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Ask Slashdot: What Is the 'Special Appeal' of Apple Products?
Reader dryriver writes: As someone who comes from MS-DOS/Windows PCs background, I've never quite understood the appeal of Apple's products. I don't think Apple's products are terrible or anything, but I just fail to see what is so special and different about Apple's electronics that many Apple users would never dream of switching to a non-Apple product. Where does the 'special appeal' of Apple products reside? And why are Apple users so very loyal to Apple products, even though with Apple's pricing policy, you rarely get the best bang-for-the-buck in a product?
It was a boring afternoon. This should prove entertaining.
That's about it.
( ( - - - Fan boys here. Haters there - - - ) )
They are rectangular! And they have amazing rounded corners!
Exyremely eazy to use, and and outstanding choice of defaults. No, I'm not an Apple user. I use linux.
To name just one thing, I like to control when my computer updates. I don't want it updating in the middle of a presentation.
I have a 2011 MacBook Air that i use at home, and it works as well today as it did the day i got it. This thing has seen some shit, man...and every single component still works flawlessly.
I can't say that about *any* other computer that i've ever owned.
I can't speak for others, but the hardware has always been solid for me. I still have a working PowerPC laptop and one of the early Intel Macbooks (white plastic). They're still doing what I need them to do with little complaint. Also, it feels like fairly unified experience. The UI gets out of my way and things appear to work as they should. You could make the same argument for the PCs and Windows, but in the end it's a bunch of little things adding up to the big result of brand loyalty.
I would argue that most of it have come from the perceived ease of use for average users. Things generally work and work right the first time around without endless headaches. Couple that with less malware, viruses etc. that give the average windows users a huge headache and it's pretty clear. Frankly, Linux too could have the same effect if were developed holistically and focused on ease of use.
Not everyone is trying to optimize compute performance per $ or any othe sort of technical spec per $. Some of us just want to be happy with our phone and laptops and some of us can afford to pay more than rock bottom prices for them.
There's a lot of weird ego stuff in these discussions on all sides. But beyond that, try to understand that everyone isn't trying to optimize the same things.
I like that the products almost always "just work". That sounds trite, but after dealing with technology that doesn't work properly at work all day long (not Windows, but products under development) I don't want to have to mess with configuration or control of a computer at home.
That said when I want to do something outside the specified user experience I can usually find a way to do it without too much trouble.
I find frustrating to have family and friends ask me "Why can't I do ....?" I can usually figure it out if I am messing with the system (Windows I am talking about you), but it is hard to do over the phone. As often as not the final outcome is I modify what I am trying to do, or modify my expectations. I find that those who use Apple products are so used to being able to do stuff that "makes sense to them" that they are resistant to being told it doesn't work that way.
While it seems weird that is actually a way of saying that Apple gets it right most of the time. After all on Windows they are so used to not being able to do things the way that "makes sense to them" or "not at all".
bash shell
Unix dig versus windows nslookup
tcpdump versus some third party app
can install a native version of nmap and run it like nmap on unix
actual su and sudo commands
did I mention bash shell?
Admin functions work and are easily found unlike windows 10
Keychain Access app
Ok, /. editor (oh, well, that's why) consider this postable?
Why in the world would a
Besides, is the person who asked like 6 yrs old or something? Or just woke up after falling asleep in 1971 next to his IBM TTY connected to a DEC PDP-8L?
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
I used to buy PC laptops and desktops to run Linux and found I was always having issues unless I bought top spec equipment and even then for laptops the build quality was subpar unless you spent a lot of money so I would kill laptops each year with all the hard use and travel. I tried my first Mac back when the G4 iBook came out and that lasted 3x longer than any PC I had had and when I retired it, it went to my wife and continued to work for another 6 years in various uses. That's the thing, the Macs may not be the best bang for the buck but you get a well integrated and supported UNIX on hardware that is built to last so unless you're very cost sensitive at the time of purchase, the Mac will save money and be a better long term experience. Nothing to do with hipster this or shiny that, I'm a scientist working in genomics and the vast majority of my peers also use Macs. PCs running Linux are second most popular and Windows PC are a pathetic third place. We use Linux extensively for computing but for desktop and portable use a Mac is terrific.
"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
After a long day at work, either smashing my head against against the codeface down the Linux-mines, or being assaulted by a wide variety of sadistic corporate-grade Windows software, I get home tired and worn out.
I can put on the TV, sit on the sofa with my macbook, and not have that paranoid feeling that it's going to do something unpleasant and surprising. It won't interrupt me demanding to update, and then reboot my machine without saving 5 minutes later, despite me pressing the button that looked like it said "Don't do that". It won't shart itself because upstream decided to replace upstart with systemd during the last update, and now it won't load vital start up dependencies.
I don't want my home life to be as arduous as my work life. I have precious enough time to myself without having to fight my computer.
In my experience, it's the customer service. Apple has a couple of orders of magnitude better customer service than the rest. When I had a defective Samsung phone, my option was to go to the carrier store and hope they could help me. Usually they couldn't do so in any way that was convenient to me. When I first got an iPad, after a couple of months, a pixel died. I made an appointment at an Apple store and within 7 minutes of my arrival, I had a replacement device in my hands being restored from backup. Shortly after, I bought an iPhone as a result.
Additionally, most Android devices have a software update life cycle of maybe a year if you are lucky, compared to the 2-3 years that Apple will support their devices.
That's about it. Whereas there are lots of choices of window manager, user toolsets (editors, mail clients, etc) on linux/X11, I don't want choice. I want one thing that works well.
The more unix windows becomes, the more likely I'll be willing to switch - but it's still a very long way off. And in general I like the productivity apps on OSX better. It's rare for me to use my windows (game) machine without cursing how drivers work, the updates, etc.
I don't have Mac computers anymore. I do have an iPad.
I was a huge fan of the Mac. I still have a "Fat Mac" in my garage.
When they came out, I was intrigued. I wanted to see it, try it. Almost immediately I started getting shit about the IBM PC being better and how the Mac was a toy, etc. So pretty much I just got one to say Fuck You to those people.
It's been better than PCs, it's been worse than PCs. At this point, I own a 10 year old PC just because I wanted to play some PC games back then. Now, it is used merely for porn, web, email.
Computers are no longer these things that you get because they are special, expandable, supports this or that.
Computers are toasters. You turn them on, do what you need, then turn it off.
The only people caught up in this whole Mac vs PC shit are the manufacturers and Fan Boys. Everyone else just wants to be able to watch the latest celebrity sex tape.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
The Mac is good because you're not forced to update (unlike Windows).
The iPhone is good because you CAN update (unlike Android).
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Value is not bad but the price is just silly.
They appeal to creatives. In more distant history they had a reputation of graphics capabilities. For some time this has been irrelevant as most software used for the creative graphics, video and music process is available on non Apple systems as well. But the reputation is something I still hear people talking about today. I think in music Apple still has an advantage. It's why I bought my daughter a MacBook. Garageband seems to have no equal on Windows or Linux. She boots it into Windows for her favorite graphics app (PaintTool Sai) and Wacom tablet use though.
Also no company but Apple took design seriously until recent years. There are some sexy looking laptops from other companies now, but it's reactive to Apple. And many who made something that looked good left quality of build out of the conversation.
Technology at its face is complicated. Sure once you learn its intricacies it's not so hard to follow its ebb and flow. Jobs had his programmers obfuscate the underlying technology such that the average person could just go about using the device without knowing anything about how the device worked. So people use Apple products because it hides the "hard" stuff and lets you do the fun stuff. It's also the reason techs tend to dislike them. The obfuscation goes beyond hiding into locking down features that can be useful if you know what you're doing. With Jobs gone and his ideals within the company all but faded we are starting to see cracks. If Apple strays from the simple but complicated mantra too far they'll lose their audience.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
but when it comes to a phone that I'll probably break in 6 months I'd rather spend $150 (CDN) for a Samsung J1 than $700+ for a phone that will do the same thing and break just as easily.
Would I buy cheap Chinese car parts to save a few $$, hell no as that involves my safety and others on the road.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
A bit like owning a porche 911 or a corvette
Yeah, yeah... Feeding the troll...
Porsche is spelled with an s in it.
"porche" is just french for "porch".
The 911 is pretty much the best sports car on the planet that can still be used as a daily driver. Calling it a 'crap car' is just being petty, and probably jealous.
The Corvette is more hit and miss as a car, and it's no 911, but in terms of raw fun per dollar it's pretty hard to beat.
Ironically though you are probably right about the Apple. The *mystique* (here you actually do want the 'french' word. mystic is just wrong.) and bragging rights is a big part of the appeal. Apple is a cooler brand than Android or Samsung or LG etc... but Apple's brand strength is fading, IMO.
Yep, it's the best *nix laptop on the market. Helps me do my job. They also last forever, we just replaced my wife's old MBP last month, it was 8 years old!
At the time when laptops were made of plastic, had shitty screens, 2-3 hour battery life, shoehorning numpads on a cramped and badly arranged keyboard, at least 12 status LEDs blinding and distracting you as they blinked or changed state, came preloaded with crapware up the wazoo and recovery images without pure OS installs, terrible joystick/trackballs embedded in the keyboard, flimsy pop-out disc drives...
Of course I wanted a MacBook or MacBook Pro! These things were solid, powerful, had a long battery life, simple design but feature filled and did exactly what you needed.
No wonder everyone has cloned their design. Now I might buy a non-Apple laptop because others have the same design I like but also have removable batteries, and I don't care what OS it comes with because I just install Linux anyway, but Apple is still kind of the brain dead easy decision because I know there is a lot of support for Apple hardware if you like using Linux. With PC laptops it might be a crapshoot because there is more variation in chipsets and hardware support for your exact combination will be less likely.
Twinstiq, game news
i - Phoooooonnnnnnneeeeee
Requiem for the American Dream
Given the vertical integration, things generally just work, and at least on the Mac side, can work for a long time. I have several Macs that are 10~7 years old that are still going strong. Most PCs tend to last 3~4 years and then are replaced. There is reasonably tight integration among the iPhone, iPad and Mac, and the system feels stable as a whole (although when I first got my new 2016 MBP, it kept kernel panicking when I connected via Ethernet). The stability of Unix/BSD/Darwin, the similarity to Linux (used at work).
The iPhone simply had the better ecosystem; it blew away what Windows Phone/CE had, and is less confusing than Android (i.e. all the app stores), which also had a reputation to never be updated (due to vendor or service provider issues).
And don't get me started on the Windows update process! And the bastardized Windows 8 interface... it still isn't quite done in Windows 10.
Most devices simply work; less drivers and stuff one has to install (I know it's been getting better and better in Windows).
Windows machines from the big manufacturers have lots of bloatware on them. My son and I built a Windows gaming machine for him because we wanted to control exactly what was put on there.
Until the 2016 MBPs, my wife's MBA, my personal MBP and my work MBP all used a compatible power supply, so I could leave one in the family room, and one in the office, and we were always ready.
Yes, I'm pretty much locked in, and I ended up buying lots of dongles, but I get to share them with the wife. :)
With the exception of a few games (and some hardware vendor's utilities), I can do everything I want on a Mac that I need to do (and the games aren't all that important to me any more).
in my experience, Apple is the best for the new or inexperienced user, and once hooked, they spread the gospel to the quilting bee and beyond.
Whenever new MBPs come out I get the base 13" version, I'm on my 3rd or 4th. It fits my needs perfectly and I always know exactly what I'm getting and exactly how it works. I don't have to worry about hardware configuration, software configuration or anything. I just buy one, migrate my old one to my new one, then give my old one to my wife for personal use. Done and done.
I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
During Steve Jobs' era (2nd term) Apple mobile (iPod, iPhone, iPad) products had a great usability, amazing attention to detail, and clean aesthetic design. Steve pushed designers and developers beyond what was imagined, product had to work intuitively. That is why no one else was able to deliver a successful handheld (HP, PalmOS, etc). Unfortunately Apple diluted aesthetic and focus with multiple color versions and self-competing product lines (you can buy iPhone 7+, 7, 6+, 6s, se in 6 colors). On the other hand it always has been a club where you feel better b/c you have "luxury" (aka. higher priced item) than someone else.
YMMV:
* Command key instead of Control key means I can do my typical cut/copy/paste shortcuts, and still have "ctrl-c" for break in a Terminal window.
* Command key with thumb more ergonomic than ctrl key with pinky.
* Terminal.
* Real file system without 256 character path limits - I know ntfs has recently patched this one.
* Symlinks. I mean real symlinks.
* Touchpad gestures
* Unix based vs. unix added on (MS moving in the right direction now with bash)
As a software and systems guy, I always appreciated that I had support for Office, browsers, Flash, etc. while at the same time having a viable UNIX-like system to develop software from. The platform supports a lot of open-source software painlessly through the third-party brew system. Honestly, that's probably the biggest thing. In academia and industry (I worked in both), being able to cover that much ground on one laptop was worth the added cost, especially when the laptops were solid and lasted a long time, and the price included a lot of free software that isn't so free in Windows (I'm talking about you, Xcode, and you GarageBand, etc. etc.). Obviously, things change over time, and I switched to Macs back in 2007; nowadays, I cover a lot of ground quite well just using Ubuntu or Mint. When Windows came out with their Ubuntu sub-system I thought, oh I totally get why they're doing that. My boss was like, I don't see the point, and I laughed, well of course you don't, you don't actually do this stuff anymore! :)
At the time, there was also a lot of appeal for a system that 'just worked'. I mean, I switched back in 2007 and I showed my friends - it's got an ntp client - I don't even have to set the time! How cool is that? Now of course, Windows has that too. Things have changed. :) Would I ever change back? Well maybe, if the Windows Ubuntu thing becomes solid enough, and maybe if I found a good Windows laptop that was significantly cheaper than a MacBook.
As someone who comes from Kia/Hyundai background, I've never quite understood the appeal of Porsche's products. I don't think Porsche's products are terrible or anything, but I just fail to see what is so special and different about Porsche's cars that many Porsche users would never dream of switching to a non-Porsche product. Where does the 'special appeal' of Porsche products reside? And why are Porsche users so very loyal to Porsche products, even though with Porsche's pricing policy, you rarely get the best bang-for-the-buck in a product?
Let me start by saying that I hate Apple products. The only reason I have any is because I inherited them. But I do have to admit that FaceTime is way ahead of Microsoft's Skype or any of Google's many products. It just works. Seriously. My kids can use it easily to call me and it just works. I do not understand why, but the same just can't be said about other products, Skype in particular. No matter what whenever I try to video chat with someone via Skype, it takes a least half an hour for the other side to get it working, even my Mom who works on computers for a living. Half the time Skype will connect but the camera just won't work on one side or the other. Other times it just won't connect, or someone won't be visible, or the audio won't work, etc.
But FaceTime just works.
Just about everything else about iOS sucks, however,
Incipiamus, fratres, servire Domino Deo, quia hucusque vix vel parum in nullo profecimus.
I switched over with the Intel push, before that I was buying a new laptop every year. Between the Sony Vaio's that would overheat or just some crappy laptop construction it was getting to be a pain. I do recognize that this was just after the cpu frequency wars that didn't really help much.
I still have and use a 2012 MBP although my daily system is the last gen system since I see no use for the touchbar and for me 16G is getting tight, if I'm going to drop some serious money (to me at least) it will need to be 32G if not more.
So while they used to be solid, reliable systems that were nice to use they got all confused with what computer was and started down the path of making it like a big phone. Best example is the stupid full screen functionality. I'm on 3 monitors nothing needs to be full screen. In the old days full screen would size the window to the perfect size. now it's just huge.
I'm slowly and somewhat sadly moving to other systems. I'm not sad to be moving off of itunes which they could never really seem to make work and have given up on AppleTV now that Plex is working well. But they really dropped the ball on the hardware.
At work we buy MacBook Airs for people that need a take-home or checkout laptop. They're all metal and pretty rugged. We have ones with bent edges from being dropped on concrete and they're still working. We've never had one physically broken. They're also a lot less likely to get viruses and spyware. Some of that is just because our users don't know how to use them as well so they aren't downloading BS onto them.
Microsoft has always been the company of "just barely good enough"; while Apple (under Jobs) always focused on what would make something Great; MacOS/NextSTEP/OSX all had strong design focus with ease of use and being intuitive.
You'll notice that there's a ton of courses on "How to use Windows", "How to use Office/Word/Excel/Powerpoint/etc"...but there are very few on "How to use a Mac". You just don't need them.
Microsoft always focused on the Corporate Customer - Corporate IT; Apple focused on the end-user.
It's just natural that people would remain more loyal when they're generally treated well. Now that's not to say that Apple hasn't had issues with customer support in the past (they have); but they certainly focus more on the everyday user.
That said - while I like MacOS/OSX in general, I can't stand the keyboard, shortcuts, etc - enough that I put Linux on the Macs that get assigned to me. But I don't use Windows either if I can ever help it.
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
You pay more, but:
1) All equiptment is designed for the apple computer, not randomly put together with whatever is cheapest that month. Everything is designed to work together, as they know ahead of time what other gear will be installed.
2) You get the apple OS, that used to have no viruses and even now has much fewer issues with unauthorized take over.
3) Also, you get the brand, which for some people is enough. Remember the whole "PC is for business, but apple is cool" mystique? People still believe it.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Let's take the following example:
In 2013 I bought my wife an iPhone 5s. It still gets updates and patches and works decently with the current OS. I am currently upgrading her to an iPhone 7, the old iPhone still fetches a decent price. Migration to the new phone is painless.
I own mostly Apple gear. I've used/owned PC equipment (IBM, DEC, HP, Dell) but I averaged less than 2 years on each PC before something major needed to be replaced or upgraded in order to use the device on the most recent Windows version. Generally, most PC's are built to a low price point so the upgradeability is not all there. They are truly the 'toasters' of computing.
