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You're talking about the original US, not the current bankrupt corporation?

http://www.serendipity.li/jsmi...

You mean the original US where only white male land owners could vote? sounds like status quo to me, only the wealthy have had power in this country from the beginning to now.

You're talking about the original US, not the current bankrupt corporation? http://www.serendipity.li/jsmi...

Sorry, no.

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm

Here's one example:

In October 2004 in Caracas, Venezuela, a fire in a 56-story office tower burned for more 17 hours and spread over 26 floors. Two floors collapsed, but the underlying floors did not, and the building remained standing.

See http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/18/world/main649824.shtml

Well, none of that is exactly good news.

Words classified as hate crime, holocaust denial, incitement, disturbing the peace, etc. are criminalized too.

Many of these places also claim to support free speech. What an absolute joke.

Freedom of speech should not be confused with the absolute freedom of speech. It has long been limited where it is considered to be harmful to others, as the right to not have undue harm done to you is considered nearer to absolute than your right to freedom of speech or expression. Where that line is drawn, however, has continually moved and may indeed err to far on the side of "harmlessness".

"... the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

-- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859. http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/jsmill.htm

Take it as you will.

Parent post is lifted pretty much verbatim from here: http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm

God forbid people post their own thoughts on Slashdot.

Two things your logic misses. First you've completely ignored the fact that the profits from drugs are used to finance the war. It isn't just the Taliban who are trading dope for military hardware. The drug trade is a perfect way for the government and companies to launder money. Here is a link to a PBS article that details a small, ACKNOWLEDGED portion of the process.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/special/us.html

The PBS article talks about legit goods like appliances and automobiles. The arms market is a whole other beast. The CIA and other agencies use drugs to fund operations that they can't go to Congress for.

Here's an article about how the CIA was involved in running drugs through Arkansas.

http://www.serendipity.li/cia/hayes2.html

The other thing that I think you should consider is that the farmers need an alternate crop. As others have stated, there isn't much that will grown in Afghanistan. They could grow hemp though. In my mind, and I've said it before, it would be great to switch them from opium to hemp. Opium has one use. It is a pain killer. Hemp has multiple uses. The way I conceived of it working, the UN or US or whoever would buy the opium for a few years while the transition takes place. Once the farmers start growing hemp, they could sell to local markets in the provincial capitols. The capitols could start to build infrastructure to use the hemp. Hemp can be turned into cloth for clothing. The oil can be used for cooking and heating. The farmers could be allowed to grow marijuana too. It's about time that people pull their heads of their asses regarding marijuana prohibition. It isn't the best substance in world for your body, but it isn't any worse than cigarettes or alcohol. The added benefit of hemp is that it encourages companion industries like textiles.

When they agreed to censor the internet in China, their excuse was "If we don't do this, somebody else will."

The excuse was more that "if you don't do this, you will not do business in China". It's pretty normal that only businesses that follow the laws of a country are allowed to do business in that countries. China is not afraid to block Google or any other website for that matter.

That pretty much puts the lie to their "Do No Evil" motto.

It's "Don't be evil" not "Do no evil". If you're trying to criticize a company's motto at least get the motto right; or did you learn everything about what Google does via discussion sites rather than news, reputable blogs, or your own research?

Google needs to decide whether they really want to "do no evil" or whether they just want to make a profit. They really can't have it both ways. And by traditional Western ethical standards, censorship is EVIL.

Do you consider Germany and France to be evil? They both require censorship of Nazi and WWII-related stuff (see here). I may not agree with it, but I can see why they do it; is it really "evil", and will you apply the same standard to them that you are applying to Google? What if one nation decided that the age of consent for making pornography is 19 instead of 18? Is that censorship evil? The Netherlands uses 16 instead of 18, making some of their porn illegal in most of the rest of the world (see here). There are apparently plans to change this to match other countries, but the point still stands; are all the non-Netherlands countries evil? I don't think you've really thought out your position; it's not black and white and there is a lot of complexity in laws and ethics.

