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Miss a Payment? Your Car Stops Running
HughPickens.com writes Auto loans to borrowers considered subprime, those with credit scores at or below 640, have spiked in the last five years with roughly 25 percent of all new auto loans made last year subprime, a volume of $145 billion in the first three months of this year. Now the NYT reports that before they can drive off the lot, many subprime borrowers must have their car outfitted with a so-called starter interrupt device, which allows lenders to remotely disable the ignition. By simply clicking a mouse or tapping a smartphone, lenders retain the ultimate control. Borrowers must stay current with their payments, or lose access to their vehicle and a leading device maker, PassTime of Littleton, Colo., says its technology has reduced late payments to roughly 7 percent from nearly 29 percent. "The devices are reshaping the dynamics of auto lending by making timely payments as vital to driving a car as gasoline."
Mary Bolender, who lives in Las Vegas, needed to get her daughter to an emergency room, but her 2005 Chrysler van would not start. Bolender was three days behind on her monthly car payment. Her lender remotely activated a device in her car's dashboard that prevented her car from starting. Before she could get back on the road, she had to pay more than $389, money she did not have that morning in March. "I felt absolutely helpless," said Bolender, a single mother who stopped working to care for her daughter. Some borrowers say their cars were disabled when they were only a few days behind on their payments, leaving them stranded in dangerous neighborhoods. Others said their cars were shut down while idling at stoplights. Some described how they could not take their children to school or to doctor's appointments. One woman in Nevada said her car was shut down while she was driving on the freeway. Attorney Robert Swearingen says there's an old common law principle that a lender can't "breach the peace" in a repossession. That means they can't put a person in harm's way. To Swearingen, that would mean "turning off a car in a bad neighborhood, or for a single female at night."
Mary Bolender, who lives in Las Vegas, needed to get her daughter to an emergency room, but her 2005 Chrysler van would not start. Bolender was three days behind on her monthly car payment. Her lender remotely activated a device in her car's dashboard that prevented her car from starting. Before she could get back on the road, she had to pay more than $389, money she did not have that morning in March. "I felt absolutely helpless," said Bolender, a single mother who stopped working to care for her daughter. Some borrowers say their cars were disabled when they were only a few days behind on their payments, leaving them stranded in dangerous neighborhoods. Others said their cars were shut down while idling at stoplights. Some described how they could not take their children to school or to doctor's appointments. One woman in Nevada said her car was shut down while she was driving on the freeway. Attorney Robert Swearingen says there's an old common law principle that a lender can't "breach the peace" in a repossession. That means they can't put a person in harm's way. To Swearingen, that would mean "turning off a car in a bad neighborhood, or for a single female at night."
I'm glad the finance companies found a way to make "be late on your payment, while you scrounge up money" a worse option for the poor than "let your family starve while you scrounge up money". :-/
This should be illegal.
You know if you have paid or not so the control is solely in your hands. It's a stereotype that you're poor because you are irresponsible. Don't be the stereotype.
And if you're really in medical need, ambulances will come pick you up.
>> turning off a car in a bad neighborhood
In other words, where they live?
There should be a visible counter. "Vehicle payment overdue. Ignition will be disabled in 72 hours 00 minutes..." That would solve most of these problems and make it fair.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Cars cost money to maintain, film at 11.
It's not your car until you pay for it. Until then, it's the bank's car.
I question why a single mom with no job has a $389 monthly payment instead of buying a 8 year old used car she could actually afford.
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Because the car isn't worth anything to them compared to keeping you making payments for the rest of its life and beyond.
What makes a single male any safer in a dangerous neighborhood?
not really a solution. that $999 car will work, kinda, probably, maybe. or it could fail to start at any time because it is a car that you paid $999 for and it is almost certainly not what most people would consider 'reliable transportation.'
Bump the price up to around $4 or $5k, then you might have something reliable enough to count on for work, school, medical emergencies etc. But that is a much more difficult amount of money to scrape up for someone living paycheck to paycheck.
So if I'm a single male at night it's ok to leave me stranded as rape bait?
not buying cars on credit?
How about we make it that much harder to be poor in the United States? What a place. If you think the banks don't run things in this country, just look at the way debtors and lenders are treated. Lenders must be made whole, even though they are charging a higher rate on these loans due to the added risk they are supposedly taking on. Debtors, well they better find a way to pay.
Reminds me of one of my favorite movies. "But now the guy's gotta come up with Paulie's money every week, no matter what. Business bad? "Fuck you, pay me." Oh, you had a fire? "Fuck you, pay me." Place got hit by lightning, huh? "Fuck you, pay me."
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
You could end up helping the loan sharks kill a whole bunch of people.
It would be interesting to see what the net effect of these devices is.
Did it just move a bunch of people from the category of "You can have a car loan and if you don't pay we will go through a long process to repossess your car." to "You can have a car loan but we can shut it off as soon as you miss a payment."
Or did it move people from the category of "You don't get a car loan at all." to "You can have a car loan but we can shut it off as soon as you miss a payment."
I suspect it's both but it would be interesting to know what happens in aggregate.
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Yikes!
Gettin' real here. . . .
Wait, didn't they already agree to have the device installed before buying the car? then they miss the payment... and are surprised when they can't use the car they stopped paying for? it's like saying that the gas station attendee refused to give them gas when they couldn't pay for it, the person who ran out of gas didn't choose when he would run out, but he had plenty of warning and should have expected it when his car was under the little letter E and he was still driving...
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This technology isn't new. An Austin car dealer a few years back had something similar where the buyer would pay weekly and punch a code on the receipt on a PINpad or else their car wouldn't start.
IIRC, A disgruntled ex-employee had a valid employee's password, logged on through that, and disabled all cars in the system out of malice, paid customers or not, having all their vehicle horns honk as well until the batteries died.
Not impressed with a system like this. Even after it is removed, the fact that it likely was installed by someone who just hacked and twisted wires at almost random may mean electrical issues down the line.
Typical capitalist stunt. I have a better idea. Don't lend to people with crap credit to begin with. People who got NINJA loans were a prime reason for the mortgage crisis. Have we learned nothing? People with crap or no credit need to be buying older, used cars until they can either build credit or make better income. Nowhere is it written people deserve nice, new, shiny cars. Everytime I see someone hurtling down the street in a brand new shiny car or truck I think they are likely up to their eyeballs in debt. My wife and I have said we will never, ever again buy a new car. It's not worh the aggro.
I am envious, thought, of those with the rock-solid Volvo 240D I see often in my area. I would love one of those. They run literally forever.
Or even more radically: earn money before spending it.
Such a bad idea, not just because of banks potentially putting a person in harm's way, but that there'll soon be stories of hackers disabling cars by using this.
Just opt out from the credit system; it only exists to keep people on the hook, enriching others on the backs of the poor and ignorant.
