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Largest ISP In Philippines: The Catholic Church
Cheshire Cat writes: "I came across an article at mercurycenter.com. It's about how the Roman Catholic Church is the largest ISP in the Philippines. While it is very low cost, it also filters out porn sites. An interesting quote from the article: '[A user] types in the Internet address for a Playboy Web site. Almost immediately, the computer displays this admonition: 'Thank God you were not able to enter that bad site. CBCPNet suggests that you access wholesome sites instead. God Bless You.'"
Doesn't suprise me.
--The Groove
Funny enough, it does the same thing for Slashdot...
. at my signal -- unleash hell .
And I thought that the union of the church and state was evil
Maybe AOL should jump on the bandwagon
Then we can hav the father son and steve case
Ikaw taña...
--
Game over, 2000!
True, there are some areas in which the church really is the only service available, but I guess that's the price of development. If nobody else is willing to move in and provide service and the church is, well -- then it's their business how they want to run their service. Nobody is forcing people to get internet access in the first place.
On the other hand, I've never been fond of Christian mission work. "We'll move in, provide needed services like medical aid and helping provide agricultural assistance, and in the process, we'll wash them of their evil non-Christian beliefs by assmiliating them through our indoctrination".
Interestingly enough, the church doesn't have a problem allowing kids to play bloody shootem-ups in their Church-run internet cafes. I guess it's okay to blow someone's head off but not to reasearch breast cancer or track down a killer photo of Angelina Jolie partially nude.
Maybe another entity will move in and provide competition in these areas and then there will be a choice as to whether or not they want filtered service or not. Then again, since the church has so much political clout in the region, they may just move into the legal system and demand filtering by all ISP's so that only the word of the almighty (Christian)God is available.
All in all, this isn't anything different than what they'd like to do in the United States.
---
seumas.com
thank god you weren't exposed to REALITY.. pitiful.
-sneakyian, President, Lamer Euthanization Services, Inc. "Putting you out of our misery since 1973"
hrm... smells like we need to do some more work to catch up w/ the rest of the world. You'd think that things would have slowed down after we ditched latin... but nooooo, just got to keep on going leaving us in the dust. What I'm really wondering about is when catholics didnt allow gambling... well... we can always be thankful we're not baptist right? :)
real life the pope doesn't allow use of condoms, but this E-pope does allow surfing with a E-condom. It's a strange world...
How to make a sig
without having an idea
Filtering is totally consistent with the Catholic way. If they didn't filter, they'd be hypocrits.
At worst, I might say "Shame on you, say twenty Hail Mary's" if they didn't make an honest effort to get half-decent filterware, or they are intentionally blocking (for instance) Protestant churches or general medical websites.
My mom is not a Karma whore!
If they're filtering out Slashdot, that's weird, though. =) I like Slashdot. *grin*
But this kind of thing really disturbs me. An ISP has no business filtering what their users can and cannot do on the net. They are paying for the service, so they should be able to dictate what they see (within the bounds of the law of course).
... that don't even have TVs and the such play counter stike. They probly goto school the next day complaning about their ping times too.
"Do not seeketh to gain entry into heavenly portals, lest ye be struck down in the midst of your entry. Heavenly portals shall seek you out when they deem you worthy of entry."
You can also look to the following verses, which are also available on our website for guidance.
"If your keyboard is your problem, cut it off. Better to enter the portal of heaven with only a mouse, than to not be able to enter at all. If pointing and clicking is unseemly, then by all means, purchase VR glasses (from our website) and the new head mouse (also available on our website) and remove the mouse from thy presence."
"For no one who hath hacked, or cracked their way into the portal of heaven shall be allowed to stay for long. They shall be given access long enough to know how wondrous God's creation, the internet, is, and in doing so, shall hopefully gain the wisdom of peace and harmony."
For humor purposes only.
krystal_blade
It will be easy to motivate our fellow man; there is hardly anything people treasure more than not being annihilated.
Not a government agency obliged to respect opposing views. Not a corporation bent on maximizing profit. Not a monopoly unfairly using its marketshare to bludgeon potential competitors into submission. A religious organization, part of whose stated purpose is to practice and promote a certain code of conduct.
The Catholic Church is about morality. They're supposed to instill moral behavior by word and by example. Of course they're filtering out porn, and probably other stuff that conflicts with the Catholic ideal. Would you ever take the Church seriously again if they were using their resources to make pornography readily available for all who want it?
Got Warez?
from the no-dirty-pix-of-amy-shaftoe dept
I've only recently started to read the from the ... dept part of the postings. Is it just me or does this seem to be the consistantly best part of Slashdot?
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
how many hail Mary's my newgroup subscription list would get me..
GiraffeSville, a place anyone can call home
I think it's great and I like the idea of an ISP a christian family could use without worrying what their kids might find on the net! What at pity that the Church here doesn't provide anything like this.
A relatively small portion of the magazine itself is devoted to "God's creation" (aka. naked and semi-naked women); The rest is horribly LIBERAL and SECULAR writing with no XTIAN MESSG in them. I bet that's what they really dont want you to get at.
Anyone know if they also filter out Salon for printing negative articles on the church and its views?
That's why people should use pgp/freenet/gnutella stuff.
Anyway, real people already know that.
I have no interest in being protected but unless they are killing the email spam they are only hitting the tip of the iceberg in blocking websites.
Give it a few years and you will find more and more ISPs will start to filter. Especially in the UK where there is likely to be some precedents set down in the future based around the Obscene Publications Act and transparent proxy caches.
If I, as an ISP, am serving you the customer, material which is deemed illegal in either your country or mine, I am deemed liable. It doesn't matter if the webserver it came from is on the other side of the world and I have no control, as under UK law I am responsible for the storage (transparent cache) and distribution (via my modem racks, DSL circuits, Frame Relay, whatever) of obscene material.
