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Comparing the DVRs?
zonker asks: "We are
getting hooked up with Dish
Network Satellite TV this weekend and opted to go with one of
their PVR
(personal video recorder) plans. I started wondering if anyone has
done any technical reviews or comparisons of the video quality (not
just features) of the various digital video recorders out there (TiVo, DishPVR,
ReplayTV, etc.). I am curious
mostly about recorded video quality compared to the source video.
All of them make claims to have various recording 'speeds' like
VCR's. VCR's analog output is predictable (fuzzy recording with bits
of static here and there, worse when signal quality is bad).
However digital recorders have varying levels of pixelization. I was
curious which ones fared the best and if anyone has comments on
either systems?"
All it does is record the stream sent down by the sat, so what you're watching is what you would get if it was live TV. I belive UltimateTV works the same way, so I would assume most dish PVRs work this way.
Free Mac Mini
Personally, what sold me on Tivo when I got it a year and a half ago was the great community at the AVS Tivo Forum. More info than you could ever want and a very supportive bunch for all kinds of questions. The Tivo FAQ is a good place to get answers to the basic questions first, though.
Although I'm a big fan of TiVo, in your case I'd reccommend a DishPVR if all you're concerned about is picture quality, unless you can get DirectTV in which case I'd reccommend a DirecTiVo.
DishPVR, DirectTiVo and UTV all store the satellite bitstream directly, so there is no quality setting, since there is no further compression.
Dishnetwork is the only DVB broadcaster in the states. I noticed that Happauge makes an DVB Receiver Card and was curious if anyone has picked up a real, honest-to-God DVB broadcast on a PC? The cards have the capabilities for conditional access modules (smart cards) so everything could be set up legitimately.
Why isn't there more open support for this? You'd think that Dishnetwork would promote this type of thing.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
These Tivo devices entrance me; there are many shows I would love watching more frequently, but my schechdule (is that how on spells the word?) often conflicts with the time-slots of my favourite programmes. However, as I looked into the getting of a DVR player, I was saddened to see that their services do not extend beyond the United States! Does anybody know when or maybe if the programming services these interesting devices will be available in Europe? I would love to have another Linux box on my TV to go with all the other ones I have around my house ^_^.
Sincerely yours,
Chloë
DirecTiVo.
Of course, since you opted to go with DishNetwork that doesn't apply in your case. But to anyone else who hasn't made that decision, DirecTV + TiVo is extreme dual-tuner goodness. It also has the added bonus of storing the raw MPEG stream from the satellite instead of decoding and recompressing programs.
Only on slashdot can a posting be rated "Score -1, Insightful".
Subject says it all. I think it will depend on how other countries cable companies offer the Television Guide data to companies like Tivo. You can basically use a Tivo in ANY country, but its the guide data that needs to be sourced to make it usefull.
All of the Dish or DirectTV only DVRs record the actual data stream beamed down from the bird and do not have quality settings. PQ will be the same amongst them all, which is why features are the most often compared variables. Nothing comes close to the simplicity, maturity, and number of features available in a TiVo but since you're a Dish customer you'll still need their PVR in order to get the best PQ.
Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
I have had Dishnetwork for a few years. A friend of mine just got the 501 receiver with the PVR built in. First I didn't realize it was a PVR until I noticed the remote had some extra buttons. The machine is as quiet as a regular receiver, the video output is exactly the same as on a regular receiver, it has quite a few hours of recording time, and it is always recording, so if you happen to be watching something and you want to rewind, you can. Of course you can set the timers etc. Also if you get to an end of a show and think you now want to record it, just hit save. When I upgrade, ALL my Dish receivers will be PVR...BTW a twin tuner/PIP receiver should be coming soon.
My only experience is with the Dish Network PVR, but I've been more than pleased with it. I've seen no difference in the quality of "live" video (as recorded from the dish) versus playback, probably because it plays back the same signal that it records. On those rare times I've had signal or decoding problems, those problems are as present on playback as they were on the original signal. I just wish I could all those Buffy episodes to disc instead of video tape. :-)
the guys at tivoguide.com seem to know what they are talking about and have links to all the relevant tivo players on their site for purchase. they run through the different features as well.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
I won't be buying a DVR until they offer a non-subscription version. I just want to record stuff without VHS tapes and pause live broadcasts. I could care less about the other recording options. Can you use today's DVRs as a replacement for your VCR without any annoying hassles or subscription fees?
I've had since Friday night, and I love it. Still just playing with it though. It's great to be able to pause a movie on HBO to get up and take a leak.
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times." Bill Hicks
Buy a Tivo and don't do the subscription. It'll act like a VCR. You just manually tell it when to record...and you still get to control live TV.
I'd say after playing with all the PVRs out there, TiVo wins on all counts that I can think of. There was the question of the dual tuners, but now the DirecTivos have this as well.
Plus, UltimateTV has those really annoying commercials.
But is it prime or is it irrational? Where's the decimal point?
They are probably using either C-Cube or Zoran (or any similar MPEG2/MJPEG chips). While quality can vary from a chip to another, I'd look more at the maximum datarate that each unit is recording at. The bigger the better in terms of quality.
I hate the fact that they sell the systems with "30 hours of playback" 30 hours, you can stick 30 hours of video on a cdrom with low bitrates, it means NOTHING. What you want to check for if they don't give the true numbers, is the size of the hard drive and the minimal recording time (i.e. if they say you can record minimal of 20 hours on a 40GB drive, you do the maths for the datarate: (sorry if I don't multiply by 1024 or if I miss anything, this is intended as "raw".
So, 40GB for 20 hours.
40,000MB/(20 hours x 60 minutes x 60 secons) = 0.55MB/sec.
Mjpeg looks "okay" on a standard el-cheapo TV at about 1MB/sec. (its blocky on a vga monitor but depending on the quality of your tv, it's smooths a bit on the output so you notice it a bit less). Personnaly when I deal with video that I want to store with a good MJPEG codec, I don't go under 3-4MB/sec. For replaying with the video (i.e. decompress, add some effect, recompress) I don't go under 5MB/sec (if not uncompressed).
That's for MJPEG with 4:2:2 colorspace, if they use a DV codec, it's 4:1:1 colorspace so there's more pixel quality for the same given bandwith compared to 4:2:2 MJPEG.
Anyways I'm going off here, what you want to do is apply the above formula when you can't get the datarate and pick the highest number... you won't care if it means less storage, because you can ramp up the compression afterwars anyways. And besides, drives are going down in price everyday, and since your concern is about quality and not storage, this is one of the option you might want to look for.
I'm sure electronic-wise, aside from some extra stuff like component out or nice extras like that, the Codec level and overall theorical compressed quality is about the same from a machine to another, so probably the biggest difference (aside from the added features like component out if some don't have it) will be that number which will be hardcoded in the firmware. Some might want to go with lower values to be sure that the drive will follow (but then again most drives do over 10MB/sec sustained easily nowadays) or for any other reasons like marketting for more storage than the competition.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
I would suppose the boxes with the built in satelitte recievers would have the best quality. There is a ton of conversion involved here. The built-in box has no conversion involved.
Non-intergrated/2 boxes MPEG2 Satelitte Stream -> VBR Decoded to FBR -> downconverted to analog output -> cable to pvr, signal loss, interference, etc -> MPEG2 Vbr Conversion -> MPEG2 Decoding -> Out to TV
Intergrated box MPEG2 Satelitte Stream -> VBR already encoded, data alreay MPEG2 compressed, saved directly to disk, video remains unedited and uncompressed. -> Downconversion to analog -> Out to TV
Rumor has it that next month, EchoStar (parent company of DishNetwork) will release a HD PVR. Of course, that would require a huge drive, but there is also news that Dish ordered a slew of 120gb drives from a large storage sompany. So, more room for plain-ol broadcasts, which dont take up nearly as much room. The box has been dubbed the DishPVR 721. Oh yeah, it runs linux.
More news and stuff on the Echostar Knowledge Base. There's lots of stuff on the AVSFORUM dish network board with other info.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
From a purely ease of use standpoint (ie. not trying to hack it or upgrade it or anything just use it) Tivo has so far won me over (and is the one I ended up getting).
Instead of a remote control with lots of little hard to see buttons, Tivo's remote is actually clean and neat. Just what you need, with buttons in the size and color that make them east to find and use. It even fits nicely in the hand.
Its on screen access is clean and neat as well. I have never had a technical problem with it or any problem trying to use it.
Finally, while I have never tried hacking my Tivo, I had seen several sites that seemed to give good, clean directions for adding another hard disk and so on.
My dad has Dish and I have DirecTV with integrated Tivo. My Dad's Dish picture quality is noticably lower than the DirecTV to begin with. Not bad on a small TV but on a 36" TV you can definitely tell a difference. I've heard this is because of the way Dish and DirecTV differ in color encoding. Kind of like RGB vs YUV kind of thing.