Get rid, and stay rid of all debt. Destroy the credit cards; you don't need them and they will only screw you over. Use cash or debit, even checks, for all transactions. Start a habit of saving. After a year or two, you can buy a car using YOUR MONEY and be done with it. Live within your means; stop buying useless crap.
Opt out; they need you, but you DO NOT NEED THEM.
Right. They should simply not make loans to people who don't have good credit.
Actually, they should not make loans for *new cars* to people who do not have good credit. Somebody whose credit is bad does not have the financial competence to buy a new car unless they can come up with the money up front or otherwise show that their credit score doesn't reflect their ability to handle money.
There is no reason for someone with bad credit to pay for a new car. You pay such a premium on a new car that you are basically throwing money away--or trading gabs of money for time spent looking for a decent used car, which doesn't usually take that long. You cannot afford to throw money away if you have bad credit.
Financing a new car for someone who has bad credit is taking advantage of their financial problem in a way which can make their children starve.
That means they can't put a person in harm's way. To Swearingen, that would mean "turning off a car in a bad neighborhood, or for a single female at night."
Either we're striving for equality in which females aren't protected by males or we're not. Please stop letting women play helpless victims while at the same time demanding preferential treatment for tons of other things. Equality kills all modern chivalry.
I question why a single mom with no job has a $389 monthly payment instead of buying a 8 year old used car she could actually afford.
A 2006 Toyota Camry costs about $7,500 to $11,000 according to Kelley Blue Book via MSN. Buying an 8-year-old car on a 24-month payment plan would result in a payment amount of $9,336.
It would only be fair that if the bank doesn't process my deposit in a timely manner that I disable something of theirs.
I called it a mighty Sperm Whale, she called it Finding Nemo.
She probably got the loan before she needed to quit her job to care for her daughter. But you go ahead and keep judging people based on your own biased opinions and inadequate information.
If I fail to spend any of my money on fuel my car stops running too.
Should we all be mad at the fuel companies for this too?
Seriously... if you don't pay for your car... you don't get a car....
It's not that difficult to understand.
And even then there will be times when something breaks on that $5K car. Then you have to choose between making the payment to keep a broken car from not being shut down or missing the payment to fix the car so that it runs while risking it being shut down.
You're fucked either way.
And if you're late/miss your low end job too often then you're fired.
If it was supermarkets refusing to give food to poor people unless the poor people provided the supermarkets with money, you would not see articles implying that the supermarkets are somehow exploiting the poor in doing so. And we certainly wouldn't see complaints that the supermarkets are keeping them from feeding their children, like the complaints that the car companies are keeping them from taking their children to school.
In our world, that's what money is for. Someone who refuses to let you have something if you don't pay is not out of line, even if you are poor and don't have the money. We might believe that the poor should get assistance, but that assistance comes from society in general; it is not done by demanding that supermarkets/car companies give away their products for free. and implying that they are exploiting the poor if they don't.
In the absence of a government-protected monopoly, if all sellers' costs decrease, competition will drive the price down over time. Ideally this is as true of automobile finance as it is of any other good or service. Or to which monopoly are you referring?
earn money before spending it
But It takes money to make money. How should someone go about making his first money after a major life change?
It seems most of these issues with people being in dangerous or emergency situations because their car won't start could be easily solved thanks to 911. For the specific case of being in a bad neighborhood, if there isn't an immediate threat, call a taxi instead.
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Because earning money without having a car to get to work is an option for 100% of the population.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
Couldn't you just disable the starter disabler? Throw in some 14 AWG wire that bypasses the starter interrupt mechanism... right?
Not, Attorney Robert Swearingen What a dream come true for the Ambulance Chasers...
Now we can have more people stopping in the middle of the road.
Strange. I've owned a car (several of them, actually) for a couple of decades and I never made a payment other than the first one I used to buy the car. I've also never paid over $3000 for a car. Something about learning to maintain it yourself and not having much money. Also something about how true ownership beats the pants off someone else having control of my stuff.
Guess as you get paid more, you gather this strange belief that everyone does the same crazy dumb shit that you're doing.
Cars are cash items due to severe depreciation and high maintenance costs. Can't afford to buy it cash? Don't. If you have under $1000 cash (the minimum I find drivable cars selling for) the last thing you need are payments! And if you need it for a job, make sure you pay the car off within a month or two (there's plenty of $2000 jalopies you can pick up at the various fleece-me-blind no-credit car lots that should be priced at $1000 cash).
If you buy a used car, it will run into problems. If you go to a mechanic with even the smallest of problems, they will quote you $500. If you ignore the problem, it will get worse and worse until it is unsafe to drive or the car simply doesn't start at all.
Learning to maintain a car isn't that hard but you can't do it on your apartment parking lot.
This isn't 25 years ago. I just got rid of my 12 year old car that had a blue book value of ~$1000. It wasn't the prettiest thing, the trunk latch needed a bit of fiddling to get to open as the spring in the external latch handle was worn out, it leaked oil (slowly, about a liter per month) and it had a few other minor issues with it, and someone had backed into the driver's side door in a parking lot, leaving a dent about the size of a dinner plate. I traded it in, but if I sold it privately I realistically would have gotten about $700-$800 for it on the open market based on comparables for sale in the paper and on Craigslist at the time.
The reason I got rid of it wasn't that it was unsafe or it wouldn't start or run, it was that to bring it back to 100% would cost a couple of thousand dollars that I figured would be better spent getting something newer and fancier that I can afford to do. It was still mechanically sound aside from the small oil leak and pretty much the most dependable car I've ever owned. If selling it privately wasn't such a hassle, I would have been happy to see it go to some college student or other person who needed good basic transportation for not too much money.
There are lots of cars in the $1000-$2000 range these days that are sound and dependable, their only sins are that they are old and cosmetically challenged.
To improve safety, insurers should jump on the self-driving car movement and instead of shutting the car down, simply re-program it to drive to the nearest used car dealer. Instant cash for the lucky (previous) owner! Savvy used car dealers will have a used bike section to equip the newly carless pedestrian.
Twenda Learning: Educational Apps that Engage.
1) Lenders - don't take on the risk. Just say "no." Instead, you are being greedy bastards.
2) Borrowers - don't take out a loan that you can't afford. Too many people are living too close to the edge of not being able to pay your bills. Sorry, drive something a little older with some minor issues that is much cheaper.
3) Running car shut off? I don't see how disabling the starter would do that. Apparently it does more. Which doesn't sound like a good idea.
4) Car wouldn't start because you missed a payment and you couldn't get your kid to medical treatment? Quit trying to play the emotion card. My decently maintained car has failed to start on a couple of times. Cars break. They can break at any time. Usually at the worst possible time. I had junkers in college that I thought I was lucky to have start. Miss too many payments and you might walk out to find your car missing. Also, if you stopped your car in a bad neighborhood, what exactly where you doing stopped there?
