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"What exactly is illegal about it?"

Seriously? Are you trying to be flamebait or you really don't know?

Israel has been terrorizing Palestinians and stealing their land for decades. They have committed massive human rights violations and indiscriminately murder Palestinian citizens - including women and children - whilst trying to portray itself as the victim to the rest of world. Of course, nobody is buying it. It is really quite disgusting.

As a result, Israel has begun isolating itself from the rest of the world and now has earned a boycott, divestment and sanctions movement brought against them for their crimes. The BDS movement is rapidly growing as more and more people become aware of the atrocities that Israel is committing.

Here is a map detailing the land loss by Palestine at the hands of the theiving Israelis.

This is how you know it was all planned, from Clinton signing off on the final; removal of Glass Steagall to Fab stating "I don't even know what I'm selling".
The same group of people have been at these financial constructions designed to rob people, the FED is a part of it, you need only look at who runs the financial institutions, who is tops at the fed, who has the presidents ear and finally who really drives the wars in the Middle East.
All the same group of people, it's amazing people aren't pointing it out...
Except there is.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/...
http://www.ifamericansknew.org...

Another Clinton in the White House will seal the deal and screw the rest of us, Hillary is beholden to foreign powers.

It costs a lot more to move 'em from Hymietown to Hebron, than it does to give a few deserving foreigners the rewards of academic excellence.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Copy Right Alert System Backers
Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures: Owned by Disney Enterprises, Inc run by Bob Iger Jewish

Paramount Pictures Corporation run by Brad Grey Jewish

Sony Pictures Entertainment Inc run by Michael Lynton Jewish

Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation run by Stephen Blairson Jewish

Universal City Studios LLC run by Ron Meyer Jewish

Warner Bros. run by Barry Meyer Jewish

And on and on and on
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,4676183.column

Crossed checked via Wikipedia

Now go look up who owns and runs the major banking and financial corporations.

Now go look up "neo-conservatism" and AIPAC

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

ISRAEL FIRST

Now thumbs down and scream "anti-semetism" like a Pavlovian dog.

It's easy to look at death counts and draw demonic conclusions, however it's a bit more complicated than that.

As a reference I found 6500 Arab Palestinian (AP) vs 1100 Israeli killed in the conflict since september 2000. These numbers comes from what appears as a rather anti-Israeli site. Bloodthirsty demons right? Not so fast. One thing is that they also include deaths by other APs (like from a not so distant Gaza civil war). But more importantly they also completely ignore how Hamas rockets are typically launched from civilian sites, while keeping the inhabitants hostage.

The above mentioned rockets doesn't kill that many. They're simply not precise enough. However they do cause a lot of terror. Imagine waking up in the middle of the night hearing a rocket strike close to your families house. Imagine this scenario goes on almost every day for years. Sooner or later, if not you, somebody you know well will die. What if you have the power to make it stop, but taking out the launch site, requires the death of 40 PA hostages. I suspect most would not wait for the death count to equal before taking action.

However even ignoring this, one have to remember this is an official war. Hamas, the official government, doesn't even bother to hide their intentions of throwing all of Israel out of the region. They regularly attack with any means on hand. As such the numbers are very low. In the Iran-Iraq war, as much as 900k Iranians died. In WW2 around 26 million Soviets died. Even for a superpower such as the US vs Iraq couldn't protect hundreds of thousands deaths.

Why?
Oh this reason...
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/16/israel2
http://ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2010.html

Yup, yup

Keep wasting mod points buddy, I got karma from hell! Notice you didn't dispute the facts, such as the MORE THAN 5 BILLION yes, with a b, that comes out of American taxpayer pockets to prop up Israel yearly.

I personally don't give a shit which side you are on, simply answer this if you can: Why the fuck should we bury ourselves deeper in debt to prop up ANY third world country? Maybe if we stopped pissing in everyone else's business and take care of our own problems then maybe...just maybe...we wouldn't have to keep pissing money down the drain on the giant blackhole that is the DoD budget. Ever think of that? But keep wasting points bud, I got allll day.

True, though Israel could easily put the lie to such scandalous charges, it is also reasonable for them to dismiss something like this when no proof is presented. But there are also a number of organ theft cases, summarized here: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/sweden.html/ Read a few of them and see if you're still sure there's no fire behind that smoke. Stories that are way more specific and solid, with means and motive than suggest it's all a vast conspiracy theory cum anti-semitic blood libel. (and yet also true, after 60 years of manifest ethnic cleansing, brutality and wholesale Palestinian organ obliteration it is dangerously easy to jump to false conclusions)

Israeli forces targeting civilians? This post is just the Israeli government sophistry.

