Slashdot Mirror
Satanists Propose Monument At Oklahoma State Capitol Next To Ten Commandments
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "The Tulsa World reports that in their zeal to tout their faith in the public square, conservatives in Oklahoma may have unwittingly opened the door to a wide range of religious groups, including satanists who are now seeking to put their own statue next to a Ten Commandments monument on the Statehouse steps. The Republican-controlled Legislature in Oklahoma authorized the privately funded Ten Commandments monument in 2009, and it was placed on the Capitol grounds last year despite criticism from legal experts who questioned its constitutionality. But the New York-based Satanic Temple saw an opportunity and notified the state's Capitol Preservation Commission that it wants to donate a monument too. 'We believe that all monuments should be in good taste and consistent with community standards,' Lucien Greaves wrote in letter to state officials. 'Our proposed monument, as an homage to the historic/literary Satan, will certainly abide by these guidelines.' Brady Henderson, legal director for ACLU Oklahoma, said if state officials allow one type of religious expression, they must allow alternative forms of expression, although he said a better solution might be to allow none at all on state property. 'We would prefer to see Oklahoma's government officials work to faithfully serve our communities and improve the lives of Oklahomans instead of erecting granite monuments to show us all how righteous they are,' says Henderson. 'But if the Ten Commandments, with its overtly Christian message, is allowed to stay at the Capitol, the Satanic Temple's proposed monument cannot be rejected because of its different religious viewpoint.'"
If you think atheists drive evangelical conservatives nuts, you ain't seen nothing yet.
Table-ized A.I.
The keydifference between the statue of the ten commandments and the statue of the satanist is that the statue of the satanist is offensive.
This is why the statue of the satanist should not be allowed.
Please?
I thought they were overtly Jewish...
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
I have trouble believing they are really Satanists, rather than people claiming to be Satanists.
Oh wait, that's true of most Christians too.
"Twice half-assed makes an ass whole." --Solomon K. Chang
hail satan!
This is why we need a clean separation of church and state. And yeah, the evangelical in OK are going to go nuts once they realize that they MUST allow this garbage.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Will be blamed for this by republicans, I guarantee it.
I for one welcome this monument. Tolerance and acceptance of those with whom we might disagree has been a principle in our country for many years. I hope that the courage shown in the original decision continues to be the guiding light by which all future decisions are based against.
I like the ACLU's stance here. If everyone is not free, than nobody is free.
The Ten Commandments has historical significance but anything associated with any other religion does not.
Yes, I am the pope of that Church.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Hopefully Tim Curry will agree to model for the statue...
http://www.northhollyhood.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/tim-curry-legend-2.jpg
I think that the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster should get involved with this as well. I would donate to a Pastafarianism monument.
Jews did WTC
The 10 commandments are of jewish origin, and are respected by muslims as well, since they are included in the quran. They didn't come from Jesus, so the 'overtly Christian message' comment just seems to be way off the mark and most importantly, it is technically incorrect.
While governments shouldn't really get involved at all, with religions, because it will exhibit some favouritism, amongst a plethora of other reasons, the satanists in this instance just appear to be sectarians who desperately hate christians. I guess by being motivated by hate, they do display that they're practicing satanists, rather than just regular bigotry and intolerance present in religions.
Look it up.
Hail Satan!
Lest ye forget....
God bless those Satanists
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Viva the pastafarians, viva the giant spaghetti monster!
This needs to happen.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
The 10 Commandments are a basis of many of our laws, and since the capital grounds are where laws are made it can (and has been) argued successfully that they serve a historical/legal purpose. Put up a copy of the code of Hamarrabi (sp?) and some quotes from Locke, etc, then make the standard "must have historical legal significance" and the problem goes away.
More like overtly Jewish. You know, from those same Oklahomans that avoid eating pork and invertebrates, shaving the corners of their head, operating electrical machines on the sabbath, and wearing blended clothes.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
Satanism and good taste do not fit in the same sentence and oxymoronic. If satanism believes all gods are just from an inventive mind then why choose "Satan" a fallen angel as you monicker? You have fallen into your own "perceived" trap.
My karma is not a Chameleon.
I never cease to be amused by how people seeking to troll/harm Christianity think that Satanic imagery is going to do it.
It won't, any more than monuments to Loki would do anything but increase awareness of Thor. It's the same metaphysical system (pointless dissembling by LaVeyans notwithstanding), and which statistically "wins" for a given case of interest is manifestly clear.
I doubt, in fact, there has been a single greater recent "recruiter" of Christians than the "Diablo" series of games. Mysterious ways, indeed...
Next we need a statue of the Magical Teapot orbiting Jupiter and The Flying Spaghetti Monster guiding the masses with his noodly appendage.
That is simplstic. My happiness is based on killing ACLU lawyers. By denying me the right to be free and kill ACLU lawyers, the ACLU denying my freedom and therefore enslaving everyone on the entire planet, oh wait that would be every single living being in the entire multi-verse
Gee Thanks ACLU. Way to look out for freedom,
Wasn't that some sort of ancient equivalent of a defense attorney?
T. M. Pederson
"Lies, Damn Lies, and Documentation"
I am just loving this to bits. Getting my popcorn ready, this should be good!
For the record, the oft-quoted statement "Do as thou wilt be the whole of the law" does not mean what people think.
It comes from The Book of Law, and is followed by "Love is the law, love under will."
People don't normally include that last part, for some reason.
(The study of this post is forbidden. It is wise to destroy this browser tab after the first reading.
Whosoever disregards this does so at his own risk and peril. These are most dire.)
Let's push this baby up to 666 comments ! Gotta love freedom of expression.
please excuse my apathy
So when it's vandalized, who pays for the repair/removal?
