Slashdot Mirror
Quake 2 Source Code Released Under The GPL
Masem (and many others) writes: "The source code for Quake 2 is now available until the GPL license. The .plan file for John Carmack has the details." The Id Software site is of course slammed with demand for the code. Hopefully other mirrors will be available.
You have to hand to Carmack to be a real good guy.
Sure he cant show you everything he's doing right now,
but by releasing, under GPL, the source code,
I think he letting people really learn how a true master
programs.
This is just a Good Thing
Sigs are dangerous coy things
This, among many other reasons, is why I admire John Carmack.
Some may grumble that he only releases old products, no longer commercially valuable, in this fashion. To that I say "shush!". I for one look forward to browsing through the code of such a lovely 3D engine. The learning opportunity alone is grand, to say nothing of what will be done with the code now that it's out there.
Thank you, John.
http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~meyerds/quake2.zip
id Software, as always, is being responsible and generous to its fans. Instead of keeping its source code under wraps until the game is released to the public domain by copyright law some time in the year NEVER, id Software has decided to release the source code for a game that it is no longer using so that the fans may tinker with it and learn from it.
If any of the people from id Software are reading this (which there is a chance of): Thank you. You rock.
I admit, I'm not a good programmer. I am a code monkey who is working to be a good programmer. One of the ways you become one is looking at good code. I have peaked at both Doom and Quake to just see what goes on in the head of one of the best programmers in the world. In doing so I have picked a few pointers without even realizing it until I did it. So thanks Mr. Carmack, you have given me a Christmas present, the gift of better programming.
Go to my box at linuxhost.ccand you can download the quake2.zip file containing the source.
I got it before the slashdot story hit...
You can find the code in the quakeforge cvs:
:pserver:anonymous@cvs.quakeforge.net:/cvsroot/qua ke login (just hit enter)
:pserver:anonymous@cvs.quakeforge.net:/cvsroot/qua ke co quake2
cvs -d
cvs -d
If you don't already have Edonkey its got linux clients as well. :)
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
ID software are totally correct about the cheating aspects of releasing the code.
... try a lan party instead of the internet next time).
There will always be people who try to cheat, and some who succeed. Releasing the source makes it significantly easier to make a cheating client.
However,
i) The benefits of having the source to an extremely successful games outweighs the disadvantages of increased cheating (unless you're a victim of the cheating
ii) By seeing what the cheats come up with, perhaps the next generation of client-server games will have better cheat avoidance in the server and/or the protocol - we can learn from past mistakes or oversights.
Mmmmmmm
heh, actually I think you still do. Doesn't ID just open the source code to the 3D engines but keep the levels only available by buying the game. I thought that was the deal.
FiGZ.COM - A waste of perfectly good web space
Yes you do, you walking talking dick. As Carmack mentions in his plan, only the engine is GPL, the game-specific data (skins, maps, sounds) are still copyrighted.
Do you have any idea how much of a dick you look like? "This is great, I like Quake II so much more than Quake or Quake 3. Now that Carmack is giving it away, I don't have to feel guilty about stealing it from him." Way to support the community, piece of shit.
now I have to learn C, so I can write 3.21, so I can keep my quake2 server from being hacked! :)
Merry Christmas to me!
While everyone's busy downloading the Quake II source code, maybe I can mange to download kernel 2.4.17!
Someone needs a copy of Lint
gamex86.dll - 0 error(s), 332 warning(s)
Flamebait maybe - but if a build of my project generated 332 warnings I'd be fired.
Mmmmmmm
Ever since the Quake1 source release two years ago, a lot of intresting (and a lot of unintresting mind you) ports of the Quake engine have shown up. www.quakesrc.org reports on these new engines, as well as hosting some projects and a large set of tutorials. If anyone is intrested in coding off a quake-based engine, this is a good place to start. No Quake2 content yet, but give it a few days... www.open-quake.com is also a good site reporting on news in the Quake engine scene. End plug :)
Don't get me wrong I appreciate this Christmas gift from ID as much as the next nerd but I doubt this will have much of an effect on Open Source gaming as a whole.... But it's cool nonetheless :)
Thank you IdSoftware.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
Well I know that so far palantine is keeping CS servers cheat free now, and doing a damn good job at it, just hope it can stay that way.
Break my computer
Free Java games for your phone: Tontie, Sokoban
but crappy multiplayer.
Huh? Quake more than any other game defined FPS multiplayer as we know it today. Yeah it only came with strait DM out of the box but that on it's own was a big deal back then. And then came the mods. CTF? Team Fortress? Rocket Arena? all created during the golden age of Quake mods. Quake is still considered by many to be the finest multiplayer FPS ever. The fact that you make such a comment makes me doubt you ever seriously played Quake online.
The game paks cannot be freely redistributed at all. Your solution would be breaking the law.
I think that if he really should deserve reverance, he should release the source *as it happens*.
You haven't had your labotamy re-done lately, right? You imply that someone that is trying to make a $ should release everything they type for free?
When was the last time M$ released the source for M$ Golf? Oh, wait, they never did. OK, well, when was the last time SquareSoft released the souse for the FF seires. Oh wait, they never did. Hmmm...
Seems like Mr. Carmack is onto something...
Wake up, man.
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
You know, he didn't have to release anything at all. I get a little angry when people aren't greatful for what they have and can get.
Thanks bro, you and your cronies rock.
I know you're here, and will read this if it doesn't get modded to hell.
Thanks, John. Thanks for Castle Wolfenstien which I had to sneak onto the computer without my parents noticing. Thanks for the Dooms which wasted too much of my time (but still, not enough). Thanks for Quake II that destroyed some of my University grades. And especially thanks for the cool Quake 3 tin that the Linux version came in.
