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Farmers Demand Right To Fix Their Own Dang Tractors (modernfarmer.com)
According to a report, farmers are demanding the right to fix their tractors. The report reminds us that owners of tractors aren't allowed to fix them, thanks to a set of laws designed to protect software intellectual property. The world's largest tractor maker, John Deere, in fact, says that people who purchase tractors don't really own them and instead they are getting an "implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle." Some farmers are voicing their opinion against these laws. From the article: What this has meant is that tractor owners can't repair their own tractors -- and if they do, they're in violation of the DMCA. So, if a machine stops working, its owner can't pop the hood, run some tests, and find out what's going on; he or she is legally required to take the tractor to a service center (one owned by the manufacturer, since that's the only entity allowed to analyze the tractor's issues). This can be expensive and time-consuming, and more to the point, unnecessary -- at least according to farmers in several states, who are lobbying to force tractor manufacturers make their diagnostic tools available to independent repair shops and owners. Not everyone is on the farmers' side here; some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers, potentially landing them in trouble. But the tractor owners disagree, annoyed that their tractors are treated differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop.
For US
So basically John Deere is reserving the right to cancel any of these licenses, impound the farmer's tractors, and put him out of a job?
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
Remember it's the Clintons that signed DMCA into law.
For that pair of lawyers, everything is for sale.
How enforcable is an "implied license"? How can we know what words are in it, to enforce?
I strongly sympathize with the farmers in this case, but then I've been fixing mechanical things my entire life, both personally and professionally. This bullshit has crippled a large chunk of the aftermarket and the auto industry, and now its spreading to here..????? Excuse me, but why would I pay 5- grand for a tractor that I'm only licensing? Are they gona do *all* the maintenance on it for the 50 grand they are charging? If no then they can go pound sand.
(General -purpose row crop 50-90 PTO HP 4x4 w/remote hydraulic and a bucket)
C|N>K
Who gives a shit apart from the owners of the tractor makers?
"Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
They are trying to subvert the foundations of capitalism - ownership.
They are abusing the DMCA - a badly designed law that was created to stop IP theft but has instead become a weapon of fraud to trick people into paying ownership prices for what in reality is merely renting.
It's like if you go to buy a house and you pay $800k, up front, expecting to be able to get a mortgage, leave the place to your kids, and sell it if you have to, only to be told later that you merely rented the place for your life time.
Fraud is fraud - whether it is done by outright lies, or instead by hidden fine print in contracts, that no one but lawyer reads
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
the farmers, should they have to sue, have precedent on their side. Car manufacturers were forced to open up their diagnostic codes for car owners and allow third party connections. That seemed to work out the best for everyone. Showing once again that short-sighted, for profit motivations may not be the best for the market.
The world's largest tractor maker, John Deere, in fact, says that people who purchase tractors don't really own them and instead they are getting an "implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle."
If this is true, then why does the manufacturer not have an obligation to repair the tractor for free?
/. refugees on Usenet: news:comp.misc
Don't reward bad behavior. While the law does need to be changed, the other avenue is to stop buying John Deere tractors. There are several other options. Case IH seems to be more than willing to supply repair manuals for their equipment.
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
...would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers
bullshit. Speaking as someone who grew up on a farm, almost no independent farmer "buys" a tractor. Its all leased seasonally or yearly, depending on what/when you need it. These manufacturers have a constant stream of interest payments and down payments coming from their own financial lending firms.
A Claas-Axion, used: is $140,000. assuming youve got a lot more than 100 acres, youre going to need a xerion...which again used is more than 200 grand. Do you want to harvest those crops too? you wont be buying Claas because theyre harder than hens teeth to find. John Deere is going to run you through the ringer for another $335,000 "9 series" combine that will refuse to start for almost any code.
so in short, no one on a farm owns a tractor and if they do its 50 years old. Youre hearing more about the DMCA iissue because shops are wising up and refusing to carry replacement and repair parts, at the behest of people like Deere that want to move more new stock in a car dealership model.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Ok, NOW I've heard everything...maybe not I guess it can get weirder, but there is NO such thing as an 'implied license'. Hell, the standard software contract license & T's&Cs are 'open to legal debate' (e.g. if they are legal or not) and these guys want to claim there's an 'implied license'...wow, just wow.
Someone needs to reverse-engineer a John Deere tractor and start selling tractor-servicing tools and software on the darknet. This will force John Deere to either lower there costs to compete, or lose oodles of money "securing" their software and fighting hackers.
You don't want to give your car's manufacturer an excuse to do the same thing!
(Yes, I know they're half-way there already... but it's only HALF WAY)
I don't think farmers are trying to mod their tractors. I think they are trying to repair them without going to John Deere. Which means the tractor is probably out of warranty. Farmers are really cheap people and if they still had some free repair warranty service available to them they'd be using that instead of screwing aroud with hacking into their tractors.
While it would be nice if this just goes to court and somehow weakens the DMCA. I suspect that congress will just write up a quick and dirty exception for the ag lobby and slap a band-aid on the problem to make the farmers happy.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
"...Not everyone is on the farmers' side here; some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers, potentially landing them in trouble...."
Since we're talking about John Deere here, let me point out the fact that their global revenue almost doubled in the last ten years. In short, fuck your concerns about them being "in trouble".
"...But the tractor owners disagree, annoyed that their tractors are treated differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop."
For now, cars can be serviced at any independent shop. Let me know how that changes when Tesla becomes the dominant force on the road today, or when autonomous automobile laws force people to maintain their vehicles according to specific guidelines designed to maximize revenue for manufacturers and authorized support centers.
It's not too hard to clearly see where the concept of ownership is headed in the future.
If the tractor mfr's want to go this route, why not just do a lease? Pretty much same terms apply, and they do the maintenance.
The EPA cares. John Deere is exploiting and EPA demand that the engine software be protected from tampering. Yes, the media is ignoring that this is largely a response to a federal mandate that has no practical benefit for anyone.
I can no longer repair my washing machine myself, it uses a proprietary modem to generate tones to transfer diagnostic information. I cannot legally dissect those tones thanks to the DMCA. Very slippery slope ahead
or buy something made in canada, where they don't have a goverment paid for by corporate america.
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/nothing-drms-like-deere-farmers-cant-fix-tractors/
Can't the farmers just buy another tractor from another company? Speak with your wallet if the politicians aren't helping.
If you don't buy the tractors with bells and whistles, the manufacturers will be forced to make what you want.
DMCA is evil. But we all knew that from the get go. People late to the game knows that now.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
This one is on the Clintons. If Republicrat was meant to be the whole mix of D and R you've got it about right. It's all one party that uses two flavors of spin to screw 99.99% of us.
Japanese farming equipment is very good quality and reasonably priced.
I'm sure it is. Doesn't mean you can get parts for it quickly and easily though. One huge advantage to buying from a company like Deere is that they have an excellent service and parts network almost everywhere in the US. There is a Deere dealer within relatively easy driving distance just about anywhere you go in the US. Buy from a no-name and you might have a harder time of it. Of course if Deere insists on shooting themselves in the foot like this then that might become less of an issue.
Some of the Chinese stuff is very good now too.
Same problem as above but worse.
Copyright abuse is a bipartisan issue.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
What makes you think this is a Republican and not a Democrat issue? Stop with your brain-dead bullsh!t.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
These farmers are not trying to modify their source code for these repairs. Farmers just want to be able to pull a code, replace broken sensors / actuators, and reset the codes so they can grow your food.
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
When I bought my last 4x4 SUV (FJ Cruiser) part of the deal was a full set of dealer repair manuals. Most of the dealers I went to did not want to sell them to me. The one that did, and was willing to order me a vehicle to the specs I wanted not just what ever they had on the lot, got my business. While the manuals themselves ran me $600, they have paid for themselves a couple times over since I could do most of the minor work myself. Half the battle is just knowing where all the damn screws are located to get a part off. A must have if you are going to modify and work on your own vehicle.
A few examples of what I'm talking about.
AC repair. Dealer $160 labor, parts $350. DIY $50.
Cabin air filter Dealer $50, DIY $6.