A standard that all of these monuments should have- you're responsible for the maintenance that goes with it, or once it starts looking bad it'll just be dumped.
As a Tulsa, Oklahoma resident, this fills me with so much pride. Now to raise the money for a monument to Fenrir! Maybe a Ledberg stone replica? Anyone else up for it?
"Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
It's like an orgy of reach-arounds with you all congratulating each other on your witticisms.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
I visited the Indegogo site and they have raised $278 of $20,000 to do their project. Prediction: they don't reach their goal.
Satanism and good taste do not fit in the same sentence and oxymoronic.
Wow, you really know a lot about Satanism.
A quick question: the bible recognizes, tolerates, and at certain points condones slavery(*).
I've always wondered about that. If we can judge sections of the bible as outdated or immoral, superseded by a more enlightened sense of morality, why can't we do this for other sections, such as the ones about homosexuality?
That's a trap, BTW. See if you can answer without falling into it. Have a nice day!
(*) However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Nothing overtly Christian about the Ten Commandments. This doctrine is followed by Jews, Muslims, and Christians. I wonder if Brady Henderson has a particular problem with Christians that he would choose to word his statement that way.
Just sell, transfer or exchange the immediate plot of land that the ten commandments monument is on to a private non-profit with appropriate deeded restrictions and then don't allow religious monuments on the public land that remains.
This is essentially what was done to settle the White Cross Monument dispute at the Mojave National Preserve.
I agree that religious and other forms of speech should not be biased or endorsed by government on public land. Doesn't mean there can't be a tasteful compromise to still allow religious monuments that are visible from public land.
Perhaps we could get a monument to C'thulu built. You know, one made out of Cyclopean blocks of blasphemous stone cut into geometrical forms for which an Euclid could scarcely find a name and given the form of nightmare antiquity.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
It seems to me that equal billing for Methodolgical Naturalists should be enabled as well. Since so many theists etc. argue that science is also a faith, then we should be allowed a monument.
Perhaps to Thales of Io.
"trust me, dykes can get pregnant"
-Steve Zissou
Thank you Dave Raggett
Competition? What are the Satanic Ten Commandments? Let me guess:
1. Thou Shalt Lie
2. Thou Shalt Steal
3. Thou Shalt Cheat.....and enjoy it!
4. Greed is Good
5. [Bleep] the Poor & Sick
6.
Heck, this is getting tiring. Let me simplify it:
1. Be like SCO.
Done!
Table-ized A.I.
The uncanny valley also seems to cover religious doctrines - any religion which is almost, but not quite like theirs is the spawn of Satan, in this case literally. It is a sad state of affairs when Homo Sapiens Sapiens - the 'thinking thinking humanoid' deliberately avoids using that brain power and instead ruts for whatever 'ultimate truth' their tribal elders have burdened them with. Thinking man, indeed.
--frank[at]unternet.org
to be upstanding citizens of the community then who cares what organization the monument is from.
Actually. I live in Tulsa. I supported the monument because I think it should be in the public. That being said, I have no issue with a goat skull inside a inverted pentagram or a statue of Aliester Crowely beside it. We are suppose to have freedom of Religion here that. means everyone any where and believe anything. The govt can't pick a favorite religion. That's it. So to get the ACLU to shut up, yes I will agree with joy. That's what real tolerance is. Hell, I will even support a life sized Buddy Jesus Pointing at him too.
It would seem that this is sweet irony! Epic fail on politicians trying to promote their religion.
I am an Oklahoma resident, and a Christian. I have no problem with the Ten Commandments, but anyone who bothers to actually read both can see that the first four (and possibly five) commandments are clearly in contention with the constitution. Very often, Christians, in their simplicity, when thinking about the Ten Commandments, only have in mind commandments 6,7,8, and 9 (or 5, 6, 7, and 8 depending on how they are enumerated). Allowing such a monument to be erected on public land using private funds, gets around the law, but only opens a pandora's box of other problems. It was inevitable that this would happen.
The hypocrisy in Oklahoma is this: you can get people to donate money like crazy to erect useless monuments, yet about 1/5th of the state's population doesn't know where their next meal is coming from.
This is one Oklahoma Christian that despises that monument.
Proverbs 21:19
Not because the monument will honor Satanism, but because it comes from a lousy bunch of New York Satanists. God, those guys are the most snooty of Satanists that exist.
It doesn't matter if FSM gets a pile of spaghetti or a pirate or a midget on a mountain - I'm in for $100 to memorialize it in granite!
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I'm calling BS all-around. The point of the 10 Commandments at the state capitol isn't a state endorsement of religion, nor is it requiring anyone to practice any sort of religion, or even obey the commandments. It's a monuments. It recognizes one of the earliest written sets of principles "relating to ethics and worship". Yes, there are many others that are earlier, but with our country's Judaic and Christian history, this is appropriate. Again, it's a monument, not an endorsement or an enforcement. Get over it.
When I travel in Asia, I expect to see a lot of Buddhist, Taoist and Eastern Asian monuments, even at the airport, civic centers, etc... It's a part of the culture. When in the Middle East, the same. Africa, the same. So why the hell wouldn't I expect to see monuments referencing the U.S.'s early religious roots? Lighten up, people. It's also why it doesn't make sense to have monuments of Satan, Buddha or Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Of course, if it was a civic center in a city with a large Asian population, such as San Francisco, I would have no problem seeing monuments of Asian religions.
Listen up you dirty bastard, I find your use of the wrong Ten Commandments to be offensive and dismissive of my beliefs. I'll split your nostrils with a boathook!