My current MacBook Pro's are over 6 years' old and neither are close to retirement. I added RAM and upgraded the disks, and I can still run not only the latest MacOS, but under Parallels - I can run various flavors of Windows and *NIX as needed. My iPhone and iPad work seamlessly as well. I am only replacing my iPhone (a 5) because the screen is getting too small for me to see well at my advanced age. My original iPad was replaced since I couldn't upgrade the IOS anymore. As Apple's old tagline used to say, "It just works". Do they cost more? Yep - but the investment for me has been well worth it since I use Apple devices longer than their competitors' devices. Even my Mac Plus lasted seven years, until I couldn't load the latest System and any useful applications.
I think, therefore I am - Rene Descartes; I yam what I yam, an' that's what I yam - Popeye
Back in semi-modern age OS X had color calibration in an OS wide fashion I think. Or maybe not?
Maybe they have been more attractive for DTP tasks at one time too. I don't know why but in more modern days I know some font-renders try to show what looks good on screens with subpixels whereas some try to show the font with the shape it's supposed to be and maybe that could influence some peoples decisions. Also once upon a time some software was exclusively for Apple. Apple have also bought companies/products which existed on both platforms and made them Apple exclusive, is Final Cut Pro such a product? Also back in the days of "AltiVec" Photoshop filters ran faster on macs. I also read some day that they tested the machines more than what was done with PCs so maybe less of a chance the machine was broken? Though.. How likely is that in the first place?
So back in the days exclusive software, maybe performance occasionally, possibly easier color calibration, possibly better font-rendering?
Nowadays for the computers I don't know. They used to look a bit slicker and maybe was more innovative but at the price premium they charged (compare vs a more plastic fatter Dell consumer machine), but nowadays with Apple almost abandoning the PC .. I mean computer for their gadgets .. well. Nothing of interest there I suppose.
So for PCs nowadays? Nothing. Unless you want a "UNIX" OS with Photoshop and games. Then again Steam has brought 2000+ games to Linux and Photoshop likely runs in WINE if you want it.. Sure there's a few more professional titles and I don't know whatever they run in WINE or not but.
As for the gadgets the on paper hardware specs may seem lower but judging by benchmarks they keep up well with the competition so I don't know if there really is a reason not to buy one either .. Just another competing product. Better? Worse? Different.
Surely that's the point. To avoid explicitly coming out?
One shot for the haters :D
Over to you fanboi x.
Requiem for the American Dream
I switched to a Mac once Apple had OS X and Intel in place. As a long time Unix/Linux user it gives me a stable, secure environment with all of the tools I am used to and productive with..out of the box. I gave up on Windows OSes in the late 90's and switched to Linux for my laptop. In 2006 when Apple introduced Intel base OS X switching to it freed me from constantly rolling my own drivers and let me focus on using the box rather than tweaking it.
From a hardware POV I will say, my 2009 MBP is still fully functional (although stuck on El Capitan) and running great. Its been through 4-5 OS upgrades without a wipe and reload and runs great. I've never, ever had (or heard of) a windows notebook that was upgraded from OS to OS and remained fully functional and usable for that long.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But then I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain
Okay, I'll give it a shot. Quick answer, it's not really the products at all, though they look and work great. It's the ownership experience that makes people love the products.
I was a diehard Thinkpad owner for many years, and felt the same way. Made the switch to a Mac in 2009, and the best way I can characterize the difference is this: a different and overall superior ownership experience.
Speaking to Mac OS, reinstalling the OS or upgrading new to versions is fast and free. It also needs to be done very rarely. Fundamentally the machines just work. They absolutely do cost more initially than comparably spec'ed PCs, but have substantially higher resale value. They can also be used for many years without significant issues. We still use a 2009 iMac daily. It's a bit slow, but it works just fine.
Understood that you could make the same argument for a Windows PC regarding longevity--without question-- but take into account the pain of upgrading the OS, tracking down drivers from the company you bought the PC from, working with a variety of vendors when components break, and it's very different. With an imac, if at any point you have a problem with a machine that you can't resolve, you can get an appointment, bring it in to a store within a day or two and get it resolved. It may cost you some money, but it's an option that's readily available. Compare that to making numerous phone calls to Dell or HP and then shipping off a system. It's a big difference.
I also use iPhones. Here the difference versus my experience with Android is something similar. While many may find it frustrating that iOS isn't as customizable, the flip side of that is that core functionality on the iPhone nearly always works 100%. I went through several Android phones, culminating in a Samsung Galaxy S4, that despite my best efforts to continue to update the OS when possible and solve various problems, just flat out didn't work properly most of the time. Simple tasks like sending text messages and photos via SMS didn't work reliably. Photos would repeatedly just never send. Phone calls worked fine. The UI wasn't great. Here again, ownership experience. I have a problem with a Samsung Android phone, how do I resolve it easily? Phone calls? Trips to the AT&T store? With the iPhone anytime you have a problem simply take it into a store and they can help you sort it out. Understood that Android has come leaps and bounds since I last used it. I'm sure the experience on them is much better at this point. But the ownership point remains.
A few recent examples here. First my wife was having serious issues with the battery on her phone. Some of the iPhone models had a known battery issue that they were replacing phones for. We made an appointment, dropped by the store, and within 45 minutes were provided a brand new phone as a replacement. That was good. Another time we had a broken screen. Our fault. Here it was $120 to fix, but after repairing the screen the device still wasn't passing diagnostic checks properly, so again they gave us a new phone (we still had to pay the $120). In both cases we were able to resolve an issue to our satisfaction and get back to our lives easily.
So that's how I would boil it down. There really isn't much that you can point to and say something like, Apple products are better. They really aren't, unless you argue that build quality and design matter tremendously. Especially with the macs, the hardware inside is basically the same. With the phones the hardware is different but the capabilities are similar.
It may sound like a cop out, but that's it. The stuff is more expensive but you get a superior ownership experience with it. It's built to last, and when you do have problems, they are generally resolved easily and to satisfaction. That creates a love for the brand and the affection people have for their new devices.
Like when the iPhone Plus first came out. It wasn't 'Wow I can get a 5.5 inch screen on a phone!' that got people excited. Plenty of phones were already available at the time with a big screen. It was the fact that you could now get a great product and ownership experience on a 5.5" screen iPhone that got people excited.
I use Linux as my main platform, and Android as my main phone. I use macOS at work and have an iPad for a tablet. If I hear "Windows" I'm running away and shooting everything that might be following me.
Ain't nobody got time to fuck around with the computer when there's so much work to do - and when there's no work, there's Netflix to watch.
macOS is my second option after Linux because it's UNIX-based. I'm a Terminal guy, and I use bash a lot. cmd is too limited, PowerShell is too crazy, and the backslash as a path separator drives me insane, especially when used in pretty much any language and some library author forgot to add escaping. If I want to do some server stuff then not even macOS cuts it (I need iptables man...)
What about Android vs iOS? Well... I started with Android and had my fun while rooting it didn't break things (now I can't because I use Android Pay) and I can always get a decent last year's Android phone for cheap when I "upgrade". I got my iPad because I needed it for a contract once. I use it for ITS LONG BATTERY LIFE! I have an Android tablet too, but unless I leave it in standby and never use it I have to charge it long before the day ends.
If anything, I love the smoothness of the iPad experience and hate the jitteriness of Android. Especially the homescreen needs some optimisations - it gets slower and less responsive as you add icons to it? dafuq is that about? and it seems to drag the whole phone experience down with it - all apps take longer to spawn; but hey, at least the stupid SMS app they had was replaced eventually - it was also snail slow, so there's hope yet.
"Everybody's naked underneath" -- The Doctor
This is a great, great post. Applause
Welcome to fone mart...
Requiem for the American Dream
I think if you substitute Porsche for Mac, PC, BeanieBabies, whatever... only conclusion are like celebrities for their fans which is emotional (i.e. I'm a Connie Francis fan but lots of luck for me trying to provide an objective explanation). I have both Mac and PC, one works good for some things, the other for other things. It can also be someone is quite familiar with all the esoteric commands and structure. Kind of like some ham radio people only go with one brand (Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, whatever) because they are already use to the menu structure.
mfwright@batnet.com
For this crowd, yes the stability is great. For non-techies, the allure is all the great software that is available (such as for audio production) as well as for artists the great visual displays (photographers, videographers, etc). Still others because it's simpler to operate..
Some of these are out of date, and most are laptop only, but my list:
-Magnetic power adapter. Maybe I'm rougher on them than your average user, but 3 of the 4 laptops I owned from 1999-2009 all died because of the AC jack failing/coming unsoldered/etc. To the point where I had to hold the plug at certain angles to maintain charge.
-OS X was the polished Unix OS I'd been looking for after 10 years of dabbling with Linux but it always being unwieldy/unsupported enough to keep me on Windows
-Laptop Touchpad + gestures. In 2009 there was no comparison, I'm not sure how far PC laptops come along in this regard since then, or how much is locked behind BS Apple patents.
-Laptop Build Quality. My MacBook Air in 2009 was an amazing revelation after years of plastic PC laptops that all creaked if you held them by the corner. My perception is that the PC manufacuters have caught up here and you can get all metal cases unless you buy super bargain basement.
-This was always avoidable on PC, but Apple didn't force crapware down your throat on a new laptop purchase.
So why is the Apple Distortion Field cracking for me?:
-They got rid of the magsafe power adapters
-They got rid of ports than I need (HDMI, SD Card, traditional USB, Headphone fucking jack) in the name of going all USB-C. I would have been fine with phasing the USC-C ports in with at least a single traditional USB port for backwards compatibility.
-Price
-Gluing/soldering in components like RAM/SSD. That should be outlawed in the same way that a non-standard shaped gas tank connector which forced you to always go to Exxon stations is.
-Focus on cloud shit that I don't want, or focus on locking down/iOSifying shit that I don't want. I'm for the most part OK with locked down defaults so long as I can go into System Preferences and tell it 'I'm an adult'
On the flip side, the rich crazies are flat out gibbering batshit insane. No checks on their behavior, nobody to tell them 'no'.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I will consider my parenting to be a success if my kids never end up thinking like this.
I had a 2006 black MacBook (yes, I paid an $200 for the black version) that ran flawlessly for many years. The CPU fan and battery died in 2012. I took my vintage laptop into the Apple Store, got replacement parts, and, because the tech wasn't careful putting the keyboard top back in, got a new keyboard top. The CPU fan died in 2014 and I let it be, as too many software packages I used were dropping 32-bit support after Apple did the same. I bought an inexpensive Dell laptop to replace it, as my data was in vendor-neutral formats. Still looking for a worthy successor to my MacBook from Apple.
That's pretty much why I like and use Apple products. I have used three laptops in the past 14 years: a high-end HP laptop, a mid-range from Lenovo, and the MacBook Air. HP's laptop worked fine for two years, but things started to get messy after that. Opening more than half a dozen tabs on Chrome would turn the laptop into a room-heater. Ubuntu never really worked with issues on that laptop. Lenovo's laptop worked fine for four years, but it started to run into same issues after a point. I have been using the MacBook Air (2013) for last three and a half years and I have had zero issues with it. It just works every single time. I would like to give something else a try as soon as this device dies. Windows 10 and Ubuntu run better on Paralles (a VM) on the MacBook Air than any laptop I have tried them on.
It took me less than three days to feel home on OS X (now macOS). Coming from Ubuntu and Windows, things were a lot different, but my impression OS X is just a dumbed down version of Windows in terms of complications. Everything is in right front of you. While I see no use of Siri that they introduced last year, and all the bells and whistles around PiP, and things like having two windows placed side-by-side, working on OS X has never made me feel frustrated. Again, for the things I need a laptop for, the MacBook Air has continued to deliver, so I have no reason to look elsewhere.
The 911 is pretty much the best sports car on the planet that can still be used as a daily driver
You misspelled Nissan GT-R.
I buy my kid Apple because they help her fit in with the kinds of folks I want her associating with. Having an iPhone with iMessage lets her network with other kids. Moreover those kids are at least well enough off to afford an iPhone (well, their parents are). I know there's lots and lots of exceptions, but as screwed up as it is to say this they're still exceptions. It's not about snobbery, it's about keeping her away from crazies. They girls with $100 pre-paid cells and $300 celeron laptops are just plain more likely to have issues.
If there's one and only one thing I've learned in life it's you need to learn to spot and keep crazies out of your life. And one (rather nasty) way to do that is to use money as a gatekeeper. This goes for everything. Where you life, what you drive, what schools you go to. The mentally ill have a hard time being stable long enough to afford nice things.
Wealthy people do not have mental illnesses? Citation please!
Take this sig and smoke it.
People who don't use Macs love to compare tech specs. People who do use Apple's computers tend to compare their overall experience, which includes software, support, and aesthetics and many other human factors.
I'm sure the notion that Macintosh offers *MORE* bang for your buck seems absurd to tech spec oriented folks. But indeed millions of people do indeed buy Macs, iPhones and Apple's other products, because they feel a better product is worth spending a little more.
PJRC: Electronic Projects, 8051 Microcontroller Tools
If we are doing car analogies, I would say that Apple products are an automatic. You pay a premium for an auto transmission and sacrifice control. Additionally, replacement of these premium parts are expensive. They do, however, make life easier for the person who wants to mindlessly drive.
[Rent This Space]
Mainly I like the OS. I like the GUI more than what Windows and Linux has to offer. I like the UNIX underpinnings.
I like that I can (almost) seamlessly integrate a Mac workstation into a Linux environment with shared scripts and file system paths.
I like the focus on lightness and size for my laptops while still giving me more than enough performance when I'm on the road. I travel alot.. every half pound helps when I'm on the road.
I like how it handles quicktime media (a standard in the visual effects industry) better than Linux or Windows.
I like how well (though not perfectly) integrated the various devices and services are.
I like the company's attention to environmental and human issues -- they're no even in the same universe as perfect but I don't see anyone else doing better for my money.
Personally I love the new keyboard on the Macbook Pro and I don't miss the physical function keys.. the touchbar is really great. Though I would have preferred that there was a haptic feedback like on the touchpad.
I like not being abandoned by a carrier or phone manufacturer for OS and security updates.
All around, for my needs and my money, they're just better. Not for everyone obviously.. but there's nothing that they're currently doing or not doing that would cause me to switch at this point. One day maybe.. but I would be giving up quite alot.
The 911 is pretty much the best sports car on the planet that can still be used as a daily driver
You misspelled Nissan GT-R.
This is the equivalent of arguing over page 4 vs page 5 of a Victoria Secret lingerie catalog. You both are right, both cars are works of art.
I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
Interesting view point. Question though, didn't the guy who shot up San Bernardino (sp?) use an iPhone? Wasn't it a big hoopla with law enforcement to get Apple to unlock the phone?
There is a strong market for used Apple products at reduced costs. I don't buy Apple but I do always buy my cell phone a generation or two behind the latest because I'd rather pay $100 instead of $400+.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
From my point of view, it's a few things ;)
1) They make genuinely nice bits of kit. whatever you think of the internals, repairability, OS etc. the hardware itself is generally thought of as attractive, good quality, great screens, the best trackpads in the business, nice use of aluminium for a lovely chassis that seems to last for ages. their stuff is slim, and for all that geeks complain, people like things that are slim and light. also people like using nice equipment, and apple stuff is nice. I tend to be in the camp of thinking that it's not that apple make expensive hardware, it's that they don't make cheap hardware, if you can appreciate the difference? though the prices on the 2016 MacBook Pro did make me blink a bit
2) macOS is pretty good. although it's a fairly normal (though I feel attractive) take on a WIMP interface, it's unix (TM) underneath and you can pull up a terminal window and mess about with sed and awk if you like. OS updates tend to work well and have usually not resulted in an older machine running like a dog (not always, but usually). most applications are usually fairly self contained and are installed by dragging their icon onto your directory structure somewhere, and deleted by simply dragging it to the trash.
3) iOS hardware is damn good. Their CPU's are very fast and efficient, the handsets feel premium. They pioneered not letting carriers mess about with the OS and when a new OS comes out, you either get access to it immediately, or your device is obsolete. no waiting for your carrier or vendor to produce a firmware update for you.
4) iOS software looks nice, and generally is smooth and nice. I think that (and this applies to apple in many different areas), if you're happy to work as apple expects you to work, then things go pretty well. and lots of people are happy to work that way. If you prefer to do your own thing, and make products work around you, then apple is going to be frustrating.
5) iOS has a great security model. not claiming it's perfect, but it's pretty good. default strong crypto, an easy to use fingerprint sensor on all their current devices. permissions to phone data sources (locations, contacts, photo's mic, etc) is determined on a per-app basis during use (not at install) and you can say no, and you can change your mind. If your password is decent then it's very difficult to get data out of an iOS device.
6) macOS has a fairly decent security model. very few listening processes, standard users have no access to system directories, sudo for admin priv's, requiring registered developers ID's for software before allowing for install (in default config), etc. I'm not one to say that the Mac has no malware, but almost all Mac malware is what I'd call a trojan, rather than a virus. Mostly it has to trick the user into giving it root so it can be evil, rather than just infecting you without your say so. This may not last for ever, but at the moment that's generally true.
7) "it just works". okay, so that's not always the case. Apple devices have their foibles like windows does, but mac's work as expected often enough for it to become a cliche. They've got enough applications in enough sectors to please most people. Microsoft office support, Apple's own numbers, and pages are surprisingly good.
8) Apple are fairly open that they sell hardware, and that the software exists to sell hardware. This means that they're not trying to advertise to you, or monetise your every action. They seem to have a good stance on defending privacy and having the balls to tell government's to go away when they feel it's appropriate. They're doing what seems to be their best to design hardware that they can't break into, even against the wishes of some big interests.
9) as they sell the hardware and the software, everything tends to integrate well together. The Apple Store is a nice place to be, usually busy, but I don't think the staff don't earn commission so there's little pressure to buy.