OEM trailer hitch install $350. DIY $120.
OEM alarm. Dealer $275. DIY $0. Changed setting in ECM.
Plastic body panel replacement. Dealer $500 parts and labor. DIY $100
Seatbelt warning bell. Dealer didn't want to turn it off, claimed it was impossible. DIY $0 changed setting in ECM. Fucking priceless never having to listen to that piece of shit ding again.
Soon enough, there will be a market for softwareless, or open tractors...
There is already one company here (Hungary) trying to do something like that, albeit for different reasons.
The vast majority of repairs are mechanical in nature that are more traditional old school repairs and don't require electronic diagnostics. On a car its typically emissions related that you need to diagnose, Tractors don't have the same requirements. Things that break are typically mechanic, and fixable. Again, is silly, but lets not paint a picture that you need to take the tractor in to have the tire replaced either.
We encrypted all your files. Pay us some bitcoin.
--John Deere
Unfortunately, you are probably right......"but, but, muh guns!" "but, but, don't let dem fruits get married!" "You gonna take muh farm?? OK!" "Murica!"
See, above is the type of behavior that has made modern society sick of the progressive, liberal left.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/105-1998/s137
Unanimous. It's a word. Look it up.
People seeking DCMA reform couldn't ask for a better ally than farmers.
Farmers are the most politically active constituency.
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
You can talk to the EPA about that if you want to.
Just like in our business, uptime is crucially important for these farmers. During the spring planting time and the fall harvest period, if that machine breaks, it needs to be RIGHT NOW. They can't wait a "few days" for the dealership mechanic to visit. And he's busy as all hell fixing our people's shit. This isn't just a bunch hay-seeds saying they want to break their knuckles for the fun of it. This is a very serious situation that can have devastating effects on the bottom line.
"The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
"he or she is legally required to take the tractor to a service center (one owned by the manufacturer, since that's the only entity allowed to analyze the tractor's issues)"
I can't believe that this shit is both legal and enforceable. Ridiculous. Just to put it into perspective, pretend that this applied to your car.
-
"Not everyone is on the farmers' side here; some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers"
Oh NOES, something that might reduce a corporation's profits??? OMG, how awful, it's an atrocity beyond words!!!
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
These farmers are not trying to modify their source code for these repairs. Farmers just want to be able to pull a code, replace broken sensors / actuators, and reset the codes so they can grow your food.
This can be done with the J1939 standard on Deere equipment today.
He did say republicrat, which is a portmanteau of Republican and Democrat...
There is no reason not to tell the driver/owner that a sensor is out or a cable unplugged and that it doesn't take a "factory service center" to fix it.
The chips and coding to provide this info to the "farmer" are trivial compared to the price of the equipment.
Ahh the bullshitting line to make it all sound scary...
Linux box and GCC and I was compiling code for several car ECM systems.
Also NOBODY needs to compile the ECM code. all they need to do is query the trouble codes to replace the failing sensor. I see you know nothing at all about engine management.. the only time I had to recompile ECM code was when I was adding a supercharger to a car that never had one, and even then it was not reprogramming it but instead adjusting the fuel/air/spark tables to handle positive boost.
AS for building an ECM... dont have to there are tons of aftermarket versions but hacking GM and Ford existing ECM's are not hard at all. hell the 7730ECM was 100% reverse engineered by us no education window lickers and are doing things with it that GM cant do.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Farmers do not normally do custom mods to the workhorses of their business. The problems come up when the tractor breaks down in the middle of planting/harvesting and their livelihood is on the line. In the old days, we would diagnose the problem, get the parts and repair it in the field. Today when it breaks down you have haul it in to the dealership. That may be 50+ miles away. Then you sit in line until they have time to look at it. Don't think for a minute that large truck that you had to call to get it hauled in was payed for by the dealer either. Costs add up and it all comes out of your bottom line.
Wouldn't it be up to John Deere to repair the tractors on their own dime?
But ONLY if they will support a Universal Right to Repair law.
Cars and Tractors should not be special. We should have the same rights to ALL DEVICES mechanical and electronic.
Iowa farmers: Please ask the state to send all property tax bills for John Deere tractors to the "owner" (John Deere) instead of the farmer. Ask for all the state sales tax money back since there was no sale. Ask JD for the liability insurance policy number for all the tractors since they apparently own them. The possibilities are endless
If the answer is no then the solution is simple... don't buy John Deere tractors. If they all do it, then the government needs to step in.
Does the John Deere contract say 'Ownership' anywhere?
If it does, then the common-law definition of 'Ownership' should apply.
The right to fix and repair, alter ( paint it pink ), modify ( afterburners ) and upgrade ( Aircraft landing lights ) is part of the deal.
Especially for a $100,000 + investment that should be expected to run for 30 + years.
Boycott the company that requires their service, until they feel the economic pressure - and become more "consumer-oriented".
Auto companies are trying to do this, too.... same treatment.
There are laws requiring you to have a license to drive a car, fly a plane, or practice medicine. But there is no law anyplace that requires you to have a license to use software, watch a movie or listen to music. The EULA is nothing but a CONTRACT, and if you didn't agree to that, you have no obligation to any part of it.
My cousins all have New Holland equipment for this reason. They're easy to repair, all the engine codes are published and parts are easily orderable.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
And also on farms as we know them today? Why not have farming more distributed if it can be indoors? If everyone is their own farmer then goodbye traditional farms.
Perhaps you're not aware that Congress has to pass it before the President?
ie Democrats AND Republicans.
Have you ever tried to actually use the seat belt? It is a far better solution to that particular problem.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
You can query the codes using the standard J1939 bus on Deere. You don't know what you are talking about. You can talk to the EPA about compiling your own ECM. That isn't legal either for your car according to them.
Then how can they make you pay for repairs? If john deere still owns the tractor, then they should be maintaining it at their expense.
From the Goblin POV, the only true master of any object is the person who made it. They do not like the habit of witches and wizards acquiring goblin made objects and passing them from wizard to wizard by sale or by inheritance. What wizard think as the price paid to a Goblin own an object, is merely a license fee to use the object for the lifetime of the purchaser. When the wizard dies, or no longer wants to own it, the object should be returned to the Goblin who made it.
John Deere will agree with this philosophy wholeheartedly.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
You probably wasted $600 on those manuals. These days, if your vehicle is fairly popular, you can just download the manuals for free if you look around some.
THIS is what "Preventing Repair" REALLY looks like.
Apple's Pentalobe screws are NOTHING like threatening DMCA action. Apple hasn't run-around trying to stop the manufacture and sale of Pentalobe screwdrivers, nor filed DMCA Takedown notices for iFixit and other Apple repair videos, nor attempted to stop the booming business of iPhone/iPad repair shops nor those selling repair parts.
This is WAY different, and needs to be stopped. What farmer (or homeowner) in their right mind would buy John Deere at this point?
This is why we needed it.
Screw it though, gotta protect those profits. The human race is fucked.
What is this some sort of group prejudice being encouraged in a Slashdot headline? I'm sorry if I'm mistaken but has the ring of looking down on someone to me. Perhaps the tongue in cheek remark of someone from the city who thinks farmers are uneducated woodchucks.
It's been more than 15 years since I lived there but I grew up in the county seat of a county primarily based in agriculture. It is pretty typical for a farmer to have a masters or higher and rare for them to have no degree. Most farms these days are multi-million dollar a year operations with highly educated staff required to operate them. Forget your images of Green Acres. Your hot shot city executive doesn't just lack the grit, he likely isn't intelligent enough and certainly isn't well enough educated to be a farmer. Depending on which portions of agriculture you specialize in, it's best thought of as either an engineering or science field and solidly in the realm of STEM. More than that, not only is there a great deal of school required but farmers are typically multi-generation and have as much or more hands on experience when they start school as many STEM workers have toward the end of their career.
And also on farms as we know them today? Why not have farming more distributed if it can be indoors? If everyone is their own farmer then goodbye traditional farms.
Because it's bloody EXPENSIVE to grow indoors compared with outside. That is only a viable solution where the local climate makes growing seasons too short, or where product quality must be tightly controlled.
iii if the farmers only are "licensing" the equipment (and that is UTTER NONSENSE).
