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Anti-Competitive Behavior in the Printer Industry?
Greyfox writes: "Here is an interesting story about the printer industry versus ink-cartridge refillers. Anyone who's bought a low-cost inkjet knows that you can spend over half the cost of the printer on ink. So it was only natural that an industry would spring up around refilling the cartridges. Well the printer industry has apparently been fighting back, trying to protect their market share. As with all good stories, legislation is being considered. Worth a read." Sort of like spyware -- it's a back-and-forth battle.
This is all well and good for your average home user. But god I would hate to try to do technical support on this stuff. Could you imagine trying to explain to someone why their colors look off?
Str8Dog
using System.Darkside; public
HP seems to be the most expensive, with Epson a close second. Canon however has some decent prices on the dual cartridge packs.
I have tried the refill cartridges (a LONG time ago) and found out it was not even worth the effort the first time, much less the third attempt to refill the same cartridge.
You keep going until you die..."Me".
Yeah, every time you buy more ink. Over the lifetime of the printer you may well end up spending several times the original printer cost on ink cartridges.
I don't see what the big deal is. Printer makers have a tough sell trying to get people to pay more to not recycle, and rightly so. One of these companies will eventually have the balls to start making easily refillable cartridges. Their lower margins will be accounted for by their boom in sales.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
The printer business is just latching onto the "razor and blade" business model that worked so well for other industries, especially the video game business.
Sony dumps the PS2 below cost, and then I have to buy only Sony-approved games at high prices. A portion of that goes back to Sony and pays off the real cost of the box.
Is congress investigating them as well?
Gotta love HP. Their new printers use ink refills with "Smart Chips". The chips check ink levels and if they ever increase, the printer refuses to use that cartridge. No more refilling the cartridges. I don't like H-Paq very much.
Do you want to remove linux?
It's cheaper to buy a brand new printer that comes with an ink cartridge and throw away the printer.
I bought a used HP LaserJet 4M for $60 with a full tank o' ink. Oh well.
--- What?
I know someone who doesn't bother buying new cartridges. He just picks up a new printer each time and sells the old one off second hand. He saves about GBP5 a shot doing it that way.
Epson are the worst for this. They have some device on the cartridges which stops you from refilling them (to 'improve quality' apparently). The catch? Take a cartridge out before moving a printer, put it back in again, the printer refuses it.
This reminds me of a certain piece of software which won't work if you change your computer... Except you can't ring up Epson and get them to re-'certify' the ink...
Who actually does this? That little piezo element on the bottom of a ink cartridge is designed to last until the ink tank is empty. Refilling it may save a little money, but the quality of the printouts worsens quickly.
I recently spent over sixty bucks on refilling my Epson 760 because it was clogged. By the time I got it unclogged and my relatively simple tax form printed, I needed another $30 black ink cartridge. The printer companies have been ripping us off for awhile and I'm glad to see some alternatives.
42
I've found quite a few toner refill services that were top-notch. I've only seen one instance where we had a heavy-duty laser printer that actually got damaged from using a refilled toner cartridge.
And, quite on the other hand, I've had a great many inkjet printer get ruined by those crappy Re-Ink refill kits that just don't work.
For starters, there's the human error issue. If I don't fill the cartridge in *just* the right way, the vacuum could force the cartridge to squirt ink back into the printer, and then I have a $200 doorstop. Also, the ink formulas are protected, so Re-Ink and others have to "reverse engineer" them. I imagine they may or may not also have the same facilities for ink production, so with them, I have less of a guarantee that their refill ink will have the proper color-matching...or that the pigment particles will be of a uniform size, and that they won't quickly clog the printhead nozzles.
And that, of course, doesn't factor in that printhead nozzles *will* clog over time, so refilling those cartridges is like trying to increase the pump strength on your water system when the pressure goes down in the shower, but in reality it's because water contaminants got caught in the head nozzle (you could always clean it, but that's beside the point).
Of course, if the printer manufacturer made their cartridges easily refillable, they'd lose a fairly obvious leg up on ink competitors, since your average Joe-blow won't care if he loses some print quality since he saved $10 on the cartridges.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
There's just no point in buying black and color ink carts for $60, when you can buy a new printer, albeit an "older" model, $60-80 that has the ink already. I've bought about 5 printers in the past 2 years now.
I guess I'm not doing my part to "prevent these carts from clogging up landfills" as Lexmark, et al, would like me to do.
I've always thought that ink jet (and laser) printer manufacturers were sticking it to us on refills/new carts. The bloody replacement cartridges for my HP printer cost about 1/4 of the original price of the printer. I think that's excessive and I doubt that the cart's must be that expensive. It's like Kodak of oh, so many years ago; I their case, it was give you the film, the rape you for developing it (I said, the olden days). They would hire people to go into independent film developers places of business and loudly complain about their poor photo-finishing, service, etc.
All things in moderation.
the refill ink is usually not the same consistency and composition of ink made by the manufacturer - and hence ruins the printhead on ALL inkjet/bubblejets. This is the reason why it is not recommended, and sometimes forbidden to use the refill ink.
with that being said, inkjet and bubblejet printer makers are involved in a cut throat environment, which causes them to sell printers for less than cost. Money is made up from the ink you buy. You didn't think you could get bubble jet or piezo technology for that cheap, did you?
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
Not only are legislative solutions being put forth, but technological ones are being used as well.
I own the Epson 777i. It's cartridges have a memory unit on them that stores how much ink they have. You can refill them as much as you like, but the printer will not allow you to use the cartridges because they remember that they're empty.
The only way around this is to put new cartridges in the printer, get the printer to release the cartridges and sneak the refilled ones in, fooling the printer into accepting the refilled cartridges. It then re-writes the memory on the cartridges as full.
Thankfully, cartridge memory isn't an access control for a copyrighted media, or I'd be in violation of the DMCA.
Spyware is immoral and evil. While ink prices are obscene and make me cringe, the company still has a right to set a price on what their cartriges cost. The refilling doesn't stop a user from buying an ink cartridge, it just makes them buy less (on all of the boxes they say to only refill about 3 or so times, it's a good idea to follow that.) Plus, a badly refilled cartige can ruin a printer (oops, leaked ink all over the printer ram.)
This is the same as: Sell the Razor at a loss, make the profit on the blades.
I don't understand why something that's okay at the $3.00 range (blades) isn't okay at the $50 range. I mean really, do you think these guys are making a profit on a $50 printer when the _packaging_ for that printer's gotta cost $12?
Buy a laser printer. The toner doesn't dry out or age. Print 99% of your slashdot articles on it. Buy a cheapie inkjet for the occasional color print you need. Not only is the laser printer faster and easier to read, You'll go 2 or 3 years before needing a new toner cart. (I've got an NEC superscript 870. Bought it in 1997. The first toner cartridge lasted four years and printed 2200 pages with one misfeed. It's on it's second toner cartridge)
Besides, by the time you need ink on your color printer, the NEW color printer will be higher quality. (or USB, or whatever)
I'm actually considering buying a dedicated photo printer as that's all I really use color for now anyway!
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
I really would like to do that to you for calling us linux users incompetent when it comes to networking. EVERY LINUX USERS IS A NETWORK GOD!
How about for people who don't print a lot? I rarely use the printer these days.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
OTOH, I think companies who refill or remanufacture cartridges should be free to do so as well, using whatever technological means they can. In particular, I think the patent office should not grant either functional or design patents on print heads unless the print heads really innovate significantly technologically.
At work we have a Tektronix 860 that uses Wax Sticks Compared to Ink Cartreges or Toner Although the printer is expensive (For the avereage user competitive for buisness use) it comes with free black ink for the life of the printer. (The Color Wax sticks are more expensive) But what you do is just print in black and white and you can save a bundle on expenses. Of course Xerox wants you to print in color more often (and wont tell you that you can setup your print server to print in B and W). But at least the Printer is worth more then the ink.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I don't know about you, but 1/3rd of the refilled laser jet ink carts. we get half to send back as bad.
If I were in HP's shoes I would void the warranty on anyone who used refilled cartridges.
The printing industry doesn't even compare to Sony's PS2 market. Had they sold their PS2 for $80 and charged you $150 per game, and made you renew your license on the game every month or so, then it would be similar.
I've put up with my lexmark and its $40-$50 cartridges simply because it's no better for any other company. You would think a company would come along and sell their printer for a higher price, and drop the ink price... that would drive everyone out of business no? I know I sure as hell would buy it, along with pretty much everyone I know...
I've expected that HP's "highly profitable printer business" (as a news article last week stated) had less to do with selling printers than to do with selling supplies.