Trust me, give it 5 years and the "bad stuff" will disappear, but at least in the UK we don't have the strong Bible belt and we are more "European" in our attitudes towards this kind of stuff these days (read as "the British have loosened up in the past few years and shagging goats is almost acceptable these days"). This is especially good as the whole Obscene Publications Act defines material to be illegal in a highly subjective manner - the society deems it OK, so the law will as well.
Anyway, enough babbling..
Keep a few things in mind when reading the mercurycenter article, and note some things that you may not have known when you read the leader above.
(1) Percentage-wise, the Philippines are heavily Catholic.
(2) People in the Philippines have a choice of ISPs. One ISP (initiated by the Catholic Bishops' Conference) is attempting to cater to what it thinks Catholics want. Are you angry that they are successful?
(3) If you don't want CBCPNet to filter your internet connections, all you have to do is fill out a request asking them not to.
(4) CBCPNet tells you how to report sites that you think were incorrectly filtered (either blocked when they shouldn't have been, or not blocked when they should have been.)
I know that a lot of people go berzerk when they hear the words "internet filtering" or "censorship", but it doesn't seem like this is worth getting worked up about. The gist of the article is that if you live in the Philippines, you have the option of using an ISP whose default configuration blocks access to pornographic sites. The popularity of this option surprised Mercury News, so they wrote an article about it.
I encourage you to read the CBCPNet faq (http://www.cbcpnet.com/faq/index.htm) or "About Us" page (http://www.cbcpnet.com/aboutus/index.htm), but I'll quote three questions here for ease of reference:
What if I find an objectionable site that gets through the filter?
Simply notify us and we will evaluate the site for addition to our blocked list.
What if I find a site that is unnecessarily blocked?
Simply notify us and we will evaluate the site to allow access.
Can I request RCNet to turn off filtering for me?
Yes, either when you sign up for service or anytime afterward. We can turn it back on for you anytime you request.
Just because the largest ISP in the Philipenes is the mother church, this does not mean that the Church is trying to 'wash them of their evil non-Christian beliefs by assmiliating them through our indoctrination', or at least, I certainly hope not! I thought that the point here is that there is a free market in the Phillipenes, and people there who choose the Catholic Church as their ISP are very probably already Catholics. Personally, I would like to have an ISP that filters content for me, at least when it comes to porn. Its one less thing for me to do! And the Catholic Church can be sure to spend its profits in a community minded fashion - by using a Church as your ISP, you are injecting money into the local community, rather than faceless shareholders, or at least, thats the way it seems to me. I would like it if more ISP's were not for profit, but for community. I would feel much better about my local ISP if it really were local. I think that the Catholic Church having an ISP service is a very good thing, and gives the commercial companies something to think about! Thanks.
--Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The
A quote from the site:
CBCP may try to restrict users to wholesome sites, but it tolerates violent computer games. At most of the church's Internet cafes, paying customers like 15-year-old Michael Arigusa in Quezon City mostly use their rented computer keyboards to hunt down and kill bloodthirsty terrorists in a violent computer game known as ``Counter Strike.''
Do you kow how much they charge for an a hour's worth of gaming? $0.50. And these kids play for hours.
Hey, you can't browse pornographic sites, but we can let you play violent games where you kill each other by gunning down your enemy or throwing hand granades at them and see their blood get splattered all over the pavement. Oh, and don't forget the head shots!
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-- Thomas Paine
"CBCP may try to restrict users to wholesome sites, but it tolerates violent computer games. . .
While Quitorio acknowledges that the church frowns on the violent arcade games, he has chosen to take a pragmatic attitude.
``We were convinced by Eman that we had to adjust to the priorities of the market, or we wouldn't earn enough money to open new sites,'' he said. ``Since the terminals in most Internet cafes are used for games, we had to accept it.''"
echo $email | sed s/[A-Z]//g | rot13
They apply "catholic rules" for each user whether he is catholic or not!
So you may say, just don't use this ISP, but what-if it is the only one available for you?
It is really incredible that those church people thinks they can decide what EVERYBODY should do, should see etc.
That they can decide what is good or bad for the people that share their religion, this I can understand, but why oh why do they try to enforce their rules to all the other???
It really shows that religious people (unfortunately this is not limited to catholicism) have really NO RESPECT for all those who dares not think in the same way even if "modern religious people" pretends the opposite.
It's funny, come one, you laughed didn't you? If you didn't then you need a humor transplant!
Really, what if an atheist created an ISP and filtered out religious sites? When someone tried to type in the URL www.jimmyfarwell.com or something then they would get admonished with a page that said...
"Good thing we stopped you from resorting to the opiate of the masses! Why don't you just do your thinking for yourself and enjoy a game of Tekken Tag?"
I would go into what an agnostic ISP would do but it's not as funny...
"When people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'." -Bakunin
As long as it filters out goatse.cx, I'm not sure how opposed I am! ;)
SSL Certificate
- it is big (they say "biggest")
- it is relatively cheap (I am not sure you can afford to be expensive in Philippines)
- it filters out mass-oriented website (pr0n, etc.) so that you know you might usually have enough bandwidth to nerd around.
- you can (hopefully) get here from there.
So, yes.Actually, I don't plan to settle there and I also expect some people who actually used to to tell about their actual experience with them. I'd especially want to know if they filter more or less stuff as the Swiss Post where I work. (It could'nt actually be stricter
--
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Then again, since the church has so much political clout in the region, they may just move into the legal system and demand filtering by all ISP's so that only the word of the almighty (Christian)God is available.
When the Ayatolla of Iran takes over militarily and forces a hyper-conservative flavor of Islam on the people, we shun the country and declare it a "rogue state." When Afganistan begins enforcing strict moral codes on the population (such as women are not allowed outside the home, ever), it makes it onto all the e-mail circuits as a crime against humanity. When the Catholic Church buys its way into imposing its moral standards onto a country.... then what?