Anyway, DirecTV can also be had with integrated Tivo (Philips, Sony, and Hughes) - there is no degregation in picture quality when viewing live, buffered, or saved TV programs. It's exactly as if it were non-Tivo. If you get a Dish or DirecTV WITHOUT the integrated Tivo then the picture quality varies from below VHS quality to slightly higher than VHS quality - but always WAY lower than digital satellie quality.
good luck.
I bought a TiVo because it runs linux and has a good hacker community, can be upgraded etc.
./'ers fix and improve it! :)
However, while I do like the TiVo, the software could be alot more flexible. There are many little things that could be improved. For example:
1) You can select to record programs by searching by name, but it only searched within a limited horizon of programming (the week or so for which it has the guide). If not found, it can be recorded. For example, you couldn't ask it to record "Mission to Mars" whenever it comes on next.
2) You can't ask it to record programs matching criteria like a particular actor, or keyword in title etc.
3) Once a program has been selected for recording, you can't change the record quality without cancelling it, finding it again via search, channel guide or whatever, and re-selecting to record it.
4) It takes 2-4 hours to process and index the program guide after making a call to TiVo! (what on earth is it doing?)
5) There are a few subtle bugs in the menu display software that sometimes cause display artifacts (rarely though).
6) If you have a partial recording of something that you are also currently recording, it doesn't distinguish between the two - so you can delete the partial until the current recording it complete
7) Sometimes the GUI is slow to respond (I assume the CPU is busy - just evert so slightly underpowered to do everything it needs. Although the record/playback seems to get highest priority - I've noticed no artifacts there)
Many other, small, but annoying things like this.
Perhaps they should Open Source the software and let us
Apart from those gripes the TiVo is good. I am impressed by the record quality and playback.
OOT: If you have a Comcast General Instrument cable box, the supplied infrared blasters for channel changing are not strong enough and you'll have to but better ones (for ~$30).
/..sig file not found - permission denied.
Obviously you can be wary when somebody says "trust me."
But trust me, try out a Tivo or similar box with the listing data. It really is a whole different beast from a simple hard disk recorder that can record shows at set times. Even though you can fully comprehend what all the features do, you won't really understand how it changes your watching of TV until you try it for a while.
I mean, I'm very up on the technology, and in many ways I feel that even before I got a box I knew better what features they were missing, but even so, there are elements you won't indentify until you sit down and use it.
With the Tivo, if you get an older box (not a new one, you need to get one of old inventory or used) you can cancel the monthly service and use it for timed recording.
And even though the data is overpriced at $9.95 (it's not really overpriced, it's just that you are paying for software upgrades and part of the box in there, but it seems like you are paying for listings) the change is remarkable.
It's not just a better UI where you browse both upcoming, live and recorded programs by name and category. It's not just the way it adjusts when programs change channel or timeslot. Not just how it records only the new shows and not the reruns, or lets you see all the different times the same show is on. And it's not just the fact that when the machine has nothing to do, it records shows that match your other tastes and puts them in spare disk space.
The key is you think about TV differently. There is an asynch pile of stuff coming in and you watch it in any order you like, at any time you like. You never watch the live TV again. Almost never, at least. The pausing live TV is a red herring feature to bring in new users, it turns out to be not useful because you don't watch live tv.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
Do not assume you can not get DBS if you are not
in the US. The Canadian snow birds take their
ExpressVu with them to Arizona. There are business
that "arrange " you subscription . Its about C$80
per year plus the DBS subscription (C$14.00/ month) The catch is the satellite is at 91W.
There is another DBS in Canada (and others) but
ExpressVu uses the same technology as Dishnetwork.
Receivers are diff but antenna set up the same.
Do a search on ExpressVu.
Besides Canadian TV has a more mellow feel than US
TV. Example: Watch the olympics on Canadian TV and
you find that there are other contries at the olympics besides the US.
baomike
A native Oregonian who misses his CTV.(CHEK)
1) You can select to record programs by searching by name, but it only searched within a limited horizon of programming (the week or so for which it has the guide). If not found, it can be recorded. For example, you couldn't ask it to record "Mission to Mars" whenever it comes on next.
Sure you can. Make a Title Wishlist for MISSION MARS and set it to auto-record. Done. That is the point of Wishlists, to record matching type things. Wishlists are in the 2.0 and up software, so if you just bought the Standalone unit, it'll only have 1.3 on there. It'll upgrade after it dials in a few times.
2) You can't ask it to record programs matching criteria like a particular actor, or keyword in title etc.
Again, use Wishlists. The possible wishlists are: Actor, Director, Keyword, Title (keyword but only in the title), and Genre.
3) Once a program has been selected for recording, you can't change the record quality without cancelling it, finding it again via search, channel guide or whatever, and re-selecting to record it.
Huh? Go to the ToDo List, find the show you want to change, hit select, then go to the "options" screen on that show. Change all the settings for that recording you like, including the quality.
4) It takes 2-4 hours to process and index the program guide after making a call to TiVo! (what on earth is it doing?)
Indexing the new data into it's database. However, this does tell me you have 1.3 software and not 2.0. The newer 2.0 software indexes in the background.
5) There are a few subtle bugs in the menu display software that sometimes cause display artifacts (rarely though).
Mostly fixed in 2.0 and up (2.5 is out now).
6) If you have a partial recording of something that you are also currently recording, it doesn't distinguish between the two - so you can delete the partial until the current recording it complete
Huh? I fail to understand this one, but all recordings are treated separately. If you record something and then it doesn't finish so you record it again later, those are separate and treated separately.
7) Sometimes the GUI is slow to respond (I assume the CPU is busy - just evert so slightly underpowered to do everything it needs. Although the record/playback seems to get highest priority - I've noticed no artifacts there)
Yes, it it a tad slow to respond at times. This was improved, but not fixed, in 2.0 and up.
In short, wait until you download the new software before passing judgement. The new software is tremendous compared to 1.3. It'll download 2.5 for you in under a week or two of first setting it up.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Not too long ago sky came out with a new PVR system called Sky+ which they are now starting to hype (though this questions if it is released). What's interesting is that sky have left Tivo to persue this option from Pace. One of the touted advantages was that the Sky+ will record the actual broadcast stream direct to disk, but I can't help but think the real reason for the change in tack from sky is that they wish to have more control over the capabilities of their customers (i.e. no Network card streaming hacks please).
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
it doesn't matter how many hours you get initially because you can easily upgrade the internal harddisk...a 120 Gig drive will store over 100 hours of recorded material.
follow the (idiot-proof) instructions outlined here
The three big ones for Dish based setups (DirecTivo's, UltimateTV's, and DishPVR's) all record the actual digital stream coming from the satellite. No encoding is done in the unit, so what you see on the feed is what you get on the recording. This doesn't mean there's no artifacts, it means that the artifacts will be the same as if you were watching it "live".
The other two major ones (Tivo standalone units, ReplayTV) are mostly comparable in picture quality.
Tivo has 4 picture quality settings, that range the spectrum pretty well, with "Best" being very close to live, and "Basic" being about VCR quality, but slightly sharper. Replay has 3 quality settings, I believe, and they are mostly the same as Tivo, picture wise.
Audio wise, it seems as if the Replay lowers the bitrate on the audio as well as the video in the lower quality settings, but this may be untrue or a rumor. Tivo definitely uses the same audio quality regardless of the quality setting. It sounds pretty good and I've not noticed any weirdness on Tivo audio except for some loss on the rear channel on Dolby Pro-Logic signals from time to time. Neither unit can record Dolby Digital, while the Dish/DTV-based units can and have digital outputs as well.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I was suprised to discover that Tivo captures video at 352x480, with 32khz audio. That is disturbingly low.
This may not seem like much of a problem considering that NTSC broadcast maxxes out around 440 pixels. However at 352x480 the mpeg macroblocks are quite large, and any macroblock artifacts will be quite noticeable.
The "higher quality" capture options on Tivo only adjust the bitrate given to the mpeg, but the video resolution and audio rate remain the same.
It's a shame Tivo doesn't use higher resolutions for higher quality modes.
I still want to build my own set top box. I keep doing the research and finding possible hardware parts and code to run on it.
Slim, black desktop cases are hard to find, but are out there. "Micro-Flex" type ATX motherboards help matters.
Anybody else working on something like this?
The 721 model is NOT for HDTV. The 921 which is HDTV for all we know might never come out (it probably wouldnt be introduced until after the merger gets approved/denied). The 721 has dual tuners, 75 hours of recording time (but a 100GB HD, they are most likely setting aside some HD space for video on demand, music on demand, etc), USB/ethernet connections (imagine downloading guide info over broadband instead of a phone line or satellite). Anyways..