Who is responsible for the property tax on the equipment and in the case of an accident, legal liability?
some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers, potentially landing them in trouble.
Protect them from Capitalism?
That is not how it works.
We as a society have to banish the practice of rent seeking. Not only isn't it productive, but it's actually counterproductive.
"ie Democrats AND Republicans."
Are you aware you are replying to a comment pointing out that both Democrats and Republicans are the problem? Agreement in a chastising tone of correction is a bit odd.
Sorry if the thought of someone not wearing a seatbelt gives you nightmares, but I'm not putting it on just to shuffle cars around in the driveway while washing them or doing maintenance.
Perhaps you can't read...
Republicrat
R and D are the same party... You've been lied to...
Listening to the damn thing beep and complain because you have a box sitting on the passenger seat is pretty annoying.
Why not just blacklist John Deere and buy your tractors from somebody else who doesn't pull this shit?
Or is there no alternatives, and John Deere has a monopoly on tractors worldwide or something?
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
Have you ever tried to actually use the seat belt? It is a far better solution to that particular problem.
Seriously, what is with these anti-seatbelt people? I just can't be bothered to have sympathy for people who got hurt much more than they would have if they had followed simple safety practices.
Also I call BS on those DIY numbers, I've never seen cabin air filters sold for only $6 and are we supposed to assume that he somehow got the replacement body panel for free?
Wow! You must have never owned a car that, despite the seat belt being clasped while driving, the alarm still sounded! Such a luxurious life you have led friend!
In case you didn't know, THIS situation, happens a lot, and it isn't just a fuse.
If they actually OWN the tractor, then they should be able to repair it as required, themselves if they're capable, and no one should be allowed to tell them 'no'. If they got tricked into a 'lease' or 'rental' by unclear paperwork, hidden agreements, or any other type of obfuscation of true intent on the part of John Deere, then there should be legal remedy up to and including invalidating any 'agreements' farmers have been tricked into signing, court order(s) mandating the cease and desist of the deceptive practices, and perhaps even compensation to the farmers for lost income.
On the other hand if the farmers KNEW that they were basically renting/leasing the tractors, then I have no sympathy for them -- except that in that case they should get their lawyers to pound on John Deere for not being instantly responsive to breakdowns of the rented/leased equipment, since it's all mission-critical to the time-sensitive nature of the farmers' business.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Aren't small, independent farms more traditional than centralized agribusiness?
If you are only using the tractor on their own property, how would the company ever know that you were doing your own repairs in the first place?
Just know that you won't get any help from the manufacturer, it will totally void any warranties you might have otherwise had, and the manufacturer will probably make things difficult for you, so your expertise level might have to be somewhat higher than what would be required to repair a vehicle made, say, in the 1970's.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Just a tipp: If the same tractor or car model is sold in Europe, just try to buy the corresponding repair/parts manual there.
This is a sad state of affairs. Old tractors never die they just become more valuable. Save them.
Factory service manuals are at least three times thicker than a Chilton or Haynes, and give extremely detailed information and procedures. There is literally no substitute for a real service manual if you are serious about repair work and not just a casual DIY-er.
It is a terrible thing to do, good for a while but ingenuity falters over time when ignorance is broad and skills are isolated to fields. Specialists are usually the least innovative.
I saw a documentary on some cable channel years ago that was on tractors and heavy equipment. They went into this issue somewhat and showed the complexity of the new machines were built using 10-20x the part count of the 1970's and earlier models.
Farmers are not at all alike, yes many can be quite wealthy some not. The extreme NE has their share of farms, the corporate farms would call hobby(50-200 acres) and I've seen them worked for 50 years with what is today a $2-5k tractor... ALL this new equipment is really doing a dis-service to people down the line in needless complexity.
Don't be an obtuse douchenozzle. There are legit reasons for wanting to turn it off.
It can be annoying when you put something like a backpack in the passenger seat, and the bell starts ringing--especially so when the item is just below the threshold to turn the ringer on, and it's triggered when you hit a bump while driving. Then it's ding ding ding until you can manage to buckle the passenger seatbelt.
It's also annoying when you want to move a car a hundred feet across your yard or driveway, and you have to either listen to the ding, put on a seatbelt, or keep the speed below 12 mph.
I'm sure there are other reasons.
Farmers will use warranty service when appropriate. But when the combine breaks down and you've only got hours to finish the harvest before the hailstorms down south reach your fields then to hell with warranty, rip the sucker apart, disconnect the computer if it is getting in the way, and use bailing wire and bubblegum if that's what it takes to get the equipment operational again. Maybe it can be fixed the right way after the harvest is done, or maybe the bailing wire repair will be good enough for another season or two.
Farmers need the right to work on their own machinery using whatever skills and equipment they have on hand at the time of the breakdown. Apparently John Deere has lost sight of this. Which is why they are losing business to International Harvester, Case, Kubota, etc.
Not even remotely what they are wanting. They want to be able to have access to the repair manuals, special tools, and software that is needed to work on the tractor, which currently all the manufacturers are keeping for themselves and refuse to sell to the public.
When I bought my last 4x4 SUV (FJ Cruiser) part of the deal was a full set of dealer repair manuals. Most of the dealers I went to did not want to sell them to me. The one that did, and was willing to order me a vehicle to the specs I wanted not just what ever they had on the lot, got my business. While the manuals themselves ran me $600, they have paid for themselves a couple times over since I could do most of the minor work myself. Half the battle is just knowing where all the damn screws are located to get a part off. A must have if you are going to modify and work on your own vehicle.
A few examples of what I'm talking about.
AC repair. Dealer $160 labor, parts $350. DIY $50. Cabin air filter Dealer $50, DIY $6. OEM trailer hitch install $350. DIY $120. OEM alarm. Dealer $275. DIY $0. Changed setting in ECM. Plastic body panel replacement. Dealer $500 parts and labor. DIY $100 Seatbelt warning bell. Dealer didn't want to turn it off, claimed it was impossible. DIY $0 changed setting in ECM. Fucking priceless never having to listen to that piece of shit ding again.
When you DIY that trailer hitch and something goes wrong due to the installation causing injury to others, can you held liable to a further degree because of the unauthorized/non-certified installation?
When you DIY the alarm system on your vehicle and it gets stolen, is your insurance company liable for the same amount of loss before you tampered with the ECM to support it?
A passenger in your vehicle was not reminded with an audible chime to put on their seatbelt, resulting in serious injury due to an accident. Could you be held liable to a further degree because of blatant tampering with a known safety feature?
Is your vehicle even still under warranty because you tampered with the ECM settings?
It's not hard to find valid reasons why you pay someone else. It's also not hard to understand why you do not fuck with components designed for safety no matter how annoying they may be. The ultimate question is what turns out to be less "cost" to you.
Yeah, I know. It's a shitty world of liability we live in.
Sure you can use our diagnostic tools. One million dollars please. Per year.
So if I can replace the operating system on my computer, table, or phone with a open source operating system, could we go along those lines. If a new operating system was developed to completely replace the operating system on the tractor, would it be legal to put it on the tractor? You would not be tampering with any of the copyright protected software, since it would just be erased and replaced with the open source software. I understand that this would not be easy and the the hardware specification are probably closely guarded. Also getting an example tractor to dig into and possibly render unworkable at least temporarily is an expense proposition. Just an idea. I am not an embedded programmer, so this is not really in my realm of expertise, but open source could revolutionize the farming industry for the farmers. The tractors would become commodities just like PCs.
Farmers should seriously consider why they would want to vote for Mike Pence, since he has been a staunch receiver of campaign contributions from tractor manufacturers and others championing the DCMA.
But the tractor owners disagree, annoyed that their tractors are treated differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop.
So Tesla has no problem with me fiddling around with the software that runs Autopilot? I don't mean installing an update they send, I mean reverse engineering the code and attempting to make it do something different.
Farmers need to be able to disable sensors, actuators, and the whole damn computer when those get in the way of finishing the work the machine is supposed to be doing. Farm machinery is basically pretty simple stuff. You can finish plowing a field without the GPS navigator if you have to. You might be able to swap out the dead electronic ignition in the bailer for a working one taken from the backhoe if you have the manuals.
