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Quake 1 GPL'ed
WarSpite was the first of many to write with the news that id has open-sourced the Quake 1 Source Code. This includes WinQuake, GLQuake, QuakeWorld, and GLQuakeWorld. Yes, it's been released under the GPL [?] . id's ftp site got the goods.
A new and better way to kill processes in your system!
I'm glad that id open sources their games when they have no "value" (read: ability to be sold) anymore.
Go id!
This is sweet. I'm just starting to get the whole "programming" thing into gear, and id gives me everything I need! Thanks tons for the early Christmas gift, Id!
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth."
-Henrik Ib
I think Ill buy a copy of QuakeIII just cause they opened up Quake1. Good of ID to see that they arent going to make any real money from selling quake1 and the best thing to do was to open it and make the world a better place. I wonder what new games will come from the engine.
As a student in Computer Science, it's nice to know that we can begin to learn from some well-known games.
I'm sure there are many other students who are beginning to develop games and would like some form of hint in where to start. Well.. now they have a place.
Thanks ID.
Personally I'm not a games person, and I don't have much interest in programming games (I'm more of an OS and server person), but that won't stop me from taking a look at the source to see what I can find.
ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/sou rce/q1source.zip ftp.cdrom.com/pub/idgam es/idstuff/source/q1source.zip ftp.3 dgamers.com/pub/3daction/00archives/quake/unsuppor ted/q1source.zip ftp2 .3dgamers.com/pub/3daction/00archives/quake/unsupp orted/q1source.zip
Does anyone know where I can find info and the tools/compilers to mess around with this?
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth."
-Henrik Ib
Will this have any impact for mods such as generations? Is artwork, levels, models etc still considerd to be property of the publisher? It would be nice to see some of the oldy and goody quake1 maps ported to q3 without any legal hangups. We're all in search of the perfect game when it comes to that, and I'd love to have at it on e1m7 with all the new tech of q3.
Wasn't Halflife based off a modified Quake 1 engine. Half-life shows that the engine can indeed be used to make specatular games. I've always wished Rainbow Six, Rouge Spear, etc used the Quake engine for multiplayer-- maybe now companies can provide decent multiplayer linux servers for all their FPS games! yay!
While its slow to happen, the ability of individuals to freely develop 3d games and apps is increasing. A while back Chex had a doom-based cd-rom game on their site, and they had to pay for it.
But the GPLing allows anyone with a slight bit of graphics talent to build their own independant game.
And with Quake now open source, enhancments can be added easier, I.E. the loveable PAIN package (I loved web-swinging like spiderman with the grappling hook and harpoon.)
Think of the possibilities.
XBill 3D would be cool.
Ever seen that episode of the new Jonny Quest where they delete data by shooting it? Make directories into rooms, etc.
And yes, the process killer will have to be ported too.
We could easily have selectable 'levels' signifying file management, process managment, wiping windows, network sniffing, and more!
That's all I want to go on about for now. Hey everyone, please vote for geek number 1 (me!) in the after y2k ( www.nitrozac.com ) look-a-like contest.
...but I wonder if part of their motivation
for doing this is to increase the number of
coders familiar with 3D engines. Seeding the
future labor pool so to speak. But then again...
maybe it's just because they're good guys(and gals).
This great news for every multi-OS quaker out there, but how will this effect the Mac port?
macsoft took time and money to do thier codin, and i really doubt they'll gpl THAT.
Anyone know more then me?
---
or the file itself: /idgames/idstuff/source/q1source.zip
ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
... but a modified quake 2.
- sigs are for wimps.
Oh well. They only need to sell 2 million copies to recoup their development costs, as Todd Porter told us about six months ago.
- Butcher
First one to port it to OpenVMS gets extra credit points.
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
I suppose you could say this is building good-will within the free software community without costing them anymore revenue, and that would be completely true, but this decision is even smarter than just that.
The way to get hired by a computer gaming company is to "show them the source" -- in particular, demonstrate that you can write cool games. By GPL'ing Quake I, id Software is increasing their pool of potential employees to include those who can develop a good 3D game if only they had a good 3D engine that's less than four years old.
Christopher A. Bohn
cb
Oooh! What does this button do!?
There is an error in the title here though: it's only the source that's been GPL'd. The artwork and such are still the intellectual property of ID
On another note, Mr Claus, if you know who's been naughty and who's been nice, could you give me a copy of the list of naughty girls? Many thanks.
---
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Book(n): Utensil used to pass time while waiting for the TV repairman
I think I will have to buy QuakeIII now just to support a company that is so cool. Doh, Guess I'll have to get a Voodoo3 as well. Come to think of it, this GPL announcement just cost me over 100 bucks.
Have you checked out Zoid.com yet? Zoid.com
Producing a mac version of glquake or glquakeworld should be pretty easy with the existing code now that Apple has real OpenGL support.
Producing a version of the software renderer with decent performance would be VERY HARD. A huge amount of effort went into the assembly optimization for the PPC, and it still didn't quite measure up to the x86 code.
John Carmack
include any of the many TCs (and the ones to follow, id kicks ass)
This code was worth, what, $10 million 4 years ago? An interesting point in the discussion of determining the "value" of software.
+&x
This is why it's so important to (1) indent properly, (2) use meaningful variable names, and (3) provide adequate comments.
You never know when when your code will be GPL'd and then everyone will know what kind of programmer you really are!
Honesty. Loyalty. Kindness. Laughter. Generosity. Magic!
Valve originally licensed the source for Quake from id Software and they began working on that code around October of 1996. Between that time and the time they finished Half-Life in October of 1998, they modified/removed/created something like 70% of the code. --Taken from the Official FAQ
I see a lot of people already complaining that iD has only released Quake because it wasn't making them money anymore. I find such comments absolutely rude and uncalled-for, iD is doing the open source communitiy a wonderful favor by releasing their code under the GPL. Why don't we concentrate instead on the possibilities opened by this code release...
Now that a fully 3-D rendering engine, which supports 3-D acceleration is available under the GPL, I can only hope that a few aspiring programmers can take all of that code and begin development on some true Virtual Reality software. With high speed access such as cable and dsl becoming available in more and more areas, such an environment is truly becoming feasible.
The way that I see it, all that really needed is a large amount of artwork and new networking code. Imagine that each MetaQuake server is a node in the metaverse, each server acting as either a room, a building, or an entire city (based on available bandwidth), where people logged into one server can interact with one another directly, but you use a "subway" system to transfer your information *between* servers, allowing you to enter new buildings, cities, etc. If all of the servers were interconnected similar to the way the internet itself is connected, it could work. There could even be sub-programs written into the engine in which you can pick up a virtual pay phone, and video conference with someone on another server (or not logged in at all) via a direct connection.
I think that the Quake codebase would certainly be an excellent start, but it's more likely that Quake2 or even Quake3 would act as a better environment to do such programming in. I know that Quake1 modules had to be written in "QuakeC" whereas Quake2 modules could be written in full-blown C, which in my opionion would be better suited to the "videophone applet" or other such modifications. Also, the original Quake networking code wasn't so hot (hence the need for QuakeWorld) whereas Quake2 was much better about it, and Quake3 was actually *designed* for online-only usage.
Perhaps if a small band of programmers started messing around with this sort of stuff right now, we'd all be ready to take advantage of more advanced engines, such as the Quake2 and Quake3 engines one they become available (which they most likely will, the way that iD has been doing things -- Thanks guys!)
Can anyone speak from experience if/how well models and skins, and/or maps created for Quake1 can be ported into Quake2 or Quake3? Is there anyway that level designs for a "metaverse" could be later re-used should iD be so gracious as to release the source to their more recent engines?
--Steven M. Castellotti
Your Brain + EEG + LEGO Robots = Brainstorms
If you're just starting to get the whole "programming" thing into gear, then the Quake engine is not the place to start.
Don't get me wrong, the Quake engine being GPL'd is a great thing, and I applaud Id for it. However, 3D-engines are not a good thing to cut your teeth on. Start small. Code a few 2-D games first (my guess is that you're into game programming). Tetris clones and platformers are always popular (heck, my first game was a taste-challenged Barney-killing simulator back in my high schools Pascal class). Then move on to grander things. You can't build a tool shed in the backyard and then move on to a castle right away. It's the same with coding.
The only upside is that I know where I can find beta-testers.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
>id Software is increasing their pool of potential employees to include those who can develop a good 3D game
:)
I'm not too sure about this. I would want an employee which can come up with something new, not just copy an old way of doing something. Likewise, I don't think that Microsoft will release the code for Office just to increase the employee supply.
I would like to think that Carmack is just doing that annoying "nice guy, give back to the programming/gaming community which I have learned/benifited so much from" thingy.
Bah-humbug to you John Carmack.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Sourceforge would be a great place to host a big quake coding project, free web/ftp/cvs/email-lists and more. Its cool :)
Welcome to life. Good and bad come in equal measure, whether you like it or not.
ufdraco
Formerly proprietary good, now free.