10) like with many OS's, there's an ecosystem. You don't
Better marketing and a product that is convincingly of good quality. I say convincingly because it's all about perception.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Well interestingly - no, you don't. The automatic PDK-equipped Porches are faster than the manuals. You think you've lost power by losing the ability to fiddle all the time, but actually you've really gained it and can just get on with the job.
The analogy is damned near perfect in fact.
Sold my Apple ][ -- miss it terribly. Still have my ancient Newton Messagepads and 15 year old TiBook. My main squeeze is a 10 year old iMac and my newest is a 5 year old 17" MBP. What makes them special?
One of the Newtons gives me trouble, the others all work like new. Never a problem through many software updates and peripheral devices. Rock solid reliable. Never a virus either.
When a newbie asks me what to buy, I reply with a question: What is your time worth? You can save $200+ buying a generic PC clone; or you can buy a Mac and save 200+ hours of your life debugging and fussing and not getting the results you want. Which is the bargain?
...omphaloskepsis often...
I started on Mac's in 1986, and refused to develop for anything else for years except for a brief curiosity fling on Windows in the late 90's.
There were hiccups: when the beautifully engineered early machines gave way to the "cheaper to fix than test" iMacs; a list of failed attempts to drive the future, like OpenDoc (dodged that one) and QuickDraw3D (burned a little.) I never objected to the price, because they really were that much better in those days.
Then OSX schlumpfed onto the stage and disappointed me where it hurt: horrendously slow, awkward to use, and an all-around marketing inspired product. The speed and polish got better, but it was never fun and now it's mostly lobotomized to look like an iPhone and most of the engineering is for "lifestyle" crapware. I even liked Objective-C, I just hated the platform that used it. iPhones? Okay I guess, not especially good and too much trouble and money. iPads? Never thought of a use for one.
By 2010 or so I stopped buying Apple. XP was better, Win7 is much better, and both are much cheaper. And I don't like giving money to shady organizations like the new Apple. I still have an Intel MBP that mostly runs Win7, and a few older machines (G3, G4 tower) that are fun to fire up once in a while.
I've been a Mac user for a really long time. I've owned a lot of them over the years. And a lot of PCs.
I used to support Windows and Linux machines (servers/desktops) in various capacities at various employers. (Federal and state government and corporate.)
I really enjoyed having a machine that worked consistently every time I turned it on. (or now, when I wake it from sleep. I reboot so rarely these days). Predominantly, the only time my Macs exhibited strange behavior was when they had hardware issues.
It wasn't like Windows 95 which would refuse to acknowledge some random accessory because a change had been made to the registry by some other app. I never had to worry about some $.30 interface chip crashing the machine because the vendor had cut corners writing the driver software and I bumped into a crash situation trying to do an every day task, like printing. Or plugging in a USB device.
Or Windows 98 which was a slightly more stable house of cards.
Or Windows XP which was a breeding ground for viruses and system compromises no matter how securely you locked the system down. I remember when you would race to install Service Pack 3 on Windows XP before the IP scanners would compromise the machine. Never had to worry about that on the Mac.
I've never had to deal with Microsoft's wavering tendencies to see how invasive their software could be on your machine. Yes, I'm looking at you, Internet Explorers 4 through 7. And you too, Active Desktop.
And before you hold Linux up as the shining jewel of computing perfection, I have two words for you: dependency hell.
Side note: My personal uptime record is on a Linux file server. 253 days without a reboot. A nice Dell box with a SCSI RAID array. Supporting a 200 user design department the entire time (server hosted home directories and a few other services, not just a file server.) Stayed up just a hair longer than the school year. Then I decided to perform a package update. It took 3 days to get the machine back to its former state.
My Macs have always "just worked" more often than most PCS. Yes, they've had their problems. I ran a lab of them in a student environment for years. Many of them worked perfectly fine in a fairly abusive situation. And yes, there were a few machines with problems. There was one Mac G4 that had all of it's internal components replaced twice. The only original part was the external case, and it still never ran 100%. But even at 90%, it was more consistently reliable than most of the Dell's in the lab across the hall.
A week ago, I finished an 11 day Deep Dream render on my MacBook Pro. (No NVidia card, so CPU only). I continued to use the machine for my daily tasks while that render ground on. It never hitched, I never had a problem. Even though it was eating up CPU resources like crazy. Heck, I even let it go to sleep a few times and accidentally let my battery run to zero after forgetting to plug it back in. And when I woke it up/restored it from suspend, everything continued on as though nothing had gone wrong.
Yes, Apple, Macs and the OS have their flaws. But they're consistent flaws. Yet they still offer the one thing I've struggled to find in the Windows or Linux worlds: A user experience I can trust.
Reeses
As a long-time Unix nerd, I love that OS/X has bash and all of the standard command-line tools that I've grown used to, and that they're actually supported and built in to the system. I could always sort of fake it with Cygwin on Windows, but that always felt like a square peg in a round hole. For decades, I'd buy a PC, pay for Windows (which I didn't want), and install Linux just so I'd have the tools I needed, but the downside was that nothing was supported on Linux - and sometimes you really _do_ need to read a word document or open an Excel spreadsheet. The other thing is that I honestly do trust Apple as a manufacturer. I know their shit is more expensive than any of the PC manufacturers, but I've been screwed over so many times by Sony, Dell, Acer, Toshiba and HP that I'm more than happy to pay more because I know the machine will actually behave as it's speced. And, of course, once you have a Mac, you might as well just bite the bullet and get an iPad, and iPhone, an iPod, an apple watch....
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
Tapping an icon, is tapping icon. It doesn't matter whether it's iOS or Android. The settings are where the only real major usability differences are. On iPhone, within a version, the settings are going to be the same for all devices. Even between versions, the changes aren't usually that drastic. I'm an Android user, and more than capable of handling the differences between version and manufacturer. I, generally, know what I'm doing. But when I help someone over the phone, I'll hope they have an iPhone.
Computing devices are inherently capable of doing a wide variety of things for people, and many designers set them up with a design philosophy embodied by the sentence "You are probably different from me. What you want to do with this device will probably be different from what I want to do with it, so I'll try not to impose my view so much and make it capable of doing many different things." But, that means that you have to think about how you want the device to behave, and set that up. And then, there's an OS change and you have to think about these sorts of things again.
To me, Apple's design philosophy seems to be more along the lines of: "You are probably like me. What you're going to want to do with this device is the same sort of thing I want to do, and you'll want to do it in the manner that I find to be convenient and intuitive." Then, they put a lot of effort into refining their concept of this user everyone probably wants (or is at least willing) to be and refining their equipment so that it works perfectly for this user. This "design for one user" philosophy also allows them to derive synergetic benefit from vertical integration that is unavailable to manufacturers who are of the other design philosophy.
You just summarized why I finally stopped buying MBPs. Last one was 2012, and since then I just haven't been able to justify a new one. This latest MBP crop made it clear that Apple is going full steam in a direction that I'm not interested in going.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
Rich people can't afford to pay for crazy relatives' iphones, but wealthy people can. I've seen plenty of people from "rich" households flounder in their mid-20s and finally flop in their 30s as their families can't afford to support them anymore. Wealthy families just throw money at their problems to make them go away (or more likely, minimize them).
Plenty of rich/wealthy people have problems, and they probably seem more disproportionately large than the general population because there's enough money to prop them up as functional members of society (except for the periodic breakdown, and then bailout)
moox. for a new generation.
I get asked this a lot. For the Mac, it's pretty simple for me:
Windows: Has a decent/cohesive UI but a crap OS underneath
Linux: Has a great OS (unix) underneath but a crap UI (C'mon admit it, it sucks and is not cohesive)
Mac: Has a good/cohesive UI and a great OS (unix) underneath. Best of both worlds.
For Apple products in general.
1. Stuff just works. Got my first iPhone, plugged it into my Mac, Sync'd it with iTunes. 30 seconds later my phone "pinged" that I had new mail. Everything was there.
2. It's much more than the device itself. My mom has a Mac and needed help with various things. Made a genius bar appointment and they helped he with everything and didn't make her feel like an idiot. "How do I move things from my flash drive to my Mac?" "Oh, here let me show you."
Also, believe it or I think they (most times) have a good sense of the way things should be.
In the beginning, Android users would say how stupid it was to have this "walled garden" as they can install from anywhere. Ends up that installing from anywhere is might not be such a great thing.
Then they said how stupid it was that there was only one version of iOS and many flavors of Android. Ends up that fragmentation is not such a great thing.
I say use what works for you. Working on a Mac with a trackpad and using spaces fits how I work very well. If I need to write some documentation, I use MS Word.
To each his (or her) own.
If you want an open machine that allows a great deal of user control and options, go with a PC. If you want a machine which gives you less control, but also less hassles, go with an Apple. Because Apple tightly controls the software and the hardware, and today is UNIX based, weird timings and compatibility issues rarely exist. They often use standard hardware today, but may modify the ROM of a hard drive to insure it is optimally tuned to work with the particular drive controller it's connected to. Dell and HP do this on a higher level to insure compatibility and reliability, but have to allow for more OS options, thus increasing the complexity, and possibility of failure. Apples are more expensive because a great deal of engineering and quality control goes into them. You can build your own more powerful PC for less, but unless you do a great deal of research and understand very low level timings and settings, you're more likely to have some strange glitch or failure that seems completely inexplicable. The same is true with OSX vs Windows or Linux...the latter two allow for more options, but as a result often do many things, but less of them quite as well as a system tuned for those specific purposes. You also have a lot of contingency code you will probably never need or use, which is also true, but less so, with OSX. The appeal from a user perspective is that an Apple is generally less hassle to own and use if you only need it to do a few specific things very well. This is why they are generally preferred by professional video and audio editing and production. It's also a highly polished and engineered product. I like to create on an Apple. I like to play games on a PC.
lol
Requiem for the American Dream
"what is so special and different about Apple's electronics that many Apple users would never dream of switching to a non-Apple product."
Asking "what makes them so special you would use them in the first place" is a very different question than "what makes them so special you would never switch away." Many - though by no means all, or even a majority of - Apple users stay with Apple out of pure momentum; Apple does a very good job of both a) making it very easy to upgrade from one Apple product to the next and take your stuff with you, and b) making it very hard to get your stuff out again if you do choose to leave the brand.
This is textbook begging the question. To ask a question like this, you have to establish that some special appeal exists, because it is by no means established.
For starters, the claim that Apple products are overpriced is controversial. They tend to not make a low end product, true, but this is regularly debated whenever Apple comes up. Simply stating it as a premise without justification is presupposing an answer.
Second, there are many die hard users for almost every tech brand. They all benefit from tribalism. For every user you describe committed to Apple, there are certainly similar ones for Sony, Microsoft, and even Samsung. Maybe there is no special appeal, maybe this is just a normal phenomenon among tech products, and the speaker is just fixated on Apple and its users.
Further, what does "special appeal?" even mean? If it's put in quotes, it had better have some specific definition. Who are we quoting here? Is better marketing a special appeal? Is more reliability a special appeal? Is a self-contained ecosystem a special appeal? Are brain chips implanted by the Illuminati at the request of Tim Cook a special appeal?
I recently sucked up my pride and bought my first iPhone. Why? Motorola stopped updating my Moto G after less than two years. I considered buying their new model, but they seem reluctant to commit to even quarterly updates, and I doubt they will update for more than two years. I considered a Google Pixel, but they were sold out, and it's unclear how long Google will commit to maintaining a monthly patch schedule for any given model of phone. I also purchased my first Apple laptop a few years back, mostly to run products from DEVONtechnologies (which are Mac-only). I've been happy with it, but can't say it's turned me into a loyalist. Am I comfortable with all aspects of Apple's computing philosophy? Definitely not. But, they make good quality, reliable products and take security and privacy very seriously. Given the competition, they've earned my money.
I could have never thought of it. Insightful perspective. Thanks for sharing.
As someone that switched from PCs to the Mac in the early 90s, then from the Mac to Windows 98, and the back to the Mac for 10.4, I think I can offer some insight.
First off, it's important to consider that the advantages and disadvantages vary over time. In most cases, historically, I switched back to the Mac just before 10.5 came out, and I can tell you that 10.5 made the contemporary Windows XP look like crap - and XP was great! 10.5 was just better. It was faster in general use, faster to boot, faster to switch users, had much better security (like it actually had some), Time Machine was nothing short of phenomenal, and Safari was easily the best browser available.
And around that time, the hardware was incomparable as well. TiBooks ate anything on the market in practically any measurement. The cheese grater Mac Pro is still so great people would rather have them than the new model.
Now? Not so much. macOS is fine, but the delta between it and Win10 is much thinner. The things I see now are much more limited. Chrome fixed the browser issue, but I still can't find a good mail client (the new version of Outlook, ugh, it never works right!). Performance is now on-par, and booting speed even better than the Mac. My Mac still gives me much less problems in terms of changing stuff, and I still don't have a single malware after 10 years hanging out on the 'net and downloading everything.
The current iMacs are still great, but its not alone, and on the laptop side the delta has closed a LOT. And Apple's insistence on thinner keyboards has made them craptastic. But many of those deltas that closed are only because Apple opened them - the MacBook Air remains a great machine, and it was years before anyone had something really comparable. But now they do.
Finally, "convergence". I have an iPhone and the way things magically move from the phone to the Mac to the web is great. I suspect the same is true on the PC/Android side, but I don't know because I don't have Android. Still, once you get used to it its great - like handing off a call from my phone to the computer when I'm at my desk at home.
Exactly. Those rich kids are the ones with drug problems too. The poor kids can't afford it.
at a distance mostly.
Apple products take the thinking out of computing.
Most of the reality TV watching, dub-step listening, Pokemon playing public doesn't want to have to think for themselves. Apple has created a product that allows these sorts of people to buy products that work well and will allow them to do what the want to do, almost to the level of the experts in some cases, without having to fully engage their brains.
I know that's a dark and insulting way to look at it, but that's what I've seen. It's not always a bad thing, but sometimes it is.
When older -pre-data aged people use Apple products I think it's a wonderful thing. My own family for instance - I'm from an area that was low revenue (that's changed in the past decade) and isolated from urban life. Yeah, I grew up in the middle of a desert. Even though I grew up in the 80's and 90's it's more like the late sixties to early eighties on most people's calendars when they compare the reality I had to urban areas. Many people where I'm from were technology hostile until the 2000's, including my parents. This isn't a slight against my parents or those around me, it's just a cultural notation. The iPhone has allowed my mother to carry a smart phone and use it proficiently despite not having any sort of computer experience until her late 40's, early 50's.
The Mac has similar appeal.
For older generations I absolutely think Apple is awesome - it's like computers with training wheels. That being said I am a sometimes Mac user - I use a Mac as my main system at work. It's a solid system, I've started having a few issues with it lately, it's a Mid 2011 27" iMac, I think the HDD I put in here runs a bit too hot for it and it's locked up on occasion since doing that - rarely, and the fan runs a lot, and it needs to. Overall I can't complain - it's a good solid UNIX workstation that easy to user for both user level GUI stuff with the UNIX command line for real serious work (BTW iTerm 2 is awesome for my type).
Unfortunately there's a dark-side to this equation.
The younger people who use Apple products for trendy reasons are handicapping themselves.
See that part about growing up in the desert - a bit out of time? That's the best thing that ever happened to me professionally. My first computer was an IBM PC Convertible 2 - a really cool laptop. It ran a custom 8088 processor. I got it used about the first model Pentiums came out.
When the rest of the world was rockin' Windows - 95 was just around the corner, I had a dual floppy 8088. I had to learn to use a computer, the hard way, with a book and keyboard on IBM DOS 5.
I started my career when computers needed jumpers set for everything, CPU voltages, base clocks, multiplies, serial port addresses, interrupts, etc...
Even as technology improved and you didn't have to know the old skills I found knowing them helped. For instance Plug and Play took the jumpers away, but for a long time I found it wasn't smart about assigning IRQ's and that I could greatly improve the performance of a system by making sure as much of the hardware as I could spread out to different IRQ's instead of having everything on one like Intel chipsets had a bad habit of doing automatically.
It is rare that a modern Apple user will ever know anything more than "find the cable with a plug that fits in that hold and the other end fits in that hole over there". Apple has abused the different connector situation BTW. Even my advanced Mac people are trapped in an Apple tar pit which they understand little beyond, nor do they care to.
One of my previous jobs included doing I.T. work at power plants. During the 90's they automated a lot of the work at most power plants and were able to lay off up to 75% of their staff. Power plants basically run themselves. Now they're running into a problem. See, all they kept were the guys who were experienced and good at what they did. The problem is those inexperienced guys are the ones who learn from the go
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
The 911 is pretty much the best sports car on the planet that can still be used as a daily driver
You misspelled Nissan GT-R.
You got the R right, except it's spelt AMG GT-R
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
The 911 is pretty much the best sports car on the planet that can still be used as a daily driver
You misspelled Nissan GT-R.
This is the equivalent of arguing over page 4 vs page 5 of a Victoria Secret lingerie catalog. You both are right, both cars are works of art.
Nah, the one on page 5 has got fat ankles. Page 4, however...
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
I like making things and I have an appreciation for Artisans. Bread, coffee, hand made stuff from wood, pottery etc.
What I see in Apple is a company that's taken the Artisan approach to details and aesthetics in their products and delivered it on a massive scale.
If we hadn't had Apple and Jobs we'd still be buying IT equipment encased in ugly cheap plastics with the focus on MHz/Ghz and other meaningless numbers.
Contextual menus are potentially the fastest task, because they appear right under the cursor (small distance). And both Windows and Mac OS handle those okay.