Also, western values are not the last word for the world. If you want other countries to be more like us, you're better off trying to convince them why they should adopt those values, rather than advocating that our companies should ignore their laws. Breaking their laws could easily just strengthen their resolve and make them hate westerners more.

Disclaimer: I am a Google employee, but I cite my sources. Feel free to make up your own mind. These are my own opinions and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.

Oh come on... We've done a lot better than that lately.

No, no I don't know that they have problems. You have presented little to no proof they have problems. So your suggestion is that they not only wiretap the whole US but also break into every e-mail account they suspect of terrorist activity?

Taking it a bit further, contrary to the claims of "startling" revelations in the simplicity of Al Quaeda counter intelligence techniques it should be of no surprise. And who in the United States intelligence agencies claimed the NSA was not capable of and did not crack these pathetic techniques?

What I'm sure is only a small percentage of the information available in the September 11 Commission report suggests there were bureaucratic blunders rather than outright intelligence failings.

While a wire tap into every phone connected to a super computer for analysis works wonders in a Bat Man movie, somehow I doubt it would be that simple or that effective in real life. I don't recall anyone in Gotham city speaking Arabic or using code words. And more importantly, how many innocent people would have their rights violated not just by the wiretapping but by further investigation and false accusations, and how often would such activity be used for ulterior political motives?

The fact is the now public knowledge of Al Quaeda intelligence techniques tells us nothing of the NSA's capabilities or how much they really knew prior to September 11th and illegally wire-tapping an entire nation is likely no silver bullet that will prevent future attacks and as history has shown will likely be used for political reasons.

Total: Russia #1, then the US, then France.
Per capita: Isreal #1, then Russia, France, Sweden, Malta, Switzerland, then US at #7.
By pct. of GDP: #1 is Russia, then Uzbekistan, Jordan, Isreal, Macedonia..US is 16. Under Canada and the UK.

Source:http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_con_arm_exp-military-conventional-arms-exports

Nope. USA is #1. And aside from supplying arms, there's the long, long, long history of the CIA's meddling in other countries' affairs.

I was stating that the so called "good guys", the nations who objected to the Iraq invasion, were only protecting their own illegal trade.

Oh, of course it was for their own interests (as opposed to ours), it couldn't possibly be due to the facts (which we ignored).

Where was your righteous indignation when Clinton sent troops to Somalia, Haiti, and Kosovo?

And do let us know where and when Clinton lied about Somalia, Haiti and Kosovo being an imminent threat to the U.S. and pursing nuclear weapons, when he knew for a fact that wasn't the case. Until then, your examples couldn't be more pathetic and less relevant.

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm

The downward statistical trend in US education begins with the secularization of schools in the 60's. Also, creationists tend to home-school their children, and home-schooled children seem to outperform their peers in public school. (I say "seem" because there are some issues in regards to data collection.) So, your first bullet point doesn't hold H2O.

I haven't received abstinence-only education, but I got the "safe sex" course taught the pro-prophylactic crowd; it seems to operate under the delusion that "you're gonna do it anyway" -- I guess it's a good thing they don't use that logic about murder, huh? "Johnny, if you're going to go for the jugular, make sure to sharpen your knife!" It's not unlike the pre-criminal reasoning that's helping to throttle American society (P2P, security at airports, tax laws, etc.) Maybe both sides have a screw loose, I don't know.

As for the War on Drugs: it's too bad this book is out of print, but an excerpt can be found here. It details the most successful drug enforcement agency in the US... and it was killed by the FBI in order to start the War on Drugs. Let's face it, liberals won't be able to end the WOD without conservatives' help, and this book provides the reasons that conservatives would listen to.