Would you tell us how many Israelis have been killed since, let us say, September 2000?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

Of course that is not the official Israeli government figure so you may not accept it.

Read the Goldstone report. Of course Israel targeted civilians including a UN School! Why does Israel not have a proper judicial investigation of the allegations in that report.

In any case in the situation that the Palestinians find themselves in in Gaza would not everyone join the resistance.

David Ben Gurion 1970: "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel."

http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/israel/israel_economy.html

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$200.7 billion (2008 est.)
$193.2 billion (2007)
$183.3 billion (2006)
note: data are in 2008 US dollars

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/17/world/middleeast/17israel.html
Israel to Get $30 Billion in Military Aid From U.S.

This is a better breakdown, year by year:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/114bill.html

This estimate of total U.S. direct aid to Israel updates the estimate given in the July 2006 issue of the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs. It is an estimate because arriving at an exact figure is not possible, since parts of U.S. aid to Israel are a) buried in the budgets of various U.S. agencies, mostly that of the Defense Department (DOD), or b) in a form not easily quantifiable, such as the early disbursement of aid, giving Israel a direct benefit in interest income and the U.S. Treasury a corresponding loss. Given these caveats, our current estimate of cumulative total direct aid to Israel is $113.8554 billion.

It must be emphasized that this analysis is a conservative, defensible accounting of U.S. direct aid to Israel, NOT of Israel's cost to the U.S. or the American taxpayer, nor of the benefits to Israel of U.S. aid.

One or two percent of GDP? Hmmmmm - how many nations are donating that much to MY country? I can't recall any headlines proclaiming the generosity of foreign nations giving aid to the United States.

Uhhh...didn't bother actually RTFL I posted, yes? the problem is, that unlike others that buy our arms, we are actually GIVING them away to Israel, as we give them the cash, right out of your pocket BTW, and in return Israel hands us OUR OWN MONEY in return for the hardware. that is NOT a 'sale" but a giveaway disguised with some lame dirty backroom dealing.

And ultimately I believe that bullshit like this can be traced back to influence from the "But Jebus won't come back! ALL SHALL PRAISE JEBUS!" brigade. Come to the south and listen to the preachers blather on with the Pro Israeli sermons. Pretty much their stance is they wouldn't give a flying shit if Israelis had Arab babies sticking on pikes in front of their door as long as their 2000+ year dead messiah has a landing strip for his fluffy white cloud. Is it any wonder the Arabs are treating anything the USA does as an extension of the crusades? Hell for the "Praise Jebus!" crowd that is EXACTLY what it is!

Selling weapons to allies I have NO problem with. Giving $7 million A DAY in cash to an ally so they can "pretend" to be buying weapons from us? Yeah, I kinda have a problem with that. Not to mention I have a problem with the fact that Israel screams "Anti-Semite!" and "Holocaust!" if you dare to say anything about their human rights abuses or their stirring up shit with their neighbors. So I'm sorry, but your argument just doesn't hold water.

The US gives USD 7 million a day to Israel. That is the root of the regions discontent - a stolen land, enforcing a racial/ethnic exclusionary policy by force of arms. Then, the opressor constantly plays the role of threatened victim.

If it's such a fucking "democracy", why can't christian inhabitants of east Jerusalem vote?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Uhhh....ever read up on The Six Day War? Israel has been stirring up shit with its neighbors for DECADES because it knows the USA will always be there to cover its ass if the excrement hits the cooling device.

Allow me to quote the former defense minister Moshe Dayan "After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was. I did that, and Laskov and Chara did that, and Yitzhak did that, but it seemed to me that the person who most enjoyed these games was Dado."

That BTW wasn't something made up by some Arab, the man bragged about it in his book. So I don't honestly see how you can describe any of the players in the region as "responsible" as BOTH sides have been major asshats, only IMHO Israel has gotten extra assholey thanks to having big daddy USA backing them up and selling them really nice hardware. Oh and you might want to know that even with our economy in the shitter we are sending them ultra fatty checks to the tune of $7,000,000 A DAY! Frankly as long as we are running deficits we shouldn't be sending jack shit to anybody, especially when the country we are sending it to is gonna use it to act like douches. We need to quit propping up these countries and stay the hell out of everybody's business and mind our own, sadly something we haven't done since before WWII.