I can't spell or type, but that doesn't mean I'm unusually stupid.
First off, Carmack seems to release the source code after two other complete games come out. Q1 Source came out after Q3A hit the shelves, now Q2 after Return to Castle Wolfenstein.
.plan update, that when you release the full code, people *will* find the ways they can use to cheat. They can modify the source for themselves, recompile the engine, and have it work for them. Therefore, the rampant cheats would cause multiplayer to go to pot upon release.
But don't forget, that if they released the source code when the game was being created, not only couldn't they make money on the license, but also other companies would be able to compete on the same level without paying a price for it.
Carmack gets paid for his programming skills, but you're arguing that he should get paid to program *everyone's* game, including his competitor, from one company. All the other companies could release their own Quake 3 Arena clones and make money, without even bothering to do anything with the programming.
And don't forget, that when Q3A sold for $40+, id didn't get all $40. It goes from id, to Activision, to the distributor, sometimes to the wholesaler or direct to the big name store, and then possibly to a smaller store. By then, after the expenses of doing the packaging and the duplication, you're talking only a couple dollars profit per game direct to id... Split that among their, what, twelve workers now in the proper ratios, and that's not that much. Less than a dollar each, probably.
Even multiplied by a few million, that's not that much money to pay those huge salaries. How do they make it up? Licensing.
With licensing, there is *no* middleman. It's a contract between id and the company licensing the engine. In the end, it's probably a larger chunk of change than a first month's release returns.
And secondly, you have to remember, as with Carmack's
No, what Carmack does is *more* than enough, and these are the factors not only he, but id and other people who can understand the business, realize, and have to protect not only themselves, but their consumers, from these problems.
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
Actually, Quake did have pretty crappy net play. QuakeWorld fixed it (and I would agree was a complete and total gem). So in this case you could both be correct.
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
Dude, if you lived next door to me and were playing Quake with the sound up, blasting through a subwoofer at 3AM, it wouldn't just be the game scaring the hell out of you...
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
I don't think the GPL would require you to share media that are associated with the engine, since the GPL only talks about source code and linking. So, if you want to create a commercial game that people can't distribute freely based on the Quake2 engine, you can probably even do that.
There are mods that do use their own textures and game media that are freely distributable. Linux distros can use those mods.
But I can't say that because Quake II isn't that old yet.
Instead I'll just say a big, "Thank you," to ID. It's darn, darn cool to open the source on this.
cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.quakeforge.net:/cvsroot/qua ke login (no password)
:pserver:anonymous@cvs.quakeforge.net:/cvsroot/qua ke co quake2
cvs -d
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
http://ftp.fragzone.se/index.php?s=&p=spel/pr/quak e2/source/
This code looks very different from what CS courses teach you or expensive OOP consultants recommend. It's kind of reminiscent of the traditional UNIX code: very concrete and just tries to get the job done.
http://matt.fluxcapacitor.net/quake2.zip
way to take a perfectly good intellectual point, and make it seem like something a 14 year old wrote by cursing every 3 words.
Looking at quake2/changes.txt it looks like the version of Quake2 that was GPL'd was 3.16. But id has released binaries of version 3.20.
Anyone know if there are major differences between these versions?
Any chance somebody will set up a Q2 community for improving/modifying the code? I'd really like to monitor what happens here. I can see some really cool potential here.
My personal interest in this project is that some independent game makers make some free, yet good quality games for Dreamcast. Wouldn't that be cool? The DC is $50, and can play burned CD's, which makes it an ideal candidate for this type of thing.
In any case, if the GPL licensing of Q2 sparks some quality spin-offs, this could be a welcome evolution of cross-platform games.
"Derp de derp."
There are changlogs for 3.1[7,8] I just saw. So there are just a couple of minor version changes -> 3.20 I guess.
You can say "damn" here, we're all mature enough.
"If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
How does something like this get moderated as insightful? It's just another vulgar flame. Take out the insults and swearing, and there wouldn't be much left.
;p j/k), many many people do it. Does that make it right? No. But is it true? Yes.
While it's true that software piracy is damaging to a company, and should not be practiced (do as I say, not as I do
Personally I intend to use my recently downloaded source for ideas, and to recompile the source with the latest glibc etc. so it will work on my latest system, and debug that annoying segfault at sound initialization with newer kernels and libs, etc. I might even make a little toy with it.
Besides, notice the (*cough*) at the end of his comment? I suspect he may have been trying to make a joke.
A solution to the problem with music today
Anyone managed to compile it under linux yet ?
./linux/Makefile.i386 to ./linux/Makefile, changed MOUNT_DIR= and then ran make from that dir, doesnt compile.
I copied
Not including the right header files i think
A master of spelling would be a good start. Seven in six sentences. ( I am mostly just busting your balls, I can't spell misspell correctly)
Carpe Deez
How long till we get a hack where you get to blow away UBL and the Mullah.
(B) + (D) + (B) + (D) = (K) + (&)
Actually, I'm kinda surprised that it took this long. Mr. Carmack had mentioned a while ago (like, 8-12 months) that the only thing holding up the Q2 source release was that they were waiting for the final two Q2-engine-license games to ship, since apparently they were legally embargoed from GPLing the code until that happened. Those two games were, natch, Anachronox and Daikatana (cue inevitable snickering here). Anox shipped several months ago, and, uh, we all know what happened to Daikatana.
Hopefully the fact that it took him so long to get around to packaging up the Q2 source for GPL release means that they've been burning the midnight oil on DOOM 3, and we'll get to see it soon.
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
this should definatly help mods such as Reaction Quake3, which are ports of popular Quake2 mods such as Action Quake2. In order for them to be good ports, they had to recreate q2 physics. This was nearly impossible until now with the source code :).