5) Virtual repossession seems like a cop out. If you aren't willing to send someone to go get the car, then you must not want it back bad enough. I don't want to hear how expensive it is. Your higher expenses are cancelled out by the higher interest rates you are charging. More greed.
This indignity is a symptom of a larger issue - hardships that have to be endured by poor. We should be asking how we can make sure they can afford transportation instead of getting outraged at sausage-making that is going on at the "no credit" used car lots. Perhaps we could invest into better public transportation and affordable housing in proximity to transportation hubs?
With that said, the choices here are likely a) much more expensive cars for at-risk debtors due to significant risk premium b) this indignity of being subjected to such devices and much lower costs. I am sure both options are available at the same time.
That is not what the pre-Big Deal economy tells us, actually. In fact, income tax became a thing because of the manufacturing industry's local advantage allowed them to drive up prices for equipment needed by the agricultural industry.
The dealer will buy a car at auction for $2000, then offer it for sale for $5000 but you HAVE to finance it through them. They will NOT let you pay cash.
They take advantage of the fact that there are a large group of people out there that are employed at low wage jobs who need a car to get to and from work.
They take $500 or $1000 down, or more if possible. Once you make a few payments, the dealer's initial cost for the vehicle is paid and if you don't make the payment, they repo the car and sell it to someone else for the same amount, financing the deal again.
These dealers can sell the same car over and over again without having to buy new inventory.
I like microcars
great analysis.
Auto loans to borrowers considered subprime, those with credit scores at or below 640, have spiked in the last five years with roughly 25 percent of all new auto loans made last year subprime,
the rise of --and lets call it what it is, predatory lending -- in the auto industry is due to a number of factors. Auto purchases from first time buyers, millennials, are down by 30% and a number of millenials by age 18 simply never applied for a drivers license. The bump from cash-for-klunkers, while nice, hasnt been able to produce sustained profit increases for dealers in light of more efficient, less failure prone cars that see service less often. congressional calls for austerity and government shutdowns have reduced consumer confidence after a crushing economic recession. And finally, with american wages at an alltime low and the wealth gap ever expanding, its hard to imagine many dealers can resist the allure of a sales model that results in a more expensive vehicle that nets a longer period of recurring revenue for lending agencies that are basically wings of the automotive brand (Honda Financial Services for example)
The problem is systemic. industry practices like this dont emerge until the dregs have been drained and the market is contracting due to uncontrollable economic greed. outlaw these business practices and reform business related legislation in general to include more acceptance of a post-consumer capitalism that no longer expands inexorably
Good people go to bed earlier.
Just opt out from the credit system
Without credit, how do you buy a roof to keep over your head? Cities tend to arrest people living in tents, and renting a house or apartment is borrowing.
After a year or two, you can buy a car using YOUR MONEY
So how do you commute to and from work without a car?
First car I bought was a beater, which lasted me pretty much just long enough to have saved up for a new car (I didn’t buy my first car until I was in my 20s, at which point I had a decent job).
That said, some people can’t do that, and car loans are reasonable if you have a good job and solid finances.
Scaled up, the same is true of mortgages. Sure, I could spend many years saving and maybe buy a house in cash. Or I can get a house now, and in exchange pay a shit tonne more over the long term but having the house the whole time.
Like most things, car loans are set up to really screw over the people who can afford it least. If you have a good job and credit rating, you get a low rate, no weird devices installed, and I imagine they’ll make a few calls before repossessing. If you have a shit job and poor credit rating, they jack up the interest rate, install these kinda devices, and will probably repo it one day while you are sitting in McDonalds having dinner.
Learning anything is hard. If it was trivial to fix your cars, only rich would pay others to do it for them. Just like cutting grass or doing your laundry. Unfortunately, modern automobile is much more complex device than ether your laptop or smartphone, with mechanic, pneumatic, hydraulic, electrical systems interfacing in whichever way.
Is it possible to maintain your own car? Well, yes, but you have to be intelligent and motivated, something that highly correlates with high income and status that generally enables you to pay others to work on your car.
I'm surprised these things haven't been hacked. My impression is that low income communities are often better than average at car repairs out of pure necessity and I would think a whole shadow industry would spring up, either outright disabling the devices or hacking them to the point where the "controller" couldn't tell that it wasn't working correctly (ie, installed and gathering data but unable to stop the car).
Even though I'd bet that the devices themselves are essentially bought outright by the people taking on these loans (and assumed to be obsolete or just unwanted once the loan had been satisfied), there seems to be a limit as to how complex they could be or how complex their installation could be, especially considering how complex modern cars are these days. It's almost impossible to replace your damn stereo on a lot of modern cars due to its integration.
I also wonder how many could be beat, even if it was only short term, by parking in underground or lower-level parking ramps where there is no cellular or GPS signal. I'm guessing they may auto-disable if they lose GPS or comms for some period of time.
I didn't read the actual article though because I don't feel like filling out a dang survey to unlock it, but in regards to the summary..
Not sure if it could be classified as terrorism, but disabling someones car remotely without warning as it is driving down the freeway sounds like attempted gross vehicular manslaughter.
but you HAVE to finance it through them. They will NOT let you pay cash.
I thought the legal tender law required a creditor to accept cash as a repayment of debt. So take the loan and pay it off before any interest accrues.
The less money you pay for a car the more of a gamble you're taking.
You might find the car goes for years or the engine might explode off the lot.
Sure you get at least a bit of a warranty, but it ends quickly
Sounds like a Philip K. Dick story...
While I'm not saying we should take the word of the lenders without verification, neither should we take the word of the people who are on the receiving end. They may very well not be telling the whole story. Some people who have financial troubles have them because of their own choices, but they rarely admit it.
I had a roommate like that. He was an alcoholic who wouldn't admit it or deal with it. He continually made bad choices in his life, but would never admit anything was his fault. In terms of finance he never paid things when they came due, he didn't pay until he was forced to. It was "due" according to him when they were about to shut off his service, or the like. So he'd get mad about his cellphone getting shut down when he was "a day late" by which he really mean "45 days past the due date, over 30 days late, and had 2 threatening letters to disconnect."
So before you go jumping to the defense of the people in the article, you might want to see what the terms of something like this is. I don't know, and I'm not saying it isn't a "you have to pay by the second it is due or we shut it off," but it also might well be a normal "It is due on day X, late on day X+15, and we shut it off on day X+20," and the people involved have just decided that "X+20" is the day it is "due".
With regards to #2, where in the US if you call 911 do you not get an ambulance? They are not taxpayer funded, but they are required to take ALL calls. If there's a medical emergency, you'll get transport and treatment, even if you lack the means to pay. That is part of the problem with high healthcare costs (the costs of people who don't pay get rolled in to the people who do) and an excellent argument for universal healthcare at least for emergency treatment.
If you're making payments, it's not
car.
The poor would indeed have a lot less problems if they just had more money.