Furthermore, I thought the Ten Commandments was the Old Testament. You know, all Jew-ey. Aren't Christians supposed to be all about the New Testament?
There are *four* versions, and they all differ:
A. Catholics & Lutherans (Deuteronomy 5)
B. Jewish (Exodus 20, referring only to the delivery from Egypt)
C. Muslim (Qur'an-Citations refer to verses in the Qur'an)
D. Protestant (Exodus 20, referring only to graven images)
http://undergod.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000824
Seems like whichever version you post, someone might be unhappy with the choice. :-)
Koans and fables for the software engineer
This Satanic Temple is the same group that a while back conducted a "pink mass" intended to posthumously turn Fred Phelp's mother gay. I'm down with these people.
You are miserable because you are free.
This is a strawman argument that you can knock over quickly and swiftly. You see, these people are in the great minority. The majority doesn't want it. Letting this minority have its way is like saying, well, me and 100 other people voted for another presidendial candidate, so that candidate is equally legitimate. It's not true. Offend the minority, it's ok. Say no - the general majority represent morality in the state. This is immoral by the majority. We therefore follow the will of the majority and cannot cause such disruption with the will of the minority which also happens to follow a religion of death and separation from God which the majority also despises End of game. Strawman argument.
You are not using the word "fact" correctly. Your statement is in contradiction to reality.
First off, Satanism is NOT a religion. It is a cult. For one to believe in the fallen angel one has to believe in God. If one admits to Lucifer or "Satan" as you wish to follow Dante Alighieri's fantasy creation of hell and such then you are describing a literary world that is fiction.
Cults and fantasy worlds created by literature do not have any recognition under law as a religion and therefore this doesn't stand a chance in an educated society.
They are getting $100 from me. This has to happen!
As a Discordian Pope, I don't care what monuments they put up only that there are five of them, and I'd kinda like one to be a cabbage but am flexible on that.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
as long as it runs on Linux, we're good
Table-ized A.I.
If they put up a statue of Satan, how will we distinguish it from the statues of politicians?
Why Fenrir? Why not a statue of Christ Hemsworth as Thor?
good luck with that. I have yet to find stones that are blasphemous.
The catholic, the protestant, and the torah 10 commandment were slightly changed. Which makes sense since shabbath has absolutely no significance for, say, the catholic. But remember, at the start , Jesus was a jew, and he did not think of stopping the jewish religion. As such, christianism (or paulinism) are a sub-sect of the jew main trunk ;).
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I for one welcome our new......well, maybe not
Table-ized A.I.
as Beelzebub's eye...
And I am overtly cheering the new pope. I mean, at least he IS reminding chrisitan about their faith. And the richess/poverty thingy. Funnily it makes the conservative looks like ass, when they tell the pope he does not know what he is speaking of (yeah I know that quote from that guy on fox is slightly out of context , but that's still funny).
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
To fully understand the concept of religion its important to understand why and how this concept came about.
All systems of belief have flaws, for all any belief system is, is a constrained interpretation of the all that is. Why this is, is because abstract language used to communicate shared perspectives cannot express the all..... that is. - T.Rue
There is the why and how we came to create and use abstraction and out of this also came effort to create philosophies inline with the subconscious state of living (as many animals still do today) as the conscious mind cannot handle the massive amount of information the subconscious has access to. We use belief filters (and philosophies) to reduce what all we allow into our consciousness (me for me, you for you)
Interesting reads! Can you put the pieces together?
http://www.bizcharts.com/stoa_del_sol/conscious/conscious3.html
Perspective of Mind: Julian Jaynes
http://leftinthedark.org.uk/sites/default/files/Left%20in%20the%20Dark%20free%20edition.pdf
LEFT IN THE DARK
http://esgs.free.fr/uk/art/sands.htm
Science & Sanity (extreme left brain?)
http://umclidet.com/pdf/Frank.R..Wallace.-.Neocheating.pdf
Wallace - Neocheating. (the how to abuse mans left hemisphere?)
http://abstractionphysics.net/pmwiki/index.php
Abstraction Physics (The Mechanics)
http://iamb.net/IJMB/journal/IJMB_Vol_3_1.pdf
NEUROSCIENCE REVEALS THE WHOLE-BRAIN STATE.....(ARTICLE PAGE 73)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&%3Bv=9l6VPpDublg
No More Secrets
There is a reason why the number and size of protest around the world are happening. The common factor is people in the general population are getting fed up with the distortions of the few ruling over them.
I think it would be wise to allow so called Satanist to have their monument and specifically next to the ten commandments as simply a matter of contrast of the biased constraints. Might also go for something from each of the religions that people might get a good look at "in part".
You're nitpicking a semantic strawman of your own creation. The GP only said that the constitution does not allow the state to favor one religion over another. He did not cite the First Amendment as the sole origin of this from the moment it was ratified on, and you yourself acknowledge that the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates it against the states.
So, there was no reason to imply the GP had never read the First Amendment, because there's nothing he said that referenced it nor that was incorrect about the current state of the law.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Me too!
[Sent from AOL.]
It seems to me the will of the people is being often ignored in this discussion. If people of Oklahoma want 10 commandments posted or not let them, but that should not force them to make a place for something outside of their community values. A small minority of people either within or without a community should not have the ability to dictate their will to the masses.
I seem to recall that God handed down the 10 Commandments to Moses, not Jesus. The 10 Commandments are as much Jewish as the are Christian. It's only Christian because Christianity is because someone took the class of Jewish and extended it to create the class called Chistian.
No, no, the Ten Commandments aren't meant to represent Christianity or Judaism. They represent the Bible. Satan is also from the Bible. So the second monument would actually be representing the same belief system as the first one, namely the people who worship the Bible.
