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Operation Fastlink Cracks Down on Warez
An anonymous reader writes "Beginning yesterday morning, law enforcement from 10 countries and the United States conducted over 120 searches worldwide to dismantle some of the most well-known and prolific online piracy organizations.
Among the groups targeted by Operation Fastlink are well-known organizations such as Fairlight, Kalisto, Echelon, Class and Project X, all of which specialized in pirating computer games, and music release groups such as APC. The enforcement action announced today is expected to dismantle many of these international warez syndicates and significantly impact the illicit operations of others."
The only "impact" will be "we have to start using VPNs, boys!"
I love how Ashcroft and his Copyright Enforcement Militia makes these pirates sound like the Mafia by using terms like "syndicate. Think about it: almost all "nfo" files have pleas for FTP sites for 0-day distribution. If these "sydicates" have to beg for machines and bandwidth in an "nfo" file, how omnipotent can they really be?
The feds are just taking care of their corporate masters, that's all.
Trolling is a art,
One will pop up for every one they push down.
We don't have the right to distributed pirated works online. How does this story fit in this category?
Ah yes, because we all know... it's the right of these individuals to freely trade copyrighted software so that they can be 3L33T 0-D4Y H4X0RZ.
Right...
That's where I used to get the majority of my cracks (when I used cracks.)
There's always more waiting to take their places though, so it's all good. Like reading about a big pot bust at the harbour.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
About raiding an Arizona school?
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
I'll believe this when I see it.
~S
What about Freenode? Anything said about that?
...of Operation Cyberstrike from the early 90's ;/ That one hit close to home, since one of their target bbs's was local to me :(
The ongoing investigations were assisted by various intellectual property trade associations, including the Business Software Alliance, the Entertainment Software Association, the Motion Picture Association of America and the Recording Industry Association of America.
Now how did I not see that coming.....
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
Okay, so now Class is an international mafia-like crime "syndicate." That's really great. I'm glad my tax dollars are being spent to track these people down when the real crime organizations are out there killing people. This is just another example of the government giving in to the whims of organizations like the RIAA and the MPAA.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
GO VEGAN!! www.peta.com
You mean I can no longer spend 5 days downloading a poorly cracked game that I can't play online? That's a real shame.
I always save my last mod point to mod up a good troll. You people are too serious.
We don't have the right to distributed pirated works online. How does this story fit in this category?
You must be new here.
And yet the sites are still up and out there.
I have to hand it to them - I think they are doing more than just checking google for the word "warez" now and actually getting tech savvy folks to point out where these sites are.
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
We wouldnt have international, sprawling companies cracking down on anyone who so much as looks at their code if people weren't so obsessed with money. Before you point this out to me, of course I'm being hypocritical here. I need money, but I dont exactly lust after it. If these massive companies had no need for money they wouldnt need copyrights so everyone would have the software and be free. Course, most communistic solutions to this problem collapsed pretty much totally, so that's not the answer. But noone genuinely likes these big companies do they? So what is the answer?
HAH! I just wasted a second of your life making you read this, but I wasted a minute of mine thinking it up. DAMN.
its nice that you make the government out to be the bad guys here, but I'm a game developer and I'd really like to stay in business thank you. With piracy so rampant, game developers NEVER see royalties and its harder and harder to scrape togeother enough cash to make a good game nowadays. Its up to you. Buy games and support the govenment in actions like this and have a healthy game biz, or pirate away and watch all the best developers go under.
I've never heard of any of these "well known" groups.
I guess this must mean that we've already solved all those pesky problems with rape, murder, assault and those other violent crimes, not to mention terrorism and the ongoing drug war, so now we can move onto things like busting 1337 W4R3Z D00DZ.
Wow, whether it is people selling pipes that might be used to smoke marijuana, or kiddiez running "FTP my w4r3z!!!!" sites, Ashcroft won't back down from a hard fight.
Ashcroft doesn't dance, smoke or drink. I think he has too much time on his hands.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
Looks like us Canucks are still good to go!
Calling someone with a four digit Slashdot ID new.
How is this a YRO story? None of us have the right to rip and crack a commercial game release. The only right here, is that of the developers to do something about it, which apparently... they just did.
Class releases have been around for years, I'm amazed it took this long for them to get shut down (at least, temporarily).
i can't believe they could use the phrase 'international warez syndicates' with a straight face.
As soon as you bop one in the head, two more pop up.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
It could take HOURS for new groups to deal with the hole created by the loss of these groups. The humanity.
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
"The amount of international coordination and cooperation in this effort is unprecedented and will send a clear and unmistakable message to those individuals and organizations dedicated to piracy that they will no longer be protected by geographic boundaries..."
"As a result of Fastlink, over 120 total searches have been executed in the past 24 hours in 27 states and in 10 foreign countries. Foreign searches were conducted in Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, the Netherlands, Singapore, Sweden as well as Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Operation Fastlink is the largest multi-national law enforcement effort ever directed at online piracy. Nearly 100 individuals worldwide have been identified by the investigation to date, many of whom are the leaders or high-level members of various international piracy organizations. As the investigations continue, additional targets will be identified and pursued."
Now the question is, what will we do with these individuals that run the piracy organizations?
Somehow I dont think this effort is going to do much to stop software piracy.
Well, since The Humble Guys are still alive and well, and were big even back when I was wee lad, I don't see any big impacts. The chiense stores in china town, still sell cheap re-printed DVD's, and I can still buy bootlegged smokes down at the local diner, I don't see how this is going to effect anything.
Come to think of it, isn't Razor 1911, and a few other "big players" still in the game? I guess they are "un-touchables"... Piracy might be seriously diminished one day, but it won't happen until the NWO anyways..
Mod +5 Drunk
The l33t w4r3z d00dz over at iSONEWS are discussing this too.
astalavista baby.
---
eeww, I'll have a crab juice.
...you don't recognize any of the warez groups names.
a bullshit FUD operation. ;-)
They sure do use a lot of words. illegal is redundant. Intellectual property is wrong because I think they are going after copyrights and not also patents. Piracy is cute and coloquial, but it doesn't refer to sea-faring attacks, then the DoJ shouldn't use it. This would be much better:
And the third-to-the-last paragraph is great, too:
If these programs are not for sale, then how do they arrive at the $ figure? You can't use the retail value of the final package; no one would pay that much for an unwarrantied, probably time-limited beta. In fact, very rarely do even legitimate users pay for a beta version.
I also like the word "seized" used with "pirated works" because it makes it seem like it's physical property. It's just another attempt to make infringement equal to theft. I expect better from my DoJ.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
I said it this morning. I sure am glad the FBI could take some time of their busy schedule of fighting terrorism to perform this incredably important national security task. I know I'll rest easier tonight knowing that copyrighted works are that much safer. Sheesh!
I just love the spin they put on this...
these international warez syndicates
Yes... 14 year old uber-geeks cracking games and software in mom's basement... yes, that something deserving the title "synicate".
Nice to see the government(s) spending money going after such terrifying villians instead of your friendly neighbourhood rapists, child molestors and murderers, eh?
Sad... and the media is playing into it...
CD key for WAREZ monkeys
http://www.narvakitchens.com/quake3cdkey.jpg
You know, I've seen that there's been trouble with WASTE lately, but I still think that it, or a system LIKE it will take off soon, where everything IS encrypted end to end. WASTE probably won't be it, but soon a new p2p app will rise up with nice security features. Then, they'll only be able to tell if you're warez'n by your bandwidth, which isn't really a sure fire way to tell. Filetopia from www.filetopia.com is supposed to be pretty secure, Win32 only, but it works fine under Wine.
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
... as if this might fall into the same category as trying to "rid the world of spam". Does anyone think it's going to make any difference?
The Erogenous Zone
Knowing those release groups as well I do, I predict they will plead NO-CD and CRACK their way out of prison within 3 days after their sentences go gold!
Whatever you say, this is "big" .nl boys though they were safe from the law, but looks like the US has done a bit of leaning..
Seriously "big"
Every single major "elite" warez site in the netherlands is gone.
FairLighT are gone, for those of you who don't know FairLighT ( FLT ) they're one of the two main game releasing warez groups. People within the scene are scared, this is a bad day for warez.
Also, this is the US Governments doing, up untill today the
send em to guantanamo bay
I mean, this people are part of the Axis of Evil, right?
Yes, go do the bidding of your corporate pimps and protect their profit margins. When you get the chance, how bout keepin an eye open for Osama?
Where am I supposed to get my games and Operating systems from NOW? Am I supposed to go out and by them like a normal person? But, I am better than them.
For pointing out that there's a huge overseas mp3 server illegally serving 12.8 gigs of mp3's in Iraq that Ashcroft should take down immediately - probably run by Evil Doers!
You have to wonder if the civilian contractors they're using to hunt these people down have community mp3 servers at work. If so, what do they listen to? Wagner?
Because it's Your Rights Online - Or Lack Thereof! And we should have the rights to distribute whatever we want. "Pirated" has no meaning, unless we're talking about hooks and eye patches.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the software-industry/IFPI/RIAA - and in fact EVERY entity making a living of pure digitalised works - is fighting a lost cause. And I think they know it.
First off all, I have difficulties with their acclaimed 'stealing' of music/software/movie. As far as I know, stealing implies that the one that has been stolen has been derived of something. When you take a copy, you do not take the original away, thus they have not 'lost' anything. They might claim that they loose money when ppl d/l music, but even that is far from certain. Not only is it not shown statistically to have had that effect (they didn't even show a correlation thusfar - see former aussie music-news - let alone a causality). Ofcourse they *claim* they are suffering, and that it's all due to online d/l, but it's far from being a scientific valid causility. And frankly, even if it were true, it is partly their own fault, and partly because their sort of business (as it is today) has simply become obsolete.
Furthermore, in an individual case, they would have to show they actually lost revenue. Which is far from said, because I sure know some guys who d/l music, but would NEVER have bought that music if they were unable to d/l it. So, how did the RIAA/IFPI loose revenue, exactly? And if they didn't lose anything, how can the term 'stealing' apply?
It would still be copyright-infringement, ofcourse, but that's another matter. I think maybe it's time we went beyond our current system of copyrights and walk into the era of cyberspace. With the industrial revolution, patents and copyrights knew a high flight, maybe it's time to let it leave and try something new? Maybe something in the lines of this: fairshare [sourceforge.net].
And don't worry, contrary to what the RIAA claims, musicians will not starve to death, and music-making will not stop. We had music long before we had copyrights, and we will have music long after copyrights have vanished from the scene.
And lastly, it's something that *can not* be stopped. P2P progs and their development act as organisms that follow the darwinian rules of survival. When Napster was 'killed' by the RIAA, immediately others (like kazaa) took over, being more resistent to attacks from the RIAA&co. Whenever kazaa will be shut down, others again will take over. When endusers are targeted, systems that protect the user will become dominant (like FreeNet).
It really is a lost cause. But then again, they are not truelly battling for the survival of musicians (as I said; they will survive, just as they used to do), it's for their OWN survival they are fighting. There is no way in hell they are going to keep the giant profits that they have been gathering for the last decades.
But ultimately, they will have to do what P2P systems are already doing: adapt to the new circumstances (and forget about the former levels of profit), or whither and die.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
As far as I know Fairlight and other similar groups are crackers. Do they actually do any piracy? I thought they just cracked games and stuff.
I'm not anti-microsoft. I'm anti-bullshit. Which means I'm anti-microsoft.
I hear often enough that the majority of spam comes from a very small group of individuals. Come on, feds, get your act in gear and illegalize spam so you can go after these big-league criminals.
The continuing rise of open source and open content will have more impact than any of these crackdowns will. In fact, the crackdowns on "IP theft" only accelerate the progress toward an open future. Copy-prevention is just a stopgap by the old regime.
--
Power to the Peaceful
Ashcroft please spend our nation's resources on something more important.
Nooooooo more free stuff.
Some of you techno-toads need to get your head out of the web and realize that technology isnt the solution to EVERYTHING.. Not only does john law have the capability of breaking a lot of VPN's, but he doesnt really need to.
these guys storm offices and houses, they pull you from your keyboard before you can lock it out, they have "agents" work the chat networks and so on, becoming "friends" and insiders of these "syndicates".
Its very difficult to carry on this type of illegal activity through a structured or organized manner against the deep deep deep resources of both the sowftare industry and the goverment. The only way to battle them is for hugely distributed and un-localized distribution....
basicly P2P... now P2P with strong encryption and trace-blocking, along with various other privacy protections distributed across enough users is a much more difficult thing to kill. These pirate groups are asking for trouble by making themselves targets.
--Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
Since when did the United States supercede mere "country" status? I guess, although, we may play occasionally with the other countries, we still don't want to be associated with them.
www.clarke.ca
GO VEGAN!! www.peta.com
Tofu has feelings too ya know. Or did you mean that everyone should move to Las Vegas?
But the plain fact is that they have never and probably will never be that effective. Look at warez (of all kinds) distribution now as compared to '92 --> it's exploded in size & scope. So in reality these serve not to actually protect anybody's intellectual property rights, but to scare the bejeezus out of anyone who might be thinking of taking a leadership role in one of these groups. Also they look really good in the media to scare high school and college students from even downloading warez in the first place... But overall, just an ineffective media sideshow.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Not to be a troll, but who cares. Log in to any IRC channel sharing warez and notice all the bots. Ever thing about how many of them are legit. Most are hacked boxes running on some poor system.
Before anyone starts saying they should have patched. Try running a system w/ 500+ machines, hearing about a vulnerability, trying to download the patch, testing the patch against most configs on your network, making sure it won't break applications X,Y, and Z, finally applying it 500+ times and doing this in two days. That's the mean time between announcement and exploit.
If some of these people making my life a living hell finally get put away, fine. Better yet, make them do my job.
I've gotta agree with all the people pointing out that this should not be in YRO, and I'm glad to see that this community has a decent percentage of people who agree this is the right response from the FBI. For the rest of you, what's it going to take to make you people happy?
Step 1: They tried busting people like Ed Felten for talking about piracy tools. This was genuinely evil, and we bitched, saying "they should only go after the pirates, not people talking about tools that might be used for piracy."
Step 2: They started busting the pirates themselves. They handled it in a fairly Snidely Whiplash sort of way, but it is definitely within the bounds of the spirit of the law. And you all bitched, saying, "these are just home users, the real problem is the piracy rings."
Step 3: The crack a bunch of piracy rings. This is totally in line with the spirit and proper use of copyright. If some company were doing something similar with GPL software, we'd go after them and we would win. Please try to retain what remains of your credibility - don't bitch when organized, premeditative law breakers get their comeuppance.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
cause it sure would help speed linux adoption. The way I see it the more people are on linux the more companies will release drivers so we can actually use all the latest stuff (and some old stuff).
I've been downloading software, music and apps for the last eight years via FTP, IRC, newsgroups, and now Emule, but I've only heard of Fairlight and Class. Music release groups don't get a lot of publicity since it doesn't take much skill to rip a CD.
Fairlight generally releases ISO's, and Class releases rips (without movies and extra stuff). However, I haven't seen a Class release on www.nforce.nl in quite some time. So this bust must have been tracking a few years back.
There seems to be more prestige to release games these days since protections like http://www.star-force.com/ have been giving release groups more challenge.
Thank god they created that echelon project so we could all be safe from those terrorists that are attacking the mpaa and riaa.
lol.
Wait a minute, Operation Fastlink isn't a P2P program?
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
I always said piracy groups, aliases, and all the things that link piracy to an identity were a bad idea. NFOs shouldn't have links to group chatrooms so the FBI know where to find them talking and get pertinent information about each alias explicitly mentioned in said NFO.
In a way, I'm glad this happened. Not in the way that the gov't is using these Naziesque propaganda techniques branding pirates nothing short of enemies of the state, but that these people get what they deserve not for committing crimes, but for fucking showboating it.
I'd feel the same way from an employee who stares at the camera over his register while he pockets 20 bucks for himself. Might as well hold up a flash card with his name, address and SSN too.
how u expect from sceners not to get busted while every 14yo faggot which have no idea what hes doing gaining access to most respected scenesites, everyone from the fbi could join some lame group and from it gain access to the biggest sites around, maybe thats the main issue that all the active people should be worried about.
Make sure you Feds bust those guys! All that software and for free? Thats not possible. And I hear they even give you the source code for the applications!!
Are they still around? I know Razor was hurt big time this last hit. They still have stuff in the air, but most of it is old.
I know Deviance has still been putting out new stuff, but I havn't seen any new groups comming out anymore.
You know, a lot of people here seem to be saying what you said, and to a degree, that's true.
However, if the government keeps sending these groups to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison, that's going to stop or at least trickle off at some point. We're not exactly talking about the Mafia here. If a continual crackdown occurs to the point where if you put pirated software out for distribution you have a high likelyhood of being passed around a cell block to earn cigarettes for someone much bigger than you are, it's going to seem like a much less attractive activity to most sane people.
Right now that's probably not happening, but if there was a real threat of law enforcement getting involved... shit, most geeks are afraid of girls. You don't think they're going to be even more afraid of lonely, burly men?
> 10 countries and the United States
I thought the United States counted as a country too.
Please remember these groups were already using end-to-end user encryption for communications, and servers were probably heavily encrypted too (so was traffic).
Neither (insert your favorite waste-based crypt chat tool) nor ipsec/vpn are part of the problem, in fact you could find several crypto/networks systems experts within these groups.
FLT & Class were being known for hude cd resells networks established, that's how the FBI managed to find and incrimate few members, they didn't sn|fF th4 n3tw0rk or whatever honeypot you may think about.
That operation is simply following the 2001 ones, and don't forget the recent german busts. And again, yro isn't an appropriate section.
If you think the FLT of today is anything like the *real* FLT, you're sorely mistaken.
Watch the fucking idiot cops go after the C64 demo section of FLT too, just because of the name...
How much do you want to bet, some of these searches are going to be conducted under the guise of the Patriot Act. You know, the section that allows for searches without notifying the people they are being searched. How hard will it be to link the pirated software getting into the hands of the Evil Terrorists. Or maybe since the games being pirated have "terrorists" in it, Fuhrer Ashcroft has determined this to be a threat to homeland security AHHHHHHHHHHH I hate this administration more and more each day
Flushed the potty again eh?
cops round here clear the crackheads outa entire neighborhoods that way.
like stalins purge,or the night of bloody knives.
works for a while.wonder what theyll do next to get what they want.the warezhounds that is.damn,isnt it inevitable?isnt it just a bunch of obsessive collectors mostly?
Lets face it,while I'm not condoning or defending it.Arent computers based around business models benefited by the number of people qualified to use applications and therefore be able to operate and automate the business process?(ok i cant say that in one breath)
I understand all the property rights and copycrap arguments but all in all businesses buy software and users cant afford to get anything but GNU anyway.
aww,fu*k it im gonna go do something physical,rather than try to preach to the copyobsessed who built their house over a sandune.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
The only right here, is that of the developers to do something about it... (emphasis mine).
BOSS: Lugi.
LUGI: Yes boss.
BOSS: We have some 1337 Warez d00ds here.
LUGI: Boss?
BOSS: Targets, deal with em.
LUGI: (Smiles) Ok Boss.
Lots of comments about how this is only a minor setback in the warez scene, and the FBI should be doing more important things, yadda yadda. While that may all be true, anytime warez groups get shutdown is a good thing.
People complain that software companies are using an outdated retail model. Well, thats too bad. It's the way things are these days, and these groups are not helping software companies at all.
Sure the NFOs might say 'Buy the game if you like it!' but how many actually do? People use the mentality "Download for free, play, beat game. Say 'I didn't like it' and claim that since you didn't like it, you wouldn't have bought it anyways, and therefore the company is out no $$" That is part of the reason games cost so much now (that, and dumbass marketing depts)
Anyways, thats my little rant for now. I look forward to more warez scene crackdowns like this.
SmashTech - No smashing of tech involved
I suspect the bump was because the earlier post was sent as "Anonymous Coward", giving it an initial score of 0 rather than 1, making it easier for a lazy moderator to see. After that, another lazy moderator didn't care which was timestamped first, and downmodded the other. Not fair, really, but most people with mod points don't bother with the part of the guidelines that says "browse at -1".
And, according what looks to be an Arizona TV station, the two stories are linked.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Propz 2 all my homiez on Efnet #busheatsbrowneye, HAXOR911, FAGBASHER2000, PIR84LIFE. We need T3 lines to help us move our warez, so e-mail me at joeanderson@bellsouth.net. Or you can send me cash or a money order to help me buy more SCSI HDDs to
123 Dumb Fuck Avenue
Anytown, U.S.A
Peace! Vote Nader!
You see, for years now the software, music, and movie industry have implicitly asserted that each copy of an item pirated was a lost sale.
...and once it's clear that the dearth of available pirated software has no positive impact whatsoever on software sales, we can tell these groups to get well and truly stuffed.
With this major bust, the supply of new pirated software titles should drop precipitously.
Once and for all, we can watch the sales figures and determine whether or not there's any relation between piracy and sales.
.@.
Why cant the 'authorities' go after something that matters?
Who really gives a damn if some kids trade a bunch of games they cant afford in the first place.. or some crappy music rips....