Benefits to ID:
1) Train new 3d-game developers on their code
2) Reap PR benefits of joining the Open Source movement
3) Savings from attempting to protect their rights in their code.
Liabilities to ID:
1) Lowers startup cost for interested outside parties.
Actually, if it weren't for Id, I probably wouldn't be a game programmer at all. I've always had several programming geek buddies, and thought that games were cool. However all I ever worked on before Id released Doom's source, was lame space invaders clones. I've gotta say that Doom was a great thing to cut my teeth on. If you haven't already, you might want to look at that before you dive into Quake.
Currently I'm toying with the idea of rewriting the graphics code for Decent II, which was also recently released (albeit, not GPL). Unfortunately, only having experience with Id stuff, I don't know much Direct3D. Do any of you know of a good online reference?
I'm a gnu world man.
That should be www.westlakeinteractive.com. Sorry about the mixup.
A project is more than just a CVS server. It needs direction (usually), leadership (of some sort) and demand from developers. I'm sure interested parties will do something.
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
In quakedef.h :
// This makes anyone on id's net privileged
// Use for multiplayer testing only - VERY dangerous!!!
// #define IDGODS
Hmm... sounds interesting to me...
RICHARD STALLMAN IS MISSING
Open Source Superstar "Nowhere To Be Found," Report Police
CAMBRIDGE, MA (AP) - Richard M. Stallman, better known as "RMS" by the open source software (OSS) community, has apparently vanished off the face of the planet. After missing several speaking appointments and coding commitments, many of his fans have begun to ask questions about his whereabouts. Stallman is the founder of the GNU project, which is dedicated to providing free, open source software to the computing world.
Eunice Bleyfeld, Stallman's neighbor, seemed surprised by Stallman's absence. "I hadn't noticed anything out of the ordinary," she commented to the Associated Press. "He wasn't acting strangely or anything like that the last time that I saw him." However, Mrs. Bleyfeld recounted a strange incident that took place in the middle of the night a few days ago. "I woke up and heard what sounded like an altercation at Mr. Stallman's," she said. "He shouted something like 'I'll frag your ass.' Minutes later, I heard him yell something to the effect of 'Eat my pineapple, bitch!'"
Police psychologists were puzzled by Stallman's alleged ravings. In the meantime, Stallman's apartment door remains locked and phone calls are greeted with a constant busy signal. "We think the phone must have gotten knocked off the hook," explained Cambridge police chief Samuel Breckenridge. "That explains the busy signals. Beyond that, we're not quite sure what to do," continued Breckenridge. "The guy is quite literally nowhere to be found. We're sure that he's not at home, because if he was, you'd think that he would answer the door."
Police have placed Stallman's picture on the side of cartons of CD-Rs and DIMMs nationwide, along with the caption "Have You Seen This Coder?" The hope is that somebody will recognize the missing open source icon and report a sighting to the authorities.
Stallman is famous for his refusal to use anything except free software. In particular, Stallman is a fan of his GPL license, which provides for unrestricted modification and distribution of software.
John Carmack contributed to this story.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
Hopefully some[one|people] will have a chance to port quakeworld to irix now . . .
Of course, what I'd really like is a release of Q3 for Irix, but you can't be picky.
Yes, and he's posted here before. This is /., and it's no big deal.
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
You better make gibs, you better get frags
You better shoot grunts, zombies and scrags
Santa Carmack G-P... L'd Quake
He's written some code, debugged it all twice
Then made it all free, isn't that nice
Santa Carmack G-P... L'd Quake
He knows when you've been fragging
He knows when you've got quad
He knows when you've just rocket jumped
'Cause Carmack is Quake God
So don't you be lame, don't you not play
Join a net game, I'll frag you today
Santa Carmack G-P... L'd Quake
Does it bother anyone else to see GPL used as a sort of "Goodwill" for software? We also saw this recently with the GPL release of a pretty old version of mySQL.
Don't get me wrong -- it is awesome to have Quake (probably my favorite computer game ever) available in source form. And at least the 'commercial for three years, then GPL' plan has a shorter lifespan than a software patent. But it would be nice to see some commitment (from more than one company) on more current projects. I don't think this is really the point of the GPL.
...putting out the design documentation would be even better :) As someone who's spent quite a bit of time trying to extend an open source project with little or no docs, I can attest to the fact that availablity of the source code is only half the problem - understanding it is the other half.
With a system so complex and presumably huge as Quake, knowing where to start is going to be quite a challenge (and I don't mean at main(argc, argv)!) A little background knowledge would go a VERY long way - how about it JC?
huge props to id though - leading the industry by example once again.
Your compiler should provide an option to just run the pre-processor on the gas source, which should output a file with all # constructs removed. Maybe GAS2MASM might work on that file.
Didn't Quake1 also have a security back-door? I wonder if it's still in the source or if they took it out.
Is there any way we can get folks like John Carmack to have instant karma so that in cases like this, their posts get scored way up automatically? Granted, not everyone deserves it, but people on the level of JohnC or Linus (though I doubt he'd post much here) would be writing stuff worthy of high moderation - why waste moderation points?
crack dot com, www.crack.com, was cracked and the Quake 1 source was stolen. I have it on Archive CD somewhere. It would be interesting to see the differences from the stolen and the released sources.
-Tom
This kind of makes me mad. You can't expect them
to change their model, at this point in the game,
so quickly. Be glad that one of the premeire developers on the planet is sharing a bit of his mind with all of us. This is fantastic..to say the least.
Take this code and learn from it instead of being a bunch of babies.
This code was worth, what, $10 million 4 years ago?
But now this code is priceless. And it is no longer stagnant; It may grow into what? The greatest game engine of all in the end, just as Linux grew from something simple to something incredible.
This is the complete source code for winquake, glquake, quakeworld, and
glquakeworld.
The projects have been tested with visual C++ 6.0, but masm is also required
to build the assembly language files. It is possible to change a #define and
build with only C code, but the software rendering versions lose almost half
its speed. The OpenGL versions will not be effected very much. The
gas2masm tool was created to allow us to use the same source for the dos,
linux, and windows versions, but I don't really recommend anyone mess
with the asm code.
The original dos version of Quake should also be buildable from these
sources, but we didn't bother trying.
The code is all licensed under the terms of the GPL (gnu public license).
You should read the entire license, but the gist of it is that you can do
anything you want with the code, including sell your new version. The catch
is that if you distribute new binary versions, you are required to make the
entire source code available for free to everyone.
Our previous code releases have been under licenses that preclude
commercial exploitation, but have no clause forcing sharing of source code.
There have been some unfortunate losses to the community as a result of
mod teams keeping their sources closed (and sometimes losing them). If
you are going to publicly release modified versions of this code, you must
also make source code available. I would encourage teams to even go a step
farther and investigate using public CVS servers for development where
possible.
The primary intent of this release is for entertainment and educational
purposes, but the GPL does allow commercial exploitation if you obey the
full license. If you want to do something commercial and you just can't bear
to have your source changes released, we could still negotiate a separate
license agreement (for $$$), but I would encourage you to just live with the
GPL.
All of the Quake data files remain copyrighted and licensed under the
original terms, so you cannot redistribute data from the original game, but if
you do a true total conversion, you can create a standalone game based on
this code.
I will see about having the license changed on the shareware episode of
quake to allow it to be duplicated more freely (for linux distributions, for
example), but I can't give a timeframe for it. You can still download one of
the original quake demos and use that data with the code, but there are
restrictions on the redistribution of the demo data.
If you never actually bought a complete version of Quake, you might want
to rummage around in a local software bargain bin for one of the originals,
or perhaps find a copy of the "Quake: the offering" boxed set with both
mission packs.
Thanks to Dave "Zoid" Kirsh and Robert Duffy for doing the grunt work of
building this release.
John Carmack
Id Software
Your Brain + EEG + LEGO Robots = Brainstorms
When id started work on quake3 they completely scrapped the quake 2 source. They went all the way back to quake 1, mainly because the many of the quake 2 methods were not flexible enough to allow stuff they wanted to do in quake 3.
So although it may "have no value" to the normal person out there it is an extremely valuable source to any game developer or even just a hobbyist. Imagine what the Unreal team might have done if they'd had something like this to start on, instead of having to create their own engine from scratch. (Don't forget that the Unreal effects are comparable to q3a's effects right now!)
I think John Carmack is by far one of the most talented programmers in gaming (or perhaps anywhere else) today. This code release only confirms how cool he is, and possibly, what a good marketer he is as well. Consider the following:
Geeks love games.
Quake makes Id no more money.
Geeks respect John Carmack.
John Carmack GPL's Quake.
Geeks respect John Carmack and Id 10-fold.
Geeks watch Id more closely.
Id releases Quake III.
Geeks are more likely to buy Id products.
Id's profits go up.
Smart move, smart move...
Great, now if only someone (i am not competent) can build linuxquake linked against glibc, I no longer need to keep that damn libc5 thingy on my box.