Of course, there are still games with quake2 and quake1 code (especially halflife, which is a quake1-based game with quake2 features). I wonder how id's licensing plans with companies like Valve (who made halflife/counterstrike), interfere with the opening of source code.
So does this mean they are finally going to take down the Quake 2 stuff from the front page of their website and replace it with something a little more recent?
Free Hans!
THIS is how a company makes money producing Free Software. Don't, at least not at the beginning. I'm sure RMS would have my head for this, but it's the truth.
;-)
Consumer-oriented retail software and GPL code are simply incompatble as a business model. If Id released the source for RtCW today, they wouldn't make a penny on their retail sales. Somone would get the source code, edit one line, stick it on an FTP server, and make it available to the world free (as in beer), and most people would get it from there. There would be no legal reason to stop them, and every financial reason for them to do so. That goes for any consumer-targeted application, game, utility, or whatever. You just can't make money with consumers that way. (Consumers aren't interested in "selling support". If they need you to support it, then it was a bad program to start with in their minds.)
Now here comes Id. They develop excellent code, and sell it and license it commercially like any other company. Then, once they've made their money back with a nice comfortable profit and moved on to bigger and better things, they open source the code. They're not doing anything more with it, so why should they prevent others from enjoying it? It's the original idea behind copyright in the first place! Author(s) get limited monopoly for a limited time so that they can make a living producing content, then it goes to the public domain. (OK, that would be more BSD license than GPL, that's a minor issue.)
For the FSF and its supporters, economics aren't the issue, it's all principle and philosophy and idealism. That's all well and good, I agree with their ideals for the most part. But idealism must be tempered by reality to produce pragmatism sometimes. The Id model is the best way I've seen to make money in the consumer space while still supporting Free Software / Open Source (take your pick).
Unless someone else has a better suggestion on how to make money in the consumer space with FS/OS code (remember, after the cash register the consumer doesn't want to ever have to talk to you), we should all bug companies to follow Id's excellent example. If they balk at the "lost revenue", just show them Carmak's twin Lamborginis.
--GrouchoMarx
Card-carrying member of the EFF, FSF, and ACLU. Are you?
Here's some of the changelog entries from 3.19 and 3.20 that would be kinda important to compatibility and general goodness. Hmmm... and even if Zoid worked on Quake after 3.16, wouldn't that be considered work-for-hire, and thus the ownership of the code revert back to id software?
... flowing transparent textures now works. [in software renderer]
- "Water surfing" that was present in 3.17 has been fixed (holding jump while
on the surface of water let you swim at full speed).
- Environment maps (env) are now autodownloaded (if allow_download_maps is set).
- Spectator support added.
- New server cvar: sv_airaccelerate. This controls the optional air
acceleration facility. [esp. if you want QuakeWorld physics!]
- Fixed the long standing Quake2 bug of where you would occasionally spawn
or teleport and find yourself either looking straight at the ceiling or
down at the floor.
-
- Fixed a case where a person joining a server could be invisible
- Linux: Complete rewrite of the OpenGL library handling. [!!]
- Railgun shots now go through gibs as well as other players.
Most of them should be fixable by various people, but some might take a while (like the OpenGL rewriting). Also, I'm guessing that most of those bugs would be relatively obscure and could be tricky to fix (Carmack obviously didn't get it correct the first time, and he _wrote_ the damn thing!).
Well, there's always the option of releasing the source code, but not the game media. Kind of like how you can always download the doom executable for free, but without the WAD files, no luck playing the whole game. This would work with many companies, but unforunately not id - a huge percentage of their income comes via engine liscensing. Of course, by formulating a decent liscense (I doubt the GPL would work for this), they could release the source code and prevent people from profiting off of it. This could conceivably make id a good deal more money as companies and individuals could experiment with using/modifying the code on their own before deciding to create a full product with it and paying id. A problem still pops up with this model though, as mod authors could instead make standalone games, claim them as non-profit, and id would then lose out on the money they get from mods' requirement of having the original game. It's definitely a tricky issue, but it's not impossible to release up-to-date code and still profit greatly from your efforts.
I wonder if someone will make a Quake 2 "Process Killer." This works by having the monsters in quake or any other FPS represent processes on the active system. By killing a monster you will kill the appropiate process. I remember trying it when someone hacked Doom and Quake 1 to do it. It was only a pain in the ass when the monsters would kill each other, or you mistakenly killed an important process.
The zip includes the platform specific files for irix, linux, solaris, unix, windows, and even rhapsody!@ Yet there's not a glimmer of MacOS code, either for X or classic.
I'm guessing this is because ID software didn't port it to Mac, rather Logicware did the classic port and OmniGroup did the OS X port. However, this doesn't explain why the code for so many other OS' is included... Did ID Software actually port Q2 to rhapsody, for example?
Oh well, it would be really nice if Logicware or (more probably) the OmniGroup could donate their mac specific code. Do either of the above two companies actually own their Mac specific source code? Is this why ID Software is hesitant to include it in this package?
Oh well, I have no idea, I'm just thinking out loud.
Here's a patch to get the source to compile under linux -- Carmack forgot to use cl_newfx.c!
m ak efile.diff
http://members.optushome.com.au/davidsymonds/q2
I wish more game developers would adopt his model.
Sure the hardcore open source fanatics will give a thumbs down to the fact that Carmack wants to make money, but then again, they are fanatics.
I also love how Carmack does it during Christmas... kind of puts a tear in your eye
Well, I have bought every game that Carmack has made since Wolf3D... and I am going to buy the new Doom game too. Its important to support the greats.
are there free data files somewhere?
if so, could someone post a minihowto?