It doest hurt anyone, regardless of the 'law'.
Meanwhile REAL issues are being left unaddressed.. such as street crack dealers and terrorists, or missing children, for example..
Or is 'justice' now only about how big of a lobby you have to support YOUR cause?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Wallace and Ladmo were gods.
Obviously, the only thing that would make warez sites and online piracy organizations morally objectionable and properly subject to sanction would be if they distributed, sold or bartered binaries for derivative works of GPLed software in violation of the GPL.
Only Women Bleed (Sex, Sharia remix)
I'm not arguing either way, just pointing out that YRO is fairly broad and can represent anyone's perspective. You've just assumed it was the perspective of the warez d00dz and not the authors of said warez.
Maybe someone should start seeding cracking info to al queda, they'll get Osama in no time.
Burn one to protest John Ashcroft, Theocrat
Seditiously,
Kilgore Trout
I see all this wrangling in a greater context. Mr. Ashcroft, Bill Gates, the MPAA, the RIAA, while they *think* they are protecting intellectual property, are in reality puppets of Satan, who are building the infrastructure that will be used by the antiChrist to control the world's commerce. From Revelations chapter 13- 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666. Now stop and think. If going to buy and sell over the internet, you will have to have licenses. These licenses will be stored in a FILE. The file will need to be read and written by anyone, so it will have read-write permissions for owner, group, and world. That's a permission code of - yeah - *666* ERGO - digital rights management is a tool of the Devil, designed to control the population in order to force them to worship Satan. QED
Your first two paragraphs are quite true, but have no bearing at all on what I was saying. I was saying that the claim those companies make that 'It is just the same as stealing from a shop' (actual quote) is false.
It does not matter what kind of contract they have with the musicians, nor if they are owners, nor if I or anyone else agreed to the licence. The *statement* is false. If I go to a shop, see some vase, let's say, and I copy that vase at home, can the shop or the owner accuse me of stealing his vase? No. (at least not icn the jurisdiction I live). I *could* be breaking copyright or some patents, yes, but I would not be charged with stealing it from the shop.
The RIAA claims one could, if one does exactly the same, but instead of a vase, with one of their CDs. THAT is what is absurd, and what I was arguing.
The problem with your line of reasoning, is that it starts from the established point of copyrights that we have developped into today, and do not try to see outside the framework that is now almost considered a natural right. but it isn't, and, in fact, it never was. It's very clear (whatever the Supreme Court says about it) that the founding fathers meant it to be a right of limited scope and duration, to *stimulate* new and innovative works, and then bring it to the public good.
This, clearly, has been perverted and corrupted in a system that has virtual no limitations anymore, and which main goal is the squeeze as much money and profit out of it by and for the middle-man; corporations that have huge profits but hardly create anything innovative themselves, and, in fact, try their best to stiffle innovation when they feel threatened.
You think 'asking to reform' will do actually amount to anything, since it would mean they practically vanish from the scene? Me thinks not. I think the chance of that happening is as big as it was if the serfs would have 'asked' the aristocracy if they would please give up their powerbase.
This line of reasoning shows an apparent lack of sense for reality.
Unjust laws are often overruled by breaking them en masse, and what's more, I do not think that that is an immoral act on itself, on the contrary. Far from me to entice anyone in doing something illegal, but I still can say what I think (unless Free speech has been abolished too?), and I think that the law, as it was original conceived and intended was justified, but what it is and has become today is unjust and immoral, and should not be used to make ppl guilty, let alone criminalised, when they are disregarding those perverted laws.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
Listen
I know most of the Slashdotters know alot, and it is the Slashdot way to talk and talk convinced you know it all.
But you don't know this.
This is not some kids and their FTPs
This is a huge network of people, with different skills and access to different things. Stealing/Borrowing brand new games and movies from stores they work, cracking and ripping them with real skills then uploading them to 100mbit - 1gbit++ sites with 2tb+ hard drives.
These people are not the idiots you like to beleive they are. They are skilled in *nix, circumventing copy protection and a whole bunch of other stuff. They work jobs, and do this for fun.
And please, do not suggest 'WASTE' or 'p2p', where do you think the files on these networks come from? The people getting busted now are the ONLY ones supplying pirated materials to the internet, if it was not for them no-one would have these games,movies,etc.
You are not above them.
They are not children.
And no, i am not one of them. But i've have known these people.
Ya, and it'll also stop the old arguement that app X (which Y can not live without) isn't available for Linux. Its not like you Windows users every pay for anything! ;-)
Linux: What can you afford to do today?
Quack, quack.
Ahhhh... one of you people... let me guess, have a dictionary sitting beside your toilet to amuse yourself? Slashdot has the biggest population of grammar facists I have ever seen... but really should that shock me? :) Funny part is, you should have made fun of the fact I mispelled syndicate when I quoted it...
Regardless... there is the dictionary definition of a word... and there is the popular context that is taken in. Fag has more then one meaning, but what do 95% of North Americans think when they hear it... ditto for the word syndicate.
So put down your dictionary and thesarus, and I dunno... get a life?
Well, Suprnova.org is still up, so they couldn't have been that sucessful in dismantling the distribution of pirated material.
I'd hate to see these groups put into a prison.. that would suck.. Imagine the conversations: Con 1: Yeah, I killed my wife and her mother because they made me asparagus for dinner... and I HATE asparagus. Con 2: I ran a child porn syndicate with runaways. Con 3: D00DZ! |'M L33T!!!!!111!!1 W4R3z syndicate 4ever!!! Ah... as if our prisons weren't already over populated.
Learn something new.
Actually that is a perfectly valid arguement. Locally, we had a strong increase in speeding fine amounts - which strangely coincided with an increase to the police force in the area of... yes you guessed it... traffic enforcement!
Nothing wrong with traffic tickets to regular speeders/etc, until it becomes more of a cash-cow than a deterrent, nevermind the issues with "quotas" etc
ALL Laws shoud be enforced, but not all laws have the same sense of urgency in the grand scheme of things. There is a legal principle known as officer's discretion. Surely you have been given a warning instead of a ticket when you knew you were in the wrong. Did you demand to be given a ticket? I though so!
I remember Fairlight from my old Amiga days 10 - 15 years ago - but AFAIK they're not in the cracking biz' anymore.
http://www.fairlight.org/
These guys are still around? Wow... I remember back in 95-97 when there was a big mp3 war between APC and RNS. I still think RNS was way better :-)
10 year old geek (probably YOU):
Mom, can I have $120,000 so I can
learn autocad and 3d studio and
visual basic and oracle and....?
Mom: No that's too expensive dear
How long before we can afford it?
Mom: after we win the lottery maybe.
Firefox &
"Intellectual property theft is a global problem that hurts economies around the world. To be effective, we must respond globally"
:D ... for you!) and infrastructur(who cares about "broadband" when there are no warez?).
Tss, effective defending of the intellectual property is a major problem for average Joes economy
And also how would if affect hardware(hdds, gfxcards, burners), media bussiness(discs), educational(no windows, office, visual studio,
In other news there are no scene since the death of Amiga, may it rest in peace! Have you joined #amielite lately?
Hah! The users of the most well known and prolific online piracy organisations conduct over 120 million searches every day!
- Stormcaller
http://www.stormcaller.net
Well... I remember not that long ago when the newest-off-the-shelf game didn't cost $50-80 (CAD). Not only that, but I remember when that same overhyped game didn't turn out to be a big POS that either broke on my PC, or just generally sucked.
Not that I haven't bought quite a few games lately, with many of them being very good... it's just that I've also managed to avoid a lot of crappy ones by downloading warez copies in order to determine if they were good or not.
This is especially true with CD-keyed online games. While I hate CD-keys, they're definately a useful way to put a demand for the authentic product.
Does information want to be anything? The more information you have about a system (thermodynamically speaking of course), the less entropy there is. However, entropy is always increasing. The very act of collecting information distroys information and increases entropy by a greater amount that it is decreased. Maybe the information itself doesn't want to be anything, but the Universe wants information to dissapear ( just look at the 100 year cd myth story for more proof).
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
You:
A.) Participate in piracy, so this pisses you off.
B.) Have a beef against Ashcroft, so it just ruffles your panties to see him cracking down on illegal software piracy.
There is absolutely, 100% nothing wrong with the government cracking down on this. Slashdot wants to pretend it's some sort of miniscule, "gray area" problem, but it's millions of users all trading warez and making it harder to sell software.
Why the hell do you think PC sales are so low, and so game companies are turning to consoles? Don't give me the "games were better in the olden days" spin, because we've got everything from Far Cry to Invisible War to SimCity 4 to Rollercoaster Tycoon 2 to...you get the picture.
"Copyright Enforcement Militia"...this is such propaganda bullshit that I can't believe--no wait, I CAN believe it got modded up. A post bitching about the emotive use of the word "syndicate" yet emotively using "militia." Nice!
Let's all pirate the fuck out of Doom 3, shall we? I'm sure John Carmack won't mind. Will he?
Don't forget the part about placing value judgements on people based upon how much, or little, they made for themselves. It might look wide and free, like the sea, but there is a very fixed path to follow; freedom isn't real if all options but one have negative consequences attached.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
Okay, I'm seeing a lot of people railing (once again) against the government for enforcing the law. If this operation was targeted at the people downloading the pirated software and music, I'd be joining in - that's a huge waste.
But the government action is against those that are producing the cracked software and providing the music for download. These aren't your typical kids playing at sharing music. These are people who know exactly what they are doing, and, while they have a myriad of reasons for doing so (some even mildly admirable), they ARE breaking the law.
So I'm reading this, well, garbage that people are posting about honor among pirates. Well, whatever. I'm sure that's true for some segment of that population. But who gives a damn? Who are these people really benefiting? Is this REALLY a valid way to protest the pricing structures and horrible crap that these companies are producing? And even if it is, these people, again, are aware the the consequences of this type of protest, and I feel no need to get worked up about it.
I guess my point is - I'm GLAD that my government actually attempts to enforce the law. I wish they did a better job, which includes knowing how and when to enforce the law. At least this time they got it right, for once. 'Course, that's assuming that the press release is even reasonably accurate.
My experience is that "warez" is the soul reason for the popularity of the PC platform.
In my opinion, it is services like kazaa that are perpetuating this problem. The kazaa organization as well as other "commercial" gnutella services should be implementing filters and such. Don't bust the kid who put up his stupid little website, bust the big boys.
If the dollar is an "I owe you nothing", then the Euro is a "Who owes you nothing." - Doug Casey
If you agree with any of this, feel free to repost it in the future.
Song of the piracy apologist:
(1) I don't personally believe in copying CDs illegally-- but I think we should avoid using unkind words like "piracy" to describe those that do -- instead, we should describe it as an "infringement", much like a parking infringement.
(2) I don't believe in the record companies emotively abusing the word "theft," but I do believe in emotively abusing words like "information," "sharing," and "Copyright Enforcement Militia."
(3) I believe that piracy is driven by "overpriced CDs" even though CDs have dropped in price over the years.
(4) I believe that piracy is driven by overly long copyright duration, even though most pirated works are recent releases.
(5) I believe that illegitimately downloading music is giving the author "free advertising". I don't buy any of the music I download, of course--but lots of other people probably do.
(6) I believe that ripping off the artists is wrong. The record companies always rip off the artists. Artists support P2P, except the ones that don't (like Metallica), and they don't agree with me, hence they're greedy or their opinion doesn't count or something.
(7) I believe that selling CDs is not a business model, but giving away things for free on the internet is.
(8) I believe that artists should be compensated for their work -- preferably by someone else. I mean, they can sell concert tickets (which someone else can buy) or sell t-shirts (to someone else) or something. As long as someone else subsidises my free ride, I'm coooooool with it.
(9) I believe in capitalism but only support music business models which involve giving away the fruits of ones labor for free.
(10) I believe that copying someone elses music, and redistributing it to my 1,000,000 "best friends" on the internet is sharing. Music is made for sharing. It's my right.
(11) I believe that record companies cracking down on piracy is "greed", but a mob demanding free entertainment is not.
(12) I believe that it's not really "piracy" unless you charge money for it, because, receiving money is wrong, but taking a free ride is fine.
(13) I believe that disallowing copying and redistributing music over Napster is the same as humming my favourite song in public. Because when I hum my favourite song in public, everyone likes it so much that they run home, get out their tape
recorders and once they've got a recording of it, they aren't interested in hearing the original any more.
(14) I believe that when illegal behaviour destroys a business, it's "free enterprise at work".
What I find amusing is that the pirates seem unable or unwilling to distinguish between creative activity and brainless copying.
Since a lot of the people here are GPL/OSS advocates: the "OSS way" applied to this domain is to learn how to play an instrument. Or how to sing or whatever. Then get together with a bunch of other people who can also play music, and make some noise.
One of the unfortunate things that has happened to the OSS movement is that a lot of the loudmouth advocates for it don't understand what it's really about. They view it primarily as a means to get free stuff, and then they turn their eyes from the free stuff to the non-free stuff and think to themselves "maybe I'm entitled to get that one for free too". The noble ideals of grass roots participation in the creative process, and/or supporting it in a principled way (namely, boosting the "free foo" movement by preferring free foo to nonfree foo), or for that matter, any other form of moderately principled codes of ethics, are completely lost on them. I think it's a shame that these leeches use OSS, but there's not a whole lot that can or should be done about that. But I'd be much happier if at the very least, they wouldn't confuse the OSS movement (free as in freedom) with the Napster driven movement (free as in "loader").
It's time to end the perverted concept of Corporate rights. They are allowed to incorporate to serve the public, for a specific purpose. If they fail in that obligation, they should die.
Corporations should NEVER have the right to "free speech". Never, EVER. That right is reserved for Citizens.
--Mike--
This message does not necessarily reflect the views of ACME, Inc.
ACME - American Corporation that Manufactures Everything
The best anonymous warez site ever seen can be found here. They move the directory around a lot so that it isn't to easily found by you know who. But, they always leave a clue to the new directory on this page.
When will people learn that attacking pirates just makes you look stupid? I'll admit to having downloaded games and such, but you know what? The ones I liked and played, I BOUGHT.
The CD's I listened to after downloading? If I liked 'em, I BOUGHT THEM! (Yeah! I use iTunes Music Store! I buy CD's at Best Buy!)
The "scene" (aka "International Syndicate") just puts stuff out there for you to check out. Yeah, not everyone is ethical, and maybe software authors / companies do lose money, but they also make money as well, by people who would never have bought the CD/Game/Movie, but who found it online, and liked it enough to go purchase it.
Smart companies have figured out ways to make this more likely. When Call of Duty came out, you couldn't play the cracked version online, so if you wanted to (and who didn't?!) you went and bought the game. Same with Raven Shield, and many other games.
well the enforcement syndicate that used US law agencies as its front really might want to watch it's language so as not be found to pervert truth
If this bothers you then you should call the DOJ public comment line at (202) 514-2008
#1 - They're enforcing the laws of our country. The FBI is just the police that operate at the Federal (National) level. It is not the FBI's job to deal with foreign matters.
#2 - The responsbility for tracking down Bin Laden lays with the NSA (It coordinates, directs, and performs highly specialized activities to protect U.S. information systems and produce foreign intelligence information.) and the CIA (Providing accurate, comprehensive, and timely foreign intelligence on national security topics.). The Department of Defense (the military) are the ones who carry out the work to actually find him.
Gabriel Ricard
I have no problem going after whoever if the punishment fits the crime.
I don't believe downloading files and infringing on one's copyright should be punishable by long jail sentences and financial ruin unless the accused are a major syndicate making money selling their warez.
Let me reiterate that if it's a single person or non-profit group you can punish them but not with jail time or outrageous fines.
If it is a illegal business entity then feel free to do as you may but it must be proven to be a business and not purely based on speculation.
The same goes for music copyright infringement. $150k per song is ludicrous. Charge what it'd cost per cd and double it max because what's in place now is beyond a joke.
Make the punishment fit the crime or before we know it we'll have more prison overcrowding simply from single user copyright infringement.
How long until we see "Just say no to media theft" ads? This is getting ridiculous and it needs to stop. Should a person who downloaded a warez, mp3's, or movies be doing time with convicted felons and violent ones at that?
Simple answer - FUCK NO!
Corporate Amerikkka is rewriting our laws without any thought of our personal rights as guaranteed under the constitution.
People need to wake the fuck up!
You aren't free to do anything, until you've lost everything.
Well, expect to see a lot more of this kind of silliness. It's an election year, and groups like the RIAA want their money's worth from the sitting president before they dump a bunch more money into his reelection coffers.
It's not all that surprising they're painting the warz sites and music swapping sites as run by syndicates in press releases. What are they going to say? "Um, uh ... We stopped people trading game software we don't want out kids using, and songs we don't want them listening to, so can you please forget about all that other stuff we said we were going to do but can't seem to get a handle on? Please?"
The GPL should be enforced, because people should respect copyright laws, but punishing people for downloading music they haven't paid for is bad, because copyright laws are the tool of Evil Corporations.
Welcome to Slashdot!
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I have two words which refute every weak "well, if your games were better we'd buy them and you'd be successful" straw-man of an arguement:
LookingGlass Stuidios
Theif, System Shock and ... insolvency. Shut down because people would rather steal their games than buy them.
The american government's action is a good thing. It protects revoemag's ability to earn a living. I question the slashtot collective logic which states that MPAA / RIAA should go after the 'real pirates' and then condems one government when they attempt to do just that. Certainly, not all of these groups profit from their activities, but their activities do harm legitimate businesses (and their employees, and the rest of us who legitimatly puchase games).
In closing, to the fan boys, leave the drom room, bike down to your local electronics store and drop $10 that mom gave you on something in the bargain bin. It's faster than ripping it off from some .JP hosted server and if it sucks, well, mom's out ten bucks.
-- Okay, so that last bit was flaimbait, sorry,
-- RLJ
Probably get flamed as being full of shit for posting this, but oh well. In all honesty, I don't buy any games that I don't download first. I know it's illegal, I understand that. But right now I don't have enough cash to throw at every game I find interesting. I know companies always release demos of their games, but demos these days are typically so limited that they are almost worthless. Great, I've seen the best level of the 30 that you have in your game.
The end result for me will be me spending less money on games because I can't risk throwing $50 on some game that I'm going to find out really sucks. Oh well... I've been finding Scorched Earth really damn amusing lately anyways. My Death's Head will 0wn you.
The Mother of All Games
Scorched Earth 2000 (released under the GPL)
Casual Games/Downloads
Also, for finding releases, try ircspy.com and isohunt.com
moo
It is possible to simultaneously enforce a law and bow to one's corporate masters. Especially if the law is there to benefit the corporate masters.
-- $SIGNATURE
Ashcroft is an ass. Terrorism wasn't a priority before 9/11 and it still isn't important enough to preclude this errand-boy stuff?
Look - even after 9/11 the FBI ran an investigation into prositution in New Orleans. Guess what! They found some!
You: Get the FBI defending your interests re: computer crime if
1) you are a big campaign contributer
there is no 2)
The alleged $50,000 provable damage rule is only the point where they have the authority to decide to investigate. Mostly they decide not to. Chasing warez d00dz for copywrite violation is a staggering misallocation of resources that may get people killed.
On the other hand, stringing up a packeting kidiot by his thumbs might actually make the net an easier place to for the rest of us to do our thing .
If your only defense of these groups is a rant on symantics, you would do well to re-evaluate your position.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I personally *love* to blow shit up. And I have 200 gallons of diesel and several tons of nitrate fertiliser, because I run a farm.
Som what to do, you ask?
Why, follow the terror-cell model... which p2p does not currently do. It won't be quite as fast, but it'd be a pure hairball to unravel.
help me i've cloned myself and can't remember which one I am
A fact about release groups:
-They have access to before they are released to the public.
How?
They get their stuff from people working in the medias that leak the promo copies to these groups.
Why?
Because they get premium access to all the other releases they don,t have access to before everyone else. That's 0-day.
So this makes a big incentive for many people to download stuff, they can get it MONTHS before it's in stores.
Quit sending promo copies, or just send them at the same time the game is in stores. This will diminish leeching A LOT I guarantee.
Too simple a solution to be considered it seems.
With this beign said, I was wondering why console games where allowed to be rented in video stores while PC games couldn't.
It's probably something to do with the EULAs but with all that nonsense, I'm wondering why no one ever tried to take a EULA fight to court.
The piracy issue is in deadlock.
Hopeless for both sides.
Consumers won't unite and boycott an illogical business model down to it's knees while governments makes laws to protect a corporation against its consumers.
We should have been
So much more by now
Too dead inside
To even know the guilt
Actually, information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Only Women Bleed (Sex, Sharia remix)
So you are saying we should slit warez distributors with a sharp blade to ensure more don't pop up?
First you start trading warez on-line, then the next thing you know you're hooking up with other FPS gamers to play your pirated booty at pirate frag parties where you drink alcahol and the next thing you know you're smoking pot and taking halucangenics and turning on tracer effects in the games... So now your trading stolen software, trading in illegal drugs... then your girlfriend dumps you (if you even had one) and the only date you can get is the prostitute down the street that takes pirated windows software as payment...
