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The IT Labor Shortage
Carnage4Life writes "Dr. Dobbs Journal has a very insightful article on the shortage of IT professionals that is constantly being touted by the media and industry execs. It debunks this myth by discussing the results of the IT Workforce Data Project which indicate that there is anything but a shortage of IT professionals in industry today.
" Good points, talking about the oft-heard of preference for recent grads and such. What do you folks think? Is it hard to find a job?
No. It's because you're probably incompetent and rely on "paper-certifications" to justify your "skill."
Well, www.monster.com is a good place to start...
Heh. Poor Mrs. Applegate. :-)
(Troll? This is actually pretty damn funny.)
Oh, and sorry about the NT, man. I hope you like your job.
/. ;-)
getting paid 60k to point, click, and network, ain't so bad. Leaves lots 'o time for
True enough. I qualify as 'senior talent' but burned out a LONG TIME AGO on the long hours, ugly environment (silicon valley), corporate culture. It is inhuman.
I work about four hours a day now, live in the boonies, and spend a lot of time PLAYING.
It's easy to hire a good programmer. Programming is an art. Ask the job applicant to bring some of their code and talk to them about it. What could be simpler?
$120k is not alot of money in NYC. The reason you can't hire anyone is because you don't want to pay market rates. So quityerbitchin.
Dude, I went to your employer's homepage. Your job is nothing to brag about.
Finally ... The Rock has come back ..... to Slashdot. Seriously, that shows that you must be a good professional, as you aren't messing around watching wrestling on Monday and Thursday nights (instead of being like us who do, and know what jabroni refers to). It refers to someone who has no clue what's going on and just needs to get out of the way of those of us that do. Later.
Phoenix is the same way right now. I'm getting tons of calls right now.
of course he does, that's what a true troll should do. it should almost make you think, draw you in, make you reply. flamebait is blatantly derogative. trolling is better then that.
When thinking about those outrageous salaries, think about the area you are in. You did not say which part of New York you were in. From what I can tell witht he salrary conversion calculators, the cost of living in New York is high.
Fellow /.'ers may find it interesting that there seems to be a very similar problem in the EE field. A friend of mine who's a senior SW/HW engineer in SillyCon Valley tells me that his company hired a degreed engineer (either Masters or Ph.d, no less... I don't recall which) who insisted that a hardware design he created should work even when existing and well-known physical and electrical laws proved that it wouldn't.
;-)
His ego was so big that he kept insisting that the design should work even after having it proved flawed in front of his nose. I think the only reason said super-ego is still there is that he does good work -- once he gets around to doing it!
Anyway, back to my original point. An awful lot of employers and job-seekers seem to have forgotten a very important point where computers and electronics are concerned: Specifically, it's not enough that you know the software involved (if you really do). All the software knowledge in the world won't do you one iota of good if you don't have the first clue about how it interacts with the hardware.
The same thing applies to those who specialize too heavily in hardware. I've seen people who can hardware-troubleshoot like a wizard, but they can't write so much as a single line of BASIC or assembly code.
The only sure way to fit well into any IT, computer, tech, or EE job is to balance the two sub-fields. How else are you going to be able to tell if a problem is software or hardware-related, or even both?
For those pursuing careers in the EE field, I would also offer this advice. DON'T IGNORE ANALOG CIRCUITS! You might know all the Boolean algebra in the world, and you might be able to turn out five-variable Karnaugh maps and Johnson counters 'til the cows come home. But guess what? All that won't do you an ounce (larger than an iota, but still small) of good the first time someone tells you: "Ok. Take that signal, convert it to analog, and run it through an inverting Op-Amp circuit to buffer it and help smooth the output waveform to a true sine curve."
Keep the peace(es). At least an iota's worth.
I'm a skilled computer professional, and have been out of work in Calgary, Canada for nearly six months now. My problem appears not to be a lack of IT jobs, but a willingness of employers to pay a decent wage for my skill set; which are worth more than a beginning salary of $20,000us to $25,000us.
You then are a lucky minority!
As a programmer....whatever else you want me to be that involves computers.
:-(
:-).
I have been programming I even earned the title Programmer I.
I am learning a lot of things and computer science concepts. I have taken maybe Up to CalcIII at Ga Tech before I dropped. Nothing but core classes basically. Nothing Programming
Everyone seems to believe I am real smart. I actually have a very hard time learning some things.
I make what I consider excellent pay doing private contract work in VB. I *DO* Consider myself semi-skilled hgowever I realize my areas that are weak and I constnatly try to improve and learn new methods to write better software. I have been devouring, Programming Pearls, Code Complete, a couple of my Friends Data Structure books from class and just really getting into a lot of things like that.
Honestly the difference in the quality of software I was writing a year ago for My bosses compared to the software I write now for my own clients is *HUGE*. I can spot people who dont have a clue like me real easily. My motto is, I Know where to look.
Okay for another slightly related point, I have met many many people in a smallish community college whom said I am gonna be a programmer. I was 18 and Had a job programming at the time.
I ask why? Do you enjoy computers? Always the answer is good money good money. PEOPLE!! It takes a love for computers or a VERY smart person to become a well-trained programmer/IT dude. You *WILL* spend TIME learning. Nothing replaces practice and a decent foundation. And that is a problem because the signal/noise ratio for people who have a clue is staggering. Even people with degree's. I do not believe a degree in anyway really qualifies you as a better programmer than anyone else. Only experience and what you can actually do and how well you do it that is what makes you a programmer.
College at least general BS in Computer Science is just going to teach you where to look and methods for solving problems.
Nothing *NOTHING* replaces experience but more experience. I really believe that, this is limited on my experience but I have seen many agreeing opinons. Most people are not interested in anything but the 'money' and 'easy job's they think they are going to find out here.
I Have some bad news.. it takes a lot of hard work to become a truly well trained IT professional.
I am not there but I work hard on it every day and I realize that practice and experience and actually learning stuff all the time are the only way you will make it to the top.
Why oh why can they not tell new CS people this? Its like any other job but worse becuase You end up around people who dont have the slightest desire to use computers or program.
*sigh* It is just ANNOYING!! I have met some people it took over a year to train and they had a CIS Degree!!
It is just so dis heartning
I quit a job because I worked hard and I really was very good and capable of doing anything within our development environment. I had no degree and I was only 18 living at home.
SO they hire people with No clue making almost twice what I am who I AM TRAINING?!?!!?A degree means NOTHING if you do not use the damn thing.
It pisses me off and now I make a HELL of a lot more money working for myself. Thanks but no thanks.. ive had enough of a corporate work environment. I am content to wake up crawl to my computer and hack php and VB code in my undies.
Im ranting. *off*. Im also posting this anonymously since I been a little critical of previous employers and im not proof reading damnit!
Jeremy
Almost everyone complains about the quality of the professionals available today on the market. That's a clear sign people are attracted into these jobs by opportunities they represents even if their skills don't match or they are rushed to the market after a quick fast-path training or something similar.
I suppose it is even worse on the technical support side. In fact, I am sure it is worse in technical support if I look at what kind of technical support we are often getting from commercial huge companies for highly priced products...
In my department of 30 people we have 15 openings. Do we get the job done? Yes, because product deadlines have to be extended to include our shortage of people. Hard to get a job? No. Time consuming, yes. It is hard to sort through the plethora of recruiters and companies and buracratic rules to find one. But yes, I found one. It took me two months after I parted ways with my last employer. I had a job lined up a month before that happened. But the darn company entered SEC buyout negotiations and a hiring freeze was put in place that lasted until a few weeks ago, 6 months later. Getting a job was easy, getting interviews was easy, starting was hard. Anonymous, because who needs another database ID? Andy Robertson
I've sent out about 500 resumes since graduating. I've got my CNA, and will have my CNE as soon as I can finish my exams. I'm finding, however, that those don't mean a thing. All that counts is experience, but how does one get experience when they can't get a job? I've sent out about 500 resumes and have had one interview so far, in over two months. If there's a shortage, they're still very picky over us.
Actually, most of the students in my CS program had never really used computers before college and just wanted to get into the "big money" that computer jobs pay. Sure, there were about 10 students or so who knew what they were doing, but for the most part, everyone else was a newbie caught up in the high-tech job hype.
I believe that out of all the candidates that we interviewed one was from the US. We also had three interns, from Egypt, Korea, and a US citizen of Vietnamese ancestry. One of the interns will be joining us this summer after he finishes with his studies.
This year, I was looking for interns again. I sent the request out to most of the top 30 CS departments. Five of the people that sent resumes were from India, two from China and we can't hire them due to federal regulations, one from Turkey, and one from the US. It would also be instructive to check out the roster of graduate students in any of the top 30 CS departments. It will certainly explain the distribution of the resumes.
So, is there something wrong with the US education system? Or are US students all going to more glamorous occupations (law, medicine, etc)? What about the few engineeering students? Are they skipping graduate school to work in hot startups?
Well, an IT job in the banking industry might not sound a dream job to any of you with all kinds of 'elite skillz', but I just started a tech support job at a bank to get my foot in the door. After working as an office ASS-istant and ending up fixing everything that got hosed anyway, I applied for the first job in my department that opened up. And it's really pretty cool. We admin our own servers for our department, and in several months, we'll be converting every thing to Citrix metaframe.
The best part is, I work with only one other tech and a DB programmer, but they are VERY competent, and I've learned more that I ever could have sitting through courses at the local community college.
I might not make tons of money right now, (hey, this is the midwest), but I like my job, and when I get ready to move somewhere where there are tech jobs, I'll have a lot experience to back up my knowledge. So don't knock doing tech work for any particular industry, especially if you have little/no experience, but a strong interest and desire to learn.
The shortage is not in the availability of good IT engineers and programmers; but the problem is with good IT management. Too many managers don't know how to push a project. The shortage is in vision, not in labor.
Amen brother! Amen! I _love_ having people with 10 brand new certs on the resumes come in to interview, trying to demand top dollar, only to be told: 'Sorry, those certs don't mean anything here, do you have any ACTUAL experience?'
The good news is, we are training HR to be on the lookout for these 'piled higher and deeper' types, and to look more for those who have some interesting (possibly even playful) exploits documented on their resume. (10 node network at home with personal firewall to internet always gets my interest)
Not all employers will be as 'enlightened' but do you _really_ want to work for one that isn't? Hiring base on certifications is a promise you _will_ be working with people who you will want to hurt, very badly, on a regular and ongoing basis.
This is not to say that certifications are useless, far and away. Only to say that those who believe the certifications alone are a means to a steady job should find a way to get some real experience, before the HR departments of the world wise up!
Doesn't take much to get employed by envisionet, considering Maine doesn't have any IT professionals left. I got out and moved to Vancouver, BC, Canada (yes im an american citizen in Canada) making well over 8 times my previous salary in Maine. Walking into a large company (which envisionnet is not in the large scale of things) like MBNA and demanding a job will just get you thrown out. The trick is to be confident, not cocky.
I believe that there are many jobs out there but nobody is willing to help out the newcomers. Its hard to find a job without experience and even harder to find an internship. I am currently a freshman in college and would like to work somplace other than in a resturant again. Many people think since i am a freshman, i dont know anything. However i know more than some kids here that are seniors and it scares me sometimes to think what others of these kids are majoring in. I have met on MIS major on my floor who barely understands how to use Excel let alone administrate or something to that those ends. just my 2 cents Sean Kerrane skerrane@loyola.edu
Just keep rasing wages until the people come. I have jobs! I'll pay minimum wage to clean my house and mow my lawn. Must have degree in botany and chemistry. No takers? What? There must be a labor shortage!
These days, almost anybody can find a job in the IT, even if you are just able to start your PC. Why is that? Because the things that have to be done are very easy and don't require real skills! Look at a standard WEB application, what do you have to know? If you are using ASP/IIS, the only thing you have to know is some SQL, being able to do simple IF statements and sometimes a WHILE loop. That's all ... Ok, you have to dig into some books or docs to find out the API, but what the heck! Even a child can read. When I look at my company (and I've seen a lot of companies already ...) their are is 1 skilled person for every 10 non skilled. The skilled one ends up architecting the stuff, making prototypes and building the more difficult stuff. The 10 other just start glueing the stuff together... But this is what IT has become ...
Yes, corporations are, by design, radically undemocratic tyrannies. The dysfunction (and many other dysfunctions in present-day society) is a symptom of the diseases of economic hierarchy and domination / exploitation. Corporations follow Adam Smith's "Vile Maxim"... everything for the masters of mankind... nothing for anyone else. If you can help them achieve their goal of subverting more of humanity to sate their greed, they may toss you a crumb (until, of course, they don't need to).
I might add a quote from a woman at one of the contract agencies I've spoken to over the last year, here in Cedar Rapids: "Entry-level positions in the IT industry are incredibly scarce, around here." Telemarketing jobs, however, are everywhere. That's the real labour shortage, around here, anyway. And yes, the 'Computer/Technical' section of the paper is largely blank all week except for a few contracting and temporary agencies. During my brief stint working tech support for a nameless company (Hint: They make Cyber-Patrol), shortly before being laid off (for lack of work, along with 200 or so other people), I heard many stories from many talented and skilled people just like mine. Let's hear it for the New Economy.
Oh yes, I may "only" make 60K as a Linux SWE here in Las Vegas, but it's paying for my 4 bedroom home on 2 acres of land with plenty of spendin' cash left over for toys. What's that kind of home go for in SV? Sorry, even if I had a few million to spare, I sure wouldn't blow it all on SV property. I also enjoy light traffic, no parking crunch, shorter commutes, less stress, ... it ain't cash, but isn't that a factor to consider? Then I visit SJ and get "razzed" by gloaters saying how they make $90,000, yet they live in an apartment (?), spend 2-3 hours per day inside their car commuting. I've got no complaints.
EDS is truly the biggest joke in the IT industry. I still cannot comprehend why large companies pay them exorbitant amounts of money to document why the job isn't being done, instead of doing the job.
On the other hand, EDS contract jobs pay very well, and you don't have to do anything but document why you're not getting any real work done.
Wow, $120K a year in NYC! Wow, what a luxury... taking the bus every day, living in an apartment with a roommate, etc. What a joke, you can't live for shit on that in NYC. Ten years ago the corporation I was working for sent me to NYC (I was working in a midwestern city) and I got to meet some people working there who had the same job as me and thus the same pay. They had really bad looking suits, shared two-bedroom apartments with three or four people, were constantly whining about having to catch the right bus or subway or their commute would be awful, etc... and don't tell me about the great lifestyle, because when I mentioned I was seeing two Broadway plays while in town the typical response was along the lines of "I don't see that many in a year." I, on the other hand, had designer suits, a townhouse to myself, three cars (4 year old BMW, 3 year old Audi, and new RX7), no commute traffic ever, and could drive with friends to nearby large cities for ballgames, plays, etc.
Well, duh, for you leaving the country is an hours drive. BFD. How exactly is Rajeev supposed 'drive back to India' if the boss is shafting him? Stupid canuck.
I used to work at a place that hires lots of foreign imports, and it isn't so much the "cheap import" factor (it's actually not that cheap to bring them in), it's the "Can't quit or they'll lose their visa" and "Does everything we tell them to" factors.
This is in the Bay Area, BTW, and they've pretty much decided that they can't stay in business if they pay the market rate. Thus, it's foreigners and midwestern imports who aren't quite aware of the cost of living out here.
IEEE-USA/HARRIS POLL: U.S. PUBLIC OVERWHELMINGLY OPPOSED TO H-1B VISA EXPANSION WASHINGTON, September 16, 1998 -- More than four out of five Americans oppose substantially increasing H-1B visa limits, according to a survey released today by The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers - USA (IEEE-USA) and conducted by Louis Harris & Associates Inc. The U.S. House of Representatives will vote tomorrow on H.R. 3736, a bill that would raise by 190,000 the number of temporary foreign high-tech guest-workers allowed into the United States over the next four years. According to the IEEE-USA/Harris Poll, 82 percent of a national cross-section of 1,000 adults opposed Congress "allowing U.S. companies to sponsor 190,000 additional foreign technical workers, as temporary employees for up to six years." Only 16 percent were in favor, while 2 percent were unsure. Respondents, asked their level of agreement with several assertions made by proponents and opponents of H-1B expansion, overwhelmingly agreed with concerns expressed by H.R. 3736 opponents -- including IEEE-USA -- about the effects of substantially increasing visa levels. The statement, "lower wages paid to temporary foreign workers harm U.S. professional wages," was strongly or mostly agreed to by 75 percent of those polled, while only 23 percent disagreed. In addition, 77 percent versus 22 percent agreed that "allowing companies to hire additional temporary foreign professionals reduces employment opportunities for U.S. technical workers." And a whopping 86 percent -- with just 13 percent in disagreement -- concurred that "U.S. companies should train U.S. workers to perform jobs in some technical fields, even if it is faster and less expensive to fill the jobs with the foreign professionals." Respondents were not swayed by most of the proponents' assertions. A majority -- 66 percent versus 31 percent -- disagreed that "without adding additional temporary foreign workers the United States might be forced to transfer work overseas." Furthermore, 61 percent disagreed with the statement that "without adding additional temporary foreign workers U.S. companies might fall behind international competitors," while only 36 percent agreed. Only one argument -- that "there is a shortage of technical professionals in the United States" -- achieved a plurality of agreement, with 51 percent of respondents saying they "strongly agree" or "mostly agree" and 41 percent indicating they strongly or mostly disagree. The poll also revealed a broad public lack of awareness of H-1B legislation. Only 14 percent were "very familiar" or "somewhat familiar" with the pending bill, while 86 percent were "not very familiar" or "not at all familiar." According to IEEE-USA President John R. Reinert, "Special-interest groups have been trying to push this bill through using legions of lobbyists and big campaign contributions. But now it's clear that the American public is adamantly against a vast expansion of the high-tech guest-worker program. Members of Congress might want to keep this in mind as voters prepare to head to the polls in several short weeks." IEEE-USA promotes the careers and public-policy interests of the 220,000 U.S. members of The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers Inc., the world's largest technical professional society. NOTE TO JOURNALISTS: For survey charts and raw data or for an interview with IEEE-USA President John R. Reinert or President-Elect Paul J. Kostek, please contact Chris Currie at 202-785-0017, ext. 342, 301-887-1901 (h), or c.currie@ieee.org. The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc.--United States of America 1828 L Street, N.W., Suite 1202 Washington, DC 20036-5104 Phone: 202-785-0017, Fax: 202-785-0835.
you're full of shit and no one wants to work for you because you're full of shit. 10 days to find a job for an H1B? good fucking luck. I'm not in favor of allowing foreign workers in to the US at all, but you are full of shit if you think it's that easy for an H1B to find a job.
Yes, sometimes trolls are funny but that doesn't mean they're not trolls.
They will come. Supply=Demand.
Its been relatively easy to find both jobs I've held thus far. It's just a matter of getting the interview and making a good impression. If you have the skills they need and can display this to them during the interview, you're in. We are in demand.
Ken Dodd has CCTV cameras installed throughout the world. He is watching you and will sell the footage to make porn films. He is wathcing YOU !!!
Bet you wish you were one of us too.
I agree with you. My experience reads (from most recent to least):
Webmaster, Technician, KFC Cook, Labour, Technician (this company went under, so I lost my summer job), Labour.
On the other hand, I have friends who managed to get part time jobs with the system administration at university. Most of the time I recieved better marks than they and often spent hours explaining concepts to them, but who's gonna be hired first: them with 2 years system admin experience or me with KFC cook experience?
-Posted anonymously 'cause I still want to remain friends with the people in question..
The experience that one gets as a student is nice, but there's a great deal of difference between that and the experience one aquires on a real project. Too often, the things one codes for a class are "toy" projects, much simpler than real-world projects, and requiring far less analysis and design. Blow off internships if you like, but the 8 quarters I spent working as a poorly paid co-op employee did far more to develop my software development skills than any of my classes. (Truth be told, though, there's a synergistic effect: LEARNING(classes + internship) %gt;%gt; LEARNING(classes) + LEARNING(internship).)
...thats funny
I quit my job to get one at a company that payed me less but gave me the opportunity to play with some really expensive equipment. That was one of the smartest things i have ever done.
then i quit that job to go to university.
whatever happened to beeing in it to learn more stuff and for the fun?
will get you a job when you're under 40 (as I am) but I've helped out on the hiring side and seen age discrimination in action. I quit helping out on evaluations and no longer work at that company.
The only thing I have is a shortage of time. I'd say that there's a dwindling number of *interesting* IT jobs, but if you've got the skills finding a high paying mediumly-interesting job is easy. And if you just want interesting, then you can always start your own company!
I have 3 yrs of college, 6 years of unix experience 4 of it doing computer security. I am 24 and I just got a job for 70k a year starting. With 401k stock opts free lunch and free medical.
Screw all those jocks back in high school.
I am up for 80-85k at my next review.
Actually, this can be considered a mixed blessing. People are often lured by money and perks when considering leaving their current position and taking on new ones. It's one thing not to know SGML, but if a prospective employer can't understand how someone with SGML skills might be valuable in an XML environment, it's best to let that employer go! Who wants to work for dumb (ignorant) people.
On the other hand, let's admit that the SGML world was concerned primarily with documents, whereas the XML world is both data- and document-driven. However, the ability to write good DTD's is a skill that many in the XML world haven't mastered. It's also one that the SGML world didn't master well either. I love SGML, and I feel although I can write good XML applications, it's just not the same.
A lot of people are complaining that companies won't give them a raise and such, but here in Silicon Valley, quite the opposite is true. If you are indeed a competent worker, then your resume is going to have fresh projects listed frequently. The demand for qualified IT professionals is so high here that many get 20%+ raises per year just so the companies can keep their worthy employees and not lose them to someone else. If you're good, you'll get your pay. In fact, you'll get companies flocking to hire you. If you're someone who has to even -ask- for a raise, then you aren't one of those competent people. It is also very true that despite almost all job offerings requiring a BS/A minimum and 5+ years experience, they'll hire you with just a HS degree and 1 year experience if you're good. The test is in the interview. They'll find out if you're lying on your resume or if you actually learned anything in school. My partner has been offered jobs at Cisco, SGI, NASA, and others, yet has no college degree and only a few years of experience. Having a degree does not guarantee you a job -- only more pay.
MCSE as mentioned recently doesn't do the job. No certification does. Programming is as much an art as anything else which, imho, is being hacked away at by things like VB and components people just download of the 'net and hack together to get to work.
Why write my own work when I can stand on the shoulders of others to create my piss poor crap?
Uh, maybe to keep from reinventing the wheel?
Why is it that every time this kind of discussion comes up, everybody and their brother completely disses VB and other "component-based" RAD apps? Why is it that the mindset seems to be "all VB developers are losers who wouldn't know how to code their way out of a paper bag"?
Don't you EVER assume that!!! While I realize that there are many VB wannabe coders out their, there are also TONS of VB coders who know what they do, and do it well to create solid and intuitive apps (solid in the sense that the apps work, and rarely crash due to the app being coded poorly - most crash due to Winblows). I would tend to think that there are many incompetent coders on all platforms. A coder can be competent and skillful no matter what the platform - be it VB, C++, Java or Logo! Conversely, anyone can write spaghetti on any platform, as well - and then pass it on to the next poor shmuck who comes along...
I am a VB coder - a very skilled one. I have in the past written DLL's in Visual C when I needed that extra "Umph!" for my VB code - C++ doesn't scare me. I have tried Java (I like the language, but I don't like the licensing). I have coded in assembler (and liked it) - heck, I have even done hex based hand assembly in the distant past (on an Apple IIe via the monitor system)!!!
Am I saying VB is king? Do I like Microsoft? Hell no on both! But I like the concepts of a RAD environment - one shouldn't have to recode a quicksort every single damn time - do it once and forget it! If you don't like standing on the backs of giants, why the hell are you using any pre-existing languages at all? Why aren't you coding your own?
The point is, you can't make the generalizations you do - they are NOT true in all cases. So don't you dare say it like they are.
Wow, you can rip off Userfriendly... impressive.
You offer high salaries, true. You offer Silicon Valley size salaries, in middle-America where that's real money. But geeks aren't always motivated by money.
-E
I agree 10 days it pretty short. 90 days might be reasonable, but I'd say it's still too short.
I'm not in favor of allowing foreign workers in to the US at all
Why are you opposed to us importing intelegent people? I'd rather have most ofthe H1B's I know living here then those christian fucks who keep bombing abortion clinics and electing ass holes. (Added bonnus to H1B's, many are non-christian)
What an impressive accomplishment!
I guess this is what the earlier post was talking about when it mentioned incompetent IT professionals.
I'm a mainframe P/A myself (MVS, CICS, COBOL, etc.) with experience and I have been looking for a job for about 3 months now with no success. WTF is going on? I've replied to many job ads by employers and headhunters, posted my resume on all the sites, and still nothing. Just B.S. calls from clueless headhunters who don't read (or ignore) the info on my resume. Some headhunter calls sound legit, they supposedly send my resume to a named client, and then tell me they haven't recieved a response from the client after several days. I had 1 interview with an employer but they are "still reviewing the interviews." The employers whose sites I posted my resume on for specific jobs still have the same jobs listed after 2 months! They can't find qualified people? I doubt it. One former client says they were in a hiring and budgetary freeze after Y2K, but who knows. They make the requirements for many jobs too restrictive, i.e., "you won't be considered unless you have A" even though it's similar to B or you can pick it up 2 days. Maybe they are looking for recent grads whom they can lowball. At this point, I'm starting to become paranoid (have I been blacklisted, etc.) Can't figure out what's going on. Any ideas?
Well, there is a great deal of snobbery, and for a very good reason. Bankers own *everything*. They do. Who owns all the skyscrapers downtown? Banks. Who owns your house? The bank. Who owns your car? Banker. Who graciously allows you to borrow $200,000 for a house, and pay back $430,000 over 30 years? The bank. They decide who gets the money, and where it goes. They have Real Power, and they know it.