In this case, the Church is running a business, not a governemnt, if you are unsure of the difference, read up on Libertarians (http://www.harrybrowne.org). Also the Church tends to comply with those silly UN resolutions on Human Rights, and International Law, unlike certain, Jihad obssesed countries I can think of. If a democratically elected government decides that certain actions should not occur, be it public nudity, suicide, smoking, or murder, this is generally considered ok. Heavily Catholic or not, the Philipines still claims to be a democracy.
Jihad -Holy War in which people are given a choice between life, as the aggresor chooses, or death, as the aggressor chooses.
Evangelism -Making people aware that they have a choice between the life they live now, and a new life that they might find more enjoyable if they would only think about it.
Great! Do they provide E-Indulgences?
For instance in many European countries there is in fact a State Church you're made a member of at birth and which gets its funding by public taxation (usually less than 1% of your income).
They filter out web sites on UK ISP Demon?
You can confess on-line?
The filtering software gives you fifteen hail marys?
The next pope will be called George Ringo?
What about a pagan ISP? Would they filter out Christian web sites? Or would they credit their users with eyes to see and a brain to think with.
Organised Religion is all about controlling the people. "Do what we say, or you'll go to [insert eternal pain and torment myth here]"
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
"Information wants to be paid"
The church is just trying to tell people how they feel about the content they are trying to view. There's no one forcing the people to use this ISP. If you don't like the policy go somewhere else. Should the Church allow strip shows in the back of church because some people get bored with the sermon. This is not a government that has to allow all comers to do what they want. This is a church that is founded on a belief system that they have adheared to for 2000 thousand years. Religions are based on beliefs that are felt to be unbreakable. If the rules are not enforced, why have them at all. I apploud the Catholic Church for sticking up for what they believe in.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
I'm sure that /. readers will focus on the filtering aspect of this article, and not the whole part about wiring remote areas. It seems to me that the Church is doing more to connect disparate parts of the country than any of the other providers. That actually sounds like something we could use in the US. Besides, you can request the filtering be turned off at any time, including when you open the account.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
A friend of mine used CBCPNet as her ISP before. She was busy searching for articles on computer security and ended up being banned from one. As CBCPNet relies on filtering technology to restrict access to websites, it may also hinder innocent people from conducting their own researches. =) Not to ignite some sort of religious debate here, but the question that this issue really raises is: Is is ethical for any agency, the Catholic Church included, to ban people from gaining access to information, no matter how potentially harmful it would be? (Never mind the morality, I know fully well that religious organizations treats morality as one of their highest pillars and all that...) I don't know, but I would definitely not get an ISP which restricts my access to anything. Especially not when I'm faced with a term paper deadline. =P
Pet peeve: Profane people propagating perfunctory pedantry.
i wish had mod points today, that junk is funny...
Hey Jon Katz, guess what, here is something that can qualify as a VC.... and better yet they are doing it their way, and apparently won't have to bend to the wills of the so called pseudo-intelligia that they might have to listen to here.
I can just imagine the hell they would have to pay setting up something like this in NYC for the poor. It would be all fine and dandy they offered service but I guarantee you that some "victim protection group" would arise and claim abuse by the Church.
More power to them! Not only do they offer a method for the poor and others to access information, they are doing it in a country that isn't exactly freedom loving. Now, if they could get into a communist country wouldn't that be fun???
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
How do I chose?
If I lived there and was shopping for an ISP I would have only a few choices. One is a joint venture with Telstra which I know is evil having delt with them. The other is the Holy Roman Catholic Church which after a number of years of being abused by nuns in schools I also know is evil [sound effect of the Sisters's metal wacking stick cracking across my nuckles ala Blues Brothers]
It's interesting that this article discusses the fact that the Catholic Church is trying to do something to address the so-called "Digital Divide" and so many people key on the fact that they're filtering porn. Yes, freedom of speech is important; however one should bear in mind that many of these poor people would have no access to the internet at all if it weren't for the Catholic Church helping them. I think that the church should be applauded for at least trying to address an issue of social justice. Maybe they could go about it in a better way but at least they're trying to do something to bridge the gap between the digital haves and have-nots.
--
"And that's the world in a nutshell -- an appropriate receptacle."
-- Stan Dunn
The church has a right to ban those sites because they provide the service. If they receive public funding, and the law says it's ok to allow porn - that's another. Next are we going to say, parents can't block porn site from their children? So if it's bad for children, it's bad for us. The US government is trying to convince children smoking is bad for you - but it's ok for your parents? The statistics show that since the 60's violent crime, divorce, molestation, rape and etc. have risen sharply. I applaud the church for final taking a stand. You can cry free speech all you want but ignoring the morals is just plain ignorance. This stuff messes with your head and degrades women. What if that was your sister, mother, wife in playboy? It's somebody's loved one. Everyone wants to say - Thank God the church isn't allowed to tell us what to do but wait until some punk decides he wants to "put a cap in your a$$" because he didn't like the way you looked at him. That shows you what "do your own thing" and moral relativism has done to our society.
I wonder if they block websites that support heliocentricity?
Why? Christianity is heliocentric itself. It's no coincidence that Christmas falls on the same day as Sol Invictus' day and other "pagan" holidays. Try This article out, it's an interesting read.
Lowmag.net
Seems /. loves focussing on the negatives.
It's unheard of (in australia), that the catholic church would be that technologically advanced (and as organized to have a national network). They should be congratulated really, the church and technology have never really gotten on well together (everyone remembers those scientists trying to disprove religious facts like the shroud of turin).
About the censorship they impose, so what? It's their business, they can control it however they like. Whilst censorship is a contentious issue for public places, like libraries and schools, in the private domain, its up to the business (in this case the church).