Many things have been written on the subject, including one of the more informative articles on cracked.com, but the general idea is that when you don't have "buffer money", life turns into one gigantic clusterfuck. You need the car to get to work, you need money for the car, you need to get to work to get money, etc. Sometimes there are solutions (find someplace near by that you can walk to/public transportation/friends/etc) but sometimes there are not. Luckily lenders are willing to exploit this desperation with high interest loans, and are happy to treat you like shit the whole while because you ain't got a choice.
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Well, the idea is fine as a notion and my first thought was "that will end after the first lawsuit where somebody was injured as a result of a disabled vehicle". Then the example of the woman getting her daughter to the emergency room.
Well, this also goes to the healthcare issues in this country: if you NEED to go to ER then you NEED an ambulance. If you want to go to ER instead of urgent care or your normal doctor then that is another story.
I think the lenders have a right to do this since they own the car and can dictate the terms if you want the loan and vehicle. The actual implementation of the immobilizer needs some thought, or regulation, such that the vehicle can only be disabled while within a 1 mile radius of the home address, etc. There should also be some notification before hand to the debtor, at least an email or SMS saying "your payment has not been received and you are now 3 days late on your loan responsibility. The vehicle will be disabled on or after 3am PDT on 7/13/2004, please make payment arrangements prior to that time to avoid immobilization."
A few years ago I created a device like this. To cut down on costs they did not have a cell radio. My design, you typed in a code when you made your payment. That code was given to you by the dealer. Inside of that code was encoded a new experation date. Once you hit that date, your car would not start. The day or 2 before it would start giving a warning beep when you start the car. To help with the emergancy option, it had a button that you could press that would give you a 24 hour period that you car would work, even know it is expired. You could use that a defined number of times throught the loan (I think they were doing about 3, but I am not sure.) It was a fun little project to do.
Forced competition between even a handful of carriers - long considered oligopolistic - is driving down cell phone pricing plans considerably.
The USA has some of the highest cell phone costs in the developed world.
Let me rephrase: The cellular market in the United States is not yet at equilibrium. Competition is causing prices to become less "highest" over time and to gradually approach the more efficient price seen in other countries.
Many people (numbers vary) stop paying because the car does not run and it is too expensive or not worth repairing. The problem is that many poor are taken advantage by paying $6,000 for a car that is not worth $2,000. The poor that need a car to get to their job do not often have the cash or knowledge to take the car to an independent mechanic to have it checked out before purchase. I have seen "low cost" dealerships try to sell cars with cracked blocks and bad transmissions. This device is a waste of money. What dealers need is device to find the car when it needs to be repossessed which has its own safety issues.
Idiocracy coming true?
How does shutting off the main tool most people use to make money good for the credit company in the long term?
They don't want to repo a car which has lost 75% of its value, they want long term payers who never pay off their car in full.
If they want to decrease repos don't lend to people under 650 credit score.
Price changes due to competition are not immediate. A bidding war for buyers may take months or years to play out. But if budget airlines like Spirit start eating the lunch of Delta and United, the big airlines will eventually end up with no choice but to reverse this price hike.
I can understand the feature and why it would be seen as a necessity by some lenders given the difficulty, cost & danger involved in repossessing cars. But some kind of grace period (say ten days), a warning on the dash of some kind, and definitely some kind of limited use emergency override would seem to be in order.
Remarkably, last time I had auto issues in an apartment, I was able to remove the air intake housing, stick a rag in the air intake to keep the snow out, loosen the engine mount bolts, put a jack under the engine, remove the engine mount, take out the belt and the seized idler pully, replace the pully & belt, reinstall the engine mount, remove the jack, tighten the engine mount bolts and reinstall the air intake housing.
All in the apartment parking lot while it was snowing.
It's not too hard to do minor repairs and maintenance on a car while it's outside.
A bit of electrical talent you could in fact circumvent their little device.
I own a 1500$ car for seven years now and the only time it's failed to start is after I've left the headlights on.
PassTime, the manufacturer of the ignition disabling device released a statement today stating, "Our new video linkages allow you to watch the driver as you disable their car. Now with 50% more Schedenfreude!"
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
I'm glad the a company has the ability to hold people's financial obligations and promises to them! Sure, having a way to WARN THE BORROWER their car will shut off in 2 days, then 1 day, then a few hours would help avoid all these potentially scary situations. I applaud this, 100% (as long as they add the warning in the future).
What scum-of-the-earth (probably a "clever" MBA grad) came up with this idea? They should ferret out whoever is involved in creating and using this scheme and place them in a public pillory for two days with bread and water. Following that, place a tattoo on their forehead that says "I sell and finance cars".
is to take away the one thing that lets them get to work on-time.
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Start small. Change batteries, change belts, change brake pads (done in my apartment parking lot), change the muffler, swap starters/alternators. Pay attention to noises and look for problems. Buy a few tools as you need them. Gain confidence and work up to harder things.
Most of a car is much simpler than a laptop or smartphone. There are different types of systems, but most are simpler and more isolated than in a laptop. 80% of fixes are: figure out what is bad (figure it out or ask someone who knows), buy replacement, unbolt bad part, bolt in new part. A $10 manual will explains how to do a lot. Watch the youtube video if it isn't clear.
I replaced a front axle half-shaft on my car this weekend. Sounds like a big problem if you know nothing about cars and I'm sure it would be at least a few hundred dollars at a shop, but the part was $55, 3 nuts (1 bolt) to remove/replace. Done.
For safety reasons I don't think they should be able to disable a car while it's running. Worst case, it'll be delayed several hours (they have to stop for gas sooner or later).
Disabling a car without warning when the payment is three days late doesn't seem right. They should be required to give notice and wait a few days for the driver to arrange payment, work out glitches with their bank, etc.
Why not just pay cash for the car? I'll generalize and say that if you're paying car loans, you're doing it wrong.
There are edge cases, but pretty much anyone who can afford to qualify for a $250/month car loan can afford to find $500 to buy some junker that will probably last 3 months. After 3 months they'll be ahead $250. Again i'm generalizing, but my point remains.
For most people, most of the time, sucking it up and buying a cheap old car for cash will be cheaper for them than buying a car they can't afford. I define affording a car by "have the cash to pay for it", rather than by the seemingly more common definition of "could get a loan for it".
www.clarke.ca
So I had car with that device they disabled the day the payment was late. Being able figure out wiring I disabled the device then go 12volt ac to dc converte and plugged into the house. So then could not disable it. I drove the car to the place the next day to make the payment.
I don't know how I feel abou this. If you don't put gass in your car it will also stop. Not putting gass in your car could result in you being stuck in traffic or stalled in a bad neighborhood. These people know their cars are going to stop. They are just trying to push the system and see how long they can drive before they lose the car. As long as it is 100% predictable that the car will stop starting after a given period then I am fine with this.
you actually think they will lower their rates.