Groovy, I like quake as much as the next man, but...
;(
I've always had a soft spot for Duke Nukem 3D, if only for the lightswitches and power sockets that are interactive...
I want my Duke source code
"..all that really needed is a large amount of artwork.." Um, yeah. I'll get right on it. One thing Open Source advocates often forget about game code is that only the /code/ has been GPLed. Even if id also released the original Q1 art, by today's standards it is dated at best. The creation of "large amounts of artwork" (I just have to laugh every time I read that) is far from trivial. Artists like myself like to get paid for their efforts and don't like their work getting passed around, occasionally being "defiled" by some well meaning person with MS Paint (This happens more than you'd think). Even with extra time on their hands (something artists don't have much of), why would we want to do art for Q1? It's not exactly portfolio material and hardly advances the state of technology (the premise of Open Source, as I see it). Basically, there's not much in it for us. Helping with a Q3A total conversion or recent game add-on is much more fruitful. The investment of time and effort (time is money AND experience) could be better spent elsewhere. Until there's some kind of incentive, it's going to be very hard finding artists for this kind of project. It usually isn't wise to trivialize the art department (unfortunately something that feeds my stereotype of programmers not realizing how much work it really is), so just be aware. The pixel pushers are watching =)
What are some good introductory texts on game programming for Linux? By introductory, I mean tutorials that seek to teach technique, not how to code (I've been coding in C and C++ for almost ten years now).
Ye gods..
Data files are NOT code.
The GPL is also only enforced on the licensee, the licenser is free to GPL or not parts of the original code, if they do not themselves distribute them togeather.
For example, I could write a program that says, "Hello, world!" and also says "How are you?".
It would be my perogative to release only the "Hello, world!" function under GPL, and a version under a completely different license with both functions. I am the copyright holder for all the code, and can license it in all ways that I want..
Whatever codebase I merge other peoples GPL'd code into must all be opened, however, because I am not the copyright holder and cannot relicense the code.
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
I for one think that John Carmack is a good guy. So are the rest of the people at id.
If you are reffering to the Message of the day that appeared in Q3A - It was documented true, it did not appear in the documentation in one of the releases, and this was due to an oversight. John gratefully posted his error here on slashdot. It was a mistake.
It was id's intent that the message of the day be documented. This is why it was documented when it was first released. With the next release it did not make it into the documentation. Just an oversight, no need to be paranoid.
I mean, jeez, are we going to come down on Torvalds or Cox now if there is a BUG in their code? Sure their stuff is open sourced, and from what we can see here, id's is too (after some time of being closed). So there was a mistake. Yippe. It was both a miscommunication from id (on the documentaion) and ourselves, for not paying attention to the (I believe) 1.08 readme.
So can we please get over this "id is out to root us all! They are TR0j4|\| |-|4X0rz!!!" crap.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
1. Versions compiled for glibc20 and glibc21.
2. Support for 24 and 32 bpp modes in the X version.
3. Support for fbcon instead of the ancient svgalib.
4. Make the X version change resolution and center the screen before it grabs the mouse.
5. Use scroll-lock to grab the mouse, ungrab the mouse on pause.
6. Support for wheel mice.
7. Sound support using ALSA.
Maybe I'm missing something, but if Quake 1's source code is only just being released, then what's here?
http://bluesnews.g ameaholic.com/idgames.d/idstuff/quake2/source/
Now, the files look quite small, but what are they if not the Quake 2 source code?
Simon.Nope. We are the copyright holder of all works, and we can release any part of it under any license we choose.
Completely aside from that, I think it is still unclear exactly where the GPL wants the separation of code and content.
Few would argue that every document read by a GPL word processor would be covered by the GPL, and most would place maps entered by quake into that catagory, but things can quickly get murky.
Quake game mods are written in QC, but turned into data to be processed by the main code. I think the spirit of the GPL would want that code to be released, but it is only a small step from there to saying that every program loaded by a GPL operating system must be GPL, which is clearly not the case.
John Carmack
That's the source for the "game" code, the gamex86.dll or whatnot. The logic, if you will - entities, enemies, weapons, etc. This is the DLL (or .so) that you'd replace to play a mod such as CTF, Lithium, etc. It's NOT the rendering engine or anything else like that.
The bison thing was about code. This is about data.
Check out the whole thread started by post 146.
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
What vindictive licensing? It's the GPL, which is strangely enough perfect for games.
The great part of this situation is that you can create your own game, and sell it. The code is not what's valuable from a game point of view, it's the data files -- and those belong to YOU if you created them. Charge fifty bucks a CD, no problem...you just have to give people the source to the engine. Big deal, the engine is not the game -- it's just the interpreter that runs the game.
Yeehaw! Time to make SHAKE
~Jay (Negative Seven)
I don't care what anyone might say about id software, but releasing their code like this is simply one of the best things they have done for the graphics/games coding community. I, for one, am very (x 1000..) thankful. Thank you very much John Carmack and crew, such efforts are most appreciated. --e!- ---
-------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
Unix _is_ user friendly, it's just particular about who its friends
Are the level maps required to build a quake executable? No? Then they're not covered by the GPL.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
For Immediate Release
Garland, TX - In the age of free software releases, president of Apogee Software, Scott Miller, has just announced that he will release the source code for one of his most successful shareware title to date, The Adventures of Kroz.
"People only knows how to make 3D games today", said Miller. "By releasing The Adventures of Kroz to everyone, I hope to share the knowledge of moving ASCII characters around", he said.
We have been in contact with some very reliable sources from Apogee/3D Realms that there is already some groups working on an updated version of The Adventures of Kroz, supporting Direct3D, OpenGL, and Glide. "This will be an enormous contribution to the open source community", he said.
The Kroz series is one of the most successful of all times.
I have seen a lot of whining about quake1 data file here(an dumb arguement), but no one has addresed the issue of GPL'd quake1 + mods.
I believe quake1 doesn't directly link with mod code, but has a sort of c interpreter built in.
The mod code must then be parsed and run on that interpreter.
Is it legal to:
1) Use GPL'd quake1 with non-open mods?
2) Distribue quake1 with non-open mod code files?
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
I think you'de better read the GPL again. And this time have a dictionary handy. You've abviously completely misunderstood the viral qualities of the GPL.
*borkborkbork*
Linus isn't modifying the GPL. The GPL has always relied on copyright law. Copyright only affects derived works. If a kernel module doesn't include any GPL'ed kernel code, then it's not a derived work and is not subject to the GPL.
Now, this is Linus's interpretation of the GPL. But given that he's copyright holder #1, it's likely that his interpretation would hold in any court case. So whether Linus is right or not is really a moot point.
More to the point here, Linus isn't modifying the GPL, nor does he fail to understand or respect it.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Ditto!
(And please ignore the many Slashdot hair-splitters
and quibblers. These ijits, loud as they may be,
in no way represent the great majority of Linux
users who really appreciate gestures like yours.)
OK, now that the whole source code is released, I can forsee quite a few more bot problems. Would it be a good idea to implement another master server list that uses the "blessed binaries" system much like netrek does?
For those not familiar, anyone can get source and mess with their own code, but to play on most servers, you must use one of the binaries that are certified and contain an encrypted key. There would have to be a team that would spend time checking modified code for cheats.. Is this worthwhile, or should I get used to playing with more bot-enhanced lamerz?
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
"Golgotha seems to have dies (www.golgotha.com), but maybe it was becuase it didn't come with an OGL renderer."
:-)
I'm not closely involved with the Golgotha team, but I've downloaded the source a couple of times and been impressed by what they've produced. I note that you point to the wrong URL for the primary Golgotha home page: http://golgotha.opengames.org I also note that they updated the news section of the homepage just a few days ago, Dec 16th, so the project still looks quite active. I'm sure it was just a simple mistake, but a check on freshmeat would have given you the link: here's the Freshmeat Golgotha appindex entry.
I look forward to Golgotha's release eventual 1.0 release, and soon thereafter my enjoyment of the completed game.
Oh, dear... it looks like the censors forgot to go through this source. There are dirty words in there. My virgin eyes will never be the same!
;)
There should be a parental warning on this release. Imagine, a company like id teaching children to swear?? I should sue!
(it's good to see that other people bitch out their code every now and the
Well, John: how's this grab you? I never owned a copy of Quake1 (just Q2 and Q3), so i've just compiled all the binaries but i don't have any of the wad's!. So now I'm gonna go to the $10 rack at CompUSA and pick up a copy. So, by releasing the source code, you just *sold* another copy of Quake 1...........
Not going to say a word....
Or is this something specific I just haven't read/seen/grokked?
In terms of recreating reality, I'd much rather go through reality; learning how to fletch, rock climb, rollerblade, make swords, etc, than have an avatar do so. If the metaverse is about doing the impossible, then it isn't much more than a more advanced blending of video games, RPGs, and movies, I think. Life is hard enough, without retreating into an alternate reality to escape our own when our own is already so rich, so beautiful, so powerful.