And besides, you turn me on. I want to have rampant sex with you right here in the middle of slashdot. Failing that, I'd like to have rampant sex with you in Cockroft 4. Yes! yes! yes! Do it to me baby!
Trolling for Tom Jones and Delilah. Don't forget, It's not Unuasual (to be a troll for anywon)
PS. yes! yes! YES! YES!!!
OK, I yield to that then. When I entered college in 88, the internet explosion hadn't happened yet. Most of the people in CS back then were there bacause they LIKED it. I remember playing with Mosaic in 92 when the web was still an academic project and everyone said gopher would revolutionize the net. Or downloading Linux 0.9 when it only ran on 3 exactly hardware configurations. Now schools are probably packed with the class of "Me too!" who won't know what they're supposed to do with their non-GUI unix shell account. If you don't think your career is *FUN*, you've picked the wrong career.
Sure, there were about 10 students or so who knew what they were doing, but for the most part, everyone else was a newbie caught up in the high-tech job hype.
I guess this would be a problem today. Although I found that when the lesson got to pointers in C, a surprisingly large amount of the freshman CS class was weeded out by that one concept. They just couldn't grasp and jumped to poly-sci or psych (which were synonyms for "undeclared" at my school).
OK - we'll have to go to Arts school room A after though cos there are more cameras there and I'm on commission. And also it reminds me of the orgies in Digital Electronics lectures. remember - Ken Dodd is watching you
I guess the situation is similar throughout the world to here in Australia. The corporate IT centers are concentrated on the Eastern Seaboard, primarily in Sydney.
Sydney's lifestyle doesn't appeal to everyone so there are a lot of highly skilled people working in dead end jobs in other cities.
Only when corporates wake up and decentralise will the job shortage be solved. How much are Oracle, Linux, Novell and NT skills worth where I live. Nothing. Sales and desktop support is all there is. Would I move? No way - I like it here.
In another year or so I will have to make the decision to move or change career. Most of my friends have already moved from technical to sales. The job shortage is a localised phenonomen.
That's wishful thinking, isn't it ? The third option, the low payed, degree-less-with out-10-years-of-experience would stay around, cause they are cheap. And lets face it, for the majority of fields which require IT people, you don't need experts. Even in some which do, as long as you can just manage, it's enough. The keyword is "deadline", so it has a few bugs, we'll fix it later. Although it has some nice aura around it, alot of this hi tech biz is just lots of black work. Just like in some factory. So, money talks, and cheap labor is the only way to go. Drik
>Fascinating... I'm an MCSE NT Professional pulling in about $75K/year.
Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert? No Thanks.
Unfortunately, history shows just the opposite. As new technologies emerge, the only criterion for being hired is whether you can do the job.
As the technology gets older, selection starts being more and more based on artificial criteria such as "what degrees or certifications do you have", "where is the degree from", "do you go to the right church and country club", "what's your family background".
This was the case with the film industry, auto industry, aircraft industry, etc.
Notice that in new technologies, you get disproportionate numbers of gays, Jews, blacks, women and these percentages go DOWN as the industry ages.
I just checked out your web page and its got a copy of your resume on file. It does say you were an assistant manager but enough to base that opinion on?? also, like the ray tracing..
Irrelevent. He was discussing general trends. The truth is a theoretical computer science degree dose help when it comes time to descide what can be done or to choose an efficent algorithm. If you were writing a search engin, for example, you would want people with a strong theory background. Actually, a good way to get these people is to use math majors and not computer science majors. Physics and engenering majors might work too, especially for general problem solving, but math majors are probable optimal for real theory related problems.
Now, experence is importent too (I have personal friends who are open source luminaries and collage drop outs), but this is diffrent from what the original poster was talking about (and none of the people I'm thinking of hold any certifications). This information is best gleaned from their past coding accomplesments, so I suspect that the original poster is correct that certifications are totally useless.
I have a theory that it's a class thing. It's hard to say what people are really thinking, but I bet they don't equate someone who enlisted right out of high school with "Ivy-league." In fact, where I grew up, a fairly wealthy, snotty area, a kid who went into the military instead of college was seen as some kind of fallen person. Tech school was almost unmentionable. Of course, this is really sick.
If you really think about it, a sysadmin on an aircraft carrier probably has a bigger, harder job than someone running amazon.com. And, I know a couple of De Vry graduates who are doing really, really well at jobs that would stymie my doctor/lawyer/engineer friends. And, they make more money than any of them.
So, next time you feel like making a snotty De Vry comment, think carrefully about what you're really saying. And, if a job candidate with military experience walks in your door, you'd be smart to not let him leave!
To me (and this will be different from employer to employer), "IT people" means "sysadmin/webmeister", and a programmer is someone who, well, "programs", and is generally not a sysadmin (although sysadmin tasks may enter into it). Programmers design/write code full-time, whereas an IT person does it part-time, if at all. The job tasks for each are different.
I work for a large, high-tech engineering company, and I can say that it is difficult for us to hire good programmers. Many people will list the languages du-jour on their resume, but they really won't know them.
That said, here are some of the things we look for in a programmer:
For example, we may ask an interviewee to design something, in rough terms, and we'll make the design specifications a bit ambiguous. We're looking to see if the interviewee can detect the ambiguities, and either make assumptions or ask for clarification. How the interviewee goes about solving the problem is usually more important than the proposed solution.
(Side observation: not surprisingly, people who like to solve puzzles seem to have a natural talent for this.)
(Also, knowing, for example, the O(n) of an algorithm is a plus, but not necessary, IMO.)
Where is the bug in the following code snippet?:
char *a, *b, *c;
a = "abc";
b = "def";
c = strcpy(a, b);
(I don't expect people to remember the definition of strcpy() -- that's what reference manuals are for.) Also, this question is relevant to C programmers only; you generally can't give this to C++ programmers.
Side note: generally, there's only one bug in the above snippet; however, in some cases (like when gcc is used), another problem can occur.
In general (and there are always exceptions), the sharp C programmers can answer this immediately. Good C programmers may take a moment, and "average" programmers may need some hints. This, and the other questions I'll ask, are designed to determine how much experience an interviewee has (in C programming, in this case). Generally, the more experience one has, the easier it is to answer the questions (read: you've made these mistakes before, and have encountered much pain in eradicating them).
"Oh yeah, this stratagy only works if you have the skills to back up step #3." And I guess correct spelling isn't one of those necessary skills?
They will be your best employees, though, probably a bit quirky. As an interviewer, I'd be far more interested in the guy wearing the aging black T-shirt and blue jeans, who's hacked up a way to control his house lights from his PSX console, or turn on his A/C at home via email when he leaves the office, than the drone in his clean shirt and tie waving his MSCE at me.
MABIE ITS ORANGE... I DUNNO I HVAE TO CHEKC IT!! KLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Absolutely.
I don't have a degree.
I'm not even a programmer, and I'm not (yet) knowledgeable enough with *ix to consider myself a "real" sysadmin...
But I have many years experience doing Mac & Wintel user & network support, and there is *always* a market for my skills - and it pays quite well. I'm continually getting calls & mail from recruiters - and none of them balk at my salary requirements.
Head hunters have no interest in finding companies good employees. Nor do they care about helping the employee or advancing his career. It's always like (to you) "why don't you you just fucking take *this* job so I can get some commission, asshole?" or (to the employer) "Look, here's a fucking warm body. Hire it, so I can get some commission". Of course, they never say it this way, but it's the way they think.
DOAS: After you take out the taxes on that $120K, you'll hava a lot less disposable income.
1. Look up 'net' in the dictionary. 2. Divide 120K by 12 months. 3. Compare that to $5750 per month.
I have an MCSE and lots of experience in NT and various unices. I tried for about 2 years to find a good position in Network Admin, Systems admin, or systems support but after a while I figured out that you will end up working 12-16 hour days at least 2-3 days a week. Plus you will have to work with really ANAL systems admins and retarded managers. I gave up that nightmare and headed to QA, now I work for a small company about to go IPO, making 55K + guaranteed bonuses equal to 10%..Plus 7000 shares of stock and about 2 months worth of PTO. The fact is if I was in support I would never see that pto.
You should be. You are a fucking idiot.
Wait for the next batch of younger non-unionized tech workers to put you on the burner in a few years. We all age. Some just richer than others.
Yes, New York is expensive, but a single person can live pretty well on $120,000 a year. Why own a car that you can't park anywhere, when you can grab a cab on any street, any time of the day or night? And Broadway shows? Maybe your friends just find them trite and predictible. I've lived here seven years and have seen one bw show, not because I can't afford it.
Lets do some numbers...
For a single person,
120K/year = about $5750/month net.
1 BR apartment in Manhattan costs about $2000/month, $2500 for a nice one with a gym, doorman, roof garden, etc.
That leaves about $3250/month disposable income.
$10/day on cabs (to and from work)
$10/day on nice lunches
$20/day on nice dinners
we still have $2050 each month for nice suits, etc. And we can take the 6 train to see the Yankees, not some chump midwestern team. Ha!
Nice try with your FUD, hayseed!
The logic is simple
The media keep promulgating the myth of the severe IT skills shortage. Colleges in the States are already producing more than enough graduates to fill the available jobs. So why the lies?
Simple. Money.
Once there is an oversupply of trained graduates for the available jobs then employers can drive down their costs by slashing the wages of their IT staff.
Economic really.
Take a deep breath brother.
All that deep seated anger isn't helping anyone.
Maybe if you would get laid once in a while, you would be a little more relaxed.
Ive seen a lot of criticism of US CS departments. Mostly it's whining about how recent grads don't have relevant skills (They tech in ADA for crisake!) This is just plain bullshit. If you waste all of your education learning the latest fads (JAVA, Web-based client-server programming, or whatever) you are just plain waisting your time! What is taught in universities will last a lifetime. Computer Science theory doesn't change no matter what OS/Language/Paradigm happens to be in fashion at the moment. And a good algorithm written in interpreted BASIC is still faster than a poor one written in C. I'll take a good CS grad with a strong understanding of CS theory and math over a monkey with 5 years experience coding by the seat of his/her pants any day.
You've got the most valuable commodity until your mid-20s-- time to learn something new and time to fix things older lazy people want fixed. Wait for the mortgages/wife/girlfriends/cars/kids to pile up on your head in the mornings. You might find yourself not thinking about what you used to.
yeah, i got an MBA in information management from a top 20 school. when i got there the head of the program told everybody that companies were lining up and even wanted to just hire the whole graduating IM class as a block. what a load of hype!
i looked for months and found nothing. most companies didnt even want to talk to me. and it's not just me but most of the class as well. you have to wade through all the recruiters' mine field of buzzwords and checklists. if you're not a cookie cutter copy of some idea they have you dont even make it to the first round.
You forgot something up there. Those of us who are 'IT Professionals' who provide tech support (especially phone support) MUST have good communication skills, as well as the technical know how.
9 times out of 10, you have to support some dumb twit who can't even figure out who to change the colors on his desktop. Even if you know everything about your system and its status and how it works, you are no good to the users you support if you can't explain things to them in a clear, simple manner without making them feel like an idiot.
I recently worked as a team leader for a group of programmers, and I found the "fresh grad" the easiest to deal with. He would fill out a full specification when requested, accepted criticism and was always willing to listen - whereas the "experienced" programmers had their own ideas about how things are done and would often take offense if you dared to criticise their work.
Never mind if we have been learning new things all these years, and creating quality code appropriate to the technology of the time - it's out-of-date and so are we (I've been in DP/IT/IS/whatever since 1972). Now we have risen to too high a level of pay/benefits/vacation time, and it's just too much risk for us, or for employers to consider a fresh start - take your pick.
BTW, I found the earlier thread of the pros and cons of college CS training vs. experience amusing, because I found the single most useful training for programming to be a little mini-course in logic in a college English class. It taught the essentials of if-then-else, and, or, not that all procedural languages explicitly require, and that non-procedural languages implicitly use (if this event happens, then that method is invoked...). After that, when I decided to get into programming, I could fall back on those fundamentals to determine how a program should achieve its goals - it's just a matter of learning the syntax and tricks of its use. I believe it was Eric Raymond in his "Cathedral and Bazaar" book, who observed that some of the best programmers he's known (and he's been around long enough to know a few - he's just talented enough to be able to do something besides program for a living ;-) have a background in music and/or chess. Go figure...
Anyway, shortsighted employers who don't realize us old dogs can and have been learning new tricks will continue to complain about a shortage. Now, let me unkink my arthritic back, and go get my Geritol...
That's all well and good as far as employers go, but in Australia, where you are essentially forced to go through agencies, it is a total pain in the ass. Most agencies/recruiters in my experience have absolutely no idea when it comes to experience and qualifications, something that has often made me resort to extending my resume to five pages long (listing modules of each qualification.) There is definately not a shortage of qualified IT people in Australia either, having spoken with recruiters (a few rare intelligent ones) I've been told there can be up to a few thousand *qualified* applicants for any one job. Apart from the idiotic recruiters, there are quite a few employers who have absolutely no idea and put forward incredible requirements for the most basic help-desk type jobs. Finally, I do not lie on my resume, which is probably half the reason I've been unemployed for the last two months, even though I am a quite well qualified and experienced IT professional.
My personal experience of getting a job in computing after graduating with a degree and having programmed for years before has been terrible. After many months unemployed, I gradually got a very low-paid job for a company doing websites who happened to need someone who knew about CGI scripts.
After that, I managed to get a more interesting, well-paid and technical job through a friend a few years later.
I know a lot of computer science graduates who have had to go into subjects like teaching, phone technical support or other non-technical jobs as they've been unable to find work in IT. Amusingly, one person I know did a degree in Physics and has gone into Internet development work because he couldn't get a job related to Physics!
Retard
Mr. Anonymous Coward
OK! Let's begin. Here's my dollar for some balls.
NS requires that you pay people with an H1B visa 20-50% more than you would a US citizen.
OK. "WANTED: Unix sysadmin. Must know Linux, NT3.51/4.0/5.0, Netware 4.0, SunOS, must work 40-60/hrs week and be on 24hr call at other times. Salary, $15,000/yr
The sound of crickets and a far away howling coyote.
Welp! No takers. Let's hire the H1B at 150%*15,000=22,500. Check off that requirement from the list Mable! Next!
there is no visa that under any circumstances is revoked immediately, ... In the worst case, you have 10 days to find another job. Oooo! 10 days! Riiiiight. Lessee, got fired Dec 23. Holidays, everyone on vacation, etc.... dang. Where did the days go? Even on a good week, c'mon! 10 days? Plus time to sumit paperwork and for the gov't to approve it all or even to approve an extension? The gov't? Act within 10 days? Pass the joint this way, man!
Meanwhile, all of the really talented people get a good job on the web, for the wages they want.
I recall an ad I saw once that really did say: "entry level position, 5 years experience required" - I had to laff.
That's JON Katz. Don't insult me!
-John
You're a troll because you think what you can do to controll people all over the place.
I've spent 5 out of the past 6 months testing crap, debugging crap, staring at the monitor dreaming of quitting. All in all I think I've gotten to enjoy only a week's solid "design" time and a couple weeks of code-code-code in C. The rest of the time is spent fighting the limitations inherent in our 8 year old architecture..
It was a year and a half ago that I was already at the point where I wouldn't look at a computer in off hours. When on 'vacation' around family and friends at the time it quickly became obvious to all around that the last thing I wanted to do was talk about anything computer related or take a look at anyone's computer problems(*)
Like you, I've been dreaming of what it would be like to go off and get a job that is 50 miles from the nearest little town, and doesn't involve being near anything electronic for 8 solid hours.
God, 10-15 years ago I never would have thought I would see such a day. I've been techied to death. ( Not to mention Sci-Fi'd to death... not that much of it is good quality :)
(*) Much to their chagrin... heh, heh, how often do people get unlimited free support from a person who, when on site in the Bay, costs $100-$150 US per hour (no of course I don't see that, there's a lot of support/dev/infrastructure that it goes to back at home base).
I'm an "indentured servant" myself (H1B) and here's my perspective:
- Repaying the fees if you leave. I actually had to do that in a case where I took an offer but (thankfully) changed my mind later. Cost was $2.5K or less, and even that was inflated (but I didn't want the hassle of arguing with the used-car-salesman HR person I had dealt with at that prospective employer). Typical flat fees immigration attorneys charge for H1Bs are under $2k, green card applications cost around $3-5k. Add govt. fees of 1-2k to these numbers (but ISTR there's case law that says the employer can't ask for the govt fees back unless there's been prior agreement on that. IANAL, check for yourselves if interested).
- Finding work elsewhere: In the worst case (Western states and HI falling under CA service center jurisdiction) it takes 2.5 months or so for a new H1B to get authorized. Friends in Boston got it done in 3 weeks recently.
- 6 year limit. That does bite, because around the time it expires people are typically in the middle of the green card (permanent residency) process. After the 6 year H1B limit expires you have to stay with your employer while the green card is processed (can take years), otherwise you have to leave the country for 1 year min before you can reenter as H1B. But even that ain't that bad (you can always work elsewhere for 1 year), and many people camp out in Canada for 1 year then come back if they still want to.
Finally, the biggest reason that people do get duped by their employers' HR (they let the HR do the dirty work) is simple lack of information. I can't begin to describe the misinformation I've had from our HR dept and their (incompetent/unsupervised) immigration attorney personnel (paralegals are typically given the dirty job here). But armed with good info it's almost a pleasure to see them squirm when I confront their BS with the facts (how procedures really work, the real processing times etc). This is especially important with green card processing.
So, yes, employers do want their slave labor, but the slaves are actually quite better off they are made to think they are, provided they have the skills and stay informed.
Who cares what "sendmail.cf/apache confs/etc" is? If I can get paid 6 figures without knowing that crap, I'm gonna get paid. You can play with the Linux admin crap jobs.
Just out of curiousity, did you get that sig from Cake?
Fascinating... I'm an MCSE NT Professional pulling in about $75K/year.
Are Unix admins really paid so low?
Oh, and the big red button is attached to the Halon system, you probably don't want to touch that if you like breathing.
Lie, lie and then lie some more.
Here in Peoria Illinois, there was just a special on the "IT Shortage" here in town. In the same paper's employment section there are ZERO computer jobs in the weekday edition. On Sundays there are a few more but I can count them on one hand. What a bunch of bullshit.
So what do you look for in "IT People"?
With out the IT, grit is nothing more than gr. That makes me angry, anyone what their colon punched? Thank you, Juan Epstein
I'm not holding any degrees and I think thats a good thing. I was in University for a couple years but opted out and did a year at a local college. After which I was MCSE credited. Mind you, I've been working with systems since C64 days.
I'm now employed and have been for a couple years. In that short time I have completed a couple certifications. Solaris was the first I nailed down. Then came a program at the university that my employers payed for.. Took me 1 month to complete a 2 year program. My origrinal university schooling transferred to it seamlessly.
I am also fluent in C++,VB,Perl,Java,JavaScript,VBscript and php. With the schooling and practical workplace usage to back them up.
What I'm trying to say is don't go judging people on pieces of paper. I know people that have way less paper than me and are brilliant. And people like myself with a little bit and lots of passion. Thats what employers should be looking for.
Finding jobs isn't hard. Getting noticed/hired is. I'm 18 y/o and dropped out of high-school, no college. No one would look at my resume because I had no degree and had no "real world" experience. It was practically a fight to even get an interview. Despite the difficulties, I now have what I would say is a good job (30,000+stock+bene) for someone my age.
A few months down the road I asked one of the people who interviewed me why they had bothered (I'm more of an apprentice than full developer) to hire me and he said "Motivation". Truth be told, going into the interview I had no idea what to expect and didn't think I could live up to their (or my own) expectations. I knew nothing about SQL other than what it stood for, and my VB/C/Access experience was almost entirely from playing with the programs until they did something.
So I guess you could say I was lucky I found a company that could recognize that it's not all about notarized dead trees. I think a lot of companies would benefit from hiring people who enjoy working with the technology but don't have much professional experience. It's certainly going to be cheaper than trying to snatch away someone who has the exp+degree and want's $200k.
Just my 11,685.00 TRL
along the lines of 'abusive families', there is a book entitled 'The Addictive Organization' by Anne Wilson Schaef that puts forth the hypothesis that the behaviors of companies are not unlike those found in families of alcolholics - denial is rampant, truth telling is punished, no one is willing to admit 'Dad is a drunk'. (and this is not limited to small companies - I have worked for HP for a number of years, and the amount of BS and lies we see at the employee level is just incredible...)
That is the dope stuff I be talkin bout, yo! OG'z smoke a fat blunt while them slaves be answering da tech support line wonderin if dey ass is next in line fo a layoff. Bitch please! I slap dat ass in line faster than you can type 'arch/i386/locore.S' with yo fake-ass busta-ass wanna be William Jolitz attitude. Westsiiiide!
I'd like to know how to get those headhunters to call me :)
Right now I work in Louisiana make $6/hr as an "IT professional"
I wouldn't mind moving to another state for a pay increase either.
Like many, I get frequent calls from headhunters. The suprising thing is how often they try to low-ball you on the rate. Frequently they are trying to pay you half the going rate. The places that don't have problems hiring/retaining employees are the ones who pay few dollars more than the place down the street does.
I've done a nation-wide job search more than once, and then once employeed, have participated in the "recruiting" process.
The biggest problem in my mind is that companies want to find the person with the exact skills they need so that they can be productive right away. They want buzzword compliance on the resume since that is the cheapest and fastest way to screen people. Ideally you'd spend lots of time talking to candidates to determine their background and ability to quickly learn. Unfortunately this takes a great deal of time(especially of your existing tech people) and money.
H1B companies don't pay medical benefits. To work in the US H1B holders must prove they have medical benefits so they don't become a burden on the tax payer. Thus, their employers require them to become Self-insured. H1B employees have to pay Social Security although they may not be around to collect. H1B employees don't get company retirement plans such as basic pension or 401K since the employees aren't expected to be around after 5 years (get green card). H1B employers constantly threaten H1B employees with firing if they don't work the hours, meet the ridiculous schedules where it would take 3-6 months with 5 employees instead of one. H1B employers (i.e. presidents) tend to be from that native country, their lawyers are from their too and specialize in INS rules, HR is from there too. These employers are US citizens now but recruit every spring in their native country and take advantage of their own countrymen. How do I know this, well, I worked for one as a US citizen (since birth). The only reason I got a job with them, is that it looked odd that everyone was from India and there were no other races or colors working for the company. Moreover, their customer required them to hire a more mixed group to get the contract! And even though I was a US citizen, I didn't get medical nor pension plans either - only the upper management. Alot of managers like this power over raw meat.
Eat freedom of speach. This is America, not China.
It's easily reproduceable. Why hasn't Microsoft done it? They probably have and came up with the same results. Bottom Line: Americans think the H1-B program sucks!
Monkey wanna cookie?
he does have a point tho.
Completely un-American.
Both of these articles missed an important point:
a lot of the people represented in the "growth" were not IT professionals before. Tons of English majors, HR folks, administrative assistants, etc, have become "IT Professionals," so while overall salary may have grown only 4-5%, that's because many companies have been poaching cheaper personnel from other departments and companies.
I'm an IT consultant and every company I've ever seen has an IT shortage of some kind. Unfortunately, they seem much more willing to hire less experienced people and spend money on training rather than to pay higher salaries.
The shortage is of specialized skilled proffesionals with experience. Company wants to spend $N.NN on the employee and get $M.MM, where $N.NN $M.MM. Key is two things where is the shortage actually and what other industries are suffering becuase the aparient shortage or surpluss. By the way, forien Countries have lots of people at excellent wages. Lastly is the fear of wasting money on training someone. Looks great at the interview but sucks when hired. Why? Corporate Culture, personallity, change in priorities, improper advertisement of the project, and many, many more. So, each that has a job do well, look while you have one and train your self into a new job. Regardless of the consequences of the job you are leaving. Be flexable in all things, even with a spouse and n kids.
So what were you looking for in response to your little VB question: use of "double"? Or something else? (Guess the lack of familiarity with VB is the cause of the confusion...)
cheers mate, guess we should sack the american working for our company then should we?
As an IT recruiter I have found that the brightest and most skilled individuals have gone through the rigorous testing to receive their ccDKe certification. These people almost always have a huge positive impact on the companies that employ them (mainly Fortune 50!).
erm, whats a "jabroni"?
ATTENTION: I have patented the pressing of the red button.
Any similar actions made without implicit permission from me & my company will subject you to my hoards of hungry lawyers!
It's only a crisis because employers must now pay a good salary to people without university degrees.
Any economist will tell you that negative unemplyment is bad for the economy. They use scary words like inflation and high interest rates to scare the population into agreeing with them.
The reality of the situation is that companies and their investors don't want to pay people well, as it cuts into their stash of Internet Play Money. The crisis is that there aren't enough dirt cheap labourers for companies to reap even more absurd profits from.
The crisis is that people are no longer expendable.
The crisis is that people can now choose who they will work for and not have to be obsequious toads to keep their jobs.
The crisis is that a potential employee may get a better offer.
The crisis is that US companies are losing their ability to compete, solely by virtue of their complete lack of a sustainable growth strategy.
Crisis my ass.
jabroni - A person of little social importance. "Know your role and shut your mouth jabroni!"
yes, a company i worked for in Boston, MA (ITG, Inc. -- please do NOT ever work for this evil company) does this actively. They hired me and got mad when i assked for raises, since their "sponsered" employees never had the balls to ask for more money, they were lucky to have a job so they could stay in the US!
