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Twin Robots Scope Out Titanic, Europa Next?
jmichaelg writes "Wired is running an article on a pair of submersible robots that work in tandem to film underwater scenes. One robot illuminates a scene by placing the light source as close as possible to the object being filmed while the other bot manuevers for the best camera angle. That, and a host of other innovations, makes the pair significantly different than the equipment used when the Titanic was originally filmed. Significant enough that JPL has expressed an interest in using the technology to swim in Europa's seas. How JPL will overcome the time delay isn't mentioned but it's an interesting read nonetheless."
Considering the fact that NASA has cancelled any and all europa missions in the forseeable future, I doubt these things will see any otherworldly oceans anytime soon. NASA has much more important things to do like putting nukes in space.
-- Adam
How JPL will overcome the time delay isn't mentioned but it's an interesting read nonetheless.
Why with the ansible of course! ;-)
Brandon D. Valentine
First, the assumption. We are assuming that there is a sea under Europa's Ice Sheet, aren't we? Do we have any proof that there is a sea underneith?
The ethical question (with the assumption)... should we crack open the ice sheet to get to the sea? This is a sea that hasn't been exposed to anything above the ice for a looong time. We have no idea what effects this could cause....
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
How JPL will overcome the time delay isn't mentioned but it's an interesting read nonetheless.
Just open a subspace channel, or reroute power to the main deflector dish. Duh.
that we all know who JPL is. I would have hated to have /. waste bandwidth by a short parenthetical aside like this (Jet Propulsion Laboratory, the company who is only mentioned once in the article, but twice in the write up).
It would be real great if they did find some primitive life there. But then the next mission all of it was whiped out by Small Pox, or some other virus that is compleatly forgen to the moon. Learn from the Simpsons, Rember what the Bull Frogs did to Austrailia.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
No offense (or troll) intended, but I think these robots (the size of this -) are much cooler.
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I wish they could come up with an underwater dealy that could help us explore the depths of the ocean so we can maybe check out these giant squids and see where they roam. Maybe this is a step closer to that? If we find enough of them then maybe we can find them in our local Italian restaurants as giant calimary (marinara sauce and lemon wedges included).
In the late '90s, scientists discovered the Titanic was being consumed by a new life form, composed of 20 different species of bacteria, two species of fungus and two species of Archaea that, together, form a symbiotic rust coral or rusticle (they look like icicles) that thrive on iron.
These rusticles have formed a single biological mass that is believed to be the largest life form on earth. It seems like poetic justice that this death site of historic magnitude should make such large contributions to man's discovery of new life, not only on Earth, but perhaps on other planets as well.
Interesting, I have never heard of this before, does it really count as a single lifeform ?, sounds like a micro ecosystem to me.
(heck of a) of a ;)
You could actually see that the gerbil must have stopped running on the wheel...
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Random, useless fact: I type in startx entirely with my left hand.
We found some huge underwater city filled with aliens, or other strange and unusual lifeforms in these seas of Europa.
Whats the plan for this? Do we even have one besides hitting the panic button?
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Unsure what the time delay mentioned above is about.
I assume the robots work in tandem with each other; being close to each other means minimal lag when co-ordinating the lighting. The only delay is transmitting pictures back of course.
Server seems to have tumbled over already so I can't check but it's interesting to consider what sort of lighting metrics they use - a human at home can say, "That's looks nicer lit like that." but what criteria should be used for autonomous work? Highest constrast? Smallest resolvable feature?
hmm, never heard of that one. i do remember the titanic though, saw it in a movie once.
E.
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This Post has been brought to you by the letter "E".
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Thats why they canceled.
The problem isnt, if we will find something its when. And the biggest problem is what do we do when we do find something? Panic? Because NASA and our Government has no clue of what to do, Seti and pro alien people would be wanting to meet the aliens and hug them, and others will want to kill them off, dont forget 90 percent of the USA is religious and could worship them, call them demons, or whatever.
So if we do go to Europa and find something, is NASA prepared for it:?
Europa is the biggest canidate for life, chances are theres life on it, theres the proper climate, and theres water, the life is most likely going to be underwater deep sea type life but theres still the chance for intelligent life.