Buyer beware. It's not so black and white when the sales people push a miraculous printer in front of you for what seems a bargain price. (Still, it's way better than I got out of my old ALQ 224e 8 years ago)
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Finally all those emails I sent to Epson about being able to track my ink usage and other printing statistics have come to fruition! Because isn't that what we all want? I'd pay twice as much for this feature.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Buying this printer was the worst decision for me ever. It drinks ink like it's koolaid; the color and black cartridges cost $25 and $30, respectively; the printer came with neither a usb cable nor a parallel cable; the ink cartridges have a microchip on them which doesn't allow you to refill them after the printer "thinks" they are empty; etc... All of this for $99, and I was naive enough to think I was getting a good deal. In fact, I bought my mother one also! Anyway, I recently got a Samsung ML-1210 laser printer for $200 (minus $50 gift certificate). Won't be looking back.
or you can do an EEPRoM clear, which, in fact, does the same thing.....(usually by hold down a series of buttons for 5 seconds, then pressing another just after). but you didnt hear it from me.....
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
Since I've noticed I'm not the only guy with the razor and blade analogy, I thought I'd carry it further:
How many people can picture a CowBoyNeal type cursing a blue streak, with band-aids on his fingers trying to re-load a shick Slim Twin razor with a refill kit?
I wonder how much it really costs per page, adjusted for pr0n?
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
My father recently bought a QMS/Minolta MagiColor color laster printer (phew!) -- they're available at all the big computer retailers like Fry's, CompUSA, Best Buy etc for about $1000, less online. (I think I saw $800 from a pricewatch lowballer, but I bet they have an interesting figure for shipping;)).
...
... I suppose what would be best would be a heavy color laser printer bundled *with* a girlfriend ...
One thing I was worried about (and which I don't think the box really says) was whether it came with all of the toner packs necessary to print in color; answer is Yes, it does.
My dad recruited me to help him set it up on a recent visit (literally -- it is *heavy* even for two people, but does have some nice hide-away handles for lifting). It's performed moderately for him on a Windows 98 system; the print quality is really impressive to my tin eyes (not dye sub, but more bang for buck), but the software is apparently flakey.
I can't find any information indicating that this printer works with Linux, or I would probably start scraping together thousands of nickels
But *if* you're on a Windows system (may also work with Macs, I dunno), this is something to think about before shelling out for a color inkjet. Don't buy it if you want to lead a single, mobile lifestyle, though.
Hmm
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
"This printer is licensed to you, not sold. By printing anything with this printer, you indicate your agreement to use only genuine HI-PRIKED replacement ink cartridges. Any other use invalidates your license. You may terminate this agreement by destroying the printer."
This will be called a breakthrough in ineffectual property.
Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)
The solution is all you people who want laws, throw your money into a corporation, and COMPETE.
If you can do it for cheaper, THEN DO IT.
I, myself, can not. I looked at the cost of getting it all to work. There is no way to do it. Since they know you won't pay $600 for a printer, and $5 for cartridges, they do it the way they have to do it to make a profit, albeit a small one.
Epson, HP, Canon, they're not in bed together. This is no boat race. They found out that the average American barely uses their printer, but enough that spending $100-$150 a year on cartridges is not a bad deal, rather than paying $500 for a new printer and $25 a year on cartridges.
There are numerous other ways to print in color. I bought an HP Color LaserJet 4500. I print everything. The damn thing is a personal printer for me, and it runs ALL the time. The cost over the past year? Maybe $200, including tons of toner (thousands of pages printed). I love it. I will NEVER go back to Ink Jet.
Go, compete. The market is open. Once the government regulates, you think it'll help us, or help HP and Epson?
Think hard. I know you can...
If we don't buy genuine HP disposable printer cartridge, Carly won't get her $50M bonus ...
I found this article: http://news.tucows.com/cyberdummy/42345.html at Tucows.com.
I wish companies would price printers at a reasonable rate, and charge as low a price as possible on replacement ink cartidges as a way of guaranteeing that customers keep using the product instead of switching to another brand.
I wish that was the thinking of the companies but their money comes from cartridges not printers. I use a Canon and find it very convenient how Canon breaks up the ink refills by color.
When some family members needed ink refills for their HP I just had them go to Wal-Mart and get a 600 series HP for $40.00 instead of getting a black cartridge for $40, then color for $40. So much cheaper just to keep buying printers rather than cartridges.
Printers would start taking up a lot of space around the house, although you could always sell the printer on Ebay to finance the next one.
Abiit, excessit, evasit, erupit.
Who knows "anti-competitive behavior" better than Billzilla?
Take on a little consulting contract here or there, and pretty soon, he'll have $41 billion in the bank. And once his client has driven all the others out of business, Bill can buy it up.
That explains why so many helpful merchants are able to help me "SAVE UP TO 80% ON INKJET REFILLS! ALL MAKES AND MODELS!"
The really annoying part is that the average home user (which is most of the market for the cheap printers) only realizes this when their ink runs out. All of a sudden their in the middle of a printout and they have to spend a nice chunk of change on new ink. Its a lot like being held hostage. May not be illegal, but its not real good for customer loyalty. Wonder if they figure that into their financial statements under Brand Name value?
Of course these home users could just get a new printer, but these are (for the most part) the folks who "just want it to work" and have no idea how to install a printer. Nor do they want to know. The difference between a cartrage and a new printer also includes having to deal with a salesperson and having someone install the printer.
May not be good karma, but it is good business and good market analysis.
Ok people. Its more than known that refilling those expensive cartdridges are no good for our beloved printers. They are not made on the same materials so they MAY end up damaging the printhead.
Those cartrigdes that monitor ink quantity are a smart move. Id do the same if I was Epson (for example)... because many people end up damaging their printers, calling Epson and getting new ones. Epson and many other companies loses lots and lots of money with that. And there is no way epson can prove the user is wrong (what if he trown the cartridge away)... unfortunately those measures comes only to prevent abuse from some people...
Fabio - Sumare/Sao Paulo/Brazil/South America/Earth/Solar System/Milky Way/Universe
http://www.morroida.com.br
You showed him how you "configure" your M$ Windoze using a silly dialog box and a networking wizard? Unlike a windows user, you cannot be a Linux user without understanding what networking is about.
I own two epson printers.. and I'm looking for a new one at the moment. The main criteria I'm looking for is that its ink will NOT dry up even after long periods of no usage (3 months about). Instead of going with these companies who try to trick the consumers into buying $50 cartridges, I would like to go with a company that isn't screwing over it's customers (well... trying to). Any suggestions?
"Ink costs half what the printer does"
Guess what folks? So do an awful lot of things you buy. I can go out and pick up a $30 discman, and the CDs are still $15+. The discman (or printer) is just a delivery mechanism, it's what you put in it that actually matters at the end.
What I found lacking in the article (and all posts so far) is a biggie for me: most printer manufacturers will void your warranty if you use recycled cartridges, and with good reason. Last time I had to maintain several laser printers, every time some dingbat (read: the boss) went and ordered a recycled toner cartridge, the printer(s) died within a few weeks of using it. Recycled toner and ink cartridges tend to be a LOT lower quality than new ones, they leak all over the place, etc. I'm not even going to start with those needle-injection packages you can buy for the home.
Although I don't think printer manufacturers should be able to PREVENT someone else selling ink, they sure as hell shouldn't have to pay (because of damage) for someone else's incompetence. Oh, and for those that bring up the old "Honda doesn't force you to buy their gasoline" argument... go pick up a new car and install a 3rd party stereo system sometime, and see just what your warranty covers now.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Look at the economics -- a printer is a one-time sale; you've collected the customer's money, and they've got their printer. Ink is a fungible; it gets used up, and you have to buy more. If a printer manufacturer can come up with a mechanism to ensure that the people who buy their printers have to buy their ink, they have a steady revenue stream.
Look at the relative costs. Printer prices have been going down almost as fast as memory prices. With some of the low-end ink-jet printers, once you buy more than one or two OEM ink cartridges, you've spent more on cartridges than you did on the printer. And over the printer's lifetime, looking at the OEM costs for some of these ink-jet cartridges, you're going to spend on ink several times what you spent on the printer. Think about what the automobile market would be like if you had to buy your oil, gasoline, tires, and every other consumable or replacement component for your car from the company that made your car. That's what the printer manufacturers want.
Several companies tried, back when the high-resolution ink-jet printers were first coming out, to achieve that kind of control over the other fungible supply for printers -- paper. They brought out special ink-jet paper 'specially designed for high-resolution printing' and ran ad campaigns suggesting that you would be producing sub-standard printouts if you used non-OEM paper. That lasted until the big paper manufacturers ramped up to produce the same products, and unlike ink cartridges, there was no way for the printer manufacturers to put in mechanisms to force consumers to use OEM paper.