It's a statement talking about the illegal occupation and claim on the City of Jerusalem by the Zionist state. I am in total agreement with you about being sick of the whole thing but a little investigation shows just how badly treated the Palestinians have been by the Israeli's(and the world). The first major problem is the claim that Israel is theirs because God gave it to them. Google the term 'Greater Israel' and you will see what I mean(there's a reason Israel want all Hezbollah weapons out of the south of lebanon up to the Litani river). This is a link to some facts on the ground. Iran has never invaded anyone in its short history. Ahmadinejad has never outright denied the holocaust occurred as the western media like to portray all the time. he has called for studies to see whether it was just as bad as claimed. I am not saying here that it wasn't bad but there are several very glaring oddities in the story that do not appear to stand up to the test. It's not a fight over who's religion is right it is a fight over who's land it is. Imagine if you lived for centuries on the same land as your ancestors and then one day men with guns throw you out on the street because God said it was the right thing to do. I have been to Israel and believe me if you are a Goy you are a second-class human being(although some teachings class you as a beast on two legs). here's an attitude amongst the orthodox that is quite prevalent but rarely stated so blatantly.

From the article you cite, "These numbers were published today, Monday, by the Israeli defense ministry"

How about a more impartial reference,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict_2003

It has Palestinian deaths at 4209 (890 of them children), Israel deaths at 1556 (113 children).

Israel keep saying they want peace whilst doing the majority of the killing

You just dont understand propaganda do you...

Why dont you take a look at the stats from http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Some 50 rockets have been launched from Gaza in recent days, after the killing of three Hamas members by Israel.
A six-month ceasefire in Gaza between Israel and Hamas ended last week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7799593.stm
Israel killed several Hamas members, Hamas responded with rockets, Israel responded with airstrikes and an invasion. This seems to be the same tactic Israel has been using for thirty years:

General Moshe Dayan, who commanded the Israeli forces in 1967 and gave the order to occupy the Golan, gave an interview to an Israeli journalist, Rami Tal, in 1976. The interview was kept secret until April 1997, when it was published in the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharanot. It has been authenticated by Israeli historians, and General Dayan's daughter, Yael, a member of the Knesset, insisted that it be published.

In the interview, Tal interjected, "But they were sitting on the Golan Heights...."

"Never mind that," said Dayan. "I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started.... It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything - (it was) in the demilitarized zone - and [we] would know in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until, in the end, the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force.... And that's how it was."

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ul-akins.html
There have also been talks of the US selling the Israelis our C-RAM (Counter - Rocket, Artillery and Mortar) systems (based on the naval Phalanx CIWS). It would take one to two dozen of them (Depending on if you wanted redundant backups) to completely cover the Gaza strip, from the outside. This would allow Israeli to intercept rockets, artillery and mortars before they ever leave Palestinian airspace.

I find it a tad interesting that a few months before Israel gets near immunity to rocket attacks, they get 'fed up' and invade.

Thanks for the polite and thoughtful response, although I will of course disagree you on the politics. In an editorial yesterday, Ha'aretz, a major Israeli newspaper called the most recent actions "war crimes". This characterization is fairly common outside of America, Britain, and Israel. For some reason "we" seem to think it's not torture if we do it, but it is. I agree that the Israeli bombardment is a response to Hamas rocket attacks, no doubt about it. But a better question is why is Hamas doing the rocket attacks in the first place? The settler movement is one of the major causes. I will ask you to do the same thing. How would you feel if one day you woke up and found a group of heavily armed "settlers" had taken over your farm, essentially depriving you of your means of livelihood. Would I feel different if Hamas was rocketing my town? Absolutely. I would want to kill them. But that would be wrong. A perfectly valid emotional response, but in the end, counterproductive. The idea that Israel is attacking Hamas, sans civilians is, I am sorry, ridiculous. Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth. Hamas does not have an army, the fighters live in apartment buildings and houses, they don't have barracks. The civilian deaths are not accidental, they know that for every "legitimate" target killed, many civilians will die, some of them Christians, (yes there are Christian Pals). They cannot "move", they are trapped there, there is literally no place to go. In the past when the Germans or the Russians or even the Yanks, bombed cities, people could move, but in the case of Gaza they are trapped, they cannot leave, it's impossible. Some tried to get to Egypt but were shot for their efforts. You are also correct when you say that the Gazans have not been affected by the sanctions any worse than the Iraqis. Well almost correct, the Gazans have not suffered as much as the Iraqis who, as a result of the sanctions, suffered 1 million "extra deaths" due to the lack of medicines, food, etc. As for the precision of the attacks, this is probably correct. However a 500lb bomb that hits dead centre on an Hamas office building will inevitably kill civilians in the surrounding area, so in that sense the civilian deaths are quite deliberate. In closing I will say that I am against Hamas rocketing Israel. Completely against it. It's wrong, it's completely ineffective, and it just pisses off the Israelis and gives them good political and faux moral justification for their actions (if you only get your news from FOX). There are ways to stop the fighting, but it is not up to the Pals. It is up to Israel. They need to make a real and just peace, which will never happen as long as America continues to finance them and provide them with free weapons. The Pals are fighting an occupation, just as anyone would, just as the Iraqis are. End the occupation and you end the war. You've obviously had the full benefit of the Zionist POV via AIPAC and the infotainment networks, so please have a look at some contrary data here: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/. And if you are still interested in at least understanding your many "enemies" think tune into Al Jazeera, I believe that is still legal in America, although your IP will be logged for future reference by some spy or other. Good luck! We'll all need it.