If you need text styles to communicate then you don't have a message.
I agree. Its sick how some people actually want to destroy or harm the good things in this world. Why steal from someone who gives far more than his share?
Carmack deserves praise right now, and the fact that a few trolls need to feel their moment of power by doing something stupid... well, kind of ruins the Christmas spirit that Carmack started by releasing the source code in the first place.
Looking at 3.18_changes..
The Water surfing fix is present in the released code, as is the autodownload of environment maps.
Spectator support is in there, as is air_accelerate.
The railgun fix is trivial to implement. The "angle on spawn" bug sounds fairly easy to fix. The flowing transparent textures might be a pain, the software renderer code is still almost as obscure was it was back in Quake1.
The Linux fix seems to only refer to the way it loads the mesa/opengl library - I'm not exactly sure what changed, but again it sounds like a simple fix.
Without knowing what caused the case for players to become invisible, I can't comment on that one. It might also have been a 3.18 fix, so MAY be in the released source.
This IS 3.19, so we may have some of the unknown fixes above already implemented... Duffy may just have forgotten the changes file.
Nah, I am not surprised. Carmack has always been a bit of a romantic (in a software engineer sort of way). He seems to like releasing his source code during the Christmas season. Not only that, I have heard that Carmack actually physically goes to a toy store and buys lots of toys for poor kids. I am telling you guys, Carmack is a romantic.
Well, I guess if he really wanted to get weird with it, he could release it on Dec 25th... but this way the code can be mirrored so that by the 25th, every boy and girl can have their own copy of the source code.
ah nevermind.
readme.txt:
All of the Q2 data files remain copyrighted and licensed under the original terms, so you cannot redistribute data from the original game, but if
you do a true total conversion, you can create a standalone game based on this code.
If you need text styles to communicate then you don't have a message.
All of those other guys copy Carmack, make clones of his games... so why don't all of those other guys open source their games like Carmack does? Really, it would be a good thing for the game industry... let the next generation learn from the last.
I really am. Why? Look at a lot of older companies like Sierra who have games they'll never make another penny off of. Why not release it into public domain or GPL it? No motive. However, when you look at truly great people like John Carmack who've more than given back to his community, it makes me feel good inside. Like maybe, to him, it's not all about the money.
I wish more companies and programmers had such insight.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
Dude, what are you complaining about?
Looking at a static piece of source code can tell you only so much about a network protocol. You actually have to watch the thing working before you start to see how things interrelate (especially if the commenting was poor). This is why the TCP/IP Illustrated series of books continue to be best-sellers among the networking crowd, even though they've been able to look at the *BSD IP stack source code for years.
Because you've taken the trouble to do dumps and in-depth analysis of a live connection, you are way ahead of the game. The Q2 networking code will be cake for you to take apart and modify.
No quest for knowledge is ever wasted.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
I have been waiting for this for a very, very long time. I purchased Q2 for Windows many moons ago, and it is one of the games I miss under Linux. Guess it is time to compile it now.
BTW - does anybody know whether _everything_ works, like sound, joystick, mouse, etc - or is it just the graphics engine and game code (ie, playable with keyboard and pretty gfx, but no sound or joystick support)? Just curious how well this thing really runs...
Hmm - now I am wondering if I should try basing my future VR system on this code...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
3d realms and epic megagames are weenies
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
To sweepingly state that you are greater than your teacher in any class is nearly always a mistake. However, to state that all things must be learned in school is equally as much a fallacy. I don't write graphics engines, but my coding skills are far improved from when I began. To date, my only CS class has been AP Hypercard(oxymoron?) in highschool.
I've learned to program somewhat proficiently in C/C++/ASP/PHP3&4(a little) and Perl all without taking a single class. It isn't to say that classes don't have their place; only that they aren't required(but helpful).
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
Yes, except in this case, nothing odd is happening, and it's not handling an error, it just skips over a single block of code that could be enclosed in a single "else" block. :-)
/. all day and surpass id... :-)
Not to show any disrespect to John - I'm a game / rendering programmer myself, and I would by lying if I said I wasn't envious of his skill and drive. I just thought it was funny that the first thing I stumbled across was a classic example of "for the love of God, never do this!"
Some day, some day I will stop reading
sig fault
http://www.siliconinc.net/quake2.zip.
Enjoy, and happy fragging.
Insert witty
When I try to start the compiled binary in it's directory, I get the following error:
./quake2
/etc/quake2.conf (required for location of ref libraries)
[root@matta debugi386]#
couldn't exec default.cfg
couldn't exec config.cfg
Console initialized.
- sound initialization -
sound sampling rate: 11025
- Loading ref_softx.so -
LoadLibrary("ref_softx.so") failed: can't open
Refresh failed
recursive shutdown
Error: Couldn't fall back to software refresh!
Any Ideas?
There are a *lot* of things the Q2 engine does extremely well and much that people can learn from it. I'm willing to bet that significant chunks of the Q3 engine aren't that disimilar to Q2 engine. Things like BSP tree and collision algorithms will have been improved a bit, but not that much.
Quake 3 was a big victim of piracy and didn't ship nearly as many copies as you might think. Also, the I believe the licensing fee is something in the region of a million dollars per game. I'm sure they make more money off licensing the engine than on direct sales.
I miss the old quake3 logo. I don't like the console like controler in the new logo because quake was originally a pc game and most people around here use pcs for gaming!
When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
This is great news! Now I can download all those games based on the Quake 2 engine for free! Open Source rules!
Perhaps there used to be some other code there in a previous version that needed to be skipped over.
By the way, the standard POSIX way of handling an interrupted system call is like this:
again:
status = select(....);
if (errno == EINTR)
goto again;
Sometimes you don't want to screw around with a while loop.