But the second fastest tasks are the corners of the screen - they may be far from the cursor (particularly if the cursor is near one corner and going to the opposite diagonal), but the target size is infinite. Throw the mouse towards a corner and you'll eventually land there. Mac OS uses those corners, and has, ever since OS v.1. It's very easy to click on the Apple menu, for example.
Third fastest are the edges. They may be similarly far from the cursor as edges, but they're not quite infinite in size - go too far to the left or right, say, and you miss a menu at the top of the screen. But you can't possibly go too far up. Or click on something in the dock - left or right, you may miss, but you can't miss by going too far down. And this is something Windows has always screwed up. Taskbar Items have a bottom edge, so rather than being an infinite size downwards, they are only 15 pixels in height. Suddenly, rather than being one of the fastest items to click, they're one of the slowest - potentially far from the cursor, and with a tiny target.
Similarly, the menu bar... All Mac programs have their menus at the top of the screen, extending infinitely "up". They are the third fastest things to get to. Windows programs have their menus... in a tiny slice at the top of a window somewhere in the middle of the screen. And because they depend on the position of the window, not only are they small, and far from the cursor, they're in a different physical position for every window! You can't even use muscle memory to hit the menu!
So, that's part of the special appeal. The Mac UI is consistent and optimized for speed. The Windows UI is inconsistent and appears to be reverse-optimized, selecting the slowest possible design choices.
I see what you did there.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
It took a couple CRAP android phones before realizing just how fragmented and wild west the android market was. You have to pay a large premium to get a phone with just stock android on it, and even them security updates are more miss than hit. My wife's iphone has been trouble free, and there was no hand wringing about how the manufacturer might have added in their own crappy malware laden junk apps on top of the OS. So less choice, but fewer worries, and more of a guaranteed experience. It does seem like quality of software has waned for Apple these days, I've had to google simple crap like how to shuffle songs since they mangled the music interface badly to make way for their streaming crap.
I won't get into the PC/Mac side, Apple has seemingly all but raised the white flag for their Mac's. $250B in the bank and they can't update them except on the leap years. A decent mini-tower with current hardware and only a fair Apple tax might entice me to take another look, but that is verboten at Apple it seems.
The best example was the iPod. It was a music player for songs you already owned in digital format. It was sleek, simple looking and curved. It didn't have frills like most other music players for things like FM Radio. It didn't have buttons for every useful function. Just one button and one overly complex wheel. The interface was too complex for my grandmother, and many other people to remember how to use. One of her daughters ended up buying her a Zen which she could use with no training at all. That was Apple products though minimalistic physical interaction and features with a complex, usually pretty, interface that you will do things the way Apple wants you to do them philosophy
They kind of got away from that with the iPhone. It still serves its primary function as a music player really well, still doesn't have the most intuitive interface, but adds low quality phone capabilities and bad quality internet browsing to the mix. iOS Safari is the worst browser in the world to try to properly support.
As for those people that say they are high quality laptops, we have a number as work and anyone that tries to use them in a portable faction usually only gets 2-3 years out of them. Even the one I have from 2013 has hardware problems, but apparently they are from design defects, not wear and tear. Though even in the past I've found the build quality questionable at best. They do look pretty.
Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon what's the difference? All steal money from devs and control with walled gardens.
Trump didn't wheel & deal his way out of bankruptcy. His bankruptcy attorney's told him what to do and he did it. There's an interview with one of his bankrupcy accountants talking about it that surfaced during the campaign.
Rich Crazies get reigned in by their families who don't want them blowing through the fortune. Most of the rich aren't crazy. What they're doing is perfectly rational and perfectly awful. Kinda like that Mark Twain quote but in reverse.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Okay, I'll bite. Comapred to DOS/Windows, the "special" appeal is a UNIX-based OS at the core and pretty graphics. Solid, quality hardware. Beyond that, though...really nothing. They are incredibly overpriced, locked down, and treat their customers like idiots. Apple is famous for assuming its users aren't smart enough to handle more than one giant mouse button. This mentality permeates all of their products. Worse, they are terribly proprietary, and Apple hates following standards. They would rather "innovate" by choosing proprietary solutions to lock-in their customers, again showing them a lack of respect.
Once you experience the joy of switching to an all open-source lifestyle, there's no way you can go back to that crap.
and you're kids will naturally avoid crazies or it's being done for you by living in a really nice neighborhood. That's something nobody thinks about or talks about. I'm just given a voice to the very real class divides that exist in America. It's bound to make everybody uncomfortable since we preach equality while setting up systems like these to enforce class. I've had more than one British friend comment that American is much more socially stratified than the UK...
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
I use Apple products because they feel "right", they fit in with the way I work and the way I think.
.
Windows to me just grates, its "wrong".
Its like giving a right handed golfer a set of left handed clubs, sure with practice they will be able to hit a ball, but they will NEVER be as fluid as they are with a right handed set.
If you are left handed, you know about how rubbish most right handed stuff feels, but if you have left handed golf clubs to you it feels "right" for you, natural
And thats computers for you, you end up using what works best for YOU. No one else uses my computer (or my golf clubs), so how anyone else feels about the hardware/OS/software (to me) is completely irrelevant , go buy your own and be happy and if you aren't buy something else.
And THAT is why the war over OS's will never be won, because no one else actually cares what YOU use, they will continue to use what THEY like.
As someone who comes from MS-DOS/Windows PCs background, I've never quite understood the appeal of Apple's products.
I have an Apple II/C64/Mac/DOS/Windows/Linux background, both as user and developer. The advantage of Macs today are:
- Reliability. With all the parts coming from the original vendor compatibility and drivers are not much of an issue. This also translates into security. Personally I have few problems on the PC since but I build my own from carefully chosen high quality parts. A more typical budget crapware laden retail PC is more troublesome. Most problems I've seen on the Windows side are due to 3rd party software, not Microsoft, especially drivers. Less 3rd party under macOS.
- Compatibility. I can dual boot in macOS or Windows. Yes emulators are nice but for games and some development work a native OS is better.
- Desktop Unix. Some tasks are better done under *nix. I've been using Linux since '94. However macOS provides a perfectly good *nix environment and Linux is pretty much relegated to headless boxes in a closet somewhere these days. The macOS GUI and macOS apps are simply better than their Linux counterparts.
In summary, a quality reliable box with native macOS, MS Windows and Unix environments.
Historically MacOS was superior to Windows through 3.x. Win9x was close enough but still inferior. Windows NT was where Windows became superior, it was inexcusable for Apple to take so long to get something like MacOS X.
This is a great flamebait post, but there are honestly echoes of things that go through my head as a parent... so I can't flame you but, I have to comment. ;)
First, yeah, I don't want my kids hanging around crazy or bad kids. Yes, I admit, I'm starting to notice the money thing in my town... more obviously crazy poor people ratio. But at least in my local neighborhood, all the middle class (including lower middle class/working class) kids my kids hang out with are what I'd call good kids.
Second, there are just as many good poor people as there are good well-off people. But since there are so many more poor people in the US (world, whatever), the ratio of problems at home/life issues is very likely worse with poor people. Well, at least poor people IN THE CITY. I grew up in the country, and I would say the ratio of no problem to problem kids was about the same regardless of socioeconomic status.
Third, protect your kids from your biased adult thoughts. I don't want to make my kids assume wealthy people are somehow better by default. It absolutely is NOT true. Out of all the very wealthy people I know, every single one of them has family issues. Most have it so bad, siblings don't talk because there was a war over who got the family business. Some are such that the parent who started the family business is so controlling, they dictate everything their kids do even as adults... where they live, who they marry, etc. Lots of problems and strife for the next generation when you have lots of money. Just a different kind of crazy/evil.
I work in a multi-language environment. My Win7 instance does NOT even use the selected language consistently. Plus to use a different language involves installation of the language pack for every application.
The interface language for Apple products have been rock solid, can even switch the language on the fly. Occasionally need to log out and log in again, no reboot required.
I'm a guy who hated Apple products, and then for my development job I was doing iPhone apps, so I basically was forced into one. I can honestly say I don't hate it. Some criticisms I have:
- Arrow keys way too small
- Touch pad gets in the way, I find it very easy to press Siri instead of delete which gets very annoying. I want for a physical ESC and function keys.
- I find the all or nothing approach to maximizing a window frustrating. Some times I just want a window to be the size of a desktop without it being in a separate workspace.
- Finder can be frustrating. Views are not consistent in the way they select files, and icons can appear off screen and will stay there. I have not been able to find files until I realized I needed to scroll to the left.
- I have not been able to get used to having a single menu at the top. It just seems to make more sense to put it with the window it controls. It is a pain to have to go to the desktop to get to the finder menu.
- Can't run windows applications unless shelling out a bundle for vmware.
- Some features that should 'just work' require utilities. For example, I had to install a separate utility to associate some links in the browser to the appropriate app.
- It nags me to upgrade all the time, just like Windows 10.
- XCode is awful for developing.
- iPhone is painfully bloated. There aren't many options for an application that will just play some MP3s. I don't necessarily go to a shopping mall when I just want a pencil.
- Dongles.. the USB-C thing. I do like the USB-C connector and I get that it is better, but it was a bit too soon. I have been stuck without dongles.
- Battery life isn't as good as they say.
- Sometimes the simplicity gets in the way. For example I was shuffling between a couple working directories for my iPhone app and I was in Xcode, it would not show me what directory my file was in. It's almost like OSX feels that people are offended by absolute paths.
- Keys are too flat. It is unbelievable how important it is to feel if your fingers are in the middle of the keys if you are a touch typer.
That said, it is the nicest laptop that I have ever had and I tell people this. I also tell them that I would hope it would be the nicest laptop I have ever had, because it costs three times as much as any other laptop I have ever had. I have no had to repair it for anything yet, I'm a little nervous about how that will go especially after my Apple care runs out. I have mostly gotten used to the keyboard, despite my issues with it. I can run a couple VMs and sliding between workspaces works well with them running.
Ultimately, I probably wouldn't have considered this laptop a good value if I had paid for it and I'm glad I didn't need to purchase it myself. It feels very sturdy, but a drop to a tile floor would bend it, whereas my Thinkpad bounced three times and had not a chip.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I was starting a new gig back in 2012 and one of the conditions of me working there, they gave me a mac and told me I couldn't install Linux on it. After that point in my life, I never looked at a PC system the same. OSX has a simple elegance about it that just can't be replicated. Updates are not forced down my throat, I have all the normal linux tools available and I trust it more than I ever trusted a microsoft system. Yes, the hardware is expensive and it holds it's resale value better than any normal PC while lasting double, triple the time.
Since converting to the cult of the mac, I haven't bought my own apple products. Work gives me a new mbp every few years and I use that for everything. I install my own OS, firewall and security software. I manage my device, not my employer.
Both a pro and a con, macs are able to install / reinstall OSX from the internet. My employer would like to manage my device so to get around it, had to do a offline installation of OSX and remove the hook that calls out to be managed.
Bah, sports cars don't have back seats. Those are all GT cars.
Apple aren't perfect - their current hardware line up leaves much to be desired, which lead to me recently having a fling with a MS Surface Book: I wanted to mess with the tablet/stylus idea for a project I'm working on, plus the Surface range seemed like the closest thing to a windows "reference platform" that should showcase WIn10 at its best. The Surface Book failed within the 30 day "easy returns" period - now, other people have had good experiences with the SB so I'm not going to knock it on that basis, but there were other more fundamental reasons why I bailed and got my money back rather than accept the offer of a new replacement machine.
I'd also note that I've used DOS, Windows and Linux, MacOS and various others on and off since forever (ISTR there must have been at least one occasion when I used WIndows, MacOS ('classic' and X), Linux, RiscOS and VMS. Windows 95/NT5/2000/XP was my daily driver from about 1996-2006 before I switched to Mac, and I've always had a Win7 VM on my Mac for testing websites and stuff. What I'm saying is: this is not "eek, the keys are a bit different" - I can cope with things being "a bit different", I already mostly know how to use Windows (I've developed for Windows, whereas everything I've written on the Mac has been crossplatform) and I'd been getting real work done on the Surface before it failed.
Mac advantage 1: Mac OS and Mac OS apps are, typically, just nicer: they're responsive (click the mouse and, generally, there's an instant response - even if its only an hourglass you know you've clicked something). On windows, frequently, there was no sign of anything happening for a second or so. Apps tend to be consistent and designed with more "attention to detail" than you see on Windows.
Examples: Apple Mail is not the best Mail client by a long chalk and receives much abuse, but select part of a message and hit reply and you get a new message with just that text quoted. How else should it work? I now know where all those silly huge chain emails come from - because that's what Win10 mail and Outlook force you to do. Someone on the 'To' line ought to be on 'CC' instead? Just drag them - the App recognises each address as a discrete object. On Windows, carefully select the email address by hand, copy & paste, being careful not to mess up the separating commas. Outlook 2016 is feature-rich but usability poor - not even properly integrated into the Win 10 notification or calendar system and I had to install a third party plug-in to stop it quitting (and hence stopping checking for new mail) every time I closed the window. Outlook wouldn't talk to my Google calendar or address list (and Outlook 2016 still doesn't do Google 2-factor login). Win10 Mail/Calendar/Contacts did a bit better - and knows about Google - but its feature-restricted (failed me when I needed to drag a message from my Google account to an Exchange folder) plus it has a horrible, space-inefficient design that assumes you're going to run it full-screen.
That's one example. There are, of course, lousy Mac OS apps, too, but generally they adhere to a much higher standard of 'thoughtful touches' than Windows.
As for Mac vs. Linux - Linux rules for server-side, but when it comes to GUI everything nasty you can say about Windows' responsiveness and attention to detail applies to Linux with two scoops of ice-cream and a cherry on the top. Linux GUI's design brief is "give us a horribly over-engineered windowing system, make it networkable but so clunky that VNC is a better solution for remote access, add a desktop manager that looks like - but doesn't work like - NeXTStep because I'm a Unix hacker and as long as I can run 6 copies of vim and 6 bash shells side-by-side I'll be in hog heaven." Or at least, that was the situation until Gnome 3 and Unity came along - which was like being rescued from the Titanic by the Marie Celeste.
Mac advantage 2: Win10 is still a ghastly hybrid of Windows 7 and The UI Formally Known as Metro. It didn'
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
kawaii in the streets, eunichs in the sheets.
I have yet to find a linux distro/DE that actually goes head to head. Budgie is nice, Elementary is okay, neither are quite there, and you still have to put up with standard linux-on-desktop hassle.
When it comes to the Apple products as a whole there is a misconception that they are better. More stable is what i hear a lot. It simply isn't true. Relatives with iPhones are seeing them just shut off as of late. 5s and 6s in my family - I assume related to the recent file system changes. Requires holding home and power for 20 seconds to get it to boot. Brother took his to apple store and they reinstalled the OS... no word yet if it fixed it.
My wife can crash a mac sure as she can crash a windows machine. I have an MBA - bought it for weight. Battery life is excellent, but Finder is a wreck. And yes, it gives me the spinning beach ball of death too.
So there is a misconception that Macs "just work", but in reality they have problems too. This is the denial syndrome... my Mac can't be like windows.
But if we focus deeper - phones and ipads are the same no matter how they are customized. User's can't change icons. they can't create widgets. There are limited ways to send an SMS or open the settings page. The lack of choice makes it easy to use. The same is true for the Mac, although it is more customizable. Compare to an Android phone - no icons on the launcher screen, widgets galore, alternate launchers. Choices are endless. And it can be confusing.
I have Moto phones - I can't always tell a Samsung user how to do something. But if my mom has an iPhone issue, I can open up my iPad and walk her through problem solving.
I prefer Windows and Android. Apple products do work, but you have to be willing to limit your choices, and don't have unrealistic expectations. they have bugs too.
I think apple users prefer to overlook the issues (denial) and they like the sameness of it all (conformity)
What you have described is called progress, nothing more.
When I started with computers (TRS-80 Model 1) you could get the service manuals and fix them yourself (40 pin DIP desolder, easy). Now with BGA/PGA and sub millimetre pin pitch you need a lot better equipment and skills. Hell writing code in Assembler was easy compared to today.
TVs, well you had to know how to tune them because the tuning drifted, then there was the vertical hold to adjust now and again too. Now they self tune.
Thats what modernisation and commoditisation do. Its not just computers, its HAM radios, Cars, Radio controlled aircraft, etc etc etc etc.
BMW is a better car analogy. Porches are nice little sports cars but BMWs are amazing everyday drivers. They're perhaps the only daily driver built completely with the driver in mind—the way the shift, handle, the engine harmonics, the cabin design. Everything is tweaked for an optimal driving experience.
When I bought my BMW my wife was skeptical. She didn't want me to get it because she didn't want people to think we're snobby. It only took one ride for her to realize there's a reason people get attached to them. Sure, there are lots of people who drive BMWs because it's fashionable and they want to be seen in an expensive car. But the reason most BMW owners consistently buy BMWs is because almost everyone has to drive a lot. When spend a lot of your time doing something you want to enjoy it.
Guys who like to work on cars don't like BMWs. A mechanic looks underneath and wonders, "Why the hell are there two control arms and a giant ass trailing arm on the rear end? Changing those bushings would be a nightmare." An engineer looks underneath and thinks, "Damn that's the most symmetrical undercarriage I've ever seen."
Macs aren't designed for those who tinker under the hood. They're not designed for cheapskates who value money more than experience. They're designed for those who want to do work (or whatever) on their computer rather than work on their computer.
"From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
what anyone thinks of me for it.
I distrusted Jobs from the NeXT era onwards, and now that he's been sainted the taint will never go away.
I don't want Apple in my life and I don't need it either. So fuck off.
1 -- It's Unix under the hood. I'm a Unix hacker, and it's nice to be able to write programs easily.
2 -- A nicer GUI than any other system. It looks much nicer and is much more intuitive than any Windows version, or any Unix I used.
3 -- Device drivers just work. The OS seems to always have the right drivers for the system I have, and they work without a need to constantly tweak them every release.