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Cool. Not to make everyone else too jealous, but I was recently at a presentation by Mike and Jim Cameron about this project. Mike gave about a short presentation about the development of the ROV, and then Jim gave a much longer one about the missions. How cool is it that one of the project paramaters is that the ROV has to be small enough to fit in a "B" deck window? One of the many great quotes of the evening from Jim was "I paid for these guys, so I drove mine on every dive. Mike had to share."
The footage is *AMAZING*. There are stained glass windows completely intact. In one stateroom, there's a water pitcher sitting on a shelf above a water glass still standing upright on a vanity. Still upright!!! After the sinking and the impact! Jim talked about how important it was to have 2 units, so that there could be "characters" in the shots. Oh, and not to ruin anything, but Bill Paxton is in on the project. The quote went something like "I'm making Bill do for real what he pretended to do in the movie"
At one point they had a battery failure on one of the units due to a manufacturer's defect. So they rigged up a harpoon to the other, and went in and rescued it. It was an amazing feat, and they surfaced absolutely elated. But their victory was short lived, for the date of the rescue was 11 September.
At several points during the presentation the audience broke into applause at the sheer grandeur of the footage. I can't wait to see the finished project, especially after they get some of the stuff enhanced and cleaned up. There were 12 dives on Titanic, 9 of them filming missions. And trust me on this one guys, you *must* see this film. Even if you aren't into wrecks, it will blow your mind.
UugaBuuga
I thought it was pretty clear that Europa was off-limits. Oh well.
In 2008, NASA is currently planning to launch a probe to the Jupiter system called the Europa Orbiter. Its objectives are to determine the presence of or the absence of an Europan subsurface ocean, to find out where exactly is this ocean and to understand how the surface features formed. The Europa Orbiter will also find candidate-landing sites for missions to Europa's surface.
--- rapper/producer/bachelorette party stripper
While I applaud JPL for out-of-the-box thinking, I have to wonder what the chances are of finding an iceberg-wrecked cruise ship at the bottom of an ocean on a moon of Jupiter.
The gravitational field probe on Galileo measured Europa to be "mostly rock, with an outer shell of water about 60 miles thick." Other instruments gave readings that supported oceans under Europa's surface. The near-IR spectrometer found evidence of salts and sulfuric acid that came out of cracks on the ice. The magnetometer reported changes in Europa's magnetic field which scientists say to resemble a salty liquid ocean.
--- rapper/producer/bachelorette party stripper
Maybe, maybe not ...but how about Altlantis?
[alk]
I've heard about a Titanic.
It would be interesting to know if this idea would translate well to other mediums, i.e., filming in space, in the atmosphere, in the bloodstream...
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
NASA is already making sure that they do not contaminate Mars/Europa/etc with probes. In fact, they have been thinking about that since 1999. Check out http://centauri.larc.nasa.gov/outerplanets/Europa_ PPR.pdf for a rather laborious read.
--- rapper/producer/bachelorette party stripper
His response: "The technology we've developed due to NASA projects is huge, and mostly unmeasurable. For example, the VCR your parents own would not be possible without technology we developed in our quest to explore outer space."
This is sad. Today the tables have turned.
We wouldn't be able to explore the moons of Jupitor if it wasn't for the technology we developed to make some sappy chick-flick.
Our thirst for entertainment has become paramount, and all else is now secondary!
Free unix account: freeshell.org
Instead of big robots, my idea to search for life would be to use microbots, they'd work like insects and drill under the ice by swarming to a certain spot and in a combined effort drill under the ice.
Thousands or even millions of these bots could be stuffed into a capsule if this drilling method cannot work, and let a big drill robot drill a really small thin tube and let the microbots go in through the tube into the water beneath the ice.
Once beneath the ice, they all spread out, reproduce via an assembly process, if theres materials to do so, each bot has a camera, a small light, they can swarm in areas to light that area up, or spread out if theres a need to.
If theres life on europa under the sea it makes no sense to use expensive big robots which these lifeforms could just break instantly, using small robots which can spread out in an instact, and which act similar to a school of fish would be perfect for exploring the ocean on an alien planet.
Thats my opinion, I dont work for NASA but i know NASA has the technology to do this right now, Its not a technology issue its a cost issue.
With Bush cutting budgets and lowering taxes every chance he gets, theres no way this project could ever happen. We have the technology to do it, we have the technology to send a man to mars, to terraform mars, to explore europa, pluto, etc
The reason we dont, is because these new technologys are expensive.