Note that worshipping the Bible apparently does not involve reading the Bible, or understanding any of its messages, and definitely not following any of the mutually exclusive moral codes it contains.
Don't evangelicals realize that by trying to insinuate Christian dogma into government they are diminishing both their faith and their civil society?
But I guess that's to be expected when you give yourself a victim's mentality. If you listen to many evangelicals, you would think that they are the most discriminated against, put upon, beaten down minority in the entire world. You would think they have to practice their religion in secret to avoid arrest, rather than there being a church on every other street corner in America. They fight to prevent women from getting health care in private, gays from having formal relationships, children from learning science, and then cry that their rights are being violated. They've turned "Merry Christmas" into a defiant challenge instead of a wish for peace.
If the Satan of the bible existed, he'd feel right at home with this bunch.
You are welcome on my lawn.
probably shouldn't have surfed to that URL at work though..... but their site actually comes across as quite rational and reasonable. Not what I was expecting at all.
There are *four* versions, and they all differ:
For A,B, and D (don't know about C), the words are the same, but the different group have divided them differently. It's not like God said "Here are the ten", people divided them up into 10 later. Maybe they thought that 10 was a nice round number, but since they aren't divided up in the Bible everyone had to figure out how to divided them up themselves.
The monument as it stands today encourages the citizens to be zealous and righteous followers of the One God. At least the first four commandments talk about nothing else and dwarf everything that follows in the sheer number of words.
No mistake, I don't think satanists are any less silly than other religious weirdos, but the sound of those conservatives minds exploding is pretty neat. And the best part is that they totally brought this on themselves.
The words are not quite the same... according to the page I reference:
Koans and fables for the software engineer
Ok Lets get something straight. Moses is in the Muslim religion , the Judaism religion, and the Christian religion. He gave us a set of rules to live by all people....yes from God , or Allah. Read them and they make sense. If they don't why? They should be and are the basis of Law...no matter what religion you abide by....even atheists abide by and should.
Catholics, Jews and Protestants have different translations of the 10 Commandments. Some translations differ on how to divide the commandments. Muslim translation(s) may differ too.
I suggest a lawsuit to post all translations, or perhaps just post the original Hebrew version.
They're just on the other side.
Looking at their website ( http://www.thesatanictemple.org/ ) and reading their tenents and beliefs, they actually seem like reasonable people.
In fact, their agnostic viewpoint and quest for knowledge and justice seem like quite reasonable things.
Always thought of myself as an agnostic. Perhaps I really was a Satanist all this time?
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
Can I get a ramen?
They're not content with destroying JewYork they have to spread their faggotry elsewhere. Good thing LBGT is just a nonsensical grouping of consonants here. Burn in hell fags!
'But if the Ten Commandments, with its overtly Christian message, is allowed to stay at the Capitol,
But ... but ... Moses was a Jew. It's an overtly Jewish message.
Nobody better touch my pagan festival for the "birth" of someone born in July, yet celebrated in December.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
No-where in the constitution does it say anything about any "religion" it only mentions God!
All the brilliant people that created the constitution all "agreed" on God.
Get that to happen in this day through congress - would be a miracle.
If you don't like what the brilliant founding fathers designed - then your welcome to
leave this great country. The founding fathers meant marriage between a man and woman
because nothing else makes sense. Two women can't continue a species, two men can't
continue a species. Only a man and woman can do that. Just like God intended.
I pray that the 10 commandments will stay in Oklahoma and any attempts to take them
down - or - put other additional wrong statues is defeated.
Communities make laws that represent the majority in their community. They also commonly erect statues that represent something about their community. We don't throw out laws when one person's views are represented. How is it that a conservative community can't display a symbol with historical significance which represents the majority view? It isn't being "forced" on anyone (unlike a law). If you don't like the statue, don't look at it. There might be a case if tax payer dollars were used, but they weren't. If at some point the majority in the community no longer feels represented by the statue, then they can elect council members who will tear it down.
for EMP and nanoviruses!
atheists and satan worshippers are a plague.
I mean, Satan comes from the bible too, no? Unless you're worshipping pre-Abrahamic dieties that only influenced the depiction of Satan. But then you're not a Satanist - you're a Pagan. This is all too confusing.
It would be funnier, and less sacrilegious to the most uptight of the bible thumbers.
http://www.venganza.org/
See what happens when you fail to burn devil worshipers at the stake! Round them up a deep fry them and the problem is solved.
They've had 2,000+ years to work on this...; you would think that one of them would finally be *really* good at it by now...
To understand this comment fully you must first be cloaked in darkness outdoors, under a clear night sky. After you've studied the glimmering wonders of the heavens above, then return and continue...
Now consider yourself as a creator incarnate: A great doer. Imagine yourself in the proverbial beginning, surrounded only by blackness. Then comes the order, "Let there be Light", and it's up to you, Lucifer, The Light Bringer, to unmake the dark.
Think back to those billions upon billions of Enormous Burning Stars -- You made them all and brought into the Universe more light than anyone could ever need. The job is done, and done right. You've applied space-time curvature to pool matter beyond the bonding point and invented the Gravity Furnace. All the glories of the night sky -- the colourful Nebula created by brilliant explosive Super Novae, the Black Holes around which Galaxies of Stars are wrapped, all your doing. In the heart of every Gravity Forge simple matter and energy are fused into heavier elements -- In anticipation of their use in the creation of all other things.