That kind of thing can save a year's worth of crops. Farmers need to be able to do that.
"Not everyone is on the farmers' side here; some, according to the Associated Press, are concerned that the move would reduce revenue to tractor manufacturers"
Who besides the tractor manufacturers would have this stance? It sounds like John Deere is taking a page from the printer manufacturers book, sell something at/near/below cost and then ream your customers on consumables. This is completely antithetical to the long established market of oem/aftermarket parts and shops. Of course it wouldn't be possible without a government enforced monopoly at the manufactures pleasure over something a consumer has purchased and has full possession of.
using DMCA to enforce a repair monopoly is indefensible, but be careful what you wish for by allowing anyone to mod their own software. There are millions of diesel Mercedes owners who will want to "performance mod" their cars rather than allow them to be fixed to comply with pollution control laws; and don't even think about the implications of modding the software for your self driving car.
I completely agree re: seatbelt noises. I usually take to unplugging the wires under the seat to accomplish that. If anyone trying to sell me a vehicle ever told me it was impossible to turn that off, I wouldn't even consider making the purchase.
There's repair and then there's hacking. Suppose the "breakdown" is that the ass-on-seat sensor is broken, and the "fix" is to let the tractor run anyway. When the tractor runs over it's operator, the operator gets dead, but who gets sued?
Buy future tractors from Alibaba:
https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=Tractor
As John Deere's stock price declines, I bet they would change their policy to make keep their customers (happy).
Oh, just shut up already, you whiny liberal bitches. This is the free market we're talking about here. You can't just call for the government to step in a regulate a sacred thing like that. What you should have done is shopped more carefully. If you wanted a piece of equipment you could service yourself, that's what you should have bought. The invisible hand can fix all ills. Shame on you for not wielding it more responsibly.
/s
On the Microsoft farm, they make shady deals that all tractors are sold with Microsoft proprietary parts. They sneak Microsoft microphones on all their parts, and you are required to install cameras in the barns for United States tractor safety compliance. Then they go around talking about how Linux tractors will never be in the fields. They pay for stories then send teams of anonymous tractor specialists to have fake discussions about how the camera parts and microphones required for US tractor safety are all just in your head. They don't even exist, plus it says they can in the fine print of the agreements.
Slashdot fag farm.
Old NH, maybe.
Newer NH is all CNH, which is Fiat Group. They don't run a charity, and they don't reveal engine codes.
1) least effective - stop buying that brand - assumes the others aren't all doing it
2) cost the company so much damn money they change their mind. this can be done legally with lawyers, or illegally with molitov cocktails to their assets. yes they have insurance, but if the ins companies have to pay off a few billion dollars in claims, guess what's going to happen to their rates?
3) nationalize the company and shoot the top-level management, board of directors, and anyone owning 10% or more of the stock. preferably public executions to make sure the point is load and clear. think french revolution.
I'm guessing the avg american is probably on board with #1, and would like to talk tough about #2, but wouldn't actually want to firebomb the local dealership cause they know the ppl who work there.
still, if you want answers, these would work.
taking it out on congress might work also, if you apply step 3. you'd be killing the wrong people at this point, but honestly, when you are doing publinc executions just to make a point, you can execute just about anyone, and people will get the idea that you're mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore.
disclaimer - I personally don't think killing is the best way to solve problems. but non-lethal beatings of those involved are hard to organize, and its hard to let 1 million farmers all get a chance to throw a right-hook at the bad guys, without killing them from repeated blows.
still, taking the money would probably scare them almost as well. maybe that should be what we do, as step 2.5 ?
If the abominable Tesla distribution model will become more common, you can forget about the 3rd party shops.
This is exactly how lease hold works in the UK.
He did say republicrat, which is a portmanteau of Republican and Democrat...
Portamenteau? Isn't that those slimy little red things they stuff into green olives?
So their motivation is no longer to make a good, durable product, but one that is incredibly complicated, delicate, and expensive (aka, a Porche or Ferrari), requiring frequent repairs that can only be done by them (a monopoly with DMCA teeth).
Yes, some of the remaining big farmers (some of which have Park Place residences) are assholes, but they have suppliers that are a perfect match.
Hint: outdoors is big
My first brother-in-law was in a car accident. Because he was NOT wearing his seat belt at the time, he was thrown about the cabinet but walked away from the accident. The driver seat and area was destroyed and, had he worn his seltbelt, he would have been killed in the accident. One news story, when seat belt were coming into cars, stated that in 98% of the crashes, a worn seltbelt will save a life but in 2% of the crashes, a worn seltbelt will kill a life. People get to choose--even if it is illegal. (Now, in the case of my first brother-in-law, a worn seltbelt might have saved his spouse and children a whole lot of pain.)
You probably wasted $600 on those manuals. ...
That's my take too. Half that list is generic easy stuff anyway. Hitch install? Cabin air filter? Did you really need a manual to open the glove box (or google the hiding spot where your model keeps it) and swap a simple air filter? For the last 15 years any hitch I've installed was a few bolts and a modular plug into an existing wiring. Hardest part was removing the spare tire first. The last time I had to drill, or splice wires, or even take more than 20 minutes for the whole job was... How old are you? Yeah, probably a few years before that.
Google is your friend. $6 for an cabin air filter is common. Major online car parts have them. Major online places have sales, loss-leaders, freebies, etc. I can buy them for Free with "Amazon Points"-type purchases. Personally, I used the higher-rated (HEPA?) filters and they are less than half the price than the dealer sells them.
dealer only service even an HOA can't do that. HOA's can't block you from getting dish or directv. They can't say you must use our HVAC that costs a lot more then other local shops.
This is the sort of thing that prompted Open Source Ecology's open-source hardware - the vital machines of civilization, built from collaboratively updated open source blueprints, made to a modular design from off-the-shelf parts. Know FreeCAD? Welding? You can make a tractor. I've seen one of the initial prototypes, and it was doing the job.
http://opensourceecology.org/g...
https://www.ted.com/talks/marc...
Their current push is open-source homebuilding, but it builds on all of the machines they've made. https://www.kickstarter.com/pr...
In my estimation, this is one of the most important open source projects of all time. This stuff is maintainable and built without planned obsolescence. We need that kind of freedom at the base of civilization.
You work for John Deere, right? Or GM? Or Ford? Or Sony? Or some other manufacturer? Life is one uncontainable RISK. Buying and using a manufacturer's manual is proof of intent to provide a risk-free installation–that's the best the manufacturer & rep can do. You are covered legally because of your proven intent. And, you are assuming facts not in evidence. Remember there was a time when there was NO chiming on seltbelts. Plus, in my state, it is the responsibility of the passenger to use the provided seltbelt--lack of a beep is ignorance of the law. Gosh, it must be hard to be so young and so unrelated?
My 2014 has methods of changing the ECM in the owner's manual. Not all of them but being a computer geek, they are easy to figure out and to reset. Boo on you!
Then dont buy your next tractor on those terms.
John Deere tractors dont have the quality build that they used to have anyway. I'm seeing more and more plastic in those things.
My grampa used to swear up & down by John Deere, wouldnt buy anything else. Here i am 2 generations later & theres not a single JD on the property, and i dont expect there ever will be.
Fuck you John & the Deere you rode in on.
the beeping is telling you that you're doing it wrong.
box on the front passenger seat means that the front passenger seat's airbag is activated. if you get into an accident, that's an extra airbag you'll need to replace.
the point is --- the seatbelt warning is not the only issue you're having
I bet you're fun at parties. You sound like an insufferable prick.
It's specifically illegal for banks, who invented it.
davecb@spamcop.net
There is already precedent set for that. Nobody gets sued because the circumvention is at fault. Someone would have to prove that the machine was unsafe even with the sensor, or that there was a manufacturing defect that caused a problem with some other unrelated failsafe.