It would take several billion to explore europe, it would take maybe 100 billion to send a man or men to mars, it would take a few trillion and a couple of decades to terraform mars. I think we should begin to terraform mars now for our childrens sake, because i dont think earth will last another 100 years at this pace.
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The delay they are speaking of is the distance between Europa and Earth. It's probably over an hour delay between Jupiter and Earth. It would be like controlling remote control cars in a race track with a rather bad reaction time.
--- rapper/producer/bachelorette party stripper
Drilling isn't really an option. Melting your way through with a small radiothermal heat source is relatively easy. But what about the datalink? While melting its way in it would need to leave a cable connected to a radio relay left on the surface. Unless the sub is going to be limited by the length of the cable there will need to be another relay at the bottom of the ice layer that translated the signals to either ultrasound or blue-green laser. Add to that another relay in orbit around Europa and just multiply the probabilities that all components in this chain will not fail...
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
Raise the budget for space research and you'll see probes going to europa.
With a 1 trillion dollar tax cut, and budget cuts all around including NASA, do you really believe that a probe will be sent to Europa? And if they are it will be a really cheap probe.
You see, the space budget should be getting billions, but tax cuts means lower budgets, so when you cry about us not exploring space, you can only blame george bush.
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...that we won't like robots not going to space?
2 44 &mode=thread
angeling this story at space exploration was kinda lame. these ROV's sound great, they could be used for exploring the oceans(you know the big ble areas on the map). like this:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/12/07/161
We already know more about our solar system than we do about the oceans. this discussion will soon drift into a 'when these ROV's come to europa' thread.
i think one of the reasons of JPL's interest is the small size and weight
Design a bot that creates it own umbilical from the material it finds in the operating environment.
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
Doh, I totally missed the point, don't worry, I've liberally applied the cluestick about my head and neck. Time delay as the space mission, not the tether issues ROV's have.
Self-LART. Well, there isn't any way short of using some tachyon nonsense to "beat" the time delay, so you just have to end run around it.
I really don't think there'd be any way to get a decent enough AI type system to react properly, so I'd probably say they're going to have to drop back to the old "batch command" standby. Of course, any current at all will really screw you here, but since these little guys can't really deal with appreciable current anyway, I doubt it matters. Another issue will be with bouyancy. In order to pull this off, the rig is going to need to be neutral, but who can tell what the density of the liquid is going to be.
After having seen these units in action, I don't think they're ready for that kind of prime time yet. But, when they head them off to the Bismarck next year, that's going to rock!
UugaBuuga
Please mod me down, that way you won't be able to mod up insightful posts that need it. Thanks in advance.
First - from space.com, an article stating why we think that there's an ocean underneath the ice. Ocean on Europa.
Second - from the article. I'm not sure where they got this, but I didn't dig very deep to find out.
Europa has what appears to be an ice-covered, saline ocean that is 30 miles deep. There are holes in the ice created by undersea volcanic activity.
Better?
We eat the pig and then together we BURN!!!
How JPL will overcome the time delay isn't mentioned but it's an interesting read nonetheless. When there is a time delay involved, one answer is to make the robots so smart that they can function on their own.
The Robot AI Mind in Forth and in JavaScript AI Tutorial Format has escaped into the Web wilds and is racing into the future towards Technological Singularity (q.v.), already having been ported into Visual Basic amd into Java as Mind.JAVA. Robots are about to become independent and join with us humans in the exploration of space.
Solar sail, Microbots stuffed into a small capsule, and you could get to Europa at very fast speeds.
u g99_1.htm
Solar Sails at 150,000 mph, which is far faster than nuclear
Nuclear also has heat problems, and sure it can
Solar Sail
See how it works http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop19a
Also we could use Mini-Magnetospheric Plasma Propulsion
Plasma or ionized gas is trapped on the magnetic field lines generated onboard, and this plasma inflates the magnetic field much like hot air in a balloon.
See prototype
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Ok first off...
;-)
"Sound travels well underwater, but sound is slow and can't handle the data transfer rate required for video."
I understand what they are trying to say, but they say it akwardly. How about, the speed of sound is slowed underwater, therefore isn't a viable option for what they are trying to do.
There, that's better. Next, Jake and Elwood huh? Good to know the Blues Brothers are still on film, especially after the not-very-good Blues Brothers 2000.
My work is done here.
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Well, we'll start by filming the Titanic on the 12th, and then we'll be ORBITING JUPITER BY THE WEEKEND!!