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
Here at my apartment, my roommates and I have DirecTiVo and its great. There is definitely no drop in the picture quality for recorded programming. One of the best features is the ability to pause live TV for up to 30 minutes. Basically, you see a show you want to watch, pause it, troll Slashdot for 30 minutes, and then go back and watch the show, fast forwarding through all the commercials. What a wonderful world we live in.
----
Striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next leap, will be the leap ho
YHBT. YHL. HAND.
And what are these fluxions? The velocities of evanescent increments. And what are these same evanescent increments? They are neither finite quantities, nor quantities infinitely small, nor yet nothing. May we not call them ghosts of departed quantities?
At least that's what I've been told and found. We have Dish Network and I'd love to get a PVR like Tivo, but no one supports them. Them being Dish Network.
Oh well. We'll have to stick with good old-fashioned VCR's. :-)
Take care,
Brian
--
Just a few free Palm m100's left...
--
The DISH PVR simply records the originally satellite MPEG2 source - so it should be the same quality as the originally received signal you get from your satellite. I have the 501 and note no difference between viewing live or recorded programs, even in S-video. However, if you have not already purchased the unit, you may want to check on the ReplayTV unit - it claims to work with satelllites and would have the benefit of being usable with cable or any other service you may have or change to in the future, while the Dish PVR will ONLY record from DISH satellite. Don't get me wrong - I love my unit, but I also have local cable and really wish I could record off it as well.
Does anyone think it would be possible to get someone with TiVo, copy the linux data to a CD-R, then make your own PVR without the charge with your own linux box? (might not be ethical... but would it work?)
I haven't had experience with any newer Dish PVRs, but I did use the Dishplayer 7200 for a while. I had used a Tivo before it, and use a Tivo now. I don't know how the newer Dish PVRs compare, but if they're anything like the 7200, then I'd recommend the Tivo.
The Dishplayer 7200 did have excellent picture quality, and the ability to browse the listing of recorded shows and to set up new recordings while live TV is still displayed in a smaller picture in the corner was also an advantage over the Tivo.
The Tivo (the normal unit for use with Dish, not the DirecTV version) has comparable picture quality at "best" recording quality, but can't hold as many shows at that quality as the Dishplayer. The Tivo has better options for setting up regular recordings, and its practice of filling unused space with "recommended" recordings is pretty nice. You also have more control over when (or whether) a given recording is deleted automatically on the Tivo.
I gave up on the Dishplayer and went with the Tivo again for two reasons. The first was that the Tivo downloads program information in the background, allowing you to continue using the unit, while the Dishplayer would need to lock the viewer out for 45 minutes around 3am to download program data. I found that the only thing that keeps the update from happening on the Dishplayer was either user intervention or a scheduled recording - if you were, say, recording something from the Dishplayer to a VCR, the Dishplayer had no problem interrupting the playback to update.
The other reason, the biggest reason, was that my Dishplayer 7200 was unstable. It wasn't often, but it was often enough - sometimes I'd make a selection, and the unit would reboot, an action that would cancel a recording in progress - very annoying. It would also sometimes lock up, and I'd discover hours later that it had missed any shows that were on during the lock-up period (I'd have to turn it off then back on to reset it). Finally, and worst, I twice had spontaneous resets delete _all_ recorded programs. That was heartbreaking.
With the Tivo, I've had occasional unexpected reboots that have interrupted recordings, but they haven't been as frequent as the Dishplayer, and they've never resulted in anything worse than one interrupted recording. The reduced recorded show capacity and requirement for a phone line to download updates is far outweighed by the stability of the unit and its flexible recording options.
Again, I don't know if newer Dish PVRs use the same software as the 7200 (which was capable of WebTV access as well). If they don't, there's hope for them. But I haven't had anything to complain about with my Tivo.
Naked.
Get a replayTV. No subscription to pay for.
I recently bought one (Philips with Tivo)for several reasons. To begin with it will decode Dolby Digital and Dolby surround sound, and has an optical output to send it to my home theatre receiver. So I got a higher end receiver, with the added feature of Tivo, cheaper than either the Tivo or Dolby surround would have been. It took a while to setup (as compared to the original box, but the advantages gained for $99 over the existing box were really quite great. The dolby surround version was something like $299+ the last time I checked.
Being able to watch one channel while I record another is a feature I find I use quite often. I've had DirecTv for a year now and haven't been sorry at all. (of course the cable guy was a little miffed that I used their wire to get it into the house, and they had to run new cable for the internet cable), And it beats the Digital cable quality as the run from my dish is less than 50ft, rather than 15 miles(even with amps etc.)
I have it on it's own UPS (I had a spare) which is actually pretty cool, as I can watch TV even when the power goes out (for a while anyway). Makes you realize that if it hadn't been for Mr Edison and his staff, we would all be sitting around in the dark watching tv...
They have $49.95 new customer and $79 existing.
-chaezewhiz
Heaven in a can
does anyone know if any of the DVRs support the VCRPlus! standard. it would be nice to purchase a nonsubscription DVR and use vcrplus codings from the
newspaper to handle the automatic recording.
I don't understand why people speak so frequently of Tivo.
That is similar to people speaking of MS Windows -- yes, it may be popular but the product still sucks.
Replay -- Pay once, subscribe forever to the program guide for free.
Tivo -- Pay monthly for the subscription to their program guide.
Yes, Replay may be slightly more expensive but most people plan to keep their Replay box for several years. During those years, think of not having to pay subscription fees. After two years, a Tivo user has paid more than the price difference in subscription charges.
If the superior choice is not obvious to you, you shouldn't be reading Slashdot.
This post encoded with ROT26. If you can read it, you've violated the DMCA. Handcuffs please, sergeant.
Check out the TiVo wishlists, you can do all that type of stuff.
As for the 2-4 hr indexing - you can still use your unit during the indexing, and the indexing happens after the phonecall, usually in the middle of the night. Ths is never an issue for me.
Don't get me wrong. I love my Tivo. Works so much better for me than a VCR. I can't count the number of shows I've missed because I forgot to program the VCR, or I made some minor mistake in the programming process (when is it on? which tape has enough room? did i set up the weekly recording list properly? did I remember to put in the right tape and push the right button before I left for work? should I leave the clock on manual and risk a blackout, or did KTEH finally fix their sync box?). Not to mention shows I never knew about because scanning TV listings is boring.
So I go through some menus and just tell the Tivo to record this show or that. And it does. Unless the Tivo has already decided to record it on its own. Perfection, no?
No. There's still too much that can go wrong. Browse through the Tivo forum and you'll find dozens of posts from people hassling with weird problems. Disk errors. Software bugs. Signal acquisition failures. System crashes.
The awful truth is that DVRs are not consumer appliances. They're mutated PCs that are sold bundled with a TV listing database service. I can cope with that -- but then, I've been second-guessing neurotic computer systems for longer than I care to think about. (If I got one of those T shirts, a lot of people would have to dust off their typewriters.) And I still get screwed sometimes when a software upgrade screws up my box and I miss a bunch of shows before I impose a fix through a combination of persistence, intuition, and blind luck. It would be a lot easier of they didn't try to hide the basic platform from the user. But then, they'd never get backing if they didn't pretend this was a consumer item, not a hacker toy.
Perhaps Replay TV is better. (The basic technology does seem to be a little better thought out.) Perhaps TiVo would be better if they didn't keep doing new software releases. I doubt it though. Everybody has to use the same basic off-the-shelf technology to sell this toy at a reasonable price. So we're stuck with immature, kludged together technology. If you can cope with that, OK. Otherwise, stick with your VCR.
All that being said, they're isn't a lot of difference between Tivo and ReplayTV. Once you factor in the lifetime subscription for a Tivo (which you have no choice about, unless you plan to smash the Tivo exactly 19 months after you buy it) the prices are the same. Features are pretty similar. (There are claims that Tivo is deliberately trying to make it hard to not watch commercials, but I have little trouble skipping them.) Tivo has an active hacker community (even aftermarket upgraders), but Replay technology strikes me as more extensible, with its built-in IP support.
A major difference is that Tivo is part of the entertainment industry, while SonicBlue is an outsider. That's not a clear plus for either one -- Tivo boxes are less likely to be orphaned, but Replay boxes have functionality that isn't dictated by Hollywood lawyers.
Bottom line -- if you must buy a DVR, buy the one that has the features you like and you find easiest to use.
Works fine.
Tivo service provides schedule, Time, and Program content. I am already getting the first two, with my subscribtion to DirectTV. Instead of making the TIVO Box call some TIVO server nightly, just send the data down in the Satellite signal.
The DirecTV/TIVO box is much cheaper than the TIVO, since it does not require an MPEG2 encoder. All the TIVO information can be sent down in the Satellite data, don't make us pay a subscribtion fee, just charge us a fair price on the equipment.
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
I purchased a standalone TiVo box for regular cable TV in August of '99. I can say I'm very happy with it. It will change the way you watch TV.