It's a slippery slope...
Seriously though, the only way to stop software piracy is drop the price to $19.99 for everything.
These guys arent stupid, they have been and are using encryption already. How the feds get them is everyone wants better!! Someone that they dont know either offers them some elite space with a elite link to do there stuff on, or starts up a FTP site with amazing speed and space and they are hooked. So all the feds do is track that site that they have and voilla they have everyone. BTW most people use Bounces but still this doesn't stop them, and encrypted FTP sessions have been going on for years now. Most of these groups do not profit for the relase and do purchase the software and reccomend that if you like it that you do. I dont think that many people do but It doesn't stop some of us from doing so. Although I really think it is a waste of time/money worrying about this sort of stuff when you have bin ladens running around that can do real physical damage and harm to people.
Where am I supposed to get my games and Operating systems from NOW?
If you want an operating system, get it from gentoo.org or freebsd.org. If you want games, developers have published plenty of copylefted or otherwise Free games for *n?x.
You know why I use those cracks ? To crack my own game, that i legally bought for 40+$. Why do I do that ? Because I usually play more than 1 game at a time, and I have only one CD. You know what happen ? Every freaking game is asking to see its own CD in the drive. Result : early break down because you opnen and close so much the CD door. Personally I think those guy were sparing me the money, that game developper/distrubutor make me lose on hardware early retirement. I guess I will have to search for those crack a bit more "deeper" now. But I will certainly not give up on the possibility of not having to play CD-Toaster wioth what i legally bought.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Wasn't it that they heard of a leak of Duke Nukem Forever and thought it would lead to nuclear terrorism?
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
... because the entry barrier for warez is going to be higher, so more people will be willing to spend time downloading, installing, and learning open source software.
the actual losses are significantly less.
I always liked how on the NFO's that groups released, a lot of them made the statement "If you like this product and have a use for it, BUY IT, and support the developers."(paraphrased)
I mean it obviously doesn't absolve them from wrongdoing, but it's a nice gesture considering that they're obviously not required to put it there.
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
Piracy is theft. Period. They deserve everything that is happening to them.
Just because you want something, doesn't mean you have the right to steal it.
The war on x, the war on y, the war on z. uh-huh.
In Soviet Russia Cracks get YOU! ...sorry. :)
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
-- E.C. Stanton
I think it's the most eloquent statement of the principle that some laws (oral sex, damaged slaves) are not only antiquated, but actually *wrong*.
This is not a troll, but the truth (BTW checkout that UID and I have karma to burn!)
If you agree with any of this, feel free to repost it in the future.
Song of the piracy apologist:
(1) I don't personally believe in copying CDs illegally-- but I think we should avoid using unkind words like "piracy" to describe those that do -- instead, we should describe it as an "infringement", much like a parking infringement.
(2) I don't believe in the record companies emotively abusing the word "theft," but I do believe in emotively abusing words like "information," "sharing," and "Copyright Enforcement Militia."
(3) I believe that piracy is driven by "overpriced CDs" even though CDs have dropped in price over the years.
(4) I believe that piracy is driven by overly long copyright duration, even though most pirated works are recent releases.
(5) I believe that illegitimately downloading music is giving the author "free advertising". I don't buy any of the music I download, of course--but lots of other people probably do.
(6) I believe that ripping off the artists is wrong. The record companies always rip off the artists. Artists support P2P, except the ones that don't (like Metallica), and they don't agree with me, hence they're greedy or their opinion doesn't count or something.
(7) I believe that selling CDs is not a business model, but giving away things for free on the internet is.
(8) I believe that artists should be compensated for their work -- preferably by someone else. I mean, they can sell concert tickets (which someone else can buy) or sell t-shirts (to someone else) or something. As long as someone else subsidises my free ride, I'm coooooool with it.
(9) I believe in capitalism but only support music business models which involve giving away the fruits of ones labor for free.
(10) I believe that copying someone elses music, and redistributing it to my 1,000,000 "best friends" on the internet is sharing. Music is made for sharing. It's my right.
(11) I believe that record companies cracking down on piracy is "greed", but a mob demanding free entertainment is not.
(12) I believe that it's not really "piracy" unless you charge money for it, because, receiving money is wrong, but taking a free ride is fine.
(13) I believe that disallowing copying and redistributing music over Napster is the same as humming my favourite song in public. Because when I hum my favourite song in public, everyone likes it so much that they run home, get out their tape
recorders and once they've got a recording of it, they aren't interested in hearing the original any more.
(14) I believe that when illegal behaviour destroys a business, it's "free enterprise at work".
What I find amusing is that the pirates seem unable or unwilling to distinguish between creative activity and brainless copying.
Since a lot of the people here are GPL/OSS advocates: the "OSS way" applied to this domain is to learn how to play an instrument. Or how to sing or whatever. Then get together with a bunch of other people who can also play music, and make some noise.
One of the unfortunate things that has happened to the OSS movement is that a lot of the loudmouth advocates for it don't understand what it's really about. They view it primarily as a means to get free stuff, and then they turn their eyes from the free stuff to the non-free stuff and think to themselves "maybe I'm entitled to get that one for free too". The noble ideals of grass roots participation in the creative process, and/or supporting it in a principled way (namely, boosting the "free foo" movement by preferring free foo to nonfree foo), or for that matter, any other form of moderately principled codes of ethics, are completely lost on them. I think it's a shame that these leeches use OSS, but there's not a whole lot that can or should be done about that. But I'd be much happier if at the very least, they wouldn't confuse the OSS movement (free as in freedom) with the Napster driven movement (free as in "loader").
Does anybody in BSA et.al actually think that
1) bust all warez-d00ds
2) people will suddenly run-in shop doors to pay for things they previously only warez'd
3) profit !!
?
Who can be that naive ?
If people can't get their hands on SQL-server anymore, they'll use something else - maybe even Postgresql or Mysql.
And anybody can download Oracle for free.
I think, everybody should pay for his software (or her software), in accordance with the license-agreement.
If you cannot pay, look for something else.
If you don't like the EULA (media-player), look for something else.
If you think, the software is "not worth" the money it costs (like MS-Office), then don't buy it, buy something that offers better value, like perhaps Staroffice7.
Rainer
Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
I am a busy pirate type guy. Luckily I'm in Canada and can't have my IP released to cop-types. I will not pay for overpriced music cd's ever. I will not pay $60-$90 for a videogame. I do buy used software and music on occasion. I often buy new dvd's even although I can pirate them as well(and I do). I have not been impressed enough to go after a new online game since I bought my 'Generations Pack"(HL1, CS, OpFor). All my gaming mates switched to BF:1942. I actually bought and returned it because the netcode blew(I don't know if they fixed that yet). I will buy HL2 the day it comes out because I know it will rock. MS *DID* benefit greatly from it's early OS's being pirated across the planet. If you tell me they didn't I will simply call you a ninny. I will buy a quality new game that is released (or reduced)at a reasonable price. I think that if all the games, record, sw companies went out of business there would be a period of sadness followed by the open sourcers improving upon works already released. I think that these would be on average as good as their professionally developed counterparts. Hell, if software companies dissappeared (not likely and I hope they don't) your computer would last longer since you wouldn't need a new graphic card every 6 mos. to play open sourced mods. Anyway my point is that I love developers but hate publishing houses that rape customers wallets. You need to earn my money. Hey, after this "crackdown" Suprnova.org is still working fine.
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." - Denis Diderot
that says we obviously have too many FBI agents. This is just another case of Ashcroft grandstanding and going after the easier target to make it look like he is accomplishing something. Yeah, big tough Attorney General goes after a bunch of kids, this current administration is acting more and more like a bunch of school yard bullies. There are real criminals out there and are they going after them? Nope, lets bust a bunch of kids. What a fucking loser.
By the way, it is illeagal and if you participate it is just a matter of time before you are busted. I think this is akin to people who buy radar detectors so they can speed. What I do not like is them spending tax dollars on this, the corporations should be paying for the whole thing. It also bothers me that corps can buy public law enforcment, that just seems wrong to me. I just feel that private corps should not be given law enforcement powers without the peoples consent. Though it will not change things, everytime they come up with a better mousetrap the kiddies will become craftier mice, this is the way of the world, this is the game of warez.
Noo000ooo00000oOOOoo!!!111!111
Why do people always assume that an organization is only running on one track? Because they go after pirates, suddenly that means 100% of the entire organization's resources are spent going after those pirates, and the hunting of "higher priority criminals" has suddenly ceased?
Do you honestly believe that's how it works? Every single time some ignorant moron says something like this, I shake my head. "They should be devoting their resources to [INSERT RANDOM HIGHER PRIORITY THING HERE]." Uh, who said they don't? Because one small faction of their organization also happened to be doing something else? When Slashdot changes the way your comments are listed, does that mean 100% of the Slashdot crew was devoted to working on it? When a virtual memory scheme is worked on for the Linux kernel, does that mean 100% of all kernel development was devoted to that?
Give me a break. It's a faulty argument and you know it. This was probably the computer division composed of agents who specialize in computer crimes. God, you people amaze me sometimes.
-> pictures of the bust in the Netherlands.
Privacy is terrorism.
...that then can earn by welcoming piracy into their countries: do you seriously think that the new government of (say) Afghanistan gives one flying fuck about the profits of American companies?
The same might go for recently "deceased" projects like PlayFair.
Are there any decent hosting services available in Afghanistan, Iran, Russia, (insert any other country without decent copyright laws)?
Anyone have information?
Support a Europe-related section on Slashdot!
"People will spend money on value. Can we both agree on that?"
:-) About *right*: within the current framework of IP-law, one does not have the right, indeed. In regard to digitalised works, that is absurd AND not enforcable, you if I 'advocate' anything, it's that it's time to a change in mentality and adapt our current IP-rights.
Well, actually they will spend on added value. (whether this is real or perceived). This is not a moot point: even when a product has value, if EXACTLY the same product for/with EXACTLY the same conditions is offered for free, they will not spend money on it.
"Photoshop costs $600, and for some that's too expensive and for other's it isn't. Specifically, for those where a $600 package can get them an easy $30 an hour, it only takes 5 hours of work to make back the cost, and a day's worth of work to make a profit. At the end of the week, if that $600 package enabled them to do in 3 days what would normally take a week, then it's $600 well spent. That's value, right?"
Businesses and corporate users are always going to have it more difficult not to use 'legit' software. (Though many SME's actually do it anyway, because if you have 50 employees and you have to buy 3Dmax, for insatnce, you're going to have a bill in the tenthousands at least.) But for corporate users that can afford it, you are right: it's fairly easy payed back.
I was primarely speaking of the average end-user, however. Especially for music and movies, your example doesn't fly.
"However, here's where we start do disagree I think, those same people will be *equally* served if they warez Photoshop for $0. Spend $0, and still get the work done in three days. Is this what you advocate? If you do, then the people who make Photoshop (Adobe) don't get compensated and eventually can't afford to make a version upgrade that cuts down work by 20%, and both parties lose."
I'm not advocating anything as such, I'm merely pointing to the obvious and the fact that IP-rights on digitalised works are obsolete in this new era of global internetcommunication.
And I don't believe much about the 'if we don't ask ridiculous high prices for it, the creators will starve to death'-argument. The RIAA has been saying that for years. Well, believe me, music will still be made, copyrights or not, and so will software. In fact, the net has provided the means (and shown us examples) of softwareprograms of high quality that are not being developed by any one corporation.
"However you do say, "giant profits," as if profit were somehow wrong?"
Profits are necessary for a company, absurdly high profits are, indeed, wrong. If it wouldn't be, there would not be laws against pricesettings, monopoly-abuse and kartels.
" Shouldn't profit be commensurate with value? Adobe could charge $100 and it could charge $1,000 for Photoshop, and this will net them different levels of profit, but in any case no one has the *right* to share Adobe's work without Adobe's permission, unless you are also advocating for the cessation of copyright (which is amusing because your own site has the OPLA, which relies on copyright)."
The only advocat I use is yellow.
As for the OPLA; the license deals with exactly the problems I have mentionned. It alows free online distribution, but requires the authors' permission when you want to sell it in paperform. It is an example of an adaptation to reality, and tries to combine the best things of both worlds, something the RIAA is not willing to make, and which will lead to its complete demise in the long run.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
Reading this article I suddenly realized I am not using warez anymore for maybe six or seven years. (And I dont even know the names of the groups mentioned, strange...)
That's the time about I was beginning to switch to linux fading out windows only slowly because I was addicted to some games I bought as "originals". Today, 'doze are gone forever.
What is evident, these days there is no a single reason for using warez anymore. Open source filled the money/technology gap for poor people and/or countries. THAT is effectively a new revolution. Warez people historically demonstrated the simple fact that information has no atomic identity nor can be owned by subject. Open source movement is driven by the very same principal idea, a sharing of information constructs. I see that as a natural priciple, delimiting a beginning of an information age of the society.
In human history, any opposition to discovered natural principles by means of legal acts and sheer power led always to failures and sometimes to disasters. I believe same will happen to so-called intellectual property, patents on ideas and copy-right. It's only a matter of time.
LET'S BRING IN OPEN TECHNOLOGY, OPEN CULTURE, OPEN KNOWLEDGE, OPEN SOCIETY. Anything closed cannot withstand it in terms of history.
Remember, in Europe, it was only 200 years ago people were criminalized, jailed and executed for ideas of personal freedom, voting rights for women or 16-hour working day. And America was even far behind, with it's slavery. Today, a sharing music by children is a crime. One must ask, is this law "for people"? I shall oppose such law. No matter I never got a single mp3 file.
There you are, staring at me again.
Does it concern anyone else that the phrase "10 countries and the United States" was used instead of "11 countries including the United States"?
"The road from legitimate suspicion to rampant paranoia is very much shorter than we think." - Picard
Too bad I don't have mod points...and even if I did, the max score is 5. *sigh* Such intelligence is inspiring.
Jason Lotito
(12) I believe that it's not really "piracy" unless you charge money for it, because, receiving money is wrong, but taking a free ride is fine.
-----------
Damn rights, no harm no foul.
I read about folks on /. that don't think there's anything wrong with stealing software because it's not hurting anyone, they're just "stickin' it to the man!" Any lost revenue isn't really "lost".
Yet, these same slashdotters complain that they can't find a job anywhere, and they want jobs from these same corporations that can't afford to hire more folks.
Geesh.
Your wish is my command! :-) But I even got something better:
fairshare
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
I'm a janitor/student which means I'm not making tons of cash. I don't like making errors such as purchasing a something with an enormous advertising campagn, but alas, contentless. Instead, I like to download the illegal version of... say... Halflife and then buying the legal version because it is really very good and I want to play it online. Sure, I pirate a lot, but I also spend nearly all the money I make on media. Piracy just allows me to give money to the people who actually deserve it, as oppossed to wasting my money on a bad game, album, or movie.
When it comes to infiltrating and dismantling warez networks, they are amazingly good. So good, in fact, that they can infiltrate any target of their chosing whithin 6-12 months.
,by necessity, one that is open to new media suppliers, site owners, rippers, crackers, couriers, hardware and cash donors, etc.
And there is nothing that can be done to stop them. This being slashdot, a lot of talk about secure networks and encryption is going on. All of these measures are next to useless.
The Warez Scene is not an insulated and self contained entity. It is
It is *TRIVIAL* for the fbi to impersonate one or more of those again and again or even have deep undercovers that remain in the scene for years (spanning several busts).
The only new thing about this bust is the extensive cooperation of other governments in this operation. I have to admit that I did not imagine the FBI would bother but apparently, the pressure of BIG CORP International is now enough to warrant a cooperation and coordinated operations between countries that is usually reserved to drug and weapon traffickers.
Sad...
Those risks include negligent action on the part of the corporation. Negligent action that often occurs soley because of the pressure to provide a greater return on investment.
Therefore, the investors ARE shielded from wrongdoing by the corporate mechanism that was ultimately acting to fulfill their demands.
Building a better ribosome since 1997
Since we're reappropriating terms with long-standing meaning and context, why not warp the biggest and baddest one of them all, and just call it "content murder".
Theft requires the loss of a physical object (implies a degree of uniqueness and singularity for that object) from its owner, and piracy is essentially armed robbery on the high seas. Both involve physically depriving someone of physical things. Software (and music) is not physical. The media they are on is physical.
Next thing you know, Microsoft will start calling the adoption and existance of open source software "theft" (i.e., installing OpenOffice), because it deprives them otherwise of a sale of Microsoft Office, they'll start trying to harrass and make difficult those who use open-source versions of software products that they make (OpenOffice, Dia, Linux) in many ways (such as only allowing "licensees" to develop converters for their file formats, and any OSS app that can read a Word document must be violating IP restrictions SOMEwhere).
I feel sorry for the artists, but they've been taken for a ride by the radio-music industry for a long time. They just sound like prostitutes defending their pimps most of the time anymore to me.
The only thing being lost immediately is a potential sale (yet, oddly enough, there is not a complete relationship between the copying and loss of sale. There are probably more than a few Delphi developers, for example, who cannot shell out $3000 for Delphi8 Architect, yet they can get the evaluation CD from Borland and find a keygen for it. It may be just enough for them to use it to develop a project or two that they can sell, and then buy the full version. It is hard to learn and develop a program in something like Delphi in only 30 days...)
The funny thing is, that at least in Microsoft's case, they turned a blind eye to it for so long in order to grow their marketshare and develop MS Office addiction that only now are they trying to clamp down on essentially casual copying, because they cannot go after those who do it on an industrial scale (Ukraine, Russia, SE Asia, etc).
Oh well.
In other words, they went on Google and punched in Fairlight, Kalisto, Echelon, etc.
Yeah... Only world superpowers could have figured that one out.
It's generally true that a lot of violent crime (i.e. murdering your wife's lover) is committed in the heat of the moment, and the person won't necessarily reoffend and incarcerating them doesn't necessarily stop anything. Spousal abuse continues often because the spouse is afraid/coerced to report it, and law enforcement needs to be invited into the home. Other things like armed robbery are often committed by people who have no other means. So they're going to reoffend anyway.
White collar crime, on the other hand, is premeditated, and only done because its low risk and easy compared to the rewards. If its made more difficult (or the penalties made higher) it can actually be STOPPED. Unlike murders and robberies, people aren't (generally) downloading Daikatana 4 in a split-second rage or because they need it to live, they're downloading it because its there, they know they won't be punished and they kinda sorta want it and don't want to pay $40 for it.
Most violent crimes can't be proactively prevented, whereas piracy often can. Yes, they shouldn't be depriving local police of the ability to RESPOND to reports of these crimes, but I really doubt that's the day jobs of the coppers in this case.
I will concede that the products of these groups are often used to avoid purchasing the original game/album/whatever, however in the United States there is such thing as fair use.
If I own a copy of some game which employs copy protection (such as SafeDisc or SecureRom) it prohibits me from creating a backup; a right which I am legally entitled to. I have purchased many games that I can no longer play because of scratched, broken, or lost discs. However I still own the license that allows me to play these games.
These "syndicates" allow me play games which I am legally allowed to play, although the copyright holder would rather me purchase yet another license. Also, in most nfo files they claim that the original game was purchased legally, and also that the files they are distributing are for archival purposes only. The only real law that is being broken is the circumventing of copy protection under the DMCA.
. . . so before you blindly support the government upholding the "law" think about the real legality of the actions in question.
I've heard this alot, and I'm so sick and tired of it ... you're just watching too many movies where someone plays the maryter, or perhaps you're a politician.
OK, so what about Harriet Tubman, she never paid the punishment for running the underground railroad, and she was underground till it was all over. Are you sujesting that as a responsible person she should have put herslef up for execution? Are you sujesting, that if she was caught, that her or anyone should have accepted that fate? Well Bullshit.
Right and wrong choices exist independently of how much you are willing to stand up to the mob for them. Pull your head out, people aren't doing this to win a popularity contest, there are very real reasons to want to share and copy that exist independently of public sympathies.
The "right" to restrict what other people copy, is wrong, is harmfull, is untenable, and unacceptable, is phoney morality, and there are plenty of reasons not to want to go along with it and fight it even if you aren't willing to expose yourself to public lynchings.
Interesting that they only had 12.8 gigs... they must be new
Even in the years between the first gulf war and the second, many soldiers in the field had enormous communal stashes of MP3s.
Saudi Arabia, for example, was notorious for confiscating anything/everything coming through customs that looked remotely suspicious, or violated islamic law in any way. This included fitness magazines (showing skin between the neck and ankles == BAD), CDs or DVDs with racy covers, any/all pornography, bibles or non-muslim religious tracts... you name it. This customs search even covered US troops rotating into country to participate in Operation Southern Watch (enforcing the Iraqi no-fly zones and defending the KSA's hide).
And yet... the people they had inspecting bags at the customs tables had clearly never seen an external hard drive, and they never searched laptops... so digital music/movies made it in no problem, and were immediately shared among the deployed soldiers and airmen. Yes, it's illegal, but it was great for morale... and somehow I can't see the MPAA/RIAA getting upset. After all, It's not like you can just run out and buy all their music/movies in the middle of a fundamentalist islamic nation (and soldiers might even buy better copies when they returned home, particularly if it was something they liked and/or had never heard before).