There is some line between where the manufacturer has responsibility and the operator has responsibility. And while you can open a civil case over nearly anything in the US, winning is another matter.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
3rd party hardware people should jump on that bandwagon. There isn't all that much to an ECU, the simplest way to overcome Deere's stupidity will be by ditching their ECU modules and replacing them with 3rd party drop-in replacements. There's plenty of vendors out there that could offer such products, the main reason they didn't jump on it yet is that Deere can stop being stupid at any time, making the 3rd party efforts worth quite a bit less. OTOH, farmers may be jaded enough that even if Deere reversed on their IP retardiness, they perhaps would stick with a 3rd party solution.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
The guys with this problem don't grow my food, they grow my food's food. These farmers do huge corn and soy bean fields. Most of their production goes into cattle, hog, and chicken feed. Some of it goes into fuel ethanol production.
Dude, have you never ever heard of people working on their fucking cars? Are you that stupid, or do you just play one on Slashdot? WTF?!
The ECM settings that can be changed without breaking the warranty are the ones that are there to be changed to begin with, pretty much. You really must have not ever worked on your own car using factory software. I've been working on my Volvos for more than a decade now and no, the factory software doesn't let you change the engine tune, or really do anything but what the dealer might be willing to do if you ask them. Yes, even the fucking dealer sometimes has advisors or techs stubborn or not giving a fuck enough not to bother changing settings (at an hourly rate!) that the fucking factory documentation advises specifically are changeable per user preferences. These settings are hidden only to route some more business to the dealer, BTW, there's no technical reason why they shouldn't be exposed to the user.
The seatbelt chimes as they are implemented in most cars on US market are useless. Either give me Swedish system where the chime is ON until you put the damn seatbelts on, or give me no fucking chime. In the US you normally have a chime that'll bother you for a few seconds then turn off no matter what you do. Worse yet, if your order of operations is start the car then put the belts on, as plenty of people do, the stupid chime will always beep at you for no reason other than some designer's stupidity.
The "shitty world of liability" is the one you live in. It's all in your head, a made-up problem. My close family is a bunch of litigation lawyers and even they aren't as risk averse as you seem to be.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
You know absolute nothing at all about cars. The EPA has nothing to do with privately modified vehicles.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Not even remotely what they are wanting. They want to be able to have access to the repair manuals, special tools, and software that is needed to work on the tractor, which currently all the manufacturers are keeping for themselves and refuse to sell to the public.
When I bought my last 4x4 SUV (FJ Cruiser) part of the deal was a full set of dealer repair manuals. Most of the dealers I went to did not want to sell them to me. The one that did, and was willing to order me a vehicle to the specs I wanted not just what ever they had on the lot, got my business. While the manuals themselves ran me $600, they have paid for themselves a couple times over since I could do most of the minor work myself. Half the battle is just knowing where all the damn screws are located to get a part off. A must have if you are going to modify and work on your own vehicle.
A few examples of what I'm talking about.
AC repair. Dealer $160 labor, parts $350. DIY $50.
Cabin air filter Dealer $50, DIY $6.
OEM trailer hitch install $350. DIY $120.
OEM alarm. Dealer $275. DIY $0. Changed setting in ECM.
Plastic body panel replacement. Dealer $500 parts and labor. DIY $100
Seatbelt warning bell. Dealer didn't want to turn it off, claimed it was impossible. DIY $0 changed setting in ECM. Fucking priceless never having to listen to that piece of shit ding again.
When you DIY that trailer hitch and something goes wrong due to the installation causing injury to others, can you held liable to a further degree because of the unauthorized/non-certified installation?
When you DIY the alarm system on your vehicle and it gets stolen, is your insurance company liable for the same amount of loss before you tampered with the ECM to support it?
A passenger in your vehicle was not reminded with an audible chime to put on their seatbelt, resulting in serious injury due to an accident. Could you be held liable to a further degree because of blatant tampering with a known safety feature?
Is your vehicle even still under warranty because you tampered with the ECM settings?
It's not hard to find valid reasons why you pay someone else. It's also not hard to understand why you do not fuck with components designed for safety no matter how annoying they may be. The ultimate question is what turns out to be less "cost" to you.
Yeah, I know. It's a shitty world of liability we live in.
Seasame street likes to say 'Some of these things are not like the other'
In each of those cases the burden of proof is on the other party to prove by a preponderance of evidence that your actions caused the issue.
let me run down your examples -
"Unathorized/Non-Certified Installation" - Authorized by who - Certified by who? Arguably if it was done from the instructions int he manual it was done to spec. It's your job as the plantiff to prove it was not.
"DIY Alarm System" - Are alarm systems even required for auto theft insurance? Wait - not they are not. Next!
'Turning off the Seatbelt Chime in the car Computer" - It's certainly a crime for the automaker to do it. however since it is a setting like you know what color your screen on your computer is proving that it damaged the Drivability of the car is going to be difficult. Additionally - most cars do not chime for the non-driver. So suing for that and WINNING would be a challenge.
It was inevitable that eventually some millennials would become farmers, and bring their whiny complaints to an otherwise respectable industry.
I suspect it's more likely that in a few decades tractors won't need farmers.
Why is this modded down?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Prof. Benardo De La Paz refers to a system called rational anarchy.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
and you will have an article properly framed for the /. audience. Liberal /. pride themselves on their progressive tollerance. One of the cornerstones of modern progressive tolerant liberalism is the ability to judge anyones character based solely on their race, geographic region on domicile and especially occupation. Just as all priests rape children, all farmers are by definition racist homphobes who enjoy sucking each others tiny cocks when they are not raping cows.
You /. should be happy that these evil white racists farmers are no longer able to fix the tractors. Hell farmers are too stupid to fix anything, and they would only bumble it up and turn their tractor into an african american lynching machine.
No farmers should be allowed to work on tractors. They should have to ship them to New York or California, where smart people can work on them. People who do not rape farm animals.
"When you DIY that trailer hitch and something goes wrong due to the installation causing injury to others, can you held liable to a further degree because of the unauthorized/non-certified installation?"
GOOD FUCKING LUCK getting a dealer's insurance policy to pay out. It will bankrupt you in court before they pay.
So what's the alternative?
Be prepared to state in court that you followed best practices, worked sober, consulted the official documentation, and used appropriate/recommended parts. That's exactly the same scrutiny that a certified mechanic would be under, and it is straight forward to prove your competence under such circumstances.
Stop being afraid of your own incompetence; man/woman the fuck up, believe in yourself and do things properly!
You need to go read about the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975.
It's freakin food, why wouldn't you want tightly controlled quality?
I grew up around a farm. The reality is that most farms, especially smaller farms, can't go running to the dealer every time a screw comes loose on a piece of equipment. Cost aside, you often have a very narrow window to get hay in, crops harvested, etc. and it's not always feasible to haul the equipment 30 miles and wait a week to get it repaired. The skill set for being a successful farmer includes general mechanic, welding and machine shop skills.
Telling a farmer that he/she can fix the tractor is very similar to telling an IT professional that when a mission critical server goes down, you close the business for a week while the server gets shipped out and a new hard drive gets installed at a premium price.
You don't sound much like a geek with that attitude. Do you buy software instead of making your own just in case you get sued?
The tractors have GPS and drive themselves. Never in history has less human labor been involved in farming.
There are no family farms these days, except for crops that can't be automated like asparagus.
Your story of yesteryear means nothing in 2016 any more than a Charles Dickens novel.
I don't agree with John Deere's stance... but here's another thought to consider...
I work for a major car company and was recently having a conversation with our of tech instructors.
He was at a (3rd party) body shop the other day and witnessed their service guy replacing a windshield on one of our brand of vehicles. Soon after, it was rolled out for a waiting customer.
Our instructor asked, "is that car all done?". The service manager said "yes".
"Have you done the camera calibration for the safety system's automatic braking that's required after windshield replacement.".
The manager wasn't aware of the requirement, let alone how to do it.
Now, imagine if the customer got into an accident because their safety system didn't brake properly. Who would the customer blame?
Point: With vehicle systems becoming so complex, I can understand why John Deere is trying to restrict (albeit, it seems too restrictive in my opinion). Finding a balance on what can be touched/cannot be touched can be a fine line.