The terms of service is what people should be paying attention to, if the isp says it censors some sites, then forget it if ye are so inclined. The only problem I would have is if an ISP didn't specify that they were doing censoring (and one I used to connect with did so, just blocked access, no proxy message or nothing, so I would never have known i was being censored).
Cheers,
leroy.
Here's the perfect business idea, to compete with the catholic Church... start an ISP that blocks all non-porn sites... You could call it APPNet.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
.. filtering porn sites is just what they should do! Read the Gospel... Porn is just an insult to women and mankind in general. If one does not want filtering he has only to go to another ISP. PS: I'm chatolic. Chatolics do some censorship. Muslins in far east are killing HUNDREDS of people, just because they're not muslin. Which behaviour is bad? Please, keep attention of truly important things.
Wow, you had your own CRts? Back in my day, there was only one CRT in the cybercafe, and it was pointed away from us.
If I had a mod point, you'd get a funny.
Seems like a strange name for an archbishop =)
--
Sinepaw.org: Grape Winos
holy rollin' like James Brolin
Agreed.
;)
I don't see anything wrong with what the Catholic Church is doing. They are providing a service at a price. Too high a price? Keep in mind that price has galaxies more significance than just money cost. Try to start another ISP. The fact that you can request the filtering to be turned off (and they'll turn it off) is telling, so in short this is a standard rubber-stamp slashdot overreaction.
I am not sure getting the internet for all is even a worthwhile goal, it just seems like progress without purpose. I know I spend my time on stupid sites like Slashdot rather than self-improvement type sites, so the 'net for me has a negative influence on my time.
If you think about it, the pOrn industry is the first to really profit from the internet. Do I really agree with filtering? Not really. Should an organization that is likely loosing money providing internet service to private homes be _required_ to filter or to not filter? No. I think even the Phillipines is a capitalist country with some amount of freedom in that respect.
Alas, much adeu about zilch.
And just who will be evaluating the site?
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous...
Ok, which murderes are you descended from? America - killed the indians for no good reason. Brittain - India. France - South America. Portugal - South America. Italy - The knwon world 1700+ years ago. Russia? - Killed 50 million people while being communist and might be going back. China - kills anyone who might think of disagreeing with the government. The list goes on and on.
If you are part of a group with a long history, it's prettymuch guaranteed to be one that involves bloodshed or at least opression and exploitation.
Btw, do you think that the US government should pack it in because of the McCarthy era? Should every person who commits a crime pack it in either through honorable suicide or the gas chamber?
Have you never made a mistake? If you have, it's time to pack it in. I'll expect your bloody entrails all over your keyboard in 10 minutes.
What, going to forgive yourself for your mistakes? What a strange thought. Perhaps it might cross your mind to apply the same principle to others. Sure it might not be convenient, but intellectual honesty can be that way at times.
Oh, if you go back 500+ years, the world in general was a much more violent place than it is in the USA today. Torture was a pretty common thing. If you don't believe me, check out what the justice system was like back then.
Besides, if you don't know that the inquisition quickly turned into (if it ever began differently) an attempt by people to get revenge on their enemeies and grab wealth. It was a mostly secular affair, with a bit of religious infuence.
So when you get down to it, landowners are the real problem. I guess that they're the ones who should pack it in. I hope you rent.
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
the religious right are not catholics i assure you. we are much more laid back than that. its those prods. UP THE RA! :)
The point of this story is that these people choose to use the catholic church as an ISP... so its filtered... live with it. you get access from a church. go elsewhere if you want smut.
.... which i do.
they now be called the Philistines, as they allow
Quake, but ban Playboy?
© Copyright 2000 Kristian Köhntopp
All rights reserved.
Historically, the R.C. Church has always aided the poor when it comes to money and technology.
:-)
Consider:
Once Gutenburg's printing press was perfected, it was the Church that was the biggest patron. For over 500 years, the most printed book on the planet has been the Bible. This allowed for spreading the word faster and cheaper.
They didn't pay for Voltaire's Candide to be printed, though.
46. The Hobo smiles, his eyes glaze over, and he burps. "Beware the man who has lived longer than the Wasteland."
We should all learn a lesson from this, an error message which is polite, friendly and offers a suggestion. If a typical programmer wrote this the error message would read "Error 8975132 Bad request overflow at line 78223"
Heheh. The Church has more practice at ALL of the above tactics than most governments. It HAS done all of the things you have mentioned in the past.
The diffrence now is that the Pope frowns on such a misuse of power.
I can see it now: Danni's Hard Drive 1st site to be digitaly-excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church.
I think the thing that might scare you is the concept of someone not being driven by a profit motive. People who are after money are easy to predict and control.
jmorzins makes some good points. Think about it from their point of view for a moment. You are a church that believes porn is sinful. You are going to offer Internet service, and you realize that a great deal of Internet content is sinful in nature. So you suddenly find yourself delivering the very material that you should be fighting against. You can bet there were a lot of backroom discussions on how best to handle this whole issue. To censor, or not to censor? The compromise they came up with was to censor by default. It's not the choice I would make, but given the nature of the organization, it's completely understandable. It's commendable actually, that they allow you to opt out of being censored.
You mean, there really are nuns wearing beepers!?
I wonder if they still run their servers on OS/2.
I hope someone prints this out and sells this entire thread to one of those 'growing up catholic' books. If there is one things Catholics are good at, it's laughing at themselves, and how other people choose to precieve them!
This thread has made me laugh harder than anything in recent memory.
DUH
Every ISP is free to do whatever the hell they want.
--
Free Mac Mini
Has anyone been able to check if their filtering service can be circumvented using akamai? It would be interesting to see just how far they've gone to prevent this 'decadence'.
"Whadda'ya watchin'?"
"Angry Monkey."
"That HORRIBLE monkey."
