Slashdot Mirror
Outsourced IT Workers Ask Sen Feinstein For Help, Get Form Letter in Return (computerworld.com)
Reader dcblogs writes: A University of California IT employee whose job is being outsourced to India recently wrote Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) for help. Feinstein's office sent back a letter addressing manufacturing job losses, not IT, and offered the worker no assistance. "I am being asked to do knowledge transfer to a foreigner so they can take over my job in February of 2017," the employee, wrote in part. The employee is part of a group of 50 IT workers and another 30 contractors facing layoffs after the university hired an offshore outsourcing firm. The firm, India-based HCL, won a contract to manage infrastructure services. Since the layoffs became public, the school has posted Labor Condition Applications (LCA) notices -- as required by federal law when H-1B workers are being placed. UCSF employees have seen these notices and made some available to Computerworld. They show that the jobs posted are for programmer analyst II and network administrator IV. For the existing UCSF employees, the notices were disheartening. "Many of us can easily fill the job. We are training them to replace us," said one employee who requested anonymity because he is still employed by the university.
Yeah I spent my 4 weeks notice once having to train a Ukrainian to do my job (whole office got closed and outsourced). A few weeks later the Russians annex Crimea, not so far from where the office was moved to.
Democrats tagline about being the party for the little guy is every bit as truthful as Republicans ideas about being the party of fiscal responsibility. They're both so full of shit that they could make billions in the fertilizer business. Lets be clear - all politicians today are there for their own personal enrichment and power. If you ain't the one who paid their bribes, you ain't getting anything back except maybe a form letter.
H-1B abuse like this is one of many reasons why some people feel that their only choice is to vote for Trump's insanity. Desperate people do desperate things.
H-1B Visas are meant to cover skills not readily available in this country. I would argue that if the current workers are training their replacements, then the skill set is readily available in this country. To quote Wiki :
The regulations define a "specialty occupation" as requiring theoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge in a field of human endeavor[1] including but not limited to biotechnology, chemistry, architecture, engineering, mathematics, physical sciences, social sciences, medicine and health, education, law, accounting, business specialties, theology, and the arts, and requiring the attainment of a bachelor's degree or its equivalent as a minimum[2] (with the exception of fashion models, who must be "of distinguished merit and ability").[3] Likewise, the foreign worker must possess at least a bachelor's degree or its equivalent and state licensure, if required to practice in that field.
Tell the university that you simply don't have the skill set required to train your replacement...
How come Slashdot never gets Slashdotted?
I wonder how much Feinstein gets from various pro-offshoring groups to be completely tone-deaf to her own constituents.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
People in India need to eat something, too, and most of them are piss poor in comparison to US standards anyway. It's hard to find a reason why they shouldn't deserve to get work on an international labor market. I bet I'm going to be downvoted for this, and fully understand the personal problems of the workers who get fired, of course, but there is also another side to these kind of stories.
.. don't become an "IT worker", but someone with deep knowledge not easily replaced:
- Data scientist (knowledge of statistics, R/Matlab/Stata/SAS programming)
- Cloud specialist (Azure/EC2/GCE APIs)
- Critical infrastructure specialist (Cisco/HP/Juniper/Brocade networking)
- etc.
Can't retrain for these things in 1 month.
You thought senators and secretaries of state were supposed to work for your benefit?
Almost too cute.
> "I am being asked to do knowledge transfer to a foreigner so they can take over my job in February of 2017,"
I have no idea why employees just sheeplike say yes to doing this shit, instead of taking all your accrued leave and looking for/starting a new job at the same time.
At least dick the company around, phone in sick all the time, and do nothing for your last few months. Certainly never give the foreigner any training or actually true information.
Continuing to elect these kinds of politicians will perpetuate similar responses.
She's 50% of Silicon Valley's home state senate team. Expecting her to take a position anywhere remotely opposed to H1B seems as likely as a NY Senator opposing Wall Street.
It hits too close to home.
This may be a silly question since I've never been in this kind of situation, but why doesn't the IT staff all collectively refuse to train their outsourced replacements? Or go on strike? Even if they aren't unionized, they could go on strike (I assume). Am I just making some bad assumptions here?
It's worth noting that calling, or even visiting in person, are the most effective ways to get a response from a public official. As stated in the article, public officials are deluged with email. Phone calls and visits are less common, therefore getting more attention than other ways of communicating. Something as serious as a request for an investigation is serious enough to warrant the time investment into a more personal method of communication.
That's one way to totally give everyone asking for help the finger. Way to go. I hope people vote that person out next time...
Sorry for the AC posting, but...
My company worked with HCL. Not a bad company in their own right. They took over our tech debt so we could, in theory, focus on building new things. Started off with a big seminar about how indian culture is different from american culture. Uhhh, OK, informative I guess.
It lasted about 9 months before we dropped them. We had to wait a full year for the contract to run out. Their coding was decent, language was decent. Time was the real barrier here. They were working when we were asleep and vice versa. It's just not an ideal setup to try and have people submitting code and doing QA work in the middle of the night. Because if you have a question on why they did what they did, you send out an e-mail, wait a day, get a response, send it back. Everything just grinds to a halt.
It might be cheaper on paper, but it's fucking stupid. It creates to much of a time barrier between you and the people doing the work.
But wait, I thought it was only the evil Republicans that did this to us?
)O_o(
https://www.reddit.com/r/trees
Form letter printed and mailed by Raj in Mumbai.
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
Farm jobs, 1790, 90% of the labor force. Manufacturing took all our hard-working farm jobs.
Dock and rail worker jobs, 1920. The shipping pallet cut 4 days work down to 4 hours.
Manufacturing jobs, 1990. Globalization took away all our jobs.
IT jobs, 2015. H1B foreigners are taking our jobs.
Long-term result has been expansion of population, increase in per-capita GDP, increase in the buying power of the middle- and lower-class families, a stronger job market, people spending less on food and clothing and more on entertainment and HEALTHCARE of all things, and the development of things like IT jobs instead of just a bunch of factory workers and shit shovelers. The long-term result has ALSO been the creation of a lot of retail and service (fast food) jobs, and a lot of domestic shipping jobs.
The short-term result has always been a displacement of workers. 40% of the U.S. workforce turns over every year (which is why there's always Help Wanted signs--no, folks, the 5% unemployed aren't lazy drug addicts abusing the welfare system; there are legitimately just not jobs for everyone), and some 1.5%-2% retire and get replaced by new workers (college graduates), which means a skill replacement rate of some 1%-2% is safe. Still, those displaced workers mean the rest of us get richer, and even they benefit in the long run; but 6 months from now is a distant thought when you've just lost your job.
I get it, really. I don't want to lose my job. You don't want to lose your job. I also don't want to live in 1990 forever. You see all these cell phones, high-speed Internet, and all the cheap food? The sheer buying power of the middle-class, the increase in available health care, and the massive amount of shit like video games and tablets and audiobooks we buy? Netflix, the entire IT industry (which only exists because it can sell things like Netflix), the like? That's the result of people losing their jobs for a little while along the way. What brought us from 1990 to 2016 is this kind of shit.
Yes, it's irritating. It's sad. It's unfair. It's ALL unfair. We either kick a few good people out on the street and wait for the economy to cycle around and get them (or a proportional number of others who were facing terminal unemployment) back into new jobs to enjoy the new economy; or we protect their jobs and make *everyone* suffer a stagnant, decaying economy until, 50 years from now, we look like North Korea. Which is fair?
I keep pushing for a Universal Social Security. No tax increase required. Remediates the welfare system completely. Gives everyone an absolute share of technical progress--the savings these steps forward bring us, the new wealth, has a fraction cleaved off and distributed equally to all Americans. The poorest benefit most; the richest aren't taxed anything more for it; everyone else kind of scales.
It's a contemporary fix. If we did it in 1950, everyone from the lower-middle-class up would have to give up nearly *all* their money and receive the standard stipend; the richest of rich would be barely more wealthy than the poorest-of-poor, and we'd collapse like the USSR. Since 2013, it's been doable without cutting the rich down, and without substantially narrowing the income distribution. This creates a firm, stable basis for the poorest-of-poor and, importantly, for the people who lose their jobs to these things.
No, it's not fair. The system I propose is better than today, doesn't cut into anyone, lowers business taxes, reduces the cost of paying employees (read: more jobs, cheaper products), and lessens the financial damage done to an individual who loses his job. It's still not fair, because that guy is still (temporarily) the sacrificial lamb that takes us all into a better future. It's less-bad, and more-optimal. That happens to be important.
Yes, I found a way to at least give the child of Omelas better food without destroying society, even if we still have to keep him locked up in the basement.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
Why would you then train him at all? You got your 4 weeks notice, go to work, throw them a manual and let them figure it out. If they complain, say "he doesn't understand me very well".
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Yeh sure, those Polish workers he hired or the Russian models he hired, none of them were on H1Bs, all on tourist visas working illegally. Google "Trump Polish Workers".