I had to scroll down way too far to find a post like this. While "nobody ever got fired" for buying a Deere, there are other combines out there. I found Agco first. You might be the odd man out at first, but if Deere is pissing you off that much, it looks like maybe not all equipment manufacturers are being dicks. My first thought was "Will overseas equipment makers please pick up the white courtesy phone".
Change takes time, but it can happen. I remember when nobody drove foreign cars and we made fun of Toyota drivers. For big ticket items like cars and tractors, it takes time; but if you make shit or treat people badly your business will suffer. Stop treating people badly while you still have a chance, Deere.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Hungary has someone designing a non-electronic tractor?
In the 1960s, the Volksgagon bug came with a small tool kit, for small repairs and maintenance.
I have worked on Volkswagons, Fords, Chevys, and Buicks.... Fiats... Corvettes... and lawn-mowers.
( sorry, not really a motorcycle freak )
What I'd like to see in autos, lawnmowers, tractors, snowmobiles, etc..
Easy maintenance for air/fuel/oil/transmission filters.
Sparkplugs, Thermostats, sensors, Wiring, Hoses, easy to replace.
Fluids easy to replace.
Belts and Brakepads - ditto.
With a simple tool set. 3 wrenches, a socket set, and voltmeter.
A decent manual.
Now - when are the brains yapping here gonna start designing these?
Probably never - just like my Mom, who loves to argue and gripe, but claims 'technical illiteracy' about doing something.
Here's how:
1) find the most reliable engine/transmission available. This will probably be the simplest one...
Or- design one just for the purpose. remember KISS.
Maybe just a small natural gas turbine/wankel/generator and direct-drive electric motor wheels..... (does it HAVE to be Diesel?)
2) over design. design to last. Steel, Cast iron, loose tolerances ( think AK-47 reliability ).
3) Minimize electronics, feedback systems, and anything not necessary. ( roll-up windows! driver-adjusted seats. Maybe valves to control heating
need AC?, have an electric unit accessory or a fan. DO have a CB-radio. )
4) Skip 4, the morons wouldn't understand.
5) make it easy to assemble and take apart, hard to break.
6) skip 6, this would just be giving in to sales.
7) Use epoxy marine paint.
8) sell it as a do-it-yourself kit ( avoid all regulatory bodies possible ).
"implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle."
This is no different than the implied license to occupy your property for as long as you hold the title. You don't actually own your tractor, but you also don't actually own your farm. The government owns your farm, and grants you license to occupy the land (fee simple title) and license to sow and reap from it, license for livestock to graze upon it, and license to use the water that falls upon it (which must be purchased in conjunction with both reaping rights and grazing rights, since the water that falls naturally becomes part of the activities of those rights).
Nobody in the US actually owns the property they have title to. A fee-simple title merely grants you the right to IMPROVE opon a parcel of land by placing a permanent structure upon it. You have no default right to perform farming, collect water, or take minerals from it. Those must be purchased separately. Of course, you must pay a tithe to the government for the privilege of holding title.
Also, people who know how to read and think should mod you down too, because you said nothing about John Deere's shady dealings.
The first three paragraphs (of four): total irrelevancy. Nobody gives a flying fuck how "noble" you think someone else might think the victims of this crime are. If they were "noble" then the crime would be inexcusable, and if they aren't "noble" the crime would be inexcusable. And it took you three paragraphs to talk about whatever-the-fuck that picture in your head is. Which, incidentally, had jack shit to do with the story.
Then, after shitting out of your mouth off-topic for three paragraphs, it looks like maybe you're gong to touch on the discu-- oh, shit.
Nope, another shit paragraph. The fourth paragraph started out slightly promising, but then: Shit. Turns out (according to you, at least) that you have zero knowledge of what happened, and also dodge the topic of the crazy evil law and the criminally-intended business. Your entire contribution comes down to "I suspect..." followed by a hypothesis.
Now, that's ok. It's ok to have a hypothesis, and your hypothesis does happen to be on topic. (!) Good, ok, maybe we're getting somewhere. Your hypothesis is that there was a discount deal of some kind, where people paid less for a DRMed tractor in exchange for getting locked into some kind of exclusive maintenance agreement where they take it up the ass after the sale. Ok.
So then you begin to introduce your evidence and thoughts about the agreeme--oops. Your post suddenly ended. No citations where someone spilled the beans. No anecdotes about a time when you were offered, or did the offering. No nothing.
No thoughts. No evidence. Not even weak evidence (which is totally good on Slashdot) like an analogy to an anecdote. Just.. nothing.
Emptiness. You had almost nothing to say. You didn't suggest that you know something. You've got some kind of problem with farming and possibly the people who do it, and you think that maybe because they're bad people, businesses should try to defraud them. That's about all we learned from you: that you're a vacuous asshole.
I don't think assholes should be modded down. But you're a vacuous one. No art. No content.
I don't think empty vacuous minds should be modded down for staring into space like retards. But you didn't just drool out your mouth: you shat out of it.
I vote: mod this worthless person's worthless words down. Off-topic would be the correct setting, though as usual for off-topic, it's possibly motivated by desire to Troll. Your choice, moderators.
Whoosh. You missed the
republicrat
He's insulting both parties by saying they are one and the same.
Yep. Got a small old(1958) Fordson utility tractor which broke a ring. I'm pulling out the engine and doing a complete rebuild. Now I know why I can still get a complete rebuild kit for my old tractor. Buying a new tractor is just not an option anymore. Thanks for the warning about that. The way my old tractor was overbuilt, I expect it'll last another 60 years after the engine rebuild... :-)
FTFA:
[Emphasis mine]. This is BS. John Deere is lying to their dealers by sending a letter like this. When you own a book, you can absolutely modify it all you want. You can highlight stuff, black stuff out, rip out pages, re-write passages and stuff the new pages in there. That's all part of First Sale doctrine. Copyright does NOT prevent you from doing those things, but John Deere is claiming it does (as far as their tractor software goes).
What they are relying on (solely) is the DMCA, which bans access to the software (with ANY "protection").
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
>> differently from their cars and trucks, which can be serviced by any independent shop.
Try taking your European premium car to an independent. None of them have access to the diagnostic tools or software that the dealers have, that in some cases are necessary for even basic tasks that in any way involve the ECU.
I don't think farmers are trying to mod their tractors. I think they are trying to repair them without going to John Deere. Which means the tractor is probably out of warranty. Farmers are really cheap people and if they still had some free repair warranty service available to them they'd be using that instead of screwing aroud with hacking into their tractors.
While it would be nice if this just goes to court and somehow weakens the DMCA. I suspect that congress will just write up a quick and dirty exception for the ag lobby and slap a band-aid on the problem to make the farmers happy.
No, the issue is that with the modern tractors, the sensors that detect issues can cause a complete shutdown of the tractor. A real-life example: a farmer in Iowa had a John Deere that kept having the 3-point hitch hydraulics burst, the sensors detected this and disabled the tractor. Because of the software protections, he had to get a John Deere tech to come out and fix the thing. That cost way more than if he could repair, and cost him quite a bit of time (I think 2 weeks once). This was really annoying because the rest of the tractor was fine and he could have used it for many things that did not require the 3 point hitch.
geekmux, are you the spawn of an ambulance chaser or just naturally a bed wetter?
Since filesharers get sued all the time under the DMCA, it's time those farmers get put in jail for fixing John Deere's tractors. The farmers, on the other hand, might want to charge John Deere for housing the company's tractors on their land.
It's freakin food, why wouldn't you want tightly controlled quality?
I mean "Tightly controlled", like "each tomato shall be between 4.05 and 5.25 inches in diameter".
I've turned off the seatbelt warning for my passenger seat as well. My fiancee somehow manages to trigger it to lock up on a regular basis and has to momentarily release the belt to get it to unlock. That alarm going off is quite annoying in such a case.
You got the service manuals, great. Now what about the special programming tools for your ECU?
I've got a Mitsubishi Lancer and it's a total PITA to get the TPMS programmed. It's 90 minutes to the local dealership and half the time they forget to reprogram the system after installing my summer or winter wheels. You can order the required MUT-III toolkit from the official supplier and do it yourself, but it's $8,000.