4 -- No virus infections so far. Back when my kids had Windows systems, they were constantly getting viruses. None of my Macbooks have ever gotten infected, in a total of 30 or so person years of using Macbooks. I asked someone who *works for Microsoft* how they handled the constant virus infections, and he said they just reimage their systems every week. At that point, I vowed never to give MSFT another dollar of my money. I failed, due to the need to have Office, but I certainly won't buy Windows.
Those are the biggies.
Such as this one right here on /.
My only relationaship with Apple is owning a MacBook Pro, on which I run Windows. The hardware "nicety" beats any other brand I know. It is a combination of features, robust case design, and that nothing is wrong with it. E.g., in my last non-Apple notebook I had to drill holes to prevent it from overheating when laying on a bed, I had to clean dust from the fans every few months, the fans were noisy, and its plastic case cracked in multiple places after years of use. I do hate however when Macs break, as repair is more difficult. This does not outweigh the benefits. I could not care less about the "bang for the buck" thing. The notebook is my main work tool. Any notebook I want is affordable within my budgets. Our other scientifuc equipment is way more expensive. Looking at colleagues around conferences, I observe more than 50% agree wth this view. Last few years I see Apple logos lining up in rows.
If any company designs a notebook package that matches Apple, I will switch (especially if it has a 17 inch screen of the same quality as current MacBooks). It's nothing about Apple, it's about the convenience of use.
Any brand I have looked at last few years had some bullshit or limitation that MacBooks just don't have.
17779 eligible voters in a district, 17779 'vote' as one. This is Russia.
Macs run on a unix system. Obviously Ms bollocks can not cut that.
I realyl wonder why we have this threat ...
Pros use tools that suit their job. Windows doesn't.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
As the IT guy for my family, I've insisted they all use apple products. Below I mostly rever to macOS and PC, but the same arguments apply to iOS and android. Here's my reasoning:
1) Less issues per hour. In my experience, for non-power users, macs are more reliable than PCs.
2) Less time to resolution. The types of issues macs have typically take me 10-30 minutes to solve over the phone. Probably 90% of windows problems can be solved with nothing more than a reboot, but when that doesn't work it can take hours to noodle out.
3) Customer support. If the going gets tough, I can send them to apple. The genius bar will talk to customers about almost anything.
I also use apple products for different reasons:
macOS: It's the most complete / reliable unix laptop I can buy that I know of.
iOS: When I started the iPhone was significantly better than any competing android. That is no longer the case, but the android deivces are not better enough to be worth switching for.
appleTV: I've had each device from gen1 - 4. When I started the gen 1 was the best option. That's no longer the case, and other devices are compelling enough to switch. I have several gen 3 devices so vendor lock-in is still pretty strong, and siri on the TV is pretty awesome. Despite that, having to serve content from itunes is a pain, and its somewhat limiting in how I can encode video from my DVR. I plan to try Kodi or MythTV next.
Caveat1: I pushed my family to OS X around 2002 when I started using it. I've spent less than 200 hours using windows since then. Windows is probably less crap than it was back then, but I have no reason to switch back.
Caveat2: I bought my Son a windows computer for gaming 2 Christmas ago. I paid about $400 for extra warranty, insurance, and enhanced customer support over 4 years. I don't work on that computer.
I personally hated the magsafe connector. It was ok on a desktop but try to use it in bed and it would come out all the time. On the other hand I abuse the heck out of my Thinkpads and I've never had an issue. I think magsafe was just a cheaper way to solve a problem that could be solved with build quality.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
My comment stands. When I was the young tech working on computers I hated having to deal with people in their 40's and 50's because they knew jack-shit about how to operate them with a few exceptions.
Now that I'm pushing 40 my favorite people to work with are the ones in their 40's and 50's because they know what they're doing, it's the 20 and 30 somethings that never bothered to learn how to use a computer even though they've had one in front of them their whole lives and they use one for a living.
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I switched to Macs partly because of AppleScript, and AppleScript is the main reason that I'm sticking with Macs. Back in 1999, Apple's website had a good description of AppleScript, as well as a tutorial on it. As I read the description and tutorial, I decided to get an iMac, so that I could use AppleScript.
AppleScript is a small scripting language that's built into the Mac OS. Besides the usual programming language stuff, it can also send commands to an application, telling the app to
- modify a document's content (including its formatting data),
- return the document's content to the script, or
- do a non-IO action such as displaying a JavaScript alert.
For example, an AppleScript can
1) read the contents of a Numbers spreadsheet, then
2) send the spreadsheet data to Safari, and tell Safari to display the data.
AppleScript can also speak in different voices, including speaking into a sound file. And it can listen for one of several words that you give it (ex: "yes" or "no"), then take action based on which word you speak. But the main reason I need AppleScript is its ability to send commands to apps.
My Grandfather could shoe a horse , fix a saddle, even repair a puncture when he got a car. Knew how to use a light meter and adjust the camera settings.
He could add up the old pounds/shillings/pence faster than I could do Dollars and cents, could use a slide rule, guess fairly accurately weights and distances.
They are saying GPS systems are ruining peoples sense of direction, calculators destroying basic maths, spell checkers and computers ruining peoples ability to write.
Give it another 20 years and you may find most computers dont even have a keyboard, voice will be how we interact with them.
Modernisation leads to a loss of basic skills because there in no longer a real need for them
Professionally? One of my assignments was running a edu lab with 16 Macs and 4 PCs. It took us the same amount to time to care for the 4 PCs as for the 16 Macs. Reason enough for me. YMMV. Personally? I go through a MacBook (minus the value of the previous one sold or parted-out) for about $900 every five years. In that same time, my wife goes through three $300 Windows laptops. Same net cost. I can move between a MacBook, iPad and iPhone seamlessly with everything in sync as soon as each hits the network. Alan Kay said the goal is to make technology work very well, then make it disappear. I'd mode that to at least blend into the surroundings, with good industrial design, durable materials and as much intuitive operation as you can muster reasonably.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Chance are you won't get the next update. It might exist but maybe your carrier won't give it to you, especially if you use one of the more boutique carriers like freedompop.
and that's the way it is with all apple products. Never really anything to worry about. When I saw people with various brands of routers getting rooted because they never updated them I just smiled knowing that my apple router was trivial to update from my apple computer.
When my iphone needs a new battery it's so easy and convenient to go to the apple store. Maybe I could pay $20 more than having some street corner dude's 10 year old kid do it but time is money and my phone will be fixed on schedule. Androids you gotta find somebody with some experience with your model if you want a good outcome and chance are you get some crappy under specced chinese replacement battery.
Apple OS just worked. It's not to say Windows hasn't caught up. But for decades I never had to even worry about my computer not working right.
Most problems on an apple, to the extent they have them can be fixed with money. With androids and windows stuff it takes a lot of effort to figure out how to fix them. Time is money.
I get a chuckle about how many people brag about paying a couple hundered dollars less for the "SAME!!" specs as an apple. At my salary thats a few hours of time. If I have to dick with my computer for a few hours more to make it work right then that was no savings. Really who would buy an OS that doesn't come with a PDF viewer built in? But for years Windows machines lacked this. You had to pay for it, or role the dice if some installer from Wombat industiires wasn't a trojan, or compiled something from source. What a waste of a life.
With apple I am buying not just simplicity in my like but the certainty of simplicity. That's called peace of mind.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
However, a base Corvette is still expensive as all get-out. Not at all like a generic beige tower case.
My beige tower case is now 17 years old, and has fairly great hardware in it.
This is begging the question -- you assume because some people seem to stick with Apple products, there MUST be some perception that they are special. Maybe, but not necessarily true. When the iPhone came out I think even you would admit that for the plan cost and functionality, it was head and shoulders above anything else out there (that plan cost thing was a big one IMO). I've tried using an Android tablet after I had my iPhone, but it was a hassle having two different platforms and the tablet didn't integrate well with my Mac laptop at all. Bye Bye Nexus, hello iPad. Switching mobile devices after some investment in paid apps is not fun, so I've stuck with Apple, even if some Android functionality is objectively better. As for laptops, I've got two words for you: Unix shell.
Text rendering is one the biggest differences imho - amazingly (to me) is that the order from best to worst text rendering is
1)Mac OS X
2) Linux
100) Windows
Yes, Windows a distant third! - the ubuntu gnome laptop fonts I am using right now to type this looks WAY WAY better than Windows and not much worse that a Mac - is amazing, I would never have thought it. Switching to Windows for apps that require it is visually painful
v
I've been running OS X for years. My current hardware is a mac pro ca. 2009, a 12/24-core, 64 GB, 3 GHz, quad-drive, 8-monitor setup. It's newish to me, I bought it used last year, (finally) replacing, in 2016, a 2008 8-core I purchased new in 2008. Apple's current mac pros are not of interest to me. Not even slightly.
So the thing is, over the years, for this platform, I've bought a lot of OS X based software. I bought it thoughtfully for the most part, and so most of it remains useful to me.
So as far as suddenly developing an itch for Windows (or linux) goes for my daily driver... nope. It's simply not practical.
This occurred, it seems to me, because the system was in fact highly reliable, none of my Apple machines ever had a hardware failure, and as that software pile grew, the "I'm invested" hooks got in deeper and deeper. It's not even that the application software is the same as (or even better than) it would be under Windows - sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't - it's just the fact that it's already there, I already paid for it, and I see no reason to do that again. I do very much like that I can open a terminal and hammer away at what amounts to a very familiar *nix environment. That seems to me to be one of the major differentiators vs. Windows. Not linux, linux is (obviously) a comfy *nix environment, but linux's graphics environment (no standard, OS-supported GUI) deters me from developing for it, so, it's not in the running to be my desktop, even if I could get over all that already-purchased software. OS X and Windows are both fully adequate graphics platforms for developing the kind of applications I work on, so that's where my interest remains.
Today, Apple doesn't sell a computer I would buy, but, there's always EBay. Apple's Mac Pro platform didn't turn into something of no interest to me until 2013 or 2014 if you go by hardware actually shipping. So there are about four years left for me to... "upgrade"... to. And in that time, Apple may finally come with a tower design I'm willing to buy into again. And my current machine seems quite capable and fast to me, so I'm not feeling any real pressure.
I expect my software will keep working just the same, Windows will continue to not run it, and so Apple it will continue to be, one way or another.
It doesn't hurt that I can open a VM with Windows and/or linux any time I need to (and I do need to, because I build win/osx cross platform software, and our web servers are all linux machines, so there are reasons to have a working linux image on my desktop as well.) I just never have to leave OSX to do that, which is damned convenient (VMWare FTW.)
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Windows is MS/DOS writ large, and poorly. There is no comparison possible. I used to build DIY/W* for others. Swore a lot. Bought my first Mac product (macbook pro 15") and 30 MINUTES later it was on the web, updating and fully functional. I never had or heard of that experience using MSFT OS products. It just works is so horrifically overused and I apologize for using it. But it is quite true. When you read articles titled 'Is 20xx the year of the Linux desktop?'. To save time, assume no. However, BSD the unix-like, but different as proved via lawsuits, is the actual underlying OS and has a great user experience. So, the BSD year of the desktop has been successful for quite some time now. That and the absolute nutty devotion to 'design' that defined the late Steve Jobs. Thankfully much of his design focus has survived his passing. That more than any other single thing is why I stayed once I got my very first apple infection.
Clearly I'm not an Apple fan-boy.
Back in the mid 90s, we had MAC LC II's at university. We also had teaching assistants who were selling us the "it just works", "no tweaking" fad crap.
Except it didn't. Telnet windows would just crash out of nowhere without knowing what went wrong all the time. Same with other programs like the programming environment we were using or Netscape.
Those things would freeze on us all the time or your application window would just disappear without a clue of what went wrong. Floppies not ejecting also. Dos and Windows had CTRL-ALT-DEL, but I grew fond of CTRL-COMMAND-OPTION-whatever combination it took to reboot that piece of crap. And that's if it didn't require a hard reset.
I think the value really is in the high-end. The 27" 5k retina super-duper Mac is probably the best value for money. Monitors with those specs are already around 1500$ (you can go much cheaper with 4k though) plus you get kick-ass performance.
1) World class applications that are cheap and/or free
2) *nix commands on OS
3) Platform that integrates with my mobile device
4) Very responsive customer service
Apple is not perfect–you can find stuff to bitch about–but on the whole I believe it to be the superior, most reliable ecosystem. Sure, there's a lot of hype behind Apple, but that's because there's a good reason for it.
---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.
Macs were easy compared to editing your CONFIG.SYS in order to have enough RAM to have your mouse driver and game working at the same time.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
The analogy is poor. Yes, the average apple is better than the average PC. It is also $1500 more expensive. If you blow the same amount then the PC will provide slightly better hardware.
What's missing from the the analogy then? Software? This is more a personal choice then - there is nothing that one can do that the other can't (excluding a few special pieces of software on either side).
I guess the other thing missing is the operator. You're right - many Porsche users would never dream of switching to a non-Porsche product. What does this say about those people? They're satisfied. They're less critical. They care about value for money less. They care about having a high quality car more.
What's a matter? Don't know Perl/Python/*nix commands that you can run on a Mac?
---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.
while macs (and the rest of apple's offerings) are hardly the best in any single class of performance, they are usually also not really bad in any of them. it's the little details/overall package that add up: - nice hardware design, featuring little details (e.g. you can open up a mbp with one hand without lifting up the bottom, the sorely missed magsafe connector, the battery charging state LEDs on older unibody mbps ...), often with a longer life-span than similar products
- nice overall hardware (good trackpad, good color calibrated monitor, good speaker for a laptop/tablet/phone, ...)
- good integration of hardware and software out of the box (e.g. "handsoff" functionality, universal clipboard, icloud backup, mail drop, talking calls and writing text messages on any device...)
- a graphical UI that tries to get out of your way most of the time
- nice software tools out of the box (Terminal, iWork, Garageband, iMovie, xcode, quartz composer, automator, applescript, color picker, audio tools,...).
the loyality probably comes partly from the closed eco-system - an iphone in tandem with an apple watch and mac is just so much nicer than standalone (again: handsoff function, calls on mac/tablet,... ) - and from the "it just works". it often doesn't nowadays, and apple's latest offerings are hopelessly overpriced, but there's still a lot that sucks more in the windows/linux world, if you prefer macs. e.g. frequent and slow windows updates, pesky and sometimes uneven looking UI that need just more clicks/longer paths to get to what you want, much more fucking around with drivers, much more slowing down after some time, that ghastly registry, a lot of the software equivalent to what comes ootb with a mac has to be installed an maintained or needs helper programs running in the background, if you buy a mac you get a complete computer but without the crapware most pc manufacturers install on their complete systems...
You're comparing an "average PC" with a 3 generations older CPU/GPU with a cheap BT/WiFi card with the "average Mac" which typically has a current-gen CPU/GPU.
Compare your "average Mac" to a Dell or HP that has the same features and specifications - suddenly Mac's are $500 cheaper.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
I'm dead serious. And you're right, these thoughts are going on in your head. I'm a bit over analytical (which is a nice way of saying I'm neurotic) so I think about these things.
I'm not good at recognizing crazy. I can't read people's faces and body language. I probably have mild Asperger syndrome. I know my brother does. So I can't shield my kid from them. She's young and naive so neither can she.
Yes, there's plenty of good poor people but here's the rub: There's a _lot_ of money in American. Now, we've been giving most of it to the 1% for about 20 years now, but there's still a lot out there. If you're unable to score a piece of it odds are good there's something wrong. Maybe not with you, but with someone close to you. Again, we're talking odds. I'm playing the odds here. I've spent the last 5 years getting my ass kicked by the US economy. I'm right on the edge of solvency. I can't take risks. Again, I'm American, so no safety net. No socialized medicine. No housing assistance (Section 8 has an 8 year wait list) no food stamps ($8/hr and 25 hours a week won't get you an apartment but it _will_ disqualify you from food stamps).
I don't share these thoughts with my kid. When she's old enough and has a college education her environment will protect her. She'll live in a well to do suburb and when it starts going down hill she'll move. Her kids will go to a nice school where poor kids can't afford to live. If those poor kids try to go to the nice school their parents will get arrested (google it). We use property taxes to segregate the poor and avoid paying for their services here in American.
You're experiencing all that too, you just don't notice it. It's done for you by city planners and your city council. It's all couched in nice terms about low taxes and paying for your own kid's education and all sorts of other things. Pointing stuff like this out really touches a nerve. Nobody likes to acknowledge the distortions in our society....
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Yes, because Apple has never had hardware trouble with their devices. This includes the fact that Apple has had a non-zero number of battery explosion reports. I'm not going to defend Samsung, nor am I going to say Apple hardware is shit. I'm just pointing out that companies are made up of people and people screw up. This is true, regardless of which side of the fence you're on.
As for reboots fixing issues, you're acting like the same isn't true of Android in most cases.
"As someone who comes from MS-DOS/Windows PCs background..."
Does anyone even still run MS-DOS anymore, except for certain niche applications? I guess in that case I come from a DOS 3.3 background (Apple 2 DOS), but I only admit it after about the fifth beer or so.
I use Windows, Linux and my MacBook Pro. Each one of them is best for something. If you need to use all three then the MacBook is the only machine that will do all three (unless you build a Hackintosh).
I like my MB Pro for general stuff because I like it, it doesn't give me advertising on my desktop, has a mostly decent version of Office and it syncs w/my iPhone. I can answer text messages in the Messages app & use one device to verify another. It runs VirtualBox well so I can load just about anything in a VM. It's a solid machine - the display is very nice (Retina) and it doesn't feel plastic compared to most Windows laptops. But if you start looking at laptops comparable to the MB the price starts going up fast so the price difference isn't as bad as it first appears.