Face it, you really want to vote for the man who writes his website, not Trump:
Kelly said: "Mr. Trump, your campaign website to this day argues that more visas for highly skilled workers would, quote, "decimate American workers." However, at the CNBC debate, you spoke enthusiastically in favor of these visas. So which is it? Trump shrugged off the question and said he was in favor of the visas. "I'm changing. I'm changing. We need highly skilled people in this country," Trump said. "And if we can't do it, we'll get them in."
It's a pity they chose Trump, he's a bit of a fruit loop.
I'm an IT worker at UCSF myself, although they couldn't work out a deal to replace my own department so my own job is safe. This coming year, the official goal for our bonus is to successfully finish outsourcing. There is much consternation about the outsourcing initiative here. People are very unhappy about it. However, the Office of the President recently authorized our new 'career track' job titles as eligible for union membership--and the union's pushing hard to bring us on.
Now, unions get a lot of flak here on /. and in many places in the States. But this isn't about the merits of us joining a union and here I offer no position on that. No, no--they're silencing us by hanging an already meager bonus over our heads. It's kind of like we're being bribed and intimidated to stay contrite.
I'd follow this story in the news if you're interested in this stuff and want to get a bit of a deeper look into how insidious these initiatives are than you would with an organization not in the public sector. Not sure what all I know is privileged so I'll stop at that, but there's some reeeeeal stinky shit here and it's only a matter of time til this porta potty cleaning truck flips over on 101...
At this point it's better to actively sabotage the effort while you look for other employment and then quit. I've fought this battle in a different field, it didn't do anyone any favors to go along with it, including the corporate masters who thought they were saving money. The best policy is subtle sabotage: make enemies, say vague things, give wrong directions when someone talks to you without a paper trail then deny or dissemble. The government has sold you out, unions won't work here, so at this point misbehaving and taking their money for as long as it lasts is the best policy.
My company has been outsourcing with HCL for years now, they are a shitty group. People coming and going all the time. I think I've seen like 3 get married and disappear so it's like a hookup center or something there.
Usually they make your severance dependent upon it.
Haven't been in exactly the same situation, but was given three months notice when the US branch of a UK company decided it was time to shut down the US branch and have the development be centralized at the UK offices. I had to train my UK counterparts during that three months, or else not get severance.
In my case the situation was understandable (which is not to say I agreed with it), and we went our separate ways on good terms. I can't imagine how horrible the workers described above felt, and Diane Feinstein is up there with DWS as one of the worst Democrats ever.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Because the alternative is to have to write the manual....
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
Put all FICA on employees onto the employee if they're American citizens. Otherwise the foreign national not only pays the full rate, but the employer pays the original employer portion on top of that (so about 150% FICA total). Contracts would be subject to a FICA excise tax of 2-3x the ordinary FICA rate with no limit on the value of the contract.
Why did you not sue? This is ILLEGAL.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
should be compliant...
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Right, whether they wanted to or not. Which smart phone is it that's made in the US again? Oh right, there isn't one.
What did you expect from Frakenfeinstein? Did you really expect help from a Democrap? Why don't you ask a Republicant for help.... Oh didn't work either? HA it doesn't matter who you ask in politics to help they are all on the same team and we are all f-ed in the end. H1Bs for all!
Their lawyers are cheap and can make his life a living hell. Heck, the companies could sue him for damages. Anything goes today in your "American Dream".
These workers are going to be unemployed - but they aren't yet. They are being paid. If they could all quit now! and pickup unemployment while looking for a new job --- that would be a finger in the eye of their employer. However - I'm sure employers know this and it is what makes the equation work.
If there was a way for them to band together and all quit now - the equation wouldn't work. There is no incentive to remain - go find a job now! Regardless of what carrot the HR dept is hanging in front of you - your life career starts tomorrow, don't delay it. And for those who can quit now... do it.
But let's face it. Automation & Robots are coming and will fill some of these jobs in the near future. Farming used to have lots of labor - but now machines have replaced the laborer. Which is fine because most don't want this kind of hard work - certainly not for the pay.
I think some of these IT jobs are going the same way. Train thy self and move up to a job that can't be so easily replaced. And keep in mind - management is being automated too. These jobs will most likely disappear from the workforce in "10 years."
No, it is not. The government's duty is to protect us from external enemies and internal criminals. Nobody owes you any actual support — that is, you can not count on other people giving you anything of theirs, only on them not taking away anything of yours.
Back to the original topic, I can not see, how an employer can be considered wrong not buying labor from the same folks, who are themselves happy to buy imported goods. We are all selling something (such as our labor) to buy something — and Free Trade expands the markets for both sellers and buyers. It sucks to be on the losing side, but that's life...
If you ban trading with India, the employer may consider moving work away from the expensive California towards a cheaper State — will we be talking about banning interstate commerce next, the way health insurance is already banned (under a variety of bogus excuses), for example?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Feinstein, a member of the US Congress, doesn't actually have any authority over the UC system. Governor Jerry Brown and the state legislature yes, US Senate, no. So, is she supposed to give a job to everyone in the UC system that gets outsourced? Really?
You probably had grounds to force the payment of the severance anyway, in your case, as its a UK company and under British rules severance is not contingent on anything - the company makes you redundant and pays your severance, they cannot put strings on it. You would probably have had to file in a UK court, but thats not much of an issue.
That is why you don't hear of these horror stories of "I had to train my replacement" in the UK - we simply don't have to do that.
Why should she help you? What are you going to do, vote Republican?
You made yourself a captive and an enabler of a one-party system. Don't be surprised when you end up taken for granted and your concerns are ignored.
It's as if the good Senator outsourced (or at least automated) her replies. Though I am surprised she hasn't needed to create a standard form letter specifically to IT outsourcing, it seems to happen frequently enough.
If it isn't outsourced or fully automated it's some poor intern going through hundreds of these emails each day.
Scott Adams (who writes Dilbert) is on vacation in Switzerland, and his recent blog post had this snippet, which got me really angry:
[...] I also asked the Swiss man what kind of problems they have in Switzerland. He laughed again. The answer is “none.” Literally.
Good economy.
Plenty of jobs.
No racial strife.
Low crime rate.
Highest standard of living.
No real pollution.
No litter.
No homeless that I could see.
The reason it angered me is that here's a country where the government tries to give the citizens a good life. They have fixed all of the major problems and are just letting their citizens live in quiet enjoyment.
The Swiss government is considering implementing a guaranteed minimum income.
Over here in the US, our infrastructure is crumbling, our healthcare is at 3rd world level, jobs are scarce (and we're outsourcing more and more), and two thirds of the people are on the brink of poverty, and the government spies on and opresses everyone.
It's as if the government sees the people as some sort of harvest-able crop whose purpose is to provide taxes, where their only efforts are towards maximum yield.
Well, I was employed by a US company owned by a UK company, and to make matters even more confusing, the UK company had been bought and is owned by a US corporation, so I don't know where the legalities would have laid!
That said, large businesses tend to try to be fair with severances, because of the affect it'll have on those who remain if they start shitting on those they make redundant...
I suspect we don't hear horror stories about US companies outsourcing to UK companies because it isn't that common, UK wages are lower than US wages but they're not dramatically lower and overall costs are probably not orders of magnitude different. It's not like India.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
That is why you don't hear of these horror stories of "I had to train my replacement" in the UK - we simply don't have to do that.
Also our companies for the most part aren't farming out work to cheap foreign labour on the basis that locals can't do the work even though they are doing it and have to train the people that are apparently more capable of said work, all while having to pay them the same anyway because that makes no fucking sense. As I understand it that's pretty much the h1b situation. If I'm wrong please correct me.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
I worked for a company which outsourced work to HCL and eventually outsourced me. They were generally competent but what struck me was the inefficiency of the process. Our data centre was about half a mile from our office, run by a third party. We could visit but only for special reasons and by appointment. Any everyday requests had to be sent to HCL in India who would relay them to the data centre people who would do the work. Communications returned along the same route. For some reason the messages weren't transferred verbatim and often had interesting variations. After the third time of asking are you *really* sure that cable is connected to that port because that's not what I'm seeing here and being reassured that yes it is, only to have it start working a while later for no apparent reason, well it became tiresome. Each stage in the chain also involved a cost and a variable delay.
vote for Hillary.
Because the alternative is to have to write the manual....
I would write the manual in English, and then use Google translate to convert it into the new employee's native language...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Wrote to my congress critters twice. My impression is, this is the standard operating procedure. They read the first couple of sentences and fire off a canned response even if it doesn't address what you actually said, or worse, contradicts it. The whole "you can contact your representative" thing is such bullshit. These people only care when they're running for office. Once elected, they become the "ruling class" and don't give any shit whatsoever.
If you voted for Feinstein and find yourself in this position, you deserve it.
Unless you agreed to train your replacement for severance pay when you were hired, they can't make it dependant upon your willingness to do so. If they illegally refuse to pay you what was agreed upon, go file a judgment against the company. Most companies won't try to fight you in court, they'll just pay you off to get rid of you.
