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There ya go.

Autonomous cars are cool though because they require no connected political reform, just put all the drivers and cabbies out of work (yey!), and save everyone an hour or so per day (double yey!).

Welcome to 1904.

The Wobs may have been too militant for their own success, but they well understood the nature of the battle. IT and business/knowlege workers today are facing the exactly the same threats to their enjoyment of life now, and will need to decide how to respond or be overwhelmed.

Where the machine is put in, some of the workers move out. One worker with a machine, or a small working force with machinery, will produce more goods than a large working force with hand tools. So that machinery displaces laborers. This is the feature of machinery that secures its installation in industry. But machinery does more than merely throw workmen out of jobs, it renders the versatile skill of the craftsman unnecessary. So the machines have won their way into every industry, and wherever they went less labor was required until eventually the aggregate of these surplus laborers grew to such proportions that there came into existence what is known as the army of unemployed.

At first the unemployed were largely of the mechanical trades, but the invention of new mechanical devices, and the improvement of machinery, which has been going on, has reduced the unemployed to a working class contingent in which the unskilled workers predominate.

Ask the average worker what relation machine production has to unemployment, and you will find that he is unaware of the fact that machinery will explain unemployment. Yet this fact, which is potent enough to be self-evident, is a mystery to the average unionist, let alone to the average working man and woman. The unemployed, even after many experiences, on the average only understand that "the job was shut down" by the boss. It is accepted that the employer has an unquestioned right to shut down industry, regardless of the social consequences.

http://www.iww.org/history/library/iww/isandisnt/6

Autonomous cars are tangential to the conflict, but apportioning the benefits they will bring will require political reform.

"Shoemakers should be run by shoe guys and software firms by software guys." That's called workers' self-management. It is best implemented through industrial unionism, anarcho-syndicalism, or a network of co-operatives.

The problem with corporate capitalism is twofold. One is that management (the so criticized MBAs) have a class interest separate from both owners and workers. There are cases where management will act to retain their own wealth and power even at the expense of overall efficiency. They are also not necessarily the most knowledgeable about the core work of the businesses they run; much of business school is unscientific trendy buzzword compliant model building and improperly contextualized case studies. The business world chants the mantra, "a manager is a manager". The assumption is they can run any firm regardless of actual knowledge of the technical and social aspects of a particular market. Workers end up with clueless destructive bosses.

The other main problem with corporations, from the perspective of the worker, is the market itself. The short term interests of shareholders often drastically differ from the long-term interests of workers, consumers, and society at large. Investors ignore systemic risk that can destroy whole economies, sell off valuable assets and cut R&D for short term gains at the expense of long term viability, move production to whichever nation can do the work with the lowest human rights and environmental protections at tremendous social cost, etc. This system is clearly sub-optimal, to put it mildly.

If workers want to have a say in their conditions and want to retain the value of what they produce without bosses and investors taking most of it away in profits, than we need to organize a union. The time is long overdue for an IT industry union.

If you want good reporting on labor from anything but a business perspective (ie how will this effect share value), you have to look at the media of the labor movement itself, not the corporate owned and controlled mainstream media. On the Metropolis Honeywell workers in particular, I suggest these two episodes of Labor Express radio. Another good source for labor news is the Industrial Worker, the paper of the IWW.

I find your ideas intriguing. I'd like to sign up for your newsletter.

K, NP.
For you dropouts who wanna rockout
Right Coast? Got a platform?
Steampunk and other wonderful things
For the One (not yet) Big Union
Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Left Coast? Doing Being Totally Outta Control?
4chan for anarchists

How do we make US workers competitive in a world where there are billions of people who can live on so much less? Seriously, do you have any suggestions? Can we stop bitching dlbout [sic] the problem and start solving it?

I think you are looking at the wrong problem. The problem is our standard of living. We want to have more leisure time and/or more control of our working conditions. We need better health-care and education and secure place to live without working to death in order to earn it.

We DON't need to be competing with foreign workers. You mentioned Jim Crow. It's a racist jingoism that has convinced Americans that they deserve to profit off of the wages of those in the developing world. We can have a better standard of living when we realize that the Indian programmer has the same interests that we do, and that the Indian's boss and our boss have more in common with each other than with us.