Printer manufacturers have also claimed that using non-OEM inks would damage their printers, and that using non-OEM inks would void the warranty. However, the manufacturers were required to stop this tactic; under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and general principles of the Federal Trade Commission Act, a manufacturer may not require the use of any brand of ink (or any other article) unless the manufacturer provides the item free of charge under the terms of the warranty. This hasn't prevented salesdroids and tech-support people from claiming that, but they'll fold if you press them.
It may be an ongoing back-and-forth struggle, but market forces are going to continue to pry fungible supplies sales away from printer manufacturers.
read the article...
its the refillers that will be benefitting from legislation.
the laws are aimed at *requiring* the use of recylced cartriges.
....now I'm a criminal for trying to refill my "Hexmark" inkjet!
Where's this stuff gonna stop, there's already enough on me to send me up the river and to "the chair"....
What's capitalism coming to when you actually have to compete?
I remember reading someone who went over HP's books, and concluded the printer consumables business was basically propping up the rest of the company.
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
The situation in regards the high cost of replacement inkjet cartridges reminds me a lot of the famous case where the US government said that IBM could not force users of punch card readers to use ONLY punch cards manufactured by IBM. I think what will end up happening is that the Feds may end up forcing every printer manufacturer to sell off their inkjet cartridge/laser printer toner cartridge manufacturing operations to 3-4 third parties so you do have competition in terms of pricing for printer consumables.
:-)
It's a good thing my printer is an Epson Stylus COLOR 860--the last of the Epson models to NOT use the ink cartridge with the computer chip. That way, I can get a replacment ink cartridge set (B&W and color) for US$14.
Remember the people who made knock-off Nintendo games? When Nintendo started trying to ship consoles that wouldn't play those games, the government came down on them.
So, it's only a matter of time before somebody figures out how to make ps2 games (or ink cartridges). Or is that against the DMCA now? Is the smartchip on a printer cartridge an encryption device? Now here's a thought (for all you conspiracy lovers out there): Put a chip on every widget you sell, and make the widget communicate with the mother widget to function. Bam, you've got the DMCA in your ammo box.
Slashdot 's editors are dickheads
My wife has an Epson Color 440 and she insists on refilling using Pellican refills. The printer works like crap. I suspect the ink refills suck ass.
Does anybody recommend a better brand?
I keep telling her to throw away the printer, but that's not right in her opinion.
i buy my refills from costco, save about $10 every trip and still get the "real brand".
-rp
You can do refills pretty easily with some printers.
I've been refilling my Canon BJC-4000 for over 3 years now. It's not a process for the faint of heart (or those that hate to get dirty!), but it can be done.
I use the big BC-21 black ink tanks which have a plug in the top that you can get out fairly easily. Then I just inject the ink into the sponge inside with a syringe. A bit of cleanup, put the plug back in, and it's done. It takes less than 10 minutes.
Not only that, the ink from the supplier I found is, IMO, much better than Canon's. It's darker and seems to print a bit clearer.
I bought a big (500mL) bottle of ink for $99CDN and by the time I'm done with it I'll have got close to 50 refills out of it. A cartridge costs $40CDN. Do the math!
Well, actually I can only get about 3-5 refills out of a cartridge before the print head gets too clogged, at which point I still have to buy a new cartridge. But that's a lot better than buying a new one every single time!
I simply couldn't afford to own a printer without refills. It's something I intend to look into carefully when I buy my next printer. If a manufacturer goes out of the way to make refilling difficult, then I'll go out of my way to avoid buying their product.
Combining all three or four colors (cyan, magenta, yellow, sometimes even black) in one physical cartridge unit, so that when one color runs out, you HAVE to replace the others, even though they may be perfectly full still!
It's pretty much the norm, I've noticed in the inkjet world.
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Before I got a job as a Beowulf admin, I used to work at a company that refills and remanufactures printer cartridges. It is absolutely amazing the profit levels that HP, Canon, et. al. must make. We resell the cartridge for a fraction of the amount as the OEM's and make a handsome profit.
Think about it: you're spending $40 for a tiny package of carbon black. The printing industry has been taking notes from De Beers on how to extort money from carbon.
I tried the drill into the top and refill it yourself once. The image quality dropped to that of an Imagewriter. What's worse is even after buying a new cartridge the printer was never quite the same. I ended up buying another printer. I'll never buy refills or recycled again.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
I own a TI Microlaser Pro and it is insane the protections they have built into the the thing. In this particular printer there is an imaging cartridge as well as toner. You are supposed to replace the imaging piece every 10,000 prints, but those things still look good at 30,000 prints and up. But they have a little fuze in them that will get tripped when the print count gets that high. Plus there is an internal counter on the toner and the imager that if not reset properly will turn off the printer. Luckily the TI division was bought out by HP and they don't make that printer anymore and so they have released the secret reset codes for the TI. But it was a pain in the ass to get the thing reset the counters and allow me to continue printing.
-Matt
I have an assortment of Epson printers. It appears that their evolution on this front has been:
As I say, I don't have one of the latest types and I never will buy one.
Cannon has some printers that actually use a detector of ink prescence. I haven't tried it but in theory adding ink would suffice. If I were buying again, I would give them a try.
Lexmark does (did not) publish yield numbers. When I corresponded with them, they still did not provide info but offered to do so on a per model basis.
All of this digging was targeted at the dream of decent home photo printing. In the end I find that the online photo services are superior. Most of the prints that are done in color would be just fine in B/W anyway.
The only thing that this attitude from the inkjet vendors has done is increase my appreciation for my LED printers and renew my commitment to keeping them operational.
All my previous sigs now look like this one, I wish they were permanetly recorded when used.
I've got an HP, but after reading this I'm highly unlikely to buy an Epson if that's their attitude -- the old "it's not a swindle, it's a service" line is pretty transparent.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Yet again I find that a product I buy and own for my personal use, that the manufacturer wants me now to keep paying them money to use it. At least I thought this one through before I bought mine. But I'd be willing to guess if they made a point of saying something BEFORE folks slapped down their hard earned bucks, they'd have bought a different printer.
After all, if I use a polaroid instant camera, I know I can only use their film in the camera. It's very clear that only their film will work. But, when I bought a printer, one of the things I checked on is the cost of the carts before I spent dime one. One of the selling points to me was that I could buy a refill kit. Maybe what we as consumers should do is start boycotting the companies that do these kinds of things and start supporting the refill markets.
Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
it seems the newest lexmark inkjets will call home about their status - anyone have details on this?
2 years ago, I bought a digital camera. I won't mention the brand - it was a junky $100 job from Best Buy. It used its own proprietary batteries, which costed about $10 a piece. With the price of batteries alone, I was spending about $10/hr to use my camera.
So I dumped the camera for another one, spending $400 this time (got a much better camera), and also found one that took AA batteries. Alkaline batteries drain a little faster - but they are so much cheaper because they are massed produced - now I pay about $2/hr to use my camera - still too expensive, but better than before.
So apply this to printers - if someone developed a 'universal' print cartridge that would work in multiple printers, the cost of production would drop, and likewise the consumer's cost would also drop.
The big question is, who would be the first printer company to turn down their profits from ink-cartridge sales and develop the universal cartridge?
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -- "Step Right Up", Tom Waits
I have two printers, a Laser and an Inkjet. Lasers have a great economics with cost per page. Office depot brand toner cartriges are $58 a piece for my HP laserjet 4L. The inkjet is much more expensive per page, but I have found the my local Costco has inkjet cartridges @ $30 for a 2 pack. I really don't like the idea of buying a cheap printer to throw out, seems like an awful disrespect to the environment. If really want to go on the cheap, find yourself a used laserjet. A local shop near me, has plenty of laserjet 3,4,and 5 series printer at around $100, including toner. I have had mine since 1995 without any problems, doesn't get more cost effective than that. Too bad HP and Compaq are merging, HP was once a great company that made great products.
i didn't know microsoft made printers!
--fetch daddy's blue fright wig, i must be handsome when i release my rage
Why is it that there is so much cut throat competition and insanity in the computing world. Look at things like auto makers as a comparision. Sure if you buy a car you can get "genuine" Chev parts (we will use chevy for an example) but look at the other companies, Mopar etc, who have the ability to make the same parts/services. You would think it is completely stupid if you had to buy "chevy oil" every time you needed a lube job, a "chevy altenator" if you needed to replace it, or even "chevy tires" when they need replacing. What makes computing that much differnent.