Just get an older tractor. And consumers, demand you obtain your food from farms that maintain their own equipment hence sustainability is number one.
Corporate America and their stooges in government (in BOTH parties) are behaving like magicians.
You are supposed to be symathetic to their legitimate copyright concerns, and not notice that they are absolutely NOT honoring the basic bargain of the whole copyright scheme. They are doing this with patents too. Basically they have corrupted all IP law to the benefit of corporate boards and stockholders and yes even the employees of these bit companies who benefit from the abuse by not having to be nimble and make new products and not having to compete with more nimble and energetic upstart competitor companies.
Copyright and Patent are both supposed to have the taxpayers and government give limited protection to a creative act in exchange for full disclosure into the public record and the eventual transition of the creative thing into the public domain. Nothing in patents or copyrights, as put into American law originally by the nation's founders, would prohibit a person from studying the thing disclosed (in PUBLIC RECORDS) even without a license to use the patent and even without a "right to copy" (a copyright) license. Indeed, with patents, anybody is free to use the patent on his own and not for profit to verify that the patented thing is indeed possible (which is one way to invalidate a patent, by showing that it cannot be implemented as disclosed and thus the disclosure is illegally insufficient). There's also nothing in original patent or copyright law that would prohibit a person from repairing a thing they bought and wich they have a right to nkow the details of if it is patented or copyrighted. Indeed, it you license a piece of sheet music and damage a page, you are free to repair the page.
Big corporations making significant piles of money from IP, have bought their share of lawmakers in both parties who have in-turn made many corrupting changes to patent and copyright law over the decades, mostly stretching the duration of protection for decades enabling companies like Disney to continue to milk the works of its long-dead creator lang after they should have become public domain. These same companies are desperate to convince people and courts and politicians that there is some mystical aspect of IP law that permits them to control a thing after they have sold it and to not fully-disclose a thing while copyrighting/patenting it. We're all supposed to get flummoxed by the complexity and distracted by screams of "piracy" and so forth and not remember that there's simply no basis for the idea that somebody who buys a tractor has every right to know every detail of how it works and every right to repair it.
Unfortuantely the biggest and most-influential buainesses, like Appple, are fully-dependent upon this invalid business model and they have business connections to the big media companies who are fully-onboard with all the IP law hoodwinking and together they communicate with the majority of voters via a near 24/7 nearly-direct-brain-implant pipeline of things like iPhones, "social networks", entertainment TV, etc. The public is on the entertainment equivalent of a morphine drip and is actually encouraged NOT to think hard about serious public policy matters. Most only consider such things when they are programmed to, like supporting changes to the internet or telecom business policies which are presented to them as for THEIR benefit but are actually just designed to shift power or money from telcos to device or content companies. If we could switch off the internet and the cell phones for a month, people MIGHT come out oif their collective stupor to start asking questions about just who is running things and for whose benefits and by what rules, instead of concentrating on the latest news from the Kardashian family.
Translation: "We can't be as profitable if we can't fleece customers."
Table-ized A.I.
Normally a car doesn't have a tone for a passenger so that complaint is right out. A trailer hitch failure would always be your responsibility unless you could prove a faulty installation of the 4 bolts most of them use(thats what insurance is for anyway). Yes your insurance doesn't care who put your alarm on, it's still an alarm. Yes the vehicle is still under warranty, the burden of proof is on the warranty provider to prove your change was directly responsible for the failure.
Slow spell-checker now disabled.
The spell checker I use was changing things as I typed and I did not catch the meaning being changed as I fought it and edited its on-the-fly changes to my admittedly bad typing. In undoing its slow changes I used diffrerent words and inverted the meaning. Apps that run like that can lead to unintended stuff, particularly if they become sluggish.
I MEANT TO TYPE:
there is no basis for the idea that somebody who buys a tractor has no right to know every detail of how it works.
The point is that we are being fooled into thinking the opposite of what the founders of the nation intended, because it's in the interests of the people making piles of money from that magic act to keep us mesmerized, and many of them are running the media and the companies whose products we use to access the media. The truth however is right there in front of us if we stop listening to THEM and start paying attention to the nation's original laws and documents which are gathering dust in libraries and museums.
When you DIY that trailer hitch and something goes wrong due to the installation causing injury to others, can you held liable to a further degree because of the unauthorized/non-certified installation?
If you cook a plate of food and someone spills it on themselves and gets burned, can you be held liable because it wasn't made by a certified chef?
John Deere isn't stopping you from fixing your own tractor because they're worried about your well being in case you might be held liable for some accident. They're doing it so that they can rip you off. Any manufacturer of machinery, of any kind, would drool over this kind of captive audience. Dishwasher breaks down? It's not really yours, so you must pay the Maytag guy whatever he asks to fix it. Upgrade that video card? Dell sues you for not paying them to do it. After all, you could electrocute yourself. And now it's time to upgrade that PC to Windows 10, it's not like you have a choice here...
If this you-don't-really-own-it mentality spreads it would lead to some kind of hideous distopia. Luckily most manufacturers can't get away with it without losing their customers. Yet.
If you are disabling the DPF on your car the EPA cares. There are a lot of things the EPA cares about, but can't enforce. You can't legally modify certain things on your car and drive it around, technically. You are probably one of those idiots who thinks "derp, I can do anything, I bought it!" But no, you can't. You won't get caught though, unless you fail an emissions test. But you are probably in one of those backward states that doesn't even require that.
And your point is....?
I'm not talking about Chilton and Hayes, I'm talking about factory service manuals. You can download them online, just like you can download Game of Thrones and just about anything else.
I just installed a trailer hitch probably 7 or 8 months ago, and I had to remove the back bumper! Of course, this was a TorkLift stealth "EcoHitch" which was hidden up inside the bumper, unlike those Curt hitches that hang underneath the muffler. It was a bit of a job to install it. However the manufacturer helpfully included detailed instructions with pictures (which looked like they were copied from the factory service manual, which I have a copy of) showing how to install it.
But yeah, you're right: most of that stuff is simple. Usually you can google it and find a discussion forum or a YouTube video showing exactly how to do it. If you need a factory manual to change an air filter, you've got issues.
Mod parent up. Seriously - you a buying an EXPENSIVE piece of equipment - read what you can or cannot do with the equipment before you buy it . Don't like it? Don't buy it! Find a competitor who will meet your needs. Can't find a competitor who will meet your needs - build it yourself or choose what you are willing to compromise on. This same argument can be applied any number of other situations - software EULAs, PCs for family members, wedding rings, etc. etc. Build vs. buy. Negotiate and change the terms if you don't like what's offered to you.
Added comment: I fail to understand why any software vendor should spend the money and risk on DIY diagnostics. Been in too many situations where a customer shot themselves in the foot and has come crying to the vendor to fix it free of charge because of their mistake. DIY diagnostics would increase the probability of this occurring more frequently - the vendor ends up the loser in this situation. Software is complex - it can take YEARS of experience to separate the signal from the noise. Prove to me there is a business case for a software vendor to do this and I'll change my tune. (Note - this is not an argument against open-source, but rather against closed-source DIY. Open-sourcing the software carries its own set of risks - this is dangerous equipment we are talking about here - and would be an interesting case study to read about if anybody knows of a vendor doing this).
Fear-monger much? You should go up your insurance policies because you sound pretty scared of life.
I kinda get the impression that most people here on slashdot have no clue about how much land is used for growing food. The notion that all food production could be moved indoors is laughable.
Have any of you actually seen a farm? A real farm that grows food on thousands and thousands of acres?
We've seen this sort of thing before.
Used to be that farmers would save some of last year's harvest as seed to plant next year. Then along came Monsanto and co and slapped a copyright and a EULA on their seed "technology", and seed-saving became illegal. So now farmers are legally obliged to buy fresh seed every year. And yes, they prosecute for violations, and yes, they do assume guilty until you can prove that your seed contains no Monsanto product, and yes, they will continue to harass.
Guess John Deere took one look at Monsanto's precedent and said "wow, I want some of that rent!"