You mentioned the high cost of taxes and of commuting. We need to start living in cities again. Suburban sprawl has cost us both in commuting costs and by atomizing us and keeping us from having a real community. It's simply more efficient to live near more people. With a real community, we wouldn't need the state to provide services. With real community, we wouldn't be duped into funding the terror war and the drug war. The suburbs tend to be the more reactionary conservative parts of the nation, while the urban areas are the more progressive.

You mentioned the labor movement. Real democratic radical unions are the only way workers can gain more power. Imagine if both you and the workers in the developing world were in the same union. International solidarity could prevent corporations from constantly moving production to whichever nation has the worst labor and human rights records. We need democratic accountable unions. Not the AFL/CIO or SEIU or the Teamsters. We need unions like the UE and the IWW.

The ultimate goal should be workers self management of all industry. Wall Street speculators and bosses are in it to make money for themselves in the short term, while workers interests are in creating sustainable jobs with good wages, benefits, and working conditions.

Here's an excellent article on one of the more famous tree-spiking injuries. And remember while reading this that it's written by an environmentalist who *opposes* the practice of tree spiking. Some excerpts:

-----------

L-P has never been known to spend too much time maintaining equipment or worrying about worker safety. But in the weeks preceding the tree spiking incident, conditions had gotten worse than usual. The bandsaw blade was wobbling when it ran, and cracks had begun to appear in it. But when George and other workers complained, Edwards shined them on, saying the new blades were not in yet, and they would have to ma1ke do. "That blade was getting so bad," said George, "That I almost didn't go to work that day." ...

The next thing he knew, George was lying on the floor covered with his own blood. "I knew I was dying. And all I could think about was Dick Edwards, and all the shit he gave me when I complained about the saw. I tried to get up, but they pushed me back down. I tried to beckon to Edwards so he would come close enough for me to get my hands around his throat in a death grip. If I had to die, I wanted to take that bastard with me." ...

LP didn't call the press right away, but when they did they had a field day. "Tree Spiking Terrorism," screamed the headline in the Santa Rosa Press Democrat. And even though there was no evidence that Earth First! was involved, the Eureka Times-Standard proclaimed, Earth First! Blamed for Worker's Injuries." Mendocino County Sheriff Shea put out a widely quoted press release that was almost gleeful in its condemnation.

"This heinous and vicious criminal act is a felony offense, punishable by imprisonment in State Prison for up to three years," he wrote, "Still undetermined in the investigation is the motive of the suspect or suspects, to deter logging operations or inflict great bodily injury and death upon lumber processing personnel," Even Louisiana-Pacific President Harry Merlo got into the fray, blaming "terrorism in the name of environmental goals" for George's injury.

Meanwhile, George and Laurie Alexander had a different take on the incident. "I'm against tree spiking," George told the press from his hospital bed. "But I don't like clearcutting either." Laurie also tried to include L-P in the list of culprits. "I hate L-P," she told me. "I like trees." But the press wouldn't print a word Laurie said, and George's comments about mill safety and clearcutting were mentioned in only one news article, by Eric Brazil of the San Francisco Examiner. ...

No matter what you think of LP's forest practices, this much should be clear: George Alexander is not the enemy. He has no say over his bosses' policies, either in or out of the mill. I have heard Earth First!ers say that doesn't matter, he shouldn't be working at an LP mill. Well, I shouldn't be driving a car either, but that doesn't make it okay to put a bomb in it.

After George refused to go on tour denouncing us, he was forced to return to work at L-P before his injuries even healed. His and Laurie's baby was about to be born, he needed money, and there were not many jobs where he and his family live. George got worker's compensation for the time he was off work, but LP didn't offer him a cent for the trauma and hardship he suffered. They made a big public show of putting up a $20,000-dollar reward for the information leading to the conviction of the spiker, but George Alexander had to file a lawsuit against Louisiana Pacific to get anything at all. And while the company was crying crocodile tears over his injuries in public, in private they were fighting him tooth and nail over his damage claim. He ended up with just $9,000 and an involuntary transfer to night shift. "They used my name all over the country," George told me. "Then they laid me off when the mill closed down."