I'm a unix system administrator in the Boston area, and there is indeed a shortage of qualified workers here, at least in some computer job areas. A couple of years ago, I heard the *average* salary for a unix sysadmin in this region was $70k/year. From what I've seen, only the minority of unix sysadmins have a CS degree, and almost none have certifications. Two years later, the situation has got to be much worse. Two years ago it wasn't a matter of "e-tailers" needing special resources, but regular old IT departments. The public's use of the Internet, and the resulting explosion of Internet startups, has greatly added to the problem. I was a college dropout (from a non-CS program) working in a university IT group for 5 years, and in that time we were fully staffed for less than 1 month. We mostly grew students into the positions, but were able to find about 1 person per year (half of those returning former employees) from outside. Part of the problem was that we paid salaries you'd expect for regular engineers, not the premium expected for the computer field. Since then, I was actively recruited for a startup, and am now wealthy beyond reason... not because I'm all that good at what I do, but because I'm competent, highly experienced (10+ years), and willing to work as a sysadmin (unlike most capable-programmer CS grads I know). (To think I was getting paid near minimum wage in other fields for years!) Allowing more foreign workers for hard-to-fill jobs like sysadmins and programmers would result in domestic corporations doing a better job, and domestic workers still being paid reasonably. Nations should be trying to attract the best programmers, not trying to keep them out.
It is alot harder to change employers if you are an H1B that if you are a US citizen. That's why business likes them.
Face it IT dudes, we're a bunch of overpaid wannabees. We're paid the stellar salaries to be slightly less-ignorant, and a little more competent, in a very narrow field, than the average Joe is.
None of us is "fully competent" in more than the narrowest slice of the IT pie. And just when you think you got it nailed, coded up some hot stuff, and got it to actually run for more than 24 hours without a crash, they release version 1.1 and you're back to readin' the friggin' manual again just to try to stay current.
All the hooey about the lack of "competent" IT workers and "I'm so good but the others suck" nonsense in the previous posts is just a smokescreen to cover the fact that none of us really knows more than a minor fraction of the number of angels dancin' in the head of the IT pin.
Our techno world has pushed our monkey brains to the limit of our 140+ IQ's. Your salary simply reflects the fact that the ratio of your confusion in a particular area is just slightly over one when compared to the guys paying it.
Easier to take advantage of is all thats to it.
Obtaining an MCSE is a notable accomplishment. I guarantee individuals, even with years of Windows experience, will not walk in and pass the tests without studying some exam objective oriented books. I support a Windows based product. I had the time to review the appropriate materials. If I had not taken time to test, it would have indicated that I am lazy and unmotivated. In addition, obtaining other industry certifications are also accomplishments. I currently possess a CNA and HPUX Sys Admin certs and I seeking Solaris 7 certs. If you want to talk programming skills, I can program in C/C++ and PERL, but have also worked in BASIC, PASCAL and assembly. I did more than "Hello World", including expanding Samba SWAT tool to manage other types of services used for desktop management. I used to be a nuclear reactor operator and electronics technician. I am very competent, and when I meet someone who is more competent, I go home and study my ass of until I can pass them by. So, get off the MCSE kick. People who have one are not automatically idiots.
Uhhhhhh, actually, I am forking $94,000 off my MCSE job. You are a FUCKING idiot. White trash.
That's because your office is in the SF area -- 90% of the bay area are foreigners. What did you expect? You'll find that ratio at -any- business here: Intel, Sun, SGI, .. even NASA Ames.
Seriously folks, if you were looking for "IT Staff" wouldn't you want people who knew the technology you were using inside and out, and have worked with it for a few years, or a fresh off the street CS/MIS Grad?
It would depend sharply on the sort of work I was hiring the person for. If I just wanted someone to put a pretty GUI interface on the front of a database that someone else designed, I'd look for someone with lots of experience with the specific technologies I wanted used, and wouldn't worry about their degrees. If I want someone to analyze requirements, then design the database from scratch, I'd look for someone with a CS degree and some database experience, and wouldn't worry a bit whether or not they had experience with the specific database engine I wanted to use. The second sort of person is far rarer, and far harder to recognize when you encounter him or her.
I'm 15 years old and i know that they're are lots of jobs now but i'm just afriad what will it be like in 10 years? Do you think it will be as good as it is now or so many parents will want their children to go into CS and IT that it will just become overcrowded. Do you think this is possible or i am just worring too much?
There is no such thing as a shortage of anything. In economic terms, supply = demand; always! Just because I want to pay a doctor 10 bucks for X-Raying (they still use those, right?) my sprained foot; doesn't mean there's a "shortage" of doctors. What it means is that I don't want to pay the market rate ... more like $400 ... for those services. This society needs more, better police, lawyers, doctors and teachers. Is there a labor shortage in these fields? No. The only "shortage" is people's willingness to pay for those services.
IMHO, its finding someone truly skilled in the IT field that's the problem.
*points to the mass of MSCE's next door*
Granted, some of them _are_ smart. But the majority of IT workers I enounter now would have a hard time telling sendmail.cf/apache confs/etc from thier arse. The whole 'I got my cert, Im cool now' attitude I see really bugs me since it devaluates the skilled workers out there.
Like grits? Who doesn't!
Good title for a magazine article?
I agree, it should really be called the "compentent IT shortage". You could say it was just that I didn't look in the right places or didn't study hard enough, but right here in Portland, Oregon I had fair amount of difficulty finding a position programming.
When I did get one in a small start-up, I found myself working with mostly incompetents. In the past year, we've chewed through three contractors who had resumes making them look ten times better than me, but lasted an average of two months after demonstrating that they couldn't so much as write a half-decent web page.
I'm not saying that I'm a guru or anything, but I didn't even know what "ASP" stood for before I started here, so I expected anyone who claims to have three years of web development experience to at least be able to teach me *something*.
</rant>
This rant was moderated up? There are so many half-truths and outright lies in the above, I don't know where to start, so I'll just pick a couple of the points. You said, "low pay." That is absolutely not true. INS requires that you pay people with an H1B visa 20-50% more than you would a US citizen. I know this, because I've had the INS threaten me twice, because I only paid a web designer from Belerus 25% more than I paid the other people on staff. INS does a very good job of protecting the rights of the people on an H1B. You also said, "If you quit, your visa is void, immediately." According to my attorney (who works near full-time handling immigration for BMW), there is no visa that under any circumstances is revoked immediately, other than for criminal activity. In the worst case, you have 10 days to find another job. I just had a graphics designer quit, and INS gave her until the end of August to find another job. In another case, a former employee of mine was granted an extention, because he "needed time to dispose of property." In other words, he had bought a new Porsche Boxter, and he told INS he needed to sell before he left the country (he is from Singapore, a right-hand drive country). INS gave him 90 days, and he found another job w/ an H1B visa in that time. Yeah, real tough.
Yo, sup, I be kickin tha UNIX style proppa for
over 10 years, dig! I get mad hoez. Next month
I be goin to Vegas to roll the dice wit my boss.
Sometimes we just kick it at the crib and crack
40's, true. A brutha with phat skillz ain't got
a worry. We jus' kick back and watch them fools
whine about they MCSE and they college while
we keep it real and live large.
(On topic: There be a lot of shorties in IT,
true.)
For the recent college grads searching for work: Completely ignore all "x years experience required" statements in the job descriptions. Always apply to everything that otherwise looks interesting, especially if it's for something new you want to learn and have never done before (what CS student ever encounters an AS/400?). You may find that the exp. filter has filtered out all other applicants and you're one of the few or the only one to apply for the job. If they call to interview you, you have no need to apologize for not meeting the exp. requirement. They already read your resume before they called you.
I recently moved from Nebraska to Tulsa, Oklahoma. I banked on it being easy to find a job in our industry (as a sysadmin in fact). I have about 6 years experience with AIX and 3 years experience with SUN/Solaris, and I run Linux at home (7 years), but didn't expect to find a Linux job. However, I have had NO luck (over 6 months) finding a job as a Unix admin or network admin (DNS, DHCP, assorted other). I'm finally working for an ISP because of my proficiency programming, scripting, and Linux admin ability. I'm having a very good time, but I'm being somewhat underpaid....which probably makes things even. I even bought a house in the NE Oklahoma area (before finding a job). Maybe I'm a fool ? Danny change at to @ to email :)
I've been out of work for over a year now. I have some experience with Java, doing application development, and Foxpro experience. I did a lot of work with C and Unix/Linux in college, but around here (Omaha, Nebraska) they want more experience, or they want mainframe people. I don't get the point of the local college teaching I went to teaching Unix and C, if it's not used much around here. And I'm also not willing to relocate. Makes me feel like I wasted my education.
Maybe the fact that you're giving such an outrageous salary requirement is part of the reason you're getting interview you don't want?
Perhaps the going salary for what you really want to do is out of line with your expectations.
I agree with what you say. In San Jose (silicon valley) I just give recruiters an outrageous salary requirement (2x my current) and they still manage to get me interviews that I don't want.
My favorite thing about HR requirements comes from about four years ago. One wanted someone with 3-5 years experience with linux (that's a pretty elite group) and another wanted at least 5 years experience with NT in a production environment! I still have the clips from my fishwrap around here somewhere.
_damnit_
_damnit_
It's my job to freeze you. -- Logan's Run
Uhh, he would fly back. Given the salaries most programmers make, this shouldn't prove to be a significant financial burden.
-Stu
The people doing the hiring are often looking for keywords, and often in things few people have cause it's new. Few HR people know how to match a resume to a job.
For instance a place looking for XML that turns down people with SGML(cause they don't know what it is), but hires HTML designers cause they thought XML came from HTML.
-Peace
Dave
Free as in "the Truth shall set you..."
im a high school graduate, i have CCNA, MCSE and i know several programming languages. BUT, i havent been able to find a job for over two months now. its either because i have no formal education or because there just arent any jobs. maybe its cus no one really likes me.
Global warming is good for you!
It seems that there are currently two types of IT professionals in the US at the moment. Those who are competent and those who are 'certified' by a commercial organisation.
I suggest that there should be an independant not for profit organisation which requires a certain level of academic qualification *and* experience to join. An example of this is the 'British Computer Society'.
There are several levels of membership from 'Associate' to 'Fellow' depending on experience and qualifications. It encourages experience, training and *professional standards*!
British Computer Society:
http://www.bcs.org.uk/
Deleted
It's easy to find headhunters. All you have to do is rot-13 encrypt a copy of your resume, print it out, crumple it up and toss it into a construction site just before they pour the foundation.
Within three or four hours, your Yahoo mail account will have hit its 10-megabite limit, chock full of emails from headhunters from as far away as Chechnya who haven't really read your resume yet, but are sure they have Just The Job For You!
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
I just got an offer from a company well above my current salary for doing basically the same work. Not to say I'm not worth it of course ;).
I think that if there isn't a shortage if IT folks there is at least a shortage of IT folks with good skills.
I'm seeing friends of mine ( sorry guys ) that are getting hired at outrageous salaries when they don't really have the skills to perform the job as well as it could be. And it isn't like they are overselling themselves they are being honest. Maybe companies are investing in talent and I have a horrible idea of what good salaries are.
I'm getting calls weekly from headhunters (I'm not sure how a-typical that is though) wanting me to leave my job for "A lot more money doing better things" ( at least that is the common phrase ).
Anyone else with similar observations?
======== In the future, everything will be artificial. ========
Hey I'm in boston...want to hook up? J/K but your right about the market here its fierce...the last offer I got was from a company I didn't even hear of until they called.
======== In the future, everything will be artificial. ========
I am not sure which IT industry they think folks are "possibly over the hill at 30 and certainly over the hill at 40". In my IT ship, I am the youngest software engineer at age 29 (just turned last week). Of the 30 software engineers that I work with, a total of 2 are under 30. The mean age is certainly above 40 years old.
The reason for this is that in my department, we never hire recent college grads. The main reason is that we want intelligent people with a lot of experience. I have the fewest years of experience at 5. Most folks I work with have 10-15 years experience in software engineering. Some "old timers" even have more than 15 years.
I left a start up full of recent college grads because I grew bored teaching the same concepts to new folks who would then bolt after 2 years to garner a higher salary. I went to my current job because of the wealth of knowledge, experience, and expertise of my colleagues.
We don't have to stay up all night to get our jobs completed because we: 1) Actually conduct analysis and design on our software before we build it and 2) know what the hell we're doing.
Chalk one up for the old timers...
--
"You're gonna need a bigger boat." - Chief Brody
The jobs are out there. The money is out there. All you need is a pulse and the willingness to move to Silicon Valley.
Weird, IIRC the last pencom survey I checked put NY Metro area as the highest-paying IT region.. Though many of those jobs are as shirt + tie bank/broker slave techs..
Beware the IT Pimps..
Your Working Boy,
This is a repost of sorts from a previous job related article. But it seemed to fit the purpose (altered as well to fit more into this one).
Seems that in Canada, employers are less likely to hire less experienced programmer / administrator / developer to fill a position. Also with the Y2K scare and the leap year scare many companies up here put a hiring freeze into effect (TransAlta being one I can recall) which is taking a long time letting down.
I have looked though a lot of Online job sites and receive job listings from the newspapers online. Which this I normally see the following criteria for what seems to be a junior position:
This brings up the question of applying to another city, province or country... Does this not make you look like a less promising Candidate? I mean you obviously cannot just show up for an interview (unless you can afford flying from Calgary to Toronto on a daily basis). This added to the simple fact that they would probably have to help you move seems to put any interview I have been interviewed with (over the phone) into a scare.
Of course, perhaps it's just me.
Are cabs in NYC a mere fraction of the cost of cabs most anywhere else or does everybody live 1 block away from their jobs?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
If you have time to go out and look you're obviously not spending enough time on learning computer stuff : )
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Maybe the moderation system should include things like "insightful troll" that gives a +1 and a -1 at the same time : )
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
While your experience is great, the reason we are looking for perl programmers is:
1. Our existing code is all in perl,
2. It works, works fast, and works well
3. So why fix what ain't broken?
We are doing some work with PHP, but that's experimental, and may never enter production. If it does, it will work alongside our existing perl code; in the real world, you use the tool that works best for your application.
And I AM NOT a personell dept. - I am the sysadmin for the company. We ask for specific skills because those are the skills we require - the same as any other job in the world. And it is not some HR person that interviews you here; the geeks that you will be working with do that.
The biggest requirement for work here is that you must have that hacker/tinkerers spirit, and must jell well with the other people you are working with. Unfortunately, there is no real way to express that in a resume. While I don't doubt you have the technical background to do the work, the arrogance you just spewed out would kill you in the real world. Where I work, we are all a bunch of really skilled geeks, but we are also good friends.
The job offer is serious; we are looking for perl programmers and a webmaster in an all Linux/OpenBSD environment. If you are interested, let's see a link to the resume.
(I will not post on this subject further, as it seems to be a poor forum to do this)
funny thing is that 2/3 of the "average" in some places, after factoring in cost of living, can actually be a 1/3 raise (well... maybe not quite, but you get the idea).
-
--bc
-----------------------------------------
the amazing bc
latin/funk flugelhorn & trumpet
webnaut, music junkie, sysadmin from hell
the amazing bc
just another guy doing IT
webnaut, music junkie, holes-in-head
well... my experience is this:
6 months ago, i was offered another job out of the blue from a headhunter who got my name from a friend. it was about an $18K increase over the amount that i was making with my current employer at the time. i worked, and still do, for a software company in the midwest. my company counter-offered me with a $20K raise, and office with a window, and a laptop, as well as a few other little perks, including a sizeable bonus.
i have no degree, i am 23 years old. i have played with these infernal machines since i was 11 years and learned unix when i was a freshman in high school. but i work hard. i work 55-80 hours a week. i can say that i feel appreciated. the company i work for is a good one.
my job consists of just every duty that an IT person could be asked to do: support/helpdesk, sysadmin nt/unix/novell, design and implement networks (including wiring buildings), install software for customers, data conversions, custom programming, and a plethora of other tasks. you might say i'm the perfectly rounded (no pun intended) IT guy.
finding a job around here takes about a month. i have several friends that have gone unemployed for 30-40 days, but landed a $40K+ job in spite of it. there are always tons of job offerings in the paper, but the pay is pretty weak. but, from our standpoint, it's difficult to find IT people who are good enough to pay them the big bucks and you don't have to put a lot of resources into training. it's kind of a double-edged sword. i think companies are willing to pay good people good money, but most HR departments don't know a good IT person from adam.
------------------------------------------
the amazing bc
latin/funk flugelhorn & trumpet
webnaut, music junkie, sysadmin from hell
the amazing bc
just another guy doing IT
webnaut, music junkie, holes-in-head
I've talked to people in a dozen corporations (my friends now, but it's a practical example) and almost all of them say that their department is adequately staffed. Only startups are having any problems aquiring IT professionals - and that's because by their nature they can't afford to pay for them.
It's called the laws of supply and demand - they're paying high costs so they want to increase supply to lower them. This is why Congress is being pressured into allowing immigrants with computer skills in - they're trying to decrease costs. There is no shortage. I repeat, there is no shortage.
>A college degree is no different. It doesn't >mean anything unless you can back it up with >some good sample code or a good answer to an >algorithm question in the interview.
Parsimony is all well and good, but do you mean that you throw out resumes that have any sort of ``education'' section? How about someone who just memorizes a bunch of code snippets based on what other interviewees have shared? Of course, social engineering of interviews NEVER happens and it's a good thing, too.
Personally, I'd take the poor interviewee with the degree (if it's a real degree like EE/CS/Math/Physics/ and so forth) over the swell interviewee with no degree, but YMMV, I reckon. Maybe you don't get that choice, what with the parsimony and such.
Free trade means services to, not just bars of soap.
Stuart Eichert
Stuart Eichert
There is an urgent shortage of beer. Even though my local supermarket has a lot of beer on the shelves, it is not the right kind of beer. Specifically, it is too expensive. In addition, I think you will agree that the beer you can buy cheaply stinks - it doesn't taste right, it doesn't get you drunk, and people insist on calling it "water".
I guess there are a number of issues...
1. You can never get enough of what you want. Good IT folk are hard to find - just like good plumbers, artists, football players.
2. It takes a while to sort the good ones from the bad ones - you wouldn't hire john elway based on a couple of interviews, you'd want to see him play.
3. The ones you can find tend to be expensive, hard to retain, and prone to poaching
4. Many companies see their staff as a resource to exploit; they are often unwilling to invest in training. Good IT folk don't grow on trees - they need to be trained, developed, coached, whatever.
5. Many employees see their employers as a short term gig, seek to extract the maximum value before leaving for a better job.
6. 4 and 5 become a recursive process with no exit clause.
7. it is probably difficult for geeks to move out of their chosen technical area of expertise, because being a geek implies a certain obsession with something - hardware, software, whatever. However, as you get older, have a higher salary expectation etc., you have to be able to offer your employer significant additional value to compete with a 21 year old fresh from college. If you can't keep your technical skills up to date, you can expect some pretty bad stuff to happen as you get older.
It's all very well in practice, but it will never work in theory.
One would imagine that in a situation where there was even anywhere near enough workers in a given field, there would not be half as many completely knowledgeless people running around with "certifications" and "experience".
That's the History Erasor Button!
I can see the fnords!
Sorry but companies don't retrain so when they don't need your skill set, its: "Geez I'm sorry but we're going to have to let you go..." And then the office manager escorts you to your desk with a box and waits while you put in all your sh*t before showing you to the door. (This I know from [bitter?] personal experience...)
The other side of the coin is that if you're employed by a company to do , you can expect to be bored sh*tless because you've been pegged as "the <x> person" and the rest of your life you're going to be "the <x> person." (Been there too...)
What's the answer? Like, I doan 'no' Eh?
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Using the basic concept of supply and demand:
Prices (also called salaries) for highly skilled tech workers are high.
When prices are high, quantity demanded is high.
Therefore we have a great demand for highly skilled workers.
We would have a shortage if demand would exceed the supply of highly skilled IT workers.
But the mechanism called market price will keep us from getting a shortage. This is the reason for high wages.
Only if wages would be too low, there would be a shortage.
Shortage is the wrong term. However, we definitely have a very high demand.
My resume was a bit out-dated. I was assistant mgr before working for Corel, then I returned as the full-time manager, which I did for almost 2 years.
And, the funny thing was that they actually made fun of me for knowing UNIX as well as I did at the time. Well, it's about a year and a half after I finished up my schooling, and out of 30-some people who started the class, only six of us got our degrees, and I, the UNIX geek, was the one with the highest GPA. Gee, I wonder why? :-)
That is an interesting view...
:-)
Yes the good IT people want to be paid a lot. But is it really a lot? Since our assistance is crucial to operations of the business, we can't be neglected.
Say you do 9mil/year in sales. A brilliant IT person suggests a few improvements to bring the sales to 13mil/year. Is he/she not worth the 6 figure compensation after this?
It is all relative, and I realized that after saving some company a lot of money. Yes, it does take a long time to find a new job when your minimum salary requirements are quite high.
Shortage of talented people? Well, I believe that's the unfortunate reality of planet Earth at this point of time in any industry
--
Leonid S. Knyshov
Network Administrator
Leonid S. Knyshov
Find me on Quora
Reason for poor phone tech support?
;-). Those who are competent enough, usually dislike answering same questions from newbies all day long. And they can't even tell people to read the manual (How rude! The dumb tech wants me to read this x00 pages book!!!) and have to read off it. Moreover, they have to use plain English explanations of rather advanced topics usually.
:-).
Just try to get a senior professional to answer phones 8 hours per day
I'd rather do something that requires more use of brain, so I get maybe 2 calls a month with some really arcane issues that are fun to solve
When I call for support, very rarely naturally, I bypass 1st line with a statement like "Hi, I have this cluster problem, would you transfer me to someone who knows this type of environment? Thank you!"
--
Leonid S. Knyshov
Network Administrator
Leonid S. Knyshov
Find me on Quora
IMHO
maths grads == great computer scientists
comp sci grads == great computer engineers
I'm comp sci. and was itching to get into industry for the last 2 of my 4 year course - it was all good stuff to learn but I wanted to build systems.
3. How much pay you are looking for.
I find this one to be the biggest factor.
There is a rule I read some where, that for a recent grad, or any person who is currently unemployed, it takes at least one month of searching for every $10,000 you wish to make.
For me it was also what type of environment I was willing to work in. I refused to apply to a certain company because I didn't want to wear a suit nor did I feel it was within the company's rights to do drug tests on employees. Not that it would have been a problem, I just don't like those kinds of invasions of privacy.
On the other hand the job I did end up in is the "data tech" for a small cable TV company I do everything from installing cable modems to network admin duties, to abuse@, to fibre optic based network design. I don't make as much as I might have in some other jobs, but the benefits I get are great and I can truely say I love my job. (just not getting up in the morning to get to it)
Web designers are all over the place. Why did you need to hire someone from Belarus? What kind of special skills did you need, that he managed to acquire in that former Soviet state? Or what out of the way town did you locate in just so you could go hiring people from outside the country?
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
You want efficient and Java at the same time? No wonder you aren't getting any resumes.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I'd like to see a web site that lists all these supposed sysadmin jobs.
Seriously, I find it hard to believe all this that recruiters are saying. I want so see some kind of evidence that these jobs really exist as opposed to recruiters merely collecting resumes.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
How many employers in Philly are paying programmers at least $200K?
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Secondarily, software engineering is unique in that it can be applied to so many different areas, where an chemical engineer, for example, will never work as a mechanical engineer, and even more -- a chemical engineer specializing in petrochemical refinement will probably never work in pharmaceuticals. But as an IT engineer, I might work with one or all of these other engineers in the course of my career, and gain enough experience to be useful to all of them.
So the competition isn't for bodies, it's for bodies with a wide enough range of skills to be applied to numerous projects.
Finally, The real difficulty is that with {programmer burnout, poor management, and the project completions} etc., the required skill sets change drastically over what might be a person's whole IT career. This makes it difficult hard for companies to retain people with a wide enough skill set to be useful on multiple projects, because once those skills are developed, the person is usually worth alot more than they are being paid in their present position.
All of which says to me, there's no shortage in the labor pool -- there's a shortage in the "stable expert" labor pool.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
Back in the '70s gas shortage my pappy said, "You watch, when gas hits $1.00 a gallon, there'll be plenty of gasoline." So, last week I got a call from a headhunter. We got on famously and discussed a gig for which I was quite thoroughly qualified. After she looked at my resume she said the company was looking for someone with 2 years experience, not 20. And they were willing to pay about half what I'm making. I laughed and told her to instruct them to camp out on Calvin College's doorstep. Maybe they'll find an entry level kid who'll work for that. "Shortage" articles are written to make sure a ready supply of exploitable younger workers enter the profession. There will always be a "shortage" of any sort of people willing to work at below market rates.
Has something happened in the past month or so? I most recently looked for a job in December.. after about a month, I found a job I was thrilled to do, and jumped at it.
All quiet for a month and a half.. then suddenly I'm getting 3-4 voice mails a -day- from recruiters. It's still continuing.. what's going on? My resume is hardly that stacked either.. It's not like I'm an MCSE or have -any- certifications.. couple years doing support, 1 year webmaster/sysadmin.. so there's plenty of people out there more desireable/more marketable than me, yet the recruiters are beating down my door. So if you're having trouble finding work, come to DC. Just don't drive. Our roads are filled enough as is.
I'm not going to leave where I am, even for more $. There's something to be said for a job where you actually don't mind going to work in the morning, and even sometimes enjoy it, and the people. Learning quite a few sysadmin skills at a small company that I likely wouldn't get the chance to learn somewhere larger.. things like this are worth more than $ in some cases. To me at least, YMMV.
Oh, and if you do come to DC, please stay to the right on the metro escalators if you aren't walking. Thanks.
BilldaCat
I'm young, and I've had a job doing assorted computer/tech work since before I was 18. I can remember a time, before I started doing this for a living, that I thoroughly enjoyed programming. I loved being able to pour my creativity into a small, yet satisfying hack in its own right. It was the first thing I did in the morning and the last thing at night (usually a couple of hours before the morning ;).