If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer Simpson
I suspect regardless of corporate ownership the "legalities" involved have more to do with where you are physically located as you need to follow the law of the country where you operate.
That said the only thing that might make that even more confusing is if you worked for the US company and telecommuted from the UK... I suspect you would still be subject to US labor laws at that point, but I'm even less sure of that situation!
They acknowledged that the reply came from the Senator's office - rather than the Senator herself - but what makes them so sure it was a form letter? The underling who sent it might not have realized what exactly they were replying to and may have mistaken it for another letter about lost manufacturing jobs.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Do people ever walk rather than train up their replacement? It strikes me that it would be a point of pride. I seriously could not see myself co-operating. GTFO and let them figure it out themselves, no?
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
It's not like India.
Oh... Give it a few years.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
And if they need it in English, translate it back.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
You don't address your U.S. Senator about anything in your personal situation. There are 100 Senators for the nation. The proper contact is your district's U.S. Representative. And you don't email - you make a telephone call to talk to the Congressman's aide who represents your problem - in this case labor issues. (Unless you're a major contributor.)
I'll admit that I once got a personal response from Senator John McCain to a question I asked him about native-birth requirements and if a person born in Hawaii pre-statehood would qualify to be President. He thought so but also thought I should become a constitutional lawyer. That was back in 1981 - not a birther, sorry - and I was in elementary school. But I wouldn't expect such a response today; I'd expect the same level of personal attention that I would in trying to contact Harrison Ford, Stephen Hawking, or Katy Perry.
Welcome out of Kindergarten and into Real Life 101.
"Many of us can easily fill the job. We are training them to replace us"
Are you willing to do it at the rate the indians are willing to do it for?
In addition to pla's excellent reasons, I'd like to point out that most Americans live pay to paycheck. There simply isn't any savings to fall back on if they suddenly get unemployed and it takes a while to find a new job. Additionally, if you don't cooperate in training your replacements, you may be fired for cause and my understanding is that you won't get unemployment money if you are fired for cause. I don't want to digress, but my previous job was working for a US office of a European company and my company gave my team 6 months notice that they were outsourcing our jobs to another country. I ended up leaving for another job before those 6 months expired and I got no severance package. They made us sign forms earlier in the year that basically said we agreed that they could do some tricks, like lay us off and rehire us, to get out of paying severance. I'm sure it was highly illegal, but who has the time and money to sue them? And we had a post here some years ago where an employment lawyer told us that lawsuits against employers rarely succeed, even when the employer has clearly been in the wrong and it can be proven. He said his standard reply to clients was to not hire him and not sue and just move on with their lives because the odds were they'd be happier that way.
I'm not sure what the guy expected from a politician who doesn't even understand the legislation she tables. "Shoulder thing that goes up" is about all you need to know about the senator from Commiefornia.
What he doesn't know about the Swiss is they regulate the crap out of everyone. Health Insurance must be not for profit and the Gov't have price controls on the fees doctors and hospitals can charge insurance. The Swiss are the most capitalistic lot in Europe and even they recognize when you're injured or hurt you're in no position to negotiate. I don't see conservatives (or Scott Adams) lining up behind gov't mandated price controls.
Feinstein represents something like 35 million people. You think she gives a flying f*ck about you? Unless you are a billionaire, a big corporation, a big interest group, or a big donor, you don't exist. Hahahaha. Welcome to "democracy."
I thought it was only Indians who needed to be trained to replace US workers. Eastern Europeans too?
Unfortunately, it ain't. In the case of H1Bs, if he had to train an H1B worker to do his job, that would be illegal, since one of the factors that such a visa is contingent on is being able to prove that there is no US citizen or permanent resident that they've been able to find to do the same job. But in this case, that wouldn't apply, since they already had someone who was doing it.
But if they have to train either an American citizen/permanent resident, or a foreigner living abroad - in the above case, a Ukrainian living in Ukraine, there are no laws that prevent a company from making the severance contingent on the replacement worker being trained.
Run the manual through google translate to Klingon and then to their native language, then back to English. Rinse and repeat a few times. Then hand the translated document over to your replacements and tell them that the entire office staff were fluent in Klingon and often compose documents in Klingon.
I am Swiss. Switzerland provides safe haven for plenty of refugees: https://www.statista.com/stati...
At-Will-Employment. The employer can terminate you for refusal to carry out order to train your replacement, in which case it counts as firing and not layoff.
Doesn't apply as it was in the US, where US labour laws are followed rather than much saner UK/EU ones.
Even so, unfortunately the Tories have been whittling away employment rights for the last few years: statutory redundancy pay is now one week's pay per year working for that company (with nothing if you've worked there for less than two years), and capped at £479/wk or £14370 total, whichever is lower. Oh, and you get less if you started when you were under 22, because fuck you.
Many companies had contract terms that were far better than this, but increasingly they are "revising" their terms down in line with legislation to give people the bare minimum. It's absolutely idiotic behaviour when repeated studies have shown that having happy, secure and motivated employees more than pays for itself in terms on increased productivity. Conversely, if your company treats it's employees like shit, expect them to put in the minimum effort not to get fired. These beancounters are strangling the very life out of the companies they work for, even as they present nice graphs of quarter-on-quarter "savings" to the board...
A small firm I worked at a few years ago started down this path; suddenly everything needed approval from the Almighty Accounts Department; new projects were put on hold because they wouldn't be profitable this quarter, every expenses invoice got the full Spanish Inquisition treatment etc. Anyone who was any good just updated their CV and moved on, with the exception of my assistant who felt honour-bound to stay with the firm that had given him his big break. With almost no talent left the company had to start laying people off, and cutting hours for back office staff. It became more important to look like you were busy than to actually achieve anything. It turned out that one person who had a reputation as a hard worker had basically been getting in early every day, spending all morning photocopying documents, and all afternoon shredding them, and leaving late, just because they needed to look like they were busy to keep their job. When I last caught up with my former assistant, he told me that revenue was down 80%, headcount down 75%, and the only new hire in the last three years had been yet another accountant.
Employment law is based largely on where you physically work. If you were in the UK, you'd be considered under UK employment laws regardless of what rabbit hole of ownership there is.
There are cases where one could be hired for a US position and you just happen to spend time in the country, but even then you could make the claim of 'working in the UK'. You would have to state why the work wasn't a one-off, or a short duration work assignment.
If you telecommute then moved from the US to the UK without employer direction, I have no idea what status you'd have...
Bye!
People of good character don't get far in politics, if they bother to become politicians at all.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
When I went through this, I only answered the specific questions they had. I never told them more than they asked that would have helped understand things much more.
from 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
to 45 2F 6E 40 3C DF 10 71 4E 41 DF AA 25 7D 31 3F
"he _says_ he intends to fix the rules" " in their(his) best interest"
Loose your severance that way. When it comes to putting food on the table for a few months while you try to find a new job that means alot.
No, that isn't quite right. They aren't actually obligated to pay any severance in these cases. They say "we will pay you a severance IF you train these people for this amount of time". You have to sign a form saying you will do so and do so in good faith or there is no severance. They aren't required to pay one.
For the people who are/will get fired, this is how globalization works. Big companies crush smaller ones in other countries and cheap labor / outsourcing takes the rest
Whats the difference? Let me guess its OK for a White guy to take another White Guys job (thats free market) but not for a Brown guy to take a White guy's job. Most of the complaints against offshoring and H1Bs are at their core racism.
**Life is too short to be serious**
I've written Feinstein several times. She is actually pretty clueless when it come to technology. She is more than happy to crank up government spying on everyone. I sure wont be voting for her in 2018.
Many companies had contract terms that were far better than this, but increasingly they are "revising" their terms down in line with legislation to give people the bare minimum. It's absolutely idiotic behaviour when repeated studies have shown that having happy, secure and motivated employees more than pays for itself in terms on increased productivity.
But severance pay isn't relevant to making employees happy, secure, and motivated. For the ones who are employed, it doesn't matter what the severance pay is. For the ones for whom it matters-- you're dumping them anyway, who cares if they're not happy, secure, and motivated?
Of course, a decent severance package might make a difference to whether they add time bombs to the source code before they go. But that's a different issue.
Exactly what has happened here in the Seattle area with Sen. Maria Cantwell (WA-Neocon) and Patty Murray (WA-Neocon), faux crats up the wazoo! They say the companies HAVE TO OFFSHORE THE JOBS TO COMPETE, or to replace American workers with foreign visa workers to compete, etc., yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah, and shove more corporate money up my skankhole! That's why a plane needs to be flown into congress and the supremecy court!
I will end forever the use of the H-1B as a cheap labor program, and institute an absolute requirement to hire American workers first for every visa and immigration program. No exceptions."
And in order to do that, he will have to get Congress to repeal the law.
And if/when Trump tries, the IT and the rest of corporate America who loves the program will swarm down on Congress and put a kibosh to any attempt to repeal it.
And that's what Trump supporters do NOT get: Trump is making promises that are impossible for him to keep because they are outside the powers of the POTUS.