-----------

My view: Perhaps if the sawmills didn't give

Business unions are sellouts. We need democratic industrial unions.

History is full of women who's contributions have been forgotten. Another one is Lucy Parsons. Her and her husband were anarchist labour leaders in Chicago where they helped organize the events known as the Haymarket Riots which gave the rest of the world May Day.

The Chicago police called her "more dangerous than a thousand rioters" and she was a major influence on labor politics until she died in a house fire in 1942 that also consumed most of her many writings.

In 1905 she wrote this piece for The Liberator, published October 22:

FAMOUS WOMEN OF HISTORY: Florence Nightingale

Amid the general consternation, the minister of war wrote a letter to Miss Nightingale, stating that he considered her the only person in Great Britain capable of bringing order out of confusion, and imploring her to organize and direct the reform of the military hospitals; and this letter was crossed by one from Miss Nightingale, volunteering to place her strength and ability at the service of her nation. Good trained nurses were almost unknown quantities in those days; yet, nothing daunted, Florence Nightingale sailed from England with thirty of the best nurses that she could muster within the week from her letter. In required a good deal of tact to overcome the prejudices and jealousies among the physicians and surgeons at the "womanly prominence" and the conciliate the general disapproval of medical and military officials. For these were the days when it was considered that "the proper place for the woman is at home."

Overcoming professional jealousy, she set herself to the task of cleansing the Augean hospitals containing over 4,000 patients. These barrack hospitals at Scutari, which had been loaned to the British government by the Sultan of Turkey, were 100 feet above the Bosporus. The day before the arrival of the staff of nurses the wounded from Balaclava had been landed; packed in the overcrowded transports, their wounds had not been dressed for five days, and cholera and fever were reaping their fearful harvest. The poor men outside with cold and starvation were faring far better than the sufferers in the tainted wards of the disordered hospitals.

-------------

I got this out of "Lucy Parsons: Freedom, Equality and Solidarity".

Off the top of my head, some other woman who have been mostly forgotten include Elizabeth Gurley Flynn (a co-founder of the ACLU), Ada Lovelace (perhaps earliest programmer), Hedy Lamarr (co-invented spread spectrum wireless communications years before it was technologically practical to implement, but better known for being a babe). How many people here know the name Rosalind Franklin? All of these women and many more excelled in male dominated fields.

History is full of women who's contributions have been forgotten. Another one is Lucy Parsons. Her and her husband were anarchist labour leaders in Chicago where they helped organize the events known as the Haymarket Riots which gave the rest of the world May Day.

The Chicago police called her "more dangerous than a thousand rioters" and she was a major influence on labor politics until she died in a house fire in 1942 that also consumed most of her many writings.

In 1905 she wrote this piece for The Liberator, published October 22:

FAMOUS WOMEN OF HISTORY: Florence Nightingale

Amid the general consternation, the minister of war wrote a letter to Miss Nightingale, stating that he considered her the only person in Great Britain capable of bringing order out of confusion, and imploring her to organize and direct the reform of the military hospitals; and this letter was crossed by one from Miss Nightingale, volunteering to place her strength and ability at the service of her nation. Good trained nurses were almost unknown quantities in those days; yet, nothing daunted, Florence Nightingale sailed from England with thirty of the best nurses that she could muster within the week from her letter. In required a good deal of tact to overcome the prejudices and jealousies among the physicians and surgeons at the "womanly prominence" and the conciliate the general disapproval of medical and military officials. For these were the days when it was considered that "the proper place for the woman is at home."

Overcoming professional jealousy, she set herself to the task of cleansing the Augean hospitals containing over 4,000 patients. These barrack hospitals at Scutari, which had been loaned to the British government by the Sultan of Turkey, were 100 feet above the Bosporus. The day before the arrival of the staff of nurses the wounded from Balaclava had been landed; packed in the overcrowded transports, their wounds had not been dressed for five days, and cholera and fever were reaping their fearful harvest. The poor men outside with cold and starvation were faring far better than the sufferers in the tainted wards of the disordered hospitals.