I paid $1000 for my Jeep and while it looks like crap runs great and has been rock solid reliable, even when it is -35F outside. You can find reliable cheap vehicles but you have to sacrifice some things like looks. This does require knowing what you are looking at and being responsible which a lot of people don't want to do. You can also find a lot of $3k-$5k lemons as well. The 2 cheapest vehicles I purchased were $150 and $350 and the $150 one was reliable for 6 until it developed a fuel leak and the $350 one ran great for 4 years until one of the fuel pumps went out. In both cases I knew what I was getting and got far more use out of them than I thought I would. So even on the really cheap side of things there are reliable vehicles but you do need to know what you are getting your self into.
Time to offend someone
You can buy a warranty that covers major repairs (engine/transmission) for under $1000, and that warranty will last for two years (How do I know? Every time I look at used cars at a dealer, I'm harassed to buy the stupid warranty--I suppose they make lots of money from it). 6 easy payments of $333, and then 18 months of major expense free driving.
There's just no excuse to have payments except "That dented rusty shitbox isn't good enough for me!".
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Do NOT tolerate this at all. Once you start down that path, it will never stop. Your only solution is to ignore any contract and/or law and disable it. The problem is learning how to disable those devices.
I pay cash for my cars, and always will because I have a policy of never paying interest on anything. But my car will always be under MY control. And I assure you, if a bank can disable a car, some cop can do that too.
I can see it now. You are driving down a highway with your kids, and some cop with an attitude decides to simply shut off your engine, which also locks your stearing wheel, and you get in a wreck and your kids get killed. If they want me to pull over, they can turn on their damn lights.
...of these goddamn scumbag banks getting away with this kind of garbage...
People who get subprime loans are financially challenged. They probably don't have a savings account.
Your suggestion reminds me of the Doonesbury comic where the lady from 0.1%er background says of people losing their homes, "Why don't they move to their country homes?"
Need I add, "You insensitive clod!"
From the youtube clips (of car repairs, or not) I've watched, motivation can make up for any intelligence defect nearly 100% of the time. :)
Indeed. You can also buy cheap code readers that will give you hints about problems that arn't as obvious as "loud chirping sound when turning left". The kind of stuff that actually demands regular maintenance is indeed very home-maintainable (brakes, belts, fluids, batteries, etc). It's not until you get into complex tuning problems that the whole "cars are computer controlled" thing becomes a real problem.
When the debt collector comes a knockin', just keep the car running. If it works by preventing the car from starting, just don't turn it off. I'd imagine the extra cost in fuel you'd incur by constantly idling while parked is preferable to the hassle of having your car disabled and subsequently having to pay a fee to have it 're-enabled). Once you've made the (late) payment resume normal vehicle operation.
We are heading toward that good old English system of tipstaffs and sponging houses.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
I had to replace my junker daily driver a few years back, in the middle of the market crash when cash was tight all over, and gas was expensive as hell. I managed to buy a $2500 1990 Toyota Corolla that was in excellent shape inside and out with working A/C, from a regular Toyota dealership no less. I drove it for a year with no issues until I sold it for the same price to a young enlisted guy that needed some wheels. I would bet that it is still out there somewhere today provided it hasn't been wrecked in an accident. I only sold it because we had to buy a larger family vehicle and I then got the wifes newer Corolla.
The implication of this summary, anyway, is that it's somehow unreasonable for lenders to want to get paid?
My guess is that if a person with a credit score north of 800 misses a payment, they don't shut their car off? I wonder why?
The FACT is that there is an entire underclass in this country that skate by living above their means hanging one vendor after another out 30, 60, 90 days...begging for more time, getting a payment plan....not paying that, etc. Hell, I've heard people say with a straight face that they borrowed money (or ran up credit cards) with no intention of ever paying it back.
That's irresponsible, and causing lenders to go to extraordinary lengths to protect themselves.
Some people have hard circumstances, no doubt. But nobody's ENTITLED to own a car. If you can't really afford it, don't borrow as if you could. Oh, and pay your bills. Then you don't have to worry if you're going to be able to get your daughter to the emergency room.
-Styopa
That's what the auto parts store parking lot is for. Then you don't have to drive to get the parts. They may even have loaner tools for you.
I've done alternators, belts, brakes, and other minor stuff in my apartment parking lot. It wasn't a problem.
Best thing is to never take loans. Don't unless it is absolutely necessary and urgent. Sure, interest may sometimes be lower than inflation. You may think you are getting a great deal. But you are also creating an obligation for yourself, limiting your options in the future, and slowly painting yourself into a corner. Your income to pay that debt could suddenly vanish in the future due to all sorts of factors, but debt is not something you can cancel on a whim like a tv subscription.
If you really absolutely need a loan for that car or other expensive piece of equipment, then just get a regular loan from a bank, and buy the thing outright. Don't fall for a dealer's payment in installments plan.
The reason is simple.
Situation 1: You have a car, but the car is still property of whoever sold it to you, until the entire amount has been paid off.
Situation 2: You have a debt with the bank. You are also the legal owner of the new car.
The distinction between these two situations may seem largely academic but is an important one. If you are the legal owner of the item, you will be in a better position when dealing with premature breakdowns and demanding dealer/manufacturer warranty. Good luck getting warranty on a car that's still owned by the shop. The dealer also can't take away or disable your car on missed payments as they are not the ones holding your debt, which is the bank. Banks are generally more tightly regulated than most other businesses.
Note. I'm not a lawyer, and I do not live in the US, but I suspect that these things work very similar in most places. I learned this in high school.
I disagree with this line of thinking. People are not poor by choice. Almost always there is some underlying condition, sometimes outside the control of the individual. This underlying condition will also impact ability to help themselves.
Just consider how feasible would it be for a single mom juggling two minimum wage jobs to also find time, motivation, and capacity to learn how to fix the car. I am sure there are super-humans out there that could pull this off, but such people never stay poor for very long.
If only there was some sort of vehicle designed specifically for medical emergencies. Oh well.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
If the dealer writes a lot of loans on cars that borrowers walk away from because the car isn't worth it, the bank and the dealer end up having a problem. Seems like a self-correcting problem.
I really hate this thinking that there is something special about modern automobiles. The biggest differences between "old" and modern vehicles is modern ones have computers that either work or don't and have emission systems. When it comes to emission systems just replace them, and computers drastically simplify things since you aren't having to play around with a distributor and carburetor. Oil changes, spark plugs, most suspension work, belts (easier with the modern serpentine belt over the old multiple v-belts), hoses, filters, etc. are the same on modern vehicles as they are on old ones. Another benefit is modern vehicles with computers don't have tons of vacuum lines running all over the place that get dried out, leak, and make your car run like shit. From a maintenance and repair perspective even high end vehicles aren't special, the knowledge I gained repairing and maintaining my first vehicle ('85 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme) is still mostly applicable to my current one ('02 BMW 325i) with the only real differences being I don't have to fuck around with that shitty electronic carburetor the Olds had when it gets cold. I still have to do brakes, suspension work, plugs, oil, filters, etc but they are basically the same just in slightly different spots with different sized bolts and torque specs.