I didn't use/investigate the ReplayTV version because I am a Sony Bigot and I bought the Sony PVR which is TiVo based. I can say that the hacking side of TiVo is very thourough and if you want to tear apart your TiVo and upgrade the capacity, or add an ethernet card or something fun it's out there. Though I have not investigated the ReplayTV side of the house to see what they offer to the hacking community.
The guide information, and it's ability to 'learn' what you want to watch is very nice. It picks shows, sometimes stuff I've never heard of but ends up being something I like. I was able to catch every Babylon 5 episode and catch the few I missed during the real airing.
Also, it's great for new parents. Tape your shows while yer new two month old baby screams, and then when you are fighting them to sleep late at night you can watch stuff you TiVo'd instead of the 65 of 67 channels of Paid Programming that is on between 1:00AM and 6:00AM when your child is wide awake (at least mine is)
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
I have a Replay unit. I think there are number of things that would quality including the size and resolution of the screen.
On my 19 inch TV, and rarely watching any sports I am very happy with the quality of the video, and I record at the lowest "speed."
I do find sometimes that the audio and video greats slightly out of sync, although I can't prove it...
http://www.hawknest.com/
- change channels on digital cable or satellite (I don't know if a personal computer can do that without IR)
- automatically get program listings via the Internet for digital cable or satellite, hopefully with categories
- have some utility to convert to Divx or 3ivx
- web-based or other GUI interface
On a relevant tangent, there was recently released some software for MacOS 10 which converts from DVD to everything else. This is the best stuff I've found.The Dish PVR is probably your best bet if all you care about is picture quality, since it's the only one which will store the stream directly. That said, I hear that the Dish PVR really doesn't have much in the way of nice features like the other PVRs like being able to set up show searches. It also can only record Dish stuff, so if you also need cable or antenna for some shows you can't record those.
If the Dish PVR doesn't meet your needs and you have some kind of broadband connection (DSL or Cable) you might want to take a look at one of the new Replay 4000s. Although they're more expensive than TiVo, they don't require any additional service plan. Additionally, they have some really cool features.
The biggest one for me is the commercial skip. Other PVRs have fast forward or sometimes a 30 second skip (like the older Replays). But the new ones actually have the ability to skip the whole set of commercials automatically. It works really well too. I've had my Replay 4040 for a week now and the commercial skip has successfully skipped over 90% of the commercials on the shows I watch. It makes it real nice when you're watching TV while eating or otherwise don't want to have to regularly touch the remote. Of course it also has all the standard PVR features too and you can do show sharing and it doesn't use your phone line to connect, it uses your ethernet connection. But to me the killer feature is commercial skip- I wonder when the other vendors will get around to including it.
Features I'm looking for in a DVR...
HARDWARE
*Integrates nicely with my existing rats' nest of cabling. It can't eat up precious i/o jacks, particularly if it's going to presume to add Macrovision to the output. RCA/Coax/Optical Sound/S-Video, etc.
*In fact, let's dump Macrovision altogether. (I suspect it might slip through 17 USC 1201(k) being a digital device)
*CDRW for archival purposes (fully legal, falls within the Sony case) eventually upgradable to some manner of DVDRW
*2-4 HD bays, with instructions printed on the interior regarding installation, and a backup CD if the DVR software is ever lost. (but frankly, it ought to be able to automatically format unrecognized disks and install the sw itself, sans disk)
*PCI slots so that additional cards, including TV tuners, MPEG2 encoders, etc. can be added
*10bT ethernet to utilize broadband connections if available, and permit control from computers on the LAN.
*Good programmable learning remote, plus well-documented, modifiable codes on the unit for integration w/ existing setups, etc. Needs analog volume knob, definately. Backlit buttons and labels.
*User servicable (except for shielded power supply)
SOFTWARE
*Good UI -- I understand TiVo's decent, but it doesn't strike me as excellent the couple of times I've played with it.
*Storage of previous versions of sw on system so that a) features can't be changed unilaterally by the developer w/o permission of user, b) user can always go back to something he liked better
*No tracking of demographic information whatsoever, in any way, not even an opt-in
*Saves data in easily read format, easily shifted to other storage media.
*Responds to remote commands, e.g. for programming it at work
*Autodetect ads and edit them out/skip them
*30 second skip just in case autodetect doesn't work (including setting marks to assist the autodetect if a show will be viewed repeatedly)
*Good FF/RW just in case you need to resort to that instead. Did I mention that I absolutely won't tolerate ads?
*For God's sake no ads on the UI. That genius deserves a cruel death.
*VCD support, DVD support, eventually DVDRW support -- primarily for offline archive disks, but also legit purchased VCDs and DVDs.
*Sets its own damn clock, has comprehensive rules for daylight savings, leap days, etc.
MISC
*No monthly fees
*Can obtain data (possibly with some additional third-party software) from any source, e.g. TVGuide Online, Digital Cable, etc.
*1 yr warranty
---
That's most of what I can think of, offhand... of course, I don't exactly watch a hell of a lot of TV, and still use a pair of rabbit ears for reception, but it'd be nice to have an archive of ad-free Simpsons, Family Guy, Futurama, Nova, Law & Order, etc. that I could watch in decently high quality on the TV.
As always, cutting out every last damn second of advertising is of paramount priority; not having to pay beyond the up front cost, and not having demographic information collected is up there too.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Basically, when you purchase a PVR/DVR, you're leaving the quality choices up to the makers, as well as most other aspects of the hardware and how it operates.
;-)
That's why I'm just going to build my own, as many others have. When I next upgrade my PC, I'll be cramming the old one into a small set-top case with a 10x DVD-ROM, a 100GB HD (or more, depending on pricing at the time), and an ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon (or Radeon 8500, depending on price at the time), a RealMagic Hollywood+ DVD decoder, an SB Audigy Value, and a NIC.
Most of those components I already have, and some of them aren't really necessary--like the H+ card, since the ATI card also has iDCT-assisted DVD decoding, or the DVD drive at all if you just want a PVR and not an integrated DVD playback. I included the H+ card on the list just because I already have one, and I prefer its image quality on a standard TV although the ATI decoder looks better on a high-res TV, and because some rare titles have gklitches on one or the other just as some rare titles have glitches on regular set-top DVD players. Back-ups are always good.
I can't speak for what Linux software is available, but I plan my device to be based on a stripped-down WinXP kernel once http://www.98lite.net finishes their Windows XP version of their famous installer, which lets you strip away almost any unneeded part of the typical install. As such, there's some great and polished software available that's perfect for this--the ATI card's MultiMedia Center, for instance, which includes an integrated Guide+ feature and DVR capabilities. The A-i-W 8500 card will even come with a remote that looks perfect, with an integrated mouse device and everything, and runs on RF instead of IR so you can even control the thing from another room through thick walls. Tom's Hardware recently gave a great review of a pre-release sample.
Best of all, when you roll your own there's total control over encoding and NO COPY PROTECTION. Why worry about losing saved shows in case of disaster or hard drive malfunction or hardware burnout requiring a return to a stupid company which reformats the drive? That's what the NIC is for. Transfer them to a back-up HD or when DVD-R drives and media get cheap enough, burn 'em to DVD. Lots of flexibility and expandability. And I know from personal experience that the All-in-Wonder cards encode a beautiful MPEG-2 stream in real-time with a decent Athlon processor.
The only feature my box won't have that a commercial PVR will is the record-shows-it-thinks-you-may-like feature, which I personally wouldn't find useful anyway. The only feature a DVR integrated with a satellite receiver has that my box won't is digital-to-digital transfer, which isn't such a huge boon when you remember that it doesn't save the digital feed from the satellite, it *re-encodes* it so that there'll be some quality issue anyway. sing high-quality analogue cables shouldn't introduce any more noticeable quality issues.
It's something to consider, and maybe someone else here can point to Linux software with similar functions?
Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws"-Tacitus
Yes you could buy an external TiVo or ReplayTV for your DishNetwork box.
But once you decide digital audio is important to you, then you MUST go with the integrated PVR since no external PVRs have digital audio input.
And as others have said, same with zero loss video. Any external PVR is going to have to redigitize the video instead of recording the original data stream.
You should have considered your PVR options before choosing DishNetwork since the DishPlayer software is not so great.
That argument is old. I don't know about now, but when I made my choice for TiVo, Replay only had one week's worth of programming, where TiVo has two. So, am I as misinformed about that as you are about TiVo subscriptions?
I have had DishNetwork for a couple of years because it has better programming than DirectTv (which I had the year before that). I got a Tivo this summer, and have been so happy with it. I actually looked at the DishPVR, but the features that come with the Tivo subscription are really worth it (and there is little to no information on what you get with the DishPVR subscription).
Since the 2.5 update of Tivo, and the addition of variable bit rate encoding, I get about 14 - 16 hours on my "30 hr tivo" at Best quality. I find that any more TV than that and I don't watch it anyway. Also, Tivo is about to beta 4 digit support for those extra 9000 channels that DishNetwork has. I'm psyched to be able to get the Research Channel on Tivo over the next couple of weeks.