We provide Japan's defense because they have proven themselves untrustworthy with offensive military force. That is different from arming Israel, then giving them billions in foreign aid, then invading Iraq because of "ties to terrorism," which amount to giving money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers... that sounds like Israel's problem, not America's.

anyway....

I would like to get back to the heart of what I was intending to argue from my first post. That is Judaism and National Socialism are, as codified manifestations of the folk-zeitgeist of their respective audiences, equivalent. They serve the same goal of cohesion and definition of folk, craft the laws for interaction with those outside of the tribe, and provide the framework and rationale from which to approach the world.

They are inherently exclusive, based on traditional national identity, espouse loyalty to one's own kind, and ultimately find political expression and manifestation. National Socialism required the NSDAP and the Reich, just as Judaism required the Zionists.

Looking at Old Testiment literature, anyone will see that Judaism was just as "barbaric," cut throat and blood thirsty as the ancient Norse. First, they get God's hitman to off all of the Egyptian kids, then they go and slaughter the Cananites and Philistines and jack their land. They say it's OK because God told them they're better than everyone else and that they can have the land.

Modern, political National Socialism of the 20th Century required the use of Norse mythology to fuel its political ideology. Zionism requires Judaism as its rationale, and the two are inextricably linked.

In fact, with the founding of a Zionist state, the requirement for philosophical National Socialism in the vein of Martin Heidegger are met, because the Jew can now enjoy a (semi) autochythonic relationship with his "homeland." He is therefore no longer the eternal wanderer, no longer das ewig jude -- the Jew regains the full identity as a national and political unit.

My argument, as you see, has precious little to actually do with any alleged atrocities. They are irrelevant to my comparison.

However, fair being fair, either Germany needed Poland as a buffer against the Soviets, or Israel doesn't really need Gaza or the West Bank.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ -- look there for some more info.

P.S. -- I'm not defending Germany, I'm just sayin' is all.

Israel can do nothing right, as far as the media is concerned

I suppose you're not familiar with the American media. There's a significant bias in favor of Israel here.

The ledger of atrocities is about 10 (if not 100) to 1 in favor of Israel.

That's quite debatable. And maybe if the "other side" had all that fancy American technology, they wouldn't feel the need to use suicide bombers. It's the only weapons delivery system they can afford right now. Don't think for a second that Israel wouldn't do the same thing under similar circumstances. As far as targeting civilians is concerned, there are no innocents. Make no mistake, the rules are economically motivated.

The United States has a full spectrum of nut groups. And that's just fine.

• White nationalist group
• Black nationalist group
• Pro-Israel nationalist group
• Anti-Israel nationalist group.
• Pro-war
• Anti-war

They keep each other honest.

The argument holds perfectly true. [T]hat same demographics page shows that 75% of the US population is 'White' (which also includes non-euro originating caucasians but in general is a euro originating group) and political leadership is going to reflect that when you look at all the numbers.

You missed the point. Your original comment suggested that a politician must be Christian because 88% of population is Christian. (“...[T]ell me again why being Christian shouldn't be a pre-requisite...”) Are you trying to say that black people should not be allowed to hold office because 75% of the population is white?

The various churches do not hold any particularly powerful sway in goverment, else you'd see an entirely different government.

Surely you are joking.

We have (attempted) abortion bans, the FDA blocking over-the-counter distribution of Plan B, bans on homosexual marriage, an unbalanced policy on Israel, and both tax breaks for and government hand-outs to churches.

And the present Administration strongly professes religion. Bush (used to) conference with Ted Haggard weekly and says he asks God for guidance when making decisions.

so it's not a theocracy but the fact that the majority of the leadership of a country has similar beliefs as the populace shows no correlation with theocracy either.... you are just rambling and trying to show some connection because you feel disenfrachised by the fact that your personal beliefs are not represented to your satisfaction. Understandable but you'll just have to get used to it... as long as your personal beliefs are a minority view in the general populace.

I am the first to state, in this discussion, this country is not a theocracy.