Then, I was an Operations guy in a data center for a school district with an old Burroughs system; it wasn't long before I started spending less time with my home systems. After a while I was promoted to a programmer, without a pay or title increase, and got to spend my nights writing Y2K fixes in Cobol, and looking for ways to make the old Unisys mainframe stop thinking it had a card reader attached to it (all the data for the "jobs" being run was hardcoded in the programs themselves, as a sort of legacy from a time when the card reader was replaced with a disk pack and nobody bothered to rethink the way the system should work).
Nowadays, I've got a new job as a Remedy developer, trying to build forms and systems using a tool that isn't suited to programmers. (If you've never done Remedy, don't do it. It can pay damn good, but as far as I care, it's simply not worth it. If it's in the job description, find a different job.)
I can't hardly stand to look at a computer anymore. I hate the damned things. I hate having to deal with a cranky NT workstation fitted to an old P200MMX system on a slow network with a slow server. I hate having to fight my development system every damned step of the way to get it to do what it should be able to do. What used to be art, for me, has become an exhausting chore. I've effectively had my hacking bits torn from my body. I'm tired of working for bosses that don't get it, companies that talk about "Business Process Mastering and Improvement" but yet never change the way they operate, I'm tired of the doublespeak, and if, one more time, I'm given three days to build what should take a week, I'm going to go postal.
Unless you can get into that sort of Employment Eldorado, a place with some think tank that pays you to be an artful hacker, it's simply not worth it anymore.
I'm ready to go get a job with the national park service, meanwhile...
IT shortage? Who cares? For me, that's kinda like somebody reporting that there's a shortage of acid rain in the world.
Well, it's not just HR. For the most part (obviously, there are exceptions; I'm making a generalization based on my experience so far), companies aren't designed to work with your Real Programmer. A Real Programmer tends to be a loner, someone who should be handed the project that nobody else can figure and left alone to get it done, and not dragged off to team-building exercises.
The Real Programmer will clash with management, because the Programmer simply can't be managed, and the managers (for the most part), don't realize it.
The Real Programmer will also want to run around the company and fix everything that they see to be broken; companies don't like that. They like to get their business running in a particular fashion, and then just keep throwing resources at it, even after that particular business method has become a crawling dinosaur.
Companies want code grinders and code monkeys, and the occasional pseudo-geek to act as the team's glue. They don't want the Real Programmers, because the Real Programmers won't fit in, and if the Real Programmers are smart, they'll avoid the companies.
You'd like Steve McConnell's book on this, "after the gold rush". Get it from a library since it's a read once thing.
:)
Dave
I write a blog now, you should be afraid.
That being said. . . I currently am teaching a class of 15 students, all government employees, all being retrained into NT Network Engineers (the host agency runs a mixed Solaris-NT environment. . .) I'm teaching them what it takes to pass several of the MCSE exams. But I'm also reminding them that not every problem requires a Microsoft solution, and more often than not the complicated method they've practiced to do it the M$ way is not the way it's currently done, and in reality, you follow ($foo) instead.
Even so, only about 10 of the 15 have what it takes to be decent network engineers of any sort, much less the much-ranted-about MCSEs. . . Heck, I've used my MCP status in the past to say to customers: yes, you COULD do it with a Microsoft solution, but you could do it another way, instead, with lower cost and better stability. And was believed, because I ***WAS*** Microsoft Certified. . . .
Bottom line: MCSE on a resume means you passed a battery of tests. So does the B.A. on my wall. When evaluating a resume, the thing to look for is whether the candidate has a decent quantity of cluons, or if they're spouting large amounts of bogons. Interview the former, roundfile the latter....
I believe that it simply requires:<BR>
1. A letter of employment provided by the employer<BR>
2. the employee to return to Canada and recross the border (with the letter) once per year.<P>
Can anyone provide additional information?
I by no means am disregarding CS/MIS Majors, however I do know for a fact that a significant number of CS/MIS Programs don't teach the latest technology, and have a difficult time keeping up with all the changes.
Yes, I agree, partly... I'm a CS student (two years left) and the stuff we are taught is supposed to be a basis, so we can learn any technology easily. It's no point really in teaching the latest technologies since by the time we're out and working it's most likely old technologies. I try to be updated with as much technologies as possible, but I know lots of people at the university that don't care and only knows what we're taught.
That's funny, I know lots of people who make more than 60k.....
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
If there is an IT job shortage, why am I still getting paid shit?
Speak truth to power.
After nine months at my first position I was laid off (for lack of work). I found another job within a month. My most recent job change took a lot longer, but I wasn't desperate--I was looking for a Linux-related job in a very small radius all the way across the country. It took me less than 6 months to find it.
However, I've also been on the other side. I've interviewed a lot of "candidates" (I use the term loosely) who knew diddly-squat about programming. I had one guy answer the question "What interests you about computer programming?" with "I just follow the money." That interview ended quickly.
But even worse were the people who had taken "All About Visual Basic" at DeVry and thought that qualified them for more than a data-entry position. I handed them a programming test that asked them to implement a "large number multiplication function" in VB. I specifically said that the numbers could be of "arbitrarily large size". I still got bozos trying to use the VB "Long" (or even "Variant") type. *heavy sigh*
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
If you went to the job fair at the dane county coliseum you would have been able to talk to many potential employers for when you graduate. Also, from what I heard, there weren't many jobs for MCSE's. Most wanted UNIX type Admins... many looking for UW grads. So don't worry. If you're going to stay around here you shouldn't have any problems finding a decent job.
There really is a shortage of progrmmers, with the particular tool set of experience that HR likes to flog as being the only kind of people to hire. If your resume does not match exactly the particular tool set that they are looking for, then you are out the door.
There are currently two kinds of programmers:
One is a "Tool Set programmer" (notice the lower case). This person only knows how to program in one tool set and has no clue as to what the machine itself is doing underneath. A lot of recent graduates fall into that category. They reimplement the C Standard Library in C++ since they never bothered to learn C when learning the Tool Set. Probably limited to MSVC as well. These are greatly loved by HR.
The other kind of the programmer is the Real Programmer (notice the case). Talks to the machine in whatever language is needed (about a week or so to learn a new language, maybe a week more for OOP based language), knows what's going on inside the machine and has solved some really nasty problems in their time. It takes time to raise a Real Programmer, they are an eccentric and highly volatile quantity and just don't fit the mold that HR departments tries to put on everyone. They are worth their weight in gold, but first they have to get past HR.
What we have is a shortage of Real Programmers. The Tool Set programmer just does not have the background to solve the problems thrown at him.
...Alpha
You are right dead on with the want ads. I'm currently looking for a job and have probably ruled myself out of applying to many because of requirements that after I really look at them are totally insane. One of these days I'm just gonna start calling these people up and call them on it.
Tech Support and Help desk are not likely to improve unless employers recognize the importance of those positions. I have seen several listings around St. Louis by companies looking for help desk and/or tech support help, and wanting to pay $6-$8 per hour. Hmm...starting salary at friggin *Taco Bell* is $6+, more if you're not a dumbass. I know St. Louis is not the valley , but it is a major metro area, and with the current economy, you're lucky to find a warm body with 42 chromosomes for $6 an hour. *That's* why staffing involves pulse and being able to say 'computer'. Anyone with even half a brain will find an MCSE program or something similar & come out far ahead. Which takes us back to underqualified uppper positions - hmm, I'm starting to ramble.
I agree wholeheartedly with your perspective. I also would be placed in the naive category as someone who thought originally that people do what they enjoy and aren't chancing after $s. I have been interested in computers since I laid my hands on an Apple IIc in elementary school in the mid-80's.
Anyway, a classmate of mine and myself have looked at two trends in utter disgust: 1) our classmates are in it for the money, 2) finding a good company with solid ethics is getting harder. We simply want to work for a living, make decent money, doing a decent days work (maybe a bit more than that). Right now the only alternative seems to be start a business ourselves, build it on the foundations that others have mentioned previously and hope that the 10% of the graduating population like us will seek us out and join in our efforts.
It is a shame as a college Junior having to say to myself "don't become bitter [about the way things are in the job market]."
Anything else I would add would be redundant.
Kudos to Slashdot for making this discussion possible and to all those who have added to it.
well, I can't seem to get to Dobbs right now. However, there seems to be an eternal ambiguity about exactly what an "IT worker" is. Some sort of distinction should be made between programmers and architects that need a 4 year (or more) degree, admins (that need a 2 year degree), and operators (that can get by with a few months of training).
No, this is not EDS. True, there is dress code - you have to wear clothes, when there are customers around :-). Everyone has their own office (a real office with a real door), half the conference rooms and the commons have fire places... The technology is new and interesting - large client-server systems, web-based applications, right now I am using the Xerces XML processor from Apache to implement prototype data interchange connection...
No pay-back of training costs either - you only need to give a week's notice, or two weeks if you work directly with a customer.
And still, there is shortage of competent people...
Employees on H1B visas have harder time changing jobs, but not much harder than others. How much harder is to wait for 2 months to change jobs, compared to a person, who has for example a house, and needs to sell it.
Also, there is never a requirement for payback. If anyone has agreed to such a requirement, then they deserve the "indentured servitude" position. Even then, if they are competent, they will probably find a different employer who will sponsor them for the H1B transfer, and will cover the payback.
The real problem is not the H1B visas - it's the slow employment based immigration process. Once that process has started, then the foreign national practically cannot leave the company, which is sponsoring him, and they cannot receive significant raises, or be promotted, if that would change the nature of the job.
2. Maybe it does not apply everywhere, but somewhere not only the payment is less for foreign
workers. The employer also has to pay some social security, etc. for local workforce, and with a well-written contract it can be legally evaded for foreigners.
This is illegal for H1Bs or permanent residents.
As to the argument that the foreign worker is paid more - maybe that is true in some cases but the general case does not bear that out ... take a look at the hardcopy ComputerWorld and look at the careers section - look away from the flashy ads touting all of the big pimps and look at the hordes of little print lines asking for Masters degree, experience, all for 25K a year! Those are there to meet the requirement that the "job cannot be filled by an American".
These ads cannot meet the requirement for issuing an H1B or an employment based green card. The "prevailing wage" is determined by the states, where the job is in, and the recruitment process is checked both at the state and the federal level (it takes currently 6 months to 3 years to complete such a check for employment based green card). If you believe that these ads are used for meeting the Labor Department requirement for employment based visas, you should write to your representative or senator and request an investigation. You will be surprised how well they respond sometimes, especially in an election year!
Since when is misinformation considered "insightful"? Did you even read the responses to this BS?
Finding a job where I am is easy, there are many open. I get calls every few weeks from headhunters or recruiters. I am happy where I am at and don't want to jump ship so I usually blow them off.
I think area is the big factor, some places have more opportunity then others. I doubt that there are alot of jobs for what I do (systems administration) in some little town in the middle of Nebraksa with a pop of 1000. But in an area like S. California there are many jobs.
Man, I am posting alot today. Must be making up for not posting much or something heh.
this space for rent
Simple answer - because of who I will be living with there.
Ken
But - in the time I have been a contractor, there has less than 3 weeks where I have not been in a contract. I am three months into a 12 month contract - back at a place where I was several years ago. The secret - do a bloody good job, have the skills that people want and know how to write good English (as well as C / Perl / whatever).
But - the things I have noticed here is the "snobbery" between various industry sectors. Banking has always viewed itself as the elite sector - and you cannot get an IT job in banking unless you are already in banking. This has been so for as long as I have been working. But this is now extending to other areas - particularly Telcos / Internet companies. I came very close to getting a role as an applications development manager for one of the biggies in the Internet industry (clue: they are owned by MCI). But - because I had not had Telco experience, they decided no to get with me.
Meanwhile in my current position, I am developing new e-commerce strategies, managing the overhaul of the complete applications development strategy, ya da ya da. UUNet's loss, not mine.
There is a shortage of good, experienced IT people - who can relate to an organisation's business needs.
Ken
<BLATANT JOB AD>
As a postscript - I am wanting to move to the US - Dallas in particular. Anyone who has a job going for a highly experienced apps dev manager, IT strategist, consultant . . email me at
rayk@transport.nsw.gov.au or
landkray@zeta.org.au
</BLATANT JOB AD>
I finished my schooling 3 months ago. It's been 3 months of solid job searching for me. Guess what - I'm still unemployed. I have experience, both from volunteer work and employment, in the areas I'm looking for work in. I have all the classes for my 3 year degree in Computing Science and I graduate in May. I had good marks, but not exceptional. I'd prefer work in my area of the world (Edmonton, Canada), but I'm not picky and have been applying all over. But I'm getting rejected by people like McDonalds & Wendy's.
I put out about 5-10 resumes a day. My resume's been on Dice for 2 months. (it got me one of my 2 interviews) I don't have the years of experience that everybody wants, so I'm unqualified for IT jobs. I'm finished my degree and I've worked as a technician and a webmaster, so I'm unqualified for other jobs.
-Dexx
Feel the fear and do it anyway.
Ooops, that 4th paragraph should say ...
Of course, if a company has the size and the cluefulness, they try to grow and train the team in such a way as to avoid "suddenly needing an expert" and being over a barrel since this will often cost $100+ per hour.
- bridgette
Shortage of people trying to be in IT fields? No.
Shortage of *talented* people in IT? Yes.
Not long ago I was a Teaching Assistant for a computer science class for computer science majors only. The class was full of people, but most of them were very much not adept nor interested in the material, but instead in the big bucks they keep hearing about. Sometime you'll try to tell people in the most informative way about the issues involved in a certain problem and point them in the right direction, but they will only give you blank looks and want to know exactly how to solve the particular problem at hand without thinking about it. There are talented ones, and there are the ones willing to try to think for themselves, but far too many just want the answers handed to them on a silver platter. Everytime I delt with studens like that I felt bad that computer science was just the pot of gold for so many people...
On another note, people keep talking about people not paying the right amount of money for IT people, but I want to know what *is* a good 'going rate' for starting salries.. I had a couple of offers and am now working with one company for an ok sum, but don't know how to compare it with the average. Anyone know statistics for various areas or know where I can find these statistics?
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I was righting this long thing.. and then figured, screw it. If you want to know about IIT, email me. I'm a freshman here, and so far I'm quite happy with my choice. I know how other colleges go at it (from friends/visits), etc. The only bad part I've found is in general for all CS, to many people go into it for $ (and rarely used a computer). The classes are damn good, but in ITP (intro to prof.) they asked for a lecture on how OS's work.. and I almost cried from disgust at how little people knew. They get weeded out first year, as they can't handle the simplist classes. And its far worse in other places, some like UCSC make you do psuedo code first semester, and basics of C second. In others I've seen/heard about, they're bent on getting you a good job, not the education. IIT's damn good.. so if you want to heard the whole rant...
"Open Source?" - Press any key to continue
It seems that it's easy to hire people with flavor-of-the-day skills and certifications -- and there are more than enough recruiters acting as certification factories these days -- but it seems almost impossible to find talented, experienced software professionals.
Most of the guys who are interviewed for jobs at the companies where I work (I'm a self-employeed consultant) fall into the "I just got my X certification," where X is some M$ cert. Their recruiters sell them as able, experienced pros: "This guy is sharp; he's even certified."
The sad thing is that most people hiring in the I/T sector don't know how to tell the wheat from the chaff. I'd say that about one-forth to one-third of the "able, experienced" pros that get hired are let go within two weeks because they can't cut it. A good portion of the remainder limps along, little better than deadwood. Sad, indeed.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
I'm self taught in linux (I hardly touched a computer until the summer of 1998) I took an administration course just to hone things up and put it on my resume, became A+ certified (which means jack) just to put it on my resume. I apply for 3 to 10 jobs a day and I have had only had one interview. Why? Because I was a truck driver for four years and have no IT work experience, ability I have though. I thought the 'new ' economy was supposed to lust after self taught ambitious people. I'll do your carpel-tunnel job for the same pay as my hernia-job. epseps@hotmail.com
See, the dumb fuck suits have no problem paying jizzloads of money for some self-styled consultant or retarded fucking MBAs with dollar signs in their eyes who can barely use their e-mail, but the attitude at a lot of big companies is that computer folks are trade school assholes who can be treated like children, so they won't pay real money. Usually, they get what they pay for. Unless you want to work for the financial sector, where you watch dumbfuck MBAs who have the following skills 1) know spreadsheets 2) can be colossal assholes make 10 jizzloads of cash. I recommend getting some real knowledge and experience, then become one of those self-styled consultants.
Well, enough ranting, I don't believe in classifications, qualifications, or experience that much. If you're depending on the knowledge someone already has, then you're dead meat and don't even know it yet. Some people are smart, and some ain't.
The one part where discussions about qualifications or academic background or experience make sense is hard-core programming. If you don't know why a quicksort is quick, you're going to have a hard time no matter what your so-called qualifications are. And the art of really good programming is about as far from a trade school experience or even a BS can get. It takes long-term dedication to get real depth.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
There are sooo many people in colleges nowaday that are in IT type career paths merely because they heard it makes money. IT requires a good deal of maintanance. These people party and don't spend any time on their studies.
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Any normal employee, that possesses the correct skills, knowledge and enthusiasm to do their job well, would see significant benefits to encourage them to get promoted.
For most employees, management leads to more interesting work and a much better salary.
But a skilled IT person will receive a good package without ever going beyond a team leaders roll.
Also, technically, their job will be most interesting at this level.
With IT having such a high profile in most boardrooms, IT managers receive an unusual amount of attention.
So anyone in IT, middle management, will find himself or herself in meetings all day, not perusing the things they were once enthused about.
While they learn man management skills they will loose touch with the detail of rapidly changing technology that allows them to tell a perfectly good idea like Java from a working solution to a real world problem.
For the skilled IT person, management doesn't look particularly attractive.
The unskilled IT person?
They probably have an interest in playing with technology but not with the nuts and bolts of how it works (And therefore what works!!!).
These managers are typified by their strategies based on the latest industry hype and selecting staff without a question more complex than how do you declare a variable!
As more unskilled people enter IT departments, so more move into management without competition, compounding the problem.
There is no shortage of people, who call themselves IT professionals, because they can find employment.
But how many of them have the skill level that you would expect from say, a junior medical doctor, who may earn less than IT professionals.
There is no shortage of IT professionals.
Just a shortage of people that understand computers!
Nonsense - there is no minimum or maximum for H1, the law states "at minimum market rate for the job".
Companies hire H1's because there aren't enough talented Americans to do the jobs. Companies sponsor green cards so they can keep those talented foreigners.
Find me an infinite supply of competent US citizens, I'll hire them. Seriously.
This is simply untrue bullshit. One of the legal requirements of an H1 is that you pay foreign workers at least as much as the rate for US residents; did AC ever hire an H1 worker and have to file an LCA? Does AC even know what an LCA is? Thought not.
H1's can be transferred for around $1500 in legal fees, chicken feed compared to today's hiring costs. If you are in the north east, it takes around 2.5 weeks end to end (Vermont centre). Here in Texas, 2.5 to 4 months, but worth it for someone good. No, if you're on an H1 you can't walk out on a Thursday at 2pm coz the boss pissed you off, but you sure as hell can find another job and get it transferred.
Do you really think companies would jump through the millions of hoops set out by the well-meaning, benighted INS if there were tons of competent developers flipping burgers? Is Orrin Hatch smoking crack? Why did my local congressman's policy exec spend an hour on the phone with me asking how the H1 process should be improved and what impact it was having on the local high tech economy?
We are hiring competent people of every race, creed nationality and whatever, H1's, TN-1's or not. Anyone who thinks this is easy can damn well get their butt down here and do some recruiting for me.
(And, if you want a job with a tier one venture funded startup in Austin TX, good salary, stock options, etc. etc. and can write efficient and scalable server-side Java, email me for my work address ASAP)
Well,
I've had about 5 people come to me (and I'm no one special) and asked me if I knew anyone to fill a tech possition (for sysadmin or programmer in most cases). All 5 times I've sent them a few of my old unexperianced students (back from when I used to teach networking classes 6 months ago) and all of them have wound up highering one of my students.
so, yes... here in ISRAEL (.il or the lame in mind), there is a big shortage.
Quick question: Why is the IT world, whatever IT means, any different than any other profession? Is it just me, or is there a shortage of qualified and hard-working anything? Qualified and smart lawyers, preachers, teachers, insert any profession here.
I see alot of people making a big deal about the shortage of competent "IT professionals." How about, a shortage of "professionals" in any field?
Georgia TECH's co-op program is better known.
You say "Georgia" and people thing UGA.
Ga Tech's CS program is relatively well respected.
Its ratings have been consistantly going up in the school ratings for a few years now. (and people say that those ratings are typically 4 or so years behind the actual changes).
I will be graduating from Tech with a CS degree in May, and I think I have a degree which is worth something. (I go to interiews and when I mention "Ga Tech" people say: Oh thats a good school)
I don't know about IllinoisTech, so you'll have to look into that.
If you are planning on going into grad-school, Ga Tech is a nice place to be (right now).
Luck!
Someone Moderate this up as funny and insightful. This is one of the best posts I have seem in a long time. 1 == true == I agree. 0 == false == I disagree. Only geeks can convey so much information so well.
Benman
I like my job too, even though I could probably be paid more at some other place. I keep thinking about the "total package." I have tons of freedom and I can work on interesting problems. I also go home at night and I have time to do things with my wife. To me that is worth more than (say $15k or $20k increase in salary.)
After 20 years, I found out something. If you don't love programming, it will destroy you. I wish I had a dollar for every knucklehead who told me "I hate to code but I like the money". They always ended up as a manager or a headhunter or unemployed. And people who can't code make the worst IT managers because they have nothing to cushion their fall and they don't understand the projects assigned to them.
Yes there is a shortage of programmers because it's a genetic skill. Programmers are born, not trained. You have to have a programming mindset to be a good programmer. And if you don't have it, you will hate doing it and no amount of money will satisfy you.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
I changed jobs six months ago. I was looking very seriously for 6-7 months, and somewhat seriously for about six months before that. In the end, I found that I could get a job that paid about what I'm making, give or take, on about a week's notice. I could get a great job that I liked within a month if I was willing to give up half my salary. But to get a great job that I liked at the salary I wanted -- that was tough.
One recruiter gave me a rule of thumb: expect to spend one month looking for every $10K you want in salary. Worked out about right in my case. What you want has a lot to do with how easy it is to find it. If all that matters is the salary, and you really are worth what you're asking for, you can get placed pretty quickly in the Washington, DC, area. If you're going to be picky, it may take quite a while to find the perfect fit you're looking for.
Turn it around -- I also have had to recruit. If you ask for a network engineer, you're going to get flooded with CNE and MCSE types (both certified and those still working on exams, or thinking about it), but you're not going to have a great selection of anyone with the right experience and salary range. I had lots of pressure to hire tremendously overqualified people at exceedingly low salaries. If you want entry level, they're out there. If you want certified (or certifiable), they're out there, too. My previous company would hire a temp at $100+ per hour to do work that we could have hired an entry level tech to do for $25K. At the same time, when recruiting, they'd insist that that entry level tech have a CNE and A+ certification, and disqualify anyone who wanted more than $30K.
On the recruiting side, there was a tremendous gap between what the company wanted, and what they were willing to pay for. They concluded that there was a shortage. I concluded that they were daft.
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
Hey /.
:P
I'm 18. I go to high school, I even was placed in college two years early by my loving administraition (OK, I think they put me in college to get me to shut up ), and do you know where I work?
I work at a grocery store.
The reason being isn't that I haven't tried. I have spammed my resume to every box I know of (have to stay local for college and high school) and they never answer. Everyone is head hunting because they figure that the people already employed are worth something. But I hate to say it, I have seen some MCSE and A+ people walk out of college doors with a smile on their face and I think to myself, "This is why I got into Linux".
It's not that Microsoft sucks, it fills a niche for people who just want it to work without the hassle of setup or finding apps. On the other hand, I became spiteful of MS after I realized what a load of crap their software was after a job at an ISP. I wasn't the admin, but I was answering tech support phones in a temporary position. What ended up happening is my term of employment expired and their central admin was hired for another company for probably twice his salery and a lot of extra goodies, and I ended up back at a register.
I think (keep in mind that the following opinion is presented by someone who has only had intro and first classes in VB, C++, and HTML) that the main problem in the buisness is that everyone is looking for certification. When I went for that tech support job, the admin quizzed me on the phone about various situations. He could care less if I failed evey grade between here and preschool, so long as I could do the work he would take me in. He eventually got me started on doing the administraition for the Linux boxen at the ISP, and I took off from there.
I'm self educated in Linux, and can't find a job because I am certified in NOTHING. Another thing to consider is that self educated people (so long as they haven't picked up a bla-blah-for-dummies book) is that they usually know what they don't know. I can tell you right now, I can't do frame relay, I haven't configured sendmail, samba, or vhosting, and I should learn perl. I plan on doing these things in time, but how can I expect the situation to change when everyone is busy eating each other's employees or looking for crap certification?
I can't even get my HOWTO page on PPPoE in Linux posted (if anyone is baffled by the ADSL-HOWTO they have up, make sure you tell them so, I'd love to have mine alongside the existing one). Heck, Linux is taking off, and I might just have to go back to answering phones at a Linux company if that's what it takes, but I'll always feel like I shorted myself if I did that.
If anyone is near philly and wants a young employable person, I'm reachable at Tiberian@Jacked-In.Org. Come and get me. And hey, if I never hear a peep out of anyone, I'll know I was right in what I posted.
--Joshua
"If it is broken, fix it. If it is fixed, improve upon it. This becomes one helluva cycle."
CGI? You got to be kidding. You should take a look at J2EE, then maybe you can attract and retain some talented programmers.
Well, my current job is as the everything person at a very small company. I've been attempting to learn how to do stuff, with nobody else with any real skills working with me, and based on skill I picked up working on my Physics degree and in some subsequent computer related jobs.
When I posted my information to a few job sites I got plenty of responses, mostly from tech recruiters. I got a few interviews, but no jobs that I wanted to take, was qualified to take, and was willing to take me. I did have some strict criteria, and I do feel that if I was fired tommorrow I would have a decent job within a month or so.