Time to offend someone
If you buy a used car, it will run into problems. If you go to a mechanic with even the smallest of problems, they will quote you $500
I think that you perhaps have a lot to learn about cars.
EVERY car has problems. They're mechanical things. Mechanical things break and wear out. If you're smart, and buy reliable things like Toyota Corollas, etc, they have very very few problems. If you're insistent on buying notoriously unreliable cars, then you're likely to have more problems. The idea that new cars are problem-free is absurd, and it's not likely that paying the huge new car price just to avoid paying potential mechanic's fees is a financially smart move, ever.
I don't know what kind of "mechanics" you go to, but I haven't had a +$500 repair in well over a decade. It sounds like you're A. buying bad cars and B. don't know enough about cars to know if a mechanic is ripping you off or not.
I don't respond to AC's.
Somebody will suffer harm and a law suit will be a block buster. One problem that it is not a repossession at all. It is a disabling or tampering. They are trying to skirt the repo laws and it will cost them big time. I doubt that even a contract that spells out the right to disable the vehicle would meet the law as too many third parties would be adversely effected.
$5000 ambulance ride, stellar solution for someone who already can't afford car payments!
Oh give me a break! This will play up to the idiot morons out there, brainwashed through 30 years of capitalism bad, socialism good. You have people who are IRRESPONSIBLE with money, can't/won't get a job, can't keep a job, no skills, can't afford anything (except they have money for tattoos, piercings, alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, 2-3-4 children) and they want a car with a piss-poor credit score. So, they are given the opportunity to prove themselves, but, there is a clause...you don't pay, you don't drive, and they have the GALL to act surprised when they forget/stop/refuse to make the payments, THAT YOU SIGNED ON A CONTRACT, the company makes it where they cannot use the car? I have worked hard all of my life, made payments on time, sacrificed not buying "things" because of other obligations, kept credit card bills in line and paid them off and that is why my credit score is in the low 800's and I pretty much can buy any house, car or something on credit with a good rating. Once again, the morons out there who live with no regard to personal responsibility want ME to be the bad guy and once again, give THEM a break. Screw that! Life is hard, and the quicker you LEARN that, the better off everyone will be!
You can thank cash for clunkers as a direct result in the very recent pass as to why used cars are so expensive now days. In addition the program had very if any effect on what it was suppose to do other than make used car segment un-affordable to young people starting out and people of lower income. When I started I had a car that ran for ever for less 300, now your lucky to get something running for less 2K and even going a little over 2K your still going to be lucky if it runs without major repairs.
Cars are different than 30 years ago, when 100k miles was a lot. My car is 17 years old, has over 300k miles, and is somewhat cosmetically challenged. But it has never not started, needed to be towed, or needed a fix that couldn't wait until a convenient time. We've had it since new - what can I say, we were young and stupid. It needs more maintenance now then when it was new - surprise, some parts wear out every 100-200k miles. I haven't spent more than $400 a year on it yet, and usually only spend about $200 per year.
I'll stop driving it when it has a major failure or becomes unreliable, but there has been no indication that that will bee soon.
What is wrong with buying a used car for $500 - $1800? All cars eventually break down including new ones so stop getting loans for new and expensive cars if you have terrible income or none at all. Ppl buy shit that they can't really afford and bitch later when the shit hit's the fan.
Blaming capitalism is stupid. US govmint is so far in debt, below inflation returns it has to create thin air money (QE electronic counterfeit) to buy its own debt in the ruse of solvency. No legitimate lenders is lending Obama the trillion+ per year.
Capitalism is doing just what your bankrupt govmint wants, bad credit, cannot pay, no job, can't save, no problem, we have a loan for you in the modern debt fraud economy of corruption.
And dumb founded people wonder why the economy is lousy. Yet media, politicians and so called experts do not disclose the devaluation of US money to the rest of the world. Pull up a 10 year chart, compare the Chinese Yuan to USD, as USA, your being devalued for debt corruption, govmint fraud on currency, and losing value.
But mass denial of reality is nothign new.
Mary Bolender, who lives in Las Vegas, needed to get her daughter to an emergency room, but her 2005 Chrysler van would not start. Bolender was three days behind on her monthly car payment. Her lender remotely activated a device in her car's dashboard that prevented her car from starting. Before she could get back on the road, she had to pay more than $389, money she did not have that morning in March.
Okay, let me get this straight, she had a $389 monthly payment (though that probably included late charges) on a 9 year old vehicle? (Maybe it didn't happen this year, but if so, then why did it take over a year for this to become a story?) I'm sure she didn't get it new (when would have they installed the device?), but that's a pretty big chunk of dough for a 9 year old vehicle.
But we all know there's a reason for most people who have bad credit scores, and that's because for whatever reason, they can't resist spending all the money they get and then some, buying stuff on credit that they can't afford, the big TV, the big car, saving nothing, then it's all panic when they get behind on payments.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Learning to maintain a car isn't that hard but you can't do it on your apartment parking lot.
Depends on the car. A 1960's VW Beetle? Yes you can. With a smattering of hand tools. An NB Mazda Miata with a proper (manual) transmission? Yes you can. With a jack, some jack stands and a smattering of hand tools. An overly complicated front-wheel-drive monstrosity with a painfully complicated hydraulically actuated automatic transmission (IE: Every GM W-body ever produced)? Nope.
They can't repossess the ride.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
I just would not do that. I've used public transportation and I've moved in order to be within walking distance of a crappy job because it was all I could get. I understand that isn't going to work for everyone. I'm just saying I would not do this.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
It ain't no joke... if you don't pay that note!!
I question why a single mom with no job has a $389 monthly payment instead of buying a 8 year old used car she could actually afford.
It's crazy that I pay less than that for a brand new Mercedes. You have much more negotiating power when writing a check for the whole car is an real option and you can bring a laptop to put their obfuscating bullshit into Excel and get an apples-to-apples comparison against the other dealers' offers on the spot.
Being poor is really fucking expensive I know that from having lived it. You don't have the power, the tools, or the room to negotiate. She's paying an extra $200/month in risk premiums because she's likely to default, but that extra $200/mo is making that default much more likely to happen. It's a nasty feedback loop, and there aren't good solutions.
Perhaps she was driving more car than she "should" have been driving, according to some outside observer, but being poor is debilitating. If you hear "no" enough times when applying for a job/loan/school/etc., then you'll accept *anything* the first person that says "yes" is offering, no matter how egregious the terms. At some point, you'll sign anything to get off the emotional the roller coaster, because you just can't get your hopes up one more time.
Miss a payment and that fancy application code I built for your website that you run for a huge corporation stops working.... hmmmm.... if only I wasn't so damn ethical...