Another example is when searching for something:
while (x) {
for (i=0; iA; i++)
for (j=0; jB; j++)
for (k=0; kC; k++)
if (something[i][j][k] == somethingelse)
goto found_one;
found_one:
}
The other way of doing it that I know is making an "int found=0;", then adding "&& (!found)" to each of those for loops and replacing the "goto" with a "found=1". But that's a pain in the ass. It's too much typing.
Cryptnotic
My other first post is car post.
Doh. My stupid less than signs didn't work.
Oh well, you get the idea.
Cryptnotic
My other first post is car post.
when was the last time SquareSoft released the souse for the FF seires.
;P
Actually, I think it would be hellishly cool if Square released the FF6 engine - it's outdated enough to be useless to their competitors, but cool enough to still have a VERY wide fanbase (plus, releasing under the GPL would make sure that anyone making improvements would have to contribute back - a good thing, IMHO at least). I could see fan-based programming for the SNES emulators skyrocket if they did.
Of course, right now they wouldn't do it, as the GBA would most probably run the FF6 engine just fine -- and they probably have plans to make a couple games for it...
...then again, that's a lot of probably's, and I'm only on my first cup of coffee
Quake 3 was a big victim of piracy
I doubt that very much. Quake 3 uses the same online authentication system used by Half-Life; each cd comes with a key and only one copy of that key can play online at any one time. That is a very powerful incentive NOT to "share" the game and your key with others that you just spent $50 on (prolly under $20 now).
Woo-Hoo! Thanks a bunch, Mr Carmack!
Now I can build that 3d computer/internet browser in the style I thought it should have to actually get used!
I wish I could say I'm as savvy as you at coding, but I'm afraid I'm only a fledgling code monkey...but with plenty of enthusiasm! So Thanks for the leg up, and hopefully I learn some useful things along the way...
Sig currently under construction. Mind the gap....
Dear Lord, how will I be able to startup ComanderKeenForge.net without the source code to Comander Keen!?!?!?!?! It's just not fair to leave us hangin' like this!!! :)
I believe the licensing fee is something in the region of a million dollars per game. I'm sure they make more money off licensing the engine than on direct sales.
If that was true why would anyone ever want to get a license from iD? If iD's own game makes less money than the cost of the license fee, then how could another company make money off of licensing it? The chance of them selling more copies of their game than iD's are slim.
Oooh, mod parent up! There's a programmer that has no strange religious distaste for the goto statement, one who realizes that it has its uses!
/* ... */
/* ... */
/* ... */
/* error handler */
I'd like to add one: error processing.
void func(void)
{
if (func1())
goto err;
if (func2())
goto err;
if (func3())
goto err;
return;
err:
}
Washington, DC: It's like Hollywood for ugly people.
.... someone sets it up to add Bin Laden's face on every enemy in the game?
--Dave
I have to admit that, early serious training being in Pascal I'm no fan of GOTOs ;-) but my instinct would go for three nested do whiles, each with two stopping conditions. I'll only use a FOR loop if I'm certain I want it to execute that particular number of times, anything else always feels a little icky too me :-)
.. next to do while out of curiosity. Speed went through the roof.
One thing, though - speed. I remember once getting frustrated with a program's slow performance, so I swapped a critical loop from for
Now, I can't believe that's globally applicable but it was curious and I'd be interested to know if anyone else had seen that sort of test.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
I wonder, though, whether ID find it much easier to pursue this strategy because they're in the game market? Games (and *especially* FPS/Multiplayer games) are a market segment where most buyers want the newest engine, best graphics, etc. Could a company that made Wordprocessors or Spreadsheets pursue this model as easily and still make profit like ID? I'm not saying it would be impossible, but it seems to me that many users would have a much higher tolerance for using a free, three-year-old version of their wordprocessor than using a pricely new version (assuming the company didn't do nasty things like change the .doc format, etc). This isn't true of games. So while I like this "Develop-Sell-Wait-GPL" approach, I'd bet that the "Wait" time of a company like ID is amongst the shortest of any software market segment.
Ever heard of Half-Life? (If not, have you been living in some sort of box?) Well, ISTR it was based on a modded Q2 engine. johnc, if I was a woman, I would want your babies. Well done Id. You just keep us coming back for more.
Life is thus,
Death is thus,
Poem or no poem
What's the fuss?
*shrug* I was able to pirate q3 pretty darn easy. (I'm not a big fan really, prefer UT, I just wanted to see what the fuss was about. So pirating it, playing a few times, and then getting rid of it seems ethical to me)
No you are wrong. Of the people who buy RtCW, how many would be able to compile it? 0.001% probably. And its only the source that is released, none of the graphics,sound, models etc. So even if someone compiled the source, people would only get the game engine legally, if someone game them the graphics files that would be illegal and the cops could kick their butts.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
"Hey, we're not making much off the Quake II engine anymore now that we've shifted everything to Quake III. Should we mothball it, maybe even lose the source so no one could even compile it anymore, just like every other game company does with their code?"
"Hell No! That doesn't match my master plan!"
"Master plan?"
"You must be new here. I want all programmers to either learn from my masterful code, or bow before me acknowledging my skill."
"How you gonna do that?"
"Same way Linus did. GPL it! My code shall never die! I will forever be known as the father of thousands of computer games. My code shall outlive the very civilization in which we live. Through my GPLed code, I shall achieve immortality! Mwhahahahahaha."
"Yeah. OK. I'll put together a tarball and drop it on the FTP server."