In other words, he WILL be a huge disappointment to those who are relying on him to follow through with his promises. Now, if one just wants someone to fuck things up for 4 years; he's your man because the Republicans and Democrats are going to gang up on him.
.... If they illegally refuse to pay you what was agreed upon, go file a judgment against the company.
Having had several friends go through filing lawsuits for restitution against actions that were clearly, obviously, and evidently illegal... I'd say your advice is idiotic.
A friend of mine once explained how a lawsuit works. Your lawyer and the opposition lawyer have a stack of hundred-dollar bills in front of them, and each is given a lighter. They take turns flaring off the hundreds in front of the judge. The one whose pile runs out first looses.
Most companies won't try to fight you in court, they'll just pay you off to get rid of you.
Most companies will fight just on general principles, and because they figure you will fold, and in any case won't have the resources to take it all the way to trial. They have in-house lawyers who are being paid anyway.
Interesting, I would have assumed UK labour laws to be less employee friendly than those in Ireland*, yet my I know people in Ireland who've been expected to train outsourced replacements.
* I don't know why, maybe it's a "grass is greener" thing
. . . ignoring and never addressing the problems, claiming the Reaganesque cowboy solutions which are all bullcrap, sonny! STFU and hand over your government contracting fees for simpleton trolling! NOW!
Vermonter with the silly question, try to get a place to live, or any jobs, without a reference! Just try it, Vermonter . . .
When I went through this, I only answered the specific questions they had. I never told them more than they asked that would have helped understand things much more.
It wouldn't matter. Asking to understand things isn't how most of the cheap offshore cultures work.
In much of Asia, you are given instructions and you do what you are told. Period. You're literally not being paid to think. It's up the the manager to ask the questions and then instruct their subordinates.
That's good!
They would simply bring the Tata Consultancy, haven't you read a single newspaper over the past 20 years, douchey???????
TIAA, or is it called the Software Alliance now? Or the National Association of Manufacturers? Or the Business Roundtable. Douchetard! Traitor scum!
This.
And don't bother with the manual.
And if they make your severance package dependent on it, steal everything that isn't nailed down or encrypted on your way out the door. Call it your "severance package".
Just make sure you always refuse to train your H1B replacement. H1B's are supposed to be skilled worker visas anyway. If they're not skilled enough to replace you without your help, then they're not skilled enough to legally qualify for the H1B itself. Hold the system to its promises.
Best severance deal I ever got was 90 days notice, immediate release to 100% job-hunting (i.e. Cube, Net, and Phone, but outside the work area), and 6 months benefits after my last day. That was a major US corp, rhymes with "Going". . .
Most places I've worked didn't give ANY severance..
I would write the manual in Latin, mixing in Hiragana translations of technical terms that have no Latin equivalent. The onus is on the reader to convert into a form that he or she can understand. It's not my fault that the reader can't understand Latin and Japanese.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
No, most of the complaints about H1B's is that they hire foreign workers (and they have a color, because most people aren't translucent, but the color is mostly immaterial because brown people can do the same jobs pink people can), and those foreign workers are not skilled, but the H1B program is for skilled worker visas. Companies are replacing their local workers with cheaper foreign workers that aren't legally eligible for the visa required in order for them to work in this country.
And it's also being used as a brain-drain program. They're training unskilled workers on H1B (which is illegal) and then treating the program as a revolving door for new unskilled workers, almost like you would treat a software "seat license". This is happening en masse, and it should be halted. By force, if necessary. (Police + guns + reports of illegal human trafficking = H1B seat-swapping has been suspended at Infosys, pending a massive criminal investigation! Internet trolls, I call on you to make this happen! I can dream, can't I?)
She's for open borders in the entire Western Hemisphere - from Ellesmere Island to Tierra del Fuego. That's what's there in the latest WikiLeaks emails
The other employees knowing they will be treated decently in the event they are not needed is important. Talent retention is often hard. If you know that the company you would for would cut you lose without so much as a few months pay would you stay if you saw a similarly compensated job offer available at another firm who had a positive reputation for taking care of employees?
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Oh yea a man after my own heart
Unless its a class action thing with you and a bunch of other employees in a similar situation its not worth it. The other case where you can prevail is if its a very small firm you were working for that has not got its own legal department.
Any company with its own legal department will fight, because it costs them little to do so. They are already paying to have their lawyers hanging around. You on the other hand are having to retain council at your expense.
Even if you win you loose because its unlikely you'll walk away with more than you would have if you'd instead spent your time finding anther job and drawing a new salary form some place else.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
The one whose pile runs out first looses.
And you call the other poster idiotic.
It's kinda funny too - as I've had to train my Indian replacements (at Adobe). I heard from the layoff survivors that not a single one of them had any clue what I was talking about or showing them.
In other words - its a pointless waste of time. You simply can't uproot a whole office and replace everyone and expect smooth sailing.
Not if you don't want HR to black ball you where reference calls are concerned.
In the end you options are, they will say little or nothing other than that you were laid off and not fired for cause, or they will say you were insubordinate; thus preventing you from getting another job.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
> makes you redundant and pays your severance,
IN some EU counties, if this happens, they can not hire anyone to fill your position for next 6 months. If they want to do it, they have to offer it to you first.
and to make matters even more confusing
There's nothing confusing about employment law. It doesn't matter where you physically work or where your company is incorporated, all that matters is where you get paid and to whom you owe taxes.
I worked for a British company in China, yet all the Australian employment laws applied because that's where I got paid.
Because only white people are Americans amirite guys?
Now who's the racist?
Much of the coding can be done remotely but it needs US employees to take phone calls at night with India which people are not open to if they do not belong to the same company. So if you give the entire contract to an Indian company they can reduce the number of people who need to be at site , do most of the coding and management from offshore while having the key client interaction employees be in the US and have these employees work with offshore. These employees need to be a special breed - they need to be technically sound enough to do the hands on coding job, personable enough with clients to get the proper requirements and be patient enough to coach offshore teams at night. generally these jobs are done by 3 differnt people in traditional American companies so whenan HCL hires Coders or Business Analysts or Trainers locally these folks give up soon when they realize they have to do 3 different jobs. Plus they have no empathy for the offshore workers. On the other hand an offshore worker brought here on an H1B does have the empathy and has been on the other side of the table so he or she works out. In practice this means even the onsite positions are filled by H1Bs not locals.
The cost savings are realized based on having some uniquely skilled folks with strong loyalty to a company being at onsite.
Its a unique advantage Indian companies have that given the large population they are able to hire large numbers of such difficult to find people.
Theres no point complaining about it. It would be like complaining why people prefer Fizzy wine from the region of Champagne in France rather than Fizzy wine from somewhere else. Champagne just has some small but measurable geographical advantage and the same is for Indian Outsourcing companies.
**Life is too short to be serious**
Note the Parent poster did not complain about the White foreigner (from UK) taking his job but felt the Brown foreigner (from India) taking the Original Posters jobs was a travesty. Also when I use Brown and White I am referring to attitudes. Most Browns born and brought up in the US have White attitudes and are just as racist towards Browns as Whites brought up in the US.
**Life is too short to be serious**
No.. they're about driving down wages by replacing competent people with cheaper alternatives who aren't so competent.. Why do you think existing employees have to 'train' them before looking for new jobs?
If you expect to go into the office every day and do the same thing over and over and get paid a good wage for it in IT - those days are over. Repetitive common tasks are being outsourced because - rightly or wrongly - they are being percieved as not requireing significant skills, and targets for automation.
On the other hand - if you are smart, you will look for unique opportunities and skills that are in demand. This is your opportunity to define yourself in the job market, rather than letting an employer define you.
Security, Data Analytics, and related automation are easy low hanging fruit. Additional areas that you might focus on include data driven AI, robotics, and healthcare. Reference: http://www.modis.com/it-insights/infographics/top-it-jobs-of-2017/
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
In the UK situation HE was the foreigner. Are you that dense you racist?
This is just stupid. The Russians are not Republicans, they simply think that the US will be weakened if Trump takes power. There is a saying I keep seeing in Eastern European publications: "Not all Trump supporters hate the United States, but all those who oppose the US hopes he gets elected." Or in simpler language "Not all who love Trump hate the US, but all those who hate the US wish him luck." Russia, North Korea, ISIS, etc... certainly do.
I don't know whether those who think that a Trump presidency will polarize, weaken and isolate the US are correct. But I do know that almost every foreigner I've talked to believes it. I have no doubt Putin believes it, and thus would not be surprised if he does everything he can to make it happen.
No good deed goes unpunished...
It's illegal for them to say why you were let go.
It's becoming faster to get a security clearance. I'm not sure this still applies.
... hard to see in their heads.
I hear about companies on government contracts that still try to have Russians do their software development. I hear about the ones that get busted.
I've heard about older IT/SW workers that can't get clearance jobs even though they have a clearance cuz' reasons.
Might matter a bit to some companies, though
Probably negotiated by a union. One of the few things they're useful for, although you may well have paid more than that in dues over the years.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Um...