Hypocrite. 2005 stuff is garbage. Do you not think energy star nor the technologies involved haven't gotten better in 11 years? How about you throw your old bullshit away. You're polluting my grandkid's air!
Have you ever actually seen a vehicle after crashing hard enough to have the airbag is deployed?. The least of your worries is replacing the airbag. Generally if it's hard enough to deploy the airbag its pretty much totaled.
YES! Or a backpack, or a dog, etc.
And yes the piece of plastic that the dealer wanted 4 hours of labor and $250 for the piece of plastic. Found it on a different dealer's site for $100, spent 20 minutes installing it myself.
Yes and no. FJ Cruisers went through a minor structural redesign and an engine swap after 2009. Couldn't find any PDFs anywhere for my 2011 at the time. Besides I'm an old school aircraft mechanic. I like having the books in front of me. I detested trying to use rugged laptops while doing maintenance. B1-B, B52H, B2-A, HH-53, KC-135 (Air Force).
3 times thicker? Hardly try 4, and there are three books that size covering absolutely everything you need to completely break down any portion of the vehicle so you can work on it.
5 years ago when I bought it, you could not find the manuals anywhere. Only for the older versions of the FJ. Completely useless when working on 2010 and on.
5 years after the fact sure there are a dozen videos on YouTube and plenty of forum posts that will walk you through it, but that wasn't the case at the time.
If you aren't retarded then liability is not an issue.
Look around on Amazon. Picked up a techstream OEM plug and some 3rd party software for $30. Be wary of the software as I've heard some have some garbage mixed in. Easy peasy making changes for various settings.
Yeah the cabin air filter is dead simple to replace. Again if you know where to find it. Ask around, 97% of the population doesn't even they exist, much less where to find it, and how to replace it. Which is why the dealers can rip people off charging $40-$60 to replace them. Yes I used to work on half a billion dollar aircraft for the Air Force, but that means jack squat when you are digging around under the hood looking for the GD cabin air filter, not knowing that it was behind the glove box the whole time.
Digging into engine controls and some of the modern handling driver assist stuff is much more so, but the basic ECM settings for everything else is dead simple. Everything on a modern car is hooked up to them, even the dome lights, and then all can be modified through some pretty easy check box settings.
With a lot of vehicles, you can just go to YouTube these days for simple stuff like that. Everyone and his brother now has YT videos for car repairs.
Since when nerds go OUTSIDE?
When the world starts to suck for farmers, the world is really going to suck for people who have to eat.
I see more Kubota dealers around Texas than Deere.
Kubota makes stuff for hobby farms. They deal in small to mid-sized equipment, not the industrial scale stuff. People that are managing 1,000+ acre farms aren't buying Kubota.
Yeah, it might be hard to figure out how to obtain parts overnight
We're not talking about some oil filters and basic supplies you can get from Amazon here. You're thinking like a hobby farmer. The internet is helpful but there are times when you need a proper technician or factory parts which aren't sold direct and that means a factory dealer.
I run a manufacturing company and the big tools we buy cannot be bought off Amazon or anywhere else on the net. Neither can the replacement parts aside from a few consumables. We have to go through the manufacturer or one of their dealers. A cheap one of the presses we buy will start at half a million dollars and go up from there. Farms are no different for the big equipment. The dollar amounts are too large to involve a middle man.
More and more, it's China that is adopting Capitalism and the US seems to becoming Communist. When I pay you for something, I'm buying it - I own it, if you are changing the rules, fine - I will condemn you to the trash-heap of other failed ideas....
There's a lot programmers, sysadmins, and other high-tech people could learn from those who are used to organizing politically for shared ends. Political advocacy is not one of the poorer high-tech person's strengths. There's a streak of undeserved independence in high-tech that doesn't reflect how much people have to work together explicitly for political ends, not dismissing politics as undesirable, unnecessary, or unimportant as you commonly see the high-tech set train each other to espouse.
Digital Citizen
Um.... No.... Do you have enough space to grow enough food for you family year round?.. Farms are needed...
Those dang tractors should be open source!
Is someone making an "Open Source" tractor then? I would think that all this backlash proves there's a captive market for a tractor that is specifically marketed as being open, repairable and free (as in speech).
I live in Northern Vermont, we have a lot of small farms and 98% of the farm machinery I see is ancient. Most farms are using International and Ford tractors built in the 70's and 80's. Partially because Vermont farmers (and most Vermonters) are frugal and practical (read: cheap) and partially because these machines were built tough, are highly repairable and parts are easily available.
How long before they start doing this with new cars? I'm a little surprised it hasn't happened already.
The issue is that no farmer seems to have any balls. This has been litigated for cars and trucks and the reference is the doctrine of first sale.
Maybe now with the farmers' help, the iFixit movement will gain some traction.
An excellent example of the law of unintended consequences.
debugging your tesla
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
So stop buying them.
"And also on farms as we know them today? Why not have farming more distributed if it can be indoors? If everyone is their own farmer then goodbye traditional farms."
With full blown mechanized farming using plenty of herbicides, pesticides, and nitrate fertilizer; it takes about an acre and a half per person for subsistence level farming.
Back before mechanized farming and man made nitrate fertilizer and there was nothing BUT organic farming; it took 4-5 acres per person for subsistence level.
If you want to go paleo and hunter gather for your food; you need about 8 acres per person in your foraging range.
The 8 acres for a hunt and gather economy comes from an explanation to the Harrison administration why the Cherokee, Choctaw, and Chickasaw claimed more land per person than Scots-Irish settlers. The 4-5 acres for organic farming and 1-1.5 for fertilized farming come from a text on the importance of the Haber process to modern civilization. Following the statistics of Malthus; the world was headed for a malthusian catastrophe with the food supply by 1920s. The scaling up of the Haber process for artificial nitrogen fixing in 1913 made a gigantic difference in crop yields.
NRRPT/RCT
You are probably one of those idiots who thinks "derp, I can do anything, I bought it!" But no, you can't. You won't get caught though, unless you fail an emissions test.
And you're probably one of those idiots that think paperwork is more important than common sense. If it passes an emission test, then it complies, modified or not. If the test is so wonky that is passes failing cars, then it is the test at fault, not the modifier of the vehicle.
A pc and a Mac are not the same.
a Ford and a Deere are not the same. Well the little ones are but that is not what they are talking about here. These are highly computerized machines with gps guidance etc. These are multi ton computers.
I bet all of you my slashdot friends have a computer you are using now that says if you put that sound card in you void the warrenties and if you have read every EULA My thoughts and prayers are with your family.
I have sheep. the farmers don't clam me and the ranchers don't want me. But I rub elbows with all and we drink the same coffee.
if you have a little 50 horse tractor with a standard diesel engine your Deere dealer will give you all you need to fix it or you can get it from amazon or ebay or something. If you have a 800hp turbocharged articulated green and yeller and it isn't obvious whats wrong you need to take it to the dealer. I have a 97 ford truck and the chev dealer wont touch it cause he cant afford to buy the proprietary programs to work on fords and the ford dealer has to even for my old one.
wake up it was ever thus and so!
Sometimes 875 horsepower and a whole bunch of bells and whistles isn't enough. Here's one more reason why farmers might want to send John Deere a Deere John letter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLQhvruimfs
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Seatbelt warning...
Same problem. I always start the car first, so that the oil has time to start circulating and warming while I put on the seatbelt.
Stupid buzzer! They could make it only sound if you went into gear, if the government would let them... 8-(
Open source farm equipment could solve the problem. I bet there's farmers that are engineers that could make better equipment
Hummm... since Pokemon Go?
Funny thing about the ECU and other code messages needing to be reset by the factory...I have worked in MFGing for 33 years now...and about Ten years ago I started having problems with some of our newer equipment. Called the techs and they would re set it or give me a passcode...come to find out thru my log books that it was repetitive...reason being...THE EQUIPMENT WAS PROGRAMED TO SHUT DOWN TO ENSURE WE MADE OUR LEASE PAYMENTS OR ACCOUNT WAS UP TO DATE.
This is a simple case of Open Source vs Proprietary.
So buy a brand that lets you work on them then? If no other brands are doing that, why not?
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.