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
There's an Instructable for that:
http://www.instructables.com/i...
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
They'll be able to lower loan costs? Good luck with that. Trickle-down economics, much?
it leaked oil (slowly, about a liter per month)
speak English, please.
Smart buyers read the Notice to Borrowers Required by Federal Law (or foreign counterparts) before signing and tell the dealer in no uncertain terms, "I'll make you a deal: You can drop this prepayment penalty and sell me the car for $xxxx. Or you can keep it and the car." In any case, I don't see the point of a prepayment penalty because if the debtor prepays, the creditor has the money back to lend to someone else.
Just opt out from the credit system [...] Get rid, and stay rid of all debt [...] Use cash or debit, even checks, for all transactions
Without credit, how do you buy a roof to keep over your head?
Who the fuck buys a house with a credit card?
Where did I say "card"? I was replying to Rob_Bryerton's recommendation to live without credit at all, card or otherwise.
...from having your car repoed? Don't incur the debt if you can't afford the payments. Or talk to your lender if you need a few days extension. The real issue here is that too many people ignore the payment request instead of using communication to come to an equitable agreement.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
if the payment is late the car should just lock the doors with the people inside and deliver them to the nearest debtors prison.
Far too many times this will be the claim. No matter what color the borrower and lender might be.
The GP is referring to the common provision in many rental agreements that specifically states you won't do vehicle repair on the property. They usually exempt changing flat tires. I ignored it and did all the work I wanted on my motorcycles, usually on summer weekends with a beer (literally a shadetree mechanic, did it underneath the shade of a tree). But I suspect they would have objected to serious work on a car.
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
In Virginia, I forget if it was state or county law, but my local Autozone or Advance has a sign in their parking lot citing an ordnance prohibiting you from doing work on your vehicle.
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
Isn't that the entire point of Software As A Service?
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Ok I get that the loan company perhaps shouldn't turn off the car randomly for a missed payment if it puts the driver at risk (for whatever reason). But I have to ask, how is this different from a car shutting down randomly when the driver missed a gas fillup? How is it different from a burner phone shutting down when the user misses adding minutes to the phone? If the user agreed to a high risk loan (or whatever they're calling it these days) they've agreed to what is essentially a "pay as you go" arrangement. You have to make a payment in order to continue driving, just as you have to continue to pay to put gas in the car, and you have to continue to buy minutes for your phone, or put more money in the account from which your debit card draws, or any other pay as you go scheme.
On the one hand, an argument could be made that turning off a car for nonpayment could be dangerous. (I happen to agree.) But on the other hand, it's essentially pay-as-go and works the same as any other pay-as-go scheme. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
They will be pilloried for not helping the poor, at best, or be brought up on charges of racism (equal opportunity lending) at worst (no matter how unfounded or what race the borrowers might actually be).
" Because fuck banks, we can get more votes from people who don't like paying bills and want free cars."
Well, this is Slashdot, so this is about right for lots of people here.
Big stink on that one.
As draconian and awful as this is, it's very likely that there are people who would not have gotten loans at all otherwise, and will not in the future.
IF the bill is due on the 1st, and there's language in the contract stating that "Time is of the essence of this contract" - then the bill is LATE as of 12:01AM on the 2nd.
You're given notice in the contract that there's a starter interlock device, and if you're late, it'll be engaged and the car won't run.
Location doesn't matter. What you're doing doesn't matter. You don't OWN the vehicle - you're renting to own it and if you don't pay, you don't get to use it. They'll probably send some guys to pick it up.
If this bothers you - you have options:
1) Pay your damn bills on time.
2) Pay cash for the vehicle.
3) Take mass transit where they have that available
4) Borrow a vehicle from a friend
5) Rent from Zip Cars or some such firm (if they have that available where you live)
No one gives a shit if you're in a bad neighborhood (define 'bad'), driving on the highway, stopped at a light, have to take your kid to the hospital, etc. Pay your damn bills and stop whining.
No but they will garnish your check.
1) Payment Assurance Devices aren't new. They have been around for ~18 years. Most are installed on Start wires, so they cannot disable a vehicle, but can only prevent it from starting.
2) Most systems include an 'Emergency Mode' good for 24 hours at a time, no matter how far into default you are.
3) Most systems include varying 'grace' periods so that they comply with various state laws. The first disablement generally is WAY longer than the second (by law).
4) The sub-prime industry mostly does not sell junkers. The #1 reason for people to stop making payments is because the cars stop. They now generally sell new or relatively new cars (low end).
5) Not all sub-prime borrowers are poor. There are payment assurance devices on Lexus, Ferrari, Land Rover and other high end cars. Bad credit does not always mean poor.
6) Lenders love this because sub-prime borrowers with payment assurance devices pay high interest rates but have low default rates. Lobby your state for better usury laws. For credit cards, too.
7) Sub Prime borrowers don't hate these devices as much as you might think. They know they owe the payments and are remarkably tolerant of the devices. Often the buyer is getting a better car or getting a car only because they agree to have the device installed. The devices often act as a security system for the buyer/borrower as well as a payment assurance device.
8) In many states the borrower/buyer is paying for the payment assurance device in addition to the car - with interest. Some states (northern and western ones) don't allow this.
9) car loans can be as high as 30% per year in some states (southern), depending on the age of the vehicle.
10) the buyer/borrower always signs consent forms prior to purchase/lease that they know about and approve of the use of the devices.
Most of those "warranty" plans are scams. They have exceptions and most cases aren't worth the $1000 you paid.
Let's put this on private aircraft too. What could possibly go wrong?
Single mothers, the new group for whom there can be no criticism. Enjoy your time while it lasts, ladies, this Sunday in the WaPo it was all about people who can't decide if they're male or female...
Yeah, except that I get hired to write the code that other people sell as software as a service. I need to invent software as a service as a service services.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
If you buy a used car, it will run into problems. If you go to a mechanic with even the smallest of problems, they will quote you $500. If you ignore the problem, it will get worse and worse until it is unsafe to drive or the car simply doesn't start at all.
You need to learn how to talk to mechanics.
It's easy to get simple problems fixed cheaply (in Australia, the land of high prices I might add) if you're polite, likeable even if you dont know what you're on about. A few months back I got a power steering belt replaced for $50 ($20 for the belt, $30 for 1/2 hours labour).
The key is to give the mechanic the information of what exactly went wrong. Symptoms, time, place, what you did and so forth. Like the rest of us, mechanics are magical beings that instantly know what went on from your vauge description of "car dont run right" so details people. Also give the mechanic a modicum of respect, after all you came to them for help. So shake his hand and dont look down on him just because he works with his hands.
That being said, I can do a lot of things myself such as replace brakes (pads, rotors and callipers) but still pay someone else to do it because 1. they're faster at it; 2. they're better at it and 3. It saves me some time. Back when I had more time (and a much cheaper 10 yr old Honda Civic) I would. Things like checking oil and fluid levels is a must for any car owner though, but sadly too many people rely on roadside assistance rather than checking the oil and coolant once a month.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
"...or for a single female at night" ... Where all the equal rights feminists pointing out the inequality of this blatantly sexist policy!!