To himself: "Besides, if I give my brother and sister coders enough samples of my work, sooner or later they'll design the tools necessary fro me to move off of Windows once and for all, and do all my coding under Linux. They'll have to, just so they can continue to hack and improve my own work. Soon, very soon I'll be able to launch Afterstep and compile to Win32 with the click of a button."
(Dramatic Pause)
"And then I'll never have to use Windows again! Mwhahahahahahahahahaha!"
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
People don't buy game engines. Companies do buy game engines. Derivative games don't sell, you say? Well, think again, guess what for example Valve used for Half-Life? That's right, Quake, and they paid for it, probably quite a bit of money. And it's certainly not the only successfull non-id game using ID's engine, do you think they would've paid for that engine if it was right there under the GPL right after the Quake went out of the press?
So you really think, ID should just give away it's code for their competitors to use for free?
What are you guys smoking these days?
I remember this from way back when I was playing Q2 under Linux. How do you get it to run fullscreen with the nVidia GLX stuff?
I set fullscreen to 1 and all the other junk. I went out searching but can't find anything other than Mesa fullscreen info.
Nothing seems to make it go fullscreen.
Any ideas?
Test here: qbism.telefragge.com/tei
.. not very much because the active q1 scene has added yet very much ;))))
Q1 still is a GOOD piece of software. Q2 will ad "goodies" to Q1 source code
Very Thanx JC!
1 saludo
Tei
-Woof woof woof!
If Id released the source for RtCW today, they wouldn't make a penny on their retail sales. Somone would get the source code, edit one line, stick it on an FTP server, and make it available to the world free (as in beer), and most people would get it from there. There would be no legal reason to stop them...
Of course, RtCW is pretty worthless without levels to play through. The engine without levels is of no value to your average gamer. Just because you open source your engine doesn't mean you need to open source your levels, models, textures, sounds, and other data.
There are risks of making your engine open source (As you point out, Id makes money selling its engine to other developers, open sourcing their current engine would kill this model. Also, competing companies could take the engine, saving software development time and focus on developing levels, effectively allowing your competition to leach your work.). But the threat that no one would buy your game isn't there. I buy a game for well crafted, fun levels. The engine is just the foundation that those levels are built on.
I definately agree I'd love to see out of date source made available. I have a number of games I own that I can't play because they're too old (MS-DOS based). I'm perfectly willing to take a stab at updating them, but it's practically impossible to do without the source. There is a risk that this would hurt sales (as I spent time playing old games instead of new games), but I suspect the drop is sales would be minimal (I like shiny new games too much to just stop buying them).
Search 2010 Gen Con events
hehe just try getting into an updated paladin server, set to auto perm ban anyone detected of having any cheats installed period, if and or buts.
That is assuming that nothing takes places between each call to func1(), func2() and func3(). If you have to execute something between them, then putting it in the boolean test makes things VERY ugly.
Thanks for the kind comments, it helps me brace a bit for some of the really vile hate mail that is already starting to come in from the people worried about cheating.
Bill Heineman is preparing the mac source code for Q2 for a release.
We will see about getting the 3.21 changes we missed into an updated release.
I am also happy to say that another old game's code will be released under the GPL soon. We can always hope that it becomes a trend...
John Carmack
So since it is GPL'd, does that mean that anyone can put it on a cdrom and sell it ala Linux distros? Or is it only to be used if it remains free?
My blog can kick your blog's ass
Let's all remember that Id was one of the first (if not the first) game company to encourage mods and user-designed add-on levels. Id has had its head screwed on straight from the get-go.
Without Id, it might still be in vogue for software companies to sue people who distribute total conversions and other hacks.
That is INFACT how intellectual property was supposed to work in the US. You get a limited monopoly to your work or "secrets" in exchange for your eventual sharing of those "secrets".
While Carmack's actions are a noble gesture, they are no less than what should be expected of all software vendors.
Once the code has aged past it's usefulness, it should be public domain... PERIOD.
BTW, this is a great example of the utility of GPL. Carmack can be nice and noble with little risk of it impacting his business. His competitors can't turn around and use this code against him (like they could if it were straight PD).
Those software authors that don't contribute back into the public domain are simply thieves, no less reprehensible than the pirates that distribute their work while it's valuable.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I've never played FF6, but this idea does sound hellishly cool. Although I wonder how clean the code to the engine is? Anybody have connections at Square?
Then Valve would have had to give away half-life, do you really think that would have happened? No, if someone wants to produce a game, they will license from Id. And most likely they will want to use the latest and greatest (namely Q3A).
This might let some poor game developer design some game and license the code. Or maybe it wil help train the next Carmack. Both are slim but there would be zero chance if it wasn't opened.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
I think the release of the source code has some very strong potential for the game development community. Because it's so hard to learn 3D game programming, especially creating an engine from scratch, even giving the community a 3 year old base to work from is still better than having to hack it yourself
Someone will probably write a script to export from gmax if they haven't yet, giving even more potential to the GPL game development community. Hell, if anything it can't hurt, only make GPL and the basement game hacker community stronger.
:: Epoch of Entropyhttp://wouter.fov120.com/panq2.jpg
;)
Not really. The risk is that some company would rip them off by developing some game that used the engine and failing to GPL it. If they do GPL the game (and they would have to GPL the whole game, go read the GPL if you doubt this), very few people would buy this GPL game. A few Linux pwoplw who want to support OSS would, and a few Windows guys, and the rest would end up downloading the free version. Doubtful someone would want to go that route.
The real problem is if someone ignored the GPL and just produced the game. Id would have to prove that they were using thier engine and successfully litigate them. Not easy.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Those software authors that don't contribute back into the public domain are simply thieves, no less reprehensible than the pirates that distribute their work while it's valuable.
What?
what planet did you grow up on?