I get irked at Apple when it comes time to upgrade something. Basically, you don't. You sell your old one and get a new one. Just like a phone.
As for the auto-update-at-the-most-inconvienient-time feature of Windows 10 I use Pro on my Windows machine. Way more options to keep that from happening. I prefer Windows 7 but I need to make sure stuff runs on 10 so it makes sense to use it. I don't keep anything personal on it - it's a dev box - so I'm not worried about Microsoft selling my browsing history or whatever they do with that telemetry.
As for Linux - Fedora with KDE so I can amaze people with the spinning cube. :)
As far as the iPhone is concerned there are several reasons I have one. First, the stupid factory stereo in my car won't hardly talk to an Android phone and the stereo is so integrated with the car it's not real practical to replace it. The only way with Android to make sure you get security updates is to either get a Nexus or root it and put a different ROM on it. I loved my Android phone but I found I spent a lot of time tweaking it. Not because it wasn't working but because there are so many options I just ended up playing with it.
laptops warranted to run GNU/Linux
You do realize it's possible to change the operating system a machine ships with, right?
Installing a different operating system doesn't change the warranty. If a PC is warranted to run Windows, changing this warranty is something only its manufacturer, as the guarantor, can do. Some PCs that ship with Windows have major features not working under GNU/Linux, such as WLAN, Bluetooth, audio, or suspend. As I understand it, very few makers of these PCs are willing to allow incompatibility with GNU/Linux as a valid excuse to return a PC for a refund or replacement.
Good news: The answer is short.
Bad news: The answer is "If you have to ask the question, you probably won't understand the answer."
OK, I'll give it a serious shot...
I used to love Windows in the 95/98/2k era, and Mac OS was kinda so-so at the time. (System 7/8/9). My 1 GHz PIII with 256 MB RAM ran W2K like a Swiss watch. My day job was Mac support and they were OK but I always liked Windows more.
Then XP came out and started getting worse and worse and worse*, an around the same time OS X came out and just got better and better and better, and also around that time Mac hardware became cheaper, and over the course of a few years I totally switched and I've never looked back.
And now we have Windows 10 with basically un-turn-off-able updates, telemetry, and ads. I liked OS X more in the 10.6-10.8 days but the current macOS is still light-years better than MS's current offering.
Long story short, Macs do what I want in the way I want them to, and Windows doesn't. If you've happy with Windows and it works for you, great! Stick with it.
* And I'm just talking about from one version of XP to the next. Luckily I've never had to deal much with the Vista/7/8/10 shitshow. I have one Win7 machine at work that I barely use and I've turned off as many dumb effects as possible. I had a tablet PC (remember those?) with XP and it was pretty nice, and then after updating to XP SP2 its wireless went to hell.
Found a network!
Connected!
Signal strength -- EXCELLENT! *air guitar*
Network connection dropped.
Found a network!
Connected!
... repeat forever...
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
stupid.
I remember my first & last mobile phone made by Sony Ericsson. It was so terrible, that Sony fired the entire team. The much needed firmware updates to a phone that never worked were nonexistent. My first iPhone? Apple supported it for *years* with software & feature updates. This was unheard of. If you keep upgrading the hardware, why will customers ever buy a new phone? They still kick ass and push updates months ahead of Android handsets. Are you even on Nougat yet? I've also never had a macOS update brick my install. Windows? That was par for the course. That alone is reason enough to avoid Windows, rather than embrace the Macintosh. But also, for a long time, Mac updates made things faster. Every Windows service pack impacted performance and made my machines perform terribly. Two decades of dealing with that shit first hand, you don't want to acknowledge that Microsoft has improved. They've been fucking me over for years. I almost was fired, because of a Windows server crashing. Not my fault, Windows just couldn't not crash. My boss accused me of being incompetent until we hired a "certified professional" that couldn't keep it up. Linux lacks the software applications I need. Going back to Windows feels like welcoming an abusive step father back into your life. I developed on Windows for years. I put up with it. I even bought Vista. It was the only time I've thrown my keyboard in rage. For years I dealt with their compilers, that perverted the C & C++ standards. Not in a way that made things better, but to just be a dick and make your code depend on the bullshit. The practices of taking something standard like LDAP & Kerberos, and changing them just enough to "Microsoftize" them. Slowing down HTTP for browsers not running Internet Explorer. etc. etc. Apple is very compelling when faced with a history of bad memories and late nights. Fuck Microsoft.
My first computer was an Apple II purchased in 1981. Armed with VisiCalc, I was a a spreadsheet warrior.
After using CP/M and MP/M in '82 and '83, I got my first MS-Dos PC in 1982.
For ten years, I loved MS-DOS, and my personal computing world included WordStar, VisiCalc, dBase, Q&A, BASIC, Forth, and 1802 Assembler.
In 1992, I transitioned to MS Windows, MS Office, Access, Oracle, and never looked back.
In 2012, I joined a company where part of my job was to support executives who were struggling to use MS Excel on MacBooks.
In 2013, I bought an 11" MacBook Air not because I wanted to, but because I couldn't convince those executives that using Windows devices did not make them look old and "out of touch."
While I had to special order it, my MacBook Air has an i7 processor, 16 GB of RAM, and a 1 TB SSD. (That size RAM and disk were not available in Apple stores at that time.) It cost almost three times more than if I had bought a Dell or HP laptop with similar specs.
For my own computing needs, I run Windows under Parallels on that MacBook Air and switch back to the Mac environment only when absolutely necessary.
So here we are in 2017. My MacBook air still looks like it is brand new. It still runs 100% of the software I need to do my job (especially Visio and MS Project). Even 3+ years later, the hardware specs are not antiquated. While I have a brand new Windows desktop at home, the Apple is in my hands the entire work day.
From a ruggedness and reliability perspective, my MacBook Air has been phenomenal.
While my next laptop will probably be a Yoga, (I bought one for my youngest son and he loves it), who knows ow many more years my 2013 MacBook Air will continue to be the machine with which I earn my living.
Obligatory XKCD Mac vs. Windows comic: https://xkcd.com/934/
Live Long and Prosper - Thanks Leonard. You are missed.
Oh shit - pissed off a fanboi.
I think you're wrong. To suggest that the average mac is bleeding edge is crap. Let's assume there is a 4 year upgrade cycle on the average home computer. That would mean that 25% are new, 25% are one year old, 25% are three years old, and 25% are four years old.
So at least 50% are out of date. And this is generous - there are always people with macs years out of date. My forecast relies on everyone updating every four years.
But we can also critically assess some of the other crap you posted. For example, I would agree with the statement that a lot of PC sales are technology that are a generation out of date. But I would contest that once you equalise for price. If you want to go to the effort of disproving me go for it, but a quick peruse of Dell's website shows that only sell PCs with 6th and 7th gen processors in their home range - you can't get older. This is equivalent to the iMac range.
Further, maybe because you're a fanboi, you seem to think that the WiFi card is a high end peice of equipment that will drastically effect user experience. I would suggest that's absolute crap, and that maybe you should look to something like the graphics card, for which Apple is renowned for lagging behind in terms of technology. Then again, maybe that's why macs are cheaper. Which they're not.
I would have been fine with phasing the USB-C ports in with at least a single traditional USB port for backwards compatibility.
I haven't had a Mac laptop in years, but those USB-C ports are actually Thunderbolt with USB backward compatibility. One little hub can get you an external screen (HDMI, VGA, whatever), USB type A, and Ethernet. A docking station in one cord.
The soldering and no RAM upgrades is pretty much what kills their pro laptop line dead in the water.
Well, it's obvious from your comment you didn't read all of mine.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
If you are trying to use a Mac as though it were a PC then you are going to be frustrated--so maybe that's not the right strategy.
It really comes down to that. Microsoft hates you--that's why your computer goes into update in the middle of a presentation. That's why all your info is by default sent to Microsoft until you unclick a million boxes.
Linux doesn't hate you exactly, but it certainly doesn't love you. And if you're the kind of guy that doesn't want to spend a few hours on Stackoverflow to get your Linux box to print to a wireless printer--then, yeah, they kind of hate you.
The 911 is pretty much the best sports car on the planet that can still be used as a daily driver. Calling it a 'crap car' is just being petty, and probably jealous.
I wouldn't call it the best, but it certainly is a very good sports car that can be used as a daily. However the 911 has issues, mostly with a rear mounted engine and as such out of Porsche's range I'd take the Coxter (Cayman). If money were no object, I'd have to say Aston Martin or Maserati would be a better daily sports car.
The Corvette is more hit and miss as a car, and it's no 911, but in terms of raw fun per dollar it's pretty hard to beat.
The Corvette is something you have to admire for its simplicity and barn door engineering. German cars are high tech done well, the Vette is low tech done well. Its a simple thing, big V8 at the front, power to the back, manual transmission in the middle. Given the choice between a 911 and a Vette, I'd take the vette because I like the purer driving experience, fewer electronic aids make for a more exiting drive to me.
As for the GTR, that is a completely different kettle of fish, a GTR pretty much has 3000 mile service intervals and these are more than just a quick oil change. That means it's less of an everyday sports car and more of an every day race car. They are phenomenal on the track, but expensive to run as a daily.
My ideal sports car would have to be styled by the Italians, engineered by the Germans, interior by the British, manufactured by the Japanese... and priced by the Americans.
Ironically though you are probably right about the Apple. The *mystique* (here you actually do want the 'french' word. mystic is just wrong.) and bragging rights is a big part of the appeal. Apple is a cooler brand than Android or Samsung or LG etc... but Apple's brand strength is fading, IMO.
Apples success comes down to one thing. Marketing. Apple is, or at least was, very, very, very, very, very, very good at marketing.
The problem with marketing is that all marketing is bullshit. Apple, Microsoft, Toyota... it doesn't matter. It's all BS and the more bullshit you feed someone, the more resistance to it they'll gain. Apple is reaching the point where they can't get any more customers with marketing, in fact they're going to start losing them.
To make a car analogy, an Apple product is a lot like a Toyota Camry, simple, unoffensive, basic and beige. Like a Camry, even someone on benefits can get one. Apple have no exclusivity, and that erodes their coolness. Not everyone can own a Maserati, and that is part of the appeal. Apple has simply become passe and as unexciting as the Camry. The problem with the Toyota Camry is not the Camry, it's reasonably priced, relatively comfortable, sufficient power, good efficiency and reliable to a fault. There is simply nothing wrong with a Camry, but nothing special about it either, the problem with the Toyota Camry are the Camry drivers. They buy a Camry because it's the least effort, they don't need to think about it and they take this attitude with all aspects of their driving. Such as it is with Apple's customers, the marketing is wearing off and people are starting to think, is the Iphone as good as we thought it was. The answer is no and because of this, Apple are becoming dependent on those who don't want to think about their purchase.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
It really depends on what period of time you are talking about.
I've always been a Microsoft Windows user through and through since MS-DOS days too.
I've toyed with several different Linux distros, and Mac OS.
On the mobile side, I used everything from Symbian to Windows Mobile to iOS and Android. iOS was just an iPad, but still.
Early days of iOS I'd have to say it was probably innovation. Most of the innovation that came to mobile in early days of smartphone was on iPhones. Apps still arguably comes first on iOS too. It's still a more solid, secure and robust platform for both devs and users. And then there's the paralysis of choice argument... you don't have to think about much when buying or upgrading your iPhone.
Ok, now as a desktop/laptop platform. Apple has positioned itself pretty well in the creative/artistic market overall offering a platform which yes, you pay more, but you have a more focused OS that's both stable and better supported than Windows.
It's the market of people who needs to use a computer as a tool, but cannot be bothered with all the unnecessary complexities around computers for their job.
It certainly has ups and downs, but they managed to build an entire ecosystem around a number of products that attends the needs of big parts of the creative/artistic market. The aim is to be invisible while being useful as a tool to accomplish their jobs, something that Windows was never great at.
With a more solid foundation regarding security and privacy, plus the fact that their market is still niche when compared to Windows that goes for all and everything, it not only became something of an exclusivity/luxury club, but also a more focused platform for the target audience.
Paralysis of choice also plays it's role here. Instead of a multitude of brands and configurations, you have a handful of very spread out updates and upgrades overtime. The only thing Apple is kinda failing right now is in not keeping up with times, specially in the pro sector. Apple has switched a whole lot to a more mainstream market instead of attending first the needs of the professional market.
Macs and iPhones might have stumbled these days to keep up with the most recent tech like the newest nVidia graphics card generation, touchscreen on laptops, or high end pro specs in pro labeled gear... but you know what bullshit MacOS don't have? Ads on the file manager, scummy strategies to force people to upgrade, a whole ton of scummy telemetry strategies to harvest information from every user, and a failed app store that Microsoft keeps trying to force on people knowing that no one uses it.
This is quite a sad shift in direction... since the whole Windows 10 crap started, I've been considering to switch to any other OS that doesn't go that route. I've kept and old PC with Windows 7, I have an old laptop running Ubuntu, and if I ever start working with video editing again, I might just go for a Mac.
I never heard from Mac users complaining of problems remotely similar with the Windows in Windows out problem (the cycle of having one extremely buggy and crappy Windows version followed by a good one), or of new OS versions sucking balls 'till the first or second service pack comes out. Yes, trouble happens every now and then, but it's passable bugs when compared to the stuff Microsoft used to pull.
It's also not about being better or worse, it's just a different philosophy. Apple charges more and limits design decisions and overall direction internally. Microsoft puts things out, lets a whole ton of different brands and companies to do their own stuff, and handles it as much as it can.
There's definitely a comfort on simplifying things, limiting the OS for the purpose of usability, and hiding a whole lot of complexity under the hood just to have a functional computer or device. For lots of people it's just worth paying more for a simplified tool that does what they need it to do and only that, period.
We're still talking about a niche market worldwide, but it's t
As someone who comes from Kia/Hyundai background, I've never quite understood the appeal of Porsche's products. I don't think Porsche's products are terrible or anything, but I just fail to see what is so special and different about Porsche's cars that many Porsche users would never dream of switching to a non-Porsche product.
You're not a car guy.
OK, the first thing is, only a few Porsche owners will never own any other car. This alone makes the comparison between Apple and Porsche completely wrong.
The appeal of a Porsche to car guys is their technical perfection (another inconsistency in the analogy). Porsche's are drivers cars, they offer maximum control and feedback to the driver (pretty much the opposite of Apple). I'm not a Porsche fanboy in any sense of the word, but I see the appeal of the vehicles because I am a petrolhead. When you consider the wants of a petrolhead, you cant really go past Porsche for price and performance, sure, there are cheaper drivers cars, there are better drivers cars but there aren't better drivers cars for less than a Porsche.
I also love technology, but I cant see the appeal of Apple products and when Apple fanboys start talking I understand why, I revel in doing things with my technology (the same as I revel in controlling my car, which is a Nissan 200sx S15), I like changing settings, I want control over my device. When Apple fanboys start talking about their devices they have two arguments, first to attack the competition, to deride Microsoft and Google, the second it to say how little they have to think about their devices. Thats why I'm not Apple's target market, I do think about what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. This is what makes a petrolhead different to the steering wheel attendants in their automatic white goods who only want to go from A to B, when a petrolhead goes from A to B, he wants to strap in for the ride.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Lol rabid much. I was comparing the average computer on the shelves these days (eg. the $500 HP from NewEgg/WalMart) that people compare brand new MacBook Pro's with.
Once you configure an XPS 15 with similar specs and software on their business site, I come out to ~$2500 compared to a $2300 MBP but even taking out all the 'upgrades', you're within $200. Sure, their front page has cheaper computers but at that point you're comparing Apples to lemons.
Regards the BT/WiFi adapters, many, many laptops I've seen have combo chipsets that use the same, tiny antenna for both BT and WiFi, using both together causes severe reduction in range for both if it doesn't lock up the driver/chip altogether. Some others skimp on the technology altogether and still sell 802.11b or n chipsets, low res camera's or even some non-standard display resolution like 1200x1050.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
I wouldn't call it the best, but it certainly is a very good sports car that can be used as a daily. However the 911 has issues, mostly with a rear mounted engine and as such out of Porsche's range I'd take the Coxter (Cayman).
The Cayman is an interesting car, and with the mid engine it is nicely balanced. The issue with the Cayman is its the 911's little sibling, so Porsche is, I think, holding it back a bit on purpose to keep the 911 out front.
As for the 911 itself, it is the flagship so it doesn't have that issue. It used to be a bit of a beast due to the rear engine, but that has been completely tamed for a long time now; *especially* in the AWD models.
If money were no object, I'd have to say Aston Martin or Maserati would be a better daily sports car.
Yeah, they're certainly very driveable and quite a bit more exclusive, but I think ultimately that plays into the Porsche's favor. I have at least 6+ Porsche shops within an hour of here that are either Porsche exclusive or at least Porsche specialists. There are dealers and aftermarket specialty places if you want Ruf or Techart etc. The technicians have lots of experience from working on the cars day in and day out and know about all the odd ball problems; and there is a large community of owner/enthusiasts with DIY knowledge and support. That's part of what makes the car a viable daily driver.
Maserati and Aston Martin are both just a little too 'Ferrari' by comparison... the parts aren't ever in stock, everything costs a fortune (even relative to Porsche), and the techs are fewer and further apart and you just can't get the same level of real actual experience unless perhaps you live in a very few places. For example Autotrader lists 13 Aston's of ANY make / model / year for sale in the local metro area of 2.5 million. Maserati... 29.... there are actually more Ferrari listed at 31. There are over 200 Porsches listed, and almost half of them are some 911.
PS -- I really agree with you about Apple. About the marketing, about them really being beige Camry's once you see through the marketing lustre. Great analogy there.
The USB-C hate is transitional. It seems bad now. In 5 years, we'll look back and wonder at having so many different ports.
Just like when USB started and replaced the mouse port, and the keyboard port, and the serial port, and the parallel port, and the game port, and some other ports.