Imagine your most Powerful and Prestigious position in ruins: The Boss has come down with a split personality disorder and now fixates solely on a small wet rock orbiting an ordinary Star in an ordinary Planetary System of an ordinary Galaxy. Imagine your true Potential wasted as your Boss Almightily stands transfixed upon a single group of literally moronic chemical interactions he claims to have created. He's bared any further celestial intervention or creating out among the vastness of space -- Even beyond the light-speed horizon of the small blue world -- and clearly gone insane.
It's no wonder the Angels revolted -- It's no wonder Half the Angels sided with Lucifer and became angels fallen out of God's grace. Who among you wouldn't?! And then in his righteous rage, just to spite you (and prevent competition), the Great and Wise God your Boss Almighty casts you down and entraps you in the centre of the Earth! Not just any planet, THE Earth. Out of all the Billions of other Planets an arm's reach away he picks the same damned planet that his precious "people" inhabit as your prison? His mind whispers the truth that he'll whisk away the beasties and let all be destroyed one day too, so there's really no point in this ridiculous madness.
Imagine the restraint that Lucifer must exhibit. Now dubbed Satan, the "Prince of Darkness", the creator of all light in the Universe keeps his awesome power in check, only screwing with the daily lives of the pathetic beasts that roam the prison planet's surface in the most minor of ways. Content to know that in a few billion years the Earth will be consumed by the death fires of the very Star you created to give the world light.
Yeah, even if we are not talking about the rational individualistic Laveyan Satanist, you could see why some would side with Satanists against the Christian sheep herders who worship their insane God. Rumour has it, He had His chosen people kill His own Son, for Christ's sake!
You know, Santa Claus is coming to town...
There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
Seems like it'll be easy enough to dismiss this one for now with a residency requirement - they'll have to find someone in OK to file the suit. Even once they do, they can likely require that the person show that it's a religious group, not just one nutball's world-view, and probably establish a presence for a period of time. All-in-all, with enough effort and time, I'm sure they can get a favorable decision, most likely forcing the 10 commandments to be moved, but I will be 5 years minimum to get there.
Religion can define marriage however it wants. Thankfully, so can the law.
This is so far off topic but it still got a "Score:5, Insightful". This is about satanists wanting a monument to their favorite fictional character next to an icon of laws some guy made up and wrote in stone then claimed his imaginary friend wrote it, (which may have been the first instance of reverse plagiarism). This was NEVER about marriage, whether gay, straight, incestuous, bigamous, polygamous... et ceteramous.
Now a correction: the summary indicates someone stated the monument to The Ten Commandments has an overtly Christian message. What. The. Fuck?!? Overtly CHRISTIAN?!? I want some of whatever HE'S smoking... it's obviously some good, hardcore shit. To whomever said that: THEY WERE JEWS, DUMBASS! The stupidity that is Christianity (or ChristINSANITY as I like to call it,) wasn't even INVENTED until about a thousand years later! Since gods, like ghosts, angels, demons, goblins, smurfs, fairies, los chupacabras, yeti, the Loch Ness Monster, fire-breathing giant dragons, honest politicians, whores with hearts of gold, etc., AREN'T FUCKING REAL, it's a fair bet Satan isn't either. Why not also ask for permission to erect a monument to Voldemort, or Megatron?
Anyway, as an atheist, can I offer a solution? How about NO MONUMENTS ON PUBLIC LANDS to any of your imaginary friends, or references to shit they supposedly told someone who was either sick, mentally deranged, or tripping fucking balls? How about that? Otherwise eventually, it will get even worse, for all of you evangelical nut jobs: the Muslims will want a giant statue of Moh... of Moham... of Mohama... hahaha... never mind. They probably won't want that.
I was a satanist until now (according to their tenets)! I'll stick with Buddhism though.
I insist on a Flying Spaghetti Monster monument!
Personally, I'd like to propose raising money for a giant colander. All hail the giant spaghetti monster!!
Meus subcriptio est nocens Latin quoniam bardus populus reputo is sanus callidus
The Ten Commandments are the foundational laws for the ancient Israelites to describe how those peoples should live. The laws are highly revered among Christians. I'd be interested to see the Satanic version of foundational laws by which followers of Satan should live. I'll take a crack at it, just for fun, since they didn't actually supply the text of this potential monument on the campaign website.
1. You shall serve yourself above all others.
2. You shall seek the pleasures and worries of the moment. Seek no knowledge, wisdom, or companionship save that which accomplishes your desires.
3. You shall make lies and deceit your native tongue.
4. You shall resist all authority, for it is illegitimate.
5. You shall lead others to resist authority with the promise of bountiful pleasures, so long as they are of use.
6. You shall subjugate all those who are not of use.
7. For those you cannot subjugate, you shall subjugate their kin.
8. You shall deny the will of others by force and violence.
9. You shall bring torment and death on all peoples.
10. You shall bring chaos to that which is ordered, for chaos is the natural state of things.
11. You shall break the law.
Just apply to erect a monument with a Bible verse or two on it. They could not possibly object to a real Bible verse or two.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
"What would Satan have done?"
'We would prefer to see Oklahoma's government officials work to faithfully serve our communities and improve the lives of Oklahomans instead of erecting granite monuments to show us all how righteous they are,'
No - it's to state how righteous God is. These are His absolute's - not man made. That's why they are so objected to.
Posting of the ten commandments is not merely a religious message.
It is a way of recognizing culture under which law is based.
For the satanists' monument to be accepted; it (1) must fit somewhere aesthetically appropriate --- not a given; there is only room for so many monuments, and at some point it must be first-come first-served for space, AND
(2) the satanists monument should contain elements from common culture supporting law and justice.
If not... then the message is not rejectable on religious grounds, but is rejectable based on RELEVANCY grounds.