-------------

I got this out of "Lucy Parsons: Freedom, Equality and Solidarity".

Off the top of my head, some other woman who have been mostly forgotten include Elizabeth Gurley Flynn (a co-founder of the ACLU), Ada Lovelace (perhaps earliest programmer), Hedy Lamarr (co-invented spread spectrum wireless communications years before it was technologically practical to implement, but better known for being a babe). How many people here know the name Rosalind Franklin? All of these women and many more excelled in male dominated fields.

It's time to start a union how long before more stuff comes up that cut's you pay.

What the hell, how is this trolling? Just because there is a big chunk of libertarians rolling around in Slashdot doesn't make this an invalid observation.

To those who agree, consider organizing shop-by-shop initially via the 'Wobbly Method' (checkout http://iww.org/ for a union that shares your independence and belief in autonomy)

I am a member of the IWW; which might be considered by some to be a radical union mostly geared towards those who work manual labor; however, I joined the wobblies as a sysadmin because it is hard to find IT worker unions and the only serious engineering unions I know of are those afforded all academic folk. Does anyone here on Slashdot belong to any unions dedicated to protecting us engineering and IT folk, or is it time to find one? The AFL-CIO's power derives from the long manifest of its varying industries and we too might be better to unite under a single banner to fight for those rights that we think ought to be universal like affordable medical care, reasonable minimum wage laws and perhaps a maximum wage as well.

The IWW has never endorsed any political party or theory. In the past, there were some pretty rowdy arguments between the commie/socialist types and the anarchist types in the IWW. In practice, our philosophy is classed as Anarcho-syndicalism.

As for the origin of the term wobbly, the official position of the IWW is: we don't know. But there are some interesting theories on that page. By the way, I helped make the IWW the second union on the web.(The Israeli Teachers union was first, by a few months.) I also helped with the world's first cyber-picket against Border's Books, and helped defend against the DDoS they or their agents launched in counter-attack.

As for the lingo, back in the depression, the IWW was very tight with the hobo culture and organized massive free speech protests all over the country, encouraging indigents to hop trains or hitch to get there. The IWW was also among the first in the front lines protecting the rights of migrant workers. Some of the worst beat-downs the IWW got were defending migrant workers. Basically, Wobs, hobos, and migrant workers go way back.

Well damn. That's a kick in the pants, but don't think I haven't thought it before. I had even taken martial arts before that, have been in other fights, and come out on top. Deadalus, I could so easily hate you for implying what you just did, but I don't. In fact, in some weird way, I am now over all the other shit that has passed between us here, as well, and am actually starting to like you. I've thought all that, but no one has ever had the balls mention it.

I said "taken" rather than "lost" for a reason, you insensitive clod. "Taken" implies that I resisted, that it was taken by force. "Lost" implies that, oops, I misplaced the fucking thing. Way to read "hippie liberal pacifist" into a situation where it doesn't apply. Not that I don't put out that vibe. Dude.

Truth is, I was at an Industrial Workers of the World union meeting earlier that night. Talking about solidarity, how all people who worked for a living and created all the value in our economy should band together to protect our interests regardless of race. I'd been on a picket line all that day, fighting for some fellow workers who were being denied the right to bargain collectively. And before you scream, "Unions? Fucking leaches!" read up on the IWW, because that's what they were saying in 1904.

The truth is, it will take the best ideas from socialist anarchism and individualist anarchism to make anarchism work. If you are really about "No coercive government" then don't dismiss me. I've been interacting with you for a reason.

Contrast that with how immigrants are treated in the USA these days... I understand there were huge anti-immigration rallies in the USA last week.

Hey, just curious- I don't suppose you're actually a Wobblie, are you? You know, like a member of the IWW? If so- greetings, Fellow Worker! Don't suppose you'll be at the Midwest Wobfest this weekend, will you?