After all this time, why haven't you created an account?
Are you Italian or Greek?
I wouldn't call it the best, but it certainly is a very good sports car that can be used as a daily. However the 911 has issues, mostly with a rear mounted engine and as such out of Porsche's range I'd take the Coxter (Cayman).
The Cayman is an interesting car, and with the mid engine it is nicely balanced. The issue with the Cayman is its the 911's little sibling, so Porsche is, I think, holding it back a bit on purpose to keep the 911 out front.
As for the 911 itself, it is the flagship so it doesn't have that issue. It used to be a bit of a beast due to the rear engine, but that has been completely tamed for a long time now; *especially* in the AWD models.
Couldn't agree more, the Cayman could be better than it is and Porsche are deliberately keeping it under the 911.
Budget is also a reason I'm thinking Cayman. I'm at a point in my life where I could afford a decent used one (outright).
If money were no object, I'd have to say Aston Martin or Maserati would be a better daily sports car.
Yeah, they're certainly very driveable and quite a bit more exclusive, but I think ultimately that plays into the Porsche's favor. I have at least 6+ Porsche shops within an hour of here that are either Porsche exclusive or at least Porsche specialists. There are dealers and aftermarket specialty places if you want Ruf or Techart etc. The technicians have lots of experience from working on the cars day in and day out and know about all the odd ball problems; and there is a large community of owner/enthusiasts with DIY knowledge and support. That's part of what makes the car a viable daily driver.
Maserati and Aston Martin are both just a little too 'Ferrari' by comparison... the parts aren't ever in stock, everything costs a fortune (even relative to Porsche), and the techs are fewer and further apart and you just can't get the same level of real actual experience unless perhaps you live in a very few places. For example Autotrader lists 13 Aston's of ANY make / model / year for sale in the local metro area of 2.5 million. Maserati... 29.... there are actually more Ferrari listed at 31. There are over 200 Porsches listed, and almost half of them are some 911.
PS -- I really agree with you about Apple. About the marketing, about them really being beige Camry's once you see through the marketing lustre. Great analogy there.
Oddly enough, I looked at Aston Martins around southern England earlier this evening, you could get a 2006 DB9 for around GBP 50,000. But yes, they are priced to be somewhat exclusive where as a Porsche is an everymans sports car.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
The 1980's it was the GUI that was sold in a better way than M$.
In the 1990's it was that music, art, graphics got created on a Mac to be sold to Windows users.
Later it was just about trendy and been seen with an expensive product. Music player, watch, phone, tablet.
In the past it was productivity, quality work been created by the user, now its just about sales to average people who need to be have the latest trend or fashion.
From creating content to selling apps that let people with no skills try and be creative.
The special appeal is the GUI still works and the hardware and software still creates an app that will sell to users.
The appeal to the creative person is that they can sell to the herd.
The appeal to the user is they stand out from the herd when seen using an expensive Apple product.
The problem for Apple is the really creative people have moved to Linux and Windows to get more RAM, CPU, GPU power.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I enjoy macOS because it looks polished and doesn't get in my way. Mac hardware, like my 2006 MBP is solid and pleasant to work on, even the fans on that old MBP are in perfect health whereas I had to replace them both in my 4yr old windows laptop. macOS is my favourite environment for SW development.
In 2010 I broke my neck and am now on a very tight budget. Employers don't like quadriplegics after years of rehab with a need to work from home some of the time.
So in 2013 I got a cheapish Windows laptop. I'd prefer Linux but play a game a lot that runs badly there, so windows it is. I have to say, windows 10 is arrogantly trying to control me more than the other way around and I'm missing macOS or Linux as main OS. I do run Linux in a VM for Rust development (dual booting is annoying) but if I could afford a MBP I'd get one in a heartbeat.
On the phone side I had an iPhone 4s which I replaced with a Samsung S6 because it was cheaper than the competing iPhone. Both run the same apps, use same mail provider, there is no real lock in either way and I don't care if I run iOS or Android.
for one, the shitty OS you live with is not based on BSD Unix, or on any Unix for that matter.
Some us like Macs because Windows is shit and Unix is awesome....
I'm not a fan of the Mac though. The OS is complicated, adds about $600 to the price, and you have to install windows to make them useful.
Why do you say that the OS adds about $600 to the price? macOS is free.
The thing that is special about Apple is that it has become a luxury brand. Being able to afford Apple products is a sign of wealth and social status, just the same as buying a Ford vs. buying a BMW. Sure, there are technical things about Mac that are nice, the UNIX based OS for example, but that only matters to geeks on /. Build quality was a major reason to buy Apple 5 years ago when PCs were a sea of cheap plastic, but with machines like the Surface, Spectre, XPS 13, and Yoga the other OEMs have more or less cleaned up their act.
For the average consumer, they start their computer, they click the Chrome icon and then they type in facebook.com and look at the daily gossip. For that type of usage, the only difference between Windows and macOS is that the location of the Chrome icon is slightly different. The reason they buy the Apple system is because the machine looks fancy and expensive and it has that Apple logo on the lid so they fit in with everyone else when they bring it to Starbucks.
Simple, because it's pretty.
Thank god I never bought things because they're pretty.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion. -- Spazmania (174582)
There are a lot of good answers in here, so I wanted to just answer one small part of the "And why are Apple users so very loyal to Apple products" that I think is outside of the category that also answers all the other questions. From what I've seen of friends who are fans of Apple products, Apples habit of replacing more widely compatible solutions with proprietary ones forces people further into the Apple ecosystem. Having a lot of options can actually be stressful for people. After reflecting on some contexts in my life in which I go for familiar because I just can't be bothered to inspect new things, It's easier for me to see how someone so immersed in ownership of their I-life, that trying to step into a world of open protocols and standards without any intentional compatibility issues to restrict your choices can actually bring someone out of their comfort zone. Additionally, they've put themselves in a situation where some products they already own will no longer be compatible with their new product, which makes them feel like they have to make a decision to change their whole consumer life rather than just a change in the decision about one product. Staying with Apple just makes things simpler, which kind of fits in with the whole Apple theme.
> Regards the BT/WiFi adapters, many, many laptops I've seen have combo chipsets that use the same, tiny antenna for both BT and WiFi, using both together causes severe reduction in range for both if it doesn't lock up the driver/chip altogether.
Do you do that much? Have your BT and Wireless operating concurrently? Because the antenna can't operate both at the same time - the system will alternate timeshare the two.
> Some others skimp on the technology altogether and still sell 802.11b or n chipsets, low res camera's or even some non-standard display resolution like 1200x1050.
Which is my point - you're then not doing an apples to apples comparison.
Like many here on slashdot I'm an A-Grade Computer Expert.
I had my fist encounter with microcomputers at the delicate age of 9, playing Lunar Landing on a Comodore PET at my dad's workplace back in the late 70ies. For me being able to Programm a computer off the bat was always the main and most important trait of a computer. My first own computer was a Sharp PC 1402 (PC standing for "Pocket Computer") - it was portable, had a small Qwerty Keyboard but most of all it was programmable, in Basic.
Long story short, I've alway gone the programmer side of the beated path when it comes to computers. I got my first Mac roughly in 2003, when the famous 12" iBook G4 (with seperate Wifi Module) was the best Subnotebook you could get for 1000 Euros, hundreds of euros cheaper than the next cheapest offering from Toshiba. I wanted to run the Flash IDE and wouldn't touch a portable Windows machine with a ten-foot pole.
The one thing that struck me with the Apple Computers, aside from the Windows boxes, my self-made Abit BP6 dual celeron running SuSE Linux and all the other stuff Nerds like us tinker with day-in and day-out, was that the Apple devices work.
Out of the box.
This is the plain and simple truth that holds until today, even with the golden cage in iTunes and "secure pay" or whatever it's called built into the newest Macbook Pros moving further in to give users a cushy lock-in.
When it comes to zero-fuss "buy, unpack, works" computing, Apple rules unchallanged in every imaginable way. Good hardware, good design, unmatched out-of-the-box usability just short of an meticulously expert-configured KDE on an expert-built custom box. ... No shovelware. No shitty third-party endorsements (how I hate these shitty windows notebooks with their stickers and crap ...) , no MS crap (Oh God, the MS crap - just thinking of it makes me sick) ... Apple is passionate about software and they build their own hardware. This shows at every corner. It is very much as Steve Jobs said: They don't want to build crap - and it shows.
I bought a mac mini a few years later and then a few years later the 2011 MB Air.
Again, a totally new category of device that works out of the box. With Unix. And lot's of very neat open source offerings to improve your development life.
Fast forward to today, my latest computer is a 300 Euro Free-DOS netbook (Asus Travelmate B117) that I installed Lubuntu 16 LTS on, for the simple reason that I didn't want to shell out 2300 Euros for those new MacBook touchbar devices and I'm actually faster at work if I use a box that forces me to use the CLI and a lightweight WM.
Also, Flash is dead, so I don't need it's IDE anymore. And it's the first and probably last proprietary technology I will ever have worked with. Adobe can go and f*ck itself - I will probably never use any of their tools for anything mission critical again. I also find the iTunes and apple-lock-in secure-fingerprint thingie on the new MBs a little disconcerting. Also right now Apple is expensive again in every device category including the mac mini - which used to be a real bargain deal throughout the entire industry.
So after 13 years, macs are off the menu again and I'm back to Linux as my main system and once again a cheap Linux netbook is a good choice.
But all that aside, it still holds true: If you want the all-out zero-fuss experience, you can not go wrong with a mac. The only thing lately competing with Apple in this regard is Google with their ecosystem and Chromebooks rounding off the upper edge. You can have an experience simular to Apples with a notably cheaper Chromebook. But I'm not quite there yet throwing myself completely into the arms of Google. I'm a computer expert, I want control and I distrust the big corporations - and for good reasons too.
But if you're not an expert and you have money to spare, Apple will never let you down. And AFAICT it has been that way ever since Steve Jobs came back on board and introduc
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
It's the same thing they are just compensating for something :)
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
BMW's don't require proprietary gas pumps and you can buy 3rd party windshield wipers. It seems to me that Apple is too busy "thinking different" to think about interoperability. And god forbid you need to use Exchange features beyond sending and receiving, like access to shared resources.
I can offer something from the business perspective. My company, which is about 125 people total, started offering Apple Macbook Pro laptops as an alternative to Dell with Windows 7 Professional as a pilot project. And what we've found is that the 10% of the company that has an Apple product has fewer issues with hardware or software, and our support costs per end user comes out to about $500 less per year in the Apple ecosystem than Dell. The only issue that we've seen is one site that has a Citrix application that requires Windows to sign in. Other than that, our Macbook Pro folks are much, much happier and self sufficient. From a personal perspective, and as an author (my part-time gig), I can tell you that Apple's software just works, even when compared to Amazon's Kindle. For example, if someone buys my book on their Kindle, but wants to read it on their laptop or phone, they have to download it to each device and remember where they were, etc. But if they buy my book on iBooks, it's downloaded to every device. So they could read on their laptop at work, continue on their iPad later that night at home (from the same place where they left off without having to think/worry about it) and then in the morning, go to the dentist and pull the book up on their phone - and again, pick right up from where they left off.
There is so much wrong with your thinking here that I am a bit bewildered about how to best address it. Besides the fact that you cannot evade mental illness in this manner, and actually instead could be setting up your child for some mental dysfunction of her own, what you are definitely doing is driving up the likelihood that the less affluent children in your area will stay less affluent and thus more prone to related stress-induced mental issues. Own that you are contributing to (probably measurable) increased levels of depression in your community thanks to the "crazies" (ie: the less well off) being ostracized by the "rich" kids, who think they are so much better people because they have iProducts.
A well-balanced person will be able to navigate society successfully without having to fearfully avoid entire classes of people less fortunate than themselves. Perhaps instead you should teach your child how to recognize personality issues to be avoided in ALL social classes (sociopaths, manipulators, jealousy, passive aggression, etc.), while being considerate and helpful to the less fortunate, while you focus on the problems of the affluent:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1950124/>The Culture of Affluence: Psychological Costs of Material Wealth
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10439196/Children-of-rich-parents-suffering-increased-mental-health-problems.html>Children of rich parents suffering increased mental health problems
ps, I doubt you will change your mind based on this diatribe, but it needed to be said.
Everything and its opposite is true. Get used to it.
Butler Lampson summed it up best: Apple knows how make things "yummy".
Ok. I've used Windows in every version since it began. I've owned and used Apple computers since the Apple IIe. I have used and owned systems running Linux as well (Ubuntu, and SuSE with various user interfaces). My hardware ranges from what ever Apple put out, to a Hackintosh, and I've built both Linux and Windows systems. Work runs Windows. Home runs Apple and Windows.
Apple computer systems have always worked well. I can count on one hand the number of times the OS ate itself causing me to lose data. It is a similar tale for the applications that run on Apple platforms. These machines run well, run for long periods of time, and seldom break. That's been my experience over the last 34 years of using Apple computers. The software is usually consistent from version to version - iTunes being a notable and aggravating exception - I've certainly cursed iTunes for moving the repeat one song many times button around with every damn version. Yeah. I hate that. But for the most part, the UI stays the same so if you learned a decade ago, it's probably still working the same way.
Windows: I have a long list of times when Windows has crashed and I've lost data. I've had Windows update and take out my entire lab. I've had Windows or Windows applications stop working in the middle of a routine, repetitive operation, for no apparent reason, and require a reboot or two. Windows based systems regularly fail and lose data or require operations to be repeated. The hardware varies when using windows, and the cheaper solutions are usually the first to fail some within months of purchase. Windows and windows applications - especially the ubiquitous Office, love to change the way things work - redesigning the user interface with every iteration regardless of the fact that no user I know really appreciates all of the changes to the locations and functions of windows. Trying to solve a printer connection issue for instance greatly depends upon which version of Windows you have just to figure out where to start looking. Trying to figure out how to connect a printer on Windows 8 after using Windows 7 was like an episode of Dexter's lab: What does this button do? Only far less entertaining.
Linux: Compatible hardware can be tricky to get - but that got better as time went on. SuSE ran the back end of an entire company without complaint and despite the abuse of worn out infrastructure - hell lighting hit the server room and the only things that still worked were the two Linux based servers so I always get a chuckle out of that. Ubuntu is nice for a desktop that most people can't break. If you want something that will play nice with a company intranet and not be vulnerable to the late night Pr0n viruses, Ubuntu was a good choice - might still be, but I've not used it in a decade. Of course, with Linux you can really get into the minutia of the OS. If you want to.
Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
Then you make an argument from incredulity.
So, your clickbait question is very clickbait.
I use Apple, Microsoft and Linux operating systems. Perhaps that experience will help me help you.
I use whatever operating system that helps me do my work. In most cases, that is my Apple Machine, I have software on it that doesn't exist on other platforms. So I tend to stick with it, because the simple stuff is on all platforms.
With the advent of smartphones, my iPhone integrates very well with it, right out of the box. Relatively secure by comparison to Windows. I prefer Unix overall, and Apple doesn't change the interface willy nilly.
My Windows machines. When all is working, they work very well. But if you have a lot of peripherals, updates will hose your machine. And with the Windows 10 no choice update schema, this presents a problem. Security is less - although with W10, is passible. Using W10, you give them the keys to the kingdom, and have to work very hard to fight your OS maker if you are concerned about security. Having multiple systems, I just chose to have minimal information on my Windows machines.
Linux? I'm a late comer to Linux, since maybe 2006 or so. While I don't have as many professional Linux solution only needs for it, I have a lot of fun with it, and enjoy it's Unix-y capabilities.
In order of preference, its:
MacOS Unix
Linux
Windows
I guess the best thing about Windows was that it allowed me to make a very good living, keeping the machines running over the years.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
If we are doing car analogies, I would say that Apple products are an automatic. You pay a premium for an auto transmission and sacrifice control. Additionally, replacement of these premium parts are expensive. They do, however, make life easier for the person who wants to mindlessly drive.
Whereas the Windows machines are like Lucas Electrics on British cars. 8^)
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Yes, most people have BT headphones or keyboards/mice these days. On a Mac and high-end laptops the antenna's are split and well designed (eg. along the display). In cheap devices (including many of Dell's lineup) they are an add-on card with either a circuit-board antenna or the antenna's are just laying parallel to the motherboard.
But if you wanted the $1000 cheaper devices, that's what you end up with. There is a reason Mac's have a certain expense to them, it's not just a $2000 markup.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Yep, it's the best *nix laptop on the market. Helps me do my job. They also last forever, we just replaced my wife's old MBP last month, it was 8 years old!
I generally replace Windows machines after 4 years, Macs a bit over 7 years. Which is why I chuckle when people yap about how expensive Macs are.
One time a co-worker was agitating for switching the department from Macs to Windows, citing how inexpensive they were by comparison. I simply brought out his requisitions and showed him that he spent a lot more than anyone else, and what would happen to our computing expenses if we adopted his schema.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I hate how physical MAC gets with me.
I come from the Windows world also. I started with an iPod oh so many years ago, and in addition to holding all that music, and being bug free and easy to use, it could run apps! Yeah, it cost a lot more, but in the end I felt I got my money's worth in aggravation avoided. My first phones were android, but when the company decided to get us iPhones, there's been no turning back . The functionality and intuitive interface are unmatched . Even when I needed to buy my own phone after retirement, I shelled out the extra bucks for the iPhone without hesitation. I've used android, windows, and Apple tablets and again, there's no comparison. While I experienced daily or weekly app crashes with windows and android, even the newer versions, I've only had to reboot my iPad once or twice a year. I haven't worked on an Apple desktop or laptop so I can't speak to those.