On the other side of coin, we have tried to hire people to help out here, but I'm not sure that we are ever going to be able to find someone with the right skills, in the right price range, willing to become part of such a small company.
There seem to be a lot of resumes and job offers flinging all around these days, but few of them latching on to one another. Employers want everything but the kitchen sink, but this is just to make up for the fact that they may jump ship by the time they've been trained.
All the same, an exciting time to be in this business.
You could load Slashdot on a 286? Impressive...
--
"A dessert without cheese is like a beautiful woman who has lost an eye." -- Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin
I've just noticed that hitting Esc while typing in a comment will erase said comment. Grrrr!!! It's a vi trap! Pull back! ;) I've forgotten what I wanted to say. I'll try again later.
Ahh, something I actually know about. I am in the middle of my second year at GA Tech, as a Computer Engineering major. I will say, Tech, like any school, will get you the education you take from it, but it does so in a much more intense and self conscious way than most. I will say, that we have a great CS program (most of my friends are in Comp-E or CS), but if you take the route of the frat boys or SGA management types, you can slide by, off of other peoples work. I have found that one of the biggest advantages to going to such a large hardcore engineering school is that it is very easy for me to surround myself with Geeks. Certainly not everyone here is a Geek, but they are pretty pervasive here. In my opinion, if you are up to the challenge, it is an excellent school, one of the best.
On the other hand, don't go into it with any illusions of a wonderful program full of happy helpful professors. One of the reasons our school has so much industry respect is that is really prepares you for dealing with the industry. Our profs aren't very good, but the expectation is very high- that is what makes the program good- they say- you do X by date Y, now go do it. There is very little hand holding, and it is up to you to utilize your available resources and get it done, and if you can't, then don't expect much pity. That is very much how the industry works- expectation is put forth, and you just have to figure out how to meet it. Don't forget, our mascot may be the yellow jacket, but our campus symbol/central location of campus is a painfully fallic 83 foot tall, twisting, spiraling, tri-pointed shaft, known as The Shaft. It is there for a reason.
If you have any questions about the school though, or getting plugged in, my icq # is 25834656.
At Tech we have all the technological resources available, and a lot of industry respect, but utilizing it is up to you. Also we do have one of the best co-op programs in the world- so far I have finished 3 periods of school, and I am working now on my third period co-oping (I work for the IT dept of a major telecomm company in Raleigh)
I don't respect your opinions, but I respect your right to hold them
It is sad, but there a lot of people in the CS department at my university who are in it for the money. But not me. I am here because I find the subject matter pretty intuitive and fun.(read: not really hard work)
So usually I sit in class and watch the hands go up when the professor asks how many people have enrolled in this class, and pretty much I feel sorry for those people because if they ever graduate, they will never have a job they enjoy!
Of course, the only job I ever had in the industry was a 6-month coop positions with a large, well known technology company, and they basically just subsidized me reading Slashdot for 8 hours a day.
Oh that's a bunch of bleeding heart bull pucky! There's no shortage of *jobs*, money, *or* employers willing to pay. The last time I decided to change jobs, I put a message out on my Linux Users Groups saying I was looking. By 3:30 the next afternoon, I had a better job with a 50% raise. In fact, every job I've had in the past 5 years has increased my salary by 50%. I have no degree, yet I get calls/spam from head hunters weekly offering me stellar salaries. Nobody is trying to enslave anyone. *sheesh*
The jobs are out there. The money is out there. All you need is a pulse and the willingness to move to Silicon Valley.
Trying to find a part-time job took me over three months, and within that three months, I only had gotten two responses (including my current job). I did have many offers to work full-time, but with me being a full-time student, I would have such a tough time doing that.
-motardo
I'm working at a small company, and, basically, I'm all of them, including the VHDL design bit (plus a bit of Verilog as well). Since I haven't got the time to actually code the front-end to the database I'm leaving that to our first-tier support guy.
We hired him because he had affinity with computers. He just left college with a degree in electronics and I'm showing him all corners of the IT spectrum, from Linux and HP/UX adminning through VHDL design, PCB design, M$-Access, SQL, perl, C++ and whatnot, just to test his smarts.
He doesn't pretend to be an IT professional, or boast about experience, but he picks up things quickly, and says 'Oops' when he makes a mistake (like rebooting the file server).
It's people like this you want, not the ones who wave an MCSE (yuck!) diploma at your face and don't take responsibilities for their actions. They're honest, driven, and far more prone to cross over to other specializations than other people. However, people with that much drive and so little ego are indeed hard to find.
I am one of the people who has multiple physical disabilities (i.e. can't talk clearly, cannot drive a vehicle, etc.). I can do computers very well.
:)
Is it me or do employers get worried about people like me? Also, I don't get paid very well (35K) and it took me almost a year to find my first full-time job as a Web developer (now, I am a SQA tester for Web stuff). I am talking about salary jobs with fringe benefits, not contract work. Currently, I have been working for a commercial real estate company in testing and doing Web development since December 1998.
Anyone else who is in similiar situation like mine? Thank you in advance for replies.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I got fed up with the recruiting process, and me and a friend started a business. It's still a baby, but we're making some money, adn there's the promise of more in the future. If you can afford to not have a job (or at least, take a part-time one like I am) for a year, go for it! The experience you get in the first six months is priceless. And you might even get to apply something you learned from school! Imagine that. We are.
lf.o
First you must understand what an IT professional is. Unfortunately M$ would love to make everyone think that anyone with an MCSE is an IT professional. If that were the case we would not have a shortage at all, there are several hundred thousand MCSEs around and many more passing M$s easy tests every year. But what it takes to be an IT professional is a good understanding of how a company's network operates. This means a senior network administrator should know DNS, NFS, NIS, sendmail, apache, Linux and how various flavors of Unix (at least Solaris) work together. Understanding Unix and networking seems to be the challenging part to all those new MCSEs out there. I'm sure they took a course that taught them if they added TCP to M$s protocols and added in a few numbers they would be on the net, but most MCSEs don't understand how routers or switches work, and are clueless when it comes to other internet technology like IP masquerading / NAT and how these affect network services like mail or httpd requests. They should also have a basic scripting ability and preferrably a good background in perl to help automate sys admin tasks. And you can't forget the hardware side of the coin. They should know how to take any PC clone or desktop unix box apart, replace drives, memory, etc. And setup and configure all the new server hardware you buy to keep your network running soundly. Its also a good idea for an IT professional to know how to integrate a UNIX and NT network and provide 99% uptime and keep ahead on resources.
I started here in the valley 3 years ago without a clue about how networks or Unix worked. During that time I helped build up a startup that went public and watched how a company grows and what is required of IT within the first 2 years of a companies growth.
I have to disagree when they say we have enough IT professionals. Think about the growth of internet based companies in the last year. Everyone should have a competent, professional IT person on staff. And if you consider a professional someone who can work on project level assignments, such as designing and building the company intranet (I assure you no manager or CEO knows how to design a company network or recommend server hardware better than a real IT professional), we have a serious lack of the talent that is needed. I don't even think I qualify as a senior level systems administrator and I could get my MCSE tomorrow if I wanted to.
In conclusion, it would be a much nicer internet if there wasn't such a shortage of network administrators. Problems such as the DOS attacks on Ebay, yahoo, etc. wouldn't have happened if we had enough competent IT professionals. A good way to find out if you have a top notch IT department is to check what they monitor on a regular basis. Yes they do backups and keep the network running for the most part, but do they get paged whenever a production system goes down? Do they know the status of your intranet all the time without being at their desk? Can they install, upgrade, patch and for almost all situations do their job remotely? Then they are probably an IT professional.
I'm a Boston-area student taking some time off (returning to classes this summer), and I have had no luck finding anything remotely technical.
I studied Journalism (though my degree will be English with a tech writing certificate), I was webmaster for my school paper, and I worked at a Help Desk for 5 semesters. Appartently, I dont't qualify for anything because I have (a) no CS degree, (b) no "real-world" experience, or (c) no car (I live in the inner city, very close to the T).
I have a portfolio. I belong to a lug . I'm funny. I'm smart. And I'm working as a secretary. Any clues as to what I'm doing wrong?
Put my clarinet beneath your bed 'till I get back in town.
I'm one of the masses who did it "for the money". I discovered computers in college, and right after taking my second (ever) CS course, my family's already shaky finances took a turn for the worse. I didn't like programming, but I didn't want to have to move back home and starve (or work in a factory again).
Two semesters later, living on tuna and ramen and working 50-hour weeks in a factory didn't seem like such a bad idea. I was so burnt out I had nightmares about computers. I changed my major and eventually dropped out of school. I'm now working s a secretary, getting the hang of Perl, writing a webpage, and planning to take classes again (English, Tech writing certificate) this summer.
If you don't truly like programming, you're going to burn out sooner or later. I'm now glad I learned that sooner, rather than later.
Put my clarinet beneath your bed 'till I get back in town.
I'm desperately trying to hire Unix Systems Admins in NYC, and am having a hell of a time. It seems everyone is either doesn't have enough real experience, or they're already making a fortune and have sweet stock options with a pre-IPO company. There definately IS a shortage of Unix Admins here. That's also taking salaries through the roof. Typical sysadmin here with at least 3 years experience, can get about $60-80k/year. 6+ years, you're looking $120k+. Almost makes me want to start looking for a new job just so I can get a $30k raise. Every recruiter I talk to says they have 20-40 job orders for every sysadmin that walks through the door. It's definately a sysadmin's market here.
As for crap people: there are plenty to fill the spaces ...
threadeds blog
A startling example is a company I contracted for who had a really super skilled C++ programmer. His code was flawless, and worked first time etc. He was good get the idea. He basically made the companies product. He should have been made a share owner. Anyhow the company management was complete tosh, hopeless bunch of losers.
Because the chap was so good, he was in demand constantly, eventually ended up in his not having a holiday for over two years!
So, one day he said, 'enough is enough, I'm off on holiday in a month for a week'. They said if he did that they would sack him.
So it came to pass.
Within a year the company had all but gone bust and was taken over.
threadeds blog
I have ~4 years experience in any number of different cool things (SS7, unix crap, C, C++ etc etc etc) plus a 4 year degree from a massively liberal, itty, bitty learning institution in s. vermont (yes Marlboro College my friends) and I make >60k. With large numbers of options. The west coast of the US is a gravy train right now. Hop on and get some for yourself son.
It's the happiness that counts for the job, not status or money. I work in a very lax and fun environment, and although i could go make 150% more somewhere else, why would i when i love my job and am comfortable where I'm at? Do what you like, take control of your job, and have a good time. Money is third to happiness and friends, and don't you forget that.
Mike Roberto
- roberto@soul.apk.net
-- AOL IM: MicroBerto
Berto
Professional regulation a la architects is not going to happen now that open source is here. The analogy would be something like "you will now need a Professional Software Engineer licence to write code". I don't think so. With people all over the planet in different countries contributing to open source projects that the data infrastructure of the entire planet uses this kind of scheme would be (fortunately) totally unenforceable. Of course that doesn't mean that American big business/big gummint (is there any difference) won't try to get something like this. So be on the watch.
--
Nothing to see here. Mooooove along...
That must be why I'm having such a hard time finding jobs in the Midwest. I don't want to live in any of the cities you mentioned.
Why is it so hard to find a tech job in a large town (25k-100k)? Geez I hate cities.
Constitutionally Correct
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Eric has a point.
...
/Duncan
Many searches are run by HR depts with a very specific set of requirements. I was recently looking for sysadmin style positions. Many positions wanted specifically:
veritas exp
Specifically Solaris or HP/UX or AIX or
one group wanted me to have worked as an ISP running a network center since that was their business. I had exp on all their platforms and even had the telephony background. Not interested
I was starting from scratch in a new part of the country as I moved back to the US from Germany. If I was willing to work in NY or Silicon Valley then my contacts/former associates had jobs waiting for me.
I think that much of the problem is how to filter correctly. IT is too broad, and we need to come up with common definations for jobs. If we could do that it would be easier to find people and get jobs you want.
When I was in NY, I was hiring tech support staff for a programming product. My budget didn't allow me to hire very experienced people and I ended up hiring new grads. Since our product was networked, I was losing people 8-14 months after hire to sysadmin jobs.
It is a big mess and companies are all over the map. We need to standardized job descriptions a bit.
Duncan Watson -Rock climbing, Encryption, privacy
PGP Fingerprint -PGP Key on www.keyserver.net
Duncan Watson
And I have over 15 years of experience.
My wife and I are moving to Vancouver, BC sometime this fall. Anyone know companies that really have an IT shortage there? :)
-Legion
There are more than two states here. Why does this issue always have to end up as an argument between the 'forget the design crap lets just pound out the code' bunch and the 'abstract design concepts are always more important than trivial issues of implementation' crowd? This is not an either/or thing. Both perspectives are wrong if they fail to admit that both are important. Teaching abstract design to someone who has only the vaguest experience coding is usually a waste of time because they can't relate what you're teaching to anything and consequently won't TRULY undestand (or likely even remember) what they are being taught. On the other side, simply diving into development without a good design leads to frequent rewrites to account for things you didn't think of the first time around and programs that are not easily maintainable or extendable. Sure, you can write software this way but 9 times out of 10 it won't be even close to the quality you could have gotten simply by thinking things through first.
Frankly I'm getting tired of the smug certainty that focusing on the abstract is the way schools should go because it's the 'Right' way to do things. Schools like that produce people who can memorize stuff they don't understand, long enough to pass the tests and get their degrees. Then they get sent to people like me in the real world to re-teach them what the schools should have taught in the order they should have taught it. And I'm also tired of having to rewrite the crap that the 'code first and ask questions later' people produce. If it has to be done over then the time it took to plan first might not have been wasted after all hmmmm?
I think everyone would benefit from a little dose of reality on this whole issue. How about it?
K&R C Lives!
"The romance of Silicon Valley was about money - excuse me, about changing the world, one million dollars at a time."
Visit
That rule protects the American workers more than the foreigners. They don't want you hiring Mexicans for $1 /hour instead of Americans for $5 (I know you'd have to pay mininum wage, it's just an example).
From the immigrant's POV, it's harder to find a job, but if you do, you get more.
It's only economical to import skilled labor, not cheap labor.
The company where I work lets us sleep in our cubicles, so I don't have to spend money on an apartment. I invest the extra money in our company's stock. My manager says the stock value is guaranteed, there's a storage room full of computer hardware for collateral in the basement.
In Boston we have such a shortage that I don't even look for jobs anymore, they look for me. I typically get 3-4 contacts a day either by phone or email offering me work. And if I'm interested, I tell them my salary REQUIREMENTS, what I'm interested in doing, and 9 outa 10 times they say ok, meet with me for 45 minutes and hire me on the spot. I'm on job number 7 in 2.5 years, never been a contractor, and usually increase my salary by 20k each jump I make. I like this economy.
PDG
"Where is my mind?"
...Of jobs of anykind in my neck of the woods regardless of the type, exceptions are always made for health care professionals, always need more of them everywhere.
Of course my neck of the woods is Nebraska USA that should explain alot, I can speak of only what I have seen and know.
Computers save man alot of guesswork, but so does the bikini
i worked with a fellow this summer who was answering phones with me at a help desk, and one headhunter called up and asked to talk to our unix people. (this was odd enough, since we are the main entrance to the unix support system there.) this guy told the headhunter that he was the main interceptor for tech support calls on that subject, and the headhunter would have to talk to him and tell him the problem. the headhunter then asked him how much he knew about solaris.
now my friend knows his stuff, so he explained some VERY basic things about solaris to the headhunter, who then came clean: he was actually trying to recruit a solaris technician from our people.
people have got to be DESPERATE for good unix sysadmins if they're doing stuff like that.
jon
-- http://www.cerastes.org
When I was a programmer, I knew all about managers like you. Wait, I still am a programmer. You see, there are a lot of people who think that just anyone can be a programmer. While I agree that the C.S. degree is not necessary, it's certainly not a drawback. Your lack of insight is astonishing. Are there then not programmers who are interested in gardening, neuro-chemistry, english literature, guitar playing, advanced mathematics, pure sciences and applied, cooking and engineering, etc? Your argument falls down flat there.
Why is everyone so intent on "disproving this myth" that there is an IT talent shortage? Don't you people know this gives you leverage when you negotiate your salary? If it were true then, yes, it would help me negotiate my salary; but it isn't. Instead, the impression that there is a shortage is being broadcast loudly by corporations via lobbyists to get the H1B visa cap raised. What does this mean for native U.S. IT workers? It effectively caps our salaries at 60k (or somewhere around there), because that's the minimum pay a foreign H1B holder can be paid. As distasteful as I find this, I can't complain too loudly, as I've always felt protectionism is wrong. Disclaimer: I'm working from memory here. The amounts may be be wrong, but the overall point is not.
--
If the only thing that is keeping you in your current job is the fact that you are the low bidder to do the work, you deserve to be flipping burgers. Exactly my point. Companies will, on the average, go with the lowest bidder. Which is going to be a lot closer to that $60k if the H1B visas are expanded. We seem to be on 2 different discussions here. I was answering your original question why there are people attempting to bust the illusion of a shortage. Good faith effort too. Instead, you turn on me; insulting, flaming and telling me I'm not worth a shit for not finding the market as lucrative as you have.
--
I'm not sure if it's visa problems, or companies not willing to sponsor people or what, but I have tried for years to get a tech job in Europe. Nobody seems to want anything I have to offer (not true in the US). I submit resumes to these companies, and often here that they don't work with people out of their own countries. Whatever. If there was a consulting company that specialized in this, I would love to sign up.
WWJD -- What Would Jimi Do?
(Smash amp, burn guitar, take home the groupies)
Oh, I'm going to put it on there for sure.
To be quite honest, I put a lot of time and effort into it (all self study, paid for myself). Even though I no longer enjoy Microsoft and their products as much as I once did, I am proud of the hard work it took me to earn my MCSE and some of the basic concepts it taught me. I learned a lot about TCP/IP from the books, and many of the ideas (such as UNIX UIDs and NT's SIDs) helped me learn UNIX much quicker since the same concepts applied to both OSes (unique user identification numbers for each user).
As for what the original poster meant by the statement, why don't we as him or her. Comments original poster? =)
Wow, you throw out MCSEs right away, huh? That's too bad. If you think about it for a moment, perhaps you would realize you're missing some people that have real skills. There is a word for what you do: stereotyping.
I do agree that many MCSEs out there don't know what they're doing, and it is true that a MCSE proves you can only pass tests, but you may or may not have madskilz.
I personally have my MCSE which I obtained in September 1998. After that time I grew bored with the "Microsoft solution" and started looking in to UNIX. The more I read and found out about, the more I enjoyed it, found it's beauty in simplicity, and was then introduced to Linux.
I had used Linux in the past (Slackware), but after I really got into it and installed Red Hat, I've never looked back. Now, rather than going to the NT Server team at my company, I choose to hold off, and I'm now a Sysadmin supporting HP-UX, Solaris, OSF1 and run Linux on 4 of my 5 machines at home. I'm never going back to NT.
Put simply, people can and do change. I don't dispise NT like some people here, but I still won't take a job supporting it. It's a much better idea to keep an open mind and not toss aside people just because they can "pass a few tests". You just might be missing an excellent potential employee.
In all the salary surveys I've seen, Unix sysadmins on average make a lot more than MCSE's.
Here in Silicon Valley, $60k/yr is a salary for a beginning-to-intermediate level sysadmin. $80k/yr to infinity are where the senior UNIX sysadmins are at.
Nice thing about UNIX is that you really don't need any certifications. Most employers know that if you know just Linux, you can handle Solaris, and vice-versa.
I have been playing with computers for 12 years now, and making a "livining" from them for 6. The only certification I've got is the A+ certification, which is an absolute joke, I wrote both test in under 10min. Certifications and Degree's only add letters after some ones name. I've got loads of experience for someone who is 19, I beta tested NT Server (not one of the free giveaway ones), I have at home a Firewall, DNS, WEB, FTP, MAIL server along with VPND, and asortment of other things setup. You'd think this would help find me a job?? Nope I don't have my MCSE nor College or University. I am running my own computer business out of my basement with two other guy. We are try to get contracts/work/etc. but we're geeks, not sales people... quite painful
Anyone out there got a similar situation?
I should note to your second point: "...or the flip side which is those that know real well but are complete mercenaries and would screw over their employer or client in a heartbeat..." - in almost all cases employers of such "mercenaries" are anything, but not the lambs. They are ready to get out skin (e.g. salary/wages, benefits, etc) on each employee without any doubt in soul. Actually, they do NOT have a soul - they are employers. So, they deserve each other. Don't cry for poor employers :)
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It all depends on the location that you start looking for a job. I graduated in a city of 60000 that had 3 colleges turning out Comp. Sci. grads. Needless to say the labor market was tight there. But in larger cities, i think that all you have to do is look and you will find an IT position that is waiting to be filled.
I haven't had a chance to read the article yet (link won't load...) but I have to wonder, if there really isn't a shortage, does the government know about this? I know a lot of IT companies will hire foriegn IT people and because of the supposed shortage it is easy to get them the visas they need.
I'm a shareholder in an small ISP. We register about 1000 domains per month and most of them have a web site requirement. There's plenty of work around here if you like small projects.
.oO0Oo.
It's great if you don't like working much. You can make a tidy sum knocking a whole site together in a couple of weeks and take a weeks off to do your own thing. No too stressful.
I work like that and by telling five people in our towns computer community my phone rings every hour with a few questions and job leads.
It's like I don't have to worry because good people with time on their hands are hard to find too.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
While the comment was in jest it betrays a problem that bothers me. As a high school student, who earns his spending money by providing tech support for a broad network of friends and family I found his comments to be very offensive.
More than that, it is simply bad business practice. I have earned more repeat business by telling a person: "I can't fix this, but here is someone who can" than any other way. I recently got a job writing client/server crypto breaking software for a professor simply because of it. When he proposed the project I told him I did not know enough to do it. He responded that he trusted me to give him something that worked exactly as he wanted it to, and that was worth paying me to learn how to do it. If had not been honest with the fellow he would have gone elsewhere. I get more jobs saying, I don't know how to do that but I could in X weeks than by looking directly at my resume.
Nate Custer
"The poet presents his thoughts festively, on the carriage of rhythm; usually because they could not walk" Nietzsche
Alright, I'm 21, in Canada that means that I am at the apex of the Baby Bust. As of this year, with the 20 year olds coming out of their two year programs, the IT workforce is starting to get the Echo. Ergo, from here on in the "youthful talent" will only grow.
I do realise that US demographics are at one or two years offset from us, but not ten years as the author suggests. Maybe I'm missing something here, but honesty I have a hard time taking the rest of the article seriously when he can't grasp simple demographics...
Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing - Pythagoras
finding *qualified* people is a real bear. I think a large part of the problem is MCSE and even CNE certs are jokes nowdays (OK, MCSE *always* was, but CNE used to be a little worthwhile). Most IT folks go gunning for these, end up learning how to pass the tests, and NOT how to actually do the work, and the talent pool just gets diluted. Some managers at the company I work for are getting so desperate they're offering key spots to college grads with no experience (I'm NOT knocking college grads).
mas cerveza, por favor politically incorrect stu
You can't worry about things 10 years out at any age, especially 15 years old. As far as parents wanting there children to go into CS, when did children start doing what their parents want? That's not going to happen anytime soon! Just do what you enjoy, worrying about future job markets will just drive you crazy. If you like CS, go for it.
I just graduated from UQ here is Brisbane, and applied for 5 jobs in my first week after exams. Now, I'm an average student, one that all the big companies overlook because of my gpa, but I sent these application letters to smaller engineering/it firms. Of the 5 letters, I recieved 4 requests for interviews. I got hired at my first interview.
What I'm trying to say here is that if you look in the right places, the jobs are plentiful. Especially here in Australia.
Good luck to everyone out there trying to find a job..
yeah... came to me while i was waking up one afternoon. if you can find a complete lyric sheet for me to bastardize, email it to me.
I'm living here in Utah and I have tried to find a good job in the technical industry for months... Finally I just decided to start my own business. Shortage? what shortage? There is an excess of IT people here, please take them somewhere else.
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson
NPS Internet Solutions, LLC
www.npsis.com
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson
www.haidacarver.com
No shit. I used to work for a company (which shalt remain nameless) that tried to hire out of US works. The staff there was %90 non-us, %10 white americans. I was one of the white americans. System admin work, for that company in the last 7 years they have had 10 system admins! Why? I don't know forgein works do come in system admin form?
Anyways, all the programers and hackers there where highly skilled people (non-us). They work C/C++ for 12-16 hours per day, 5 days a week. Really nice people, really skilled to.
The thing I never understood was that I (Unix system admin) was making 4 times the amount the head developer (ie. real hacker) was making, he was more skilled at his trade then me, he worked harder and longer hours and had more experience.
Typically programers make more than a system admin. That is the way it is, anyone can get a couple Linux boxes at home and learn basic admin in a couple month, but programmers ussually need massive amounts of college and practice to learn their trade.
I left the company awhile ago because the company was really fucking immoral about it's business practices (and can I really say this in an interview, they will think I am dis-guntled), and now I see why they had so many out of state workers.
To think about it, when the head developer/programmer was working there (still is), he was making less than my freind (based on per hour) that did manual labor (put CD's into boxes all day).
Seriouly this guy was chucking out 12-16 hour days, had developed and programed thousands of lines of code, everything from GUI to lowlevel ASM, he was a really good hacker. He once re-wrote a driver for an ATM card without source to the card nor the old driver, by him self, by hand, during the weekend, his "spare" time.
The world is fucked up. These workers should not be controlled like this. They should be able to come into the country, and be able to work for any dam company they wish. If it suckes, they SHOULD have the right of us americans have and say "This fucking sucks, you are an asshole, fuck off I am going to work at VA Linux."
They may be non-citizens, they maybe non-american, but what really matters is that they are true hackers at heart.