Besides, gathering evidence would be impossible... Saudi Arabia doesn't even issue tourist visas to non-muslims. How do you possibly track all the little LANs soldiers set up? How do you get the military to let you monitor their base network (hint: NOT going to happen). It would also be absolute political suicide to go after soldiers. Can you imagine the magnitude of the public relations backlash if the RIAA/MPAA prosecuted? Squeezing fines out of a bunch of homesick grunts just trying to survive and have a taste of home makes Ebeneezer Scrooge look like a philanthropist.
That'd be be like prosecuting grandmothers and children (Oh... hmm. Nevermind)
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
If it weren't for piracy I never would have bought games like COD and BF1942. After discovering the enjoyment of single player gameplay I decided to buy the full versions. As is often the case. Not always though, obviously a majority of games blow, so they just get deleted.
Had I not played the pirated games I never would have bought them. So the pirating of Call of Duty led directly to sales. Had it not been for the copy of COD I played you developers never would have rec'd my $50. I can think of almost a dozen games I own where that has been the case.
And demos can be very misleading. Splinter Cell for example... after playing the demo I decided I would never buy it cuz it sucked ass. After playing multiple levels via an FLT release, I found the game very enjoyable, went to Gamestop and picked it up.
I imagine this is very often the case as a large group of my friends do the same thing.
This is one you see on Slashdot in EVERY article about the RIAA:
"Every album is full of filler; I only want one or two songs. Why should I have to pay for the whole album?"
Sure, "filler". Typical Slashbot excuse, repeated almost verbatim.
Among the groups targeted by Operation Fastlink are well-known organizations such as Fairlight, Kalisto, Echelon, Class and Project X, all of which specialized in pirating computer games, and music release groups such as APC.
Place your bets, everybody. I know which one I'd bet my money on. WTF was the DOJ thinking?
It's a very dark ride.
You forgot one important thing:
The average VPN is far too complicated to set up for the typical war3z idiot. It's far easier to set up a Hotline server than it is to muddle through the immense complexities of FreeSWAN. And even though FreeSWAN CAN talk to a Win2K box, you don't want to KNOW what you have to do on the Win2K side to get it working.
With AlQueda, the War in Iraq, drugs, what a stupid waste of law enforcement effort going after stupid crap like this and that.
The only reason this is getting any attention at all is places like the RIAA, MPAA, DirecTV, and other big businesses tossing mountains of money in the appropriate Senator and Representative's direction.
In this case, the money is in the software companies so law enforcement works for them right now, not the average american citizen, who will not see any real benefit from busting video game pirates.
I'll even give you the answer - its the "average american citizen" that you talk about in your post. Do you have a 401(k) fund? Do you own any kind of mutual funds? If so, you are almost certainly a partial stockholder of Microsoft. Do you own any technology funds? If so, then you would probably see some benefit from "busting video game pirates."
Corporations, while they do have a separate legal existance, are at the same time nothing more than a vehicle for their stockholders to transact business. Oh, wait a second, you say that you want your investments (and your bank's, etc) to do well? You do want the companies you own to defend their property using every legal method? You get annoyed and agitated at the idea of corporate malfeisance that costs the shareholders their hard earned money?
And yet, you expect an arbitrary punishment of Microsoft to be a Good Thing for the average american citizen? It doesn't exist in a vacuum, you know. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be benefits, or even that those benefits wouldn't outweigh the costs, but its a long way from the slam-dunk that you suggest.
Or do you just not have any savings, and expect those of us who do to take it in the balls for those of you who don't?
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
Troll?
I could be wrong, but given the quality of the grandparent post, and the lack of anything really snarky in the parent, I think it was probably in earnest.
The Dalai Llama
... somebody with mod points hook a guy up so he can at least break even...
My sig could be your sig!
So, you know what it's like to deal with conglomerates like EIDOS or Electronic Arts I take it, being a big, bad 50K developer and all, right?
EA and Eidos (and others) are the record companies of the game biz. Do you think the developers WANT garbage like SecureROM and other lame, compatibility-busting copyright protection garbage on their art? FUCK no. It's put there by EA, EIDOS, and every other mega-fuck-you-in-the-ass conglomerate. Small developer houses have NO SAY in the matter.
It is not easy to be a game developer these days, cut them some fucking slack.
"The ongoing investigations were assisted by various intellectual property trade associations, including the Business Software Alliance, the Entertainment Software Association, the Motion Picture Association of America and the Recording Industry Association of America."
None of those organisations wants (IMO) to obey any laws that they havent written and to then have them "assist" in an investigation as serrious as this makes me very worried about things to come.
My undying gratitude to you, good sir. I've been on the fence on this topic for some time now and, at long last, having read your comments and seen your arguments for Abortion, US Law and Vegetarianism, I've made my decision.
I should also point out that it was your charm, wit and prowess at commanding the English vocabulary that helped me arrive at my long drawn conclusion...
I'll have steak for dinner.
fs
p.s. PRO-CHOICE!
thanks so much for this comment, I'm a songwriter and it's difficult to get these points across on slashdot
www.alexanderperls.com
While I'm mostly in agreement with your points, I'd like to try and hone your argument a bit more.
Number 3: Piracy is driven by overpriced CD's
The RIAA lost a judgement because they colluded to artificially inflate the price of CD's. At one point, CD's were extremely cheap. I remember buying CD's for an average price of 10.49 or 9.99 Canadian, about 6 bucks US at the time. That price in Canada has now climbed up to an average of 18.00 (almost DOUBLE).
Guess what: I buy the same number of CD's now in a year as I used to buy in a month Becuase
1. I'm buying DVD's (over 150 now)
2. I'm buying diapers for my baby (not in my 20's anymore)
3. I've replaced all my vinyl and cassettes.
4. The number of artists creating music that I enjoy has decreased significantly.
I am the RIAA's worst nightmare, because I prove that they distort the facts to suit their purpose. I don't download MP3's but my CD buying habits have decreased by 80% annually. They lose probably 1000 a year because of me...
There are thousands more like me. I just think it's a bit ridiculous that the governments of the world have swallowed the content industries argument so wholly. We are going to lose control of our open systems and hardware becausse of what is basically a lie, that mp3 sharing is the downfall of the record industry.
I see I've gotten offtopic here, so I'll get back into it. As I mentioned before, I think you're pretty much bang on in your post. I just think number 3 might be stricken out of it to make it that much more effective.
Suppose you helped develop Adobe Premier Pro, and are dependant on its sales to feed your family. Do you really want someone in Taiwan running a server off which people can download it for free?
These people may not buy it anyway. So? I don't go steal a Lexus just because I can't afford it/don't want to spend the money on it.
Music piracy is a bit tougher, though, because there are already so many mediums on which to get free music, like radio. Just giving the other side for a change.
How is busting people breaking the law not enforcing copyright? Watching people dance around this is hysterical.
I love the hypocrisy of a website that expects companies to follow the copyright of the GPL while suddenly becoming passive toward the enforcement of copyright when it comes to warez, mp3s, or anything else we damn well know takes up 99% of the traffic on Kazaa and eMule. Double-standards suck.
Okay, that's an amusing list of arguments, many of which are actually made by some of the kids online. I get the feeling that your intention is to suggest that these are the only arguments for widespread distribution (a straw man argument), but *shrug*, maybe I'm just misinterpreting. However, one of the arguments you're mocking isn't quite as obviously wrong as you suggest.
I've never heard of a parking infringement, but I suppose. I do hear "illegally parked" or "parking violation" (which was what my last parking ticket read). Those are perfectly reasonable terms, after all, one is illegally parked and one has violated parking laws. I'm perfectly fine with copyright violation or illegal copying. Both are accurate descriptions of the crime. Copyright infringment is arguably more accurate (since you're infringing on exclusivity granted to someone else), but violation or illegal is certainly nice and accurate.
Piracy, on the other hand, isn't terribly accurate. Piracy's has multiple definitions and those different definitions are governed by different laws and punishments. Many people (myself included) feel that we need to reconsider our intellectual property laws, that perhaps they've become unbalanced and no longer serve the common good. It's important to have accurate language in such a discussion; colorful terms and phrases like piracy cloud the issue. Those people and businesses interested in maximizing the power of copyright deliberately chose words like piracy and theft because they know they have emotion impact, it's easier to get people to agree with ideas like "theft is wrong" without having them consider the details of what they are agreeing too. If they used words and phrases like illegal copying they know that some people will step back and ask, "why is the illegal? What is the real harm?" This sort of misdirection is unnecessary. I certainly believe that copyright law is a good thing. I would be against abolishing copyright law or eliminating enforcement. However I arrived at those conclusions through reason and the facts, not through emotional arguments and colorful phrases. Shoplifting a CD is a very different action from downloading an illegal copy online, trying to confuse the two is a false analogy. If copyright really is right why not defend it without descending into logical fallacies?
Search 2010 Gen Con events
If you want a bigger challenge, check out the hardcore "sim" market (think tanks and flight-sims, not "Those Darn Sims"
Spell cheek you've failed me four the last thyme!
You are right on. I do think the recording industry should shoulder a lot of the blame.
I buy a fair number of cd's in a year. As a rule I don't use kazaa/winmx anymore. Maybe if I want a rare song i'll go look for it.
The problem is there isn't much new music coming out that I like. I don't buy hip-hop or Britney etc... and that's what is being produced, so I look for when the artists I *do* like release new material, then I buy it.
If the RIAA was more interested in promoting something out of the mainstream they would see more of my money.
Oderint dum metuant
Super. I just checked my favorite torrent site, and its still in operation. This whole thing is PR stunt anyway, and will never have any real effect. The sun will go Nova before people stop trading information.
What happens when everybody suddenly has Internet2 and can download your game in 30 seconds after installing a quick app (eMule 2.3 or something)?
.RAR file for people to just leech from my hard work. Music sales are going down, PC sales are going down (hence the flocking to consoles), and eventually movie sales will be going down though the only thing really keeping them alive is the fact that you can't have a home viewing system as good as big theater's.
You think you're still going to be selling 5M+ then?
Everybody around here purposely ignores the inevitable conclusion of a file-sharing network designed to trade massive files, but with no enforcement of what is traded--nobody making money on anything that can be copied.
I'm a musician. Sorry, but I don't want my stuff going around in a damn
This attitude of "piracy is okay" sickens me. Just because you claim to have sold a lot of games still doesn't give piraters the right to pretend the copyright of a product magically transferred over to them.
But, it's not surprising that mentality pervades this place considering that recent Slashdot poll showing that the majority of Slashdotters are either college students or unemployed......
Yes, piracy does affect many companies bottom lines, but blaming it for your not getting paid a few bucks extra is just moronic.
Why? It's common logic that the more piracy becomes prevalent, the more sales will be affected.
And it's downright human nature to want to get something for free instead of paying for it.
Feel free to ignore both if you'd like, but it weakens your position.
(3) I believe that piracy is driven by "overpriced CDs" even though CDs have dropped in price over the years.
They have? That's news to me. When I got my first CD player in 1985, the average price of a new CD in a record store was $12. In 2004, the average price of a new CD in a record store is $18. Now, granted there are bargain-basement $5.99 CDs these days, as well as sale-priced new releases at the $12 or $13 price point, but as a whole, CDs aren't cheaper today than they were nearly 20 years ago.
Does that excuse "piracy," or "theft" or whatever you want to call it? No, it doesn't, but let's ratchet down the level of nonsense in the rhetoric used here. "Stealing" isn't the right word for making an unauthorized copy of something. The original still exists and can be sold to someone, and "piracy" is a loaded word with completely inappropriate connotations. How about we just call it "unauthorized copying" or "copyright dilution"?
I've always had a problem with software and entertainment industry estimates of losses due to unauthorized copying. First, they assume that every copy illegally-made represents a lost sale, which is nonsense. If a 15-year-old kid has 8,000 songs on his hard drive, there's no chance in hell that he would have bought those 8,000 songs if he hadn't had access to them for free. He might have spent anywhere from a few hundred to a couple of thousand bucks on music, but there's no chance he'd have bought 600 CDs worth of music at $15-$18 a crack ($9,000-$11,000).
And here's another thing: Twenty years ago, my friends and I taped songs off of FM radio and played them in our walkmans. Or we'd dupe our LPs onto tape and trade copies with each other. I easily had access to ten times as much music as I could afford to buy, but in spite of record industry whining, I bought *more* music because of that practice, not less.
One study stated that that kids and adults alike who used the original Napster were more likely to buy music than people who didn't. Numerous studies have shown that there's zero correlation between "piracy" and the decline of sales for the music industry. Is it any surprise to people that the last year of sales increases for the music industry was the last year that the original Napster was in operation?
This is not an apologia for listening to music without paying for any of it. It's simply a realistic look at what's really going on. The record industry has its head up its ass and always has. Suing and prosecuting your customers is bad for business.
Software "piracy" is different, but not *that* different. Much of the software industry used to accept that "piracy" was just another form of marketing. Microsoft has always given lip service to stamping out "piracy," but until they had established a monopoly, they did virtually nothing to prevent it before the fact because they knew it was easier to convert a "pirate" into a paying customer than it was to get a skeptic to buy from you in the first place. Most people these days will automatically use MS products, so now Microsoft puts copy-protection technology in its products to force people to pay up-front.
Is making an unauthorized copy of music or software theft? According to the law, it is. However, there needs to be a middle ground between the "information wants to be free" left and the Ashcroft search-and-seizure right.
Most people would gladly reward artists and programmers for their work. That's how shareware works, and it made Phil Katz a substantial amount of money before his death. So how about we find new ways to reward creators of content, instead of finding new ways to criminalize what people have done for decades?
Don't misunderstand me. There are true criminals out there who are selling counterfeit or other illegally-copied versions of products (such as music and sof
Billg has been complaining about piracy since the very beginning, yet he still somehow ended up being the richest man in the world.
Because, after all, a group as huge as the FBI doesn't conduct multiple investigations using multiple divisions, thereboy enforcing all laws.
What's the point of having laws if you're not going to enforce them all?
Just because they go after some warez kids doesn't mean the other 98% of the organization magically shuts down. Stop with this goofy argument.
I certianly have the RIGHT to have the crack and keygen to any software I legally own.
But he said "rip and crack." He's talking about ripping a game to put online and sticking in a crack so others can play it.
I, too, use NoCD cracks. A lot of game developers actually don't care all that much. Publishers make them put copy protection in. Can you blame them? They figure that any little positive thing they can do to battle the rampant piracy going on is a step in the right direction.
I don't think people here realize how much of a cultural upheaval this is going to be--a negative one. There won't BE another id Software in our lifetimes if we keep pirating the hell out of everything.
Take your avarage Windows owner and calculate how much the software on their computer is worth in the shop. I think many people would hit five digit numbers. The ones hurting the most from piracing is low cost alternatives and "one time applications". Like Partition Magic or when you d/l and app to rescue an important document instead of buying it, youre only using it once right? Open Source also has a disadvantage at home since most people hasnt got a clue what the apps they use would cost them. Would they be forced to pay up many wouldnt think twice about using O/S alternatives.
All in all fighting piracy is good if its done the right way, Bustin small groups of warez d00ds wont make a difference. Piracy must be made shameful or else all the polices in the world wont help. All it will do is create a fascist society.
HTTP/1.1 400
Since we're reappropriating terms with long-standing meaning and context, why not warp the biggest and baddest one of them all, and just call it "content murder".
"Intellectual Genocide"
P2P IS THE ARTIST HOLOCAUST!
The name escapes me at the moment because I don't want to invoke Goodwin's Law, but it seems that there was another straight laced individual in history sometime who didn't dance, smoke, or drink. Eh, I'm sure someone else here will remember the name.
I used to do warez back in the day, but its such a pain, and with the quality of OSource stuff these days I don't see a need.... for those of you who are into games remember that you can play all the quake 3 mods for free (Urban terror, enemy-terrirotry) for free under linux
come comment on the madness at http://slashdot.org/~phreak03/journal/
How much will all this cost?
Because with people not having medical insurance, people sleeping on the street, a war in Iraq, and violent crime, I can't help but think there's a better use for the money. Let the software companies enforce their own copyrights, like before the DMCA and NET Act.
"Do I dare disturb the universe?"
You have some good points, but some things should be clarified..
3.) Most CD's are quite overpriced and the public now realizes this. Allow me to plug Mangatune.com Reasonable price, actually supports the musicians. (:
4.) Copyright duration is way to long and it is having a dramatic effect upon society
5.) Legitimately free music/whatever as advertising is nevertheless a valid business model to gain popularity.
6.) Artists are, in fact, getting ripped off due to the perceived need to cut a record deal to "get known." They would be much better off thinking like entrepeneurs.
7.) "Giving stuff away on the Internet" is not a business model, but it can be part of one if done correctly. Look at Homestar Runner as example: free cartoons that got so popular that the authors now make a living selling plush dolls, t-shirts, and bumper stickers. It would never have succeeded as a pay-for-content site because it has to compete with Cartoon Network, the Simpsons, and the like..
8.) Not everyone is looking for a free ride. The fact that people are more than willing to pay for concert tickets but many now hesistate to buy CDs says more about the market than morals. People are simply putting far less value in recorded music.
9.) In a purely capitalist, laisez faire economic system, there is no such thing as copyright. It's not an assumption or requirement. That's not to say that it's always bad, but rather that there are plenty of natural ways to make money that do not involve artificial government institutions. Open Source has already succeeded in this field; independent music/film is still on its way.
10.) For the majority of human history, it was a right. Copyright is a modern experiment. It may or may not last long term. My guess is that a fairer balance will be struck.
11.) What signifies greed is the motivation, not that they are exercising their legal rights. Numerous studies have shown that P2P and other bootlegging has a minimal effect on profits, while significantly expanding the spread of content. It is more likely that the 'cracking down' is more out of fear that they are losing control of the traditional distribution channels.
One of the unfortunate things that has happened to the OSS movement is that a lot of the loudmouth advocates for it don't understand what it's really about.
Absolutely. In my definition, Open Source is about meeting software needs in the most efficient way possible. That does not always mean a free ride. Open Source is about turning an artificial "manufacturing" market into a labor market, the latter of which allows full, unrestricted motion of the "invisible hand of the market." Capitalism works best with many buyers, many sellers, and minimal cost of entry. That is what Open Source enables.
They view it primarily as a means to get free stuff, and then they turn their eyes from the free stuff to the non-free stuff and think to themselves "maybe I'm entitled to get that one for free too"
While I agree that many mistakenly see OSS as "free lunch," I don't see your secondary point in any true OSS advocates.
Anything can be made a crime if you pay some group to pass a law to make it one [see also: marijuana laws];
After all, some evil corporation paid the government to make it illegal to distribute someone's works so that they don't get paid for their efforts. Right.
After all, nobody but an evil corporation would think people should be paid for their work. Let's pirate the fuck out of everything instead so there's no incentive anymore to make a living.
Are you, by chance, a college student? Just curious...
Might be useful for the lawyers!
I could not agree with you more on every point. I'd mod you up if I hadn't let my mod points expire.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
When I got my first CD player in 1985, the average price of a new CD in a record store was $12. In 2004, the average price of a new CD in a record store is $18. Now, granted there are bargain-basement $5.99 CDs these days, as well as sale-priced new releases at the $12 or $13 price point, but as a whole, CDs aren't cheaper today than they were nearly 20 years ago.
From 1985 to 2004 we've seen the consumer price index rise about 70%. That would make your $12 1985 CD cost about $20.40 today. So even if the average price was $18 as you say, they are cheaper than they were in 1985. In reality, NPD MusicWatch says the average price of CDs in 2003 was $13.42, down 2% from 2002.
Although most of the piracy apologists follow your reasoning, you fail to concede that there is a middle-ground. The internet has opened new ways to make business. However, for the last ten years, the music industry establishment has done nothing but try and keep the old business model. Why?
I'd wager that current publishers think they hold the middle-man spot because they have a strong grip on product exposition. The internet makes product exposition a lot easier, and has the potential to downgrade the middle-man value, therefore causing the whole industry to 'deflate'. This deflation is overall good, for public and artists, but is obviously bad for the editors.
In the end, give or take a couple of years, alternative music selling models will break through the barriers. Then, middle-men (editors) will have to excel in the role they are really needed for: weeding out bad artists, so people don't have to listen to every band out there. Then, only then, we'll again see great bands. Bands that really innovate the way music is created. The last ones, for me, were Nirvana, the pilar of the grunge movement. From then on, no really great global movement came out from the music scene. (The boy-band, girl-band movement fails on the grounds of musical quality).
I finish the comment with a glimmer of hope: Magnatune. Magnatune is clearly a small shop. However, it's a small shop, almost a one-man stunt, with a really innovative business model. And you know what? It's currently profitable.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
All that actually appears to have happened is that a bunch of people got busted for doing something illegal, and they happened to be doing it with computers. That does not make it relevant to my online rights, unless someone thinks we are supposed to have the right to do things online that are illegal offline.
This cracker round up is a sign I'm certain!