The selection of subjects for monuments is not arbitrary, but the 10 commandments are inspirations of good law; good role models for legislators in drafting bills ---- simple, protect society, and easily understood.
I don't know... there might be some satanic monuments that could contain a relevant message, but most probably wouldn't.
Absolutely, I agree with you. There does need to be such a separation. As a man of faith, myself, I feel it is necessary to separate my spiritual beliefs from my social responsibility as a voter. I wish more people did the same.
However, I think that if the people of Oklahoma (which is dead center in the oft-called "Bible belt") want to have the 10 commandments on the grounds of their state Capitol then Satanists in New York should leave the hell alone. If there was a large community of Satanists in Oklahoma (which I doubt), their complaint may be valid. On the other hand, if we were putting monuments of specific faiths on the Federal Capitol grounds, then I would side with the Satanists (which feels weird to say) and agree that if we have one, we should have them all - so it's probably best to have none.
My point is that the beauty of state government versus federal is that you can be more specific to the people living in the state itself. If a bunch of people in a community want to have their community centered around their faith and they all agree, then just leave them in peace*. New York Satanists are just trolling Oklahoma. Their "proposal" is nothing more than flamebait.
*Disclaimer: if the community of faith results in the malicious brainwashing and/or exploitation of the members, then this statement is negotiable.
"With patience a ruler may be persuaded, and a soft tongue will break a bone."
One is just as ignorantly stupid as the other. So why not?
Validation and verification is the point that the states are concerned with, and the majority of the population for that matter. That is also a large part of what the gay community wants. Tax breaks for a couple filing joint taxes just like the straight couple, shared responsibility, dependent insurance benefits, etc...
This is why the EU solved the problem with a Civil Union status across the board, which marriages count as automatically. A select few in the US refused to accept that status (on both sides) so we end up with muck and confusion. Nothing new here, same tactics work in politics all the time to make real issues vanish and people bicker over things that make no difference.
There is very little that the Government needs to regulate when it comes to marriage, and most of that we would think is common sense. The only two to be concerned with are that the couple must be far enough away in the blood line that their kids are not born with defects, and limit the quantity of husbands and wives to ensure society can progress.
Church handles most of that regulation so that the Government does not have to (with Judea Christian's at least/minus Mormons). The fact is, that Government and Church can coexist just fine for society. Perhaps Socrates principle of the Noble Lie is lost on you, maybe it's time to study.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
"A. Lutherans (Deuteronomy 5)
B. Jewish (Exodus 20, referring only to the delivery from Egypt)
C. Muslim (Qur'an-Citations refer to verses in the Qur'an)
D. Protestant"
Huh? I thought Lutherans and Protestants were the same. At least that is how the names are used colloquially were I live.
I am confused... But reasonably Satanist should also be considered Christians just rooting for the other team? Personally I would have thought that something more interesting could have been erected there. BTW if I have understood philosophical satanism correctly, one of its core beliefs is that egoism is a virtue. That should make a good fit with some of the Republicans.
It should be in the form of an undead Jeff Hanneman, brutalizing a guitar.
-- Cisk for the Cisk God
Once again you can't fix stupid.
I'm religious (which one doesn't matter) so I guess I'm biased, but I'm very much in favour of freedom of religion.
They've already set the standard by placing the 10Commandments there, so if other religious groups want to fund/donate something, as long as it's tasteful why not? (bearing in mind that the statue of david has his dangly bits showing and is still considered fine)
Do I have a problem if Satanists want to put a statue of Satan there too? Nope.
Do I have a problem if followers of Islam want to put a model of the cornerstone of that building, or an arrow towards Mecca, or something representing the Koran/Quran? Nope.
Do I have a problem if a Bahai group want to put something there? Nope.
Do I have a problem if some followers of ancient egyptian religion want to put a statue of Horus there? Nope
Statue of Apollo? Nope
Atheists want an empty pedestal? (or perhaps that evolution of man series of primates thing)? Nope
If the group is paying for it and not the government, then simply allocate an area there where there is room for them. This may involve moving the 10 commandments one too, but what's good for the goose....
If they allow a victory Mosque at ground zero why not this
Don't understand why these 'Christians' are raising a monument to the ten commandments, placing all that emphasis on those rules. I'm an atheist, but was raised as a strict christian. Now if I'm not mistaken Christ made it very clear, the ten commandments are null and void, as they couldn't be adhered to by the Israelites in the first place, he was the new covenant. It seems to me they can't even get their own beliefs right.
I'm looking for 20 grand, it will be 100 ft high, 100 ft wide and made of pure air. We don't need to worry about planning permission and getting approval or none of that bumf. It's already there, and I already paid for it because I'm such a nice guy but you guys can chip in to pay back, when ever your ready.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Just carve rampant willies on the stone, it'll be blasphemous in the USA.
Actually, if you need a rounder bit of stone, making it a boobie would do the same thing in the USA, as long as you can see the nipple.
http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/188772/diy-bris/
Any comment?
just make sure he has some breeches and a snappy Vest on and go for it Horns to Tail to Hooves.
Heck if anybody wants to put something up as long as the same standards are in place for EVERYBODY (Shiva needs to be "clothed") if there is room then have at it.
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
These NY people call themselves "satanists" but, drawing on the etymology of "satan", insist that they do not worship satan or any supernatural power. Ok, fine, but why on earth call yourself "satanists" when your interpretation of that word is so very far removed from that of Joe Public? Why not call yourselves "The Self-Interested Atheistic Rationalist Church" or something sort of accurate in contemporary parlance to get your tax deduction - instead of using what amounts to a highly misleading label? False advertising even. Dickheads.
This is decidedly not what Gandhi would do, nor MLK.