So I got an "Epson chip resetting kit" and generic ink cartridges. It's pretty easy to use - you take out the old ink cartridge, pop out the chip with a little plastic tool that comes with the resetter, insert the chip in the resetter. Wait a couple of seconds for an LED to change color, then insert the chip in the new cartridge. Then install the new cartridge as Epson's instructions direct.
The chip resetter wasn't cheap - $36, but the ink was - $7 and $9 for B/W and color, respectively. I figure the total fixed cost of $116 for printer and resetter is still reasonable, and $16 for a pair of cartridges is much more reasonable. Also, I got my mother an identical printer, so I can just reuse the resetter since I am her official administrator.
Then again, if I were printing a lot, I'd get a refurbed laser printer. Their per-page cost is way lower than inkjet.
There are continuous refill systems that store ink in large printer-external reservoires.
is that Primus quote from the Brown (read: shit) albumn? get something off Chesse or Frizzle Fry for god's sake....
I read someplace that Canon printheads were user serviceable... but I can't find the link now.
I think not even having to worry about the ink (by buying in bulk) and being able to print color pages to my hearts content sounds much better than cheaper cartridges (think: no cartridges.) [2] There was a neat testimonial where some user printed large color spreads that would have cost a fortune w/o a continous flow system.
______
[1] I meant to click [preview] not [submit].
[2] I was thinking of getting a kit for my Epson740, but I lost the printhead (moisturizing?) sponge for it, so I was thinking of getting a Canon instead.
--
Join The (Hopefully) Great Slashdot Blackout April 21-27 [slashdot.org].
You do realize that T[H]GSB was done over a week ago, right?
Nothing, in my humble experience, beats printing out source code on fan-fold paper on impact printers, hence I still have my old Alps ALQ 224e. Trying to organize single sheets of code from a 500+ line module can get really hairy. Besides, it's much easier to draw notes from page to page, however long a segment I'm focusing on spans. Have laser printers and work and just hate printing source on them.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
apparently you only got to the mention of ink-jet in the article before something shiny caught your eye off in the distance.
Explain forbidden? It's my printer, I own it outright. I can do whatever I want with it, including use bizarre ink.
What you get for that cheap is not relevant.. you are still ultimately purchasing hardware outright.
Which printers DON'T use these tactics?
(i.e. which could I buy with a clean conscience?)
Another reason for the chip to count/disable/whatever is to thwart those companies who take empty carts, refill them them selves then sell them as "Oringinal" carts for full price. We have seen a lot of that here. People order their ink carts online, paying a slightly reduced price. Turns out, they were buying refilled carts and had no idea.
They prey on the people who don't want to refill their carts, and think they're getting a good deal.
Jason
He's totally creeping out the Great One, eh...
Why can't you put your sig in the sig field of your preferences like everybody else so we don't have to see it?
Is it really worth all the extra effort to paste it in every time to spam people with information they don't care about because it's ancient, stupid, and irrelevent?
We don't care what happened to the censorware project 2 years ago. let us opt-out of your damn sig. (If your "essay" weren't so damn whiny maybe I wouldn't care. Welcome to life, here's your shit.)
I'll drink to that. The printer manufacturers are essentially trying to lock people, by both technological (like smartchips and whatnot) and legislative (?!?) means into using just their ink.
I can see only one possible reason to even try to lock consumers into using one and only one source for their ink -- because each manufacturer uses a different configuration of ink paths and print nozzles in their cartridges, and a sufficiently wrong third party formulation of ink might leak out, print funny, etc.
But then it gets back to the question of why the printer manufacturers would object if the printer got busted and leaked all over everything, since it's the customer's fault for "tampering" with the standard operation of the printer.
More likely they don't want the consumer thinking "Ho hum, this printer's broken, might as well go out and by another underpriced printer."
You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.
I'm surprised that I can't find any posts explaining why printer manufacturers are against refills (other than the knee jerk "they want all my money" response).
I had the chance to meet one of the inventors of ink jet printing awhile back, and he explained why the HP "smart chip" would be (it wasn't rolled out yet then), a Good Thing(tm).
Most ink cartridges today have print heads on them already, which is a big part of their cost. Now obviously, the print head on an inkjet cartridge doesn't last forever. With today's really high printing resolutions, this head is a device which has to spit out pico-liters of ink with very precise timing. The ink must be at the correct temperature so as not to evaporate before hitting the paper or to stay wet on the paper for too long. All this requires a pretty sophistocated print head which wears down with use. After enough use, printing performance actually suffers.
The only way to guarantee printing quality under these conditions is to make sure the printing head is replaced periodically (i.e. with a new cartridge). By allowing cartridge refilling, there's no way to guarantee the print head gets replaced when it needs to be, and thus they wouldn't be able to guarantee that "an HP printer will always print quality." So there's actually a QA issue.
HP has developed a separate print head / ink assembly, but generally only very high volume printers use this type of solution (because it's not cost effective for Joe Q. Consumer to buy a gallon container of red ink), and even then they have to separately replace the print head occasionally.
If you don't like spending $70 for a set of black and color ink cartridges, just go spend $80 for a brand new printer that comes with a black and color ink cartridge set.
Chances are, it'll be faster and have better output... and just imageine all the dead printers you can use to make decorative borders for your garden!
As ink jet technology advances there are advances in both printhead(or ink jet) design and in ink technology. Refillers want you to believe that thier ink is the same as the manufacturers ink, but it rarely, if ever, is. Why should the mfg of the printer be responsible for the poor quality of refill cartridges? The tech support costs alone for printers damaged by third party cartridges are astronomical.
If refillers want to sell ink, they should honor the voided warranties of thier customers.
This might not be true but a few people have said that they've noticed an interesting quirk with their HP printers.
They've said that they bought generic brand photo paper for their printers and selected 'other photo paper' in the HP drivers.. and the prints came out fine.
They then decided to select 'HP Photo Paper' in the drivers, and the prints came out far better!
Could this be similar behavior to that mentioned in the story?
mogorific carpentry experiments
once they figure out how to force you legally to use their ink... printer prices will skyrocket too.
Is it just me.. or did it used to be the other way. They would come out with a new model of printer every year and redesign the ink cartridge... the effect being the old ink cartridges would get more and more expensive and harder to find.. forcing you to buy a new printer.
I've seen several side by side examples of the print quality of some original cartridges and replacement ink cartridges where the replacement ink was clearly more vibrant and gave better coverage. Saving money on ink does not always equate to a loss of some print quality.
Get a new word. Fungible doesn't quite fit. Try consumable
Subject says it.
antipop bozo.
i'll consider your opinion.
how is:
They call me Mr. Knowitall....
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
How about a Beowulf cluster of ink carts then? Would that be smart enough to run H-Paq? VMS?
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
I spent a year in Iraq looking for WMD and all I found was this lousy sig.
I have a number of friends who work printer support, and those cheapass "refill" kits are mostly a scam. Number of problems: the jet heads clog if they go dry. The jet heads clog if you get case fragments into them. The refill kits don't always seal properly and leak ink.
Why does this impact the printer company? Because the same cheapskate who won't buy another cartridge then sees the shitty print quality, and calls them demanding a new cartridge... Quite often, if under warantee, they end up getting one. Good luck proving someone refilled theirs.
For me, it's a non-issue. The only printers I use take toner by the gallon. Crappy streaky inkjets are worth exactly what you pay for them. (Nothing after a rebate, usually) And it's nothing but an idiot tax. Buy a more expensive printer, pay less per page down the road. Gee, buy a better car, pay less in gas milage later too. I don't see people forcing those gas-guzzling SUVs off the road anytime soon.
BTW: The printer is nothing but a paper-dispenser and a power supply. Most of the expensive bits are in the cartridge. They're not dumping, and they're not charging you $50 for 2 oz of ink.
--Dan
It's been more than 5 years now, but I used to work repairing printers, and the refills (for both inkjet and laser printers) were bad news. Part of this can be chalked up to poor printer design. Most printers on the market today have the "print head" and the ink tank bundeled into one package, or in the case of laser printers, the imaging drum and the toner bundled into one package. Refills work on the principle that the print head/imaging drum is more durable than the resevoir, so in theory you should be able to replace one without the other.
This is true, on a well-designed printer where the two parts are separate assemblies. (Some canon printers operate this way; a replacement ink tank is only a few dollars while a whole cartridge is ~$30 - 50 US.) The problem is that refills, at least in those days, were difficult to perform correctly. I believe that it is even harder today, as cartridges are more complex while the refill technology doesn't appear to have improved. We used to see a large number of printers come into our shop damaged by improperly performed refills. Of course, in those days this was worse news, as a new inkjet was typically around $300 US and a new cartridge was around $30 US. This is true of a good printer today as well.