I'm in my country's equivalent to IWW http://www.iww.org/...Being a wobbly techie type works absolutely fine...even better, you can stay in the "one big union" even if you change jobs or assignments..i get legal help (and supply some as i go along and learn labour law), i get camaraderie, and i get to meet'n chat with all sorts of people of all classes and professions, hell it even helped me get hints in employment opportunities. Nothing is stopping you from joining the union I realise i sound like a union-bot right about now, but it's that good, noone should stand alone, no matter their profession.

"If there ever was an organization dedicated to mediocrity, impeding productivity and forcing people to be on strike and not earning money when they want to, a union would be it."

So form a directly democratic union, like the IWW. Then nobody can force you to do anything.

The big unions suck the same way most companies and governments suck. Nobody listens to you, you have no real power, and the people at the top are out to take you for whatever they can.

The real question is when people are going to realize that in a world of Multinational Corporations, unions need to be multinational as well. If tech people around the world actually stood together then all of them would be better off.

The IWW is a decent model. The best part is that they never use union dues for political contributions.

For anyone whose interested... Some good starting points for more information include: IWW Electronic Communication Workers and Washington Alliance of Technology Workers (WashTec). I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone might have.

James - Computer Science student and union member

What company pays negative tax rates? Do you have a link for that (that isn't mother jones or IWW or some other nonsense)?

Obviously the previous poster didn't mean negative tax rates. What was meant was some companies have received more in subsidies than they pay in taxes. Due to all it's fancy accounting tricks. Enron pulled this neat trick off in 4 of the 5 years from 1996-2000. Here is a link.

Of course, considering your slap at any information provided by Mother Jones, IWW, or such "nonsense", you'll probably consider the previous link "nonsense", too.

If you fix senior management's compensation and do not tie it to the financial performance of the company in some way, what type of management do you think you'll get? A style that is focused on increasing shareholder value?

I know this flies in the face of conservative orthodoxy, but "increasing shareholder value" is not the only reponsibility corporations have, though they desperately want it to be. By living in my community, I derive benefits from that community, and the community should expect that I give back to the community to a certain degree. The same logic must hold true for corporations. If it doesn't, you are giving the corporation free rein to move into a community (receiving property tax abatements), drive local competitors out of business, pollute the environoment, overwork the workers while driving down wages, and then, when more profits can be made elsewhere, close shop and leave, taking all the money with it.

Is this the kind of neighbor you want?

Finding somebody who wants to be a senior VP isn't difficult, finding somebody who is good at is, that's why the salaries for those positions are so inflated.

The salaries are so inflated mainly for three reasons:

1. There's a artificial limit on the supply. Unless you have an MBA from the "right" school and friends in the "right" places, you need not apply.
2. The boards of directors of compaines (which set executive salaries) are one big clique. Look at the median salary (exec salaries are public knowledge) for the position, and say, "Our guys are better than average!" So they raise the salary of the VP to be above the median, which raises the median. Next board comes along and does the same thing. And so on. And so on.
3. It is a difficult job, and many who try fail. But those that fail can usually rely on friends to find them enough work so that they will be properly, financially taken care of.

• Maybe game coders should consider joining the AFL-CIO or the...
• 
  I read the new story at 22 posts, did this bit of research, made a post about free range chicken, $11.53 an hour, browsed a most of these posts which seem to be mostly rehash of arguements/comments from earlier this week and now find this post may be number 308. But this post is mouthful.

• Communications Workers IU560 Who We Are We are members of the Industrial Workers of the World who work in the electronic communications industry. Our organization is open to All workers engaged in telephone, telegraph, radio, television, satellite communication, and computer operation, including programming, and networking.
• IWW Join a union with branches in India, Bulgaria, Poland, and England? One that is calling for the 4 hour work week and the 4 hour work day?

• IWW US Locations California has locals in Los Angeles GMB, Sacramento, San Diego. San Francisco Bay Area GMB & IU 670, San Jose, Santa Barbara GMB, Sonoma County or Start Your Own IWW Branch. This section also includes information on how to recruit new members, how to hold and run successful meetings, and how to deal with sensitive issues, such as diversity and burnout.