Perhaps I'm just missing the point?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
know why seti@home and distributed.net don't release their source code? It is because the chance of people hacking the code and wrecking the system outway the benefits of letting people have access to the code. If people had the source code to a game currently played such as Q3, they could hack server source and allow hacked clients to connect. you would never know whether the server is legit or hacked. This could allow any number of cheats such as hacked maps, increased health, free powerups, etc. Lots of people LOVE to cheat at quake, and this would increase their ability to do so. The same issues hold true with the Q1 sourcecode, but at least the amount of people still playing that is lower, but do not fool yourself, there are still many people playing quake1, and this will adversely affect them. so like chill n' stuff ;)
Jacob Lehrbaum jacob@linuxdevices.com
ID just released the Quake 1 Source code. That may mean nothing to some of you, but I'd like to point a few things out.
I'm sure some of you are familiar with the GPL, while some may not be. The GPL is the license which most Linux or GNU software are released under. The whole principal behind this license is to guarantee that the GNU suite of software REMAIN open source. Once Open Source, always Open Source (sure, the maintainer may decide one day to take a later version off of the GPL, but the earlier versions would still be covered by the GPL). I won't get too technical here, I'm not a lawyer, but to further illustrate this point I'll quote the readme file that comes with the Quake1 Source code:
"The code is all licensed under the terms of the GPL (gnu public license). You should read the entire license, but the gist of it is that you can do anything you want with the code, including sell your new version. The catch is that if you distribute new binary versions, you are required to make the entire source code available for free to everyone."
That last sentence is what hurts us as a community. If you thought EQ had a bad effect on TF, well you ain't seen nothing yet.
Right now, as we speak, I'm 100% positive somebody out there is trying to compile a version of QuakeWorld with some special features to give him an advantage (cheating). It's inescapable now. Cheating is now easy and simple. No more hex editing or debugging binary code, no more proxies that use some flaws in the way the game works to give you an advantage. No, now people can create real cheats, powerful cheats, cheats we can't detect and they can do it easily. Wall hacks that work everywhere regardless of the map, real autoaim, workarounds for Concs and Gas grens. The possibilities are endless.
What really sucks, however, is that because Quake is now GPL, we can't create a special version, controlled by a 3rd party that we can all use and know that nobody out there is hacking it. They by virtue of the fact that Quake is now under the GPL are required to release any modifications they make for Quake to the general public, and guess what that means? There version will be just as easily hacked as regular quake. Not to even mention the logistics of getting a 3rd party working on the game, and getting everybody behind this one version of quake.
The ONLY possible solution is if somebody were to get special permission from ID software itself to release a version of Quake w/o having to release the code. I find this highly unlikely, however, the GPL has it's purpose and I am fully behind open sourcing Quake. There is a lot that can be learned from the game code, and it will benefit people far more this way.
TF has been on life support for a while now, but ID just pulled the plug. gg ID. gg TF. It's been fun. Time to move onto a new game however.
Dalroth
Formerly of
Dark Shadows
Formerly of
Predatorz
Formerly of
The ShaoLIN Brotherhood
Formerly of
The Ministry of Pain
Formerly of
Tempest
See you guys in UT and Quake 3.
=======
To further expound on that, some people have said that there are people out there who don't cheat, and the majority of players will continue to play honorable.
I do NOT disagree with that. You see, that's not the problem. It's the social implications that will arise as a result of this. You now know that the person on the other side of the internet has unlimited potential to cheat. Any time you get your ass reamed, you're going to be supicious, wether that person really cheated or not. The few people who do cheat, will cheat like bitches and will only further justify this suspicioun. Soon it'll grow to hostility as everybody distrusts everybody and the scene is torn apart at the seams. You say your clan will play honorable, you say your clan won't cheat. But how do you know player (X) isn't cheating? How do you know player (Y) isn't cheating? You WILL be suspicious. It's hard enough to NOT be suspicious as it is.
That is going to be our deathknell. We all saw how we reacted to eV. That was mild compared to what can happen with this one.
Dalroth
==========
If you REALLY care that much, the best thing you can do is send a nice pleasant email to them asking them to allow an exception for somebody to do a closed version of the game with the sole purpose of allowing the community to survive. Spamming them, threatening them, yelling at them and accusing them is the last thing in the world you need to do. That will only shut them off from teh community completely.
Personally, I think in the short run this really sucks. But indirectly, in the long run, what they have done by releasing the code will far outweigh the death of the Quake community. The projects that grow from teh quake source, and the knowlege people learn by using it and studying it will have an impact down the road, however indirectly it may be. I for one am thankfull ID did this. The game code will benefit me later in life (and boy do I ever intend on studying it and learning things work) than a few more months of TF will.
HendriX-uNF wrote:
> while some people might consider this as a ground
> braking present from ID, its also the death bell of
> the community that we played TF with. This move that
> ID just did was nothing more than to push people to
> play Quake 3, in other words they killed a community
> to create another one.
>
> I will never think in any way that John Carmack did
> not know this. He knew quite well that if he killed
> TF, he would gain unbelivable amounts of money while
> pushing people towards the Quake 3 scene. Although
> this "push" is not that obvious to some, to our TF
> community, its going to strike like lightning in the
> next couple of weeks.
>
> Thx ID for creating this community, no thanks for
> killing it.
>
> HendriX-uNF
>know why seti@home and distributed.net don't
>release their source code? It is because the chance
>of people hacking the code and wrecking the
>system outway the benefits of letting people have
>access to the code.
No.
It is one of the basic rules of producing a secure system that you assume that your code and model is and will be open for anybody to look at. You have to make it secure with this assumption. Things are too easy to reverse engineer for it to be worth your time pretending you have some sort of 'secret' approach.
Believe with me, my saplings.
Now that would be cool.
:)
someone needs to make an X window manager based on the quake engine giving a true OpenGL 3D desktop environment
For many years, in fact ever since I installed amitcp and learned how to Goraud-shade on my lil ol Amiga, I've been working on various implementations and designs for useful 3D interaction.
:)
/ ac3d.html) but it isn't open-source and I can't add stuff to output to formats I need or new features (script attachment, physics definitions etc)
:)
There are a number of people working on projects related to these goals, a short search of freshmeat will reveal a good percentage of them. I have my own code, and I'm sure a fair number of programmers out there have code on this particular ideal at one stage or another.
From all this time, heres some insights I'd like to share:
1. OpenGL. Bloody genius. Made my life a hell of a lot easier. Trying to work out complex network protocols as well as keep up with the latest high-speed rendering techniques and maintaining some semblence of cross-platform code was impossible.
2. Linux. While I'm sure many won't agree, and they're welcome to their opinion, the sheer accessibility of Linux' networking and system functions has made things a lot easier. gcc and Mesa don't hurt
3. Libraries. Lots of them have been useful at one point or another in my planning, specifically Mesa and linuxthreads, and less specifically all the people (Including the GNU guys and various universities) writing embedded language libs (see below)
We are out of the chaos of bandwidth limitations and CPU limitations that hampered me when I first tried this kind of thing. It wasn't possible to draw much more than 30 triangles/sec without using assembler, and only the very best of the demo scene were doing anything decent in 3D. Now days 20 lines of C will get you a fully lighted, spinning cube with textures, in realtime, and not a hell of a lot more will get you a landscape engine, a model loader and some physics.
Bandwidth as well, is not as bad is as maintained. You don't need the kind of bandwidth necessary to keep every object and every user in sync, even in big-visibility situations. The simple rule is to only have to sync those items controlled by a human, we're the only unpredictable ones.
The inclusion of embedded languages allows every object, even those appearing to behave in a random fashion, to be deterministic. At this point, we have the CPU to manage such interactions and processing, and we have more than enough bandwidth available to maintain the state of all the humans, even in a fairly busy scene.
Obviously I'm glossing over some details, latency being the biggy, and if I knew how to solve 'em all I'd be busy writing the damn thing, but I think that the point is more not whether its possible, but what the hell are we to do with it should we make it?
As many have pointed out, and I agree, creating 3D chat is worthless. IRC is a far more effective medium for such things, and without VR headgear and voice transmission, the 3D would just get in the way. On the other hand, 3D collaborative environments are already here, at the high end with people like SGI etc. They've found good uses for them, collaborative visual design etc, and such things could scale down nicely into internet applications.
The one closest to my heart is mapping systems to visual entities, essentially expert-system style bots that control networking and monitoring on machines on a network. Here the bandwidth and latency issues disappear (100mbs is pretty common) and the visual mapping is effective (a single-glance can convey the status of the network).
There are many other similar concepts which certainly deserve investigation, so I say unto you programmers out there, busy conjouring up RPG worlds the net can access:
"Not yet. But that don't mean there aint some good stuff to do".
And to those who haven't tried it yet, get your teeth into OpenGL, it rocks.