And I honestly have no idea how you draw these conclusions. Black people, as you point out, are the minority and yet black people are often elected in spite of a majoriy of white voters. Meanwhile, going back to the original comment, atheists are immediately disqualified and therein lies the dissonance. One minority remains eligable for public office but the other does not.

stop whining.

Stop equating calls for fairness with whining.

Religion has nothing to do with whether a person's decisions are grounded in reality or not.

It most certainly does. If our President started telling us that he asks The Flying Spaghetti for guidance in morning prayer, we would rightly think he was insane. Or if not FSM, Zeus or Thor or Baal. Why does belief in a relatively modern deity somehow deserve respect where belief in Ra or the Tooth Fairy does not?

Saddam Hussein was a public Aetheist and no one could say that his decisions were grounded in reality, at least not our version of it.

I never made that assertion. Quit putting “words in my mouth” (this is twice now). Even atheists can be stupid (and I will gladly line up the crack-pots in my camp), but theism is a clear indicator that the person is rejecting reality to some degree. Not a condition I want in people who have the power to start wars.

We are Israel. It is no secret that, in addition to direct involvement in Middle East conflicts, we provide rich funding the Israeli military. To the average Arab that either fears or is hell-bent on destroying the west, the two forces are indistinguishable.

I had to reply to this ridiculous comment.

Israel cares so much about the Palestinians that Ariel Sharon order Sabra and Shatilla.

Israel cares so much about the Palestinians that they killed over 770 Palestinian children since 2000.

Israel cares so much about the Palestinians that they built the apartheid wall to rob them of their land.

Israel cares so much about the Palestinians that they're starving them.

And on another note: Israel apparently cares about their own Israel-Arab citizens so much they didn't even provide them with bomb shelter during the recent Lebanon/Israel conflict.

It's time to stop supporting racism and get you're facts straight.

It is not arrogant to try to defend yourself against a constant an unprovoked attack from a cowardly enemy that hides among the civilian population. Israel did not try to kill kids, and the blame for the deaths of any children that were killed in Lebanon lies soley with the group that started the conflict: Hezbollah. There were thousands of innocent Israeli casualties due to the relentless stream of rockets Hezbollah fired into Israel. Why aren't you calling Hezbollah arrogant too?

I am from the planet where the UN Security Council unanimously passed resolution 687 and over a dozen subsequent resolution that explicitly authorized- even required- the use of military force to get Iraq to expose and dismantle it's weapons programs and stop supporting terrorists (among other things). Since Iraq never did either of those, the use of military force was not only authorized, it was obligated Chapter VII of the UN Charter to force complience.

I don't think actual facts or links will change your mind on this manner because you are an apologist for israel but just in case I am wrong here we go.

First of all read this article by Patrich Buchanan. Here are some quotes from that article.

""Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah," roared Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon on July 27"

"The Israeli paper then summarized what the justice minister and general were saying: "In other words, a village from which rockets are fired at Israel will simply be destroyed by fire." That was Thursday."

""One who goes to sleep with rockets shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't wake up in the morning," said Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman."

So there are three quotes by highly places israeli diplomats telling the world in no uncertain terms that they intend to kill civillians. We know by know that they were telling the truth because they carried out their threats and destroyed entire villages and displaced a million people.

Furthermore Israel USED CLUSTER BOMBS INSIDE CITIES which are designed to cause maximum damage to civillians. If you want to avoid civillian deaths you don't use cluster bombs inside of cities. You act like a man and send your army in there. Only cowards or sadists drop cluster bombs inside of a city to try and get a handful of terrorists.

Finally there is this damning report by amnesty international.

I could sit here all day and pull out one link after another but as I said I don't expect you to actually read any of this or to let any of these facts penetrate your head. You are an apologist for this regime and you are incapable of thinking or saying anything negative about them. Certainly google is available to you just like it's available to me.

"I think there is an equal amount of culpability to be shared by all sides in this."

Really? Equal? Exactly 50/50? Does the fact that hezbollah killed more soldiers then civillians and israel killed more civillians then soldiers make a difference at all?

"I just think that we are better served in discussion if we stick to things that actually happened."

Yes lets to do that. You want to start with the 15,000 kidnapped and imprisoned arabs rotting in israeli dungeons without trials, juries, charges or lawyers? You want to start with the regime of torture? Or perhaps you want to start with these stats?

Yes I agree we can't promote illegal behavior that's why Israel ought to come into compliance of the 60+ U.N. resolutions against regarding illegal extra-territorial holding and live within it's rightful 1967 green boundaries.