• IWW COMPUTER WORKERS UK

  AFL-CIO
  

• Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, Communications Workers of America, Local 37083, AFL-CIO articles at A Voice for the Digital Workforc include Microsoft to double size of India facilities, Unions begin to struggle in Europe, Outsourcing to Arkansas, Job Numbers Mask Continuing Deindustrialization, Slowdown Forces Many to Wander for Work, Students Fight Copyright Hoarders, Welcome to the risk economy and An Industry in India Cheers Bush's Victory.

• Maybe game coders should consider joining the AFL-CIO or the...
• 
  I read the new story at 22 posts, did this bit of research, made a post about free range chicken, $11.53 an hour, browsed a most of these posts which seem to be mostly rehash of arguements/comments from earlier this week and now find this post may be number 308. But this post is mouthful.

• Communications Workers IU560 Who We Are We are members of the Industrial Workers of the World who work in the electronic communications industry. Our organization is open to All workers engaged in telephone, telegraph, radio, television, satellite communication, and computer operation, including programming, and networking.
• IWW Join a union with branches in India, Bulgaria, Poland, and England? One that is calling for the 4 hour work week and the 4 hour work day?

• IWW US Locations California has locals in Los Angeles GMB, Sacramento, San Diego. San Francisco Bay Area GMB & IU 670, San Jose, Santa Barbara GMB, Sonoma County or Start Your Own IWW Branch. This section also includes information on how to recruit new members, how to hold and run successful meetings, and how to deal with sensitive issues, such as diversity and burnout.

• IWW COMPUTER WORKERS UK

  AFL-CIO
  

• Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, Communications Workers of America, Local 37083, AFL-CIO articles at A Voice for the Digital Workforc include Microsoft to double size of India facilities, Unions begin to struggle in Europe, Outsourcing to Arkansas, Job Numbers Mask Continuing Deindustrialization, Slowdown Forces Many to Wander for Work, Students Fight Copyright Hoarders, Welcome to the risk economy and An Industry in India Cheers Bush's Victory.

• Maybe game coders should consider joining the AFL-CIO or the...
• 
  I read the new story at 22 posts, did this bit of research, made a post about free range chicken, $11.53 an hour, browsed a most of these posts which seem to be mostly rehash of arguements/comments from earlier this week and now find this post may be number 308. But this post is mouthful.

• Communications Workers IU560 Who We Are We are members of the Industrial Workers of the World who work in the electronic communications industry. Our organization is open to All workers engaged in telephone, telegraph, radio, television, satellite communication, and computer operation, including programming, and networking.
• IWW Join a union with branches in India, Bulgaria, Poland, and England? One that is calling for the 4 hour work week and the 4 hour work day?

• IWW US Locations California has locals in Los Angeles GMB, Sacramento, San Diego. San Francisco Bay Area GMB & IU 670, San Jose, Santa Barbara GMB, Sonoma County or Start Your Own IWW Branch. This section also includes information on how to recruit new members, how to hold and run successful meetings, and how to deal with sensitive issues, such as diversity and burnout.

• IWW COMPUTER WORKERS UK

  AFL-CIO
  

• Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, Communications Workers of America, Local 37083, AFL-CIO articles at A Voice for the Digital Workforc include Microsoft to double size of India facilities, Unions begin to struggle in Europe, Outsourcing to Arkansas, Job Numbers Mask Continuing Deindustrialization, Slowdown Forces Many to Wander for Work, Students Fight Copyright Hoarders, Welcome to the risk economy and An Industry in India Cheers Bush's Victory.

In quebec, because the workers movement have been strong at some point, there is a lot of laws to protect workers, and the company is supposed to protect their worker from all kind of problems. Also, there is a sorta 50% unionization rate in here, which mean that you'll probably be part of an union if you work here, and can use the money from your union to sue the company.

Otherwise, a solution can be to join the local branch of the IWW , which is mainly an open membership union, which can help you for free, if you demonstrate some interest in the labour movement, by showing up to meetings and stuff. This is also a good way of learning a lot about your state labour rights.

The second aspect would be US labor history, something those of us who work are all part of, like it or not. I think there is enormous benefit to IT workers organizing together, bargaining collectively, striking if necessary and so forth. On the other hand, the official AFL-CIO unions like the CWA have in my view have had a role of dampening some of the power of this energy. The CWA bureaucrats will lay much of this off on US government restrictions on unions (which are probably the most draconian in the industrialized world), which is true to a large extent, but they share some of the blame.

