what would be the difference if instead of looking for customers after the fact they reached an agreement with a medical association before start working?
Have her take vacation to S.E. Asia, Taiwan,China, Philippines, Malaysia, go check out local Computer sellers (don't forget to take your software disk)....find a real bright guy, he'll figure where what you need exists and knock off a copy. Hell where I live, whatever MSN software STUFF YOU NEED....$3 -$4.00 per disc.
this is simply piss poor planning on behalf of the office staff and IT. Everything an office purchases to run the business needs to be depreciated, planned for maintenance and overhauled. It sounds like this person rather enjoyed the inflated profits instead of putting aside money to upgrade. It's not like Microsoft said, tomorrow you'll have to migrate, this has been known for a decade now. they just kept stringing the non migrators along.
I am using Windows XP. I am a senior citizen on a pension.But I am also disabled and living in a Nursing Home.With those expenses I cannot afford to up grade or even buy another computer.I wish there was some sort of support even limited in some way. So I at least will not be one of those unfortunate folks left out in the cold.