Jews against thee occupation has a few highlights here:

http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html

And the full 60+ are here:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/un.html

Yes it would be nice if Israel stopped flagrantly violating international law, wouldn't it?

I think the same people that want to kill every israeli have us as number 2 on their list.

or we are going to have a large scale war between the two cultures.

We won't have to. If the situation in Iraq is any indication, they'll be too busy killing each other.

You've got a point about the support the US gives to Israel, though....

You've got a point about the support the US gives to Israel, though....

As Tom-the-wise pointed out, the conflict has roots that predates Hezbollah.
From the tone of your post, I'll say you're highly likely to be an American buying all the pro-zionist media propaganda. Next time you wanna actively support the extermination a whole faith based on what some nuts do in the name of that same faith, think about what'd happen if Muslims held you accountable for the crimes your president commits and start a massive agressive campaign against Americans.
I urge you to take the time to read this well-documented account of the middle-eastern conflict related by Jews themselves http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
If after that your opinion is not mitigated the least bit, that'll be the the clear sign that the point of no return's been reached.

Try this: http://ifamericansknew.org

Getting into the whole debate about how many people died in Lebanon is as shameful as the people revising the death toll of the holocaust. They're innocent victims, for heaven's sake!
I urge anyone interested in broadening their vision of the conflict to check out this well-documented resource compiled by the "Jews for justice" organisation http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

Binding UN sanctions? What are those?

Read about it on wikipedia.
Also, here is an outdated list of UN resolutions against Israel, that were struck down by American veto.

>And imagine that the people doing this (the Zapatistas, say) won the next Mexican presidential >election. Now they're the Mexican government. Then they fire some more rockets. Since they're the >government, that's now an act of war.

I believe the problem at the root of all this is that Israel is occupying Palestine (the place that was there before Israel was created). Of course the people who were there before, and got ejected from their land..don't like it, and want their land back..

So the above example would be like if the US took over all of Mexico and kicked out most of the mexicans who are now living there who are now refuged in Guatamala, firing rockets once in a while, so they can get their land back..

That is the situation really.

The bias in the news doesn't help much either..

ie. when Israelis bomb an arab residential area full of families & kids it reads
"Army today destroyed a terrorist outpost in Gaza killing 3 militants"

while when the arabs do the same thing to Israel, it reads
"terrorists attack residential area, 5 families and 6 children killed"

And, when the Israeli's do a 'kidnapping' of someone from the arab side, it reads
"Arab militants were detained and are being held today after a raid into a militant stronghold" (actually, indefinately, there are like 1000 arabs or more "kidnapped" and in Israeli jails)

And we worry about Iran "supporting" Hezbolla... and who is supporting Israel, and giving them their whole army for free, and all their bombs for free, and paying a very big hunk of their national budget so they can just go and terrorize everyone living around them? We are..the USA, with our tax dollars... shheeeh... no wonder we got 9/11... wake up people, and stop believing the stuff you see on CNN..

Go see
http://www.aljazeera.net/ (see what non pro-Israeli news bias looks like..this is the arab CNN,
  press 'English' for English)

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

All the 9/11, "war on terror".., crazy NSA and domestic spying stuff now happening in the is a direct result of *this* issue...so best to learn what is at the root of it all... its the above..

I thought your question at first was innocent. Just another Jew baiter 'eh?

How convenient, the previous poster points out the lack of equal rights given to Arabs in Palestine/Israel areas, and he is immediately labeled a Jew baiter.

Not me, I just hate you fucking Zionists.

For others reading this post:

Keep in mind that Zionists can come from any religion. Here's a good explanation of what a Zionist is:

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Hassan%20El-Najjar/Zion ism,%20the%20highest%20form%20of%20imperialism.htm

A comparison can be made between Christians, and the lunatics on the religious right who call themselves Christians. Feel free to replace "Christians" with the religion of your choice.

As for Jews, peaceful, god-fearing, compassionate Jews, I love them. Not just for their disgust of Zionists either.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

There is no denying that Israel's long-term goal is to completely take over Palestine (as long as Israel is Zionist controlled that is). A cursory look at historical maps from partitioning to now will show how Israel has stolen Palestinian land over the last 60 years.

As an aside, Gaza is beginning to shape up nicely as a Palestinian concentration camp, don't you think?

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/maps/palestine.htm#HIST ORICAL

And for us Americans, just check out the stats over at http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ to see what is really going on.

This is the statistic that concerns me the most, the fact that we empower Zionist butchery and genocide in the name of spreading democracy.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/cost_of_israe l.html

Zionists proudly declare that the salvation of their state came at the hand of God. What they don't say is that it was his hand writing on an American checkbook that actually did the saving.