Well I would fix the following things: http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm http://www.teamlaw.org/control.htm http://www.commonlawvenue.com/Summaries/02-eliminate_taxes.htm http://whatreallyhappened.wikia.com/wiki/Tax_Protection http://whatreallyhappened.wikia.com/wiki/Church_Legal_Protections There's another one I found but I have since lost about how the "law of 1812" that the District of Columbia was founded as the Corporation UNITED STATES OF AMERICA as opposed to the organic entity "united states of America" in the original documents. That this was a corporation owned by the London banks that were lending the "us government" money. And as such, the government in any kind of constitutional means ceased to exist in 1812. It technically only has jurisdiction over Washington DC. When you are asked if you are a U.S. Citizen, after 1812, you are implying that you are a citizen of DC and thus under the rules of the corporation. I will find the source and include it later. Althought IANAL... but if this is true, then I'm glad I'm not, cause they're in on it. I would definitely get to the bottom of this though.

-FL

- how many fighter jet scrambles to intercept commercial planes happened in the US in the year before 9/11? now this seems like an easy question, yet Popular mechanics completely deceives its readers in its so called "debunk" by stating that there was only 1... in actual fact there was on average more than ONE PER WEEK!: "# Not only were no NORAD intercept planes scrambled for well over half an hour after the first plane gave indications of trouble at 8:17 am, NONE were ever scrambled to defend DC and P-56, the most protected air space in the country.
* Available planes in Canada were not scrambled, which regularly protect New York air space.
* Available planes at Andrews AFB and Anacostia NAS proximate to DC were not scrambled.
* Planes scrambled from Langley AFB, 130 miles south of DC, were sent to NYC and asked to confirm the hit on the Pentagon on the way there.
* In addition, planes scrambled from Otis AFB in CT, sent too late to intercept the two NY attack planes, turned to intercept Flight AA77 headed to DC and were called back.
* Fighter pilots from Pomona AFB in Atlantic City, NJ, on military maneuvers, within sight of the first tower burning in NYC were called back to base.
* Planes in the air over North Carolina, based out of Andrews AFB were not tasked.
Normal response time in over 65 other air emergencies in the year before 9/11, in far less serious
circumstances, was an average of 6-10 minutes. On 9/11 the time stretched to over an hour.

"

see here for a rundown of the deceptions and lies in this "debunk": http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_po pular_mechanics.htm

Now I would like to know your answer to this first question and one follow on one: (roughly) how many times in the year before 9/11 were planes in the US scrambled to intercept "wayward" aircraft? is this what the mainstream media tells you when "debunking" 9/11 CT's?

(by the way, it was all over the map to give anyone interested more starting points, but again I can see how this looks to someone with said worldview, I just dont really care. Hell just pick one and address it?)

Err, *some* drug dealers end up incarcerated.... Others end up in charge of the country.

http://www.serendipity.li/cia/bush-cheney-drugs.ht m
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1706934

I'm talking, of course, about the CIA.

Shouldn't we be concerned about the CIA's feelings? How are they supposed to assassinate people and overthrow governments without their black ops slushfund? You know, the one mostly composed of illict drug money from the CIA's drug smuggling activities?

Won't somebody PLEASE think of the CIA??!!!

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pentagon/spencer/pen tstrike3.gif

Huh? Isn't Snopes in the business of debunking claims? Or did you misword your sentence: what I think you were trying to say is that it is easier (and requires less credibility) to make a claim, and it's harder to debunk it?

Whatever you meant, I think it has more to do with *who* made the claim. If we are told, let's say, that Silverstein, owner of the WTC bldgs., "pulled" them on purpose to collect the his insurance policy by Fox News we'd probably believe that over a bunch of web sites saying 19 arab crazys hijacked a plane with a box cutter, somehow managed to avoid NORAD, outflew fighter jets, hit the towers dead on, and the pentagon, and they exploded and collapsed.