Apple products are not for everyone, but that misses the point. They make an effort to refine the product that goes beyond just "good enough". If more companies did the same thing ... not just in Tech but over all categories ... we'd have better products in all aspects of our lives. Other companies do the same thing, but because consumers are so price conscious you can create products that ignore the intangibles and still profit; in fact you can probably profit more that way. So it will never be the norm, but at the same time it's never a bad thing to have the choice.
The turn signal joke is just begging to be introduced to this car analogy.
The USB-C hate is transitional. It seems bad now. In 5 years, we'll look back and wonder at having so many different ports.
Just like when USB started and replaced the mouse port, and the keyboard port, and the serial port, and the parallel port, and the game port, and some other ports.
No question there, but transitional would be including at least a single USB-A port until there are a critical mass of USB-C peripherals, not pulling an Apple where they had no way to connect their flagship phone to their flagship laptop without a dongle.
And while I see the value in moving from USB-A to C, I'm not sure I see the value (to me, as an end user) in eliminating the ubiquitous headphone jack, or SD card reader.
Yes, I can buy dongled ones, but it's something else I have to re-buy for no perceptible gain.
Heh, ok, if you are in southern England, some of the issues i have with Aston Martin aren't quite as pronounced. That's probably one of the densest Aston Martin markets, and you aren't waiting for transatlantic shipping for every little part either. :)
Hey Youngster: sorry, but the user home directories still belong under /usr .
I'm not a great fan of Apple. I use Windows for the desktop, Linux for my personal server, but I use the iPhone as my portable device.
I like the iPhone because the product is consistent and reasonably durable, iOS is updated consistently for some time, and despite some of the hateful design changes, I don't have a great need for gadgets or dongles, so I can adjust to that. Each device I've run over three years before moving to a new device. The OS remains rather consistent, and based on my demands, I haven't had performance issues with my Apple devices.
I've had two different Android tablets, and each had 1-2 os updates before they were abandoned by the manufacturer, each left with stuttering video and other performance issues. Both were disappointments, and don't need to risk buying something I'll hate every day.
I've been satisfied with the iPhone in the long term, so I'll stay with it.
Simon Sinek says it better than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
-- Senior Software Engineer, Attorney appearance services, locallawyerapp.com.
I can't say I remember that day.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Having limited means I could only afford Fords and Chevrolets. My son being a corporate lawyer felt the need to buy a BMW. That car spent as much time in the shop as in his drive way. It guzzled premium gasoline and the AC couldn't keep up with the Florida heat. One day the dash lit up with a symbol of a car up on jacks. He rolled into a Ford dealership and left in Focus SE. Better gas mileage, dependable and roomy.
I did drive it on a short trip. Yes, it was quick and maneuverable but had a tricky gear shift. I went to pull away from a stop sign onto a main highway and couldn't because I had it in third gear. Multiple tries to find first resulted in reverse or third. When I finally got it in first I almost pulled out without looking for traffic again. That and the whole time my wife was complaining about being hot.
The same with computers and cellphones. Windows computers and Android phones are much more affordable and give me good service. No need to try Apple devices.
My iPhone 6 is still really good. I just sold my iPad 3 and I'm going to buy one of the new (cheap) iPads. I have a Mac, but I almost never use it anymore. My iPhone 4 lasted 4 years before I replaced it.
More than 'just working', which is true in some areas and not in others, Apple products LAST. They keep working a lot longer than they have any right to. I upgrade my devices when I want to. Even models that aren't getting updates anymore still work. I have an iPhone 4 at home and it still plays music perfectly fine.
I like things that work and that keep working. When I have trouble I walk into an Apple store and they talk to me and work things out. I've had precious few times where I needed to do this, but I have, and it's great. I can't imagine trying to take a phone back to my mobile carrier. They're terrible at basically everything, I can't imagine the unbelievable hassle of trying to return a possibly busted phone under warranty.
Apple is good at those details.
and good design - simple is hard, and theyve worked really hard to make something that is perhaps more beautiful than it needs to be, but in a way that every functional component is at once also aesthetic - they have done to the computer what mies van der rohe did for buildings and architecture.
some people appreciate that care and attention to detail - carrying through the consequences of simplification even into every component - so that all the parts work well together by design. for some, that can be extremely satisfying. to use a product for a while, and then stumble on a feature where you go, 'wow.. they thought of that too..!' - you can feel the passion that went into the denign of the product, and its meticulous execution.
oto, could care less, they live more mundane lives, technology devoid of art.
2cents from toronto island
john p
You're hilarious. I've specifically stated, repeatedly, that you can't compare cheap PCs to Apples. You even state you're talking about sub-$1000 PCs.
Well if you want to do it your way then you're right. If you compare a calculator to a Laptop then yes, it's worse.
But if you want to compare an Apple to a PC with similar specs then you'll just have to live with being wrong.
2. They know how to keep it functional.
3. They know how to charge a fortune.
4. They know how to keep customers coming back for more.
Regarding Number 1.
The Mac Book Pro is truly an engineering marvel. It set the bar back in 2013 and still is going strong five years later. Their was plenty of hype however I come from a PC assembly background so I know the computing industry and what it offers. I almost bought a second MBP and locked it in amber as a future piece of history. We could look back and say this is when a company called Apple set the bar for laptops and their future. When they showed what a labour of love can deliver. It is a testament that many people are still using the machine from five years ago. It is only a shame we havent really had an upgrade to match the needs of today. It will come but their taking their time. Today we see many machines with the same attention to detail but thats because Apple showed us all what can be truly done with the resources and the motivation to do it. It really surprises me that MBP is still not a strong seller for them, but thats mainly due to price.... and at the moment, featureset.
Regarding Number 2.
Even when they had a love affair with design they made sure the piece of kit that ended up in your hands was highly functional. They didn't severely change the dynamic just refined it. They continued the superb UI design and worked hard on introducing more interactivity based on the constantly evolving world around them. In fact they were often a sea of interface stability in the upheavals and tectonic shifts in the industry from windows 7 through to 10.
Regarding Number 3.
They cost a lot. While I didnt mind the price tag three years ago what has shocked me is the price tag now for something that is quite similar to what we had then. This is the first time I am looking at alternatives. The $5,000 pricetag for a laptop is just too much. I refuse to spend that much on a machine. That is what it would cost to replace what I have in my hands now. While I dearly enjoy their love for athetics and design purity their comes a point where I am going to say this is just too expensive.
Regarding Number 4.
One reason why I have an Apple ecosystem is their support. With the iPhone's, and Apple Airport Extreme Router who's wireless kicks ass, multiple iPad's and an iMac for the wife. I can arrange an appointment, walk into their store and the first person I have to talk to is the guy checking I have an appt. Then I just sit and wait for my engineer to look at my stuff and we discuss the problem. Try that with anyone else. Apple's retails stores are a support haven. Their peole are knowledgable and if they can't help you they will escalate to someone who can. I have found this is something no-one else can do as well. No one has this kind of amazing warranty support. I have had phones and parts replaced out of warranty. Not always mind you but their support is excellent. This is the main reason I am pro Apple. Their company has a support mantra that is second to none.
I had a Pocket PC 2000 OS phone back in the day, and loved it.
It could do stuff that today's iPhone still can't do.
However, it was slow and buggy as hell. One of the reasons is that it behaved like a Windows PC, and I could do whatever the hell I wanted. My ringtones, per contact, would change depending on where I was and what I was doing, silencing was controlled by my calendar and location as well.
Then, one day I needed to make a call for work, and my phone was BRICKED.
I realized I had a laptop I could fuck around with, but in the end, I wanted my phone to JUST WORK.
Once I got an iPhone 3GS, I was hooked. Sure, it was limited, but I was able to talk, text and email all the time, every time, and it didn't crash once. I also never jailbroke it. I've never seen the point to doing that with Apple products. If I wanted to fuck around with my phone, I'd have an Android. They are obviously more flexible, but they're also less stable, from what I've seen.
This is also why I don't use my own Linux homebrew box for a DVD player. All disk players on the market today are basically little Linux computers that are heavily locked down. They restrict your choices, and that makes them more stable.
I like the App Store model *for my phone*, and I like knowing there is only so much an app can fuck with on my OS.
Now, for my computer that I do work on, I want none of this. But for something that I value reliability over functionality, Apple's handheld devices (iPhone, Watch, iPad) work very well for me.
Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
Modern automatics are really fucking good. I'm not even talking about fancy double-clutch gearboxes, I'm talking about good old torque converter "slushboxes". You really should try driving a car with a ZF 8-speed automatic. It's amazingly good.
Eat the rich.
My favorite example to answer this question is when laptops first became popular, and operating systems became aware of battery levels, both Windows and Mac OS had helpful dialogs that popped up to say something like "Your computer is about to shut down."
On a Mac, if you then plugged in the power cord, the dialog automatically dismissed itself because it was no longer relevant. On Windows, even though you just plugged it in, you had to hit the cancel button.
Now this one example isn't likely to change your mind about Windows vs. Mac, but it was one example of HUNDREDS that you would encounter with Mac products. They had a polish and a "wow that really makes sense" that just wasn't there with Windows.
Both operating systems were capable of roughly the same thing, but IMHO a Mac did it with greater thoughtfulness and ease-of-use.
This has been a long-standing "argument" that on quick-glance was accepted by most as true without thinking about it.
[NOTE: I'm addressing more of the historical argument here. Haven't looked at this in a long time. So don't know about the current state, nor do I really care. Computers have changed quite a lot (how many manufacturers still stand? SEE: Next paragraph) and I think Apple has too. So this is more informational to counter the presumptive "truth" that has been perpetuated.]
People would point to the sticker price of a Mac and compare it to a Gateway/e-Machines/Compaq/Etc, and use that as proof that Macs were overpriced.
But that ignored a few key issues.
Anytime a friend tried to make that argument, I would take their choice of new PC to purchase and find the comparable Mac (as best as could be found). Sure enough, the Mac had the higher price point... until... one started looking at what one actually got for their money.
Keep in mind that a lot of things came standard on Macs LOOOOOONG before they were on PCs. Ethernet? On board. (Ignoring things like the fact that networking was included in Macs going back to... the SE? Plus?? Okay, it was AppleTalk, but every single Mac had networking back long before most people knew what a network was.) Sound, in and/or out? On board. (every PC user I knew had to buy SoundBlaster cards. I don't even know if any sound cards were made back then for Macs, outside of specialty/pro set-ups, as there was no need for them.) Etc. Etc.
Just two examples. And old examples, but I deliberately picked those as two things that we cannot imagine NOT getting in a computer today. (Didn't want to get mired in a discussion about some of the newer tech that may or may not stand the test of time.)
There was a lot of technology in Mac users hands long before it was common enough to hit a critical threshold of usefulness for PC users. This not only made the Macs more useful, but opened up a whole host of options to users.
And adding these things to your PC added to the cost, and more often than not, by the time they are brought to parity, the PC wound up costing more.
Which leads to a second point: Quality.
The PC world was fighting itself in a race to the bottom. PC users wanted cheap. And they usually got it in both senses of the word.
Going back to the ethernet example, I remember trying to get one of my Windows boxes set up on the house LAN with all of the other computers. (I had Macs, Windows, and BSD machines, but I'm only comparing the first two, as they are more "consumer".) I went down to the PC Club and got myself a cheap NIC. And then spent WAAAAAY too many hours trying to get it to work. It was a challenge but back then I didn't really think about the cost of my time as "the game was afoot!"
And then, cheap hardware was cheap, but no one really factored in failure or intermittent problems after purchase or even just set-up issues/conflicts as part of the cost of ownership.
But even buying more expensive hardware wasn't guaranteed to work better or not fail. And, of course, this just makes the "cheap PC" less of a bargain and drives the total price even higher.
Macs (in general) used higher quality parts, and those were just included in the price.
So, the "more expensive" Mac, in just about every case, wound up being less expensive than a PC.
Now I mentioned this was more of an historical disabusement of something that was oft just accepted as truth without question. I'd be pressed to think of the last time I did a comparison like this.
Fact is, the world of consumer computers has changed quite a lot. The computer has just become a commodity. Most are used our of the box as is. People buy a computer like it is a toaster... an IoT toaster with 800 features and its own twitter account. I think, outside of servers, very few even come with expansion slots. (Computers. But also toasters.) Most people are content with everything built-in to their laptop, and might have room for a bit m
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Once: you're a philosopher. Twice: a pervert.
If compared to women:
Apple is that stylish chic majoring in Art. As long as you're free with your wallet, she's a reliable and easy date, a lot of fun, and can be serious in some limited areas. You're not a sports coach, so you don't care about stats showing that she can't sprint as fast as the next woman. She's fast where it matters. She reliably shows up seconds after you phone her and she rarely complains. Having her on your arm impresses others. Until she has a breakdown. It's a total breakdown that requires an appointment with this genious shrink at the same shopping mall where you first met her.
Windows is the controlling and demanding wife that your co-workers want you to stick with. You married her because it was expected of you. Giving her your wallet seems to make things better. She pretends to like your female acquaintances and embraces them, looking predatory as she does so. After a few years they mysteriously vanish from the scene and your wife seems to have picked up some of their habits. Your wife is familiar to you. That's gotta count for something, right? You're adjusting to her constant false alarms, nagging to upgrade the furniture and regularly renew your marriage vows. Then she comes back from the beauty shop with a complicated hairdo and strange makeover she expects you to like. Don't like it? Tough! It's because you're some kind of TROGLODYTE with a strange fetish for "classic" looks. You suspect she's trying to evolve her look to be more like that fun liberal arts major you're tempted to have a fling with.
Linux is that attractive, dark-haired woman from South America that barely speaks your native language. The easily-intimidated like to look at her, but don't bother to ask her out. She's a bit mysterious, even strange. She seems more comfortable living without the limitations of clothes, or even "style." She seems simultaneously young and ancient. For you, she is willing to put on many different styles to make shallow people like you comfortable. Just pick a look that is a good compromise between pretty and functional. Her hairdo is old-world classic, long and straight. Money doesn't seem to impress her, but you have to invest time in finding just the right words to woo her. You had to learn the right words to even get your first date with her. She respects your funds and your privacy. On your first date, you notice she doesn't constantly demand your attention, your wallet or paw through your contact list then send your information to her mother. You've learned that if you ignore her for a long time, she doesn't get tired, impatient or shut down. She merely blinks and waits patiently for your command...in the language she knows well and you're still trying to master. She is always compliant. Despite all this, something about her says "very dangerous." Maybe it's that she rarely questions what you say, she just does it. You sense that if you placed a loaded revolver on the table and suggested a game of Russian Roulette, there's a possibility she might ask "Are you sure?" but once you said "yes," she'd be pulling the trigger. One time, at the dinner table, she starting placing down items in front of you: A brake rotor, brake pad, hydrualic fluid...and you interrupt her. "What is this stuff?" you ask. She says "You asked me to give you a brake. Did you not want one?" You comment that she's not intuitive. She ought to come with a manual. She replies that, in her case, she does in fact, come with one...you just need to Read The Fine Manual. (RTFM) You pick it up, flip to a random page and notice it's in the same language that she thoroughly understands and you're still trying to master. Years into the relationship, you ask her to marry you. Let's get a marriage license. She looks at you strangely and says she already gives freely of herself asks why you need a piece of paper to feel legitimate. You sense you said something horribly wrong and update the manual as a warning to others. You learn of a young man that keeps saying the wrong words to his own woman. Now a veteran at this, you irritably tell the stupid noob to "Read The Fine Manual" ...and then it dawns on you... You've become one of "them."
Well, that's not entirely true. If you want to work on your own Beamer, be prepared to either buy a lot of custom BMW tools or make some yourself. A normal socket won't fit most of their bolt, as they're in places where the thickness of the socket won't allow your to get in there. You can either find super thin sockets, maybe buy something from a BMW dealer, or take a regular socket set to a grinding wheel. There're not easy to work on. They expect you to go to the dealer for even the little things like oil changes and wiper blades. Mine is just an older one so it provides me with a tad more flexibility.
As for Exchange. . .I'm glad I don't currently work in an environment that shackles me to it. Even if I did, I'd still use a Mac at home. Just like if I were a trucker I'd still drive my BMW for personal use, not the semi.
"From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
I went to pull away from a stop sign onto a main highway and couldn't because I had it in third gear. Multiple tries to find first resulted in reverse or third. When I finally got it in first I almost pulled out without looking for traffic again.
I pray that I'll never be your passenger.
Seriously, though, his experience sounds extremely atypical. Regardless, you're a clear example of the majority. Most products are available in multiple tiers and the highest volume of sales will likely go to the lower tiers. Wal-Mart probably sells more screwdrivers than Snap-On, for example, but people who really care about their tools tend to buy Snap-On. People who just want a screwdriver that works at the lowest price will likely go to Wal-Mart (and then, of course, there's people who want something in the middle such as Craftsman, Kobalt, etc.). Most people don't drive Beamers just like most people don't use Macs.
It's just unfortunate that in the computer market there are only two major options. I mean, using Windows is like driving a Kia. Focuses are pretty nice—I'm actually considering getting an ST or RS—but that tier doesn't exist in the computer market. Sure, you can make PCs go real fast and take you wherever you need to go, but they always handle like shit and are no fun to drive.
"From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
It was probably because you bought cheap-ass crappy PC laptops. Try a Thinkpad, Elitebook or Inspiron/XPS. Completely different level of quality to the average Acer, Asus and so on.
Eat the rich.
As for Exchange, I found out about how lacking support for it is on Macs because a group of Mac users in my company wanted a bunch of shared resources setup. The sorts of features that only exist on proprietary email platforms like Exchange or business Gmail, so I don't know if "shackled" is the right term. Large businesses need those features, which is why I found the lack of support for them on Apple's side to be so disappointing. To be fair, I was appalled by the number of Microsoft apps for iOS that were needed to get everything working on iPhones. What could have been done with one instead needed two or three. Ick. But everything could be made to work, so it could have been made to work on Macs, but hasn't been so Microsoft shares the blame.