I want to work for a company that is controlled by geeks, not some greedy money-hungary asshole who only cares about the "bottom line"
There is 2 things more important (as far as jobs are concerned, NOT life in general), and that is people must come first, second it should be done for the "hack" or because it is the Right Thing(TM) to do. It should be done, because that is they way it should be done, NOT because it will make or loss money.
Fuck that, fuck these companies, I should go into a differant field where they care about their employees and they care about the Right Way(TM) of doing things, not the bottom line.
I would take a lower paying job that had a better office moral, higher job safication, and more "human" envoirment with
If you want to bring more workers in, that is fine, along as they do it the Right Way(TM). Make sure they have they same rights as the other people living in this country. If they don't or can't bring the workers in and give them the rights they derserve, they should not bring them in at all, because the only thing they are doing is bring them into slavery.
I could be one-sided since the only experience I have had with this is from a company that was already immoral about their business practices, so if they are already corrupted at one aspect of the business, it could of fed over into this part of their HR department.
Maybe there is companies out there that do have moral and right ways of bringing forgein work in, but for the rest of the companies that do it the Wrong Way(TM):
Fuck those companies, they should be shot.
J(ust)MHO
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
Do you need a System Admin by chance?
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
Plus NY is ranked in the top 10 highest costs of living.
.02$ per minute you where online (not my the telco, by the ISP!), I don't know what there telco charges.
/could/ be reasonable. It also means any sysadmin that takes a job like this will mean he will be there 24/7 no matter what and he will be lucky if he can find 6 hours a day to eat/sleep/shower and relax on the "non-busy" days, if in fact "non-busy" days do exist.
$80K in NY == $40IL in almost any other city.
$120K may look like allot on paper, but not really. I was looking at a sysadmin job in Alaska, and it was running about $75K per year, + stock. I did some firgure, and I found out that I made MORE in IL doing asst. level sysadmin work then if I would of moved up there.
A 1 room "shed" up there was running for $85K, a 5 room house here doesn't break that.
I would have had allot neater systems to work with up there, the main reason I didn't go was because Alaska is fscking cold and all my family/freinds are down here.
BTW, they didn't have cusomer grade ISDN, DSL or cable there, 28.8 dial ups where $25 per/month
It depends what city, $75K in Anachod (my spelling sucks) Alaska worked out to about $150 week spendable money after bills. Which if you have an addiaction to computers and the Internet isn't really that much, plus sometimes eating and putting gas in your car is nice.
I haven't lived or even looked at what it cost to live in NY (just remebered it from when I looked up Anacorg Alaska), but for a 6+ year sysadmin that is on top of his field, 120K this
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
does it stand for Minesweeper Consultant - Solitaire Expert ;-)
;-)
This concerns 30,000 posts for people from Eastern Europe and Far East.
Like you I've also returned to school to do CS, not for the money but to learn how these nutty computers actually work. When I was selecting a university I was amazed at how many degrees were totally focussed on in demand skills that help land jobs immediately after graduating, not on teaching the fundamentals that last an entire carreer.
These schools continually boasted about the employment rate of students after graduating, not what their graduates were doing five years after. This so called shotage is probably employers realising that not all degrees are equal, some are just there to fill a gap in the employment market.
Or maybe it's the bad attitudes of recent graduates, is it just me or do they all think they're hot shit these days?
Australian? Join EFA
Hello potential employer :)
:)
I've been using and installed Linux on countless machines over the last five years. Although I have no formal experience in the IT field, I'm ready to start, because I'm out of work
*Starving Linux User in Detroit!* *grIN*
Here! Here! I couldn't agree with you more! Problem is, if they dropped all of the fat (much like the areospace industry about 10 years ago), the stock market would go in the trash... -= i Know notHing. thAt is Why i Program Komputers. =-
Oh, I forgot to mention that when I moved here a little over three years ago I was working with a consultant that oversold me to the client. The guy doing the interview kept asking me about things that I'd never been exposed to. I told him I'd be happy to learn 'X', but that I didn't have any experience in that arena. Seems the guy had taken all that the consultant said as gospel when a quick read of my resume would have shown that those things weren't even listed.
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
If you only hire programmers who rely on established and provided data structures and who don't grok the fundamentals, then please tell me the name of your company so I can avoid your products - because they're most likely built by robots who don't know what the hell they're doing.
{Deth Onastick}
After you take out the taxes on that $120K, you'll hava a lot less disposable income.
{Deth Onastick}
There are two types of people to consider. Those who are capable of doing a good job (certifications or not) and 'social prostitutes' who will do or say whatever it takes to get the job.
Unfortunately the second group gets control (sucking up) and everone else suffers. The incompetent ones get to be managers then they make unreasonable demands (asking for people with 10 years of java or 15 years of perl experience) then they cry shortage amd hire their friends while the others now out of a job cant find work.
There are exceptions but for all that I have seen its not what you know but who you know.
This type tends to eventually do an MBA, and unfortunately gets put into a position managing geeks by somebody who made it into management through sales and thinks that MBA + some tech experience = competent tech manager.
IMHO, companies often shoot themselves in the foot when they are looking for people because they look for very specific skillsets, like, for example, I've seen listings like this:
Java/Corba/Servlets/UML 1+ years in each.
Well, there aren't a whole lot of candidates that meet these requirements, but there are others that have maybe C++ background or Smalltalk or PowerBuilder or some other translatable skill that might be willing to learn Java. Of course, the company also want someone that meets these requirements to be in some predefined range like 40-60K. Good luck, I say.
Couple this kind of HR bungling with the loss of the social contract between employee and company, and you get a "shortage" of cheap people - everyone who's any good usually ends up independent consultant or body-shop consultant. There's not a shortage of people, there's a shortage of people who are adept at hiring the right people. The old are discriminated against, the Indians are taken advantage of, the recent grads are robbed of a lot of their early life, and the companies scream for more H1-B's. The hell with that - make do with the workforce you have, and stop treating people like disposable diapers.
I have 10 years experience in all types of IT work. I have worked as SysAdmin for UN*X, Novell, and WinNT networks, worked helpdesk, planned networks, wired buildings, fixed workstations, built servers, troubleshot all kinds of problems, and alot more. I STILL have trouble finding a job because I don't have a degree.
I have trouble getting responses to my resume' because I have never been to college and don't have certifications. It's a shame really, as I have a strong work ethic and am very competent.
I live in Tampa FL and see every week in the paper jobs listed that require very specialized knowledge, lots of experience in multiple environments, and degrees and/or certifications. These jobs should pay over $40K and are listed at $35K or less.
I am underemployed, overworked and underpaid. I am planning to attend school in the summer and work towards a degree, but in the mean time I will not be working up to my potential, because some HR drone thinks that without a degree a person can't be qualified. And I will probably leave Tampa because the pay is better elsewhere.
If there is a shortage of IT people, it is artificially created by HR and managers.
Of course, this is only my opinion, I could be wrong.
In my opinion preferring foreign workforce rather than domestic is not only about the costs. Many of my buddies work abroad, and I found some common points among what they told about it. I think some of these points can make a foreign worker really more attractive:
:)]
1. Foreign workers often feel like they have to equal higher expectations, therefore they work harder than a local guy of the same qualification and capabilities.
2. Maybe it does not apply everywhere, but somewhere not only the payment is less for foreign workers. The employer also has to pay some social security, etc. for local workforce, and with a well-written contract it can be legally evaded for foreigners.
3. Without detailed knowledge and with a good CV an employer is more likely to consider someone more determined, encouraged, creative, etc. from the "other side of the world" rather than from three blocks down the street. [And if he/she managed to get a permission to work in USA, it could be even true
4. We have to admit, that for any given country there are countries, where specific professions can be acquired at a higher level - like some Asian and Eastern-European countries against USA for mathematics. (See http://www.payvand.com/news/99/sep/1069.html about this.) There are also some countries, which are informally considered as "creative" countries.
5. In the bigger part of the world it is "cool" to work in USA, however it is not the same in the opposite direction, therefore - assuming that not the dumb, but the top-notch people are trying to get a job in America - in several cases a foreigner is a better choice.
6. For all it is bad, outfacing a foreigner is still easier, more effective, and less risky.
Zumu
I'd just like to say...
1) Yeah my spelling does suck, I know, it always has, and as far as i can tell will, until they impliment a spellchecker for these posts. I wonder if one like hotmails would work?
2) No, Envisonets not much to brag about, but it is the fastest growing company in the state, oh yeah and did i mention employees will soon be getting stock options...
3) You kick ass Vladinator!
1) Find a company you want to work for.
2) Realize that this company is currently employing people that aren't qualified to run a type writer...
3) Walk straight in there and say "I'm better than the poeple you have working for you now."
4) Presto! You're hired...
This stratagy has worked for me and some others i know.
Im currently employed at Envisonet and I got the job using this method.
Jainith
Oh yeah, this stratagy only works if you have the skills to back up step #3.
After a number of years as a roadie and househusband, I returned to the local community college 4 years ago to get a degree in networking (my original degree is in history). The reason was that I was, and am, fascinated with networking-- it's like, way, way, cool! Most of the folks I went to school with were strictly in it for the money. Most of them are looking for work. I think the deal is that you just can't do this work consistently unless you are in it for more than money. Sure, the money's nice, and, yeah, I'm studying for Cisco certification, but I'm doing it because *I think that designing networks is FUN*. Lots of folx are doing the 2-week certification boot camps, which IMO are strictly BS. My employer sent me to several of the MCSE classes at New Horizons and they were a big waste of my time. Well, NT Core Technologies did finally convince me to replace our NT server with Linux, so it wasn't a *total* waste ;) . Unfortunately most HR people don't know their butts from a hole in the ground about IT. As most of them have management degrees, they unfortunately have about the same quality of knowledge about anything else. So, they use the certification as some sort of benchmark, even though, for instance, having a CCNA doesn't tell the employer whether the prospective employee did it in a boot camp that teaches you how to pass the test, or in a 2-year long class with labs, etc., that delves very deeply into what makes a network work. The thing that need to change is that someone needs to start requiring labs and/or OJT for these certifications. Also, a certain amount of class hours or web-based training. Hiring an MSCE with no experience who took their classes from some place like New Horizons or MicroAge is about as smart as hiring Uncle Duke to perform brain surgery.
With computing taking over tasks that were previously done by humans, wouldn't that mean more computer professionals are needed to design, install and maintain these systems?
I would also not be surprised if some companies are accepting newly graduated Computing professionals over the older, perhaps more experienced people. For a start, the younger people are going to be more eager to impress, and would also be a bit more energetic(?) than the older people.
I'm certainly hoping that in 5-6 years time, coming out with a masters degree, I have a good job to walk in to.
-- Michael Lee Martin
I personally think that the IT industry is right in trying to get the people they need(*g* okay, I hope so... I'm studying CS myself...), but in Germany the problem is largely homemade; during the mid-90s, job counselors over here strongly advised students not to study computer science, claiming they needed more construction engineers to rebuild East Germany (the very industry that is collapsing there now... go figure).
I don't know how it is in the US, but I think one should include what young people are told when they are looking around what to study and whether or not the IT industry is putting enough effort in that before complaining about not being able to find IT people.
Very true. Why don't you tell that to all the "programmers" that are getting MCSE's in order to get a better programming job.
The original post was slightly exaggerated to emphasize my point -- which is that if you think an MCSE will get you a job, it'll get you round-filed any time my opinion is asked. Having an MCSE is not itself a detriment, but waving it in my face is. Seriously, how much credit do you give a resume titled MCSE? You laugh and trash it.
On the subject of education, it's a little more nebulous. There are great PhD's out there. A PhD in world literature is likely to be a better candidate than someone with a high-school diploma, even for a technical position. On the other hand, I've found some downright stupid PhD's, too. It's the same metric. If you think the piece of paper is your ticket to a job, you can count my position out.
Its very difficult to find good developers/IT people here in the silicon valley. But the good people have total flexibility of choice of jobs at standard rates of 150/hr or over 100k salaried. Want a job.. i'll get you one if you're competent, but i'm not a recruiter.
C0D3r
What I would really like to know is that why do the congressmen make all this hullaboo about increasing H1B's . Might be they are afraid too many "colored" people might get into the country and ruin the whitey whitey scene.Note the report specifies that it is mostly asians and hispanics getting in. Why not just make the cap on H1B unlimited with the precondition that the job be advertised for at least a month for US nationals and if no qualified gut can be got at a reasonable I repeat resaonable cost just throw it open to the world
**Life is too short to be serious**
I know that there is ALOT of IT jobs here in the Valley of the Sun (Phoenix, AZ), BUT, a majority seem to be contract/consulting not Permanent. Perhaps it's just the nomadic nature of our business?
"We're gonna need a bigger boat"
Well, I just started studing CS, and am looking back on 5+ years UNIX. Now, I personaly haven't aplied for any job (thought many offers are coming in daily) yet. Big Q: "How the hack am I supposed to find out if I qualify for Job X?". Most requierment list are filled with basics's and insight's. Is basic writing a HelloWorld, or ist basic doing DB access ? ...), but if I read post like "We need qualified IT people" I just feel worse. :o) ... -- wildcarts are sooo0 convinient "bash# rm -dR / *"
You talk about geeks and PhD's. OK do I qualify for a job if I configure an IDS for my subnet, or do I have to prove that I can set up a full blown multi-server web cache system ? I certainly f e e l underqualified (tought I probably am
Fact is, nobody tells you what you need to know, you just walk into an office and since you are desperate to get some expirience, you just say "Yes I can!".
Most headhunters don't have a clue what the jobs they offer require, thats why I won't meet with them
I just ment to draw a little attention to the problems on the other side
42 cows on a 42km road on their way to 42.org
Actualy I study in CH and have overheard this buzz on CeBit about the IT problem. I think it's fake, what they want are cheap workers, I really cannot believe you have people coming to you who don't know what port numbers are ... this just sounds like a bad joke to me!
:) Well, there are a lot of job offerings on all those funny webpages, but, those are not for real! See, on one job are up to 7 headhunters thats why our telephone/mailing-list is jammed :-/
ludicrously difficult to find anyone on the market with even the most basic appreciation
Is that so ? This must be a UK problem then. I know about FR, DE and CH. And I see loads of IT folks around me, I wounder, if more people would study CS if I could get a job.
You might try a EU wide search and you will find your people.
btw. "real techies" most probably will get a job in the US as well, won't they?
42 cows on a 42km road on their way to 42.org
Having read through the volume of posts, I noticed that one thing was constant, people are saying lack of a College degree is harming their search for a job.
Let me preface this by stating I have no degree, but I am curently working on one in MIS. I have experienced first hand the trouble you can run into when applying for a job w/o a degree. However, I've been a geek since I was 10 (I'm 26 now) starting with the venerable Atari 800XL to the multinode network I have at home now.
I personally think a College degree is overrated when it comes to IT. Really good IT people love what they do, and because of that they work on it all the time to become better. The site I'm at now requires a BA to get in, but contractors don't need a degree. I came on as a contractor, and they were impressed enough to hire me, even though I have no degree. I love what I do, and I use the companies paid training to learn all sorts of stuff. The contractor conversion route is a fine way to get in, but you need.... *drum roll* experience to get hired. that's the catch 22. I got my experience by settling for a job making enough to get by, doing routine coding/support, and used that time to sharpen my skills.. a year later I bailed and joined the contract ranks. Don't assume you deserve 60K+ because you can hack with the best, the companies that are going to pay you that expect you to know how to function in a corp. environment, and that's learned through experience. On the flip side, I'm learning college will teach you how to be a programmer, how to think in data stuctured and algorithms, and solve problems. Some people are good enough that they don't need that base, I find it helps me greatly.
I am the lord of the pun. Dance Knave!
I've recently graduated college and have found almost nothing by way of work in my field of training. I think the biggest issue is that companies aren't really sure of what they are looking for. Many of the jobs I have applied for have been for Junior level programmers, but require 2-3 years of experience. I don't know about anyone else, but that isn't my idea of junior anything.
The chains are broken
Loki is free
Ragnarok is at hand...
I think that people who are constantly claiming that there is no IT shortage are really just trying to keep the shortage around. They have an interest in a tight labor market. Let's face it, the more demand there is for us the more we're worth. Anyone who has experience in just about any IT field knows that they are in demand. I recently went "on the market" out of curiousity for how many other opportunities there were and was blown away by the number of calls and offers I've received. Where I work now, we just offered someone a job, who told us that was the 4th offer he had received that week alone. The bottom line is that if you honestly don't think there is a shortage, it's probably because you don't have the assets people want!
The IT industry annoyingly immature. One time there will be a heavy demand for people with particular skills and the bozos think if you work in one technology you cannot do the other. And the y wine that they cannot find enough people. There is fundamentally something wrong in the way they recruit. I was a victim of that approach. I had lot of C++ and CORBA on Solaris but one space age company put me on hold permanently telling that right now they need only JAVA people inspite of me kicking butt in their OO design interview and C++ interview. If I were to recruit for my company I look for people with lots of potential than anything else.
Me for example, I have a tough decision to make in the next month or so. I can go to GeorgiaTech and get all the benefits of a large state institute or I can go to IllinoisTech in Chicago and get the benefits of a smaller school which may mean fewer options, but at least what they do do they should do well. As opposed to the massive scale of GTech were some classes and students are bound to slip through the cracks into "flake-land." Georgia's co-op program is better known though...(this could go on for pages...) Anybody out there got an opinon/ bit of advice/ flame to share on this topic?
I am aware of the fact that most people do not put these two colleges that close to each other in ANY sort of ranking. Personally even I did not at first. However there are some interesting things about the IT industry that make this matter less. This whole set of posts has to do with people who have IT degrees but not the know-how. Such people will not have very successful careers regardless of where they get their degree. Now here is the interesting tidbit: In 1999 graduating Comp Engineers from IIT reporting an average annual salary of 45.6k, but GT graduates with the same degree reported an average starting salary that was only 45.1k. True this is not a very big difference, but the fact that the supposedly better school came out on bottom indicates that most people, while they think coming from a good school is nice, are more interested in what you learned at school, not what school you learned it at. I have heard a great deal to this effect over the last year as I searched for my own future school. Hence, while GT undeniably has better facilities, IIT has a much more attentive environment, and there are, evidently, not nearly as many freeloaders around. So what value can I attribute to all of GT's added opportunities if I find myself unable to take advantage of them?
The different quality of life I would experience at either of these two schools plays a very large role in which one choose to attend. I have visited both IIT and GT. GT for a two-hour tour and seminar deal, but IIT for an entire weekend. While at IIT I stayed in one of the frat houses, and got to experience "Greek life", IIT style. To give you an idea:
1. Dancing (surprise!)
2. Euchre, standard bet was $0.50 a game OMG!
3. N64
In addition, drinking was rather curtailed and the standard beverage was soda not beer.
However, the GT respondent has a point, due to the sheer size of GT it would be rather easy to surround myself with fellow geeks, except for one problem; I have a tolerant disposition which causes flakes, extremists and weirdoes, to seek me out and cling to me with incredible tenacity. For example, among my best friends are found: the class valedictorian (my role model), a Marxist, an anarchist, several children of Baptist missionaries (this would be less weird if I was not Roman Catholic), the only kid in the class expected to not graduate. I can just see myself "carrying" half a dozen flakes through the introductory engineering courses and into their sophomore year. I have already done this with the future dropout, and I do not look forward to doing it again. True I could cut them off, but I find that requires a sort of callousness spirit, which I proudly lack. Although, I may be forced to acquire it in the future. (and the debate roars on...)
Mostly depends on where I'm willing to work and what I'm willing to do. In this area of the south, IT jobs are pretty slim, but then again, so are firms that use a lot of IT.
So far, the major decider as to whether you can or cannot find an IT job is location. Fortunately, the US is still a relatively free country, and you can move. Personally, I'd rather stay in the area I am now. I took my current job at about 2/3 of the average salary so I could stay in this area.
If you're willing to move to where the job is you'll have no problems, but if you live in an area where IT jobs are tight, good luck. Don't forget to factor in cost of living when you're looking at all the money you could be making in San Jose though
Remember a programming language is not a religion, it's a tool. The problem is when the only tool people have been exposed to is a hammer (or C/C++/VB/Whatever) then they think everything is a nail.
For our company VB was a move up! Before the current IS department was in place everything (and I mean everything) was done in Access. Talk about crap.
Personally, I would love for us to move to C++ for some of our apps, but frankly we don't have the people (or office space to hire more people) to give us the extra time it would take. Fortunately, most of our request are for simple database access stuff that VB is pretty good for.
Contrary to popular PHB belief all people who didn't go to college are not uneducated, we're merely BS free
I was always curious about that shortage. I've been seeking employment for 20 years. I've written bios's, compilers, assemblers, debuggers, a 32-bit operating system, a high-level language (to hit the highlights). My system compiler compiles in less time than it takes to just make a copy of the source. I didn't read the Dragon book or anything; I invented everything as I went along. In hardware I've built tons of stuff including a Multibus controller without data, just by scoping the signals. I've reverse engineered binaries to repair them and port them to different systems. There is no employment opportunity for those with 160 IQ and can do anything. My employment history was in nuclear underground testing, so when I apply someplace they say they don't have a nuclear department. I never touched anything nuclear, I created all types of gadgetry, electronic & otherwise. My daily product was things never before done by human hands. Can they use someone like this? Obviously not.
It's not hard to find a job now, but it's
hard to find a GOOD one.
The dotcoms have LOWERED the standards. They've enlarged the eligibility pool by hiring people without degrees, etc. They'll claim that they have to....it's nonsense.
It still takes a while to find a good job. Having just been through a dotcom, I'll never work for another one again! They'll hire just about anybody. We had plenty of folks working there who, despite being at several other dotcoms prior, NEVER ACTUALLY SHIPPED ANY PRODUCTS. People are making a living by going from company
to company, leaving at the slightest hint of trouble and NEVER ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING.
--- Speaking only for myself,
It makes a big difference if you are in college to LEARN rather than just pursue a degree.
You pursue a CS degree to learn how a computer works and the theories behind computing (plus getting an on-campus job troubleshooting or repairing computers part-time can help even a clueless CS major get some experience). Essentially with a CS degree you learn logical thought and problem solving, similar to pursuing a degree in math. This education is intended to allow students to be more efficient and be able to solve problems by providing them with a good background on the process of computing.
Yes, it's true that people who pursue other unrelated degrees will often get jobs working with computers and be better at their jobs than some people with CS degrees. The fundamental difference is often that people who haven't studied computing will know HOW to do something corectly, and maybe even efficiently, but they often won't know specifically WHY a bug or a problem occurs because they haven't studied ISA or OS architecture. They don't know that JAVA passes variables by reference and C passes variables by value, or they found out on their own (and i AM big fan of reading to teach yourself) instead of having a professor show them and explain WHY this is so.
The WHY of how things work can be learned without a degree in CS or engineering, just as anything else. But what seperates a degree in computing from working in the field of computing is this background knowledge. It's true that a lot of people will never use a lot of what they learn in college unless the pursue a post-graduate degree, or a highly-skilled job developing this knowledge. What a college degree does do is teach people to think for themselves while giving them a background of knowledge with which to start a career. You get what you make out of your own education. Enough rambling from me...
void theoremProver(){
print "this product is correct"
}
Mostly everything is close together. I've walked to work every day, during three jobs and two apartments. Being able to walk as transportation is another thing about New York that is hard to find anywhere else. $5 will get you about 15-20 blocks (3/4 mile to 1 mile) with a tip, but that is easily a feasible distance to live from work. I know people who live two blocks from work.
I disagree. I would be more inclined to say i, as in the square root of -1.
Good point, but basically what I think people don't like is the idea of a bunch of foreign workers stealing their jobs. I'm content with my salary, but from what I keep hearing, it's way below the national average. It pays my bills and I own a house. I like where I work, and I like the people I work with. I left for a year and eventually came back (for more money, hehe). Basically, this company couldn't find anyone to replace me. They hired someone and paid him a lot more (from what I've been told) and he got some things done, but quality suffered. Lots of clueless people are jumping into IT, that wouldn't even know how to code a simple database entry screen with anything other than VBA, yet they are still getting paid good salaries, because computer programming is all "magic" to most of the people that determine salaries. VBA vs C++, there just different languages right? Uhhh... No...
I am a grad student in CS who has been looking for a coding job for 8 months...WTF. I have no real coding exp outside school and for fun. No one takes a chance on untested coders even if it is their life dream. So we are relegated to being sys admins on NT networks. Every time I hear about this shortage it makes me want to puke. All of the hiring companies want 6 years of XML with an additional 10 years of Java expierience or something rediculous like that.
Most of the profit in a company goes to the owners and investors of a company. As an employee, you are just an expense that management will try to minimize. Becoming an owner is where we should be putting our effort into. Not into quickly obsoleted skills that third world programmers are quickly learning. I think that programming and IT support tasks will go to low wage countries much quicker that most people expect.
The other thing is that we are shutting out thousands of potential programmers who could enter into a test/training program that selects the "brightest" and prepares them for entry-level jobs ... instead, these jobs are farmed out overseas to foreigners who market themselves as "experienced" when the entire basis of their experience is solely education ... education alone may be insufficient then add in the communications factor ...
:)
Personally I think companies will realize the problem with this approach. Foreign programmers might be cheap, but so is the quality of work. As an experiment, my company farmed out some relatively simple C++ work to a couple of Indian programmers who have regular jobs with the Indian branch of a major U.S. technology company. When the code was delivered, it was full of bugs. It took me almost as long to fix all the problems as the time to do the job right from scratch! (Plus everyone at work had to put up with my bitching while fixing the @#$! bugs) Their delivered source code clearly demonstrated that while they knew the C++ syntax, they did not understand object-oriented design at all!
Needless to say, we are not about to try it again any time soon....