As for Snopes, I like the site overall, but Mikkelson really fell down on the job as far as 911, especially with her bias (see the rather odd personal nicknames at the bottom of each article). Many of the "rumors" she has as false simply because that's what she read in the 911 Commission Report, which claimed to investigate every single scrap of evidence, yet somehow forgot to investigate why WTC 7 collapsed. Others that she has marked as unsubstantiated can easily be verified by querying Google to find severable reputable news services. Her source, whatever it is, says otherwise. And sometimes does not even include interesting, verified, reports - for example she has the govt certified report of the cheering Arabs, but stunningly neglects to mention the 6 Israeli agents who were seen cheering and "high fiving" as they filmed the towers burning, and were subsequently mysteriously released. So Forget Snopes. Start here, at this excellent site: http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/index.html

2) Join the NRA and learn how to protect yourself and your family _AND_ buy at least 20-30,000 rounds of ammo.

I'm all for gun ownership. I think the statistic is that members of households with guns are three times more likely to be the victim of a homicide than non-gun households, so, by all means... stock up.

--- SER

Larry Silverstein admits they pulled WTC7. The two main towers were hit by planes, yes. But WTC7 fell just from the fire. Probably an attempt to make it look possible that steel-frame buildings can collapse from fire.

In truth, they do not.

Ah, but none of the buildings mentioned above were struck by a 390,000 pound aircraft traveling at 350+ m.p.h., right? Well, each of the Twin Towers was still standing 50 minutes after being hit, so it was not the impacts which caused them to collapse.

This building, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4263667.stm, burned for TWO DAYS without collapsing.

The engineers of WTC said they were engineered to withstand multiple airline impacts.

I could go on, but it's probably futile:

The idea that elements of the US government were responsible for planning and carrying out acts which killed about 3000 people is so outrageous that most people (most Americans, at least) reject it reflexively. But it is precisely because it is so outrageous that the perps assumed that no-one except a few fringe thinkers would ever take it seriously, and that they would get away with this act of mass murder.

Its the republicans fault, like the democrats never infringed on the rights of private citizens?

they also get access (being old steady allies) to really fancy avionics and electronics packages which have no peer in the world of weaponry

But which do not manage to intercept 4 big planes flying around for over an hour. There may of course be other explanations for this.

http://www.serendipity.li/fe/ch_car_bomb.htm says Today's 6.3 billion human beings have around 775 million motor vehicles to fuel, repair, park and run, almost exclusively using petroleum and natural gas.

And as a followup: Waco http://www.serendipity.li/waco.html

Last I checked those happened in the US.

like the FBI has never killed anyone whom they were snooping on?

*No roads
And what do you call what we have now? I call it "rocks, holes, and unofficial speedbumps". I'm considering throwing in the towel on trying to maintain an SUV, for gods sake, because I can't drive regularly without something getting screwed up on it: shock absorbers, electrical problems, etc.

*No police protection
Good. The last instance of "police protection" I received was being pulled over and ticketed $20 for not wearing a seatbelt. I'd pay not to get that kind of "protection".

*No fire departments
We've had three cases here recently of firemen getting caught starting fires. Two weeks ago there were twelve mysterious grassfires all over the state in one day. And guess who put them out? Volunteer fire departments.

*No primary or secondary education
        *As a result of which, 90% of our middle class would be being paid substinance level wages, working 12-16 hour days to be able to eat. You know, like we did before we enacted regulations to stop that shit.
You can get an education without the help of the government. And if you're too dumb to do so, you're better off working 12 hours a day, because it would be wasted on you. By the way, my mother has a college degree, and works 10 hours a day in a factory, so let's not pretend that education has much to do with working conditions or job availability.

*No military, so we'd likely be part of China by now
If I had back the taxes that I pay and freedoms that I sacrifice to support all the ridiculous US military excursions around the globe, I'd do just fine defending my country the way it was intended to be defended: by citizens, not by mercenaries. As it is, the US government more often attacks US citizens and creates terrorists and dictators than protects us from foreign threats. And the Chinese nuclear arsenal was built by a man educated through the generosity of the US taxpayer. So, no, I don't exactly see how my taxes are being used to protect us from China, or anyone else.