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
But in my MBA courses they said workers are interchangeable cogs to be moved about as the enlightened management sees fit! Modern management theory couldn't possibly be complete bullshit, could it??
There is no right to property. Thus "just compensation" is not "all the profit I could have made"
Bullshit. I award you zero points, etc.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The obsession with bigotry and racism is my favorite part of modernity. I sure do love me some thought crime.
Because suing cost money and most of the time the powerful corporation with deep pockets and much netter lawyers on retainer will crush you. It's the American Way. And with a massive corporate whore about to win the Presidency, it's probably only going to get worse.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Why did you not sue? This is ILLEGAL.
How much money do you have to pay a lawyer?
And even if you do sue, and win; odds are the lawyer will take a cut and the IRS will take the rest, and you will still be fucked.
It's not all perfect. Look at who they've got for neighbours.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
You simply train them poorly. Follow the letter of the law, but not the spirit. Shortcut for a process that'snot covered in official documentation but secure and widely used? They don't need to know. Have them do everything twice, as some manual somewhere requires. Teach them the most ponderous and difficult tool for gaining network information, and demand they employ it. Make them into slow, barely worthwhile employees.
It may be illegal all you want, but the side with the most money and lawyers will always win. You can fight but you won't see the end of it. You will be broke in no time. Yes, it sucks. No, it's not fair. But the world is not fair. There are battles you can't fight. Do as you're instructed, take your severance pay and move on. Pick those fights you can win and stick to those. It's as simple as that.
Most things are greener in Ireland. I think it is to attract tourists.
In IT? Shit, anybody competent can get a job in a few weeks, not months. Anybody sensible (especially in the US where there are minimal employment protections) has a few months worth saved up.
It's 15 years since I didn't have at least 3 months running costs tucked away. I'm absolutely certain I can find a job in 3 months, and pretty confident I can find a good one too in that timeframe in the current economy.
He's basically right. Most people don't understand how the American legal "system" "works." When it comes to litigation, the litigant with the deeper pockets, who can plow the opposition under with more and more onerous filings, usually prevails. The point is to push the other side into litigation that's going to be more expensive than the proposed settlement. Almost nothing goes to trial.
The difference is that a UK company was downsizing and decided to close a US office. If it had been an Indian company downsizing and deciding to close a US office, the situation wouldn't have been any different. I'm struggling to figure out how you brought racism or H1Bs into this discussion as neither are relevant.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Good lord, the Racism everywhere crowd should time travel to the 1950s and talk to the Communism is everywhere crowd. I bet you'd get along fine. Pretty soon some senator might just start a House UnDiversity Activities Committee to prosecute such things.
they can easily get around it. Over the phone. "Oh, THAT guy.... Yeah, he "worked" here between the dates you mentioned. No comment ever on if I'd ever hire him back. "
Seriously, a dentist is a messy job, but DAMN they get paid.
In the US severance is usually at the discretion of the company and decided when you are fired what they choose to give you. Unless you can negotiate plush CxO type contract you get what they offer.
It may happen, just not on any scale that gets reported. Our workers just get fucked in other ways like zero hour contracts and such.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Under what imaginary law is it illegal for them to tell people why you were let go?
Be specific
I don't think active sabotage is a good solution for legal reasons but, you can certainly get the desired effect by answering questions like this:
- "Strange. I'll have to look into that." ."
- "I'm not sure how that works. That guy left a long time ago."
- "We don't have a system for handling that exact problem."
- "Oh, don't worry about , come over here and let me show you
Basically, teach them nothing but be very pleasant and professional about it. You get your severance pay and in a month when the manager calls you because everything is broken, you can politely tell him to go fuck himself.
This. This is why Trump needs our votes.
He won't fix it, but maybe the oligarchs will see there are enough of us displaced workers with votes to pay attention too.
Or maybe they'll just slaughter us.
The best part of writing it in Latin is they may summon a demon by accident...
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
I modded something incorrectly -- commenting to delete it.
And the UK court's response would be like: "You are in the USA, working for a US subsidiary? LOL. Get out of here and, by the way, pay your former employer's legal costs on the way out."
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
AT&T Just announced 4600 management layoffs (non-union). Folks with 13 years or more are getting 6 months severance pay and 60 days time to look for jobs.
Not to mention that getting a judgment is one thing, but actually collecting it is quite another. Plus, don't be surprised if the company files suit against you for one thing or another. Doesn't really cost them anything, and that's more time and expense for you to deal with.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
You probably had grounds to force the payment of the severance anyway, in your case, as its a UK company and under British rules severance is not contingent on anything - the company makes you redundant and pays your severance, they cannot put strings on it. You would probably have had to file in a UK court, but thats not much of an issue.
That is why you don't hear of these horror stories of "I had to train my replacement" in the UK - we simply don't have to do that.
The hiring of H1-b employees is such a slap in the face when I even think a company is going to do that I tend to find a different job , put in my 2 weeks and lt this =e damn indians figure shit out on their own. If they are so smart they shouldn't need training.
Furthermore: Arbitration clauses in just about all modern employment contracts will negate this sort of lawsuit, as well. MMmm.. who do you think will win that case?
democRATS are the champions of workers, the poor, those struggling. BHHAAAAAAAAAA The "poor" have been worse off, since the welfare programs of the 60's. Blacks are worse off than before the welfare programs. LBJ was quoted as saying after signing the welfare programs in the 60's, "I'll have those n*****s voting democrat for 200 years". It's been over 50, and they are STILL voting for them! Their lot in life gets worse each year, but STILL they continue to vote for them. The Republicans, responsible for all the change during/after the civil war, have been made out to be the "bad guys" and a lot of liberal democrats who were in the KKK, have been made out to be the "good guys". I think some blacks have started to figure this out, which is why the push is on to import a new sub-culture class...illegal aliens.
It's kinda funny too - as I've had to train my Indian replacements (at Adobe). I heard from the layoff survivors that not a single one of them had any clue what I was talking about or showing them.
In other words - its a pointless waste of time. You simply can't uproot a whole office and replace everyone and expect smooth sailing.
Or network security to be worth a shit. This is why when a company hires H1-b , it essentially shows they stopped giving a shit about security, or they are idiots or both.
The best I ever got was zero notice (ie. termination on the day I was told), but I was given the two weeks worth of pay owed to up until then, plus I was kept on payroll for an additional month which they paid me immediately, plus $12,000 severance for a grand total of $30,000 in-hand. I walked out with a huge smile on my face and went to celebrate at the club that night.
The best bit was the following week I obtained a (slightly) higher paying job.
I've been considering it. I have a hard time believing the DoD will hire H1B companies for domestic security analysis, etc. The current administration has pledged, what, 10 billion in Cyber Security (lol)? Might as well try to find out how to get in on some of that action.
In the end you options are, they will say little or nothing other than that you were laid off and not fired for cause, or they will say you were insubordinate; thus preventing you from getting another job.
It'll probably go more like this:
"I'm calling about a former employee named DarkOx. Can you tell me anything about him?"
"He was employed here from $START_DATE to $END_DATE"
"I see. What's his rehire status?"
"No rehire."
"Thanks for your time, have a nice day."
[tosses resume in the trash]
Companies have gotten savvy to what they can and can't say nowadays so it's unlikely they'll tell you anything specific, but they'll still get the point across.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Ford recognised that if he paid his workers enough to buy his cars, they'd both be better off.
The companies offshoring their labour aren't selling into the Indian market (at least not primarily). They are selling into the much more lucrative US market. That market is lucrative, in part, because of the strong middle-class which, in turn, is supported by higher wages (to grossly over simplify).
The offshoring company is essentially exploiting _other_ companies who hire locally and hence have to pay a higher wage. They are the ones who are sustaining the market that the offshoring company wants to sell to, but isn't, themselves, prepared to sustain.
It takes a remarkably short-sighted view point as well as a nearly rabid 'profit above all else' attitude to see large scale offshoring as anything other than detrimental.
That largely depends on your contract if you agreed on severance regardless of your last month's work, they have to pay the severance they agreed to. If it's not in a contract or an employee manual they aren't required to pay your severance in any case whether you train them or not. I don't know if I would take the 3 months severance package if it gives me a 1 month jump start on finding another job. Within a month your local job pool will be +100 unemployed (and several hundreds more if a lot of businesses depend on you)
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
I'm done and disgusted with Feinstein. I don't care which powerful committees she is on anymore. She is against my interests. I will be voting republican for senators until she is out of office. Everyone knows how much I hate Trump... But if he were up against her I'd vote him in just to get rid of her. I don't really see a difference between Feinstein and the average Republican anymore.
You probably had grounds to force the payment of the severance anyway, in your case, as its a UK company and under British rules severance is not contingent on anything - the company makes you redundant and pays your severance, they cannot put strings on it. You would probably have had to file in a UK court, but thats not much of an issue.
That is why you don't hear of these horror stories of "I had to train my replacement" in the UK - we simply don't have to do that.
Sure you could.