As far as I am concerned, there are two kinds of workers in the technology field: the talented kind and the worthless kind. Care to guess which category Mr. Richard Ellis (the author of the article) falls into? ;-) People who complain about the short life cycles of their skill set should definitely NOT be in this field. I work in this field because things progress constantly and there is always something new. As matter of fact, I refuse to take a job that doesn't involve something I haven't done before. As to U.S. colleges not teaching the latest and "greatest" programming language, that's just fine. Programming languages and OSes are just tools anyway. The important knowledge is the basic concept and theory of computing and problem solving skills. When I was in school, most upper level CS courses involve very little actual coding. Most problems are discussed in pseudo code or even essays. The professors expected people to have acquired the mechanics of coding in lower level courses and did not want to waste time in the details. This is the right approach. I learned the principle of protocol layering and basic concepts of the TCP/IP stack in school. When I actually worked with a TCP/IP stack for the first time on the job, it took me less than a week to port the stack with a telnet shell and tftp application onto my embedded platform. As others have pointed out, there _IS_ a shortage of talented technology workers whom companies are busting their asses trying to hire. Heck, I am not looking for a job but I get offers once every couple of months. On the other hand, there are also plenty of the worthless kind around just to make identifying the talented ones a little harder....
I have to agree that this "shortage" is an artificial one. And yes, foreign workers figure into to the equation heavily ...
As a real life example, I am a mainframe programmer still hacking away on the big iron (IBM - MVS) ... I have some projects on the side but the bread and butter is still the mainframe stuff ...
Now, the move has been on for some time (not just at the company I currently consult at, but others too that I have worked in the past and other sites here local that fellow employees/consultants are/have been employed at) to "resource" out all support and development programming work to India - it is CHEAPER, CHEAPER by a factor of 50% or more (well, probally not in real terms after all the intangibles are taken into account but cheaper in the bean counter executive perspective ...) ... the wish is to have nothing but business analysts in the employ of the company but outsource the rest to Indians either here imported or on site in India along with company DP employees stationed there also ...
The company (a large charge card company for which whose system I support processes millions of card charges a day ...) pledges that employee jobs are "safe", but they still admit that employees may have to "retrain" into more business oriented jobs ...
I have nothing against individuals who study and work hard in technical pursuits and apply their craft competently ... but as mentioned in other posts, the "company" holds the reins of the H1B worker pretty tightly - it does not make for a "free" market of supply and demand ...
The other thing is that we are shutting out thousands of potential programmers who could enter into a test/training program that selects the "brightest" and prepares them for entry-level jobs ... instead, these jobs are farmed out overseas to foreigners who market themselves as "experienced" when the entire basis of their experience is solely education ... education alone may be insufficient then add in the communications factor ...
Another big impact is the downward effect upon salaries and rates for computer programmers ... the influx of a "captive" labor force pushes the rates down - this in turn, leads to the fact that our best and brightest (US, Canada) now elect to be lawyers and MBAs as opposed to engineers and computer programmers - supply and demand indeed - programmers in the 60s and 70s made princely wages, rates that make the present wage and salary marks appear as paltry ...
My firm has many programmers "on the bench" - while, at the same time, the marketing and recruiting people are being queried multiple times a day to sponsor an "H1B" Visa canidate that can be placed immediately at a local business site - why is that? Granted, the mainframe world differs from the PC world, but again I think it would be even easier to find native Americans that can do the pee cee weenie stuff ...
As to the argument that the foreign worker is paid more - maybe that is true in some cases but the general case does not bear that out ... take a look at the hardcopy ComputerWorld and look at the careers section - look away from the flashy ads touting all of the big pimps and look at the hordes of little print lines asking for Masters degree, experience, all for 25K a year! Those are there to meet the requirement that the "job cannot be filled by an American".
This topic touches a button with me ... again, let me state that it is not the foreign worker that I am opposed against but the notion of a restricted labor market - it is funny that big business is all for free market capitalism when it comes to laws and legislation that favor them economically but would like to restrict markets on the other hand concerning labor ...
My 2 lines of code ...
AZspot
2 huge problems I've come across: 1) bias against older workers. Not me personally (not THAT old, yet) but I have seen it. 2) stupid company rules that caps pay so you can never make more than your manager. This is so short-sided. Companies want Bill Joy to come write Java for them but he can't be paid more than his 1st level, running-out-the-clock, nice-guy-but-hangs-out-at-the-water-cooler-all-day manager. Yeah right.
I could never be hired at the site I contract/temp for now because I probably make $10k more than the guy I work for. So they are paying probably double what they could get me for to my company/pimp. Insane.
In summary: there is a shortage of younger, experienced IT workers willing to make less than 1st level managers.
Very good comments. I especially like No. 5. Perspective's needed, though. Hey, it is a huge industry and there are a whole lot of folks out there who are reasonably satisfied. IT is not a field where any one description fits everybody. It's too big and too diverse for one-size-fits-all characterizations to work (and that, in turn, is a good reason to be very careful about reading too much into my take on the career situation in the DDJ piece or the original IT Workforce projects). The practice of not counting people who have gotten ANY kind of work as unemployed in their actual main field did NOT originate with the Clinton administration. Unemployment has been counted this way forever, mainly because the Powers That Be (and Republican pols in particular) are not willing to spend what it would take to do better. The U.S. statistical system has been poorly supported for 20 years and our intelligence shows it. Yeah, there are a LOT of people out there who are not counted as unemployed but probably ought to be at least flagged as underemployed, that is, like programmers who are working as clerks or worse because they can't find appropriate jobs. Some of those people have posted accounts of their situations here. Bob Rivers estimates that "true" unemployment for technical people is about 3.3 times the reported figures. For the benefit of anybody who's delved this far into all these comments, two more points. First, I think these comments are a gold mine for anybody interested in the career scene. Many of them are really good. Second, this whole issue is gonna come up before the Congress again this Spring. The focus will be on foreign temps but I think this just might be an opportunity to inject a push for a movement to get employers to get more serious about the need their people have to keep up their skills. As far as I can tell that is the most critical issue that might actually be able to be improved. The number one problem programmers face is the need to constantly keep up with emerging tools while still putting in long hours on current technology. If you agree, you ought to start thinking about ways to put pressures on your Congressperson, because deals are going to get cut with industry and better employer practices might be able to be traded for increased access to all those people from outside the USA.
But it seems to me that you wouldn't consider me for a second, because I don't have EXACTLY the skill set that you want. Nevermind that with my history, anybody with a dullard's amount of brains would figure that I could swiftly move in and do the job. A dullard's amount of brains don't appear to be in the requirements document for personnel departments :-{.
(Note -- I am NOT looking for a job, I am quite happy with my current one... I was merely noting what I saw as the biggest problem facing job seekers: inflexible employers who want a particular set of 'easy to define' skills, rather than valuing 'hard to measure' skills like flexibility, intelligence, and productivity).
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
I'm not looking for a job, BTW, so don't even look for my resume. I'm quite happy with Phoenix AZ and I'm quite happy with my co-workers, who in my opinion are doing a damned good job even when I disagree with some of their decisions. I'll point out that your "must jell well with the other people you are working with" in reality translates to "must be like me". Of course, I must admit that I'm no different... when I'm making hiring recommendations, I'm looking for people who are somewhat offbeat but in a positive way, ability to quote Monty Python optional, and I'm looking for people who I feel can learn anything quickly, even if they don't have the exact skill set for the job. Gosh, people like me :-). But the point is that I realize this, and you, apparently, don't, somehow believing that everybody must be just like you in order to get along. I do believe that there is a value in a diverse workplace. I might not be on the same wavelength as the ex-Air Force officer down the hall (I'm somewhat liberal, he's a staunch Jerry Falwell Republican, I'm the eccentric professor in wrinkled clothing, he's spit and polish etc.), but I do believe he brings something to the company of value, and I don't bother trying to convert him to supporting Al Gore (grin).
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
As for VB apps and $45k or more for new hires, it depends on what part of the country you're in. In the Silicon Valley that would be starvation wages :-). In Shreveport, Louisiana, that would be more than the CEO of the company. I do know that one of our recent new hires (well, "recent" == "last June") said that most of his new-grad friends got a job for between $40k and $45K per year, this being in Phoenix. But they were COBOL/data processing types going out into the cusp of the Y2K-fix job market too... I doubt they'd have gotten that much for doing VB!
One thing I have discovered, BTW, is that there seems to be little correlation between high college grades and "hacker talent". Most hard core geeky types apparently prefer to be hacking on their computers rather than studying :-}. But you wouldn't know this from the recruiting practices of many major companies (such as Microsoft), most of which go almost entirely upon grades for their pre-screening of new grads.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
A Temp Worker: $25,000.
An MSCE NT Professional: $40,000.
A Professional UNIX Admin: $60,000.
An Admin who actually knows what that big red button does: Priceless.
Yep, there's a shortage. That's why I'm not worried about a job.
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Have you been in a position where you're looking to hire people? I have. We resorted to foreigners because it is _VERY_ hard to find great programmers out there.
Cheap H1B my ass. The INS requires you to prove that you've looked in the local market for someone to fill the position first, and even then you have to pay slightly above the going average salary for the area.
I just recently accepted an H1B job offer in New York (I'm from Canada). The offer was more than generous, and the employer definitely does not have me by the balls. If I don't like it, I'll pack up and drive back to Canada. That's key when you're an H1-B: you can't ever presume that you'll stay in the US. You need a saftey net that will allow you to return home.
And sure, getting out of a lease is annoying, but the signing bonus at my next position would more than make up for that.
-Stu
Given the rate of turnover in this industry (I've never worked for the same company longer than a year, ever, and I get the sense that my experience is typical of younger employees in the market), I'm not remotely surprised that lobbying for more H1B visas is the #1 legislative priority for American technology companies. That's why you constantly hear the wailing about a shortage of tech workers - there's a real agenda being pushed in furthering that notion.
For the record, I feel I should note that I personally oppose all restrictions on the movement of humans across national borders. I'm no xenophobe, I'm just making an observation about our present situation.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
I got a job last week in a restaurant because some guy saw my [geek.] shirt from copyleft.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
You write: Personally, i think the shortage is not of IT professionals, but of competent, well-trained ones.
It goes without saying that the only people that are of immediate highly productive use in an enterprise are competent, experienced ones ("well-trained" on its own doesn't cut it), simply because the pace of development is far too rapid for companies to be able to carry out their plans by training up raw recruits. It takes years to create a top expert, and the ratio of success to failure is low. Most people end up being barely passable, definitely not the kind you'd want as head designers of anything important.
Having said that, beggers can't be choosers, and alas, while the IT shortage is a matter of some debate in the US (apparently), it is most definitely not a matter of debate in Europe. We're desperate for people in all Internet-related areas except Microsoft, and currently it seems ludicrously difficult to find anyone on the market with even the most basic appreciation of elementary things, say port numbers in TCP. I'm fed up of interviewing guys whose idea of fixing a problem is to phone up support.
So, if you're a real techie and can't find a job in the US and have a means of entry into some European country (especially the UK, please!), then come and offer us your services. The pay is good too, especially if you're skilled enough to be a freelance contractor.
(Maybe if enough folks come over, I could get more sleep.)
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
No shortage of IT workers?
All I can say is, "Shh!".
Don't say these things out loud...
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
- Jeff
Don't get me wrong, I'm very much of a market realist. The fact of the matter is that good IT can save a company a great deal of money (not to mention boost earnings). My problem, however, is less a matter of the price being paid for IT, then it is simply utter lack of available talent. The talent that can usually be had by most companies is mediocre, and the price paid is steep. I certainly take issue with anyone who would say that IT talent simply isn't an issue, that it's being fabricated by companies so they can reduce their IT costs by bringing in help from the 3rd world. Clearly when one looks at the avg. IT salary since the growth of "tech" visas, it speaks very much contrary to this fact.
Furthermore, although I believe in paying what the market dictates, I don't necessarily believe this is ultimately healthy for the economy. While many large companies can afford to hire very expensive IT, most startup companies (except for some of these dotcoms rolling in VC money, but that's more of an abberation...) are being priced out by larger companies because they can not afford these kind of cash outflows. Simply put, this has adverse effects on the economy. It seems particularly silly when the US has a very backwards immigration and visa policy, that effectively only lets in nominal levels of skilled (or even semi-skilled) labor, but hundreds of thousands of unskilled people. I can think of many companies that are desperate for good IT, yet they just can't get it, even though there are millions of highly skilled IT people outside the US who're willing to work at rates they can afford. Simply put, these costs (but more importantly the shortage) are needlessly artificially high because of protectionist and backwards immigration laws.
The bottom line: If you see the great value of good IT and realize the rarity of it in corporate America, it's hard to argue economically that it would hurt our country to allow more (but not necessarily completely open) talented workers in.
I was able to get a decent job as a systems programmer for Penn State while going to school part time here. I do not have my degree (and when I do, it will be in Econ, I don't know why) but I do have some experence and I pick up stuff quickly.
It's not a linux job, there is no chance of getting in on a multi-million $ IPO, but I get to play with a s/390 mainframe and I'm now able to eat (something I sorely missed as a student)
Finkployd
It's not hard to find a job - If you know what you're doing. I last re-meplyed myself about three months ago, and was getting 4-5 contacts a day over a 2 week period with 3 years of unix experience.
:P
I dunno what the market is like for recent graduates.. It can't possibly be more difficult. My two best friends got geek jobs without CS degrees, and without any real work experience, and both for good money.
But, like everything else, it depends on where you are and who you know. We're all in NC, so the labor market is sweeeeet. I think any metropolitan area is going to have a need for plenty of geeks.
And, warm bodies with 'experience' are never hard to find, but experience (time on a job with a CS sort of title) is no real metric of ability. It all depends on the person - some people work for 10 years at a job and only pick up the minimum to get through it. It would take five of those people to do the work of one person with actual skill.
YMMV.
--
blue
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
Some CS curriculums really aim for that: they expose students to different subjects and languages in a seemingly haphazard way. That's the way to go. Others, of course, pick some kind of stream-lined path around what sells (Windows, VC++) or what is in vogue (Ada or Java or ... to the exclusion of anything else). That doesn't prepare the students for the crazy and ever changing real world.
The TOP TEN reasons why business says there is an IT labor shortage are:
Anyone who has taken Economics 101 knows (if you didn't sleep through the course) the laws of supply and demand. When the demand goes up and/or the supply goes down, the prices go up. Correspondingly when the supply is up and the demand is down, prices go down. When the unemployment is high, business is happy because salaries and wages stay low. People are willing to work for less when the alternative is no work at all. Business fights to prevent efforts by the government to raise any salaries or wages, as well as fights efforts to impose more benefits like health care. Business insists that economics are at work and things should be left alone. Turn the tables on business and give it a situation where there are indeed fewer people, which would cause salaries and wages to go up, then business suddenly doesn't want to play by the same rules, and wants the government to step in and change things to their benefit.
I suggest that the real problem in the USA is a shortage of competent management.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Reading the article is very informative:
Overall, we have more people that CAN do IT, but many aren't or are too limited or in the wrong spot.
Me, I get plenty of calls a month. I'm 32 (supposedly over-the-hill), and going fine. My guess is there's not a gap statistically - but there's a gap in will and standards.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
I have to agree with the earlier post about location location location. It may be tough to find an IT job in Philly, but here in Ottawa, Ontario (Canada) its a snap.
I have just started with a new company(after fielding a few offers and at least 1 headhunter calling me per day for a month) and am working with a client in Kanata, the "Silicon Valley North." Out there comapies like Newbridge, Nortel, Mitel and Lockeed Martin have giant banners on their building asking, nay, begging for skilled workers. Nortel actually has a store in the mall across from their HQ rented out as a recruiting centre - like the Army! Newbridge (who is hiring again after being bought by Actel of France) laid off hundreds of workers a few months ago during restructuring. The competion for labour was so fierce that Nortel had recruiters in sandwhich boards getting candidates outside their AGM in the Corel Centre (arena where the Senetors play). On the day of the layoffs, they rented a Greyhound bus, which waited outside of the Newbridge offices for the laid off workers to be escorted out. HR people then brought them onto the bus, interviewed them and offered them positions then and there.
Sounds like an IT labour shortage to me up here...
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
So if you were putting together your resume today, would you still put MSCE down, or leave it off?
I think the original poster has reached the point where they see MSCE on a resume as being almost at the level of putting down Basic or Pascal - it makes you question more the wisdom of the person who would choose to present that as something they were proud enough of to include on a one page summary of who they are!
When I look at resumes, I look to them to tell me what the applicant has been proud of, and what they are interested in working on in the future.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'd say that demand for people with actual CS degrees is at an all time high - I hardly ever see resumes from people with a CS degree and am very excited to see that - we just interviewed two CS grads where I work and made them both offers.
These people had also been just doing stuff on the side in thier room - I think that real interest like that will always show, and make you very appealing to people at any company with half a brain.
Apart from CS knowledge the ability to communciate well is really important, and you seem fine in that respect as well - I wouldn't worry at all!
Good luck, and enjoy your career. I know I have!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Getting an MCSE has nothing to do with writing sample code OR answering algorithm questions. MCSE's are not programmers. You should be asking them how to set up multiple domains, WINS, DHCP, how a client gets authenticated etc etc. If you're looking for sample code from MCSE's you're barking up the wrong tree. Try MCSD's.
At my company I seem to do all of the above. Granted there are others who seem to do some programing or some system admin in addition to their normal functions, but very few who do both, plus can be trusted to open up a machine and install/configure hardware (pick a Unix flavor OR winNT), or do basic database administration, excluding for a moment web-design (html & javascript) which is mostly outside of what we normally do.
I think the shortage may not be so much people with a few skills, so much as people who:
1) have a variety of skills and experiance and can be thrown into various 'ad-hock' situations.
2) can actually learn and expand their skill set relatively painlessly (for their employer) as needed.
and 3) can actually interact with other people (PHB, other programmers, clients).
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
I'm sorry, I wrote the comment at work. In fact, I think this is the first time I'm posting to /. and not at work. Believe me, posting while working is not the best thing - my job frustrates me considerably.
:)
:) .sig: File not found.
I'll be more precise, although I doubt you'll respond to it since as an AC it's harder to find your comment amidst the myriad of others
You're right. I didn't intend to insult VB, nor DLL's in general, nor any of another million things.
I'm a rather skilled VB programmer (or at least, like to think so). I like the language, and the RAD features. What my comment intended to ennunciate is that my job has been fucked over by those who came before me, who didn't have the skills but were able to present themselves as skilled.
Thus we have about 40 different DLL's to do things in the most complicated when a straight path would do better that crash constantly, but we don't have time or resources to fix them since we're constantly running prod support in addition to development. It's as much a management problem as a coding problem.
I have to say for a project that requires or would be suited to RAD, VB is quite decent. But, if you are skilled at VB as you say, I doubt highly your saying the language is decent.
It's currently at version 6, and about to hop to 7. The IDE is buggy as hell (ever missed a reference in the project file? sit around for about ten minutes for it to open so you can fix it). Optional arguments can't be user-defined types. There's no hierarchical class structure. Forms can't have user-defined properties. Etc, etc, etc. I don't mean to be bashing VB - it has it's place and uses.
We run an embedded system for computer-based testing.
I would be greatly interested in any reason you had that would explain why we should be running said system in Windows, using VB, with an Access backend. I can't personally think of any. And that's not a flame.
*sigh* I'd much rather go for C/C++ with a linux server, have the testing stations on X servers and link off the main server - no more DLL problems on each machine, etc, etc, etc. We have a sick amount of DLL's, and every time we change one thing we have to recompile 90% of them, or else we get the wonderful old "ActiveX Component can't create object". Helpful error, that.
So I guess this rant is both that VB allows people without skills to more easily foist themselves upon unknowing suits, and that VB is, while a decent RAD language, not suited to the markets the M$ targets it to (mission critical applications and doing "hey, we've integrated VB with IIS! run everything in VB").
Anyway.
That's enough from here
ls:
ls:
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore?
The "shortage" is really companies wanting to have extra people to devote to growth rather than simple maintenance. They also aren't willing to pay market rate for the skillsets they need.
The recession in the early '90s made companies used to having a hundred overqualified candidates willing to work for peanuts, and now that the situation's reversed, these corporations are whining about having to take what they can get.
Any company who looks at the payscale for the position they're trying to fill and starts offering a salary at least at the middle of that scale rather than the bottom will have no problem getting the people they're looking for. Once they start valuing their IS employees as more than mere maintenance crew / union laborers, they'll find themselves having an easier time both hiring people and keeping them.
-jpowers
-jpowers
The reason there are so many H1 visa people and foreigners in the IT business is because they are often the only people available. Here in the US, very few people are getting 4-year degrees in CIS, and there arn't that many self-taught competent engineers. Things are different in India, for example. In India, getting a CIS degree is in the same class as getting a law or medical degree in the US. There's an overabundance of lawyers in this country but very few people graduating with CIS degrees.
In almost every company I have worked most of the engineers are from India and a lesser extent from Taiwan and China. As a senior engineer who has interviewed many people, it is quite difficult finding talented programmers. It is even more difficult in that in the networking sector I work in most of the work is in embedded systems which requires far more skill than writing standard Unix or Windows programs. For one thing, a bad pointer will likely require a reboot since there's usually no safety net and the debugging tools are often quite limited (and very often home-grown).
Sure, anyone can implement a linked list, but there arn't many people who can implement interrupt handlers or use a logic analyzer to track down a system hang.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
Form the PHB perspective, sometimes you want to grow your development team for the future and you don't have any immediate need for skills that aren't currently coved by the existing team. So you find someone who is generally good (smart, problem solver, quick learner, hard worker, good communication, plays well w/ others etc.) and the past experience need not be a perfect match to some skill list.
OTOH, sometimes you desperately need someone who is an *expert* in some specifc thing and you don't have time to wait for someone already on your team to gain expertice (i.e. your database guru with an MS and 10 years experince just quit and the jr. database guys are good but they aren't gonna aquire 10 years Oracle kung foo in 6 months).
Most situations probably fall somewhere between these 2 extremes.
Of course, if a company has the size and the cluefulness, they try to
While dealing with clueless HR is annoying ("says here you've used HPUX, Solaris and RedHat, but do you have UNIX experience, I really need someone with UNIX experience" True Story!), in some situations the job description is narrow for a good reason.
Additionally, it's good to bear in mind that job listings are brodcast further and further over time (company corkboard -> newspaper) and the signal to noise ratio increases accordingly so a response to newspaper ad is gonna be screened more anally than a response to a personal recomendation. How would anyone deal with 500+ resumes? _What_Color_Is_Your_Parachute_?_ covers this angle well and is a good resouce for anyone who is job hunting.
- bridgette
I have serious doubts about any company that uses headhunters to find fresh graduates. After all, they can interface directly with the univerity career centers and not have to pay 30-100% of a years salary in commission. Because of the prohibative cost, most places will only use headhunters when they are having trouble finding the right person. When the pool of potentially qualified people is extremly small (CEO, expert in some really specific area, etc.) this is quite understandable. When the pool is really large (anyone with a BS in X) this seems very odd.
IMHO, the best plan is to use any resorces that your school has to offer (a lot of places even do on campus interviews), read _What_Color_Is_Your_Parachute_?_ and research companies and their openings on their homepages.
- bridgette
... on many different variables;
1. Exactly what skills you have.
2. What region are you located.
3. How much pay you are looking for.
4. Who you know and when.
5. Luck.
6. What non-pay benifits are do you want.
7. How much real world work experience do you have.
Number of workers in a specific job category is, in the end, just one factor in you finding a job.
I'm sure that there is some baker, tailor and candlestick maker out there which always employeed in his/her field.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Come to Boston/Cambridge/Rt128. If you can tolerate working for suits and phbs, you can have all the money you want.
----------------------------------------------
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
I love technology. There will never be too few jobs in the computing industry. Most of our work is creating bugs. Somebody has to fix those bugs, right? And test. And do it all over again. It's a self-sustaining system. Probably doesn't even need customers. Wooo!
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Anyone can pass a test. All you have to do is memorize a book. What happens when you want them to actually apply that knowledge?
... it is considered a graduate level course by the proff teaching it, yet this guy still didn't have a clue how to do sockets.
Where I'm going to school, I'm constantly shocked by the number of people I have to work with in groups that <i>do not know what they are doing</i>.
Yesterday I had to teach a guy how to use sockets for a group project in "Distrubuted Operating Systems" (we're creating a system of 5 replicated values, using 2 different methods of transaction propogation). This is the sequal to the Operating Systems class
I've encountered people that don't know what "return" does in a function! (They "passed" the course that was supposed to teach them the stuff).
Point being, yeah the paper means that they've gone through it, but did they just remember the stuff for a test, or do they really know how to use it?
That is sorta understandable.. They've done some interesting studies that the top programmers can sometimes be 10x-100x better and more productive than an average programmer. They might not write as many lines of code as the average programmer, but their code is clearer, more bug free, simpler, or more elegant. And given the cost of maintance combined with the cost of bugs, that number is VERY easy to understand.
:)
And the rarity of people in that class is also easy to understand. You don't join that class by learning C on your own. Nor by having an MCSE. You learn it by loving computer science, knowing the fundamentals, and gaining experience.
Remember Sturgens law: 90% of everything sucks.
Hmm. NT. Halon. NT. Halon. NT needing a halon system to put out fires.
Although I know quite well these are implemented for any hardware massed in a small room, somehow I just can't stop smiling. =)
(And yes, unix admins like breathing. in most cases. i've known a few that could live off the supply of hot air in their inflated heads. =D)
Anyone have similar/different experiences?
Want to work at Transmeta? Hedgefund.net? AT&T?
Can your IM do this?
Those that I know in the tri-state area say that getting an IT job there is incredibly easy, and I believe it. A simple search on dice will show you that - there are SO MANY jobs available it's not even funny (at least not to be because I don't have the money to reloacate).
It all comes down to the area you're in. It looks like NYC and Cali may in fact have a shortage of workers, because their tech economies are booming, and there are more businesses than workers. In places like upstate NY, where the economy is still sub-par, it's the other way around.