It kinda puts a different light on the divine will of God, doesn't it?

And wasn't it your people that were treated this same way in WWII as you are treating Palestinians today? Are you not ashamed?

And don't try to justify Israel's imperialism/genocide/apartheid by comparing them to the numerous (as in legion) sins of America either. What our government has done in the past, and what it is doing now, is every bit as bad as what is going on in Israel. That doesn't excuse us, and it hardly provides cover for you.

Ban American/Israeli goods!

I thought your question at first was innocent. Just another Jew baiter 'eh?

How convenient, the previous poster points out the lack of equal rights given to Arabs in Palestine/Israel areas, and he is immediately labeled a Jew baiter.

Not me, I just hate you fucking Zionists.

For others reading this post:

Keep in mind that Zionists can come from any religion. Here's a good explanation of what a Zionist is:

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Hassan%20El-Najjar/Zion ism,%20the%20highest%20form%20of%20imperialism.htm

A comparison can be made between Christians, and the lunatics on the religious right who call themselves Christians. Feel free to replace "Christians" with the religion of your choice.

As for Jews, peaceful, god-fearing, compassionate Jews, I love them. Not just for their disgust of Zionists either.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

There is no denying that Israel's long-term goal is to completely take over Palestine (as long as Israel is Zionist controlled that is). A cursory look at historical maps from partitioning to now will show how Israel has stolen Palestinian land over the last 60 years.

As an aside, Gaza is beginning to shape up nicely as a Palestinian concentration camp, don't you think?

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/maps/palestine.htm#HIST ORICAL

And for us Americans, just check out the stats over at http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ to see what is really going on.

This is the statistic that concerns me the most, the fact that we empower Zionist butchery and genocide in the name of spreading democracy.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/cost_of_israe l.html

Zionists proudly declare that the salvation of their state came at the hand of God. What they don't say is that it was his hand writing on an American checkbook that actually did the saving.

It kinda puts a different light on the divine will of God, doesn't it?

And wasn't it your people that were treated this same way in WWII as you are treating Palestinians today? Are you not ashamed?

And don't try to justify Israel's imperialism/genocide/apartheid by comparing them to the numerous (as in legion) sins of America either. What our government has done in the past, and what it is doing now, is every bit as bad as what is going on in Israel. That doesn't excuse us, and it hardly provides cover for you.

Ban American/Israeli goods!

Um.. The Stern Gang weren't terrorists?

Fact: 122 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 686 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000

Fact: 1,063 Israelis and 3,652 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

Fact: 7,361 Israelis and 29,000 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

This does not excuse terrorism. But that's not the point either. The point is that the Palestinians are at least as much victims of the situation as the Israelis, and your painting of Israel as the sole victim is blatantly false. This is due to US media bias.

The US media consistently reports more on Israeli casualties than Palestinian ones. (There is plenty of research on this, example) Non-US media is more even-handed. (wheras Arab media is strongly biased towards the Palestinian side.)

The international community is also far more critical of Israel's actions than the USA is, evidenced by the over 60 UN resolutions passed against Israel, many of which were opposed only by Israel and the USA.

I'm not agitating against the Israelis here. Israel exists and isn't going to go away, and the israelis certainly have a right to security. But it is impossible to draw the conclusion that Israel is blameless if you look at the situation in an unbiased way.

And the USA needs this more now than ever. The #1 greivance with the USA among Arabs (as shown in opinon polls) is not our religion, or our culture, or our support of their regimes, and certainly not our freedom.

Their #1 greivance is that they feel the USA has no compassion for the sufferings of their Palestinian brethern. This isn't true. I'm American and I'll say the Americans are just as compassionate as any other people out there. The problem is simply that people in the US don't know. Please. Do some in-depth study of the subject (i.e. don't just follow news reports). If you're in the US, get some non-US news. Try the BBC. Try Haaretz (which is more even-handed than most US media, despite being a major Israeli paper). Talk to Israelis and Palestinians. Go there, if you get the chance. (And I mean to Palestine as well.)

I have never been there. But I know 5 people who have (2 arabs, 3 non-arabs, none muslim, although that shouldn't be relevant). None of them condone terrorism. And none of them consider Israel to have any kind of moral high-ground.

You've got to be kidding me. You're right, these people are idiots. If I'm bombing a bus, train, or subway, I'm not going to have some mobile phone activated rig. What if someone dials the wrong number when you turn it on? Oops! Yeah, remote possibility, but it could happen. And of course, they'll find pieces of the phone, find out who bought it, etc, etc. It'll trace back to you. That's just stupid.