Go ahead and mod me up. I dare you!
Then Valve would have had to give away half-life
No. Valve would have had to give away the changes to the Half-Life engine under copyleft, but the GNU General Public License says nothing about the data that the program uses. Data encompasses everything from sounds to textures to models to behaviors, the very things that make Half-Life different from Quake.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Of course, right now [Final Fantasy publisher Squaresoft] wouldn't [release the source code the Super NES FF6 engine]
The engine is written in assembly language, not C, because C doesn't work well on the Super NES. The Super NES has two 6502-family CPUs, 65C816 and SPC700. The 6502, with its three semi-general-purpose registers (heck, the 8086 had seven), gives compilers great difficulty in generating object code that performs the expected operations (i.e. intense graphics) in real-time (i.e. less than 50ms latency).
as the GBA would most probably run the FF6 engine just fine
The GBA uses a single ARM7TDMI processor, not any of that 6502 garbage; it runs Thumb instructions, not 65C816 or SPC700 instructions.
and they probably have plans to make a couple games for it...
How will they get their plans past Nintendo's hard-@$$ of a CEO? Nintendo's CEO refuses to bring Square on as a GBA software publisher because he hates Square for how Square ditched Nintendo in the FF7 days. Square can only hope that Nintendo's shareholders will recognize that the lack of Square software creates a missed opportunity for building shareholder value and oust the CEO.
Will I retire or break 10K?
http://therabbithole.redback.inficad.com/tricks/So urceCode/quake2-src.zip
/ So urceCode/quake2srcb/
For those of who don't want to download the whole thing you can browse the unzipped contents at
http://therabbithole.redback.inficad.com/tricks
Ben
Work Safe Porn
How about this?
/* ... */
/* ... */
/* ... */
/* error handler */
/* error handler */
void func(void)
{
if (func1())
err();
if (func2())
err();
if (func3())
err();
return;
}
void err(void)
}
void err(int errorNumber)
}
etc...
Ooops, the braces:
...
/* error handler | err(0);*/
/* error handler */
void err(void)
{
}
void err(int errorNumber)
{
}
etc...
Yeah, that will work.
Washington, DC: It's like Hollywood for ugly people.
In C, the following for statement:
for (A; B; C) {
[body];
}
is exactly equivalent to:
A;
while (B) {
[body];
C;
}
I think Pascal does things a little differently, which is why you might have noticed a speed difference.
Cryptnotic
My other first post is car post.
I've tried to re-build all projects, went good until the software renderer.
.asm files can't be build. It says: 'command or filename incorrect'.
All the
I think it has something to do with a special assembly compiler ID used to create this dll.
Any suggestions?
No, Valve would not have had give away whole Half-Life, only the modifications they did to the quake engine (maybe HL was a bad example, because for HL, Valve really did quite a bit of work on the engine too, something that used almost unmodified engine would be better), they could still sell the GAME, data files, just like ID is still not giving away those, even if the source has been opened.
So, in turn, people who did Gunman Chronicles could've taken HL engine for free, and build their game on top of it.
Where is the DOCUMENTATION?
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
"Screw around with a while loop?" What is so screwy about it? What is so hard to understand about this:
...
for(;;) {
status = select(...);
if(state != EINTR)
break;
}
Don't bitch about branch optimization. That select() call is trapping into kernel mode. Who cares about a branch in the face of that?
Your second situation makes more sense. I usually never have loops nested that deep, though. The only time I really use goto is for progressive unrolling after error:
mem1 = malloc(10);
if(!mem1) goto fail_mem1;
mem2 = malloc(10);
if(!mem2) goto fail_mem2;
fail_mem2:
free(mem1);
fail_mem1:
return -1;
Of course these unrolling sequences can be much longer and more complex. It's really the best you can do in a language that has no exceptions. In C++ you would use exceptions and destructors for this.
I haven't seen a process killer using quake. AFAIK, I know only one using DOOM. If you know of one using Quake please post the link here!!! The DOOM version is located at: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/
Eww, ugly :-)
I'd been shown that before but thanks for reminding me. And in the mean time, I again register my disgust at a language which mutilates simple constructs like that. Swiss Army Chainsaw, definitely.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
> The risk is that some company would rip them off by developing some game that used the engine and failing to GPL it.
Ooooo, But that would be illegal. When was the last time you saw someone release linux with out releasing the source code or referencing it from some where else? Rarely and the problem is usually corrected immediately. VirtualDub is the only other case I have heard about someone releasing GPL code with out the source code, but even that was settled easily.
> If they do GPL the game (and they would have to GPL the whole game, go read the GPL if you doubt this), very few people would buy this GPL game.
"GPL the game", or GPL the game engine? When you say "game" you are defining it way to broadly. You dont seem to understand the GPL, or at least you seem to be transfixed on the FUD that GPL is a virus. GPL can link to proprietary modules/media, but propreitary modules/media can not link to it or use pieces of it with out it becoming GPL as well (if you use GPL code, you must GPL, if your GPL code uses other code it doesnt). The game engine is the one that loads and uses the game media. Also, note that YOU ARE THE LICENSER NOT THE LICENSEE, you can add and make exceptions with in license, that is how trolltech resolved several problems. There was some license incompatibilities with the GPL, so trolltech solved the problem by making exceptions. Also note that even john carmack says, that while the Quake2 source is GPL, the content is not. If you think John Carmack is wrong, start web site and distribute the content and lets see if your right.