In short, if you have a good printer, the refills are not worth it. You most likely will wind up damaging the printer, and of course the warranty does not cover damage from non-approved cartridges/refills. If it's a really cheap printer, the risk/reward scenario is quite different. The cartridges do not last as long on the cheapies, and represent a higher proportion of the cost of the printer. I prefer a nice printer and a lower cost per page, though. If this is your situation, the refills are almost certainly a false economy.
.sig: file not found
The LJ 4 series are damn fine machines. I dug an old Laserjet 4 Plus out of a dupmster that had a full toner cartridge in it. All the printer needed was a half-decade of dirt and paper powderblown out with compressed air, and a little soap & water on a rag to clean all the rubber rollers so they'd grip the paper again. Total cost, about 2 hours worth of labor to give it a little TLC and it's printing fine once again. Best of all it has a JetDirect ethernet card in it too :-)
Heck, I might even spring for another toner cart when the current one runs out. I'll bet the unit is still printing strong then.
I had read that Epson cartrigdes would note when they are out of ink and diasable the cartridge after that point - I don't know if they also do an ongoing level check or not.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
What's even worse is the true cost of the ink.
Chemically the ink is water with 1/1000 or less of dye added. Dye that cost pennies per cart or less. Mostly water and we're paying more than gasoline, good booze, etc..?
laser is the way to go.
...to mention that the copyright to everything you print with that printer will also automatically become intellectual property of the manufacturer of the printer.
Ink is a fungible; it gets used up, and you have to buy more.
That word, I do not think it means what you think it means
Yeah, he's testy, but he's right. I, too, am sick of the Libertarian bullshit of telling me to start a company every time that I voice a complaint about a product or service.
I'm sick of hearing about how the "free market" will fix everything. The only thing that the free market will guarantee is a lot of companies that are very efficient at generating profits. If the free market is so f****** wonderful, explain Microsoft!
I'd rather have consumer protection laws passed and enforced by a government with no stake in the transactions than have a bunch of big companies collude to cheat consumers.
Don't you worry about that evil old government. Enron is working for your best interests.
And scrap the crap ink. :P~ Them and those "RhinoInk" things clogged up more than 1 printer.. even a brand new one.
At least the actual Epson carts. work well..
At the office where I work, we've got a little cardboard-box contraption which dispenses single-dose medication -- Tylenol, Excedrin, etc. This device says, in large red letters: "Warning! Use only genuine refills", and then goes on about how not only would it be illegal to put Tylenol obtained from some other source in the dispenser, it would also be very dangerous.
I am not making this up.
All the paper selection does is select the volume and pause time between droplets. Generally for HP photopaper settings they will use a fairly high volume droplet and set the pause time a little higher. This is due to knowing the clay contents and finish of their photopaper. For generic photopaper they assume a semiglossy stock and so they use smaller droplets with a shorter pause time to avoid bleeding in the paper fibers.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Cars are expensive, gasoline isn't.
It's just like the game console industry. I hate loss leader products. Why not sell things at their true cost and peripherals at THEIR true cost.
I don't know why we've let the printer industry get away with corrupting the marketplace so. It appears to be at a point now where everybody is doing it, so if one honest manufacturer started shifting the cost of manufacture of the printer back into the sale price of the unit itself, and perhaps introduced a simple inexpensive refill kit with little ink bottles for each print head, that line of printers would appear "expensive" compared to the rest of the closed systems where the up-front cost appears more agreeable, and so they would not sell as many units and probably fall back in line with the rest of the dirtbags quickly.
This is almost certainly just "capitalism at work", but it seems difficult to defend the sordid practice because no real competition appears to take place that benefits the consumer.
The deceptively low printer unit price is bait to lure the consumer into purchasing the absolutely necessary and ridiculously overpriced refills, which is the real product being sold. It's neither fair nor honest. A printer should be just a printer, not a computerized robbery device designed to hit honest people up for money whenever the dirty printer manufacturer feels like it.
I work for a company that makes genuine ink cartridges and the main problem we find in our testing is that refill cartridges clog the nozzles on the printer. When you're going at 1440 and 2880 DPI, even one grain of dust introduced into the system will clog those nozzles, and those nozzles are in the printer, not the cartridge. There's a reason ink cartridges are made in a clean room environment.
I personally have no problem if someone wants to put a refill cartridge in their printer, but as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to warranty or tech support, they are on their own at that point. I have seen ideas that will be able to identify by a code printed by a printer whether a refill cartridge has been used, and I have no problem with that.
As far as I'm concerned, if you want to water down the gas in your car to get cheaper refills, that's fine with me. But don't go crying to the dealer when it won't start after 10,000 miles.
Except Sony didn't sell Playstations at a loss. Atari tried to sue them for dumping, because the announced introductory price was so outrageously low compared to the competition. But Sony was able produce them for cheaper, and the exchange rate helped them too. Read the story here.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
The revenue model here is practiced by many industries apart from computer printers. Razor manufacturers, water filtration devices, and motorized tooth brushes are good examples. Razors, Brita water filteration units, and electric motorized tooth-brushes are sold at cost and sometimes below cost by manufacturers because they know the real revenue stream is the consumables that are used later on.
If you don't like it, just don't buy a printer. Why have a hard copy anyway? Just killing trees for no reason.
My rant at this point is how I try not to laugh when I see people printing out online documentation. Hello, it is online, why bother printing it?!?!
It is about a color laser network printer that prints nice glossy color on Regular paper. Xerox will give you one for free right now if you qualify (print 2000-3000 pages a month) for the program and agree to print and fax a use report once a month. There are no strings attached and you can cancel any time just pay shipping to return the printer (they pay shipping to give you the printer). (We got into the program by agreeing to print 2750 pages a month) If you think you could print anywhere near 2000 pages a month you really should not let this one slip by. Our computer guy thinks that Xerox is doing a "real world use trial." All I know is so far it is a deal that is too good to be true :)
This is the web site:
http://www.freecolorprinters.com/
This is what I agreed to (the supplies are not too expensive and
You can use any paper you want):
PROGRAM HIGHLIGHTS
As a Xerox FreeColorPrinters customer, you have agreed to...
- Purchase supplies directly from FreeColorPrinters.com.
Customers can conveniently purchase
supplies from our Members Only website.
- Print XXXX pages every month. If your monthly average falls
below this number, you will
receive a $75 billing for that month.
- Supply a monthly usage report via fax. If you do not submit a
report, you will receive a $100
billing for that month. Directions for easily printing and
faxing this report can be found in
the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) in the Members Only
website.
After participating in the program for 36 months, the title to
the printer is transferred from
Xerox to you, the customer. At this point, the printer is yours
to keep with no further
obligation.
I just bought an epson for about 40 bucks, sold my canon for twenty. And I'll get 15 bucks back for the rebate.
So I spend 5 bucks every year on a new printer. Of course in about 2 years there going to stop including ink cartidges, but I'll deal with that then.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Buy cheap printers and expect to pay cheap ink prices. I spent a little more on my printer then the average person would because I use my printer. My carts, while expensive, are well under the cost of the printer combined (color +B&W). My printer doesn't jam, can do Duplex printing (with a $79 option) and with another option, can even be put on a jet direct server. I bought a HP Photosmart 1115 for around $299. It was only 200 more then the cheap Lexmark my brother bought. He constantly complains about jams and stuff with his while I have had nary a problem. Anyone see the problem?? His ink costs about the price of the printer to replace (or within a few bucks...). Anyone see a point here? You can't get a cheap printer and expect to have equally cheap ink. It will never happen. You CAN buy a moderately priced printer and get quality, decent priced ink and less hassle.
I think that printer manufactures low prices are not just to hike up cartrdige prices...I think it's to get users to dump old printers. We have several printers on campus that out lasted the computers they were bought for (or bought to service). This is OK because businesses almost always by HP Ink. PLus they know if the printer lasts, then you will buy 10 more printers when the old ones get old. It's called assuring income. Those same printers that last 10 years at work will last 20 plus years at home because we don't print as much at home. Money has to be made somewhere.
My point is if you spend more then 100 bucks on a printer, you are going to have a good experience. If you cheap out on it, well, you'll have a printer....and you may as well buy a new printer when it's ink runs out.
Gorkman
An HP 51645A (Very Popular Ink Cart) Costs around $30.00 (US dollars) and Contains 42 Mililiters of ink. That is $0.71 cents per mililiter or $714.29 per liter. I do not care how much "Development" goes into the ink there is no way it costs HP that much to produce it. And Lexmark cartidges cost more than that. Look it up the next time some best buy sales person tries to tell you how good they are based soley on the initial cost.
Insert sig here (slashdot) Insert cig here (Lewinsky)
They then decided to select 'HP Photo Paper' in the drivers, and the prints came out far better!