As someone else beautifully pointed out with regards to Slashdot:
Obviously, the only thing that would make warez sites and online piracy organizations morally objectionable and properly subject to sanction would be if they distributed, sold or bartered binaries for derivative works of GPLed software in violation of the GPL.
You may not be a troll but you're definitely delusional.
Ripping apart all the freebie-seekers from the podium of OSS self-righteousness still doesn't validate the blatant lopsidedness and anti-competitive behavior of the reigning software giants.
I agree, there are lots of lazy snobs out there that feel that everything should be given to them on a silver platter without requiring any effort on their part. However, it is still a moral fact that the current laws and regulations favor people who already have enormous bank accounts, squash any newcomers with better ideas (or force them to be absorbed), and continue to feed wealth to companies who pattern themselves using the bully tactics of _real_ syndicates like Microsoft.
There is no way that you can possibly argue that the current laws foster progressive competition, positive diversification or a "share the wealth" attitude. It's all a pyramid scheme.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
New CDs (not used or closeouts) have been $13-20 since they were introduced in the 80's. I'm not sure a new tape was six bucks in the era of the cassette.
I can remember when the term "pirate" was worn with a badge of honor by Commodore 64 warez-trading punks who thought they were part of some outlaw underground. Blame them for the phrase, not the copyright police.
So, would you rather have the government chasing after imaginary terrorists and squashing the civil rights of citizens? Or going after software thieves?
The RIAA and other industries can sue away - in fact, I think we are regularly informed that they are doing so. Sure, they face obstacles - copyright infringment must be proven and some people may actually want to protect their privacy and may even have other substantive arguments to make. Nothing guarantees the RIAA or any other industry a clear win in a civil case - they might even lose some cases. That's the way it works - that's how it was designed to work.
Meanwhile, the fact that our and many other governments are using up taxpaper money to fight for the interests of the RIAA and a few other industries is seen by me as a waste of resources.
If you had this "infringement" problem, the FBI would just laugh and laugh at you - you'd have to investigate it yourself and sue for infringment - just like any other penniless schmuck. Lucky for them, the likes of the RIAA can just buy these subsidies via the legislature. For very little money the RIAA gets access to extravagant pork - the money you worked hard to pay in taxes.
Someone wondered why the topic is categorized under "Your Rights Online." It's categorized that way because it's your money, dingbats, that supports this nonsense. It's your money that subsidizes the law enforcement overkill over concerns peculiar to but a very few industries.
You know, murders do actually go unsolved while the cops dick around with bullshit like making the RIAA happy. I'd rather have more real law and order and leave the RIAA to its own legal remedies.
You cannot create information. You can create a peeled orange from an intact orange. But when you sit down and write a song, somebody else can write the same song independently. Oh, and don't even try to use the word "steal"!
-I am an elective eunuch.
Not in Vancouver BC, they weren't. Not just closeouts either. At the height of the vinyl/cassette replacement period new realeases were cheap. The record companies have done a very good job of inflating the price. That's not to say they should be sold for marginal cost (about
"buying less CDs"
Damn right, brother. I used to buy a shitload of CDs. I no longer do, largely for the same reasons you mentioned. DVDs just have a much better shelf life.
Nowadays when I do buy CDs, I almost always buy used. The only CDs I buy new are the half a dozen or so bands / artists that are still producing music that I'm willing to pay $15 per album.
Proletariat of the world, unite to kill RIAA
In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
WMDs anyone? What's happening is more and more are engaging in 'standard opperating procedure'.
So you're with us on abolishment. But philisophically we can't be calling it creation, or else we'll get into the whole steal/copy thing too. Did leibnitz create calculus? But Newton already did? You can't create information.
-I am an elective eunuch.
Stop with the grandstanding Ashcroft. You've accomplished absolutely nothing here. It's just like the "war on terra {sic}" and the war on drugs. You haven't dismantled anything. Someone new will just take their place. How do I know? I was a slug slow 9600 baud BBS courier for TRSI 15 years ago and the scheme is obviously still running. Ya know?
"They have? That's news to me. When I got my first CD player in 1985, the average price of a new CD in a record store was $12. In 2004, the average price of a new CD in a record store is $18. Now, granted there are bargain-basement $5.99 CDs these days, as well as sale-priced new releases at the $12 or $13 price point, but as a whole, CDs aren't cheaper today than they were nearly 20 years ago."
Per NPD MusicWatch, the average price of a new release has dropped to $13.42. That's the mathematical average, which means that some retail for more, and some for less, and geographical differences will apply. If the average price of a CD in your area really is $18, consider shopping on Amazon, or using an online service like iTunes, where an entire album can be had for $12 or so.
I also got my first CD player in 1985, and I remember CDs being $18 or so, but I probably lived in a more expensive part of town than you, figuratively speaking. Let's use your $12 number to save time. $12 in 1985 dollars is about $20 in 2004 dollars; if prices hadn't gone down, we'd be paying $20 per CD today.
As you know, when you spend money on a CD, some of it goes to the artist, some of it goes into a record company's bank account (if they're profitable), but most of it goes to somebody's salary, whether they work at the CD pressing plant, or they're behind the counter at the record store, or they're one of the many people in between. As the cost of living has risen in the past 19 years, so have salaries, and the cost of physical goods have risen accordingly. If what you really meant is that CD prices haven't dropped enough, remember that it could be worse -- look at what's happened to the price of automobiles during the same time.
Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
I recognized all those groups and rejoiced when I saw my favs weren't on there. They got some pretty big names in the scene though.
Maybe where you live but copyright infringement is not a crime in my country (yet), it's a civil matter. Therefore "illegal" is not accurate, it's flat out wrong and it serves the purpose of making people fear sharing with their neighbour because they think they could go to jail. The correct term is "unlawful". For example, slander can be unlawful but it cannot be illegal. You can be sued for slander but you can't go to jail (how obsurd would that be?) Copyright infringement is the same.
How we know is more important than what we know.
It helps a great deal getting your point across.
My comment is this:
At one point, CD's were extremely cheap. I remember buying CD's for an average price of 10.49 or 9.99 Canadian
The cheapest CD I've ever bought, new, is something like $10 US. I don't consider this to be extremely cheap when 15 years ago I bristled at the cost of casette albums that were $8.
CDs are supposed to be cheaper to produce, far cheaper, but have not pushed the costs down to benefit consumers. Repeat with dvds and carts. At least DVDs are in the 10-$20 range like VHS is.
Allright.
Fairlight has been around since C=64 days.
The earliest Class release I can recall is Quake (it even had it's own installer with chip-tunes built in).
Is UCF dead too? how about RiSCiSO?
The crap thing really is going to be that all good the no-cd cracks/patches will be gone.
I still buy games from the store. And to be honest, I always install the game, then go searching for a patch/cracktool so I can put my originals back in the box, and on the shelf.
I paid for Windows XP Professional, but got a keygen anyway so i'd still have my original box/key packed away safely. Call me wierd.
If you lose your Everquest registration key, is EA going to give you a replacement so you can install? hell no, you've got to go buy a new copy, or download a keygen...
I actively search the $10 and under bins at Best Buy/Brandsmart for games that I wanted to play but just felt they cost to much. Case in Point --> Enter the Matrix.
I bought ETM the day it came out. (The same day Reloaded came out in the Theatres). It cost me $50. 2 weeks later it was down to $39.99. 2 *MONTHS* later and it's a fucking $20 game!
What do Ebbers, Lay and Kozlowski have to do with the RIAA, MPAA or software associations "forcing" the Justice department to go after software pirates?
Tyco, MCI and Enron are not parts of those conglomerates.
They know what's better for you, for Iraqis, the world! But it's lasted so long because law enforcement has latched onto it as a big money stream. How rightous and noble eh?
Awww, maaan, I get some of my best shit from Class and APC.
This isn't the truth, but an opinionated response with all the bias one can expect from a human. To that end, here is what I wish to say concerning your list of piracy apologists.
:) j/k
(1) I don't personally believe in copying CDs illegally-- but I think we should avoid using unkind words like "piracy" to describe those that do -- instead, we should describe it as an "infringement", much like a parking infringement.
I don't care if they use piracy, content murder, or artist gangbang to describe copyright infringement. I'm sure they don't mind us calling them the son of Satan, either.
(2) I don't believe in the record companies emotively abusing the word "theft," but I do believe in emotively abusing words like "information," "sharing," and "Copyright Enforcement Militia."
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by emotively abusing. Are you saying that record companies cry for "stolen works" while hackers cry for "caged information"? Hackers are information hippies. I'm sorry that people here do not always make that clear enough when making their statements against the use of words by the record companies.
(3) I believe that piracy is driven by "overpriced CDs" even though CDs have dropped in price over the years.
Ignoring the issue of whether CDs have dropped in price over the years (which being a non-buyer, leaves me at a disadvantage to answer), I don't think that piracy is driven by overpricing any more than it is driven by any other sole element. I wouldn't be surprised that it is the case, however, for some people.
(4) I believe that piracy is driven by overly long copyright duration, even though most pirated works are recent releases.
Well, technically it is. You can't pirate what isn't copyrighted, so any "overly long" duration causes what would be perfectly legal copying to be piracy. Now, I will admit that at the same time a sizable (but, I wouldn't say "most") percentage of pirated works are recent releases. There's people pirating just about anything under the sun, software wise, since the 80s. The fact is, the actual copyright holder for most such software is unclear, and enforcement is lax as generally the "damage" in lost current or future sales is nonexistant. In such a case, it seems clear that copyright is obviously overly long by at least 75+life years (ie, copyright being over 10/20 seems to not really matter for software).
(5) I believe that illegitimately downloading music is giving the author "free advertising". I don't buy any of the music I download, of course--but lots of other people probably do.
Well, it is free advertising. That doesn't mean the authors any more happy about it than writing graffiti along a lot of buses. I think the point that was trying to be made was that if you d/l and the artist doesn't sue you yet, maybe it's because they don't mind. I think the anonymity of the internet might have something to do with it too.
(6) I believe that ripping off the artists is wrong. The record companies always rip off the artists. Artists support P2P, except the ones that don't (like Metallica), and they don't agree with me, hence they're greedy or their opinion doesn't count or something.
Not to be a complete ass, but a lot of artists are currently in contracts with the record companies and plan future dealings with them. Bad-mouthing them now is unlikely to help them in the future even if it does increase sales a bit (sympathy buyers). At the same time, not all artists are unhappy with their relationship with the record companies, so they're obviously not going to bad-mouth them either. So, I think your comment is obviously leaving out some valid points.
(7) I believe that selling CDs is not a business model, but giving away things for free on the internet is.
I believe that selling CDs is a business model, but having others sell your music for you while you get lots of royalties is
Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
yawn. title says it all.
Here was I thinking that "fast links" were used to transfer warez. Guess it's back to waiting hours for ISOs to download.
Why the hell do you think PC sales are so low, and so game companies are turning to consoles? Don't give me the "games were better in the olden days" spin, because we've got everything from Far Cry to Invisible War to SimCity 4 to Rollercoaster Tycoon 2 to...you get the picture.
I could go on and on about why PC sales are low, and I'll tell you what.. Piracy is the least of those problems. Let me just sum it up in a few quick points.
1) Many more consoles out there than there are computers THAT PEOPLE PLAY GAMES ON. Hence, a FAR bigger market. Again, this is a no-brainer.
2) Hardware compatibility problems are nill when it comes to developing a game for a console. You got *ONE* system to program the game on. I dont need to elaborate on this. Further, the worst support calls a company will get is 'My CD is scratched.'.
3) You can pirate the SHIT out of Xbox games. Put a mod-chip in, replace the HD with a fat 120G one, and start downloading your games, pal. You can even download save games (for the truly lazy amongst us). And after all this, guess what? They are still whipping the ass of the PC games vendor.
[ed. And by the way, I am a PC gamer.. I prefer the PC over the console anyway, but I'm also not an idiot, and very well aware of the market penetration that consoles have.]
There is absolutely, 100% nothing wrong with the government cracking down on this.
Thats right.. lets spend millions in dollars and hundreds of FBI man-hours to arrest some 15 year olds pirating Halo. Sounds like money well spent to me. And before you go off and say (like another poster did), "I hope a cop laughs at you for getting mugged, since its not as bad as being murdererd or rape." That is so retarted. You are comparing bodidly freaking harm to pirating a video game.
Finally, I must say that the financial loss to pirating can be completely argued. Its been said a hundred times by people who have pirated software that they wouldnt have spent the money on it ANYWAY.
But see, to find the *actual* financial loss would take research, and why would companies even bother with the actual figure even if they had it? Its in their best interest to throw up a big BILLION DOLLAR figure to get people like you to freak out, and the government to go into action with "our" money.
++Om
it's amazing that a bunch of out of work programmers can be soo against keeping money from pouring out of their industry. It makes as much sense as the same group of out of work programmers demanding the use of open source software where, for the most part, no-body has a 'job' where they get paid making the software.
Ashcroft sets the priorities for the FBI.
If you are unaware of the state of enforcement of computer crimes against networks, you are ignorant. Here's an exercise left to the reader: run a network or even just a website. Antagonize a skript kiddie clan. Watch as they obliterate your net presence with bandwidth attacks. Contact the FBI. Watch them do nothing. Contrast with 1) being a big campaign contributer - watch them allocate resources to stupid, trivial shit.
The FBI can't investigate everything. It is investigating prostitution in New Orleans, peace groups, and warez doodz. And with what is left, it allocates to organized crime and terrorism. Yeah, they do more than one thing at a time, but they shouldn't spend any time on economically insignificant copywrite violations against politically connected corporations until they have done a much better job against the serious shit.
Sorry your attempt to burst the bubble was so lame. Try again?
I'm not especially anti-Bush. It's just that anyone with a grip on reality looks that way.
66% of all corperations do not pay taxes here in America according to Lou Dobbs.
If these multi national, multi million dollar corperations arent expected to pay up... why should those individuals making pennies be locked up for essentially doing the same thing?
They avoid paying taxes, yet use our tax dollars to lock up those who do not pay for their overpriced software.
If everyone at the table cared about the quality of life... the right things would be done.
Just look how insane all of this has become. The sentences for downloading mp3's are insane! How about software? movies? etc. We're talking about 0k-40k a year individuals here. People who simply can not afford the prices.
software/etc piracy "syndicates" that actually profit off warez/movies/watever were generally over seas. But now here in America... That same extreme level of wide acceptence of piracy has become the norm. The only cause i can see is that AMERICA has finally become apart of the 3rd world community in that our working class can not afford the products being sold.
Boston tea party folks... This stuff is NOTHING NEW to civilization. The RESULT is piracy, the problem comes from the top, not the bottom.
At the local shopping mall over here.. for a good 10 or more years they have been selling BOOTLEG Imported HK/ASIAN cinema on DVD and VHS. They sell out of a LEGIT rented booth at a MAJOR MALL.
At first the films had cheap ass vhs cases with photocopied covers. Now they have progressed to legitimate looking dvd's shrinkwrapped etc. They still look "off" but they're getting convincing.
These guys have operated for years and no one cares. I mean right in a MALL!!! They rent their store space!!! They're in a mall were sam goodie, radioshack,jc penny, sears, EB, kaybee, mcdonalds etc all are... BUT NO ONE seems to care about the copyright holders of those asian films.... that or no one has ratted these guys out yet.
America is starting to look like the china shops in china town, or the stores in china the country.
Why?
I can only assume that people are finding it harder and harder to make a living that maintains the standard of yesterday. We're quickly becoming a like the rest of the world that CANT AFFORD OUR AMERICAN PRODUCTS
Because the Bush Administration was installed and has a primary support base among religiously conservative and poorly-educated types. These people do not generally read Slashdot. As a result, a disproportionate number of people on Slashdot don't like Bush much.
There are a lot of people that worry that the country is going to the dogs, that immorality is running rampant, and that some good old-style religious family values will keep things together.
Once the Baby Boomers start dying off from old age, I'm guessing and hoping that things will be different.
May we never see th
Intelligence? You must live in some backwater cabin in the middle of nowhere, without exposure to any real intelligence to think that his line of "Devil's advocate" is intelligent.
Come on, he just spews the opposite of a bunch of different opinions he sees and tries to attribute it all to the same person or group of people.
That takes no intelligence, and it does not make him correct either. It's the same bullshit line I see every day here on slashdot. There's always some pompous ass thinking they're being insightful for pointing out how immoral everyone.
I think we are far more likely to see music being created primarily by sampling and copying everything that has been transformed into digital form for the last 50 years. What we have seen in the last 10 has been where laziness and theft can subsitute for creativity, laziness and theft win hands down every time. Do you really think music is going to be any different?
I don't see how this fits into "Your Rights Online". I don't think it was ever expected that we had the right to be in a warez group....
Why won't slashdot let me change my terrible username
>As the cost of living has risen in the past 19 years
Definitely.
>so have salaries
Somewhat, although certainly less than the cost of living.
>and the cost of physical goods have risen accordingly
Perhaps, but I personally doubt it, due to the sheer volume of physical goods being produced, thus at cheaper prices than ever before.
I also got my first CD player in 1985, and I remember CDs being $18 or so, but I probably lived in a more expensive part of town than you, figuratively speaking. Let's use your $12 number to save time. $12 in 1985 dollars is about $20 in 2004 dollars; if prices hadn't gone down, we'd be paying $20 per CD today.
I understand the concept of inflation. But please remember the CD player that I got in 1985 sold for $260. It held one CD at a time, wasn't portable, didn't have a remote control and didn't have anti-skip shock protection. Today, CD players with those specs cost $20. Why? Improvements in manufacturing, reduction in the cost to produce CD players and the biggest reason: economies of scale.
For some of the same reasons, the CDs themselves also cost less to produce today than they did in 1985. The difference between 1985 and 2004 retail pricing of CDs is other record industry costs. In 1985, Michael Jackson, Mariah Carey, et. al. weren't getting huge guaranteed contracts for albums that don't sell. Record companies today are paying Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera big bucks up front for records that are supposed to earn enough money to pay for all the marketing costs that get poured into marginal acts like Creed.
The problem is that record companies only know how to sell you what you bought last time, so innovation has been completely eliminated. They force-fed us more clones of Britney Spears until people stopped buying those CDs. In their rush to find the next Avril Lavigne, they completely missed out on the concept of finding quality artists recording quality music, so Norah Jones sneaked her way to selling 18 million CDs with virtually no promotion by her record company.
CDs cost more today because record companies changed their business models. Instead of finding and developing lots of inexpensive new artists and allowing the market to decide what's a hit, record companies today insist on pushing the same crap they sold us last year until we stop buying it, and they spend a fortune in promotions to try to reverse the inevitable declines. When we stop buying stuff we're tired of, the industry blames "piracy" for their decline in sales. But the real reason we stopped buying music is because they stopped publishing music we wanted to buy. How else do you explain the success of Norah Jones and the soundtrack for O Brother Where Art Thou?
Its nice to see that copyright is starting to get enforced.
You may be surprised that I find the idea of copyright in the digital age outrageous.
My prediction though, is that as soon as copyright is actually enforced, society will shun it and abolish it.
The only reason Copyright is enjoying some public acceptance these days is because people don't believe it applies to them in practice. In fact, most of the copyright-defenders in Slashdot probably copy many of their software/music illegally with all sorts of self-justifying excuses - not seeing that everyone does this, because copyright is simply wrong.
4. The number of artists creating music that I enjoy has decreased significantly.
Music tends to be very important for younger people (IIRC, this phenomenon started in the 50s - am I wrong here?). If you are "older" now, you likely enjoy listening to songs of your era, not the "rap-filled crap" that the loose pants, basketball-fixated boys listen to these days.
Refutation follows.
The above idea is presented as if it's prima facie absurd, without bothering to explain why it might be absurd, Since no justifications or reasons are supplied, we must set this argument aside. Next.
"What's good for the goose...," etc., etc. People who indulge in histrionics ("piracy", indeed) to make their point should expect to receive the same in return. It's certainly not the fairest way to conduct a meaningful, enlightening debate. But I don't see intellectual property adherents abandoning their rhetoric any time soon, so we're kinda stuck here. Next.
Inaccurate. Retail price of CDs has remained almost flat for the last twenty or so years (unless you're talking in Constant Dollars, in which case the price has fallen). However, manufacturing costs over the same time period have fallen precipitously (today, less than USD$1.00 per CD, silkscreened, in a jewel case with liner). Traditionally, this means a corresponding reduction in consumer pricing. This hasn't happened in the music space. No justification for this has been presented. Did everything else suddenly get more expensive?
Since the music labels refuse to afford consumers the cost benefits of advancing technology, the consumers have opted to take matters into their own hands. See Smith, Adam; and Hand, Invisible.
The first problem with this is that it is a tautology, and therefore invalid. The copying would be legal had copyright terms not been extended, and extended again, and extended yet again.
The second problem is that no one is claiming that long copyright terms are "driving" unsanctioned copying. It has long been self-evident that the copying is being driven by a marketplace demand that has yet to be met by the record labels. People wanted their music in a compact, easily-moved, unencumbered form that lent itself well to external data processing and manipulation (e.g. build a "jukebox" on your own laptop). Since the labels didn't move first on this, the marketplace did. Now the labels find themselves fighting the First Mover's Advantage. If they wanted to define the marketplace, they should have moved earlier.