How JPL will overcome the time delay isn't mentioned but it's an interesting read nonetheless
I'm more interested in how they're going to get two submersible robots under a few kilometers of ice first. Not to mention, to communicate, they'd have to be tethered (water isn't real conducive to radio communications). They've got a lot more than just a time delay to worry about.
I don't see how this could be reliably automated. Maybe with some people drilling it could be done, but I have a feeling that if we dropped a robotic drilling system, something would go wrong. It's just a bit too complex for me to have faith in it.
"All these worlds are yours-- except EUROPA. Attempt no landings there."
"instead of dragging the cable into the hull and returning on the exact same path (and perhaps catching the optical fiber on something), the bots continually feed out the cable they need and exit the wreck wherever it is convenient.
When the bots get back to their docks on the submersibles, the umbilical is simply jettisoned. Not having to go back or untangle the cable is a tremendous time-saver. Furthermore, the cable is designed to decompose quickly so it won't leave an unsightly web-like mess for future visitors to encounter."
i wonder if decomposing fiber optic lines are good for preservation of the ship.. or the life around it..
Significant enough that JPL has expressed an interest in using the technology to swim in Europa's seas.
Funny...I remember reading an edict a few years back that went something along the lines of:
"All these worlds are yours, except Europa. ATTEMPT NO LANDING THERE."
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
Can't you read?
"All these worlds are yours, except Europa. Attempt no landings there."
I tell you, we're only asking for trouble. Personally, I think if a gigantic black universal Swiss Army Knife tells you to not land somewhere, you should definitely not land there!
Why bother.
So it behooves (love that word..) us to be careful. Better too caution, than not cautios enough. The same applies for any samples returned. What if it turns out that some Europan life form loves vinyl?
Best Slashdot Co
Ok people, we all know the quote. Can we please try to restrict ourselves to a single 2010 reference per Europa-mentioning-story?
^_^
Maran
not another Titanic movie.
What's all this bollocks about 'All planets are yours except Europa. Attempt no landing there'???
What the hell does NASA think its doing? Didn't it get the message: "All these worlds are yours, except Europa...". I think heeding the warnings of kilometre long black monoliths is a very very good idea.
I have trouble with passwords among other things.
A bunch of projects have been stopped so funding can be directed into the Europa Orbiter. There is no more Pluto-Kuiper Express and other probes. NASA wants Europa yo! Start your own space program if you're just going to keep quacking like a duck.
--- rapper/producer/bachelorette party stripper
The only way to get around the time delay (short of sending a human crew) would be to program the robots to have a great degree of autonomy. So, all you OSS coders out there ... let's make sure this thing doesn't end up running on Windows 2020. Maybe you could call it GNUENE (GNU's Not Unix's Europaprobe's Not a Europaprobe) or something catchy like that.
Gee, we've never been able to communicate underwater, have we? The hydrobots could talk to each other via sound/sonar. Water is actually conductive to radio waves, but it depends on the frequency. Our submarines get messages via ELF and VLF (extra low frequencies and very low frequencies) bands.
It does sound complex, but I have faith the intelligence can be coded. I don't think it can be too hard to program one hydrobot to take pictures while the other calculates how the light should best illuminate the subject matter.
--- rapper/producer/bachelorette party stripper
TOYNBEE IDEAS IN KUbricK'S 2001
RESURRECT DEAD ON PLANET JUPiTER
I think the .com bubble proves that. :}
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The hydrobots could save the video and then transmit any info to the Europa Orbiter for transmission to Earth.
--- rapper/producer/bachelorette party stripper
A: There would be a current flow.
TOYNBEE IDEAS IN KUbricK'S 2001
RESURRECT DEAD ON PLANET JUPiTER
For the Mars rover they used aerial maps and rover surveillance to examine the terrain before exploring. They'd program a detailed path, send it to the revoer, the rover would explore, and then report back. All this was for less than a 30 minute ping time, of course, but the principle still holds IMHO. Of course, on Europa we don't have underwater maps, but I think we could take sonar readings, relay those back, and apply the same exploratory cycle as used on Mars.
The big question I have is how you land the large assembly needed to land on the surface, bore through the ice, release the subs, and still have room for control gear for subs, and lander, not to mention on-planet reception gear for the lander as well as storage and off-planet transmitting and reception gear. This is particularly true with NASA's "faster, cheaper, better" program.