Isn't that how unemployment works in every industry?
Man's unique agony as a species consists in his perpetual conflict between the desire to stand out and the need to blend in.
72656B636148206C72655020726568746F6E41207473754A
I hate Dice, because the only people that see your resume are recruiters. Recruiters who know nothing about the industry, or the job, other than the list of "requirements" that their client has given them.
I was turned down for a "web developer" job because I didn't have enough CRYSTAL REPORTS EXPERIENCE!! Can you believe that? Sheesh... okay, give me two days to look at it and I'll know your stupid CRYSTAL REPORTS. Unfortunately, it's hard to say that kind of thing in an interview.
I think in your case, you'd be hard pressed to find a job in a company that specializes in IT. Me too, apparently. Thus the apparent shortage.
But I can tell you that there are industries struggling to find IT people-- industries you've never even considered.
I work at a poultry company. I've seen my company hire morons because they can't find real applicants. Another problem is the just-in-it-for-the-money people looking for the "fast track IT job" won't even interview here, because it's a poultry company.
No, you won't get the highest of salaries (I make $41k a year, which actually isn't too bad for a single guy) but you will get that elusive Job Experience thing. I don't think anybody here has a CS degree, although at least half have a 4-year degree in something. I have a BS in physics, and another programmer has a degree in chemistry.
I'm learning a bunch of stuff that you can only get with experience, as opposed to schooling. Supply chain? EDI? Barcoding? As well as the underlying database technology, with some web development on the side (ASP). This is the kind of stuff that (hopefully) will be very favorable to a career in B2B (buzzword: Business to Business) E-commerce. Despite what you may have heard, the B2B boom hasn't happened yet, but it's starting to. Why? All the "real" B2B is still happening via good old EDI (875->880 UCS transaction sets, anyone?) which has been around for at least 20 years. That will change, but it won't be going heavily on the internet for another few years. This is very, very different from the "e-commerce" buzzword as most people know it. Actually seeing the internet used in the supply chain is still a ways off, even though the technology is there, which is why now's the time.
So what am I rambling about?
Find an ESTABLISHED INDUSTRY, one that has been around for a while and thus knows how to hire and grow employees. Many of them are just starting to grow their IT departments, and to explore what they can do with this newfangled "internet thing" and are looking for people to do it. Talk to them directly. Search them out. Look at packaging companies, manufacturing-- especially the food industry. Find out where they are headquartered. Generally they'll be hiring people with diverse knowledge as opposed to a lot of knowledge in one area-- i.e., you'll be wearing a lot of hats.
The manufacturing industry as it applies to IT isn't a cash cow (we'll never hire a $80k network admin, don't need to) but it's a definite get-your-foot-in-the-door experience builder for something much more lucrative later.
Somebody who is just looking for an immediate, high-paying IT job isn't really thinking strategically or long-term, and will often be disappointed.
-CausticPuppy "Of all the people I know, you're certainly one of them." -Somebody I don't know
...I preferred people WITHOUT comp sci degrees. 'Scuse me while I don my flame-proof suit. OK. I have found through the years that people with CS degrees tend to have much more limited outlooks on problems than those from other fields. I want people with real-world knowledge and personal depth, not people who relate mostly to computers. I've seen great programmers with math degrees, degrees in the sciences, and even in English. Naturally, I want these people to have had some cs training so they understand algorithms, but the most important factors for programming success are native intelligence and a willingness to always be learning new things.
I do agree with you on certification. It's mostly useless.
No sig? Sigh...
The availability heuristic is a poor method of proof. While you may have never ever heard of such an employer, you may be surprised to read that I have. MSCE's have a bad reputation at certain companies: as another poster put it, they are stereotyped. At many of the companies I've worked at, they have felt burned by trusting the certification only to hire several vastly unqualified workers in a row. There is often a period of backlash where anyone who is certified is disqualified from the position immediately. This often results in the hiring of a competant person because they are looking at the person's other qualities instead of just the certification. This rewards the belief in the stereotype and perpetuates it to other managers through anecdotal evidence.
I must admit that I am nervous when I see MSCE on a resume. It is really how that particular thing is displayed, though. If it is listed as an important aspect of the person's skills (near the top of a skills section or if the certification section is above the skills section), then I become questioning of the candiate's actual skillset. If it is more subdued, then I with either not notice it or understand that certain things are put on a resume to pass through the "HR filters". The real difference is int one case you are selling yourself as a skilled person, int the other you are selling the MSCE program. Since I, and many others, are disbelievers of the program, it cannot be a large foundation of your sell to me.
-no broken link
A post-secondary degree is not a guarantee for a job, certainly, but it can be an important asset in a candidate, depending upon the post-secondary institute and courses taken. The fact of the matter is that to get a worthwhile degree, you must solve problems in a wide variety of domains that you would have otherwise not have even bothered to look at. This makes the candidate more well rounded. Of course, actual workforce experience in a domain may make a candidate more appealing for a particular task (i.e. a contract postition), but when hiring for versatility (i.e. a perminant employee position), a candidate needs a lot of experience to make up for a lack of degree. Even self study does not mak up for it because, as I bolded above, a degree will force you into problems and domains you would not bother to look at.
-no broken link
Personally, I don't think finding a job in IT is at all difficult. That is if you're not looking to do web-design. People like that are a dime a dozen because it's something you can learn by just sitting on your computer all day, picking up on little details of web design. Granted you probably won't pick up Java or JavaScript or etc..., but with the overwhelming number of books that teach Java or JavaScript or whatever these too are easy to learn. However, I'm a Junior IT major who just recently got a job at an insurance company making good money working on web design upkeep and development. I had no competition, at least none that I knew of, and they didn't have to think it over, I was offered the job the same day. I think the problem is with computer majors not knowing how to present themselves to the interviewers, i.e. because they sit at a computer all day programming they have little to no people skills and that's the main thing that employers first see when you interview.
So if CS or IT majors are finding it hard to find the job of their dreams maybe they should quit playing Baldur's Gate or EverQuest all day and have some real human to human interaction. Just a thought...
Kate
That's funny, I know lots of people who make more than 60k..... I hope they enjoy their current jobs then, because if the market gets flooded with qualified 60k workers, and then they decide to change jobs, it might be a tad bit harder to find an equivalent salary elsewhere. No need to sneer. I'm not saying more visas is better or worse. I'm simply pointing out the economics of the situation. With 4 years military, a CS degree, and 2 years of unix experience, I sure didn't have anyone banging down my door last October. I feel the shortage is exaggerated.
--
-Kahuna Burger
...will work for Chick tracts...
Working in Silicon Valley, I've experienced the completely rabid search for IT people first hand. From both sides. There's definitely a shortage, but it's not clear cut, and it's not across the board.
When I was looking for a new job 6 months ago, I hadn't realized that there's a distinct shortage of *nix competent people. Being a sysadmin, the second I put out my resume, I got swamped with calls. But I know of other people who live in the M$ world who barely got any calls at all when they started a job search.
Now I'm trying to get more staff to fill in positions for the company I got a job with. It's REALLY DIFFICULT. We get tons of resumes, and interview dozens of people. But none of them are competent. I've seen resumes that would make you think someone is a sysadmin god, and when they're sitting in the interview, they don't know the name of HP's flavor of unix. Even though it's on their resume!
So no, there's no shortage of IT people. But there's a severe shortage of competent IT people.
"Suppose you were an idiot..... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeate myself."
the job shortage is a myth created so the larger companies can bring in pros from overseas and have them work here.
some of the russian, german, indian h1b's i've worked with are *extremely* skilled, and work tirelessly.
others are...ahem, as bad as the worst american programmer, actually worse because of poor language skills. their so-called degrees are worthless.
by creating the myth of a shortage, it makes it easier for companies to pressure congress into letting in overseas talent.
additionally, it keeps the pump primed -- "wow, keannu reaves(sp) was cool in the matrix, i wanna be a programmer, no problem getting a job! the paper says so!"
the last company i worked for got (literally) 200-300 resumes submitted for each opening. they whittled those down to the top ten or so, then interviewed those final candidates.
so, nearly everyone in the industry does the old "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" at the so-called "IT Shortage". It's a joke to pressure congress and keep people exciting about being a programmer.
the reality is, programmers are odd, uncomfortable people that most normals don't want to be around. yeech. i guess it's the same for lawyers, or whatever.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Senior people in their fields rarely bother learning about distinct aspects of IT outside their own domain. The lead database architect at Oracle most liklely knows nothing of VHDL nor does he/she need or want to. The lead chip designer at Intel likely knows little about implementing terabyte databases.
Because these people are unlikely to cross over into each other's fields, they do not represent one labor market.
Authors of these articles need to break down the market to the same degree we do. That means people who work on databases aren't likely to become VHDL designiers, and operating system folks aren't going to become games programmers.
In web programming, the stats may not reflect a shortage, but we can't fill our recs here at work even by half (and we're in the heart of Santa Clara, with good stock options), so my anecdotal evidence doesn't jive with the author's claims.
I'm told I produced more work in my first two months here than the last two guys did in five years. Could it be that companies are tired of paying for incompetence and having to go through the process of documenting failures so that they can let someone go without fear of reprisal? There seems to be more short term assignments available than permanent jobs.
Another problem I had was that my skillset is fairly narrow (Unix Sysadm, Informix development primarily). I have years of experience, but it has all been with smaller companies who didn't run 24/7 and didn't want to shell out the cash for nicer toys, etc.
carlos
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
I know that when I graduated from high school, the counselors were saying for everybody that wanted to be "assured a job", they should definately go into IT/Com Sci programs, but now that I'm ready to graduate soon, I am thinking more and more often that the job market may be slowing down, since any jabroni with brains ran out and got their MCSE, and now may be sitting in cushy IT jobs while I sweated out college for 4 years learning things like compiler design, and how to program in MIPS RISC assembly.
Meanwhile, the reason that many people out of college may not be as intelligent as those who have been in the profession a while is that (as I know from personal experience) many have to work menial jobs while in college that may have no computer exposure in order to simply pay rent. In my college town, the mainly accessable jobs for students are service oriented, not technology oriented. I am very worried that I may not have the job skills to offer an employer that another student who did not have to work through school has from sitting in his dorm room and playing around with his computer for 4 years.
Essentially, this is a problem of self-improvement, for the market will evetually evolve to a point where only the best and brightest will be tolerated in positions of power.
"What we elect to call imagination is mere combination of things not heretofore combined." - Frank Norris
Not only is it not difficult to find an IT job, people who are not computer scientists by training such as mathematicians and other scientist seem to find themselves programming for a living. Anyone who is capable of learning how to work on/with computers is expected to, where I work. It seems to me that programmers will be the blue-collar workers of the 21st century. People will be expected to program, instead of choosing it. (Still there are those lucky few who actually LIKE to program/fix computers...) :-)
There is a bit of a shortage of top-notch programmers, which is impacting my business greatly. I can find people easily enough, but finding those who can do the kinds of things that we do (internet applications development) without a lot of hand-holding is difficult. A few weeks ago, I had to can a guy with a PhD in Computer Science for poor performance...
Any best-of-the-best CGI geeks who can work as contractors without constant supervision can feel free to send me a resume (plain text only)!
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
I work in a small shop - 35 or so people max here and in the SF office. We just went on a major hiring drive for programmers and q&a people. All the new programmers so far are foreign - to date a total of four with more coming. Since I'm not the hr person, and don't really deal with that side of the biz, I don't know what all the reasons are, but I just thought it was pretty interesting given the article's subject.
Of the nine current programmers, two are Americans - one of whom is the president and founder of the company. Kinda reflective of the current situation, or what?
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
Let's break this post down, class:
When I'm reading resumes, I immediately toss out any resume with MCSE on it.
MCSEs mean they passed a test. That means they likely have more knowledge about X than someone who hasn't. You may place any value for X that you please, it makes no difference. So, given a blank resume with just a name, and another blank resume with a name and "MSCE" on it, I will hire the MSCE. Knowing nothing else, wouldn't you too? So, automatically throwing out said resume is an act of extreme idiocy.
It doesn't mean anything unless you can back it up with some good sample code or a good answer to an algorithm question in the interview.
You obviously have neither taken the MSCE, nor gotten past your 2nd year of college. Most engineering degrees focus on problem-solving skills - you are presented a problem and it is up to you to solve it. The Cisco certification does similar.
Lastly, do you even know what empirical research is?
I really would have to say that the "IT Shortage" depends on the area you live in, and how many high tech companies are in the area.
I am sure that areas such as SoCal, and Boston, alon with the Austin, Texas area have a glut of "Paper" MCSE's who have dropped the bottom out of the pay scale and will work for less than half of a qualified, tech with 3-5 years work history.
If you are talking about the midwest, where "high-tech" companies are supposedly non-existent, finding good people who know the latest technology can be difficult, unless you are in St. Louis, Chicago, or Minneapolis/St. Paul.
Sometimes, however the "IT Shortage" is a result of unrealistic expectations, on the part of middle management.
When companies require a 4 year degree and 3-5 years work expertise, and won't even bother to take into consideration the people who have spent 3-5 years learning, and using the specific technology desired instead, they create a trap for themselves.
Seriously folks, if you were looking for "IT Staff" wouldn't you want people who knew the technology you were using inside and out, and have worked with it for a few years, or a fresh off the street CS/MIS Grad?
[flame disclamier]
I by no means am disregarding CS/MIS Majors, however I do know for a fact that a significant number of CS/MIS Programs don't teach the latest technology, and have a difficult time keeping up with all the changes.
[/flame disclamier]
"Fortune, Fame, Mirror Vain, Gone Insane..... But The Memory Remains...
Of course, the IT field is really not suited for PhDs in physics who spent most of their graduate work pounding out FORTRAN code and using graphical data analysis packages. I finally found a place that valued people with higher education as highly skilled problem solvers who can learn second (or third, or fourth...) programming languages, etc.
Eric
Why is everyone so intent on "disproving this myth" that there is an IT talent shortage? Don't you people know this gives you leverage when you negotiate your salary?
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
The point is, people in these fields rarely cross over to other fields. You need to tell me about shortages in these various fields. If you tell me there is no shortage of Cobol programmers, thats meaningless to me.
There's a shortage of people who will work for peanuts. Employers like the H1B visa holders because they can rule them with an iron fist. Don't hit that "moderate" button just yet! The H1B visa requires an employer to agree to hire you and remains tied to a specific employer. Low pay? Loust treatment? Crap assignments? Too bad. If you quit, your visa is void, immediately. Maybe you can find another job fast, but gov't paperwork will take so long to complete, that your visa will expire before you can get it transferred. The result? You have to leave the country. So the employer knows he has you by the balls. You'll take whatever and like it with a big smile, because you are in no position to bargain. The employer holds all your cards. So yeah, employers like this. They can pay less than you deserve and get away with it. They want more, so they cry about the "labor shortage". Look at misc.jobs.resumes. It's packed with skilled or readily trainable people looking for jobs. But American workers are too damned expensive, they dare to try and abuse their salary to do things like buy a house, car, support a family, and spend time off the clock with family, and other non-company related activities. Bastards! Employers would prefer a cheap H1B that lives in studio apt, rides a moped, and has no life, and will work 80 hrs/week. Duh. The free market makes this a good choice. But "The Shortage" is totally bogus.
Here in the Philadelphia area there is anything but a shortage of IT professionals.
:)
.sig: File not found.
I use the term professionals very strictly. At my current company we have a strong proliferation of IT wannabes. Horrible, horrible people. And we do multi-million dollar contracts with high-profile clientele which we frankly don't deserve.
I wouldn't release our product if I had say, but being 19 and definitely the junior in the department, I don't.
It took me 24 hours to be offered this job. It took me 5 days to get 12 different offers. The market here is very hot for someone with skills, even if they don't have that little degree slip of paper or, heaven forbid, and MCSE or similar.
The problem with the current employment situation isn't really a lack of good developers or an overabundance of horrible ones, but rather no good way to certify people so non-IT types can verify who they're hiring.
MCSE as mentioned recently doesn't do the job. No certification does. Programming is as much an art as anything else which, imho, is being hacked away at by things like VB and components people just download of the 'net and hack together to get to work.
Why write my own work when I can stand on the shoulders of others to create my piss poor crap?
Whatever, maybe I'm a little sick of working here. I'm looking for a new job, as is everyone else. It's horrible.
But, with today's market (yes, I've kind of gone tangential) it should be easy to do that.
Enjoy.
Jezz
ls:
ls:
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore?
If there isn't a shortage of qualified tech-industry workers, I'm very much at a loss to explain exactly why it is that the vast majority of companies I have personally had experience with are staffed by peopel that don't have any clue what they're doing.
One would imagine that in a situation where there was even anywhere near enough workers in a given field, there would not be half as many completely knowledgeless people running around with "certifications" and "experience".
Statistics and data projects aside, I think that anyone who looks around them and evaluates the people that he is working with and for can tell you that there are not enough qualified people in this industry.
that said, I'm not sure there are enough qualified peopel in any industry. but that's another story, I guess.
I found out empirically that people who put MCSE on their resumes just can't cut it. MCSE doesn't mean you have skills. It just means you passed a test.
A college degree is no different. It doesn't mean anything unless you can back it up with some good sample code or a good answer to an algorithm question in the interview.
And good ones aren't hard to find either. It didn't take me long to land this position. I program for a major software firm that I can't name. In addition to the thrill of a job well done, and very competitive pay (I receive $13 THOUSAND dollars every year . . . which my manager assures me is higher than most programming positions), the job is chock full of nifty benefits.
We always get the newest hardware to work on. Right now I'm sitting with a shiney new 12mhz 286 with FOUR megs of ram!!! These beasts are too powerful to even set loose on the commercial sector yet, and let me tell you, it BURNS compared to my last box. My manager assures me that I'll be the first in the department to get the new CD-ROM drives too. I love my manager so much.
Everyone gets a company sponsored apartment. It's like I never even have to drive anywhere to get to work! I have a whole 7 foot square room ALL to myself. The rags and blankets I sleep on every night I didn't even have to PAY for! You can't ask for better than that! And there's a hole in the corner that leads down to the sewers for waste removal. And over that hole is a spiggot with RUNNING WATER. It's soooooo cool! The entire package is in the greatest location too; about 75 feet below my office in the sub-basement! That's prime real-estate there!
And my manager (did I mention he's so cool?) comes and gets me and the other programmers at the beginning of every day. I don't have to spend money on an alarm clock! Not me! He comes down and PERSONALLY wakes us up, and even gives us a good minute to become aware of our surroundings before hauling us out of our rooms by the scruff of our neck! How generous!!!
He's sure to make sure we're all locked in front of our workstations with three manacles, and surrounded with a barbed wire fence. No, no other company is going to come and drag US away! We get to keep this job FOREVER! And at the end of our 18 hour workday (you can get SOOOOOO much done in 18 hours! You wouldn't believe it!) he unlocks us and PERSONALLY escorts us back home, usually taking the time to kick us into our rooms. Sure, sometimes my head hits the wall pretty hard, but we take entertainment where we can get it, and we get the best.
And food . . . Oh, we get the best food here at Microso . . . where I work. Thrice daily they pull out any waste that gets caught in the nets and grates lining the sewers and drainage gutters. I don't know what they do to it, but they turn it into the BEST stew in the WORLD! For FREE!!! And sometimes we even get nifty toys, like shopping carts and old needles. Just like a box of cracker jacks!!!
I know you're jealous and want to hear more, but I have to get back to work before my manager catches me. Last time he saw anyone reading slashdot, they were denied dinner for two months. MAN that must have sucked. But anyway, these jobs are easy to get. Just walk around Redmond Washington. You don't need to look for a job . . . they'll find you.
No offense, but is english your second language?
When you say there isn't a "shortage of IT professionals", do you mean people who merely get paid to do the job, or do you mean competent people? The problem is that when you say you use the term "strictly" that would imply the later.
In any case, as you may or may not know, the market for IT employees in Philly is very tight (I, too, live in philly). Witness: rising salaries, employers willing to pay virtually anything for competent help, the plethora of weak certification courses, etc. In what other career can a high school dropout take some certification course and make 60k++ within a year?
While you are certainly right that (atleast if I read this much correctly) employers have a hard time finding competent IT employees, I disagree with the cause(s) and some of your other statements. Although I don't disagree that you'll find atleast 20 idiots for every half competent IT worker, the problems extend far beyond just being able to test it. I think there is a genuine shortage of talented IT workers. Truely excellent IT people stand out head and shoulders above the rest, if for no other reason than 1 good IT person is worth atleast 20 monkeys. Regardless of whatever their formal credentials are, recommendations and the like are highly telling. I happen to know many employers and headhunters, the word generally is: If you have talent, give him whatever he wants. Consequently, employers have a very difficult time finding new (not age) talent, because they're generally quickly devoured.
The bottom line: Most employers have to spend absurd sums of money to get decent IT. Because skilled workers are impossible to find, employers are forced to turn to monkeys. And because monkeys are so damn ineffective, it takes 20 times as many to do the same job. Which causes the market for monkeys to skyrocket as well....
...which of course leads to the need for platforms such as NT. Which, ultimately, leads to the need for more monkeys. Which causes even more employee (non-IT) downtime, which only adds to the cost....Any sane skilled/intelligent person, of course, avoids such environments...Which naturally makes the majority of the up and coming generation virtually braindead when it comes to IT....
...sorry to run on. =)
gotta run
I spent considerable time reviewing resumes and interviewing hopeful candidates.
People with degrees may or may not be useful. Candidates with a four-year degree in traditional Computer Science were the best candidates. These people generally had the interest to complete the degree and the smarts to apply their knowledge.
People with certifications were not useful. Their certifications don't give them the creative background and basic understanding necessary to solve a problem from the ground up. They are versed only in the know-how needed to use systems popular at the time of the certification.
People with lesser degrees from lesser colleges were not useful. Their situation is similar to those who sought only a certification and tend to have skills that are specialized for the systems at the time of graduation.
Courses and certifications may be useful to those already employed in IT, but they provide little information of lasting value. Those who seek these credentials to get a job in the IT industry generally do not have the aptitude necessary to get the job done.
Students who apply themselves to a higher education in theoretical computer science have a better chance of being able to do the work. They are also more likely to innovate new technology.
I don't personally hold any degree or certification; these are just trends I have observed and will keep in mind the next time I find myself in a management position within IT (if ever).
Personally, i think the shortage is not of IT professionals, but of competent, well-trained ones. I have seen a number of programmers, developers and designers that don;t know anything but fake it real well, or the flip side which is those that know real well but are complete mercenaries and would screw over their employer or client in a heartbeat. I've dealt with both situations too often in the last year.
this space for rent
I finally managed to get into ddj.com and read the bloody thing. I was not impressed.
It wasn't about whether or not there was a scarcity of tech workers. It was about all the political crap which gets wrapped around that "issue", e.g. whether or not the US should allow more foreign workers.
Look:
And, frankly, connect-the-dots prognostication is silly. What no one wants to admit is that we've managed to create an environment (the net) in which the basics of operating a retail establishment (a store) require personal characteristics (facility with abstract thought) of the store workers (geeks) which only a comparatively small percentage of people have.
It would be one thing if ecommerce sites were like brick&mortar stores. Once you put up your KornerMart, it stays built, and you can pay all your architects, construction workers, HVAC experts, etc. and send them home. It would be one thing if new-media sites were like radio stations. Once you raise your KLUE transmitter and plug it in, you can send away the engineers who put up the tower. You can staff your KornerMart, your KLUE station with non-geeks and have your business run.
But an ecommerce site, a new-media site is constantly being reinvented. What's now is passe, so "five minutes ago". The envelop must constantly be pushed.
So long as that is true, you can expect the market demand for geeks to be rapacious. We are the only people who can run their store fronts in cyberspace, the only people who can keep the store open 24/7. They can't do without us, and as they try to expand, they will only need more and more of us.
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-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
The shortage is artificial. This is nothing more than an attempt to bring in foreign labor cheaper than local market labor. It is the same thing that the trucking companies do. I mean this as no slam on those IT professionals outside the US, but the reality is they are viewed by IT managers (not my view neccasarily) as a "cheap import". Yes, I realize many of these people are certainly not cheap or unskilled, but 98 times out of a 100 they are brought in because they are cheaper. That is the bottom line.
Companies complain about not having enough "qualified" tech workers. I wonder how many of these companies are willing to train their internal employees? I imagine very few. My company provides under $2K a year for school. That doesn't go very far. The fact that I (or anyone in my position) will recieve no pay increase when finished shows a shortage of vision on the part of management.
The shortage could easily be alleviated by companies looking within. When companies raise artificial obstacles (4 yr degree, and 3 years exp for 30K) they are going to suffer. If a company wants a trained & skilled IT workforce they should look at realistic hiring requirements, new people without experience (everybody has to start somewhere), training those employees they do have, and more to the point, keeping them. I have no sympathy for people who throw stones in glass houses and complain of windows breaking...
If there is a shortage of good people (like someone else proposed), as opposed to just a shortage of people in general, then I don't see a solution soon. With all of the "carreer colleges" and "professional education centers" advertising the quick buck and easy employment, the number of people doing it for the money will only increase, and will do so much faster than the number of people who are doing it for fun, so to speak. Unfortunately, the former group is likely to have a very small proportion of "good" programmers (someday I hope to find out what that means), but it is the group that will dominate the workforce. The other group (including me, one day, I hope), as well as those "good programmers" from the first group, will have to accept that the skills of many coworkers are inadequate, or alternatively that there won't be enough people who can get the job done, and so they will be overworked.
This may cause incomes to increase, and I believe will only cause the problem to spiral out of control. Eventually the whole poverbial bandwagon will crash, and the I see one of two possibilities:
Either way, something will have to change. Maybe not anytime soon, but eventually.
Then again, I'm only a student. All of my experience is from another industry (construction), so I may be way off base. Comments?
Tim