1/4 philipino, granddaughter of the completely beautiful Glory, slim and curvy, nice breasts, assertive, smart, a swimmer ... what is there not to like about Amy Shaftoe?!
simon
p.s. incidentally, am I alone in thinking that the Bobby Shaftoe of Cryptonomicon must be inspired by the traditional children's song?
"Hey Carlito, r'membah me? Benny Blanco from the Bronx!"
Anyone remember why, or how, the Phillipines got to be so Catholic? Why all Philipinos are named after Catholic feasts & holidays? Because the "Compassionate" Christians killed the non-believers in my name. Talk about attrition! If one were to add up all of the dead bodies from the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Colonization years, Hitler would look like a boy scout.
Truth is, you can go anywhere in the world where there are brown-skinned folk (except for the middle east, more on that later...), and you will find a Catholic stronghold. It disgusts me, personally. In such countries, the Catholic church exerts heavy influence on all aspects of life. It's no surprise to see what they're doing in the Phillipines.
I'm hoping that one day people will rise up and destroy the vampiristic death cult (I mean, they want to eat my body and drink my blood to gain eternal life, right?) that is the Catholic church. The Mafia, having its head cut off in the process, will unravel like a colony of ants that has lost its queen.
I'd rather be a unix freak than a freaky eunuch
Ewige Blumenkraft!
Here are some links for people suffering behind such censorware. Hopefully not all of them are blocked.
http://www.anonymizer.com/
http://www.idzap.com/
http://www.stas.net/xtcdraqon/space.htm
stories talking about their pedophile priests:
http://www.thelinkup.com/stats.html
The Catholic Church has been pretending this stuff doesn't happen for a long time. Sinead O'Connor may not have totally thought out her actions when she ripped that picture of the pope but she still takes shit for it now when all she wanted was some kind of acknowledgement that their may be a problem.
If the Catholic Church can't get their morality straight, then why trust them with something as serious as your internet service?
For some filtering software will also filtered on the "proxied" links, such as anonymiser.com/http://www.some-porn-site/ ...
It's the classic story - as the blocked find ways around the block, the blockers increase their block. Repeat.
In talking about the influence of the Church in the Phillipines: "Of course, building the Internet infrastructure also adds to the Church's considerable political clout. Two months ago, Jaime Cardinal Sin, the nation's influential archbishop..." [emphasis mine].
Their nation's archbishop's name is "Cardinal Sin"? Oh, those wacky Catholics...=)
[Put away thy holy flames...I'm Methodist.]
--
-- Geof F. Morris
I consider myself fairly left....
I would prefer that noone "Pushes through" legislation at all. I want every voice to be heard...I fully believe in free speach. However, legislation is not free speach.
I don't want a theocratic state. Your gods law has no place in the "Law of the land". No religion has any right to push its views and restrict the actions of people who are not adherents to its faith.
Chruch and state must be kept seprate. COmpletely seprate. I am a firm believer that ANY argument that has anything to do with religion should immediatly be rejected when it comes to whether or not a law should be passed. Mythology has no place in the halls of congress (unfortunaly, it finds its way there all too often).
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
What exactly is the other system? let everyone do everything and be happy about that?
What about murderers? They might well be following their own philosophical thoughts (e.g. every ethnic cleanser you want to name). At some point, one has to impose one's morality on others, if in no other way than the morality that you shouldn't be killed.
Once you've opened that door, it's a very slippery slope to imposing all of your morality on others. Where exactly does one stop? One common consensus is that people have the right to do anything that they want as long as noone else is affected, and this is reasonable as a principle of law, at least.
However, the catholic church is not primarily concerned with how to survive this world as pleasantly as possible, but with how to be perfect (in theory, assume standard disclaimer of fallible human beings here). As such, they have explored what perfection means in a variety of cases, and pornography isn't perfect, or leading to perfection.
Is it vaguely reasonable to expect them to use their resources to promote something that goes agains their *philosophical thoughts*?
Remember, these are the catholics, not the baptists, not the born-again tradition of the american south. The catholic church has a long and rich history of philosophers (as well as nearly everything else, too).
Of course, heaven/hell as reward/punnishment is pretty commonly told to children, but then again, you'll find precious few people who don't treat children on a reward/punnishment system. You might want to investigate what real catholic theology is before condmening the version of it common among children and the uneducated.
And if you want to belittle some system, just look at what happens to it in the hands of the uneducated (or the proud or the powerful). There is not, nor ever has been, a system of thought or religion which was shared by more than a few people which has not been corrupted by some (or at times most) of its followers.
If you consider that, and look at real catholic doctrine and philosophy, blocking pornography is a pretty natural, rational course of action. Well, unless you are an anarchist. of course, at that point, nothing is rational, so there's nothing special about the catholic church's actions in this case.
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
The Catholic Church has been in the business of making money for a millenia. (Indulgences, crusades, the mafia, etc.)
First, I admit that no one in the Church is perfect, and that many in the Church have done ungodly acts through the ages. However, as a whole, I do believe that the Church is based on the truth of Jesus Christ, and it's mission is good. I will now turn to your statement.
If the Church is in the business of making money, why then does it promote selflessness (even to the point of demanding celibacy)? Why are the clergy, for the most part, unpaid? From the Pope to the deacon! How many "businesses", or even churches can say the same? For those of you who do not know, until the 90s when a thorough bureaucratic change was ordered by the Pope, the Church had been in debt for decades.
Indulgences: Even though it is not practiced as widely as before, the Church still has the right to indulgences (you can read more about this at the Catholic Encyclopedia linked below). I don't believe anyone has forced you to be a member of the Church, and I don't believe anyone has forced you to pay anything toward indulgences.
Crusades: Where were you when the Church was being persecuted and ransacked? Where were you when the Pope and the entire Holy See was exiled to Avignon, France? Where were you when ten of the twelve disciples were being hung, crucified, or beheaded because of the Gospel they preached? What happened when God came down and gave us the most selfless and loving philosophy ever known in history? Where were you when martyrs were stoned to death? Of course no violence is to be condoned, and those members of the Church that did kill went against the teachings of the Church.