Tools I believe we need before an Open Source effort can be truely effective:
1. A good, open source, 3d modeller. I love AC3D (http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/computing/users/andy
2. A platform independant, embeddable, extensible, interpreted language with a bytecode compiler for size, a good method of removing all filesystem/memory access components, regex, and a fast executor. Guile (http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/guile.html) is good, but it doesn't do all of that.
3. An effective, fast, secure, broadcast-capable combination packet/stream networking library with priority (send this msg NOW, send this message when the queue is clear, this message MUST arrive this message doesn't have to). Should be a fairly easy build on top of udp (with tcp possibly for reliable messages) and a bit of encryption.
If anyone knows any good implementations of solutions to the above, I'd love to hear it
I've got a lot more to say but I'm far enough off topic as it is, and a long dissertion on expert-system AI would not really be appropriate.
You can't win a fight.
this is from JC's .plan
- -------------------------------
Name: John Carmack
Email: johnc@idsoftware.com
Description: Programmer
Project: Quake 3 Arena
Last Updated: 12/21/1999 20:24:07 (Central Standard Time)
-----------------------------------------------
12/21/99
--------
The Q3 game source code is getting pushed back a bit because we had to do
some rearranging in the current codebase to facilitate the release, and
we don't want to release in-progress code before the official binary point
release.
We still have a Christmas present for the coders, though:
http://www.idsoftware.com/q1source/
Happy holidays!
conjecture at will.
+&x
FWIW, the Genesis3D SDK is in violation of the Open Source definition. While it does indeed make its source code available, the licensing terms are fairly restrictive, so it is not free software.
A much cooler project is Crystal Space, the LGPL'd cross-platform multi-API 3D game engine. It's nowhere nearly as complete as Genesis, but shows a lot of promise. I suspect today's announcement will be a boon to CS, since any of the code in Quake can now go into CS.
I've managed to compile it under FreeBSD in X11 mode, without sound or cdrom support (yet). All you have to do is edit the Makefile so that only X11 binaries are created, modify cd_linux.c and snd_linux.c so that they don't do anything and now you have a native FreeBSD version. No more Linux Emulation.
I just noticed a lot of #ifdef QUAKE2 in the WinQuake
source tree, and I was just wondering... Anyone
tried to compile it? In the WinQuake/docs directory
I found also a scary INSTALL.Quake2 file...
This is most likely remainders of an early experiment
by JC. I recall too many differences in the games (16 bits,
transparency, model interpolation) just to be the same engine.
These threads always get cluttered up with a lot of yada, yada, blah, blah, blah...
Bottom line:
Cool source entering the GenePooL should not go unnoticed.
Thanks id.
"Hey... don't be mean." --Buckaroo Banzai
I'm really setting myself up as a target for massive flames here, but this latest development has made a tough personal choice even tougher.
As you all know, Quake 3 incorporates a new form of copy protection. Each copy of Quake 3 comes with a unique CD key. Basically, when you attempt to play a networked game, your CD key is sent to id Software's authentication server. If it's good, and not already in use by someone else, the server allows you to play. This scheme is to combat unsanctioned copying of their game.
I have several philosophical problems with this:
id Software published Quake and Quake 2 without onerous copy protection in place (Quake 2 would check if the CD was in the drive, but that was it), and id Software made a lot of money. Now here we are at Quake 3, and we are suddenly informed that, "software piracy [sic] has become an enormous problem," without any hard data to back it up. To combat this alleged problem, hard-core cryptographic authentication techniques have been devised and implemented, presumably at significant cost to id...
For a game.
Moreover, id has been encouraging people to treat their Quake 3 CD keys as a secret as closely held as your credit card number. This analogy is grossly flawed in that the two numbers protect two very different things. Accidental disclosure of your credit card number could compromise your account and credit rating. However, accidental disclosure of your CD key probably won't compromise your copy of Quake 3. Rather, it compromises id's ability to sell more copies. Thus, with this flawed analogy, id attempts to conflate sales projections with personal property and reputation.
Are we to presume that, if this particular form of copy protection hadn't been implemented, it would have been impossible for id to turn a healthy profit? I find this very difficult to believe.
For primarily these reasons, I have elected not to purchase a copy of Quake 3. I find copy protection, on general principles, to be an unnecessary inconvenience, and smacks of an attitude of selfishness that has very little place in a Universe where scarcity does not -- and I contend should not -- exist.
Lest you think I am some kind of W4R3Z M0NK3Y, let me, a legitimate purchaser and owner of Quake and Quake 2, state very clearly and <STRONG>ly that John Carmack and everyone at id Software deserve every last penny they receive from sales of their software, plus more besides. Carmack is an absolutely brilliant man, far above my station and ability, and deserves every Ferrari he can lay his hands on. Same with the artists. They have done an absolutely incredible job of creating compelling new worlds for us to explore. All of them have worked unbelievably hard, and earned all the rewards we might wish for ourselves, were we in their shoes.
That's why this release of the Quake source code makes it so much harder for me to stick to my decision. By doing this, Carmack, Zoid, and everyone else at id have reinforced their astonishing coolness and deservedness of my support. I have been enriched by this release, which has only strengthened my respect for them. Against all "common business sense" (which is frequently common but rarely sense), these guys dropped one of the best known jewels of gaming history into the Digital Commons and said, "Here ya go." id Software have done virtually everything right.
...Except for the Quake 3 copy protection.
The infinite copyability of digital bits at zero cost forces a new kind of economic model, one that is fundamentally incompatible with the market-based ecomony we know today (which depends on scarcity/inconvenience to survive). I prefer to acknowledge this new economic model, and try to find ways to live and survive in it. Copy protection, on the other hand, is an attempt to deny this reality and impose artificial scarcity/inconvenience. This is, to a very limited extent, necessary if we're going to continue to be able to develop and enjoy monsterously complex games like Quake 3 (I know I couldn't draw all those textures myself). But the fundamental nature of digital media makes this an extremely brittle solution, as any publisher beleaguered by "piracy" will tell you. Once your protection scheme is cracked, natural forces take over.
I don't even pretend to have a solution to this chasm between our current market-based economy and The (Real) New Economy heralded by digital media. We as a society are still coming to grips with these new capabilities, and have only just started to form new social rules about them. This process of exploration isn't anywhere close to complete yet, so now is definitely not the time to try to bend digital bits into an economically expedient pretzel. (This is true not only for id Software, but also for the RIAA, MPAA, and all the other content providers trying to impose copy protection on the entire digital stream.) If nothing else, it will only make the social shock all the worse when Star Trek-style replicators finally turn up.
id Software: Please pledge to, at some point, drop the copy protection. It is contrary to the nature of digital media, and your unique position in the industry makes me confident you don't need it, anyway.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
I strongly suspect the original poster is not in favor of the GPL, but is trying to FUD against it by pretenting to be a fanatic and stating things that aren't true.
Finally Quake has come to BeOS!
Ok I know how most of you feel about the BeOS But I will soon have a version of quake (my personal fave) on MY favorite os. Yippee!
Hopefully Q3 isn't far behind.
I'm betting that the GL Quake source will be the stuff to look at.
Time to get out the coffee and stay up all night compiling/reading source, and skip school tomorrow.
John Carmack rules.
--If i had a good quote, It'd go here -me
I speak as moderator form the very first days when 'ordinary' /.ers could moderate.
Just because you are Carmack or ESR or RMS or Christiansen does NOT mean that EVERYTHING you post is worth of a moderation increase.
In fact, as some of Toms replies to flamebait prove, often they should be moderated down.
If a post is judged worthy by the collective wisdom of /. then it will be moderated up accordingly, and does not need the +1.
All the moderation bonus does in produce envy and increases the much discussed /. signal to noise ratio as ppl (like me right now) discuss it. It also promotes heirarchies, essentially saying 'I am more worthy than you'.
http://www.sourceforge.com might be a good place.
Who wants to be the maintainer?
("kitten vs. puppy vs. baby vs. new video card") a simple summary of my life.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
But you forget that iD and Epic (Unreal) probably make the majority of their money in source licensing, which was very profitable for the Quake2 engine.
-Erik-
CrystalSpace is: crystal.linuxgames.com
NetSpace is: ns.weblink.org
you make some very interesting points, however i must fundamentally disagree on the topic of id softwares right to use copy protection. To put my comments into perspective im an amateur games coder myself, even earn a few bucks from it (in a very small way).
id software are not a bunch of kids knocking out Quake III in their spare time, they are a business that, like every other games company is taking a big gamble. I know...I know, quake 3 looks like it will sell like hot cakes, but it aint guaranteed, nothing is in the games world, especially when someone releases Unreal Tournament just before you!