The statements are juxtaposed to suggest they are related. This is a false association. Music downloads can be "free advertising" and still be worth paying for (in higher-resolution format), or drive the sales of something else.
Also, consider the converse: Suppose I downloaded and saved every Web banner ad I saw, then made them available on a P2P server for people to download for anthropological study, or just to laugh at. Ads are most definitely provided for free, and are meant to be viewed by the widest audience possible. Yet I would still be smacked down for copyright infringement. So the idea of copyright existing primarily to protect a revenue stream doesn't hol
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Actually I like Hip-Hop, Punk, and techno. Just that most of that has been washed out too.
Though I must admit the mega pants look funny.
Because you're a fucking tool of the copyright cartels. Go fuck yourself sideways with a broomstick you sanctimonious asshole.
Mods: you can go fuck yourselves too for modding this shit as insightful.
Conversely, I have never watched any film more than twice, so I rarely buy DVDs. I have listened to many of my favorite albums hundreds of times, so I continue buying CDs. And $15 is not much money for me to pay for that amount of entertainment.
No, you can steal an idea.
It's been part of the law for ages. Take patent infringment for example. That is theft of an idea.
Theft doesn't require something physical.
You make some excellent points and you are absolutely correct that CD players and CDs are marketed in radically different fashions. Specifically, CD players are now commodities. The marketing spend for CDs is perhaps at its highest point ever.
Naturally the record companies say that piracy is 100% to blame for the decline in sales over the past few years. Slashdotters will quickly point out that it's everything but piracy; they also have some good points but I think many of us are "ignoring the elephant" a little too much. Both extreme viewpoints are self-serving; it allows the record companies to proceed with suing pirates with little remorse, and it allows Slashdotters to "share" all the music they can get their hands on without losing any sleep.
In the middle are the various research and analyst firms who specialize in analyzing markets. Several firms which I trust state that piracy is absolutely, definitely, part of the problem, but not the entire problem. The economy and competition from other sources of entertainment (such as the rise of the DVD market) are often cited by analysts as other principle factors.
Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
This is not an apologia for listening to music without paying for any of it. It's simply a realistic look at what's really going on. The record industry has its head up its ass and always has. Suing and prosecuting your customers is bad for business.
Along those same lines: I have been to see about 15 movies in the past two months. I've seen just about every movie that was of interest to me. I have to say I am getting livid at having to watch the anti-piracy advertisement before each movie starts. Why call the people in the theater theives every time they see a movie?
"You steal a candy bar from the store, or you download a movie on the internet, that's just wrong."
I have to say it makes me mad enough that I just want to say screw the $15 to see the movie, $5 for a Coke, and $5 for a popcorn - I'll just download it and watch the damned thing in the real world where a large popcorn actually costs about $0.10 to make and noone is calling me a theif.
"Now, I will admit that at the same time a sizable (but, I wouldn't say "most") percentage of pirated works are recent releases. There's people pirating just about anything under the sun, software wise, since the 80s."
r Cell2: Pandora Tomorrow [to...
l Bill Volume 2 SVCD TS-TCR CD3. ..i ch{German...i sted - Der erste Versuch by bit-t...
really?
Let's look at the current most download bittorrents shall we? (Source search.suprnova.org)
Games:
Hitman Contracts - Xbox USA Full DVD...
Knights of the Temple DEViANCE
HITMAN CONTRACS USA DVD(www.bCGp.net...
BREED-DEViANCE
Battlefield Vietnam 3CDs NeW TrAcKeR
UNREAL TOURNAMENT 2004 DVD-DEViANCE
Splinter Cell pandora tomorrow (4CDs...
BREED-DEViANCE_[bt-gm]_[EFnet]
Splinte
Fallout Tactics
GTA - Vice City
Oooh, yeah, look at all those ancient games there... all out of copyright there.
What about movies then?
Kill Bill Vol 2 DivX [New TrackeR]
Kill Bill Volume 2 SVCD TS-TCR CD1
Kill Bill Volume 2 SVCD TS-TCR CD2
Partyalarm-Finger.weg.von.meiner.Toc...
Kil
KiLL BiLL VoLuMe 2 TS TCR JB87
The Punisher(telesync)SWS
Kill Bill Vol 2 PROPER SVCD TELESYNC...
Kill.Bill.Volume.1.UNCUT.2003.DVDRip
Big.Fish.DVDR-DzN
Das.Urteil-Jeder.ist.käufl
Big.Fish.2003.DVDRip.XviD-DCN (AC3 a...
Scary.Movie.3.2003.DVDrip.XViD-ALLiA...
Tw
The Punisher VCD-Cam
The Passion Of The Christ [NeW TrAcK...
Oooh, man, That Kill Bill Vol 2 must be out of copyright surely?
Come on, you can't be serious in doubting that the majority of copied works are BRAND NEW. That's why people copy them, they want to see the LATEST things without paying for them.
I'm all for the old, 'lost games' and such being able to be downloaded... I mean, really, the companies have got their money from them by now surely... but that's such a small portion of what is downloaded, I don't think that it bothers the companies much.(A bit yes, as they wouldn't shut down ROM sites if it didn't)
"Perhaps, but I personally doubt it, due to the sheer volume of physical goods being produced, thus at cheaper prices than ever before."
It all depends on the type of product and the production costs vs. marketing and other COS (cost of sale) factors. CDs are a product where much of the selling price goes to cover the expense of transporting it, selling it, and marketing it. The actual cost of producing the CD is a pretty small slice of the pie.
Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
I'm replying to your sig.. this is something of interest to me.
How does "Any sufficiently advanced civilization either destroys itself or transcends to superintelligence." solve Fermi's Paradox? Why wouldn't we have seen some indication of superintelligent races?
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
Even w/VPN, 1PSec, etc.... There are a few words to realize w3're still not s4f3:
Carniv0re, Pr0m1s, 3chel0n.
It seems that the Fumbling Bumbling Idiots are now going after non-vi0lent citizans, Instead of going after the implanted "ev1l-do3rs" who will be target1ng thi5 country from the inside. Just an FYI...> Som3t1me5 you need to miss-p311 things since i's and eer's are always listen1ng 1n.
This is a sad day, marking a grim landmark on the recent hell-bent March Towards Fascism, where Tax Dodging Media Corporations are protected by the police we keep employed, and only rich people are allowed to use software and communication tools. Everyone else should be sent to work houses and punished for being poor.
So a tip of the hat to you guys; You will be both missed and remembered fondly. The days of the digital Pirate are slipping away. .
"If You Like This Program, We Encourage You To GO OUT AND BUY IT!
Hm.
-FL
I'm over 40, so I'm completely lost anyway.
One thing I cannot fathom is the branding phenomenon. My son, 13, had a couple of hundred dollars to spend recently and he decided to spend it on a pair of sneakers that cost $150!
Which is the worst part:
A) They probably won't fit him in 6 months
B) He can't wear them outdoors, because they are "indoor" shoes
C) Kids are now scammed into buying expensive crap due to peer pressure or perceived "coolness"
Coolhunters are evil.
The only reason that people get upset over GPL violations is that we *are* under an oppresive copyright regime and that punishment for copyright violations is way out of proportion to the crime. Even so, I'll bet that you can't find a single *shred* of evidence to support your underlying assumption (that being that people who get upset at GPL violations are also copyright violators).
Your argument and underlying assumption is a non-sequitur, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised since you're the King of Non Sequiturs. Think a little next time, before you go bandying about your stupid arguments. But then again, maybe you can't. Maybe you're *completely* incapable of logical, rational thought.
Me? I don't dance because I can't dance, though..
Why won't slashdot let me change my terrible username
2. ..(not in my 20's anymore) ...
4. The number of artists creating music that I enjoy has decreased significantly.
These two may be causally linked.
I think when a person is in school or other situations where they're surrounded by similar people there's more pressure to be tapped into cool music, or any kind of music, but once you're in real life around a huge diversity of people all with different tastes in pretty much everything, the pressure just dissolves.
There's plenty of great new music out there, but I think I myself will never buy a music album (I tried out a couple music clubs years back, but came out of it with way too much crap). Music recordings are nice, but not really worth money to me. Other than the twenty minute commute I don't really have places and time to consume it. I'm not going to sit around in my spare time listening to music, it just doesn't engage enough senses. I'd rather be watching a movie or playing video games or reading or working on creative projects of my own and not be distracted by music (if it's good, it's distracting, if it's bad, why the hell listen to it, and why do anything for fun that needs distracting from). That's just me though...
(2) See point 1.
(3) Price is only brought forth as an argument by people who did not think things through. The fundamenal cause is the fact that the whole process of "manufacturing" and "distribution" and "ownership" of information is a lie. Information is not an object that can have an "owner" and thus is not subject to a simplistic world-view concocted by one Adam Smith, otherwise known as capitalism.
(4) The whole idea of copyright is sheer lunacy to begin with. Discussing its length is like arguing over the type of brush you would use to paint the Moon green next Tuesday while standing on your porch. The fact that it is accepted as a de-facto "wisdom" is truly sad and depressing.
(5) Yes. And no, the author has no "right" to be selling "his" music. The only "right" he has is to perform the music he (or others) composed. If he can manage to get people to come hear it and they agree to pay at the gate, there is his source of income. If he is not good enough for that, he should get a day job. I will never get tired of saying that "art" is defined as a willingess to express ones thoughts and feelings in a way that others find it inspiring and moving. The very expression is its own justification and reward. It is not a "job", never you mind "industry". Art can be sponsored if it is particularly good and thus freeing the artist to pursue her creative urges. But it is not a business.
(6) Many "artists" (I use the term loosely since you seem to include all sorts of talentless commercial-jingle hacks in this) were mislead into believing that "art" is a career. That one can make a killing on it. Unfortunately its a lie designed by people who were in the business of marketing and distribution of their works. For a time it worked and was technically feasible. Not any more. Digital age has finally exposed the fundamental fallacy of "art as business" ideology.
(7) Neither one is a "business" model. Although one can make money around services based on free things, it is up to that person's business talents and other external conditions. Free stuff on the net is called Information. Information, due to its properties, is fundamentally not capable of being "owned" by anyone.
(8) Live performance and other equivalent labour can be monetarilly rewarded by the attending audience. Having the performance recorded once and then getting paid million times by having someone elses (fully paid for) equipment perform in your place, based on information embedded in a piece of plastic, is a form of fraud. Never you mind claiming that said piece of plastic is yours to control even though the sucker paid for it.
(9) You can easilly control access to live performances and thus ensure payment. You can sell t-shirts and all sorts of other stuff leveraging your name recognition. You can use your name recognition for advertising purposes. Thats capitalism. "selling" information that cannot be "sold" is a just con-artistry.
(10) You better believe it. Dissemination of information is not only my right, it is one of the most fundamental and un-alienable rights that trump most other gibberish that passes for "rights" and "laws" these days. Information = thought. And if you think that I will give up my ability to freely exchange thoughts and ideas so that a bunch if greed monkeys can get rich, you got another thing coming. While I understand that "capitalist" mentality is that "making profit" takes precedence over everything else in the universe, luckilly most of us do not subscribe to this lunacy.
(11) Noone can demand free enterntaiment. The consequence of information being not a "thing" that can be "owned" is that enterntaiment over digital media in exchange for payment is not viable. That is the logical downside of sticking to one's principles. Fortunately, the need for
I really, really gotta question if you have really ever purchased a game if you expect EA to give you a replacement key for Everquest.
So if I break into a bank computer system and transfer a million bucks from your account into my own account it doesn't count as theft because I didn't actually take anything physical. That's just semantics. If you don't want to call it theft, fine, but that doesn't change the fact that its still a crime.
you fucking troll
...all those arrested will be quietly released next week when the various police departments receive PGP-signed email instructions "from the courts" to do so.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
I agree. Those anti-piracy clips before movies annoy me so much! I hate being subjected to that despite the fact that I just paid for my ticket. Bah, take that crap somewhere else. I am your customer, not your enemy--treat me as such.
You are full of shit. Don't get your history of the computing industry from Richard "I am a goatfucker" Stallman.
That's MagnaTune.com. It is good.
This is not a troll, but the truth
Actually its mostly braindead rubbish.
(1) I don't personally believe in copying CDs illegally-- but I think we should avoid using unkind words like "piracy" to describe those that do -- instead, we should describe it as an "infringement", much like a parking infringement.
Its not that its "unkind", its that its semantically wrong, and only someone with a bad education (or immoral intent) would use it to twist the meaning, possibly with the intent to deceive. Piracy is robbery on the high seas, and that is not some 17th century nonsense with Johnny Depp, this is a fact - happening TODAY not only can things be really stolen, but sailors can loose their lives (and have). These widows probably don't take kindly to the term piracy being used for something as irrelevant as downloading of music from the internet. Especially since a study from Harward business school proves that it doesn't really harm sales.
Downloading music from the internet is (if you don't have a license) copyright INFRINGEMENT, it is not stealing. Stealing requires (by law) that someone is deprived of something physical. If someone downloads a track with Madonna, some of her dollars doesn't suddenly go missing - nor do they return if said mp3 is deleted. That is why it is infringement, not theft. If you take someones car they have lost the car and can't use it. Nothing needs be lost by the download of a song (still currently illegal though)
(2) I don't believe in the record companies emotively abusing the word "theft,"...
Well I do. They clearly do that to try and manipulate the politicians and people who are not burdened with intelligence.
(3) I believe that piracy is driven by "overpriced CDs" even though CDs have dropped in price over the years.
Piracy is robbery on the seas, downloading music is called copyright infringement.
They are vastly overpriced, presumably to finance a basically corrupt and immoral business model, and that may motivate some. Though the was majority of people use download like they use the radio, they listen to something which is good enough to pass the time but which really isn't good enough to buy (though as the study shows if something of quality comes along people do go out and buy it)
(4) I believe that piracy is driven by overly long copyright duration, even though most pirated works are recent releases.
Piracy is robbery on the seas, downloading music is called copyright infringement. The copyright duration is of course vastly too long , not only should it only last for a few years, but it shouldn't be transferable and certainly not last beyond someones lifetime, however it is very doubtful this has any influence on the copyright infringement as whole, though some few may do it for political reasons, which is silly since it has no demonstrable effect.
(5) I believe that illegitimately downloading music is giving the author "free advertising".
Well, that's what intelligent people believe, especially after the study from Business Hardward School proved has no effect.
I don't buy any of the music I download, of course --but lots of other people probably do.
I don't download music. However studies show that others do, infact they are making millions from it.
And now I've already spent and hour writing this, time I'll never get back, and i doubt you'll wish to enlighten yourself, especially considering the nonsense in most of the rest of the post, i shall end it here then.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Well, a purely laisez faire economic system may not permit copyright, but it does permit building devices that blow you up when you try to open them to reverse engineer or them. Since our government prohibits behaviour like that, its only fair that it provides other method to protect ones ideas and inventions.
Anyhow, their NFO's mention IRC channels, I go on some and get into a conversation with one guy. This must have been circa 1996-1997. Anyhow I tell him I have a spare Windows box with an FTP server on it, and he can use it for whatever. So what he does is upload some warez every day, and a handful of people download it (three to four). Every day I would check the box and the latest games and applications just cracked would be on the box. A maximum of five people ever logged in, so the chances of getting caught were limited. And if I was caught, I could always claim I didn't know anyone was using it, as using open, insecure ftp servers was common for distributing warez once upon a time. Anyhow, after a while, the box crashed and that was the end of that. I got a lot of good warez out of that deal, without any work, every day the latest warez and applications appeared magically on my LAN.
Dont you idiot know that to be eligible for Academic license you HAVE to show a VALID College ID? How's little johnny gonna have that until ~17??? Now stop trying to justify the broken laws and morals of your fucked-up capitalistic society
Your logic is completely screwy. Obviously, a new movie/game/album will be pirated more *right now* than old content, because there's more demand for it. However, if you compared the total downloads of all older content vs. the totals for stuff released in the past x days/months, the older stuff would dwarf the new stuff. The reason it doesn't show up on your list is that with old content, the downloads are distributed over a huge library of stuff, whereas downloads for new stuff all go towards the few things that are being released right now.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
Oh... so every time I download a song by Weird Al, he loses a copy? If I download enough copies, will I own them all?
Or are you using a ridiculously bad analogy?
I believe I will never ever buy another CD again. I don't know where the money is going anymore, why they are so expensive in the 1st place, and why I should be expected to pay for music I don't even like.
Really, do you think sniffing traffic and breaking into "warez" machines played an integral role in these busts? I doubt it.
The real problem (or the real solution depending on your point of view) is that warez groups are nothing without an audience. They are also nothing without new crackers, suppliers, distribution sites, hangers-on...
Its a problem with a social solution primarily and a technological solution secondarily. As what good is a VPN network of warez creation and distribution if you can still have one weak link, one infiltration, one "Donnie Brasco" to blow your whole house of cards down.
Encryption and authentication and access control are terrific for protecting your assets, only when you have a strong legal system to take over when there is a breach of authority/conduct.
And while I certainly would not put people who pirate software in the same criminal class as those who manufacture and distribute drugs, run prostitution rings, or fraudulently manage mutual funds... what they are doing is against the law in most of the world -- and they are organized.
http://windows.scares.us
...PBS stations all over the country have formed a viable business model on the assumption that the majority of viewers would be free-riders.
...If music isn't meant to be heard and shared -- to form a common cultural bond and experience
I noticed that you are approaching a point of view that I hold for some time now, alas without articulating it. Note that all of these answers and many, many, more solutions to the current legal and mental contortions introduced by the "Software Industry", sattelite TV broadcasts, etc. can be provided with a simple all-encompassing approach: information is not an object that can be "owned" and thus is not subject to the Capitalist model.
Information simply does not possess required physical attributes to be property. And as such it cannot be sold or bought. In this case the laws of Nature clash with laws of Capitalism. Unfortunately Adam Smith's model is unbending and unyelding as many rigid and simplistic philosophical systems developed in 19th century, with insufficient foresight. As some were short on understanding of the human nature (Marx), some others seem to fall apart when confronted with laws of physics.
Treating information as if it could be commercial property leads to all sorts of amusing perversions of law and to comical technologies, all designed to hide the very lie at their core. Only when our society finally understands this fundamental problem and abandons these misguided attempts will we be rid of this nonsense and associated political efforts to control the uncontrollable.
Something else to consider and what I think is the main reason the record industry will die unless it changes its business model is that its current business model has been broken by the internet. cdr's cost around a quarter and everybody has a cd burner. They cant justify 12 bucks anymore. why not put a big cd burning machine in the store loaded up with cd/r's and have a network connection to pull the requested album, print up the cover and paint the cd etc. it seems to me that a lot of the people in the middle aren't needed anymore. Too bad for them but I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily.
Certainly there's some truth to that. I was simply making the point that assumptions should be avoided. Of course, a counterpoint to your scenario would be that most sane societies, in either case, would have laws prohibiting any sort of dangerously "booby trapped" devices, whether sold commercially or given as a 'gift.' In the end, it all comes down to a balance between encouraging a vibrant economy and ensuring basic rights, freedoms, and safety. Often, those two goals actually go together.
I might be dating myself here but I remember the days in the mid- to late '80s of dial-up BBSes (bulletin board systems). Since there was no Internet at the time the BBS was the place for people to build communities online. Some large ones had racks of modems and phone lines coming in. But many were small boards with maybe four lines at the most.
As you might expect there were dating boards, just plain social boards, and of course porn boards. But the most exclusive ones were the pirate BBSes--also known as "elite" boards. You had to know a current member or the sysop to get access. And then you had to contribute by uploading software that you might have access to.
In these early days it seemed like many software developers used elite BBSes as free beta test groups. Those who downloaded the software (often taking hours even on the superfast Telebits and USRs) would test it and post any bugs, feature-requests, etc. There was even a super-elite board that I heard about based in Alaska where only the big name developers were allowed.
It was from that experience years ago where I think that some software piracy can/should be acceptable. What high school student can afford the $650 for Photoshop? But a pirated copy can train this student for work in the future, and the company that s/he will work for will provide a legitimate copy. Businesses is where most developers (with the exception of games obviously) make their money.
1. ditto to DVDs. But I don't watch TV/don't subscribe to cable (except my cable modem). If I want to escape at home, it's a DVD, not a CD.
..."
2. not in my 20's either, but not buying diapers (thank god).
3. I've replaced what I could, but some albums never made it to CD. Others I've looked at, and decided I'd never listen to them again. iTunes has allowed me to download one or two cuts from otherwise forgetable albums.
4. the number of MASS-MARKETED artists (clearchannel) creating music I enjoy HAS decreased significantly.
I've hit the big 50. I don't particularly care for geezer rock with a very few exceptions (neil young comes to mind). Oldies stations make me puke. The same 50 songs they've been playing to death for the past 30 years.
I am too old/white for hip-hop/gangsta.
I do like techno/industrial/trance (great for coding). Streamed from the web. Try finding most of that on CD.