Anyhow, just go to alt.computer.consultants on Usenet (or Google) to join in communication with other IT workers about various issues. Or mailing lists like Techs Unite. And the Programmers Guild has meetings in various cities, as do the CWA. If you're in the Bay Area, you might want to check out the IWW - they have put out some interesting things. They are also very militant, which is always good for jumpstarting things. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither are worker organizations, including skilled worker organizations.

What you should do is to get in contact with a union with experience in trying to get a foot in at new places, and organizes people from all lines of work, like the IWW.

(Being from Sweden I don't know much about US unions, but it's a start)

correct link

Here is a post from the IWW news mailing list that includes the text of an article from the Seattle Post-Intelligencer about the case. In fact the details dealt with butchers rather than deli workers (a deli may sell precut/prepared meats exclusively thus not requiring butchers).

well you have the IWW which was born in the USA and has always been internationalist.

Adam Smith was a naive economic and political theorist who overestimated human goodness, and underestimated human greed when he wrote The Wealth of Nations, aka, the capitalist manifesto. Capitalism is an economic theory, not a religion. Those who have made it a religion, and made the 7 deadly sins virtues, are destroying society.

Well then, we should be trying as hard as we can to destroy or disable the Governing Body that makes such stupid proposals.

It's REALLY the only way for our politicians to get a clue.

And please stop flogging the dead horse, hes/she did nothing to you. But politcians have ...

Unionization has worked pretty well for us under the situation described here. As to unions sucking, my experience is that really depends on the union in question. My union - Industrial Workers of the World - is fairly small, so it doesn't have all the resources a large union has for dealing with a large employer, but it is run on a grass-roots democratic basis and has constitutional bars from spending money on political measures. Its dues are also trivially low (the absolute highest rate is $18/month). I've never heard of Wobblies being made to go on strike or otherwise do anything that they didn't decide on at the local level.

It may be illegal, but Bush and his cohorts are trying to legalize it, and good luck getting current laws enforced with Bushites running the DOL. Unionize and strike. I recommend the IWW.

Easy.

Joe Hill.

Any Utah-hater worth his salt'd know that one!

(Actually, for the record, I don't completely hate Utah. It just can be frustrating at times. Whoever has that .sig about "democracy dies behind closed doors" has it right. So very right.)

- Blenderfish

The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of the working people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life.

Between these two classes a struggle must go on until the workers of the world organize as a class, take possession of the means of production, abolish the wage system, and live in harmony with the Earth.

We find that the centering of the management of industries into fewer and fewer hands makes the trade unions unable to cope with the ever growing power of the employing class. The trade unions foster a state of affairs which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping defeat one another in wage wars. Moreover, the trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers.

These conditions can be changed and the interest of the working class upheld only by an organization formed in such a way that all its members in any one industry, or in all industries if necessary, cease work whenever a strike or lockout is on in any department thereof, thus making an injury to one an injury to all.

Instead of the conservative motto, "A fair day's wage for a fair day's work," we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, "Abolition of the wage system."

It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production must be organized, not only for everyday struggle with capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old.

...the Industrial Revolution (the 72 hr. workweek, sweatshop conditions, etc.) because the rich people who own the businesses are nice, did you? (Come to think of it, many programmers have never really left the Industrial Revolution.) Unions were one of the major ways people got important occupational well-being, health, and safety regulations passed.

Just because we work with futuristic technology doesn't mean we must be completely ignorant of the past. Look up some labour history sometime, why don't you? Here is a link to a local IWW chapter dealing almost exclusively with IT workers. Granted, the IWW is the most left-leaning and fanatically political union around, but they have a fascinating history, and might be worth a look for interest's sake, if nothing else. Here is a link to the union which represents unionized programmers in Canada, the CEP/SCEP. So apparently not all programmers think unions are a bad thing.