*No social security, so we'd have elderly people competing for jobs in order to live
I don't give a shit. Young people compete for jobs in order to live. There's nothing magical about the elderly that makes them immune to the decisions they have made in their lifetime, good and bad. Life sucks, you have 70 years to learn to deal with it. If you haven't done so by then, tough. Don't expect to impose your stupidity on future generations.

*A large homeless problem, as elderly people will frequently lose the competition
Elderly people can live with their families, like they have done for thousands of years. Those without families should have that much more retirement money to live off of.

*A much lower expected lifespan, due to the above and lack of medicaid
Yeah well everybody dies. Get over yourself. And lifespan is more affected by improvements in healthcare for the young than by using the elderly as an excuse to ruin the economy.

*Garbage all over, since we wouldn't have garbage pickup and people would refuse to pay
I have (private) garbage pickup. And I pay for it. And if I didn't, it would get burnt in an incinerator or buried in the backyard, which is exactly what the garbage people do with it anyways.

"Oh wait, it's only "right-wing" views that have to be balanced."

If that's true, it's because only "right-wing" views exist. The old rule was that all polictical and controversial opinions had to be balanced. Now that the rule is gone, there only seems to be one view.

24 hour a day political harrangues do not constitute the presentation of political views anyway, it is propaganda, pure and simple. In other words, opposing views are censored.

One must wonder exactly who employs and scripts these carbon copy talk shows and their respective hosts.

Please see: http://www.serendipity.li/cda.html for some references to historical censorship in the United States.

Michael

http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/post_1.html

constantnormal: If the Brits were looking about for a third-party nation to lease launch facilities from, they could do worse than negotiating with the Chileans

Technically, that's a superb idea. Unfortunately it would be a PR disaster (80's UK prime minister Thatcher was seen as a supporter of Chile president Pinochet who went on to face torture charges).

Which is kind of my whole point about a British space programme. Pretty much anywhere we'd choose to put it, it'd stir up unpleasant memories about something we'd cocked up in the past.

I really think that we're much better off just participating in other nation's programmes, and commercial programmes. If we want to launch satellites, we can give them to the French under the banner of ESA, job done, no flag waving required. But manned space flight is about patriotism, something which we find rather distasteful and gaffe-prone.

Nuclear blast areas: (20 megatons at 17,500 ft airburst)

8.5 miles - vaporized.
35 miles - 15% dead, 50% injured. Cite
??? miles - EMP so strong that internal components of chips melt. Cite

Hmm. Paper seems safer, easier to deal with without computers. And if I live, so does the data. Anyway, it's not likely someone would get a 20 megaton bomb. More likely 10 Kt to 1 Mt. Revise that for "Best be more than 50 miles away." Make that 150 miles for a 20 megaton.

Can I go live on a planet where we don't have this madness?

Regardless of what they might spew in DARE classes...

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_writings4. shtml
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_229.html
http://www.levity.com/aciddreams/samples/chromosom e.html
http://www.serendipity.li/dmt/chromosomes.htm

What, like they did at Waco you mean?

Point to an instance of Microsoft discriminating against gays - point to a change in their internal policies that says they're going to. Microsoft is one of the few companies I know that offers domestic partner benefits - are they changing that? NO!

Err, removing their support of this bill? Not speaking is an action. I find it hard to believe that they think the govt. will move to Linux (basically the only stick they have) over this. Apart from that I really don't see what anyone could do to them to stop them doing the right thing.

I guess I can see it if the the govt. hinted at restarting a monopoly charge, but I'd have expected it to happen a while ago.

Another POV...

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fi res.htm

See Martin Niemöller

I take it back, Diebold's CEO founded ES&S.

ES&S and Diebold (rather Global Election Systems, now part of Diebold) are run by Todd Urosevich and Bob Urosevich respectively. Yes, they're brothers.

There is plenty of evidence for potential conflict of interest in voting machine companies....

No, that's called "Tyrrany of the Majority", one of those things too few people learn while growing up.

Not only that, but the CIA dumped lost of Cocaine into, you guess it, south central L.A. Of course, they themselves denied everything.