The amount of effort, time and money required to create a game like Q3 is astounding. It may take coders years to slave away on what you dismiss as 'just a game'. All that effort, all that time and work, and there are those who think that somehow they 'deserve' to have it for free.
id Software are trying to stop people stealing their product. yes its ones and zeros, but its still the product of hard work, and if everyone took the attitude that they shouldnt have to pay for it, there would be no more games.
i know you arent advocating piracy, but the flipside of the coin is that if you belive that id have the right to benefit from their work, then they MUST have the right to enforce that protection. We all know there are ways round any copy prot scheme, but we are slashdotters, do you think Joe public will be prevented from copying the game from his mates because of the key? YES he will, and so he should be. Copying games is theft, if you havent got your own unique Quake III key then you dont own it, and if you want to play it, BUY IT.
The ONLY justification for complaining about copy protection is hwn it is unnecesarily inconvenient or can prevent legit owners from playing, and there is no eveidenc of this.
Ill be getting my copy for Christmas, and one things for sure, i wont be divulging my CD key to anyone else. If you like the look of the game (and you can play the demo first). BUY THE GAME...
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
You silly arse. Go look up the definition of "humour".
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
I aint got a copy yet but I guess it's only for the Online version of the game you'll need a unique key. Just like half-life. This makes the protection a better marketing tool than most because ppl WILL pir8 the game and then when they're fed up with bot's they'll need a key to go online. Off down GAME with £39.99. If HL hadn't been this way I'm sure it wouldn't have been best SELLING game of the year. The system isn't perfect as a witness to my conenction to won.net disappearing a few times and the perrenial favourite "Your CD key is currently in use" - which didn't actually mean that just Authentication failed - take the key out of the registry and type it in again! Good luck to them. My Quake1 CD is "on loan".
.oO0Oo.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
They were the real Santa Claus as I recall. I made a quick scan of the article headers and I don't see any mention of them.
Back when Quake was new, crack dot com had the source on one of their servers. Someone happened to lift it from them.
Would Carmack still be giving us this official source release today, if that event had never taken place? He seems like the type who would, but you have to wonder if this subject ever came over at id, before releasing this.
Best regards,
SEAL
I'd say it would be substantially different, actually. The source that was stolen a few years ago only went as far as winquake, as far as i remember; this includes the GL versions and QuakeWorld.
There've been a LOT of changes since then.
- doctea
I don't seem to understand what problem people have with the GPL.
I'm not trying to start some holy war here or open any wounds, I'm just curios about a couple of things:
1) What is so terribly wrong with the GPL?
2) What is the MPL?
3) What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?
4) What is 'immoral' about the GPL?(that just cracks me up, has it been molesting little children and puppies again?? Bad GPL! Down GPL!)
--
rJames.org - illustration
Awesome!
:)
I want to use this in my signature or save it for use as a quote. I suspect that I am not the only one.
So, to give accurate attributation for it, I would like your name or email address. Or is it OK for me to just leave it unattributated.
Thanks.
At least that couldn't go `seamlessly' into the GPL -- you'd have to clearly state somewhere your additional clauses (ie. don't hide them in the GPL clauses somewhere). The GPL states explicitly that "changing is not permitted" :-) So, you'd have to have a CHANGES.2 file or something.
/* Steinar */
(This comment is of course GPLed.)
Are there any plans for making the Linux (squake and glquake) versions available as well?
:-)
:-)
The main reason I've been waiting for the Q1 source code, is the ability to compile a glibc2/libc6 version of q1
Oh, while we're at it, I'm struggling to make the Q3A-demo work with masq here... but I guess I'll sort it out
/* Steinar */
(This comment is of course GPLed.)
After going to the link [?] on the above article, I realized that the link for GPL goes to the description on everything.blockstackers.com instead of a non-opinion based description of GPL. A better place for the [?] link of GPL would be to point either to www.gnu.org or http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html (the gpl).
-b
I wish Origin did the same for the Ultima and Ultima Underworld games that are now too old to be sold. Despite their age, I think Ultima 6 and 7, and UW were the best computer games ever (barring ``Betrayal at Krondor'', and, perhaps, older stuff like KQ1 and, naturally, Adventure).
I wrote to them to try to persuade them that it would be a Good Thing(tm), but they didn't even bother to reply.
Your actual software license is not the text of the GPL, but:
This point is moot, however, because the quake map and pseudocode compiler (the Quake engine) and the data it works on (the precompiled quake-c and the maps) are separate entities.
A Quote from the GPL:
--------
"I already have all the latest software."
Have you ever considered that the engine and the maps are totally separate entities? They're not even made by the same people!
And you're an idiot if you think Carmack is not for us. Just because he released *his* work under the GPL does not make him able to speak for the rest of the id guys.
--------
"I already have all the latest software."
So that copyright doesn't apply. If I, or our anonymous poster, rewrite the license to include extra clauses, and change the Copyright statement as well to name the license the "Green Fuzzy Choo-Choo" license, by someone other than the Free Software Foundation, then it is legal. How many modified versions of the GPL have we seen? Do you really think they're all illegal?
-- The meek shall inherit the Earth. In very small plots, about 6 feet by 3.
My understanding of the GPL is that it has virus like qualities in that all derived works of a GPL'd code base are also 'infected' with the GPL.
Does this mean that Quake 2/3 are now also GPL?
I find it hard to believe that there is NO shared/derived code from one version to the next.
Or does the GPL allow for cases exactly like this where a derived work (Q2) exists prior to the GPL being attached to the precursor (Q1) means that the derived work is exempt?
The difference between Theory and Practice is greater in Practice than in Theory.
So yeah, I think he would have done it anyway :)
Cheers,
j.
"My cat's breath smells like cat food." - The Tao of Ralph Wiggum.
Will someone forward this to Blues or Stomped?
cheers,
j.
"My cat's breath smells like cat food." - The Tao of Ralph Wiggum.
Everyone who has reversed the original quake binary knew it was done with GNU djgpp. Why did ID clean it up to use visual C? hrmmm. I don't have windows, and gawd knows I am not switching to windows or dos to work on quake.
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
No one is forcing you to compile quake.
I can take the GPL, add a clause[...]
Actually, that would qualify as a "derivative work" under copyright law, and you could be prohibited from distributing your license. On the other hand, you could write "This code is licensed under the GPL, with the following exception: you may only compile the code if you're standing on your head, [yadda yadda yadda]"
I also think the banana clause would be rather hard to enforce -- particularly given trade disputes over bananas -- so I think you would have to allow for any local fruit to be an acceptable substitute.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
The GPL goes as far as copyright law lets it go. Writing QuakeC is NOT a derivation of the source code to the internal QuakeC compiler. (Imagine that, because GCC is GPLd, all C code must be GPL'd too). The GPL doesn't place any restrictions on use either, so it wouldn't disallow using GCC to compile commercial proprietary programs.
If the original QuakeC source was released under the GPL, all derivations of that would have to be GPL'd. But the original QuakeC code was released under a non-copyleft license (either non-profit use or Xfree-style, probably). You can't just take that back by releasing it again under another license. That would be like me taking a Xfree, which allows me to release it myself under new licenses, and release it under the GPL, and then try to stop other people from using Xfree in proprietary programs. Makes even less sense than real copyright law.
Yeah, especially the condition that its not warranted to work in any particular way (read: Quake I GPL is not guaranteed to be playable). There's no reason to not be able to download the shareware version and use its WADs, as a previous poster had said.
Nothing else to say...
This would make a great "budget disc". Loki could put the Quake 1 data + soundtrack on a CD along with Quake 1 for Linux (compiled for several architectures) and the source code. Maybe even toss in a level editor or three. For a reasonable price (~$15 ?) I'd pick it up.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
Your post, while erudite, smacks of fear and paranoia. These problems faced by a GPL'd Quake are trival and not dangerous. As you should know, solutions have been debated and implemented for open source authenication many times. Indeed, open source is far easier to protect than most closed source apps - if your beloved TF had believed this it wouldn't have had to release so many versions.
:)
I submit: iD is friendier and more altrustic than TF. Every day.
I submit: you do not fully understand what open source means.
I submit: your personal website is ugly and non functional. (Hah!
Michael Buttrey
Someone will figure out the algorithm for the cd-keys, or everyone will publish theirs. Then you shall have your wish. I wouldn't even be surprised if they take it out in their first version upgrade (similar to the 3.14 patch disabling the cd-in-the-drive requirement in Q2) Just because it's no longer the "hot potato".
mcrandello@my-deja.com
rschaar{at}pegasus.cc.ucf.edu if it's important.
It's interesting to see that these days, you don't need to =)
Likewise: I read an article from an old computer mag about two school kids who HaX0r3d their way into ARPANET. Much noise. I don't think that much noise would result now if someone would get an illegitimate net access.
Likewise: Now no one will make noise if someone hAx into a machine that has Quake and Golgotha source. Is "openness equals less noise from hax0r front" something?
(Mindless Rambling of the Day brought to you by wolf on the run - sorry if this has any typos, I'm typing this from Nokia 9110 while in train =)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I have applied for a project at sourceforge. Should get comfirmation within 24 hours.. ;-)
In lieu of coming up with a good name, I called it GNUquake.