...the Industrial Revolution (the 72 hr. workweek, sweatshop conditions, etc.) because the rich people who own the businesses are nice, did you? (Come to think of it, many programmers have never really left the Industrial Revolution.) Unions were one of the major ways people got important occupational well-being, health, and safety regulations passed.

Just because we work with futuristic technology doesn't mean we must be completely ignorant of the past. Look up some labour history sometime, why don't you? Here is a link to a local IWW chapter dealing almost exclusively with IT workers. Granted, the IWW is the most left-leaning and fanatically political union around, but they have a fascinating history, and might be worth a look for interest's sake, if nothing else. Here is a link to the union which represents unionized programmers in Canada, the CEP/SCEP. So apparently not all programmers think unions are a bad thing.

Your direction of thought is good, but I dont quite think you understand the internet if your asking those questions, for example...

What about information on a HTML page - with no links leading to it?

That is BY DEFINITION public. If your running a web SERVER, your intent is obviously to make data accesible. If you cant figure out not to put your PIN number on a web page, you need to do some more reading. You have to EXPLICITLY allow a certain port to be open, and to resond with public data. Why you think this should be private is beyond me. If you spray paint your PIN number on your car in big yellow numbers, isnt it obvious that other people are going to read it, even though its not public because its 'on' your car?

For instance, is unencrypted email now public information?

If you ever thought that unencrytped mail was ever private, umm...Ive got some bad news for you. Think of email as a postcard, yes its addressed to someone else, but anyone who happens to be around in the travels of that postcard really has no problem reading it. Once again, do NOT put your PIN number in an email

The fact that this still needs explaining bothers me a great deal.

Perhaps the "Don't Rape" sign should really go on the Constitution - particularly the Fourth Amendment.

This, however, I agree with

But, whats the reason this happens? Why do they do this? Answer: Because they can! I mean your sitting her postulating in a comfy chair how this applies to the internet, while this crap is probably going on in your home town...go talk to your librarians about it, they will be glad to let you in on all the wonderful stuff that is being done now, oh wait, its a felony for them to tell you.

solidarity forever

For all the problems that labor unions may have, they are the only organizations that working class people have, and if they never existed, most Americans would be in the position that Chinese workers are in now, lots of work, little pay, and zero rights. And with more companies like Microsoft and Intel moving jobs to communist China (these are capitalist businesses?), we might be in that position soon.

Businesses run by geeks aren't like other businesses, and a union run by geeks wouldn't be like other unions. That's the point, we can organize for our own interests, and make our union however we want it.

Or, we can compete with H1Bs getting half of what we make, and too scared of deportation to raise their voice at work.

Don't like a "union" - fine, call it a guild, or a professional association, the principle is the same.

Maybe something like Local 23

War Resisters League
American Friends Service Committee
Friends Committee on National Legislation
Education for Peace in Iraq Center
Peace Action
Industrial Workers of the World

NOW IS THE TIME TO OPPOSE THIS WAR! SILENCE IS COMPLICITY!

What about a telecommunication and computer workers union? Not a trade union, but an industrial union?

http://www.iww.org/iu560/

If you live in a state that does not recognize your rights, you're left with what's in the contract. Of course, many people aren't confident enough to individually bargain such details of their contract, and many companies have a strict policy of one policy for all employees. What to do in that case? Well, your options are to find another employer or to collectively bargain a contract, or to collectively try to get a law passed to recognize your rights.

How does one collectively bargain a contract or collectively work to get a law passed? Well, you get together with coworkers and other in the same industry and either pressure employers to get them to the bargaining table or you lobby politicians to get a bill. Call me a cynic, but given that your employer and top management has more money than all the employees put together, I wouldn't count on getting a law passed by traditional $lobbying$. Either way, though, what we're talking about is a union. I'd recommend checking out WashTech or the IWW.

RUSSLELL NELSON: you are a goat fucker and a libertarian. Sorry for being so redundant today. Sorry for being so redundant today. SOLIDARITY FOREVER!

solidarity forever!

An Injury to One is an Injury to All

I agree with the general idea of agreeing with posts which agree with my agrements, agreed?

In other news, join the IWW.

suck my Industrial Union!