But the biggest cause of my greatly diminished CD consumption was the great con pulled during the 70's when the record industry's answer to AOL (album oriented rock) was the one hit wonder. One good song with lots of air play imbedded in an album of pure shite. Usually easily spotted (once you became aware of the practice) by the sticker plastered on the CD case: "INCLUDES THE SMASH HIT
So fsck the RIAA. They did it to themselves. And judging by the news of per song/album price increases for online downloads, I'd say they haven't learned their lesson yet.
Yes, it's true. This man has no dick.
The price of cars has risen due to massive (and i mean massive) innovation, research, and advancement. The car industry employs Lots and LOTS of people to do very complicated tasks. The recording industry has seen the difficulty of their job (to distribute music) not only become much easier - its been eliminated entirely! All due to technology! Like Laim Lynch, artists can now record in their basement and sell it on their site. Thats all thats needed - no studio, no factory, nothing; the cost is magnitudes lower than it was. What were at here, is a media paradyme shift, only the industries are turning their backs to it; trying to snuff it, out or put a dog leash on it. You cannot tame technology or science!!
As for the original topic (warez), im just surprised t
It's been part of the law for ages. Take patent infringment for example. That is theft of an idea.
Theft doesn't require something physical.
No. You cannot. Simply redefining word "theft" to account for one's greedy attempt at profiting from something that is fundamentally not subject to the capitalist model does not make it real theft. Theft can only occur if a physical object is taken from you and as a result you are no longer in possesion of it. Thats it. No fudging, no but-ifs, no "alternate, modern interpretations".
Patents, copyrights and associated contortions and perversions of law are there because the "Intellectual Property" con-artists are adept at twisting the obvious so that the politicians and dumbfounded public go along with the scam. At society's expense naturally.
Is to use a hypodermic needle and suck the air out. I think it creates less of a mess than your approach.
Man, I love you!
I've said to these guys here and in a couple other stories, "Get some balls! If you don't like the law, disobey in such a way that brings public pain and suffering on yourself so that the general public can take one of the sides. Doing it in secret is only cowardly."
But noone listens to me, because they just want to justify getting free stuff.
Good thing is that, because I live in Thailand, I am used to this attitude, so it doesn't drive me bonkers.
Put identity in the browser.
Congrats! I think that you have just proved the parent's point to the letter.
Put identity in the browser.
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
Taken from The Letters of Thomas Jefferson: 1743-1826 NO PATENTS ON IDEAS
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
I'm always mildly disturbed by the fact that I can buy a DVD of a concert performance of most (recent) albums for a price very close to the MSRP of the CD.
The DVD will come with extra features, video, and lets not forget Dolby 5.1 surround sound.
If I'm going to buy music from a popular new artist, it isn't going to be on CD.
Killfile(TGK)
No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
Every one of your refutations is fundamentally asinine. Demonstration follows.
Irrelevant. This is a rather brilliant quip of sarcasm which you seem unwilling to comprehend. You see, it is quite common for people to construct meaningless arguments about semantics (which, you yourself are guilty of in your post), in order to further an opinion that they cannot enforce with actual logical argument (I'm not discussing whether such a position is defensible, just that the person utilizing the tactic lacks the ability for cogent debate). What term you use to describe the subject is irrelevant in the discussion of the relative morality of the subject matter, so long as what is meant by the term is understood. Quibbling over the term is merely rhetoric, meant to manipulate the audience to feel sympathy for the author.
The figures of this have been discussed elsewhere. I will not repeat them, as the truth of this statement is irrelevant. The cost of discretionary goods does not justify their unlawful appropriation. You cannot make a moral argument that consists merely of:
1. CDs cost more than I am willing to pay for them
2. ???
------------
Conclusion: I am morally justified in ignoring the law and making copies of music that I do not have the legal rights to copy.
A moral argument must, at a minimum, contain: a factual premise, a moral premise, and a conclusion that falls naturally and logically from the premises. There is no moral premise in the argument that CDs cost too much, therefore I am entitled to use whatever means that I please to obtain the music. Now, the only moral premise I can see that would fit this is: I am morally obliged to use whatever means I wish to obtain things that I do not require for survival (or something along that line). I find it hard to believe that anyone would find this moral premise acceptable, therefore they disguise their moral justifications with a baseless, question begging
(2) I don't believe in the record companies emotively abusing the word "theft," but I do believe in emotively abusing words like "information," "sharing," and "Copyright Enforcement Militia."
I don't see how referring to a sequence of ones and zeros as "information" qualifies as "emotively abusing"
One of the things about this that really irks me is the fact there are so many unsolved violent crimes in the world yet these governments spend so much time and resources on these "white collar" crimes. For example, about 530 am one morning at a store I was working at a man came in with pantyhose on his head and robbed the store at gunpoint. It took 40 minutes for any police to show up. They took a statement from me and two customers that were in the store. They also grabbed the tape of the robbery. That's the last I ever heard about this. I mean where was an enforcement of the law there? What kind of manpower did they devote into making my city a better place to live and getting that guy off the streets? Then a few months ago i was sitting at a red light had a sunburn and reached down to fix the sandles I was wearing. There was a slight grade to the road and my manual car rolled back and bumped the lady in a suv behind me. Of course, she calls the cops.... guess what there were 5 police cruisers there within 5 minutes. They inspected her bumper and couldn't even find a scratch. Doesn't that seem strange that I could get robbed at gunpoint and it takes 40 minutes for a cop to show up. Then I bump some lady's bumper and 5 cops can show up in a minimal amount of time? Gotta love the society we live in these days.... /end rant
So, make a moving graph of the age of various downloads at that point in time and I think that you'll see that the top downloads are always new (less than a few years) and never old ( say, more than the original fourteen year copyright). Just because Kill Bill will only be downloaded for a short time doesn't mean that old stuff is downloaded more than new, just that Kill Bill will be replaced by something newer in a month or less. Use your brain.
Put identity in the browser.
The solution to the copyright laws and the intellectual property cartels is simple: Vote. Not just in the major elections, but all the time.
That dick that wants to be your county judge just might springboard his career off your apathy and be the next circuit court justice siding with whoever pays him off.
Fucking care people. Kick people out who take payola. VOTE VOTE VOTE
Haha...stop being so naive the corporations will fall at the face of opensource.
I believe there is an honest purpose and possibly a moral reason to download a game or software. Advertising to me is very misleading. A good advertiser can make a piece of dung seem like a crown jewel that everyone must have. It is possible that if treated correctly the problem of downloaded music , movies, and software could be looked at as civil disobediance. What laws are in place to protect a consumer from products that are falsely advertised or advertised and portrayed in a way that is misleading? The better business bureau is in charge of monitoring complaints but because of the sheer volume it must be impossible for them to follow up on all claims. A safe and seemingly fair way to go about this problem is to download a piece of music, movie, or software to see if it really works for you. I have found in the past that sometimes what you thought was going to be the next greatest thing turned out to be pure unentertaining or unusefull crap. There are laws, at least in my state, that say if a software package has been opened that it is not possible to return the software for money. How does this effect the consumer? The software business is protected in everyway to make useless and very buggy material without too much fear once it has been released. Finally I'll say that downloaded music, movies, and software is not right. But it may be a moral civil disobediant way to deal with a problem that is bigger and out of the hands of greater society.
There is or can be built a machine that can simulate any physical object. -Church-Turing principle
Put it in your sig? Check some of argoff's comments, he really puts the case well against copyrights and patents. And don't feed those trolls.
-I am an elective eunuch.
Or, for more operative use, you may have the m-of-n split as a backup copy of the key, which may be erased at the moment the machine is moved without authorization. Then you can fully cooperate, while they still get nothing.
Funny, back when I was young it was skateboards (the wooden kind, with metal wheels, if you were lucky it had rubber wheels with ball-bearings) and bikes. Maybe a few Atari 2600 games. But those were so expensive, you were lucky enough to have an Atari, let alone a radio shack pong game or both (only because the radio shack unit precluded the atari) and pacman and adventure.
Then I got a bit older, got a job, saved up, bought my first Apple II. The rest is history, that purchase pretty much assured my learning assembly and becoming a geek.
But kids now-a-days, pc's are everyhere. They don't have to work to get it.
Which is the point I'm getting at. I'm not over 40, but I have a teenager that's approaching 17. She's the same way. Put $100 in her pocket, and it'd burn a hole. Assume she'd save it for a car? Ah, think again. It amazes me what she will choose to spend her money on. And I'm guessing you are in the same situation.
The good thing (imho) is that you, and I, are able to give our kids the *choice* of how to spend money.
If my kids blow their birthday/holiday/allowance money, that's it. They're stuck at home. So they, over the years (since they where pre-teens) were forced to evaluate the $ versus the value, and what it means to them - forced to budget everything.
It still boggles my mind that they buy such weird/extravagent (in "the parent's mind") things. But then I try to compare relatively their situation vs mine when I was a kid. Then I realize how lucky they are, and I was. Not rich, but not poor, with the opportunity to work for more if you were up to it.
And now that I'm getting older, I'm thankful that I'm able to make their lives so easy (imho, not theirs!). I often wonder what path my life would've taken without that first ti-99-4/a to tweak my interest in all of this shit.
http://slashdot.org/~tf23/journal
There are networks with anonymization of endpoints. Freenet is one of them. The "tightly closed" warez cells then can serve to quickly populate the encrypted networks with new stuff as it comes. The users then have to run a network client to get some "stuff", a task that can be well-documented so even mouse users can understand it.
It's terribly sad that we're so pedantic that we admit to a crime, we're just angry people tell us it's "illegal" instead of "unlawful".
Boy, oh boy.
10-15 years ago?
Fucking whippersnapper. You don't know shit about dick.
That's not their original slogan, either.
KILL A COMMIE FOR MOMMY
While I don't doubt that, I think it naive to measure all the results off one page which seems focused solely on new releases. It's like only doing surveys in Harlem and talking about how all crimes are committed by blacks. There's *lots* of places online trading all sorts of content. Yes, there are many places trading the most recent stuff in games, movies, etc. And there are places trading things ranging back to the 80s in software (music goes back..well, probably at least the 30s). And while I don't condone the trading of recent stuff, it's harder to be scoldful of people trading in stuff that you can't buy anywhere even if you wanted to (I'm talking about the old stuff, not the prerelease stuff).
So, if it were true that most pirating (which I think is too assumptive that it's most and not many or several) is of recent things, copyright doesn't need to last that long (your suggestion about the timeframe of newness being few months would be somewhat funny to witness as a guide for length of copyright, but not at all helpful...I think it'd have to be minimally a few years). But copyright owners, especially the big conglomerate backed ones, would rather it last forever so they can be assured they'll make the maximal amount of money possible. And I say that for what we get in return, copyright shouldn't last past a much smaller time frame since it is obviously has such a small rate of return for either us, the public, or them, the copyright owner.
Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
What do you call it when you go to a doctor and don't pay him?
What you would call it if you worked for a week for your employer and he decided not to pay you?
Are those theft? In either case nothing material was taken.
Put it this way,. As long as big industry is teamed up with the government there will always be war. War in Iraq with Halliburton. The Drug War and companies as well as the petrol chemical industry demanding Hemp and medicinal Marianna be treated as a felony. The privatization of the prison industry led to the war on people of color and prisons filled with people and government kick back contracts went to prison contractors who were allowed to build with no bids with campaigns contributions to congress.
As long as we have Big industry involved with government you're going to get less freedom and more government. Sure its Illegal. But who ever had died from Warez?
Why don't they get back to chasing Bin Laudens. O, well I guess its not Election week yet. Thell catch him then. Then make another 4 to take his place.
I say we get rid of big industry starting with the RIAA and the record industry,
Let em all run dry starting with the music industry.
Who are we protecting Jacko and Britney Spears and Governor Terminator?
I want them to sing for their lunch.
Have fun with the new Draft bill in congress tomorrow. How you like Freedom so far?
Some one has to cover the Oil contracts over there. Might as well yank some pre med students and send em over.
The real problem is the R.I.A.A! Get Them Out of the Congress Lobby!!
Theft requires the loss of a physical object blah (implies a degree of uniqueness and singularity for that blah object) from its owner, and piracy is essentially armed blah robbery on the high blah blah seas. Both involve physically depriving someone of physical blah things. Software (and music) is not physical. It's blah blah blah. The media they are on is physical and no different than an AOL disk blah.
Next thing you know, since it logically follows is Microsoft blah blah blah blah will start calling the adoption and existance of open source software "theft" (i.e., installing OpenOffice), because it deprives them otherwise of a sale of Micro$$$oft Office, they'll start trying to harrass and make difficult those who use open-source versions of software products that they make as all base belong to them blah (OpenOffice, Dia, Linux) in many ways (such as only allowing "licensees" to develop converters for their file formats, and any OSS app in soviet russia that can read a Word document must be violating nvidia's closed IP restrictions SOMEwhere).
I feel sorry for the artists, I pity them really, but they've been taken for a ride by the radio-music industry blah for a long time. They just sound like billionare prostitutes defending their millionare pimps most of the time anymore to me.
The only thing being lost immediately is a potential sale blah (yet, oddly enough, there is not a complete relationship between the copying and loss of sale according to my personal statistics. There are probably more than a few Delphi developers, for example, who cannot shell out $3000 for Delphi8 Architect, yet they can get the evaluation CD from Borland and find a keygen for it like I did the other night for VMware WOOT! It may be just enough for them to use it to develop a project or two that they can sell, and then buy the full version. It is hard to learn and develop a program in something like Delphi in only 30 days...)
The funny thing is, that at least in Microsoft's case, they turned a blind eye to it for so long in order to grow their marketshare and develop MS Office addiction that only now are they trying to clamp down on essentially casual copying, because they cannot go after those who do it on an industrial scale (Ukraine, Russia, SE Asia, etc).
Oh well. Everyone's stupid but me.
Double-Plus 5 Ironic Citizen more Fernet please.
There are networks with anonymization of endpoints. Freenet is one of them.
And it's painfully slow and inefficient (because anonymity creates overhead). You'll notice that warez groups don't use Freenet much today, even though they have a need for secrecy- because it's too inconvenient.
Freenet is also hugely vulnerable to "poisoning" attacks, where a hacker (employed by the RIAA prehaps) can DOS the system... anonymously and unstoppably.
However, if there WERE some technical improvements so that freenet was a practical tool for warez groups, then the likely result would be an RIAA/MPAA/BSA/FBI/DHS combined lawsuit to get freenet declared as a "protection circumvention device", illegal under the DMCA.
Then they could start arresting anyone who ran freenet, without needing to decrypt anything.
I agree with everyone. Now I really must load up another 50 mp3s at Kazaa.
My fav units are dead Mavs
Anonymity costs bandwidth. So you have to be patient. Not *that* big problem, especially with growing broadband availability.
Poisoning attacks should have a technical solution.
Regarding lawsuit, I want to see the EFF/Amnesty Intl./other organizations all in arms after the goons bust somebody who runs a Freenet node aimed solely for injecting "banned" information for Chinese dissidents.
The only wise thing I've ever read on the web is this: Even Jesus hates Creed.
Read the post here.
If you were using my program CF13, all your spam would have been funneled into two files for ease of perusal and deletion and all spam attachments (which are likely virus laden) would have been rendered 'harmless' and clearly labeled making it easy to delete them.
I could have programmed CF13 to delete spam at the server level whenever possible but that would inevitably lead to a 'false positive' and a non-spam email being deleted as a result.
If you'd like to use a 'spamblaster' version of CF13 (with the risk of real email deleted as a 'false positive') contact me here.
The music world is a brighter world if people would just experiment and open their ears. Don't get me wrong, I still want to pay legally with most of the money going to the artist, so I will and already have paid for CD's from independent musicians. FOR CHRISTMAS PRESENTS, I BOUGHT CD'S FROM UNKNOWN AND INDEPENDENT MUSICIANS. At least I know THEY won't rip me off and jack up the price to $20-$30 per album!!
I refuse to pay one more red cent to any major music label connected to the RIAA who are "the drug dealers" using us as "the addicts" shoveling their "payola," attorney-suing, executive/middle men top-heavy, pop trash-creating industry down our throats. The media likes to say that fewer artists will be able to fund their livelihood and tours? Au contraire, mon frere, as I post, local bands singing and playing live across the country are selling their CD's to their fans in local musical places and nightclubs right after they perform for them. Would I rather see a world with just a few big one hit wonder bands making all the money and the rest of the bands losing? No!! I'd rather see what I'm seeing now--lots of local and independent bands able to make decent money where they actually WORK for a living like the rest of us mortals getting the money they deserve without overinflated executives and middle men taking most of the money and leaving the artists with nothing.
I do disagree that things like movies and software programs should be legal to copy. Movies and software programs require long programming labor, research and development and undesired but necessary bureaucracies. The programmers and actors have to be repaid for their efforts.
However, music is another matter. I, or anybody in my family with a computer program can make a 2-minute song from our own lips or musical instruments or computers. So I'm supposed to hand over $20 every time for this?? Forget it!!
* weedshare.com 50% to artists, webjay.org iuma.com CDBaby.com Epitonic.com ampcast.com
Ya right FLT was gone and came back how many times now over the last 15-20 years of their existance?
I admit I am not familiar with the details of this problem, so I may be wrong. But can't be the "identity" of the file itself, eg. its SHA256 hash, used to authenticate it itself? Then spoofing the file would require finding collision in the hash, which is fairly nontrivial.
Furthermore, dissident propaganda is only illegal inside China, so he'd have no real need to run such a node inside FBI jurisdiction.
The need could be the desire to help the Chinese. The more systems run in the network, the more robust it is for all the users - including the dissidents.
Strange, so you're calling an addiction 'freedom'?
;-)
Mind you, I'm from the NL, so I'm used to a pretty liberal (as in free, not as in left-wing) view to drugs, but then again, we divide drugs into 2 categories:
1. Soft drugs, which are not or marginally harmful and not or marginally addiction inducing.
2. Hard drugs, which are harmful and make you addicted fast.
So I don't mind per se about selling 'soft drugs', but I do mind selling any drugs to children and I do care about selling hard drugs. Because you can ask yourself if children are ready to consiously decide whether they want to use drugs and when you use hard drugs, then you lose all your freedom. The only thing that matters then is getting your next shot.
Then again, a lot of people learn to live with their hard drugs addiction. We call them 'smokers'
At the link labeled
"serving 12.8 gigs of mp3's in Iraq"
I find:
"raoulduke1 Date: April 13, 2004 @ 11:04 PM
How fuckin cool is that.
"a communal computer where 12.8 gigabites of tunes had been downloaded for sharing on MP3's. The rule was simple: Take some music, add some music.
"Any time anybody on the team gets a new CD, they load it in, so we stay pretty current," said Sgt. Thomas R. Mena.
As the new CD from Tool blasted in the barracks, Sergeant Mena scrolled through the computerized music library, which ranged from Abba and AC/DC, through Limp Biskit and Metallica and on to Van Halen and ZZ Top.
Émigrés from West Africa who joined the Army for citizenship and career training arrived with the latest Nigerian pop CD's. Chinese-Americans hauled along hot Hong Kong video imports."
Unapologetic Copyright infringement by heavily armed American Servicemen."
Well said, raoulduke1.
Damn....that was ONE GOOD LAUGH. If I knew how this karma thing worked, I'd give you some of mine.
The good thing (imho) is that you, and I, are able to give our kids the *choice* of how to spend money.
Well said. I was thrilled to be able to buy a 15 watt Pioneer "high-fi" system ($500 at the time) and cool trucks for my skateboard - I think they were, like, 2" wide or something.
There used to be regulations regarding marketing to kids on TV, did that go away at some point? When did Levi-wearing explode into brandism for every possible product that children might use? I'm guessing that happened right around the time that the average investor ceased to give a shit about traditional stocks and started to get greedy.
I'm going to start from the middle and work my way out:
Very well:
Conclusion: The copying and sharing of computer data expresses and reinforces the moral values of sharing, and increasing abundance for all.
Corrollary: Constraining the copying and sharing of computer data acts against the moral values of sharing and increasing abundance by attempting to impose scarcity.
So the actual, real, honest to $(GOD) question that is actually before our society is: How can we reconcile the infinite sharing and abundance afforded by computers with our scarcity-dependent economic models? That is the question I've been trying to get people to ask themselves for years.
Trouble is, almost no one's thinking about it. The media corporations see nothing to reconcile; they believe the old way is the way, and anything that challenges it is clearly Wrong and must be swept away. Meanwhile, more thoughtful people see these attempts to place constraints on their computers, and think to themselves, "How dare you try and take this good and wonderful thing away from us! You'd better have a damn good reason..." So far, the only reason offered is to preserve the revenue stream at current-or-increasing levels. Which brings us to another moral premise:
Which causes the proffered reason to fail the "damn good" test. And therein lies the root of the conflict.
Were all participants in the debate fully informed on all issues, then such shorthand or "jargon" would be acceptable. As it stands, however, your counter-argument is disingenous.