Also, now that Echostar (DishNetwork) is trying to buy Hughes (DirectTv) (story here) I am really hoping for DishTivo.
There is no silver bullet. Plus, werewolves make better neighbors than zombies or vampires anyway.
This whole conversation is many months out of date. Last week SonicBlue started shipping the ReplayTV 4000. It will be a few years before TiVO and UltimateTV catch up to Replay now.
Second, the Tivo's a neat little toy. A couple of guys brought theirs in to our last LUG meeting- one already modded, one to mod in front of us. The ethernet card was a nice touch, as was having a bash prompt. Backing up the new box and dropping the big Maxtor in was a breeze, but he didn't want the network connection- it overrides the modem and he only has a phone jack in his living room.
I was impressed with how his viewing habits have changed, and I was impressed with the picture quality. It looked like crap- recorded on the lowest setting, getting bumped over to a laptop and shot through a projector to the wall about 10 feet away, making a nice, big image. If it looked like that on a TV I'd have laughed, but this was fine.
Anyway, www.9thtee.com is a great place for the hardware. They come highly recommended. I'll be damned if I buy a subscription box that's fscking crippleware, though.
I spent a year in Iraq looking for WMD and all I found was this lousy sig.
All PVRs suck, they miss the most important unified features.
... diff price options.)
1. built in CDRW or at least an empty tray for one.
2. if not CDRW, have built in DVD drive since its already doing mpeg2 out, play the damn DVDs. (or combo dvd/cdrw
3. built in Digital TV tuner, we already have mpeg2 decoder, so how hard is it to put in a $40 tuner.
4. the PVR would be simpler to record digitaltv.
5. and ofcourse beause of digitaltv, progresive output.
How hard is this to do? Are all companies so lame and have zero guts and inovation? I dont want 4 boxes sitting in my lounge room, i want ONE.
DTV/DVR/DVD in one would rock since they all share common mpeg2 decoders.
If chineese DVDs can be made for $99, then whats a $40 tuner + $120 HD and some software.
I bought a Hauppauge WIN-TV PVR (PCI) card for video capture. It has a hardware MPEG-2 encoder with many settings for quality from 2mb/sec to the ridiculously high 12mb/sec with the option of constant or variable bitrate. After testing I settled on 4mbit/sec VBR which looks great - sometimes it's easy to forget I'm not watching a live broadcast. Importantly it also has a "pause" feature just like a commercial PVR which is great for dealing with the amount of calls I get from clients at all hours. Output to the TV is via S-VHS from an old GeForce 1 card that has TV-out built in. initially I wanted to use the MPEG decoder card from my DVD kit for output but after testing, the output from the geforce is so close in quality I just use it, plus then I get to use the PC even while it's recording (the hardware encoder means no dropped frames ever). The box is just a celeron 900 with a half gig of ram running win2k - there is a linux driver available for the Hauppauge on sourceforge but the PC is part of my render farm (I'm a 3D animator by trade) and 3dsmax only runs on windows (for now).
The software that ships with the Hauppauge is, well, shitty. It works fine but the interface sucks, especially when you've used showshifter (www.showshifter.com) though from reading showshifter's forums apparently it will soon support the WintTV PVR board. In the meantime I have simply "frontended" the Hauppage software using scripting in Automate from Unisyn. I've bound all the major features to the cute rubber buttons on the internet keyboard on my coffee table and I've even been able to do things like have the scroll-lock light flash when recording (for when we're not watching TV via the PC). For scheduling I go to the Aussie TV guide at sofcom.com.au to pick out my weeks viewing - the lounge box has winvnc on it so I can program it from my office or even start recording if I see something good and don't have time to run out to the lounge. I use PowerDVD for mpeg playback, mainly cause you can fast forward and rewind using the scroll wheel on the mouse - trez chic
For the future I just ordered a Redrat2 IR controller from www.redrat.co.uk to give the box control over my satellite decoder, and I plan to add functionality like being able to email the box to program it etc. I also use the box as our stereo to play MP3's and I've recently begun ripping (my own!!) most watched DVDs to my server's 160 gb logical drive using smartripper to prevent my favourite DVDs getting scratched from constant use. I don't re-encode, just copy the VOB files and re-name them as
FWIW, my vote has to go for the TiVo. Of course that's because I own one.
Anyway, what I've always thought would be a cool feature is an option for slightly faster video playback - maybe around 10 percent. That would trim 6 minutes off of every hour of programming. It surely wouldn't be very hard for TiVo (et al) to implement. And it probably wouldn't even be that noticable.
Are you listening TiVo?
Just FYI....
What they did detail for the various models, and such seemed a great thing. They have great expectations, though they have been slow to market with upgrades, and new features - this they also attributed to MS.
Time will tell... anyone who has seen their hardware running the new software, I'd love to hear about it. I'm waiting to see what's up before I consider it.
Robert
WebMaster:
BinFeeds
XXX Thumbnailed Image Newsgroups but
The ATI multimedia center isn't ready for use - at least in my experience. I've had many crashes doing simple things such as watching live video and scheduling recordings. This is on two different machines with different OSs and CPUs.
Although it seems good from a feature list, it is too flakey and unstable to count on for recording programs.
You don't have many friends?
I suppose I should mention there are rebates on Sony TiVo units. I prefer Sony equipment and the $100 rebate on the SVR-2000 standalone Tivo made the deal for me.
.pdf format
0 20 131.pdf
You can download the rebate form here in
http://www.jandr.com/images/pdf/rebates/SON9_20
I've had the Dish 501 PVR for about six months and have generally been happy with it.
;)
I am not any sort of videophile, but the picture quality appears to be exactly what you get when you watch something live off the satellite, and the controls and on-screen menu system are excellent. It would be nice though, if it would hide the title of rating locked recordings from the playback menu. This could save you from embarrasing questions asked by your 8 year old.
My only major complaint with the system is that when I first got it, I always left it on. After a few weeks, it began to flake out badly. Channels would often suddenly pixellate, the audio would develop static, and every morning the system would force you to download 'program information' and lock up afterwords. The only way to fix it was to 'reset' the unit by removing and replacing the smart card.
After several rounds of this, we called their tech support and they told us to turn it off at night, so it could 'rest' (I'm NOT kidding). Deciding to play dumb consumer, I do this faithfully now, and the unit has since worked fine. My observation is that the unit is not always off even when it appears to be. You can still hear the drive spinning. I assume it runs some sort of maintenance disk check or something late at night. It also seems to periodically download software updates, noticeable only when the menus change.
Contrary to some reports I read about the Tivo, the Dish PVR record time seems to be quite steady. I get exactly 30 hours of recording, no matter what type of material I'm watching.
One final observation I have is the price of the remote control. You can only use the special remote that comes with the unit. After my two year old tossed this in the toilet, we had to order a replacement at the outrageous price of $60.
Despite a few flaws, the Dish PVR works out quite well. I use it extensively to record shows I would otherwise miss, and I rarely use my VCR any more.
- Necron69
How odd...
WebMaster:
BinFeeds
XXX Thumbnailed Image Newsgroups but
You forgot a few items under MISC:
*Made of pure gold
*Cures cancer
*Makes you more attractive
:)
I opted for DirecTivo, cause you can record 2 channels at once, and since it is Tivo (which is Linux) you can hack the hell outta it (adding a 100 gig HD really kicks the record time though the roof (and it is cheap too).
The TiVo's are VERY easily modified, a factor not easily discounted. For the grand total of $150 (I got a deal on the HD), I got all the parts needed to upgrade my TiVo from a cheap 20hr model to a 105hr model. Say what you will about 'basic' recording quality (and I'd probably agree), but I can't complain about a TiVo that holds 30hr of 'best' quality, for the combined price for about $280.
Oh, and it's moronically easy to upgrade TiVo too... all you need to do is buy an IDE disk, plug it into your computer and boot a bootdisk, run a program, then take it out and pop it in TiVo! there's even an IDE cable ready for it inside.
AFAIK, it's pretty damn hard to upgrade the Replay TV's.
---- I'll take you in a Hunt deathmatch any day.
pvrcompare.com has the most current comparisons I've seen of TiVo, Ultimate TV and the now-defunct ReplayTV 3000/Showstoppers. It doesn't cover Dish equipment or the Replay 4000 though, and doesn't get into much detail on picture quality specifically.
I finished the setup at about 7:10 PM local time, too late to record Futurama, but a friend recorded it on his ReplayTV 4080, so he's going to send it to me over the internet. It was a repeat anyhow, so it's no big deal, but it will be a good test of the show sharing features.
Since the ReplayTV 4000 series can send the show to another unit, and it can play from the disk of another unit, I hope to come up with a way to send my shows to a Linux server with a very high-capacity RAID (a bunch of Maxtor 160G drives) for archiving, then play back from that. Rumor has it that standard protocols are used; if true, it shouldn't be too hard to set it up.