This might not be a conspiricy - most 'Photo' paper is designed to be non-absorbing. It's designed to keep the ink at the surface of the paper so it looks vibrent. The 'Other Photo Paper' is probably set to squirt out a small amount of ink, so that it doesen't run on really non-absorbant paper.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Just go on ebay, type in the name of your printer, and you can buy black + color dual packs for under $10. Just don't buy the namebrand ink - there is no difference in the quality, and all you are doing is giving your money to HP. (Did you know that HP makes 50% of their profit from ink sales, even though ink sales are only 10% of their revenue?!)
Hello All,
I've got a related question: I have recently gotten a HP Deskjet 940C. I have also got a rather large stack of 45 large black ink cartridges. But the 940 now takes type 15, which contains a lot less ink than 45 (of course the price doesn't scale the same way - bastards).
While the 15 fits in printers that take 45, the 940 printer refuses to accept the 45 (LED keeps blinking), even though it is otherwise identical. Is there a way of getting these things to work ? It seems to be electronically protected. I read something about putting tape over a certain contact but this does not work either. Some people apparently have also seen 45 cartridges been used in store models of 940.
greetings,
Tom
One of the reasons I like Kyocera laser printers. Very very low cost per page running costs. Almost 1/10 the cost per page of other laser printers.
Inkjets are spectacularly expensive per page. A cartridge only lasts a couple of hundred pages. That's fine if you only print 100 pages per year at regular intervals since they clog as well.
My next home printer will be a laser.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
of Lincolnshire, Illinois recycles these babies. Ring their 800 number, ask for the postage paid recycling address label.
Worked wonders for the HP LJ4000, half the price, twice the quality. Ifen we kin git enuf of the HP 4100 carts into dere hanz, we be in tall cottun.
Last year, I picked up a Xerox WorkCentre M940 for less than $100 at OfficeMax - not bad for a decent scanner, copier, and printer, especially one with indiviual ink taks for each color so you don't have to waste ink just because one color wears out.
I was a bit shocked when I went in to buy an extra set of cartridges at the same store: I was looking at almost $150 for a set of replacement cartridges (to be fair, that included the higher capacity black cartridge.)
Anyway, I balked and went online to find a better deal. I ordered from AcuJetUSA, since it looked like they had a high quality, professinal cartridge. Whn I finally tried them, I found that the AcuJet ink (these were replaceemnt cartridges, not some cheesy refill kit) was of a VASTLY DIFFERENT COMPOSITION from the Xerox originals. After replacing only the black cartridge, it's now impossible to print anything with multiple colors - the black ink bleeds almost 1/16" into any adjacent colored area, something that never happened with the Xerox ink. In addition, the AcuJet ink is "wetter", leaving the paper puckered and wavy from moisture even when printing an all-black page.
To AcuJet's credit, even though the normal 30-day return period was up, they've agreed to take all the cartridges back and return my money. (I'll send them back in a day or two, and we'll see.)
I will be buying geniune Xerox cartridges from now on, though. The hassle of returning these alone isn't worth the money I would have saved. Amazon seems to have about the best deal among the reliable vendors. (I don't want a refilled cartridge passed off as new...)
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
NCR had an ink cart (ribbon cart for dot matrix) called the "answer casette". I believe it sold for around $20...until the patent ran out, now you can get them for like $3 made by someone else.
I believe this one model answer casette is the most-profitable tangible product NCR has ever had.
As for making things easier to refill...My parents just bought an HP OfficeJet d135 (AMAZING printer BTW, it's by far the best form factor and easiest to use officejet I've ever seen).
Anywah, the print heads and ink carts are separate (not combined like we're used to). I don't know what the strategy is here. Feel free to speculate all you want.
"Printer manufacturers have also claimed that using non-OEM inks would damage their printers, and that using non-OEM inks would void the warranty. However, the manufacturers were required to stop this tactic; under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and general principles of the Federal Trade Commission Act, a manufacturer may not require the use of any brand of ink (or any other article) unless the manufacturer provides the item free of charge under the terms of the warranty. This hasn't prevented salesdroids and tech-support people from claiming that, but they'll fold if you press them."
I work for selling these types of products. At one point two years ago I was _ordered_ by management to tell customers exactly that if it came up. I knew it was a lie so I fought them on it. It took my sending e-mail to three different higher ups in the company to get the store management to change theyr policy on the issue.
One sweet feature I forgot to mention about the d235 is that it is self-aligning. Instead of the old:
- printer prints page with lines
- you chose best alignments and tell software
The printer now:
- prints onto paper, looks at paper, adjusts, repeats...until it is perfect.
Pretty cool
I got one too, after finding the chips on my HP printer cartridges and getting very pissed off. The cyan would go "empty" and shut down the whole printer! I refuse to play that game, so no more HP products for me. Ever. I love the Minolta.
Most lasers cost 1 - 3p per page, most injets are 4 - 12p per page.
Kyocera laser printers running costs are 0.3p per page. The trick is the drum is ceramic and is guaranteed for 100,000 pages. Their toner is also inexpensive.
Their printers are marginally more expensive than the others in the market but in a small business they pay for the difference within the first 10,000 pages.
Have you noticed how magazine articles on printers never quote the cost per page? This is the solution for keeping running costs down. Insist that the magazines quote costs per page.
Deleted
I did a cost comparison a while back with some friend's printers (we were all bitching about the cost of carts). It all depends on the capacity of the cart. If you have the HP 45A cart (fully-filled 45 cart) you're getting some pretty good cost-per-page. I did and had the best CPP out of us. Looking into a few brands (HP, Cannon, one other) the CPP were all about the same, and lower when you got into the nicer printers (like mine).
I think it just makes sense. If you pay more for the printer, they don't have to make as much $$ on the cartridges.
Boo fucking hoo, you have to see someone's .sig file. Dear God, you must be an anal son of a bitch to whine about something as insignificant as that!
.sigs where ever I fucking please. Don't look at them if you don't fucking like them.
Blow me fucknut. I'll post my goddamn
I work at Fry's...well, hopefully I won't in a day or so, but until then I still do. Anyway, I work in the computer accessories department, and we sell two kinds of refill kits. Both include a syringe with needle.
We have to throw out several packages a week that have been broken into. Guess what's missing? The syringe!
Remember, just say no.
Fast, low operating costs, free black ink, fantastic color. If only there were consumer models...
What OS do you use to run that printer, and have you encountered the software flakiness my dad has? (Something to do with the spooler being corrupt, he says, secondhand from the tech support guy at Minolta.) It seeems to work for a while, then go down for a while, then back up; the hardware checks out (via some sort of remote check I'm surprised they could do through his firewall, but Hey, I wasn't there, and maybe they were using an imaginary test device and guessing a lot ;)), but the software seems to tend toward corruption even after reinstall.
Do you by chance run it with Linux or one of the BSDs? Any reason to think it would or would not work with those?
Cheers,
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Look at these companies' financial statements. Nobody is making an obscene amount of money selling ink-jet printers and supplies.
Why not? Because it's an incredibly competitive industry, in which they take a huge loss (up to $100) on every printer sold, and make it up on cartridges.
Nobody gives you the right to buy a $49 printer (which cost over $150 to make, ship, stock, and promote) and then complain that the evil printer manufacturer wants to pay some salaries now.
And for you refillers...you had a great idea, reaping the rewards of the printer manufacturers' R&D by tapping into their profit stream. And then you complain when they try to protect themselves.
End game:
1. consumables drop in price, refillers' price advantage goes away
2. printer manufacturers raise printer prices to make money again
3. consumers who only print occasionally get hammered.
Printers are on the decline, god willing. I'm sick of paper jams, ink smears, paper jams, dried ribbons, tractor feed, old paper, new paper, paper period.
Several of the compaines that make the print heads and other printer bits decided to get into the Point of Sale area. The POS people have been using $4 ribbons and cheap paper for a long time using nice 8 pin dot matrix and are very sensitive to the consumbales costs. The result is that now there are some very long life good inkjets that will use any ink you care to dump in them and have running costs lower than dot matrix printers. The big players aren't going to intorduce these into the consumer or business market yet but the noname tiawan compaines have already started. In a few years these $75 printers that use $50 worth of ink every week will be gone but only if people stop buying name brand printers. BTW the epson RX80 I got for a birhtday present in '82 still works great for program listings so I can see why people can get loyal to a printer brand.
They should seperate the print head and the ink cartridges.
So that I can replace only the ink cartridge when it's out of ink. And I'll replace the print head when "necessary".