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
I have a question on the GPL/LGPL issue. If for instance someone releases a GPL'ed library of some sort, and I want to use it, does that mean the my code will automatically become GPL'ed because I linked to their code? Is this what the LGPL license allows? If I use LGPL code and link to it, then I can protect my code as long as when I distribute it, I distribute the LGPL stuff I used along with it?
I have started a project at sourceforge.net called GNUquake that will be aiming to GNUify quake, make building for multiple platforms easier, improve the sound code so it works with ALSA, and whatever else you all want to add.
The project will remain compatible with the binary quake release, but eventually I would like to add more features that can be used with other GNUquake servers and clients such as a "blessed binary" system to minimize cheats, perhaps protocal improvements, and again whatever is concidered needful.
I am curently looking for a few people who want to help administer. Email me at "spinkham at users.sourceforge.net" if you are interested.
Note that CVS hasn't been updated, as the domain isn't quite active yet.. It should be up in the next 4-6 hours...
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
Anyway, I talked to Zoid about releasing it, but he was very unhappy that I had gotten the source, so I thought it was against my best interest to release it (at the time, I thought the source was legal because I had found it on a regular FTP site). But IBM was still distributing Quake 1 v.98 on their Demo disks (which i'm sure they still are).
Anyway, maybe i'll see if I can port it again, as my original copies are prolly lost on an old 43P.
Gonzo Granzeau
"Nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let you into heaven for.." -Roy Batty
Comment removed based on user account deletion
OS/2 was perhaps the most stable OS I ever ran. Supported dos better than MS-DOS. Windows programs weren't stable (these are Windows apps we're talking about), but at least a misbehaving app didn't crash my system (or even other windows and dos vm's!)
Stardock (makers of Object Desktop, probably single most useful program I ever saw for OS/2) was trying to get IBM to let them further develop a client version. IBM, of course, in their infinite wisdom, said no.
Stardock moved on, I wish them well, but I won't be buying Object Desktop for Win.
> I believe its actually based on the Quake 2 engine.
Nope. Half-Life is built on the engine from the original Quake -- this same gem we were just handed -- and not Quake 2. Even though HL was released well after Quake 2's release, the programmers at Valve had already implemented many of the improvements from Q1-Q2 in their own code, so there was no need for them to license Q2 and upgrade. HL is a Q1-derived game. Improvements to the engine include:
* Skeletal animation (Q1 was frame-based, Q2 was frame-interpolated)
* 16-bit colored textures (Q1-Q2 supported only 8-bit textures)
* Colored lighting effects (Q2 added this, but HL had it already)
* Direct3D rendering (Quake only supported OpenGL in hardware; HL supported both OGL and D3D)
* A bunch of scripting stuff
* blah blah blah
Point is, Quake 2 didn't bring anything to the table that Valve hadn't already surpassed, so they went with their own technology. Sin, OTOH, is a Quake 2 TC right down to its frame-interpolated toes.
Not that Quake 2 is a shoddy product for not having improved over Quake as much as Half-Life. Remember that Quake 2 was the only the second Quake-derived game to market. Given a development cycle as long as Half-Life's, id could have done miracles with that engine.
I can't think of any other games based on only Quake I, other than Hexen II -- Raven is always to first to market with their id-derived games. There were some other games announced from Quake technology when Hexen II hit. HL, Sin, Daikatana, and (of all games) Golgotha. HL released based on Quake I. Sin and Daikatana switched to Q2. Golgotha changed its engine entirely -- I don't remember reading why. Its source is of course now available but nothing much is going on with the project. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one.
This move by Carmack to release the code surprises me. I once remember reading that he had planned not to release until the last Quake engine game shipped. But we're still waiting on Daikatana. (I think the upcoming Soldier of Fortune is also Q2-based). I wonder how Romero's taking this?
Since MS has this DirectX barrier to cross developement for game programs, here is a very good and well thoughtout GPL'd Piece of code that anyone can use to make a multiplayer games. IT WORKS ON LINUX, FREEBSD, and a Ton of non opensource Unix Boxes.
:) You rock man. ;)
Here is your sound code example, your GL example, your network game server example, and a ton of other stuff.
Can anyone say 3d Mud CLIENT?
The Key here is the Barrier to entry just had a huge hole punched through it with a BFG5000.
I've been playing Id Games since DOOM came out, and did the TeamFortress Scene for years, and there is only one thing I can say.
I'm voting for John Carmack to be president.
--P.S. All you people whining about stuff not in or in this GPL, shut the hell up.
If you can tell me a way to GUARANTEE that a client is a valid client, and not a modified/hacked client, I'd like to hear it. The man himself, John Carmack is the only one who has come up with a reasonable solution. The problem isn't a matter of security or authentication, it's a matter of client validiation. How do you validate that the client is indeed a proper correct client? With the code available, it's very easy for someone to spoof the CRCs, checksums, and weird buffer overruns that you might use to authenticate it.
Open source *IS* good, because people can look at it and ensure that you're security/encryption methods are not flawed. But as I said, this isn't a security issue, it's a validation issue.
I submit: that the second half of your post was absolutely and completely uncalled for.
The last half of your post was also uncalled for, as it reported a slanderous, biased viewpoint from HendriX-uNF.
Anyway. Somebody named 'spinkam' was the first to suggest 'blessed binaries' as in 'netrek'.
I comment that it is illegal to create a hacked binary to distribute without releasing the source.
Finally, it is relatively simple to cheat at cards. Basically anyone could be doing it, and you wouldn't notice. But do you stop playing cards? No. You play, sometimes just with trusted friends, but you keep playing.
Playing for money will always be completely secure, since you'll probably have to d/l a new binary right as the game starts.
this GPL announcement just cost me over 100 bucks.
Who ever said that software was free?
- passion
1) What is so terribly wrong with the GPL?
:)
a) Quite a long license.
b) Doesn't share well with anyone but GPL.
c) Zealots (I know everyone has these, but I see more GPL zealots than even Windows)
d) More as an answer to number 4.
2) What is the MPL?
Mozilla Public License
3) What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?
I can't compare the GPL and MPL since I have not read the MPL. I prefer the BSD license over the GPL.
4) What is 'immoral' about the GPL?(that just cracks me up, has it been molesting little children and puppies again?? Bad GPL! Down GPL!)
GPL is called the viral license or the hoarding license. Any software development based off of GPL code must be GPL'd. It makes all source it touches GPL'd. This feature is not bad in itself. What is morally bad is claiming that one is sharing the code with everyone by putting code under the GPL license. Unfortunately, this "sharing" is only within the GNU community.
One of the main reasons for the formation of the FSF (Free Software Foundation) was due to the proprietarization of UNIX. I now see that it is happening again with the GPL. I can view GPL code, but I am unable to freely use it in any other licensed code (i.e., BSD). To me, this looks and acts a lot like proprietary code, but it is claimed to be "free".
One last thought: the U.S. Government is always asking us to give up our rights to better protect us. The GPL is similar, but not exactly, to this. Do you want freedom or "freedom"?
Here is a good license to consider for truly sharing code with others: Freedom.
P.S. I used to be a big fan of the GPL until I really saw the truth behind it.
I don't see any reason why not. It would make a very nice addition to a linux distro.
My question is: are the pak files also GPL'ed, or just the engine?
Well, either way, thangs goes to id for the great work they've done. Q1 is still the greatest game of all time! I still remember all of the fun we had my freshman year in college loading it on all of the machines in the computer lab. Ahh, the memories.
This sig is false.
According to readme.txt that comes w/ those sources:
:-)
All of the Quake data files remain
copyrighted and licensed under the
original terms, so you cannot redistribute
data from the original game, but if
you do a true total conversion, you can
create a standalone game based on this
code.
I will see about having the license
changed on the shareware episode of quake
to allow it to be duplicated more freely
(for linux distributions, for example),
but I can't give a timeframe for it.
You can still download one of the original
quake demos and use that data with the
code, but there are restrictions on the
redistribution of the demo data.
BTW when I tried to see http://www.fsf.org/, this happened:
ERROR
The requested URL could not be retrieved
While trying to retrieve the URL: http://www.fsf.org/
The following error was encountered:
Read Timeout
The system returned:
[No Error]
A Timeout occurred while waiting to read data from the network. The network or server may be down or congested. Please retry your request.
It seems that RMS and Co. has downloaded that source code and some free total conversion, compiled them and started playing with in FSF's server.
Juhapekka "naula" Tolvanen - http://iki.fi/juhtolv
There's probably a way to do it, so if you want it so badly that you'd like the world to end you probably wouldn't mind spending a couple of months figuring it out.
If the system was good enough, you might even be able to convince id to use it in the future so you have your precious gaming purity back.
u idiot! Im a qw and im pretty happy about it! It still take a lot of coding knowledge to create cheats and via proxys u were able to cheat a lot already so this aint new! I am sure that some clever coders will find a way to make a better cheat protection maybe via a external proggie, next time dont give it such a short thought, im sure this helping the qw scene more than it damages it!