Anyhow, I put a spare PC on a hub with the ReplayTV so that they were on the same port of my Ethernet switch, and have tcpdump logging all the ReplayTV's network traffic to a file for analysis.
I hope ReplayTV will develop a model with integrated satellite decoder. That would improve both the picture quality and the channel change latency. Actually, since they already have an Ethernet port, they could just build a satellite reciever with an Ethernet port, sell it as an accessory, and update the ReplayTV 4000 software to record from that.
I was thinking of that as well, some varibale control just like you get with voice-mail now, that would let you alter the playback speed but pitch-shift the sound so it still sounded normal. Watching most things 10% faster would be fine, and watching news shows at about 150% (or 170%) faster than normal speed might make them bearable. I don't understand why no-one has implemented this feature in media plaers as well (at least none I've ever seen do this).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I find that most shows I watch do just fine on the "medium" Tivo quality setting. However, there are some shows that just beg for more. For example, "The Simpsons" looks like complete crap at "medium" with all sorts of JPEG artifacts when things move too quickly. The nice thing is that you can select different quality modes for different shows when you set up a "season pass." Thus I can set up Simpsons on a higher quality mode, but leave my wife's "Trading Spaces" show (which she records about three episodes a day!!!) on a lower quality mode so it takes up less space.
-Steve
What are any of these company's plans for HDTV? Can any record HDTV, is it not feasible because of size? Will they support HDTV in the future?
I'd like my DVR to last past the HDTV rollover...
OOT: There's no such thing as a Comcast General Instrument cable box, Comcast doesn't make hardware. Secondly, the serial connector works fine with GI cable boxes, thus rendering the infrared blaster completely unneccessary.
A lot of people are confused by this. The Tivo cannot control any cable boxes via serial. Really. No, really!
Okay, still don't believe me, try this: Disconnect the serial connector, try not to move the setup or stand in front of it or anything. Now change the channel using the Tivo. MAGIC!
What's really going on is that on the front panel of the Tivo, there's a built in, forward-facing, IR blaster. It shoots IR out the front, which rebounds off your furniture or what have you, and hits the cable box. Cover the front of your cable box and try it again with the serial connected. Didn't work did it? See?
The reason for the front facing IR blaster is to make it simple enough for granny to setup. Seriously, it doesn't work very well in that config, so hook those L shaped IR blasters up for a better signal. You may also want to build a fort around the cable box IR input (with the blaster inside) and/or disable the front facing IR blaster on the Tivo (pop the front cover off by pushing down on it really hard and cover the IR blaster with electrical tape). Sometimes, that front facing blaster blasting at the same time can confuse the cable box because it's getting two signals at once.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
OK, I should clarify my quesiton. In addition to wanting NO monthly fees, I do not want any of my viewing habits tracked. I do not want the DVR dialing out or connecting back to any company. I want it to be a fully self-contained unit that functions as a basic digital VCR. Does ReplyTV allow this?
But by far the best feature of the Replay 4000 is it's network functions. Although I have not used the feature yet. The ability to share movies with other Replay 4000 users over the Internet makes it the clear cut winner of the bunch.
Anyone interested in trying this feature out shoot me an email address and we can exchange Replay IDs.
drvpn@t3link.com
T3Link Hosting
Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
Does any plan to come out with a dual tuner non dss system? I'd love to be able to be able to have digital cable and record two things at once like the directivo.
Back to the question at hand, one Dr. Strange has compiled very detailed reviews and comparions of TiVo and Replay, as DirecTiVo and UltimateTV:
http://tivonews.com/features/comparison/
DirecTiVo is the way to go.
In any case, I think the numbers are less important than the nature of the complaints. You're right, all devices are subject to random hardware glitches. But the problems that keep getting reported (and which I've experienced myself) indicate that the system is unable to respond to forseeable problems.
One example is the way the Tivo responds to minor hard disk problems. You would certainly expect a lot of Tivo hard disks to develop bad spots. It's a common occurance with any kind of hard disk. When this happens on a PC, somebody (usually somebody skilled) recognizes the symptoms and runs a utility to find the bad spots and exclude them from use. But in a consumer device this process has to be fully automatic and reasonably reliable. I don't think Tivo has succeeded in doing this.
A much nastier example is the recent upgrade snafu. Once again, we don't know how many people got bitten. But it's clearly a significant number. Which means that every Tivo owner is playing a kind of Russian Roulette every few months! Not acceptable in a consumer product.
What's really discouraging is that the Tivo tech support people now include "It's a computer. Computers crash" in their standard explanation set. Yeah, the computers most people use crash. But well designed systems do not.
I certainly agree that DVRs of some kind will soon be as common as VCRs are now. The question is, are the ones that are being sold now really ready for the mass market? For the Tivo at least, the answer is clearly no.
I personally have opted for a DVR computer instead of one of the pre-built boxes. Just a 400 or 500Mhz machine with IDE Raid striping on two 60G HDs, two capture cards, and any one of a handful of free or cheap to register software programs.
Sure it costs around $600, the hard drives are the only thing over $100 each, but I also throw on a few games and use that computer for friends at LAN parties.
I can set the quality as high as I like for the initial recording, then re-encode it if I want to keep it long term.
The nice part is that it works with any system. The tuner cards tune normal cable or broadcast, and every satelite system I've seen so far has an analog out for VCRs that ties with a scheduled recording routine on the tuner. That schedule and the software's own schedule are easy to sync up and make recording happen automatically daily. Even though the signal is analog from the satelite tuner, I rarely see even a hint of static. Most of the static from traditional systems comes from the source transmission anyway, not whether it is analog or digital.
If you are all woried about an 'analog' system, then just remember that most of todays big screen movies are recorded and played back in 'analog' form. Only the special effects shots are digital. Except of course, for the movie god himsself, George Lucas...but that's an exception to the rule up there with fully animated films.
[ http://www.dvigroup.net/self ]
I have both. The tivo picture quality is not as nice on my Sony Wega XBR, but the DISH PVR menu system sucks big time. The tivo menu is much better. And it extends much further out than the 44 hours that the dish pvr currently can hold. I have also had negative experiences with the DISH PVR freezing and losing data on reboot. My Tivo had freezing issues as well after the upgrade last spring, but a later upgrade fixed that problem. I intend to purchase a second (read cheap $84 at Sams Club) dish receiver and put the tivo on it. On top of that the DISH PVR only can setup recording schedules based on time slots, which for a previous Tivo user is quite infuriating. I hear they are going to advance these features in the future. If they can get to the state of the Tivo usability I think they will have a winning product.
Ok, there are two basic classes of PVR's out now...
Ones for Digital Satellite Systems (They record the bit stream directly from the satellite without an analog to digital encoding process), and those for other systems (They convert analog TV into a digital MPEG stream and store it on disk).
To understand satellite systems. Incoming signals are buffered off the hard drive. (Long discussion about MPEG multicasting not gone into here, but the hard drive allows a longer error buffer to catch out of sequence key frames). You can then watch that stream or another stream off the hard drive. This allows you to watch a recorded show and record at the same time. But you cannot watch live and record something else.
DISH SYSTEM
Two Basic Systems
Dishplayer/WebTV (7100 and 7200)
The software for these were created by a division of microsoft. (Based on a unix core!).
They basically record the bitstream to disk. They have a very nice UI compared to other dish recievers. They have a 7 day guide, and support searching. (The searching is not as deep or complete as TIVO's searching).
They also have games (DOOM, You don't know jack, and solitare).
They also can be used as webtv terminals (though the software for webtv is a generation behind standalone webtv boxes).
The devices are somewhat hackable. You can put much larger drives in than came stock.
The software is buggy. Much more buggy than UltimateTV which uses alot of the same code as Dishplayer.
Dish Network and Microsoft have never been able to get the software update process smooth between them.
DISH PVR 501.
This is a Dish Product that is based on OpenTV and the software is written in house.
It has no search function, and has been recently upgraded to support a 9 day guide.
There are NO additional monthly subscription fees with the box.
DISH PVR 721 Next generation box due out early next year. Number one feature is to record more than one channel at a time. And to watch something live, and record at the same time.
NO monthly subscription fees.
DIRECT TV
Two basic choices.
Ultimate TV By Microsoft. Similar to Dishplayer, but able to record two streams simultaneously. A LOT less buggy than Dishplayer.
10 a month fee to use PVR.
DirectTivo
Same UI as regular Tivo, but records bitstream directly, and recently upgraded to record two streams simultaneously.