Razors and water filters are doing all the work--the razor or pitcher is just a glorified handle that can't cost more than a few dollars to make. I haven't looked at electric toothbrush consumables, because that's a level of laziness I can't even aspire to (and vibration can't be great for your wrists).
They do this in large printers. I have 2 HP DesignJet 1050c pluses. They have 4 350ml ink cartidges. Each ink cartridge is $160. Each print head (ther are 4) is $140. So to replace all inks and all printhead in ONE printer is $1200.
You guys need to quit bitchin' about $60 worth of cartidges. Either buy them or build your own damn printer.
as i stated in the comment, they do (or at least did), but only in higher end (mostly high volume) products. the cartridges were called something like the "Z" line (sorry if this name is way off, it's been a few months since I talked to the guy) and it makes sense that the more complex technology which would allow a separate ink supply to align appropriately with the head (and deal with the tricky near-head temperature problems) would cost more (and thus not be available in low range products).
wish i could go on, but i have a final tomorrow, so i have to sleep now.
The above post is a VERY good idea. I hope Dell management reads Slashdot.
Well... no that im that much of a straight hacker, but HP's way to differentiate between their own cartidriges (HTF does one write that?) is, at best, cheap and stupid.
For example, arround your standard 12000 inkjet printer there are many models, and they really dont differ much one from another but on the way they talk to a little chip in the cartidri...ink thingie.. So, what i do is buy the cheapest and then break the patent by swaping chips between one ink thingie i got for my model and the cheapest ink thingies i can find.... it works, only sometimes it doesnt detect the ink levels properly....
NO SIG
It's not cheaper to just buy a new printer, if you have the right model Epson that is. I have an Epson model 640 that I bought for $100-$140 a few years ago. I can buy generic cartridges from SimplyBargins.com for a few dollars. A generic black cartridge costs $1.85 and a generic color cartridge costs $4.10. I've used many of them and had no problems. It pays to check the cost of consumables before you buy a printer!
The concept is the same as razor blades concept of Gilette. Give the handles away but make them pay through the noise for the replacements.
Its been this way since day one. If you check, the markup on printers is almost next to nothing.
The wide format color printers Graftech, Roland, HP etc use seperate refillable ink tanks. Just empty boddle of ink in like the old xrox copiers. The really big electrostatic jobs around 1/2 to 2 million dollar size use direct pickup from gallon cans of paint.
If you want to freek, add up the cost per page for the Epson C80. Sheeck! The black cart is 30 dollars and the other three total are about 36 dollars. It pop up at 10 cents a sheet using the 5% figures they have.
For giggle try this. Tiger Direct had a sale of by three cart get referb printer for free a few weeks ago!
I am wondering when the trully disposable printer will pop up. All the drive would be from the host computer. We are near that on some of these printers.
I have an Epson Stylus Color 800 printer and am surprised at the high cost of replacement ink cartridges. There's no printhead in the cartridge or a chip. I have started buying non-OEM print cartridges and have found that often the quality is at least as good and in some cases much better than the original Epson cartridges. Not to mention that the alternatives are often a fraction the price.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
I went to google and typed in "ink jet cartridge"
The first site under "sponsored links" was:
www.inksell.com
Clicked on the link, typed in the color printer (that my wife demanded we buy), (Epson Stylus Photo 820)
Result:
Epson Compatible ink cartridge, New, With Chip, your choice of Color or Black, $16
I recently bought an Epson Stylus Photo 820 printer, because it was top-rated for the price at printing photos - mainly due to the fact that it uses a 6 color ink system.
I hoped that this time around, I'd at least be able to buy 3rd. party ink cartridges and get decent performance. (My last inkjet was a Stylus Photo 700, and every time I used anything other than real Epson ink, it would clog up after 2 or 3 pages were printed - and nothing would unclog it again, short of putting new Epson cartridges in and running it through 14 or 15 cleaning cycles.)
My first experience with ink carts. off eBay was dismal though. The colors just wouldn't print uniformily. Every time I printed a test pattern, one color would be missing completely or streaked up. Sure enough, putting in a real Epson cartridge made it start working again.
I think with these high DPI Epson printers, Epson must be putting some type of thinner or solvent in their ink that nobody else is using. Everything else seems to clog up their nozzles real fast. Quite frustrating.....
From personal experience, refills only work well for inkjets because of how inkjets work. For laser printers, it usually ends up in leaking toner, which end up messing up the rollers. In the end, you end up messing up your expensive network laser printer to save a couple dollars. Refills don't always make sense.
how hard it is to get a "regular", ie, dot matrix printer, anymore? i mean, if you want photo quality that's great, go hard...but for those of us who just want to print out a homework assignment, or cards, or mabye even some ASCII art or something and cant really afford the 200$ ink cartridges:...there used to be cheap ink & printers...relatively cheap anyways...but now they dont sell you anything but the ub3rexpensive inkjets/photo quality. i dont see how people need this kind of quality...yes its nice to have the quality, but for the money you pay it may not be worth it : BRING BACK THE DOT MATRIX!
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
"I can't bitch at Epson too much - when it broke it was replaced the next day - with no questions asked about the obviously-refilled carts."
Nope,but I had a bitching time referbing that unit.
Thanks a lot!
So if you know you're not going to be using it for awhile. Take the cartridges out, problem solved.
"with that being said, inkjet and bubblejet printer makers are involved in a cut throat environment, which causes them to sell printers for less than cost. Money is made up from the ink you buy. You didn't think you could get bubble jet or piezo technology for that cheap, did you?"
1-It's not as expensive as you think.
2-We make money off ink AND the paper.
I've got an old HP 672C that basically refuses to die... It uses an older cart that is readily available from Pelikan and other 3rd parties that keeps it going cheaply.
;)
;)
But, I never really use it for anything serious, just printing out some docs, FAQ's etc, and the occasional shot of Britney
I wouldn't even think of replacing it until the thing dies. When it does go, I'd more than likely go with another HP. Or possibly one of the Okidata LED's.
I wish I could afford a HP LaserJet 4500C for home use though
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
"A tiny spring had come off the hook on the feed cam. Five minutes later, and it was as good as new."
A more common problem than you think. The clutch spring on some of the newer printers is the same way.
A trick I've used is to wet a towel with rubbing alchool or windex and to let the printhead rest on it a few hours, this seems to soften the dried ink. Then, run 2-3 cleaning cycle and it should have saved your day :-)
Just realize that you are giving up convenience and quality when you refill ink cartridges. Printer manufacturers must think that people don't realize this and have to force a decision for their own inks through weird licensing and warranty policies.
I've been using refill kits with the ink cartridges for my HP 855Cse for several years now. They seem to work quite well for the black ink unit; I've never tried to refill the color unit, though, and that bad boy is expensive!
Each cartridge can be refilled at least twice. After that, the jets get kind of mucked up and it's not really worth trying to clean them.
A good tip is to print in the medium print quality mode on good-quality inkjet-grade paper; you save some ink and the image is pretty crisp. Strangely enough, the all-purpose laser/ink-jet paper at Office Depot (used to come in a pink/magenta package.. not sure about this now) is *really* good, at least with my little printer.
Another tip is that paper usually has a shiny side and a dull side. It's kinda subtle, but you should be able to tell the difference. The shiny side is the side you want to print on for clear text, etc.
Good luck!
And Epson bought itself a cheap reputation.
"But then it gets back to the question of why the printer manufacturers would object if the printer got busted and leaked all over everything, since it's the customer's fault for "tampering" with the standard operation of the printer."
Sounds like someone doesn't understand human nature.
More likely is the customer calls the company up and complains about "what a piece of crap" you've sold them. They totally ignore their involvement in the matter unless you press them about it. Then they act all outraged both about why you can't resolve the issue they caused and the fact that you had to cancel their warrenty. People are just *spoiled*.
(However, I would never, ever, under any circumstances, use an inkjet as a primary printer. Try to find a cheap used laser printer. I've been using an Epson ActionLaser 1500 for pretty much all my life, it's served me extremely well. The printer claims it's printed 9600 pages, and I'm not sure it hasn't reset. I would never, ever deal with the noise, lack of speed, and cost of printing homework and so forth on an inkjet, and nobody else should either. Inkjet text looks nasty awful, anyway. Laser prints look muuuch nicer.)
Why do all that. I've seen 3rd party cartridges that already have the chip built-in.
I believe the printer companies sell their printers at close-to-the-bone or loss prices, and I don't like their attitude to me putting whatever refill I like in the printer I've bought. How can I make my displeasure known? Hmmm...