I am rather certain that Budda did not say "whoa" :o) Has any one else noticed that Keanu seems to play the messiah disturbingly often? Lets see... 'Bill and Ted', 'Little Budda', 'The Matrix', 'Johnny Mnenomic'? I don't remember the plot of that one very well.
Shawn Poulsen (Fruan)
"On Slashdot, many obvious things are insightful." - Annonymous Coward, 2000/7/9
My understanding is that they can't because Microsoft owns part of it too. And, as you can imagine, it would not be in Microsoft's interest for OS/2 to go Open Source. It would make OS/2 more viable and increase the users' number of choices. From Microsoft's point of view, Choice is Bad Thing, so this simply cannot be allowed to happen.
OS/2 will never be freed from its owners, and therefore is permanently dead, unless IBM changes their mind about marketing it. (BTW, I am typing this on an OS/2 box.)
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
There's something about JC... Jesus Christ,
Johan Cruyff, John Carmack.
I think you're misconstruing what he said. For on thing, why should buying quake, for 10 bucks no less, be a burden? It would probably be possible to get the .PAK files separately. I think...
This is a hella cool idea. In comparison to my droning comp sci textbooks (read: depressants), understanding the plumbing of a still impressive 3D engine - thereby learning efficiency in coding and design - is a very intriguing idea.
Hey John C., pitch this to the biz guys: we can make a book about this, books make money.
No the last half of my original post was absoutely called for, as my point in posting it was to promote others who would take such similar and extreme actions, which ARE absolutely uncalled form, to calm down and be more reasonable. It's no different than the Linux crazies go go off on sending hatemail to any company that bashes Linux. If you present yourself in a mature confident manner, you'll accomplish a lot more than by being rash and posting/sending hatefull things without thinking about how they might affect others. That is why I included it. He is not the first, nor is the the last to bring up some ridiculous way of "screwing" id back, and that is CERTAINLY NOT something I want to see. I am very happy ID released the code, though I definitely do not like the implications it will have on the game I play. I'm just glad there are other interesting games coming out now that have finally drawn my attention away from TF, because for the last few years everything else has paled in comparision.
You're now forgetting something:
If/When the proxy/exe loader whatever is local, it can count checksums ITSELF. It's local, it has all (normal user) rights to the filesystem etc. Why not to use this method?
I think exe loader would work better on this. Read the binary, count checksums and execute only if it's what it's supposed to be.
Quake game mods are written in QC, but turned into data to be processed by the main code. I think the spirit of the GPL would want that code to be released, but it is only a small step from there to saying that every program loaded by a GPL operating system must be GPL, which is clearly not the case.
No, Quake game mods are not required to be under the GPL, at least not if my understanding of the way they work is correct. It's either an interpreter or a JIT compiler, correct? Well, just because an interpreter (like bash) is under the GPL doesn't mean that all the scripts it interprets have to be under the same license. Just because the GCC compiler suite is GPL'ed doesn't mean that the code you compile with it has to be.
The GPL does apply to both statically and dynamically linked binaries, however, so Quake 2 game modifications would have to be GPL'ed if Quake 2 itself was released under only the GPL. If you released Quake 2 in the future under the LGPL then binary-only modules would be fine.
The Quake 2 case is interesting, though, since it's already released under a license that (if not explicitly, than by years of practice) allows binary-only DLLs to be released; and rereleasing it under the GPL wouldn't take away that right for people who purchased the original license. So would people who *hadn't* purchased the original game be allowed to write binary-only modules for a GPL'ed Quake 2? I haven't a clue. Ask RMS.
Check out CNN's front page, in the World News section, third story down.... "Quake in Java Kills At Least Four" =)
What about the companies that lease the quake1 engine? This is what is now GPL, isn't it? If someone modifies the q1 engine and makes original content for their game, would they still have to lease the engine from ID?
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask questions.
Here is my proposal for an idea relating to the quake source release. Why not make a Quake client that can connect to Quake2 servers, or play Quake2 demos?
:)
I know that Quake (1) and Quake2 are fairly different, however, there are many similarities. My original thoughts for this idea was to write a mod for a game like Unreal Tournament which lets you connect to Quake2 servers.
Now, there would be many technical challenges with this, such as, for example, how would the game media be displayed? The textures, models and sounds could be neglected, but you'd at least need to be able to play the levels. And from my knowledge the UT level format and the Quake2 format are pretty different.
I doubt this would have any real purpose; I'm mainly thinking purely from a "cool" factor. I mean, think about it. Imagine loading UT (or any other similar game) and hoping onto a Quake2 server. I just find the possible something interesting to think about
If anyone is interested in actually trying it, the Quake2 demo (DM2) protocol is documented at http://www.planetquake.com/demospecs/dm2/ . And the Quake2 network protocol is documented at http://www.opt-sci.arizona.edu/Pandora/q2/ .
Note: First, please don't moderated this as offtopic. My original idea invovled Quake2, but that the Quake code is out, it might be easier to do it with that. The two architectures are similar enough that it doesn't really matter..
Oh well, just my thoughts -- pete
Pete
No, the GPL terms apply only when you distribute GPLed code. You can do whatever the hell you want with it otherwise, or at home. You can use gcc to compile Windows if you want. You can use cvs to manage a non GPL source base.
Also keep in mind that you can use GPLed code as a basis for development in more than one way. For instance you can use Linux as a kernel in a proprietary system; you will have to distribute the code to the kernel but not to your software.
You can write non GPL-ed front ends to GPL software
I realize all of this. I was speaking of actually writing code which includes GPL code.
It's still sharing, unlike the way most software out there is licensed.
Sharing specific to a group sounds more like hoarding. It rings of being proprietary which the FSF is against. This is almost hypocritical.
The GPL is mainly concerned with freedom of use.
No. It is not. That would be free beer which is why you hear RMS always saying, "think free speech, not free beer."
Most users do not care about adding other code to the programs they use and then sending copies to other people. And of course you can use GPL code with BSD licensed code (providing it does not have the 'advertising clause'), the end result will just be under the GPL.
Which is why the GPL is always being pointed out to be viral in nature.
What rights are you giving up? Do you think you have the inherent 'right' to use other people's code in any way you choose? If so, I suggest you stop thinking about the GPL, and set yourself to the task of getting copyright law overturned.
Are you arguing for me or against me? The GPL's intent is to give people the 'freedom' to use code under the GPL, but they have to submit to the GPL for this benefit. Also, if I recall correctly, RMS would like to see copyright law overturned.
Don't forget that FreeBSD includes stuff like Soft Updates and Vinum, which is under licenses as strict or more strict than the GPL.
I use FreeBSD without these. They are not the default.
I believe that someone should share without strings (GPL license usage) when they claim to be "free"-ly sharing. This is one of my complaints against the GPL. If they were claiming to be sharing within a select group, I would have no grief against it.
Under Redhat 6.1, I compiled qwsv and qwcl. I found that at runtime, I get an error like this:
Fatal Error: Pak file has 507261234 files
(or something similar).
There's a problem in QW/client/common.c when it reads the pak file header. Could be a signed/unsigned issue. I wonder if anyone actually tried running the output after compilation at id.
Interestingly, I couldn't get it to work with IP Masquerading, either. Or rather, I could only connect one client through it, while subsequent ones failed to handshake (it appears the first client got all the handshake replies instead).
;)
The full version of the game appears not to suffer from it, however, so I'm happy again
- Jules
I see what you're saying, and I don't see any good solutions either. However, it seems plain from the evidence of most other replies to your post that the world isn't quite ready for a non-scarce economy. People just can't get their heads around the concept, let alone argue about it properly.
However, one might consider (and I am loathe to bring this up on Slashdot for fear of unleashing a rash of zealotry) that the Open Source community is an example of a non-scarce economy where (some) needed work gets done and is then freely shared. And some people pay for this work. Unfortunately the number of people able to support themselves fully off of open source work compared to the number of people DOING open source work is very small - but it's a start.
With all due respect to Id, have you ever seen the source code for the Quake2 gamex86.dll? It's often messy, comments are sparse, and naming conventions are plainly up to each individual coder. Still, it was a learning experience.
"Prejudice is wrong; you should hate everyone the same."
From Graeme Devine's .plan file:
So far I've seen issues with the servers being able to see the auth server and clients using
IP forwarding not having the correct setup on the IP forwarding server. If it's a Linux IP
forwarding machine use something like:
modprobe ip_masq_quake ports=26000,27000,27910,27960,27950,27951,27952
Modulating characters within a key sequence will not work. It appears to work because when
you've validated your IP with an authentic CD key you've "leased" that IP address for a period
of time. Even if you enter a junk string, that will work because your IP address is still valid.
no! no! Get a TNT2 Ultra or GeForce 256, mmm, nvidia
I don't know what I was doing but changing all jmp xxx(,%xxx,4)'s to jmp *xxx(,%xxx,4)'s fixed it for me. Compiles and runs fine on a bleeding edge Debian system.
jone