On the subject of the ongoing drugs war.

The criminalization of marijuana .. and the maintenance of the criminal status of cannabis .. principally the United States, profiting enormously, directly and indirectly, from the "War on Drugs" while callously inflicting, directly and indirectly, major harm upon their citizens ..

Do I see a pattern emerging between the war on drugs and the war on copyright infringement?

Oops, sorry, my mistake. I guess it was re-reported after Bush 1st did an inquiry and I got confused at the time.

As far as I know, no rental companies over here do this though.

We have 60 million people here, and 4 million CCTV cameras. We also have numberplate recognition systems operating on main routes into London as well as in some police cars (it looks at every car it sees and alerts the police driver if it sees a 'wanted' vehicle). We have the Official Secrets Act where you have FOIA. We have D-Notices to keep the press quiet, and our right to silence when under arrest was removed a few years ago.

Still, at least we have leader elected by millions of citizens rather than by nine judges :)

Cool spook toys -- all very sexy.

But what about the assassination devices -- shellfish toxins, flechette umbrellas, that sort of thing?

What about MK-ULTRA -- the covert testing of hallucinogens on unsuspecting civilians?

What about CIA/Mafia alliances?

What about Operation Phoenix?

-kgj

"That's funny. Did you know that Hitler, Stalin, and Lenin are all still alive, eating shoes to survive in my basement? It's just as real as your living hijackers. Fucking trolls..."

Actually, it's seems that it's not that far-fetched... After reading his post, I did a search, and found some VERY interesting links.

Ofcourse, one should take everything one reads on the internet with a pinch of salt. But when the evidence of a hoax is evident even on the official photos, posted on the official government sites, and clearly shows that it simply couldn't have happened the way the gov't say it does, what should you belive?

Check out this for a starter.

If that makes you interested, and maybe even doubt the official story, check out these then:

Physical and Mathematical Analysis of the Pentagon Crash.
The World Trade Center Demolition and the So-Called War on Terrorism.
9/11 - ARE AMERICANS THE VICTIMS OF A HOAX?

"That's funny. Did you know that Hitler, Stalin, and Lenin are all still alive, eating shoes to survive in my basement? It's just as real as your living hijackers. Fucking trolls..."

Actually, it's seems that it's not that far-fetched... After reading his post, I did a search, and found some VERY interesting links.

Ofcourse, one should take everything one reads on the internet with a pinch of salt. But when the evidence of a hoax is evident even on the official photos, posted on the official government sites, and clearly shows that it simply couldn't have happened the way the gov't say it does, what should you belive?

Check out this for a starter.

If that makes you interested, and maybe even doubt the official story, check out these then:

Physical and Mathematical Analysis of the Pentagon Crash.
The World Trade Center Demolition and the So-Called War on Terrorism.
9/11 - ARE AMERICANS THE VICTIMS OF A HOAX?

"The UN this year even launched an investigation into the use of the system to spy on UN diplomats without much fanfare."

No one complains, because it doesn't affect them. Yet. They think, "Oh, it's just for terrorists... It's just for foreigners... It's just for diplomats. What they don't think about is the slippery slope. Sooner or later, it will be used against you too.

(Anyone remember Pastor Martin Niemoller?)

Somebody had to say that difficult word...

Why does that not surprise me.

This crap has got to stop.

A very large amount of funding for 'Black Projects' comes from CIA Cocaine and Heroin smuggling which has been going on for decades.

http://www.sumeria.net/politics/cia-coke.html

http://www.serendipity.li/cia/solomon.html

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/pandora/blac ks-targeted.html"

These are just the first three links from a google search on 'CIA Cocaine'. There is tons of evidence from it.

Download or buy "The Truth and Lies of 9-11" which is a lecture/speech by Mike Ruppert for much of the info. He's an ex LAPD Drug Squad officer who has been trying to expose the multi billion dollar drug smuggling activities of the CIA and related organisations.

Wake up, your government is *lying* you you America.