No, just load a bag with a bomb, attach a simple timer, board the bus, leave bag under a seat, then exit the bus. Simple yet perfectly synchronized. If someone notices, they're just going to say "Hey buddy, forgot your bag." You pick it up and depending on how much time you have left, either try again or head to a restroom, and detach the timer. This doesn't require high tech anything.

What I've found interesting is all of the information they've discussed which has been captured on all of the public cameras. From what they said today during the various press conferences, any repairs they make will include "that many more" cameras to watch for anyone trying to do this again.

Repairs? What are they going to do, put guns in the cameras? Otherwise, how does a camera stop a real terrorist? It doesn't. It's only going to help determine "who done it" after the fact, if that.

Hey, here's an idea to put an end to terrorism. How about we stop killing their children. They probably wouldn't feel like blowing shit up if we could manage that.

Well.. a Nazi war criminal and, well, Rachel Corrie....

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/invest.html nice bulldozer...

At least people feel good about themselves when they go to bed, I guess.

Have you considered that there might be a reason for the rest of the world to distrust the US? Did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, your presence on the world stage is causing more harm than good? Here's another reality check: the rest of the world does not want you to intervene in its affairs. We'd love it if you just quit the UN. Really. Only that wouldn't stop you from throwing your weight around, would it? So perhaps the thing to do is to stop being childish, and engage with the rest of the world in a productive way, in the forum designed for this very purpose - the United Nations. Hope springs eternal...

Don't judge me - I WOULD rather sell apples if thats what it took to save ONE childs life. I have a heart and I have the courage to admit it.

The US in the Middle East is not the thing holding the economy of my country together, maybe YOURS but not MINE. With regards to the prospect of kids living under a fundamentalist theocracy, you only have to look at history to see the fact that the US has been responsible for a lot of the 'fundamentalist theocracies' when it has suited their energy policies. Again, I say WAKE THE FUCK UP.

Go read this. Then come back and tell me you have half a clue....

The fundamental reason of why they are so semitic nobody really knows; that's what's so great about the jews.

I find it amazing that out of all the responses to this post, there was not one that said I was wrong, although there have been over 10 mod points used to knock me to zero. Is there a Zionist that can justify their views? Or are all of you going to passive/aggressive(ly) disagree by modding? No wonder diplomacy is done with bombs in Israel. You have no basis for your genocide other than Israeli greed. Please, make me understand your position. Give me the intellectual basis for my err. I have tried to understand - I really wanted to support Israel, I mean we give so much money to you guys and take so much shit because of our support for you, I really wanted to get behind the cause. I am obviously missing the point, because all of the research shows you are murdering bastards. Here, look at these stats:

Israeli children dead = 106 | Palestinians children dead = 535 |||| 6322 Israelis dead | 25601 Palestinians dead

This is what "God" wants? This is fair? This is fighting terrorism? This is true anti-semitism.

PLEASE make me understand, if I am so wrong, please tell me why so I don't look like such an ass. My aim isn't to hurt, but to find truth and understanding - if I am wrong and you can show me why then I have learned something.

Hello superyooser.

It's not the Israelies who blow themselves up in buses and kill many innocent children. ...but it is the Israelis who form death squads, torture palestinians and kills civilians in refugee camps.

How do you suggest palestinians should defend themselves? Their land is occupied. They have no army or military capacity that is even a fraction of Israel's. Bear in mind that killing yourself is not an easy choice.

It's not the Israelies who contribute to charities to fund terror groups.

Are you crazy? That would be the United States that is pouring in billions in military aid to Israel.

It's not the Israelies who have a dictatorial government.

The palestinian people have been denied a government for a long time. How do you expect palestinians to organize when Israel denies them that right?

It's not the Israelies who have vowed to wipe their neighbor from the face of the earth.

But the Israelis certainly are in the lead:

________________Israelis____Palestinians
Children Killed _____106____________494
Civilians Killed_____632__________2,317
Assassinations _______1____________297

Bystanders killed
in the course
of Assassination____________________145


It's not the Israelies who are teaching both in schools and mosques their children to hate.

According to a 1977 UNESCO report, Israeli authorities systematically doctored the textbooks on history, geography, and literature used by Palestinian children to eliminate references to Palestine.

So, it should be no surpise that Israelies are at WAR.

It should be no surprise Palestinians are pissed when their country is invaded and occupied!

But the do care if you wish to own a gun. I guess their copy of the Bill of Rights has less adms than mine does.

You are so wrong. Read it and weep. Oh, man, I love this thread.

Oh, yeah, did you see the AC's post to your sig the other day? Israeli/Palestininan Facts

Since you love facts so much and sig (heil) to the neocon party line, here are some facts for you.