The Mafia: There's a good one. Where were you when Pope John Paul II openly chastised the Mafia? And where were you when the mafia bombed the church of Saint John Lateran in retaliation?
Please.
New Advent
The Catholic Encyclopedia
Nah, doesn't cut it.
In the POW scenario, the reality of the situation is, with all probability, that you will be horribly tortured if you fail to comply, yet few -- and certainly not Xians -- will argue that it is morally right to excecute the other prisoner with no motivation given.
Although the point made downthread that morality is an illusion has a certain value, it is useful to apply the term to the system of rules or guidelines by which an individual runs their life. For example, most people agree that it's not a good thing to go around randomly killing people, even if it might lead to personal gain (looting). There are two obvious motivations for this: fear of repercussion (police) and the golden rule or moral imperative: you wouldn't want them doing that to you. The formal, by itself, is opression. The second can be usefully labelled morality. Xian doctrine is the former; an atheist conforming to society's norms for mutual benefit is the latter.
As a private organization, the Catholic Church has every right to filter their internet access. While people may disagree with thier decision to do so (I do), the fact remains that they have no obligation to provide unfiltered access. Incidentally, as several posts have mentioned, they do provide unfiltered access upon request.
The real problem here is not simply the access restrictions, it is the conflicting doctrine of the church. The church does say that viewing pornography, et al, is a sin. This is not in dispute. But there is another point in church doctrine that is not compatible with content filtration--the doctrine of free will. The church asserts that man is given free will, the ability to do as he chooses. The church asserts that God grants the people the option to sin if they wish; the church says that the people have the option, and that the people should choose to behave themselves. Indeed, the entire concept of salvation, among the fundamental tenets of the church, is based upon voluntarily choosing to accept their beliefs. In light of this, it seems that implementing content filtration by default would mitigate the value of a person's choice not to view naughty websites; his free will has been diminished.
In short, the choice of the church to implement content filtration by default seems to be a complicated issue at best, and a contradiction of doctrine at worst. But, while it may be a breech of doctrine in the eyes of some, it is certainly within the church's rights to do so.
Disclaimer: I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Catholic church. If I have offended anybody, or made mistakes on any details, I am sorry; I didn't mean to do it. This comment is based on my understanding and interpretation of Catholic beliefs. I welcome any relevant posts along this topic.
"Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
--Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca
If this was some state run system, and users were forced to only go through it... or if it was a state enforced filtering, THEN you could bitch. I know of several bars in town that don't serve the beer I like, and I am not gonna gather all my lamer buddies and March against them or anything like it. Sheez people, dont be so closed minded when you are being "Open Minded". Here is how it works. I don't bother you, you don't bother me. I don't force you to live like I think you should live, you don't do the same to me. Enlightenment does not begin with a catch phrase or the thought, "eliminate all who eliminate any". It begins with giving the same respect and dignity to others as you would have them give to you... (sound familiar?)
I seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, I seek the things they sought.
Ironic, considering that the Catholic church has the largest collection of pornography in the world.
Hey, the Catholic church people aren't the only ones filtering the web. Check out Ask Jesus.
--Vasilis
Vasilis Vasaitis
Late readers: please moderate at Newest First, with a low threshold, to promote late writers.
I've looked into newadvent in the past and find them to be revisionist in their history of the church. Big Brother is real, you know. He's known by many names, just like the devil. The word the Cathars used for hell on earth (the center of the secular empire) was Roma. Coincidence?
Lowmag.net
...by Dan Simmons then you'll know that the Catholic Church will be a major player in the future of technology in the galaxy. ISPs are nothing - just wait until they start dealing with AIs and making those cruciform things...
--
-- SIGFPE
If you are on the kind of budget that many people in countries like the Phillipines are likely to be on, you must use the cheapest service available. That means you are going to use the Catholic Church's ISP. The Catholic Church has already shown that they will try to dictate what people can and can't access. This article is about censorship, and more to the point censorship beyond the walls of the church. For those who want to defend the Catholic Church for doing this, let me ask, would you condone a Muslim ISP blocking Christian web sites?
Free speech, huh? If you're such a crusader for free-speech rights, how come you're badmouthing the Catholic church for exercising *its* free speech rights? If these people don't want to have their Internet access filtered, they should go somewhere else--nobody's shoving the Church's access down their throats.
God.
(to be read with dripping sarcasm): We all know that the One True God speaks only through Catholic priests, right? The rest of us "Christians" are a bunch of pagans.
Now, I have no particular brief for the Roman Catholic church - I disagree with some of their teachings and a lot of their administration. As far as filtering the internet service that they are providing, though, I can't say that it's really any of my business.
Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
Actually, morality springs from God. He is the definition of morality. Religion is a manmade construct. Christianity is about relationship, not religion.
Another flawed analogy, another straw man. Were I in a POW camp and ordered to kill someone or face torture, this is only objectionable because I have compunctions against killing people. God says, "Be kind to other people." Do you have compunctions against being a nice person? If so, I'm glad I don't know you. It's not hard to avoid hell. Just turn away from things that hurt yourself and hurt other people, and follow Christ.
Your last paragraph misses the third obvious motivation. You list two, both of which sound negative in tone.
I'm not seeking to avoid a negative, I'm seeking to attain a positive. I want a better relationship with God. I really want to help people, not for selfish motivations like protecting myself from them or from an authority, but because I want to help.
Yet even if I'm the nicest guy in the world, I still fall short. God is completely holy, a concept that our culture doesn't really understand any more, and cannot have even a trace of unholiness in His presence. But He is willing to forgive and cover that sin if we but ask Him to do so. When your standard is holiness, sin deserves death. But Christ paid that price so that we don't have to. That's the mercy of God.