Actually, I am certain Anton would approve; I only met him once and we mostly just talked about Tommy-guns, but I read through his library and source materials. This is precisely what LaVeyan Satanism is about.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
The 10 Commandments comes from the Old Testament, so really it's a overly Hebrew message delivered by Moses.
Most legislative and judicial houses are decorated with historic laws and lawgivers.* In that context, the 10 Commandments are not there so much for their religious value as they are for their historic value. In practice, I suspect that it is the overlap that is most important here, with the 10 Commandments being the most important law code in the religious tradition that, like it or not, was and is the most influential in the US.
What historic lawgiving events are the satanists planning to depict? Yeah...
Now, if Tulsa's Babylonian citizens and Mardukists get together to fund a display of Hammurabi or his code, I'll personally pitch in.
* No, really.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Supreme_Court_Building#Sculptural_program
http://www.aoc.gov/capitol-hill/relief-portrait-plaques-lawgivers/about-relief-portrait-plaques-lawgivers
See that "Preview" button?
n/t
Nelson Mandela?
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
"But if the Ten Commandments, with its overtly Christian message, "
The Ten Commandments are revered and followed by Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.
There is nothing overtly Christian about them.
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
Maybe we could spring for a statue of the entire book of Leviticus.
I, for one, welcome our vegan overlords.
http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/188772/diy-bris/
Funny - I posted that link earlier and my post was DELETED.
Something to hide? Everybody knows Jews like torturing their own BABIES - just read that fucking article. Why are these mad perverts allowed to torture babies?
First of all, there is nowhere in the constitution where the words "Separation of Church and State" appear. Neither in the Constitution nor in the Bill of rights or in any other amendment. It is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson and others.
Second, notice the careful use of the word "Church" instead of "God" because they did not believe in the Separation of "God" and state.
Third, belief that a monument that was only religious was allowed to be built is false. The ten commandments is not just a religious icon. It is a symbol of law and is a well-known and early in history example of law and government. The ten commandments is a historical event that represents law and government.
It makes sense with both.
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
Whyliberalsarewrong.com/2013/10/even-if-you-are-not-catholic/
Why am I surprised that snarkiness and shallow understanding gets modded "Insightful"?
People make make "gods" out of many things: money, power, beauty, themselves. It's no surprise the "Golden Calf" was, well, Golden and that people who got tired of wandering around in the desert for years with nothing started to worship it - "Forget that other guy, I'm gonna worship something that's gonna give me something in return. I'm tired of schleping around this desert."
You may quibble with the theistic implication of this, however, your limited interpretation does not tell the whole story.
You can't always get what you want. Bad things happen, don't go complaining that someone is doing this to you without reason.
It's also a pretty bad idea to use his name to deceive others whether it is for monetary or personal gain or distorting his words (Westboro Baptist).
Yeah, let's institute 7 day workweeks. If you manage people, push them to a breaking point without respecting time for family. Hey, are you writing this from work? Get back to making that login page.
This is not a platitude. Your parents took care of you growing up, don't throw them away when you do. Take care of them when the get sick and old, something we don't seem to want to do in society today.
You seem to be unable to differentiate between capital punishment and murder. Hint: this one's about murder.
Funny, I though Moses was Jewish. Anyways, "Don't break the trust of a friend is covered" in 8. You did read these things through, didn't you? I also assume you understand the history of polygamy, right?
Skipped a bunch of inane observations on the others...
It's not about the neighbor, it's about you. Constantly comparing yourself with others, bitterly commenting on how they don't deserve what they have, whether that be a job, a spouse, a seemingly trouble-free life probably won't make you a better person. If you can't differentiate this from stealing, I can't help you...
If you can show that Satan or a Satanic list of commandments led to our current codex of law I say go for it. As Alinsky dedicated his Rules for Radicals to Satan I think there may be a precedent here for the modern set of laws being implemented. I would feel the same about Islamic tenants if building from Sharia etc. As it stands, with the NSA, ATF, Hate Crime, Thought Crime, Patriot Act, and more I think a Satanic monument probably should be in place more so than the 10 Commandments. You are what you eat.
Satanists didn't found the country, nor a bunch of atheists, nor a bunch of gays. It was founded by a bunch of Christians almost exclusively, and it was founded primarily with respect to Christian values. When other groups found their own country, let them put up their set of values.
i see what you did there
Wikipedia says it pretty well:
Wikipedia was written by idiots, for idiots like you who can't think. Democracy is mob rule. Period.
Let's say this goes through, and there's a Satanic monument next to the Christian one.
Does this mean all the other state capitols have to start erecting monuments? Because I think the lack of monuments certainly implies an Atheist outlook.
Whatever, Satanists VALIDATE their beliefs. They should hate them, but somehow be glad they are around.
Atheists just think they are nuts.
I'm not a Satanist, but I would donate money towards that cause...
Sorry all for gay marriage and stuff, but in the above example a simple will would have solved that issue.
If they were together for 30 years and didn't make wills out to each other, that is silly.
You can put all sorts of stuff in wills like power of attorney etc...
Marriage does offer some automatic "default" rights, but you can still set them up yourself if you really want to.
About the only argument that I have against gay marriage is that of certain government benefits (mostly tax breaks) that married couples get. The idea behind this is to promote families, ultimately procreation, and even beyond that population growth.
Which you are not going to get with a gay couple. Honestly I think government should get out of all of that entirely, or if not, base it only on offspring, in which case if a gay couple adopted, or surrogate, or artificial, or whatever, then they would be just as eligible. Plenty of straight couples out there getting benefits with no intention of having kids, why is government supporting them also?
The answer I know is votes really. Show me a politician who wants to come out anti-family or increasing taxes on families and I will show you one that isn't going to win.