Your next employer will see that in a background check and deny you employment! Will you take that risk? My exwife got hurt on the job and the workmans comp cliam was visible for years and it was frustrating. They legally will not say why other than we like you and let us do the background check then we will make an offer .... later nothing and no comment when calling back.
http://saveie6.com/
It's theft dipshit. That's the point. What kind of fucking moron tries to legally justify stealing, besides PopeFatso and AmiFaggo?
Wrong. Severance is agreed upon when you START a job. If it's not, then you need to have it added to your employment agreement before you begin working.
They often have to move things back in house after it dont work out all that well.
Usually they make your severance dependent upon it.
So don't ever put yourself in a position to need any severance.
Most companies will fight just on general principles,
In business, everything is a risk decision. If the risk is 50:50 that you might lose $1 in a lawsuit, then spending 20cents to prevent that is worthwhile endeavour. The decision purely comes down to risk and potential cost. If those are a lot higher than just paying a smaller amount to make it go away, it makes more sense to offer a settlement.
UK manufacturing has often packed up the factories (pretty much wholesale) and sent the factories off to Poland or somewhere cheaper. Then UK managers work in Poland for 6 months (or whatever) helping the local crews understand how to operate the machinery properly.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
It's an old Union trick, the go-slow. Do everything you are asked, but as slowly and as uselessly as possible. On paper you are doing your job, but it causes great frustration for the higher-ups who can't do anything about it.
Most places I've worked didn't give ANY severance...
I've not encountered a lot of that. At minimum, you'll give your two weeks notice (or whatever) and they'll say, "Fine, you can stop coming in as of now."
Breakfast served all day!
> The best part of writing it in Latin is they may summon a demon by accident...
That happened to me. The demon manifested in the form of a middle manager.
HR uses coded language to indicate what's going on. Consider this:
"You'll be lucky to get him to work for you."
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
"If you believe communism is a good thing, then you believe Trump will be bad for the US" is true in several different ways.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Also our companies for the most part aren't farming out work to cheap foreign labour
Well, there was the Royal Bank of Scotland collapse:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2...
https://ukcampaign4change.com/...
http://techinsurgent.com/post/...
If by "winning" you mean values of "winning" which actually ignore the voting intent of more than half of your constituents so that you completely miss the fact that you are losing then sure.
So don't just join the union for the money, join it for respect and in the knowledge that you have a common interest with many people who will post in reply to this story, but who would never join a union because they are 'special'.
So, what did you expect,... maybe help?... NOT!
> I don't know where the legalities would have lai[n]!
With whom is your employment contract?
There.
I did it. Best decision I ever made. Most people don't because they are cowards and have no self dignity. One of the reasons America is in self decline.
please
remember
to
use
paragraphs.
thank
you.
"But waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!"
I don't care.
The UK does do this, and probably would do even more if they had large IT companies like the US.
fuck knowledge transfers
I would and have walked away, my worth is my accumulated knowledge and abilities,
if you want me to do a job, I'll do it,
if you want someone else to do a job, they can do it,
never expect me to do someone else's work for them.
The sooner everyone stops passing on knowledge the harder it will be to get shafted.
The employer and contracting company will have the expense of running up a large number of new workers.
It could even blow up in their faces. The only thing companies understand is money.
Sounds like workers need to unite to have enough power to face up to the employers.
Sounds like union talk, well it's not.
Companies are well organised with industry groups which give them greater strength than they have as a single company.
Workers have been loosing ground for a few decades now, the middle class is in damage control. Personal debt is sky-rocketing.
Get Organised !
Go well
Them not understanding hasn't got anything to do with them being Indian, and everything to do with them being cheap.
Ultimately this is the problem with outsourcing - think about it, if you were an Indian, and capable would you earn a pittance in India, or move to somewhere high paying?
Depends on the company - any with a lawyer on retainer, a portion of that stack of 100s is already gone as far as the company is concerned.
The smaller the company the more likely it is you could win or they'll settle.
..isn't this just an almost inevitable consequence of Capitalism, Free Trade and Globalisation in the real world ?
The united front of Wall Street, the multi-nationals (including ALL the media outlets online and off, even including half of Fox News), the "Establishment" Republicans, and all the Democrats ALL aligned to prevent a populist revolt against globalism and cheap re-located labor in the US, did you REALLY expect any Democrat or establishment Republican to help you in ANY WAY on an issue like that????
They'll do literally ANYTHING at this point to stop the American version of BREXIT (on this case, a Trump win) and then never again need to face any pushback on unlimited outsourcing, insourcing, capital and tax shifting, information control, and spying on the citizenry. The only way you will EVER slow the H1-B abuses is this year with a Trump victory. Fail to stop it now, and the multinationals will not screw-up again; they'll push through laws to solve the problem in 2017 with Hillary in office and either the Democrats or the similarly-inclined establishment Republicans in congress.
Next up: Any moment now, Gloria Allred (infamous feminist lawyer) will surface (as she does in nearly every election cycle) with a press conference with one or more women alleging abuse by Trump - timed to do maximum damage to the campaign. You will be expected to forget how many times she has done this in the past and that the cases in question never materialize and the supposed victims always disappear right after the election. Remember all those women supposedly abused by Herman Cain? The one time Gloria pulled this on a female Republican she used a poor hispanic woman named "Nikki" alleging abuse as a nanny (the whole sex ploy was not workable in that election cycle. REMEMBER: NBC had the recently unloaded Trump tape for 11 YEARS and were doing business with him and renewing contracts with him for all those years. Don't let yourselves be manipulated yet again into supporting the globalists; as you have learned, most politicians actually have no intention of listening to you. Trump may not even be the solution, but he is currently the ONLY person you can support who is clearly despised by the team that wants to replace you and ignore you - and I think it is now firmly-established that he is NOT some right-wing religious nutjob (smile).
Ask yourself a simple question: After every Democrat, establishment Republicans, and most media spent all of the 1990s refusing to attack Teddy Kennedy and Bill Clinton for far worse, and after these same groups have made no issue of Bill Clinton on the campaign trail this year and potentially going back into the White House, and after NONE of them cared a bit about this with Trump even though they all heard him on Howard Stern for YEARS, why are they all suddenly outraged by Donald Trump NOW??? Think about it. TRILLIONS of dollars ore on the line in the fight over unlimited "free trade" and outsourcing and insourcing, and immigration. All the "never Trump" people (most of whom have always said "it's just about sex" when a liberal, including Trump in the past) are actually united on globalism.
I do believe he was referring to the spelling of "looses".
Before you try dispensing employment advice, I'd suggest you have experience at a few jobs first instead of relying on second-hand information from your "friends" (mommy and daddy). You might be qualified to speak about the subject in 20 years time, junior.
Practically no company will get involved in legal entanglements over such small amounts of money. They'll just pay off the former employee and move on.
I was told to train Indians everything I know. I told them NO. I will not and quit on the spot. If you train your replacement then you deserver to be out of a job. If everyone told them NO and then quit it would send a very loud message. But NO.... you want your month severance so you will damage everyone else with your greed. Just tell them No! I will not train my replacement and you can go to hell. Then QUIT! Management is slow but they will get the point very quickly when they have no one to fix the problems.
Those are some mighty tenuous excuses, SJW nutjob.
The only racist here is you for trying to make this about racism when it's about economy and nationalism. Now just shut the fuck up before you get slapped down like the instigating, crybaby bitch that you are.
Err no. A US company even if owned by a UK company, is still a US company and not subject to UK laws.
Ford recognised that if he paid his workers enough to buy his cars, they'd both be better off.
That's ancient Ford propaganda. He instead realized that he needed to pay more in order to end a huge turnover problem he had at his factories.
It takes a remarkably short-sighted view point as well as a nearly rabid 'profit above all else' attitude to see large scale offshoring as anything other than detrimental.
Or merely not live in the US.
Color me shocked! I can't believe someone with this attitude would type out something so full of grammar and spelling mistakes. Hey, next time do us all a favor and put Trump2016 Make America Great Again in all your subject lines so we can skip this "insightful" bullshit.
Our job is to make ourselves superfluos. Get over it.
We are programmers. Which means we tell a computer what to do and then it does it without any person required, including us.
By very definition we are the last in the line to replace humans.
What is heading towards us will make current issues seem like a piece of cake. There will be a massively rough transition into an all-out post-scarcity economy with probably a lot of ugly things happening inbetween. US HB1 visa issues aren't even close to what you should expect down the road.
A personal answer to this problem is twofold:
1.) Specialize,perhaps even to the extreme, and be ready to work/travel globally. There will always be someone who needs robotic programming in Python 3 for milling tools somewhere on the planet.
2.) Observe the development of society carefully and prepare for *massive* changes. That might even include prepping for some 1930s Great Depression type 'action'. Adjust your behaviour and your expectations according to what we all are observing in societies currently. The sub-Weimar-Republic tone in the US election and the Weimar Republic tendencies in Germany alone should be an indicator where we are headed - a total disintegration of core aspects of our current post-WW2 society. A litte perspective on that: My current GF lives in a big city in russia. I traveled there this year. It's basically a one-on-one all-out implementation of Neal Stephensons Snow Crash or William Gibsons Bridge Triology over there. With a dangerously deluded autocrat at the top. A real-life explosive Bladerunner / Strange Days mix.