10 a month fee to use PVR
NON Satellite
TIVO
Replay
very easy in fact. we upgraded ours with two 100 gb hard drives, so now it holds something like 70 hours of high quality data. crazy! seriously though, I never thought a device would change the way I watch tv but it does (think no commercials ever again). you actually start preferring to watch recordings to live television just because it is so easy to do.
http://www.linuxtv.org
http://www.cadsoft.de/people/kls/vdr/
It works perfectly here in germany. DVB is Digital Video Broadcasting (MPEG2) transmitted by satellite, kabel and terrestrial VDR is a PVR running under Linux usinf a DVB card from Technotrend (Hauppauge, Siemens, ...)
VDR can also play: DVD, SVCD, MP3, MPEG, DIVX
Bye.
(Hihi... my first /. post)
Have you run MultiMedia Center on the 2k/XP line of OSes? I'll admit MMC can be flaky on Win9x, but I've never had an issue with MMC 7 or higher on 2k/XP. Currently I'm running the recently released 7.2 on WinXP and it's rock-solid, no cashes during use no matter what I'm doing to it. The card I'm using at the moment is the All-in-Wonder 128, though I plan to buy one of the newer cards for the DV project and continue using my PCI A-i-W 128 on my regular PC for my video capture and encoding needs there as a secondary display card.
Also, I've heard that their add-on boards and external TV Wonder products can be flaky, which makes sense since they're not integrated with the display and in some cases use the USB bus to transfer video data which is obviously not optimal. But running on 2k/XP with MultiMedia Center 7.2 and a real, full All-in-Wonder, I foresee no stability problems at all, since I'm doing just that right now on my regular PC with no issues.
As an aside--go to ati.com and look at their new All-in-Wonder Radeon 8500 DV, and at the preview on Tom's Hardware. My god, that card's a monster, the remote looks perfect, and if it runs under XP as stably as my All-in-Wonder 128 does then it's perfect for a DVR project.
Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws"-Tacitus
Try something like: ShowShifter or SnapStream which can make a TV-card enabled Windows PC into a PVR.
I can see artifacts in my standard digital cable signal anyway. For me, TiVo doesn't seem to make things any worse than they already are.
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
The hardware setup of a PVR is pretty easy to figure out - many posts here show the gubbins you'll need to put a nicely specced box together.
The software is a different matter.
For me, OS wise, I'd stick onWin98Lite Win2k version or the XP version when it comes out.
But channel wise, it's not as straightforward. To UK users I'd suggest using the amazingly excellent Digiguide which is an online TV Guide with a staggering amount of personal tweaks and doohickeys and has plug ins that allow it to connect directly to the also excellent Snapstream.
Digiguide is £4.99 a year - worth it even if you don't build a PVR and Snapstream is $49.99 (about £34) from their website.
Now wash your hands.
Buy a DirecTV Tivo and you'll be happy. Buy this DISH POS and you will regret it. DirecTivos are available for $99 at various online outlets.
Of course, one hopes you have enough common sense to not buy DishPlayer V2.0, otherwise known as Ultimate TV. It shares some bugs with Dish.
I selected Dish Network because with their equipment I could access the Sky Angel channels. I selected the DishPVR 501 because it was cheap and there are no monthly fees. I have encountered only one bug: infrequently the box does not display any video. I just remove AC for 15 seconds and the box resets and runs fine. I strongly suggest reading DBS Forums for user comments about the various PVRs.
It seems like they have a product just as sharp as Tivo if not sharper...
Until TiVo reevaluates their policy on transferring lifetime subscription, I am not going to buy into that option. If TiVo wants to have a customer for life, I think they know what is best for them. When something better comes along, with either transferrable lifetime subscription or free subscription, they'll see their current base of customers flocking. In this day of fast growing technology and services, I don't doubt that their competitors will rise to this demand and offer it in the near future.
Linux at home
Any of these PVR things handle HDTV yet?
One of the Reasons the DishPVR's picture quality
is so clear is due to the fact that the sats transmit MPEG2, the receiver just drops it to the disk in that format without having to convert it to MPEG2.
Replay 4000 still has the gaping holes in it's recording functionality that the earlier models had. No to-do list, feeble or no conflict checking, unreliable keyword recording. Being able to skip commercials doesn't do you much good if it won't record the shows you want it to, and I predict the primary use for show sharing will be pleading with other 4000 owners to send you shows your Replay was supposed to record but didn't for some unknown reason. And if you've got DirecTV the 4000 won't give you the hours/buck DirecTivo will, nor the dual tuners, nor the 100% faithful recording quality, nor Dolby Digital, although it will do about three to ten times the damage to your checking account depending on which models you compare.
The Replay 3000 is a Yugo of a PVR. The 4000 adds a better stereo, fuzzy dice, and a towing package it doesn't have the horsepower to use because it's still got the same crappy unreliable engine the old model does. Boasting that the 4000 is better than Tivo is like bragging that your piece of shit car is better than your friends fast, fuel-efficient, reliable one because yours has a better soundsystem to listen to when you're waiting for the tow truck during it's once-a-week breakdowns on the highway.
I realize that the real 'convenience' of these devicies is the programming & scheduling. If all we wanted was a digital video recorder.. it would be easy.
My question is..
I'm thinking of this as a gift for someone...
but.. is scheduling provided for Canadian cable networks?
but for joe average consumer, it's not a 'hackable computer in a neat case' where they even want to know how it works. IT's just something that can record 30 hours of video for them.
It's like saying we shouldn't call casette tapes '60 minute' tapes.. because, in truth, we can stick a lot more at lower quality, or a lot less at higher quality on the same tape.
Really ill keep my vcr instead of getting on that bandwagon .. .. none. You have to play it and record it on cassette.
There is no way to keep a recording long term
This technology is cool for the copyrights holders.
It aint for the consumer.
The ony way to keep a program long term is VCR's and do they ever work hard to kill it.
I was messing around with my SECOND TiVo a while back (yes, they're that good), and I think I ran into his problem #6 before it upgraded (thank God) to 2.0.
The problem was that when you were watching something that you were also recording, and you were in the last five minutes of the RECORDING (not the show), and you tried to direction arrow back out of the program, it would ask you if you wanted to delete the recording. IIRCAIMN (And I May Not), it would also stop recording that show at that point.
I suspect this is a problem found only in very early 1.3 TiVos, as this was a box that I'd let sit around for a substantial period of time (like, last Xmas). Anyway, I suspect that's what he's talking about.
ceci n'est pas un sig.
Tivo... doesn't it? Why is it evil when MS does it but not when Tivo does it? Is this open source situational ethics at work?
I've noticed that even SP speed S-VHS looks worse than TiVo High Quality, and sometimes even TiVo Medium quality. I'm pleasantly surprised how well the TiVo handles most content, and Best Quality is just that, it's really clear, and the difference from source transmission and the TiVo is very small.
Of course, I watch the TV from about 6' back, which is normal for 27" TVs, but it looks great. For 30-minute shows, I usually use medium quality, for shows I like, high quality, and shows I want to archive, Best quality.
TiVo's a very neat toy. No doubt about it. I'm starting to think of it not as a toy, however. It's starting to become of TV life in my house.
Anyone used these systems for bidirectional internet connections?
If so, how did you integrate the system using Linux?
DishNetwork and DIRECTV
With ReplayTV and Tivo the quality varies by what you set it at, but on the Dishplayer and DishPVR for Dishnetwork they just save the video stream from the satellite directly to the harddrive so no audio or video quality is lost from the original signal.
We (the wife and I) bought a TiVo last year when we were trapped in an apartment with AT&T Broadband's digital cable (ick). We both fell in love with the thing, even more so after we received the software update last spring.
When we moved out of the apartment and into a house, we had a DishNetwork dish installed (I'd been a satisfied customer of theirs in the past, which is why I went with them over DirecTV), and went for the deal with one of their PVR boxes. So, we have one of each now, and I think I can provide an objective analysis from the perspective of an existing TiVo owner.
On the whole, we're disappointed with DishNetwork PVR. Yes, it records at full quality, and the PVR unit (unlike the cheaper decoder we hooked the TiVo up to) has an optical digital audio output (note, though, that DishNetwork currently only sends AC3 on pay-per-view programs, AFAIK). So, those are some obvious perks to the cheap box/TiVo combination. However, that's pretty much where the line is drawn.
My biggest gripe about the PVR is that mine is unstable (DishNetwork offered to swap it for another, but I've been waiting until after the holidays to ship it back). The software is also amateurish compared to TiVo. It has no concept of anything like TiVo's "season pass" or "suggestions," no program data beyond roughly two days, the playing interface is horrid (it's impossible to tell where you are in a recorded program). The unit is also considerably noisier, though it does spin the hard drive down when inactive (which my TiVo doesn't do, since it's *never* inactive).
Just so I can say that I haven't knocked the PVR completely, it does have a couple of goodies over TiVo. Namely, it has a 30-second skip button, and it has slightly more storage than my 30-hour Sony-branded TiVo (about 35 hours, to be exact). Also, the PVR is cheaper, overall. I pay $10/month for it, and I didn't have to buy the box. After I got finished paying for my TiVo and the lifetime programming subscription, I'd forked over $400 (it's more now).