If I just throw out the whole printer once the cartridges are empty, that only costs me $40 more than buying new cartridges. Because the printer manufacturer is using the printer almost as a loss leader, if I buy a printer with cartridges, I have now got A) a spare printer (or a printer I can just throw away) and B) if everyone does it, maybe manufacturers of those cheap printers will hurt, and realise that people don't WANT to be screwed for printer supplies.
I realise there's a bit of an ecological burden involved in throwing away a printer every three months, but there's the beauty of the thing, I can actually sell the printer to Cash Converters or a salvage firm and recoup that $40 gap as well...
Bewdiful!
-- ted russ http://www.arach.net.au/~ted/mydynes/ http://www.arach.net.au/~ted/myblogs/
Many printer drivers use more ink than is necessary for satisfactory printing. My company has just introduced a new product that allows you to control the amount of ink you use to print. "Using patent pending software algorithms, InkSaver optimizes printer data so that your printer uses less ink - even when printing at your inkjet's highest resolution." See our website at www.strydent.com.
which has just given me a great idea for that Interplak that's been gathering dust!
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Mobile-1 makes the best damn oil filter around. AC-Delco Ultraguard Gold is awesome as well. Though they are both the same filter, (champion labs)...
Better then almost every OEM filter. Though I will admit, most other oil filters are pretty crappy. Like fram... Check out this
What is the big deal? I've been on to these supply cost gorging jerks for quite some time now...starting with the LaserJet II or so. Don't play the game, and they will have to redo the Biz Plan.
db
Cig:
ôô
I work retail, so I hear people complaining all the damned time about the cost of ink refills. Here's an easy way to figure it out: The cheaper the printer, the more expensive the cartridge. Simple as that.
Go buy a cheapie Lexmark z23 and marvel at the ~$33 cost for the black ink. Now buy an HP 900-series, and notice how the price drops to ~$30. Now buy their D135 all-in-one unit and (HOLY SHIT!) the price for the black is $22. Is anyone else surprised, because I'm not.
Is it an honest way to do business? That depends on your perspective. I always try to show a customer the fact that the $20 they're saving here is going right out the window when they replace the ink for the first time.
I have a laser that I use for 95% of my printing. You can snag a good quality home-oriented laser in the $250 range if you shop it. I have a couple of old color units that I use if I NEED color. I might pick up one of the photo-type units if for some reason the SO decided she wanted more of the digital pics printed out. Under no circumstances would I ever try to print the volume of papers that I routinely print (I'm an english major... typical Sunday evening has about 50 pages worth of printing in its future) on an inket. You wouldn't try to run a DNS on a Win95 box, and you wouldn't try to go off-road in your Cavalier, so why do so many people insist on using an el-cheapo inkjet for a job that a laser is so much better suited (and cheaper) for.
So are we complaining when the free cell phone requires a two-year contract? Two cliches come to mind: "Pay me now or pay me later", and "you get what you pay for".
Canon has spouted that same line about print quality since their first inkjets came out, long before there was any such thing as a high-resolution inkjet printer.
I had a BJ200, which I used enough that the moving parts finally wore out. I found that contrary to Canon's claims, the better cartridges could be refilled indefinitely (not all carts were exactly alike in quality; there were four carts that fit this printer, and the one labeled for their fax unit was best). I've refilled some as many as *8* times, and only lost carts at that point because I accidentally bumped the printhead and damaged it.
The trick is to keep the printhead clean -- swish it thru denatured alcohol every time you refill it, and make sure you keep the track area clean and free of dust. Use a high quality refill ink, like Fillmore brand (which is considerably better ink than Canon's original ink, at about 5% the cost). Don't overfill the cart -- half-full works better in many cases. If it gets cranky, next time it's empty run a little alcohol thru the cart itself, and print a few demo pages to let it clean out the printhead from the inside, then do the regular refill. (I've even resurrected "dead" dried-out carts that way -- turned out good as new.)
With proper care, inkjet printheads provide the same print quality throughout their lifetime, which is a helluva lot longer than the time it takes to use up that first ink resevoir.
Note: I've seem similar results with high-resolution HP and Epson inkjet refills, but my hands-on experience was with Canon.
And thanks for the heads-up on the newer HP units -- personally, I wouldn't buy an inkjet that rejects being refilled. At some 25 cents per page to print with "original" ink, inkjets cost too damn much to run. (Compare to about 5 cents/page for laser printers, and barely above cost of paper for pin impact.)
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I used a Roland wide format printer and an Epson 3000, both of which took physically the same ink cartridge. The boss ordered cheap refills to save money (the 200ml Roland cartridges were $250 each).
Next thing you know, the Epson can't print very good quality anymore, and neither can the Roland. We ended up having to replace three heads and an ink line (cracked open, ink everywhere) on the Roland for over $2,000 apparently because of the bad chemical composition of the cheap ink and that it dries too fast.
The Roland's been on good quality ink for a couple years now with no problems at all, but I think the Epson's trashed.
These are worth the reading:
- The great printer Scam
- Understanding, Reversing, and Hacking HP Printers
Enjoy!
freddo
See also Understanding, Reversing, and Hacking HP Printers for more information about manufacturers traps for consumers.
hp-300(310) and hp-500 series had cartridges that were easy to fill with a bottle and a hollow needle, haven't seen those packs for sale for a while tho(guess why).
the cost? the refill package cost like 5 bucks.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
If you don't like buying a printer for 80$ with refills for 50$, don't buy it. Go look for a printer for 200$ compatible with 25$ refills. Nobody's pushing you, dude!
1-It's not as expensive as you think.
2-We make money off ink AND the paper.
1 - it is more expensive than 35$ to build a printer
2 - the money we make off ink is probably 4:1 in relation to paper.
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
Yeah, but I've used a dozen or so Kyocera printers. If you ever get TO 100,000 pages (heck 30,000 for that matter), I'd be amazed. Pieces of shite.
Sleep is just a poor substitute for caffeine, anyway. -Bob Lehmann
Either I didn't see them myself, or they weren't much cheaper than the Epson ones. Inkjet cartridges run out quite often, so there's good reason to keep your per-cartridge cost as low as possible.
General-Purpose Inkjet Printers in Review
Inkjet printers by the four leading manufacturers jockey for position in the $100-$300 range. They offer some attractive features, such as 20 pages per minute printing, separate cartridges, six colors and resolutions over 2400 dpi. Read on to find out the extensive results from over 20 tests, including quality, speed, cost per page and all the rest.
Canon Photo Printers: S900 and S9000
Canon 2002 is turning out to be even more aggressive than usual! The old S800 series has been replaced by six new printers. Two of these really stand out: the S900 and the S9000. The new series of printers still uses six cartridges, but the number of nozzles has doubled and there is a new border-free printing function. In order to be as thorough as possible, we not only compared them to the S800, but also to their rivals from Epson and HP. The following tests look at speed, quality and photo costs, in detail.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
I'm really pissed at this "consumerism" drive and manufacturers who've learned how to use technology to limit users choices. I think what is needed is a law that says printer makers have to guarantee their product for a minimum of five years and forbid them from screwing their customers by milking them with ink cost!
--It makes you wonder if their is a reason wHY teCHNology isn't making things less expensive; ie; current law allows for exploitation and to top it off, lawmakers are thrilled that there is a price barier for the publishing industry; ie..high consumer publishing cost. Hmm, I wonder if the large publishing houses own a boatload of printing manufactures stock? Kind of like how auto manfacturers are loaded with oil stock?
I can't find the information on the website. Care to give a more direct pointer?
Sure, I posted the home page for the supplier as I didn't want to be single printer specific. However the instructions for the HP printers is here. http://www.atlascopy.com/_inkjet/000001ae.htm
It includes all the revelant codes to do the service mode printouts including the print cartridge serial numbers and estimated ink levels. No PC required to access this information. It prints hardcopy.
Info for other printers is also given. It's a goldmine of useful information regarding refilling. I recommend spending time reading to pick up all the tips and tricks.
The truth shall set you free!
I heard about this application that was recently released called InkSaver (http://www.inksaver.com) that lets you set ink reduction for your print jobs. Apparently you can set it to save 25-75% color and/or black ink, and it will print with reduced ink but will not compromise quality that much (it's apparently way better than draft mode). Has anybody used this yet?
Search the net, resetters for $30.
The cartridge chip contains a serial number. There is no sensor on ink level. The printer keeps track of the amount of use of each nozzle. When a cartridge has had so much use, the printer assumes it is empty. The printer refuses to use the cartridge only because it remembers it by serial number. If that same cartridge were put in another printer, the printer will recognise it as a new full cartridge whether it has been filled or not. The service mode of the 900 series printers will print out the serial numbers of the current cartridges along with nozzle counts and estimated ink levels AND the serial numbers of the previous set of cartridges.
The truth shall set you free!