Bottom line:
Meanwhile I'm enjoying a cushy job as a Consultant and Webdev at a neat agency in Germany. But I'm prepared for it to end immediately at any time.
I myself am actually prepared to move to another continent on comparatively short notice should shit hit the fan here in Europe.
You should be prepared to do the same thing where you are.
My 2 Eurocents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I don't think " weakened " is the proper word here.
They know if Her Majesty takes the position, the results will likely end with War because of both her past and current views on the World.
Everything that comes out of her mouth these days is the Russians fault. No matter what it is. No matter how trivial, the Russian boogeymen are behind it.
I would prefer NOT to have leadership whose decisions are influenced by Russian paranoia at every turn. Especially Ms. " I deserve this " who will want to ensure the History books remember her.
For VOLUNTARY severance.
If they wait and are told they're going to have to leave, then the severence is a bit higher. Not much, but a bit.
They're also actively letting go non-mgmt as well in various departments around the country.
The like to play the reorganization game about once / year.
What they don't get is if they would bother to make a decent offer, they would have to severely limit the numbers who took it because they would lose a huge chunk of their workforce.
I'm Eastern European (Czech), I keep up with the news, and I've never seen that, not even once.
I do hope Trump wins, because if Clinton is serious about what she says, she's a huge war hawk and wants to escalate tensions with Russia - no-fly zone over Syria, "retaliation" over DNC hacks based on extremely flimsy evidence... Given that my country is quite literally in the middle of Europe and in the former Soviet sphere of influence, you can probably see why I'd like to avoid that. I was very young when the Soviet occupation here ended but I l'm just fine with not experiencing another one as an adult because some crazy harpy threatened The Vladimir.
It's not modded "Funny" 'cause it's true!
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
If you think there's a difference in Team Red vs Team Blue besides token issues (guns/abortions) that they use to rabble-rouse their base, then you haven't been paying attention.
Nobody is going to ban abortions and nobody is going to ban guns. It's never going to happen, for the sole fact that it's used to energize their base for fundraising.
Neither "Team" gives a fuck about us because once they are elected, they aren't on the our payroll anymore, they get their bread from lobbyists.
Eh, see this is why I was thinking of adding something to my signature. I'm using the arguments against those who use them first. Ghoul made it racial, so I turned it on them. I could've also called them transphobic or sexist for assuming the OP was a man and using the masculine gender pronouns without first asking what their preferred gender pronouns.
I know...it saddens me that I know so much about this...
Most companies will fight just on general principles,
In business, everything is a risk decision.
Exactly. And the risk that some random individual will be able to summon enough resources to win a lawsuit against a phalanx of corporate lawyers who know all the tricks to delay, obfuscate, and harrass a litigant is very small.
While the risk that paying off the employee will encourage hundreds of others to do the same thing is high.
Betting "they will fold if you threaten a lawsuit" is a bet where your ante is high, and you can't count on winning on a bluff.
If the Clintons want to change the name of their charities, they couldn't be more honest by changing their name to the Ouroboros Foundation:
Honorary mention:
The Human Foundation: Money For People
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
You continue to vote for these same liberal twatwaffles, you get precisely what you deserve. If you cretins don't get the fact that the Democrats only give a flying fuck about themselves by now, you never will.
Good luck with that.
Pax Vobiscum
It's as if coercive authority sees the people as some sort of harvest-able crop
There... now your reaction can change from "wow really" to "no shit". All we needed to do was view government objectively rather than subjectively.
Careful not to drink the Hillary koolaid here.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
"Open borders"
[get over it]
--HRC
Asking reptiles for help is likely to get you eaten.
In the US, you can generally quit at any time. HR will say that you worked from date X to date Y, and resigned. Of course, severance benefits often depend on you not quitting, and it may be to your advantage to sit there and train your replacement. Just don't train your replacement anything actively harmful, and you should be legal.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
This single fact is so important but the whole MSM mostly ignores it and talks about sexual assault allegations ...
TPP will let large corporations import plumbers, mechanics, and yes, dentists. #awesome
Agree 100â...
I wrote Feinstein several times concerning positions and opinions she expressed. But because I don't live in her district, the auto-reply I received indicated that my opinion did not count. Bullshit. Her membership in Senate committees means that her opinions affects all Americans. She stands out near the top of 535 reasons why term limits on Congressional membership should be retroactively enacted. NOW.
I just had a quiet lady with a heavy Indian accent call me about our adobe accounts. I had no idea what she was saying. After her third question with a long awkward silence I had to just hang up. It was awful. Pretty much the only word I could understand was Adobe. She may have been trying to save us money possibly but nothing was worth that.
Our non-representatives used to at least determine whether our letters were pro or con something and send an appropriate automatic response. Now the response is the same no matter what you OR THEY think or wrote.
Not happy with her? You can do something about that. Vote her out. She's been in office way to long anyhow. She's way past her retirement. So is Boxer.
Technically Chinese employment laws would have applied. It's not like you coulda gone to the local cop and demand he fine your boss for working you more hours than an Aussie is supposed to work. In some countries the company will actually try to manipulate people into not going to the local employment authorities, but the only way to work in a country legally without gaining the legal protections of that country is be a government employee.
I suspect that there would be interesting legal wrangling over your precise status if you tried to use Australian employment cops. Advice for Brits seems to indicate there'd be lots of arguments over whether you were on temporary assignment or not.
Note that your company is never going to tell you any of this, because a) they tend not to know how to comply with foreign rules, and since b) neither do you, they're figuring that c) if the shit hits the fan and they have to fire your ass you won't know how to fight them.
Interesting, I would have assumed UK labour laws to be less employee friendly than those in Ireland*, yet my I know people in Ireland who've been expected to train outsourced replacements.
* I don't know why, maybe it's a "grass is greener" thing
Labor protections are one of those things that only really rich countries can afford. Poor countries that try to have great unions, strong labor protections, and economic growth tend to fail miserably at the last bit. See: India, China before Deng, left-wing bits of Latin America prior to the 90s, etc.
Ireland is relatively rich now, but as recently as the 80s it was one of Europe's poorest states. The way they got companies to build there, and create the wealth they currently enjoy, is by extreme corporate-friendly neo-liberal economic policies.
So I am not at all surprised that they have worse labor laws then the UK. I would be stunned if any aspect of Irish Law was less corp-friendly then British Law. They simply didn't have the negotiating leverage to keep anything from the corporate wish-list out of their statute books if they wanted them to invest there.
> The UK does do this, and probably would do even more if they had large IT companies like the US.
Ireland definitely has some large IT companies: Apple, Facebook, Google...
"I had to train my UK counterparts during that three months, or else not get severance."
Is it fair to rephrase this "they paid me enough that I agreed to do what they wanted"? It's not like you were under threat of violence.
Way back when, similar situation. MBA's are NOT being taught how to run startups. Just not even in their world. Clueless is an understatement. It's like they are being trained to put companies out of business. Not sure who is in charge of the curriculum, but they should be replaced, ASAP.
You're IMPORTING
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/
Casteism
I'm impressed with the fact that there are multiple angry responses to my original throwaway comment about the different jurisdictions involved, none of which acknowledge that the throwaway was about where the employer was, and all of which imply that it's somehow easy to tell which country has the right jurisdiction while simultaneously giving a slightly different answer to the others.
Slashdot Kruger-Dunning at its finest...
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
>>It takes a remarkably short-sighted view point as well as a >>nearly rabid 'profit above all else' attitude to see large scale >>offshoring as anything other than detrimental.
>>Or merely not live in the US.
Well, we DO love in the US. And we need our jobs and we can do it - obviously, if we are to train some overseas
Technically Chinese employment laws would have applied.
Not in terms of remuneration it wouldn't have. But yes overriding local laws can apply to expats in terms of things like hours worked.
It's not like you coulda gone to the local cop and demand he fine your boss for working you more hours than an Aussie is supposed to work
No but I could have gone to Fair Work Australia and demanded they get the company to compensate me for working more than my contracted hours.
I suspect that there would be interesting legal wrangling over your precise status if you tried to use Australian employment cops
For some ongoing working conditions maybe. For remuneration, not. You're a 100% employee of the place listed on the from line on your payslip. If you leave *those* are the laws that apply. On the advice for Brits page most of this would fall under "equally strong connection". But the point here is that it is British law that defines this, not the law of where you're working. While some countries may have laxer laws if you're based overseas that's still the law of the country where you are based.
The Democrats pushed a change in the law that made the primaries (which are supposed to be where party members pick their champions for the november general election) "open" so anybody can vote for any party - and the top 2 go to the november ballot. This November, the candidates on the Ballot are [a] a Democrat lady named Sanchez from the greater LA area who is all-in on open borders and unlimited immigration and [b] the Democrat lady named Harris who is currently the CA atty gen and is a huge supporter of open borders and unlimited immigration (oh, and prosecuting anybody who does not believe in man made climate change)
The Democrats are in charge (permanently, they presume), and you no longer get a choice.