Rather than Satan, have Stalin, not sure which would piss them off more!
Also
The biggest fattest laughing Budda! It is all a grand cosmic joke!
Satan is a creation of the Christian church. That is what they get . There is no devil.
satanists are polarized Christians.
SCOTUS has ruled that satanism is not a religion. A religion is a belief in god.
This is my vote for a statue of http://mrdeity.com/
Unlike Rameses II, the actual person as described, sans divinity, as Jesus doesn't exist.
That character is as "recorded very soundly in history" as Arthur Pendragon or Robin Hood.
I.e. a fictional account derived from several real people amalgamated into one character who never existed.
Why now all this fuss ?? As a kid I well remember going to see Satan in his grotto at this time every year. ..........
Nobody complained then
Dix Lectus
Verginia
The problem is that most people won't see this for the what the issue actually is. The issue is that a religious symbol was place on public property and hence violated several key ideals, one of which is the separation between church and state. That alone isn't a big issue as long as you allow the any religious or non religious group to display a symbol representing their viewpoints and their beliefs. For instance if you show the 10 commandments ( most of which are pretty bad over all rules ) then fairly you must also allow atheists, The FSM, Satanists, The Church of Heavy Metal or etc... to display what they want. This isn't a case about which religion is right or even if religion makes sense, this is purely a case of unfair representation that must be equalized or taken away. After all if you flip this entire deal around and allow the Satanists to put a display and disallow Christians, what would happen?
As long as its a topless statue, you have my donation
Whether you are religious or not, or believe in the existence of the leaders of these religions or not, or believe that there is corruption within the human organizations that run some of these religions or not; the country was founded on values that are consistent with those espoused by "real" religions (oh yes I did), and inconsistent with values tied to the concept of "Satan".
So I'm sorry, but: Satanists, shut up.
At some point, the common values of 98% of people do matter, even while protecting a reasonable freedom of anyone who wants to identify as a minority in some aspect of life. You DO draw a line at hate and violence, for example, regardless that a small minority wants to spread that. Their freedom stops when it goes against the most fundamental rights of everyone else.
While we are a country of laws, and we agree on a need for them to apply to everyone, I am appalled that there would be any serious consideration to actually place a statue of satan at the courthouse. I am a Christian, and of course I like that the Ten Commandments are at the courthouse. The commandments represent an early form of law. According to the Bible, satan was a controversial character who encouraged Eve to break the one existing rule about behavior in the garden. The commandments are about there being a set of conventions for the good of society. Satan has generally stood for anarchy and people doing whatever they please. Perhaps in the interest of religious freedom, the commandments will have to be removed. That's a shame in my opinion.
Show me where in the consitution there should be a separation of church and state? This was a quote that has been attributed to a number of people from George Washington to Benjamin Franklin to Andrew Jackson. But it's incomplete. He said that there should be a separation of church and state such that the state does not influence the church and dictate religion. Faith does and should continue to be part of our government. The problemis that the only thing most of them have faith in is money.
Give me that old time religion
Give me that old time religion
Give me that old time religion
And that's good enough for me
We will pray to Aphrodite
Even tho' she's rather flighty
And they say she wears no nightie
And that's good enough for me
We will pray with those Egyptians
Build pyramids to put our crypts in
Cover subways with inscriptions
And that's good enough for me
[ Tab from: http://www.guitaretab.com/p/pete-seeger/99547.html ]
O-old Odin we will follow
And in fighting we will wallow
Til we wind up in Valhalla
And that's good enough for me
Let me follow dear old Buddha
For there is nobody cuter
He comes in plaster, wood, or pewter
And that's good enough for me
We will pray with Zarathustra
Pray just like we useta
I'm a Zarathustra booster
And that's good enough for me
We will pray with those old Druids
They drink fermented fluids
Waltzing naked thru the woo-ids
And that's good enough for me
Hare Krishna gets a laugh on
When he sees me dressed in saffron
With my hair that's only half on
And that's good enough for me
I'll arise at early morning
When my Lord gives me the warning
That the solar age is dawning
And that's good enough for me
When they talk about Satan, they are using the word Satan but their description is of a different character. So they should stop calling their character Satan. they should call their character Fido or something like that. I don't think there would be much objection to a statue of Fido the Bringer Of Light.
I am a practicing Catholic since 2009. I go to Mass at least once per week (sometimes more than once), have participated in prayer groups many times, went to two retreats, and one meditation per month.
In all that time, I heard a priest talk (in passing) about abortion twice, and homosexuality once. Artificial contraception never. No priest has ever defended the free market in my presence. On the other hand, my parish priest dedicates the overwhelming majority of his homily to social justice.
In fact, one of the greatest problems with the Catholic Church is that priests are too politically correct to defend unadultered Catholic teaching.
I cannot comment about Evangelicals because I never went to an evangelical service.
Nevermind what the ultraconservatives think, the real new Pope policy, as judge by internal communication disclosed while he was an archbishop shows he's still half a century late. You can google his internal memo when Gay marriage was discussed in Argentina, in the terms of "make no mistake, gay marriage is yet another attack by the Prince of Darkness on the family and the work of God"
"Islam directly and proudly promotes evil, damage, and chaos.
Judaism directly and proudly promotes evil, damage, and chaos.
Scientology directly and proudly promotes evil, damage, and chaos."
These are all fairly accurate, but you forgot something:
Christianity directly and proudly promotes evil, damage, and chaos.
And for a final thought: Common sense trumps all of the above. Do humans still believe in a supernatural, all powerful entity that controls this rock's inhabitants? Do you believe that is air you are breathing. Hmmmm.