And still posters on /. try to justify these abominations. When will you people get it into your thick heads?
Remote kill switches are a BAD THING.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
If you haven't paid for it, it's not "your car", it's the banks, and they have the right to do whatever they want to it. Don't like that? Save up and buy a used car with cash.
There are two types of people that have bad credit, those that have had unfortunate life events such as major injury or illness or job loss, etc. and credit criminals. Those that never pay anyone ever. There is a world of difference in the credit profiles even if the credit scores are the same. These places that utilize these paydex type devices generally sell to the credit criminals because those down on their luck still have a chance of getting a decent vehicle with a real bank who will only finance so much loan to value.
I feel absolutely no guilt or regret selling to these types of people under these terms. Everyone of them has a story of how it wasn't their fault. Right. So the accounts in collection status for AT&T for 1000, Sprint, for 1200, Verizion for 800 are an accident? Direct TV is owed 400, comcast 600. Your last two cars were repossed after a few months and you have multiple civil judgements for various landlords and all your credit cards have been charged off with first payment never received is a mistake right? You have no money down but both of you have had half a pack of cigarettes each while you've been here.
Spending priorities:
1. Cigarettes
2. Beer
3. Cell Phone
4. Cable
5. Rent/Car (alternating every other month to avoid eviction or reposession)
6. Food (yes I have seen many give up a meal for cigarettes or beer)
Oh and the area I am in is 90% White for those that may be thinking otherwise.
I guarantee you this is the same story no matter where you go.
The Scottsman Prodigy commercial ice machine has built in functionality to disable the ice machine if the leasing company isn't paid.
People move away from parents because there are no jobs in the industry for which they have trained in their parents' home town. For example, someone raised in Fort Wayne, Indiana, would probably have to move to Austin, Seattle, or Boston in order to enter the video game industry. Besides, the stereotype among Slashdot users is that continuing to live in one's parents' basement after graduation is shameful.
As it happens I have an aquaintance (solo mother, wants to work but needs a car to do so etc) who was exactly in this pickle - she had a car with one of these imobilizers installed (The thieves she bought it from, btw, are AQUA CARS), got behind on her payments - lost her job. Helping her through it was an eye opener. One would have throught that these imobilizers would reduce the cost of the loan - no - about 30% per annum + SHE PAYS THE COST OF THE IMOBILISER, AND THE REMOVAL IF SHE EVER WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PAY IT. [ The inflation rate in NZ is about 2-3%, credit card usury is just under 20% if you are late ]
Here the kicker - When she purchased the car she paid 8K for it (the cheapest car on the lot - it was actually worth about 4k). When they sold it, less then 1 year later, they sold it for 2k. She paid them $3.5k over the 1 year she had it, and then they repossess the car, and sell it - CLAIMING SHE OWES THEM $10K net. So no car and an additional $8k debt. Luckily the disputes tribunal eventually ruled in her favour and wiped the debt. [ I've converted the amounts to approx US dollars ]
Of-course, there is another side to this story. I Loaned her the money for a cheap run arround (interest free), and try 3 ways to Sunday to explain the debt trap trap. Not has she not paid me anything, but she jumped right in and increased her debt with another set of Shysters offering personal finance at 30% (not against the car - although one of the first things she asked me to do is release the car as security, get paid out so she could borrow more with Instant Finance). You can't fix stupid and no good deed goes unpunished.
Yes, there will always be some cases that might be a shame, but in most cases it's a great tool..
Personally I really don't believe the story of the system switching off the engine while driving.
But 3 days late on a payment is a bit soon IMHO for such a measure. But then again, it IS in the contract the person signed with the company..
And well, car not starting when she needed to go to the emergency room, what would she have done if it wasn't the system, but a real malfunction.. And wouldn't it have been cheaper to just call a cab if it really was an emergency (or an ambulance)..
Ofcourse people to which something like this happens always have a story.. Just pay the damn loan, you're in exactly the same position as when you wouldn't have a car at all..
So I don't have any sympathy for people like this, they knew what would happen if they didn't pay on time (but as I said, I think 3 days is a bit too soon, IMHO it should give a warning (from the first day) that within a week the car won't start if payment hasn't been received)..
I for one would like to thank this service with my life.
Due to this woman not being able to start her car there was one less highly emotionally compromised driver on the road. Because we all know when there's a medical emergency we will do whatever we can to follow all laws including speeding, overtaking, stopping at lights etc.
It's almost like there needs to be a service for getting people to an emergency centre quickly which can legally do the above things....
Ever heard about buses and trains? I.e. public transportation.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I was under the impression that substitution effects caused prices to be more elastic for a single firm than for the industry as a whole. If you have two firms selling something for $100 and a third selling substantially the same thing for $90, the third is going to draw customers away from the first two. I'm aware that Spirit's service is more "a la carte", so to speak, but that's like two firms selling a package for $100 and the third selling components for $60, $20, and $10.
I've changed out a turbo in an apartment parking lot. Granting it's not a motor swap, it's not a radiator ether.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
This has been around for years already.
Yea, it's going to be tough, fuel economy will go down considerably once late-payers leave their car running 24x7.
In related news, Dante's "Inferno" placed the money lenders closer to the Devil Himself than murders. Ah, how the times have changed. Money, money, money!
Someone could freeze to death this winter.
Infants could bake in the sun....
Head out stop to put snow chains on try and restart the car...
The liability of this is murky. The local police just arrested a mailbox thief.
One payment missed by three days clearly lacks due diligence in communicating
with the driver.
Not all cars are driven by the person making the payments so this sort
of action does present some serious risk.... to people not in the loop
as it were.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
Pay up deadbeats!
So, I have a friend who works for a car dealer (huge, national automotive group). The parent company also owns a bank that "specializes in bankruptcy loans". Apparently, the way it was explained to me, is that banks love these loans -- they are given to people who clearly have had issues with money in the recentish past, and bank (pun regretfully intended) on the fact that there will be an increased opportunity to repossess the car. This allows them to pocket the money that has already been paid and also resell the car for near to what it was sold for already.
With this technology fucking people over (yes, I know adults should be responsible and pay their bills. However, shit happens), there is likely an increased chance that those that are actually trying to meet their obligations end up losing wages, and possibly their jobs, due to a sudden loss of transportation, snowballing the repo/resell angle.
I don't feel sorry for the deadbeats at all. They promise to make their payments, they sign the papers, they drive off the lot. Then they skip out and drive up borrowing expenses for those who do honor their debit obligation. Let them walk through a tough neighborhood - perhaps that will give them time to think about what an "obligation" is for an adult.
So "Single Females" have some special, extral rights?
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