As new people enter the debate and seek to inform themselves about the isues, semantics become very important. To choose a particularly crass example, it is no accident that the debate surrounding the practice of abortion is framed as "pro-life" and "pro-choice". Each side seeks, in the most lasting and immediate way, to paint their position in the most favorable light, and likewise their opponent's position in an unfavorable light. Hence our emotionally-charged terms, "piracy," and, "theft," rather than the more accurate
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
http://mjrider.student.utwente.nl/gallery/politie
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
That list was probably as wonderfully pollictically corrent in every RIAA way possible. And crappy as hell.
Just one important fact: Just because you believe that people aren't paying up, doesn't make it so.
0-day exists, so what? I download mostly old stuff, things the shops won't order in, unless asked for and bought. Jazz and funk from anything between the 1940s and the 1970s.
Stuff that should have been in the public domain a long fscking time ago, mind you.
Oh, and if I like it I buy it. Ooohh, imagine that. Your "I'm paying up, everybody else is a freeloading P.O.S."-theory doesn't add up. Now imagine that your theory is just figments of your very own imagination, relax, and realize you are not the only person on the planet paying for music. Most people actually do. Wow.
Someone buys more when exposed to more music, someone buys less when exposed to free music and someone else really couldn't have spent a dime on music in the first place (it's called poverty). What losses do this add up to? I would guess nill.
And if you take a look beyond the whining of the recording industry, you will see that they are fudging the numbers. Their business have never been better. They are releasing fever records than ever, yet selling more per release. Believe me, they are making a living allright.
The only product in decline is the cd-single. Which never really offered any value for money anyway. That's the free market for you.
So shut your self-indulgent mouth, please. Asshat.
Or to cite South park: "If you download music of the internet, these artists will be forced to live lifes of only semi-luxary". Gotta love that one, even if I proably didn't cite it correctly at all.
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
But in this case you are depriving them of their million dollars, no?
Don't forget DVDs. Buy a DVD and you are forced to watch 15 seconds of "FBI says copying DVDs is illegal"-crap. Didn't I just buy your product?!? Wankers.
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
Dude. You just got a friend!
Karma be damned. If you can't make a living without having police-state authority, chances are you should be doing something else.
And let true artists who does art for the love of art (not money) do a decent job.
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
One-eyed-Bush.
Since when does using drugs equal being addicted to them?
Neither are all hard drugs very harmful or addictive for you. Though some are. We're mostly following the party line on what substances to put on the list of hard drugs.
You'd better get a healthy dose of Bill Hicks, KamuSan.
I wish we would just legalize the whole shebang and make a nice economic market out of it. However, that would severely cut into the profits of certain organizations and fuck up the agenda's of certain people (though the terrorism/safety-line is pretty popular these days to get one's way).
They are abusive and immoral people who will stop at nothing in order to maintain their privileged and parasitic positions. The privileged, and the materialism they advocate, are inexorably destroying this world.
The upper class is the problem. Billions suffer from malnutrition and meanwhile Ashcoft spends his time persecuting geeks, most of whom made not one penny. Meanwhile, Bill Gates the Third cheats millions and steals billions and gets adolation and tax breaks for his illegal efforts.
Way to go JUSTICE Department!
I can only wonder why so many of you let people like Ashcroft abuse us and destroy the world we all must live on.
By the way, go ahead, pretend you don't care and aren't part of the problem. After all, it's not like you really care anyways.
I live in a small Georgia town. As CD sales have dropped, the number of stations playing good music has gone up. I attribute this to a number of people returning to calling their radio station to request music.
We've complained about it for a long time, but now I'd rather contribute to the advertiser driven sales model of music. If the radio commercials are entertaining, I'll listen to them rather than illegally downloading music online. It's simply easier and safer for me.
"Piracy, on the other hand, isn't terribly accurate. Piracy's has multiple definitions [reference.com] and those different definitions are governed by different laws and punishments."
Pirate and piracy are homonyms (or, depending on whom you listen to, homographs). Other examples of homonyms/homographs are "bank", "set", "polish", "desert", "row", and "bow."
Is it that Slashdotters are gramatically challenged and have some sort of difficulty with the English language not possessed by normal folk? I don't think so; most Slashdotters are pretty smart and the writing quality in comments is generally excellent.
Is it that the definition of "piracy" at hand is a new one, foisted upon the public by those evil copyright holders? No; it's been in common use by pirates and non-pirates alike to refer to software piracy since the 1970's, and is origins extend about a century back (it was originally coined to refer to the illegal copying of maps).
My best guess is that the "piracy shouldn't be referred to as such" linguistical movement on Slashdot is largely driven by folks who don't consider themselves to have the same psychographics as the 12-year-old warez kiddies, yet who still see nothing wrong with helping themselves to all the MP3s they can "share." They're searching for a more clinical term which also has the cathartic effect of being a euphemism, similar to how many alcoholics prefer the word "dependency."
Nonetheless, whether you (and I mean the general you, not the reader in particular) call yourself an "alcoholic" or a "dependent," it makes no difference to your liver or to your loved ones. Likewise, if you and a thousand other people help yourself to a CD via Kazaa to save the trouble and expense of buying it, and the artist could have used that money to pay their rent and would really prefer that you not pirate their work, it makes no difference to them if you call yourself a "pirate" or a "downloader." They're still likely to call you an "asshole," and it all makes no difference to their landlord.
So, let's all pick the word that makes us feel good, while we download away. Me, I have no problem with the word "pirate." As you've pointed out, it's in the dictionary.
Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
I don't think there is any question about whether it would piss off Disney et al., the question is how severe their reaction will be.
Now, as long as the server is physically hosted in Russia, and the back-accounts are also in Russia, who is going to stop them? Would being a (say) American citizen that participates in this hypothetical Russian firm be reason enough to be prosecuted? After all: you're not breaking the law in the country where the firm is established.
BTW: How is the state of the net in Russia (I'm just informing here)? Good fast backbones and good international connections (directly to Europe, I suppose?)
Support a Europe-related section on Slashdot!
Funny thing is, none of the artists are to blame. It's not like they own the copyright... they gave it up to "the publishers". It's these non-artists holding the copyrights for the sake of making money that is causing the problem. It's not about art, it's now a sweat shop.
I do realize that we are not arguing here at all...
Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?
I have been on the internet since 1994 and Warez was one of the first things I found out about. I thought this was the coolest thing in the world. Being an avid gamer I began to search for hours for cracked games to download. At this time I learned two things, that the internet was really freakin' slow! And that it cost more to download a game than to buy it! I was on AOL because at this time there wasn't such a thing as a local ISP in my area at least. I also was in a rural area so it was a long distant phone call. I can't remember exact specifics but I think it costs me about 300USD to get two games... only one of which was functional.
This was the beginning of my entry into the world of online piracy. I eventually got high speed internet and found out about abandonware which contained a lot of classic games that I missed so I concentrated on these files. Abandonware is legal to download... for the most part at least from my understanding.
Then came the P2P file sharing and .mp3 boom. I downloaded
literally hundreds of songs through Napster like thousands of others till it
finally got shut down. At this point in
time my thought was that I was just "an individual" and not worthy of the time
of any law enforcement but just in case I hid my Metallica
and Dr. Dre tracks when I heard they were suing
individual users for downloading their materials.
About a year ago I found out that you could download entire movies from Kazaa that hadn't been released on DVD yet and in some cases hadn't even been released at the theatres! Well this was the coolest thing I'd found since the first Warez site I'd ever seen! So being "an individual" user that wasn't going to profit from the materials,I started downloading and sharing tons of movies.
About six months into my new movie pirating past time my internet connection suddenly went dead???? I figured just a hiccup in the system. Two days later it was still down so I called my ISP.
Come to find out my account "had been suspended for 3-days" for the illegal download and sharing of movies via the P2P. "Well how did you know I was doing that"? I asked the technical support guy at my ISP.
"We received a letter from the motion picture association stating that you have been illegally infringing on copyrighted materials by downloading them via Kazaa"
Well I couldn't believe my ears... it was impossible that a small time player like myself (I had maybe thirty movies on my hard drive) could be worthy of their time? So I waited till my suspension period was up and started right back in! I got away with it for about two more months till I got permanately suspended by my ISP after they received another complaint from the MPA.
Well I guess I was wrong, I was worthy of their attention and also I was lucky! They could have sent the police to my house and took my computer. They could have filed lawsuits against me and put me in prison. All of these things took time to sink in though.
I can tell you that at this point in time I am on a cable connection and I haven't even installed Kazaa or any other P2P apps on my computer. I haven't even downloaded any abandonware just in case. It simply isn't worth the risk. I did an FDISK on my computer and everything on it is legitimate. It's still tempting to download movies, especially when I see a new one advertised. But I now wait till it comes out and I get a chance to go see it at the theatre or rent it on DVD.
Everyone has to make their own choices about what to do. File sharing has made it so easy to download copyrighted materials, Hell I know 12 year olds that are doing it on a daily basis. Their parents have no idea of what they do on the computer. How they will stop it entirely is anyones guess considering it looks like an impossibly monumental task. I hate to see these people go to jail though, getting busted and having their systems and their "hobby" taken away from them is sad to se
Jay Dale "If you're not living on the edge then you're taking up too much space!"
The English language - so much more to it than you imagined, eh?
Maestro4k: "If the accused pirate has half a brain"
given more crackdowns of this size each year for four years, and i could imagine that pirates would bother to step up their crypto to this level.
except for their 100 cd spindles of backups.
i wouldn't undervalue the evidence of external communications/transfers. (as mentioned down-thread) in the buccaneer operation, they setup a fast site, are immediately in with warez sites. also when they busted people they would just sit down at their computer and watch everyone chatting away. even if not enough to convict, it's enough to disrupt.
too bad in a way if piracy goes the way you describe and they are held up as a reason to continue the unconstitutional (5th amendment) forcing of passphrases from suspects.
If you need text styles to communicate then you don't have a message.
Whatever the reasons may be, there is no need for warez with GPL/Open/Free software.
You completely missed my point.
I didn't say people using OSS software needed warez. My point was that Slashdot loves to bitch whenever anybody even remotely violates the copyright of the GPL.
But post an article about "warez" or MP3s, and suddenly the entire discussion is rife with baseless justifications, left-field worldviews, and even people criticizing the government for cracking down on copyright violators. Suddenly, copyright violation is okay when it's against someone else.
I just pointed out the double-standard at play in the majority here. I didn't suggest all people who support OSS are copyright violators. What I suggested is that the majority here who cry out over GPL violations seem to quiet down when someone else's copyright gets violated. If that doesn't apply to you, then disregard!
Since you mention it, though it wasn't my point to say that OSS supporters are warez/MP3 supporters, I will say that a lot of the mindsets here that support piracy stem from being used to the convenience of downloading whatever you want, then getting mad when the government tries to take away the free ride.
Difference there is:
1) Drugs can be a physical addiction. Warez sure isn't.
2) You can make an assload of money dealing drugs. I'm suspecting the warez market is somewhat inferior in bringing in cash.
3) There's no legal alternative to obtain many drugs, so no matter what the price, there will always be some buyers. On the other hand, if you try to charge $50 for a pirated copy of a $40 game, no one is buying it. Logically, this means there is a lower limit on what the market will bear, and thus, what costs/risks one will deal with to bring the product to market.
I admit I am not familiar with the details of this problem, so I may be wrong.
There's actually two separate approaches to DOSing a freenet-like system. One is to poison it with files that appear to be desirable, but are intentionally broken. The second is to simply overload it with worthless files that are both provided and requested by RIAA agents.
If someone wants to pump freenet full of space-wasting junk, there's little way to prevent that without breaking anonminity. And since freenet imposes such an overhead, the bandwidth costs for running the attack will be trivial compared with the burden placed on freenet node operators.
But can't be the "identity" of the file itself, eg. its SHA256 hash, used to authenticate it itself?
That just shifts the target. Now the FBI can pursue whoever is distributing those hashes. There must be a trusted, known-group to supply the hashes (or else they can be spoofed, and we're back to poisoning). But if he's trusted, then he's not really anonymous, and thus is vulnerable to arrest.
Maybe the way it could work is with public-key signing, so the trusted SHA256 distributor can't be spoofed by RIAA poisoners. The hashes themselves would have to go out over freenet, to protect him from detection via back-tracking. But I'm still not sure that the FBI couldn't gradually trace those messages back to the source (particularlly if they run their own instrumented freenet nodes)
The need could be the desire to help the Chinese.
Then again, I've never much understood the "Chinese dissident" justification for freenet. It's not as if freenet traffic is invisible; the ISP can easily recognize freenet, even if the contents can't be read. So I don't see why China wouldn't just arrest anyone running freenet on suspicion of insurrection. (Or for a more gentle approach, simply drop freenet-messages at the ISP)
(Yes, I know that many Chinese citizens connect to dial-up over international telephone, which means no government-controlled ISP can inspect their traffic. But if you're doing that, you don't need freenet too much- a simple encrypted http is enough)
Like "illegal copying" (one of the examples I specifically gave). Or "copyright violation." Heck, I'm even willing to stand by "immoral copying." Exactly how are those, "mild, indirect, or vague term[s]"? Does saying that I engage in illegal and immoral copying make me feel good? I'm not trying to say that copyright infringement is all good and happy. I'm trying to put forth a neutral term. The nature of copyright is something we should rationally discuss. There are many groups, primarily copyright based industries, that want to avoid rational discussion. Thus, they like words like piracy, they want people thinking this is a Copyright Is Good, Everything Else Is Bad.
At which point in my post did I suggest that I was or wanted to be a pirate or a downloader? Where did I say that I should be free to download anything I want without repercussions? I didn't. I think we need a middle ground, that warez groups are wrong and industries seeking copyrights that last two lifespans are also wrong. Unfortunately the debate has turned into a "you're for law and copyright, or your a filthy pirate." If you advocate that perhaps the situation is more complex you get lumped in with the pirates. You did this yourself, you selected my post as representative of people "who still see nothing wrong with helping themselves to all the MP3s they can 'share.'" I wasn't arguing for that at all! I specifically said I believe copyright law is a good idea nd that enforcement should continue. Apparently simply for arguing that the language is being abused is grounds to convict me and others with similar viewpoints as pirates. This is exactly why we need to be more careful about the use of language. I'm arguing for such crazy ideas as accurate language, the language used in the laws in question. Many in copyright industries are actively attempting to confuse the issues and slander anyone who disagrees, even about small issues.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
Well said. The only CD i have bought in the last year was a Red Hot Chilli Peppers cd for my girlfriend, simply because she liked it so much and was pandering all over it whenever we passed a CD store. Yes i could have downloaded all the songs and burnt it to cd for her, but i figured time & effort wise it was a worthwhile purchase.
I despise the one hit wonder that you have mentioned. Fair enough there's the occasional discovery of a singer or a band who have a whole vestige of *good* songs up their sleeves due to sleepless nights writing writing writing away. But the number of cranked out preformed, pre-fabricated pre-moulded rubberised texturised artists out there of the likes of those on the vomit inducing "god-knows-where idol" (or for those of you in Australia like myself, "pop stars") singers that wouldn't know a guitar fret from a fondeau set.
Oh yeah where was i? oh yes, i hate what the record industry is, it is amazing that they haven't undermined themselves much more thoroughly than they already have.
For example 0-day warez, blah, if i cant find it bootleg, the chances of me sloshing out $399USD for something is so close to fuck all it isn't even worthwhile discussing.
Same goes for music, except for the fact pre-mp3's i used to have a couple hundred tapes sitting next to my tape deck simply so i could tape and then later play some good songs, songs that i had almost zero intention of buying in the first place. If i like an album and i *KNOW* i like 80%+ of the songs on it, or if my parents get wind of i like a certain artist, *that* is when i lash out and buy/get lucky enough to be given a cd.
Thanks for your attention, you've been a lovely audience (end rant)
Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know when your gonna get food poisoning.
Amen!
You know another thing that gets me is the length of the sentences they are giving some of these "pirates"????? Ok I can easily see that downloading copies of software, movies, songs etc.. that you don't already own is piracy and that it is illegal. I have no problem understading that it is illegal or why it is illegal. However giving some poor computer geek 3 years in "prison" for it is insane! Punishment should be along the lines of: Temporary banishment from the internet, confiscation and sale of PC equipment to cover costs. The fine should be a set amount, say 5k, you should then have to pay "the full retail" amount for each piece of illegally copyrighted material that you have. There should be "no jail time" for cyber-piracy. I mean come on, is throwing a computer geek in with a bunch of sex crazed blood thirsty murderers and rapists really justice?
Jay Dale "If you're not living on the edge then you're taking up too much space!"
What if your boss gave you your paycheck on friday, and gave a copy to a homeless person on the corner. Does that make your paycheck worth less?
Maybe it does, in some grand economic supply & demand sense.
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." --Kurt Vonnegut
Yup, Oasis sure sucks ass.
Since your boss paid for 100% of your labor he's free to do what he wants with the results.
When pay $10 for a song or $20 for a DVD or $40 to $4000 for Software YOU are not paying even %0.0001% of the labor.
I found most of your post interesting, but flawed in one simple way: you seem unwilling to admit that the creators of works have rights to control its distribution. As a software developer, who has contributed to GPLed projects and proprietary products, I find this position unacceptable.
In the case of GPL'ed projects, I *chose* to freely distribute patches without "compensation" per se. For proprietary products, I *chose* to work on them because I would be compensated. Copyright law exists in order to allow the provisions of the GPL to have teeth, as well as the rights of creators of content to not be unfairly exploited. In the absence of copyright law, there is little motivation to acheive great software projects, great musical works, or great cinematic works. This is due to the fact that without legal control over the distribution, there is no reason for anyone to pay you anything for any work you do to create said work, nor for them to respect the terms of distribution (eg: the GPL).
In the market you seem to envision, where there is no copyright, creators of non-physical products cannot be paid for the products themselves. There is no motivation to create quality products, as the only way to make money is to support crappy free products (that are crappy by design, because if they worked, there would be no need for support). What you tacitly support is a service economy based on never giving people what they want: stuff that just works. I doubt that you really feel that way, and must not have thought this through to a reasonable conclusion that doesn't involve Utopia.
What you failed to address, and actively at that as those points were excised from the quoting, is that people worked on those projects. Products (music, software, movies) are sold because they were created to make money. So, receiving these goods against the terms of their distribution is, essentially, theft. It may not technically be theft, but that is a semantic quibble that is pointless. If you copy something against the terms of its distribution, have you received something that you were supposed to have paid for? YES. Did you pay for it? NO. You broke the barter because it is excessively easy not to get caught. This barter is the legal barter that the government made with the content creator that they will be afforded a protection from this kind of action in order to encourage the production of artistic, scientific, useful works. In any actual economic system that involves the exchange of goods and valuables, there must be rules by which economic exchange can take place, otherwise anarchy rules, and everyone exists in a constant prisoner's dilemma, or you are in a harmonic socialism. I'll pass on the argument about that.
So, yes, people can use iTunes. Most don't use iTunes or similar services. Not because they are scared of the mild DRM (iTunes is very lax in that respect), but because they are unwilling to pay $1 for something they can get for free. It doesn't matter how cheap it is, as long as I can receive the same quality for free.
Now. I do not agree with the direction of the extension of copyright law. I do not believe in harsher penalties than those for mere theft in the case of individual infrigement. I do believe in the government vigorously enforcing the law.
You also actively avoided the point of "being provided entertainment/products for free is not a basic, inalienable right" in your moral arguments. In order for your arguments to hold, this bridge must be crossed at some point, or else the argument does not hold water under scrutiny. This is because all these products were created under the contract that the creators would be compensated. In order to morally trump the law, you would have to argue that you have a human right that copyright violates (unreasonably long terms, perhaps - but not basic, limited copyright). I seriously doubt that anyone could successfully argue that. However, in the case of the battle for civil rights, basic, human rights were being denied from people, hence why civil disobedience was a morally justified action.
You arent preventing a thing. Keep giving into the delusion that your preventing piracy, keep sending people to jail for 5 years for selling there used cds on ebay and sharing music while the rapist goes free, while Bin Ladin's followers fly another plane into a building. We all know the corporate lieswe have been fed and they tell them well. Trade a life for a corporate dollar without remorse, we all know the ammounts of money they dontate to the government to fund our meaningless heroes the FBI so they can hunt down 12 yr old girls who share Britney Spears albums, maby the occational cracker who is replaced in seconds as your brilliant FBI team takes them down. (thx for ManHunt Razor911) This is a game of cat and mouse and we all know the cat will never catch all the mice, and we will ALWAYS get our cheese. Your Freedom is a Lie. Corporate whores.
http://nforce.nl/
Technically it's not a crime at all where this guy's from. It's terribly sad that you're so oblivious.
Is making an unauthorized copy of music or software theft? According to the law, it is.
Not in the US, no. It's a copyright violation, which is an entirely separate and distinct set of law from that covering theft.
Lawyers worth their salt know this, and only refer to it as theft because it's a heavier term and most people don't know any better (including a lot of judges and lawmakers who really ought to, by the way).
Quite right. I agreed with the Grandparent post, and was rather serious in what I said. What he said was smart, I didn't have any mod points, and even if I had mod points, I couldn't have marked it any higher, though it deserved it.
Jason Lotito