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I'd rather it preferred polyester :)
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from a recent article on CNN:
g et/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/02/04/nasa.bud
"So-called Outer Planet programs were given failing marks as well. Citing swelling budgets and launch delays, the Bush budget would scrap all future funds for proposed Outer Planet missions to Europa, a large Jupiter moon that some speculate harbors life, and to Pluto, the only planet that remains unvisited by a probe. "
-- Adam
I was about to say, "No, the moon of Saturn is Titan, not Titanic." Then I saw that you did indeed mean the ship. You're off the hook--this time. :-)
Until the space program started requesting ever smaller computers, there was virtually zero drive to downsize them. Although the thought and even practice of placing computer memory on chips existed before the Mercury program, nobody would have invested the money that allows VLSI (and hence the 'modern' computer industry.) Thus my job, your job and probably nearly everyone on Slashdot can thank space exploration.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
anybody remember when all the Titannic hub-bub was going about over the titannic movie, someone was making a replica.
i dont remember where i read it but it was supposed to be full size (or nearly so) ocean-going, and everything, (diesel powered instead of coal tho)
if i recall it was supposed to be ready in 2002
so, where is it?
Actually, JPL was founded by a notorious satanist who was murdered in an explosion. And the initials "JPL" are jokingly referred to mean "Jack Parson's Lab".
Part of this post is true, part is false, and part is opinion. Can you tell which is which?
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
"All these worlds are yours except Europa. Attempt no landings there."
"Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
Shut up with the damn 2010 references already...it's been said about 30 times! ENOUGH!
-AC
It might interest my fellow slashdotters to know that the originator of what is now called "The Europa Theory" and the co-discoverer of the communal lifeform "Rusticalus Titanicus," scientific polymath Dr. Charles Pellegrino, was on Cameron's expedition to the Titanic last summer (you can find out more about that at http://earthship.tv/ .
In addition to a dozen science and science fiction books on fields like Paleobiology, Archaeology and advanced rocket design, Dr. Pellegrino has written two books about the Titanic that talk about Europa and Rusticles, "Her Name, Titanic" in 1987 (which was also cited by Cameron as one of the inspirations for his movie, since it tells the survivors' stories in paralell with the story of Titanic's discovery) and "Ghosts of The Titanic" in 2001 (which Cameron wrote the introduction to). Pellegrino originally got involved with the Titanic as part of his study of underwater robot technology, and in addition to relaying survivor accounts, he has long discussions in the book about life on Europa and the robots that may one day discover them. Its amazing how it all connects, exploration of outer and inner space. When Pellegrino's colleage and Rusticle co-discoverer microbiologist Dr. Roy Cullimore first saw the Rusticle samples in his microscope, he is reported to have said "Welcome to Mars!" Its a shame reporters these days just vaguely refer to "scientists" and their "theories" without knowing the personalities and stories involved in *real* scientific exploration!
You can find out more about my friend and former teacher Dr. Pellegrino, his writings and his inventions at http://www.charlespellegrino.com/
I should mention I'm also the webmaster for the site (which is viewable but under construction)!
Decomposing fiber? I guess that explains my network problems. AAARGGHH!!! I was tracking connection problems for days. And now you tell me there is decomposing fiber.
I'm all for cool robotic NASA expeditions, but what about also using these things on earth - there's plenty to discover here.
We KNOW the oceans here are teraming with giant squid and giant red octopii (octocpussies?) yet can't find the damm things!
How can we be sure we don't roam around Europa's oceans, find nada, yet maybe there's a giant red octopii there too!
Form of... an ice dildo!
Form of... Goatse Man!
im not sure, a man of war might lay egg masses, but i know the adults are very similar to singular jellyfish.
Hahaha, that's great! LOL!
Oh wait, no, it's STUPID!
Plus you didn't even get the quote right. I guess that actually IS funny.
If they're bringing two units down, why are they still filming in 2D? This makes little sense, especially with some of the new developments in 3D technology. Being able to store photorealistic 3D environments and navigating them virtually could would be an extremely useful thing to be able to do. The only problem is that the newest 3D cameras use SONAR as a means of depth perception, and since this is a main form of communication underwater, there may be a Z-axis distortion problem. Still, it would be worth testing.
[insert witty comment here]
We are the space robots. We are here to protect you. Here to protect you from the terrrible secret of Space.