In other words, the PVR is really just a glorified digital VCR, and probably should be considered a first generation unit (which I guess promotes TiVo to second generation?!?).
On a somewhat-related note, the new DishNetwork boxes have no serial remote control port. I was rather disappointed when I discovered I'd still have to use the IR blaster on my TiVo. However, with my custom-made "fort," I rarely encounter problems with TiVo changing the channel properly.
-Scott
-Scott Hutton
No, you can't transfer the lifetime subscription to another unit, but you can transfer it to a new owner. It will be worth just as much to the next owner of the unit as buying it himself would be worth, which might even be more than it is now, if the price goes up again. So, even if you expect to sell the box within 2 years, it's still a no-brainer to get the lifetime service...
The only real danger is if the box breaks before the 2 years are up, and you don't have warranty coverage. If you insist on voiding your warranty, you might want to pay monthly until you've done the upgrade and give it a month or three to run, then buy the lifetime service when you're pretty sure it will last a couple more years.
If you're going to void the warranty, be prepared for the risk that entails. (Some have claimed that upgrading the TiVo unit doesn't void Circuit City's extended warranty, but I'm not sure I believe that...)
Deven
"Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay
in microserfs they cottoned on to playing subtitled movies at 2x which was still comfortable enough to read (no chipmunking of voices). can't do this with a tivo though as the status bar comes exactly where the subtitles usually are.
Of course you can do this with a TiVo. No, not at 2x, but you could do it at 3x, the slowest fast-forward speed. The status bar clears after a second or two at this speed, which would allow you to see subtitles. You can also clear it manually (in any fast-forward/rewind/pause mode) by pressing the Clear button.
The best trick? Turn on Closed Captioning in your TV, and watch it at 3x. The TiVo is clever enough to play back CC data even at 3x, which really lets you catch up fast. (If you skip commercials, you could probably watch a 1-hour program in 14-17 minutes.) If there's a lot of talking, it might not be able to keep up with the CC data, but usually it works pretty well.
Can UltimateTV display CC data at an accelerated rate like this?
Deven
"Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay
Is this the kind of "catching up" to Replay you think Tivo and UltimateTV need to do?
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s
Posts like these seem to be common in that forum. There are also a lot of complaints about the phone based replays not being able to connect for days at a time and Replays only advice is to buy a 4000 and install a home network for it. One has to wonder if they'll have the same attitude when the 4000s have problems in a year and Replay is more interested in selling their next hardware platform then supporting the ones replay 4000 users paid $700-$2000 for.
If you're going to start comparing picture quality, you should start by tuning your TV's contrast, brightness, and color settings with either Video Essentials or Avia's Guide to Home Theater (both DVDs available at various places, including some Blockbusters).
After tuning my television (a 27" Toshiba Cinema Series from 1999), I noticed that my picture quality (pixelation, MPEG artifacts, etc.) under a program recorded at TiVo's Medium Quality is only slightly worse than when I watched it on the untuned TV at Best Quality.
"My God...It's full of ads!" -Fry, about the Internet, Futurama
My Tivo captures at 544x480, in best quality. Either you are wrong, or they increased the resolution in later software revisions. Mine has the latest, 2.5.1.
Here's what mplayer has to say about it:
VIDEO: MPEG2 544x480 (aspect 2) 29.97 fps 7250.0 kbps (906.2 kbyte/s)
I've never tried extracting less than best quality, so I don't know if they use a lower resolution or not for those.
-- OpenVerse Visual Chat: http://openverse.com
What I want is a TiVo-like device that will allow me to save programs to VCD (or even DVD-R) so that I can view them at a later date.
I mean, I'd love to record all of Reboot to VCD.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
If it's only in your digital, count your blessings. My digital is bad, but it bleeds into the analog, particularly if it's abc (both stations). Extra red to the right of some objects (heads in particular, and worse for animation) is the most common. Yes, even when using the analog television tuner, or the vcr. I won't even bring up the traces caused by a moving arm on a still background when using digital . .
just as soon as I can have WB and UPN primetime (ok, just Enterprise), I'll go to a directtivo . . .
hawk
It looks like you can now get a $30 installation of reguar directtv from blockbuster, including a 4x4 switch and the oval dish (where needed). My thinking is to get that, then $79 each for two tivos. The blockbuster unit would go in my office for the kids, a tivo with only one satellite line in my bedroom, and two lines (for dual recording) to the living room.
oh, wait a minute. I only have two televisions, and the one in the office is dying
hawk
Unless you have a Via chipset which makes MMC incompatable with XP. You must be used the AMD chipsets which don't have any issues with ATI's software/hardware. From my own experience ATI doesn't seem to like via chipsets.
hawk
hawk
Tell Replay to record two overlapping shows, one of which is non-guaranteed (a conflict, which will prevent one of the shows from being recorded). Will Replay warn you? No. Not even the 4000 will do this. Tivo warns you of every conflict and asks you what you want to do about it, and has for quite some time.
Tell Replay to record two overlapping shows, one of which is a theme (guaranteed or not, doesn't matter). Will Replay warn you? No, not even the 4000. Tivo will though.
The usual Replay owner response to this is "use guaranteed recordings", except that guaranteed schedulings reserve set blocks of disk space that no other guaranteed shedulings can use, and that won't dynamically adjust to TV schedule fluctuations. That means you can only have a limited number of guaranteed recordings, and usually wind up being told you have no more disk space or discover shows have been deleted because a channel was "full" when large chunks of your disk were empty and idle.
Tell Replay to record two guaranteed shows that don't conflict. Wait until a schedule change moves them into conflict with each other, forcing one to be cancelled. Does Replay have anywhere you can look to see which one will be cancelled, or even be warned that there's a conflict at all? No. Not even the 4000. Unless you consider scrutinizing Replays channel guide every day looking for overlapping requested shows a reasonable solution which I don't, and which wouldn't work anyway because Replay doesn't mark theme shows on the channel guide. Tivo to-do list lists what will record and a second list lists things you asked for that won't be recorded, why it won't be recorded, and from which you can force it to be recorded if you want.
This doesn't even cover Tivos multiple priority system, first-run only recording if you don't want reruns, no-repeat recording to prevent repeated recordings of the same Sopranos episode several times a week, smarter search features and other things Replay doesn't have. Tivos goal is to give you tools to find and record the shows you want, ignore the ones you don't, specify which ones are more important than others, and fit as many of them on the disk as possible. Replays goal seems to be to throw together something with as little recording smarts as they can get away with so they can spend their time adding a bunch of tangential nonsense (viewing photos on the TV? That's what they think the public has been waiting for PVRs to do?) so they can claim as many "firsts" as possible, no matter how useless or poorly implemented they are.
There are several comparisons at avsforum.com and a few mentioned in this thread. Check a few of them out and learn a little bit about the competition before you start arguing that Replay has the same level of conflict checking and "reliable" keyword recording that they do.
I just got my two Replay 4040's yesterday as well having opted for two 40 hour units as opposed to one 80 hour unit since I could have one in my bedroom and one in the living room.
;-)
As a Linux zealot, and also a UNIX SysAdmin, I am also a realist. TiVo running Linux is not as stable as ReplayTV running QNX.
(I should also say that I also own two Replay 2020's which are now going to my relatives for their enjoyment now that I have the 4000 series.)
First Impressions:
The box is sleek. It looks high-end. The fact that it has controls on the face so that you don't have to use the remote (if you don't want to) is a BIG plus.
It has a built-in fan. The Replay 2000 series had a nasty habit of getting too hot. Modems would flake out after several weeks of being on all the time. This fan is a NICE touch and is INAUDIBLE.
The Remote: SUCKS. Sorry, but I hate the new remote. It's bulky, and is made of CHEAP plastic. I miss the original remote that came with the 2020.
Commercial Auto-Skip: Works like a charm, provided the show's already delayed (after all it can't skip something when there's nothing to skip to (ie the rest of the show)) but on playback works awesome.
Time Sync: Uses standard NTP on UDP port 123. Took me 30 minutes to figure this out when I first hooked everything up since it would download everything but the clock wouldn't set. Needless to say, NTP is now open through my firewall.
Photo Viewer: Pretty freakin' cool. Although the software only runs on Windoze. Transferring images was god awful slow. Took several minutes to transfer 50 pr0n images but once it was transferred the slide show was quick. No zooming, but all images are maxpected on the screen.
Beaming Shows: Worked like a charm to beam one show from my living room to my bed room. You can also watch a show in the living room from a show that was recorded in the bedroom.
Bottom line: TiVo has always seemed amateurish to me. What's with the thumbs up and thumbs down? ReplayTV has always seem a much more professional grade unit - even since it first came out.
ReplayTV doesn't make assumptions, it just works. (And, they're hackable, too.)
---
CyberCzar@HushMail.com