That's not true. You should help everyone. I mean think of what would have happened if the Native Americans weren't helpful to early US settlers, so they could send communications back, and more settlers came to the point where they decisively outnumbers the original population.
We'll be so happy living on our unairable land, er. reservations in the future!
The problem with IT security: No one wants to pay for it, and no one will until the cost of having a security breach exceeds the cost of preventing it. Since the information lost is someone else's problem (your customers, not yours--or your companies, not yours (personally)) no one cares. The cost of 12 months of credit reports in miniscule even across hundreds of thousands of people.
This is only now beginning to happen in the DoD / Us Govt. The Slowest Thing on Earth. Guess how many breaches it took to make that happen? Now that same number will need to happen for each of the Fortune 500 companies (and only the ones with a business case--i.e. risk acceptance loss greater than the mitigation investment cost) before they take the hint. You have to convince the MBA's and CPA's, not the IT and peons...
For the litigant, a lawsuit is a losing game. Period. You read stories in the news about people winning lawsuits against corporations, but you also read stories in the news about people winning a hundred million dollars by buying a one dollar lottery ticket. The lottery ticket is a better bet.
For the lawyers it's lucrative.
Technically Chinese employment laws would have applied.
Not in terms of remuneration it wouldn't have. But yes overriding local laws can apply to expats in terms of things like hours worked.
Don't know what you're talking about.
If "renumeration" isn't subject to local laws for ex-pats GM would game the minimum wage system simply by shipping in a couple thousand Mexicans anywhere they had openings.
I suspect you're so high up you actually have a written contract, which specifies that Australian Labor law applies to you, and that your lawyer did not clearly explain to you that the law for you, my globe-trotting friend, is super-special. Couldn't have a fine, upper-middle-class, almost-certainly-Pom-Aussie treated like the Gulf Emirates treat Bengalis and Indonesians.
It's not like you coulda gone to the local cop and demand he fine your boss for working you more hours than an Aussie is supposed to work
No but I could have gone to Fair Work Australia and demanded they get the company to compensate me for working more than my contracted hours.
Yup. Seems like Fair Work Australia only deals with expat disputes involving Execs making $10k a month who have a specific kind of contract.
I suspect that there would be interesting legal wrangling over your precise status if you tried to use Australian employment cops
For some ongoing working conditions maybe. For remuneration, not. You're a 100% employee of the place listed on the from line on your payslip. If you leave *those* are the laws that apply. On the advice for Brits page most of this would fall under "equally strong connection". But the point here is that it is British law that defines this, not the law of where you're working. While some countries may have laxer laws if you're based overseas that's still the law of the country where you are based.
I've never made AU$123k a year, so I wouldn't know what that kind of paycheck looks like, but the ones I have actually seen do not have a "From" line.
Don't know what you're talking about.
If "renumeration" isn't subject to local laws for ex-pats GM would game the minimum wage system simply by shipping in a couple thousand Mexicans anywhere they had openings.
And they'd be able to providing they can get all their Mexican's over the immigration related hurdles that keep them out otherwise. That is a long and arduous process for specialist expats as it is (we got through this a lot where I work) and sometimes it can take months of proving that you're bringing in expats and not displacing local labour. This is something far easier to do with a H1B process than any existing laws.
I suspect you're so high up you actually have a written contract, which specifies that Australian Labor law applies to you, and that your lawyer did not clearly explain to you that the law for you, my globe-trotting friend, is super-special. Couldn't have a fine, upper-middle-class, almost-certainly-Pom-Aussie treated like the Gulf Emirates treat Bengalis and Indonesians.
You flatter me. But no. There are very real struggles to getting people expatted between countries. We have a dedicate HR team who handle just these people in each of the countries we work in, but the restriction is never to do with remuneration. That isn't to say that there aren't overriding local laws like restriction of work hours, but pay doesn't come into it.
Yup. Seems like Fair Work Australia only deals with expat disputes involving Execs making $10k a month who have a specific kind of contract.
You're right about this article, but this applies specifically to contractual negotiations that are an exception. That doesn't say the FWA doesn't get involved in contract negotiations below a certain price point, it just says for a certain type of executive expat contact this is dealt with by the courts. In case of illegal business practices (such as disputes over standard termination of service contracts which don't cover this golden parachute executive bullshit) they still may get involved. But even if they didn't there's one very key part in that article you quoted, to get resolution on your expat contract you go to common law court ... in your home country where the contract was laid out, so one way or the other it would be handled by the case in the home country.
I've never made AU$123k a year, so I wouldn't know what that kind of paycheck looks like, but the ones I have actually seen do not have a "From" line.
You and me both, but even when I was working for minimum wage at a Pizza Hut I still had Yum! Brands Australia written on the top of it.
Don't know what you're talking about.
If "renumeration" isn't subject to local laws for ex-pats GM would game the minimum wage system simply by shipping in a couple thousand Mexicans anywhere they had openings.
And they'd be able to providing they can get all their Mexican's over the immigration related hurdles that keep them out otherwise. That is a long and arduous process for specialist expats as it is (we got through this a lot where I work) and sometimes it can take months of proving that you're bringing in expats and not displacing local labour. This is something far easier to do with a H1B process than any existing laws.
I suspect you're so high up you actually have a written contract, which specifies that Australian Labor law applies to you, and that your lawyer did not clearly explain to you that the law for you, my globe-trotting friend, is super-special. Couldn't have a fine, upper-middle-class, almost-certainly-Pom-Aussie treated like the Gulf Emirates treat Bengalis and Indonesians.
You flatter me. But no. There are very real struggles to getting people expatted between countries. We have a dedicate HR team who handle just these people in each of the countries we work in, but the restriction is never to do with remuneration. That isn't to say that there aren't overriding local laws like restriction of work hours, but pay doesn't come into it.
I don't think you understand what I mean when I say I don't know what you mean by "renumeration"
I mean I don't know what you mean by renumeration. This not a term in the US so I can kinda sorta guess you mean pay, but in the US your employer covers numerous forms of insurance. Some of which are legally mandated, some of which are tax-advantaged, while others are just benefits.
The US labor cops, and I suspect most labor cops world-wide, would have nothing to say in any dispute that involved pay or any of the insurance packages I mentioned. US tax guys (the IRS) always get involved, but not the labor cops.
Yup. Seems like Fair Work Australia only deals with expat disputes involving Execs making $10k a month who have a specific kind of contract.
You're right about this article, but this applies specifically to contractual negotiations that are an exception. That doesn't say the FWA doesn't get involved in contract negotiations below a certain price point, it just says for a certain type of executive expat contact this is dealt with by the courts. In case of illegal business practices (such as disputes over standard termination of service contracts which don't cover this golden parachute executive bullshit) they still may get involved. But even if they didn't there's one very key part in that article you quoted, to get resolution on your expat contract you go to common law court ... in your home country where the contract was laid out, so one way or the other it would be handled by the case in the home country.
So what you're saying is that if you negotiate a contract that says Australian rules apply, then people who are Fair Work Australia will enforce the contract. On the one hand that may be true. It may be true that in Australia the employment cops enforce contracts. This is not an illogical way to set up your employment system, particularly if lots of your employees have written contracts
But not all countries are like that. In many contract law has almost nothing to do with employment protections, and in the US you would generally end up in completely separate Court systems if you were basing your claim on US Labor Law or a contract. Contract law is state level. It could be handled in Federal courts under certain circumstances, but a) they'd be applying state law and b) the employment cops I;m talking abo
That is why you don't hear of these horror stories of "I had to train my replacement" in the UK - we simply don't have to do that.
You literally posted this in reply to one of those 'horror stories' in the UK. We had to work our 4 weeks notice, which was spent training up Ukrainians to do our jobs. Sure I could have walked but then would have been in breach of my own notice period and not everyone is frankly rich enough to do that. I certainly wasn't.
Why would you then train him at all? You got your 4 weeks notice, go to work, throw them a manual and let them figure it out. If they complain, say "he doesn't understand me very well".
We were to build a series of similar projects with a turn around of about 5 months each. We built a framework as we went along keeping as much reusable as possible and knocked that time down to around 2 months. Company had a bad year and all the IT and software development was outsourced all over.
That said the guys who came in to replace us were pretty nice. I'm not the kinda guy to screw over others because some sociopath in management screwed me over. Just did the time and left and had to take a pay cut to jump fields (was a pretty specific field) but 3 years on I'm glad of it. If I had stayed it would have been a career dead end for me and things are pretty good now.
Sure it wasn't a great moment in my career but we all get to move on.
Why did you not sue? This is ILLEGAL.
No idea actually of the legality of it. This was in the UK and I had a 4 week notice period to work. They made us spend that training up some Ukranians to use the framework we had built for cranking out similar projects. Severance pay was negligable as I had only been there two years but I couldn't afford to just up and walk. Besides I would also have had to give them a 4 weeks notice period.