Another thing to think about, is that even if they GPL the whole game (including the media), that would mean any body can *sell* that game to any one else, rather then just giving it away for free. If they were popular enough, distributors may pay a lot of money to be the first to distribute the game (imagine making millions selling a few copies of a game in which the people who bought those copies can also make millions, eventually the price of the price of the game goes down until normal people are buying it and giving it away for free). Anyone can make money selling a game, there is less reason for people to give it away for free (less legal issues holding them back). This doesnt work for linux currently, because its not on par yet with its competitors like Windows for the mass market, versus the niche markets, not that linux is not doing well.
> The real problem is if someone ignored the GPL and just produced the game. Id would have to prove that they were using thier engine and successfully litigate them. Not easy.
Its easy to prove. Even the VirtualDub author was able to find it, when they were not using the whole thing, only certain parts in its filtering. Also how far would someone want to go is another issue, if someone copies a small 5 line for loop from your code, is that something you really want to persue? But in such a case you would expect those 5 lines would either be coincidental or even if they were not, they would be a little tuffer to detect. Besides you dont want to sue someone for copying code that is commonly available either, only code that is unique to your design, that is the importance of intellectual property after all. You dont want to copyright, patent, or trademark something that is common and in most cases you can not do that (your intellectual property would be forfeited in a court of law).
disclaimer : My views do not represent those of every one else in slashdot.
Since halflife is based off of the Q2 engine, and Counterstrike is a cool free mod for halflife, I wonder how long until we can have a totally free version of counterstrike not requiring the purchase of halflife..
Now someone can finally make a version of the sims that allows you to kill your neighbors easily and quickly and that has netplay
Half-Life is actually based on the Q1 engine, not Q2, which has been open sourced for a long time now, but of course Valve, or anyone else using those, is under no obligations to OS their implementations, that have been purchased before this.
... well, possible, but certainly not very likely, modifications done to the HL from base Quake source tree are huge, implementing those changes is no way going to be any easy task.
HL is still selling quite well, probably mostly because of CS, so no, I don't think we'll have free version for a while - you just don't kill a goose that lays golden eggs.
If you are thinking about Open Source hackers evolving the Q2 source so that it is compatible with HL
then make sequels exclusive to the SonyBoy Advance
There is no mass-produced handheld PlayStation product (this doesn't count), and Sony has not officially released plans to make one. Sony needs to get off its collective @$$ and produce a PSOne Discman. I'm pretty sure that a PSOne Discman would keep the PSOne platform alive, and it may be Sony's ace in the hole to compete with Nintendo's GBA. (I've read that GBA is twice as powerful as Super NES but half as powerful as PSOne.)
[Sony] owes its success to it's hard ass CEO. Do you think Sony's CEO is a creampuff?
"Creampuff" and "hard-ass" are not always mutually exclusive. See also Kirby.
Will I retire or break 10K?
JC:
;) I am newbie engine coding. I like you way to code very much ;)
;) Se lo digo en serio. Gracias de verdad por liberar el codigo.. pufff... es muy bueno y nos va a ayudar a la scene de programacion de mods, y creacion de customs engines. Sobretodo portar abilidades del Q2 al Q1, que es lo mas interesante ahora mismo. No todo el mundo tiene un compilador, pero si podian tener un qccwin32.. asi que la energia minima para modear con q1 es muy baja,.. en cambio no veo tantas ventajas con las dlls... al menos para los "principiantes". De todos modos.. sobre todo gracias!.. Y suerte con sus proximos trabajos. Good Luck!
Thanks for the SRC man!.
I am hacking the q1src with bits of the q2src. I amazing to see how similar q2src is to q1src
The scene love you man!
how client-server balance horsepower will end?
will horsepower move to client?
:)
- - -
Muy interesante su trabajo. De verdad que uno hablando con usted se siente mas cerca de "dios"
- - -
1 saludo
Tei
-Woof woof woof!
I am modding a ALife game for the Quake engine. This educative game will include:
- sex*
- bugs killing other bugs
- bugs eating is childers
- dna, radiactiviy and cancer
- mutants
- a rocket launcher
( 2 )
Suggestions here:
421621@ingta.unizar.es (stop biologist! only coders and gamers!!)
-Woof woof woof!
ARTWORK vs CODE: - artwork can be reused and "old game coded" not. - artwork, like player.mdl file can be used by hollywood.. licensing the "Quake Dude" as a character... for a theorical film "Quake The Film" or "Mr.Quake vs LaraCroft" ;PP ...."pr_exec.c" not.
- artwork dont help map makers.. ITS FINAL ART; NOT SOURCE:
- artist DONT share IS WORK!, coder do!. I am artist and coder and i knom very good the coders and the designers.. Not the same game,...
ARTFINAL / SRC: .fla / .swf .jpg / .ph9 .psd .mdl / .3ds .bsp / .map
etc...
1 saludo
Tei
-Woof woof woof!
www.neverax.org
open source (GPL) and as it happens
I hope someone can help me. If I compile the source under Linux and then try to run a LFire Quake2 server, it crashes immediately, saying: droptofloor: ammo_cells startsolid at (800 136 816) I have done some research and this is what I found out up untill now: - It happens with both LFire 1.20 & LFire 2.0 and both the 3.19 & 3.21 source - It only happens under Linux; in Windows everything goes fine - The original 3.19 version of iDsoftware runs great with both LFire's - When I compile the 3.19 source under Linux and compare the size with iD's 3.19, then it is a little bit bigger (about 20 Kbyte, after I used the "strip" command) - I tried something like 4 different distributions of the 3.21 source and it still crashes If someone knows what is going on or is willing to spend a bit of time on this problem, it would be greatly appreciated. I have compiled a mini version of the server, containing one map, the original Quake2 v3.20 executable and the LFire 1.20 gamei386.so. It is 400KB and can be downloaded here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~vithar/download/q2_lfire_tes tserver.tgz
Again: any help would be greatly appreciated!