Constitutionally Correct
'Thank God you were not able to enter that bad site. CBCPNet suggests that you access wholesome sites instead. God Bless You.
If my browser said that everytime I tried to access pr0n I would be so blessed Id be able to walk on water...
--
Game over, 2000!
Why hammer the Catholic church for filtering porn? Nobody yells at free ISPs for their incessant advertising. This is just the backswing of the pendulum, if I may invent words.
I'm sorry all those poor Phillipinos can't see Asian she-men peeing on lesbian Nazis. I'm sure their culture will recover from this glaring ommision.
And all this discussion about corruption in the church... not everyone can live up to the standard. That doesn't make it right, but it doesn't destroy the standard. There are depraved screwballs in every profession... but nobody hires them for their screwball depravity.
All this and I'm not even Catholic.
I think the world should rally behind a different, nobler cause: Popples.
REM Old programmers don't die. They just GOSUB without RETURN.
Didn't Microsoft buy them out a few years ago?
sulli
RTFJ.
I don't think that religion needs to 'Get Out'. It just need more concorrency, people choose the Church ISP, no pression here. If its a good service, why can't we join both? Think on Microsoft Prayer 2000!
gcc -o sig sig.c sig.c:4: #error NO SIG FOUND make: *** [sig] error 1
First, I admit that no one in the Church is perfect, and that many in the Church have done ungodly acts through the ages. However, as a whole, I do believe that the Church is based on the truth of Jesus Christ, and it's mission is good.
It's amazing to me that the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people over the centuries by the Church can be dismissed so easily. Doesn't the commandment say "Thou shalt not kill?" Did the Church find a loophole in the commandment that allows them to kill those who don't believe the same things that they do? How can people follow a religion that is responsible for so much suffering and death?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
there are some porno-sites with not so obvious names, and furthermore some of them have non-latin URLs (like there are quite a few in Cyrillic). no way in a hell they can catch and filter those. and even in english - there are plenty with innocently looking urls. I won't give out any. Do you own searches, if you're really that dedicated. And playboy isn't really a porno anyway. (well, may be from the Catholic Church's perspective)
There have been hypocrites, but why people have a prolem with Christ, a man who had nothing to gain by dying for us of His own will, is really beyond me.
I don't think I've seen anyone here saying anything against Christ himself. He got killed on a stick. If he was truly the son of God, then he got off easy. Many people die much more horrible deaths for no reason at all. Most people have a problem with the Church, which is largely responsible for thousands upon thousands of horrible deaths. Whatever Christ tried to teach, it obviously didn't get through to the people who lead the church.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
One more thing...
Even belief in the separation of Church and State is simply an Atheist faith
How is that a faith? Is the fact that I think my cat is cute also a faith? What about believing that the chair on the other side of the room is blue? Is that also a faith? Make some sense. Separation of Church and State is not a faith. It's more like an attempt at self-preservation. It's one of the most intelligent decisions that the founders of the United States ever made. I'd rather not have the Church ruling my life just because they believe that some guy who died 2000 years ago was the son of God and they think that they can figure out what the heck the Bible is actually saying (if anything, it rambles quite a bit and it's often tough to figure out what is to be taken literally and what is just God going on a rant).
The question is this: What is true, what has eternal implications, and what are we willing to do?
Since the first couple parts of that question can't be answered conclusively (unless God himself decides to make an undisputeable appearance again. Maybe go on Oprah or something), I think that Christians should just believe what they want to believe and leave everyone else the hell alone. Don't try to enforce your morality by making it law. If you believe that looking at porn is wrong, then don't do it. Don't let your kids do it. Don't try to make the decision for the rest of us though. Quit trying to get crap like the CDA passed into law. Quit trying to publicly humiliate and shame people who don't share your beliefs. If other people calling themselves Christian try to do those things, perhaps then you can have a discussion with them about minding their own business. Is it possible to be a good Christian without forcing others to comply with your beliefs? History seems to say no. I hope that's not true.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
This merely expands this crap into cyberspace.
However, the reason why I posted has nothing to do with this. If anybody using the Catholic ISP as a provider can read this (this site is probably banned) try some Catholic Church and Catholic organization sites and see how much their censorware software will let you read. Try for controversial subjects.
Let us know the results.
If they've managed to come up with censorware that works, they've finally managed an authentic miracle.
My guess is they've pulled off something a hell of a lot funnier.
Tech Public Policy stuff
The Catholic Church is heavily influential in Spain, Italy, and the Republic of Ireland (to pull three off the top of my head -- there are many more), and they manage to maintain something very like a civilized society. Granted there are abortion issues in all three countries that some would view as repressive, but outside of that I'd hardly compare them with Afghanistan.
Well well well. The Catholic sect has tried its best to cover this but ... Ahem ... Let's check all those countries one by one ...
Spain: there was a civil war in the 30s there ... the republicans lost to the Franco militias backed by Hitler. Franco was also backed by the catholics, though probably not officially. The republicans were considered evil commies.
Italy: El Duce was praised for reestablishing good relationship between the Vatican and the Italian state, and gave them quite a few of the prerogatives they now consider for granted.
Ireland is another story, as their enemy were the 'evil' British protestants. It's then easy for the Catholics to impose all kind of their stupid rules.
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If what you report is correct, then the church is not currently doing anything incorrect.
Their history does not encourage me to believe that this will continue. It rather encourages the belief that they are attempting to acquire a total monopoly over the ISP business before imposing their "revisions to the service contract". I would be very glad if this were incorrect, but it will likely require a few decades to determine this (unless, of course, it is correct, in which case it may be determined much sooner).
Then there is the question of what will happen when the next pope / bishop/ whoever-decides-the-policy takes over.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Nitpicking doesn't change the point. They have a history of being untrustworthy. And some people have even lived long enough to report it.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
The Catholic Church is a rather schitzo institution. On the one hand, it has a long history of intellectual thought (go to your local library and look at volumes of "The Catholic Encyclopedia" for examples of that intellectual thought). On the other hand, it also has a long history of suppression of intellectual thought that is viewed as incompatible with the Catholic faith. How to reconcile those two views of the Catholic church -- our history of intellectual thought vs. tolerance of ideas that seem anti-Catholic -- has long been a issue within the Catholic community. Even today, it is a current and active issue within the Catholic community, especially at U.S. Catholic universities.
All in all, I must say that I prefer a religion that is willing to debate such issues to one that says that all intellectual thought and discussion about moral issues is a waste of time (such as, e.g., the Southern Baptists, which bluntly state that all you need is faith and the words of the Bible and forget all that intellectual stuff).
[Note: I had a somewhat schitzo religious upbringing. Summers were spent with my Southern Baptist grandparents, Vacation Bible School, etc., winters were Catholic school and catechism... so my compare/contrast, while perhaps not fair to the Baptists, certainly does reflect personal experience.]
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
__________________
What's next? $29.95 monthly subscription to see nuns sing and dance to the tune of the Gloria??? I'm a Filipino Internet user ang my advice to them is, with all the things they consider "bad stuff", better start listing what can be viewed instead of what can't be viewed. Trust me, this list is gonna be a whole lot shorter than if it were the other way around.
Reminds me of that Ministry song, "Jesus built my ISP"
TCP/IP packets sure beats that communion host anyways =P
E.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
many people die much more horrible deaths
The Romans used crucifixion as a method of torture and perfected it over centuries (for this reason, citizens were never crucified). From the flogging that tore open the back and often fractured vertebrae and exposed the tender nerves to rubbing contact with the rough wood to the forcing the victim to carry the heavy cross to his place of execution to the nerve-severing nails through the wrists to the slow suffocation as the victim could no longer make the necessary movements (scraping against the woon) to breathe, crucifixion was (and still is, by the way, for many Christians in places such as Sudan) the most painful death imaginable.
December 25th is obviously ruled out as Christ's actual birthdate by the simple fact that shepherds were sleeping in the fields. December 25th, though probably selected to divert attention from pagan holidays, just might have been the actual day the Magi came to visit the baby Jesus... take a look at this.
Kindof hypocritical considering the reputed sexual tastes of the average Catholic Priest. (I'm sure you've heard the stories...) But then again the Church is well known for hypocrisy.
Ashes of Empires and bodies of kings,
The truth about Michael
Looks like some shit-head moderator got jealous of the third post.
Ashes of Empires and bodies of kings,
The truth about Michael
Bitaw pre, I created my own version of a server-based porn bocking system running on Linux (based on squidGuard and squid). I used it on a conservative cybercafe here in Iligan. Blocks around 85% of all porn sites. Pretty cool!
_Bisaya rulez!
crucifixion was (and still is, by the way, for many Christians in places such as Sudan) the most painful death imaginable.
Possibly. I know that suffocation is one of the worse ways to go, but I've heard of some grisly forms of torture that eventually lead to death. People can be frighteningly creative sometimes.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
A local rabbi, commenting on his Catholic counterparts, was heard to say something akin to:
When you think about it [at least in past] their best minds don't get to send their genes to the future [since priests, monks & nuns are presumably celebate].
Has anybody researched anything related to this point?
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At the same time, I give some Catholics credit for archiving bits of knowledge, e.g. during the dark ages, when many were trying to help us to lose it.
On the other hand, I seem to recall that there were lots of times when laymen were kept from reading/debating this faith's basic documents, either by choice of language or other means.
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About 30 years ago, I enjoyed the cost-free use (including lending rights) of the library at a US-based Catholic university (having never been connected with it in any way).
By contrast, government-funded Australian universities require members of the public to pay an annual fee before one can borrow "its" books and - after it's paid - they still don't allow access to many online databases (licensed only for student/staff use...).
But then, Australia seems to be getting that way, in recent years. :(
Yes, but do remember, the Phillipines is a predominately Catholic area, so naturally, most of them are going to go with the Church for thier net access, the same way they trust thier `souls` with said Church. It looks an awful lot like they are getting a stranglehold. And I won't get on the topic of Internet censorship.
It seems like most people are missing what I think is the main point of the article: it yet again demonstrates the business nature of organized religion, and Catholic church is right on top of it.
I betcha they don't pay taxes on that ISP venture either...
Arcady Genkin
Just remember that in the United States the predominant Christian denomination is not the Church (the Roman Catholic Church) but rather the churches (the Protestant denominations).
No surge protector will protect my surge. - Commodore64
Yes, but even some of them seem to have forgotten their history. They still seem to regard the Pope as being one step down from God. In addition, they are taking the same path as the Catholic Church did in their attempts to enforce their beliefs on others. Sure, they don't actually kill people for it right now (or at least they don't take credit for it when their members do). They do certainly try to twist the arms of politicians by labeling them as immoral or unethical if they don't support legislation that is blatantly unconstitutional like the CDA. Get enough of that sort of crap passed into law and I bet texas will be the first state to execute someone for distributing pornography via their website. Sounds like a joke right now, but things don't usually stay the same for very long. All we need is a couple of Columbine-equivalents dealing with porn instead of guns and the politicians will be fighting each other to see who can introduce the most draconian anti-porn legislation.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Aw, come on, don't insult me by twisting my words to more easily sute your purposes.
;)
In case you really did misss my piont (and that would be diffacult, even for a layman to do), here it is in even simpler terms:
My point was: Its not the religion's fault it it's leaders arn't being responcable and respectful enough to follow thier own rules. If the religious leaders want us to follow them (and thier religion), they should at least try to set a better example.
The same can easly be said about pollitions.